Shoigu announced the transfer of two nuclear submarines to the fleet by the end of the year

By the end of the year, the Russian Navy will receive two nuclear submarines of projects 955A "Borey-A" and 885M "Yasen-M". This was announced by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu during a conference call held at the Ministry of Defense.

The Russian military department plans to receive the Knyaz Oleg strategic nuclear submarine missile cruiser and the Novosibirsk multipurpose nuclear submarine by the end of the year. Both submarines are the first serial submarines in their projects, however, if in total there are already four Boreas in the Navy, one of which is the modernized Prince Vladimir, then the modernized Ash is only one - the lead submarine of the Kazan series.

The fact that the fleet will receive two nuclear submarines by the end of the year was confirmed earlier by the head of the USC, Alexei Rakhmanov. According to him, "Prince Oleg" and "Novosibirsk" will be handed over to the military in December, they are currently completing tests. It is possible that according to the already established navy tradition, both submarines will become part of the Navy "under the herringbone", i.e. in the last days before the New Year.

Earlier it was reported that by the end of the year the Navy will also receive a special-purpose nuclear submarine K-329 "Belgorod" of project 09852, but it is known from it that the end of state tests is planned before the end of the year, but not a word about the transfer.

USC confirmed plans to build a large series of nuclear-powered multipurpose submarines of the Yasen-M project, but did not name the number of submarines planned for construction. At the end of 2020, the Ministry of Defense reported that by 2027 Sevmash should build seven nuclear submarines of the Borey-A and Yasen-M projects, annually handing over one missile submarine and one multipurpose nuclear submarine. Whether the series of "Ash" will continue after the completion of the construction of the ordered submarines has not yet been reported.

Comments

[Anachoret]

It would be nice if there were more ash trees) and Borey with cruise missiles would also be useful)
Cheers for replenishment! It would be nice to update the surface fleet in a more meaningful and faster way)

[smart ass]

Uryayaya uryayaya

[Orange bigg]

Quote: Clever man

Uryayaya uryayaya

Nick Clever should be put in quotes.

[alystan]

And add the surname Pupkin to the name!

[smart ass]

Aha! The army has received nothing but words, and you uryayya! Who is to blame? Clever man) A

[Ru_Na]

But it is right that they are planning a large series of MAPLs Ash, the old Pike, Antei will soon retire.

[bayard]

Quote: Ru_Na

But it is right that they are planning a large series of MAPL Ash

"Ash" turned out to be too expensive - like two costs "Borea". It would be more reasonable to limit ourselves to a series of 8 - 10 "Ash" and finally start a MAPL of moderate VI (5000 - 6000 tons), a reasonable price (about 2/3 of the cost of "Borey"), but a good series - 20 - 24 pieces.
And as a SSGN to build a series of 6 - 8 "Boyi-K" with CD on board (up to 112 "Caliber" or up to 80 "Zircon" \ "Onyx"). So it would be much more rational both from the point of view of budget spending, and from the point of view of achieving the optimal combat capability of the Navy).
And by definition, you can't build much "Ash", and if they do, it will be to the detriment of other projects. And then we will never see the long-awaited MAPL, which the fleet really needs, we will never see it - everything will be devoured by the Ash trees ... which are not MAPLs at all, but quite a SSGN, which was designed back in the Soviet Union to replace and supplement the Batons as a carrier of a new anti-ship missile system. Onyx.
MAPLs ... real MAPLs, should be on each of the fleets (Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet) 10 - 12 units.
Therefore, today it is wiser to postpone the Laiki project, which will be no less monstrous than Ash, and to deal with the MAPL of moderate VI. And the functions of the SSGN should be transferred to the future Borey-K and the Ash-trees that are already under construction. So it will be more rational and reasonable. And quite within the budget, because for the cost of one "Ash" we will be able to build 3 (THREE!) MAPLs of moderate VI.

[Barberry25]

and then cry "why we have different types in the fleet again" .. and the question .. is there again a gap in the supply of boats to the fleet? ? And yes, MAPLs of 533 mm torpedoes are a perversion

[bayard]

What kind of break are we talking about, if the contracted series of "Ash" is proposed - to complete, up to 8 - 10 units., The series "Boreyev" - to continue in the version "Borey-K". And instead of developing Laika, which is no less than Ash's in size and price, return to the late Soviet MAPL project of moderate VI. Her project was almost ready and even put together a full-size model. The documentation has probably been preserved in the KB.
The Navy asks to give him a MAPL - a la "dried Pike-B" ".
So we, albeit belatedly, will be able to balance the composition of our submarine fleet.
And if NO, then very soon, as part of our Fleet, MAPLs will disappear as a class.
The Pacific Fleet is already out - there is only one left. How to ensure the withdrawal and escort to the combat services of all SSBNs and SSGNs? But you also need forces to combat enemy submarines and to work on communications.
If you revise the programs of shipbuilding for submarines in time, then for the same money you can get a much more balanced, numerous and powerful Submarine Fleet.
Simple arithmetic:
- for the cost of one "Ash-M", you can build TWO "Boreya-K", which can carry up to 160 anti-ship missiles "Onyx" \ "Zircon" against 40 pieces. on one "Ash-M".
- and for the cost of another "Ash-M", you can build THREE MAPL VIs of 5-6 thousand tons, which will not have a CD battery in the UVP, but there will be enough torpedoes and CD launched through the TA. Those. we will get a sufficient number of those "hunters" that the Navy needs so much.
And 8 - 10 "Ash" as a SSGN will be quite enough, bearing in mind the existing SSGN pr. 949 \ 949A - at the first stage, and having 6 - 8 SSGN pr. "Borey-K" - in the future.
As a result of such edits in the program, we get at the output:
- 10 - 12 SSBN "Borey" \ "Borey-A",
- 14 - 18 SSGN "Ash-M" and "Borey-K",
- 20 - 24 MAPLs of moderate VI.
In my opinion, a very organic and balanced composition of the submarine forces of the NPP Fleet.

[Barberry25]

those. following the logic, it is necessary to develop and build a head MAPL over the next 6 years ... I, in principle, do not mind, in general, it’s purple, I’m not a sailor, I mean that if we are to build, then either taking into account the presence of at least 10UVP, or when installing 650 mm TA, otherwise it will be a profanation ..

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

those. following the logic, it is necessary to develop and build the head MAPL over the next 6 years.

I think there are about 10 years in reserve, because not all the contracted "Ash trees" are on the slipway, so ... when there are free places on the slipway where the "Ash trees" are assembled, it would be quite possible to lay a couple of "Boreevs" on them. TO" . Fortunately, they have hulls side by side on the same shipyard. And during this time, to raise the archives for the same MAPL (if memory has not changed, it was the 956 project), and at the same time the developments on the "Husky", which seemed to be designed precisely as a MAPL with a liquid metal coolant (a la the new "Lyra" ) and try to bring this project to mind. At the same time, the main installation is the price within 2/3 of the "Borey", VI 5-6 thousand tons, torpedo armament + CD from a torpedo tube (PLUR and "Caliber" anti-ship missiles with a supersonic second stage), a water-jet propeller, perfect by the State Aircraft Corporation with low frequency illumination.

Quote: Barberry25

if we are to build, then either taking into account the presence of at least 10 UVP

Why are these UVPs for submarines of moderate VI, if the CD can also be launched from the TA? Why complicate, enlarge and raise the price of MAPL, which should cost like a corvette pr. 20380 \ 20385?
Although a couple of launch cups (for 8 - 10 "Zircons") might not have interfered with the case ... here you have to count and watch the original project.

Quote: Barberry25

, or when installing 650 mm TA, otherwise it will be a profanation ..

This caliber is already outdated - "Onyx" \ "Zircon" will not fit into it, and the latest domestic torpedoes of the classic caliber (533 mm.) Already run for 50+ km. So a 40 torpedo / CR ammunition battalion will be quite sufficient for an MAPL.

[Barberry25]

Only Calibers can be fired from the TA, neither Onyx nor zircon can fit into 533 mm, and I do not mind making 670 mm TA, another thing is important here, that you can launch any range of missile weapons, and more importantly, yes, new physicists hammer on 50 km, but enemy marks are beaten in the same way ... that is. or you need to make prodigy torpedoes at the price of gold blanks in order to overtake them or bypass this mountain and make an analogue of Keith with a range of 100 km, taking into account the development of technology, this will no longer be a torpedo, but an analogue of a kamikaze UAV that can search for an enemy submarine and attack it , and let's say it's easier to provide a range of 100-125 km for a 650-670 mm torpedo than to provide at least 533 km for a 75 mm torpedo. "to pull out the MAPL operating time from the storehouse", and without the UVP, then it must be provided with a weighty argument in a dispute with an enemy submarine

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

and I am not against making 670 mm TA, another thing is important here, that you can launch any range of missile weapons,

Why do you need THIS?
The Navy has a PLUR that can be fired from a TA. This is the "long arm". Which is also a "Quick Hand". I think the range of such a PLUR, if desired, can be increased, the main thing is that the SAC provides target designation.
And to pay off on new submarines of TA under monstrous torpedoes ... isn't it easier then to write a couple of "glasses" behind the wheelhouse? And let them use Zircon, Onyx, and PLUR?
For me, the presence of UVP is not important. It is essential that they do not inflate the dimensions to disgrace and raise the price of the PLA for the clouds.
MAPL is a massive submarine for fighting enemy submarines, military convoys, enemy surface ships (in exceptional cases) for which "Calibers" with a supersonic stage are quite suitable, for carrying out special operations.
To make it also an arsenal for anti-ship missiles and the Kyrgyz Republic for strikes (massed) along the coast, will lead us again to the same "Ash".

The idea of ​​using a shortened version of the "Borey" as an MAPL was also expressed in the vastness of our VO - leaving him no more than 4 launch nozzles for the CD. The price of this "MAPL" will be about 500 million dollars. ... but still its size will be large.

[Barberry25]

plur is hit at a maximum of 50 km and there is nothing to build up ... otherwise they would have increased it long ago. large torpedoes allow us to transfer the possibility of counteraction to a different level, going beyond the "gentlemen's firefight" point-blank ... and yes, what's the difference in size? the task is to be able to solve the set tasks

[bayard]

Well, put a couple of "glasses" behind the wheelhouse and 8 - 10 PLURs in the "Onyx" or "Caliber-M" section, they will throw you a torpedo for 100 km. So it will be FASTER. And while the torpedo reaches (100 km.) ... until will find ... "donkey" and "padishah" will be lost in the oceans.

[Barberry25]

1) in any case, we need to build more than 6-8 Borei-K units..minimum 12, and 14 + is better, in which case we get very powerful weapons
2) One of the ways for the development of the submarine fleet is the creation of underwater drones, and in this case, an appropriate launcher is needed, namely a TA of a larger size, I would not be very surprised if in the end it turns out that they order a series of Khabarovsk with 6 heavy underwater drones, but this is from discharge, but in fact the ability to get long-range TA is very, very important, otherwise the question is, why do we need all sorts of Physicists if there are missile torpedoes? In any case, I would strain the appropriate research institutes to do R&D ... such boats must either have up to 10 UVP or a larger TA. As an example, the nuclear-powered Amur-export version of Lada, which has a UVP, which makes it possible to be a very dangerous machine ..

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

1) in any case, we should build more than 6-8 Borei-K units .. 12 at least, and 14+ is better

Where did you go?
Where are you going?
The Navy has other needs as well.
We still need to complete the Boreev-A series - up to 12 units. , so that 6 pcs. on each of the fleets. And then the series "K". They are already 1 pc. per year they give out how long it will take?
The Navy needs MAPLs. Moreover, in marketable quantities. For this, the capacity of the boathouse where the "Ash trees" are assembled will not be enough. It would be nice to arrange their construction at the Amur Shipyard - there is an unfinished "Shchuka-B" (or "U") on the stocks from the 90s. Now we have to finish building it and launch new MAPLs. It will not be easy, but at least not from scratch - the plant is there, the infrastructure is there, and people will be trained while the unfinished construction is being completed. And people will be happy.
And the State - the Benefit.

[Barberry25]

Where did I accelerate? And where did the fleet disperse at one time, riveting narrow-profile troughs? Where were 80 MPK, RK, MRK built? Here is the same story with MAPLs, which are not present .. And yes, cool .. instead of the worked out projects, it is already necessary to build a plant , but what is not 2 or 3 at once? And you were talking about "expensive ash"? Well, yes, but building a new factory for the same difference is just that

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

where did I speed up? and where did the fleet speed up at one time, riveting narrow-profile troughs?

Solved anti-submarine defense tasks in 4 fleets.

Quote: Barberry25

. instead of completed projects, it is already necessary to build a plant, and what is not 2 or 3 at once?

But why build them if they have been standing since Soviet times?
Submarines in the Union were built in St. Petersburg, Severodvinsk, Zelenodolsk and Komsomolsk-on-Amur. We are talking about loading these capacities, not all of them rivet corvettes on the Amur, there workshops and slipways are idle, and on one of them "Pike-B \ U" is lying. Unfinished.
And why do you need it?
You are not a sailor or a military man.

[Barberry25]

And while the Americans were building universal ones, Perry built separate air defense ships, separate PLO ships? , there are no more employees who would have the competence to build them ... About Pike-B ... it's certainly cool ... to build a boat, which in the end will be one for the entire fleet. What is important to you? to solve the problem, for this you need boats- they are being built now, but the transition to a new project will fail without result, because 12-2 additional apl is not a result ..

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

.About Pike-B .. it's certainly cool .. to build a boat, which in the end will be one for the entire fleet.

Your ignorance is simply touching.
If this "Pike-B" is completed for the Pacific Fleet, then it will have at least (!) Three such boats: one (Kuzbass) is now in service, one more is being repaired at "Zvezda-Sudoremont", and the one that will be the third in Komsomolsk.
And on the Northern Fleet "Shchuk-B" is still lacking - the "Animal Division" is undergoing modernization.

[Barberry25]

1) it will take several years to complete the construction, so that it will go into operation by the mid-20s and by the 30th year they will begin to be written off, i.e. by the time the new Pike has served at least 10 years, it will already be alone ..

[Barberry25]

and yes, if MAPLs do, then most likely it will be Khabarovsk with UVP

[Barberry25]

and more ... but why build a 5-6 thousand tons mappl for 15 billion ... firstly, it's not a fact that this will happen, and secondly, if we want a result, then we need to at least build 12-18 Borei-K to begin with, and there already look at MAPLs

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

and more ... why build a 5-6 thousand tons mappl for 15 billion.

I have not named such a figure.
I indicated that the price tag should be about 2/3 of the cost of Borey (550 million dollars), which is about 380 million dollars. This is exactly the price of a corvette with a new radar. Which is not surprising, because the "Borey" itself stands exactly like the frigate of project 22350.

Quote: Barberry25

, secondly, if we want the result, then first we need to at least build 12-18 Borei-K

But where do you want so much ??
That would be cool even for the USSR.
And why do we need SO MUCH PLARK?
If you have already contracted about 10 Yasenei-M?
To this top ten add 6 - 8 "Boreyev-K".
Moreover, Shoigu announced his intention to order a series of such submarines.
14 - 18 SSGNs for our Navy will be quite enough. This is enough to keep 5 - 6 such submarines at sea on a permanent basis.

Quote: Barberry25

, and there already look at MAPLs

And how long are we going to wait? What will the last "Pike-B" write off?
No, the problem of the submarine submarine must be solved as soon as possible.
And if the finished project cannot be quickly obtained, then the proposal for a shortened Borea will be quite reasonable.
And it is desirable to ensure the maximum possible unification for all weapons systems, equipment, etc.

[Barberry25]

1) so that you can ensure the secrecy of the deployment of strategists
2) be able to close areas.
3) The problem of numerous types of submarines, it's like with ships of the MPK, RK, MRK, patrol boats, with different power, weapons and narrow-profile tasks, which ultimately led to 70-80 ships in the fleet, which even the coast cannot be closed. And yes .. 5-6 cruisers ... what can they REALLY be able to? Not to mention the fact that Borei-K in this case can only deploy strategists somehow to provide ... and it turns out that again, only 10 Ash trees to fight enemy ships and another pack of MAPLs , which, in principle, can, in theory, drive enemy submarines. and with an exchange of 1 to 1 due to the lack of an advantage in armament, this is not to mention the fact that we again come to a different type of ships ... and Borei-A and Boreev-K and to a heap of Ash-M and an incomprehensible MAPL ...

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

1) so that you can ensure the secrecy of the deployment of strategists

HOW ?? How are you going to provide this without a sufficient number of surface ships and MAPLs ?? After all, it is the MPS that should cover the exits of SSBNs and SSGNs into the open sea. But not the SSGN, which, when leaving, themselves need cover. This is the same missile cruiser, only it has cruise missiles - both anti-ship missiles and "Caliber" missiles. In the same (!!!) starting cups.
Even the same "Ash", perhaps, will also have to cover when leaving. For in essence it is an attack submarine, and very expensive.

Quote: Barberry25

.And yes..5-6 cruisers ... what can they REALLY do?

I proposed to build 6 - 8 SSGN "Borey-K" - 3 - 4 such cruisers in the Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet.
What can they do?
"In one snout" roll out Japan, for example.
Or sink their entire fleet in one salvo ... and American ships in their (Japan) bases. 80 "Zircons" or 112 "Gauges" is a very serious argument. And every such cruiser will have it (this argument). In striking power, it will be equal to or even surpass the currently being modernized "Admiral Nakhimov" - on the "Nakhimov" 80 CR in the UVP, and on the "Borey-K" - from 80 (Zircons) to 112 (Caliber).
And such an underwater cruiser will cost like frigate 22350. Not even 22350M and not 22350.1.
Do you understand?
For the price of a frigate, get a nuclear-powered submarine with ultimate power.
Ash cannot do that.
But in order for all these Borei, Borei-A, Borei-K and Yasen-M to be able to go to sea, multipurpose submarines are needed that will withdraw and protect them.

Building a submarine fleet without MAPLs is like building a surface fleet out of battleships and battle cruisers alone. Without destroyers and light cruisers, which conduct reconnaissance, protect the core of the fleet from enemy light forces and underwater threats, engage in routine patrolling, escort services and display the flag.
Without light forces, the core of the fleet is blind and defenseless. That is why it is so important to build an initially balanced fleet.
And we have terrible distortions.
just someone very "necessary" and "important" makes money on the construction of "Ash" and intensely lobbies this topic.
That is why I do not propose to kill the series "Ash". It's wiser to finish building it. I am against the Laiki series, which will be even more monstrous, expensive and harmful to the Navy.
And it would be more useful for respected people who earn money on "Ash" to undertake the construction of the Boreyev-K series ... Or the same MAPL ... But the Country and the Fleet need inexpensive, but massive MAPLs with acceptable characteristics ... but they "do not know how."

Quote: Barberry25

again we come to the different types in the ships.

But what is the variety if we have SSBNs and SSGNs - the same Borei?
Ash trees will remain in the ordered quantity - 10 pcs.
And without the MAPL, we can’t do it anyway. But it is only necessary to build massive MAPLs of moderate VI, and not monstrous SSGNs under the guise of "multipurpose".
Otherwise, according to their logic, the Borei-A could soon be christened multipurpose. And what ? He fired rockets and let's drown the convoys on the communications, chase the enemy's submarines - he has more torpedoes than the "Ash" will have.

[Osipov9391]

Agree. Even "Antei" are strategic boats in all respects.
Only their missiles are cruise and not ballistic.

[Barberry25]

yes, it is commonplace that the Americans will have to drive not 1 submarine to the coast, but at least 3 to track 3 identical submarines, 2 of which are with lionfish and only 1 with ballistic missiles, and if 1 Borei will come out, it will sit on the tail of the enemy's submarine in the end, then what? Will there be a friendly flock of five submarines? ten pieces of weapons in the fattest case ... that is. he can either fire a salvo at the submarines, or fart with 1 missiles at the submarines and that's all, he must go to the base for rearmament, and after the launch, there will also be a launch on it, so it will most likely sink, even Pike-B was at 2 thousand tons, And not "5-6 thousand tons" .. It is not "monstrousness" that is important, but the fulfillment of combat missions, in 4 the 4 mm cannon also seemed monstrous, and a few years later the 8 mm guns were installed and it was fine ... IMPORTANT completion of the task, the fleet can begin to hand over 5 nuclear submarines per year, which means after switching to cruisers they will be able to hand over similarly 6 units per year and cover the fleet's need for submarines in 1944 years, and 122-125 thousand tons of maps will be made for 2- 2 more, and these will be actual castrates, which will only be able to cover the strategists' exit. The boats should not be made on the basis of "but we need it now," but with an eye to what will happen next ..

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

. It is necessary to make boats not on the basis of "but we need it now", but with an eye to what will happen next ..

This is exactly what they did in the late USSR, after reaching parity with the USA (underwater). And they came to the conclusion that a large series of the same type of medium-range submarine submarines is needed - exactly in 5000 - 6000 tons. A kind of synergy between "Lira" and "Shchuka-B".
Because they thought about the future, saw the whole picture and did not interfere with the concept of MAPL and SSGN.

Quote: Barberry25

Pike-B was 8 thousand tons, and not "5-6 thousand tons"

"Pike-B" is a two-hull MAPL armed with 12 large-caliber torpedoes and 28 torpedoes / KR caliber 533.
The new MAPL will have about 40 torpedoes / KR caliber 533 mm. and the space of their shelves will take significantly less.
Such a MAPL was developed in the Union, a full-size model of it had already been assembled, but the collapse of the country stopped work.
Or do you admit that the USSR was going to release "castrates" into the sea?
VI of 5-6 thousand tons, this is more than VI of the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" with all its air defense, masts, cannons and other surface paraphernalia. And if you doubt the capabilities of the Soviet industry, look at our liquid metal "Lyres", the heirs of which were supposed to be our new MAPLs. And it is likely that the Husky was the reincarnation of that very project, unfinished in the USSR. At least all the informational announcements about it were just that - VI, liquid metal coolant of the 1st circuit, torpedo armament, speed, stealth (circulation pumps with liquid metal coolant are electromagnetic and do not make noise. But then the "Yasenevskoe" lobby won I did not understand anything, they began to say that "Husky" will now be called "Laika" and will be ALL different.
Why did they do this?
MONEY !
"Ash" and "Likes" are VERY expensive, you can build for a long time, referring to the complexity of the submarine design and its revolutionary nature ... And pull the bagpipes and the budget happily ever after. In large volumes.
And with the "Husky" it would be necessary to RUN THE SERIES ... and znatsit - to WORK, and not to kick buoys.
And yet - the smaller the VI and the linear dimensions of the submarine, the smaller its physical fields, and therefore the higher its secrecy. New methods for detecting submarines leave almost no chance for large and very large submarines to go unnoticed. But the PLA of moderate VI has such chances.
Well, the cost also matters - the smaller size and uniformity of weapons (TA for torpedoes and CD) contribute to this.
Why go on a hunt to lug a howitzer ... and a truckload of shells?

[Barberry25]

And what modern submarine with a capacity of 5 tons has 000 weapons on board? And yes, what is the name of the micro Mapla project of 40 thousand tons? And about "going out to hunt", is it when the "moose" also has a gun with optics and cartridges better?

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

And what modern submarine with a capacity of 5 tons has 000 weapons on board?

Such VI (5-6 thousand tons) should have been in the Husky. The compactness of the power plant was ensured by a reactor with a liquid-metal primary circuit (like that of "Lyra"), which was, moreover, much more "quiet" in comparison with a pressurized water reactor, and this is stealth. The armament is the same as that of the Pike-B, only all torpedoes are in the standard 533 caliber.
Elks and virgins are serious opponents, but with new torpedoes and low-frequency illumination, the hunter will have every chance to return with prey.

[Barberry25]

Or sink together with the enemy, because again a pistol duel .. new torpedoes, at best, will create parity .. And yes, the Husky has a displacement of 11 thousand tons. and "and there is a heart like Lyra's," said an American journalist. And here there is one thing - all the Lyres were written off, they were very difficult, and what in fact? Are we again dancing on the rake of different types of projects?

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

, Husky has a displacement of 11 thousand tons. and "and there is a heart like Lyra's," said an American journalist.

The journalist was mistaken, this is VI "Laiki", and in fact it is higher.

Quote: Barberry25

-all Lyres were written off, were very difficult and what in fact?

They were simply ahead of their time, but laid a very good foundation. It was this foundation that was used by Soviet designers in the design of the "moderate VI" MAPL. VI was added, armament was expanded, ammo was increased, compactness, high automation and stealth were provided.

[Barberry25]

and how was the sowing miracle boat called .. project number do not tell me?

[Barberry25]

so my "incompetent" verdict is as follows: build Borei-A and Yaseni-M, then build a dozen Borei-K with the tab and debug of the head MAPL mini-Khabarovsk, remove the Poseidon launchers, instead put 533 mm TA and embed a block of 10 -12 UVP for Caliber / Onyx / Zircon, about 8,5 thousand tons of displacement will just come out. The main thing will be a boat, which is made from serial and proven components without any difficulties with maintenance

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

bookmarking and debugging of the head MAPL mini-Khabarovsk, remove the Poseidon launchers, instead of them put 533 mm TA and embed a block for 10-12 UVP under Caliber / Onyx / Zircon,

Oooo how everything is dense.
Well, okay - lay it.

[Barberry25]

not a dense one of some "Soviet groundwork for the wunderwaffe MAPL", ... it already smacks of Klimov's "OVR corvette", which for some reason does not have a number, the project has no name .. not to mention at least a layout

[Charik]

In my opinion, now all submarines have 533mm torpedoes, what kind of 650mm torpedoes do we have? This caliber has probably not been made for a long time.

[Barberry25]

There are no difficulties with their development, but there is a difference in the range of 50 km. If we cannot create a massive scale of submarines, then they need to be given a trump card in their hands.

[Orange bigg]

MAPLs ... real MAPLs, should be on each of the fleets (Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet) 10 - 12 units.
Therefore, today it is wiser to postpone the Laiki project, which will be no less monstrous than Ash, and to deal with the MAPL of moderate VI.

It is not wise to postpone Laika. This is the next generation of MAPL, replacing Yasen-M.
Virginias, according to your logic, are also monstrous? Instead of "MAPL of moderate VI", you can build a 677D project Lada, the next generation NNS of the Kalina project is also being developed. What else are you missing?

[bayard]

Quote: OrangeBigg

It is not wise to postpone Laika. This is the next generation of MAPL, replacing Yasen-M.

I repeat once again - neither Ash-M nor Laika are any MAPLs, they are classic SSGNs. "Ash" in the original terms of reference was classified just like that. It was already at the beginning of the 00s, when they began to think about reviving the Army and the Navy, they decided to complete (!) "Ash" from the Soviet reserve and call it MAPL. We decided to combine two in one.
So we got the SSGN, called the MAPL - prohibitively expensive, complex and for the current tasks of the Fleet and the financial capabilities of the State - irrational.
It would be precisely "Borey-K" that would be rational.
Firstly - 2 (TWO!) Times cheaper - 550 million dollars. against 1,1 - 1,2 billion dollars.
Secondly, it is capable of carrying up to 112 Caliber missile launchers or up to 80 Onika / Zircon anti-ship missiles.
Thirdly, even in torpedo armament, Borey has an advantage - 40 torpedoes versus 30 for Ash.
Fourthly - UNIFICATION. When both SSBNs and SSGNs are made on the same base, they do not differ in anything other than starting and launching equipment, which means it will be easier to repair, maintain and train personnel.
Fifthly, both the Borei-A and Borei-K will have an identical acoustic portrait, which makes it possible to drive by the nose enemy means of control and enemy submarine submarines.
Sixthly - the "Borey" has a water-jet propulsion unit, and the "Ash" has an open propeller, as a result, it just so happened , "Borey" came out quieter and more secretive than "seemingly MAPL" "Ash-M". And this incident also matters.
Is it really not enough of the above to understand that as a SSGN, "Borey" is an order of magnitude more rational than "Ash-M"?
And the projected "Laika" is the same development of the "Ash" idea - with a CD battery, huge dimensions and (sort of like ) also with an open screw.

Quote: OrangeBigg

Virginias, according to your logic, also turn out to be monstrous?

"Virginia" is in fact a modernized "Los" with one launch shaft for 7 CR. Its latest version also provides for a whole KR battery - like the "Ash", 10 of them are planned. Well, let it be. In the end, they need to somehow compensate for the speedy write-off of 4 Ohio's from the CD in the launch cups.
The United States can afford such a large fleet of MAPLs. And this is really a MAPL - both Virginia and Elk, and even the latest version of the Virgin with a KR battery ... anyway - MAPL. Albeit with the function of a strike ship ... along the coast.
We have no MAPL at all!
And they are not even designed.
When the last Shchuki-B and 945 pr. Are decommissioned, we will not have this class of ships.
"Ash" is not suitable to replace them - it is too big, expensive (they will simply feel sorry for him, like battleships in WWI) and most importantly - there will be few of them! Simply because of their high cost and complexity.
And no Lada or Kalina will compensate for the absence of MAPLs - they simply have different tasks and areas of responsibility. They are for the near field.
There is a simple rule - MAPL should be 2 - 3 times larger than SSBN. We have today as many times less of them (those in the ranks). And soon it will not be at all.
And HOW to build two "Ash" for 1,2 billion dollars to protect one "Borey" for 550 million dollars. ?? It even reads wildly.

Several articles by Klimov (a couple of years ago) with comprehensive tables, graphs and photographs were devoted to this topic.
You just need to realize that we have a wild bias in favor of SSBNs and SSGNs ... and in the complete absence of any work on MAPLs.
And this is with the OVERWEARING domination of the enemy at sea!
It would be wiser, on the contrary, to limit the naval component of the strategic nuclear forces (as it is more vulnerable in the current conditions), and to focus on the MPS, SSGNs and surface forces to ensure their breakthrough into the operational space.
And today all the forces of the Fleet have been driven into the "bastions", but even there these forces are almost defenseless ... Due to the lack of anti-submarine forces and the submarine submarine (!!!).
As a result, all the work and spending of the state goes down ... to the toilet of the false paradigm.
Without sufficient surface forces and submarine submarines, all these "Ash" and "Borei" are helpless and ... almost useless.
Alas.
This is an MISTAKE, which is many times worse than any crime.

[lucul]

“So we got the SSGN, called the MAPL, which is prohibitively expensive, complex and irrational for the current tasks of the Fleet and the financial capabilities of the State.
It would be precisely "Borey-K" that would be rational.
Firstly - 2 (TWO!) Times cheaper - 550 million dollars. against 1,1 - 1,2 billion dollars. "

We all do not really know anything about Ash-M (except for dry numbers), because it is classified no worse than Zircon.
And to say that - they say we are so bad that we are building Ash-M for $ 1 billion, instead of building 5 times more MAPL, I would not.

[bayard]

Quote: lucul

We all do not really know anything about Ash-M (except for dry numbers), because it is classified

Ash's price is known.
The price of Borea is known.
The topic of the ratio of their price tags has been discussed in many forums for many years.
The fact that the open propeller "Ash" provides less stealth, and this propeller is heard from all angles, in contrast to the "Boreya" water cannon (heard in a very narrow aperture of the rear hemisphere.
The composition of the weapons (number of missile launchers, torpedoes) for both submarines is known and officially published long ago.
The fact that you do not know this does not make the rest, the more inquisitive VO visitors, less literate.
And for you personally, for clarity, I will repeat:
- for 1,1 - 1,2 billion dollars. you can build 1 "Ash" with 40 "Zircons",
- or 2 "Borea-K" with 160 "Zircons" (2 x 80).
- and they will have 2 x 40 = 80 torpedoes against 30 torpedoes on the Yasen.
- or as many as 3 (THREE) MAPLs with 3 x 40 = 120 torpedoes and cruise missiles in the TA.

[lucul]

"The fact that the open propeller of" Ash "provides less stealth, and this propeller is heard from all angles, in contrast to the water cannon" Borea "(heard in a very narrow aperture of the rear hemisphere."


Maybe the detection range of the enemy, in Ash, is higher than that of Borey. And it can be much farther than even the Seawolf, in this case the screw does not matter, since the enemy will be detected much earlier than Ash is found.
It is not just that there are "extra" $ 500 million in Yasen.
Everything is classified.

[bayard]

Quote: lucul

Maybe the detection range of the enemy, in Ash, is higher than that of Borey.

More . In general, the SAC is more developed. But the “Boreus” is not bad - in fact, the same “Amphora”, but in a somewhat truncated form.

Quote: lucul

And it can be much farther than even Seawolf

Our SACs do not have low-frequency illumination, but the enemy does. And there is a long time.

Quote: lucul

Everything is classified.

Yes .
Everything is top secret.

[TatarinSSSR]

Nice to read such news! As I recall the nineties, the news about the lack of funds to maintain the submarine in a combat-ready state, about the lumping officers, about the squandering and cutting of the rest ... Now, every such news warms the soul.

[askort154]

It is possible that according to the tradition already established in the Navy, both submarines will become part of the Navy "under the herringbone", i.e. in the last days before the New Year.


And my post yesterday - about the delivery of the icebreaker "Arktika":
- as always, traditionally, gifts from the military-industrial complex will go "under the Christmas tree"
booed violently, without dialogue. :

[bk316]

Well, the production and technological cycle was established, as I predicted.
All these 15-20 years are over. One boat - 8 years. This is, of course, more than in the USSR, there were 4 years for boats of the last series, but also generally not bad. And if, nevertheless, to start making nuclear submarines not only at Sevmash, it will be generally good ...

[Charik]

Are the boats being transferred to the navy with weapons, or how is this happening?

[Andrey Moskvin]

Sevmash does not make rockets.

[Charik]

I understand, it means that upon arrival at the place they charge, the empty goes over?

[Orange bigg]

Quote: Charik

Are the boats being transferred to the navy with weapons, or how is this happening?

Are pistols produced separately from cartridges or together with cartridges? There are cartridge factories, and there are manufactures where pistols or Kalashs are assembled. Submarines are also produced separately and separately for them torpedoes, missiles. Another thing is that missiles are tested during tests, torpedoes from the submarine and after the tests are completed, the submarines are handed over to the customer. On a submarine, you can always have one or another weapon from material storage bases or get it from the factory if it is new.

[Charik]

When you buy shotgun cartridges in the store, do you also buy them, or do you spin them yourself at home?

[seti]

1 of each project. Everything is logical - this is the maximum construction speed at Sevmash. It would be nice to have his dubbing in the Far East in the future.

[grassyknollgunner]

It would be nice to hand over 3 nuclear submarines a year. Better yet, 4 ...

1 x 955
1 x 885
2 x 545

[seti]

Quote: grassyknollgunner

It would be nice to hand over 3 nuclear submarines a year. Better yet, 4 ...

1 x 955
1 x 885
2 x 545

Many people want it, but not everything is so simple.
Firstly, modern boats are much more complex and technologically advanced than those that were built 30 years ago. Secondly, it is clear that it is more expensive. And the most important thing is where to build them, if not at Sevmash. Unfortunately, there is nowhere else. And this is 1 boat per year for the project. Unfortunately, nothing else.
That is why I would like a twin plant to appear on the Far East. This would make it possible to increase the number of produced nuclear submarines in two (!) Times. Plus an additional point of repair. Well, in case of an emergency situation, we have a factory producing a similar product in stock. The question is desire and money. There seems to be a desire, but money ... This is several tens of billions of dollars. And where to get specialists.

[bayard]

Quote: seti

... There seems to be a desire, but money.

At the Amur plant, the unfinished Pike-B lies on the slipway ...
Should we finish building it first?
And there it is possible to resume construction?
Moreover, there is almost nothing to build there - to modernize, to re-equip technically, to train personnel ... And off we go.

[seti]

ASZ has not produced nuclear submarines since 11 years. Accordingly, it is no longer engaged in modernization. This is what Zvezdochka is doing. It is there that nuclear-powered ships Schuka-B are being modernized.
It does not fit not because the enterprise is bad - everything is much more commonplace. The refusal is due to the shallow waterway of the Amur, along which ships must go to sea for sea trials.
The average draft of Project 971U submarines is about 9,7 meters. In turn, the average draft of the project 20380 corvettes, on the construction of which the NEA will focus, is 3,7 meters. Ash's draft is about 10m. For comparison, the Amur's fairway varies from 7,2 to 25 meters.

We need a plant on the shores of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. The Zvezda plant would be ideal, but unfortunately this question has not yet been raised.

[bayard]

Quote: seti

ASZ has not produced nuclear submarines since 11 years. Accordingly, it is no longer engaged in modernization

Yes, there is no need for modernization, but completion. The PLA is 70 percent ready.

Quote: seti

This is what Zvezdochka is doing. It is there that nuclear-powered ships Schuka-B are being modernized.

"Zvezdochka" is loaded with orders, there are PLA in the queue.

Quote: seti

It does not fit not because the enterprise is bad - everything is much more commonplace. The refusal is due to the shallow waterway of the Amur, along which ships must go to sea for sea trials.

So there now and corvettes in the transport dock along the Amur are being dragged. And the corvettes have such a draft without a keel GUS fairing. And with him there is almost more than 7 m.
And in general - how were the submarines and destroyers of the "Sarych" type taken out from there before?
Something seems to me that with the help of the same transport dock.

Quote: seti

We need a plant on the shores of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk

In theory, yes. But who will pull it? To rebuild such a shipyard from scratch from scratch ... When civilian production at Zvezda does not really go - a Korean designer is being assembled, the plant is unfinished.
No, since there is the Amur plant, there are slipways and slipways, launching capacities and the necessary infrastructure, then it will be much cheaper to develop / revive it now, as a serious CVD - invest less, you can get the result faster. And the start of such a business could be the completion of that very "Shchuka-B" (or U) lying on the slipway.
Yes, we will have to restore competencies, bring specialists from Severodvinsk, train personnel ... but.
But this submarine is very necessary for the Navy.
And what if the construction of a new-generation MAPL with a smaller VI, which will be easier to carry in the transport dock, is arranged at this shipyard?
And where else to build them, if the needs of the Fleet - 20 - 24 such MAPLs?
Severodvinsk alone cannot cope.

And let "Zvezda-Shiprepair" go about its business, it has enough work for four five years ahead ... But the capacity is not enough.
You just need to return the Amur plant to a full life, restore competencies and load with orders.
And everything will turn out much faster and cheaper.

[Jacket in stock]

Under the tree, you say.
Well, well.
In Soviet times, even in children's books, they wrote that everything made at the end of the year was not suitable for use.
I hope we managed to test these boats throughout the program, without storming.

[Dikson]

... And this is good news .. Well, something, but our country needs a lot of submarines .. after all, there are three oceans around

[Looking for]

build. build and build again. !!!

[Vdi73]

Good news, more often! And to lay a couple of modern nuclear cruisers, one at the Pacific Fleet and one at the Northern Fleet.

[A. h. 52]

Right. We will defeat the adversary with announcements.

[Vadim Kukhtiev]

Good news!

[Fisherman]

Submarines are now more practical than aircraft carriers ... the time is such!

[75 Sergey]

And where are they, to the Pacific or the North?