Military Review

Legal aspect. General Pavlov's trial

272
Legal aspect. General Pavlov's trial

I’ll make a reservation right away, if it were different - and it is possible that Dmitry Grigorievich would have ended the war in 1945, commanding tank army or, with luck, even the front, would have died in the 60s and 70s in honor and entwined with the laurels of the winner, and they would also write about him as about Chuikov or Rybalko.


But история He does not know the subjunctive mood, and our hero ended up where he found himself: in that very terrible June 1941, he served as commander of the Western Special Military District. But the road that brought the rather inexperienced commander to such a height was interesting.

Peasant son


A peasant son from a wealthy family in the Kostroma province (a two-year school and exams for the fourth grade of a gymnasium were not cheap), at the age of 17 he went to the front as a volunteer. He rose to the rank of non-commissioned officer, was captured on the Stokhod River, where he remained until 1919. Upon returning home, he worked for his father, then as an official, and only by the end of the year was mobilized in the Red Army.

A couple of conclusions suggest themselves at once: a smart and ambitious person, he did not hold on to the village, on the contrary, he was eager to get into the city with all his might, a war in this capacity is also a way, because from a free operator to an officer in wartime there is only one step. He was also not an ideological communist, he did not volunteer in the Red Army, although he had considerable military experience.

Although it was the Red Army, in need of literate people who were not associated with the old regime, that gave him everything. There he joined the RCP (b), there he received a military education, served in administrative positions and in just two years became a regiment commander in the cavalry.

Pavlov's combat experience during the Civil War is specific - Turkestan. The Basmachi were, of course, a fanatical and strong enemy, but that RIA, that the Red Army always beat the sons of the steppes and deserts, even with a ratio of one to ten not in their favor. Technique and tactics are primary, and personal courage in the era of the industrial revolution is secondary.

In 1925, a perspective shot was sent to the Frunze Academy. Promising, of course, not in terms of awards and experience, but in origin and education. We had few literate peasant sons who had a non-commissioned school and four grades of gymnasium behind them, plus some sort of combat experience. In this, Pavlov's career is very similar to that of Zhukov and many others: the former officers were not trusted and they were being prepared to replace them.

In 1929, Pavlov had a third war - he, as the commander of the cavalry regiment, fought on the CER. He fights well, but again - the experience is short and specific. But after that - Moscow, the military-technical academy, and the cavalryman Pavlov becomes a tanker. And not just a tanker, but the commander of the 6th mechanized regiment, one of the first in the Red Army. And in 1934 - the commander of the 4th Mechanized Brigade, the best brigade of the Belarusian Military District.

Further - Spain, where they were selected, young (Pavlov - 40 years old) and promising. He showed himself there well, as the commander of a tank regiment and brigade, and the result: from July 1937 Pavlov - head of the armored department of the Red Army.

His participation in Khalkhin Gol and the Winter War is purely decorative - he did not lead troops into battle, and in the summer of 1940, a year before the war, Pavlov took over the Western Special Military District (ZOVO), which he led to the disaster.

What's wrong with his career?


Pavlov commanded neither a platoon, nor a company, nor a battalion, he immediately received a regiment. Moreover, the regiment is cavalry, it has its own specifics, especially during the Civil War, in Turkestan, where there was no front, but there was an anti-partisan operation.

Further - the mechanized brigade, the case for the Red Army is new and incomprehensible. In theory, everyone understood what tank troops were and how to use them, but in practice ... In reality, even the Germans in Poland were mistaken at first and took a long time to select the optimal staff for a tank division.

After the brigade commander - an administrative position, the chief tanker was engaged in training, mastering and choosing equipment, generalizing combat experience, but did not command real troops, and then - the district. District through the steps of division commander, corps commander and army commander. The divisional commander would have come out of him, probably, good, and the corps commander too, but he had four armies, mechanized corps, rifle corps, airborne corps and so on.

And the weakness of the staff, so young and early in the Red Army was the sea. The Air Force and tank troops were created practically from scratch in the 30s, and in the traditional branches of the army, old personnel were removed with might and main, and new ones ... One part burned down in 1937, the other had little experience.

To put it bluntly: professional cyclists were entrusted with KAMAZ at the Paris-Dakar rally.

There were no others, and this, on the one hand, justifies Pavlova, but on the other, it is the other way around. For a career in the Stalinist USSR, they were not forced, hardly an evil Chekist with a revolutionary revolver stood behind Pavlov's back, and even Commissar Mehlis hardly. Actually, Pavlov combined two positions for a long time - commander and commissar.

The language of law


And if the language of law:

193_17. a) Abuse of power, excess of power, inaction of power, as well as negligent attitude towards the service of a person in command of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army, if these acts were committed systematically, or for selfish reasons or other personal interest, as well as if they had as their consequence the disorganization of those entrusted forces, or the case entrusted to him, or the disclosure of military secrets, or other grave consequences, or even if they did not have the indicated consequences, but certainly could have them, or were committed in wartime, or in a combat situation, entail -
imprisonment for a term of not less than six months.
b) The same acts, in the presence of especially aggravating circumstances, entail -
the highest measure of social protection.

The inaction of the authorities and disorganization are evident. And also there is:

193_20. a) surrender to the enemy by the head of the military forces entrusted to him, abandonment to the enemy, destruction or rendering into disrepair by the head of the fortifications, warships, military aircraft, artillery, military depots and other means of warfare, as well as the failure of the head to take appropriate measures to destroy or disabling the listed means of warfare, when they are in immediate danger of being captured by the enemy and all methods have already been used to preserve them, if the actions specified in this article are committed in order to assist the enemy, entail - the highest measure of social protection with confiscation of property.

Abandoned mountains of equipment, captured soldiers and fortifications. Moreover, there can be no question of a scapegoat - many were tried in 1941, but not all.

For example, there were no special questions about the command of Kiev, as well as about the command of the Baltic. Kuznetsov failed - he was removed and that was all. And Pavlov not only failed - he failed the case.

And the problem was not defeat; defeat was inevitable. The fact is that from the second day of the war the front commander lost control of the troops and did not understand the situation (from the word in general), giving inadequate orders.

As, for example, the impact of the 6th mechanized corps of Khatskilevich into the void without air defense and air cover. Either the non-withdrawal of troops from the Brest citadel, or the concentration along the border of a double set of aircraft, or ... Pavlov had a lot of these “ors”.

But, let's say, this did not work out to the north:

On June 18, 1941, parts of the corps were raised on alert and withdrawn to the concentration areas, thus, by June 22, 1941, the 2nd Panzer Division was in the area of ​​the Gaizhuny station, Rukle, the 5th Panzer Division was concentrated several kilometers south of Alytus, and 84 -I motorized division in the woods near Kaishadoris.

So Kuznetsov remained the commander of the army.

The rest is politics from Nikita Sergeevich to the current decommunization.

If we consider the issue from the legal and factual point of view, on what the court was based when it pronounced the verdict, then the grounds for conviction were obvious. Why did I, occupying such a post where I could influence one way or the other in deciding important issues, agreed to their rehabilitation? I agreed because it was not Pavlov who was to blame at the core, but Stalin.

Stalin is to blame, and to the point, he forced poor Pavlov to command the district, forced him not to be able to control the troops and not to control inexperienced subordinates.

Another analogy is that a maniac killed hundreds of people, but he must be justified, because the state is guilty at the core: the school brought up the wrong way, and they did not see it in time.

Stupidity?

Stupidity, but about Pavlov, everyone perceives it as the norm.

And so he is a victim, of course, that of an era when you needed a lot and at once, and there was nothing that his career ambitions, when the peasant's son himself at some point believed that he could do everything and knew more than others.

And behind this tragedy of one little man, terrible figures: 625 thousand servicemen entered the battle, 417 thousand killed and wounded, the front was defeated, hundreds of thousands of lives were lost, the Germans advanced 600 kilometers.

And who will be responsible for them?

After all, you can't blame everything on Stalin? And Pavlov was rehabilitated, with whom it does not happen ...
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  1. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 6 October 2021 05: 25
    +31
    Pavlov was tried and shot for outright criminal inaction, which looks like a deliberate treacherous inaction. If in the Ukraine and the Baltic states, although they were retreating, they did not fall into the cauldrons and did not surrender in hundreds of thousands, as was the case on the Western Front. And by the way, about the garrison of the Brest Fortress, which was trapped with their families, although on June 18, 1941, all districts received an order to evacuate servicemen's families away from the border and withdraw troops to field conditions.
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 6 October 2021 05: 58
      +13
      Put a fool to command the army, and then blame it all on him!

      Now the problem is exactly the same. And even worse. Negative selection in power.

      But there the war straightened everything out. Voroshilov and Budyonny, having lost confidence, remained wedding marshals until the end of the war. But the cost of this error of 41 was enormous.

      What price are we now willing to pay for the stool and rogozins? Isn't a catastrophe like the tragic year 41 awaiting us? And you have to pay. Anyway. Even if there is no war.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 6 October 2021 06: 38
        .
        Quote: Stas157
        What price are we now willing to pay for the stool and rogozins? Isn't a catastrophe like the tragic year 41 awaiting us? And you have to pay. Anyway. Even if there is no war.

        As long as Russia has the Strategic Missile Forces, there will be no intervention.
        1. Vdi73
          Vdi73 6 October 2021 07: 13
          +18
          As long as Russia has the Strategic Missile Forces, there will be no intervention.
          Now the war with us is being waged in a different way and in various ways, economically, cyber, setting fire to borders along the perimeter, etc.
        2. Stas157
          Stas157 6 October 2021 07: 22
          +24
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          As long as Russia has the Strategic Missile Forces, no there will be no intervention.

          And what about the intervention of the Chubais, Manturovs, Mutko ..? Don't you see a problem with negative selection in power?
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 6 October 2021 07: 35
            .
            Quote: Stas157

            And what about the intervention of the Chubais, Manturovs, Mutko ..? Do you see any problem in negative selection in power?

            It is necessary to spend the second 37th year and clear the government of traitors and foreign agents.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 6 October 2021 11: 41
              +17
              It is necessary to spend the second 37th year

              Are you not afraid to get hit by this "broom"? "The wood is chopped - the chips are flying," and not only those who needed to be removed, but also a bunch of small fools who themselves called for this cleaning at every corner, fall into the meat grinder.
              1. motorized rifle
                motorized rifle 6 October 2021 16: 31
                +12
                According to the laws of probability distribution, these small .., comes across an order of magnitude more, alas.
              2. Hiller
                Hiller 7 October 2021 20: 09
                +2
                FSB CA certificate, original.

                The following people went to court: the head of the topographic department, Dorofeev, the head of the staffing department, Kirsanov, the inspector of combat training at the Air Force headquarters, Yurov, and for some reason the head of the military organization Sheinkin. Those same "chips"
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 7 October 2021 20: 23
                  +2
                  Well, the head of the Voentorg because of his position and surname.
            2. citizen
              citizen 6 October 2021 14: 06
              +17
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              It is necessary to spend the second 37th year and clear the government of traitors and foreign agents.

              Let's start with you.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 6 October 2021 17: 38
                +6
                Haarous idea. smile good good good hi
              2. Pereira
                Pereira 6 October 2021 22: 06
                +1
                Why not Burger?
                1. citizen
                  citizen 6 October 2021 22: 36
                  +5
                  It's elementary. Because I do not propose to arrange 37. All the more respected Kot_Kuzya, apparently, has little idea of ​​what happened at 37.
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 6 October 2021 23: 43
                    .
                    Quote: burger
                    All the more respected Kot_Kuzya, apparently, has little idea of ​​what happened at 37.

                    I can imagine it very much. In 1937, thieves felled forests and built roads, and did not roll them out as now in official limousines.
                    1. citizen
                      citizen 6 October 2021 23: 58
                      +4
                      No, you can't imagine. In 37, the majority of convicted peasants and Poles have nothing to do with the government of the state, and even not members of the party. Google the "kulak line" repression and the "national line" repression. There are no leaders from the word at all.
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 7 October 2021 00: 29
                        -9
                        Quote: burger
                        In 37, the majority of convicted peasants and Poles have nothing to do with the government of the state, and even not members of the party.

                        And what does the Poles have to do with it? In fact, in 1937, Lithuania and Galicia, where millions of Poles lived, were not part of the USSR.
                      2. citizen
                        citizen 7 October 2021 01: 16
                        +3
                        What nationality do you think Dzerzhinsky was?
                        Google order number 00485.
                    2. ABC-schütze
                      ABC-schütze 7 October 2021 14: 44
                      +4
                      “No, you can’t imagine. In 37, most of the convicted peasants and Poles had nothing to do with the government of the state, and even not members of the party. Google the repression along the“ kulak line ”and repression along the“ national lines ”.
                      ************************************************** **********
                      Well, before I personally start "googling", you try to clarify your terminology ...

                      For the condemned "peasants" illustrated by the subsequent remark about the "kulak" line are not quite the same thing.

                      Peasants, these are peasants ... And the Kulaks (about 7% of the rural population, in the USSR, who controlled up to 50% of the grain market and had the PRACTICAL possibility of "twisting the hands" of the Soviet government by sabotaging the harvesting industry, especially during the period of forced industrialization), these are kulaks ...

                      In the notorious GULAG, in the ALL PERIOD OF ITS EXISTENCE, the "inmates" on the 58th (with all its "prima"), that is to say, the POLITICAL enemies of the Soviet regime, accounted for no more than 22%. The rest, banal criminals, from whom not a single social system in the world is free ...

                      "Innocent" among them, convicted and repressed on false accusations and denunciations, in general, a few percent, ANY OBJECTIVE REPRESENTATION about the ESSENCE and CHARACTER of Soviet power, IN PRINCIPLE DOES NOT GIVE. And those who cannot give ...

                      As for the party-internal political showdown "at the top," within the framework of the same social system, especially during the period of foreign policy and military threat, then no social system in the world is guaranteed anywhere from such. And it was not and will not be guaranteed ...

                      And, say, the same St. Bartholomew's Night, when some representatives of the "top" beat their "top" counterparts from the "other camp" (with different views on the spiritual foundations of the social foundation), an example ...

                      The "Pole" mentioned by you below, Dzerzhinsky went into another world in 1926 and by the year 1937, for this, the relation has a rather distant relationship ...

                      And the "Pole" Rokossovsky, REALLY, THREE YEARS, who was under investigation on a denunciation, could equally have been recorded as a "Japanese". But, in a strange way, EXACTLY HE, towards V. I. Stalin and his policy, EVEN AFTER Stalin's death, did not express any "claims" ...
                    3. citizen
                      citizen 7 October 2021 15: 46
                      +1
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      Peasants, these are peasants ... And the Kulaks (about 7% of the rural population, in the USSR, who controlled up to 50% of the grain market and had the PRACTICAL possibility of "twisting the hands" of the Soviet government by sabotaging the harvesting industry, especially during the period of forced industrialization), these are kulaks ...

                      In 37, the peasants who were labeled "kulak" had no control over anything for a long time. The bloody campaign of "dispossession" has already passed.
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      In the notorious GULAG, in the ALL PERIOD OF ITS EXISTENCE, the "inmates" on the 58th (with all its "prima"), that is to say, the POLITICAL enemies of the Soviet regime, accounted for no more than 22%. The rest, banal criminals, from whom not a single social system in the world is free ...

                      22% is not enough for you? The whole fault of these peasants was that someone once assigned them the title "kulak" and assigned them a category. It had nothing to do with justice.
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      "Innocent" among them, convicted and repressed on false accusations and denunciations, in general, a few percent, ANY OBJECTIVE REPRESENTATION about the ESSENCE and CHARACTER of Soviet power, IN PRINCIPLE DOES NOT GIVE. And those who cannot give ...

                      What is the fault of these people? That they were once "fists"? Most of them have already been punished for this during the dispossession period, again an absolutely illegal action. Most of these people have not been convicted by the court, the troika is not. This is a gross violation of the current constitution. All people convicted by triplets are not guilty, since their guilt was not established legally.
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      As for the party-internal political showdown "at the top," within the framework of the same social system, especially during the period of foreign policy and military threat, then no social system in the world is guaranteed anywhere from such. And it was not and will not be guaranteed ...

                      And who did this in the XNUMXth century? With the executions? Chinese? Cambodians? All communists.
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      And, say, the same St. Bartholomew's Night, when some representatives of the "top" beat their "top" counterparts from the "other camp" (with different views on the spiritual foundations of the social foundation), an example ...

                      Great example, only 500 years have passed. Not a very complementary comparison for Stalin practically with the Middle Ages.

                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      The "Pole" mentioned by you below, Dzerzhinsky went into another world in 1926 and by the year 1937, for this, the relation has a rather distant relationship ...

                      You do not understand, I just wanted to say that there were Poles in the USSR, and as an example, Dzerzhinsky. Every seventh Pole living in the USSR was repressed just for being a Pole. Again, extrajudicial triplets.
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      And the "Pole" Rokossovsky, REALLY, THREE YEARS, who was under investigation on a denunciation, could equally have been recorded as a "Japanese". But, in a strange way, EXACTLY HE, towards V. I. Stalin and his policy, EVEN AFTER Stalin's death, did not express any "claims" ...

                      AND??? He was clearly not repressed within the framework of order number 00485.
                    4. ivan2022
                      ivan2022 7 October 2021 20: 10
                      +1
                      Quote: burger
                      The whole fault of these peasants was that someone once assigned them the title of "kulak" and assigned them a category. It had nothing to do with justice.

                      If so, then this "nothing to do with justice" was a violation of the law and, therefore, a crime against the authorities and the state. It seems that in the USSR, according to the law, it was not supposed to imprison the innocent and release the guilty? And so "what kind of" this turned in the minds of those like yours, into a "crime of the power itself" - you should have turned to a specialist for a long time ...
                    5. citizen
                      citizen 7 October 2021 20: 56
                      +2
                      Quote: ivan2022
                      If so, then this "nothing to do with justice" was a violation of the law and, therefore, a crime against the authorities and the state.

                      If so, then, according to the current constitution, a citizen of the USSR could only be deprived of freedom or life by a court (the list of courts was attached, triplets were not included in this list). All these rights of citizens were not respected, they were condemned by the so-called albums without the presence of the accused, without defenders, by a body created not even by law, but by a simple order of the NKVD. If the order is contrary to the constitution, it is unconstitutional, if the consequence of this order was the deprivation of the constitutional right of a citizen to freedom and life, then this order is criminal, the people implementing it were criminals (by the way, many did not survive their victims for a long time).

                      Love for Stalin seems to me not very healthy. He is a bloody tyrant responsible for the deaths of millions of Soviet citizens. This is some kind of masochism to dream of a tyrant and his "whips".
                    6. ABC-schütze
                      ABC-schütze 8 October 2021 14: 16
                      +2
                      "Love for Stalin seems to me not very healthy. He is a bloody tyrant, guilty of the deaths of millions of Soviet citizens."
                      ************************************************** **********
                      And I, not very healthy, consider love for the bourgeois democracies, which unleashed TWO WORLD WARS (it was not the "Stalinist USSR that unleashed them ...) and thus ruined HUNDREDS OF MILLION people all over the planet.

                      Both OWN and Soviet citizens, by the way. About whom you so ostentatiously "care" ...

                      True, THESE victims and perished, you and you, for some reason, A CONSEQUENCE of the CRIME of the policy and goals of your social system, "are not considered" ...
                    7. citizen
                      citizen 8 October 2021 14: 54
                      -2
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      And I, not very healthy, consider love for the bourgeois democracies, which unleashed TWO WORLD WARS (it was not the "Stalinist USSR that unleashed them ...) and thus ruined HUNDREDS OF MILLION people all over the planet.

                      I would like to remind you that in 1914 there was no USSR and the Russian Empire played not the last role in unleashing WWI.
                      Who unleashed wars there
                      Austro-Hungarian Empire, Kingdom of Serbia, 2nd Reich, Russian Empire. Which of them was a bourgeois democracy?
                      Regarding WWII, will you be rewriting history and claiming that the war was not started by Nazi Germany under the control of the dictator Hitler? And the losses of the USSR in the Second World War, yes, I agree, under the wise leadership of Joseph Vissarionovich, the union lost more than all the participants in the war in Europe put together.
                    8. ABC-schütze
                      ABC-schütze 10 October 2021 20: 45
                      0
                      "I would like to remind you that in 1914 there was no USSR and the Russian Empire played not the last role in unleashing WWI."
                      ************************************************** ************************************************** ****
                      I would like to remind you that the USSR was not a bourgeois democracy either in 1941 ... And I express the hope that you, "opposing" the quoted quotation, first carefully read it. And, you even understand the meaning of what you read ...
                      For this, your helpless reference to the Russian Empire in the context of unleashing WWI is evidence of your argumentation wretchedness.

                      First, I have never defended it and the social system it represents. Secondly, you have not provided any intelligible arguments in favor of removing the guilt for unleashing the PMA, the bourgeois democracies you represent. For this, the system you represent is guilty before humanity of committing this crime to the same extent as those involved in the unleashing of the WWI monarchy.

                      And the Soviet government brought Russia out of this global massacre arranged by you. As the Bolsheviks promised the people. Moreover, having previously offered you to stop this massacre without annexations and contracts. And you criminally refused it ...
                    9. ABC-schütze
                      ABC-schütze 10 October 2021 20: 53
                      +1
                      tell you "Regarding WWII, will you be rewriting history and claiming that the war was not started by Nazi Germany under the control of the dictator Hitler?"
                      ************************************************* ************************************************* ***
                      No...

                      I'll make it smarter. I will persistently remind you of history. And I will not let you hide behind the bazaar about who the WWII "started", and I will talk about who diligently and purposefully PREPARED it ...

                      And it is you, the bourgeois democracies who lifted your "Versailles restrictions" precisely from NAZI Germany, after Hitler came to power.

                      And they fed him Austria and Czechoslovakia ...
                    10. ABC-schütze
                      ABC-schütze 10 October 2021 21: 19
                      0
                      "And the losses of the USSR in the Second World War, yes, I agree, under the wise leadership of Joseph Vissarionovich, the union lost more than all the participants in the war in Europe put together."
                      ************************************************* ************************************************* ***
                      Under the leadership of JV Stalin, the USSR and the Red Army raised the Banner of Victory over your Berlin. Yes, yes, it is above yours ...

                      And what kind of "participants in the war", in what kind of "Europe" are you talking about? ..

                      If about the so-called. "allies", then they, until June 1944, "outside Europe" were acquired ... And over 70% of the military potential of the Third Reich was "ground up" on the Eastern Front. This is in the context of the aforementioned great losses of the USSR ...

                      By the way, have you noticed that literally in a matter of months, in the war with the Third Reich, you lost LITERALLY "EVERYTHING"? That is, ALL continental Europe, which either fell under Hitler, or actively served him in the status of "allies"? ..

                      Moreover, in nothing the Wehrmacht in terms of weapons and the number of troops is not inferior. Why is this so? .. It seems like there was no "Stalin" with his "catastrophic miscalculations" in Europe ...

                      For sim, while I take my leave. Before going to bed, I warmly recommend that you reread the Bolshevik Decree on Land again. Somewhere "below" you tried to quote him. And try to understand the meaning of what is being read and quoted. Precisely in the context of the unswerving fulfillment by the Bolsheviks of their promises to the PEOPLE in the context of property ... And in the context of your understanding of the gratuitous "use" of land and ownership thereof. And the Bolsheviks never "promised" private ownership of land to anyone. Even to the peasants ...

                      By the way, regarding "slogans and promises ...

                      Your bourgeois "democracies" promised Freedom, Equality and Brotherhood. Moreover, ALL and quite loudly ...

                      Well, and "where" did they "lose" the last two components? .. Moreover, amazingly quickly and without any embarrassment ...
            3. ABC-schütze
              ABC-schütze 8 October 2021 14: 07
              +1
              "In 37, the peasants who were labeled" kulak "had no control over anything for a long time. The bloody campaign of" dispossession "had already passed."
              ************************************************** **********
              Bloody, in relation to themselves, this notorious "campaign" (and not the company), made the kulaks themselves. By our sabotage, in a critical period for the country, the formation of a food base for accelerated industrialization.

              Those kulaks who ACTIVELY resisted the policy of collectivization and were convicted in 1933, sat in camps and colonies, and, by 1937, could not "have served" their sentences in any way. No need to study lyrics ...

              And those who, simply, preventively "resettled" (to distant lands, or within the same district or region, depending on the category of social danger), without imprisonment, in 1937, PASSIVELY resist the Soviet power had the opportunity. Incl. and engaged in "tikharya", anti-Soviet "antikolkhoz" agitation. What did they do ...

              For this, the notorious "dispossession" is not only "technical" confiscation of the people's Soviet power in favor of collective and state farms, kulak land, livestock and implements, but also consistent and difficult work with the public consciousness in the countryside. Most of the adult peasants by that time, it was good if they had mastered "literacy" at the level of "reading by syllables."

              In the direction of transformation of public consciousness to a priority, in the INTERESTS OF GENERAL DEVELOPMENT, of collective interests over private interests. Why "educated" kulaks, incl. the "resettled" resisted. They still had influence on the consciousness of the peasants, who were economically dependent on them only three years ago.

              "22% is not enough in your opinion? All the fault of these peasants was that someone once conferred the title" kulak "on them and assigned them a category. It had nothing to do with justice."
              ************************************************** **********
              It is quite enough to completely dispel the false propaganda myth that during the period of some "Stalinist repressions" of the 30s, "millions of innocent repressed" were in the GULA ...

              The total "population" of GULA-ha has never exceeded 2.5 - 3.0 million people a year. And up to 75% of them were commonplace criminals.

              And those, 22% who were in prison at 58th, were also mostly in prison for the cause, FOR ACTIVE (up to armed) resistance to the policy of collectivization. and ACTIVE Sabotage. For this, these dispossessed and imprisoned characters were not "innocent" ...

              "What is the fault of these people? That they were once" kulaks "? Most of them have already been punished for this during the period of dispossession, again an absolutely illegal action. Most of these people were not convicted by the court, the troika is not a court. This is rude violation of the current constitution .... "
              ************************************************** **********
              Sorry to ask ...

              And what is the "illegality" of dispossession? This POLICY OF LEGAL Soviet power WAS OPENED and OFFICIALLY DECLARED by the Soviet power pretty much before the start of the PRACTICAL implementation of the liquidation of the EXPLOITATOR kulaks in the countryside. And the requisitions of kulak land and property were carried out by the Soviet government, not "in favor of the party," but in favor of the PEOPLE. That is, EVERYTHING confiscated from the kulaks was transferred to COLLECTIVE (people's or public) property. This time ...

              And here there is a fair contrast, for example, with the "land cleansing" carried out by the "market people" in Great Britain, when some, the victorious OPERATORS (bourgeois Protestants) confiscated land and property IN THEIR USE, from other OPERATORS (defeated Catholics-aristocrats and Catholic monasteries), HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of peasants-tenants were expelled from these lands, depriving them of the possibility of existence. And having adopted the "law" on vagrancy, they FORCEDLY drove them as practically them as gratuitous labor for slave labor in their "manufactories". Including children 13 years old ... That's two ...

              In the period of the SCALE construction of a new social formation, the forms, methods and institutions that implement justice are OBJECTIVELY CHANGED CONTINUOUSLY. It's quite normal. And the "troika" of the 30s, in relation to real or potentially anti-Soviet elements, is as NORMAL as the MASS, incl. preventive "revolutionary terror" with its tribunals, during the so-called. "Great French". Moreover, not only in relation to the two "first" estates, but also LITERALLY, in relation to ALL, including peasants, old people, women and children ...

              "An excellent example, only 500 years have passed. Not a very complementary comparison for Stalin with practically the Middle Ages."
              ************************************************** **********
              Not a very convincing "argument" ...

              Yes, even 1000 years have passed. The point is that the POLITICAL BRIBA, incl. in its EXTREMELY ACUTE FORMS, already from the time before the Nativity of Christ, and WILL be conducted (depending on the current situation) not only between the "warring clans", but also within ONE, including the "victorious" clan. And there are NO OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC social laws that would make this struggle, in its "extreme" forms "impossible" or "illogical" in nature and society ...

              Regardless of the "surname" of the leader of the winners. Is it Caesar ... Is it Cromwell ... Is it Catherine de Medici ... Is it Robespierre ... Is it Lincoln ... Is it Bonaparte ... Is it Stalin ... Mao is, etc ...
            4. citizen
              citizen 9 October 2021 00: 44
              -3
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              Bloody, in relation to themselves, this notorious "campaign" (and not the company), made the kulaks themselves. By our sabotage, in a critical period for the country, the formation of a food base for accelerated industrialization.

              Do not recall what the slogan of the Bolsheviks was during the revolution? Land for the peasants? What were these peasants doing against the law? Why did these bloody repressions affect family members of peasants, including minors? Do you think this is normal?

              Quote: ABC-schütze
              Those kulaks who ACTIVELY resisted the policy of collectivization and were convicted in 1933, sat in camps and colonies, and, by 1937, could not "have served" their sentences in any way. No need to study lyrics ...

              You read the text of the order
              1. All repressed kulaks, criminals and other anti-Soviet elements are divided into two categories:

              a) the first category includes all the most hostile of the above elements. They are subject to immediate arrest and, upon consideration of their cases in troikas - SHOT.

              b) the second category includes all the other less active, but still hostile elements. They are subject to arrest and imprisonment in camps for a term of 8 to 10 years, and the most malicious and socially dangerous of them, imprisonment for the same terms in prisons according to the definition of the troika.

              Quote: ABC-schütze
              And those who, simply, preventively "resettled" (to distant lands, or within the same district or region, depending on the category of social danger), without imprisonment, in 1937, PASSIVELY resist the Soviet power had the opportunity. Incl. and engaged in "tikharya", anti-Soviet "antikolkhoz" agitation. What did they do ...

              What a horror! Whom could they raid in the special resettlements? Who proved these crimes? Is death due for these crimes? How is your conscience?

              Quote: ABC-schütze
              For this, the notorious "dispossession" is not only "technical" confiscation of the people's Soviet power in favor of collective and state farms, kulak land, livestock and implements, but also consistent and difficult work with the public consciousness in the countryside. Most of the adult peasants by that time, it was good if they had mastered "literacy" at the level of "reading by syllables."

              "technical" confiscation, you would have survived such a technical confiscation, with eviction, and what happened to the children, I would not even wish you that.
              13. Patronage of children. The child population is in a particularly difficult situation.
              The above data on living conditions, nutrition, clothing literally adversely affect children and the mortality rate among them is huge, for example, at the K plant in the city of Perm, about 30% of all children died in two months August - September, in N. Lyalinsky district During the year 87 were born, and 347 died, in the Garinsky district 2 were born in 32 months, and 73 died, and all this mortality is overwhelmingly due to children.

              http://pmem.ru/index.php?id=60
              Dadad and completely destroyed the peasantry, so they could not feed their country.
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              It is quite enough to completely dispel the false propaganda myth that during the period of some "Stalinist repressions" of the 30s, "millions of innocent repressed" were in the GULA ...


              https://scepsis.net/library/misc/id-937_table4.html
              it says here that 25%. Every fourth person is innocently convicted. Is this normal for you?
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              but for the benefit of the PEOPLE

              Funny. Either the grateful people began to fight, after the dispossession of kulaks, starve by millions, and the people's Soviet power did not release them from the affected areas by troops. Are you ready to share your property? Do you understand what the law is? What laws did the "kulaks" violate? And their children?
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              And here there is a fair contrast, for example, with the "land cleansing" carried out by the "market people" in Great Britain, when some, the victorious OPERATORS (bourgeois Protestants) confiscated land and property IN THEIR USE, from other OPERATORS (defeated Catholics-aristocrats and Catholic monasteries), HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of peasants-tenants were expelled from these lands, depriving them of the possibility of existence. And having adopted the "law" on vagrancy, they FORCEDLY drove them as practically them as gratuitous labor for slave labor in their "manufactories". Including children 13 years old ... That's two ...

              And what is the contrast? And I know, in England, at the same time, as many people did not die as in the USSR. And by the way, do not you know how much you worked on collective farms?
              Again you are comparing the progressive regime of Stalin with the practices of half a millennium ago.
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              In the period of the SCALE construction of a new social formation, the forms, methods and institutions that implement justice are OBJECTIVELY CHANGED CONTINUOUSLY. It's quite normal. And the "troika" of the 30s, in relation to real or potentially anti-Soviet elements, is as NORMAL as the MASS, incl. preventive "revolutionary terror" with its tribunals, during the so-called. "Great French". Moreover, not only in relation to the two "first" estates, but also LITERALLY, in relation to ALL, including peasants, old people, women and children ...

              I do not think a violation of the constitution for the sake of some kind of company that looks like a normal guy most of all. This is again a question of conscience, value judgments. But this does not negate the fact that the troika is an illegal body under the laws in force at that time.

              This is probably my fault, I do not explain well
              Article 102. Justice in the USSR is administered by the Supreme Court
              USSR, Supreme Courts of the Union Republics, regional and regional
              courts, courts of autonomous republics and autonomous regions,
              district courts, special courts of the USSR, created by
              Resolution of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, people's courts.
              Article 103. The consideration of cases in all courts is carried out with
              the participation of lay judges, unless specifically
              prescribed by law.
              Article 110. Legal proceedings shall be conducted in the Union language or
              autonomous republic or autonomous region with provision for
              persons who do not speak this language, full familiarization with the materials
              cases through an interpreter, as well as the right to speak in court at home
              language.
              Article 111. The proceedings in all courts of the USSR are open,
              since the law does not provide for exceptions, with security
              defendant the right to defense.

              This is the constitution. Threes are not a trial. According to the current constitution, they could not administer justice. Troikas are unconstitutional and therefore illegal. All citizens convicted by troikas were convicted illegally.

              Quote: ABC-schütze
              Yes, even 1000 years have passed. The point is that the POLITICAL BRIBA, incl. in its EXTREMELY ACUTE FORMS, already from the time before the Nativity of Christ, and WILL be conducted (depending on the current situation) not only between the "warring clans", but also within ONE, including the "victorious" clan. And there are NO OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC social laws that would make this struggle, in its "extreme" forms "impossible" or "illogical" in nature and society ...

              This is wildness. In the USSR and the Russian Federation, since the time of Stalin, no one has been killing their political opponents.
            5. ABC-schütze
              ABC-schütze 10 October 2021 21: 48
              +1
              "1. And what is the contrast? I know, in England, at the same time, as many people did not die as in the USSR. And by the way, do not know how many people worked on collective farms?"
              2. Again you are comparing the progressive regime of Stalin with the practices of half a millennium ago. "
              ********************************************** ********************************************** *************
              The contrast is that in the USSR, after the Bolsheviks came to power, the FIRST sanatorium was opened in the royal residence in Crimea. Precisely for the peasants ... And it NEVER was empty ...

              The contrast is that on collective farms, adolescents and adults did not work for the interests of a private uncle, that is, not for the bourgeois with his PRIVATE profit. And on OWN, PEOPLE'S state ...

              How many "homeless" people and the peasants you expelled from the leased land "died" in England you cannot "know" by definition. For you have never conducted objective statistics on this subject ...

              But for YOUR so-called. According to the "law of vagrancy", you, not only your factories, but also your colonies in the New World and Australia, were inhabited by these "criminals" expelled from the land. By sending them, "free" labor force, there "to work" along with criminals - convicts ...

              And that is how you "built" your "economic well-being" for almost a half century. Or even two ...

              2. Not with "practices" of some "half a thousand years" ago, but with YOUR PRACTICE, which lies IN THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR "welfare". Including the current one ... You do not like this "comparison" much. And it worries me very little ...

              In any case, you cannot scientifically explain to me and the forum why and what my "comparison" is objectively incorrect ...

              And "arguments" like "it was a long time ago" will not work. Just as the theses will not be rolled out to us "then", something "was possible" there. Because "long ago" ...
            6. citizen
              citizen 12 October 2021 13: 14
              0
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              The contrast is that in the USSR, after the Bolsheviks came to power, the FIRST sanatorium was opened in the royal residence in Crimea. Precisely for the peasants ... And it NEVER was empty ...

              I think it very much warmed the peasants dying of hunger.
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              The contrast is that on collective farms, adolescents and adults did not work for the interests of a private uncle, that is, not for the bourgeois with his PRIVATE profit. And on OWN, PEOPLE'S state ...

              You know, the difference between a private uncle and an uncle from the nomenclature is not very big. At least as it was done in the USSR.
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              But for YOUR so-called. According to the "law of vagrancy", you, not only your factories, but also your colonies in the New World and Australia, were inhabited by these "criminals" expelled from the land. By sending them, "free" labor force, there "to work" along with criminals - convicts ...

              How everything looks like the USSR ...
              And the law on vagrancy and "criminals" Inhabiting the far north, free labor, and serfs without a passport.
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              2. Not with "practices" of some "half a thousand years" ago, but with YOUR PRACTICE, which lies IN THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR "welfare". Including the current one ... You do not like this "comparison" much. And it worries me very little ...

              I really like this comparison, your Stalin Srednivik tyrant, I agree with that.
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              In any case, you cannot scientifically explain to me and the forum why and what my "comparison" is objectively incorrect ...

              I don't mind. I agree that Stalinism is a medieval practice.
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              And "arguments" like "it was a long time ago" will not work. Just as the theses will not be rolled out to us "then", something "was possible" there. Because "long ago" ...

              Well, I don’t know, for me there’s a difference in XV
              century or XX. During this time, the attitude towards human life has changed a lot.
            7. ABC-schütze
              ABC-schütze 14 October 2021 13: 25
              0
              "I think it really warmed the peasants dying of hunger. ..."
              ************************************************** ********************
              Sanatoriums, incl. and for the peasants, by the Soviet power, EVERYWHERE and PERMANENTLY (from the Baltic to the Pacific Ocean and from the White Sea to the Black Sea) were not built as a means of "fighting hunger." And as institutions of health care and recreation for Soviet workers and their families ...

              And from hunger, during a crop failure or drought, that is, during natural disasters, people in any country "die". As for the kulak saboteurs and other enemies of Soviet power, then, as we have already found out, the definition of "peasants" does not apply to them ...

              "You know, the difference between a private uncle and an uncle from the nomenklatura is not very big. At least as it was implemented in the USSR."
              ************************************************** ********************
              Don't do the lyrics. If there are no intelligible arguments, you better shut up ...

              In the USSR, where the ownership of land, its subsoil, the means of production belonged to the peoples, the mentioned "difference" is fundamental. For EVERYTHING, produced by ALL Soviet people, went to the GENERAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE PEOPLE'S STATE, and not to a private pocket. And in the USSR it was "organized" exactly THIS ...

              I explain it on my fingers. In a country where the ownership of everything remembered belongs to the PEOPLE, already by DEFINITION, THERE CANNOT BE a subject who could "lobby" through the organs of POPULATION, the use of this property or income from its use, to the detriment of the POPULAR interests and in favor of his "private pocket "...

              "I really like this comparison, your Stalin Srednivik tyrant, I agree with that."
              ************************************************** ********************
              And I continue to like your impotent attempt to cover up with funny emotions, a chronic lack of intelligible conceptual arguments ...

              I will not answer you with an emotional reminder ...

              And your "bourgeois democracies", who prepared and unleashed TWO world wars, are MILITARY CRIMINALS who have committed crimes against HUMANITY WITHOUT A LONG TIME ...

              And you personally are the "advocate" of these criminal social systems ...

              "Well, I don't know, for me there is a difference in XV
              century or XX. During this time, the attitude towards human life has changed a lot.
              ************************************************** ********************
              Oh really?..

              Well, say thank you for that to JV Stalin and the Soviet state he headed.

              After all, THANKS TO HIS Victory, on a certain indistinct “changed” there is no idea why the attitude to a certain “life”, a certain “man”, in the Second World War unleashed by YOU, collapsed the WORLD'S BOND, CENTURIES of the colonial system created by YOU. And this did not happen "half a millennium" ago. And, in a historical context, "literally" the other day ", that is, about 60 years ago ...

              And, most importantly, not at all due to YOUR voluntary consent or "understanding" that suddenly illuminated YOU. YOU were simply FORCED to change YOUR former, very mercantile and bestial attitude towards someone else's life ...
        3. ABC-schütze
          ABC-schütze 10 October 2021 21: 59
          +1
          after a hundred "This is savagery. In the USSR and the Russian Federation, since Stalin's time, no one has been killing their political opponents."
          ******************************************************************************************************************
          Because it is precisely thanks to the "Stalinist legacy" - the VICTORY of the USSR in the Great Patriotic War, the security belt LEGALLY created by Stalin in Europe, along the perimeter of the Soviet borders, the nuclear status of the USSR as a great power, and the USSR's PLACE as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, after Stalin, the threat of a POTENTIALLY SUCCESSFUL collective military aggression, neither the USSR nor the Russian Federation exists.

          In contrast to how it was in the so-called. "Stalin's times", when the Soviet state was just being built, and YOU were a JACKAL from bourgeois "democracies", Nazis, Limitrophes and the sons of the Goddess Amateratsu, aggressively poked at it in all azimuths. Practically, from the FIRST DAY of the birth of the Soviet state ...
        4. citizen
          citizen 13 October 2021 22: 19
          -1
          Quote: ABC-schütze
          LEGALLY created by Stalin's security belt in Europe

          Are you laughing
          Quote: ABC-schütze
          the nuclear status of the USSR as a great power,

          Hand on heart, the USSR became a nuclear superpower in the mid-60s.
          Quote: ABC-schütze
          the threat of a POTENTIALLY SUCCESSFUL collective military aggression, neither the USSR nor the Russian Federation exists.

          Yes, yes, I agree, it has not existed since the mid-60s.
          Quote: ABC-schütze
          In contrast to how it was in the so-called. "Stalin's times", when the Soviet state was just being built, and YOU were a JACKAL from the bourgeois "democracies", the Nazis, the limitrophes and the sons of the Goddess Amateratsu, aggressively poked at it in all azimuths.

          You should have learned some history. The 50 thousandth Czechoslovak corps controlled half of the country. How do you feel about the activities of the ARA in Soviet Russia? How does this fit with your view of the world?

          Quote: ABC-schütze
          YOU ARE JACKALS from

          For some reason you are a necrophiliac who thinks that human sacrifice strengthens the state. But this is not the case in the XX century, or in the XV. Moreover, this idea of ​​yours is deeply fascist.
        5. ABC-schütze
          ABC-schütze 14 October 2021 13: 31
          0
          "In all honesty, the USSR became a nuclear superpower in the mid-60s."
          ************************************************** **********************
          So the United States, in good faith in the place you have mentioned, did not acquire such a status earlier ...

          And "until" the mid-60s, the "nuclear muzzle" put on by Moscow on Washington, in the form of a Soviet nuclear and hydrogen bomb, was quite enough.

          And the presence, though SINGLE, but REAL means of delivery of Soviet nuclear warheads to the overseas territory.

          By the way, the example of the current DPRK proves the validity of my thesis quite clearly. After all, jackals from "bourgeois democracies" only the possibility of UNPUNISHED aggression on "practical deeds" inspires ...
        6. citizen
          citizen 17 October 2021 00: 19
          0
          Quote: ABC-schütze
          So the United States, in good faith in the place you have mentioned, did not acquire such a status earlier ...

          No. Much earlier. Even during Stalin's life, the United States could destroy large cities of the USSR with impunity. And the real means from the USSR, capable of striking across the ocean, appeared in the 60s.
          The ratio of warheads varied by orders of magnitude, and there were no delivery vehicles across the ocean, or they could have been delivered rather theoretically.
          So how do you feel about the American ARA program?
        7. ABC-schütze
          ABC-schütze 18 October 2021 12: 47
          0
          "No. Much earlier. Even during Stalin's lifetime, the United States could destroy large cities of the USSR with impunity. And the USSR's real means, capable of striking across the ocean, appeared in the 60s.
          The ratio of warheads varied by orders of magnitude, and ... "************************************** *********************************
          Could not. This time. Moreover, even "large cities", not to mention inflicting a military defeat on the USSR as a state. These are two ...

          The aforementioned warheads (numbered in only "dozens", moreover, of very modest power) still had to be delivered GUARANTEED to targets on the territory of the USSR. Those. to have "certified" carriers (aircraft), moreover, with the PRELIMINARY redeployment of the latter to Great Britain and / or WESTERN Europe (which the USSR had ALL POSSIBILITIES to prevent) and PREPARED for combat work of this kind of crews. What is not done in "one month" ...

          And the USSR, at that time, did not need to strike "across the ocean" at all. It was enough to firmly "hold by the gills" of ALL US "allies" on the territory of Europe. And the USSR THEN REALLY had such opportunities.

          But the States, the possibility of waging a war in Europe against the USSR with the use of nuclear weapons, were NOT LOCATED. For, taking into account the capabilities of the Vloisk and AME of that time, they would have had, IN ANY OCCASION, on the territory of the vassals - "allies", "bomb" themselves and their beloved ... Not to mention the "allies" ...

          In short, stop doing armchair "theorizing" and idle chatter.

          Nuclear SUPERPower, and I, in relation to the Soviet Stalinist legacy, OBJECTIVELY and RELIABLY used THIS definition, and your tortured reference to a certain state "advantage in warheads" in the "lifetime" of V. I. Stalin. These are QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT concepts. Do you lack knowledge or simple ingenuity to understand this? ..

          "Advantage" in I-warheads, without the POSSIBILITY OF PROVIDING a complete MILITARY and POLITICAL defeat (destruction) of the enemy, moreover, WITHOUT UNACCEPTABLE DAMAGE for "self-loved ones" and vassals - "allies", does not make the state I-a "superpower".

          In short, the States ALWAYS WERE REAL "Wishlist" to destroy the USSR, but there was NEVER REAL OPPORTUNITIES to do this, moreover, UNPUNISHED ...
        8. ABC-schütze
          ABC-schütze 18 October 2021 12: 55
          0
          "So how do you feel about the American ARA program?"
          ************************************************** ************************
          Excuse me, I don't give a damn about ALL "American programs" without exception.

          But I am extremely negative about your attempts to "change the subject" ...

          And I would like to hear from you CLEAR, CONCEPTUALLY and IN THE LEGAL PLAN, reasoned JUSTIFICATIONS by your INITIAL, "public", anti-Soviet hzarakter the theses about the "illegal" nature of the punitive policy of the Soviet government in relation to its enemies and the Soviet mythical "contradiction" authority, bodies such as CCA.

          It was with these theses that you jumped out to the discussion thread of THIS article of the VO forum. And I won't let you "jump off" from it to discuss "other issues" ...
  2. Firelake
    Firelake 8 October 2021 18: 15
    +1
    My great-grandmother was a lady-in-waiting for the Empress and was German by nationality. It never occurred to anyone to put her in jail. Great-grandfather was in prison for a year and then was rehabilitated under Stalin. Sat for an accident at a film production plant (chief engineer). The culprit was found and released. No one was even imprisoned on the father's side, although there relatives organized a bond between the head of the city and the main church parish of the city: the city gave money at interest and the church confiscated them at services. Then they organized their own bank and continued to lend money to the population. From the materials of the case, I found out that they made the population of a fairly large town beggarly at that time. And nobody sat down. They just took the property. So don't talk about the bloody pinch of Stalin. They imprisoned mostly criminals who then sharply became political. And the banditry was the same.
    Great-grandfather even wrote a book, but of course no one published it during the corn-grower. The main thesis of the book:
    There were two types of investigators: those who made shoulder straps and who were involved in the case. It was scary to get to the first, but there were more of the second ...
  3. citizen
    citizen 9 October 2021 22: 01
    0
    I am happy for your ancestors, by the way, they were not supposed to be full-fledged citizens like the former.
    But according to the data provided by the NKVD of the USSR, 37 people were executed for 38-668, and about the same number were sentenced to various terms on sentences of extrajudicial (that is, not legal under the current legislation) triplets.
    http://istmat.info/node/14957
  4. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 10 October 2021 05: 55
    -1
    And what does Stalin have to do with it?
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. citizen
    citizen 10 October 2021 23: 08
    -1

    He is the organizer.
  8. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 10 October 2021 23: 24
    -1
    And where is Stalin's signature on the document, dear one?
  9. citizen
    citizen 11 October 2021 19: 59
    0
    Oh, dear one, this telegram is in all collections of documents on the "Great Terror". The position of the ostrich probably has its charms, but do not get carried away.
    Want with signatures?


  10. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 11 October 2021 20: 30
    -1
    As you can see, the initiative in both cases comes from the bottom, from the regions. So who is the organizer of the terror?
    Now it became clear that the impetus for the repressions of 1936-1938. gave the provincial "princelings". It was on their instructions that the provincial GPU began to search for enemies of the people and cook up "cases."

    There are already a lot of materials about this, including videos on YouTube by Yu. Zhukov, A. Fursov and others. Read, watch.
  11. citizen
    citizen 12 October 2021 12: 11
    0
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    As you can see, the initiative in both cases comes from the bottom, from the regions. So who is the organizer of the terror?

    No, I don’t see. I have no doubt about the authenticity of the telegram above. This is a direct instruction from Stalin.
    Does it bother you that your beloved Stalin signs limits on the execution of people? By the way, the last execution list is not from the regional authorities.
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Now it became clear that the impetus for the repressions of 1936-1938. gave the provincial "princelings". It was on their instructions that the provincial GPU began to search for enemies of the people and cook up "cases."

    There are already a lot of materials about this, including videos on YouTube by Yu. Zhukov, A. Fursov and others. Read, watch.

    This is an alternate history
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 12 October 2021 13: 37
    -1
    Quote: burger
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    As you can see, the initiative in both cases comes from the bottom, from the regions. So who is the organizer of the terror?

    No, I don’t see. I have no doubt about the authenticity of the telegram above. This is a direct instruction from Stalin.
    Does it bother you that your beloved Stalin signs limits on the execution of people? By the way, the last execution list is not from the regional authorities.
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Now it became clear that the impetus for the repressions of 1936-1938. gave the provincial "princelings". It was on their instructions that the provincial GPU began to search for enemies of the people and cook up "cases."

    There are already a lot of materials about this, including videos on YouTube by Yu. Zhukov, A. Fursov and others. Read, watch.

    This is an alternate history

    Tell me, you don't live in Russia, do you?
    And here's what's interesting. What is your education?
  14. citizen
    citizen 12 October 2021 15: 07
    0
    You are wrong. I live in St. Petersburg. Do you think all Russians should share your love for the Bloody Joseph? This is not true. A builder by education, but what?
  15. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 12 October 2021 15: 14
    -1
    Quote: burger
    You are wrong. I live in St. Petersburg. Do you think all Russians should share your love for the Bloody Joseph? This is not true. A builder by education, but what?

    What? For a Russian, you don't know much about Russian historians.
  16. citizen
    citizen 12 October 2021 16: 31
    0
    Your country is the criterion of a Russian. Most Russians do not know any historians at all. I gave you the opinions of Russian historians about your Zhukov and Fursov from the same opera.
  17. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 12 October 2021 17: 11
    -1
    Quote: burger
    Your country is the criterion of a Russian. Most Russians do not know any historians at all. I gave you the opinions of Russian historians about your Zhukov and Fursov from the same opera.

    Your historians are typical grant-eaters.
  18. citizen
    citizen 12 October 2021 18: 08
    0
    Well, this is understandable, if a historian says what you don't like, it means he is a "typical grant-eater", if you like it, it means "a recognized major researcher". What does this have to do with reality is the tenth thing.
  19. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 12 October 2021 21: 46
    -1
    Quote: burger
    Well, this is understandable, if a historian says what you don't like, it means he is a "typical grant-eater", if you like it, it means "a recognized major researcher". What does this have to do with reality is the tenth thing.

    Khlevnyuk. Read on Wikipedia:
    Corresponding member Royal Historical Society (UK), member of the editorial board of the magazine "Slavonica", ...
  20. citizen
    citizen 13 October 2021 13: 46
    0
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Corresponding Member of the Royal Historical Society (UK),

    It's funny, it's not 37 now. Moreover, he is a professor at Moscow State University.
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    of the editorial board of the magazine "Slavonica"

    So what? We should be grateful to him, as he is spreading Russian culture in the West.
    Do you have the same claims to the second?
  21. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 13 October 2021 15: 58
    -1
    Quote: burger
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Corresponding Member of the Royal Historical Society (UK),

    It's funny, it's not 37 now. Moreover, he is a professor at Moscow State University.
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    of the editorial board of the magazine "Slavonica"

    So what? We should be grateful to him, as he is spreading Russian culture in the West.
    Do you have the same claims to the second?

    He does not spread any Russian culture there. You read his "works". Gulag, repression, tyrant-Stalin.
    Nothing else in the West will be allowed to spread. And this gentleman cleverly orientated himself.
  22. citizen
    citizen 13 October 2021 16: 01
    0
    There was a gulag, there were repressions, Stalin was a tyrant, what's wrong? Is there anything in essence to object?
  23. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 13 October 2021 16: 26
    -1
    Quote: burger
    There was a gulag, there were repressions, Stalin was a tyrant, what's wrong? Is there anything in essence to object?

    There is. The main thing is not what but how to write. Although the first is also important. Solzhenitsyn wrote about the same. And when they checked his writings, it turned out that he was a liar. And once ... many people breathed his name. Just like you are now the name of Khlevnyuk.
    This Khlevnyuk with a neutral theme about Russian culture or Russian history was not allowed on the doorstep, whether he was twice a doctor of sciences and three times an academician. They need people who throw mud at "their" country. These creatures are of value to the West also because they are Russian! scientist. It is not we who speak and write. They are themselves ... We have nothing to do with it ...
  24. citizen
    citizen 13 October 2021 17: 45
    0
    What the hell is this? Who are they? What are they talking and writing about?
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    This Khlevnyuk with a neutral theme about Russian culture or Russian history was not allowed on the doorstep, whether he was twice a doctor of sciences and three times an academician. They need people who throw mud at "their" country.

    Conspiracy and paranoia. To whom should they? In general, what are these conspiracy theories based on?
  25. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 13 October 2021 20: 37
    -1
    Quote: burger
    What the hell is this? Who are they? What are they talking and writing about?
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    This Khlevnyuk with a neutral theme about Russian culture or Russian history was not allowed on the doorstep, whether he was twice a doctor of sciences and three times an academician. They need people who throw mud at "their" country.

    Conspiracy and paranoia. To whom should they? In general, what are these conspiracy theories based on?

    Why theory? Just a conspiracy. Or rather, an endless information war of dear "partners" against Russia. Who does not understand this is either the enemy or.
  26. citizen
    citizen 13 October 2021 20: 45
    0
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Who does not understand this is either the enemy or.

    And who understands this is paranoid. How is this information war expressed?
  27. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 13 October 2021 22: 37
    -1
    Quote: burger
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Who does not understand this is either the enemy or.

    And who understands this is paranoid. How is this information war expressed?

    oh ... how are you running
  28. citizen
    citizen 14 October 2021 00: 07
    0
    Yes Yes Yes. Paranoia can be a sign of schizophrenia. Health to you.
  29. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 14 October 2021 10: 30
    -1
    Quote: burger
    Yes Yes Yes. Paranoia can be a sign of schizophrenia. Health to you.

    I get it, I get it. Don't worry so much. Take your pills and drinks.
  30. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 14 October 2021 14: 50
    0
    To begin with, in the Churchill-Balfour policy aimed at a CONSCIOUS and MASSIVE, PROMOTIONAL LIE, in order to discredit the Soviet regime and the world's first Soviet state and its Bolshevik government ...
  31. citizen
    citizen 13 October 2021 17: 49
    0
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Solzhenitsyn wrote about the same.

    And what did Solzhenitsyn lie about?
  32. Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 13 October 2021 20: 32
    0
    Quote: burger
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Solzhenitsyn wrote about the same.

    And what did Solzhenitsyn lie about?

    He overestimated the scale of repression at times.
    He had 10 million exiled kulaks. Although there were less than 1,4 million of them. Moreover, 400 thousand of them fled along the way. I knew THREE families like that.
    You would ask Zhukov and Spitsin on this issue. There are also comrades. Go for it.
  33. citizen
    citizen 13 October 2021 20: 57
    0
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Although there were less than 1,4 million of them.

    Just?
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    You would ask Zhukov on this issue,

    It is difficult for me to take seriously a historian who claims that Stalin is a democrat. All the more unsubstantiated.
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Spitsina.

    When I will be 70 years old, this type of publicist is possible and will inspire confidence in me, but now I'm sorry, he's a Stalinist, it's hard to believe in his objectivity.
  34. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 14 October 2021 14: 43
    0
    It is more logical to ask, and what is "true" for him? bald "Vermont hermit", bazaar about "millions" never had a business
  35. citizen
    citizen 15 October 2021 11: 57
    0
    This is your problem. You are looking for historical data in the writings of a writer.
  36. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 18 October 2021 12: 59
    0
    I have no problem. This is your "writer" problem, with attempts to give a "documentary" (ie, based on "facts and figures") character to his fantasies, and other, verbose, quasi-"Tolstoy" chatter ...
  37. EvilLion
    EvilLion 18 October 2021 16: 38
    0
    I'll tell you a secret, but the GULAG still exists, it is only called the GUIN.

    The list of countries where there was repression, and in the open will be prohibitive, for example, Turkey after the unsuccessful coup of 2016. McCarthyism is also repression. Even banal executions of workers' demonstrations. But, apparently, the bourgeoisie can, but Stalin is not allowed. The most interesting thing is that there are no Stalinist repressions, as a historical fact, there is a fact of a short-term demolition of the roof of the NKVD, which, after the disclosure of Tukhachevsky's conspiracy, was given a lot of liberties. Denunciations later on a neighbor in a communal flat, on the boss, on anyone, were definitely not written by Stalin, he could not know about 99.9% of the people involved. It's just that in an ideologized country to the limit, in which a lot of people went through a civil war and were ready to wipe out opponents or supporters of the government left and right, the roof was blown off, and all the sluggish confrontation spilled out at once. At the same time, this did not affect the overwhelming majority of the population. Then in 38, when the Kremlin realized that some kind of game was going on and began to understand, they changed Yezhov to Beria, and dragged those who wrote denunciations, a bunch of people were simply rehabilitated. Hooked, of course, and innocent and simply stupid, like various writers, but as a result, the country was really cleared of dangerous, and often mentally inadequate people before the war.

    At the same time, the scale of what happened should not surprise at all, it is enough to look at the modern liberals, who, give them free rein, will immediately want to arrange the same. Like the population in relation to these liberals, and only a few decades of quiet life, with the people lacking the experience of violence, do not allow to arrange a new 37th.
  38. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 12 October 2021 14: 31
    0
    "I have no doubt" is not an argument ...

    Further, regarding some "embarrassment" ...

    JV Stalin, ACCORDING TO HIS POSITION and LEGAL AUTHORITY, approved the PROPOSALS of the LOWER LEGAL authority in relation to the ENEMIES of this authority. And not some "people".

    Does it bother you that you are annoyingly and systematically trying, "on autopilot", to identify these two concepts? ..
  39. citizen
    citizen 12 October 2021 20: 27
    0
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    "I have no doubt" is not an argument ...

    Further, regarding some "embarrassment" ...

    https://karagodin.org/?p=661
    Here's a signed one.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    JV Stalin, ACCORDING TO HIS POSITION and LEGAL AUTHORITY, approved the PROPOSALS of the LOWER LEGAL authority in relation to the ENEMIES of this authority. And not some "people".

    Come on, bomb, what is the position of Joseph Vissarionovich, what are the powers of this position, which bodies are subordinate to him.
    Who determines that these people are enemies?
  40. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 14 October 2021 14: 01
    0
    1. Let's bomb, what is the position of Joseph Vissarionovich, what are the powers of this position, which bodies are subordinate to him.
    2. Who determines that these people are enemies?
    *
    Having entered the "evening watch", try not to repeat yourself ... To this babble, you have already quite clearly answered ...

    2. "Determined" by LEGAL state and party bodies, LEGALLY created by LEGAL Soviet power ...

    1. As a statesman, IV Stalin, Stalin is also a member of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee (1917-1937) and the Central Executive Committee of the USSR (1922-1938). That is to say, the SUPREME body of the State power of the USSR.

    As a party leader, J. V. Stalin, member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) (1919-1952), General Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) (1925-1934), Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) (1934-1952), .. ...

    Just in case, according to the Constitution of the USSR of 1936, into which you are so willing to "selectively" point your finger, such a LEGAL structure as the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks is the guiding force of all working people, both public and STATE organizations. This, if my memory serves me correctly, Article 126. Learn to read documents "from beginning to end" ...

    So, with the legality of the powers of I.V. Stalin, everything is in perfect order.

    Well, and the fact that in some "bourgeois democracies" such a distribution of powers and "combination of positions" is "not recognized" by someone there, spit and forget ...

    For sovereign states that independently build their state structure, politics and the system of PUBLIC and STATE values, and the USSR is just such a state, criminal bourgeois "democracies" have never rolled for a certain "standard" and will not roll ..
  41. citizen
    citizen Yesterday, 18: 12
    0
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    Having entered the "evening watch", try not to repeat yourself ...

    Ay-yay-yay, This is gray-banal nonsense.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    2. "Determined" by LEGAL state and party bodies, LEGALLY created by LEGAL Soviet power ...

    I repeat, if you write "LEGAL" one hundred and five times in capital letters, this action does not become legal. In the time of the Middle Ages, when the monarchy was absolute, yes. The will of the monarch (legal authority) is the law, since his subjects, their lives, freedom and property belong to him. In the era of constitutions, power is limited by law, so that the decision of the authorities is legal, it is not enough for such a decision to be made by a legitimate authority, this decision must comply with the powers of this body prescribed in the laws and not contradict the laws in force, including the supreme law of the constitution. Only then is such a decision legal. Justice under the constitution for 36 years in the USSR can only be administered by a court. Anything else is illegal.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    1. As a statesman, IV Stalin, Stalin is also a member of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee (1917-1937) and the Central Executive Committee of the USSR (1922-1938). That is to say, the SUPREME body of the State power of the USSR.

    They bombed, so they bombed. The All-Russian Central Executive Committee is the parliament of the RSFSR (the decision in which was adopted by a majority of votes), Stalin was a deputy of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee in 17, the All-Russian Central Executive Committee elected the All-Russian Congress of Soviets since 17, which met ten times again. Stalin was no longer elected to the All-Russian Central Executive Committee.
    About the CEC in general lies, Stalin was not in the CEC.
    And in fact, with whom can a member of parliament sign execution lists and limits on the destruction of people?
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    As a party leader, J. V. Stalin, member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) (1919-1952), General Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) (1925-1934), Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) (1934-1952), .. ...
    Just in case, according to the Constitution of the USSR of 1936, into which you are so willing to "selectively" point your finger, such a LEGAL structure as the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks is the guiding force of all working people, both public and STATE organizations. This, if my memory serves me correctly, Article 126. Learn to read documents "from beginning to end" ...

    What, I had to post the entire constitution here? Where did you see here that the public organization All-Union Communist Party and its leader, or let the head of the chess circle, can approve or not approve the decisions of the USSR authorities? Where are Stalin's powers as Secretary of the Central Committee spelled out?
    Article 126. In accordance with the interests of the working people and in order to develop the organizational initiative and political activity of the popular masses, citizens of the USSR are guaranteed the right to form public organizations: trade unions, cooperative associations, youth organizations, sports and defense organizations, cultural, technical and scientific societies, and the most active and conscientious citizens from the ranks of the working class and other strata of the working people are united in the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks), which is the vanguard of the working people in their struggle to strengthen and develop the socialist system and represents the leading core of all working people's organizations, both public and state.

    And in your opinion, this article frees the head of the CPSU (b) from the obligation to obey the constitution?
    And in general it is not clear where you saw here the subordination of the authorities to the party leader.
    So, with the legitimacy of Stalin's powers, everything is not in order, they simply do not exist, they are not spelled out anywhere.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    Well, and the fact that in some "bourgeois democracies" such a distribution of powers and "combination of positions" is "not recognized" by someone there, spit and forget ...
    For sovereign states that independently build their state structure, politics and the system of PUBLIC and STATE values, and the USSR is just such a state, criminal bourgeois "democracies" have never rolled for a certain "standard" and will not roll ..

    Yes Yes. I have always been amazed at the resemblance between revolutionaries and criminals. This is understandable, of course, and both are illegal. But the communists have been in power for twenty years, all the laws have been adopted by them and still live "according to the concepts" according to which the leader, the interests of the party, the world revolution, etc. above the law, and they do not care about the laws they wrote.
  42. EvilLion
    EvilLion 18 October 2021 08: 14
    0
    And now the question is, can you explain how this document relates and what it has? I know, but why you are swinging it, I do not understand.
  43. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 10 October 2021 23: 02
    +2
    Stop lying ...

    Special meetings were a LEGAL body of justice in a SPECIAL period. Regarding POLITICALLY PUBLIC HAZARDOUS items ...

    Namely, in essence and in essence legal. For, they are OPEN and OFFICIAL, created by the LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL STATE power - the CEC, and not by some "invaders-invaders" and not "self-appointed". And in their composition were and made OFFICIAL, DOCUMENTED DECISIONS REGARDING POLITICALLY PUBLIC DANGEROUS ELEMENTS, representatives of LEGAL authority.

    This is EXACTLY an ADMINISTRATIVE (and not a judicial) body for considering CRIMINAL cases on charges of acts threatening the Soviet system (counterrevolutionary activities, anti-Soviet propaganda and agitation, sabotage, desertion in wartime, treason, etc.).

    But the assumption of the POSSIBILITY of procedural LEGAL restrictions in relation to SOCIALLY DANGEROUS POLITICAL ELEMENTS (in particular, the POSSIBILITY of considering the case in the absence of lawyers and the accused) does not make the work of the CCO itself, EXACTLY as an institution, "illegal".

    We can only talk about the OBJECTIVITY and JUSTIFICATION OF SPECIFIC DECISIONS of the CCA, and not about their "legality" ...

    TOTAL for the entire existence of the CCA, 443 people were convicted. 521 people were sentenced to the VMN, 10 people were sentenced to imprisonment. The CCO received the right to impose death sentences ONLY in NOVEMBER 101. Those. DURING THE WAR

    And Pavlov was sentenced to death by the Supreme Collegium of the USSR Military COURT. And to all other "Tukhachev - uborevichs", those were brought out not by "troikas" and not by the CCO, but by the Special JUDICIAL presence of the USSR Supreme Court. Those. were carried out EXACTLY in the COURT ...
  44. citizen
    citizen 11 October 2021 20: 42
    0
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    Special meetings were a LEGAL body of justice in a SPECIAL period. Regarding POLITICALLY PUBLIC HAZARDOUS items ...

    Wonderful. It's just not clear why you wrote this sheet. Troikas are not a special meeting and had nothing to do with the CEC. Created by order of the NKVD, if that by an executive authority.
    To condemn the extrajudicial mass repressions of the Stalinist period, to recognize the NKVD-NKVD troikas, OGPU collegiums and “special meetings” of the NKVD-MGB-Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR as anti-constitutional in the 30s – 40s and early 50s, and to cancel their extrajudicial decisions, not canceled at the time of publication of this Decree
    - Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of January 16, 1989

    For one thing about the CEC
    Article 32. The legislative power of the USSR is exercised exclusively by the Supreme Soviet of the USSR


    Again
    111 Article. Proceedings in all courts of the USSR open,
    since the law no exceptionsprovided with
    the accused the right to defense.

    PS Doesn't the forum rules prohibit writing Caps Lock?
  45. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 12 October 2021 14: 22
    0
    "Great. It's just not clear why you wrote this sheet."
    *
    And in order to clearly show how your chaotic lies are "covered up" with electoral quotes ...

    "Troikas are not a special meeting and had nothing to do with the CEC."
    *
    What I, in fact, and PROVENLY showed ...

    Just in case, the aforementioned "troikas" of the NKVD existed for ONLY ONE YEAR. From June 1937 to November 1938, after which they were abolished. For this, they could not sentence any "hundreds of thousands" to VMN, by definition ...

    "For one thing about the Central Executive Committee", and further - allegedly "argument" - "Article 32. The legislative power of the USSR is exercised exclusively by the Supreme Soviet of the USSR"
    *
    It means, “where” is a certain CEC? ..

    Yes, despite the fact that CCOs were initially LEGALLY created and LEGALLY acted, precisely by the LEGAL decision of the LEGAL CEC. And nothing else ...

    For, according to the Constitution of the USSR (the Supreme Law of the country) of 1924 (and the "Stalinist" Constitution of the USSR was adopted only in the fall of 1936):

    "17. The Central Executive Committee of the USSR PUBLISHES CODES, DECREETS, decrees and orders, unites the work on the LEGISLATION and administration of the USSR and determines the scope of activities of the Presidium of the Central Executive Committee and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR.

    18. All decrees and decrees defining the general norms of political and economic life in the USSR, as well as making fundamental changes in the existing practice of state bodies of the USSR, must necessarily go back to the consideration and approval of the Central Executive Committee of the USSR.

    19. All decrees, decisions and orders issued by the Central Executive Committee are binding on the entire territory of the USSR.

    20. The Central Executive Committee of the USSR HAS THE RIGHT TO SUSPEND or CANCEL the decrees, decisions and orders of the Presidium of the Central Executive Committee of the USSR, as well as the Congresses of Soviets and Central Executive Committees of the Union republics and other authorities on the territory of the USSR (including judicial authorities , by the way. approx. MY). "

    For this, the Central Executive Committee of the USSR, until the AUTUMN 1936, according to the Constitution of the USSR, was endowed with LEGISLATIVE and EXECUTIVE and JUDICIAL powers.

    And this is your "reference" cheating from 1989, there is, as they say, a rapid "flight past the box office":

    "To condemn the extrajudicial mass repressions of the Stalinist period, to recognize the NKVD-UNKVD troikas, the OGPU collegiums and the" SPECIAL CONFERENCES "of the NKVD-MGB-MVD of the USSR in the 30-40s and early 50s as anti-constitutional, and to cancel the decisions made by them not canceled by the time this Decree was issued
    - Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of January 16, 1989 "

    Firstly, because according to your own, practiced "scheme of accusation" of Stalin's policy, the aforementioned Supreme Soviet of the USSR WAS NOT a JUDICIAL power, and HAS NOT HAS NO JURISDICTION to “condemn” LEGAL rights and powers in legal terms. And he could only, according to Khrushchev's example, pop into the demand of the political conjuncture.

    Secondly, because even in this opportunistic, political chatter, he spawned textured "shoals". For the aforementioned "troikas" acted for ONLY ONE YEAR.

    And then ALL the cases and questions under their control were transferred to the CCO under the (NKVD), which no longer had the right to impose death sentences. With the exception of 1941 - 1945, that is, the period of martial law in the Country ...

    Therefore, the "loose" coverage of the cited quotation period of some "30s-40s" - a shot "into the milk." Before AUTUMN 1936, i.e. until the second half of the 30s, CCOs WERE LEGAL. And AFTER, the right to issue the PMN in PEACE TIME, they were LEGALLY DEPRECATED.

    As for the members of the "troikas", after 1938, most of them HAVE ALREADY BEEN the Soviet power FOR A LONG TIME and OFFICIALLY, LEGALLY convicted of EXCESSION OF POWERS and, for the most part, SHOT.

    So, the subsequent "services" of all kinds of "accusers" of JV Stalin, Soviet power and its policies, from the "Gorbachev-Solzhenitsyn" zoo are here unnecessarily ...
  46. citizen
    citizen 13 October 2021 15: 33
    0
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    And in order to clearly show how your chaotic lies are "covered up" with electoral quotes ...

    How can you not answer, how could I lie about a special meeting, if I have never mentioned them?
    Just think.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    What I, in fact, and PROVENLY showed ...

    But why?
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    Just in case, the aforementioned "troikas" of the NKVD existed for ONLY ONE YEAR. From June 1937 to November 1938, after which they were abolished. For this, they could not sentence any "hundreds of thousands" to VMN, by definition ...

    Can you prove it?
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    Yes, despite the fact that CCOs were initially LEGALLY created and LEGALLY acted, precisely by the LEGAL decision of the LEGAL CEC. And nothing else ...

    With 36 contrary to the current constitution, it means illegal.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    For, according to the Constitution of the USSR (the Supreme Law of the country) of 1924 (and the "Stalinist" Constitution of the USSR was adopted only in the fall of 1936):

    Well, with the 36 new constitution, what's the point of referring to the inoperative one?

    Quote: ABC-schütze
    Firstly, because according to your own, practiced "scheme of accusation" of Stalin's policy, the aforementioned Supreme Soviet of the USSR WAS NOT a JUDICIAL power, and HAS NOT HAS NO JURISDICTION to “condemn” LEGAL rights and powers in legal terms. And he could only, according to Khrushchev's example, pop into the demand of the political conjuncture.

    So no one condemned specific citizens, they condemn the practice of extrajudicial killings. Here you condemn the Holocaust? It is the same. Plus the cancellation of the anti-constitutional decisions of these extrajudicial bodies. What does the court have to do with it?
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    Secondly, because even in this opportunistic, political chatter, he spawned textured "shoals". For the aforementioned "troikas" acted for ONLY ONE YEAR.

    So what?
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    As for the members of the "troikas", after 1938, most of them HAVE ALREADY BEEN the Soviet power FOR A LONG TIME and OFFICIALLY, LEGALLY convicted of EXCESSION OF POWERS and, for the most part, SHOT.

    So do you agree that the troikas have illegally condemned more than a million people? Not expected.
  47. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 14 October 2021 14: 26
    0
    "C 36 is contrary to the current constitution, which means it is illegal. C 36 is contrary to the current constitution, which means it is illegal. ..."
    ************************************************* ********************************* Another "legal" nonsense was voiced ...

    IT IS NECESSARY to refer to OSS, JUST BECAUSE you, talking about a certain "illegality" of some "Stalinist" repressions, "prudently" DO NOT REMEMBER ABOUT THEM ...

    Precisely because these were LEGAL, completely CONSTITUTIONAL bodies, LEGALLY created by the LEGAL Soviet government, for the LEGAL struggle against the enemies of the Soviet government and the Soviet people.

    And the overwhelming majority of the enemies of the Soviet power and the Soviet people were LEGALLY identified and destroyed by THEY, and not the "troikas" that existed for ONLY ONE YEAR, I remind you, just in case ...

    As for the "legal" babble about the "contradiction" of the current Constitution, this is your DIRECT LIE.

    For the LEGAL AUTHORITY to determine what "contradicts" the USSR Constitution adopted in 1936, and what does not, were only with the NEW bodies of state power of the USSR, and no one else. And THEM had EXCLUSIVE POWERS to terminate the powers of the PREVIOUSLY LEGALLY created bodies of state power, to redistribute these powers among the new state structures, or, in general, to liquidate these bodies.

    But if, NEW, LEGAL BODIES, LEGAL state
    the authorities of the USSR, formed according to the new Constitution of 1936, DIDN'T DO this (and they DIDN'T DO it), then in the EXACTLY LEGAL plan, this means ONLY ONE, - CCA, LEGALLY Established PREVIOUSLY, in accordance with the Constitution of 1924, new bodies of state power of the USSR, "contradicting" the new Constitution of 1936, WERE NOT CONSIDERED.

    And, it means that the CCA, and after 1936, continued their activities against the enemies of the Soviet state, absolutely LEGALLY. And the anti-Stalinist, anti-Soviet "accusatory" booth, arranged by the "Yakovlev-Gorbachevs" in 1989, with the distribution of all kinds of "assessments" and "condemnations", in the LEGAL plan, is FULL ZERO. And in the scientific - historical, cognitive, objective - in general, "the value is negative."

    In short, nothing more than opportunistic, NOT JUSTIFIED BY ANY LEGAL arguments against the Soviet regime and the Soviet SYSTEM, in general, a propaganda rattle ...
  48. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 12 October 2021 14: 37
    0
    "PS Doesn't the forum rules prohibit writing Caps Lock?"
    **********************************************************************************
    If the accentuation of the conceptual wretchedness of your "arguments" in this way, you are especially annoyed, complain to the administration of the forum.

    She will warn me.

    I'll fix it ...
  49. citizen
    citizen 13 October 2021 15: 48
    0
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    If the accentuation of the conceptual wretchedness of your "arguments" in this way, you are especially annoyed, complain to the administration of the forum.

    Usually, large letters mean a shout, a conversation in a raised voice.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    wretchedness of your "arguments"

    You also cheat
    As there
    Jupiter, you are angry - then you are wrong
  50. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 14 October 2021 14: 34
    0
    It depends ...

    Usually, in CAPITAL letters, in the commentary read by the ALL FORUM, I TACTICALLY show a SPECIFIC counterpart (in this case, YOU), on his logical, conceptual flaws. In other words, the inability to think and evaluate the problem and the topic systematically. Moreover, without any "cry" and "emotions" ...

    By the way ... They say that Jesus Christ, angrily throwing tables at the money changers in the pagan courtyard of the Jerusalem Temple, was guided exclusively by emotions ...

    I am not religious. But EXAMPLE, "eloquent" and, even instructive, so as not to resort to your gray-banal, sore mouth - "angry" and "cheat" ...
  51. citizen
    citizen 15 October 2021 10: 45
    0
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    Usually, in CAPITAL letters, in the commentary read by the ALL FORUM, I TACTICALLY show a SPECIFIC counterpart (in this case, YOU), on his logical, conceptual flaws.

    This is so only in your fantasies. For normal users, large letters mean scream.
    Google.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    In other words, the inability to think and evaluate the problem and the topic in a systematic way. Moreover, without any "cry" and "emotions" ...

    Yes Yes Yes. To write 125 times in capital letters "legally" without any argumentation or referring for some unknown reason to special meetings is right at the top of systems thinking. But for some reason it looks more like a hysteria. Especially when combined with capital letters.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    By the way ... They say that Jesus Christ, angrily throwing tables at the money changers in the pagan courtyard of the Jerusalem Temple, was guided exclusively by emotions ...

    Hmm ... do you identify yourself with Christ? It's funny, they just crucified about "without any" shouting "and" emotions "" and for some reason immediately insert an example of the emotionality of Christ. This is probably an example of systems thinking. In your view.
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    I am not religious. But EXAMPLE, "eloquent" and, even instructive, so as not to resort to your gray-banal, sore mouth - "angry" and "cheat" ...

    Again, only in your head there is some kind of connection between Jesus, the temple and our discussion. Systemic thinking zhezh. But I agree, your cheating is gray-banal.
  52. ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 15 October 2021 14: 48
    0
    "This is only in your fantasies. For normal users, capital letters mean scream.
    Google it. "
    *
    1. "Normal" and "abnormal" users are determined by the forum administrators. And without any "googling". Don't usurp their authority ...

    2. Normal users determine the SENSE content of phrases and arguments "vis-a-vis", not at all by the "size of letters".
    Take an example from them. And you will have time to "google" later ...

    "1. Hmm ... Do you identify yourself with Christ? It's funny, just crucified about" without any "cry" and "emotions" "and for some reason immediately insert an example of the emotionality of Christ. 2. This is probably an example of systemic thinking. Your idea. "
    **********************************************************************************
    1. Just then, so that it would be clear to you that I do not identify. Sorry, but I overestimated the level of your ingenuity. Although, your, possible, to a yawn, stereotyped, boring and well-worn, "question", I was quite overlooked even then ...

    But if we are already "about religion", then here too, not with a certain Christ, but with Christ ...

    2. And here, you are absolutely right. Although I, as a matter of fact, on the forum only on my own behalf, I present and argue my own ideas ...

    "1. Yes, yes, yes. 125 times to write in capital letters" legitimately "without any argumentation 2. ... or referring to it is not clear why to special meetings this is the height of systems thinking."
    *
    1. In a timid hope, to hear (or see ...) your argumentation, YOUR PROMOTION about some "illegality" of the activities of the repressive bodies of the Soviet power, incl. in the so-called The "Stalin period" created by her to fight the enemies of Soviet power ...

    2. What would you explain to the VO forum, why EXACTLY about THEM, you initially did not say a word. After all, IT IS THEY, and not the "troikas" for YEARS, were the "main tools" in the fight against the enemies of the Soviet regime and the state. And here, too, inept and illiterate, in legal terms, referring to the "new" Soviet Constitution of 1936, you tried to discredit them by hanging EXACTLY on THEM. - previously created CCA, tag "contrary" to the Constitution. And you, alas, LIED ...

    The new constitutional bodies of the Soviet state power, nothing "contrary" to the Constitution in the presence and activities of the CCA, in the historical period under discussion did not see ...
  53. EvilLion
    EvilLion 18 October 2021 08: 15
    0
    Troika is a perfectly legitimate judicial body, do not write nonsense.
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 8 October 2021 22: 48
    +1
    You, dear one, did not confuse the rostrum ... here about military construction ... nothing personal
  • Proxima
    Proxima 6 October 2021 08: 13
    +30
    "After all, you can't blame everything on Stalin? And Pavlov was rehabilitated, with whom does not happen... "- from the text - is anyone going to rehabilitate Stalin at all ?! After all, after Khrushchev's famous speech at the 20th Congress, to this day there was no denial at the state level that all these, to put it mildly, Nikita's fantasies are a libel 90 percent woven from lies. But no, things are still there! request
    1. citizen
      citizen 6 October 2021 17: 40
      -1
      Quote: Proxima
      Nikita's fantasies are 90 percent libel.

      Can you give an example of a lie?
      1. Pereira
        Pereira 6 October 2021 22: 05
        +1
        61 lies of Nikita Khrushchev. Slander against Stalin
        ... Search the internet.
        1. citizen
          citizen 6 October 2021 23: 31
          -1
          A specialist in medieval English literature, Professor Grover Ferr, let's say, is a kind of person.
          Stalin shared Lenin's views on representative democracy and sought to root its principles in the state structure of the USSR.
          Stalin was at the head of the struggle for the democratization of Soviet society, a struggle that found itself at the very core of the political processes taking place in the USSR in the 1930s-1950s. Their essence boiled down to the fact that the role of the Communist Party in governing the state would be narrowed down to "normal" (as in other countries) limits, and the nomination of government officials would take place not according to party lists, but on the basis of democratic procedures.

          I'm not ready to refute his entire book, can you give a specific example?
      2. DenVB
        DenVB 7 October 2021 10: 06
        +3
        Quote: burger
        Can you give an example of a lie?

        Some examples can be given.
        And I must say that Stalin planned the operation on a globe. (Animation in the hall.) Yes, comrades, he will take the globe and show the front line on it.

        Although about 99% lies - this is, of course, an exaggeration. Khrushchev said a lot of truth in that report. I also lied pretty well.
      3. user
        user 9 October 2021 10: 08
        0
        Can you give an example of a lie?


        Yes, the most important thing is that Stalin personally carried out the repressions of 1937-1940. Didn't Nikita Sergeevich and others like them prepare execution lists? On one of these lists submitted personally by Khrushev, there really is Stalin's resolution - "Calm down."
        1. citizen
          citizen 9 October 2021 21: 49
          0
          Quote: user
          Yes, the most important thing is that Stalin personally carried out the repressions of 1937-1940.

          There are a bunch of documents with his signature, including execution lists and instructions for increasing the "limits" !!!! for VMN and long terms.
          Quote: user
          Didn't Nikita Sergeevich and others like them prepare execution lists? On one of these lists submitted personally by Khrushev, there really is Stalin's resolution - "Calm down."

          But there is no such document, but undoubtedly the entire party leadership of the USSR of that period was smeared in this bloody affair.
          1. Sergey-1950
            Sergey-1950 10 October 2021 06: 04
            -1
            Quote: burger
            Quote: user
            Didn't Nikita Sergeevich and others like them prepare execution lists? On one of these lists submitted personally by Khrushev, there really is Stalin's resolution - "Calm down."

            But there is no such document, but undoubtedly the entire party leadership of the USSR of that period was smeared in this bloody affair.

            There is such a document. There is a telegram from Khrushchev to Stalin with a complaint that he, Stalin, does not allow everyone to be shot, according to the lists submitted from Ukraine. That is, from Khrushchev, since he was at that time the First Secretary of the Communist Party of Ukraine. Stalin crossed out almost 80-90% of the list.
            On this telegram, Stalin wrote "Calm down."
            1. citizen
              citizen 10 October 2021 22: 50
              0
              Quote: Sergey-1950
              There is such a document. There is a telegram from Khrushchev to Stalin with a complaint that he, Stalin, does not allow everyone to be shot, according to the lists submitted from Ukraine.

              Give me a link.
              Quote: Sergey-1950
              That is, from Khrushchev, since he was at that time the First Secretary of the Communist Party of Ukraine. Stalin crossed out almost 80-90% of the list.

              It seems not a legend. Is there a link?
              1. Sergey-1950
                Sergey-1950 10 October 2021 23: 28
                -1
                These facts have been introduced into scientific circulation for 20 years already. These facts are recorded in the works of Yu. Zhukov, E. Prudnikova, N. Starikov
                1. citizen
                  citizen 11 October 2021 00: 41
                  -1
                  Are there any normal historians? So can you give a link to the document?
                2. Sergey-1950
                  Sergey-1950 11 October 2021 13: 29
                  0
                  Quote: burger
                  Are there any normal historians? So can you give a link to the document?

                  Those. Zhukov and E. Prudnikova are not historians for you?
                3. citizen
                  citizen 11 October 2021 20: 52
                  0
                  Zhukov, of course, is a historian, but some kind of peculiar one. His idea that Stalin was going to democratize and remove the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) from power, but the evil party bosses got scared and forced him to arrange a big terror, in my opinion, is too daring.
                  And yes E. Prudnikova is not a historian, but a publicist.
                  You can just give a link, Khrushchev is smeared like the entire party elite, no one argues with this, but I have not seen such a document. Many refer to it, but no one has indicated the source.
                4. Sergey-1950
                  Sergey-1950 11 October 2021 21: 13
                  -1
                  Quote: burger
                  Zhukov, of course, is a historian, but some kind of peculiar one. His idea that Stalin was going to democratize and remove the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) from power, but the evil party bosses got scared and forced him to arrange a big terror, in my opinion, is too daring.
                  And yes E. Prudnikova is not a historian, but a publicist.
                  You can just give a link, Khrushchev is smeared like the entire party elite, no one argues with this, but I have not seen such a document. Many refer to it, but no one has indicated the source.

                  I saw the telegram itself, but a long time ago. Now I can't even remember where. I see no reason to double-check the respected researchers.
                  I don't know what you find so peculiar in Yu. Zhukov ...
                  He is universally recognized as the largest researcher of the issue of the so-called. Stalinist repression.
                  I myself once believed that the repressions were organized by Stalin. And unlike you, he could confirm this with facts. But then it turned out that many facts were falsified on the instructions of Nikita, and most importantly, it was necessary to see the general picture, and not examine one suitable fragment of the picture through a microscope. I understand you very well. I wish you to describe the path that I have passed.

                  P.S. Prudnikov is a historian. Spitsin is a historian, the same view, A. Fursov is a historian, the same.
                5. citizen
                  citizen 12 October 2021 00: 57
                  -1
                  Quote: Sergey-1950
                  He is universally recognized as the largest researcher of the issue of the so-called. Stalinist repression.

                  No, not all
                  Fantastic pictures of terror as a result of the confrontation between Stalin, the reformer, who sought to give the country democracy, and the self-serving orthodox party bureaucrats who oppressed the leader in every possible way, are based on numerous mistakes, super-arbitrary treatment of sources, as well as ignoring real facts that do not fit into the fictitious picture

                  Doctor of Historical Sciences Khlevnyuk O. V.
                  Since the main pathos of almost all the historical works of Yuri Zhukov, published by him in the last 15-17 years, is almost exclusively aimed at the moral and political rehabilitation of Stalin, what he told the LG correspondent is not surprising. True, now he is trying to justify the dictator, making the Jews scapegoats for his crimes

                  Doctor of Historical Sciences G. V. Kostyrchenko
                  Quote: Sergey-1950
                  I understand you very well. I wish you to describe the path that I have passed.

                  I will never justify a bloody tyrant. Too many lives cost his paranoia and the main thing is not clear why.
                  Quote: Sergey-1950
                  But then it turned out that many facts were falsified on the instructions of Nikita, and most importantly, it was necessary to see the general picture, and not examine one suitable fragment of the picture through a microscope.

                  Look at least through a microscope, at least through a telescope, but the country under the leadership of Stalin lost almost seven hundred thousand of its citizens killed and about the same number of convicts (many did not survive the imprisonment) in peacetime.
                  Prudnikova and Spitsin do not have a specialized education and scientific title. They are just Stalinists. I don't know Fursov
                6. Sergey-1950
                  Sergey-1950 12 October 2021 01: 29
                  -1
                  Quote: burger
                  Quote: Sergey-1950
                  He is universally recognized as the largest researcher of the issue of the so-called. Stalinist repression.

                  No, not all


                  Quote: burger
                  I will never justify a bloody tyrant. ... the country under the leadership of Stalin lost almost seven hundred thousand of its citizens killed and about the same number of convicts (many did not survive the imprisonment) in peacetime.


                  Quote: burger
                  Prudnikova and Spitsin do not have a specialized education and scientific title. They are just Stalinists. I don't know Fursov
  • user
    user 23 October 2021 09: 27
    0
    But there is no such document.


    Yes, there is, I myself saw the posted execution lists (probably a screenshot) on the Internet with the resolution "Calm down".
    You can grind about fake pictures on another forum.
    1. citizen
      citizen 23 October 2021 11: 36
      0
      Quote: user
      Yes, there is, I myself saw the posted execution lists (probably a screenshot) on the Internet with the resolution "Calm down".

      Link please?
      Quote: user
      You can grind about fake pictures on another forum.

      You can at least wipe yourself off on other forums, but this in no way negates the fact that there were massive repressions and Stalin was their organizer.
  • Artem76
    Artem76 6 October 2021 17: 54
    +5
    The right questions. I only doubt that we will see the rehabilitation of Stalin, as well as the trial or tribunal over Gorbachev, Yeltsin and all their shobla ..
  • citizen
    citizen 7 October 2021 18: 21
    -1
    Quote: Proxima
    Is anyone going to rehabilitate Stalin at all ?!

    By the way, was Stalin condemned by the court to rehabilitate him?
  • iva12936
    iva12936 6 October 2021 10: 44
    +5
    And with some skill that some interested citizens show, they can destroy the Strategic Missile Forces, hiding behind beautiful slogans, they already passed in 90. And still too. A good plant was 487 TsARZ (Bashkiria), who served in the Strategic Missile Forces in the course, made a joint-stock company or LLC, under Stouretkin, now they are practically bankrupt. Specialists, equipment - the basis of the garrison was. And now where the worker can go - north, Ufa (40 km) - you can't hit it. In general, the plant stood in 1960, and now it's sad, as if the MAZs in the troops all died !!!
  • Catfish
    Catfish 6 October 2021 11: 38
    +15
    When the Union collapsed, there was no intervention either.
    1. Eug
      Eug 6 October 2021 13: 23
      +11
      That's right, there were Strategic Missile Forces, but the collapse of the Union was not prevented. The cadres (leading) decided everything ...
    2. Victor Tsenin
      Victor Tsenin 6 October 2021 17: 34
      0
      There was a counter-revolution, if you call a spade a spade.
  • Bar1
    Bar1 6 October 2021 13: 08
    +4
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    As long as Russia has the Strategic Missile Forces, there will be no intervention.


    you forget one thing. Which finger will press that button? The enemy's finger will not press this button.
  • 210ox
    210ox 6 October 2021 14: 06
    +11
    The USSR had many more nuclear weapons. Did it help? No weapon will save a country headed by compromisers, characters, dependent on foreignism and other rascals.
  • ism_ek
    ism_ek 6 October 2021 16: 45
    +4
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    As long as Russia has the Strategic Missile Forces, there will be no intervention.

    We have the 42nd Strategic Missile Forces Division in the region. During the year, four people died under mysterious circumstances. Two junior officers and two conscripts. Two cases of soldiers being detained with drugs ... And not a single one was punished.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 7 October 2021 13: 49
    +3
    That's right ...

    I read the subsequent emotional "comments" on your post, the impression - well-known from Russian classics, chaotic, "mixing French with Nizhny Novgorod." Moreover, "with half a turn" ...

    It is written - "there will be no INTERVENTION", it is not known with what fright, they immediately point a finger at the "collapse of the Union", as if the Strategic Missile Forces were created to prevent betrayal in the country's top leadership ...

    And from betrayal, in general, not a single social "system" in the world is guaranteed or insured.

    And "democracy" as well. Including the "overseas" ...

    "Stool-Rogozin" sounds beautiful, but they are not the ones who determine the country's defense policy.

    And if they fail, they are kicked in the ass by "parallel movement". the need to resort to sending to the felling, as it was OBJECTIVELY necessary in the USSR, during the period of collectivization, industrialization and preparation for war with the Third Reich, is now OBJECTIVELY NO ...

    And, in Russia, specifically, ...

    And the criminally separatist rebellion in the North Caucasus was ...

    And there was a default in 1998, which practically brought the country under external control for ten years, in terms of foreign influence on budget expenditures, was ...

    And the "American inspections" along the perimeter of the Votkinsk plant, video cameras poking around and along the position areas (routes) of the PGRK "rolled out" were ...

    And the "reduction" of the Armed Forces under the guise of "structural reform" was ...

    And ritual dances in the media on the mythical "coffin" of the Soviet period of Russian history (still, by the way, "by inertia", in some places continuing), with a permanent howl about some "innocent victims" and "denunciations of" notorious "Stalinism" and the mockery of the "unnecessary" and "overly bloated" army was ...

    And the TOTAL underfunding of "everything and everyone", with all the accompanying "reformist" shobla "Chubais" and all other "German" poodles was ...

    But ...

    From 2008 to the current year (that is, for 13 years) with complete economic and foreign policy "ruins":

    They paid off their debts and restored full sovereignty ...

    The collapse and disintegration of the country was stopped ..

    The Armed Forces have radically updated and restored their combat effectiveness and the required level of combat readiness ...

    The post-Soviet, global propaganda EURO trick about a certain "equal responsibility" of Nazi Germany and the "Stalinist" USSR for the outbreak of World War II was not led ...

    Its nuclear power industry CONTINUES TO DEVELOP DYNAMIC ...

    Nord Stream 2 was completed and launched. And thus, in the field of energy supply, "Europe" was "put under themselves" for another 30 years ...

    "Inoagents" of all matsei and levels were practically "seated" on the "necessary shelves" and bunks, in spite of any foreign howl ...

    And ALL THIS, namely "under the EFFECTIVE" cover of their own, created EXACTLY by the Soviet power, strategic nuclear forces, and the Strategic Missile Forces, as the main strike component, FIRSTLY ...

    So what and who, specifically regarding the Russian strategic nuclear forces and the Strategic Missile Forces, have some "doubts" started? ..

    What is this, babbling about some "two conscripts - drug addicts" at the location of the 42nd division? .. I apologize to ask ...

    Comrades, "anxious", and who, when and where, in the Russian Armed Forces, "let" some "year conscripts" into the combat crews and duty shifts? then "press" ...

    The system, with all its "buttons", is GUARANTEED "sharpened" for an EFFECTIVE and TIMELY response to the REAL start of a MASSIVE nuclear missile strike. Regardless of the "moods" and "political sympathies-antipathies" of the characters "with the buttons" consisting ...
  • 412
    412 8 October 2021 00: 35
    -1
    You would inquire about the shelf life and storage conditions of nuclear weapons.
    1. ABC-schütze
      ABC-schütze 8 October 2021 14: 21
      +1
      The aforementioned "nuclear weapons" are not "stored" on alert. And those that are in the composition of the carriers on the database, are quite themselves checked for FULL ACTUAL COMPLIANCE with the reliability indicators. SYSTEMATICALLY.

      And their "inconsistency" with the laid down performance characteristics, due to the consumption of the resource, if it can somehow "manifest itself", then MOST, in the form of "not at full capacity" operation in the delivery area, after launch. Than in the form of a "leak" in the composition of the carriers at the position ...
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 6 October 2021 06: 58
    +8
    Quote: Stas157
    Put a fool to command the army, and then blame it all on him!

    Now the problem is exactly the same. And even worse. Negative selection in power.

    Pavlov didn’t show himself as a fool before the war began, don’t!
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 6 October 2021 07: 08
      .
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Pavlov himself was a fool before the start of the war did not show, no need!

      And in XNUMX he showed it. And this is so unexpected! ... Or are you completely justifying Pavlov, I do not understand?

      God bless him Pavlov. My comment was not about him. With that deplorable situation, which is now in Russia in terms of personnel, do you at least agree?
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 6 October 2021 07: 16
        +5
        Quote: Stas157
        And in XNUMX he showed it. And this is so unexpected! ... Or are you completely justifying Pavlov, I do not understand?

        Yes, you did not understand a lot of things if, using Pavlov's example, you are trying to compare the current situation with personnel with that of that time, and even drag in anti-selection, by the way, you drag it to a military leader who had successfully fought in Spain.
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 6 October 2021 07: 46
          0
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          successfully fought in Spain

          And Vlasov was called the savior of Moscow ... Come onthose tellthose what a good Pavlov to us!

          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          if, using Pavlov's example, you try to compare the current situation with staff

          Do you think everything is okay with our staff? I think the current situation is much worse than it was before the war in 41. You do not shy away from the answer, praising Pavlov.
          1. Hagen
            Hagen 6 October 2021 08: 32
            +4
            Quote: Stas157
            And Vlasov was called the savior of Moscow ... Let us tell us how good Pavlov is!

            Probably, it is not very correct today to "hang dogs" on some specific personalities. By the end of the 30s, the situation inside the country, I mean, first of all, the unity in the country's leadership, was very tense. Therefore, Stalin, for example, closed many things, such as foreign intelligence, directly to himself, adding to this a rather authoritarian style of governing the country as a whole. The leadership of the NPO and the General Staff did not possess the entirety of the situation in relations between the USSR and the West and had only a picture from the military intelligence of the districts. Therefore, they did not have a clear understanding of the general strategy and plans of Stalin, his strange movements and statements towards Germany. Accordingly, the leadership of the districts experienced no less a lack of understanding of the orders coming from Moscow, correlating them with what they saw in the border zone. As a result, someone in one way or another had to suffer for the edification of everyone else. Pavlov was under the strongest blow of the enemy and the situation on his front turned out to be the most disastrous. In addition, this was the very initial period when the entire leadership was in a state of shock and there was no full awareness of the scale of the impending catastrophe, including with the command personnel. Then there were also failures, such as near Vyazma, or in 1942 at Timoshenko near Millerovo, but Stalin was no longer in a hurry to "scatter" generals. In addition, after going through the second half of 1941 and the first half of 1942, Stalin began to trust and work more with the State Defense Committee and the leadership of the People's Commissariat of Defense in particular.
            1. Victor Tsenin
              Victor Tsenin 6 October 2021 17: 45
              +1
              > Probably not very correct today to "hang dogs" on some specific personalities.

              In theory, just today, from the perspective of the post-knowledge and archives, it is possible and necessary to objectively analyze personalities in order to exclude any misinterpretation.
              By the way, there is an opinion, based on the archives, that Pavlov was a Trotskyist and did deliberately harm.
              In addition, he was rehabilitated by the pest Khrushchev, who slandered Stalin. Based on these data, Pavlov is guilty, because there are no facts proving the opposite and cannot be.

              As an example:
              http://www.hrono.ru/dokum/194_dok/19410706_2.html
              1. Hagen
                Hagen 6 October 2021 19: 40
                +3
                Quote: Victor Tsenin
                In addition, he was rehabilitated by the pest Khrushchev, who slandered Stalin. Based on these data, Pavlov is guilty, because there are no facts proving the opposite and cannot be.

                A hundred rabbits will never make a horse; a hundred suspicions will never make up proof. And as long as there is no evidence of Pavlov's guilt that is sufficiently weighty from the point of view of modernity, then, according to the presumption of innocence adopted in our country, I will not rush to accuse Pavlov of the intentional harm done to him, if any. In our system of criminal law, it is the prosecution that bears the burden of proving the guilt of the accused. Any "misunderstandings" in the accusation are interpreted in favor of the accused.
                1. Victor Tsenin
                  Victor Tsenin 6 October 2021 20: 09
                  0
                  Of course, the presumption of innocence comes first. But, as far as I understand, there is enough testimony and evidence, which is not suspicion, but is numerous evidence. A shallow search yields enough information for a reasonable conclusion.
                  1. Hagen
                    Hagen 6 October 2021 20: 11
                    +3
                    Quote: Victor Tsenin
                    there is enough testimony and evidence, which is not suspicion, but is numerous evidence.

                    Have you read the case?
                  2. Victor Tsenin
                    Victor Tsenin 6 October 2021 20: 15
                    -2
                    This is not an argument about the case. The point is that, as you know, the Internet is not banned, you can find a lot of analyzes of its actions and details about all those involved. Googling about the Trotskyist moment, especially in the context of the Trotskyists' ties with the Nazis in Germany, you will learn a lot, you yourself will draw a conclusion if you study the mass of data in detail.

                    P.S. If the topic is really interesting, pay attention to Pykhalov's book, this historian did a great job. The great slandered war book.
                  3. Hagen
                    Hagen 6 October 2021 20: 22
                    +2
                    Quote: Victor Tsenin
                    Google about the Trotskyist moment, especially in terms of the Trotskyist ties with the Nazis in Germany

                    For me, most of the Internet is nothing more than entertaining reading, on the basis of which I do not form my point of view on historical events. I would prefer a study by an authoritative author in my opinion. So far, I have not seen such a study. It is possible that it exists somewhere, but today I am carried away by somewhat different questions.
                    Quote: Victor Tsenin
                    This is not an argument about the case.

                    I do not pretend to be your beliefs. You can count whatever you like. It is your right. I just expressed my opinion.
                  4. victor50
                    victor50 7 October 2021 10: 10
                    +1
                    Quote: Hagen
                    I would prefer a study by an authoritative author in my opinion.

                    And I would hardly have had enough. Only the materials of the criminal case. And even then ...
                  5. Hagen
                    Hagen 7 October 2021 11: 26
                    +1
                    Quote: victor50
                    Only the materials of the criminal case. And even then ...

                    If you have experience of working as a judge and historian of law of the USSR in the first half of the 20th century, then perhaps you would be able to figure it out purely on the basis of the materials of the UD. The study is based not only on the materials of the criminal case itself, but also on documents characterizing the historical context. For example, the tactics of proof were very specific in those distant times. A frank confession was considered the queen of evidence, which led to their extraction from those under investigation, often by unlawful methods. From the point of view of reaching the truth, this is hardly the most effective and correct way. Therefore, evidence based on confessions and testimonies obtained in this way does not look as convincing today as in the court of the early 40s. But this is my personal opinion, I do not impose it on you.
                  6. victor50
                    victor50 7 October 2021 11: 33
                    +1
                    Quote: Hagen
                    For example, the tactics of proof were very specific in those distant times. A frank confession was considered the queen of evidence, which led to their extraction from those under investigation, often by unlawful methods.

                    For once, I agreed with your opinion. But .. I did not ask you to give lectures. wink
                  7. Hagen
                    Hagen 7 October 2021 11: 39
                    +1
                    Quote: victor50
                    But .. I did not ask you to give lectures.

                    I have given my opinion on the study. Do you want not to read ... request
                  8. victor50
                    victor50 7 October 2021 11: 42
                    +1
                    Quote: Hagen
                    I have given my opinion on the study. Do not want to not read.

                    First, it’s not my own (it’s a standard template). Secondly, why? Do you think someone doesn’t know, or no one but you?
                  9. Hagen
                    Hagen 7 October 2021 11: 51
                    -1
                    Quote: victor50
                    At first

                    I suppose, as a matter of fact, you have no questions for me? hi
                  10. victor50
                    victor50 7 October 2021 12: 05
                    0
                    Quote: Hagen
                    Quote: victor50
                    At first

                    I suppose, as a matter of fact, you have no questions for me? hi

                    No. Have a nice day! hi
                2. Sergej1972
                  Sergej1972 7 October 2021 17: 06
                  0
                  Comments are for everyone, this one is not a personal one. For example, this comment was interesting to me.
          2. El Barto
            El Barto 14 October 2021 11: 33
            0
            You are wrong in assessing the historical context. In the Soviet Union of the period 30-50 years, recognition was never considered "the queen of evidence." As, however, in the entire continental tradition, within which the Soviet system of law developed.
            That is, self-incrimination was not required for conviction, and not a single judicial authority issued a verdict on the basis of self-incrimination.
            What, by the way, the same Vyshinsky insistently reminded of in his articles and speeches, when he wrote that, unlike the bourgeois system in Soviet legal proceedings, recognition can in no way be considered the queen of evidence, work better comrades investigators and prosecutors.

            In practice, the facts of "knocking out testimonies" were aimed at obtaining testimony against other persons. In the presence of cross-incriminating evidence, self-incrimination is not necessary at all. Here "cleanliness" is used as a softening factor, while its absence, on the contrary, shows the suspect's stubbornness and lack of remorse.

            In the historical aspect, it is important that until the 1950s there were practically no people with higher education among law enforcement officers and prosecutors, and indeed there were not so many people with at least some kind of education. A significant part of them came to the service in all kinds of "recruits", because there was nowhere to take personnel, and this work was not prestigious and easy and did not enjoy popularity.
            That is, the overwhelming majority of employees were simply legally and operatively illiterate. Hence, most of the violations and failures in the work of "organs".
            Basically the same problem as in the army, only worse
    2. victor50
      victor50 7 October 2021 10: 07
      0
      Quote: Victor Tsenin
      The point is that, as you know, the Internet is not banned, you can find a lot of analyzes of its actions and details about all those involved.

      Probably, you will not find only objections and argumentation of Pavlov himself. It is easy to blame someone who can no longer defend themselves. This is not love for Pavlov, but the same presumption of innocence.
    3. Victor Tsenin
      Victor Tsenin 7 October 2021 11: 32
      -1
      Why, then, objections and argumentation and testimony are abundant.
      The interrogation report of July 11, 1941, for example, is quite eloquent.
    4. victor50
      victor50 7 October 2021 11: 37
      0
      Quote: Victor Tsenin
      The interrogation report of July 11, 1941, for example, is quite eloquent.
      Quote: Victor Tsenin
      Why, then, objections and argumentation and testimony are abundant.

      You, as far as I understand, have your own claims to him, different from those presented at that time? No?
    5. Victor Tsenin
      Victor Tsenin 7 October 2021 11: 43
      +2
      I have no complaints, the truth is interesting, regardless of political / personal beliefs.
    6. victor50
      victor50 7 October 2021 11: 43
      +1
      Quote: Victor Tsenin
      I have no complaints, the truth is interesting, regardless of political / personal beliefs.

      + hi
  • ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 7 October 2021 14: 15
    +2
    What, in the context of evidence and events of 80 years ago, does it mean - "from the point of view of modernity"? ..

    The anti-Stalinist, "accusatory" howls of Khrushchev at the 20th Congress, were they purely opportunistic and political? .. Or did they have some intelligible, OBJECTIVE - SCIENTIFIC "evaluative" basis?

    The latter, I would, earnestly ask not to "confuse" with Khrushchev's selectively selected documentary texture for "denunciations" ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 6 October 2021 09: 18
    +3
    Quote: Stas157
    Let's tell us how good Pavlov is!

    And why, it is enough that he was not a fool. Or do you insist on it?

    Quote: Stas157
    Do you think everything is okay with our staff?
    What does Pavlov have to do with this?


    Quote: Stas157
    You don't shy away from the answer praising Pavlov.
    Why for the sake of I will answer some questions that are not related to the article. Moreover, combined with impudent lies. Where did you see Pavlov's praise?
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 6 October 2021 10: 49
      -4
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      And why, it is enough that he was not a fool. Or you insist On this?

      I don’t insist. And incompetent and irresponsible? Many criminals were not fools, probably Vlasov too. Once again, my post was not about Pavlov.

      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      С why for I will answer some questions not related to the article.

      But you reacted to my comment! And now into the bushes?

      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      с insolent lies

      Do not worry so much! And what's the lie? In the fact that you whitewash Pavlov, with the foam of your mouth proving what kind of hero he is and not at all fools?

      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Where did you see the praise of Pavlov?

      And then what? You only write good things about him. How do you understand?

      Any criminal and villain can have some positive traits and it will be true... But people don't do that. Because after a crime that led to a terrible tragedy and the death of tens of thousands of people, no another truth is no longer important.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 6 October 2021 12: 48
        -3
        Quote: Stas157
        Once again, my post was not about Pavlov.
        What, not at all about him?
        Quote: Stas157
        Put a fool to command the army, and then blame it all on him!
        If this is not about Pavlov, then excuse me.


        Quote: Stas157
        In the fact that you whitewash Pavlov, with the foam of your mouth proving what kind of hero he is and not at all fools?
        Foaming at the mouth? Yes, you seem to be a fool here.

        Quote: Stas157
        But you reacted to my comment! And now into the bushes?
        To the part of the comment that I saw fit.

        Quote: Stas157
        Any criminal and villain can have some positive traits and this will be true.
        So the fool Pavlov or is it still a criminal? Because the words:
        quote = Stas157] Put the fool to command the army, and then blame it all on him! [/ quote all the same about the fool.
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 7 October 2021 08: 42
          -1
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          it's not about Pavlova

          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          So fool Pavlov or is it still a criminal?

          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Pavlov what does it have to do with it?

          Your Pavlov does not rest against me at all. I even have such words Pavlov was not in my original comment! But you have become attached to this Pavlov and you have already sprinkled him with a comment in a row. Say, how dare I cast a shadow on your beloved Pavlov! Calm down at last.
  • Captain45
    Captain45 6 October 2021 13: 23
    +1
    Quote: Stas157
    I think the current situation is much worse than it was before the war in 41. You do not shy away from the answer, praising Pavlov.

    This is your subjective opinion and you have the right to it, just do not need to convince others of this. They have their own opinion about the situation.
  • 210ox
    210ox 6 October 2021 14: 12
    +2
    The man was at a loss in the beginning of the meat grinder. The fools were not kept in command at that time. Maybe there was one as an exception, Kulik. And in the end he deserved the bullet.
    1. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 7 October 2021 17: 09
      +3
      Kulik was shot not for his behavior during the war, but for his post-war conversations.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 7 October 2021 21: 38
    +1
    Pavlov didn’t show himself as a fool before the war began, don’t!

    Well, I wouldn't say ...
    From Pavlov's report at a meeting of the senior leadership of the Red Army on December 23-31, 1940

    To destroy an anti-tank gun, as a rule, a 122-mm howitzer is used. You need 70 - 90 shells. I ask you: how much will a heavy tank [shells] need to suppress one anti-tank gun? Either nothing, or one shot. I repeat, for a heavy tank that does not know what the effect of an anti-tank gun is.

    (S. K. Timoshenko: All this for the time being.)

    I'll tell you about it.

    In order to suppress the battery, 152 mm rounds from 400 to 700 pieces are required.

    With the massive use of tanks, I will allow myself to ask the question: how many shots will a tank company of heavy tanks need to fire in order to suppress a battery of 75-mm guns?

    As you can see, comrades, the matter is very simple and seemingly economical. I argue that having a large number of heavy tanks will greatly help the artillery in its work and will reduce the consumption of shells.


    Where did he get such numbers from? Economist-mathematician ... And Timoshenko was much smarter than him. There is a reaction to every action. Having listened to Pavlov, we received huge losses of tanks at the beginning of the war.
  • Proxima
    Proxima 6 October 2021 08: 39
    +12
    Quote: Stas157
    Put a fool to command the army, and then blame it all on him!

    Why blame everything on him? Pavlov is head over heels of his sins! fellow The worst charge is servility... Pavlov reported to Moscow only the information that they wanted to hear there., namely, that everything is calm at the border, and if there is some kind of "rustle-heap", then you do not need to succumb to provocations, well, and "adjusted" to the green on the forehead ...
  • Catfish
    Catfish 6 October 2021 12: 08
    +3
    A good comment, I completely agree with you.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 6 October 2021 13: 41
    +5
    Quote: Stas157
    But there the war straightened everything out. Voroshilov and Budyonny, having lost confidence, remained wedding marshals until the end of the war. But the cost of this error of 41 was enormous.

    In fairness, Voroshilov and Budyonny were assigned to command the directions after promising young staff were defeated in a border battle. That is to say, since the young did not succeed - let's put on the old proven personnel. But it also did not grow together.

    By the way, on September 11, 1941, Comrade Budyonny asked for permission to withdraw the SWF troops to the rear line in an organized manner, or at least withdraw the troops from the KiUR. because by this time, the enemy's plans for the coverage and encirclement of the Southwestern Front from the direction of Novgorod-Seversky and Kremenchug were fully identified, and the South-Western Front is unable to counteract this without the withdrawal of troops. Result: on September 12, Budyonny was removed, and on September 14, Kleist's tanks met with Guderian's tanks, starting the formation of the Kiev cauldron.
    1. boris epstein
      boris epstein 6 October 2021 16: 15
      +5
      Agree. And KE Voroshilov piled Manstein near Soltsy (Leningrad Front) back in 1941, as a result of which he withdrew part of the personnel from the encirclement, abandoning military and transport equipment, and in early 1942 he piled on Kleist, freeing Rostov.
  • toha124
    toha124 6 October 2021 15: 27
    +5
    What does power have to do with it? Negative selection in a peacetime army is the scourge of any military. Regardless of the geographic location of the country, its size, form of government. Remember 1994, for example. Soviet commanders fought still. Too different qualities are needed for effective leadership of troops in battle and career advancement. And it's not always about bad senior bosses. Very often a strong-willed and competent commander (and any other leader) is an extremely uncomfortable subordinate. Will sit still ...
  • Siberian54
    Siberian54 6 October 2021 16: 22
    +2
    Stas157 \ Budyonny fought with dignity, there is no need to repeat the liberal lies of the Jewish edition of perestroika "Ogonyok". It is not his fault that the centuries of cavalry are over and he has nowhere to apply his knowledge
  • alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 6 October 2021 19: 55
    +9
    Stop stop ... Why did you decide that Budyonny and Voroshilov are useless commanders. It was the troops under the command of Voroshilov who slammed Manstein's hara near Soltsy. And Budyonny's troops skillfully avoided the boilers. And if it were not for Kirponos's pontowing, the tragedy would hardly have occurred near Kharkov
  • Alekseev
    Alekseev 7 October 2021 12: 21
    +2
    Quote: Stas157
    Put a fool to command the army, and then blame it all on him!

    And who put the fool? Yes, if only Pavlov ...
    It's just that in the direction of the main attack, the confusion and inability of Pavlov and the headquarters of the Western Front (and the district, before the district became a front) were most clearly highlighted.
    Our opinions are just our opinions. but ... there is evidence from authoritative contemporaries.
    "Knowing the commander of the Western Front, General DG Pavlov, long before the start of the war (in 1930 he was the commander of a regiment in the division I commanded), I could have concluded in advance that he was a match for Kirponos, if not even weaker than him."
    KK Rokossovsky
    "Pavlov had the ceiling of a division commander, but he was tried as a front commander."
    G.K. Zhukov
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 8 October 2021 22: 47
    0
    I wonder what relation this expert has to the army (or the level of command / staff training) ??? For mixing warm with soft just on the face
  • user
    user 9 October 2021 10: 04
    0
    Stalin is to blame and point,


    It's the same now. The new government is like a nightmare if suddenly the people start comparing it with Joseph Vissarionovich, because in 13 years he has increased the country's GDP by 63 times.
    How many now? Only for God's sake it is not necessary to say that it was easier then, just the opposite.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 18 October 2021 08: 12
    0
    As a rule, fools do not reach the level of generals, Pavlov turned on the fool and the little girl during the investigation, which, he did not believe. Not the level to not know what and how.
  • Dimitrijj
    Dimitrijj 6 October 2021 06: 29
    +4
    and the Kiev boiler?
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 6 October 2021 06: 39
      -6
      Quote: Dimitrijj
      and the Kiev boiler?

      There is a miscalculation of the Headquarters, or rather Stalin, who also did not want to surrender Kiev, which was the capital of Ukraine.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 6 October 2021 08: 34
        +2
        who didn’t want to take even Kiev

        Politics. It was at this time that negotiations were underway with England for help, the surrender of such a city could put an end to the future Lend-Lease.
        1. citizen
          citizen 6 October 2021 19: 35
          -1
          What does Lend-Lease and England have to do with it?
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 6 October 2021 19: 38
            0
            Despite the fact that, at that time, this only superpower was at war with Hitler, besides the USSR. And in the fall, she gave lend-lease assistance - part of her assistance from the United States.
            1. citizen
              citizen 6 October 2021 19: 44
              0
              Under the terms of Lend-Lease, the recipient country could not transfer aid from the United States to third countries. Negotiations were underway with England on the supply of British weapons and materials.
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 6 October 2021 19: 46
                +2
                Negotiations were under way with England on the supply of British weapons and materials.

                Well, you know everything yourself, but you ask.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 6 October 2021 13: 44
        +6
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        There is a miscalculation of the Headquarters, or rather Stalin, who also did not want to surrender Kiev, which was the capital of Ukraine.

        There is zugzwang. We sit still - we get a boiler. We begin the withdrawal of troops - we get a rout on the march.
        Your proposal to withdraw troops to the line of a river known to you seems to me dangerous. If we turn to the recent past, then you will remember that when the troops were withdrawn from the region of Berdichev and Novograd-Volynsk, you had a more serious line - r. The Dnieper and, in spite of this, during the withdrawal of the troops lost two armies, and the withdrawal turned into a flight, and the enemy on the shoulders of the fleeing troops crossed the next day to the eastern bank of the Dnieper. What a guarantee that the same will not happen again now, this is the first.

        And then the second ... in the given situation on the eastern bank, your proposed withdrawal of troops will mean the encirclement of our troops.
        © IVS
      3. zenion
        zenion 6 October 2021 18: 56
        0
        Cat_Kuzya. The Germans had to be kept near Kiev as much as there were opportunities for this. It was necessary to prepare to repulse the main blow - Moscow. And it turned out that it was time lost by the Germans. Instead of tearing the main Moscow junction through which the main railway went in all directions from Moscow. Then the German generals made Hitler the guilty one. If he had listened to them, then Moscow would have been captured by the war kaput. But besides Kiev, there were many points where it was possible to detain the divisions and armies of the Germans, not allowing them to connect.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 6 October 2021 07: 06
    .
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    If in the Ukraine and the Baltic states, although they were retreating, they did not fall into the cauldrons and did not surrender in hundreds of thousands, as was the case on the Western Front.

    belay
    The most terrible Kiev cauldron is what? And Umansky? And Vilnius, surrendered on the 3rd day of the war? And the captured Latvia in 2 weeks?

    Despite the fact that the strongest grouping of the Nazis was precisely against the Western Front.
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Pavlov was tried and shot for outright criminal inaction, which looks like a deliberate treacherous inaction.

    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Pavlov was tried and shot for outright criminal inaction, which looks like a deliberate treacherous inaction.

    Pavlova was shot by the leadership for OWN system failures and mistakes. Incl. and for the appointment of an unprepared Pavlov to the post Typical scapegoat.
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    although as early as June 18, 1941, all the districts received an order to evacuate the families of servicemen away from the border and withdraw troops to field conditions.

    the archives do not know any order of June 18 on the withdrawal of troops into the field.

    As for the legal aspect, the author did not tell about it.

    And today we have, the fact that the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the USSR issued a ruling, by which the verdict of July 22, 1941 was canceled due to newly discovered circumstances, and the case was dropped due to lack of corpus delicti... Dmitry Grigorievich Pavlov was posthumously restored to the military rank \

    By the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of November 25, 1965 inreinstated in the title of Hero of the Soviet Union and in the rights to all state awards.
    But, let's say, this did not work out to the north:

    On June 18, 1941, parts of the corps were raised on alert and withdrawn to the concentration areas, thus, by June 22, 1941, the 2nd Panzer Division was in the area of ​​the Gaizhuny station, Rukle, the 5th Panzer Division was concentrated several kilometers south of Alytus, and 84 -I motorized division in the woods near Kaishadoris.

    So Kuznetsov remained the commander of the army.

    It turned out that in the Baltics, the defeat took place even more rapidly with the loss of almost all tanks in the first days of the war, the transfer of strategic bridges intact to the enemy, etc.

    So Kuznetsov was removed. But they did not shoot, otherwise almost all the generals would have to be shot ...
  • Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
    Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 6 October 2021 08: 18
    +4
    Criminal inaction. Exactly. The military cannot be negligent. Or maybe Pavlov was a Trotskyist who was not shot in time? He was acquitted early, early. We still need to figure it out in detail. However, Zhukov also has a share of guilt up to June 1941.
    1. Sergey-1950
      Sergey-1950 6 October 2021 11: 04
      +4
      Quote: Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
      Criminal inaction. Exactly. The military cannot be negligent. Or maybe Pavlov was a Trotskyist who was not shot in time? He was acquitted early, early. We still need to figure it out in detail. However, Zhukov also has a share of guilt up to June 1941.

      Andrey, you are one of the sane participants. But a lot of you have no idea what happened then and why. I would advise you to read Dmitry Egorov's book "June 1941. The Defeat of the Western Front". The book is amazing both in the amount of material collected by the author and in the quality of the analysis of events. But what is most valuable in it is that the events are systematized strictly by day and by fronts / armies. And then you read a Soviet book about those events ... First, the duty phrases about the huge superiority of the German forces in the decisive sectors, then about the heroic battle completely surrounded by the xx25th regiment of the xxxth rifle division, the remnants of which, after two days of fighting, went to a breakthrough. .. A couple more examples of the selfless struggle of Lieutenant Ivanov and Private Sidorov ... And the question arises: what was the rest of the division doing? And the neighboring divisions on the right and on the left ... Why not words about this.

      So, there was no such guilt of Pavlov. Stalin decided to blame someone else on the catastrophic start of the war. It was unfair and proved pointless and even harmful. By hastily shooting several generals, Stalin deprived himself of the opportunity to punish real fools. But there were division commanders and commissars who abandoned their units and fled into the dark. These were the ones who had to be in front of the formation. To his credit, he realized that the executions so fettered the command's initiative that the war could be lost for sure.
      The over-centralization of the army was to blame. It backfired even in June 1942, when the Germans, at dawn on June 28, rolled out the 40th army of Lieutenant General Parsegov. June 1941 was repeated only on a smaller scale.
      1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
        Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 7 October 2021 07: 54
        +2
        Thanks for the advice, I will definitely read it! I confess that I have been "investigating" the rout of the Red Army in June-July 1941 for myself for a long time. But there was no answer, and no. Sometimes it seems that I am close to a solution, but then it turns out that again it is not right. I'm going to go crazy about this topic soon ...
    2. zenion
      zenion 6 October 2021 19: 01
      +4
      It turned out strange when orders were sent from the front headquarters to send a division, or a corps in such and such a direction, just captured by the Germans. In addition, the conscription order in Ukraine was not carried out in the western regions at all. Weapons and ammunition, as well as fuels and lubricants disappeared into nowhere. My wife's grandfather was summoned and sent to the station, where they had to receive everything in order to be combat-ready. Everything had gone somewhere, but it was far from the front, but it was gone.
  • BAI
    BAI 6 October 2021 08: 57
    +9
    If in the Ukraine and the Baltic states, although they retreated, they did not fall into the cauldrons

    And the Kiev and Umansky boilers, excuse me, where?
    Kirponos was not prosecuted because he died. Konev, after the Vyazemsky cauldron, was going to be tried, but Zhukov saved him. But Timoshenko and Khrushchov were forgiven for Kharkov - times have changed.
  • Doctor
    Doctor 6 October 2021 09: 05
    -2
    Pavlov was tried and shot for outright criminal inaction, which looks like a deliberate treacherous inaction. If in the Ukraine and the Baltic states, although they were retreating, they did not fall into the cauldrons and did not surrender in hundreds of thousands, as was the case on the Western Front. And by the way, about the garrison of the Brest Fortress, which was trapped with their families, although on June 18, 1941, all districts received an order to evacuate servicemen's families away from the border and withdraw troops to field conditions.

    Yes, they all merged. They just shot one Pavlov for some reason.

    By the way, about the Brest Fortress and the trap.
    For 70 years, everyone has been repeating this, forgetting that fortresses are built for this purpose, in order to protect them and not try to escape from them. It's like the Turks in Izmail were trapped. laughing
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 6 October 2021 09: 27
      +4
      Fortresses lost their importance in the war of motors, not like in past centuries, plus there were many civilians in the Brest fortress, a hospital, in general there were a lot of people who could not take a direct part in the defense and it turned out to be a trap for everyone who was inside.
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 6 October 2021 10: 22
        +1
        Fortresses lost their importance in the war of motors, not like in past centuries, plus there were many civilians in the Brest fortress, a hospital, in general there were a lot of people who could not take a direct part in the defense and it turned out to be a trap for everyone who was inside.

        And what have the motors got to do with it, the Germans took the fortress with the forces of one 45th Infantry Division.

        And civilians are always in the fortresses,
        and a hospital during the defense will not be superfluous.
    2. alstr
      alstr 6 October 2021 10: 50
      +6
      The problem is that there is a fortress garrison and everyone else. Only the garrison should remain.
      In reality, there were units that were supposed to occupy sections of the border. But they didn’t. Plus, there were many headquarters and other logistical services in the fortress. As a result, a situation arose that it was simply impossible physically to withdraw ALL superfluous from the fortress in a short time.

      And it turned out that people died in vain in the fortress and the border was not covered, which allowed the Germans to take advantage of these holes.
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 6 October 2021 11: 01
        0
        The problem is that there is a fortress garrison and everyone else. Only the garrison should remain.
        In reality, there were units that were supposed to occupy sections of the border. But they didn’t. Plus, there were many headquarters and other logistical services in the fortress. As a result, a situation arose that it was simply impossible physically to withdraw ALL superfluous from the fortress in a short time.

        And it turned out that people died in vain in the fortress and the border was not covered, which allowed the Germans to take advantage of these holes.

        What sections of the border? The Brest Fortress is the main stronghold of the 62nd fortified area. That is why the staffs and generals were in it.

        Who scrambled, leaving the showdown with the Germans to the captain. wink
        1. sidoroff
          sidoroff 6 October 2021 11: 20
          +2
          there were no headquarters or generals in the Fortress. were in Brest itself - a couple of kilometers to the east. the headquarters of the 4th army was located
          in Kobrin - another 40 km. to the East .
        2. alstr
          alstr 6 October 2021 11: 24
          +6
          We read on Wikipedia:
          "According to General L. M. Sandalov," the deployment of Soviet troops in Western Belarus was not initially subject to operational considerations, but was determined by the presence of barracks and premises suitable for the deployment of troops. This, in particular, explained the crowded location of half of the troops of the 4th Army with all their warehouses of inviolable reserves (NZ) on the very border - in Brest and the Brest Fortress. ”[13] According to the 1941 cover plan, the 28th Rifle Corps, consisting of the 42nd and 6th Rifle Divisions, had to organize a defense on a wide front at prepared positions in the Brest fortified area [14]. Of the troops stationed in the fortress, only one rifle battalion was envisaged for its defense, reinforced by an artillery battalion. "

          You understand that in addition to the fortress itself, there is also its foreground, which must be filled with troops in order to cover the weak points of the defense.
          It was to fill the pre-field that troops were needed, which were in the fortress, and not in the positions.
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 6 October 2021 12: 43
            -1
            "According to General L. M. Sandalov," the deployment of Soviet troops in Western Belarus was not initially subject to operational considerations, but was determined by the presence of barracks and premises suitable for the deployment of troops. This, in particular, explained the crowded location of half of the troops of the 4th Army with all their warehouses of inviolable reserves (NZ) on the very border - in Brest and the Brest Fortress. ”[13] According to the 1941 cover plan, the 28th Rifle Corps, consisting of the 42nd and 6th Rifle Divisions, had to organize a defense on a wide front at prepared positions in the Brest fortified area [14]. Of the troops stationed in the fortress, only one rifle battalion was envisaged for its defense, reinforced by an artillery battalion. "

            Sandalov kept silent in his memoirs why such "crowding" is needed. Then, that this is not crowding at all, but CONCENTRATION.
            For according to the "cover plan" the 4th army as part of the Western Front had to:

            - with the transition of the armies of the Southwestern Front to the offensive, a blow from the left wing of the front in the directions of Warsaw, Siedlec, Radom, smash the Warsaw grouping and capture Warsaw [assist] in cooperation with the Southwestern Front, smash the Lublin-Radom grouping of the enemy, go to the river ... Vistula and mobile units to capture the Rad [and provide this operation from Warsaw and East Prussia].

            https://www.1000dokumente.de/?c=dokument_ru&dokument=0024_zuk&l=ru&object=translation
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 6 October 2021 14: 18
              +4
              Quote: Arzt
              For according to the "cover plan" the 4th army as part of the Western Front had to:

              - with the transition of the armies of the Southwestern Front to the offensive, a blow from the left wing of the front in the directions of Warsaw, Siedlec, Radom, smash the Warsaw grouping and capture Warsaw [assist] in cooperation with the Southwestern Front, smash the Lublin-Radom grouping of the enemy, go to the river ... Vistula and mobile units to capture the Radom [and ensure this operation from Warsaw and East Prussia]
              .

              This is not a cover plan, but unsigned "Considerations for the plan for the strategic deployment of Soviet forces in the event of a war with Germany and its allies." The very ones according to which we were supposed to build the SD on the border with Hungary in 1942. smile
              At the same time, it is necessary to speed up the construction and armament of fortified areas in every possible way, begin the construction of fortified areas on the rear line of Ostashkov, Pechep and provide for the construction of new fortified areas in 1942 on the border with Hungary, as well as continue the construction of fortified areas along the line of the old state border.


              In the KOVO cover plan, it is clearly written that the divisions stationed in Brest and the fortresses scatter in alarm along the strip of the Brest UR.
              Units rise to combat alert in compliance with all measures to maintain military secrets and exit:
              (...)
              i) the 42nd rifle division, 30 hours after the announcement of the combat alert, occupies the Brest UR and field reinforcement positions along the state border at the front of Buyaki, Melnik, Orlya;
              j) The 6th rifle division, 3-9 hours after the announcement of the combat alert, occupies the Brest UR and the field reinforcement positions along the state border at the Ogorodniki, Brest-Litovsk, Zakazanka front;
          2. Doctor
            Doctor 6 October 2021 12: 55
            -3
            You understand that in addition to the fortress itself, there is also its foreground, which must be filled with troops in order to cover the weak points of the defense.
            It was to fill the pre-field that troops were needed, which were in the fortress, and not in the positions.

            There was no room for a foreground. According to the protocol, the border was generally supposed to pass along the Bug River and divide Brest and the fortress. The western branch of the Brest Fortress was to go to the Germans.
            But our heroic sappers blew up the lintels overnight and put water back into the old channel. wink

            1. sidoroff
              sidoroff 6 October 2021 13: 19
              0
              on the contrary, they poured it in. the Germans, who had been in the fortress for three years in the First World War and a couple of days in September 1939, pretended that
              and so it was. who outwitted whom is an interesting question.
            2. alstr
              alstr 6 October 2021 14: 19
              +3
              The foreground is not only what is in front of the Fortress, but also from the flanks and even in the rear.
              and if you read it in full, then these parts should occupy the Brest UR. And yes, part of it was the Brest Fortress.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 6 October 2021 14: 07
      +6
      Quote: Arzt
      By the way, about the Brest Fortress and the trap.
      For 70 years, everyone has been repeating this, forgetting that fortresses are built for this purpose, in order to protect them and not try to escape from them.

      The problem is that the Brest Fortress in 1941 was a fortress only in name. It was a fortress in 1914 - and then only after the completion of the letter forts and batteries of the outer line, capable of resisting the artillery fire of modern artillery and pushing the positions of enemy artillery beyond the effective range of fire at the core of the fortress.
      By 1941, only the citadel remained of the Brest Fortress proper (the engineering equipment of which corresponded to the serf standards of a century ago) and the remains of fortifications, most of which were blown up in 1915 (and some of them ended up abroad). The new fortress was supposed to be the Brest UR, the defensive areas of which stretched 170 km along the border (and partially included the few surviving forts of Brest). The Brest fortress with its barracks fund turned into a place of permanent deployment of units and formations that were supposed to fill this UR.

      That is, in 1941 the Brest Fortress was, rather, a Brest military town.
    4. boris epstein
      boris epstein 6 October 2021 16: 20
      +3
      Not only Pavlov was shot. The chief of staff of the BOVO Klimovskys, the chief of communications of the BOVO Grigoriev and the commander of the border army Korobkov were shot.
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 6 October 2021 19: 52
        0
        Not only Pavlov was shot. The chief of staff of the BOVO Klimovskys, the chief of communications of the BOVO Grigoriev and the commander of the border army Korobkov were shot.

        Yes, as usual, those who fell under the hot hand were shot.

        In the Bialystok salient there were 3 border armies, the commander of the 4th Korotkov was unlucky, and the commanders of the 3rd and 10th Kuznetsov and Golubev hid from Mehlis in the troops and survived.
        They calmly commanded the armies until the end of the war, and Visil Vanych Kuznetsov, at the head of the 3-shock, even took the Reichstag.
        Although, according to rumors, he called the Supreme a fool. laughing
      2. Sergey-1950
        Sergey-1950 7 October 2021 11: 24
        +1
        The one who was shot for the cause was Korobkov, the commander of the 4th Army. Two rifle divisions (out of five rifle divisions in total in the 4th army) were located in the fortress. True, one regiment was outside Brest. Korobkov, saw better than the General Staff and the district command what was happening on the border. These divisions, the 6th and 42nd, were intended to cover 100 km of the border. Korobkov, as commander of the army, had the right, without asking anyone's permission, to alert one division and arrange a march or exercise. Second, according to the established practice, all regiments of divisions covering the border sent one or two battalions to work in the URs. That is, he could, without violating the job description, send three-quarters of the inmates in the fortress to the border. A little more difficult with artillery and ammo. But this question could have been thought over, in any case, both of them could be adjusted as much as possible in the conclusion and delivery to the border. For some reason, in the fifth army beyond Pripyat, they began to take positions on the border even before the decryption of the adopted directive. And Korobkov was holding a quarter of his troops in a mousetrap and did not even lift a finger to avoid slamming this mousetrap.

        Thus, the STRONGEST Panzer group of the Wehrmacht was advancing on the most unprotected section of the border. But the 4th Army was able to restrain the Germans. And this was shown by the neighboring 5th Army, which was also rammed by a German tank group.

        If the Germans moved from Brest to Baranovichi at least at a speed of 10-20 km per day, then they would not have been able to close the Bialystok boiler on the fourth day. Pavlov on the third or fourth day already fully realized where events were developing and knew how to act. But he did not have troops at hand in this direction. The 6th and 42nd divisions no longer existed as combat units, the 14th mechanized corps had grinded down to the tank regiment. If it were not for the rapid movement of the Germans, this direction could have been strengthened by the formations of the 10th Army of Golubev. But in those conditions, they could not have time to occupy the defensive lines.
        Thus, the disaster of the 4th Army led to the disaster of the entire Western Front. And the catastrophe of the Western Front confused all the cards. To the west, two armies (16th and 19th) and SEVEN anti-tank artillery regiments were transferred only to the Southwestern Front. This ultimately led first to Uman, then to a boiler near Kiev.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 6 October 2021 10: 36
    +4
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Pavlov was tried and shot for outright criminal inaction, which looks like a deliberate treacherous inaction. If in the Ukraine and the Baltic states, although they were retreating, they did not fall into the cauldrons and did not surrender in hundreds of thousands, as was the case on the Western Front. And by the way, about the garrison of the Brest Fortress, which was trapped with their families, although on June 18, 1941, all districts received an order to evacuate servicemen's families away from the border and withdraw troops to field conditions.

    Pavlov exactly followed the orders of the General Staff. There was no boiler in the Baltics, because the Germans were making a boiler in Belarus. Just because. There was no order on the 18th, and even more so about the evacuation of the families of servicemen. And there was no order, because according to intelligence from RU, the Germans were not ready for war.
    You have to read a lot.
  • _TANKIST_
    _TANKIST_ 6 October 2021 11: 59
    0
    If you do not go into the details of the summer of 1941, in no case I am not justifying Pavlov, then the Headquarters of the Central Military District, the only headquarters that almost completely came out of the cauldron, then there was no such thing anywhere or when.
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 6 October 2021 05: 43
    -4
    Before June 22, Pavlov did not have the courage to bring the troops into full combat readiness to repel the attack of the Germans ... Stalin demanded not to succumb to the provocations of the Germans, he also punished mercilessly for hearing ... here either pan or disappear ... Pavlov chose the latter. ..bad luck. what
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 6 October 2021 08: 40
      +5
      I also punished mercilessly for hearing ...

      And who did he punish "who succumbed to provocations"? Is it not a crime to keep a division in a fortress, which was killed there? The Germans later published their losses in the capture of the Brest fortress - less than 500 people were killed. Well, there are probably three times more wounded. And ours were in the fortress more than 7000. Again, the Germans blocked the fortress and went on. And if the division had been deployed in accordance with the order of 18.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX, the situation would have been different. Pavlov deserved to be executed. And Khrushch the Corn is the forerunner of the marked hump.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 6 October 2021 09: 19
        +1
        Quote: Aviator_
        The Germans later published their losses in the capture of the Brest fortress - less than 500 people were killed.
        Well, the Germans published a lot of what numbers, like the 300 shot down by Hartmann.
        1. Andrey VOV
          Andrey VOV 6 October 2021 09: 29
          +3
          Indeed, direct German losses during the assault on Brest were exactly like this, it is documented, at the beginning of the war, their accounting was still well established.
        2. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 6 October 2021 19: 22
          +3
          Well, the Germans published a lot of what numbers, like the 300 shot down by Hartmann.
          This is not the case with numbers. In general, I wonder why they stormed the fortress. They went around the fortress, blocked it and went to Minsk.
      2. boris epstein
        boris epstein 6 October 2021 16: 35
        +2
        "The Germans later published their losses during the capture of the Brest Fortress - less than 500 people were killed."
        The 43rd and 45th infantry divisions that stormed the fortress were withdrawn for reorganization after the capture of the fortress. According to German regulations, the division is assigned to reorganization in the event of a loss of at least 20% of its personnel. We count. According to the state, the Wehrmacht infantry division had 10708 personnel and 2005 civilians. Two divisions - 25 416 people. 20% is one fifth. Divide 25416 by 5, we get the loss of 4081 people wounded and killed. And in the fortress on June 22, there were no more than 2000 people from different divisions. Before June 22, 18 of the 26 battalions plus the howitzer and anti-tank regiments, the reconnaissance battalion of the 6th Oryol division and other units were withdrawn to Belovezhskaya Pushcha. Some units of two divisions (6 Oryol and 42 rifle divisions) were stationed in Zhabintsy and Kobrin until June 22.
        1. sidoroff
          sidoroff 6 October 2021 18: 24
          +3
          The 45th Infantry Division, as the units were released and their tasks in the Fortress were completed, went further east. only
          at the Eastern Fort and those who were engaged in the cleanup.
          34th division attacked to the south and in the Fortress in general
          did not take any part.
          in the Fortress, the Germans captured about 7000
          people and about 2000 more Red Army soldiers were
          buried in mass graves.
          1. boris epstein
            boris epstein 7 October 2021 17: 55
            +1
            After the German aviation dropped the one and a half ton bomb, the Eastern Fort was no longer at all. There was no one to clean up. 34th division may have advanced south of the fortress, I do not argue, but the 43rd division from the corps of General Schroth stormed the fortress along with the 45th and corps reinforcement units. Read & Halder's "War Diary". I'm sure he knew better than you. Before the war, 18 of the 26 battalions of these divisions were withdrawn from the fortress. In addition, many parts of these divisions were stationed in Zhabinka and Kobrin before the war. 7000 prisoners, according to German data, is an excuse for Hitler. According to AV Suvorov: "Write more, who will count them, basurmans?" Did you never know the Germans lied? According to the plans, the fortress was to be taken in 2 hours. But even according to German data (again, Halder), the fighting continued until June 29, but in reality there are inscriptions of Soviet soldiers on the plaster of the inner walls, dated even July. I was in the fortress, I was in the fortress museum, in S.S.Smirnov's book there are inscriptions on the walls. "We were three Muscovites - Ivanov, Stepanchikov, Zhuntyaev, who defended this church and we swore an oath to die, but we will not leave here."
            And in general, I have the impression that many people confuse the Brest Fortress with the Southern military town of the city of Brest (but not with the Southern Island of the fortress). Colonel Puganov's tank division was stationed in the southern military town; it suffered minimal losses from the shelling and left the military town in relative order. We decided to march east, but the lack of fuel affected.
            1. sidoroff
              sidoroff 7 October 2021 18: 49
              +1
              I congratulate you for visiting the Fortress. could
              would also visit the Eastern Fort. stands still.
              suffered from a 1.8 ton bomb, but did not disintegrate.
              22 panzer on pre-war
              plans went
              to the area of ​​concentration
              to Zhabinka, but alas, I didn’t make it ..
              where did you find 43 division
              in the Schroth housing? share.?
              1. boris epstein
                boris epstein 8 October 2021 14: 55
                +1
                In my post everything is there. General Schroth's corps included 34, 43 and 45 divisions. You haven't read Halder, so I don't see any point in continuing the discussion. Stop spamming.
              2. boris epstein
                boris epstein 8 October 2021 15: 32
                +1
                "About the 45th Infantry Division.
                "During the German invasion of the USSR, she acted as part of the 12th Army Corps of the 2nd Panzer Group of Army Group Center, took part in the siege of the Brest Fortress, suffering heavy losses (this was then the reason for a special investigation)." - Wikipedia.
                Large losses under the German statute - 20 percent or more of losses.
                "[In October - December 1941, she participated in the offensive against Moscow. In December 1941, she suffered heavy losses near Livny after the attack of Soviet units during the Yelets offensive operation. The remaining formations in the Bolkhov group of the Germans were defeated in the Krivtsovo area in February 1942. The entire archive of the division headquarters, including "Combat report on the capture of Brest-Litovsk" (kept in the archives of the USSR Ministry of Defense, op. 7514, d.1, sheets 227-228), came to the Red Army. first learned the truth about the battles in the Brest Fortress [1] "- Wikipedia.
                That is, from July to October 1941, the 45th division was being reorganized.
                In the period from July to October 1941, Schroth's XII Army Corps fought in two divisions, 34 and 43.
                You have not read Halder. Moreover, Halder's "War Diary" should be read not only what Halder himself wrote, but CAREFULLY read the notes to the entry about each date.
                Therefore, I see no point in continuing the discussion. I will not answer further questions like "where did you find". There are no slaves here. With your handles. If you want to prove something, give arguments. No argument, stop spamming.
                1. sidoroff
                  sidoroff 8 October 2021 16: 01
                  +1
                  we beat wicky with a thick argument:
                  "In mid-July, she acted as part of the 35th Army Corps in Polesie." it's about
                  45th division.
                  we continue to search for 43 division. "the lists are not
                  appears ".
                  1. boris epstein
                    boris epstein 8 October 2021 16: 06
                    0
                    On your lists, yes. A thick argument is hacked with an ax. The thick argument is SPAM without specifying the source.
                    In general, you have no arguments. I DO NOT BELIEVE without specifying the source.
                    1. sidoroff
                      sidoroff 8 October 2021 17: 08
                      +1
                      tovarishch, this is from yours
                      wiki, but a paragraph below.
                      this is .. paragraph.
                      1. boris epstein
                        boris epstein 9 October 2021 15: 20
                        0
                        My Vicky is not there. So maybe YOUR Vicky and the Terespolskie gates are in place and YOUR Germans were in Moscow? I don’t need such lying tovarishchi with surcharge.
                      2. sidoroff
                        sidoroff 9 October 2021 15: 35
                        0
                        and what happened to the Terespol Gate? demolished
                        Germans badly damaged superstructure from the Polish hour, so that Adolf accidentally
                        with Benito did not collapse, and the rest is more or less
                        in place.
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 6 October 2021 05: 54
    +7
    Was Pavlov lying in his reports that capaners were built for aviation, that the units were fully operational? The military inspection found heaps of problems in his units, up to the inability of commanders to command subordinates. Pavlov had someone to blame for everything, he was always always good, and as a result, such a failure in defense at the beginning of the war. Although, to be honest, they were not seriously involved in defense at that time, they wanted to fight only with offensives, with little blood, on the territory of the enemy ...
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 6 October 2021 06: 09
      +1
      Where was the military inspection before ... did it catch on too late ... when the enemy arranged a failed exam for Pavlov ... which he failed miserably.
      1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
        Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 6 October 2021 08: 19
        -1
        And the NKVD also slept ...
  • nickolai.maliugin
    nickolai.maliugin 6 October 2021 06: 03
    +4
    The Amoebas decided to condemn the Atlanteans. Do we have such a right, who have not seen war for 76 years? No one will be able to sort out the war. Better write about the present.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 6 October 2021 06: 10
      +5
      There is ... our descendants will judge us in the same way 76 years later for the Gorbachev and Yeltsin reforms.
      Could you call our descendants amoeba? smile
  • Nafanya from the sofa
    Nafanya from the sofa 6 October 2021 06: 05
    +8
    The rest is politics from Nikita Sergeevich to the current decommunization.

    Nikita rehabilitated not only Pavlov, but also many other enemies of the Soviet state. Including persons who collaborated with the German occupation authorities - policemen, burgomasters, "Vlasovites", etc.
    The consequences of this rehabilitation are now most acutely manifested in Ukraine.
    It is difficult to imagine a more deceitful person than Khrushchev. Read his memoirs. How much dirt he poured on the country and its leaders to whitewash his own deeds. Read the memoirs of Sergei Khrushchev, in which he tries to whitewash his dad, distorting the facts, thereby confirming that Nikita's own memoirs are a complete lie.
    1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
      Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 6 October 2021 08: 24
      0
      By the way, if you believe the book of Beria's son, then his dad is white, fluffy and almost perfect. Sorry, but what son will write badly about a parent?!?
      1. Nafanya from the sofa
        Nafanya from the sofa 6 October 2021 08: 40
        +3
        Not a single large leader is ever "white and fluffy" to the end. Sergo Beria does not send his father, he just talks about his activities. And Sergei Khrushchev cites specific facts of "foolishness" from Nikita's activities and interprets them "topsy-turvy".
        ps By the way, the "foolishness" in the book of Sergo B. is also full. What is the paragraph about how "in the summer of 1945, when Olga Chekhova was in Moscow, my mother told me that during the war she was an agent of my father." It is unlikely that L.P. shared such secrets with his wife.
        1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
          Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 6 October 2021 08: 57
          0
          I don’t remember this episode. I'll have to reread it.
      2. Sergey-1950
        Sergey-1950 6 October 2021 11: 14
        +2
        Quote: Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
        By the way, if you believe the book of Beria's son, then his dad is white, fluffy and almost perfect. Sorry, but what son will write badly about a parent?!?

        Lavrenty Pavlovich is a great politician of the Soviet state. Without him, we would not have had the atomic bomb in 1949. Only the appearance of atomic weapons saved our country from a new "liberation campaign" of the West. As a result, the history of the Eastern Slavs would be over. And now, only a very inquisitive Western reader, from indirect data, could understand that it turns out 70 years ago on the East European Plain and in Siberia there were peoples, about which there is nothing even in Wikipedia.
        1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
          Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 6 October 2021 11: 41
          +4
          I agree with you. Its role has been great since 1939. This is a partial amnesty before the war, and the war itself (the role of the NKVD units in the war is enormous, and we will not talk about "gunmen" now!), And the "atomic project", and ensuring the security of the state.
          For many years I was under the influence of the slander of Beria Khrushchev, but then I realized that it was not all that easy, I began to study the materials and restored the real picture.
          1. Sergey-1950
            Sergey-1950 6 October 2021 12: 59
            +4
            Quote: Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
            I agree with you. Its role has been great since 1939. This is a partial amnesty before the war, and the war itself (the role of the NKVD units in the war is enormous, and we will not talk about "gunmen" now!), And the "atomic project", and ensuring the security of the state.
            For many years I was under the influence of the slander of Beria Khrushchev, but then I realized that it was not all that easy, I began to study the materials and restored the real picture.

            The story with Beria's accusation can be understood from the following everyday sketch:
            Let's say some dirty prostitute with a centimeter plaster, drove a modest girl away from you, drove her under the bench, jumped into your bed and dragged her to the registry office. And you lived your life with her listening to her version of her previous life.
          2. Sergej1972
            Sergej1972 7 October 2021 17: 25
            -3
            And why were Stalin's closest comrades-in-arms, Malenkov, Kaganovich, Molotov, despite their negative attitude towards Khrushchev, until the end of their days were convinced that they did the right thing with Beria?
    2. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 7 October 2021 17: 21
      0
      In Khrushchev's memoirs, on the contrary, I was struck by the fact that in many places he spoke warmly enough about Stalin.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 6 October 2021 06: 37
      +7
      You can also read Elena Prudnikova, where she describes Pavlov's treacherous inactivity.
      1. Sergey-1950
        Sergey-1950 6 October 2021 13: 01
        +2
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        You can also read Elena Prudnikova, where she describes Pavlov's treacherous inactivity.

        Prudnikova has superficial ideas about the pre-war period and about the beginning too. She has clip knowledge of this topic. She is a political historian, not a military one.
        1. Pavel57
          Pavel57 7 October 2021 01: 46
          0
          Prudnikova talked a lot about the military's failure to comply with Directive 1.
          1. Sergey-1950
            Sergey-1950 7 October 2021 11: 25
            -1
            Quote: Pavel57
            Prudnikova talked a lot about the military's failure to comply with Directive 1.

            This directive of June 18 did not exist in nature.
    2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
      Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 6 October 2021 09: 08
      +5
      No, Pavlov is a person who is out of place. His level is divisional commander and not higher. But this was the misfortune of many generals of those years. I can give the names, however, you yourself know about them.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 6 October 2021 14: 21
        +1
        Quote: Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
        No, Pavlov is a person who is out of place. His level is divisional commander and not higher.

        In the army, yes. In technical positions, his ceiling was higher - in fact, as the head of the GABTU, he was in place.
    3. sidoroff
      sidoroff 6 October 2021 11: 25
      -4
      O! Mukhin is the head! able to talk nonsense on any topic. he hasn't given out anything about the covid yet? would gladly read it.
  • svp67
    svp67 6 October 2021 07: 08
    +8
    The author is trying to understand the issue, but alas ...
    Either the non-withdrawal of troops from the Brest citadel, or the concentration along the border of a double set of aircraft, or ...
    So, the bulk of the troops from the Brest Fortress was withdrawn even earlier, for "training sessions" in "field camps". Their remnants, caught by the beginning of the war in the fortress, were already acting as the situation had developed. Those units, where the commanders had time to run, LEAVED from the fortress and went to the concentration areas, the same where the commanders did not have time or could not arrive, and many of them were killed by German saboteurs just on the way to the fortress, remained in the fortress and fought there.
    Aviation, double kit ????? On the first day of that war, our aviation fought desperately, in many places it was able to repel a German strike, but then could not develop this success and died already deprived of gasoline and ammunition, flying to field airfields and losing tactically to the Germans, who already had a rich experience of such defeats. opponents. Our aviation commanders just stayed, in matters of tactics of using aviation in the 30s, and the Germans left, in this matter far ahead.
    Was the command of the Western Front to blame for the defeat? Yes, guilty. This is the fate and share of the commander, he is responsible for everything. Is it fair that they were sentenced to death? Here it is ambiguous ... Of course, it could have been punished and not so severely, but at that moment a good shake-up was needed for all our commanders, and it was carried out. Although, by and large, it was necessary to punish not only them, but also higher commanders, namely the NGSH of the RKKA - Zhukov, the People's Commissar of Defense Timoshenko and the operational management of the General Staff of the RKKA, as well as the leadership of the RKKF. The tragedy that happened largely on their conscience.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 6 October 2021 15: 03
      0
      Quote: svp67
      Aviation, double kit ?????

      This is about a double set of aircraft in the border air regiments of mixed air divisions - old I-15/16 and new MiGs.
      But Pavlov has nothing to do with this - the Air Force rearmament program, the schedule for the arrival of equipment in units and retraining for new equipment was not made by him.
      And the crowding of aircraft at the airfields is also not Pavlov's fault, but the central apparatus of the Air Force. Who, with his ill-considered actions, thwarted the program for the reconstruction of airfields in 1940, so that it had to be carried out in 1941 together with the program of this year.
  • antivirus
    antivirus 6 October 2021 07: 21
    0
    and in the traditional branches of the army, the old cadres were removed with might and main, and the new ones ... One part - burned down in 1937, the other - had little experience.

    - I did not understand how the former nobles could help ... older than Pavlov, the horsemen themselves and the champagne eaters themselves, with contempt for the plebs, + lovers of cacava and coffee - see:
     antivirus 1 Today, 10:11 | Battle of Bucharest
    Sometimes I read about WWI and look at the photos of the "noblest" generals.
    And: a father from 30 years old remembered- "grandfather (my great-grandfather) said:" here we are in the first imperialist .. "and so on (father did not remember or said something empty?)
    Only one episode ----
    IMPORTANT --- REASON FOR THE GREAT OCTOBER SOCIALIST REVOLUTION-
    great-grandfather served as a batman under the officer. serves coffee in bed. "Ivan, I told you how many times I told you. What is needed with the foam." Razz-zzz on the teeth of his great-grandfather. "Go do as taught."
    He went out the door, spat in the cup, shook his finger and handed it again. "That's the way to do it"
    In this spit, the reason for the defeat in the WWI and the destruction of the Ros Empire and its army. Tired of enduring dentists, not re-educated officer A, turned out to be. and the whole nobility
    maybe the reason is dentition?
    27g
  • north 2
    north 2 6 October 2021 07: 42
    +1
    Of course, on June 22, the war struck the commander of the Western Special Military District Pavlov quite unexpectedly. On June 21, Pavlov visited the theater in the evening, and well, the morning is already ... on you, bam and the war. Such relaxation was destroyed. Where was the commander of the ZOVO aviation on June 21, possibly in a movie, but on the morning of June 22, the Germans destroyed more than 600 ZOVO aircraft right on the ground. Moreover, the commander of the ZOVO had a whole intelligence service. Not at the level of a regiment or division, but at the level of the whole Military District. And a few days before June 22, the ZOVO artillery was sent to training grounds at such a distance from the state. borders, so that artillery from there could not even reach the hordes of German divisions rushing into the territory of the USSR with shots, which were to be defended by troops under the command of Pavlov. And the poor families of the defenders of the Brest Fortress. What, the commander of the ZOVO lost his scent and did not smell that he simply stinks of war, or he did not specially evacuate the wives and children of the garrison of the defenders of the Brest Fortress. And Pavlov did not think why his Military District was named Special.? And why would such a commander shoot then? Yes ?
    And life further showed a simple axiom that if after Stalin's death Khrushchev blamed Stalin for something, then Stalin had nothing to do with it ... If, in addition, Khrushchev's ears of guilt in such cases do not stick out there ...
  • Alecsandr
    Alecsandr 6 October 2021 08: 20
    -6
    Here even Zhukov would not have coped with such a strong and organized enemy. And what sabotage groups acted in our rear in the first days of the war. Almost from behind every bush, missiles were fired, aiming their bombers at the target. All telegraph and telephone lines were cut completely. All communications and command and control of troops were lost. Hence the complete confusion and ignorance of the operational situation, which acted in favor of the advancing enemy. Well and, of course, the strategic miscalculations of the General Staff led to a disastrous result. That is how Pavlov fell under the distribution. It was necessary to blame someone else.
    1. north 2
      north 2 6 October 2021 08: 52
      +3
      Quote: Alecsandr
      Here even Zhukov would not have coped with such a strong and organized enemy. And what sabotage groups acted in our rear in the first days of the war. Almost from behind every bush, missiles were fired, aiming their bombers at the target. All telegraph and telephone lines were cut completely. All communications and command and control of troops were lost. Hence the complete confusion and ignorance of the operational situation, which acted in favor of the advancing enemy. Well and, of course, the strategic miscalculations of the General Staff led to a disastrous result. That is how Pavlov fell under the distribution. It was necessary to blame someone else.

      and where did these German sabotage groups penetrate on the eve of the war - in the pasture where the shepherd
      grazing goats, or to the Special Military District, commanded by an army general? Moreover, he has at his disposal both reconnaissance and anti-sabotage units not of the level of a regiment or division there, but of the level of a Special Military District ..
      1. Sergey-1950
        Sergey-1950 6 October 2021 13: 18
        0
        Quote: North 2
        Quote: Alecsandr
        Here even Zhukov would not have coped with such a strong and organized enemy. And what sabotage groups acted in our rear in the first days of the war. Almost from behind every bush, missiles were fired, aiming their bombers at the target. All telegraph and telephone lines were cut completely. All communications and command and control of troops were lost. Hence the complete confusion and ignorance of the operational situation, which acted in favor of the advancing enemy. Well and, of course, the strategic miscalculations of the General Staff led to a disastrous result. That is how Pavlov fell under the distribution. It was necessary to blame someone else.

        and where did these German sabotage groups penetrate on the eve of the war - in the pasture where the shepherd
        grazing goats, or to the Special Military District, commanded by an army general? Moreover, he has at his disposal both reconnaissance and anti-sabotage units not of the level of a regiment or division there, but of the level of a Special Military District ..

        These were not saboteurs, but anti-Soviet locals. The Germans would not have enough saboteurs for all those sabotages.
      2. Alecsandr
        Alecsandr 6 October 2021 21: 27
        0
        Fascist bombers, even before the invasion, systematically began to "wander" over our territory. But the order to shoot them down did not follow from the General Staff. We have a non-aggression pact not to succumb to provocations. And that Pavlov is again to blame?
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon 6 October 2021 08: 38
    +1
    Why Koneev was not shot then everything is the same only the war has been going on for 3 months
    1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
      Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 6 October 2021 11: 45
      +2
      During the battle of Moscow, he was almost brought to trial, but Zhukov saved him. And so they could and shoot.
      1. Walking
        Walking 6 October 2021 17: 37
        +1
        Then Konev did not repay Zhukov with gratitude.
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 6 October 2021 09: 15
    +5
    You can hang all the dogs on Pavlov, but such a moment, no one expected that the 29th Rifle Corps (the former army of Lithuania) would offer almost no resistance, and the Germans would very quickly go to the rear of the Minsk group through Lithuania, which is why they had to surrender Minsk and the entire line of fortifications along the old border of the USSR, moreover, disarmed and overcome by the enemy on the section of the old border between Lithuania and the USSR. The question of who bears the main responsibility for the defeat in June 1941 is still open.
    1. Sergey-1950
      Sergey-1950 6 October 2021 11: 20
      +3
      Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
      You can hang all the dogs on Pavlov, but such a moment, no one expected that the 29th Rifle Corps (the former army of Lithuania) would offer almost no resistance, and the Germans would very quickly go to the rear of the Minsk group through Lithuania, which is why they had to surrender Minsk and the entire line of fortifications along the old border of the USSR, moreover, disarmed and overcome by the enemy on the section of the old border between Lithuania and the USSR. The question of who bears the main responsibility for the defeat in June 1941 is still open.

      It is nice to see not only the writing participant, but also the one who knows the subject of discussion.
  • Operator
    Operator 6 October 2021 11: 38
    -1
    Pavlov's level is a brigade. Therefore, he naturally failed to command the front.
    Pavlov was well aware of his limited capabilities and therefore, before the war, he served as best he could - he disarmed fighter aircraft, brought artillery to exercises separately from the infantry, forbade the withdrawal of units to field positions, etc.
    At the beginning of the war, Pavlov did not understand how to conduct hostilities at the front level and how to control the execution of his orders. By and large, he should have shot himself before the arrival of the commission from Moscow. But he loved himself and his position too much.
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 6 October 2021 13: 04
    +3
    Where did my comment go?
    Read Yu. Mukhin "If it were not for the generals. Problems of the general estate" M., "Yauza", 2006 https://yandex.ru/video/preview/? Text = Yu.% 20Mukhin% 20 "If % 20general "& path = wizard & parent-reqid = 20-20-vla1633490046544771-12401604545575167797-vla-l1-balancer-4455-BAL-7 & wiz_type = v8080thumbs & filmId = 1085
    Pavlov is a traitor like Vlasov, Kirponos and others. And the rehabilitation of some of them by Khrushchev is just another heap for Stalin's grave.
  • Vladimir Popov
    Vladimir Popov 6 October 2021 13: 27
    0
    Of course, blaming everything on Pavlov, as well as whitewashing him, is not entirely reasonable!
    In this story, I was always interested in the role of his chief of staff, Major General Klimovskikh!
    And about him nothing but a sentence! And meanwhile, since June 18, he is no longer the chief of staff of the district, he is the chief of staff of the Western Front!
    If there was a conspiracy, then the main role in it was played not by Pavlov, but by his chief of staff!
    1. gsev
      gsev 13 October 2021 18: 42
      0
      Quote: Vladimir Popov
      Of course, blaming everything on Pavlov, as well as whitewashing him, is not entirely reasonable!

      General Korobkov was shot together with Pavlov. The real reason for the execution of Korobkov is that he retained control of his troops and communication with the higher command. The special officers had the order to shoot only one army commander at the front who was commanded by Pavlov. But the special officers did not know where to look for other commanders of the armies of the Western Front, who, unlike the 4th army, were surrounded, heavily defeated and had no connection with the command. Therefore, the most successful army commander on the Western Front was shot. Thanks to his chief of staff Sandalov, who was paralyzed after the war and did not fear reprisals for seeking truth, Korobkov was rehabilitated by one of the first military leaders.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 6 October 2021 13: 35
    -1
    Stalin is to blame for the fact that he appointed Pavlov, that he did not take off after the "games" right before the war that showed an inability to govern. Pavlov is to blame for taking up a post for which, to put it mildly, he was not ready. After all, he could refuse, write a report, but did not write.
  • Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 6 October 2021 14: 21
    +1
    Pavlov did not withdraw the troops from the Belostotsky ledge, did not disperse the aircraft, did not cancel the plans for the summer exercises, as a result of which the artillery ended up in those areas that the Germans knew and destroyed it. Instead of defense, he fulfilled Moscow's directive to attack and thereby doomed the troops to destruction. He did not fully believe the intelligence data and reported to Stalin incorrect information. They shot him correctly ...
    1. Sergey-1950
      Sergey-1950 8 October 2021 10: 51
      -1
      Quote: Dzafdet
      Pavlov did not withdraw the troops from the Belostotsky ledge, did not disperse the aircraft, did not cancel the plans for the summer exercises, as a result of which the artillery ended up in those areas that the Germans knew and destroyed it. Instead of defense, he fulfilled Moscow's directive to attack and thereby doomed the troops to destruction. He did not fully believe the intelligence data and reported to Stalin incorrect information. They shot him correctly ...

      Didn't withdraw troops from the Bialystok salient WHEN? Until June 22nd? That is, contrary to the plan for the deployment of approved. General Staff? Are you out of your mind? Yes, for such arbitrariness, even now they will put up to the wall.

      Quote: Dzafdet
      ... did not cancel the summer exercise plans, ....

      ... these plans let him down ... the General Staff. Cancellation of them would be arbitrariness and an official crime.
      He could, however, take the initiative and propose to change the plan due to the tension on the border. But there was no guarantee to obtain consent from the General Staff, since the General Staff did not
      BELIEVED.

      Quote: Dzafdet
      ... did not disperse the planes ...

      because, like the General Staff and the NGOs, they did not believe in an imminent attack.

      Quote: Dzafdet
      Instead of defense, he fulfilled Moscow's directive to attack and thereby doomed the troops to destruction ...

      And this is generally a pearl. Have you even come into contact with the army? What does it mean not to follow an order? Can you imagine what they are doing with such a general? He was OBLIGED to carry out ANY order, even in spite of its complete absurdity. Or to declare the absurdity of this order. But then do it anyway. Without this, the army will turn into a discussion club.
      In war, it often happened, when divisions were ordered to advance and die, to delay the enemy's movement for just a few hours. When this made it possible to prevent the defeat of another two or three divisions. The absurdity of the order from the point of view of the front commander does not yet mean its meaninglessness from the point of view of the general situation. And any military man knows this.

      Quote: Dzafdet
      He did not fully believe the intelligence data and reported to Stalin incorrect information.

      The intelligence of the district has much less opportunities than the intelligence of the RU. Further, it is necessary to explain on whose data Stalin relied in the first place?
  • faterdom
    faterdom 6 October 2021 14: 29
    +2
    Quote: Arzt
    Yes, they all merged. They just shot one Pavlov for some reason.

    Pavlova - not one. At least with the chief of staff and chief of communications. For the loss of control, for which they are all personally responsible, not Stalin, not the system, but they are personally.
    They had to prepare to command the troops in the course of hostilities in any case ... By wire, radio, messengers, pigeons, motorcycles, flares, whatever ... Their role is to receive information and give some orders to the troops. But this was not there, there was no information, there was no intelligible guide.
    They answered for this, because no leadership is better than this, at least the initiative of the commanders of divisions and corps would not take away this empty space in the command link.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 6 October 2021 15: 28
    0
    And the troops were in the mousetrap of the Brest Fortress - was Stalin also to blame?
  • boris epstein
    boris epstein 6 October 2021 15: 33
    +1
    About DG Pavlov. "And the regiment is a cavalry, it has its own specifics, .."
    Many tank and mechanized commanders were cavalry in the past.
    "Or the non-withdrawal of troops from the Brest citadel, .."
    Most of the units of the 6th Oryol and 42 rifle divisions were withdrawn from the Brest fortress before June 22, 1941, and some of them were not in the fortress before the war, but were stationed in Kobrin and Zhabintsy. division-combat path. Both divisions emerged from the encirclement and continued to fight. The 6th Oryol division went through the whole war, participated in the defeat of Japan and had the honorary name 42th Orlovo-Khingan Red Banner Division, and the 6nd Infantry Division was disbanded due to heavy losses only after the battle of Moscow, in which it took an active part.
    The main thing that he was charged with was incorrect determination of the direction of the main attack of the Hoth's panzer group, as a result of which the anti-tank regiment from the reserve of the district was sent to an empty place and did not affect the course of the battle. the transfer of other troops.
    But regarding the strategic and tactical experience of using tank and mechanized troops, this is to the point. His Spanish experience hurt him. Spain is a mountainous country, the massive use of tank and mechanized troops is impossible.
  • kova1967
    kova1967 6 October 2021 16: 21
    +3
    You cannot justify incompetent warlords! Let's canoneize Vlasov. Let's translate into the face of the saints! He's for the Russian people! Why doesn't Pavlov refuse! they say not ready or lack of experience? Fear! What if they take it off! Zhukov and other military leaders were not afraid! Their losses were not small, but well-deserved victories!
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 6 October 2021 17: 22
    +3
    Someone had to be shot to excuse the disaster of 1941:
    or Zhukov (who made boilers for the Red Army for ten "Pavlovs"), or another high-ranking military commander.
    Zhukov did not want to shoot himself, and found others.
    1. ivan2022
      ivan2022 9 October 2021 06: 39
      +2
      Quote: voyaka uh
      Someone had to be shot to excuse the disaster of 1941:

      Someone had to be shot because in 1812 Moscow was surrendered to the French by September 15. ...... but for some reason they didn't shoot. Probably the idea of ​​a "catastrophe" was different then than it is now. Or maybe it is now someone should be accused of the fact that the country, even without a war, out of the blue?
  • Aleks45
    Aleks45 7 October 2021 02: 37
    0
    Yes, Pavlov in its pure form was a traitor, as the shoigus did not deploy the front, did not move units from the places of permanent deployment, was not staffed, even the Southwestern Front fought better with less forces
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 7 October 2021 12: 09
    0
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Quote: Pavel57
    Prudnikova talked a lot about the military's failure to comply with Directive 1.

    This directive of June 18 did not exist in nature.

    Here is the dispute about what existed. But many did not fulfill it.
    1. Sergey-1950
      Sergey-1950 11 October 2021 13: 43
      -1
      Quote: Pavel57
      Quote: Sergey-1950
      Quote: Pavel57
      Prudnikova talked a lot about the military's failure to comply with Directive 1.

      This directive of June 18 did not exist in nature.

      Here is the dispute about what existed. But many did not fulfill it.

      There was no such directive. Five years ago, it was believed that there was such a directive, since an order was found for the PribOVO to bring the district troops into increased combat readiness. On this basis, it was concluded that it was issued on the basis of some directive of the General Staff. But how many did not look for this mythical directive of the General Staff did not find it. We did not find the same orders in other western districts. Now most of the historians of the war believe that the found order for the PribOVO is an initiative of the district command.
  • RoTTor
    RoTTor 7 October 2021 14: 58
    +2
    I recommend, but only to personnel
    http://militera.lib.ru/docs/da/sov-new-1940/66.html

    There is no doubt that Pavlov is guilty and justly punished.
    And insinuations about his wrong military career and immaturity are nonsense!
    Read, for example, if our Soviet commanders do not like the biographies of Napoleon and the best Napoleonic marshals, many of whom, unlike Pavlov, “did not pass academies,” but, like him, had the wrong career path.

    1. RoTTor
      RoTTor 8 October 2021 22: 01
      +1
      From the same "VO":
      Jean Schramm became a general at 23, Napoleon Bonaparte at 24, Bartholomew Joubert at 26, Louis-Gabriel Suchet at 28. And Nicolas Davout at 34 was already a marshal.
      the French army needed experienced soldiers and officers. In just 5 years, Charles Pierre Augereau will become a divisional general.

      https://topwar.ru/187823-sharl-per-ozhero-put-ot-dezertira-do-marshala.html

      The biography of Shoigu, one of the best MOs, is also on the topic.
      So the author shouldn't blame Pavlov in vain.
  • Nafanya from the sofa
    Nafanya from the sofa 7 October 2021 17: 42
    +2
    Quote: Sergej1972
    In Khrushchev's memoirs, on the contrary, I was struck by the fact that in many places he spoke warmly enough about Stalin.

    If possible, then give quotes from Nikita, where he speaks well of J.V. Stalin.
    We may have read this book in different ways. In my opinion there about Stalin only full of feces.
  • kolyan-111-53
    kolyan-111-53 9 October 2021 11: 05
    0
    After reading the article, I concluded that he was an ordinary careerist and Stalin had nothing to do with it. In peacetime, it is more difficult for talented people to break through to high command posts, completely different qualities are important there. The fact that no suitable candidate was found in his place is hard to believe, he squeezed in there himself and there is nothing to justify him
  • Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 10 October 2021 07: 45
    -1
    If you calmly read the accusation to Pavlov, then to be honest, what did he do such a criminal there?
    I will say even more, all the charges could be brought against any commander of the district and the army. Simply, no one else was engaged with addiction.
    Pavlov, you see, he allowed the defeat of the armies of his front ...
    Unskillfully led the troops,
    handed out impossible orders,
    not caring about monitoring their implementation ...
    Allowed the defeat of the 6th MK, without any sense ...

    And now about the reasons for the defeat of the front (in my unenlightened opinion):
    First. And the main thing. Despite the fact that the inevitability of a war with Germany was recognized and prepared for it, there was no understanding when exactly when it might start. Historians now agree that an understanding of the PROBABLE start of the war only a few hours later appeared among the country's leadership on June 21, and then in the afternoon.
    So, at a meeting of the Politburo, it is decided to bring the troops to FULL READINESS. That is, including, to withdraw divisions to positions on the border. This event is described in Reflections and Memories. Everyone read it (hopefully). When I read this the first, second and third times, my blood boiled. The brain burst with indignation at the incredibly slow development and advancement of orders from the General Staff to the districts and then to the armies. All this was very similar to the sabotage of the NKO and the General Staff, to the deliberate delay in bringing the troops into a state of complete BG. After all, it was possible not to encrypt the order, but to speak in plain text about the threat of an attack and order them to take positions.
    But this could have been done if they had been 100% sure that there would definitely be a war. And if not? And if the order is intercepted by the enemy? Then the Germans could use their attack as the reason for their attack, to deliver a preemptive strike against the aggressor. That is, the striker would also have earned political points. Therefore, the secrecy of the transmission was scrupulously observed. And then what happened happened. The districts, due to the procedures for decrypting and then encrypting orders for the armies, simply did not have time to transmit the order before the attack began.

    And then the communication lines were also put out of action ... That is, the order could not have been physically delivered. And what did the receipt of an order by the command of the army give if it had no connection with the divisions?

    And this situation was everywhere where the Germans launched an offensive. Western OVO does not stand out against the general background.

    Second. The peculiarity of the ZOVO was that two divisions on the left flank were located ON THE BORDER BORDER, and mainly in the fortress. In the fortress there were 9000 people from the 6th and 42nd rifle divisions.
    The bulk of their artillery and vehicles perished in the fortress. It was considered that these divisions could leave the fortress three hours after receiving the order. Three hours. But they had to march along the border, for some 45 km. That is, for the whole day ... if they don't bomb and fire with artillery. And if there are, then the movement slows down to 1-2 km per hour. And no one will arrive at the position.
    This is easily illustrated by the fate of the 113th Rifle Division of the same unfortunate 4th Army. It was located on the right (northwestern) flank of the army and was located only 10 km from the border. She began to march along the border to turn around in her participation. Suddenly, naturally, unexpectedly, she received a powerful blow to the flank and was defeated in a fleeting battle. The division ceased to exist, only separate groups remained, which began to retreat and try to resist.
    If the covering division was 20-40 km from the border, then it was repeatedly bombed on the march and did not have time to occupy its area.
    That is, the flaw in the cover-up plan is evident. Instead of meeting the enemy sitting in the trenches, units of the Red Army went under bombs, suffering colossal casualties in men and especially in horse-drawn artillery. Simply, in the 4th Army of the ZOVO, two ill-fated divisions were sitting in a mousetrap. But the deployment of divisions and regiments! also agrees with the General Staff. The General Staff did not mind. Because I saw no danger. I did not see so much that I had no idea about the tank groups of the Germans all day on the 22nd.
    On the South-Western Front, the Germans reached Kiev by 11 July. In general, the pace of movement is comparable to that in Belarus. It was just that the Germans drove ONE tank wedge to the South-Western Front and they could not create a boiler similar to the Bialystok one. Rather, they could not without losing the pace of the offensive. But it was more important for them to reach the Dnieper and cut the SWF in two. They didn't succeed. But that is another story.
  • Sergey-1950
    Sergey-1950 10 October 2021 07: 50
    -1
    Pavlov, was accused of imitating command and control. Or rather, in giving orders that are impracticable and even without hope to bring them to the subordinates. There was a case. But I suspect ... he wasn't the only one doing this. It's just that no one has done research from that angle. And volumes can be written about giving orders, and above all by Gentab, which are obviously impossible.
  • Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 11 October 2021 07: 04
    +1
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Quote: Dzafdet
    Pavlov did not withdraw the troops from the Belostotsky ledge, did not disperse the aircraft, did not cancel the plans for the summer exercises, as a result of which the artillery ended up in those areas that the Germans knew and destroyed it. Instead of defense, he fulfilled Moscow's directive to attack and thereby doomed the troops to destruction. He did not fully believe the intelligence data and reported to Stalin incorrect information. They shot him correctly ...

    Didn't withdraw troops from the Bialystok salient WHEN? Until June 22nd? That is, contrary to the plan for the deployment of approved. General Staff? Are you out of your mind? Yes, for such arbitrariness, even now they will put up to the wall.

    Quote: Dzafdet
    ... did not cancel the summer exercise plans, ....

    ... these plans let him down ... the General Staff. Cancellation of them would be arbitrariness and an official crime.
    He could, however, take the initiative and propose to change the plan due to the tension on the border. But there was no guarantee to obtain consent from the General Staff, since the General Staff did not
    BELIEVED.

    Quote: Dzafdet
    ... did not disperse the planes ...

    because, like the General Staff and the NGOs, they did not believe in an imminent attack.

    Quote: Dzafdet
    Instead of defense, he fulfilled Moscow's directive to attack and thereby doomed the troops to destruction ...

    And this is generally a pearl. Have you even come into contact with the army? What does it mean not to follow an order? Can you imagine what they are doing with such a general? He was OBLIGED to carry out ANY order, even in spite of its complete absurdity. Or to declare the absurdity of this order. But then do it anyway. Without this, the army will turn into a discussion club.
    In war, it often happened, when divisions were ordered to advance and die, to delay the enemy's movement for just a few hours. When this made it possible to prevent the defeat of another two or three divisions. The absurdity of the order from the point of view of the front commander does not yet mean its meaninglessness from the point of view of the general situation. And any military man knows this.

    Quote: Dzafdet
    He did not fully believe the intelligence data and reported to Stalin incorrect information.

    The intelligence of the district has much less opportunities than the intelligence of the RU. Further, it is necessary to explain on whose data Stalin relied in the first place?


    It's all fine language. Why did he organize warehouses near the border? Why was the Navy alerted and repelled enemy attacks, but Pavlov was not? Why did the construction of concrete lanes start at all airfields at once? Why were all the planes standing in a heap and without disguise? Why on other fronts the deployment of headquarters for the conduct of hostilities began on June 18, and Pavlov did not even move? Continue questions?
    Troops could be withdrawn from the ledge under the pretext of exercises. The order is not to be carried out motivated by the lack of communication with the troops. She didn't exist ...
    1. Sergey-1950
      Sergey-1950 11 October 2021 13: 51
      -1
      Quote: Dzafdet


      It's all fine language. Why did he organize warehouses near the border? Why was the Navy alerted and repelled enemy attacks, but Pavlov was not? Why did the construction of concrete lanes start at all airfields at once? Why were all the planes standing in a heap and without disguise? Why on other fronts the deployment of headquarters for the conduct of hostilities began on June 18, and Pavlov did not even move? Continue questions?
      Troops could be withdrawn from the ledge under the pretext of exercises. The order is not to be carried out motivated by the lack of communication with the troops. She didn't exist ...


      Oh ... and you wrote so much ...
      So, in order.
      The Navy did not use NK Svyaz telegraph wires. Explain further?

      Warehouses on the border, actually not at the very border, but somewhat deeper ... So they were going to fight. Therefore, warehouses, and in warehouses ammunition, food and property in general. Would you like there to be no warehouses at all?
      The warehouses could not be captured by enemy tactical units. And yet they had no others. According to RM.

      Everyone began to concretize the airfield at once, because there is little time for concreting them - in April it rains early, and in September it can also be late rains.
      Although, possessing the post-knowledge, it was necessary to concrete no more than half of the airfields and start on others after the complete completion of work on the objects of the first stage.

      The planes were not in a bunch, and were not scattered around the perimeter. This is the undoubted jamb of the district command.

      Only a person with the gift of clairvoyance could withdraw the troops from the ledge.
      Even on June 23 and 24, no one realized the disaster. Pavlov's actions indicate that, in his opinion, the catastrophe was not planned. He tried to correct his mistakes made on the eve of the war. As a result of which, the enemy penetrated far and quickly and it was difficult to explain to the "dad". This is how a student corrects a three in a diary for a five.

      This lack of understanding of the situation and threats further exacerbated the situation.
  • Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 13 October 2021 15: 43
    0
    Quote: Sergey-1950
    Quote: Dzafdet


    It's all fine language. Why did he organize warehouses near the border? Why was the Navy alerted and repelled enemy attacks, but Pavlov was not? Why did the construction of concrete lanes start at all airfields at once? Why were all the planes standing in a heap and without disguise? Why on other fronts the deployment of headquarters for the conduct of hostilities began on June 18, and Pavlov did not even move? Continue questions?
    Troops could be withdrawn from the ledge under the pretext of exercises. The order is not to be carried out motivated by the lack of communication with the troops. She didn't exist ...


    Oh ... and you wrote so much ...
    So, in order.
    The Navy did not use NK Svyaz telegraph wires. Explain further?

    Warehouses on the border, actually not at the very border, but somewhat deeper ... So they were going to fight. Therefore, warehouses, and in warehouses ammunition, food and property in general. Would you like there to be no warehouses at all?
    The warehouses could not be captured by enemy tactical units. And yet they had no others. According to RM.

    Everyone began to concretize the airfield at once, because there is little time for concreting them - in April it rains early, and in September it can also be late rains.
    Although, possessing the post-knowledge, it was necessary to concrete no more than half of the airfields and start on others after the complete completion of work on the objects of the first stage.

    The planes were not in a bunch, and were not scattered around the perimeter. This is the undoubted jamb of the district command.

    Only a person with the gift of clairvoyance could withdraw the troops from the ledge.
    Even on June 23 and 24, no one realized the disaster. Pavlov's actions indicate that, in his opinion, the catastrophe was not planned. He tried to correct his mistakes made on the eve of the war. As a result of which, the enemy penetrated far and quickly and it was difficult to explain to the "dad". This is how a student corrects a three in a diary for a five.

    This lack of understanding of the situation and threats further exacerbated the situation.



    it is clear that Pavlov did not correspond to his position. So the assistants were not far away.

    [media=http://https://www.mvestnik.ru/mvfoto/2021/07/07/unichtozhennye_sovetskie_samolety_na_aerodromah_u_zapadnyh_granic_sssr_22_06_1941g.jpghttps://www.mvestnik.ru/mvfoto/2021/07/07/unichtozhennye_sovetskie_samolety_na_aerodromah_u_zapadnyh_granic_sssr_22_06_1941g.jpg]
  • gsev
    gsev 13 October 2021 18: 27
    0
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    In 1937, thieves felled forests and built roads

    At that time, all successful aircraft designers were sitting. Given that in the 1930s, Soviet designers put forward about a hundred competing projects for the glider competition, it seemed that the Petlyakovs, Tupolevs, Korolevs and Polikarpovs had someone to replace them. Now, even for a position in Roscosmos, they were able to find a person known only for work in journalism. And thieves in 1937 and now to catch and plant is laborious and troublesome. Even under Stalin, the Ministry of Internal Affairs still fails to put all the real thieves, plunderers and embezzlers in jail. I was told that before the war, a Stalinist comrade-in-arms managed to buy an airplane with a perpetual electric motor in the west and tried to instruct Kapitsa to introduce this design to replace internal combustion engines with perpetual ones that did not require aviation gasoline. He got away with it, just as Gref gets away with using offshore companies or Serdyukov's girlfriends embezzlement in the Moscow region.