Military Review

To whom is check, and to whom is checkmate?

249
In general, we live in a strange world. There would be a reason to raise a noise - and it will be raised. These are the modern laws of the infosphere.


The main instigators of the noise, oddly enough, are the Americans. There is not a single specialized publication that does not pay attention to the events in Dubai. Well, we are also no exception, we will also express our point of view.


To begin with, I'll take a few quotes from Brad Eastwood, writing editor of 19FortyFive or 1945. A fairly balanced media, without distortions.

“The Su-75 Checkmate, a fifth-generation stealth fighter, is being touted as cheaper than the F-35 Lightning II. The cost of the Su-75 is estimated at about $ 30 million, while the F-35 can be purchased for about $ 80 million. The Russians believe that countries with an average but growing air force, such as the United Arab Emirates, India and Vietnam, will want to buy it. "

Let's look honest and straightforward. There was a model at the air show. No longer made of plywood, most likely sheathed with metal. But - the layout. And we can say that the layout may cost $ 30 million, but we will not. When in 2023, as promised, the Su-75 will fly, then, perhaps, it will be possible to talk.

You can talk about what characteristics can be if ... If the engine is ready, which is "product 30", if then, if this ...

The plane may indeed be able to carry 7 tons of weapons over a distance of 2000 km at a speed of 1,8M. But we will talk about this in full in 2023. When there will be something to talk about. There is no reason yet.

The Americans have a reason. History with the model of the aircraft at the airshow, the American media used it to the fullest in order to advertise its F-35. This is also normal and expected, even though the comparisons are often more than clumsy. After all, when the Su-75 becomes an aircraft, it will belong to a different class.

“The first flight is scheduled for 2023 and full production is scheduled to begin in 2026.
Despite the fact that a delegation of high-ranking officials of the Emirate inspected the plane at the air show in Dubai, there are no orders yet. And the Russians tried their best to make just 12 of their other fifth generation fighters - the Su-57. Thus, production estimates for Mata may be optimistic. "

Here one can agree with the Americans. Indeed, if you remember the hype with the Su-57 and how it all ended, then no one will be surprised if history repeats itself with the Su-75.

In fact, there is nothing special about showing the concept layout. If you don’t shout about the fact that in just 10 years the plane will go to the troops, then everything is within the framework of conventional marketing. At air shows, as well as at car dealerships, many manufacturers show concepts. That is, what can go into series. And they carefully study the reaction of potential buyers. If the buyer is ready to vote with a dollar - green light for the concept in the series. If not, why translate resources?

Of course, in the story of the Su-75, in its possible history, the Su-57 did much harm, around which there was a lot of noise, a lot of comparisons. And how did it end? Nothing. The plane has been mutilated since 2010 and so far there is little sense. The Indians refused to work together because they believe that Russian-developed combat avionics, radars and sensors do not meet the standards of a fifth-generation combat aircraft. Well, there are also complaints about the engine, although it is difficult to say why the AL-41F1S1 did not suit them. The engine is quite good. Indians can do this themselves - good luck.

So all these comparisons of the Su-75 and the F-35 are nonsense. The American plane has one undeniable advantage: it does. He is flying. Released in a series that the Su-57 and Su-75 are unlikely to shine. Yes, a lot of credit goes to American managers, who can easily sell the drug for sharks to the Eskimos, but nevertheless.

Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Turkey, Great Britain. Japan, South Korea and Belgium are next in line. Israel generally used its own avionics, software and weapon systems, resulting in a candy that makes life difficult for enemies in full.

That is, the F-35 is, it is being developed and modernized. The fact that it will be very difficult to catch up with him is understandable. And here these "ifs" begin. If there are orders for the Su-75, if the plane turns out to be really successful (again, as to judge now, on theoretical calculations), if it flies, if the engine is adjusted, if the Su-57 really costs $ 30 million less, than the F-35 ...

Too many components.

But the main component that calls into question the whole case with the Su-75 is in the Far East. In Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

Over the past week, many information channels have begun to circulate rumors that the assembly of "several samples" or that, as some super-patriotic channels have stated, "the first batch of aircraft" has been started. They refer to the words of the head of the UAC, Yuri Slyusar.

I will allow myself to question what has been said and written, since at KNAAZ itself, perhaps, some preparatory process is underway, but there is no information on this topic yet.

In general, the situation at the manufacturer is very, very alarming. The main question here is: who will assemble these planes? To reduce the number of people reduced, today the need for workers at the enterprise is estimated at 750-1000 people. And the list of vacancies is quite extensive, you can be sure. But experts are in no hurry to plug the gaps, since the level of salaries does not correspond to the present day.

Careers

I talked with the residents of Komsomolsk-on-Amur, and you can read a lot on this topic on social networks. Yes, not everyone writes adequately, but I think that in many ways they are right: living in the Far East today is very difficult. And if everyone says out loud that 40-45 thousand is nothing at the current prices, it means that it is so.

For comparison, I looked at vacancies in my region. A milling cutter of the 5th grade costs from 70 thousand, and you can get a job on watch and for 85-90 thousand. A 5th grade boring turner in Voronezh costs 60-70 thousand, in Lipetsk at NLMK - from 90 thousand. But our prices for living are not comparable to the Far East, whatever one may say.

KNAAZ offers 45 thousand. It is understandable why people are not standing in line at the personnel department; it is not clear how this problem will be solved. Lack of working hands will lead to another "shift to the right". And the blame for this will not be the United States or the sanctions, but the greed of the company's management. Good hands are expensive. Today this fact, which only an outright fool will dispute.

And the entire Internet is clogged with complaints against the management of KNAAZ, which regularly deprives workers of earnings under various pretexts. And this is suggestive.

Whose hands will build these planes? The same as the Su-35 and Su-57? Three shifts? Well, we passed it. At KBKhA, after which dozens of rocket engines for space launch vehicles were turned off at the plant. Because everything has ceased to fly.

In general, having shown the model at the exhibition, having amused ourselves with videos and numbers in comparisons, we plunge into the world of everyday working days. Yes, in 2023 we will see how well everything turned out to be thought out and calculated. And let's talk in detail, when the brand new Su-75 takes off and shows everything that it is capable of.

So far, I draw your attention, no one rushed to place orders for the Su-75. All, including the listed "potential buyers", preferred to look from the outside, what would happen in the end. Will it be assembled, how and when it will take off, how it will fly. What will be equipped.

It makes sense. Indeed, those who have money today find it easier to buy the proven F-35. Those who have less money can buy the equally proven, but cheaper Su-35. Who can wait will wait.

The main thing is that no one today will risk the dollar to buy, don’t understand what. A dummy with numbers of promises - it really costs very little. Now, if there was a flying prototype, it would be more significant. But there is no flying prototype, and in the next 3-4 years, in the current situation, there will be no.

If we recall the malicious story with the Su-57, then there were also many sparks and special effects. The sense, however, did not work out at all. The plane has not yet come out as promised, and therefore lost its battle for the Su-57 market with a bang. Let's see how the Su-75 will have it. Two years is not such a period in fact.

Then it will become completely clear and understandable who will be in check and whether checkmate will follow.

The only positive I got out of all this is the commercial. Well done, jokes in every shot, and, I think, even in the West they understood them. You can be glad for the authors.



But the product is not strong for advertising, although it is also a video. The main thing is that in 2023 the plane should really fly and fly beautifully. Then it will be possible to dream of orders.

And if the deadlines again fly, if they "move", or if instead of the declared equipment there is "and this is still flying" and so on (see Su-57), then, of course, there will be no orders. Because all over the world people who make loud statements, make a fuss, and then do not fulfill the declared, are called approximately the same. And they are valued just as low.
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  1. Cowbra
    Cowbra 19 November 2021 05: 08
    .
    Released in series

    To begin with, it would be necessary to remind that it is not serially produced and cannot - because it could not pass the final tests, and there are not even 21 identical F-35 aircraft in the world - they are produced in pre-production batches. What a trifle, right?
    1. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 19 November 2021 06: 44
      +30
      Quote: Cowbra
      To begin with, it would be necessary to remind that it is not serially produced and cannot - because it could not pass the final tests, and there are not even 21 identical F-35 aircraft in the world - they are produced in pre-production batches. What a trifle, right?

      F-35 produced 700 units, this is a series.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Snail N9
          Snail N9 19 November 2021 09: 16
          +26
          In Russia, it has already become not just a tradition, but has become part of the system: with different plans, road maps, projections, mock-ups, cartoons - on the one hand, to cover the grandiose cuts of money, and on the other hand, to imitate a grandiose activity, the output of which is in the form of a result or another unfinished, or simply "zero" - "zero".
          1. Alexey Sommer
            Alexey Sommer 19 November 2021 10: 16
            .
            Quote: Snail N9
            In Russia, it has already become not just a tradition,

            How easy it has now become, a simple office manager can use the Internet to turn into a tough specialist in aerospace technologies lying on the couch with a beer, you can make your own opinion on what you don’t understand at all, about those who really know how to do something and you’ll get nothing for it. will not..
            Convenient, isn't it?
            1. businessv
              businessv 19 November 2021 20: 39
              +13
              Quote: Alexey Sommer
              Convenient, isn't it?

              Very comfortably! But why only the office manager? Our officials for example! They also don’t know a damn thing, not even what they are obliged to know in the service and openly mock people who depend on them. I do not mean the middle and lower tiers, I am talking about those on whom the execution of the legislators' decisions depends. And nothing happens to them for that! Interesting, right? In Sevastopol, two sent directors completely killed the famous war monument of 1853-54. Panorama view and Historical Boulevard by trailer. Those living in any city will find similar examples. This I mean that the author is 100% right to say that the future will show who Rabinovich is to whom in the case of the SU-75, but there are not many chances that he will take off at the specified time!
          2. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 19 November 2021 12: 11
            +10
            Quote: Snail N9
            In Russia, it has already become not just a tradition, but has become a part of the system: with different plans, road maps, projections, models, cartoons ... to imitate a grandiose activity, the output of which is, as a result, either another unfinished one, or simply "zero" - "zero" ...
            Well, don't tell me! An example of this is the downed AES Tselina-D. Silently, in an adult way (without dust and noise - as Lelik said laughing ) at 500 km (and not at 247, like the Yankees) jewelry destroyed this KA-target. And they didn't even say a word! The Yankes would not have squealed - we would not have known. That is, they can, whenever they want. yes
            1. Bashkirkhan
              Bashkirkhan 19 November 2021 12: 48
              -6
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              Silently, in an adult way (without dust and noise - as Lelik said

              Wow, no dust or noise. Sputneg was shot down by 500 km with a crossed orbit, and the ISS passed through the cloud every 90 minutes, the cosmonauts performed ISS maneuvers several times a day and a cover plan 2 times a day, when the cosmonauts transferred to the manned Soyuz and Dragon spacecraft.
              1. Boa kaa
                Boa kaa 19 November 2021 13: 35
                +17
                Quote: Bashkirkhan
                Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                Silently, in an adult way (without dust and noise - as Lelik said

                Wow, no dust or noise. Sputneg was shot down by 500 km with a crossed orbit, and the ISS passed through the cloud every 90 minutes, the cosmonauts performed ISS maneuvers several times a day and a cover plan 2 times a day, when the cosmonauts transferred to the manned Soyuz and Dragon spacecraft.

                1 km is about 500 km above the orbit of the X-150B (37-353 km). Therefore, we chose the target spacecraft at this altitude. To make the show more convincing ... So that the partners do not have their heads swinging.
                2. ISS made only 2 corrections, not several. And the distance between the orbits is 60 km. So, you shouldn't sing from someone else's "Voice ..." It's time to abandon the habits of the perestroika period - to unconditionally trust the Western "voices" and not trust your leadership ... (You are not in church, Shura. You will not be deceived! (C) )
                3. In the internet there is a video on the shelter of astronauts in the descent vehicle Dragon. There, Ms from TsUPA (Cape Canaveral) in a pleasant voice (at the astronaut's request) replies: - You can leave the descent vehicle. There is no more danger. And this is after the first orbit of the ISS in a new orbit (albeit the second in a row). So, do not rush to talk about the "cloud" and bad Russians.
                4. The Yankees have not yet removed from orbit the cloud of their needle-type submunitions, which they "experimented" with in the 80s. But they are silent about this, and at every opportunity they blame us. Well, people like you howl at them in unison. Tobaccos!
          3. Barberry25
            Barberry25 19 November 2021 13: 01
            +3
            or maybe the fact is that all projects take TIME? that's why it turns out that years pass, the process goes on, gives a result, But because of the gradualness in the changes, you do not see them .. a banal example is the Oryol-Livny road, which was previously "repaired" only Santa Claus with ice and snow, but in a few years they did it very well .. and what is the end result? people say to questions about the road .. "but what? she was always like that" ... yeah .. it was always 4 meters wider, with solar-powered lanterns and limit posts .. so with airplanes .. the Su-57 was developed for 10 years, deliveries began .. after five years everyone will shrug their shoulders and say "why is that."
            1. shahor
              shahor 19 November 2021 23: 35
              +6
              Quote: Barberry25
              in five years

              The Su-57 was already 5-7 years late with its introduction into service, and after another five years ... well, it has always been that way.
              1. Barberry25
                Barberry25 21 November 2021 20: 21
                -8
                and what is not at once for 20 years?
                1. shahor
                  shahor 22 November 2021 17: 23
                  +2
                  Quote: Barberry25
                  and what is not at once for 20 years?

                  Basically, you are right. The American F-22 and Su-57 were created as stealth air superiority fighters. They are similar in appearance - the laws of physics and aerodynamics are the same for everyone. But the American began to enter the combat units of the US Air Force back in the 90s of the last century, and Su is not yet entering. The Americans already have a new NGAD program, one of the elements of which will be a new aircraft (the prototype aircraft has already flown), and our product 30 for the Su has not yet gone into production. And by the time it goes, the Americans will have launched a new generation of adaptive engines, the prototypes of which are already being tested in iron by both Pratt and GM (XA-100 and XA-101). As always, American generals will choose the best option, and not take that the defense industry was "shmogla" ...
                  1. Barberry25
                    Barberry25 22 November 2021 17: 35
                    -1
                    and the Americans know that their plane has already flown?) By the way, they said the same about the F-35 that it will replace everything that is possible and in general a new wunderwolf ... and the result is such that they do not know what to do with it and for some reason instead of "we will write off all the planes and there will be a single f-35" they began to buy f-15/16 new upgrades .. why would suddenly?
                    1. shahor
                      shahor 22 November 2021 17: 55
                      +2
                      Quote: Barberry25
                      By the way, they said the same about the F-35 that it will replace everything that is possible and a new wunderwolf in general ... and the result is such that they do not know what to do with it and for some reason instead of "we will write off all the aircraft and there will be a single F-35"

                      Well, the F-35 is not entirely in the subject - it is a different aircraft for its purpose, and it cannot be compared with the Su-57. What to do with it - the Americans know, if you read American - puzzle yourself, and learn about the Block 4 modification, why, among other things, for this aircraft, adaptive engines are being developed in the new modification, a feature of which, among other things, will be 3 flows of blown air - I wonder if you can guess why this third stream is needed by the plane and what does it mean? And product 3 - I think it will be finished sooner or later, maybe a good reliable engine will turn out - but this is not a breakthrough, not a new generation. As for the F-30 EX - a wonderful plane, 15 tons of load, the most modern electronics, the most powerful combat computer in the world today - why not with us? A great addition to the F-13,5.
                      1. Shahno
                        Shahno 22 November 2021 18: 01
                        0
                        // the most modern electronics, the most powerful combat computer in the world today - why not with us //
                        Secretly, for the sake of this, everything was started ... and now a little flight of thought, what is the most important thing in the 6th generation?
                        And if it fights back as a replacement for F16, it will be generally fine.
                        People came to Lockheed who see the future in their own way ... and strive to bring it to iron. Well, in general, they brought it, of course, initially there was a task, to forget the classic cycle. And they did it.
                      2. Barberry25
                        Barberry25 22 November 2021 18: 02
                        -1
                        but a few years ago it was proposed to replace all the aircraft with a single f-35, they even wanted to write off the warthog, not that the f-15 ... that's the whole point ... well, that's if you don't forget that we have there is no prophet in his homeland)
          4. Sergey39
            Sergey39 19 November 2021 14: 33
            +7
            The practice of putting military equipment into operation suggests that you are cunning or, according to the people, you are lying! (((
          5. DMi
            DMi 19 November 2021 17: 12
            0
            The grandiose cuts are just in the USA. The F-35 program is just one example of such cuts. And there was also Zumwalt, there was Littoral Guano, there was a railgun ... Their name is legion. So, comparing the weapons programs of the Russian Federation and the United States, those who love everything American are better off not using the word "saw cut" at all. How they steal in the US in the defense industry did not even dream of ours)
            1. ZeeD
              ZeeD 19 November 2021 21: 10
              +2
              What the film of the amerios themselves subtly hints at about how (it seems) Bradley did.
      2. ViacheslavS
        ViacheslavS 19 November 2021 10: 27
        +16
        This is the "paradox" of the F-35, they were released 700+ and all this is not mass production, different batches and an incredibly many different technical problems. But most likely it shows more the complexity of the product, the complexity of international cooperation in this project. Well, the cost of the aircraft is not small, after all, from 80 to 100 million per unit, not including the associated costs during operation, these are huge sums.
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 19 November 2021 15: 38
          -7
          Quote: ViacheslavS
          Well, the cost of the plane is not small, after all, from 80 to 100 million per unit

          This is the cost of the F-35 without an engine. Just a minute.
          Apparently, taking into account this fashion, the cost of the Su-75 in
          $ 30 million is also indicated without an engine.
          And then everything becomes like the truth. bully
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 19 November 2021 18: 38
            +8
            "This is the cost of an F-35 without an engine. For a minute" ///
            ----
            The Pentagon buys the F-35 at a price of 81 million including engine

            When the department finalized a deal for Lots 12-14 in October, it announced that it would reach its unit cost goal a year early in Lot 13, with those jets set to roll off the production line in 2021. The price per F-35A is set to lower from $ 82.4 million in Lot 12 to $ 79.2 million in Lot 13 down to $ 77.9 million in Lot 14.

            Price without engine - for foreign buyers.
            Since the assembly of the aircraft is carried out both in Italy and in Japan.
            And they get the engines separately.
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 19 November 2021 18: 42
              0
              Are you saying that the Pentagon is interested in the Su-57? wink
              If not, then you have confirmed what I wrote. For:
              Quote: voyaka uh
              Price without engine is for foreign buyers.

              We are talking about foreign buyers. hi
            2. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 19 November 2021 18: 52
              +7
              The engine's price is not added to the 81 million for foreign buyers.
              A recalculation is in progress. The total purchase price for a foreigner is not an amount
              "for the Pentagon" + "engine price".
              The price of the engine for the F-35A is 20 million. But foreigners get planes at prices for
              +5 - +10 million more than in lots for the Pentagon.
              1. Alex777
                Alex777 19 November 2021 19: 36
                +1
                Quote: voyaka uh
                A recalculation is in progress. The total purchase price for a foreigner is not an amount
                "for the Pentagon" + "engine price".

                It is obvious. I didn't measure it out in grams. He talked about the order of the numbers.
                I was more confused by the price of the Su-75 at 30 million. So thoughts arose.
                So there is no need to protect the F-35 from me. Let it be for itself. wink
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 19 November 2021 19: 56
                  +7
                  Su-75 is a vague idea.
                  Real and very important for Russia is the Su-57.
                  And his first short series of 4 pieces, which should leave the factory by the end of the year.
                  If there is no Su-57, there will be no Su-75 either.
                  1. Alex777
                    Alex777 19 November 2021 21: 24
                    -3
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    If there is no Su-57, there will be no Su-75 either.

                    Yes, there are a certain number of people who want the Su-57 to be absent.
                    But life is difficult.
                    Topic: do not dig a hole for another, you yourself will fall into it, no one has canceled. wink
                    But seriously, we have a lot of things to do, invent and organize in order to reach the level that will allow the Su-57 and Su-75 to be mass-produced. And I am glad that, although with difficulty, we are moving in the right direction. hi
                2. bayard
                  bayard 21 November 2021 22: 23
                  +4
                  Quote: Alex777
                  I was more confused by the price of the Su-75 at $ 30 million.

                  Such a price can only be if:
                  - AL-41F-1S engine,
                  - AFAR radar designed for the MiG-35 - without any R&D, just take and install,
                  - cockpit, avionics, wing - from the Su-57.
                  And without any = any additional options (basic equipment).
                  And even then it will rather be a price for oneself (domestic market).

                  But the worst thing is that the production itself in Komsomolsk-on-Amur is not being prepared, and if you remember that there were reductions quite recently (and at the same time they tried to completely curtail the production of the Su-34 in Irkutsk), then we can observe absolutely opposite words and statements, ACTIONS .
                  Including, when we are denied access to imported components, we “for some reason” close the factories for the production of aircraft equipment, carry out constant castling and “optimization”. And then "suddenly" ... the planes are not built, the plans are thwarted, the specialists scatter ... and the "Chekmet" appears, from which everyone laughs ...
                  And they laugh not because the layout is bad, but because the layout.
                  And they laugh doubly when they look back at the Su-57. Which is already late.
                  I was just late with the delivery to the troops.
                  And he will no longer have any "second stage engines".
                  And it seems that the vaunted and very promising, according to applications, "Squirrel" did not appear.
                  It's just that no one was going to do anything.
                  They just mastered it.

                  Therefore, it is not surprising that even the post-war An-2 cannot be recreated.
                  A propeller-driven aircraft for initial flight training cannot be made in 20 years.
                  The aviation industry of the Russian Federation has been killed. Purposeful and consistent.
                  Friendly teamwork.
                  And now you want to - there is no one to restore.

                  But how do you want to be mistaken ...
                  1. Osipov9391
                    Osipov9391 21 November 2021 23: 59
                    +1
                    Su-34 is made in Novosibirsk. And he is generally the # 1 candidate for discontinuation. As outdated and even obsolete aircraft class.
                    Export deliveries for 25 years have not taken place yet, unlike the Su-30 of which hundreds of vehicles have been sold.
                    Su-34s were ordered several dozen more, and that's still good - in order to keep NAPO afloat.
                    There are no further prospects. If modernization is carried out with the replacement of outdated avionics, for example, the I-255 "Platan" optical system is removed from the fuselage belly into a suspended container and worn depending on the task at hand, then the appearance of the aircraft itself will disappear altogether. The output will be the Su-30SM. It makes no sense for him flying at high altitudes to carry a heavy armored cabin.
                    If we carry out a radical modernization, lengthen the fuselage, it is possible to include a compartment for weapons, etc. - then at the exit there will be a completely different aircraft that will have to be designed from scratch. All other systems, engines, etc. The old will not work anymore. It is not even unified with other machines of the family to a significant extent.
                    Su-34 today is a purely front-line bomber. Not a fighter like the Su-30 and not a missile carrier like the Tu-22M3.
                    With those TSA that he carries him against protected targets, a fighter cover is imperative. Even though that's not the point. He will have to go into the radius of a medium / large air defense system to attack a target where the probability of the enemy launching missiles is already significant.
                    So if a few dozen of them are made for videoconferencing, then it will still be good for the plant.
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 22 November 2021 01: 13
                      0
                      Quote: Osipov9391
                      Su-34s were ordered several dozen more, and that's still good - in order to keep NAPO afloat.

                      They wanted to shut down production in Novosibirsk altogether (they really mixed up the factories) and transfer them to piece production in Komsomolsk (4 - 6 units per year), they even brought them to the workers to look for a new job ... But praise Akhura-Mazda, they succeeded replay. The order has been extended.
                      Now 20 more units have been ordered. Su-34 in the same form, and then there will be an order for 80 pieces. Su-34M - they promised to present a prototype of the Su-34M before the end of this year, while silence. There should be AL-41F-1S engines and updated avionics.
                      In addition, all previously produced Su-34s will have to be upgraded to the level of the Su-34M during a mid-life repair.
                      In total, there should be at least 200 such aircraft to replace the Su-24M.
                      Quote: Osipov9391
                      for example, remove the I-255 "Platan" optical system from the belly of the fuselage into a suspended container and carry it depending on the task at hand

                      Why would the system built into the fuselage be brought into a container and occupied an extra suspension unit, if this option is always needed, and the internal volumes allow it?
                      And for a tactical bomber of this type, the cockpit is much more convenient than the cockpit of the Su-30SM. Especially if there is a modification for the MPA.
                      Quote: Osipov9391
                      If we carry out a radical modernization, lengthen the fuselage, it is possible to include a compartment for weapons, etc.

                      If we are talking about an MRA aircraft with internal weapons bays, then it is better to immediately take the Su-57 glider as a basis, but set the cockpit like that of the Su-34. This will naturally expand the fuselage, increasing its internal volume, and lengthening the fuselage at the same time, we will get a compartment for two "Zircons" and at least two more explosive missiles for self-defense. For the MPA, such an aircraft, in the future, will be more interesting. But it will take time for R&D and testing / debugging.
                      therefore, as a quick solution to the MRA aircraft - the Su-34M. Even without additional manipulations with the fuselage, it will be able to carry two zircons on an external sling. And even up to 4 - 6 explosive missiles - for self-defense.
                      He is capable of this with the existing engines, but with the AL-41F-1C it will be even better.
                      So I would not put an end to the Su-34.
                      And its chief designer also believed that he would fit very organically for the MPA - as a carrier of the air version of Onyx or Zircon.

                      But the Kremlin's plans are vague and sometimes paranormal. Wait and see .
                      1. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 22 November 2021 02: 31
                        +1
                        Let's clarify a few things.
                        The I-39 "Shkval" was on the Su-251. In some ways it is analogous to the I-255 "Platan" with the Su-34. But the Su-39 is an anti-tank attack aircraft / light fighter and such a system is fundamentally necessary on it. The plane is working on the battlefield. Therefore, he needs an optical sighting system as an aiming system for Vikhr missiles. He had means of protection against MANPADS.
                        The radar or other sighting systems ("Hod", "Mercury", etc.) were suspended under the fuselage, depending on the task and conditions.
                        If there is a risk of meeting fighters and drones, or if an anti-ship missile ship needs to be attacked, the radar is suspended.
                        If you need to find armored vehicles or a bunker in a mountain gorge at night, they hang up the "Mercury". Etc.

                        On the Su-34, these optical systems, even though they are built in, even in a suspended container, are in fact not needed. If you work on protected targets.
                        Simply due to the fact that when this optical system is able to work and show you something - the plane will already be within the radius of destruction of the medium / large air defense system. And there is already a great risk of being shot down.
                        Against ships, this system is generally meaningless.
                        Survival and mission completion depends on the capabilities of airborne radar and Air-to-Earth missiles. The further they shoot, the better.
                        Therefore, you will not need "Platan" in any form.

                        The capabilities of the Su-34 in the fight against air targets are nonexistent. Even the R-73 without NSC (it does not exist) does not realize all qualities even as a defensive weapon.
                        Moreover, there will be some opportunity to fight off fighters only when returning from a mission when the fuel is depleted and the ammunition is used up. The mass is much less.
                        If the attack of enemy fighters occurred while approaching the target or approaching the target, both the mission and the aircraft will be lost. Since the maneuverability is no longer there.
                        And with such missiles as the R-27 / R-77 and such an on-board radar as the Sh141, he can only fight off any "Phantom" at once, and that's it.
                      2. bayard
                        bayard 22 November 2021 04: 58
                        0
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        On the Su-34, these optical systems, even though they are built in, even in a suspended container, are in fact not needed.

                        I think in the modernized version all the shortcomings of the set of weapons indicated by you will be eliminated. In fact, when creating the Su-34, it was conceived as a continuation of the idea of ​​the MiG-27 - a fighter-bomber / front-line bomber with an armored cockpit ... in fact, it is a heavy attack aircraft. The rich Soviet Union could afford that.
                        Today the armored cockpit seems like an overkill, but since it is part of the aircraft's power set, it is easier and even cheaper to leave everything as it is.
                        Another thing is the composition of avionics. I think a lot can be changed in the modernized version. And first of all, the BRLK.
                        And for the MRA, the idea of ​​integrating the Belka radar into the Su-34 airframe may be interesting, though without "meter" inserts in the slats (which is apparently impossible), but nevertheless - all-aspect, which is equivalent to a search radar with a circular view. And for self-defense, such an airborne radar would be ideal, because it will be able to hit the target / reflect the blow from any angle.
                        Unless, of course, "Squirrel" is / turned out / alive.
                        I regard the Su-34 as a convenient platform for a promising medium-range MRA and YES aircraft. Such an aircraft can be obtained quickly using existing weapons and equipment that are in serial production. This will make a very good MPA aircraft.
                        And in the long term - the next stage, it would be advisable to build an MRA aircraft based on the Su-57 airframe, but enlarged, with a cockpit a la Su-34, with a larger weapons compartment, a longer fuselage and more powerful engines. Ideally - with P579-300 engines. And with a maximum takeoff weight of 70 - 80 tons. It would have a combat radius one and a half times greater than that of the Tu-22M3, it would carry two Zircon (or an analogue) and explosive missiles.
                        But this is the second stage.
                        Now it is necessary to build MRA on the Su-34M. But the composition of the avionics will have to be supplemented / changed for this.
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        such an on-board radar as Sh141 he can only beat off from which "Phantom"

                        THIS radar was outdated at the time of the launch of the Su-34, but for lack of a better ... everything is as it is. But the decision to upgrade the entire Su-34 fleet to version M should fix everything.
                      3. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 22 November 2021 14: 59
                        +1
                        If these shortcomings are removed, the output will again be something similar to the Su-30SM.
                        There was also a Su-33KUB with the same crew position. He was rejected. Although they should have done the usual tandem. But they also abandoned it in the end, and after 10 years they took the MiG-29KUB as such.
                        China also rejected this layout and refused to buy the Su-33KUB / technology for it. Having bought an ordinary Su-33 from Ukraine and a certain package of documents from Russia, having made
                        the usual tandem cockpit on its two-seater deck aircraft.
                        What he was supposed to be in the Russian fleet.

                        India also did not dare to use the Su-34. The Bramos missile is to be carried by the classic-style Su-30MKI.
                        There were attempts to hang an analogue of this missile on the Su-33 back in the 90s, but this is purely for fear, because neither the control system, nor the radar of this aircraft in the form that is, do not allow it to be used at all.

                        So it is better to create a naval missile-carrying aircraft on the basis of the Su-30SM or Su-33 if we consider it as a carrier-based one.
                        The latter can also be a tanker like the Su-33 and Su-30MKI.
                        But the Su-34 is deprived of this opportunity.
                      4. bayard
                        bayard 22 November 2021 17: 11
                        0
                        The Su-34 is seriously heavier than the Su-30SM, it carries more fuel and more built-in equipment, so it is much better for MPA - both the range is longer, and the payload is higher (up to 12 tons), and there is a lot more built-in equipment, which means it is not necessary occupy suspension nodes with additional containers. He needs an update of avionics and new engines. Moreover, the AL-41F-1C engines are not so much for increasing power / thrust as for increasing the resource and a longer overhaul period.
                        And you can use it as a tanker, if you wish, too. But for this it is better to have regular tankers on the shelves - the very Il-78MD90A.
                        So as a carrier of air-launched Zircons or Onyxes, the Su-34M will be much more useful. And he will be able to freely take on 2 "Zircon" \ "Onyx", and in overload and at a relatively short distance, even 3 pieces. - so thought the Chief Designer. Klimov wrote to me about this, he met with him while he was alive.
                        But the Su-30SM \ SM2 is best used in Naval Aviation as air superiority fighters, and in the case of strike missions, equip them with Kh-35 and Kh-31 missiles. It'll be enough .
                        And as a carrier of the air "Brahmos", the Indians had to very seriously strengthen / strengthen the Su-30MKI glider and make a special reinforced pylon ... And even that did not help. So we had to urgently compose a lightened version of "Brahmos" with a smaller diameter and weighing about 2,5 tons ... The warhead had to be lightened too.
                        So it does not roll the Su-30SM as a carrier of these missiles. He is a fighter, and there is no need to disfigure him, strengthen, make him heavier for tasks that are not characteristic of him, when there is an airplane ready for such tasks. He (Su-34M) can handle it.

                        And if we again have our own carrier-based aircraft, then the existing X-35 and X-31 will be enough for their armament. Moreover, the latest modification of the X-35 has a range of up to 500 km. And let basic aviation, surface and submarine ships work with heavy anti-ship missiles.
                      5. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 22 November 2021 18: 20
                        0
                        If we take the Su-34 that is today, its capabilities and tasks are not much different from the Su-39 attack aircraft.
                        They have similar aiming equipment. And they carry approximately the same armament at the same number of suspension points +/- one.
                        The only advantages of the Su-34 in this comparison are its supersonic speed to get out of the attack, the crew of two is able to distribute tasks and an impressive range.
                        There are no other benefits.
                        In terms of its maneuverability, armament, capabilities of the radar / OEPS, the Su-39 can fight off fighters and destroy any air target.
                        Economical R-195 engines with reduced IR signature, protection against TGSN missiles.
                        Therefore, the "Super Rook" does not need supersonic speed.
                        High automation and computerization reduced the crew to one pilot.

                        He does not actually burn kerosene, but only sniffs 2500-3000 liters when refueling. Therefore, it can be based closer to the target on unpaved airfields and the loss in the radius in front of the Su-34 is compensated by this.
                        And it is also compensated by the fact that in the absence of aviation kerosene, the Su-39 can be refueled with diesel fuel from the tankers of the Ground Forces.
                        Well, the price / maintenance / simplicity is about 8-10 times lower than that of the Su-34.

                        And we can only have Su-24M, Su-33 and MiG-29K tankers. But in practice it doesn't work.
                      6. bayard
                        bayard 22 November 2021 18: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        If we take the Su-34 that is today, its capabilities and tasks are not much different from the Su-39 attack aircraft.

                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        The only advantages of the Su-34 in this comparison are its supersonic speed to get out of the attack, the crew of two is able to distribute tasks and an impressive range.
                        There are no other benefits.

                        In fact, it takes up to 12 tons of combat load. But this is with underfilling of fuel and for a smaller radius.
                        The Su-39 was very promising and I would not mind resuming their production, if it was possible - it's time to update the Su-25 fleet.
                        But this is by no means an alternative to the Su-34, which, after modernization, promises to acquire completely new qualities and combat capabilities.
                        Moreover, the production of the Su-34 is well established and in the current version it costs less to purchase than the Su-30SM and even more so than the Su-35S.
                        I see a great potential for modernization in the Su-34.
                      7. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 22 November 2021 23: 40
                        +1
                        The Su-34 can take much more load, only the number of rockets on the suspensions will not increase. For example 4 X-58 and 4 R-27 and 2 R-73.
                        The Su-39 will take the same amount. And that's just a few tons.
                        It doesn't matter which plane will carry them and at what speed.
                        If we are talking about unguided bombs or some kind of heavy missiles, then yes.
                        It will be borne by the one with an impressive combat load.

                        At the price of the Su-39, it would be about 34-30 times cheaper than the Su-8 or Su-10.

                        Two pilots who flew the Su-24 and one technician from this plane tell me that the Su-34 has no future, they say, an endangered type of technology.
                        Such are their words.
                      8. bayard
                        bayard 23 November 2021 00: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        Two pilots who flew the Su-24 and one technician from this plane tell me that the Su-34 has no future, they say, an endangered type of technology.
                        Such are their words.

                        This is because of the modern fashion for MFIs. But the Su-34 is precisely a tactical bomber. It takes more and carries further than any MFI, and after modernization it will do it even better.
                        All the more so if an MRA aircraft appears at its base.
                        MFI Su-30SM and Su-35S will never be compared with it in shock capabilities.
                        But they have their own tasks.
                        With the new avionics and new engines, he will be able to fight off enemy fighters much better than now, and he will deal much better with ground / surface targets.
                        And there will never be a universal pilot - both a fighter and a striker - completely different skills. And since universal pilots do not come out, then the MFI itself is not universal in everything - it will always be a universal mediocrity against a professional.
                        This plane already exists, and it will be LONGER. It has its own niche, and this niche can be seriously expanded.
                        So we need to expand. Simply because they ALREADY exist and you need to use them to the fullest.
  2. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 19 November 2021 05: 09
    +2
    And that KNAAPO is the only aircraft plant in Russia?
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 19 November 2021 05: 21
      +19
      discussing emptiness is an empty occupation ...
      1. NDR-791
        NDR-791 19 November 2021 06: 10
        +11
        Quote: Dead Day
        discussing emptiness is an empty occupation ...

        When in 2023, as promised, the Su-57 will fly, then, perhaps, it will be possible to talk.
        Everything is said right in the article.
      2. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 19 November 2021 07: 44
        +6
        But it (emptiness) is infinite. This means that you can endlessly discuss it!)
        This has its own charm) laughing
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. Snail N9
        Snail N9 19 November 2021 09: 31
        +2
        How empty? There are so many joyful squeals from any "news" about another "unparalleled in the world" - let the people rejoice. In our country, as usual, one of the "professionals" or "pro-government" will blurt out about "plans for greatness" or "next achievement" on paper or in the form of a model, so hurray-patriots immediately perceive this as already existing, accomplished, that will raise the country's prestige to unprecedented heights, and help pile pendo ... m, which is not a reason to be proud.
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 19 November 2021 12: 29
      +4
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      And that KNAAPO is the only aircraft plant in Russia?

      For some reason, it also seems to me that the Amurtsy will not pull in two branches.
      Most likely, the Su-75 will be given to a company near Moscow, because the author of the rights - to the Far East with labor resources - is "empty snipe." In view of the fact that the Su and MiG were united, and the MiG is now headed by Sukhovets Korotkov, it is most likely that they will be assembled in Lukhovitsy or Zhukovsky.
      Of course, I could be wrong, but there are no orders for the MiG-35 yet, and it is unlikely that there will already be. And leaving many thousands of established production organisms without work is nonsense! Therefore, the Su-75 is a direct road to the Moscow region. And everyone will be happy. laughing
      AHA.
      1. Barberry25
        Barberry25 19 November 2021 13: 02
        0
        well, the MiGars still have a moment-41, but I don't think that they will refuse to download ... the main thing is that the KB does not suffer
      2. Alf
        Alf 19 November 2021 20: 14
        +4
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        And leaving many thousands of established production organisms without work is nonsense!

        Does the example of an aircraft plant in Samara say anything?
        1. Hitriy Zhuk
          Hitriy Zhuk 21 November 2021 00: 07
          +2
          Quote: Alf
          Does the example of an aircraft plant in Samara say anything?

          The example of privatization and production management throughout the country speaks volumes.
          Perhaps these "dryers" are needed only for a hasty evacuation from the Kremlin to the west.
          Too much "they build with one hand, demolish with the other."
      3. Marlene Bagautdinov
        Marlene Bagautdinov 21 November 2021 01: 37
        +3
        Where to collect in Zhukovsky !? In Nestle?
        in our country, the creation of the Aviagrad is reduced to
        building-up of the last glades with shopping centers and multi-storeydrmami. construction. Well, and to the shredding of the rest of the forest under the road to the airport.
  3. Uran53
    Uran53 19 November 2021 05: 23
    +12
    Roman went too far. Why did SU - 57 buried? Initially, it was planned to produce it with a first stage engine, then to install "product 30". And the preparation of equipment for the production of a modern aircraft is a very expensive and slow business. These are not lathe machines to put in an open field. The Americans, too, with their F - 35, have been adjusting the issue for more than one year, and as a result they issued a "miracle weapon" with a whole bunch of sores. Moreover, their industry "perestroika" has passed. Even Europe started talking about creating its own combat vehicle.
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      19 November 2021 15: 48
      +9
      Quote: Uran53
      Why did SU - 57 buried?

      Didn't bury it. On the contrary, if you delve into past publications, then my screeching about "all the best and more" is heard systematically and regularly. When not just a car goes, but with a TEM engine and a TEM AFAR, I will be the first to take up the accordion.
      1. Uran53
        Uran53 19 November 2021 17: 28
        -3
        In Soviet times, there was a rule: the percentage of innovations in new technology should not exceed 10%, since otherwise there would be great difficulties both in production and in the development of the troops. The Su-57 is a fundamentally new vehicle. And the problems with setting up production are big. After all, no one will put a crude engine on a fighter, first it will be tested on the stand, then on an experimental plane. Give it time and everything will be. PS I dare to suggest that ROFAR will be put on the SU.
  4. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 19 November 2021 05: 45
    +9
    I think it will be like with Armata and SU 57, it is expensive to buy for myself, but to pay for a foreign customer for ourselves and we would not do something for ourselves.
    1. Barberry25
      Barberry25 19 November 2021 13: 08
      -1
      expensive equipment requires a lot of preparation. So it is not worth waiting for hundreds and hundreds of tanks as well as planes a year.
  5. samarin1969
    samarin1969 19 November 2021 06: 11
    +28
    KNAAZ offers 45 thousand. It is understandable why people are not standing in line at the personnel department; it is not clear how this problem will be solved. Lack of working hands will lead to another "shift to the right". And the blame for this will not be the United States or the sanctions, but the greed of the company's management. Good hands are expensive. Today this fact, which only an outright fool will dispute.

    The eternal theory of paired cases ... Recently I had a conversation with a friend from those places. He quoted this "manual" rather viciously. "If you don't want 40-50 thousand? Then the Moldovans and the Chinese will build planes for you." To be honest, I didn't really believe it. It turns out that "optimization" can even get to such a strategic industry in all respects. request
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. novel66
      novel66 19 November 2021 07: 41
      +27
      qualified Chinese will not go (only a few spies), let alone qualified Moldovans - there are no aircraft builders even in the songs of the minstrels. stupid people bosses are everywhere
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 19 November 2021 07: 52
        +1
        Quote: novel xnumx
        stupid people bosses are everywhere

        And do you have a "friend from those places"?
        Healthy rocketman hi laughing
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 19 November 2021 07: 55
        +18
        Quote: novel xnumx
        skilled chinese won't go

        Today they are already running home from our factories, even going on strike. Regarding 40-45, we have 48 average salary at our enterprise, in fact 32-35 maximum.
        On a regarding the question in the article
        Good hands are expensive

        then where to get them, good ones? The system of vocational education has been destroyed, alas. Therefore, there are no specialists.
        1. Gaersul
          Gaersul 19 November 2021 08: 52
          +18
          Regarding 40-45, we have 48 average salary at our enterprise, in fact 32-35 maximum.
          Greetings. We are at the same level now. This is Moscow, if anything. To be fair, it should be noted that before the middle of this year it was 48-50. But after completing the order, the salary was cut.
      3. samarin1969
        samarin1969 19 November 2021 13: 29
        +13
        Quote: novel xnumx
        qualified Chinese will not go (only a few spies), let alone qualified Moldovans - there are no aircraft builders even in the songs of the minstrels. stupid people bosses are everywhere

        I absolutely agree. hi This is empty leadership rhetoric. Therefore, when I caught horse mackerel, there was a conversation - I did not really believe. It turned out that in an expensive land in high-tech production there is a really insane attitude towards workers.
        1. novel66
          novel66 19 November 2021 13: 36
          +11
          everywhere, believe me, the time has come for managers, not production workers, and they really do not understand how valuable a frame with 15-20 years of experience can be, and why not replace it with something cheaper
    3. Runner2022
      Runner2022 19 November 2021 07: 49
      -7
      Pff ... F-35 collected half of the world and nothing, everything is fine)
    4. Snail N9
      Snail N9 19 November 2021 09: 46
      +8
      And the Indians. The Hindus are usually still remembered by the management on such an occasion (to invite to work instead of the local population who disagrees with the conditions and salaries). However, the Severnaya Verf and the Admiralty Plant already have the "sad" experience of inviting, as they considered the working Chinese and Vietnamese to be a "bowl of rice". Those, having learned about the working conditions and the offered salaries, twisted their fingers to their temples, saying for this the remuneration that you offer, look for those who wish in Bangladesh or work yourself ...
    5. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 19 November 2021 12: 01
      +15
      Quote: samarin1969
      It turns out that "optimization" can even get to such a strategic industry in all respects.

      And you read what the people working in other industries write. Recently I read what was going on in Russian Railways, my hair sometimes stood on end. In the energy sector, optimization was carried out in many places. The same crap everywhere. All these successes, about which the guards are trumpeting, cause nothing but irritation. No single successes change anything in general. Economic stagnation and falling living standards of the bulk of the population amid growing income stratification.
      1. Eroma
        Eroma 19 November 2021 19: 33
        0
        In St. Petersburg, only comrades from Central Asia respond to a salary of 50-70 thousand laborers, and then they think whether it will be difficult or not! Locals even refuse to talk for that kind of money! The salary of a driver of category C, interesting from 70 thousand, while watching the schedule, if it is very stressful, then also only visitors are ready to try.
        About a salary of 45 thousand for specialists, somewhere in the Far East, it's hard to believe! In the first place, where are there so many specialists to dictate conditions? (It is clear that the plant has been since Soviet times, but 30 have passed since Soviet times and specialists are already retired) from other regions for such a salary, no one will go and it is unlikely that guest workers will be used in the actual secret production! I think in the article on the level of salary something is confused
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 20 November 2021 13: 10
          +3
          Have you been monitoring vacancies for a long time? Promoter, you will be very surprised. It seems that some people have completely lost touch with reality. Apparently the euphoria from the gratuitous highly qualified labor force inherited from the USSR has not passed yet. Probably they think that there are still a hundred people for one workplace outside the gates. And everywhere in all industries it is like that. A few months ago I came across a discussion of vacancies in IT. There people were crazy about the requirements for a specialist at the level of the proposed salaries. And the most interesting thing is that there are such vacancies everywhere, even that in general nichrome does not go into any frame, in Moscow. In Moscow, Karl! Where the demand for IT specialists is always high and the average salary level is the highest in the country.
          1. Eroma
            Eroma 20 November 2021 13: 47
            0
            Current information. Workers are now roughly the same, regardless of their specialty: a loader, a driver, a manager (green), an accountant (not a chief) have approximately the same salary. People with a specialty do not want to change their occupation and, for example, do not go to general laborers, if even the salary there is a little higher, but are looking for vacancies in their specialty, or something related. Even if you include any smart turners and machine operators in the Red Book, it is very difficult to find such specialists and you cannot hire them for 70 rubles for sure! I can't say about IT, but who are right with their heads, they work for very decent money (they just have acquaintances), some generally live well.
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 20 November 2021 13: 54
              +5
              Quote: Eroma
              People with a specialty do not want to change for activities and do not go, for example, to a handyman, if even the salary there is a little higher

              How do you want? It's quite normal.
              Quote: Eroma
              Even if you include any smart turners and machine operators in the Red Book, it is very difficult to find such specialists and you cannot hire them for 70 rubles for sure!

              Well, the vocational school system was destroyed, the factories were destroyed, and the labor resource inherited from the USSR is not endless. These stupid security guards can yell as much as they want about getting up from their knees and about factories with one and a half workers on a screwdriver assembly as a symbol of the revival of industry. Those who actually work in production say that the situation is extremely bad.
              Quote: Eroma
              I can't say about IT, but who are right with their heads, they work for very decent money (they just have acquaintances), some generally live well.

              I was not talking about the income of IT specialists, but about the exorbitant wishes of employers.
      2. Klonser
        Klonser 19 November 2021 23: 28
        +7
        I agree about Russian Railways and energy. At Russian Railways, my wife works in the energy sector. The pros dispersed (the salary is such that even the Uzbeks will not go). But the managers optimize everything for a salary (their own) of 200 thousand. And then they will not care what they all start pouring in. They will "work" in another place. And everywhere it is. It is difficult to wait for breakthroughs when there are no specialists. It's good if in 10 years SS 75 will give birth. Although it's hard to believe.
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 20 November 2021 13: 14
          +3
          Quote: Klonser
          I agree about Russian Railways and energy. At Russian Railways, my wife works in the energy sector.

          This is what they can do. And this sometimes throws out people not according to the law. With threats, they are forced to sign on their own.
  6. SergKam
    SergKam 19 November 2021 06: 42
    +19
    Sometimes one gets the feeling that all the Armats and Su-57s are an expensive PR campaign for the urapatriotic population.
    The same su-57, according to statements, should go into service in 2016, but 2022 is already close, and only 1 serial was released, and that was not transferred to the troops.
    To the population, of course, this delay can be easily explained by the damned 90s and the intrigues of the West, but for external buyers such delays are an extremely negative sign.

    Let's wait for December - then they promised to finish 4 more cars.
    And we will wait for the flight of the Su-75, maybe then commercial offers will appear on it.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 19 November 2021 08: 01
      +11
      Quote: SergKam
      The Armata and the Su-57 are an expensive PR campaign for the urapatriotic population.

      Armata, yes, the Su-57 is needed in reality. In fighter aviation, there is a quantitative and qualitative lag behind Europe, the USA and China, we are already comparable to India. But it is not at all clear what the Su-57 is. There is no information about its acceptance into service.
    3. EvilLion
      EvilLion 19 November 2021 09: 25
      .
      Sometimes one gets the impression that it is better for people not to say anything at all, they will not understand. No one in 2016 did not undertake to supply the Su-57, if an outsider Rogozin blurted out something, then it had no legal force.
      1. SergKam
        SergKam 19 November 2021 12: 21
        +19
        In 2016, no one undertook to supply the Su-57 if an outsider Rogozin blurted out something


        The Russian fifth-generation fighter, known as the PAK FA, will enter service in 2016, with serial deliveries of the model starting in 2017.
        Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev, Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force (Air Force) of Russia, told reporters about this on Thursday.

        https://rg.ru/2015/05/28/pak-fa-site.html

        Air Force Commander - an outsider? Nobody pledged?
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. SergKam
            SergKam 19 November 2021 12: 44
            +10
            It is possible to have small pieces of paper signed by representatives of the OKB im. Sukhoi, UAC, a plant in KnA, possibly some other contractors


            Can this be about the Su-75? That the first flight will be in the 23rd year, that the serial production will be in the 26th year, that they are going to produce it at all?
            Or "is it different, you don't understand"?
            1. EvilLion
              EvilLion 19 November 2021 12: 56
              .
              And I didn’t say anything about the Su-75 and I don’t perceive expressions like “the first flight in 2023” even without specifying the month, as something other than rough estimates, which may turn out to be wrong 100 times more. And I don't understand why Skomorokhov is so worried about him. The Sukhoi Design Bureau for the Su-75 did not promise anything to me or the RF Ministry of Defense in the form of contracts. Maybe she promised an unnamed anchor customer, and there are deadlines, but if they fail, this is not my problem, or Russia, but only the signatories.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. shahor
        shahor 20 November 2021 00: 17
        +3
        Quote: EvilLion
        if a stranger Rogozin blurted out something

        Well, I remember that back in 13 the commander of the Air Force blurted out - that in 14 the Su-57 will already be in combat units ... The problem is that a modern high-tech product is being developed, and the industry cannot master its production - there are no technologies, components. This problem was already in the late USSR - let us recall the project of the Cedar-Soviet Sivulf. And further, the more complex the technologies are, the more the RF will lag behind. Back in the late 90s, Academician Fedosov warned that not one, even the richest country, can afford to have all modern technologies. Impossibly expensive and there won't be enough resources. That is why scientific exchange and the ability to use other people's technologies are so important. Here is the United States, Britons, France, Italy ... can. We are trying to substitute import - and this is a failed strategy. An example is electronic chips.
        The basis of their production is photolithographic machines. They are made by only 3 firms in the world - 2 Japanese and 1 Dutch. The Dutch have the coolest, for technical processes 5nm and below. Such a car costs 170 million dollars. Nobody is trying to copy them, it will take about 20 years. And why, the suppliers are reliable. These machines are not sold to us, so Russian processors Baikal for Russia are made in Taiwan. They also have such machines, and much more, which we do not have and will not have in the next 20-30 years. And you - has no analogues!
    4. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 19 November 2021 12: 54
      -4
      Quote: SergKam
      only 1 serial was released, and that was not transferred to the troops.

      He is at the Lipetsk Combat Use Center. The next 4 pilots train on it ...
      So it's okay. It is transferred to the Air Force.
    5. DMi
      DMi 19 November 2021 21: 57
      -2
      And who could seriously believe that SU57 will be in the series in 2016? Well, that's how naive you have to be, really. Look at the development timeline for F-35, Raphael, Eurofighter. How many years have passed from the start of the program to the first deliveries? How many years have passed before the addition of the "serial" options? Su-57 goes in the same time frame. And given the collapse of the 90s and 00s. It is generally a miracle that it is so fast.
  7. Bradley
    Bradley 19 November 2021 07: 09
    +8
    If the Su-75 will fly in 2023, then it will still need to be brought to mind, and only then will it show what it is capable of.
    Since there will be problems in any case, and these problems will have to be solved, and this is time, and time is money.
    And now it’s just a mock-up, either plywood, or sheathed with metal or zloty, all this is exactly a mock-up.
    We need a plane in metal!
    Now it makes no sense to say anything, especially its price. And if tomorrow salaries will be raised by 200%, and if the components will soar in price, and if that, and if this? "If" so many.
    And the figure of 30 million is taken from the ceiling to attract attention. The real price will be shown by the Su-57 series.

    But let's take a look at the situation today. There is the Su-35S and the MiG-35. Su-35 is a cheap multipurpose fighter. There is no queue. However, as well as for the MiG-35.
    If we are talking about countries that have no money, then there is even a MiG-29M2. The queue is also not visible ...

    I would like to believe that the Su-75 will "shoot", but it's hard to believe.
    In any case, there is still time until 2026, but we'll see.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 19 November 2021 08: 12
      +13
      Quote: Bradley
      there is a MiG-35

      He is not here. In the promised configuration. Yes, his ancestor came out extremely unsuccessful. So there is no demand for real money.
      Quote: Bradley
      Su-35 is a cheap multipurpose fighter. There is no queue.

      It's not cheap. About $ 100 million, for this money the choice of fighters is very large. In addition, there are questions about the modernity of missiles and avionics.

      Here is the answer to why there is no queue. Plus, the sanctions played a role.
      1. SergKam
        SergKam 19 November 2021 08: 19
        +7
        The most expensive thing in an airplane is avionics, an engine.
        Even if 2 engines cost half the plane, each 25 turns out to be a single-engine Su-35 should cost 75 million.
        It turns out that either the Su-75 is much cheaper (and worse avionics), or the price of 30 million is just a lure.
        1. Runner2022
          Runner2022 19 November 2021 08: 31
          -5
          Now imagine how much time and money you saved on the 75th by creating a complete unification of the engine, equipment and armament from the 57m
          1. Eug
            Eug 19 November 2021 09: 19
            +6
            I'm not sure that there is 100% unification, most likely, KSA will be transferred to the bottom, there will be fewer AFAR modules and other nuances, because of which the software will have to be changed, but it will definitely be 70-80%.
          2. SergKam
            SergKam 19 November 2021 09: 59
            0
            creating a complete unification of the engine

            What is the unification if the Su-57 has a "Type 30" engine, and the Su-75 has an AL-41F?
            1. Runner2022
              Runner2022 19 November 2021 10: 42
              -1
              ))

              TECH SPECS
              Crew: 1 person, 2 people, unmanned

              Engine: AL-41F1, product-30
        2. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 19 November 2021 08: 36
          +11
          Quote: SergKam
          or the price of 30 million is just a tempting

          This is an impossible price to pay for a modern fighter jet. For this money, the JF-17 in the scourge of the complete set can only be bought. This is probably the price for the glider. Everything else is on top. The final price of $ 60-70 million for the Su-75 is more adequate.
        3. Alexey Sommer
          Alexey Sommer 19 November 2021 10: 27
          -1
          Quote: SergKam
          it turns out a single-engine Su-35 should cost 75 million

          Su35 twin-engine
      2. Bradley
        Bradley 19 November 2021 08: 46
        -3
        He is not here. In the promised configuration. Yes, his ancestor came out extremely unsuccessful. So there is no demand for real money.

        Can not argue with that.

        It's not cheap. About $ 100 million, for this money the choice of fighters is very large. In addition, there are questions about the modernity of missiles and avionics.

        Here the question is only about the radar. Give everyone AFAR.
        And for missiles he has RVV-SD, for example.
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 19 November 2021 09: 23
      .
      I don’t understand, what difference does it make to you what will be brought to the exhibition? For me, it’s better to take a model than to disassemble it, and then assemble a full-scale ground stand, which is only one in the early stages of development, and its absence will stop work.

      The MiG-29M2 has normal sales, just like the Su-35.
    3. Eroma
      Eroma 19 November 2021 19: 59
      -1
      Perhaps the sanctions are still working. Indonesia for this reason refused from the Su35. It is not very reasonable to run into problems for the sake of a technique that has "no problem" analogues. For the sake of С400, countries are ready to risk their "health" since there is practically no alternative, either a leaky sky, or sanctions, and then perhaps the reason for such a step can be explained.
      The Su-75 can also fall into the category that has no analogues, especially if the price is really not 30 million, of course, but 50, and even with an open architecture where half of the avionics will be foreign, and even the production will be a screwdriver from the buyer, then it is unlikely that there will be sanctions stop buyers.
      In the video in the credits, they say in Russian that proven solutions! This means that this is not quite an "innovative" plane, but Lego made of ready-made elements, the main difficulty is the glider and the Lego docking with each other. Probably not as difficult as developing everything from scratch.
  8. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 19 November 2021 07: 17
    +4
    Here's what you still need to think about:
    1. The 4th generation is getting old and soon, except for videoconferencing, you won't sell them to anyone ..
    2. It is unprofitable to have a division, as in the Russian Federation into Su34, Su30, Su24, Su35, Su57, and to produce a multi-type park and use it too ...
    3 Su24 and Su25 and MiG31 and MiG29 are banally not produced and disabled ...
    4 Su57 production is unlikely to be more than 15-17 units per year.
    5 it is hardly possible to produce both the Su35 and Su57 in normal quantities in parallel.

    So a single universal mass aircraft, unified with the flagship, is asking for. And the Su30 with all the goodies from the Su57 as a heavy aircraft for non-paramount theaters
  9. Runner2022
    Runner2022 19 November 2021 07: 24
    +5
    In general, it is strange to think that the production of the 57th is delayed due to some problems now, when its serious unification with the future 75m has opened. This was probably all about 3-5 years ago, we just learned about 75m just now. And plus to everything, you need to understand how much the 57th is different from the same F-22 and 35.

    Ps here some people still believe in the existence of the NGAD demonstrator and nothing, everything is fine
    1. Eroma
      Eroma 19 November 2021 20: 13
      +2
      Reasonable assumption that the Su-75 was originally conceived along with the Su57 good ... An example of engine unification is the Chinese J10 and J11, a very clear example for us and on our own engine!
      Work on the Su-75 began when everything was developed as part of the work on the Su57, so the presentation took place now. It looks like everything is from Barakhta Bay, but the work actually went on for a long time, but quietly. Putin loves to surprise his partners, so that their jaw drops, and even guessing the moment.
      (by the way, there were also rumors about a single-engine fighter from Su for a long time)
  10. avia12005
    avia12005 19 November 2021 07: 43
    +9
    Until officials for each unfulfilled promise are not sent to the Kolyma, nothing will fly or go.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 19 November 2021 09: 19
      0
      Firstly, there is no such thing in production as a promise; secondly, under Vissarionych, those who did not cope not to the Kolyma were sent, but demoted.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 19 November 2021 09: 39
        +6
        In the United States, at the same time, the aviation industry "bloomed" with all colors and all types of aircraft were designed in a competitive environment ... and systems that still fly in the B-52 and Tu-95 or Tu16 ... It's not about Comrade Stalin.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 19 November 2021 09: 49
          -8
          So what? In those days, the development of an aircraft was in-1 cheap, in-2 extremely unreliable, and the presence of many models gave at least some chance of finding successful designs. Now such an approach does not make sense, since the reliability of the design is incomparably higher, and the service life of the aircraft is calculated for decades, and the developers who have lost the competition cannot simply follow the trail. year with a new model. If the contestants are different firms, then the loser is retired for 20 years, and in fact leaves the business. If this is one firm with different projects, then everyone goes to finalize the selected option. In the United States, if the competition still remains, then in fact, it is reduced to the struggle of old models against the F-35.
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 19 November 2021 11: 05
            +5
            Compare the quantity and quality of US equipment at that time with the USSR ... and the methods and who survived. even on the 4th generation, the design and cost of aircraft became dorga and the firms merged. Now there are two main competitors in the United States ... in the Russian Federation - the UAC. this is the trend of the 4th and 5th generation.
            1. EvilLion
              EvilLion 19 November 2021 12: 44
              0
              If you are interested in the quality of technology, then questions to Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov and his crowned predecessors, what did they do in the era when the working class was forming in developed countries, and why the Soviet government had to drag millions of people from villages to schools and vocational schools in order to these people could somehow work in factories, and only then, not even they, but their children and grandchildren, will reach the level of industrial culture, like the United States. And before that, it should not be surprising that during the Second World War, Lend-Lease technology could be blamed for anything, but not for poor manufacturing quality. And even when the F-5 was brought to the USSR from Vietnam, it is clear that the airplane was not so-so in terms of flight characteristics, but the quality of workmanship and production culture are such that you need to adopt.

              And in another way, the culture of production, and with it quality, does not arise.

              In the 4th generation, 2-3 participants were still invited to the competition, and even YF-22 had a competitor in the person of YF-23.
      2. avia12005
        avia12005 19 November 2021 10: 06
        +2
        Well, yes, Tupolev and others were simply locked in sharashkas. It was not planted. This was so encouraged. Secondly, non-fulfillment of the state order was severely punished. Q-2, in your opinion, can a state official blurt out nonsense with impunity?
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 19 November 2021 10: 13
          -6
          The state order, even during the Second World War, was thwarted all the time. If a person does not cope with the responsibilities assigned to him, then he must either be taught or transferred to work with which he copes. There is no such article as incompetence in the Criminal Code.

          They sat in sharashki on charges of very specific crimes, I will not analyze who wasted the state there. money, and who was in the Trotskyist organization (there were enough bad ones), but in order to be imprisoned for disrupting the plan, it was necessary to be prosecuted for sabotage, and for the court to recognize this sabotage.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 19 November 2021 11: 00
            +3
            Well Tupolev, Korolev and other comrades were notable criminals
            1. EvilLion
              EvilLion 19 November 2021 12: 48
              -3
              Yes, holy people. Undoubtedly. Zhukov G.K. already had such a saintly person that he, a military general, accustomed not to stand on ceremony, took away a wagon of junk, but how could you think that! Or Kasparov G.K., the world chess champion, and they brought me into the cell by hand. And how dare they only.
          3. avia12005
            avia12005 19 November 2021 13: 03
            0
            Truly lovely.
    2. Flank
      Flank 19 November 2021 14: 26
      +6
      Until officials are sent to the Kolyma for every unfulfilled promise

      So they just stop promising. And then how to choose?
  11. Yaroslav Zhigulin
    Yaroslav Zhigulin 19 November 2021 07: 52
    +1
    Because all over the world people who make loud statements, make a fuss, and then do not fulfill the declared, are called approximately the same. And they are valued just as low.


    Elon Musk is laughing somewhere
    1. SergKam
      SergKam 19 November 2021 10: 12
      +10
      Elon Musk is laughing somewhere

      For all his gibberish, Musk is the only one who now has a super-heavy rocket, and launches twice as many rockets as Russia.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 19 November 2021 11: 02
        0
        We must also understand that the United States itself is doing and is taking part in the production of 90% of satellites ... and the launches from the Russian Federation could not continue for a long time. The money must remain in the country (or offshore and go into the right pockets). Roskosmos is not in the USA and the pockets are not the pockets of the interested parties in the USA.
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion 19 November 2021 12: 49
        -6
        What, what? What did Musk launch there?
        1. SergKam
          SergKam 19 November 2021 12: 57
          +8
          Are you having a hard time typing a list of space launches in your search?

          Russia made 2020 space launches in 15
          Space X - 25.
          Yes, not twice, but 1,7 times more
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 19 November 2021 13: 06
            -8
            Believe it or not, I am not interested in this for one simple reason that launches are made not for the sake of launches, but for some purpose. Launching Tesla into orbit, for example, is not an understandable goal. The competition in the number of missiles was of no interest to anyone already in the 70s. But the accident rate, for example, is interesting. And for some reason Musk's explosions, as well as zvizdulets drenched in urine. The United States knew how to make rockets even before Musk.
            1. SergKam
              SergKam 19 November 2021 13: 13
              +6
              And explosions for some reason at Musk,

              What explosions did his serial rockets have? Will you name at least one in the last 3 years?
              Or are you talking about a prototype for testing?

              launches are made, not for the sake of launches, but for some purpose

              Well of course.
              Musk has brought out about as many satellites as Russia since 91. Everything is correct
      3. DMi
        DMi 19 November 2021 22: 10
        -2
        Musk, or the NASA specialists who drove him along with the NASA developments? Who actually makes these launches?
        1. SergKam
          SergKam 20 November 2021 01: 52
          +3
          Musk, or the NASA specialists who drove him along with the NASA developments?

          I’m just wondering: why didn’t NASA specialists fit Boeing? Lockheed? Rocketdyne? Orbitals? Old, trusted NASA partners?
          1. DMi
            DMi 20 November 2021 03: 28
            -2
            Not for me. These are internal intrigues and showdowns within the industry that most Americans are not aware of. It is enough to understand the result. Musk is just a wedding general and a label for someone else's interests. It is so pumped up in media that would distract attention from the real state of affairs. Loud noise curtain with rattles.
            Well, a person has at least a psychiatric diagnosis since childhood. What inventor, what entrepreneur, what engineer ??? What are you putting your ears into for noodles and cranberries. Typical front man, well controlled and controlled.
            1. SergKam
              SergKam 20 November 2021 03: 49
              +3
              These are internal intrigues and showdowns within the industry that most Americans are not aware of.

              In your opinion, stupid Americans saw Atlas on our engines for a long time, dear Delta, they were all their lives in second place in launches, and then HOW IT DIDN'T come to them: do we have NASA specialists and can we give them to someone? So what do you think ?? Do you really think the whole world is clinical idiots and yourself, accordingly, the smartest?

              And in fact: it does not matter whether Musk's figurehead or not. A technological breakthrough is important both in rocketry and in the development of communications. No one in the world had such technologies. His company developed advanced rockets, or NASA developed advanced rockets in the depths and gave it to him - the meaning does not change.
              The bottom line is that in spite of its nonsense, his company has enriched the space industry with new ideas, and has overtaken Roskosmos in launches one and a half times.

              a person has at least a psychiatric diagnosis since childhood

              Einstein had mild autism. Newton, according to a number of experts, suffered from schizophrenia. I'm already silent about Nesh - he was openly lying in a psychiatric hospital, and nothing, he grabbed the Nobel Prize
  12. Avior
    Avior 19 November 2021 08: 05
    -6
    ... And the blame for this will not be the United States or the sanctions, but the greed of the company's management. Good hands are expensive.

    A good plane is expensive. The salary situation is the flip side of the relatively low cost of the aircraft.
    1. Vsevolod Z
      Vsevolod Z 19 November 2021 08: 28
      +6
      The situation with salaries, the downside of quality and speed of execution. Cheap / fast / high quality, choose any 2 parameters. With our realities, sometimes choose one.
      1. Wertgan
        Wertgan 19 November 2021 19: 08
        +4
        Simply, from each actually earned ruble, three more rubles are paid to the West through the tribute mechanism.
    2. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 19 November 2021 12: 09
      +7
      The situation with salaries is the flip side of fucking managers. Which, with extremely low efficiency, receive unreasonably high salaries. Plus any theft on their part wherever possible.
      1. Alf
        Alf 19 November 2021 20: 23
        +3
        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
        The salary situation is the flip side of fucking managers.

        The scandal in Rospochta, when the minister wrote himself vacation pay in the amount of 98 million, at a time when the postman received 10 thousand from him. And nothing, they admitted that everything is in order ...
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 20 November 2021 13: 26
          +4
          Quote: Alf
          when the postman received 10 thousand from him.

          Now the situation has practically not changed. The post office still has beggarly salaries. There the staff turnover is wild. But what can I say, the post office closest to my house came in to pick up a parcel somehow, work is in full swing. Five people in the department. A month later, one person came in and that one was a substitute. They all quit.
          Quote: Alf
          And nothing, they admitted that everything is in order ...

          Quite possibly. Under capitalism laws protect the interests of the capitalist.
  13. valera75
    valera75 19 November 2021 08: 33
    +12
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    Quote: novel xnumx
    skilled chinese won't go

    Today they are already running home from our factories, even going on strike. Regarding 40-45, we have 48 average salary at our enterprise, in fact 32-35 maximum.
    On a regarding the question in the article
    Good hands are expensive

    then where to get them, good ones? The system of vocational education has been destroyed, alas. Therefore, there are no specialists.

    Where I was born, lived and grew up, in Kuzbass all vocational schools were closed, now there are those lyceums and they teach in a week, and in 90, when I studied for 3 years and practiced at the plant, and metal science, metal technology, etc., all this was. They taught turners, welders, locksmiths, millers, groups of 30 people each, now this is not. Now I work in Tomsk and we have a shortage of locksmiths with a salary of 2 tons for 40 years and no one came, but on the contrary, only experienced ones slowly leave finding good places. it is better for them to go for this money in fuel oil to poke around in the bank, CSN, mvideo, go as a consultant or in the top five as a seller, be in a clean shirt and tie and get more. Therefore, I am not surprised why there is a shortage of personnel in Komsomolsk. This is such a shortage throughout Russia and I am sure it will be only worse, the generation of managers is in charge, having kicked out the production workers, hurray to the generation of the Unified State Exam! Now we are reaping the fruits, alas!
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 19 November 2021 10: 56
      +5
      It's not just about salaries. Try to build an enterprise for the production of something in Russia. If you do not have connections at the top and you are not a relative of the holder of power, then you will simply drown in a mass of bureaucratic delays, approvals and permits at the very initial stage. That is why we have only relatives of officials and the administration quite often the owners of enterprises, companies and firms. But the firms are not those that are needed for the development of the state, but that are needed precisely to siphon resources, money from this state and its people. That is why there is no development of production in Russia - it is economically unprofitable because it is costly at all stages and cannot provide the rate of profit to which our pro-government "entrepreneurs" are already accustomed. And those industries that they create sometimes, in order to somehow maintain the image of their fiefdom on the market, are simply doomed to beggarly salaries there in order to get at least some profit. But again, one must understand that these newly created enterprises are not a development trend for production in the country and the country itself, it is simply the need not to lose positions, which are narrowing more and more.
      1. Flank
        Flank 19 November 2021 15: 14
        -1
        Quote: Snail N9
        Try to build an enterprise for the production of something in Russia. If you have no connections at the top and you are not a relative

        It doesn't matter. The trouble is expensive money. In the west, a loan is at three percent (also only for our own), but here at twenty. It is clear that our products are more expensive in the amount of interest. Well, that factories are not building all in a row, but their own, then what difference does it make if they do build them?
        1. Alf
          Alf 19 November 2021 20: 26
          +2
          Quote: Flanke
          In the west, a loan is at three percent (also only for our own), and we have at twenty.

          And who has established and supports such conditions in our country? Are they not those who complain from the screen that it is unprofitable to produce anything in Russia?
          1. Flank
            Flank 22 November 2021 11: 26
            +1
            They installed the wrong ones, but those complained.
  14. svp67
    svp67 19 November 2021 08: 34
    +6
    When in 2023, as promised, the Su-57 will fly, then, perhaps, it will be possible to talk.
    But now I do not understand and this one is drawn on the "cartoon"?
  15. EvilLion
    EvilLion 19 November 2021 09: 18
    .
    There would be a reason to raise a noise - and it will be raised. These are the modern laws of the infosphere.


    2000 Years ago, everything was exactly the same, it is not clear why the author is surprised. In the modern world, adequate people have long learned to filter information.

    There was a model at the air show.


    Back in the summer, not a model was shown, but a ground stand, if Skomorokhov does not believe this, then these are Skomorokhov's problems, and not the Sukhoi Design Bureau, which had every right to bring in a plywood model.

    When in 2023, as promised, the Su-57 will fly, then, perhaps, it will be possible to talk.


    Apparently, the Su-75, since the Su-57 flew for a long time and 4 production vehicles are handed over in December, and from 2023 it should begin to be produced in already noticeable quantities. The Su-75 can fly in January 2023 and in December. Nobody even specified a month, especially since it is impossible. Most importantly, these statements are rough estimates and do not bind anyone to anything.

    then, perhaps, it will be possible to talk.


    Well, no one speaks except Skomorokhov.

    Indeed, if you remember the hype with the Su-57 and how it all ended


    Skomorokhov, be a man, if in December or in January a batch of Su-57 is handed over as contracted, and the airplanes seem to have been shown more than once in the shop, then you will publish an article that you were wrong, and you apologize to the Su-57 too, and in front of the readers. Weak?

    I talked with the residents of Komsomolsk-on-Amur,


    What is the relation of 99% of the inhabitants of this city to the plant, and do they really have information? In general, another psychosis with sources of information class OBS.

    The plane has not yet come out as promised


    Roma, what and who promised you? There is an improvement plan for the Su-57, it is always there. And he always outstrips objective possibilities. You can recall the same T-34 for which, by the way, there was just no engine, because against the background of problems with the early V-2, the lower power of the AL-41F1 in non-afterburner mode compared to the F-22 engine is nothing at all ... And the KV-1 raised questions from the military about its need for the KV-85, because why build a 40+ ton monster, which is barely dragged by a motor (with a resource of 70 hours at the stand), and which breaks any bridge, including capital , and put on it the same cannon as on a 30-ton tank. But without these tanks there would be nothing to fight with, and the T-34-85 with the IS-2 would not have appeared.

    Or maybe the MiG-21 of the first series, which was a plane from the Korean War with purely cannon armament, was something from which the Soviet Air Force went into ecstasy? Or maybe they just trudged from subsequent versions? Combat use, for example, quickly showed that just 2 missiles were VERY few. And if we compare any version of the 60s with the MiG-21bis, then according to Skomorokhov's logic, they are all garbage, and they did not have to be produced. And only the encore of 1972 was the correct MiG-21.

    In general, another senseless psychosis, not an article.

    True, the Far East is really not the best place to live, so there are no Chinese there, and will not be, they are actively firing from there. And I advise everyone who advocates small aircraft to fly to villages in such places, and in general, whether it is necessary to live in the Far East and other places all the time, or there are enough rotational workers.
    1. Alexey Sommer
      Alexey Sommer 19 November 2021 10: 35
      .
      Quote: EvilLion
      In general, another senseless psychosis, not an article.

      I fully support.
      drinks
    2. Roman Skomorokhov
      19 November 2021 15: 55
      +5
      Remind me, darling, where is the ditch in which we lay together after drinking? Or when we drank brothers-in-law and allowed me to contact me so familiarly ... In general, move my memory. Maybe then I will answer something to your rudeness.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 19 November 2021 17: 55
        -6
        You have strange associations about hanging out together. As for the "rudeness", you have been informed about a few dozen times that the contract has been concluded, the airplanes are being assembled. Then, at the end of the year, they just began to remember. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4yZiYoJYIk At the same time, the UAC has not disrupted a single contract for the production of fighters since 2009, that KnAAZ, Irkut, Novosib, and on Falcon there were no delays, in my opinion, it was not, which makes your statements about the fact that the Su-57 pshik unfounded. So far, practice shows the opposite. At the same time, for some reason you don’t worry about a really flunked contract for the Il-76.
  16. A. Privalov
    A. Privalov 19 November 2021 09: 23
    +9
    Modern aviation is a complicated thing. She cannot stand unnecessary haste. The production of serial Su-57 will definitely begin. A month earlier or later, the role is no longer playing. Tea, not war.
    Let people work quietly and get things done.

    It should be well understood that the number of fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II fighters of all variants delivered to customers is already 720 units. In total, 35 countries were the customers of the F-14 Lightning II. In total, the planes were in the air for 430 thousand hours. This made it possible to reveal the very same 100500 problems of his childhood illnesses, constantly ridiculed.
    More than 35 pilots and over 1460 ground support personnel have been trained for the F-11. They will continue to identify problems and challenges and help designers and manufacturing engineers resolve them.
    The Su-57 is still ahead.

    Serial production of Su-57 fighters at the Yuri Gagarin Aviation Plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur faces problems:
    “The main problem that we faced in workshop No. 45 during the implementation of the project was the lack of free space. The workshop is located between the territories of two neighboring workshops, so there is a shortage of production space for building a production line "
    There are still many problems of an organizational nature. Here is a publication just a year ago:

    And how many problems they keep secret, and how many difficulties will come to light when the serial aircraft go to the troops, no one knows yet. In a word, once again: let people calmly bring the device to mind.

    I won't think about the Su-75. A thing that is definitely promising. The potential is good. However, the chicken has not yet laid the testicle, as they say. So, it will be too early to call the guests to the banquet.

    While the trial is still in progress, let's see what is happening these days on the assembly line at Lockheed Martin (English, but you can set up a pretty decent translation of the credits):
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 19 November 2021 09: 43
      0
      And we must also understand that there are no more "cheap" Russian fighters and that even the Su75, which is planned to be cheaper than the F35, we will not be able to produce more ........ we do not and will not have a numerical superiority in this matter. And the success of the new fighter (success in pieces around the world) will only give it the production of another country or countries, as the main fighter of the Air Force
      1. Runner2022
        Runner2022 19 November 2021 09: 51
        -9
        Whenever I see the word "we", in any analytical assessment I yawn, then I run for popcorn laughing

        ,,we can not,,
        ,,We can not,,
        ,,we do not have,,
        ,,we need,,
        laughing lol
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 19 November 2021 10: 59
          +5
          One might think that "we will be able" and "mothers will give birth" and please in the second "Crimean" or WWII.
  17. Smesharik83
    Smesharik83 19 November 2021 09: 40
    -5
    Well, at least they didn't release a video that the promising aircraft virtually defeated the real American, as it was with the aircraft carrier.
  18. pytar
    pytar 19 November 2021 09: 48
    -1
    Thus, production estimates for "Mata" can be optimistic "

    It ... somehow sounded meaningful ... lol
  19. Olgovich
    Olgovich 19 November 2021 10: 01
    -6
    commercial


    They, too, were at first "rollers", and now: The Sun (UK):
    Russian "non-intercepted" hypersonic missile "Zircon" at a speed of 10000 kilometers per hour effortlessly destroyed the target during the last test launch.

    A deadly flying projectile was fired from the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" on November 17 and successfully hit a target in the White Sea, according to the Moscow Defense Ministry.

    "The crew of the Northern Fleet frigate" Admiral Gorshkov "in the framework of the final cycle of tests of hypersonic missile weapons launched the next missile" Zircon "", \

    Just last month, a Zircon rocket was launched from a nuclear-powered submarine, raising confidence in its capabilities.

    After a successful launch from a submarine, the enviable high mobility of this already terrifying weapon is further increased.


    Another "commercial" is a high-precision aviation missile system "Dagger»Already stands on combat duty.
    1. alexvmar
      alexvmar 19 November 2021 22: 28
      +1
      The vanguards, too, seem to be already on duty. Not?
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. Chack wessel
    Chack wessel 19 November 2021 10: 26
    -7
    Quote: "But the main component that calls into question the whole case with the Su-75 is in the Far East. In Komsomolsk-on-Amur."
    Yeah. We placed the factory as close to the Chinese border as possible. :)
    1. Nafanya from the sofa
      Nafanya from the sofa 20 November 2021 09: 18
      +1
      We placed the factory as close to the Chinese border as possible.

      The nearest Chinese border is ~ 290 km.

      So Moscow was positioned incorrectly - only 443 km away. from the Ukrainian border. And to NATO (Latvia) only about 580 km).
  22. ximkim
    ximkim 19 November 2021 10: 41
    +2
    Yes there will be no aircraft in the air in 2023.
    1. Runner2022
      Runner2022 19 November 2021 10: 48
      -1
      Again, as always, will you learn about the successful tests of Russian weapons from the Pentagon report?) 3 days ago there was a case just ... laughing winked
  23. ximkim
    ximkim 19 November 2021 10: 59
    -1
    Quote: Runner2022
    Again, as always, will you learn about the successful tests of Russian weapons from the Pentagon report?) 3 days ago there was a case just ... laughing winked

    Firstly, they raised a fuss with this plane early.
    Secondly, a Russian-made aircraft.
    In the third, the developer and manufacturer makes it clear that the plane is created just like that, that is, to be unforgettable.
    1. Runner2022
      Runner2022 19 November 2021 11: 05
      -2
      In terms of? What is the connection?) What does it mean early if it was designed and most likely unified at least 3 years ago) It is only now that the public has learned about it
  24. Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 19 November 2021 11: 11
    +3
    At the time when the prototype of the Su-75 was shown, it means that the stages of the draft design were passed and proceeded to the design process, the creation of prototypes of the airframe for stat tests and the assembly of the flight model.
    Taking into account the experience gained on the Su-57, the development of the Su-75 project will go 30-40% faster, due to the accumulated design developments (for example, a unified cockpit and ejection seat, design of a glider, power elements with a change in geometry for a different glider, a unified chassis. If the onboard computer programming and digital flight tests are carried out in parallel (and this is done on Sukhoi), then by the time the airframe is created, the program code will be almost ready.
    That is, to get a flying prototype at the age of 7 using existing components is real. But how these components will look in 7 years is another question, all aircraft will become obsolete by the series.
    Since the configuration is modular, that is, it will be possible to carry out modernization during operation.
  25. ximkim
    ximkim 19 November 2021 11: 18
    -5
    Quote: Runner2022
    In terms of? What is the connection?) What does it mean early if it was designed and most likely unified at least 3 years ago) It is only now that the public has learned about it

    I answered you.
    But you answer the question - will this aircraft be ready in 2023 and does it have export potential?
    1. Runner2022
      Runner2022 19 November 2021 11: 21
      0
      I admit it, especially since the debugging of the Su-57 was delayed due to the extensive unification with the Su-75. As for export: I will personally drum up if the car is successful and will be part of the Aerospace Forces.


      The United Aircraft Corporation announced the start of assembly of several fifth generation Checkmate fighters.

      According to Yuri Slyusar, head of the United Aircraft Corporation, the production of a new aircraft has started. “At the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, work has begun on the construction of several Checkmates at the same time,” says the head of the UAC
      1. A. h. 52
        A. h. 52 19 November 2021 11: 40
        +1
        How can an almost production plane be unified with a plastic model that has not yet been built in hardware?
        1. Runner2022
          Runner2022 19 November 2021 11: 44
          -2
          For fun, check out what the 75th is.
          1. A. h. 52
            A. h. 52 19 November 2021 11: 44
            +1
            Doesn't represent anything yet. Only a cartoon.
            1. Runner2022
              Runner2022 19 November 2021 11: 46
              -2
              HM)

              The United Aircraft Corporation announced the start of assembly of several fifth generation Checkmate fighters.


              According to Yuri Slyusar, head of the United Aircraft Corporation, the production of a new aircraft has started. “At the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, work has begun on the construction of several Checkmates at the same time,” says the head of the UAC
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. Runner2022
                  Runner2022 19 November 2021 12: 50
                  +2
                  This, as always, happens: first, only cartoons, nothing, and then reports, tantrums and snot from the Pentagon about successful tests and acceptance of the latest Russian advanced weapons laughing
  26. ximkim
    ximkim 19 November 2021 11: 27
    -4
    Quote: Runner2022
    I admit it, especially since the debugging of the Su-57 was delayed due to the extensive unification with the Su-75. As for export: I will personally drum up if the car is successful and will be part of the Aerospace Forces.


    The United Aircraft Corporation announced the start of assembly of several fifth generation Checkmate fighters.

    According to Yuri Slyusar, head of the United Aircraft Corporation, the production of a new aircraft has started. “At the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, work has begun on the construction of several Checkmates at the same time,” says the head of the UAC

    Just a little more, a little more ...
    2023 will show.
    I'll make a mark on the calendar.
  27. The comment was deleted.
  28. Fitter65
    Fitter65 19 November 2021 12: 22
    +7
    I spoke with the residents of Komsomolsk-on-Amur
    When, with how many, in what area, with what category of residents? Or, as always, another blah blah. You will be surprised, but there are people who receive 20-25, and there are about 12 in general.
  29. Serge-667
    Serge-667 19 November 2021 12: 49
    +7
    If the buyer is ready to vote with a dollar - green light for the concept in the series. If not, why translate resources?


    Wait a minute! IMHO, comparing a car dealership, a model of a car and a model of an airplane is not entirely correct. a car layout and a plate with the performance characteristics of a car are one thing. Here the potential buyer evaluates the beauty and the car as a means of consumer goods. If this car, ultimately, will have a turning radius of not 5, but 7,5 meters, no one will be particularly offended. It is a toy. Decoration.
    Military equipment is another matter. Before buying it, you must absolutely clearly know its capabilities and features. Drive a hundred times in the air in various modes.
    Then you can vote with the dollar. And buying a model reminds me of the beads trade.
    One problem - the Chukchi and Indians have already died out.
  30. CastroRuiz
    CastroRuiz 19 November 2021 13: 18
    +5
    Truthful article with correct vivods. The author is plus.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  31. alexeyrem
    alexeyrem 19 November 2021 13: 38
    -6
    I think that the production of the aircraft is not the main thing, the main thing is to create the appearance of competition and weaken the production of the F-35.
    1. Outsider
      Outsider 19 November 2021 14: 08
      +3
      - "And weaken the production of the F-35"??! I immediately remember the great "Twelve Chairs" and the cannibal-Ellochka, who all the time tried to compete with Vanderbildiha, and Ellochka even thought that she was doing it successfully! laughing lol
    2. Runner2022
      Runner2022 19 November 2021 14: 10
      -6
      Russia is not so rich as to create junk for the sake of visibility, especially when the production of the 57th is developing, which is an order of magnitude superior to the F-35 and 22
      1. Outsider
        Outsider 19 November 2021 14: 33
        +3
        - Eccentric, you will never understand that the Su-57 "does not match" the F-22 and "three heads" does not reach the F-35. You live in a world of ridiculous illusions that have absolutely nothing to do with reality. You need to discuss in topics about something more primitive: machine guns, machine guns, even tanks. To all appearances, you will never ripen to "reasoning about airplanes" ...
    3. Alf
      Alf 19 November 2021 20: 30
      +4
      Quote: alexeyrem
      the main thing is to create the appearance of competition and weaken the production of the f-35

      SU-57 created, greatly weakened the production of the Penguin?
  32. Outsider
    Outsider 19 November 2021 14: 02
    -2
    The plane may indeed be able to carry 7 tons of weapons over a distance of 2000 km at a speed of 1,8M.

    - No, of course! lol
    At a speed of 1.8M it will fly 500 kilometers, then it will run out of fuel.
    With a load of 7 tons, it will not develop 1.8M at all - God forbid, to develop 1.2M-1.3M.
    Its ferry range is 3000 km, at a subsonic cruising speed of 0.8M-0.85M, - and since we are not given fuel in internal tanks, the very internal fuel, how many external fuel tanks should it take? And then what is left of the payload? request
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 19 November 2021 21: 04
      +2
      ferry range 3000 km
      Everything that will hold on to the external nodes will take it; 7 tons of payload are not the combat radius, too !?
      1. Outsider
        Outsider 20 November 2021 14: 17
        +2
        - "Combat radius" - about his words were not heard anywhere. Ferry range (Ferry range): 3,000 km - no combat load, only fuel. With PTB, or without PTB - history is still silent. There is a hope that only on the internal tanks ... smile
  33. TatarinSSSR
    TatarinSSSR 19 November 2021 14: 07
    +5
    Like the author, I am skeptical about this blasphemous PR of a non-existent fighter, all the more the whole purpose of this colorful PR is to see the reaction of potential buyers, and then, if they appear, to blind the fighter from the available proprietary technologies (Su-35S, Su-57 , MiG-35 and UAV Okhotnik) and customer technologies similar to the Israeli F-35. Everything is far-fetched and too boldly stated. Western technologies also do not stand still, and it is not known what will already be in the "hardware" on the same F-35 and similar ones by 2024-26. In addition, Russia and the West are already in full swing preparing for the transfer of power in the next presidential elections in Russia or a boycott of their results by the West, in the event of Putin's re-election. Undercover games, undercover, agitational and subversive activities are already in full swing. And by the promised time of the first takeoff of the SU-75, a lot may have changed and it is quite possible that there will be no time for it and the given promises.
    1. Runner2022
      Runner2022 19 November 2021 14: 15
      -3
      Two okay, some here believe in the reality of the existence of the NGAD demonstrator laughing
      1. Kushka
        Kushka 19 November 2021 15: 17
        +5
        Then someone squeezed a photo of Stalin and mentioned the Kolyma.
        There was such a Kolyma joke
        -Nasyalnik, will there be a teahouse?
        - I won't tell you for tea, but there will be a khan.
        To paraphrase:
        For check I will not say, but checkmate will be.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 19 November 2021 21: 02
          +3
          and mate will be
          Only, for whom - that's what the interesting question is !? recourse
          1. Kushka
            Kushka 19 November 2021 21: 04
            +3
            What are you talking about?
            I mean the perfect one.
            1. Intruder
              Intruder 19 November 2021 21: 06
              +2
              I'm talking about selected
              Oh, you mean this, and I mean whom to get it in 2023, if it sings about shifts to the right, sanctions and tricks of the ubiquitous State Department and foreign agents of the West!
              1. Kushka
                Kushka 19 November 2021 21: 30
                +5
                Tomatoes, parmesan and jamon are that sanctions?
                After 1945, no sanctions and no State Department
                did not prevent Stalin and Beria from creating atomic weapons,
                build the first nuclear submarine and launch a satellite into Earth orbit.
                (Imagine that the aforementioned leaders of the country
                even in a sweet dream, they did not see billions of dollars in income from
                overseas sales of four hundred billion cubic meters of gas and more
                two hundred million tons of oil)
                1. Intruder
                  Intruder 19 November 2021 21: 59
                  +3
                  Imagine that the aforementioned leaders of a country
                  even in a sweet dream, they did not see billions of dollars in income from
                  overseas sales of four hundred billion cubic meters of gas and more
                  two hundred million tons of oil
                  Yes, I already believe, although I did not live in those days, but listened with bated breath about the next expedition "Soyuz-TM", to the station "Mir", from a black-and-white TV with a picture tube "Foton-225" yes , there was a twist of a rollcode, a channel selector - it broke fingernails perfectly when switching, there was a fence device, everything was hard-core and without nails ... laughing
  34. Radikal
    Radikal 19 November 2021 15: 27
    +8
    In general, we live in a strange world. There would be a reason to raise a noise - and it will be raised. These are the modern laws of the infosphere.
    The world such as has developed in the 21st century is the world of PR technologies! In any case, they have mastered them perfectly in the Russian Federation! You can do nothing, bankrupt enterprises that could produce high-tech products in the future, while producing cartoons, indistinct videos, and tell on all media platforms that we have all the best .... And you can, as it was before, show nothing and no one, and not tell, nevertheless develop, release, and then show, let's say, at air parades in Tushino! Here is an example of the work of the military-industrial complex of the USSR.
    Feel the difference! bully
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 19 November 2021 21: 01
      +2
      Feel the difference!
      get the Soviet passport out of your wide legs ... and feel where your Motherland is, son ... good !? drinks
  35. Glagol1
    Glagol1 19 November 2021 15: 42
    +5
    The government should provide the Far East with a wage supplement subsidy. All employed people. Workers, doctors, drivers, etc. You work for KNAAPO, about 45 thousand from the plant and another 15 thousand subsidies from the state. Otherwise, everything there will be depopulated, a difficult place to live. Okay Vladik, it’s still not bad there, and we have invested there, and it’s almost south, but in many other places ...
    1. Alf
      Alf 19 November 2021 20: 33
      +1
      Quote: Glagol1
      The government should provide the Far East with a wage supplement subsidy. All employed people. Workers, doctors, drivers, etc. You work for KNAAPO, about 45 thousand from the plant and another 15 thousand subsidies from the state.

      And where to get such a bag of dough? There is no such possibility in Russia, and the authorities will not allow introducing a floating income tax scale or spending revenues on raising industry.
      1. ramzay21
        ramzay21 19 November 2021 22: 23
        +4
        And where to get such a bag of dough? There is no such possibility in Russia, and the authorities will not allow introducing a floating income tax scale or spending revenues on raising industry.

        Now in Russia only 1/4 of the proceeds from the sale of raw materials go to the state budget, plus even according to optimistic data from the Accounts Chamber of the State Duma, 30% of the state budget is stolen. As you can see, there is money, just the country's leadership does not want to take it away from embezzlers and oligarchs, and the leadership has long given a damn about the people.
        1. Alf
          Alf 19 November 2021 22: 26
          +5
          Quote: ramzay21
          As you can see, there is money, just the country's leadership does not want to take it away from embezzlers and oligarchs, and the leadership has long given a damn about the people.

          So what am I talking about? Just touch the topic of money, then they blow our ears that there is no money, that we eat up almost the last horseradish without salt, but what about the tax or the export of money to offshore, so everything is in order. As they said in Elusive, there is money, but not about your honor.
        2. Alf
          Alf 19 November 2021 22: 27
          +5
          Quote: ramzay21
          the country's leadership does not want to take them away from embezzlers and oligarchs,

          How can you take away from friends? You swung at sacred friendship!
        3. avg avg
          avg avg 20 November 2021 12: 06
          -1
          Quote: ramzay21
          optimistic data of the Accounts Chamber of the State Duma is plundered 30% of the state budget.

          Tell us, pliz, what kind of joint venture of the State Duma is and give also a link to the "optimistic data" on% of budget embezzlement!
  36. huntsman650
    huntsman650 19 November 2021 17: 48
    +7
    How can you compare something that is practically absent or the cat cried))))? MIC military propaganda complex))))
  37. Dkuznecov
    Dkuznecov 19 November 2021 18: 40
    +8
    In the meantime, Airbus has reported contracts for the purchase of 408 aircraft from Dubai.
    I went to the UAC website - only a note: "At the joint stand of the UAC enterprises in the form of models and in a multimedia exhibition the current aircraft-building programs of the corporation's enterprises were presented, including the Su-57, Su-35, MiG-35, Yak-130, Il-76MD-90A, Il-114-300, Be-200, Superjet 100, MS-21. "
    About the concluded contracts are silent, like fish.
    1. Alf
      Alf 19 November 2021 20: 34
      +3
      Quote: DKuznecov
      About the concluded contracts are silent, like fish.

      So that the enemies do not know ahead of time. laughing
  38. Volder
    Volder 19 November 2021 18: 56
    -4
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    The Indians refused to work together because they believe that Russian-developed combat avionics, radars and sensors do not meet the standards of a fifth-generation combat aircraft.
    Standards are not defined by Indians. Moreover, they do not know the "standards" of the American F-35. The one with many defects and operating restrictions.
    The American plane has one undeniable advantage: it does.
    If we talk about tactical and technical characteristics, about the range of weapons and the price, then the F-35 loses to our Su-57.
    1. Runner2022
      Runner2022 19 November 2021 19: 14
      -6
      Plus to everything - the F-5 has nothing to do with the 35th generation except for the alleged availability of stealth technology. A technology that was recognized as ineffective even during the Soviet era
      1. Outsider
        Outsider 21 November 2021 21: 16
        -1
        - Her only sofa hamsters were "recognized as ineffective", and all competent military men around the world recognize it as more than effective... But to achieve the required level of stealth is not given to everyone, alas ...
  39. Grognag
    Grognag 19 November 2021 20: 37
    +2
    Phew what a non-patriotic article, of course, by the year 23 there will be 75 flocks of 57 flying after the legions of XNUMX and over the columns ormattt
  40. AML
    AML 19 November 2021 20: 50
    -2
    Quote: Bradley

    Here the question is only about the radar. Give everyone AFAR.
    And for missiles he has RVV-SD, for example.



    I asked the question several times, maybe you know. Why is AFAR better than PFAR?
    1. Outsider
      Outsider 20 November 2021 14: 29
      -1
      - First of all - the opportunity simultaneous generating probing pulses at several different frequencies and with several different signal structures... What is especially important for LPI modes - low probability of intercept - the plane irradiates you, aims its missiles at you, but your radio reconnaissance station and radiation warning station do not feel this ... crying
      Well, and "on the little things": greater efficiency, greater reliability ...
  41. Intruder
    Intruder 19 November 2021 20: 58
    +3
    Thanks to the author, I described it very correctly ... hi But the video is still valid !? Straight play of shadows good !!!
  42. AML
    AML 19 November 2021 20: 59
    0
    Quote: DKuznecov
    In the meantime, Airbus has reported contracts for the purchase of 408 aircraft from Dubai.


    And how do you like this arithmetic. There are 28 countries in the EU 408/28 = 14.6 And this contract will be stretched for 10 years. That is, it turns out that on average in the chamber, 1 EU country produces one and a half aircraft per year. Just scratch, what the pace.

    Let's compare the RF with the whole world. The whole world is probably doing more.
  43. Radikal
    Radikal 19 November 2021 21: 03
    +2
    Quote: Intruder
    Feel the difference!
    get the Soviet passport out of your wide legs ... and feel where your Motherland is, son ... good !? drinks

    I'm 63, and you a baby? laughing hi drinks soldier
  44. ramzay21
    ramzay21 19 November 2021 22: 07
    +4
    The failure of the Su-57 speaks of a systemic crisis, if not the collapse of the entire aircraft industry.
    If money is not invested in fundamental research, in new developments and production, then a sad result is obtained, which is visible to all really thinking people.
    Now the money left after the sawing goes into PR, therefore there is only one hype, presentations and shows, only there is nothing to show, they have lived to the point that they admire a wooden model, at the level of crafts of the House of Pioneers in the USSR.
    1. alexvmar
      alexvmar 19 November 2021 22: 14
      -3
      What are you talking about? Are you sick?
      1. ramzay21
        ramzay21 19 November 2021 22: 35
        +3
        What are you talking about? Are you sick?

        This statement is for those who think with their own heads. This does not apply to those who prefer to live in the world of pink ponies.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Runner2022
      Runner2022 19 November 2021 22: 21
      -3
      First, you would familiarize yourself with what the Su-57 combat vehicle is, before writing slogans and chants
      1. ramzay21
        ramzay21 19 November 2021 22: 32
        +3
        So can you then tell us why the Su-35 is actually being produced instead of such a successful aircraft? And why did they kick out the creator of this amazing aircraft and why, having familiarized themselves with it and with the F-35, the Indians left the project on the fifth generation?
        1. Runner2022
          Runner2022 19 November 2021 22: 42
          -4
          So, what do we have at this stage, specifically what the Su-57 is and how it differs from the F-22 and 35.
          1) The world's first combat fighter with optional unmanned mode
          2) The world's first fighter capable of carrying hypersonic missiles.
          3) The world's first fighter with actually working stealth technology (none of the 57x transfers to the SAR were tracked by the radars of either Israel, Turkey, or NATO as a whole.
          4) The world's first fighter capable of flying drones as part of a single complex
          5) flight characteristics exceeding even the flight characteristics of the Su-35 of the most maneuverable MFI in the world.
          6) And this is only from the known

          Ps As for the Indians - in general, I consider it to be a daring wildest stupidity to take into account the opinion of a country that has not even created a biplane in its entire history and has a zero school of aircraft construction)
          1. ramzay21
            ramzay21 20 November 2021 09: 41
            +6
            I asked you very specific questions, and you are retelling fairy tales that are not even spoken about on TV.
            Why was Poghosyan kicked out quietly if he created such an outstanding plane as you describe?
            Why, against the background of the large-scale production of the F-35 and the arrival of this aircraft into the armament of the Air Force of our neighbors, are we only serially producing the Su-35 and not such a wonderful Su-57?
            And the answers to your statements.
            1) The Su-57 cannot fly without a pilot and there have never been such tests, which means this is not true.
            2) The Su-57, like the F-22 or the F-35 or the F-15EX or the Su-30, are capable of carrying any missiles of the class for which they have avionics, and these subsonic or hypersonic missiles are the tenth issue. And by the way, the Dagger was the first to start wearing the MiG-31, originally from the 70s, which, by definition, is not a modern aircraft.
            3) If you were not told on TV that someone tracked the movement of the Su-57 to Syria, this does not mean at all that no one really noticed these movements, you are confusing reconnaissance and stealth, these are completely different things.
            The Syrian radars of the S-300 complexes really cannot track the movements of the F-35 of the Israeli Air Force and cannot attack them, this is stealth technology in action.
            4) Su-57 flew once with the UAV, this can be done by the F-16 and MiG-21 and An-2
            5) No one has ever argued that the F-35 is the most maneuverable MFI in the world, in terms of this indicator it is significantly inferior to the Su-35, and the Americans admit this. Super-maneuverability looks beautiful on the show, and the F-35 surpasses the Su-57 in EPR values ​​and in avionics capabilities, and this is crucial for modern air combat, because the F-35 pilot will notice the Su-57 much earlier and attack earlier.
            I hope we're done with the myths.
            1. Runner2022
              Runner2022 20 November 2021 10: 00
              -4
              One of the stages of brain development is its ability to analyze spatial processes and decompose them into steps. The more steps the brain can, rewind, back from a particular process and predict the process forward, the higher the level of brain development.

              Ps study the materiel, there is enough information on the 57th even in the public domain, while I see from you a set of stereotyped phrases and a rather primitive analysis. And about ,, super-maneuverability is needed only on the show ,, - this is the top laughing
              1. ramzay21
                ramzay21 20 November 2021 21: 46
                +1
                Everything is clear, you have amazing knowledge!
            2. FRoman1984
              FRoman1984 21 November 2021 05: 14
              -4
              Quote: ramzay21
              Super-maneuverability looks beautiful on the show, and the F-35 surpasses the Su-57 in EPR values ​​and in avionics capabilities, and this is crucial for modern air combat, because the F-35 pilot will notice the Su-57 much earlier and attack earlier.

              Sorry, but this is a misconception. How will the F-35 spot the Su-57 earlier? The F-35 pilot should turn on the radar, right? As soon as he turns on his AN / APG-81 radar, he will become visible to the Su-57 pilot at the maximum distance possible for the Belka.
              All these stealth technologies do not work in the context of fighter-to-fighter air combat. They make sense when delivering gifts for stationary purposes, when the radar does not need to be turned on to determine coordinates and launch a rocket / bomb, which is exactly what the Israelis do.
              1. Outsider
                Outsider 21 November 2021 21: 19
                +1
                LPI mode - low probability of intercept - never heard of?
                1. FRoman1984
                  FRoman1984 23 November 2021 07: 29
                  -2
                  Quote: Outsider
                  LPI mode - low probability of intercept - never heard of?

                  I heard, but this mode is not for aiming and attacking a target, based on open sources. Exclusively for target detection. It is completely unknown what its real working distances are: tens of miles / km, one hundred, 150?
                  Plus, any emitted signal, contrary to all the fables, is visible. This is physics.
              2. ramzay21
                ramzay21 22 November 2021 20: 11
                +1
                Sorry, but this is a misconception. How will the F-35 spot the Su-57 earlier? The F-35 pilot should turn on the radar, right?

                1) The F-35 has less EPR than the Su-57, which means that, with equal characteristics of avionics, the Su-57 can be seen farther than the F-35.
                2) The F-35 avionics includes not only the AN / APG-81 radar, with the most outstanding characteristics to date, and capable of operating in LPI mode, excluding the detection of another aircraft by the radar, but also the AN / AAQ-37 optoelectronic system, with six infrared sensors providing all-round visibility and capable of detecting and tracking both aircraft and explosive missiles and ground targets. By the way, the AN / AAQ-37 optical-electronic system in 2011 detected and tracked a ballistic missile at a distance of 1300 km.
                That is, the F-35 pilot does not need to "turn on the radar", he has sufficient means of detecting other aircraft, excluding detection by other aircraft. Israeli F-35 pilots who freely move in Syrian airspace, despite the presence of S-300 complexes in Syria, are taking advantage of these opportunities.
                But we are all sad with the Su-57. The Belka radar is of course classified, but apparently its characteristics are much more modest, it has a passive mode, with much more modest characteristics and no LPI mode, so our pilot does not have much choice, but if he turns on the radar in active mode, it will become visible for hundreds of kilometers to any modern radar.
                1. FRoman1984
                  FRoman1984 23 November 2021 07: 50
                  -1
                  Quote: ramzay21
                  Sorry, but this is a misconception. How will the F-35 spot the Su-57 earlier? The F-35 pilot should turn on the radar, right?

                  1) The F-35 has less EPR than the Su-57, which means that, with equal characteristics of avionics, the Su-57 can be seen farther than the F-35.
                  2) The F-35 avionics includes not only the AN / APG-81 radar, with the most outstanding characteristics to date, and capable of operating in LPI mode, excluding the detection of another aircraft by the radar, but also the AN / AAQ-37 optoelectronic system, with six infrared sensors providing all-round visibility and capable of detecting and tracking both aircraft and explosive missiles and ground targets. By the way, the AN / AAQ-37 optical-electronic system in 2011 detected and tracked a ballistic missile at a distance of 1300 km.
                  That is, the F-35 pilot does not need to "turn on the radar", he has sufficient means of detecting other aircraft, excluding detection by other aircraft. Israeli F-35 pilots who freely move in Syrian airspace, despite the presence of S-300 complexes in Syria, are taking advantage of these opportunities.
                  But we are all sad with the Su-57. The Belka radar is of course classified, but apparently its characteristics are much more modest, it has a passive mode, with much more modest characteristics and no LPI mode, so our pilot does not have much choice, but if he turns on the radar in active mode, it will become visible for hundreds of kilometers to any modern radar.

                  1. Please re-read what I wrote again. Nobody argues about EPR.
                  2. LPI. What is the detection range of a target such as a Su-35 fighter in the front hemisphere, back? Probably, someone knows, but it is unlikely that they will ever say. In addition, the information is classified, and it is difficult to imagine how, albeit insignificant emissions, according to the statement, will not be noticed. Any radiation can be traced. The question is distance.
                  Both the Su-57 and the Su-35 have OLS. Here is parity. But the OLS will not aim the missile, that is, you need to turn on the radar. And LPI, most likely, will not aim the rocket either, so you need to turn on the radar again. And the Su-57 has an OLS, which will also find the F-22 for sure, the EPR will not help.
                  1. ramzay21
                    ramzay21 23 November 2021 10: 33
                    0
                    2. LPI. What is the detection range of a target such as a Su-35 fighter in the front hemisphere, back? Probably, someone knows, but it is unlikely that they will ever say.

                    The Americans are far from what our media want to present them and they made a radar station capable of operating in LPI mode on the F-22, they studied this mode and worked it out in practice. Naturally, the characteristics of this mode are classified, but since this mode was pumped onto the F-35 radar, it gives good results. According to open information in the LPI mode, the radar emits short-term low-power pulses in a wide frequency range, which merge with the natural background and are practically not detected by modern radars, and the processor calculates the location of targets by these pulses and issues the control center to missile weapons.
                    Both the Su-57 and the Su-35 have OLS. Here is parity. But the OLS will not aim the missile, that is, you need to turn on the radar.

                    VAZ-2106 and Mercedes S560 are cars, they just have different characteristics, like the avionics F-35 and Su-57.
                    Yes, according to open information, the AN / AAQ-37 optoelectronic system provides only target detection, but the F-35 avionics have another system, an AAQ-40 high-resolution omnidirectional infrared CCD-TV camera, which is designed for viewing and target designation ... It provides the capture and tracking of any ground, surface and air targets. Completely passive, it is capable of detecting and tracking targets automatically and at a great distance, as well as reporting laser irradiation of the aircraft.
                    The Su-57 has only an OES with infrared sensors and much more modest characteristics, but there is no analogue of the AAQ-40 on the Su-57, as well as there are no possibilities for issuing a control center. As for the Su-35, there is no OES from the word at all, it can only be equipped with a container-type OES, with much more modest characteristics than on the Su-57 and because of this a small viewing angle.

                    There is no parity in the ECO between the F-35 and the Su-57, and even more so the Su-35 is not and cannot be due to the completely different level of development of these means in our country and with them, do not pass off wishful thinking.
  45. alexvmar
    alexvmar 19 November 2021 22: 13
    -2
    To the author: there will be a video! Everything, go to sleep.
  46. silver_roman
    silver_roman 19 November 2021 22: 40
    +3
    45 ... it's just a shame!
  47. Radikal
    Radikal 19 November 2021 23: 26
    +4
    In general, we live in a strange world. There would be a reason to raise a noise - and it will be raised. These are the modern laws of the infosphere.
    In the world we live in the same way as we did several centuries ago. And in this world there are still (for now) six parts of the world. However, what the author says is simply called profanity and imitation. It is a modern style of power at all levels. The media are focused on this, one TV channel "Zvezda" is trying so hard, trying so hard .... The presenters of this channel jump out of their pants to convince us in the hostile environment of the Russian Federation, although we are already aware of it ... Only now they "forget" to say why the children of officials of all levels (so, just in case - the vertical of power) learn from "enemies", and then return here to possession .... Influence agents? All those educational institutions there are the forge of personnel for the CIA, MI6, BND and ... MOSSAD. The topic is voluminous, the format does not allow to continue. sad
  48. silviu
    silviu 20 November 2021 00: 46
    -1
    the SU-35 with a new design will turn out again
    1. Runner2022
      Runner2022 20 November 2021 12: 19
      -1
      American F-15 EX - the deadliest aircraft in the United States, represents the pinnacle of technology, from the old F-15 - only a glider

      The Russian Su-35 is an updated design of the ancient Su-27. And do not care what, Raptor, for him - a target for a warm-up.

      Ps sarcasm laughing
      1. Outsider
        Outsider 20 November 2021 14: 39
        0
        Runner2022, you already "either take off the cross, or put on your panties", - then you have the F-15EX - "the deadly pinnacle of technology", then you have "F-22 and F-35 - it sucks" ... laughing lol May be, you just don’t understand a damn thing about military aviation ?! And carry the same endless blizzard? wink
        1. Runner2022
          Runner2022 20 November 2021 16: 15
          -2
          ))

          Russian Su-35 fighters can pose a deadly threat to the fifth generation of the US Air Force - the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. This was announced at the beginning of the week by the American magazine The National Interest. Analysts of the publication believe that the main advantage of the Russian aircraft over opponents in air combat is its unsurpassed maneuverability. According to the author of the publication, the Su-35 is perhaps the best fighter in the history of aviation for short-range combat. And stealth and long-range air-to-air missiles do not guarantee an easy victory for the latest American aircraft.
          1. Outsider
            Outsider 20 November 2021 16: 38
            +2
            Russian Su-35 fighters can pose a deadly threat to the fifth generation of the US Air Force - the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. This was announced at the beginning of the week by the American magazine The National Interest.

            - The owner of this magazine is Dmitry Simes, a "sent Cossack" to the United States 40 years ago. Only reindeer herders from the most remote areas of Chukotka can trust this magazine, which is published with the money of the Kremlin. It is ridiculous and ashamed to refer to this magazine to a literate kid.
            Analysts of the publication believe that the main advantage of the Russian aircraft over opponents in an air battle is its unsurpassed maneuverability.

            - That journalist who sprinkled this paid article, completely, like, does not know that the F-22 is killing its opponents in 98% cases in long-range missile combat - what does maneuverability have to do with it?
            According to the author of the publication, the Su-35 is perhaps the best fighter in the history of aviation for short-range combat.

            - See above. The problem is that the Su-35S versus the F-22 only has 2 chance of 100 generally live up to the BVB! lol
            And stealth and long-range air-to-air missiles do not guarantee an easy victory for the latest American aircraft.

            - That is the sadness that they guarantee - with an extremely high probability... It's just that the Russian media do not disclose this main state secret to the glorious Russians. IT'S A SECRET! wink

            1. Runner2022
              Runner2022 20 November 2021 16: 41
              -2
              Pfft ... there is a huge heap of analyzes of the LTH ,, Raptor, in comparison with the Su-35, google, you will be surprised)
            2. FRoman1984
              FRoman1984 21 November 2021 05: 30
              -2
              One more.
              To detect the Su-35S earlier, aim and fire the missile, the F-22A pilot will need to turn on the radar. As soon as he turns on the radar, the Su-35 pilot will detect him. At any distance accessible to the Irbis. Stealth will not be effective in air combat. It is needed to defeat stationary ground targets when coordinates are entered into the missile unit in advance, and the pilot needs to come up and launch without turning on the radar. Example, Israeli F-35 and the Syrian direction of their use.
            3. FRoman1984
              FRoman1984 21 November 2021 05: 31
              -1
              Quote: Outsider
              Russian Su-35 fighters can pose a deadly threat to the fifth generation of the US Air Force - the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. This was announced at the beginning of the week by the American magazine The National Interest.

              - The owner of this magazine is Dmitry Simes, a "sent Cossack" to the United States 40 years ago. Only reindeer herders from the most remote areas of Chukotka can trust this magazine, which is published with the money of the Kremlin. It is ridiculous and ashamed to refer to this magazine to a literate kid.
              Analysts of the publication believe that the main advantage of the Russian aircraft over opponents in an air battle is its unsurpassed maneuverability.

              - That journalist who sprinkled this paid article, completely, like, does not know that the F-22 is killing its opponents in 98% cases in long-range missile combat - what does maneuverability have to do with it?
              According to the author of the publication, the Su-35 is perhaps the best fighter in the history of aviation for short-range combat.

              - See above. The problem is that the Su-35S versus the F-22 only has 2 chance of 100 generally live up to the BVB! lol
              And stealth and long-range air-to-air missiles do not guarantee an easy victory for the latest American aircraft.

              - That is the sadness that they guarantee - with an extremely high probability... It's just that the Russian media do not disclose this main state secret to the glorious Russians. IT'S A SECRET! wink


              One more.
              To detect the Su-35S earlier, aim and fire the missile, the F-22A pilot will need to turn on the radar. As soon as he turns on the radar, the Su-35 pilot will detect him. At any distance accessible to the Irbis. Stealth will not be effective in air combat. It is needed to defeat stationary ground targets when coordinates are entered into the missile unit in advance, and the pilot needs to come up and launch without turning on the radar. Example, Israeli F-35 and the Syrian direction of their use.
              1. Outsider
                Outsider 21 November 2021 10: 56
                -2
                To detect the Su-35S earlier, aim and fire the missile, the F-22A pilot will need to turn on the radar. As soon as he turns on the radar, the Su-35 pilot will detect him. At any distance accessible to the Irbis. Stealth will not be effective in air combat. It is needed to defeat stationary ground targets, when coordinates are entered into the missile unit in advance, and the pilot needs to come up and launch without turning on the radar.

                - Where does such rubbish in the minds come from ?! They look at the book, but they see - a fig!

                1. Outsider
                  Outsider 21 November 2021 11: 00
                  -2
                  The RCS for air combat has a completely similar effect. Watch carefully!

                  1. FRoman1984
                    FRoman1984 23 November 2021 07: 18
                    0
                    Quote: Outsider
                    The RCS for air combat has a completely similar effect. Watch carefully!



                    Yes, I understand what the pictures are about and what you are talking about. This scenario assumes that the Su-35's radar is on and detects F-22s and F-35s at ranges of 22-36 miles.
                    But the pilot of the F-22/35 must then be a telepath in order to reach the Su-35 without, in turn, the included radar. Who gives instructions on the goal? This drawing only reflects its stealth capabilities. Nobody argues with them. Question: how should a pilot of one of these machines find a target (another aircraft), capture and fire a rocket at it?
                    1. Outsider
                      Outsider 23 November 2021 07: 25
                      -2
                      - Lord, how much can you repeat and talk about LPI mode - low probability of intercept - low probability of interception ?! Outline already?
                      https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-avionics.htm
                      The Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability of the radar defeats conventional RWR / ESM systems. The AN / APG-77 radar is capable of performing an active radar search on RWR / ESM equipped fighter aircraft without the target knowing he is being illuminated. Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN / APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar's signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as a conventional radar, but because each LPI pulse has considerably less amount of energy and may not fit normal modulation patterns, the target would have a difficult time detecting the F-22.

                      The low probability of interception (LPI) of the radar is superior to conventional ETR / OSP systems. The AN / APG-77 radar is capable of conducting an active radar search for fighters equipped with RTR / OSP, they do not know that the target is being irradiated. Unlike conventional radars, which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN / APG-77 emits low energy pulses in a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as that of conventional radar, but since each LPI pulse has significantly less energy and may not match normal modulation patterns, the F-22 will be difficult to detect.
  49. Garris199
    Garris199 20 November 2021 04: 22
    +2
    It is necessary to give people a salary of 150-200 thousand rubles and specialists will come to the enterprise and build everything in the best possible way and in the required quantity. The costs of salary can be compensated by a markup of, say, 10-15% for the finished product. Investments are needed, but not in the pockets of managers and greedy officials, but in production and scientific assets. This is 45 thousand laughter! I wonder how we still produce anything else.
  50. AML
    AML 20 November 2021 04: 36
    -1
    Quote: Garris199
    It is necessary to give people a salary of 150-200 thousand rubles and specialists will come to the enterprise and build everything in the best possible way and in the required quantity

    And we will automatically get an increase in the cost of production by 5 times. How do you like this alignment? Or do you also propose to compensate for the increase in the cost of production? Well then, is it easier to buy in China? What is not? Anything will be cheaper.