"Admiralty Shipyards" are preparing to lay down two submarines of project 677 "Lada" at once

The shipbuilding enterprise "Admiralty Shipyards" has begun preparations for the laying of two diesel-electric submarines of project 677 "Lada" at once. According to the press service of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, the company has begun cutting metal for submarines.

According to the report, the third and fourth submarines of Project 677 will be laid down at the Admiralty Shipyards. No date has been announced yet. The submarines will be laid down under a contract signed back in 2019 as part of the Army-2019 forum. It is noted that both submarines will be built according to the modernized project 677, taking into account the trial operation of the head submarine of the St. Petersburg series.

In 2019, at the Admiralty Shipyards, speaking of a new contract for two Ladas, they announced that they would be built without VNEU and without Zircon missiles and would become part of the Navy in 2025-2027. It is unlikely that anything has changed in these almost three years, there is still no air-independent installation, and the hypersonic Zircon is still preparing to enter service only with surface ships. However, this is the case when I would like to be wrong.

Project 677 diesel-electric submarines belong to the fourth generation of non-nuclear submarines. It is designed to combat enemy submarines and surface ships, destroy its coastal facilities, lay minefields, and transport special forces units and cargo. Submarines "Lada" are armed with "Caliber-PL" complexes and six 533 mm torpedo tubes. Submarines of this project are distinguished by a high degree of automation and low noise level. Their surface displacement is about 1,8 thousand tons, the maximum underwater speed is 21 knots, and the immersion depth is up to 350 meters. Crew size - 35 people.

To date, the Navy has only one Project 677 submarine - the lead Lada, which became part of the Northern fleet.

Comments

[the most important]

For a long time they were going to fulfill the contract from 2019. Maybe they will go faster than harnessed.

[Thrifty]

The most important thing, probably, they thought during this time to bring the anaerobic power plant to mind, but with the "stone flower" a bummer, the bastard got stuck halfway to the exit ...

[Piramidon]

Quote: Thrifty

The most important thing, probably, they thought during this time to bring the anaerobic power plant to mind, but with the "stone flower" a bummer, the bastard got stuck halfway to the exit ...

With this installation, as I understand it, they decided, based on the experience of operating foreign submarines of this class, not to bother. And expensive, and no special advantages over conventional diesel-electric submarines. "The price is not worth the candle"

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: Piramidon

With this installation, as I understand it, they decided, based on the experience of operating foreign submarines of this class, not to bother. And expensive, and no special advantages over conventional diesel-electric submarines

And what is wrong with foreign experience? German type 212 go, Finnish too, Japanese type "Soryu" and others too. Those. works all over the world, but we have different laws? Let's just face the truth without excessive urra-patriotism - we have not yet been able to make VNEU. Although they tried just like the German 212. That's the whole reason. No matter how bitter she is.

What does no advantage mean? Are you out of your mind? The advantages are almost the same as those of the nuclear submarine, with the exception of the cruising range.

[venik]

Quote from Tomcat_Tomcat

What does no advantage mean? Are you out of your mind? The advantages are almost the same as those of the nuclear submarine, with the exception of the cruising range.

=======
Oh is it? NAPLs with VNEU have essentially the only advantage: their underwater range is determined solely by the fuel supply (for diesel-electric submarines - by the capacity of the batteries, which is much less). But they also have disadvantages! For example, the same Stirling engines - a) much more bulky (compared to diesel engines) b) - they are much more complicated, capricious and expensive; c) they have a lower efficiency. and finally, d) - they rattle no worse than ordinary diesel engines and are essentially inapplicable in the "sneaking" mode, which means that in addition to them, the boat must be equipped with electric motors with batteries, which means that the dimensions of the nuclear submarines will be much larger compared to diesel-electric submarines with a power plant of the same power ... Well, or put up with the fact that the boat will rattle like a "bucket of bolts" ....

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: venik

But they also have disadvantages!

Has anyone denied them? Every technique has pros and cons.

Quote: venik

Well, or come to terms with the fact that the boat will rattle like a "bucket of bolts"

only in your imagination. You think again about the advantages of a boat with VNEU. This means the secrecy and safety of the boat. And yes, these boats are ALL equipped with electric motors and batteries. In fact, the movement under them is a regular way of movement. Please don't write more nonsense. Everyone in the subject knows. It is foolish to argue with the obvious. Even my most ardent opponent even admitted that with VNEU PL is better than without it. Do you want to go through that path again, or do you just want to argue that there are no more topics? so this is not a topic where discussions can take place. Here, in my opinion, the opinions of both the admirals and the correct theorists of sofa troops and not only came together.

[bayard]

VNEU, in addition to being complex and not pulling out the expected characteristics, is also very expensive. The Japanese refused VNEU, but you can’t catch them in poverty and technical backwardness. The Yapis are now building the same Soryu, but with more capacious LIABs. This would be good for us too ... but there is a question of the safety of their (LIAB) operation, "Losharik" is a lesson in that.
But the yapam of their "Soryu" with the LIAB was a success.
We need to work on this.
In the meantime, there is neither a sane VNEU nor LIAB, it is necessary to build "Ladas" in the usual version, in terms of combat capabilities they are head and shoulders above "Warsaw" - GAK, avionics, weapons. For the naval security service, ensuring the withdrawal of submarines and service in the strait zones, they are quite suitable, and therefore should be.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

VNEU will not. This has already been reported. As well as the fact that they are going to complete the construction of two already laid down boats, this has been reported for a long time. So they are completing the construction - B-586 "Kronstadt" (laid down in 2005) and B-587 "Velikie Luki" (laid down in 2015)

[grunt]

As an option, they were waiting for the start of the running of the 2nd Corps, and the first results.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: the most important

For a long time they were going to fulfill the contract from 2019.

The contract is signed for a certain period of performance. That is, it could have been signed in 2019, but financing for construction, according to the contract, could be planned years later.

[Barberry25]

well, taking into account the priority order for Varshavyanka + the number of staples and in-line production .. In the near future they will launch one Varshavian Ufa and Lada Velikie Luki .. here are two staples for you to bookmark

[Thrifty]

Why does the fleet need it without VNEU? There are already enough diving submarines, with VNEU a boat can go under water for up to 14 days without surfacing. And, the absence of Zircon in service is also not good news.

[bk316]

This project is not for Zircon - it will not fit into a torpedo tube.
With VNEU sheer speculation.

[Thrifty]

bl316-are you confusing anything? Onyx can be launched from TA, but Zircon is of the same caliber with it! With VNEU, a complete bummer!

[mark1]

Quote: Thrifty

Onyx can be launched from TA,

Not allowed ...

[bk316]

Onyx can be launched from TA

Caliber is possible. Onyx is not allowed.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: Thrifty

Onyx can be launched from TA

Alas, you can't. "Onyx" goes to TPK, caliber (diameter) 720 mm, there are still a lot of nuances (too long to tell). "Onyx" does not fly through TA. "Caliber" - yes.

[Vlad69]

Everything is correct. Where do zircons shoot from, from a torpedo?

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: bk316

This project is not for Zircon - it will not fit into a torpedo tube.
With VNEU sheer speculation

absolutely true.
I tried to fix the situation with the minuses. Strange people - they threw minuses for an adequate comment.

[bk316]

Well, the cons don't work for me.
If on topic. It suggests itself to make a hypersonic PKR with a more modest radius, but in caliber sizes. Moreover, it is impossible to shoot at 1000 km without external target designation, and you can get it at sea from satellites, and for this you need to surface. And the whole charm of such boats is in their secrecy, but they will notice the surface ....
In general, 200 km above the roof, and if it is 10-15 kilometers under water before the start, it will generally pass what is needed: you sit waiting, the target passed, shot in the wake and then you wait

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: bk316

surfaced notice ....
In general, 200 km above the roof.

they won't be able to. This was a feature of the performance characteristics that did not shine, but in fact were the battle horses of the Skat submarine with Amethyst-type anti-ship missiles. Absolutely "no" boat that could give a very sick pendel. Just because no one would have done anything, and they would not have heard her - and here they are 8 missiles for you, "get a fascist grenade"!
And then it’s not a fact that someone will rush in pursuit, and not save crews from fire or icy water.

so, it’s, of course, good to load the TA of our submarines with something useful, it would be something. And there would be a will, i.e. production in reasonable quantities

[Orange bigg]

Quote: Thrifty

Why does the fleet need it without VNEU? There are already enough diving submarines, with VNEU a boat can go under water for up to 14 days without surfacing. And, the absence of Zircon in service is also not good news.

Increasing the stealth of the submarine. They say that VNEU has already been created in metal.

The main advantage of VNEU is an increase in the stealth of the submarine. The submarine gets the opportunity to be under water without surfacing to charge the batteries.
“I would like to [start sea trials] this year. But if it does not work out, then in 2022 we will definitely show it. The question is not simple, complex. The installation itself has already been created, all physical principles have been implemented. In the near future, a floating structure will appear, a real compartment will be tested, ”Rakhmanov said.

He explained that there is a laboratory facility that works on land, and now the task is to test it on water.

“Two companies - Rubin and Malakhit - are developing the installation, each of them has its own successes, we will promote both concepts,” said the head of USC.

According to him, work on the creation of a prototype VNEU is being carried out through the Ministry of Industry and Trade.

https://m.vz.ru/news/2021/9/24/1120704.html

[Amateur]

Why does the fleet need it without VNEU? There are already enough diving submarines, with VNEU a boat can go under water for up to 14 days without surfacing.

Dear! For scuba diving over 14 days, the Russian Federation has Nuclear Submarines. We are sure that now you will not, like the March cat, demand VNEU, VNEU, VNEU ...

[Thrifty]

An amateur in the Baltic Sea, in the Black Sea, will all tasks be performed by nuclear submarines? Even, regular patrols are closer to the enemy’s bases, given that we have few submarines, mostly in repairs, so you’ll have to use a diesel engine with VNEU I'm not asking, but military sailors, and for a long time already !!!

[Amateur]

Amateur on the Baltic Sea,

Thrifty!
The Baltic Sea was already too small for WWII submarines (read the memoirs of submarine commanders).
The Baltic Sea, like the Black Sea, is completely blocked by land-based aircraft or coastal anti-ship weapons systems. In these seas, submarines simply do not have tasks. Well, 6 Black Sea boats are intended for the Mediterranean Sea.

[tarakan]

Why the hell in the Black Sea VNEU?

[Barberry25]

well, in general, the question of price is, let's wait for the end of the year, then Rubin and Malachite should report on their success

[grunt]

It’s better to have NAPLs without VNEU than without NAPLs at all .... Boats are all the more very necessary, because 877s are younger than the regular NPSS (25 years old) and no longer exist at all.

[210ox]

I do not argue. New boats are needed. But how are they better than the latest versions of the proven Varshavyanka?

[grunt]

In fact, even if on the fingers, then a lot of things: a more advanced HAC with a quasi-conformal main antenna and with a GPBA, the presence of a marine non-acoustic complex, which was not born at 877,636. More advanced with a power plant, equipped with new diesel generators and a completely new electric propulsion system, with one single engine. Definitely the best stealth in all physical. fields. With a significantly lower displacement, absolutely similar weapons from 6 TAs with similar ammunition and capabilities.

Only here are the timing and mass character of course ....

[210ox]

Well, thanks for enlightening the ground officer ... I noticed that the crew is smaller. So the level of automation is already different.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: 210ox

So the level of automation is already different

the other, of course. But they did it precisely at VNEU, which is why the boats were touted. This is autonomy and the duration of being under water, this is stealth - the main weapon of the submarine. now it's gone. The main thing - I would say the most important thing - they lost the plus. So is it worth talking about everything else?

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote from knor

In fact, even if on the fingers, then a lot of things: a more advanced HAC with a quasi-conformal main antenna and with a GPBA, the presence of a marine non-acoustic complex, which was not born at 877,636. More advanced with a power plant, equipped with new diesel generators and a completely new electric propulsion system, with one single engine. Definitely the best stealth in all physical. fields. With a significantly lower displacement, absolutely similar weapons from 6 TAs with similar ammunition and capabilities.

Only here are the timing and mass character of course ....

Only now it was all supposed to be with VNEU. This was an order, it was these boats that the fleet wanted to receive. And if I had received them in full accordance with the TTZ, this would have been a significant strengthening of the fleet. And now, in addition to everything you have listed, cross out the fact that the boats have an old power plant, like on 636. With all its shortcomings. You need to evaluate ships in relation to the fleets of potential opponents. If you write comments not for the sake of your rating, according to sanity and concepts, but not for the sake of "like", then you should understand. Why was VNEU specifically assigned? If the boats are already fabulously good. why else would they?

[grunt]

How can you have an order for something that doesn't exist? All ships of this type, contracted earlier or currently, as far as we know, go without VNEU. This is already a significant strengthening of the fleet, with the proviso that it is not as significant as we would like.

The old power plant and power plant without VNEU are a bit different, note. Warsaw, for example, has an old conceptual electric propulsion system of two HEDs - for low noise and full speed, located in the penultimate compartment. The 677 assumes 1 single engine of a fundamentally different type, and placed as close as possible to the stern, for a minimum shaft length and a minimum number of support links. Do you see the difference?

You need to evaluate ships on very, very many things, and the ratio with similar equipment of foreign states is only one of the criteria.

Why all this tautology? After all, it was discussed 100 times, incl. and the need for VNEU.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote from knor

How can you have an order for something that doesn't exist?

like this. Decided. what they will do during the construction process, and it seems like at first the releases were inspiring. That is why they tortured the lead boat for 17 years. Or do you think that all this time they could not weld a sheet of metal?

Quote from knor

Do you see the difference?

and you? do you see the difference between VNEU and not?

Quote from knor

Why all this tautology?

So I don’t understand why you are arguing with the obvious, and you yourself bring the obvious? You see. there is what is, and whatever you call it, it will not become different. You can call a dog's tail the fifth paw - it will not become a paw from this, and it will not stop being a tail. What do you want to prove to me? That the fleet wanted these particular boats? That they are better without VNEU than without it? Not? Then end the useless and unconstructive dispute. It is foolish to argue over the obvious.

[grunt]

like this. Decided. what they will do during the construction process, and it seems like at first the releases were inspiring. That is why they tortured the lead boat for 17 years. Or do you think that all this time they could not weld a sheet of metal?

What's like this? Do you know when they started building the lead 677? Then the finished VNEU did not smell at all. With the lead ship, as is generally known, they suffered for a long time for completely different reasons - because of very serious problems with a number of technical means, including key ones, and not because they say VNEU waited, but did not wait.

and you? do you see the difference between VNEU and not?

Have you read the things written before, or not? About the fact that there the power plant was completed at a fundamentally different level than on 877/636?

What do you want to prove to me? That the fleet wanted these particular boats? That they are better without VNEU than without it? Not? Then end the useless and unconstructive dispute. It is foolish to argue over the obvious.

I was not going to prove anything to you, a citizen, you yourself got involved, let's start with this. The boat is much worse without VNEU, but this does not negate its value as such, especially if the 677th is still brought to a fully operational state and all its performance characteristics are up to specification. I don’t know what exactly the fleet wanted at the time the creation of 677 began, because I didn’t read the TTZ on it, you, as I believe, too.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote from knor

I am your citizen

not to you, but to you. Sincerely. I'm not your homie with whom you drink heavily,

Quote from knor

The boat is much worse without VNEU

so what is the argument about then? Or did you not read my comment the first time? And they decided to throw minuses, and be offended. You first read well, and then exhale ten times.
The rest is without comment. If you don't know, read my comment again. It just reflects reality. Which I really don't like either, but that's how it is. And if you don’t know something, make it a rule not to enter into a dispute so aggressively.
All the best

If we all treated the interlocutor with respect, it would be better. And also, so that we represent the interlocutor somewhere out there, but in front of us. And what kind of disrespect can he ... just punch in the face. Holding back? Here, hold on. If you don't want to wear the title of a polite person. Always speak politely to a polite person

[grunt]

Quote from knor
The boat is much worse without VNEU

so what is the argument about then? Or did you not read my comment the first time? And they decided to throw minuses, and be offended. You first read well, and then exhale ten times.
The rest is without comment. If you don't know, read my comment again. It just reflects reality. Which I really don't like either, but that's how it is. And if you don’t know something, make it a rule not to enter into a dispute so aggressively.
All the best

You like to pull out individual phrases, completely discarding the rest of the message. Xs how to check it here, I didn’t put minuses, and why should I be offended?

You yourself answered my message to the question of how the 677th project was better than the 636th, and answered some kind of heresy. How could they order the 677th project initially (in the early 90s) from VNEU, if there was one at all, then there was none?

Then they said they say cross out the item about the power plant because it is old there. To which I repeat once again, without VNEU and the old one is not the same thing, since they are going to teach knowledge here, google something about the electromechanical part of 677, but there is a little information. This is a big step forward from what is used on the 636s. And the absence of VNEU is not a reason to call the entire EU as a whole "old".

If we all treated the interlocutor with respect, it would be better. And also, so that we represent the interlocutor somewhere out there, but in front of us. And what kind of disrespect can he ... just punch in the face. Holding back? Here, hold on. If you don't want to wear the title of a polite person. Always speak politely to a polite person

The manner of communication with twitching, tearing out individual phrases and sentences was a little pissed off, although I see this as a habit of communication? And just think, how many things have been invented and invented ... So what's really here to go deep, happily.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote from knor

How could the 677th project be ordered initially (in the early 90s) from VNEU, if it is at all

I answered this question for you. Again?
re-read, sometimes it doesn’t happen with us that it can’t fit in your little brain.
Don't believe me - raise TTZ on the boat. It is in the public domain. stop pretending to be a moo ... but, be a specialist.

If you really worked (not as a cleaner) in a defense design bureau, you would be amazed at how much material goes into business, "and how much is shelved." The latter is 95 percent. And there are many factors for that. not yet ready for it (the fleet is ready, the design bureau and the industry are not) And try to prove that we have mastered the serial production of air-independent units, risk embarrassment.

What else do you want to hear? Ldka without VNEU is worse than a boat with VNEU, don’t you deny it? I want to get a clear and precise answer - "yes" or "no"

A paragraph about how people like to argue where there is no need to argue .....

[Repellent]

Quote from Tomcat_Tomcat

Ldka without VNEU is worse than a boat with VNEU, don’t you deny it?

At the same time, a boat without VNEU (which is not) is better than no boat at all. Not?

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

The question was different. You yourself deigned to change it. And that means initially, as it were, nullified the rules of the game. Excuse me, are you a stupid person?

- instead of a defective boat, the fleet could get a very cool submarine. And even two or three - in 17 years it was possible to build.

- Instead of taking up space on the slipway, you could build something else. if we build 636 - we say so.

I understand what you are counting on - your cries. Someone will think? those who think, and I hope there will be many of them, will slap you a minus - deservedly so.
I understand that you are urry-petret (know how to distinguish it from a patriot who is rooting for his homeland), but don’t show your essence like that - it’s the same as walking in public without panties.
I am rooting for the motherland, because I have such not very pleasant comments. you - the enemies of my Motherland - write all sorts of rubbish. Well ... In the media, you can probably win, there are stupidly more of you. In real life - no!

[Repellent]

Yes, you, my friend, Hamlo

Quote from Tomcat_Tomcat

I am rooting for the Motherland, because I have such not very pleasant comments. you are the enemies of my Motherland - write all sorts of rubbish

Tatra, get over

Everything's clear with you. To ignore

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: Repellent

Yes, you, my friend, Hamlo

if you are talking about yourself, then at least honestly, but self-critically. Although I have known about you for a long time)

But in fact, as always from your brethren, he does not answer. Nothing to say, you know that I'm right, but you have to annoy? you, if you want to annoy someone, don’t beat your Slav brothers, but go to the LDNR to beat the ukrofascists. there special brains are not required. There your activity will have to be in place. Why are you sitting on the couch and pouring shit on Russians?

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: Repellent

At the same time, a boat without VNEU (which is not) is better than no boat at all

cite my quote where I said that. Otherwise, we will publicly call you nonsense.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

I would like to receive an adequate and intelligible answer from those who downvoted, if these people are not cowards, of course) otherwise I will think very badly about them, although not for long). Are you not ashamed of yourself? What do you disagree with in the comments, etc. After all, you can always express your opinion, and not just stupidly put a minus?

[shikin]

The cons that are from me are not for arguments, but for rudeness

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: 210ox

I do not argue. New boats are needed. But how are they better than the latest versions of the proven Varshavyanka?

In fact, Mr. Dmitry misled you, and did not help the "land" to figure it out.
He drowns "for the fleet to hand over any boats. Are any needed? well, then let's actually produce submarines of the 40s-50s ??? No? Outdated? So is what your counterpart offers - too. yes, it's cool, modern GAK, radar, etc. But nothing prevents them from putting them on the 636. Which is rightfully considered one of the most secretive boats. And there will be a wunderwaffe! so why was the very project "Lada" at all? that the submariners wanted to be really invisible.
But he does not do that - most likely out of ignorance Or maybe intentionally, th ... they are such - trolls. Why? Yes, because it will not give the boat combat value in modern conditions. What is the main weapon of a submarine? Do you count missiles? no - her main weapon is stealth. And it is by this parameter that boats are divided into generations. The higher the secrecy - the next generation. Do you see how this parameter is valued, and not getting some kind of missile system on the boat? that is why they "wrap in a shawl" the wines of the submarine before descending. A screw is noise, and its format can say a lot. In the underwater world there is a war for sounds, the slightest noise is true. For any rustle. 24 hours a day. Imagine. our boat was lined up. And the presence of VEEU gives her a chance to charge the batteries and leave on a low-noise course, and her absence - only to swim out. It is stealth that gives the submarine the opportunity to use weapons - and nothing else. If you are told otherwise, you should know that those who want to deceive you and the enemies of Russia are in front of you.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: Thrifty

Why does the fleet need it without VNEU?

Therefore, he did not receive a development project. Only those submarines that have already been laid down will be completed.

[Kerensky]

No date has been announced for the bookmark. The submarines will be laid down under a contract signed back in 2019

And the news is already there! Now you can assign a crew ..

[lopuhan2006]

Quote: Amateur

Why does the fleet need it without VNEU? There are already enough diving submarines, with VNEU a boat can go under water for up to 14 days without surfacing.

Dear! For scuba diving over 14 days, the Russian Federation has Nuclear Submarines. We are sure that now you will not, like the March cat, demand VNEU, VNEU, VNEU ...

What's with the March cat? VNEU or its analogues allow the submarine to keep stealth longer. You carry heresy with such arguments. Let's then sit for another 30 years on the Su-27, and not land on the Su-57 with the first stage of the engines, because this is not what I want!

[Amateur]

You carry heresy with such arguments. Let's then sit another 30 years on

The rattling Stirling in the wake of the bubbles is the vaunted VNEU. Heresy is when you do not know and / or do not understand the principles of operation of heat engines, but you undertake to comment on them.

[Thrifty]

Amateur Sterling and not close to VNEU! This is one of the alternative engine options for a submarine. In addition to the nuclear engine, all other variants of its simpler and cheaper Avalog-Sterling, VNEU, purely battery submarines !!!!!!

[Amateur]

Amateur Sterling

Sterling is a pound. English money. A Stirling is a piston engine for external combustion of fuel.
When you learn to distinguish Sterling from Stirling, then we will continue the discussion.

[Thrifty]

Amateur-well, good night to you! We will postpone the discussion until the victory of world imperialism !!!

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: Thrifty

Sterling is not close to VNEU!

Well ... on the Stirling engine they could. Although modern requirements for such installations are already different. Much more serious.
Now it was reported that they could not force the American nuclear submarine to surface. So they could not force a submarine with VNEU. If the boat can be under water for days - figs you will lure it out of there. Or drown, or not at all.
And a boat, even a diesel one, even a gas turbine, with VNUE, is generally a black hole - what our boats of project 877 were called. And if they had such a power plant? Well, yes, the urry-pariets know better. what you need... well, at least here, in the higher spheres, they are not allowed. Otherwise, these figures would have turned up there, their mother by the leg. Good luck)))

[lopuhan2006]

I didn't say anything about Stirling. Your amateurish approach once again emphasizes your nickname .... And if on the subject, then, a priori, the more modern NPL St. Petersburg and others will be more effective and progressive than the relatively old development 636.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: lopuhan2006

VNEU or its analogues make it possible to maintain the secrecy of submarines for longer.

You are trying to argue with idiots. I have already been thrown for the enlightenment of dull minuses. Maybe, well, what the hell, they still won’t understand, well, there are such shots, hit, but the nerves will remain intact?

[Alien From]

Yes, guys, with any engine, we need boats like air!

[agond]

It is not yet clear what characteristics the laid down boats will have, but for the submarine "St. Petersburg" pr.677 open data for 2019
Length - 66.8 m
Width - 7.1 m
Draft - 6.7 m
Surface displacement - 1765 tons (1950 tons according to other data)
Underwater displacement - 2650 t
Buoyancy reserve 33% according to other sources 26%
Maximum underwater speed - 21 knots
Underwater range at economical speed 3 knots - 650 miles (for 9 days)
Working immersion depth - 240-250 m (according to various sources)
Maximum immersion depth - 300 m
Autonomy - 45 days
Service life - 25 years, before the first repair - 10 years
Armament:
6 x bow 533 mm torpedo tubes with automatic reloading device. ammunition in 12 torpedoes.

[Alien From]

Most likely, maximum electronics will be supplemented, for promising RK. For the rest of the time, no.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: Alien From

Yes, guys, with any engine, we need boats like air!

Any? And if they start building the little ones of the 1932 project, will you also say that they are better, and not the necessary submarines? We have a lot of money, yes, we can build anything, and there are plenty of shipyards to borrow stocks? So?
Hospidya, take the amateurs out of here... Although, if you take them away, who are we going to comment on? Still, everyone will write correctly, boring ....

[Alien From]

Well, if you, if not an amateur, can quickly design and implement your project, then there are no obstacles to the patriots ...... I don’t see the point in explaining the well-known

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Your answer betrays complete unprofessionalism and amateurism on the topic. And you are rude to the elder in age and rank. Yes. VNEU turned out to be not such a simple nut to crack as it seemed. I think they will still master it, our design school is quite strong (although it’s just a novelty here), submarines didn’t learn how to make pies yesterday. It only says so. that the problem is serious, and not like yours - "they wanted to do it." You are truly an amateur. No offense.

17 years. You understand? 17. Not seven. It means that something needs to be tightened up in the industry, but rather in management, the theory of these movers is known and not a secret. They will. But on these boats, VNUE, it will not be. This must be accepted as a fact. It's foolish to argue with facts, isn't it?

And don't worry about me. I gave my whole life for the benefit of our military-industrial complex, and I am not ashamed of what I did. I am an engineer of the highest qualification. My cars serve and will serve. He took part in the development of combat modules for armored vehicles. took part in the development of our latest infantry fighting vehicles, which still will not get to the series. Now I'm on vacation, but I'm rooting for my creations with all my heart. I'm tired of seeing them only at parades, but I keep my finger on the pulse and know why. Soon they will come to the troops. And you will write comments .... thoughtless. Believe me, if you wishful thinking. it will not become valid. you have to work long and hard.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

You see, our submariners are our guys. Russian, Soviet. It seems to be like you and me. True, the dough is of a different hardening. Before these men, I take off my hat and bow low. The very fact that being in a steel box for days or weeks arouses genuine respect. So they carry out combat missions. They were pointing the nix at the NATO fleets. I was familiar with a midshipman who served on a submarine, which they could not raise to the surface during the Caribbean crisis. The cousin uncle of my mother-in-law's sister. Now he is in the best of all worlds, the kingdom of heaven. Then they went to the Indian and wherever they were. Think. these guys need to be sucked in anyhow what technique? Do we have a lot of specialists to scatter and donate? Yes, the submariners would tear your mug.

Quote: Alien From

I don't see the point in explaining what's known

yes, and I to you. Anyone who has at least one gyrus understands.

[Alien From]

In my opinion: "TROLL detected"!

[White man]

Not mariman, but, I think, we have so many different seas from the northern to the Caspian Sea that there is a service for any and all ships

[agond]

Meanwhile, Lada is almost one to one close in size to the Ryubi boat, France, although ours has 50 tons more displacement and ammunition for two smaller torpedoes, but we have a crew of 35, they have 57 people. and ours is diesel, and that nuclear one and their service life is 30-39 years,
Surface displacement 2 410 t
Underwater displacement 2 607 t
Speed ​​(Underwater) 25 Knots
Operating depth immersion 300 m
The autonomy of navigation is 45 days, it is possible to increase up to 60 days.
Length 73,6 m
Hull width 7,6 m
armament 4 bow TT 550 mm, 14 torpedoes

[Horus]

Do the states have a lot of boats with VNEU? Why is everyone so worried about him?

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

Quote: Horus

Do the states have a lot of boats with VNEU? Why is everyone so worried about him?

none. The United States has not had non-nuclear boats for a long time. So what? Do we have only States in rivals? don’t you realize that in the event of a mess, the fleets of other countries come under the command of NATO (i.e. the United States), and act in its interests?

And everyone is worried why I will explain. They announced one thing, after 17 years we see something else. It's a shame for our military-industrial complex. Are you not Russian?

[Autocorrect]

And what do you think. The reactor inevitably makes noise, you can’t swim far on the battery. Meanwhile, noiselessness is stealth, and stealth is the key to completing a combat mission and survival. And VNEU is a cruising range without surfacing and without the disadvantages of using a nuclear reactor, which is at least two orders of magnitude greater than you can afford, even if the entire boat is equipped with only a battery and nothing more.
If the United States now had submarines with VNEU, they would be able to calmly, in normal mode, observe all our exercises. Instead, the Americans drove a whole nuclear-powered ship into the shallows into the Sea of ​​Japan, which is why they slept like little children in someone else's garden.

[Repellent]

Quote: Autocorrect

Meanwhile, noiselessness is stealth, and stealth is the key to completing a combat mission and survival

The snow is white and cold. And 2 * 2 = 4.

Quote: Autocorrect

The reactor inevitably makes noise

What exactly do you think is making noise in the reactor?
And VNEU does not make noise? Why, if not?

Quote: Autocorrect

And VNEU is a cruising range without ascent and without the disadvantages of using a nuclear reactor, which is at least two orders of magnitude greater

Why two orders? Minimum?

Quote: Autocorrect

if the whole boat is equipped with only a battery and nothing else

What is it like? Will you charge the battery at the gas station?

Answer in detail, if you can, of course. If you can’t, then you don’t own the subject (there is such a suspicion).

[Autocorrect]

Well, now your initial misunderstanding of why VNEU is needed on submarines becomes completely explainable No more questions for you
If you want to get an answer - write a private message.

[lopuhan2006]

Will you trample into the Baltic or Black Sea with nuclear submarines? You never know what someone has or does not have, their own is created based on their needs. We have only one MiG-31, but we need it, but there is no such thing in the States, right? ..... what kind of arguments do you sometimes see!!!!!

[Sergey39]

Yes! We harness for a long time, but VNEU is needed - this is a step forward, and possibly two!)))

[Autocorrect]

The era of the war of robots is coming, which do not know fatigue. In such circumstances, constantly revealing one's presence by throwing the snorkel out is certain death.
For the Mir station, VNEU was able to do it. They even did much more, made it so that the VNEU at the Mir station needed refueling only once at the beginning of operation, the rest was done by solar panels, and the VNEU simply worked properly for many years - why not technology for conquering the depths, with the exception of solar panels of course.
Everything has already been invented a long time ago, I think the question here is monetary, not technical. Today, it still remains "more profitable" to compensate for design flaws with the lives of heroically dead sailors.
This is exactly the case even in a situation where there is no growth in the population that is suitable for going to sea, among other things, there is only a progressive decline and an unsightly picture of what will happen next.

[senima56]

"... It is unlikely that anything has changed in these almost three years, there is still no air-independent installation ..." - this is sad, gentlemen.

[Autocorrect]

You got funny emoticons - very relevant

[senima56]

Thank you. I'd be happy to post other emoticons, but that doesn't work. Now I’m just reading “The epic with the replacement of “Corn” is coming to an end?” - and again sad emoticons are obtained.

[Autocorrect]

Well, only Zadornov and Petrosyan always had fun, now there is almost nothing left of either of them, except for memory.

[senima56]

Absolutely agree with you. But Petrosyan is alive, thank God!

[Autocorrect]

This is what I meant by being alive, like a person with a surname. And as an artist who heals the soul with a joke, I have not seen him for a very long time. I believe that there will be no joy from such a meeting in the future.
It is much more pleasant to remember what happened. This is the case today in both cases.

[agond]

It is interesting to compare our Lada with the German type 209
Project designation Type 209
Operating depth 200 meters
Ultimate immersion depth 280 meters
The autonomy of swimming 50 day
30 crew
Surface displacement 1454 t
Underwater displacement 1586 t
Buoyancy 8%
Length) 62m
The width of the body naib. 6,25 m
armament 8 bow TT 533 mm, stock 14 torpedoes;
VNEU no
Since 1970, about 50 units have been built, mainly for export.
The range of the submarine was 400 miles at a speed of 4 knots, the boats of the latest construction have different batteries and their range is different ..

[Autocorrect]

I don't care about that, like the vast majority of people, I'm not a military engineer. I understand well what VNEU is, I understand even better what its absence is. What is a snorkel raised above the water is also clear. To compare "ours" and "not ours" there are also other open sources, they clearly indicate the direction of development of the non-nuclear submarine fleet.
This is more than enough to appreciate our "absolutely new" Lada 677, like any other Zhiguli.
Perhaps you answered me by mistake, so do not judge me too hard.

[agond]

VNEU is constantly mentioned here, well, if so, let's compare our Lada with the Swedish boat of the Gotland class of project A19 - single-hull single-shaft submarines with X-shaped stern plumage have a 7-bladed propeller.
Underwater displacement 1490 tons, surface - 1380 tons
buoyancy reserve is only 7%
Boat length - 60,4 m, width - 6,2 m
The hull is divided into two watertight compartments, with cofferdam bulkheads,
.boats have a combined diesel-stirling-electric power plant that reports a maximum underwater speed of 20 knots under the electric motor and 5 knots on the . two Stirling engines with a power of 75 kW each and two tanks with liquid oxygen (the tanks are located on the deck under the engines, the total supply of liquid oxygen in two tanks is 24 tons);
To ensure the required secrecy of the submarine when moving under an air-independent power plant, devices are provided to prevent the formation of bubble and heat traces. During the operation of Stirling generators, the detection of submarines is difficult due to the "clean" fuel and the high degree of combustion of its components. The installation of an air-independent power plant increases the time spent by submarines in a submerged position by 7 times (up to 14 days) compared to conventional diesel-electric submarines. Although the maximum output power of each Stirling generator is 75 kW, the actual operating power is only 65 kW. With a submarine life support expenditure of 75-85 kW, no more than 45-55 kW remains for propulsion.
The project provides for the volumes to accommodate the third Stirling generator.
Armament 4 tons / a 533 mm and 2 tons / a 400 mm. total ammunition 18 torpedoes
crew 24-32 people.
The boats have undergone modernization, lengthening the hull by 2 m (in a monohull boat this is not particularly difficult to do)

[Autocorrect]

"Stirling generators" or rather, Stirling engines, are a relic of the past.
Modern VNEU are fuel cells that have already learned to do in the USSR. Read how the energy system of the Mir station worked.
Fuel cells are quiet and much more powerful than any Stirling engine. But the main thing is their efficiency. The thermodynamic process of an internal combustion engine makes it possible to use only 30 percent of the thermal energy. This is a theoretical value, it is impossible to exceed it by any design solutions. That is, out of 10 liters of fuel, the internal combustion engine uses only three for movement, the rest goes into heat and emissions into the atmosphere. And this is in theory, i.e. this is when the mechanical resistance inside the engine itself and the entire transmission from the gearbox to the tires is assumed to be zero, which cannot be in practice, therefore the real values ​​​​of the efficiency of any transport system based on an internal combustion engine are even less, moreover, noticeably less. Comfortable operating conditions, for example, for cars are achieved by reducing the overall efficiency by another 3-5 percent, which is a lot. But, the use of internal combustion engines was beneficial, because it was easily accessible, one of the components of the working fluid - air is everywhere.
So it was until fuel cells appeared, their theoretical conversion efficiency is close to 100 percent, real values ​​range from 90 ... 95 to, attention, ... 40 percent! Those. even the worst fuel cell in the most uneconomical mode of operation is already immediately 10 percent more efficient than even the theoretical indicators of the internal combustion engine! And at the same time, fuel cells do not make noise, there are no pistons and crankshafts, and the output is precisely electrical energy, which is much more profitable to obtain than mechanical energy, because it can be very easily converted into any other form with high efficiency values.
For underwater vehicles, especially military ones, these advantages determine everything, even despite the high cost of manufacturing fuel cells today.

For reference: the phenomenon of converting the oxidative energy of hydrogen and oxygen into a difference in electrical potentials on two separate electrodes was known as early as the 19th century.

[lopuhan2006]

Quote from Tomcat_Tomcat

Quote: lopuhan2006

VNEU or its analogues make it possible to maintain the secrecy of submarines for longer.

You are trying to argue with idiots. I have already been thrown for the enlightenment of dull minuses. Maybe, well, what the hell, they still won’t understand, well, there are such shots, hit, but the nerves will remain intact?

The most interesting thing is that a comment that is absolutely sensible in meaning is minus) In a purely sporting interest, I always wanted to look at such minusers from the outside in this process)))
Any VNEU is better than nothing, but this is my "amateurish" opinion.

[agond]

Quote: Autocorrect

But the main thing is their efficiency. The thermodynamic process of an internal combustion engine makes it possible to use only 30 percent of the thermal energy. This is a theoretical value, it is impossible to exceed it by any design solutions.

This is in automobiles, in ships it happens and more, for example, in TA96-C. about 50%

Quote: Autocorrect

For reference: the phenomenon of converting the oxidative energy of hydrogen and oxygen into a difference in electrical potentials on two separate electrodes was known as early as the 19th century.

Of course, this is true, but their work requires the presence of oxygen with hydrogen, and the latter is difficult, harmful, and not easy to store on a boat.

[Victor Dubovitsky]

Quote: Piramidon

Quote: Thrifty

The most important thing, probably, they thought during this time to bring the anaerobic power plant to mind, but with the "stone flower" a bummer, the bastard got stuck halfway to the exit ...

With this installation, as I understand it, they decided, based on the experience of operating foreign submarines of this class, not to bother. And expensive, and no special advantages over conventional diesel-electric submarines. "The price is not worth the candle"

Given the short range (not technical, but tactical) - to protect their own nuclear submarine bases, and their passage to the expanses of the Ocean, when there is no particular need to hang around under water for weeks. VNEU takes up a lot of space. which is more useful to take ammunition. improve the living conditions of the staff, and other property necessary for the campaign.

[Victor Dubovitsky]

Quote: lopuhan2006

Any VNEU is better than nothing, but this is my "amateurish" opinion.

That doesn't happen. The formula works here - OR, not AND. OR VNEU, OR something else.

[Victor Dubovitsky]

Quote: senima56

"... It is unlikely that anything has changed in these almost three years, there is still no air-independent installation ..." - this is sad, gentlemen.

We did not think that the answer is simple - not really needed. The war tactics of our submarine diesel fleet is not to be on duty off foreign shores, but to guard our own nuclear submarine bases. When watch under water for weeks is not necessary, but the volumes for an almost unnecessary car take away the most necessary. Lada, after abandoning VNEU, was cut shorter by 9 meters. so, here.

[agond]

The absence of VNEU on our boats is not due to the fact that such an installation is difficult to assemble, if VNEU is such a power plant that operates without air from the atmosphere, then for example, a gas turbine engine from a torpedo 65-76 "Kit" is suitable for this condition, which gave out power 1040 kW for 30 minutes, according to other sources, 60 minutes (for comparison, one stirling generator in Gotland has a capacity of only 75 kW), and in our torpedo kerosene burned in hydrogen peroxide, and it is an order of magnitude easier to store on a boat than liquid oxygen. This gas turbine engine was developed in 1963, by today's standards it had a low efficiency and there was even a gearbox that took about 5%

[Victor Dubovitsky]

Quote: agond

The absence of VNEU on our boats is not due to the fact that such an installation is difficult to assemble, if VNEU is such a power plant that operates without air from the atmosphere, then for example, a gas turbine engine from a torpedo 65-76 "Kit" is suitable for this condition, which gave out power 1040 kW for 30 minutes, according to other sources, 60 minutes (for comparison, one stirling generator in Gotland has a capacity of only 75 kW), and in our torpedo kerosene burned in hydrogen peroxide, and it is an order of magnitude easier to store on a boat than liquid oxygen. This gas turbine engine was developed in 1963, by today's standards it had a low efficiency and there was even a gearbox that took about 5%

Hydrogen peroxide is explosive in combination with water. In reaction with water, when the process is controlled, the temperature rises to 400 degrees. The problem with cooling in a confined space. So we don't know which is worse. Further . It is impossible to regulate the power of such an engine. It's like a solid rocket - turned on, but you can't turn it off.