Why do we need a myth about literate tsarist Russia

Poster: "Light and knowledge for the people!"

Citizens who were educated in the USSR knew from school that the majority of the population of tsarist Russia was illiterate, and the Bolsheviks who came to power after the Great October Socialist Revolution developed and implemented a program of general education.
However, after "perestroika" and the victory of "democracy" they stopped talking about it and began to tell children about the "bloody red commissars" and "Russia, which we have lost." Among these stories is the myth of the high level of education in pre-revolutionary Russia.

What was the situation with education in tsarist Russia

In general, it should be noted that the level of education of the population was consistently raised in tsarist Russia. The empire needed officers, engineers, architects, scientists, doctors and skilled workers. Higher education in the Russian Empire under Tsar Nicholas II, in general, was the best in Europe (in terms of the number of students and quality). However, it is worth noting that higher education was received mainly by representatives of the upper social strata - children of nobles, military men, officials, the bourgeoisie, and the intelligentsia. That is, those who received primary and secondary education and could continue their education.

The budget of the Ministry of Public Education grew rapidly. In addition, the schools were financed by the military, the Synod, the zemstvos and the city. The successes in education were obvious: there were 1896 thousand primary schools in 78, and over 1914 thousand in 119; the number of gymnasiums (secondary educational institutions) in 1892 was 239, and in 1914 - 2300; the number of students in 1896 was 3,8 million, in 1914 - 9,7 million; the number of teachers in 1896 was 114 thousand, in 1914 - 280 thousand; the number of students in 1890 - 12,5 thousand, in 1914 - 127 thousand

According to the first complete census of the population of Russia in 1897, 22,7% of the literate were identified in the country (together with Finland). By 1914, about a third of the population was literate to one degree or another. But this is on average. There were more literate people in Russian Poland, Finland, the European part of Russia, and in cities. In Turkestan and the Caucasus, the number of illiterates could be up to 90%, the low level was in rural areas. A person who could write his last name could also be literate. Women had a low level of education. A significant part of the children did not study anywhere at all.

Thus, education in tsarist Russia developed, and during the reign of Nicholas II at a very rapid pace. This was due to the need to modernize the country, general global trends. There were objective difficulties: a huge territory, a large population (then we were second only to China and India), underdeveloped national outskirts, where slavery existed until recently, tribal traditions dominated, etc. The myth of the "hopelessly backward", "dark" Russian empire and the "prison of peoples" was created by the enemies of Russia, the Westernizers, among whom there were also internationalist revolutionaries.

N.P.Bogdanov-Belsky. "Verbal counting. In the folk school of S. A. Rachinsky ", 1895

The myth of literate tsarist Russia

Obviously, if not for the world war, revolution and the Civil War, the level of education of the population of the Russian Empire also increased significantly. However, the new monarchists and supporters of "Russia We Lost" go further and argue that Russia was literate before 1917.

For example, Bishop Tikhon (Shevkunov) of Yegoryevsk during the lecture "The February Revolution: What Was It?" of September 3, 2017 in Yekaterinburg reported:

“In 1920, the newly minted Ministry of Education, which was then called the People's Commissariat for Education, decided to study what literacy was in the Soviets, the then new Soviet Russia. And a census of the literate population was carried out in this very backward, illiterate, dark Russia. 1920 is the third year of the Civil War. We understand that most schools do not work, devastation, paying teachers are always huge problems, and so on. So, it turned out that teenagers from 12 to 16 years old are 86% literate. "

Accordingly, the conclusion is drawn: these children were educated back in tsarist Russia.

What does the 1920 census really show?

There was no age division at all in the preliminary census results. It provides the state of education: the number of educational institutions, students (5,9 million). Also, the total number of citizens of the RSFSR and Ukraine (excluding the regions where the Civil War continues), it was 131,5 million people. In later documents of the Central Statistical Office of 1922-1923, the literacy of the population according to the results of the 1920 census is indicated - more than 37%. There is a breakdown by age, but not marked by Bishop Tikhon from 12 to 16 years old, but from 8 to 15 years old. 49% of literate children aged 8-15 years. It should be remembered that during the 1920 census, the criteria for assessing literacy were broadened as much as possible - those who could read syllables and write their surname in their native or Russian language were considered literate.

How many children were there at the time?

The average values ​​of the modern period are more than a third of the population. Then the birth rate was much higher, the population was much younger. In a more accurate 1926 census of the USSR, in which there are age groups, from 147 million people under 19 years old - 71,3 million. The census presents age groups from 10 to 14 and from 15 to 19 years. That is, it is impossible to calculate how many children there were at the age of 12-16. Summing up the two groups, we get 33,9 million people, of which 20,3 million were literate. This is two-thirds, and this is a broader age group, not 86%. Moreover, this is data from 1926, not 1920.

Thus, the Bolsheviks got a heavy legacy. They had not only to create first a universal 4-year education (then 7 and 10 years), but also to conduct an educational program among adults and at an accelerated pace. So, about 40 million illiterates passed through the educational program, and by the beginning of the 40s, literacy among the population under the age of 50 was over 90%. The problem of illiteracy in the country was practically solved. The Bolsheviks were able to do what the tsars had not done before them: they made a qualitative leap, not only caught up with, but also overtook all the advanced countries of the West. The Russian school became the best in the world, hence all the subsequent successes of the USSR in science, technology, space, atom, military affairs, etc. It is worth remembering that the best traditions of the Russian classical (pre-revolutionary) school were fully inherited by the Soviet school as well.

N. Bogdanov-Belsky. "Sunday Reading in a Country School", 1895

"Russia We Lost"

Why did they create and support the myth of the high level of education in the Russian Empire?

Up to 80% educated. The fact is that a caste-estate society has been formed in the Russian Federation for three decades. Where there are the successful and the rich, for whom Russia is a country of opportunities, and everyone else is the poor, the poor and the losers, who supposedly do not want to develop and do business. A caste of "new nobles" who are completely satisfied with such a state of affairs when 90% of all the wealth of the country belongs to 2-3% of the population. It is for this caste that the myth of "Russia we have lost" is being formed. Like, everything was fine, beautiful, decorous and noble. But the "bloody Bolsheviks" came and destroyed this paradise.

They prefer not to voice the facts that the Romanovs themselves led Russia to the catastrophe of 1917. As well as the fact that the February Revolution and the destruction of tsarist Russia were not the work of the Red Commissars and Red Guards, but of the then Russian elite, including representatives of the Romanov dynasty, the aristocracy, generals, the highest bureaucracy, the Duma, and leading political parties. They are also silent about the fact that the Bolsheviks saved historical Russia from complete destruction and the seizure of its lands by other powers. That the Bolsheviks recreated the Russian statehood (in the form of the Soviet one) and this was a stage in the qualitative historical ascent of Russia, and not a dead-end path of development.

Therefore, all the "reformers" from the 90s to the present so consistently destroyed and optimized the Soviet-Russian school.

"You don't need a knife for a fool,
You will lie to him with three boxes -
And do with him what you like! "

After all, we are witnessing a gradual return to the past. Nizam will be enough to be able to use digital devices (to be digital idiots), and classical and high-quality education will remain only for the "elite".

Soviet poster: "Everyone - to the library!"

Comments

[Pessimist22]

We must again hang castes and estates on lampposts so that the people do not interfere with their lives.

[out of habit]

Again?!! This is where and when after something like this, earthly paradise came?

[Far B]

And there has never been an earthly paradise at all. Takshta ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: out of habit

Pessimist22 We need castes and estates again hang on lamppostsso that the people do not interfere with their lives.

Again?!! This is where and when after something like this, earthly paradise came?

what touches these lovers of hanging is their holy conviction that he will hang, and not hang out on a lantern.

Life teaches nothing ...

[paul3390]

And we are already practically being hanged. Slowly, year after year, for 30 years. Taking away all the social achievements of Soviet power and depriving at least some hope for a better future.

By the way - are you sure that you and your descendants in the newly-born incarnation of the Republic of Ingushetia will certainly be nobles, and not a serf cattle?

[EvilLion]

How often do you take a new car? And the height of the house in the garden, and what is the fence around? And how often do you go to rest at the border?

What achievements have you been robbed of? That's specific and according to the list.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Olgovich

what touches these lovers of hanging is their sacred conviction that he will hang, and not dangle on a lantern.

More than ever, but here I agree with you 100% ..

[ABC-schutze]

Judging by the font, you are "touched" on behalf of the lantern? ..

[bk0010]

Quote: Olgovich

what touches these lovers of hanging is their sacred conviction that he will hang, and not dangle on a lantern.
Life teaches nothing

So what? For not everyone, fear for one's own skin is stronger than striving for a goal or for revenge.

[Looking for]

the English, French and Russian revolutions suggest otherwise.

[EvilLion]

It was in this that the whites also believed that we were now outweighing the boor, but ended up either in exile or in the grave.

[bk0010]

Quote: out of habit

Again?!! This is where and when after something like this, earthly paradise came

Here the goal is not to build an earthly paradise, but to take revenge on the creators of hell on earth and prevent them from achieving their goals.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: out of habit

Again?!! This is where and when after something like this, earthly paradise came?

In Cambodia)
Only there, in the absence of pillars, they bluntly chopped with hoes. Adjusted for the agrarian essence, so to speak.

[Ingenegr]

Paradise is not needed. It is necessary that there be no hell. Not for everyone, but for the majority. Being an illiterate and wordless brute is like a waiting room before entering hell, even if the condemned person himself does not realize it. The wisdom of power should be in the exclusion of reasons that allow thinking about the need

Quote: Pessimist22

to hang castes and estates on lampposts so that the people do not interfere with their lives.

[Bar1]

Up to 80% educated. The fact is that a caste-estate society has been formed in the Russian Federation for three decades. Where there are successful and rich people, for whom Russia is a country of opportunities, and everyone else is beggars, poor and losers, allegedly unwilling to develop and do business

Yes it is.

[Moskovit]

Well, go ahead, hang it up, or should someone do it for you? Hangers f.i.g. o.v.y. They cannot put things in order in their entrance or yard, but they are sent to the wall at once.

[Alexander Kopychev]

We must again hang castes and estates on lampposts

For some reason, most commentators take these words of yours literally ... And the point is not in a certain bloodlust, but in JUSTICE... How long can you drink blood already?

[paul3390]

How long can you drink blood already?

Duc - until they drink dry. Or - we won't release theirs to them ..

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Alexander Kopychev

For some reason, most commentators take these words of yours literally ..

Come on, for God's sake. These champions of justice 'at any cost' are one step from allegory to literalism.

Quote: Alexander Kopychev

And the point is not a certain bloodlust

In her, in her. The crowd is demanding a show. Tastes and methods, of course, have changed slightly since the days of the old woman who dragged brushwood to the fire of Jan Hus, but in general - the 'lanterns' are not a metaphor at all.

[samarin1969]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Quote: Alexander Kopychev

For some reason, most commentators take these words of yours literally ..

Come on, for God's sake. These champions of justice 'at any cost' are one step from allegory to literalism.

Quote: Alexander Kopychev

And the point is not a certain bloodlust

In her, in her. The crowd is demanding a show. Tastes and methods, of course, have changed slightly since the days of the old woman who dragged brushwood to the fire of Jan Hus, but in general - the 'lanterns' are not a metaphor at all.

Very true comments.
The introduction of "universal education" instead of "global average" literacy rates is a dubious reason for the revolution. Moreover, the myth-making of the possibility of expelling scoundrels from power and "social justice" is something like "land on three whales." The very nature of man excludes the reality of "socialism".

[Alexander Kopychev]

You have forgotten to remind about the "child's tear". Are tears allowed outside the revolution? I, like you, are opposed to all violence ... But what are these Haspada doing with the People and the Country - is this not violence? After all, they seriously already believe that Russia is They! And little people are a simple resource, subsoil ... Until they start to study enlightenment and educationuntil they stop creating plebs, smerds and calves around them, then let them be afraid that God forbid!!! We are discussing the problems of education in this article, aren't we?

[Fitter65]

Quote: Pessimist22

We must again hang castes and estates on lampposts so that the people do not interfere with their lives.

And where was that when they were hanging on the lampposts, those who interfere with the lives of the people?

[Basil50]

Alexander
They were hung on lampposts * by the knights of the white movement *, they really wanted to return either * the father-tsar *, or to sell RUSSIA at a higher price. The Bolsheviks and the country defended and then developed the WHOLE country.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Vasily50

They were hung on lampposts * by the knights of the white movement *, they really wanted to return either * the father-tsar *, or to sell RUSSIA at a higher price. The Bolsheviks and the country defended and then developed the WHOLE country.

What do you mean, I just read during perestroika that the Bolsheviks loved this, though without concrete facts and evidence, but here everything is clear anyway. By the way, it is not strange even in the days of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union about the fact that whites hung on lampposts, too, did not write ... True, during my childhood, which I spent in the Novosibirsk region, it was more terrible to curse a Kolchakite than a fascist with the word. Well, these are legends of deep antiquity, now about Kolchak, the executioner of Siberia, and monuments are being erected, and films about his blinkers are shown. I don’t know how it is now, but in the early 2000s, there was beer in Irkutsk - "Admiral Kolchak". And what did the Bolsheviks do? Well, they did not let the country enslave, they built the Economy, They trained the people, They defended their country, from brown Europe (by the way, the color was correct, but now they are blue), They returned Sakhalin and the Kuriles, then that Kolya No. 2 in 1904 lost, In 1945 they returned everything , even with + all that in 1916 №2 looked through. But there was a replacement for Kolya, Misha and Borya ... But Joseph, after all, he raised the country, and brought it to the first roles .........

[Basil50]

It is surprising that so many years have passed since * the fight against illiteracy * almost universal secondary education, but there are those who cannot read. Those who had * a stigma in the gun * from the spilled blood rushed into emigration, they wrote about their life in the Crimea and how they hung everyone on the streets and along the roads who were suspected of sympathy * SOVDEPIYA *. Emigrants wrote a lot about Kolchak and the Merkulov brothers, whose differences were only in the owners, there, too, about executions and the hanged. About the fact that they flogged everyone in a row, regardless of gender and age, they wrote about the greatest mercy to the cattle. Read it, you can try on the described situations for yourself.

[Time traveller]

It is rather unwise to blame Kolchak just for raping the workers and even flogging the teachers for sympathizing with the Bolsheviks. This is a vulgar defense of democracy, these are Kolchak's stupid accusations. Kolchak acts in the ways that he finds. But how does it support itself economically? He holds on to free trade, he goes for it, he is supported for it

(c) V. I. Lenin. PSS, vol. 38, p. 335
Lenin condemned the Whites not for the terror, which the Reds practiced not on a smaller scale and terrible degree, but for the fact that Kolchak and the rest of the Whites "went for freedom of trade," and at the first stage also for the Constituent Assembly with general elections. While the Reds - for the broadest nationalization (not only factories, but also bank deposits, urban housing, currency, precious metals, etc.), as well as for the dictatorship of the proletariat, which at that time in Russia was no more than 15% of the rest of the population ... Therefore, in the Constitution of the RSFSR of 1918, the Reds stipulated that one vote of a worker is equal to five votes of peasants. And the former tsarist officials, officers, priests, etc. were generally deprived of the right to vote.

[RMT]

I began to read this constitution. To speed up the process, in which article is one worker equated to five peasants?

[Time traveller]

Chapter six of the Constitution read: "The All-Russian Congress of Soviets is made up of representatives of city councils at the rate of 1 deputy per 25 voters and representatives of the provincial congresses of Soviets at the rate of 000 deputy per 1 inhabitants." In other words, from 125 thousand peasants 000 representative was sent to the congress, and from the same 125 thousand citizens, i.e. workers - five people. The regional and provincial congresses of Soviets were formed in the same proportion: 1 worker's vote was equal to 125 rural residents' votes.

[RMT]

Thank you. A very clever move, formally all are equal, but some are smoother.

[Babylon]

Where did you get this so-called. a quote? I was not too lazy and checked, and so, these words in Lenin's PSS in v. 38 p.335 are not, from the word at all

[Time traveller]

There is a typo. T. 38, p. 355
It is easier to drop a search engine on the phrase "It is rather unwise to blame Kolchak just for the fact that he was raping the workers."
So, by the way, his whole speech is very interesting, because in it he "explains" why it is necessary to keep the workers, even if they do not work, at the expense of the peasants.

[Babylon]

Found. Definitely an interesting performance. Only there it is a question of the strategy and tactics of the struggle against capital, in which the proletariat should play the main role, and that during this struggle there can be no economic equality between workers and peasants. As for me, the quote is taken out of context.

[Time traveller]

and that during this struggle there can be no economic equality between workers and peasants.

Economic equality between workers and peasants, as small, according to Lenin, owners, cannot exist at any time.
And in this work, Lenin teaches that during a civil war there can be no political equality... Hence the equating of five peasant votes with one worker's vote. Hence the discontent of the peasants with the Bolsheviks. Hence the need to suppress this discontent by sending to the villages "a kind of punitive expeditions" (c) Sverdlov. "Tasks of the Soviets in the Village". Hence, it is "rather unwise to criticize Kolchak" only for terror, because the Bolsheviks themselves used it.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Vasily50

They were hung on lampposts * by the knights of the white movement *,

Come on, everyone was good. And the 'commissars in dusty helmets' are also the same hang-ups, like the gold-run bastards. Don't lie to yourself, revolutionary romantic.

[carstorm 11]

The point is that nothing will stop there. Rich people? To the wall. Then the middle class get used up because the car is more expensive. Then get to simply educated people because they are smarter. 17 year in all its glory but much worse. Estates were and will be. As if there were not enough of them in the Union. The difference with the 17th year will be only in one thing - they will drive the country into the Stone Age and that's it. Do you really think that one hundred Russian millionaires under 30 who have risen to IT will find someone to quickly replace it? Now, not a hundred years ago. A couple of years of lag and that's it. This is the case in almost all areas of life. Or will those companies that finally provide the country with their food, save it?))) Yeah. Apparently everyone here thinks that these are rural farmers who work this way ...

[Doliva63]

Quote: carstorm 11

The point is that nothing will stop there. Rich people? To the wall. Then the middle class get used up because the car is more expensive. Then get to simply educated people because they are smarter. 17 year in all its glory but much worse. Estates were and will be. As if there were not enough of them in the Union. The difference with the 17th year will be only in one thing - they will drive the country into the Stone Age and that's it. Do you really think that one hundred Russian millionaires under 30 who have risen to IT will find someone to quickly replace it? Now, not a hundred years ago. A couple of years of lag and that's it. This is the case in almost all areas of life. Or will those companies that finally provide the country with their food, save it?))) Yeah. Apparently everyone here thinks that these are rural farmers who work this way ...

You would like to tighten up literacy - in the light of the article it is very relevant And there, you look, and questions will disappear

[carstorm 11]

I just write from the pipe and it's just too lazy to check, as I will always switch the keyboard) the meaning to convey to me is much more important) who often communicates with me knows this fact)

[your1970]

Quote: carstorm 11

Apparently everyone here thinks that these are rural farmers who work this way ...

The trouble is that the farmers will have to do it too .... "To the Mogilev province" ...
Just because they are satraps
- the collective farm land was seized ...
And there are no peasants left in the villages - and we will still be left without food.

[Trapperxnumx]

Well, these are the "proponents" of changes, apparently, and will go to the village, to feed the people.
Or do you think that they will demand food for their loved ones, as "the founders of change" and "happiness of the people's creators." Well, the corresponding special stores, special resorts, special sanatoriums ... I've already seen this somewhere ...

[gsev]

Quote: carstorm 11

Estates were and will be. As if they were not enough in the Union.

The presence of estates is a pretext for stagnation and degradation. If a smart person does not have the opportunity to realize himself in society to the detriment of the golden prince from a powerful or wealthy family, then the company will make a decision that is far from optimal and will lose in the competition. Or the state. Or the people. And the loser, by the rule of natural selection, must die out and make way for the more successful ones under the sun. 50 years ago there were 2-3 Chinese for every Russian, today there are more than ten. Normal estate can manifest itself in the genes of smart people and the benefits of children of gifted successful parents who have received talents from their ancestors and can benefit from their experience, culture or advice. Moreover, often successful dynasties of scientists in the USSR and Russia did not get rich thanks to this.

[Sergej1972]

The ratio of Russians and Han people 50 years ago was about 1 to 7-8, now it is 1 to 10. Due to the very low birth rate among both Russians and Han people, this proportion will continue in the future. You have probably forgotten that since 1979 the PRC has pursued a policy of limiting the birth rate.

[Ptolemy Lag]

Is there a middle class in Russia? He's already been blown away

[SERGE ANT]

For three decades, a caste-estate society has been formed in the Russian Federation.

That's right, and Bishop Tikhon (Shevkunov) of Yegoryevsk is one of the apologists of such a society. They sleep and see that everything was as before the seventeenth, when

everything was fine, beautiful, decorous and noble.

[Pessimist22]

The main task of all the churches was one and the same: to impress the poor serfs that for them there is no happiness on earth, it is destined for them in heaven, and that hard labor for someone else's uncle is a charitable thing.
Maksim Gorky.

[SERGE ANT]

“The powerlessness of the exploited classes in the struggle against the exploiters inevitably gives rise to faith in a better afterlife, just as the powerlessness of the savage in the struggle with nature gives rise to faith in gods, devils, miracles, etc. Religion teaches humility and patience in earthly life, consoling the hope of a heavenly reward. And for those who live by other people's labor, religion teaches charity in earthly life, offering them a very cheap excuse for their entire exploitative existence and selling tickets to heavenly well-being at a reasonable price. Religion is the opium of the people. Religion is a kind of spiritual fuzz, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demands for a life worthy of a human being. "
VI Lenin.

[Doliva63]

How not to twist, but Ilyich was right in almost everything!

[Frank Muller]

You know, history once again confirms that Rusyans prefer sobriety to booze - both bodily, intoxicating, intoxicating, and spiritual. Look how many churches and churches have been built according to Mother Russia. Almost at every step there are chapels and prayer alleys. As grandfather Shchukar said from Virgin Soil Upturned: “Lerigia has stuck!”. For such undertakings, funds are found - both state-owned and "donated" by the moneybags. But what about? It is much easier to manage those who obediently believe in the truth of what the "masters of the world" are doing than those seeking justice and seeking social harmony.

[Boris55]

Quote: Pessimist22

there is no happiness on earth, it is prepared for them in heaven

The priests are lying. People themselves must build a paradise on Earth, as in heaven.

Our Father who art in heaven!
Hallowed be thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven;

[Pessimist22]

Freedom sower is a desert,
I went out early, to the star;
A clean and innocent hand
In the enslaved reins
Threw a life-giving seed -
But I lost only time,
Good thoughts and labors ...

Ride, peaceful people!
You will not be awakened by the call.
Why herds of gifts of freedom?
They should be cut or cut.
Their inheritance from generation to generation
Yarmo with rattles and scourge.
A.S.Pushkin.

[parathyron]

Do not the godless affirm the Kingdom of God on earth in your opinion? Those for whom the earth is large, and the Sky is small, can only plant their crazy will.

[Grim Reaper]

Quote: Boris55

Quote: Pessimist22

there is no happiness on earth, it is prepared for them in heaven

The priests are lying. People themselves must build a paradise on Earth, as in heaven.

Our Father who art in heaven!
Hallowed be thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven;

You did a good job.
Yes, the meaning is preserved, but "the devil begins with little things" Especially in church texts, which, due to the discrepancy of one word, led to military conflicts.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: SERGE ant

For three decades, a caste-estate society has been formed in the Russian Federation.
That's right, and Bishop Tikhon (Shevkunov) of Yegoryevsk is one of the apologists of such a society. They sleep and see that everything was as before the seventeenth, when

Don't write nonsense. Such a society was successfully created in the USSR, where the place of the nobles and aristocrats with great success was taken by the party nomenklatura, who had access to all earthly goods and were often not responsible for their tricks. And in 1991 they just legalized it all. Or did all those who were leaders from small to large fell from Mars? Everyone grew up immediately, they were in the party and served the great cause of Lenin.
And then ... 30 years 30 years ...

[anjey]

and classical and high-quality education will remain only for the “elite”.

That's just also "abroad", in Cambridge and Oxford, this elite (agents of influence) will finally make Russia a colony of the West, beggar, illiterate and backward, so there is really a "stick of inequality" with two ends. And sow the grain of revolution on this soil can easily be the same notorious West, which is waging a constant war to destroy Russian statehood, and without a new Lenin and the Party, Russia will surely plunge into chaos.

[antivirus]

the main thing to the article - it is critical in relation to that "goodness" up to 17g ", but the older generation - illiterates should also be taken into account. literacy had to be considered average, taking into account the older generation. . gramophone, radio gave food for thought, hiring and dismissal in compliance with the rights. and so on and so on.

the average medial level of knowledge - IN THE STORY OF THE HISTORY GOES, DOESN'T TROUGHT IN THE LISTED ON WAGE.
30 YEARS BEFORE NIK2 IT WAS NECESSARY TO GIVE EDUCATION - IT'S ALDR 2 TO BE GUILTY OF REVOLUTIONS AND OUR LAGGING IN THE 20TH CENTURY. The whole class of nobles is to blame for the failure of RI. The feeders turned out to be.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: antivirus

30 YEARS BEFORE NIK2 IT WAS NECESSARY TO GIVE EDUCATION - THIS ALDR 2 IS TO BE GUILTY OF REVOLUTIONS AND OUR LAGGING IN THE 20TH CENTURY.

All my own observations and assessments of the historical processes in Russia lead to a similar conclusion. Unfortunately the wine of Alexander II is decisive here. What was done under Nicholas II is just an attempt to correct all these omissions.

[antivirus]

more to blame Nick 1 .. he had to create a base. it was for the ruling classes. a narrow layer of the elite. less than the servants of the elite of Western Europe.
failure in this “chosenness” is not enough for a huge country. and not evenly - are Poland and Astrakhan equal in astronomy knowledge? etc. and how can Irkutsk and Khabarovsk compare with the cosmopolitan Odessa and St. Petersburg, and the villages of Vologda and Ural?

[Sunstorm]

"What for?" and "Why the eternal myth about the backward tsarist Russia?" (Mr. Samsonov very correctly draws the parallel between Scyla and Charybdis).
1) In RI, education developed rapidly (yes, of course, for the wealthy, but the poor were also taught, and the fact that higher education is not needed 100% of the population is the reality of these days)
2) Up to a third of the population in the Republic of Ingushetia is literate (30% + in a huge agrarian country and see point 1, education is developing and the number is growing)
3) In the Republic of Ingushetia there is a process of industrialization (construction of factories, railways, etc. ... but many will foaming at the mouth to prove that without the Bolsheviks there is neither one nor the other).


In general, I am in favor of remembering the past, and not hanging labels. Everyone has the right to draw their own conclusions.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Interestingly, in Japan in the XNUMXth century, literacy was somewhere at the Russian level. And at the end of the century, illiteracy was eliminated. Above. Without revolutions and hanging on poles. And for some reason in the Russian elite there was a conviction that the literacy of the people would certainly push them to revolt. M. b. even this confidence was not false - it was too painful for the elite to get drunk at the national expense.

[Far B]

In the sense - without revolutions ??? And what is Meiji?

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Comparable to VOSR? The Meiji "revolution" is a summit coup. The consequences are impressive, though. But there were no mass hangings and executions.

[Far B]

A change in social formation is a revolution in any case. Be it in favor of the bourgeoisie or socialism. The Japanese woman was also shaking at that time - only on the way.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

There was some kind of interesting change in the formation - the transition from feudalism to capitalism under the leadership of enlightened feudal lords. However, before our very eyes, China has passed from "supposedly socialism" to overt capitalism under the leadership of the communists.

[paul3390]

But there were no mass hangings and executions.

Yes? For example, does the name Saigo Takamori tell you anything?

[Sergey Sfiedu]

The scale of repression and civil war is insignificant in comparison with the Russian or French, or even English revolutions.

[paul3390]

The people there are too law-abiding .. The Emperor said to jump - that means everyone jumped. But even in Japan, it was not without excesses .. The Satsuma uprising is simply the largest and most famous.

[saigon]

The summit coup with the breakdown of age-old traditions of relations, not badly so spiced with blood and death.
Children of the gods are generally very secretive people and do not like to put the truth about their country on public display.

[ABC-schutze]

Actually, after the "Japanese", and before the Great October, there was also a "dress rehearsal". The crowned mediocrity, however, did not have enough brains, neither from the first nor from the second, to draw correct and timely conclusions. The Soviet power, the FIRST thing, proclaimed PEACE, LAND (IN THE OWNERSHIP OF THE WHOLE PEOPLE, and not only the "peasants") and DEMANDED (through the mouth of Lenin), from the youth, the FIRST BUSINESS - TO LEARN. Yes, "communism", meaning by this - "and master the entire amount of knowledge accumulated by mankind" ... Who else, BEFORE Soviet power, to the PEOPLE with such an appeal? .. AND ALL THE CONDITIONS FOR FREE FOR LEARNING STUDIES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE STATE ? ,, Peter the Great? .. Yes ... But he used a STICK to send lazy boyar fools, "volunteers" and other "ignoramuses" over the hill to study AT THEIR OWN ACCOUNT. In other words, they mastered science - at the expense of the estates' income.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: ABC-schütze

The crowned mediocrity, however, did not have enough brains, neither from the first nor from the second, to draw correct and timely conclusions.

Please study all the reforms carried out in Russia after 1905, then broadcast such nonsense. If you can.

Quote: ABC-schütze

The Soviet government, FIRST of doing, proclaimed PEACE, LAND (IN THE OWNERSHIP OF THE WHOLE PEOPLE, and not just the "peasants")

The Soviet government specifically promised land to the peasants, so you should not lie. This is easily verified. And the promised peace came only two years after the end of the very imperialist one against which the Bolsheviks so bravely opposed. Such a good world ... And in the Far East, and in general, until the age of 24 there were battles.

Quote: ABC-schütze

DEMANDED (through the mouth of Lenin), from the youth, the FIRST BUSINESS - TO LEARN.

But Nicholas 2 did not require this. He just did - he increased the number of schools, gymnasiums and teachers in them and gave the children the opportunity to receive a normal education. At the same rate of growth in primary schools and gymnasiums, the number of educated children, no later than the 25th year, should have reached 100% and without any revolutions and other fratricidal abominations.

[ABC-schutze]

1. Sorry, but there is nothing banal to "study". In the absence of a "subject of study" ... Crowned mediocrity ANY "reformist ideas", especially OWN, NEVER HAVE BY DEFINITION. Lazy and parasite, at best, who took the time to "reform" military uniforms. In contrast to the real reformer - the same Peter the Great. I didn’t, from the moment of "Khodynka" and up to "Ipatievsky basement" And the establishment of a "deliberative" Duma, FORCED BY Fear, is not serious to consider "reforming" ... And for God's sake, do not try to drape with tags of the Nikolaev "reform" of the initiative of Witte or Stolypin, which DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING IN THE ITSELF OF THE AUTHORIZED POWER ".

2. "Promises" of Soviet power to the EXPLOITED, LABOR people, incl. and to the peasants, are reflected in her OFFICIAL Decrees, and not in "speeches from the stands". And they are IMPLEMENTED IMMEDIATELY WITH THE COMING TO POWER. LAND ownership of the LAND - CANCELED! Land (factories, factories, etc.) become the property of the LABOR people. Accusations to the wrong address ... THE Bolsheviks OFFERED TO ALL the warring parties, and not the "promised" peace - WITHOUT ANNEXIA and CONTRIBUTIONS, came "three years later", through the fault of the Bolsheviks? .. Or is it their opponents? .. Unleashed in Russia civil war and relying, at the same time, on the interventionists ANTANT-y and the German occupiers? .. Throughout the entire territory, from Arkhangelsk, to Kiev, Tiflis, and Vladivostok? ..

3. Leave the "subjunctive" mood aside. First, the crowned mediocrity NEVER WAS a strategist. For this, to argue in the context of its "reformatory" potentials, about what "would be" in 25 years, is pointless ... and the Soviet power, in the WAY OF THE WAYING, civil war on the creation and development of the PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM, you were not offered? ..

By the way, I have a big request for you. In the context of the aforementioned "school building" of the crowned mediocrity. Do me a favor, try to find at least ONE village girl on the "school" picture of Bogdanov-BELSKY ... And more ... Sorry, but FOUR-YEARS sitting of Russian men in the trenches, through the fault of the crowned mediocrity, DRAWING the country into ABSOLUTELY necessary to her war, you do not consider "fratricidal" business? ..

[Trapperxnumx]

Lots of caps, lots of emotions. It's a pity, the meaning is negligible.
I understand that you do not like Nicholas II, but you cannot cross out everything that was done at that time like this. Or have you been banned from Google? Use Yandex. There is a lot of information. Under Nicholas 2, global changes took place in the country. Especially after 2. In terms of the social sphere, finance, industry, the peasantry, military training, etc. Or are you one of those who "not thanks, but in spite of"? Then both Lenin and Stalin can also be prompted a lot of things.

Quote: ABC-schütze

"Promises" of the Soviet government to the EXPLOITED, LABOR people, incl. and to the peasants, are reflected in her OFFICIAL Decrees, and not in "speeches from the stands".

I will surprise you, but people followed exactly the speeches from the stands and posters in prominent places. Do you really think that the peasants went to the Red Army for the right to work on a collective farm for workdays?

Quote: ABC-schütze

Land (factories, factories, etc.) become the property of the LABOR people.

It is the people. And not the state, as it really happened.

Quote: ABC-schütze

For this, to argue in the context of his "reformatory" potentials, about what "would be" in 25 years

I didn't write "in 25 years". I wrote about 25 years old. These are two big differences based on basic logic. It is a pity that it is not available to you because of the bias towards the subject of the dispute.

Quote: ABC-schütze

But to compare the percentage of the STATE BUDGET allocated for "public education" in peacetime, by the tsarist autocracy, and the Soviet government, in the ongoing civil war, for the creation and development of the PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM, you were not offered? ..

If you share information I will be extremely grateful. After the 25th year, there is data, before this time - no.

Quote: ABC-schütze

Do me a favor, try to find at least ONE rural girl on the "school" picture of Bogdanov-BELSKY ...

Are you suggesting to start learning history in pictures? But yes, there is some truth in your words. Many peasants did not want to send their daughters to school. So it was with my great-grandfathers - all the boys are literate, but my grandmother is not.

Quote: ABC-schütze

FOUR-YEARS sitting of Russian men in the trenches, through the fault of the crowned mediocrity, DRAWING the country into an absolutely unnecessary, ANOTHER war, do you not consider it a "fratricidal" thing? ..

Defense of the Fatherland from external aggression? No, I don’t think so.

[ABC-schutze]

1. "Use Yandex. There is a lot of information. Under Nicholas 2, global changes took place in the country. Especially after 1905. ..."
************************************************** ***************
I think that using the aforementioned "search engines" it will be quite easy for you to understand that "UNDER Nicholas ..." and "THANKS to Nikolai ..." are not exactly the same thing. Especially, in the context of the "reformatory" potential of the character under discussion ...

2. "I understand that you do not like Nicholas 2, but you cannot cross out everything that was being done at that time like this ...."
************************************************** ***************
I do not like mediocrity, not "Nicholas 2" ... Especially mediocrity, at the head of the Russian state. And it makes no difference to me in what historical hypostasis these mediocrities appear, mediocre "reformers" of monarchs, or mediocre "perestroika" - general secretaries ...

3. "I will surprise you, but people followed exactly the speeches from the stands and posters in prominent places. Do you really think that the peasants went to the Red Army for the right to work on a collective farm for workdays?"
************************************************** ***************
For what people "followed", they will speak for themselves. The services of third-party "interpreters" are unnecessary here ... Just in case, the Bolsheviks with their "speeches" went somewhere LATER LATER to the people. For their leaders through prisons, exiles and emigration "were acquired." This time ... And the aforementioned "WORLD WITHOUT ANNEXIONS and CONTRIBUTIONS", I repeat once again, they did not "promise" the PEOPLE of Russia, but PROMOTED as the BASIC POLITICAL INITIATIVE, addressed EQUALLY to ALL WARRIORS. Offered OPEN and IN THE EYES OF THE PEOPLE OF RUSSIA. And this policy began to be implemented IMMEDIATELY upon coming to power. These are two ... By the way, why did the aforementioned "people" not go ANTI-COMMUNISTS - after those who "promised" war "to a victorious end"? .. These are three ... I will repeat again. The peasants, MOST of them, followed the Bolsheviks, because their POLICY, AS IS, in PRINCIPLE was directed AGAINST THE LANDS and other, PRIVATE EXPLOITATION of the peasants. The "workdays" mentioned and OBJECTIVELY DEFINED by the economic situation are a situational form, and not the ESSENCE of the policy of the Soviet government. For sim, do not speculate. The essence of the policy of the Soviet government in relation to peasants is the world's first SANATORIUM for PEASANTS - "LIVADIA", the elimination of illiteracy in the countryside, preferential commodity and cash lending to peasants, the creation of a system of medical care in the countryside. This is - at least. Than with all the previous "reformers" and did not smell ...

4. "Do you propose to start studying history in pictures? But yes, there is some truth in your words. Many peasants did not want to send their daughters to school. So it was with my great-grandfathers - all the boys are literate, but my grandmother is not."
************************************************** ***************
Well, if your real progenitors are for you this is a "story in pictures", I greet you ... For me, who had a "pra" in ONE of the branches, a middle peasant (Vladimir province, Gus Khrustalny uyezd, the village of Ya-no ...), with a family of 11 children (two "just died", because high infant mortality was the "norm", of the rest - SIX Daughters and THREE SONS). So, only boys were "sent" to read and write. And the daughters stayed at home, not because the parents "did not want", but because they COULD NOT. Knowing that the chances of LITERATIVE guys "go out to the people" and bring income to the house are MUCH HIGHER than those of "girls". So, the "citizen artist" knew perfectly well what he was "painting". AND WHY ...

[ABC-schutze]

“I didn’t write“ after 25 years. ”I wrote about 25 years. These are two big differences based on elementary logic. It’s a pity that it is not available to you because of the bias towards the subject of the dispute.”
************************************************** ***************
On the other hand, unlike you, arithmetic is still quite accessible to me ... The mentioned "in 25 years" you wrote taking the 1905th year as the "starting point" for counting "reformism". The difference is 20 years. And I wrote that "the crowned mediocrity was not a strategist." A "20-year" term, and there is quite a LONG-TERM STRATEGIC PLANNING. Alas, Russian society in all its guises did not have any high expectations in relation to the crowned mediocrity. Well, perhaps, with the exception of Baron Fredericks and "Father Gregory" ...

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: ABC-schütze

On the other hand, unlike you, arithmetic is still quite accessible to me ... The mentioned "in 25 years" you wrote taking the 1905th year as the "starting point" for counting "reformism".

There is no need to explain what I am writing for me.

At the same rate of growth in primary schools and gymnasiums, the number of educated children should have reached 25% by the age of 100

It was my mistake that I did not write "no later than 1925". I'm sorry. I didn’t make any amendments that I could be misunderstood.

[ABC-schutze]

1. "There is no need to explain what I am writing for me."
************************************************** ********
I do not explain "for you" what you "write. I show that you do not understand. Or, stubbornly, but unsubstantiated, pretend that you do not understand ...

2. "It was my mistake that I did not write" no later than 1925 "...."
************************************************** *********
Your mistake was AND REMAINS what you wrote - "while maintaining the existing rates of construction" (schools in the countryside).

You don’t understand that IN THE ABSENCE OF ADVANCED AND CLEARLY FORMULATED, LONG-TERM GOALS OF CREATION AND DEVELOPMENT OF THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM (and not just, some abstract, - "at the behest of", - "building schools"), is your phrase a banal subjunctive? Or, to put it simply, a Manilov good wish? .. NOT relying on ANY LONG-TERM and CLEARLY FORMULATED PLANS aimed at IMPLEMENTING the above-mentioned GOALS? ..

Well, after all, the crowned mediocrity, Nicholas II, HAD NO STRATEGIC goals and the STRATEGIC plans arising from them. Not "in general," not specifically - in the field of PEOPLE education.

Unlike the Bolsheviks, who immediately after coming to power, these GOALS were OPEN and LOUDLY proclaimed. And they started their INTENSIVE and PLANOMARAL implementation, creating both a SYSTEM of educational institutions of ALL LEVELS and FORMS of training, and a PERSONNEL TRAINING SYSTEM, ALL LEVELS for THEM. Including the training of NATIONAL personnel ...

Including SUCH NECESSARY activities as SYSTEMATIC, INFORMATION AND PROPAGANDISM work with the POPULATION to PROMOTE THE NECESSITY OF EDUCATION (literacy) and KNOWLEDGE (as such). To which, addressing the YOUTH, did the CREATOR of the Soviet state himself join - Vladimir Lenin.

Well, where, when and how your "reformer", or whoever he is there - Nicholas II, did, AS THE HEAD OF STATE, do something like that? education? ..

[bk0010]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Comparable to VOSR? The Meiji "revolution" is a summit coup. The consequences are impressive, though. But there were no mass hangings and executions.

Tell the samurai. And the peasants who were dying from backbreaking labor, who were jealous of the criminals. There was actually a civil war and peasant uprisings. They didn’t hang the emperor, yes.

[paul3390]

Is this the elite ?? Elite - it is called that because it does at least something useful for the country better than others. For example - fighting for her. And this is an ordinary thief and crook, who only knows how to plunder the country and the people.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

... And for some reason in the Russian elite there was a conviction that the literacy of the people would certainly push them to revolt.

Please reread the article. The great growth of education is perfectly shown there, incl. among the peasantry.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

The Cook's Children Law was also conceived with a good purpose. In fact, he pushed the youth to the revolution.

[Sergej1972]

Not a law, but a circular from Minister Delyanov. Moreover, in fact, a stillborn circular.

[bashir141]

Quote: Trapper7

Please reread the article. The great growth of education is perfectly shown there, incl. among the peasantry.

Reread. Better yet, take a look at the official royal documents.
How was the population of tsarist Russia illiterate during the census in 1987 - 78.9%.
So it remained illiterate by the beginning of the revolution - 79%

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: Sunstorm

3) In the Republic of Ingushetia there is a process of industrialization (construction of factories, railways, etc. ... but many will foaming at the mouth to prove that without the Bolsheviks there is neither one nor the other).

For the sake of interest, you will raise the figures of this leap and compare them with the world ones, compare the yield, the level of mechanization, etc. etc.

[Doliva63]

Damn, plusanul!

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: Doliva63

Damn, plusanul!

did you want?

[Doliva63]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Quote: Doliva63

Damn, plusanul!

did you want?

You are not, but the thought is yes.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: Doliva63

You are not, but the thought is yes.

floridly

[Doliva63]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Quote: Doliva63

You are not, but the thought is yes.

floridly

Why are you so difficult? Liked the thought, plusanul.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

and what have I to do with it ?!

[Doliva63]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

and what have I to do with it ?!

Well, nothing to do with it. It seemed.

[Professor]

Military Review History

No, this is not a "story". This is the propaganda of the Communist Party.

and classical and high-quality education will remain only for the “elite”.

It has always been that way. And with nikolashka and in the scoop and now. Majors studied in prestigious universities in the capital, the rest in polytechnics, universities preparing gray "specialists" with diplomas that are not recognized by anyone in the developed world.

[Far B]

And figs with the fact that majors studied in the capital's universities. But the "tower" under the Union was free and publicly available. And no matter that the capitalist countries did not recognize our diplomas. Who was hot or cold from this before 91? The country received the specialists it needed in the required quantities, which is not even close now (whatever industry you touch, the question is: "Where to get the personnel ?!"). You need to think more broadly, Mr. Professor, you need a lump.

[Professor]

Quote: Dalny V

But the "tower" under the Union was free and publicly available.

... and of the same quality. Let's talk about correspondence students and evening parties or will we not shock the younger generation? Even in the full-time department, I would only issue a diploma to one in 10.

Quote: Dalny V

And no matter that the capitalist countries did not recognize our diplomas. Who was hot or cold from this before 91?

Of course there is a difference. Otherwise, Zaporozhets, like Porsche, is also an air-cooled car, and not a breed of common sense.

Quote: Dalny V

The country received the specialists it needed in the necessary quantities, which is not even close now (whatever industry you touch, the question is: "Where to get the personnel ?!"). You need to think more broadly, Mr. Professor, you need a lump.

No, I didn't. Quantity is not capable of creating a product, and there has always been a shortage of quality specialists.

[Far B]

1. Why - let's shock the younger generation. Now there are no correspondence students. And these, like their ... Remote controllers, here.
The quality of education was enough for the USSR to confidently rank second in terms of economic development. And he approached the first.
2. Why are you comparing Porsche with Zaporozhets? They are not even classmates. And let's talk about the MTZ tractor, which, suddenly, were highly quoted by amero-farmers? Or about MZKT, BelAZ, ZIL? About aviation, incl. and civil? About medicine? Finally, about sports. So what is the difference? The West did not recognize Soviet diplomas based on pure ideology, you may not know.
3. Where and when were there enough quality specialists? Maybe in your blessed West? Why then are the headhunters from the companies of cool specialists luring away?
With a normally developing, growing economy, there will always be a certain shortage of personnel. This is an axiom.

[Professor]

Quote: Dalny V

1. Why - let's shock the younger generation. Now there are no correspondence students. And these, like their ... Remote controllers, here.
The quality of education was enough for the USSR to confidently rank second in terms of economic development. And he approached the first.

The victims of the exam are resting in comparison with correspondence students. Seems to me it was a sabotage of the West. No one else could have invented such saboteurs and saboteurs and wreckers as correspondence students.
The USSR "constantly caught up" and tore the navel. All the most advanced enterprises in the USSR were built ... that's right, bourgeois. This was the case under Dzhugashvili and under Brezhnev.

Quote: Dalny V

2. Why are you comparing Porsche with Zaporozhets? They are not even classmates. And let's talk about the MTZ tractor, which, suddenly, were highly quoted by amero-farmers? Or about MZKT, BelAZ, ZIL? About aviation, incl. and civil? About medicine? Finally, about sports. So what is the difference? The West did not recognize Soviet diplomas based on pure ideology, you may not know.

Why not classmates? Small cars EMNIP.
And let's.
MTZ "was highly quoted among amerofarmers" is an urban legend. John Deere is crying. Dumping prices did not help for a long time on Soviet technology. So the KRAZs were in England. For that kind of money, I would buy.
BelAZ and Caterpillar and Japanese Kamacheototam? The first one takes only at a price. Well, Soviet workers are paid less than American or Japanese workers.
Let's keep quiet about aviation. About the dead or nothing or ...
I suggest not discussing medicine. The difference is orders of magnitude.
Diplomas were not recognized because of the poor quality of them. To continue my studies with the bourgeois, I myself had to "confirm" my diploma with honors. I will also keep silent about the difference in the level of knowledge. There every day was like a scoop before the session.

Quote: Dalny V

3. Where and when were there enough quality specialists? Maybe in your blessed West? Why then are the headhunters from the companies of cool specialists luring away?
With a normally developing, growing economy, there will always be a certain shortage of personnel. This is an axiom.

We have enough quality specialists.
Although finding a good employee is always more difficult than a good job. From my own experience.
Nowadays there is only a shortage among programmers. Temporary. And like among anesthesiologists. But there is a problem with salaries. In the United States, this is the highest paid health worker. We have...

[Far B]

1. USSR - did not overstrain. He was torn. With the help of renegades like the hunchback, Shevardnadze, Yakovlev and others.
Cho, that's all, that's all right ?! Did the same MZKT know about this? And Tupolev and Korolev? And the nuclear scientists? And, well, yes, these were not advanced enterprises, because the wild scoop itself could not do anything. Only galoshes, only hardcore.
2. Uh-huh, an urban legend. For you, everything that does not fit into your paradigm, I see, goes into the category of urban legends. No, it's convenient, cho.
3. Chot you contradict yourself. So are there enough workers or is there a shortage? You will decide somehow.

We have...

In Israel?

[Professor]

1. A dozen politicians to destroy the "second economy of the world" in a couple of years
MZKT conquered the world and pushed aside Oshkosh?
Tupolev and Korolev copied German and American designs. Gagarin flew on a modernized German rocket
The atomic bomb was also stolen.
There were also advanced enterprises. I will not deny, but ... in general, they lagged behind for a long time.
2. I have decided. There is a surplus of workers, but ... in some areas there is a temporary shortage. Programmers and anesthetists for example.
3. We are in Israel.

[Far B]

If these are top echelon politicians, it's easy. By the way, countries are always easier to conquer with donkeys laden with gold than an army.
What for MZKT to conquer the world?
They made fun of copying, thanks. I suspect that von Braun also laughed in the next world - the Americans, even with his participation (read, not using a copy, but the original) somehow ended up behind.
And nuclear power plants with bonba, oga. And in the future, everyone stole. Vorovayki just some.
You, professor, just tell me straight out: well, I don't like this scoop! - and all for a short time. What for an owl to pull on the globe? The bird hurts!

[Professor]

Upper echelon politicians in other countries probably turned out to be not so talented as to ruin the country in a couple of seconds.
What, then, is so remarkable about MZKT?
Copying took place. I will not say anything about a copy of the 1-in-1 Tupolev American bomber. The Royal Rocket was a copy of the F-1 and was created with the participation of German specialists. Even less famous ones. And by the way, the Americans lagged behind the Gagarin launch by only a few weeks.
And they really stole everything. As there the sun-faced said "claw-scratch".
Well, I do not like this scoop! I never hid it.

[Far B]

Uh ... Are you sure that in other countries politicians did not surrender the interests of their state to someone else? As for me, there are lots of examples. Take a look around.
MZKT is notable for the fact that it is an advanced enterprise, and it was not built by the bourgeoisie. We were talking about it from the very beginning, and it was forgotten at your suggestion?
The stump is so clear that Korolev built his developments on some basis, who can argue with that? But you're not saying Boeing stole the Wright brothers' idea. For some reason. By the way, the use of someone's well-known (even in narrow professional circles) developments can hardly be called theft when you create a completely new product.

[Professor]

Has someone ruined the third, fourth, tenth or even twentieth economy in the world?
What is MZKT advanced? Not even a competitor to Oshkosh ...
It's one thing to take DRAWINGS of a product and create a copy (stealing), it's another to use a principle (wheel) invented by others. The Queen's rocket was a COPY of the German rocket.

[Far B]

Because in our country, in addition to surrendering the interests of the state, a revolution (contract) took place at the same time. Change of social formation. With all that it implies. Are you really a professor?
And with what fright MZKT should was to be someone's competitor? And advanced, because the world's first dofiga of different wunderwafel invented and implemented. If you're interested, browse the Internet. (No, you are definitely a professor?)
And Korolev did not alter anything on this copy at all? I just screwed Vostok-1 to it with a wire - and ka-ak zhahnet! So what? Why did he wait so long? Couldn't find the wire? And, well, yes, the scoop, some galoshes around. It is inconvenient to fasten with galoshes, I agree.
No, it seems, you are not a professor.

[Professor]

A revolution in the world's second economy? Nonsense. Exactly a professor. Sour cabbage soup.
That is, MZKT has not created anything outstanding? Definitely a professor. Sour cabbage soup.
Korolyov, as in any copy, adjusted it to fit himself. I had to tinker with the materials, so the Soviet industry then could not provide the entire list of materials used by the Germans in the original.
I'm a professor, of course. Sour cabbage soup. What does it change? Copies of Korolev and Tupolev become originals?

[Far B]

Cho surprises you? "Hitler did not eat meat and loved children - this is nonsense" ("Brigade S"). Everything happens for the first time.
MZKT created. You are just too lazy to dig in the Internet. Well, don't care.
ABOUT! That is, the Soviet industry was eventually able to provide the necessary list of materials, and even faster than the brutal ameroindustry, which also had von Braun at its disposal. Taki ... Nonsense!
Of course, all Korolev and Tupolev products that are not accurate copy are originals. Or did the Fritzes have a supersonic plane? Or were they the first to be in space? So, if something does not suit you, you can contact the League of Sexual Reforms.
... And I wouldn't eat your cabbage soup. You are no professor of sour cabbage soup.

[Professor]

There are no examples in history when the leading economies were blown away in a couple of years. This is nonsense. There are no examples of empty store shelves in major economies. It doesn't work that way.
Why would I and the Internet dig? You gave MZKT as an example, and you need to prove its "uniqueness".
Over the years, Soviet industry was able to copy what the Germans did during the World War. No nonsense.
Especially the "original" is the Tu-4. Then there are no complaints about the Chinese either. All their products are "originals".
The Fritz sang a jet plane, and the Americans the first supersonic one. It was the German rocket assembled in the USSR that delivered the first satellite into space.
Everything suits me. I'm not complaining about life.
And all the best to you. Nice talk.

[Far B]

They were not deflated, but were artificially deflated. You will not be surprised if I remind you that the chairman of the Extraordinary Food Commission, under which those very store shelves were empty, was the chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR, a certain Boris N. Yeltsin? Once again, if politicians at the top echelon want to make a (counter) revolution, they will. And do not talk nonsense, claiming that this does not happen: in the history of Russia this happened twice - in February 17th and in 91st. An artificial crisis is created - and voila! Even if you are the very first economy, but when the people do not have GREAT, all that remains is to channel the process of popular discontent in the right direction. So do not talk about "it does not happen." Moreover, we are all witnesses here that it was.
What does the separate product TU-4 have to do with it? It was about the fact that all the leading enterprises for the USSR were built by the bourgeois ("It was like that under Dzhugashvili and under Brezhnev" - your words. Do you remember?). You are being carried somewhere to the wrong steppe at all.
Yes, all the best to you too.

[vova1973]

The designer, though what he can draw will look brilliant, but everything rests on technology, and this is the entire industry of the country.

[vova1973]

The whole industry, workers cannot be taken away and quickly taught.

[Bolt cutter]

Well, I do not like this scoop!

You crave crunch French roll kosher matzo beyond the Pale?

[Serg65]

Quote: professor

The atomic bomb was also stolen.

Moreover, your fellow tribesmen stole it in exchange for land in Palestine, then these lands were proudly called Israel ...

[Bolt cutter]

So the KRAZs were in England.

At an abandoned factory in England, I saw Soviet machines.

[Professor]

Quote: Bolt Cutter

So the KRAZs were in England.

At an abandoned factory in England, I saw Soviet machines.

And today you can see the Chinese everywhere. They are simply cheaper than bourgeois ones. Not better, not more precise, not more reliable, but cheaper.

[Bolt cutter]

Chinese are everywhere. They are simply cheaper than bourgeois ones.

German and Swiss machine tool builders did not go broke - therefore, the low cost of machine tools is not a decisive factor. That plant in east London had been there since the seventies and was scrapped because London had grown and selling building land turned out to be more profitable than remodeling it.

[Professor]

Quote: Bolt Cutter

Chinese are everywhere. They are simply cheaper than bourgeois ones.

German and Swiss machine tool builders did not go broke - therefore, the low cost of machine tools is not a decisive factor. That plant in east London had been there since the seventies and was scrapped because London had grown and selling building land turned out to be more profitable than remodeling it.

Of course not broke. When you need micron tolerances, there is no competition. And when "and so will come down", then the Chinese are right there.

And in the 70s, the bourgeoisie were looking for something cheaper.

It happened in different ways. In Armenia there was a plant for stones of cutting machines STROMMASH. Almost everything is exported. Now closed. The earthquake destroyed it, otherwise it could have worked. The niche is specific.
On the other hand, there was a DorMashin plant in Nikolaev. It closed as soon as the bourgeoisie began to supply their road equipment to the FSU. The Chinese have occupied a cheap niche.

[Grim Reaper]

Quote: professor

Quote: Bolt Cutter

So the KRAZs were in England.

At an abandoned factory in England, I saw Soviet machines.

And today you can see the Chinese everywhere. They are simply cheaper than bourgeois ones. Not better, not more precise, not more reliable, but cheaper.

Well I do not know. There are a lot of German and South Korean companies at the enterprises where I have worked lately. There are definitely no Chinese. Perhaps it is connected with the special features of the enterprise "ferrous metallurgy" ..... but China is definitely not there.

[boris epstein]

And now I wouldn't give it to every fiftieth. Bribes, sir. At entrance exams, at a competition, at the delivery of sessions, at graduation. Corruption, sir.
"... and there was always a shortage of quality specialists." Ask the United States how many really high-quality specialists from the former USSR they received after Gorbachev and Yeltsin, not even hundreds, thousands.
About the elite Yes, now Russian students and schoolchildren are winning international Olympiads in physics, chemistry, and programming. I am glad for them and for Russia. But they are all from elite schools or from elite universities.
And read the biography of the vice-admiral of the Russian fleet Stepan Osipovich Makarov. An all-round talented man. His father began his service as an ordinary sailor. For 25 years of service he rose to the rank of sergeant major and the position of boatswain, the highest non-commissioned officer rank in the Russian Empire, and later and the rank of ensign. For this he was promoted to the honorable nobility. Stepan was the fourth child, but already born by the nobleman Osip Fedorovich Makarov and therefore, unlike his older brothers, had the right to enter the Naval Cadet Corps.

[gsev]

Quote: professor

Let's talk about correspondence students and evening parties or will we not shock the younger generation?

For example Georgy Babakin. The diploma was kind of issued to him after his production reached other planets. We can say that it is a single example, but there is no one to compare with in terms of the success of interplanetary flights. In the USSR, technicians subordinate to a real engineer and designer were not trained. Those to whom you would not give diplomas in reality worked as a technician and received less worker and engineer. In Russia, over the past 30 years, it has changed a little in this regard. For example, my relative sends his daughter with below average abilities to a technical school, but hopes to train her additionally in evening courses and thinks that in 18 months in Russia her salary will be about $ 1000-1500.

[Frank Muller]

As Fyodor Fyodor said from Operation Y: “You need to be softer with people, but look better at questions!”. Our Soviet leadership could only look one-sided at “Shirshe”. When UNESCO offered to favorably resolve the issue of international recognition of diplomas of Soviet universities (domestic education was recognized as quite decent and of high quality), our authorities refused to fulfill the main condition: to remove social disciplines from the register of compulsory ones, making them optional. Diamat, history and mathematics, scientific committee, the history of the CPSU could not be (in the opinion of the governing bodies) subjected to any infringement. Therefore, our diplomas were infringed on in terms of foreign recognition, i.e. not recognized.

[Alexander Kopychev]

It has always been that way. And with nikolashka and in the scoop and now.

Here are minus, but what is wrong? It’s easy to understand that it’s impossible to provide the same level of education in rural outback and a prestigious specialized school in the capital! But it is necessary to teach everyone and everywhere !!! Even one new Lomonosov justifies all the costs!

[Boris55]

Quote: professor

with diplomas not recognized by anyone in the developed world.

Yes, we do not care about this underdeveloped World and their recognition:

- the first man in space is ours;
- the first nuclear power plant is ours;

- biological weapons - theirs;
- an atomic bomb - theirs;

Are you inviting us to be proud of their "accomplishments"?

[Professor]

Quote: Boris55

Quote: professor

with diplomas not recognized by anyone in the developed world.

Yes, we do not care about this underdeveloped World and their recognition:

- the first man in space is ours;
- the first nuclear power plant is ours;

- biological weapons - theirs;
- an atomic bomb - theirs;

Are you inviting us to be proud of their "accomplishments"?

I don't want to be proud of anything. I want to use achievements. For example, satellite navigation in a wristwatch, disposable syringes or the Internet in a mobile phone. What is the use of "the first person in space" or "second" to me?

[Grim Reaper]

Quote: professor

Quote: Boris55

Quote: professor

with diplomas not recognized by anyone in the developed world.

Yes, we do not care about this underdeveloped World and their recognition:

- the first man in space is ours;
- the first nuclear power plant is ours;

- biological weapons - theirs;
- an atomic bomb - theirs;

Are you inviting us to be proud of their "accomplishments"?

I don't want to be proud of anything. I want to use achievements. For example, satellite navigation in a wristwatch, disposable syringes or the Internet in a mobile phone. What is the use of "the first person in space" or "second" to me?

Professor!!!
You are an intelligent person. And you understand perfectly well what is "fundamental science" And what kind of uselessness. Perhaps the benefits of the achievements of the 60s. Only now I went to "civilian life". Attack then yes. Not much difference who was the first, with a little difference. But nonetheless ;)

[Engineer]

Stop.
What does unrecognized mean? Diplomas of Russian polytechnics are confirmed in the USA or Canada without any problems.
For example, a diploma from the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology does not need to be confirmed for many Western companies. They know and appreciate.

[Professor]

Quote: Engineer

Stop.
What does unrecognized mean? Diplomas of Russian polytechnics are confirmed in the USA or Canada without any problems.
For example, a diploma from the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology does not need to be confirmed for many Western companies. They know and appreciate.

The fact that the trade union of engineers will accept you into its ranks on the basis of your diploma or the Ministry of Education will issue you a certificate is not recognition of your diploma. Try to enroll in an MIT magistrate with a Uryupinsk Polytechnic diploma or get a job at Boing not based on previous work experience.

[Engineer]

The fact that the trade union of engineers will accept you into its ranks on the basis of your diploma or the Ministry of Education will issue you a certificate is not recognition of your diploma.

This is what it is. Confirmation of education is based on formal criteria, regardless of the rating of the university. The US Department of Education does not do this, it does assessment bodies such as WES. The certificate will indicate the degree and area of ​​expertise.

For the MIT master's program, it makes absolutely no difference what university diploma I have in my hands. There are formal criteria.

https://gradadmissions.mit.edu/applications/procedures
Requirements

To be admitted as a regular graduate student, an applicant must have earned a bachelor's degree or its equivalent from a college, university, or technical school of acceptable standing. Students in their final year of undergraduate study may be admitted on the condition that their bachelor's degree is awarded before they enroll at MIT.

Submission of the online application. Qualified applicants interested in more than one department must submit separate applications to each department of interest.
A $ 75 application fee. Applications to the MIT Sloan School of Management may have application fees between $ 75 and $ 250.
For more details regarding application fee waivers and eligibility, please see our Application Fee Waiver page.
Letters of recommendation.
A statement of objectives.
Official GRE test scores.
Official TOEFL or IELTS English proficiency exam test scores.
transcripts.
CV or resume.

Specifically, none of the acquaintances studied at MIT. He studied at Stanford and it was in the magistracy after the master's degree and work in Russia.
An acquaintance graduated from the Novosibirsk Polytechnic University (NSTU) and works in the USA for Boeing. Work experience in the Russian aviation industry was 1-2 years. It's even funny.
PS
No one of the acquaintances of candidates of sciences who worked in the West confirmed their academic degree. There were enough publications in peer-reviewed journals. And treated them like full-fledged PhDs
PPS
Russia is a signatory of the Washington Accord (sort of since 2004) and all of its bachelor's and master's degrees are up to standards. It's official

[Professor]

Quote: Engineer

There are formal criteria.

And there are non-formal criteria. I was "asked" to retake theoretical mechanics. Moreover, verbally, which is nonsense here. After that, they officially added a couple of subjects from the first degree "for compliance" and only after that they were admitted to the university as "the rest".

Quote: Engineer

PS
No one of the acquaintances of candidates of sciences who worked in the West confirmed their academic degree. There were enough publications in peer-reviewed journals. And treated them like full-fledged PhDs

A private trader is generally purple what your academic degree is. Can you get the job done? Get money. But if they were going to do a post dock at the university, then here Uryupinsk would play a bad joke with them. A place would be found for a graduate of the Berlin Polytechnic.

Quote: Engineer

PPS
Russia is a signatory of the Washington Accord (sort of since 2004) and all of its bachelor's and master's degrees are up to standards. It's official

Yes, it's official. And in life, no one will look at your diploma. In my company 3 and 3 electricians-repairmen have higher education, electrical engineer with master's degrees. One with a Soviet diploma, one with Ukrainian and one with Kazakh. Now they are dragging wires.

[Engineer]

And there are non-formal criteria. I was "asked" to retake theoretical mechanics. Moreover, verbally, which is nonsense here.

What year? This may have been before the Washington Agreement.

But if they were going to do a post dock at the university, then here Uryupinsk would play a bad joke with them. A place would be found for a graduate of the Berlin Polytechnic.

Post dock is almost the main direction of scientific migration from Russia. Defend and dump. The places are stable. Both for physicists and for the humanities.

And in life, no one will look at your diploma. In my company 3 and 3 electricians-repairmen have higher education, electrical engineer with master's degrees. One with a Soviet diploma, one with Ukrainian and one with Kazakh. Now they are carrying wires.

You piled it all up. Yes, post-Soviet engineers in the West often work in low positions. There are a variety of reasons. For example, in Russia he had a diploma in electrical engineering, worked in the field, led a team. In Germany he works in the field, but he does it all by himself. For the language barrier. Not because his diploma is crap.
They will look at the diploma. HR works everywhere according to formal criteria. This does not give any guarantees, but even a Russian confirmed diploma is a huge plus.

[Professor]

Quote: Engineer

What year? This may have been before the Washington Agreement.

1990s. The agreement is not a decree to a specific university. The Technion, for example, decides for itself what to admit and what not.

Quote: Engineer

Post dock is almost the main direction of scientific migration from Russia. Defend and dump. The places are stable. Both for physicists and for the humanities.

Find. It is stable in local Uryupinsk.

Quote: Engineer

You piled it all up. Yes, post-Soviet engineers in the West often work in low positions. There are a variety of reasons. For example, in Russia he had a diploma in electrical engineering, worked in the field, led a team. In Germany he works in the field, but he does it all by himself. For the language barrier. Not because his diploma is crap.
They will look at the diploma. HR works everywhere according to formal criteria. This does not give any guarantees, but even a Russian confirmed diploma is a huge plus.

That's it. HR will first select graduates of local universities and only in cases where a vacancy cannot be filled will they start choosing from non-local ones ..

[Engineer]

1990s. The agreement is not a decree to a specific university. The Technion, for example, decides for itself what to admit and what not.

Everything flows, everything changes. Israel is not a very popular destination now, so I don’t presume to judge. Those who leave for Europe and overseas usually have no problems with diploma confirmation (judging by engineers and scientists, I have no information about doctors and others)

That's it. HR will first select graduates of local universities and only in cases where a vacancy cannot be filled will they start choosing from non-local ones ..

HR in Europe will first select its citizens and then select EU citizens.
This is spelled out at the legislative level.
HR in the USA and Canada will first select the citizens of their country, and then the persons with a work visa.
And only then they will deal with the applicant's diplomas.

To sum up.

Graduates of polytechnics and scientific universities of Russia successfully enter bachelor's and master's programs in western universities, receive PhDs there, and leave for postdoctoral studies. Regarding the postdocs of Russian scientists, specialized firms hunt for publications. I am currently working in the scientific field. I know a thing or two about the subject.

These are facts. For me it's not bad for the "unrecognized"

[Professor]

Quote: Engineer

Everything flows, everything changes. Israel is not a very popular destination now, so I don’t presume to judge. Those who leave for Europe and overseas usually have no problems with diploma confirmation (judging by engineers and scientists, I have no information about doctors and others)

If you are seven inches in the forehead, then a diploma is not needed. I know those too. An engineer from Gd, but without formal education. The main thing is to get for an interview, and there is already a question of technique how to show off your knowledge. The problem is that in HR there are almost always stupid girls who make the initial selection. And by virtue of their intelligence, first of all, they select candidates for keywords familiar to girls. Local candidates always have an advantage. There are firms where formal education is required. This is the case in almost all American corporations.

Quote: Engineer

To sum up.

Graduates of polytechnics and scientific universities of Russia successfully enter bachelor's and master's programs in western universities, receive PhDs there, and leave for postdoctoral studies. Regarding the postdocs of Russian scientists, specialized firms hunt for publications. I am currently working in the scientific field. I know a thing or two about the subject.

These are facts. For me it's not bad for the "unrecognized"

It is possible to speak about "success" only if there are statistics of accepted documents, received and finished documents. Postdoc directly depends on the name of the university. All other things being equal, an MIT graduate will find it much easier than a graduate of Uryupinsk University. This is ce-la-vie.

[xorek]

Quote: professor

And there are non-formal criteria. I was "asked" to retake theoretical mechanics. Moreover, verbally, which is nonsense here. After that, they officially added a couple of subjects from the first degree "for compliance" and only after that they were admitted to the university as "the rest".

In vain they enrolled, judging by your comments here, evil from one hot and tricky territory .. Still, some Deans were right, then dismissed .. It is not worth taking them, after all, they will flee to Israel, we have many other potential students from the provinces who will bring greater benefit to the Fatherland than these cunning ones .. Is that so the professor?

[bk0010]

Quote: professor

And there are non-formal criteria. I was "asked" to retake theoretical mechanics. Moreover, verbally, which is nonsense here.

Maybe it's about you personally? Well, you did not inspire confidence ...

[Professor]

Quote: bk0010

Quote: professor

And there are non-formal criteria. I was "asked" to retake theoretical mechanics. Moreover, verbally, which is nonsense here.

Maybe it's about you personally? Well, you did not inspire confidence ...

Of course. That is why I was accepted, and the others were not.

[antivirus]

read the drawing and know the liquidus and so on for the construction of spacecraft, there were enough grays. not orchards. chosen by God. and even Selenger and Hemenguei.

!!!! there were many supporters of breaking the shell of a boiled egg from the right side.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: professor

with diplomas not recognized by anyone in the developed world.

what are you? !!!
that is why these "gray" specialists "were torn off with their hands in the west in the 90s
absolute dullness from the design institute where my mother worked in germany was put in a leading position and there were a lot of such examples

[Professor]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

that is why these "gray" specialists "were torn off with their hands in the west in the 90s

Tell fairy tales to those who were not in the West with a Soviet diploma in the 90s. I do not need.

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

absolute dullness from the design institute where my mother worked in germany was put in a leading position and there were a lot of such examples

A leading position for dishwashers?

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: professor

A leading position for dishwashers?

now your bitterness is clear, could not compete with the dishwasher?

[Professor]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Quote: professor

A leading position for dishwashers?

now your bitterness is clear, could not compete with the dishwasher?

I didn't even try. I went to study at a bourgeois university and after graduation I found a job in high-tech.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: professor

I didn't even try. I went to study at a bourgeois university and after graduation I found a job in high-tech.

does it work as an automatic dishwasher opener?

[ABC-schutze]

Yeah ... But an amazing thing. This means that the world's first satellite and the world's first cosmonaut were sent into space by an "undeveloped" country with an uneducated population. She, thanks to her education system, has managed to do not just "cars" or "airplanes". But also to create a developed automobile and aviation industry. And, at the end of the 50s, to lay a solid foundation for the development of OWN and quite competitive and dynamic electronics industry. Moreover, in a situation of tough competition with the "developed" countries ... And she also built the world's first nuclear icebreaker ... At the expense of the "recognition" of a "developed" world of Soviet diplomas, they frankly laughed. The sovereign people's Soviet state prepared, with its system of free and high-quality education of ALL LEVELS and FORMS of training, specialists for its development, and not at all potential vagrants, for some "free" market. Systematically flown in and out and still, from one SYSTEM crisis to another. The inability of the "developed" ones to effectively withstand SYSTEM crises and to predict them IN TIME is a sign of "development" right? ..

[out of habit]

Digital and iota is a good term.

[nikvic46]

Relying on the will of patrons and philanthropists means marking time. Now capitalism in our country is in the making. And this means that there are not so many people willing to share with those in need. Moreover, many nouveau riches created their wealth by not entirely legal methods. in a country where capitalism was established long ago, they make gatherings in between gatherings for needs, in our country it will be difficult for a long time.

[SERGE ANT]

Quote: nikvic46

many nouveau riches created their wealth by not entirely legal methods.

As you put it mildly and politically correctly now ...

It means that there are not so many people willing to share with those in need.

This is so, otherwise we would not send text messages to the treatment of children. And the existing system can hardly be called capitalism, rather it is some kind of wild mixture of capitalism and feudalism in its most ugly manifestations.

[Far B]

If it has not been established for 30 years, then the prospect of its formation generally tends to infinity. Maybe, well, evo nafik, eh?

[Olgovich]

however, it should be noted that higher education received mostly representatives of the highest social strata - children of noblemen, military men, officials, bourgeoisie, intelligentsia.

it is worth noting that this is a gross lie: representatives of the upper classes were minority from students of universities of Russia, and in technical universities - generally a quarter, RAS:

And in Russia there was the MOST accessible university education for the lower strata: in England and France the percentage of those was one third less.

Thus, the Bolsheviks got a heavy legacy.

Thus, they themselves made this legacy by their GV, throwing away and slowing down public education for many years: only ten years after the VOR was it possible to at least restore the number of pre-revolutionary schools.

and by the beginning of the 40s, literacy among the population under the age of 50 was over 90%.

yeah, only those who barely managed to sign were considered "literate", and the real level of literacy was shown by the Resolution already 1957 d of the Central Committee of the CPSU, where it fiercely ... continued to fight against illiteracy.

The Bolsheviks were able to do what the tsars had not done before them: they made a qualitative leap, not only caught up with, but also overtook all the advanced countries of the West.

WHAT is it "overtaken"? In the consumption of food (with their unprecedented hunger strikes in the world)? In clothes? In the amount of housing per person? In freedoms (with their complete lack of freedom of elections, speech, parties, meetings, conscience? In life expectancy? In salary?

They are also silent about the fact that the Bolsheviks rescued historical Russia from complete destruction and seizing her lands other powers.

The author looks out the window and finally see the boundaries 17th century Russia created by these "spasunami" and a bunch of sovereign states that never existed before the VOR, they were stuck together on the body of Russia. The wolf took pity on the mare: he left his tail and mane.

it was a stage in the qualitative historical ascent of Russia, and not a dead-end path of development.

non-dead end does not end in dead end 1991

[Boris55]

Quote: Olgovich

representatives of the upper strata made up a minority of students of Russian universities

Are you saying that the local elite was less educated than the peasants who make up 85% of the population?

Quote: Olgovich

in England and France the percentage was less by a third.

And even more educated than Europe?

Quote: Olgovich

only those who hardly managed to sign were considered "literate"

So it was the Bolsheviks who lowered the level of education that the people began to read with difficulty?

Quote: Olgovich

in WHAT was it "overtaken"?

In principle, two oppositely directed vectors cannot compete.
The USSR is a paradise for everyone. The West is a paradise for the elite.

Quote: Olgovich

non-dead end does not end in dead end 1991

It took them 40 years to do this.

Knowledge is given to the people as needed.
Royal Russia - agrarian country, three classes of parish are enough.
THE USSR - industrialization - seven years and above.
Russia as gas station - enough knowledge of the exam.

Hiding knowledge from the people (all over the world) allows the "elite" to appoint themselves prohibitively high salaries.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Boris55

Are you saying that the local elite was less educated than the peasants who make up 85% of the population?

where is it?

Quote: Boris55

And even more educated than Europe?

it says in Russian that the education of universities for peasants, etc. was MUCH more accessible than for peasants in England

Quote: Boris55

So it was the Bolsheviks who lowered the level of education that the people began to read with difficulty?

no, because of them they learned to read much later than if Russia had survived

Quote: Boris55

In principle, two oppositely directed vectors cannot compete.
The USSR is a paradise for everyone. The West is a paradise for the elite.

tell about paradise to many millions of owls who died of hunger.
By the way, why were you silent about this "paradise", you had to yell so that the oppressed from the capitals of the countries strive even more strongly for socialism.

And yes, the "oppressed" ate many times more meat, milk, etc., than those who were not oppressed in 1937, see CSO

Quote: Boris55

It took them 40 years to do this.

I do not understand, so when was the greatest happiness of the non-oppressed, if not in these 40 years?

Quote: Boris55

Knowledge is given to the people as needed.
Tsarist Russia is an agrarian country, three classes of parish

just read the "work" of the burly dwarf "Development of capitalism in Russia. The process of formation of an internal market for large industry ”, from where you will learn about the rapid development of industry in Russia. And she needed specialists and literate people - from there, and the rapid growth of schools (which you did not have for 10 years) and students in RI

Quote: Boris55

Hiding knowledge from the people (all over the world) allows the "elite" to appoint themselves prohibitively high salaries.

what "knowledge" is not available today?

Do not confuse the Bolsheviks' reign, where EVERYTHING was kept secret from the people even today, when EVERYTHING is open

[Boris55]

We are talking about different periods in the history of Russia (USSR).

Quote: Olgovich

what "knowledge" is not available today?

Management knowledge to be taught from high school.

The knowledge that is given to the people is fragmentary knowledge:
- some are cutting down the forest;
- others plane boards;
- still others put together coffins.
Remove at least one from this circuit and there will be nothing at the output.
But the one who knows the full cycle and how to organize it will never share this knowledge - it is like death for him.

ps
Practice is the criterion of truth. The USSR was building a paradise for everyone. As soon as the USSR collapsed, the number of local millionaires and billionaires significantly exceeded their presence in the entire "progressive" world. Is this not living proof of the superiority of our social organization of society over theirs?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Boris55

Management knowledge to be taught from high school.

I ask again, WHAT is not available today, when EVERYTHING is available ?!

WHAT "management" was taught in high school in the USSR?
What are you carrying?

Quote: Boris55

some are cutting down the forest;
- others plane boards;
- still others put together coffins.
Remove at least one from this circuit and there will be nothing at the output.
But the one who knows the full cycle and how to organize it will never share this knowledge - it is like death for him.

complete nonsense who cobbles together, all the more will be able to process the boards and dump the forest

Quote: Boris55

Practice is the criterion of truth. The USSR was building a paradise for everyone. As soon as the USSR collapsed, the number of local millionaires and billionaires significantly exceeded their presence in the entire "progressive" world. Is this not living proof of the superiority of our social organization of society over theirs?

The proof is that EVERYTHING from that "paradise" rushed at the first opportunity, because coupons for women's panties rakh quarter is hell, not heaven.

[Boris55]

Quote: Olgovich

WHAT "management" was taught in high school in the USSR?

None, and therefore this Chubais managed to separate us all into two Volga.

Quote: Olgovich

complete nonsense who cobbles together, all the more will be able to process the boards and dump the forest

If you have no idea how something is done, you will need half your life to learn this, but even here it is an ambush - by the final grade, more than half of the students, not parents, hate to study and cannot learn on their own.

Quote: Olgovich

The proof is that EVERYTHING from that "paradise" rushed at the first opportunity, because coupons for women's panties rakh quarter is hell, not heaven.

Some rushed for lace panties and where are they now?

The purposeful policy of Khrushchev and his followers destroyed small business in the USSR, drove it underground (the "tsehoviks" did an excellent job of filling the market with consumer goods.) About coupons. A specially held action to drive the people to despair. Warehouses were full of products. Local authorities in the hope that the country will fall apart, and all non-payments and "coupons" can be attributed to the state, which no longer exists and there is no one to ask from. Canned food produced in the USSR, and not only, even 5 years after the period of ubiquitous "defesit", the grandmother traded in the crossings. There was no shortage.

By the way, now we have something similar happening with prices ... Someone really wants to bring the people and arrange another revolution. The government is still coping with these challenges, but in the event of the arrival of their president, the country will again return to the boundlessness of the 90s ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Boris55

If you have no idea how something is done, it will take you half your life to learn how to do it.

Why is this?

The carpenter won't cut the tree? And how!

Quote: Boris55

Some rushed for lace panties and where are they now?

ALL socialist countries and owls of republics rushed FROM "paradise", if you don't remember, back in 1989-91.

Truselya is already a geopolitical reorientation with the long-held economic

Quote: Boris55

Purposeful policy of Khrushchev and his followers destroyed small business in the USSR

drove earlier - with the closure of NEP

Quote: Boris55

A specially held action to bring the people to despair. Warehouses were full of products. Local authorities in the hope that the country will fall apart, and all non-payments and "coupons" can be attributed to the state, which no longer exists and there is no one to ask from.

documents on the table, please! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to organize such an all-Union action without headquarters, THOUSAND documents and TENS thousand performers.

And no, nothing but chatter.

Quote: Boris55

we have something similar happens with prices.

everywhere they grow in the CIS

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Olgovich

It is worth noting that this is a gross lie: representatives of the upper strata made up a minority of students of Russian universities, and in technical universities, in general, a quarter, RAS:

Again you juggle numbers, juggle and do demagoguery. The proportion of nobles in the 1897 census was 1,5%, and the proportion of nobles in the universities according to your table was 38,3%. That is, it is clear that the imbalance in the proportion of students from the nobility is enormous.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Juggling numbers again

juggle "back" -who's in the way? What? Are the numbers tight? That's the same ...

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

The share of nobles according to the 1897 census was 1,5%

Voti show the share of the nobles in the universities of the RSFSR in the 1920s.

What, in general no one? And then what about the shares to the VOR?

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Olgovich

Voti show the share of the nobles in the universities of the RSFSR in the 1920s.

What, no one at all? And then what about the shares to the VOR?

Again, you are engaged in demagoguery and distortion. Vladimir Lenin on November 24, 1917 abolished all class distinctions, and made all Russian citizens equal, henceforth there was no division into nobles and commoners. So there were exactly 0 (ZERO) nobles in the universities of the RSFSR.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Again you are engaged in demagoguery and distortion. Vladimir Lenin on November 24, 1917 abolished all class distinctions, and equalized of all Russian citizens, from now on there was no division into nobles and commoners. So there were exactly 0 (ZERO) nobles in the universities of the RSFSR.

ignoramus, learn what it is LISHEN in the disenfranchised country of the USSR and do not carry illiterate nonsense: they were also deprived of university education and elected rights and so you were "equalized"

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Olgovich

ignorant, learn what a LISHEN is in a powerless country of the USSR and do not carry an illiterate nonsense: they were also deprived of university education and elect rights, and there was such a "equalization" for you

Don't talk nonsense yourself. Lenin himself was a nobleman. In the USSR, the "former" were not deprived of the opportunity to study at universities and were not deprived of the right to participate in elections.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

... Lenin himself was a nobleman. In the USSR, the "former" were not deprived of the opportunity to study at universities and were not deprived of the right to participate in elections.

na, ignoramus: The normative basis for restricting the political rights of part of the population was Article 65 of the Constitution of the RSFSR of 1918, then - Article 69 of the Constitution of the RSFSR of 1925.

In accordance with the Instruction on Elections, citizens of various classes were referred to as "disenfranchised", in particular:

- persons resorting to hired labor for the purpose of making a profit;

.– persons living on unearned income;

- traders and intermediaries;

- clergy (psalmists, priests, shamans);

- administrative exiles and those affected by the rights of the court;

- agents, former landowners, gendarmes;

- family members of the dependents of the aforementioned persons;

- insane and wards ...



Loss of rights



The "liberties" became social outcasts. The deprivation of voting rights entailed a significant deterioration in the material situation of this category of citizens.

A person who found himself on the lists of "disenfranchised" was fired from his job, expelled from the trade union, evicted and his family, raised taxes, deprived of the food "food book", condemning him to death by starvation (in the 1930s).

Members of his family automatically became "deprived" of children, expelled children from schools and universities. At village gatherings, "disenfranchised" were forbidden to attend (c)

[Kot_Kuzya]

Demagogue and liar. Where are the former nobles on this list?

- persons resorting to hired labor for the purpose of making a profit;

.– persons living on unearned income;

- traders and intermediaries;

- clergy (psalmists, priests, shamans);

- administrative exiles and those affected by the rights of the court;

- agents, former landowners, gendarmes;

- family members of the dependents of the aforementioned persons;

- insane and wards ...

In this list, only landowners can be attributed to nobles, and even then not all nobles are landowners. The same parents of Lenin, although they were nobles, were not landowners.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Where are the former nobles on this list?

EVERYWHERE, ignoramus.

And this was the policy of the Soviet apartheid in relation to millions of people: here's to you

Quote: Olgovich

Vladimir Lenin November 24, 1917 equalized all Russian citizens

.

Vile LIE. And so throughout the entire 70 years, not a word of truth.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Since when did the traders, middlemen, kulaks and gendarmes become nobles? You are an ignoramus, you do not even know that only commoners were merchants.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Since when did the traders, middlemen, kulaks and gendarmes become nobles? You are an ignoramus, you do not even know that only commoners were merchants.

1.poke, disgraced ignoramus, you will be yours wifeif, um, yeah

2. Landlords traded, rented out, etc. There are no merchants on the list, but entrepreneurs from other classes were also registered as merchants: nobles, burghers, peasants-Cut on your forehead.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Don't write nonsense! The nobles did not engage in huckstering, it was low for the noble's honor. A nobleman could be a military man, an official, a church minister, a scientist, or at worst just a landowner, living by renting his land, a kind of rentier. It was an unheard of humiliation for a nobleman to stand behind a shop or to trade. It's like plowing the earth yourself or forging iron.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

just a landowner living by renting out his land

hack on the forehead: landlord households and were the main sources of grain for export- either they were the most advanced and efficient.

And the burly Karla, yes, leased the land to the peasants. Burned out ...

[EvilLion]

Well, there are always more merchants and shopkeepers than nobles.

And in Russia there was the MOST accessible university education for the lower strata

You are really sick.

with their unprecedented hunger strikes in the world

Do you even understand that Russia in the 19th century starved every 3-4 years? And there is no way to solve this problem, except for increasing the productivity of agriculture at times, which cannot be done without mechanization, which was done by the Bolsheviks. Although you, after all, that on the forehead, that on the forehead. Even on the Internet, it is difficult to find statistics. It was people like you who fled with the leaflet "Political instructor is lying" into captivity, and then they were very surprised.

[Olgovich]

Quote: EvilLion

You are really sick.

You are really sick

Quote: EvilLion

Do you even understand that Russia in the 19th century starved every 3-4 years?

do you understand that the 20th century is not the 19th?

Will you remember, finally, that in Russia in the 20th century they did not die anymore, and in your country in the middle of the century people ate people?

Quote: EvilLion

except for increasing the productivity of agriculture at times, which cannot be done without mechanization, which was done by the Bolsheviks.

what, in y, "increased productivity, when you barely caught up with the yield of horse fields in 1913 in 1956?"

Quote: EvilLion

Although you, after all, that on the forehead that on the forehead. Even on the Internet, it is difficult to find statistics. It was people like you who ran with the leaflet "Political instructor is lying"

after all, that on the forehead, that on the forehead, but from the Bolshevik "paradise" in 1991 they fled all and amicably and at the earliest opportunity - led by the chief political instructors Shevardnadz and the Gorrachevs and all sorts of smaller ones

[ABC-schutze]

I explain the PRINCIPAL differences, literally "on the fingers" ...

The People's Soviet Power, created and DYNAMICALLY DEVELOPED FOR ALL THE WORKING PEOPLE, not "universities", but the PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM, ALL levels and ALL forms of education. Including the mentioned universities, by the way. This time ... In the cited by you and, in fact, ONCE AGAIN, NOT EXPLAINING ANYTHING "picture", according to the tsarist universities, in particular - "Bourgeois and workers + peasants", constitute a screaming minority. That is, only 38% of the TOTAL number of students. We also add that among the bourgeoisie "added" here were the children of merchants and traders, as well as the "rural bourgeoisie" - in the world - "kulaks" ...

So the thesis of your "counterpart" about the original imprisonment of the tsarist university education for the ruling and economic "elites", and not for the PEOPLE'S EDUCATION, is quite correct ...

By the way, I note that there are EIGHT HIGH SCHOOLS, as opposed to HIGH SCHOOLS, of which there are only FOUR. But in VTUZA, which trained not "managerial cadres" for the ruling system, there are already over 50% of "low-breed" ones ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: ABC-schütze

ovskogo education on the ruling and economic "elite", and not on the PEOPLE'S EDUCATION, is quite correct ...

stupid lie: see tabitsa

[ABC-schutze]

Thank you for the emotional compliment, "dear teacher" ...

Now, as our teacher says, let's move on to the basics of information and analytical work. That is, we will together, under her leadership, learn to UNDERSTAND and use the "info" from the "see table" you mentioned.

Alas, with this case, so far, - FULL "unsatisfactory" ...

According to Stat. document. to the reference book Russia, 1913, the percentage of the PEASANT population in "European Russia" (50 gubernias) is 84.4%. Those. peasants are the TOTAL MOST OF THE POPULATION of the Russian Empire.

And in the tablet, cited by you, "dear teacher", the percentage of peasants who studied in 8 universities under the "king - father" is ONLY 14.4%.

So, it is CORRECT to talk about the "accessibility" or "inaccessibility" of education to the PEOPLE, you can ONLY COMPOSE these TWO INDICATORS, i.e. their TOTAL percentage in the population with the PERCENTAGE of their "representation" in universities ...

And not to engage in cheating speculation "comparing" the percentages of peasants and other "estates" enrolled in tsarist universities.

So Your opponents are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THE FACT of educational DISCRIMINATION OF THE PEASANT POPULATION with a crowned mediocrity is ABSOLUTELY OBVIOUS.

The TOTAL majority of the PEOPLE of the Russian Empire, - PEASANTS, for this, at that time still a PEASANT country, in the universities "represented" - the ABSOLUTE MINORITY.

And it means, lead your tablet in front of yourself and LEARN TO UNDERSTAND THE CONTENT of the information you provide. Whatever happens to you, as always, according to the principle: "I look at the book, I see f-gu" ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: ABC-schütze

So, it is CORRECT to talk about the "accessibility" or "inaccessibility" of education to the PEOPLE, you can ONLY COMPOSE these TWO INDICATORS, i.e. their TOTAL percentage in the population with the PERCENTAGE of their "representation" in universities ...

who gave you the right to give definitions of correctness, Nobody?
It was said that higher education in Russia was much more accessible to the people than in England and France.

And it became more and more accessible: the percentage of nobles fell, the percentage of workers continuously ROS

Quote: ABC-schütze

So Your opponents are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THE FACT of educational DISCRIMINATION OF THE PEASANT POPULATION with a crowned mediocrity is ABSOLUTELY OBVIOUS.

stupid nonsense: the percentage of peasants continuously ROS and if not for the insane coup of stupid mediocrities, would have reached the ratio of estates in society.

Therefore, hang this sign on your forehead and remember: representatives of non-nobles make up the MOST university students and the author and you-lied.

[ABC-schutze]

1. "Who gave you the right to define correctness, Nobody?"
************************************************* **************************** It's an easy question. The topic of the article and the practice of working with information in order to develop OBJECTIVE judgments and CONCLUSIONS ...

2. "It was said that university education in Russia was much more accessible to the people than in England and France."
************************************************** ***************************
And what about the article about INDUSTRIAL "England and France"? .. Where was the PERCENTAGE of literate people in the POPULATION, BY DEFINITION, higher than in the PEASANT and ILLITERATE Russian Empire? .. Or about Russia? ..

In the "accessible" Universities of the Empire, PEASANTS, which in "European Russia", according to the data given by me, were 84.4% of the total number of inhabitants, could they "enter"? ..

Was the training for them paid? .. Or, "like the Bolsheviks," - free? ..

Who prepared the illiterate peasants from the COMPOSITION of this TOTAL MOST to enter the imperial universities "accessible" to them? .. And how? .. Parish priest? .. Captain-police officer? Or a bailiff? .. At the exit? ..

When in Imperial Russia, its "reformer" - and "guardian" for public education, Nicholas II, actually canceled the "flogging" of peasants? .. AND WHAT INCREDIBLE EFFORT AND TIME did it cost him to make this "gracious" decision? ..

And I remind you, once again, all sorts of subjunctive moods, such as "would reach", as well as other "if", for arguments on the forum IN "do not roll". Because, in the context of the period of decline and collapse of the Russian Empire, they NEVER RELY ON EXAMPLES OF LONG-TERM, STRATEGIC PURPOSE of a character who ended his earthly journey in the Ipatyevsky basement. And the resulting LONG-TERM STRATEGIC PLANNING ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: ABC-schütze

easy. The topic of the article and the practice of working with information in order to develop OBJECTIVE judgments and CONCLUSIONS ...

hack on your forehead: you,

SUBJECTIVE Biased, biased


Explanatory dictionary of Ozhegov

no longer

OBJECTIVE,-Unbiased, impartial... Ozhegov's Explanatory Dictionary

Quote: ABC-schütze

And the article about INDUSTRIAL "England and France"?

and MY comment about something else

Quote: ABC-schütze

In the "accessible" Universities of the Empire, PEASANTS, which in "European Russia", according to the data given by me, were 84.4% of the total number of inhabitants, could they "enter"? ..

THIRD time didn’t get it? See the plaque on your forehead.

Quote: ABC-schütze

Or, "like the Bolsheviks," free? ..

such poverty was with you, yes.

Quote: ABC-schütze

Who prepared the illiterate peasants from the COMPOSITION of this TOTAL MOST to enter the imperial universities "accessible" to them? .. And how? .. Parish priest? .. Captain-police officer? Or a bailiff? .. At the exit? ..

When in Imperial Russia, its "reformer" - and "guardian" for public education, Nicholas II, actually canceled the "flogging" of peasants? .. AND WHAT INCREDIBLE EFFORT AND TIME did it cost him to make this "gracious" decision? ..

verbal PNS

Quote: ABC-schütze

And I remind you, once again, all sorts of subjunctive moods, such as "would reach", as well as other "if", for arguments on the forum IN "do not roll".

that's for sure: your communisms and pr isms have remained an empty, crackling, lying BATTLE

Quote: ABC-schütze

Because, in the context of the period of decline and collapse of the Russian Empire, they NEVER RELY ON EXAMPLES OF LONG-TERM, STRATEGIC PURPOSE of a character who ended his earthly journey in the Ipatyevsky basement. And the resulting LONG-TERM STRATEGIC PLANNING.

Ponezh jump out the window and plunge into the blessed world of Bolshevism

What, dumb him? Did you end your uninterruptedly successful journey in the trash heap?
dive again and again into the empty pool until it comes

[bashir141]

Quote: Olgovich

And in Russia there was the MOST accessible university education for the lower strata: in England and France the percentage of those was one third less.

Of course the most affordable.
If only the population of tsarist Russia was 79% illiterate. As at the census in 1897 and at the beginning of the revolution.
Here are data from a statistical collection prepared by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Tsarist Russia in 1915.

[Dart2027]

The author is trying to cross a hedgehog and a snake. First, he proves that RI was actively developing education, then begins an old song about how only the Bolsheviks ... No, the fact that the Bolsheviks resolutely fought against illiteracy is a fact, only that by the the author does not want to recognize them.

[tatra]

And on the basis of what evidence do you assert this? According to the 1897 census, RI had 21% literate, 20 years later - 27% literate.

[Dart2027]

Quote: tatra

And on the basis of what evidence do you claim this

Based on the fact that literacy does not develop by itself, but in connection with the development of industry and the corresponding change in life. The country underwent gradual industrialization and life changed. Nothing new, it was like that all over the world.

[tatra]

Stupidity. If the Romanovs did not need literate people, then they were not involved in the education of the people. And they called foreigners to develop the industry of Ingushetia.

[Dart2027]

Quote: tatra

Stupidity

Self-critical.

Quote: tatra

If the Romanovs did not need literate people, then they were not involved in the education of the people.

Just at the end, they began to study.

Quote: tatra

And they called foreigners to develop the industry of Ingushetia

And who built the industry in the USSR?

[tatra]

What immediately "translated the arrows"?

[Dart2027]

Quote: tatra

translated the arrows

Quote: Dart2027

And who built the industry in the USSR?

So who is it?

[Trapperxnumx]

[quote = tatra] Stupidity. If the Romanovs did not need literate people, then they were not engaged in the education of the people. And they called foreigners to develop the RI industry. [/ Quote]
As you can see from your example, the ability to write and literacy are two different things. The article perfectly shows the figures for the growth of educational institutions and the number of students in them. So the Romanovs did not need literate people that
[quote] there were 1896 thousand primary schools in 78, and in 1914 already over 119 thousand; [/ quote] - an increase of 50%
[/ quote] the number of gymnasiums (secondary educational institutions) in 1892 was 239, and in 1914 - 2300; [/ quote] - an increase of almost tenfold
[/ quote] the number of students in 1896 was 3,8 million, in 1914 - 9,7 million; [/ quote] - more than doubled
[/ quote] the number of teachers in 1896 was 114 thousand, in 1914 - 280 thousand; [/ quote] - more than double growth.
[/ quote] the number of students in 1890 - 12,5 thousand, in 1914 - 127 thousand [/ quote] - a tenfold increase.
And about the level of education in general is a separate song. So, for example, a graduate of a gymnasium spoke several foreign languages ​​at once.

[alstr]

Can you then substantiate how the fact that from 1900 to 1913 out of more than 87 thousand graduates, 26 thousand were lawyers (i.e. 30% of graduates) correlates with the needs of industrialization?
At the same time, the actual engineers (without officers) were released about 14,5 thousand.

[Dart2027]

Quote: alstr

You can then justify how the fact is related

And how many engineers were graduated at that time? Do you want to compare?
Here is a comparative table of Russia and Germany
http://www.zielenski.narod.ru/Engineering-education-2.pdf (лист 70)
And Germany was the leader of Europe.
In fact, even the simple fact that after the revolution and the Civil War with huge casualties and the flight of many engineers and scientists abroad, the country did not turn into Somalia, which clearly indicates a serious margin of safety without which the communists would not have carried out any industrialization.

[alstr]

The question is not about quantitative output, but about percentage.
I don’t understand how 26 thousand lawyers are needed in the industrialization process (and this is a third of all graduates).
If there is a need for industrialization, then engineers (of various specialties) are needed, and not lawyers.
For comparison, during the period of industrialization in the USSR, the number of graduates grew in hundreds of percent, and lawyers and economists in dozens.
So the number of students in 1927 in legal and economic sciences increased by 40-50%, but only in engineering by 208 (compared with 1913).

[Dart2027]

Quote: alstr

This is how 26 thousand lawyers are needed sideways

Don't you know that engineers alone are not enough for the functioning of the state? The lawyers went about their business, like everyone else.

Quote: alstr

For comparison during the period of industrialization in the USSR

For comparison, the USSR was one huge super-corporation in which legal services were needed to a much lesser extent than in the Republic of Ingushetia.

[alstr]

Yes, lawyers are needed. And economists are needed, but the question is the quantity - or rather the proportion. Well, you don't need two lawyers for one engineer. Both a lawyer and an economist are auxiliary personnel. Yes, important, but auxiliary. There should be no more of those who are directly involved in production.

So I didn't get an answer to the question of how twice as many lawyers-economists (as compared to engineers) are connected with industrialization.

PS By the way, I want to remind you that in fact, in the first half of the 20th century, an engineer is not only and not so much a technical worker, but also a leader and at least a little designer. It was a fairly piecemeal product. And even a bad engineer was cool in those days.

Again, recall one of the films where the director of the mine, upon learning that the GM is an engineer, admires: "Engineer !!! Miner !!! Come to us !!!" and immediately gives out good lifting ones and promises to resolve the issue with housing in the near future. At the same time, I did not even ask for qualifications.

It was already in the 70s (maybe a little earlier) that a sea of ​​engineers was divorced and they began to be sent for potatoes. And before that, the engineer will not be sent for potatoes - let him work in his specialty - there are not enough competent people.

[Dart2027]

Quote: alstr

So I didn't get an answer to the question of how twice as many lawyers-economists (as compared to engineers) are connected with industrialization.

Kindly think of an answer as they hinder industrialization? You have received an answer regarding the number of engineers in relation to the most developed country in Europe.

[alstr]

So the answer in the last post: It is not necessary to have 1 economists-lawyers for 2 engineer, but this is if we want to do industrialization.
What happens in this situation, we saw perfectly well in the 90s, when in every dirty technical school they trained economists instead of technicians.
As a result, we got neither normal economists nor techies.

[Dart2027]

Quote: alstr

So the answer in the past post

Quote: Dart2027

And how many engineers were graduated at that time? Do you want to compare?
Here is a comparative table of Russia and Germany
http://www.zielenski.narod.ru/Engineering-education-2.pdf (лист 70)
And Germany was the leader of Europe.
In fact, even the simple fact that after the revolution and the Civil War with huge casualties and the flight of many engineers and scientists abroad, the country did not turn into Somalia, which clearly indicates a serious margin of safety without which the communists would not have carried out any industrialization.

Quote: Dart2027

For comparison, the USSR was one huge super-corporation in which legal services were needed to a much lesser extent than in the Republic of Ingushetia.

Quote: alstr

we saw perfectly well in the 90s when economists were trained instead of technicians in every dirty technical school

This was not the case in RI.

[ABC-schutze]

The remembered "life" in the Russian Empire, "changed" by itself? of the "ruling elites" of the absolute monarchy? .. Including the monarch himself?

[Dart2027]

Quote: ABC-schütze

The remembered "life" in the Russian Empire, "changed" by itself

Nothing happens by itself.

[north 2]

Since the Church has appropriated to herself that she is the mediator between God in heaven and man on Earth, it was unprofitable for the Church that man would be educated. Because then a person can begin to doubt not so much the existence of God in heaven, but rather whether an intermediary is needed between God in heaven and man on Earth in the form of the Church. Simply put, but in the words of Emile Zola: "Civilization will not reach its perfection until the last stone of the last church falls on the head of the last priest." As you can see, the great Frenchman did not say a word about God, but he very much doubted the need for the Church. So this is Zola who believed in God! And even more the Church was shocked by the atheist called Voltaire, when the dying philosopher-enlightener was nevertheless brought in a priest. To the priest's question - where after death the writer would still like to go - to hell or to Paradise, Voltaire replied, - that, of course, there are very good conditions in Paradise, but what kind of company will gather in hell! The priest, after such words, was speechless and, waking up, burst into curses at Voltaire, although Voltaire told only the real truth, not denying the existence of either God, or Heaven, or Hell. And even the Church did not like this truth ... So what kind of mediator is there between God in heaven and man on Earth. if the truth is unacceptable to this mediator ...

[Moskovit]

That you have stuck to the church. Why are priests forbidding you to study? Why drag agitation from the 18th and 19th centuries.

[north 2]

so, after all, the pictures of Bogdan-Belsky, which illustrate the article, are "drawn" from the 19th century!

[tatra]

Yes, no one — neither the Romanovs, nor the bourgeoisie, nor the Church, needed an educated people. And Alexander III, now praised by Putin, issued a decree on "cook's children."
Likewise, those who praise "The Russia We Lost" do not need smart, talented, well-educated, good professionals in their work.

[Boris55]

Quote: tatra

smart, talented, well-educated, good professionals are not needed

Knowledge that has no application is dead.
First, we set great goals and only then we prepare professionals for this.

Quote: tatra

Alexander III, now praised by Putin

The President periodically focuses our attention on a particular person, including so that we would have a reason to discuss it. The circular "about the cook's children" was the beginning of the degradation of that "elite" and the collapse of tsarist Russia.

ps
Circular "On the reduction of gymnasium education", nicknamed "the circular on cook's children," - a normative act of the period of counterreforms, подписанный 18 (30) June 1887 Russian Minister of Education I.D.Delyanov.

[tatra]

Ha, and Alexander III "has nothing to do with it", as did the enemies of the communists, both Nicholas II and Putin had nothing to do with everything bad that was and is during their rule?
"On June 30, 1887, a decree was passed in Russia prohibiting the admission of commoners' children to the gymnasium (" the decree on the cook's children "). With regard to the children of commoners, Alexander III left a clear and vivid resolution, personally tracing a peasant woman on the testimony in court, saying that her the son wants to study: “This is awful - a man, but he also climbs into the gymnasium!”,.

Alexander III did not talk much about the role of the state in higher education, professing a much simpler approach to the state of the country, almost 90 percent of whose population did not even know how to read and write. "And thank God!" - he imposed a resolution on a report from the Tobolsk province, reporting on the low literacy in it. "

[parusnik]

and classical and high-quality education will remain only for the “elite”.

... They will break what is left and everything will go on a new one.

[Reptiloid]

good morning, Alexey!

Quote: parusnik

and classical and high-quality education will remain only for the “elite”.

... They will break what is left and everything will go on a new one.

I suppose that by breaking down, quality education for the elite will also disappear. If most of the education is of poor quality, then the bar will not be kept high. If the population of the Russian Federation is 146 by 171, and the number of millionaires is about 015, then degradation will come there too. Despite the fact that many of those children are not interested in learning.

[paul3390]

There is also the question of what kind of education it is .. Children like the elite, if they learn, are all sorts of managers, lawyers, economists and other evil spirits. And who will be an engineer, technologist, doctor, scientist, etc., etc.? Already, at least a quarter of doctors in polyclinics are Asians of all stripes with incomprehensible diplomas. With all that it implies. What will happen next?

[Reptiloid]

Quote: paul3390

..... Children like the elite, if they learn - then on all sorts of managers, lawyers, economists and other evil spirits. And who will be an engineer, technologist, doctor, scientist, etc., etc.? .....

About the kids --- yes! There is HSE, there is management, there is lending (paid, where neither accounting nor taxation is studied)
As for medicine, I will try to repeat the observations of my mother. She often goes to the clinic and with doctors - a lot.
Yes, there are doctors who, working in clinics for the poor (this is the name for district polyclinics), behave dismissively, and some scold at the workplace of the USSR, where they received their education and the Russian Federation.
Most doctors, according to my mother, behave with dignity, sincerely want to help the people who have come, but how to help? A doctor should be not just a doctor, but some kind of visionary. Neurologist - 10 minutes per patient, surgeon - 15 minutes, therapist - 10, and so on, no more. And there are also 2-3 numbers at one time, they are registered in different places. And other doctors, seriously ill patients can add
About Asians and young doctors. All the young doctors with whom she talked --- my mother very much praised and this winter and the ambulance repeatedly to her. And she called there with thanks later.
Doctors from the former republics of the USSR are probably their best representatives, (according to their words) the profession of a doctor is highly respected with them. I myself was in the ambulance at the Military Medical Academy (surgery) there are many from the former republics --- the reviews are good.
Now there are websites about doctors. All you need to go to the search engine is your full name, specialization, city, and everything will be - a diploma, advanced training, reviews.
.

[gsev]

Quote: paul3390

There is also the question of what kind of education it is .. Children like the elite, if they study, are all sorts of managers, lawyers, economists and other evil spirits. And who will be an engineer, technologist, doctor, scientist, etc., etc.?

Currently, it is quite difficult for a lawyer and economist to find a job in Russia. Lawyers' salaries are falling, workers, agronomists and engineers are growing.

[paul3390]

And what to do with the host of spawning parasites? To retrain agronomists? Duc will not work - they are not accustomed to doing anything useful ..

[Dart2027]

Quote: gsev

Currently, it is quite difficult for a lawyer and economist to find a job in Russia.

Ironically, but this is the same hand of the market - since the mid-90s they have been produced in immeasurable quantities, and as a result, there is an overabundance.

[tatra]

Why the enemies of the communists need myths about "wonderful Russia" BEFORE the October Revolution, has long been clear. They captured the USSR only in order to, at the expense of their country and people, become the same rich and richest parasites on the neck of a poor, disenfranchised people that the Bolsheviks threw off, and to justify their capture of the USSR, they absolutely had to slander those from whom they took the country , and create myths, as BEFORE those from whom they took the country - everything was wonderful "Russia fed the whole world, and rushed ahead of the rest of the planet."

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: tatra

Why the enemies of the communists need myths about "wonderful Russia" BEFORE the October Revolution, has long been clear. They captured the USSR only in order to, at the expense of their country and people, become the same rich and richest parasites on the neck of a poor, disenfranchised people that the Bolsheviks threw off, and to justify their capture of the USSR, they absolutely had to slander those from whom they took the country , and create myths, as BEFORE those from whom they took the country - everything was wonderful "Russia fed the whole world, and rushed ahead of the rest of the planet."

In 1991, the same communists or their children came to power in Russia. Among the top leadership of the USSR in the 80s, there is not a single person who came from abroad.
So all the enemies of the communists were raised by the communists themselves from among their own.

[stalkerwalker]

Let's return to the known data on the level of education in the Red Army.
...But according to the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, from 1918 to 1941, 3 people received secondary education in the USSR. If we discard women, dead and unfit for military service, then among the military by June 829, 000 there were no more than 22 million people with a secondary education. It cannot be denied that the Soviet government has done a great deal. For comparison: in 1941, among the rank and file of the Russian army, there were only 1,5 people with secondary education. And in total there were 1913 thousand literate people in the army, 1480 thousand illiterate, and 604 thousand illiterate people. Note that it was about a cadre and ethnically homogeneous army. Foreigners who were illiterate and poorly familiar with the Russian language were not taken into the tsarist army at all. So there is a qualitative leap in literacy in the first twenty years of Soviet power, but, alas, we were still lagging behind Germany in this regard....
A. Shirokorad. "Tank War on the Eastern Front" .
The average level of education of the Wehrmacht soldiers in 1941 was 9 classes. By that time, our average level of education was 4 classes.

[Konnick]

For comparison: in 1913, among the rank and file of the Russian army, there were only 1480 people with secondary education.

And then most likely they were crossings. In his commentary, he cited an excerpt from one book, read it.

[your1970]

Quote: stalkerwalker

The average level of education of the Wehrmacht soldiers in 1941 was 9 classes. By that time, our average level of education was 4 classes.

This is confirmed by the low technical level of literacy ....
Losses of SVT with scanty difficulties

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: your1970

As evidenced by the low technical literacy level ...

Well, yes ... the Achilles heel of the Red Army.

[your1970]

While there was STAFF Red Army - the Germans were surprised at the density of infantry rifle and machine gun fire (ABC + SVT + Maxim) of our defense ..
The frames ended - and the era of Mosin began, which can be ditched, well, perhaps with a sledgehammer

[Konnick]

The most objective information is information from witnesses of that time. I will cite a small excerpt from the book "Sentimental Journey", written in 1923 by Viktor Borisovich Shklovsky in Berlin. Shklovsky was the commissar of the Provisional Government and took part in the 1917 summer offensive. He is also the prototype of Shpolyansky from Bulgakov's White Guard.

"The fate of our officers is deeply tragic. They were not children of the bourgeoisie and landowners, at least in their main mass ..."

And then everywhere there are only Golitsyn and Dolgoruky. Continue

".... The officers were almost equal in their qualitative and quantitative composition to the whole number of at least a few literate people that was in Russia. Everyone who could be promoted to officers was promoted. Good or bad were these people - there were no others, and it was necessary to take care of them. A literate person not in an officer's suit was a rarity, a clerk was a jewel. SOMETIMES HUGE ECHELON WAS COME, AND IN HIM WAS NOT A SINGLE LITERATE PERSON, SO SOMEONE WAS READING THE LIST.
The only exceptions were Jews. Jews were not made (approx. In officers). At one time, they did not produce me, as a son of a Jew and a half-Jew by blood. Therefore, in the army, a very large part of the literate and more or less developed soldiers turned out to be precisely Jews. They went to the committees ... "

[Aviator_]

Jews were not promoted to officers. Vykrestov - very much even produced, especially with their literacy.

[Konnick]

What did I say wrong? Baptized people may have been produced, but it seems to me very reluctantly. For example, I do not remember the officers from the crossings.

[Konnick]

Some ... minus, I had to look

The situation changed during the reign of Nicholas II, when the concept of "Jewry" began to be defined not so much by religious as by racial criteria. By the Highest order of 11.05.1910, Jews - lower ranks, "no matter what religion they were", were no longer allowed to take the officer's exam. On September 10.09.1910, 12.05.1912, the Minister of War banned the admission of Jewish volunteers to serve in the garrisons of fortresses, and on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, the General Staff ordered to extend all the restrictions imposed on "Talmudic Jews" by the "Schedule of the Permissible Number of Gentiles in the Officers' Corps" to all Jews regardless from their creed

Even very produced

... said Aviator and quietly went to the synagogue or church.

[Aviator_]

... said the Aviator and quietly went to the synagogue or church.

Once in the synagogue, Romka Neymark (a brawler, drunkard and womanizer - in general, a wonderful person), with whom I worked for a long time (then he left for the United States), told me about his father-in-law's father, a warrant officer of the WWII model of 1916. From the crossings. A very interesting biography.

[boris epstein]

A graduate of the school of warrant officers under the tsar, who studied at the Advanced training courses for command personnel in the USSR, colonel commander of a division in 1941 and commander of a combined-arms army in 1945, Colonel-General Yakov Mikhailovich Kreizer. In 1941, the Nazis dropped leaflets to the soldiers of his division: "Kill your Jew -commander and surrender! " But the soldiers of his division preferred to leave the encirclement and continue to fight under his command. The commander of a tank brigade in the 3rd Guards Tank Army PS Rybalko, Colonel, twice Hero of the Soviet Union David Dragunsky, who was defended by Pavel Rybalko himself before Stalin.

[Konnick]

A graduate of the school of warrant officers under the tsar, who studied at the Advanced training courses for command personnel under the USSR, colonel division commander in 1941 and commander of the combined arms army in 1945, colonel-general crossover Yakov Mikhailovich Kreizer

He already studied at the courses of commanders under the Soviet Power. Yakov GRIGORIEVICH Kreiser did not study at the school of ensigns, he was born in 1905. You need to know your own. He met the revolution as a 12-year-old ... an ensign

[boris epstein]

So the Heroes of the Soviet Union Kreiser and Dragoonsky are not yours for you? And twice Hero of the Soviet Union, cosmonaut Volynov (also a Jew) is also not his own? And listen to Jacob Kedmi! Yes, there is no better, most powerful foreign defender of Russia now! And people like you, at one time survived him and others like him from the USSR. And now the enemies of Russia say thank you to people like you.
For me, ALL heroes, no matter what nationality they are, are OWN. So you are not Russian. They all defended and glorified the USSR / Russia.

[Konnick]

They all defended and glorified the USSR / Russia.

I have nothing against them, but I left a comment not about that, I have no complexes in relation to Jews, I have many good Jewish friends. And the comment was about the officers of tsarist Russia. Only Soviet Power gave equal rights to everyone and education became available to everyone, officer ranks became available to everyone, regardless of nationality. And I didn’t kick Kedmi out, he wanted to leave very much, and now he came back for royalties, but for some reason when I met him in the metro, he realized that I recognized him and quickly moved to another carriage ... conspirator he is some kind of muddy. And for example, Joseph Brodsky was expelled from Russia by his fellow tribesmen, unlike Kedmi, but I consider Brodsky, like Pushkin, to be Russian poets, regardless of origin. Also, Kreiser was a Russian commander such as Bagration and Barclay de Tolly.

And in the paintings of Bogdanov-Belsky, this article depicts the school of Rachinsky Sergei Alexandrovich, a Russian pedagogue-ascetic, friend and teacher of the artist Bogdanov-Belsky, although Rachinsky was also from the Polish gentry, but he is a Russian teacher. There is no need to isolate yourself from the people and constantly focus on your nationality, by the way, my martial arts coach was Epstein and I respected him very much.

[boris epstein]

Okay, God is with her, with the topic of Jews, especially since I am not a Jew and I have already explained this in VO. There are people with the last name Epstein and Jews and Germans. Nikolai Semenovich is a pre-war footballer, player of the USSR national team. After the war, he was one of the first ice hockey players and the creator of the hockey team "Chemist" Voskresensk. According to another Epstein's chemistry textbook, they studied for a long time in higher educational institutions of the USSR. Another Epstein was one of the founders of the theory of walking in cavitation, as a result of which the Shkval rocket-torpedo was created. But there was a general of the Wehrmacht, a purebred German Epstein. Translated into Russian, the word itself means Ep-hard, matte-stone. This corresponds to my character. But now there is a question: Who is the minus?

[Aviator_]

A sensible article, for once. Respect to the author, it is growing.

[xorek]

Quote: Aviator_

A sensible article, for once. Respect to the author, it is growing.

Not everyone likes it, judging by the active cons.

[xorek]

Why do we need a myth about literate tsarist Russia

Well, certain forces want to drive Russia into serfdom, etc. To rob with impunity ..
Stalin showed the whole world what can be created from the Tsarist bourgeois Empire ..
He took the country plundered and drenched in blood .. He left it as a nuclear power and a huge territory with developed industry and science .. And the space program was still being created under him ..
How long has passed, and Russia cannot be plundered .. Such things are going on in counterintelligence.

[Konnick]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Interestingly, in Japan in the XNUMXth century, literacy was somewhere at the Russian level. And at the end of the century, illiteracy was eliminated. Above. Without revolutions and hanging on poles. And for some reason in the Russian elite there was a conviction that the literacy of the people would certainly push them to revolt. M. b. even this confidence was not false - it was too painful for the elite to get drunk at the national expense.

How without a revolution?
Even with the Civil War, there was the Meiji Revolution. For those who do not want to study history, you can watch "The Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise and Ken Watanabe. Recommend.

[Time traveller]

In one of the editions of TSB there is an article on literacy, which contains a table of illiteracy among conscripts before the revolution. By 1913, as far as I remember, 25% of them were illiterate. So over 80% of literate children and adolescents by 1920, in the light of this, is a very likely indicator of the work of the tsarist primary schools.
Some critics argue that before the revolution, anyone who could sign was considered literate. I have a collection of pre-war household photographs, many of which, as was customary at the time, have inscriptions. Judging by them, even in the 1930s, many Red Army soldiers were far from shining with literacy. Despite the fact that they were already graduating from Soviet schools.

[Nord11]

Well, actually, it was just the arrogance of those in power that provoked the desire of the people to organize periodic cutting, so that they would descend from heaven. We noticed that in countries where the elites loved to poke others in the nose with their welfare, they were cut out more often in the course of popular unrest. In the same England, boasting was not accepted, you will not see the mansions of the nobility, they are always in the depths of private land holdings, where you simply cannot get to without the invitation of the owners. The only exception is royal castles and palaces, but they are considered a showcase of the empire there and do not annoy the people. It is not customary in Russia to hide one's successes in life, for which the well-fed of this world sometimes have to pay ..

[Frank Muller]

For rent, we are not returning, but have already returned to the past. Only in a new, more technological manner. Recently I dropped in to see a friend of mine (a teacher at the Polytechnic Institute), who, in my presence, arranged an overclocking for his first-year students. He was beside himself with rage: “Scoundrels! Yesterday's schoolchildren do not know what a logarithm is and how it is taken! They take a calculator in their hands and manipulate the keys, completely without giving any account of the essence of the content! ". And he drove everyone to retake the test. One involuntarily recalls the words of Georg Hegel: “Rulers, statesmen and nations are strongly advised to draw teachings from the experience of history. But experience and history teach that peoples and governments have never learned anything from history and have not acted according to the teachings that could be drawn from it. " Simply put, history teaches that it teaches nothing.

[EvilLion]

Nizam will be enough to be able to use digital devices (be digital idiots)

One thing that touches me and surprises me in such passages. Who will feed these very illiterate lower classes if they are so stupid that they can only poke at smartphones? A commoner should not consume goods, but produce them, and the growth in the level of education is solely due to the fact that technology became more and more complicated, which means that the mass worker had to master an ever higher level of qualifications, at the same time, financial and social relations became more complicated, and people simply inevitably became must be literate, the modern level of office work at the beginning of the 20th century, even in more developed countries, simply would not work.

Why the author is dragging a stupid picture "Oral Account" I do not know, but one in LJ, somehow, using this letter as an example, rubbed it with paints that it was like in the Empire, it was great, what a difficult matan the peasant children solve. Although the story there is just very sad for the fanatics of Nicolas II the Bloody and his august ancestors, it is already clear from the picture that there are no girls there, that is, education is not provided for women. Well, and the most important point, this whole Rachinsky school existed solely thanks to the "kindness" of this same Rachinsky, who, having a huge estate and consuming for a whole village (compare corny his clothes and the clothes of the children in the picture, the other in the same LJ somehow rubbed using the example of the photo of the 60s, where in a peasant family only the head has boots, and the rest of the bast shoes, how bad it was under the Bolsheviks, although the difference in the quality of clothes in general between this photo and the end of the 19th century, and the fact that picture, colossal, well, and in general it is clear that the collective farmers are already accustomed to take care of themselves, in contrast to the unwashed tsarist pisants in mat) deigned to allocate crumbs and teach a little peasant children. The Russian state did not put a finger on a finger for this. The fact that the graduates of this school massively achieved success also suggests that at least some literate people were in short supply, it is now 10 classes and knowledge of derivatives with integrals does not give much anything, since millions have a similar level of education, in fact it even exceeds the objective ability of the population to learn.

[Old Orc]

In response to your comment, we can say that with the complication of the production process, it is not necessary to increase the general level of education. It will be enough to deepen the process of fragmentation and specialization. About Ford there were people cogs now there will be people "beats"

[EvilLion]

Actually, a machine tool operator under Ford is a more complex job than a machine tool operator now, when a lot is automated. Many operations not only had to be known, they had to be memorized at the level of muscle memory. Actually, therefore, there are fewer workers now, and there are more programmers and an outright add-on, which earns, for example, video clips on a YouTube tube.

[Old Orc]

In 30 years it would be easier to say. "The question has all the signs of a class struggle. The bourgeois class, in order to reduce the activity of the proletarian class and its class consciousness, is doing everything to fool the people."

[Cynic]

It's not funny, we learned to lie, telling the truth! Everything was launched
reform of 1804, aimed at the formation of a 4-stage educational system ...

[Yuriy71]

The exam is our everything! Do you know, dear ones, that the USE was invented in the USA as a means of "Socialization" and return to the DOWN Society! and similar patients !? Unified State Exam - after a generation - two generations Leads to a complete debility of the population! Earlier in Russia they laughed - what Stupid Americans! But now we have the same thing !!! The process of stupidity is underway!

[your1970]

Quote: Yuriy71

The exam is our everything! Do you know, dear ones, that the USE was invented in the USA as a means of "Socialization" and return to the DOWN Society! and similar patients !? Unified State Exam - after a generation - two generations Leads to a complete debility of the population! Earlier in Russia they laughed - what Stupid Americans! But now we have the same thing !!! The process of stupidity is underway!

The trouble is that bourgeois don't need stupid people to make money - they need as much as possible highly paid workers. Janitors will not buy an iPhone or a Mercedes, and no one will give them a mortgage, and they will not give them a loan of 2-3 million. And the lower the level of education and, accordingly, salaries, the lower the food supply for the bourgeoisie. Automatically....

The USA bloomed and smelled due to the fact that their salaries were high ...

[Kostadinov]

I will not say anything about a copy of the 1-in-1 Tupolev American bomber.

They copied the appearance from a tactical purpose. But American engines did not beat and Soviet ones were used, and the engine is half of the plane. The weapon is also Soviet.

The Royal Rocket was a copy of the F-1 and was created with the participation of German specialists. Even less famous ones.

V-1 is a krylate rocket, V-2 is ballistic. German rocket specialists in the USSR were beaten only by two minor ones (one for oxygen and the second for control systems), all the rest were tertiary and below. All first-class and second-class + all finished products and drawings went to the Americans.
The difference between the V-2 and the royal seven is roughly how the Wright brothers' plane relates to the B-29.

And by the way, the Americans lagged behind the Gagarin launch by only a few weeks.

The Americans have lagged behind the seven for a long time.

And they really stole everything.

Both the Americans and the Soviets got quite legitimate trophies of war for which they paid in blood.

[Andybuts]

It is surprising how one author can write such a sane article and at the same time "A turn in Russia to the east is inevitable."

[Lew]

Fuck knows how. But my father was born in 1917. I graduated from 3 classes of TsPSh, then 4 more classes of secondary schools in a neighboring village, then, after the 7th grade of FZU. It is enough that engineers come to him to consult with their developments and patents.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

TsPSh - under Soviet rule?

[Lew]

yes, that was Russia at that time ... Or do you think that Russia is Leningrad and Moscow?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Leningrad and Moscow are also Russia. This is not my opinion, this is a fact. I asked: were there parish schools in the USSR in the 1920s? Something new!

[Lew]

Apparently for you, yes, new ... but for example, for the middle Urals of that time, routine ...

[Sugar Honeyovich]

It seems not just for me. I have a relative, a Permian, also born in 1917, he said that until 1930, in which the church was closed, they did not issue a birth certificate in the registry office without a baptismal certificate. But he studied at the ShKM, not the TsPSh.

[Lew]

this will not cancel or refute the father's place of study.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

This is not. But this is the first time I hear that there were TsPShs in the USSR. And the law of God was taught there?

[Lew]

something always happens the first time.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Lew

something always happens the first time.

It's right. But - was the law of God taught in that school at that time or not? And - if not a secret - where was this school located, in what locality?

[Lew]

pos. We hang. Nizhny Tagil province, or whatever was there before, well, definitely not a district ..

[Redsun]

At first, the article seemed adequate. But no, they have again slipped into "digital idiots". How these "" will earn their bread, the author will not answer. Probably in the future competition will disappear, the need for technical and humanitarian specialists, skilled workers will disappear. I'm afraid the author does not even know that an IT specialist sometimes knows physics, mathematics, biology as well as his computer, does not imagine an ordinary employee of an enterprise producing the same smartphone. The author apparently thinks that in the IT industry, incomprehensible people are only engaged in "poking at buttons and screens". Digital, yeah ...

[hjvtp1966]

The general ability to write one's own surname in the election billboard is a very dubious achievement. So what if my grandmother learned to print her name? What, from this, the person became different? Could, there, read the document, understand the instruction or the charter? A purely propagandistic achievement, like many other Bolsheviks. Maximum, it made it possible to read the inscription on the poster. I think this was the only thing the Bolsheviks needed. All posters were only from them and about them. And before television with the Solovyovs, there were no other visual ways to "reach the masses". Without education, reading is not worth much. This is probably why it is called a succinct word - education. And with this we are still bad.

[Angry sailor]

Pure observation. Our people began to have problems with the advancement of science, when this activity became allowed to the privileged class only. There were those who were against, there were. Especially troubles began with the arrival of foreign specialists, all this nonsense: the Dutch, the Germans and others who made up our history.
Tatishchev, Lomonosov, Lodygin and others. It was these people who saved our education. And some had such plans that the agents became scared! It is necessary, to take and wish the Lapotnik-Pomor to build his own School, this is the unacceptable arrogance of the Slavs! And now what?!?

[Angry sailor]

Today neither (Imperial) Russia, nor Princely, nor Soviet Russia is profitable. But if we know how to think that, it means that all is not lost yet !!! For the airborne forces.

[Ivan Okhalnikov]

ARKKKISARKKKISARKRK

[MAVr964]

The author is mistaken .... Not a literate village ..... My grandfather would have thrown a rotten egg .....
Ural, village, my grandfather is a fist. And he knew how to write and read. Otherwise, you will not keep track of the economy. And not only he was literate in the village. Don't la la ...

[ppgt90]

In 1736, the official documents of government agencies for the first time mentioned Leonty Shamshurenkov, the inventor of unique lifting machines and a "self-running wheelchair", the first mechanical carriage in Russia. Shamshurenko from serfs. M.V. Lomonosov was born in the village of Mishaninskaya Kurostrovskaya volost, Dvinsky district, Arkhangelsk province, in a family of peasants. Andrey Konstantinovich Nartov (1693-1756) - Russian scientist, mechanic and sculptor, inventor of the world's first screw-cutting lathe with a mechanized support and a set of interchangeable gear wheels. Ivan Polzunov was born on March 14, 1728 in Yekaterinburg in the family of a soldier of state construction works, a native of the peasants of the Turin district of the Tobolsk province. The main contribution to the creation of the light bulb was made by Russian engineers Pavel Nikolaevich Yablochkov and Alexander Nikolaevich Lodygin.
In 1875, the talented inventor Pavel Nikolayevich Yablochkov (1847-1894), placing coals in parallel and dividing the gap between them with an insulating substance that can evaporate as they burn, created an "electric candle. The list of talented inventors from the common people can be continued for a long time. Author. You oh What are you broadcasting now? After all, the revolution in Russia was carried out by half-educated people from the middle class and the nobility. So there is no need to distort the historical facts. And most importantly, what were the names of the revolutionaries? After all, they remained in the history of Russia under pseudonyms. That's how it is.

[Andrey Nenakhov]

my grandmother was illiterate all my life! 1904-1987 Ostrov, Pskov region and what?

[Berg berg]

In tsarist Russia, almost every family had a Bible in their home, which they read and studied by heart! My grandmother read it to me, she was born in 1900. and I believe her, and the mess began when they began to fight against clergy and began to take away church books, and then they changed the spelling and spelling, removed three letters, and made the fourth rarely used. These are our restructuring.

[srha]

If you take a closer look at the 1897 census, you can find out that a citizen who could read three words indicated in the explanations to the census was indicated as literate in it. Those. did not graduate from elementary school, but somewhere learned to disassemble the signs on the shops, which means not quite in the sense of the word "literate" that we now understand. This is what lovers of French bread crunch use.

[Oleg Malkov]

One should not rush from one extreme to the other, especially since the results of the 1920 census in the context of the Civil War and foreign intervention cannot be considered representative at all, since then the census would only be conducted in a limited part of the country under the rule of the Bolsheviks, and among certain social circles. , on which the Bolsheviks relied, and these are precisely the most poorly educated strata of the population, which is why the level of illiterates is so high.
Still, most of the literate and educated part of the population of Russia at that time opposed the Bolsheviks and did not take part in such censuses. This amendment must be taken into account.
If we talk about literacy in pre-revolutionary Russia, then since the time of Prince Vladimir, as the birch bark letters prove, it has always been distinguished by a higher prevalence of literacy among the population than the same Europe, where literacy has always been the lot of the privileged strata.
During the Baptism of Rus, Prince Vladimir first of all began to build schools for teaching Church Slavonic Slavic children, so that they could read the Word of God. And this tradition has been preserved in Russia for centuries. This tradition was preserved by the Old Believers, who, during the Nikon reform in the 17th century, retired and continued, and still continue to teach their children to read and write in their families.
But the bulk of the Russian peasantry fell under the pro-European reforms, first under Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich, and then his son Peter, which led to an increase in serfdom and the actual enslavement of the peasants. Maximum serfs were enslaved under Catherine. At the same time, age-old traditions were completely destroyed, incl. literacy training in peasant families (which the Old Believers preserved), the serf turned into a powerless commodity, families were destroyed at the will of the landowner. It was the pro-European serfdom, intensified under Peter and Catherine, that led to the illiteracy of a significant part of the Russian serfs.
However, serfs have always made up no more than half of the Russian population of Russia. Half of the population of Russia belonged to the free classes: nobles, service people, merchants, artisans, free farmers, Pomors, Cossacks, from the 17th century Old Believers (schismatics) were added to them, and from the 18th century - commoners, and from the second half of the 19th century - the proletariat (hired workers of industrial enterprises). Among the free estates (except for low-skilled workers), literacy has always been very high, up to the general level.
And this, if we talk about the Russian part of the population of Russia.
Poles, Balts, Finns were not much different from Russians in terms of literacy, even despite the fact that, by the great will of the Russian Tsar Alexander I, serfdom in these lands was abolished earlier than in the rest of Russia (this was the national policy of the Russian state).
Jews, who constituted a significant part of the population of the western and southwestern territories of Russia, were also polls of literacy, since they underwent religious training (Judaism), similar to the one that Prince Vladimir introduced for the Christian education of Russians and which the Old Believers, Pomors and Cossacks kept in their families. ...
A high percentage of literate people were among the Christians of the Caucasus.
But among the Muslim, Buddhist and pagan (shamanic) peoples of Russia, the percentage of illiterates has traditionally been very high, often exceeding 90 percent, since, unlike Orthodox Christianity and Judaism, these religions lacked a book tradition.
So the issue of literacy in Russia is not as simple as it might seem at first glance, and therefore one should not go to extremes.
By the way, the reform of the Russian alphabet, which was carried out by the Bolsheviks in 1918 and left only 33 letters in our alphabet, was by no means prepared by the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks just completed it.
Therefore, it is more correct to say that in Russia the spread of literacy among the population in all centuries was given great importance, starting with Prince Vladimir. A slight drop in the level of literacy of the population was associated precisely with the enthusiasm for Europe in the 17th and 19th centuries, the introduction of the European tradition of dividing culture into elite and common people (which was not the case before Peter) and the strengthening of serfdom, which turned serfs into piece goods. However, this period was quite short in Russian history, and already from the middle of the 19th century, especially after the abolition of serfdom, the wide spread of literacy among the population again became the main idea of ​​Russian society and Russian government.
The Bolsheviks only continued this tradition with their characteristic sweep and radicalism. The only distinguishing feature of the Bolsheviks is that they extended the campaign to eradicate illiteracy (educational program) not only to Russians, but in general to all the peoples of the Soviet Union. At the same time, national languages ​​and cultures began to develop sharply, up to the forcible indigenousization (nationalization) of the entire population of the territory, which the Bolsheviks designated as national. This, by the way, is the source of the current interethnic tensions, especially between peoples close in language and culture: not only between Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine, but, for example, between Bashkirs and Tatars in Bashkortostan.
So it is not worthwhile to consider this problem so primitively, trying to oppose the spread of literacy under the tsar and under the Bolsheviks.
It would be more correct to pay attention not to the spread of literacy among (here, I repeat, the Bolsheviks only continued the traditions of tsarist Russia), but to the level of literacy.
Undoubtedly, under the Bolsheviks, an unprecedented level of literacy of the population was achieved, first through compulsory primary education, then through compulsory incomplete secondary, and then through compulsory secondary.

[akaMelnar]

Later documents of the Central Statistical Office of 1922-1923 indicate the literacy of the population according to the results of the 1920 census - more than 37%. There is a breakdown by age, but not noted by Bishop Tikhon from 12 to 16 years, but from 8 to 15 years. 49% of children aged 8–15 are literate.

Among these CSO documents there is a book “Literacy in Russia” from 1922, there is a more detailed breakdown by age. For 12 years old, literacy per thousand boys is 695, girls - 554, on average - 624. For 16 years old - 750, 524 and 630, respectively. The highest literacy was among men 20-24 years old - 818 people out of 1000. It is not clear where 86% came from.

It is worth remembering that during the 1920 census, the criteria for assessing literacy were expanded as much as possible - those who could read syllables and write their last name in their native or Russian language were considered literate.

We should also not forget that the criteria for literacy were exactly the same in the following censuses - 1926, 1937, 1939 and even 1959. Of course, the quality of education generally improved during this time, but the literacy rate remained the same. Actually, it was not even necessary to write the last name; the ability to read is already a sufficient criterion for summary statistics.