The British edition analyzed the "cold war" in the semiconductor industry

Recently, the global semiconductor industry is facing serious problems. This is written by the British edition of Verdict. According to the author of the publication, there is already a shortage of chips and advanced microprocessors in the world. The trend towards economic nationalism was strengthened during the coronavirus pandemic and has reached its maximum now, against the backdrop of events in Ukraine. Now countries do not want to share either advanced technologies or new microprocessors and microcircuits. The publication calls it a "cold war" in the semiconductor industry.

At the same time, the semiconductor industry is seeing increased competition between the US and China. Now the Celestial Empire is rapidly breaking into a leading position in the field of artificial intelligence, which implies success in the semiconductor industry. The US is trying to resist this process and impose restrictions on the sale of chips to China, while supporting Taiwan.

For example, on October 7, the US announced a new set of restrictions on the sale of chips used for artificial intelligence. This led to a fall in the shares of chipmakers NVIDIA and AMD. Thus, we see that competition in the industry is only growing, and governments are trying to introduce restrictive measures to prevent technology leakage.

Separately, it is worth noting the influence of geopolitical alignments on the semiconductor industry. Thus, Taiwan still plays a key role in the production of semiconductors. The risk of a Chinese attack on the island is very scary for the United States, because then supply chains of semiconductors for the needs of American industry could be disrupted. Now Taiwan produces 92% of advanced chips.

On the other hand, China is also experiencing serious inconvenience, since US restrictions prevent the full development of the semiconductor industry in Beijing. The European Union is trying to increase its own production, for which the EU recently passed a law on chips, which aims to regulate the production of semiconductors.

Thanks to paternalistic measures in the economy, chipmakers are scaling up their production in the EU and the US. For example, back in March 2021, Intel announced investments of up to 80 billion euros in the European Union over the next 10 years. True, at that time the European Union did not yet have exorbitant inflation and high energy prices. It was about investments in scientific and technical research and production. In addition, the company plans to open new facilities in the US, namely in the state of Arizona, where it plans to launch two plants.

Smaller players in the market are also opening new enterprises, for example, the Dutch company STMicroelectronics, which is going to invest 730 million euros in the construction of a plant for the production of materials for microcircuits in Italy. Now construction is also under question, primarily because of the high cost of energy.

Moreover, geopolitical risks remain too significant an obstacle to the full development of the semiconductor industry. But there are no trends to change the situation. Rather, competition and rivalry in this area will only increase.

Comments

[dmi.pris1]

This only concerns us in only one thing .. "Made in Russia".

[Nyrobsky]

Quote: dmi.pris

This only concerns us in only one thing .. "Made in Russia".

But not only. Kkk they wouldn't have to write - "Can't be done without Russia."
Russia can easily bring down the production of semiconductors around the world by stopping the supply of inert gas neon and palladium. 90% of the produced gas used in the production of semiconductors is produced in Russia.
Here is more
https://hi-news.ru/hardware/kak-rossiya-mozhet-ostanovit-proizvodstvo-processorov-vo-vsem-mire.html
In addition, Russia produces 80% of sapphire substrates on the world market for silicon wafers used in microchip production.
Read more here.
https://dzen.ru/media/sferalive/vyiasnilos-chto-rossiia-proizvodit-80-sapfirovyh-podlojek-dlia-kremnievyh-plastin-na-chto-nadeetsia-taivanskii-tsmc-6237650560d2e66b91b8cb1f

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Quote: Nyrobsky

But not only. Kkk they wouldn't have to write - "Can't be done without Russia."
Russia can easily bring down the production of semiconductors around the world by stopping the supply of inert gas neon and palladium. 90% of the produced gas used in the production of semiconductors is produced in Russia.

And this is nothing that the article does not say a word about Russia. From the word at all. To develop new deposits for them is a trifling matter. And for us to master the production of semiconductors at the world level? China has come close to the leader in 30 years. And if we count with Taiwan, then it is already the leader. And we have not been able to find the bottom for 30 years.

[Nyrobsky]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

And this is nothing that the article does not say a word about Russia. From the word at all.

Is it nothing that in my case I was responding to a comment from a colleague on the forum? And how would it happen that, in terms of meaning and content, my comment relates to the topic of the article, where, in general, is it written about the production of semiconductors? Or did I write about potatoes and railway cars somewhere here? So why not mention in the topic about semiconductors the information that Russia has far from the last role in the semiconductor market?
Or are you simply "professionally" jarring from the fact that something depends on Russia and you are aimed only at once again emphasizing the inferiority of Russia?

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Quote: Nyrobsky

Is it nothing that in my case I was responding to a comment from a colleague on the forum?

So what?

Quote: Nyrobsky

And how would it happen that, in terms of meaning and content, my comment relates to the topic of the article, where, in general, is it written about the production of semiconductors?

I confirm.

Quote: Nyrobsky

Or did I write about potatoes and railway cars somewhere here?

They didn't write. Yes, and I did not write.

Quote: Nyrobsky

So why not mention in the topic about semiconductors the information that Russia has far from the last role in the semiconductor market?

Yes, any number.

Quote: Nyrobsky

Or are you simply "professionally" jarring from the fact that something depends on Russia and you are aimed only at once again emphasizing the inferiority of Russia?

"Professional" warps - how is it? By profession, I am an engineer. Why should I be offended by the fact that Russia supplies raw materials to the world market? Delivers and delivers. Almost all countries supply what they can. I am not interested in emphasizing the inferiority of Russia. I was born here and have lived my life here. I don’t go under myself in order to “emphasize the inferiority” of Russia. Here you spilled something of your innermost. I just mentioned that in 30 years you can .... all polymers, or you can become world leaders, like the USSR once was. But in order to become a leader, you need to work, and not blackmail others that you will cut off their oxygen. Work and blackmail - what says more about inferiority?

[SavranP]

Red-blue? What 30 years, ten years of the drunk Yeltsin with the fat-faced Gaidar, when everything and everything collapsed and sold, do you also consider it as development? At most, the development of the industry of modern Russia began in the 10s, and in the 20s the West had already declared economic war. Well, we'll see. I don’t know what field you are an engineer in, but the above was about electronic microcircuits - I dare to assure you that Russian military equipment uses microcircuits of its own production.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Quote: SavranP

Red-blue? What 30 years, ten years of the drunk Yeltsin with the fat-faced Gaidar, when everything and everything collapsed and sold, do you also consider it as development?

vocabulary, however. "Say anything and I'll tell you who you are." Proverb. Anyway. What did you want to say? You did not even understand who 30 years of development belonged to. Definitely not to Russia.

Quote: SavranP

I don’t know what field you are an engineer in, but the above was about electronic microcircuits - I dare to assure you that Russian military equipment uses microcircuits of its own production.

If you don't know something, then chew it better. And your assurances are not worth a penny, because I know how things were in this industry until 2014. And do not confuse the design and development of microcircuits with their production, and even more so with the materials and components used.
In conclusion, let me ask: Brown?

[SavranP]

Do you know something about "Baguette", about "Salute"? Have you worked with the PKI Delimiter List? In the 90s there were "red-brown" - the national communists, as they were called by the then liberals. Now there is an association of liberals and communists. And how to call them?

[SavranP]

"Connoisseur" merged. Balabol, probably, if not worse. Perhaps one of those who fled overseas in the 90s, took the oath to the United States and now spoils the former homeland as best he can. Maybe CIPSO ... I wasted my time in vain.

[Beringovsky]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

China has come close to the leader in 30 years.

China produces only 6% of the chips in the world, and even those are not the most advanced, even the architecture is not their own. There is no equipment of its own, no OS, in general, China's success in this area is greatly exaggerated. Taiwan is not Chinese yet, and when it becomes Chinese, who knows.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Quote: Beringovsky

China produces only 6% of chips in the world

Откуда цифры? Как Вам такие: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/seismic-shifts-underway-in-global-semiconductor-market-as-us-accelerates-decoupling-from-china/#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20Taiwan%20(22%25),compared%20with%20the%20US's%2012%25.

In 2020, Taiwan (22%), South Korea (21%), Japan (15%) and China (15%) accounted for 73% of global semiconductor manufacturing, compared with the US's 12%.

The article discussed on VO retells the article in Verdict https://www.verdict.co.uk/us-bans-chip-firms-working-in-china-as-tech-war-heats-up/ And there is this line:

Some market watchers believe that the US has already lost the tech war against China.

Hmm! Somehow the British have information about China that differs from yours. Well, yes, of course, English scientists ...

[igork735]

Thanks for the links to the sources.

[smart fellow]

In general, China's success in this area is greatly exaggerated.

An internet search shows that all in all there is not a word of truth here or this information is 10 years old.

China produces only 6% of chips in the world

Only SMIC has a share of 11% of the global chip market, China - 15%.

not even the architecture

Chinese Loongson Technology has developed its own processor architecture Loongson Architecture (LoongArch), writes Tom's Hardware. The creators of the new architecture emphasize that it does not infringe any patents associated with existing ones such as x86, ARM, MIPS or RISC-V.

No own equipment

https://habr.com/ru/company/selectel/blog/550186/

no OS

https://is.gd/GM08X8

Taiwan is not Chinese yet, and when it becomes Chinese, who knows.

September 15, 2020, $1,4 trillion in 5 years. That is how much the country is going to invest in high technology until 2025.
The return of Taiwan to the PRC is a political issue.

[Brain_]

And for us to master the production of semiconductors at the world level?

To master the production of semiconductors with the required level of funding so that there is enough for household appliances, cars, etc. - Maybe.
Moreover, if you invest in production, then even all military needs can be covered, because the technology is there. If they had invested a little earlier, now the Russian Federation could already produce according to the 28-16-12 nm process technology.

But catching up with the advanced technologies that are used in the most advanced smartphones, processors and video cards is much more difficult.

The most difficult thing is the creation of lithographic equipment, because it is done only in two countries.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Quote from Brain

But catching up with the advanced technologies that are used in the most advanced smartphones, processors and video cards is much more difficult.

I agree. But our ancestors managed to go into space first. And the beaten path is easier to follow. Agree. But for this you have to go.

The cross near the main building of MEPhI is an eight-pointed cross, installed on March 2, 2010 on the lawn between the main building and the right entrance. It was built in preparation for the visit of Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Rus' to MEPhI on March 4, 2010.
The construction acquires special symbolism due to the fact that earlier for ten years a sculpture stood in the same place, which for several generations of mythists became one of the symbols of MEPhI - a traveler with a staff (also called the "eternal student", but jokingly, for similarity at a certain angle sight, - "Crushed Beetle"), at the foot of which the phrase "The road will be mastered by the walking one" was inscribed. This phrase was considered by many to be the MEPhI motto.
The cross at this place unequivocally symbolizes that the symbolic traveler never mastered his symbolic road, symbolically dying on the way to his symbolic goal. And the cross itself was ironically called the "Cross on Russian Science."

[Duncan]

Koreans easily import Japanese superpure gases. The factory is not big at all. The other day, the Taiwanese decided to produce pure neon at home. So that's it - we lose the market.
There was a very strong competition with sapphire substrates, they will take the vacant place at the moment.
In general, these are small markets, nothing compared to fuel.

[smart fellow]

In general, these are small markets.

Therefore, no one wants to invest in production that is not profitable for the scale of corporations, except for the Chinese, who create their own self-sufficient world where they are independent of the West and its sanctions.
According to analysts at the consulting company Techcet, the world consumption of neon for the semiconductor industry last year amounted to 540 tons. Ukraine, according to Techcet, supplied more than half of this volume to the market. It is easy to calculate that without these deliveries, chip manufacturers will receive less than 2022 tons in 270. Stocks are stocks, but they will melt and they will have to be replenished and, apparently, at the same time, they will overpay Chinese companies. During the first three weeks of the crisis, the cost of neon in China increased by almost 9 times, and this is clearly not the limit.

[vadimtt]

Stop carrying this nonsense from the yellow press. From Russia, no one in any way, from the word at all, does not depend. Russian neon without Ukrainian cleaning (and this is also not the final cleaning, by the way) is not needed. Sapphire substrates are from the 70s of electronics, they are needed in extremely rare products and scanty quantities. And palladium, this is mainly for catalysts in cars, the electronics industry consumes very little of it, enough palladium from Africa and the USA.

[Ulan.1812]

All this is of course interesting, the question is what are we doing in this direction.
I would like to see this in the article, otherwise some kind of incompleteness.
Perhaps the author left it for the next article.

[Alien From]

There was a series of articles on this topic at VO, I don’t remember who wrote it, but the meaning is the same - in this matter we have a colossal backlog

[Andriuha077]

TSMC is considered the world's largest contract manufacturer, and the abandonment of Russian projects has almost no effect on its income - Russia accounts for only 0,1% of global chip purchases.
As a possible alternative to TSMC, the Chinese SMIC (Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp) is often cited. But the US government has already promised to "destroy" this company if it helps in the production of Elbrus and Baikal.
However, not everything is as bad as it seems at first glance. Even the existing equipment in Zelenograd, with proper preparation, can work with a resolution of up to 22 nm, which will already allow the production of the same Baikals. True, the payback of such production will sharply decrease due to a decrease in the percentage of suitable products.
In addition, the Chinese company Shanghai Micro Electronic Equipment is already finishing the development of its own lithographs designed for 28-nm technological standards and, in theory, capable of working with a resolution of up to 7 nm. The start of their production is scheduled for next year, and after them the Chinese will release machines for 22-nm lithography.
Of course, this is only a distant prospect so far, and only inveterate optimists can say that 28-nm production will be established in Russia before 2025. But now the situation at least does not look so hopeless.
11.03.2022

Production can be transferred to the Mikron plant in Zelenograd. The Russian chipmaker lags behind TSMC in terms of mastered technical processes - it is not able to produce modern 16-nanometer Elbrus.
TSMC refused to cooperate with the MCST under anti-Russian sanctions and under pressure from the US authorities. She did the same with Baikal Electronics
May
- In the past, Russian facilities managed to master only the production of Elbrus-2SM (1891VM9Ya) - 2 cores @ 300 MHz
- They are somewhere in the filling of the S-400 and S-500, so there is a use.
- According to open sources, there is Elbrus90Micro, based on the MCST-R500 (sparks), which are (made) at the same TSMC.
- In general, Elbrus-4C, Micron, 65 nm, 4 cores x 800 MHz.
- All Elbrus-4Cs were produced by TSMC. Micron never mastered their production (the model was to be called Elbrus-4SM).
- they did it in Soviet times, but now they can’t ...
OBKhSS worked, people themselves worked, by today's standards for the idea, everything for the motherland, give space, we will live better.
There was a picture where there was a feeder, pigs, and one pig looks hopefully at a picture with a rocket taking off.
- In general, all these plans cause bewilderment. Even until 24.02.22/XNUMX/XNUMX, in much more greenhouse conditions, almost nothing was done. Although the equipment was sold to Russia.

May 10. The other day it became known that in Zelenograd they started building a factory, which, according to the plan, will produce processors according to the 28 nm process technology. This project has been developed for a long time, but its implementation has only just begun. Construction is scheduled to be completed by the end of 2024
- They can build everything for a long, long time (concrete, roads, landscaping), and then (many years later) say, "well, they didn't sell us machines, but we built everything else." By that time, either the donkey will die, or the donkey.
- If they put it under direct control (and this is likely, because such production was needed yesterday), then it’s not a fact.
— You can, of course, assume that there are channels for purchasing equipment.
- 15% of the country's annual budget to nowhere? I think rather that information is deliberately not shared so that the US / EU does not find opposition.
Why nowhere? The money will not evaporate, but simply change the owner.

[Urs]

Here I support, it’s not bad so everything is analyzed , only a correction, everything smaller than 28 nM is all chatter, 16 nan is only in development, but so far everything has stopped because of us, more precisely because of our silicon. 9 nan is only in dreams and on paper, there are some solutions BUT BUT BUT, berylium substrate and wax-clean silicon as well as our gas precision chem. cleaning. That's something like this, but you can write anything. Nobody can check it

[Andriuha077]

28 nM

Oh yeah. 31:00 Geometry of transistors
- 28nm, but this is not the size of the transistor itself, but let's untie it altogether
- Everything was simple in 90nm, here it is the size

[stelltok]

only correction, everything smaller than 28 nm is all chatter

Not true. Even 1 nm more fit transistors than tech 16 nm.
TSMC already wants to master 2035 nm by 0,1. Once again 0,1 nm.

16 nan only in development but so far everything has stopped

Not true. Prots Elbrus is also 16 nm. And Baikal even (I can be mistaken) like 7 nm designed.

[Duncan]

These 0,1 nm are several times smaller than the size of an atom and are physically impossible. We are talking about the density of transistors, which will continue to grow mainly due to vertical placement, and this density will be converted into marketing nanometers.

[stelltok]

So that's what I'm talking about. Placement density.
so 0,1nm density is better than 16nm

[Urs]

In general, the size of connecting conductors and layers of insulating materials is measured in these nans. Now I can’t say for sure, but the minimum dimensions of a silicon transistor have been achieved quite a long time, but the battle for vertical integration is just going on in the fields of the sizes of layers of conductors and insulators.

[Duncan]

The minimum size of the transistor has also not yet been reached. It also becomes more complicated vertically, first the shutter, then they will get to other parts.

[Urs]

A simple marketing ploy. The electronics industry does not have printers smaller than 22 nanometers. Anything less is all experimental work on piece exclusive machines. I believe the expression "we made VIS using 16 nanometer technology" is true only when it is possible to make a batch without a large percentage of defects at least 1000 pieces, and in some cases 100000 pieces.
Yes, and as I said above, you can say anything, but who will check.

[Custodian]

Because of what else "our" silicon?
The new "nm" indicates the packing density of the transistors. Therefore, there are 16 times more transistors in the 2nm chatter than in 28nm.

[Ulan.1812]

In detail. Basically I got the answer she had my question.
Thank you.

[filibuster]

However, not everything is as bad as it seems at first glance. Even the existing equipment in Zelenograd, with proper preparation, can work with a resolution of up to 22 nm, which will already allow the production of the same Baikals.

At Micron, 65 nm would be mastered now, it’s not even a fact that by the end of the year it will be possible to establish 90 nm (the government set the task to launch 90 nm by the end of the year in the spring), all the same, the entire technical process is now going on wafers with a diameter of 200 mm. For 65 nm, you need to switch to 300 mm wafers, in fact, build a new plant.

[Alexey Lantukh]

What about 32 nm? They mastered 65 nm back in the USSR and what did they lose? At least in the early 90s I had a computer from the Kursk schetmash plant with a 086 processor and a Russian DOS slightly worse than the American MS DOS4. And that nothing has been done since then?

[Duncan]

In Soviet times, 65 nm were scientific pop. fantasy. They got to them only in the middle of the XNUMXs.

[solar]

on Istra-4816 - an analogue of the XT of the Kursk plant - the K1810VM86 processor was used using 3 micron technology.
65 nm - much later.
2014 year

Yesterday, all domestic sites spread the news that in Russia Micron has developed a technology for the production of microcircuits according to 65nm standards

https://habr.com/ru/post/213373/

[smart fellow]

350 nm is a process technology that matches the level of technology achieved in 1995-97 by leading chip manufacturers such as Intel, IBM, and TSMC.
https://is.gd/t3Couf

[DENSG]

on Mikron, salaries are $500 and do not grow and there is no work, the main equipment is American from AppliedMaterials and LamResec, there are no spare parts and nowhere to get it, what a naivete to read the news, and there are no clean materials, expired photoresist is obtained through third parties, structural changes and strategic cladding are needed for years forward, there is nothing of this today, neither investments nor planning ahead

[solar]

There was an interesting series of articles on the development of computers for air defense and missile defense tasks.

[Alien From]

Exactly right It was very interesting to read, although for me it is a dense forest!)

[Duncan]

We left the game thirty years ago. The train went far, far away, our station was abandoned long ago and even the rails were dismantled.

[Saboteur_Navy]

In this area, I believe that Japan is still the leader, it has always been the leader after the war, its electronics are better

[Anachoret]

The innovative Japanese is not as amazing as fans of the “Japanese economic miracle” praise him)) read the real story of this post-war miracle, when clouds of suitcases of American money poured into the Japanese economy to make it a showcase of capitalism in the east and prevent Japan from falling under the influence USSR, and so that it does not become communist) now there has been no such problem for a long time and the Japanese economy has been stagnating for more than a decade) for obvious reasons)) but how else could it be?) The same will happen with the super-Popper-technological current leader in microworlds by Taiwan, as soon as its role in the confrontation with China is played out))

If you go to the sites of Japanese leaders related to the production of microelectronics and equipment for printing circuit boards and chips) you will find that Japan has not even fallen behind, but stopped the race in this direction 10-15 years ago) since the overlord said that there should be a division of the production profile by countries and Japan in the microelectronics profile has either the most initial or the latest stage) and chip factories operate on the technical processes of the above mentioned age)
Moreover, Nikon and Canon companies produce steppers, which are no longer applicable in the mobile industry at all due to the fundamental obsolescence of the technical processes for which they are designed)
To our regret, in Russia even these technical processes have not yet been mastered due to the fact that all sorts of Chubais were engaged in innovations) and now we have to do something about it)

[filibuster]

read the real story of this post-war miracle, when clouds of suitcases of American money poured into the Japanese economy to make it a showcase of capitalism in the east and prevent Japan from falling under the influence of the USSR, and so that it does not become communist)

Where to read about it?

If you go to the sites of Japanese leaders related to the production of microelectronics and equipment for printing circuit boards and chips) you will find that Japan has not even fallen behind, but stopped the race in this direction 10-15 years ago) since the overlord said that there should be a division of the production profile by countries and Japan in the microelectronics profile has either the most initial or the latest stage) and chip factories operate on the technical processes of the above mentioned age)

She has never been a clear leader in this area.

[evgen1221]

Not quite in the lead until Taiwan rebuilt production and until the states began to press the Japanese for patents on it fiercely. Since then, the Japanese have not shined. New developments are now only in the USA and China, and production in Taiwan, well, machines for everyone are Holland.

[Plover]

Not really. Taiwan is the manufacturer. Machines are supplied by ASML, Nikon and Canon. ASML is an American-European brainchild. There are a couple more leaders: INTEL, Samsung. They have their own technologies for the production of lithographic equipment

[Duncan]

Japan finally lagged behind 10 years ago. It produces good robots, machine tools and production lines, very high quality materials and consumables. But there is nothing and no one to make a processor for an iPhone or Xiaomi.

[yuriy55]

It seems that Russia has slipped to the margins of world civilization ... If it were not for Medvedev, then we would not have known that we have our own “analogue in the world”.

[Alien From]

This is a respected Yuri55, unfortunately, a fact that has already happened, and the farther, the deeper the ass

[solar]

What does France do there besides cheese?

Are you kidding? France is full of high-tech industries, both electronic products, military, and the world's best reactors for nuclear power plants with deep regulation of productivity, which allows the French to provide 70% of the electricity generation at nuclear power plants, which no other country in the world can.

[stelltok]

How many processors did France make. I know Intel AMD. (But they are not French)
How much did France make a graphics card chip? Nvidia/AMD does not belong to FR.
What about software? What did France do?
Well RF has Kaspersky/Dr Web/ Nginx/Yandex/PostgreSQL/Askon/ClickHouse/Digital Combat Simulator/...
What's in France?

[filibuster]

Well RF has Kaspersky/Dr Web/ Nginx/Yandex/PostgreSQL/Askon/ClickHouse/Digital Combat Simulator/...

And when PostgreSQL became Russian, it started in Berkeley. ClickHouse is a purely niche product, Nginx is no longer Russian, but it is a web server written in C, in fact, by a former administrator of Rambler.
Yandex and Kaspersky are really two big IT companies, in France their level is whatever Alcatel (telecommunications), Dassault (SolidWorks is their product)

[Urs]

Ha, where are the objections to the first part of the statement stelltok (tokstell)
And after all, he is right, the Khryantsuzes do not have a purely electronic development of their own, they share it with them.

[solar]

what, you also think that if the processors do not, then only cheese, as you wrote above?
The French are full of high-tech production.

[Maxim G]

Processors in France are made - military and for space.
Yes, and it is enough to remember, if we are talking about radio electronics, that the equipment for Russian tanks - thermal imagers was purchased in France, and produced under license in the Russian Federation.

And cooperation with France was wider, not only Mistrals, but also the Atom infantry fighting vehicle based on the French VBCI, French engines for the Ka-226, armored cars.

[solar]

STMicroelectronics factories, for example.
The French are full of electronics manufacturers.
But for some, at the word "electronics" a new super-sophisticated tablet or smartphone is drawn in their heads, the thought does not go further.

[Maxim G]

This g ... you can now buy at any corner))).

And the French do not seem to be exchanging small things.
Although there were not bad Alcatel telephones before.
I have one at home, with the JEANS tariff from MTS.

[Urs]

Dear, they do (read produce) they don’t develop it, well, as if they are completely different things. And yes, they bought some electronic equipment, and even aircraft engines, and so on. The Americans also buy a lot of things for their weapons from us, too, and even now in silence.
This says only one thing, the integration of many technologically advanced countries into the world technological process is very high.
The loss of one link in this chain has a painful effect on all members of this chain. Something is done very well by one and something by another, and in place this is world technological progress.
It takes time and a lot of money to restore a dropped player from the technological chain. The world is not ready for this yet.

[Maxim G]

The processors themselves are developed and produced in France.

[Urs]

Facts of fire links to processors developed by France + Germany + EU. Allegations are not accepted

[Maxim G]

https://www.st.com/

Quote: Urs

Facts fire links

[stelltok]

Khryantsuz have no purely electronic development of their own

There in the EU, in general, email. there is almost no development. Only England does a little bit of software. Everything. The rest are bad.
German auto companies use foreign technologies (Japanese KUKA robots / etc ....) to make their Mercedes / Audi.

[Reklastik]

What about software? What did France do?

- well, at least read about Dassault Systems, or something, before you say that. And they don't just deal with software. Taking into account economic ties and the division of labor of Western countries, it makes no sense to talk about French, German or Polish processors - there are American and English ones. But the microcircuits are still made by the same STM. Yes, this is not France, this is Europe, but what's the difference? They are friendly to each other within Europe.

[antivirus]

Honey is a very tricky thing..
There he is, and then he's gone...
In vain we threw away tube TVs - both the TVs themselves and the lamps with circuit boards would be useful now.
They didn’t manage to make new ones in the Russian Federation.

[Starover_Z]

Quote: antivirus

In vain we threw away tube TVs - both the TVs themselves and the lamps with circuit boards would be useful now.
They didn’t manage to make new ones in the Russian Federation.

Towards the end of the Union, developments were ready, and there were factories. In the 90s, I came across the "Horizon" scheme with the "Frame in Frame" function. And after all, TVs were produced and I think not only "Horizons"! But where is all this, who fucked up? Not workers from those factories, but bureaucrats infected with the "Golden Calf" of the 80s, who wanted a lot of money at once, but it won't work out of production, no matter how cool. And they didn’t want to spin for everyone, but the hard workers could not ...

[Dron_sk]

They were spoiled by integration into the open market and competition. Isn't it clear. All these TVs were not competitive compared to Japanese ones. After the collapse of the USSR, Russia began to integrate into the world trading system, opened its own market, goods from abroad poured in to us, and many Russian production facilities closed, unable to withstand competition with foreign goods, because the state did not care - it did not begin to support domestic producers in the new conditions of fierce competition with foreign goods, no duties on foreign goods, no subsidies and preferences for domestic producers. The Russian reformers of the 90s were stupid and inexperienced, and many of them were also corrupt. In addition, the process of privatization was going on there in parallel, and rampant banditry, many specialists left the country, bandits broke through to control many industries, only money was important to them and nothing more, where they could not make the enterprise work in plus, they simply sold everything what they could.

[opuonmed]

when will Elbrus be producing 8sv and 16sv in the Russian Federation?

[vadimtt]

Everything is simple - never. By the time the necessary standards are mastered, these processors will be very outdated.

[Urs]

Come on, never just because there will be no need for it. Yes, and those. processes 8 and 16 nan in the world are not yet in industrial use. And it is too early to bury Russia as a high-tech power, so your sarcasm is not appropriate.

[vadimtt]

There is nothing to bury in thin semiconductors, it was not born there. But in other areas, it is still unknown how the sanctions curve and the subsequent outcast will take them out.
For example, the international database of chemical reactions (the daughter of a chemist-student said, but I don’t remember the name) is closed to Russians. It seems like garbage, but the quality of education reduces. Reagents of clean and normal laboratory glassware (MERCK), even at Moscow State University, are no longer found - they are not supplied. And so on trifles but everywhere. The outlook is not bright.
And you're talking about sarcasm, which I replaced with stronger expressions.

[Urs]

Here's another reason to mourn
Mikron is preparing to launch mass production of a domestic RISC-V microcontroller. Take a third of the Russian market with it, and then even export it.
And this, judging by the mass and overall characteristics, will be produced using the 65 nan process.

[vadimtt]

Will be? Well, someday, when civilization unites, of course it will.
Is RISC V more domestic than VLIW? Strange, MCST vs.

[rocket757]

geopolitical risks remain too significant an obstacle to the full development of the semiconductor industry. But there are no trends to change the situation. Rather, competition and rivalry in this area will only increase.

. An attempt at a global division of labor in the field of microelectronics, the production of tools / equipment for the production of the newest electronics !!! that's what it led to!
Now you have to try to do, though, the most necessary BY YOURSELF!!!
So it was clear for a long time that everyone would come to this and definitely !!! But it only came to some of them through .... a certain place, when a roasted rooster pecked there!

[filibuster]

Now you have to try to do, though, the most necessary BY YOURSELF!!!

But this is beyond the power of anyone, not even the United States. And the only way out is to develop technology so that the world would be dependent in some part and could not just refuse.

[rocket757]

What minke whales cannot do, others will do. Moreover, they can do everything themselves, or they can maintain some cooperation with other, reliable partners/suppliers.
By the way, minke whales can also do this, the problem, if this is considered a problem, is only in the costs of production, the development of a scientific base, and further, for "little things" ... nothing more.

[Plover]

Western countries are essentially one economic organism. Therefore, in their version, it is not scary to distribute production geographically. The risks here are exclusively logistical, not political. At least until today.

[rocket757]

International cooperation is not suitable for everyone, now it should be clear to everyone ... they felt it in their own skin.
By the way, minke whales also do not want to take risks and have created the production of chips at home, count. They will fix it and launch it ... by the way, the Chinese and Koreans are doing the same!
This is a no-brainer!

[Plover]

International cooperation should be between countries where there are no political "graters" so that only the economy decides. The United States fidgeted because of Taiwan - if there is a mess there, then it will not seem enough to everyone. That is why Western countries are now deploying production in different geography, in addition to the United States, construction is also meant in Europe and Japan (South Korea already has technologies and capacities). Those. in the event of some cataclysms, there will be countries that will still be able to produce the necessary semiconductors. The situation is worse for the Chinese - although China is large, it is still significantly inferior to the aggregate market of Western countries (this includes Japan with South Korea, Australia and New Zealand) both in size and quality. This means that there will be many times less opportunities for development in case of isolation.

[rocket757]

Quote: Plover

This means that there will be many times less opportunities for development in case of isolation.

At the expense of isolation ... it will be possible to return to this topic in a year, another, but for now it all looks like fairy tales, horror stories.
Who will develop dynamic and efficient, we will also see this after a while ...
I personally put on developing countries on a par with the striped.
Geyropa ... most likely will remain in the well. They strive so stubbornly for this, it’s just amazing.
In general, we will see.

[Plover]

To develop, you need to take capital and technology from somewhere. At the moment there are 1.5 such sources - Western countries and China. China is not fully, the poet 0.5. In the next 5-10 years, China will either become another "center of power", then it will be able to offer an alternative to the West, or it will come to naught, because. still dependent in critical areas (semiconductors and software) on the West, despite the billions of funds spent.

[rocket757]

At the moment

Who can say that he knows everything, understands everything? No, no, far from everything is shown / told to us ...
Worth the wait and see.

[Vlodek]

Well ... judging by the situation with the elections, I would not bet on the striped ones. that look at them the second civil will begin. they will not be up to nanoprocessors

[rocket757]

We see what they show us... and what happens behind the curtain, one can only guess.
If you think about it, remember ... the striped ones got out of various cataclysms, most likely they will go through this one too ... it is not necessary that there will be a "cleansing fire", maybe a new Roosevelt will appear and .... further, as written.
In general, live in hope, sho AmeriGa everything, no, no, no!

[filibuster]

By the way, minke whales can also do this, the problem, if this is considered a problem, is only in the costs of production, the development of a scientific base, and further, for "little things" ... nothing more.

They could do it themselves, who in their right mind would take out strategic technologies that give the country an advantage for decades to come, to other countries, it’s just that the problem is to be the best in everything, it’s impossible to achieve, and if you try, you can easily overstrain and generally fall behind.

[rocket757]

Quote from: filibuster

They could have done it themselves, who in their right mind would endure

Do you know what's in the brains of their big business tycoons???
About babosy, no profit is needed, it's trite ... and what else ???
I don't know, that's why I'm not trying to call them what, then, c. including and crazy.
If we consider only the scientific, technological and industrial potential of America, then it turns out that they can do anything and better than many others, that's all.
Why they don’t do this is from the realm of fortune-telling, conjecture ...
By the way, they have already taken over the production of microprocessors, by their usual methods, of course ... that is, by robbing others. It's no longer a secret.

[filibuster]

Do you know what's in the brains of their big business tycoons???
About babosy, no profit is needed, it's trite ... and what else ???

That is how they put profit at the forefront, and not momentary, but in the long term, and that is why they have to go for such a division of labor, otherwise there will be a lag behind competitors and generally leaving the market or even the industry.

[rocket757]

So it can also be...
This is just the case that not only mass character, but also the concentration of scientific and other efforts in one place to solve specific problems, solves many problems, BUT, not always and not for everyone.

[Plover]

They have localized all the necessary technologies and production facilities for national security. If we talk about any transfers, then we are talking about consumer products.

[Urs]

Well, let's start. Everything is gone and other garbage about and the devil of a reason.
If we don’t talk about something at every step, then this does not mean at all that we don’t have it.
Here is someone who delved into the essence of what is happening in the world of electronics, except for articles on VO.
Who knows that our microelement is in 3rd place in the manufacture and development of solid state media , and where is the most mass production of silicon planar crystals, or high-transparency sapphire plates, and 30 percent of the world production of high-purity krypton and radon. And you probably don’t know that 80 percent of the world production of chemically pure radio isotopes is produced in our country. And by the way there are already quite a few enterprises that would like or are already trying to start developing high-integration semiconductors. The only thing left is the will of the state to support these undertakings with money, and it is. How the process is heating up.
And don't brand me "cheers patriot" I'm just in the subject in this area .
Less than a year has passed since all this mess, and therefore it is too early to draw conclusions, such as "everything is lost."

[filibuster]

And here are the "witnesses" of sapphire plates and chemically pure radio isotopes came to the light.

No offense, but what you have listed is exactly what the production of aluminum and titanium count as a significant contribution to the global aviation industry.

[Urs]

Of course, it won’t fly, because without a fairly cheap spongy titanium, the technology was developed by our specialists, the take-off of a Boeing will be so expensive that there will be no point in making it as a competitive product .
South Africa and Argentina also have this technology, and then at our suggestion, BUT again this is BUT, their cost is almost two and a half higher and the volumes are less. Ours is cheaper because our enterprises were loaded with orders for 10 years in advance and at 65 percent of VSMPO capacities thanks to Boeing and Airbus. A good argument for bargaining, you agree. We give you titanium, you give us printers for the manufacture of high-integration pp devices. Note not finished products, but what makes them. The same with fertilizers and at least even energy carriers., without which inflation in the EU, almost 8 percent.
And this is a rise in the cost of everything, R&D construction, energy supply and, as a result, an increase in the cost of the final product. And this is already a disaster

[filibuster]

Of course, it won’t fly, because without a fairly cheap spongy titanium, the technology was developed by our specialists, the take-off of a Boeing will be so expensive that there will be no point in making it as a competitive product

It will fly very quickly, and Russia does not block supplies, precisely because they will instantly lose the market.

[Urs]

Oh oh. So they bypassed our titan in sanctions in Europe, such as low, otherwise we’ll get up. Although it’s enough that not a single new airbus has taken off over the past half a year.
I won’t say no statistics about Boeing, the problem is that the Boeing Corp. has, it seems, 32 percent of the shares of VSMPO Avisma, and the sanctions somehow bypassed this company. How can you guess why..
Yes, as with gas, they probably refused, like, and so we will live and what we have , and we even have Gazprom, well, it didn’t die at all, but even thrives

[filibuster]

Oh oh. So they bypassed our titan in sanctions in Europe, such as low, otherwise we’ll get up. Although it’s enough that not a single new airbus has taken off over the past half a year.

Well, of course, they save money if there is an opportunity, but it would seem that Russia has a lever for counter-sanctions, but they don’t use something, because if you approach it soberly, it’s clear that they will quickly find an alternative.

[Plover]

What is the fundamental difference between the manufacturer of titanium, oil and other raw materials enterprises from the same tsmc? If you turn off the valve at the oil, stop shipping titanium - buyers will feel bad. But this is not a unique product, it can be replaced - Western countries have all the technologies, the question is in time. But microchips are a unique product and we do not have the competence to produce it. Well, the consequences of cutting off the supply of oil and titanium in the long run will hit us harder than Western countries.

[vadimtt]

Urs, you are either delusional or bad sarcasm

[Plover]

We have separate - and not the most critical - competencies in the field of semiconductors. Doubts that if we didn’t do anything under the most favorable conditions, will we do it under the conditions of sanctions and a ban on access to these very technologies. I am also a little in the subject, but in the business part. So - a used relatively old "semiconductor production line", which before the CBO they were happy to sell to us (ours were not bought - they were looking for even cheaper), now they don't even want to talk. They are afraid of secondary sanctions. Now we need to invent cunning and pay simply many times more. And again doubts - something is a little expensive ... Maybe we can look for cheaper?

[Bingo]

Yes, there's a joke in the fact that, for example, Scholz recently cut down China's investments in two German semiconductor companies, who suffered from this is a big question. And damn it, when Bloomberg wrote that it was in Europe that they pick out chips from washing machines ... And Bidon said. that Lochkid doesn’t have chips for the production of Jabelins ... But China doesn’t whine for something, so everything is interesting

[garik77]

Quote: Ulan.1812

All this is of course interesting, the question is what are we doing in this direction.
I would like to see this in the article, otherwise some kind of incompleteness.
Perhaps the author left it for the next article.

Stuck on the 65nm process technology. This is a lag of 15 years. For some needs, this is quite enough, but to produce full-fledged processors for laptops, phones, servers, etc. we cannot use our equipment and there are no prospects for solving the problem yet. Photolithography in the world is monopolized by the Dutch, where a couple of companies produce special equipment, the rest use their services.

[Plover]

Canon and Nikon can also, though not the top tech. process, but still. INTEL and Samsung do it too, but it's inhouse, just for themselves.

[vadimtt]

I'll fix it a little. Stuck at 180nm, problems with 90, 65 did not take off at all, the AMD line from Dresden is in an incomprehensible state (most likely torn).

[Plover]

Here you can read minds. I also think it's sad. Yes, even if everything is in stock, as far as I know, there are storage conditions that must be observed. And after such a long storage, a lot needs to be changed - and where to find specialists? After all, there was no training in the work of the netline

[Urs]

Wow where do you get this information from? , I'm talking about those processes.
Along the way, you are stuck in the late 80s. Everything has long changed and radically , to date, the process of 65 nan has been fully mastered, which allows the production of quite decent industrial electronics. Now this is just relevant.
And I’ll tell you one secret, due to the fact that integration at the level of those processes of 22 nan and less is not available to us, active work is underway to develop those processes for quantum processors. Note that I said about the development of those processes for industrial production, the processor itself is already available and working and in a single instance.

[vadimtt]

You, like the government, apparently live on another planet.
At least I have data and not first-hand, but at least from the second.

PS: Stop talking about what, alas, you do not understand.

[HattinGokbori88]

The problem is not TSMC or SMIC, the problem is ASML. ASML is a rare western bloc cooperation success. Even if ASML stops progressing now, no one in the world will be able to come close to it technologically for a decade.
Only one country in the world has a huge high-tech electronic supply chain that can reach the level of TSMC semiconductors without ASML machines in the next 20 years, and that is China.
If Russia is to succeed within a reasonable time frame, it must court China for full cooperation anyway. China will certainly ask a very high price, but it must be paid; or TSMC & ASML along with the West will be so far ahead that there will be no hope of ever reaching them.

But of course there are always washing machines as another option.

[Andy_nsk]

But of course there are always washing machines as another option.

Did they really put Elbrus in the washer?

[Alexey Lantukh]

Washers can work without microcircuits at all. There was a Turkish washer with a software mechanism in which there was no electronics. The spring turned the drum on which there were holes, like on punched cards, if anyone remembers what it is. The machine worked for a very long time. New current washers don't live that long.

[Duncan]

We have such a shtatovsky Virpul for 20 years and did not break.

[garik77]

Whirlpool microwave on the mechanics has been working properly since 1994 and I'm not going to change it for anything. The washer on the mechanics worked for many years until it leaked, but that's another story

[solar]

I had a Bosch like this, it worked for 25 years, it was replaced after repair purely because of its appearance, it would still work.

[S. Nikolaev]

If Russia is to succeed within a reasonable time frame, it must in any case court

10 years.. 20 years..
To succeed, it is necessary to develop VMs on new physical principles. Starting conditions are now about the same for everyone. Courting someone for cooperation and dependence is futile

[Plover]

As for China, you are wrong - at the moment it cannot produce the means of production of the current and previous generations, all this equipment is purchased. EUV technology in terms of geography and complexity demanded to involve the entire Western world, there are supplies from the USA, and from Europe, and from Japan, even New Zealand supplies something.

[DENSG]

Crooked Google translation, it's a shame for the site to spread such game, google the news in English, STMicro is a French - Italian company, headquarters in Switzerland only registered in the Netherlands, of course they build 300mm Fabs in Croll France and Catania Italy 200mm silicon carbide the latest technologies in power semiconductors and there are no plans to stop, because one hundred record profits, R & D include and capital expenditures are record, no energy prices are affected,

[nickname7]

The most interesting information is located behind the language barrier, which in YouTube can be overcome by including captions and translation of captions.
Why The World Relies On ASML For Machines That Print Chips
(Why the world relies on ASML for chip printing machines)