The Ministry of Defense worked out the transfer of RTOs of the Karakurt project from the Baltic Sea to the White Sea through inland waters

The Ministry of Defense continues to work out the transfer of warships from the Baltic to the Northern Fleet via inland waterways. This time the RTO "Mytishchi" of project 22800 "Karakurt" from the Baltic Sea visited the White Sea. fleet.

Last year, the Ministry of Defense was quite actively working out the transfer of ships from one fleet to another precisely along inland waterways. The military worked out the transfer of small missile ships from the Caspian Sea to the Baltic, from the Baltic to the White Sea, from the Black Sea to the White, etc. Project 22160 patrol ships, RTOs "Buyan-M" and RTOs "Karakurt" took part in the experiments, i.e. warships of small displacement, capable of passing through the locks of the White Sea-Baltic Canal and the river.

The last to be transferred to the Northern Fleet was the Sovetsk RTO, which is the second Karakurt after the Mytishchi, which replenished the combat strength of the Baltic Fleet in 2019. This year, there were no reports of conducting exercises with the transfer of ships, apparently the Mytishchi RTO was the first to visit the White Sea. Reportedly "News", referring to the military department, the ship crossed the Neva, Lake Ladoga and the White Sea-Baltic Canal, after which it arrived in the White Sea. There, the RTO crew conducted rocket firing, and then went back.

The Ministry of Defense emphasized that exercises of this kind confirm the possibility of transferring project 22800 Karakurt RTOs by inland waterways, if necessary, to deliver a missile strike or perform any other tasks. This excludes options for inter-fleet crossings through the Danish Straits and the North Sea in full view of the intelligence services of all NATO countries. In Soviet times, the command of the USSR Navy repeatedly practiced the transfer of ships from fleet to fleet across the country, even submarines were involved.

Comments

[Doctor]

It looks like the most intelligent ship. A dozen of these will easily cover the landing of the MP brigade on Zubr. It remains to build them in the right quantity ...

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

A dozen of these will easily cover the landing of the MP brigade on the Zubr

They won’t cover up, they are imprisoned for other tasks!

[Romario_Argo]

Russia and Iran were going to build a canal from the Caspian Sea to the Indian Ocean - 700 km
only it seems that the Americans and in Iran began to destabilize the situation
protests have begun - women burn hijabs, cut their hair
by the way
something is quiet about the construction of the DKVP pr.12322 Zubr - there are no turbines from Saturn yet
and so 2 factories can build them in St. Petersburg Almaz and the Sea in Feodosia

[Serg65]

Quote: Romario_Argo

protests started

Protests are out there, it's national fun!

Quote: Romario_Argo

something silence on the construction of DKVP pr.12322 Zubr

Why ... build them? I don't see any value in them at the moment.

[Doctor]

Why ... build them? I don't see any value in them at the moment.

What to land on? In tows, under the cover of the RRC? Tried it, didn't work...

A company of marines + 3 Nona SVK will fit in there. 12 Bison per brigade - quite.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

What to land on?

Have you ever seen the approach of the Bison to the shore?
Let's start with this!

[Doctor]

Have you ever seen the approach of the Bison to the shore?
Let's start with this!

Live - no. And what is wrong? What can prevent him from going to the beach of Odessa, even mined. It's like he was made for this.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

And what is wrong?

And the fact that this roaring huge white cloud will wake up even the defender of Odessa drunk with vodka to death even on the alignments of Sevastopol!

[ramzay21]

Bison are good for the rapid transfer of reinforcements, the delivery of ammunition and the evacuation of the wounded from the controlled coast, provided that the air and surface situation is controlled along their route and in the presence of mine danger.
That is, if air defense was suppressed, our aviation controlled the sky, several frigates would control the landing area and the route to Sevastopol, and the landing units had already landed on the coast in the Odessa region, then the Bison could immediately begin to deliver units to develop the success of the landing without waiting for clearance minesweepers.
In principle, the Mi-26 can do the same thing flying in WWI, only it can do many other things.

[ramzay21]

What can prevent him from going to the beach of Odessa, even mined. It's like he was made for this.

This looks beautiful during the exercises, but in addition to mines, there are also anti-ship missiles, aircraft, helicopters, artillery and Hymers MLRS.
RCC Harpoon and Neptune will begin to destroy the Zubrs a hundred kilometers from Odessa, and then the Su-25 and Mi-24 will finish them off the coast ...... and fse

[Doctor]

This looks beautiful during the exercises, but in addition to mines, there are also anti-ship missiles, aircraft, helicopters, artillery and Hymers MLRS.
Anti-ship missiles Harpoon and Neptune will begin to destroy the Zubrs a hundred kilometers from Odessa, and then the Su-25 and Mi-24 will finish them off the coast ...... and fse request

Any landing is always waiting for a lot of horrors. This has been the case in all wars. Many were thrown into the sea, and many completed the task. There are many factors here, the right choice of place, time, accurate calculation of forces, support, concentration in a narrow direction, and a lot of things.
If we now, with all the clumsiness, landed on Zmeiny, then I’m sure if we had one normal MP brigade, enough landing means (the same Zubrov), and missile support for at least 8-10 Karakurt, Odessa would be ours.

[ramzay21]

If we now, with all the clumsiness, landed on Serpentine, then I’m sure if we had one normal MP brigade, enough landing means (the same Zubrov), and missile support for at least 8-10 Karakurt, Odessa would be ours

There were several dozen border guards on Serpentine, what was it to land there?
All successful operations are successful because they were carefully prepared and planned, and especially amphibious assaults. And we don’t need Bisons, but a horizontal landing on sea-based amphibious armored personnel carriers, which we don’t have.

What is needed is not missile support for 10 RTOs, but strike capabilities combined with reliable air defense and anti-aircraft defense support for the area, which 3-4 frigates 22350 can provide. And RTOs without anti-aircraft defense and weak air defense are good targets themselves.

[Nickelium]

Hymars will not hit a moving target. And the Bison has decent speed. Artillery 50-50. Here are anti-ship missiles, planes and helicopters - a problem.

[Romario_Argo]

partly agree on Zubram
air cushion skirt - very vulnerable
We need a fundamentally different landing ship, larger in size on skegs like RTOs pr 1239 Bora and Samum
so that he could take a battalion of 36 BMD-4
similar project 10210 Bizon

[Serg65]

Quote: Romario_Argo

partly agree on Zubram
air cushion skirt - very vulnerable

Roman, it's not about the skirt! You can hear the bison for 10 kilometers, but you can still see it from beyond the horizon. From the air and space, it is visible to a rhinestone when moving away from the wall ..... this roaring cow is a tidbit, whether in skirts or without a skirt!

[Doctor]

Roman, it's not about the skirt! You can hear the bison for 10 kilometers, but you can still see it from beyond the horizon. From the air and space, it is visible to a rhinestone when moving away from the wall ..... this roaring cow is a tidbit, whether in skirts or without a skirt!

Yes, everything is visible now. in different ranges. It won’t work out quietly, like Kunikov’s.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

It won’t work out quietly, like Kunnikov’s.

It won’t work quietly, you’re right, but after proper processing of the coast and adjacent areas, landings can also be landed by ordinary landing ships .... it is not necessary to expand the line of landing craft and spray resources on it!

[Romario_Argo]

project 10210 is still relevant due to the speed of 60 knots
can be implemented as a destroyer or DKVP 80 vehicles
with powerful air defense of 4 Shells, Redoubt for 32 missiles, Packet-NK, UKKS for 32 anti-ship missiles / PLUR / SLCM, basing up to 6 helicopters - almost a PLO cruiser

[Serg65]

Roma, this was relevant under Ustinov, to receive orders and bonuses for the military-industrial complex!
This is a very expensive toy with low fighting qualities.

[Romario_Argo]

but it seems to me that this is a promising expensive toy - just what is needed
if you work out pr. in our time
then the draft will decrease, the speed will increase to 80 knots, more powerful gas turbine engines, new materials will be put into the project, the VI will be reduced from 6000 to 4000 tons
this is the prospect of having a cruiser with a transfer almost "by land"

[Serg65]

Quote: Romario_Argo

speed will increase to 80 knots

What will give you speed?

Quote: Romario_Argo

put into the project more powerful gas turbine engines

Here, a gas turbine engine for frigates would be put into a large series without being distracted by searchlights!

Quote: Romario_Argo

this is the prospect of having a cruiser with a transfer almost "by land"

And behind the cruiser a couple of tankers on a string?

[Romario_Argo]

here I found a drawing of a UDC on an air cushion of a skeg type based on project 10210 Bizon

[Doctor]

partly agree on Zubram
air cushion skirt - very vulnerable
We need a fundamentally different landing ship, larger in size on skegs like RTOs pr 1239 Bora and Samum
so that he could take a battalion of 36 BMD-4
similar project 10210 Bizon

It seems that in the current conditions, anything more is a mass grave. And anything slower.
And yes, everything is vulnerable, as we can see.

[sleeve]

Actually, 1232 is not an assault ship. Be that as it may, and no matter how beautiful the pictures accompany this glorious ship, its main task is to achieve surprise landings, to ensure a fleeting maneuver. The protected coast remains a nut that needs to be gnawed more with spirit and readiness for losses than at the expense of such "runners" as the "Bison".

[Doctor]

Actually, 1232 is not an assault ship. Be that as it may, and no matter how beautiful the pictures accompany this glorious ship, its main task is to achieve surprise landings, to ensure a fleeting maneuver. The protected coast remains a nut that needs to be gnawed more with spirit and readiness for losses than at the expense of such "runners" as the "Bison".

Achieving a surprise landing, ensuring a fleeting maneuver - this is the assault.
And under the current conditions, it is optimal to open the nut of the coast with a massive missile strike. And only then, as usual - to feed the bridgehead, with everything that can be expanded, regardless of losses. It's true.

[sleeve]

I won't argue. BO suppression is a vital necessity. Bison - the ability to provide a "short" throw. Bosphorus, Danish Straits, Narvik, Japan. At 50 knots of cruising speed, it is possible to "perform" a landing almost in real time. 7 hours to the Bosphorus) And the suppression is massive and complex, depriving the enemy of air defense and long-range destruction, ensuring the release of a support order at the turn of artillery reach for massive support of the landing force. It's like that.

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: sleeve

It's like that.

Under the USSR, they could be based in Bulgaria. From the Bolgars to the straits of 160 km, the USSR was a powerful power. The Black Sea was an inland sea of ​​the Warsaw Pact countries. Bulgaria, Romania, USSR. No one could sneeze there without the consent of the USSR.

[Evgeny_Sviridenko]

They can also cover. The gun mounts on them are decent. For example, a 100mm A-190 mount has a rate of fire of 80 rounds per minute, a range of up to 21 km. AK-176, caliber more modest than 76,2 mm but can fire 120 rounds per minute, range up to 15,7 km. If several ships begin to hit along the shore, then it won’t seem enough.

[Serg65]

Quote: Evgeny_Sviridenko

They can also cover

Then they need at least 20 pieces to cover! When landing, the landing zone is turned into a lunar landscape and this is not done by ships! And this .... Who will cover Karakurt from the air?

[Doctor]

Then they need at least 20 pieces to cover! When landing, the landing zone is turned into a lunar landscape and this is not done by ships! And this .... Who will cover Karakurt from the air?

20 pieces of 8 missiles - it will be a little expensive for KMK. Walking the landing and the bridgehead is worth it, of course.
Su-30 on the roadstead of Novorossiysk will be covered if Che.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

20 pieces of 8 missiles - it will be a little expensive for KMK. Walking the landing and the bridgehead is worth it, of course.

I twice participated in training landings ... near Feodosia and near Odessa ... and so at the Opuk training ground, the role of RTOs was played by three TU-95s with their carpet bombing .... Calibers were not even close there ...

Quote: Arzt

Su-30 on the roadstead of Novorossiysk will be covered if Che.

And on the raid of Odessa?

[Doctor]

I twice participated in training landings ... near Feodosia and near Odessa ... and so at the Opuk training ground, the role of RTOs was played by three TU-95s with their carpet bombing .... Calibers were not even close there ...

Yes, but will they survive in the face of real opposition? Rockets are more reliable, safer and more accurate, especially since the target is stationary and extensive.

And on the raid of Odessa?

Why go there?

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

but will they survive in the face of real opposition?

But for their survival, calibers are needed!

Quote: Arzt

Why go there?

Are you going to land on the Yalta beach? Not. well, the show-off on the Bison is much cooler than on the BMW ..... yes, you are a naughty one, however!

[Doctor]

Are you going to land on the Yalta beach? what not. well, the show-off on the Bison is much cooler than on the BMW ..... yes, you are a naughty one, however! bully

I mean, why would the Karakurt climb onto the Odessa raid. What, they won’t get Caliber from near Novorossiysk? They will get out from under Astrakhan, as we see.

You asked about them:

And this .... Karakurt from the air, who will cover?

[Doctor]

But for their survival, calibers are needed!

Ideally, yes. After a missile strike, polishing with aviation is the very thing. But for this you need to be guaranteed to suppress their air defense systems. Otherwise, the Bears are crazy.

KMK, the biggest danger to the landing force at the time of landing is the MLRS. And they, as we see, can stand in the depths.

[Evgeny_Sviridenko]

What about Pantsir M and two AK-630 gun mounts? For beauty?

[Doctor]

They won’t cover up, they are imprisoned for other tasks!

Calibers are sharpened for everything, Syria proved. 40 directly along the coast in the first salvo, another 40 deeper at the time of landing - completely.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

40 directly along the coast in the first salvo, another 40 deeper at the time of landing - quite

Counter Strike?

[Doctor]

what counterstrike?

Well, how else? Hit with worthy guns, as Eugene suggests?

They can also cover. The gun mounts on them are decent. For example, a 100mm A-190 mount has a rate of fire of 80 rounds per minute, a range of up to 21 km. AK-176, caliber more modest than 76,2 mm but can fire 120 rounds per minute, range up to 15,7 km. If several ships begin to hit along the shore, then it won’t seem enough.

Who will let them go 20 km ...
No, just massively endure the entire coast. And from afar, from afar...

[Evgeny_Sviridenko]

Then the landing ships will not be allowed to come close. All the same, logic says that by the time of the landing, everything that could pose a threat to ships will already be destroyed (for example, with the same calibers). There will be "little things" (pillboxes, bunkers "and other fortifications) with which the armament of support ships will be able to cope.

[Victor_B]

The military worked out the transfer of small missile ships from the Caspian Sea to the Baltic, from the Baltic to the White Sea, from the Black Sea to the White, etc.

Grandfather Stalin knew his job!
И Lenin Stalin saw far
For many years to come!

[dmi.pris1]

That's right. It was created and worked out many years ago. And we just use what was created by our fathers and grandfathers. The Ministry of Defense was not even close when it was worked out

[Serg65]

Quote: dmi.pris

It was created and worked out many years ago

Are you talking about the landing of the Imperial Black Sea Fleet?

[ramzay21]

It is a fact! Now it would be necessary to launch the frigate 22350 into a large series and reconstruct channels and locks for the passage of such ships by inland waterways, that would be an achievement.
And boasting that ships can pass along the routes created by a great man, just like 70 years ago, is idiocy, especially since our government does not get tired of pouring shit on this person, although his secretary's slippers are not worth it.

[Sergey Kuzmin]

The Ministry of Defense emphasized that exercises of this kind confirm the possibility of transferring project 22800 Karakurt RTOs by inland waterways, if necessary, to deliver a missile strike or perform any other tasks. This excludes options for inter-fleet crossings through the Danish Straits and the North Sea in full view of the intelligence services of all NATO countries. In Soviet times, the command of the USSR Navy repeatedly practiced the transfer of ships from fleet to fleet across the country, even submarines were involved.

the farther from the eyes of the enemy, the better ...

[tralflot1832]

I wonder how the modernization of the White Sea-Baltic Canal is progressing. The plans were announced until 2024.

[skeptic]

as if they are preparing to block the Baltic Sea .. curious

[Amateur]

They repeated what was first done in 1933. EON-1, etc.

[iouris]

Preparing for the sunset of the Baltic Sea by hand.

[RoTTor]

Such cases have been quietly done since the 30s after the opening of the White Sea Canal, which was also intended for such transfers.

[Private SA]

Quote: Victor_B

Grandfather Stalin knew his job!

Yes. We’ll smoke the Belomor Canal cigarette with you if
find. Although Comrade Stalin, according to the memoirs of survivors,
"Hercevina-Flor" crumbled into a pipe. And I still have cigarettes
"Kazbek" and "Pamir" are remembered ..
The sevens were definitely transferred to the Northern Fleet from the Baltic
on "Belomor-Kanal"?. Or is it a fairy tale?

[Boniface]

Small rocket ship (small corvette) - I don’t understand at all why it is not clear why the classification of Navy ships should be changed to some kind of "corvettes" "frigates"