Military Review

"A solution with unclear effectiveness": Turkey appreciated the protection of the upper hemisphere of T-72 tanks from Bayraktar

159
"A solution with unclear effectiveness": Turkey appreciated the protection of the upper hemisphere of T-72 tanks from Bayraktar

Like the T-34 in its time, the T-72 has become a symbol of the modern era. But in the conflicts that took place in Syria, Libya and Karabakh, he could not resist the Turkish laser-guided missile MAM-L, which was dropped on the enemy's armored vehicles by ANKA and Bayraktar TB2 strike drones.


MAM-L became the killer of more than a hundred T-72

- noted in the edition SavunmaSanayiST.

Ukraine has already armed itself with Bayraktars. Its army also possesses the Javelin ATGM system, whose missiles operate in Top Attack mode [strike into the upper hemisphere of armored vehicles].

Russia is taking some passive measures in an attempt to defend its Tanks against these threats

- the author considers.

One of the amateur photos shows the T-72B1 with reinforced turret protection from above. He was allegedly filmed in Crimea. It is possible that the grilles installed on the tank are designed to reduce the destructive effect of the Javelin ATGM. But the publication believes that the effectiveness of the "birdhouse" against these ammunition, which has an armor-piercing tandem warhead, looks very dubious.

This suggests that this solution [birdhouse], developed by the Russians, is in fact directed against the MAM family of munitions, which have very successfully acted as tank and armored vehicle killers in Karabakh, Syria and Libya. It is unclear how effective this solution will be. At this stage, we can say that these tanks are only being tested.

- the conclusion is made in the Turkish edition, while indicating that the grid can fight other threats, for example, with small ammunition fired from the UAV.

MAM-L work in Nagorno-Karabakh:

159 comments
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  1. Maz
    Maz 28 November 2021 13: 10
    +2
    And what, it turned out cheap and cheerful. Better than nothing!!! Besides, Javelin has a small commutation charge! So well done ensign !!! and in the video a volley from one pipe? The impression is that they set it up themselves, then the soldier jumped up, sat down in the cockpit, lowered the trunks-pipes and ran away imitating a war, and the remote control machine stood on the sidelines. very similar to a staged video.
    1. SKVichyakow
      SKVichyakow 28 November 2021 13: 25
      +8
      Quote: Maz
      A volley from one pipe? The impression is that they set it up themselves, then the soldier jumped up, sat down in the cockpit, lowered the trunks-pipes and ran away imitating a war, and the remote control machine stood on the sidelines. very similar to a staged video.

      They begin to scatter a few seconds before hitting. It is seen. that they had been alerted to the blow.
      1. DymOk_v_dYmke
        DymOk_v_dYmke 28 November 2021 16: 01
        +10
        Quote: SKVichyakow
        They begin to scatter a few seconds before hitting. It is seen. that they had been alerted to the blow.

        The laser light on the cockpit door alerted me.

        PS It turns out interestingly: the Turkish laser guidance system is a tasty treat and a highlight, and ours is also worthless. It seems that the "experts" have adopted the experience of "British scientists".
      2. Yujanin
        Yujanin 29 November 2021 08: 59
        0
        They begin to scatter a few seconds before hitting. It is seen. that they were notified of the blow.

        Most likely, the soldiers recognized the sound of an incoming rocket.
    2. Snarkxnumx
      Snarkxnumx 28 November 2021 14: 22
      +4
      Above the tower, a frame and a disc made of sheet metal 15 mm-20 mm, with a diameter larger than the tower and attach additional active protection to it
      1. Yakuza
        Yakuza 28 November 2021 15: 35
        +3
        Yeah, and then, under this sandwich of explosives, drive a tank on the march? Fight yourself on such a trough
        1. Kesha1980
          Kesha1980 28 November 2021 17: 38
          +1
          Well, pessimistic. But Chapaev will probably agree with you.
          Pay attention to the 2 layers of reinforcement (I agree, it sounds funny) from the side of the main angles of attack. For you, is it better not to do anything? EW is probably also trying. And the air defense (kinetic part) will somehow add something to the defense tactics. All together give a positive survival rate and fulfillment of knowledge base. And this is the main thing.
          And the era of computerization in the "command grid" obliges to "steer" a platoon / company from the inside. You can't use pens).
      2. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 28 November 2021 18: 40
        +2
        Quote: Snark1876
        attach additional active protection to it

        Exactly so! We must try the elements of the remote sensing! (It is possible and of the type DZ "Knife"! ...) It's just a pity that the "visor" is only above the tower! Add "trump protection" over the engine compartment too! Moreover, the "motor" visor can be reclined on the "tower" visor!
        By the way, once in the USSR they developed a projectile "umbrella" (ZET-1)


        Well ... a big booze has begun - cut the last cucumber! Why shouldn't "such" "umbrellas" (having modified, of course ...) be fixed above the tower and the engine compartment ?! Or apply protection like SMART-PROTech on the visors ...
    3. Kaw
      Kaw 28 November 2021 15: 34
      +6
      Quote: Maz
      Besides, Javelin has a small commutation charge!

      Yeah, very small, with 800 mm armor penetration and tandem. And under this visor there is a tank roof 2-4 cm thick (if I'm not mistaken).
  2. _Ugene_
    _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 13: 12
    +12
    until there is a serial KAZ with the protection of the entire hemisphere, and we will fence this disgrace, like the Syrians, but they are from hopelessness and poverty, and we are from what?
    1. private person
      private person 28 November 2021 13: 27
      +3
      so we will fence this disgrace

      You ask the tankers a shame or not. If there was no effect, they probably would not have done it, but as you put it, kaz also does not give a full guarantee.
      1. _Ugene_
        _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 13: 34
        0
        never convinced, a disgrace it is a disgrace
      2. Togilen
        Togilen 28 November 2021 15: 07
        +3
        What kind of military? Were there fighting with the use of roof-breakers and these colander?
        "Uncle" do you even understand what you are talking about?
      3. Old tanker
        Old tanker 29 November 2021 06: 37
        +1

        You ask the tankers a shame or not. If there was no effect, they probably would not have done it, but as you put it, kaz also does not give a full guarantee.


        Tankers really do not like this "vegetable garden" on the tower. Very much interferes with embarkation and disembarkation. And if deformed, the lattice can generally clog in a burning tank. And few people believe in the effectiveness of the "birdhouse".
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 28 November 2021 13: 34
      +23
      Well, you have a KAZ. What's next? How much can it reflect? 2? 4? And if 6-8 arrives? The presence of KAZ will make it possible to live a little longer and not become invulnerable. Quite quickly, everyone will calculate its vulnerabilities and rebuild the methods of destruction. It's pretty straightforward. And the additional protection as sculpted and will sculpt. Because this is ADDITIONAL protection. There is nothing shameful here. It was and will be.
      1. _Ugene_
        _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 13: 39
        +4
        How much can it reflect? 2? 4?

        2? 4? what nonsense, much more, for example, each mortar KAZ Afghanit contains several dozen charges, but even if 4, then the vaunted Bayraktar will spend all the ammunition for 1 tank and fly away with nothing
        Quite quickly, everyone will calculate his vulnerabilities and rebuild the methods of destruction. It's pretty straightforward.

        Well, of course, and the KAZ developers will sit on the pope and do nothing? This is the eternal struggle between the shield and the sword.

        But to weld lattices on top is of course much more effective, I agree, high technology, ugh shame
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 28 November 2021 13: 51
          +6
          2 or 4 is just an image. Everything is being studied and new instructions for the destruction of complex targets are being sent to the troops. Weak areas, tactics. Grilles are additional protection. Do you understand the meaning of the word ADDITIONAL?)
          1. _Ugene_
            _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 13: 54
            +1
            when it is ADDITIONAL after KAZ, then it is really ADDITIONAL, and now it is a disgrace and not ADDITIONAL protection, firstly, the effect of it is VERY dubious, watch the video where our ATGM was fired first at the target without a protective grill, then with it, there was no difference at all, and secondly, the rocket will not necessarily fly into the tower, from above everywhere the armor is minimal, in short a disgrace, do not persuade
            And I'm not one of those who are sitting and all Russian hait, I really feel sorry for this that we are like beggars Syrians, but they are from hopelessness, and what are we from?
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 28 November 2021 15: 42
              +2
              What from what? I have already told you three times that this is additional protection that everyone always talks about. What are we from? How do we not buy Israeli states?) For a couple of baht?) There is a new arena. She is being tested. What well.
              1. _Ugene_
                _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 18: 12
                -1
                What from what?
                unclear? Why do we weld self-made hack with zero efficiency on drill equipment? from the stupidity, greed of officials? or something else?
                1. carstorm 11
                  carstorm 11 28 November 2021 18: 44
                  +6
                  Let's do it this way. I'll show you a photo of Soviet tanks in Afghanistan and you will think.




                  1. _Ugene_
                    _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 18: 53
                    +1
                    this only proves that in real combat conditions, with insufficient protection of the tank, any tricks are used, you can also show photos of tanks with sandbags, etc. near-zero, therefore it is not applied
                    1. carstorm 11
                      carstorm 11 28 November 2021 19: 03
                      +2
                      This proves that additional protection was sculpted, sculpted and continued. In the DB zone, the crews go to any lengths to add it somehow. You just need to clearly understand for yourself what I have already said ten times - this is additional protection. By definition, there is never enough of it. I'm not saying that KAZ nafig. But even with him, as soon as they find the pain points, the crews will start sculpting something on them again. In this case, we have a reasonable approach to test these ideas empirically. What's bad about it?
                      1. _Ugene_
                        _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 19: 06
                        +6
                        that's it, this
                        In the OBD area, the crews go to any lengths
                        they no longer have a choice, any available means are good, even with dubious efficiency, it is bad that such useless artisanal cheapies are officially put on military equipment in peacetime, once again - this is not additional protection, this is a disgrace for the whole world, in fact, our officials sign this in full of its helplessness against drone drone
                      2. carstorm 11
                        carstorm 11 28 November 2021 19: 08
                        0
                        Well, if you study this question, you will find out that this is just an attempt to study this option of protection. Just tests) Let's call it that. There is no seriality there and not even close.
                      3. _Ugene_
                        _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 19: 09
                        +2
                        tests are when they tested it at the test site and removed this shame, and then tanks in columns drive around and all of them are photographed
                      4. carstorm 11
                        carstorm 11 28 November 2021 19: 36
                        +1
                        And for God's sake) Personally, I do not see shame in this. I just do not tear this way of protection from others. Disguise. Smoke. Aerosols, etc. Each of these can help out at some point. I will leave aesthetics to those who see cars only in pictures.
                      5. Old tanker
                        Old tanker 29 November 2021 06: 44
                        0
                        This nonsense, without any tests, was invented by the commander of the Southern Military District, Dvornikov, and implemented by a strong-willed decision.
                        And surnames in Russia have always been speaking smile
                        True, the tankers are not laughing.
                      6. Barberry25
                        Barberry25 28 November 2021 22: 44
                        -2
                        the most important point is that in case of efficiency, such a system can be hung on all tanks in a week - the main thing is the presence of a welder, fittings and a circuit
          2. Togilen
            Togilen 28 November 2021 15: 10
            -5
            And from a tank that is burning fast with this additional "protection" you will be pulling a soldier out ... well, you won't, the ass is sitting on the couch
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 28 November 2021 15: 47
              +8
              Oh, how) well, my as you say oops tank school finished to begin with. And yours?) A burning tank damn it)))
              1. Togilen
                Togilen 1 December 2021 07: 41
                0
                she may have finished
            2. Ros 56
              Ros 56 28 November 2021 17: 26
              +4
              Guys, than to dog, it would be better to put on the shelves what you know about this danger and how to avoid it whenever possible. hi
              1. Togilen
                Togilen 1 December 2021 07: 42
                -1
                There is military air defense and aviation in the sky + electronic warfare. And you don't fucking think of bullshit.
      2. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 28 November 2021 14: 18
        -1
        Do you think this design is much more reusable? Or can it be changed by the crew on the battlefield after each strike?
        1. _Ugene_
          _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 14: 31
          -6
          what design?
        2. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 28 November 2021 15: 51
          0
          Is it possible to understand the elements of remote sensing?) I want to understand everything;
          1. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 30 November 2021 03: 08
            0
            Quote: carstorm 11
            I want to understand everything, the word additional is there in general, very few people understand?)

            Not only everything sad For me, at least glue and hang car mats in a pack. Some of the fragments will already be delayed.
      3. Uran53
        Uran53 28 November 2021 17: 06
        0
        Why explain to him if he looks at the tank like a woman on a dress, according to the principle "beautiful - ugly."
    3. Orange bigg
      Orange bigg 28 November 2021 14: 08
      +5
      Quote: _Ugene_
      until there is a serial KAZ with the protection of the entire hemisphere, and we will fence this disgrace, like the Syrians, but they are from hopelessness and poverty, and we are from what?


      We are waiting for the armature. By the way. Interesting changes have taken place in the design of the production version of the T-14 in comparison with the early parade version of the T-14.





      As we found out, the tank received new elements of armor, which now increased the resistance of the heavy combat vehicle to enemy shells. Moreover, the design of the tank's rollers has been changed, the external design of the front of the tank turret has been changed with an additional increase in its strength characteristics.

      https://avia.pro/news/rossiyskiy-tank-t-14-armata-prishlos-modernizirovat-obnaruzheny-glavnye-otlichiya-boevoy-i
      1. _Ugene_
        _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 14: 10
        +1
        judging by the official information and the location of the Afghanite mortars from above, he does not cover the tank, only an aerosol curtain from the threat from above, and I do not see any changes in this regard, but now it is from above that the main threat to tanks is
        1. svoroponov
          svoroponov 28 November 2021 14: 32
          +6
          Special smokes that blind the homing head
          infrared, ultraviolet and tele-guidance systems have already been developed and are being tested at the test site. Cover both vehicles and area. It was even shown on television.
          The grill is also a good thing, if the corresponding steel or alloy is in the form of plates of a certain thickness, then even tandem ammunition may not take it. On impact, it strongly deforms and does not turn out to be a strictly directed commutative jet. , and the second charge, if the grating is at a certain distance from the hull, is triggered ahead of time, which does not lead to damage to the armor by the weakened jet. My brother told me that he generally saw screens like those of an old Soviet box-spring bed. So there the rocket managed to throw a little before detonation and the jet did not hit forward but somewhere a little to the side of the trajectory and there was no damage to the equipment
          1. _Ugene_
            _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 14: 37
            -6
            firstly, it is unclear when to launch these aerosols, for good, as in the KAZ, the radar should track the threat from above and automatically shoot them, but I don’t see the upward directed radars there, and secondly, active protection and passive, you must agree, are not the same , in the first case, the rocket is destroyed, in the second, he launched an aerosol and pray that it would not hit
            in my opinion, for an ultra-modern tank just undergoing testing, it is not logical not to provide active protection from the most dangerous direction for it
          2. _Ugene_
            _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 15: 02
            0
            The lattice is also a good thing

            https://topwar.ru/93833-zaschitnaya-reshetka-ne-pomogla-kumulyativnaya-granata-iz-rpg-26-prozhgla-bronemashinu-naskvoz-video.html

            “As expected, the lattice screen did not completely save the car’s side from the cumulative projectile. He broke through the screen, and the cumulative jet burned through the car, coming out from the back side, ”- says the newspaper.
            The publication notes that “in the experiment, far from being the most powerful and modern grenade launcher was used, however, even this was enough for such a result”.
            Not only we have such results, protective grilles from ATGMs on armored vehicles have not taken root anywhere due to low efficiency, only they are welded on from despair, such as it will not be worse
            1. Roma 1977
              Roma 1977 28 November 2021 16: 22
              -2
              A randomly home-made grill on MTLB and a calculated grill of the Research Institute of Steel on a tank are a little different.
            2. svoroponov
              svoroponov 28 November 2021 16: 57
              -3
              Well, if steel 10 is 2-3 mm thick, then there is a grate, what is not. It will do for the effectiveness of the display.
              But if the lattice is made of certain special alloys 6-10 mm with different welding angles into the frame and possibly a profile, then you still need to see what the military is currently working on at the training grounds.
            3. D16
              D16 28 November 2021 17: 59
              0
              the cumulative jet burned right through the car, coming out from the back side, ”the newspaper comments.

              Before broadcasting this nonsense, take an interest in the temperature of the cumulative jet.
              1. _Ugene_
                _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 18: 01
                0
                what is there to broadcast if the star filmed a detailed video, all this "nonsense" was filmed on a high-speed camera and in slow motion you can see everything in detail
                1. D16
                  D16 28 November 2021 18: 04
                  -1
                  And the thermometer was attached to the shooting lol
                  1. _Ugene_
                    _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 18: 08
                    -2
                    here the temperature is not interesting, but the result - the effectiveness of lattice screens against ATGM is negligible
                    1. D16
                      D16 28 November 2021 18: 44
                      -1
                      An interesting process of "burning" the armor with a jet, the proper temperature of which does not exceed 400 degrees C. The effectiveness of lattice screens is of a probabilistic nature. Nevertheless, this increases the chances of survival of armored vehicles when hit by simple cumulative ammunition. For little money and pounds.
            4. AndreyS
              AndreyS 28 November 2021 19: 30
              0
              Quote: _Ugene_
              “As expected, the lattice screen did not completely save the car’s side from the cumulative projectile. He broke through the screen, and the cumulative jet burned through the car, coming out from the back side, ”- says the newspaper.
              The publication notes that “in the experiment, far from being the most powerful and modern grenade launcher was used, however, even this was enough for such a result”.
              Not only we have such results, protective grilles from ATGMs on armored vehicles have not taken root anywhere due to low efficiency, only they are welded on from despair, such as it will not be worse

              Well, then, dear, indicate what kind of armor the cumulative jet pierced: "... The test was attended by the developer of the grenade launcher Pavel Sidorov. The tested armored vehicle was the MT-LB transporter ..."At MTLB:" ...The vehicle has light armor, protecting against small arms fragments and shells, with a thickness of 3 to 10 mm made of steel and a maximum of 14 mm at the front of the turret.... "At the same time, the tower of the tank:" ...The turret armor belongs to the "semi-active type", in its front part there are two cavities located at an angle of 54 - 55 degrees to the longitudinal axis of the gun. Each cavity contains a bag (3 layers glued together) of 20 30mm blocks. The block had 21 mm armor plate, 6 mm rubber and 3 mm metal plate. 3 thin metal plates were welded to the armor plate of each block, which provided a distance between the blocks of 22 mm. Both cavities have 45 mm armor plate between the package and the inner wall of the cavity... "So maybe the grill over the turret of the tank makes some sense.
              Penetration Javelin, 750 mm., And armor penetration RPG-26, (at an angle of 60 ° from the normal) 220 mm. This is for you to compare the power of the cumulative jet.
          3. Reklastik
            Reklastik 28 November 2021 16: 41
            -3
            In 1945, the springs from the beds as a screen from the faust cartridges did not help Soviet tanks in Berlin ...
            1. svoroponov
              svoroponov 28 November 2021 17: 05
              +4
              Of course you can laugh, but if you think about it. The rocket speed is less than the projectile speed. Spring steel in the form of connected springs is very strong, but it is movable as a protection. The main thing is how this spring lattice will look like, the thickness of the spring rings, or the winding, etc. It will not be possible to burn it instantly, it is, moreover, like a screen, is mobile and has time to deform and change the direction of flight and, accordingly, the jet. The jet is effective if it strikes a surface at an angle of about 90 degrees to it. And if it goes with a small deviation, then its effect drops sharply.
              This is not my opinion, but specialists in the development of protection against anti-tank weapons.
              1. Reklastik
                Reklastik 28 November 2021 17: 06
                -2
                Was someone laughing?
          4. FrankyStein
            FrankyStein 28 November 2021 21: 52
            +1
            Modern ammunition detonates even when touched by the side surface, no deformation of the funnel will occur. And the cumulative awl flies out several meters, and even the removal of the grate a meter from the armor will not affect the result in any way. This collective farm is out of hope and the enemy is now aware.
            1. svoroponov
              svoroponov 29 November 2021 00: 02
              0
              Tell the Americans that. They also have protective screens on their armor. Probably for beauty.
        2. Sergey Melnik
          Sergey Melnik 28 November 2021 16: 36
          +1
          It is precisely the aerosol curtain that should be developed when protecting against laser-guided ammunition due to the deterioration of the laser itself in scattering and reflecting media, up to the complete failure of the system. The only thing that is difficult to overcome is the inertia of the flight of the rocket itself after launch, it will still fly into the point originally set, although it will no longer do the slide. In general, the priority solutions to the problem of dispersion and reflection
          1. svoroponov
            svoroponov 28 November 2021 16: 45
            +2
            During the slide, additional targeting is in progress - specifying the projection and location. The cloud disrupts this stage, and if the vehicle is even slightly in motion, the hit may most likely not be.
            The cloud is sprayed at a low altitude and looks like an air blanket, providing disruption of the silhouette of tele-guidance. At the same time, simultaneously with the cloud, something similar to sparks of a Bengal fire is triggered in it. which helps to disrupt guidance on
            infrared channel, possibly ultraviolet.
            1. Sergey Melnik
              Sergey Melnik 5 December 2021 16: 17
              0
              Quote: svoroponov
              During the slide, additional targeting is in progress - specifying the projection and location. The cloud disrupts this stage, and if the vehicle is even slightly in motion, the hit may most likely not be.
              The cloud is sprayed at a low altitude and looks like an air blanket, providing disruption of the silhouette of tele-guidance. At the same time, simultaneously with the cloud, something similar to sparks of a Bengal fire is triggered in it. which helps to disrupt guidance on
              infrared channel, possibly ultraviolet.

              I believe that they simply did not seriously deal with the problem of protection against destruction by such types of ammunition with their guidance and destruction features. But in principle, the problem is solvable, although the cost of protection systems increases very much, since it will more resemble aviation warning and protection systems in its principle of operation
        3. The comment was deleted.
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        5. Old tanker
          Old tanker 29 November 2021 07: 07
          0
          judging by the official information and the location of the Afghanite mortars from above, he does not cover the tank, only an aerosol curtain from the threat from above, and I do not see any changes in this regard, but now it is from above that the main threat to tanks is


          Note the two vertically directed aerosol combination protection units on the tower
    4. Yakuza
      Yakuza 28 November 2021 15: 35
      -2
      Maybe they were really going to attack?
    5. DymOk_v_dYmke
      DymOk_v_dYmke 28 November 2021 16: 09
      0
      Quote: _Ugene_
      like the Syrians, but they are from hopelessness and poverty, and we are from what?

      Because the danger of such a defeat has arisen recently, and the tanks are already on the battlefield.
      1. _Ugene_
        _Ugene_ 28 November 2021 17: 44
        -2
        for example, Javelin (it also falls from above) was put into service in 1996, but yes, for our Ministry of Defense 25 years is not long ago, another 20 years will be chuckled
        1. svoroponov
          svoroponov 28 November 2021 23: 21
          +1
          Javelin is not applicable in bad weather, with haze and fog, the Americans themselves admit it.
  3. Blackgrifon
    Blackgrifon 28 November 2021 13: 13
    +4
    Oh, these propaganda - "hundreds of tanks".
  4. kapitan92
    kapitan92 28 November 2021 13: 14
    +12
    Any means of protection are good if they protect the crew from the listed types of ammunition.
    1. loki565
      loki565 28 November 2021 14: 01
      +1
      Interestingly, if you put more bags with DZ on this lattice, you will be able to increase protection.
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 28 November 2021 14: 21
        0
        Yeah. And on top of the bags with DZ there are still bags of sand.
        1. loki565
          loki565 28 November 2021 14: 25
          +4
          Yeah. And on top of the bags with DZ there are still bags of sand.

          Well, they hang such on the sides, why can't they hang on the roof. Moreover, judging by the fastening on the straps, they are not very heavy
      2. Gvardeetz77
        Gvardeetz77 28 November 2021 14: 26
        +2
        If we make the grill "two-story", then the tandem ammunition is not so terrible, though it is possible that three-day power supplies will be adopted, well, then the decision to "weld" the third floor of the grill is clearly cheaper than R&D on new protection ...
      3. Pandiurin
        Pandiurin 28 November 2021 14: 39
        0
        Quote: loki565
        Interestingly, if you put more bags with DZ on this lattice, you will be able to increase protection.


        It depends on what to fence the defense against. If against an uav (barrage ammunition), a cumulative and an impact nucleus, then what has already been welded is quite effective. The cumulative jet from the initial obstacle loses its integrity, further, with increasing distance, it dissipates even more, and the distance there is very large.

        Presumably against this type of threat, the effectiveness of this protection is very high. And what are the bags for?
        They will not help from a land mine that has flown in from above, from the rest, and so it is enough.
        1. Yakuza
          Yakuza 28 November 2021 15: 37
          -2
          They will hit the engine even more efficiently
          1. Alexey G
            Alexey G 28 November 2021 16: 19
            -2
            So there is still a burner behind the tank! She will distract the racket on herself! wink
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 28 November 2021 21: 41
              0
              The problem is that fourth-generation ATGM systems such as MMP and Spike have the ability for the operator to guide the missile through fiber until it hits, and the operator will choose which part of the tank to hit - alas, this roof made of gratings against these complexes will be absolutely useless against a free-falling guided bomb with laser guidance MAM L and a 10 kg cumulative tandem warhead are also useless, since these bombs hit the side projections of the vehicle.
              1. Nikolaevich I
                Nikolaevich I 29 November 2021 14: 52
                0
                Quote: Vadim237
                useless against the MAM L laser-guided free-fall guided bomb

                A free-fall guided bomb? belay negative
  5. mark1
    mark1 28 November 2021 13: 14
    +5
    Well, if the structure does not fall and does not jam the hatch, then ... and when the remote sensing blocks are triggered, it can also collapse.
    An interesting piece of iron lying right on the DZ blocks - does it interfere?
    1. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 28 November 2021 13: 24
      0
      Quote: mark1
      when the remote sensing blocks are triggered, it can also collapse

      Well...
      If the remote control is triggered, then something flew into the tank. Anything can come off there, even the whole tower.
      1. mark1
        mark1 28 November 2021 13: 30
        +3
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        If the remote control is triggered, then something flew into the tank.

        And if the roof just fell, without DZ, is it from the wind? And how, in both cases, do you leave the tank, including the cannon?
        1. loki565
          loki565 28 November 2021 14: 22
          +1
          And if the roof just fell, without DZ, is it from the wind? And how, in both cases, do you leave the tank, including the cannon?

          Well, as a last resort, you can get out through the mechanical drive
          1. mark1
            mark1 28 November 2021 14: 24
            0
            I already called this option as a joke - many of the ex were offended
            1. Old tanker
              Old tanker 29 November 2021 07: 12
              0
              He just never saw a burning tank. So let him dream up.
    2. loki565
      loki565 28 November 2021 14: 06
      +1
      An interesting piece of iron lying right on the DZ blocks - does it interfere?
      how does it interfere? The task of the remote sensing is to destroy the cumulative jet, and where it is formed is no longer important, on the remote sensing itself or having already broken through the obstacle, this is how, in principle, the built-in remote sensing works
      1. mark1
        mark1 28 November 2021 14: 16
        -2
        Quote: loki565
        this is how the built-in remote sensing works in principle

        This is, in principle, but in practice, the energy of the explosion will go not upward but to the sides (the reflecting plate will rattle and fall), but what will happen to the neighboring unprotected blocks?
        1. loki565
          loki565 28 November 2021 14: 19
          0
          As well as on the side screens, the neighboring ones fly off.
  6. Alien From
    Alien From 28 November 2021 13: 14
    +2
    Video war, information war, financial war ... why people can't live in peace ... request
  7. pytar
    pytar 28 November 2021 13: 17
    0
    To protect the upper hemisphere, you will obviously have to develop special protection! What is certain to put on weight! KAZ looks more promising, but additional booking is also needed! The problem is not only in the extra weight, but also in the fact that the center of gravity / CG / machine becomes higher! Required fundamentally new lineups taking into account the threat from above! recourse
  8. Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 28 November 2021 13: 22
    +13
    The best remedy for Bayraktars is normal air defense.
    The tank must have at least a Derivation. Better yet, Thor.
    Although this "canopy" has a right to exist, if it increases the chances of survival of the crew.
    1. impostor
      impostor 28 November 2021 13: 54
      0
      Well, it is unlikely that a Turk is working from his ceiling, anyway less than 3000, there will be enough Tunguska, not even an air defense system, but machine guns
      1. stankow
        stankow 28 November 2021 15: 09
        +1
        From the ceiling when reconnaissance. mission. And when with weapons and up to 2000 m is unlikely to rise.
    2. Alexey G
      Alexey G 28 November 2021 16: 21
      0
      Give the tank a scout drone for guidance and an anti-aircraft missile through the bore!
  9. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 28 November 2021 13: 23
    +4
    Such protection, although it looks funny, is quite an effective and cheap substitute for KAZ. Since they do not overlap the upper hemisphere yet. It is not necessary to scoff. Anything that reduces the effectiveness of enemy weapons is useful ...
  10. Roma 1977
    Roma 1977 28 November 2021 13: 32
    +8
    The cumulative ammunition has a rather low power. Therefore, steel gratings (destroying a thin-walled cumulative funnel), or tangential firing of the ammunition, drastically reduce their effectiveness. This is not a land mine. Once again, the grating does not shield from the cumulative jet, but simply does not allow it to form, destroying the hull, whether it is a Javelin or any other cumulative ammunition. Simple and cheap, but effective solution.
    1. Kaw
      Kaw 28 November 2021 16: 02
      0
      Very ineffective, and most likely completely useless against tandem ammunition. IMHO
      1. Roma 1977
        Roma 1977 28 November 2021 16: 10
        +1
        How does a tandem ammunition differ from a non-tandem ammunition if the missile breaks in half?
        1. Kaw
          Kaw 28 November 2021 16: 24
          +1
          I do not even know what to say. What kind of breaking?
          The Research Institute of Steel considered that the deformation of cumulative funnels, when hitting such lattices, occurs in 50% of cases. But this is for conventional cumulative ammunition, and in tandem ammunition there are two funnels, the first may be deformed, and the second will definitely work as a whole, because when the first funnel hits a hard surface, the fuse will go off. IMHO
          1. Roma 1977
            Roma 1977 28 November 2021 16: 50
            0
            That is, the second funnel will be triggered when the first funnel touches the grate. So, its focal length will be at a certain distance from the tank's armor, and the penetration efficiency will sharply decrease due to the dispersion of the jet on the way to the armor?
    2. Sergey Melnik
      Sergey Melnik 28 November 2021 16: 54
      0
      Everything is correct, the cumulative jet should be formed clearly on the armor itself, the further from it the efficiency decreases, and almost several times with a distance of every centimeter. From this, a funnel is formed on the cone of the projectile, for greater concentration, preventing it from being sprayed over the surface
    3. Old tanker
      Old tanker 29 November 2021 07: 34
      0
      Effective against RPG shots where the funnel is at the head. ATGMs usually have a charge behind the homing unit (if any) and the control unit with steering machines. They break through / move apart the grate and the charge works on the armor.
      And the grill saves from an RPG shot if the grenade fuse got between the grill plates and did not work. Only then is the cumulative funnel destroyed. If the fuse hits the grating plate, the charge detonates normally and the cumulative jet is formed of the correct shape. But here the fact that the grating is located at a certain distance from the armor plays a role (in this case, it works as an anti-cumulative shield). When using tandem ammunition, the grill will not save.
      1. Roma 1977
        Roma 1977 29 November 2021 07: 51
        -1
        If the fuse is triggered on the grate, then both the first and second charges of the tandem ammunition are triggered at a distance of a meter from the armor, and on the armor is also fragmentarily installed DZ. If in this case the cumulative funnels of the ammunition (which are very thin) are destroyed, then the cumulative jet does not occur at all. So? I suppose that in about 50% of cases of hitting the lattice, the turret armor is not penetrated. That is, according to the cost / efficiency criterion, a correctly calculated grid is an effective solution. The information is, of course, closed, but indirectly it is pumped over.
        1. Old tanker
          Old tanker 29 November 2021 08: 18
          0
          The first charge of the tandem ammunition partially destroys and bends the grate, which in most cases allows the second charge to work on the armor.
          If the efficiency of the grids were 50/50, then all our tanks would have been hung with them. But, precisely because of their low efficiency, they are installed only in the transmission area. Where penetration of armor does not cause death of the crew.
          I will repeat. The grill is effective against a regular single-block RPG grenade.
          1. Roma 1977
            Roma 1977 29 November 2021 09: 36
            +1
            And also in the transmission area and the booking is much weaker than the frontal (as well as on the roof of the tower). But if in the transmission area the lattice is 20 centimeters from the side, then above the tower - in a meter. And for the focus of the cumulative jet, every centimeter is important. It makes no sense to weigh a completely modern tank with grilles, since in the front projection it is likely to keep hitting even tandem ammunition.
            1. Old tanker
              Old tanker 29 November 2021 11: 56
              +1
              The side of the tank along its entire length from bow to stern has the same thickness. But to save weight, only the location of the crew and the b / c is covered with dynamic protection. If the grilles were effective enough, they would cover the entire side.
              Well, the focus of the jet is formed practically along the edge of the cumulative funnel. And the distance to the armor does not affect its formation in any way. So "every centimeter" is absolutely not important here. Here, several tens of centimeters are already playing a role, and preferably meters to weaken the effect of the jet itself.
  11. Pavel57
    Pavel57 28 November 2021 13: 33
    +7
    And Turkish tanks are not afraid of anything.
    1. Vasily Onischuk
      Vasily Onischuk 28 November 2021 13: 34
      +2
      because they do not exist and, therefore, they have nothing to fear.
      1. stankow
        stankow 28 November 2021 15: 13
        +4
        There is. M-60 and even m-48 are still in service! Level t-64 and t-54. Modern Leopards 20%.
    2. Roma 1977
      Roma 1977 28 November 2021 16: 12
      +1
      The use of 3rd generation ATGMs is not planned for Turkish tanks. However, they burn from the second, and even from conventional RPGs, like all other tanks in the world.
  12. Observer2014
    Observer2014 28 November 2021 13: 59
    +6
    And if you put on a camouflage net on this "crate". In the summer, even the crew will be comfortable. The shadow of a thing under the scorching sun costs a lot. And here it is also useful for business. And I don't see any "shame" here. The protective grill is removable. It is put on as needed. There will be a full-fledged KAZ with protection of the upper hemisphere. Well, they will remove it.
  13. Prisoner
    Prisoner 28 November 2021 14: 01
    +4
    "more than a hundred T-72". Nowhere do I lie so much, as in war and hunting. (with)
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 28 November 2021 15: 40
      +3
      https://lostarmour.info/karabakh/

      And here everything is counted with proofs. And suddenly it turns out that they are not really lying.
    2. sharp-lad
      sharp-lad 28 November 2021 22: 00
      0
      On fishing, they lie even more. lol
  14. Yaro Polk
    Yaro Polk 28 November 2021 14: 19
    -1
    Why is it not clear, one might think that fools in Russia have welded on some sort of lattice ... without testing .. haha.
    1. Kaw
      Kaw 28 November 2021 16: 06
      -3
      It is precisely in Russia that this is easy. Someone has adopted the Armor, the guns of which cannot shoot down anything, but it cost the state much more than this grate.
      1. Yaro Polk
        Yaro Polk 28 November 2021 17: 09
        0
        https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%8C+%D0%BC+%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BB
      2. Yaro Polk
        Yaro Polk 28 November 2021 17: 15
        0
        Well, that's it, Sumerian, you won, in Rashka and in the SOVK, there was and is, the most crap weapon in the world, American, European, Israeli, Turkish is a hundred times better, calm down.
        You can safely attack the damned Rashka, our khan ...
        The Kremlin is already in your hands, a little bit is left ...
    2. Old tanker
      Old tanker 29 November 2021 07: 38
      0
      Why is it not clear, one might think that fools in Russia have welded on some sort of lattice ... without testing .. haha.


      It was precisely the tests at the behest of General Dvornikov.
  15. maksbazhin
    maksbazhin 28 November 2021 14: 37
    0
    I would like to clarify two points:
    1) can a baykatar rocket really hit a tank (there was information that the missiles themselves were rather weak and in the NKR mainly baykatars aimed barrage ammunition.
    2) the lattice screen, of course, is bullshit and it will not smear any cumulative formation, but they pulled "sun visors" on the screen, which not so long ago discussed here whether, for example, he could deceive the GOS by changing either the signature or temperature or what else the target.
    1. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 28 November 2021 16: 03
      0
      Quote: maksbazhin
      can he, for example, deceive the GOS

      Bayraktar has a television camera with some kind of resolution that allows the operator to recognize the tank at a decent distance.
      1. maksbazhin
        maksbazhin 29 November 2021 07: 04
        0
        I will clarify: Javelin seeker, they wrote that it reacts to a thermal contrast target.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 November 2021 21: 57
      -1
      "Can a bayraktar rocket really hit a tank?"
  16. p0pulivox
    p0pulivox 28 November 2021 14: 38
    -3
    Quote: _Ugene_
    until there is a serial KAZ with the protection of the entire hemisphere, and we will fence this disgrace, like the Syrians, but they are from hopelessness and poverty, and we are from what?

    And we know from great intelligence and great wealth. winked
    I don’t want to repeat myself, but I’ll still write: not only from a tandem warhead, but also from an ordinary cumulative warhead, this nonsense will not always protect ...
  17. Diverter
    Diverter 28 November 2021 16: 05
    +4
    I read the comments and remembered military photos of Soviet tanks from the streets of Berlin. In those photos, on Soviet tanks, everything was not screwed on. And bags of rubble and beds, etc. and so on. Therefore, the question arose for those who criticized this decision on Russian tanks. If you are put into a tank now and sent into battle, which tank will you choose before the battle? With or without roof bars? The answer is obvious. So this is the answer to criticism.
    1. Old tanker
      Old tanker 29 November 2021 08: 02
      -1
      The answer is really obvious for me, who took part in the hostilities. Definitely without such a birdhouse on the roof.
  18. Gardener91
    Gardener91 28 November 2021 16: 06
    0
    Maybe It's: https://warspot.ru/2914-plazmennaya-oborona-fantastika-ili-realnost
  19. Mogicanin
    Mogicanin 28 November 2021 16: 21
    0
    Better than nothing.
    Allowing hundreds of MAM-Ls to be shot at a tank without a grill will pierce 90 times. And with the grill, at least there is hope of 50/50.
    1. Momento
      Momento 28 November 2021 17: 48
      0
      most likely it is a psychological defense. By the way, this is also important, but should she reflect 50% of mothers? especially since they do not fall vertically.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 November 2021 22: 01
      0
      No, this guided bomb hits at an angle of up to 45 degrees in the side projections of the equipment and it has 1000 mm armor penetration, whatever you say, but after such a hit the cover and this lattice canopy over the tower will really protect only from the rays of the sun.
  20. ja-ja-vw
    ja-ja-vw 28 November 2021 17: 48
    +1
    Quote: AUTHOR
    MAM-L work in Nagorno-Karabakh:

    belay
    MLRS!
    And where is "MAM-L work in Nagorno-Karabakh" where
    Quote: SavunmaSanayiST
    MAM-L became the killer of more than a hundred T-72

    ??
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 November 2021 22: 04
      -1
      Basically, Bayraktars worked on armored vehicles with these guided bombs in Karabakh.
  21. SPQR
    SPQR 28 November 2021 21: 20
    +1
    In short, without the normal work of reconnaissance + artillery + missilemen = cleaning up possible places and shelters for operators of Javelins and other dregs, why should tanks be allowed into battle at all. Is that how it turns out?
  22. Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 28 November 2021 21: 51
    0
    When you read some expert (or Ex Perda), you need to understand that behind EACH work you can see the ears of the writer. Moreover, that a writer is PAYED for his work, it is natural to understand that often a writer writes exactly what he was paid for, otherwise they will stop paying him, and NO ONE cares about the truth, or no. So that's it. Ours in Iraq hung about the same grilles on a fairly cardboard Stryker. The result is more than one and a half hundred hits from the RPG-7 and NOT a SINGLE penetration. So, I understand that RPG is not Hellfire, and not Tou and not Maverick. Nevertheless, such a lattice may well save both the tank and, most importantly, the crew. And the cost of such a grill is LOWER than the cost of one shot from an RPG. I sincerely hope that as ours tested the Stryker grilles before hanging them on the striker and sending the Strikers and their crews into battle, yours did the same - put the grill, banged into it with something like a Cornet, and the grill held out. And to criticize without knowing the results of either tests or combat use is from the series "Baba wrote with a pitchfork on the water." Skepticism is good, moreover, it is necessary, but any criticism should be based on the results of TESTS, and not on what is called guesstimate in America. It is a combination of the words "guess" - to guess, guess, and "estimate" - to guess, to estimate. I mean, Guestimate is an estimate without any facts. This is approximately what many "experts" are doing. If such a lattice, placed vertically, can withstand the hit of the Cornet, then it should be placed horizontally, in theory, to protect the tank from the Javelin. POINT.
    1. svoroponov
      svoroponov 28 November 2021 23: 56
      0
      By the way, from javelins, infrared lights help if they are turned on and oriented accordingly. A blot in the receiving head of the rocket leads to the disruption of the image and the rocket simply flies along the trajectory without guidance. It's just that these searchlights either do not turn on or they are simply already broken by close explosions, bullets and shrapnel.
    2. Old tanker
      Old tanker 29 November 2021 08: 08
      -1
      ... Ours in Iraq hung about the same grilles on a fairly cardboard Stryker. The result is more than one and a half hundred hits from the RPG-7 and NOT a SINGLE penetration.

      Following your words, apparently this nonsense is also well paid for?
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 29 November 2021 22: 05
        0
        I understand that making jokes and showing how smart you are (Smart as Wutka ??) is easier than typing "Strikers against RPGs" in any search engine. https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/m1126-strykers-in-combat-experiences-lessons-01323/ By the way, the data is outdated, now there are more than 150 hits in strikers from RPGs and ANY armor penetration. (I mean Strikers with grilles and hinged armor). So educate yourself, and before you write something, work hard, sir, to read something smart.
        1. Old tanker
          Old tanker 29 November 2021 22: 52
          -1
          How much did you get for advertising a Western unfounded article, if not a secret, of course?
          In English, I only read and translate with a dictionary. Therefore, google translate to help. But the article is so-so agidka. No documented statistics, no research details. So the bars to the Strikers will wake up))))
        2. Old tanker
          Old tanker 29 November 2021 22: 54
          -1
          Oh, did you get paid for the distribution of a Western propaganda article too?
          Then yes - lattices to help the Strikers!
          1. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 29 November 2021 23: 21
            0
            The bars help our Strikers, but you, and you at least fight on foxes. If you still do not understand, I am not a "observer" from some magazine where they pay me. I am just a veteran of the US Army who has been rammed for 6 years in Iraq and Afghanistan. MOS - 68W. So keep on acting up and remain ignorant. Me - on a drum and even on a tambourine. If you don't know how to use a search engine - ask, kind people will show you. And to people like you to explain something and try to enlighten at least somehow, it's like throwing beads in front of a certain animal ... So good luck.
  23. EMMM
    EMMM 29 November 2021 02: 37
    0
    Believe it or not, this is the moment of the decline of tanks in general, like cavalry in 1941. The world is changing!..
    1. EMMM
      EMMM 29 November 2021 02: 51
      0
      By the way, the "Bayraktars" will not have long to live, possible military actions are turning into completely different planes. Today, at the strategic level, there is no room for a hot war (with the use of ultra-modern weapons. There are local conflicts solved by the Kalash or M-16, and serious issues will be resolved in a completely different way and using a different technology.
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 29 November 2021 08: 11
      0
      That's right, replace them with trucks with no armor at all.
  24. alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 29 November 2021 06: 49
    0
    The new is the well forgotten old. I read the memoirs of the tanker Bryukhov. So he describes how, in preparation for the storming of Berlin, they welded on their tanks ordinary metal beds with iron nets. In urban battles, the faustics were very annoyed. The effectiveness of such protection was about 15-20% but still better than nothing. It's a shame that we didn't bother to think about defending against the javelin.
  25. EvilLion
    EvilLion 29 November 2021 08: 10
    0
    If we compare the cost of a tank with the crew and the cost of a piece of iron, then even a few deflected missiles and bombs, and they throw anything from drones, pay off the idea, in the city it also protects against shots from above.
  26. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 29 November 2021 11: 39
    +1
    Give the tank a scout drone for guidance and an anti-aircraft missile through the bore!

    Bayraktar can also be shot down with existing ATGMs (with some modification) mounted on a tank turret - like on North Korean tanks.
    For such a simple target as Bayraktar, the cannon of a tank with the appropriate ammunition may also be effective.
  27. Hitriy Zhuk
    Hitriy Zhuk 29 November 2021 11: 52
    0
    laser guided missile

    So it is, Shtora (T-90 has "eyes") is.
    Shamanize the radius, turn it on with a laser light.
  28. Hitriy Zhuk
    Hitriy Zhuk 29 November 2021 11: 57
    0
    And what about the signal jammers, or not to train fighters on drones?
  29. Hitriy Zhuk
    Hitriy Zhuk 29 November 2021 12: 00
    0
    Quote: Vadim237
    over fiber

    Are there kilometers of "fishing line" there? belay
    Cool progress I described the loop, the first were wired, then wireless, and then bam, "not again, but again."
  30. OpmoDoigy
    OpmoDoigy 29 November 2021 12: 06
    0
    Lattices will help maximum from javelins, spikes undermining the tank's bosch.
    And UAVs will not be saved from missiles. MAM-L missiles can be directed 45 degrees to the tank turret, where it is fully open.
  31. Desert Battleship
    Desert Battleship 29 November 2021 17: 10
    0
    If you put on top of this lattice a banal thin layer of mineral wool, then the thermal seeker of the javelin will be guided anywhere but not into the tower. The blow will most likely hit the motor compartment as the warmest one. Now, if the ammunition is controlled by the operator, then oh.
  32. tank64rus
    tank64rus 29 November 2021 18: 06
    0
    Well, where are aviation, chemists with smoke screens and engineers with masking nets, traps, shelters, mock-ups, etc., where air defense, electronic warfare, etc. The tank alone does not fight, except in modern crafts about war and in stupid use in the conflicts of our time. Well, as for the visor, it's a shame when the army team do it and put it on. The answer must be one - equipping Russian tanks with serial KAZ. If they start groaning again, which is expensive, then form tank crews exclusively from majors. Here they have both speed and andrealin and everything will go off scale. And the tanks will quickly, quickly equip the KAZ and the Armata will be put into production.
  33. LAWNER
    LAWNER 30 November 2021 05: 23
    0
    I don’t believe that the Turkish military missed the opportunity to test such protection .... Maybe they simply did not expect that Ivan would return to the defense of the Second World War.
  34. Last centurion
    Last centurion 30 November 2021 13: 05
    0
    It’s a no brainer that air superiority wins in modern warfare. Aviation and drones. If it is not there, then all the rest of the scrap metal turns ... into scrap metal. (The Strategic Missile Forces does not count. He shob the world into dust, including any air superiority). But I'm wondering how to leave the tank when a rocket hits this lattice and bends and fiddles ...
  35. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 1 December 2021 13: 26
    0
    It’s a no brainer that air superiority wins in modern warfare. Aviation and drones. If it is not there, then all the rest of the scrap metal turns.

    This theory (about all-crushing air superiority) is already 100 years old and despite that it has never been confirmed anywhere. You cannot think that the brain of people is like a hedgehog.
    Ever since the era of the civil war in China in the 30s to the era of wars with Hezbol, the Islamic State, Yemen and Nagorno-Karabakh, victory is possible only where there is superiority in the ground forces.
    No aviation and drones are able to compensate for the superiority of the enemy's ground forces.