Military Review

Kapitsa was mistaken when assessing the prospects for alternative energy

240

Biogas tank, photovoltaic panels and wind turbine. Photo: wikipedia.org


On October 8, 1975, Academician Pyotr Leonidovich Kapitsa spoke at a scientific session dedicated to the 250th anniversary of the country's Academy of Sciences. The academician, who three years later will be awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics, read a concept paper in which, based on basic physical principles, he buried almost all types of "alternative energy". The scientist made an exception only for controlled thermonuclear fusion.

Almost half a century later, the situation has changed. Although the share of alternative energy still accounts for insufficient electricity generation, the development and growth of this direction is obvious. According to the oil and gas company British Petroleum, in 2019 the generation of alternative renewable energy sources (excluding large hydroelectric power plants) reached 10,4 percent of the world's electricity generation. For the first time, alternative energy has bypassed nuclear energy in this indicator.

What Academician Pyotr Kapitsa was talking about


Alternative energy is a large set of promising methods of obtaining, transferring and using energy (very often we are talking about renewable sources). This type of energy is of primary interest due to its advantageous use and low risk of causing harm to the environment.

The considerations of the famous scientist and academician were based on the fact that no matter what source of energy we considered, it could always be characterized using two main parameters: the rate of energy transfer (propagation) and energy density - that is, its amount per unit volume. The product of the two indicated quantities would give at the output the maximum power that could be obtained from a unit surface using energy of one kind or another.

Pyotr Kapitsa said that the density of solar energy is negligible. Moreover, it spreads at a tremendous speed - the speed of light. That is why the solar flux coming to the Earth is not at all small, it provides life to all life on our planet. However, the scientist believed that solar energy as the main source of energy for all of humanity is very ineffective.

Kapitsa was mistaken when assessing the prospects for alternative energy
Pyotr Leonidovich Kapitsa in the 1930s

As Academician Kapitsa said, at sea level, taking into account the losses in the Earth's atmosphere, a person can ultimately use a flux of 100-200 watts per square meter. At that time, the efficiency of devices that converted solar energy into electricity reached 15 percent.

In order to cover only the household needs of one household, panels with an area of ​​40-50 square meters would be required. In order to replace all sources of fossil fuels existing on Earth with solar energy, it would be necessary to build a power plant that would occupy the entire land part of the equator, while the width of solar panels would reach 50-60 km. The academician considered such a project unrealizable either for technical, financial, or even more so for political reasons.

Almost half a century later, the numbers have remained virtually unchanged. Most solar panels under normal conditions have an efficiency of 15–20 percent (at the same time, samples with 25–30 and even 45 percent efficiency have been experimentally developed and tested). But the consumption of electricity by modern appliances has been significantly reduced. The energy efficiency trend has been set and maintained throughout the world.

True, solar energy really still lacks stars from the sky, although it received a huge impetus in development. But, as before, she alone is not able to replace all the needs of the inhabitants of the Earth, however, while such a task is not facing humanity.

Kapitsa rejected geothermal energy for obvious geographical reasons. It can only be effectively developed in areas with volcanic activity. Such examples are indeed successful, but on a limited scale. At the same time, such energy had its advantages: it does not depend on the weather, the season, the generation of geothermal energy can be carried out continuously, and its reserves, in fact, are inexhaustible.


Geothermal power plant Nesavetlir in Iceland

Inexhaustible, in addition to solar and geothermal energy, are also water reserves. Hydropower, obtained by damming rivers and during high tides, can be effectively used in the economy. In the mid-1970s, hydropower accounted for 5 percent of the energy balance. Kapitsa believed that it would be extremely difficult to increase this share, since only certain rivers, preferably in mountainous areas, were suitable for the construction of powerful hydroelectric power plants.

The academician considered the use of wind energy insufficiently economically justified due to the low density of the energy flow. At the same time, Kapitsa believed that the use of alternative energy sources may be in demand for domestic needs, but he considered the scale of such use to be small.

After almost half a century, it can be stated that some countries have achieved success in the use of alternative energy sources due to their geographic location and low population, such as Iceland. All electricity in this country is generated on the basis of renewable sources (70 percent - hydroelectric, 30 percent - geothermal energy). But the success of wind energy, probably, would have surprised Petr Leonidovich most of all. Today, the share of wind turbines in a number of European countries accounts for a huge share of electricity generation, and this is far from household consumption.

Alternative energy prospects today


Today, the prospects for alternative energy look much more preferable than just half a century ago. This is largely due to the development of technology, science and technology. In developed countries, the share of alternative energy is gradually growing, primarily in electricity generation. For example, in the United States, the contribution of alternative energy to electricity generation at the end of 2017 was estimated at 17,1 percent (taking into account the operation of large hydroelectric power plants). And this is not an outstanding result.

In Europe, in a number of countries, the figures are much higher. For example, in the first half of 2020 in Germany, renewables accounted for 56 percent of electricity generation. At the same time, in this European country, only 4 percent accounted for classical hydroelectric power plants, 52 percent are alternative sources, of which solar energy accounted for 11,4 percent, wind - 30,6 percent of electricity generation.


Wind turbines near the Danish coast. Photo: wikipedia.org

In some European countries, the production of electricity from renewable energy sources is even higher. The leaders are the Scandinavian countries. For example, Sweden is setting itself an ambitious goal of completely eliminating the use of carbon fuels by 2040.

Denmark, the southernmost Scandinavian country, also has ambitious targets to cut CO2030 emissions by 2 percent by 70 from 1990 levels. A large-scale program for the development of wind energy is also being implemented here. At the end of 2019, the share of wind energy in electricity production in Denmark reached 55,2 percent, which is already an excellent result.

China, which is still the main consumer of coal in the world, is also announcing very ambitious plans for the development of alternative energy. At the same time, coal is one of the dirtiest types of fossil fuels for the planet's ecology. Although here it is also worth making an allowance for the time. Most modern Chinese thermal power plants have excellent cleaning filters and minimize damage to the ecosystem.

According to Chinese experts, by 2050, the country should reduce energy production from coal-fired power plants to 30-50 percent of total energy consumption. The remaining 50-70 percent is planned to be provided with the use of natural gas, oil, as well as renewable energy sources, including nuclear energy, hydropower, wind energy and solar energy.

Over the past years, China has already been the world leader in terms of installed capacity in the hydropower, wind and photovoltaic sectors. According to Zhang Jianhua, head of the PRC State Energy Administration, in 2020, electricity generation in China using renewable energy sources reached 2,2 trillion kWh, accounting for a total of 29,5 percent of the country's total electricity consumption. This is 9,5 percent more than the country could generate with renewable energy in 2012.


A panorama of a wind farm in Shanxi province, China. Photo: wikipedia.org

At the same time, unlike the Scandinavian countries, China has better prospects for the development of solar energy. At the end of 2020, a solar station with a capacity of 2,2 GW was put into operation in the PRC. The energy infrastructure facility is located in the vast desert of Qinghai province. In addition to the photocells themselves, the station is also equipped with energy storage systems. The station was connected to densely populated areas of the Celestial Empire using an ultra-high voltage power transmission line - 800 kV.

Traditionally, a lot of attention is paid to green energy issues in the United States. There it is often the agenda of the presidential elections. George W. Bush presented the biofuel program. New American President Joe Biden is also actively promoting green energy ideas. He was ready to invest two trillion dollars in the transfer of the national energy to environmentally friendly sources, while the full transition is planned to be carried out by 2035.

It is unlikely that these plans will be fully implemented, but the impetus is quite obvious. Companies in the green energy sector reacted by raising their shares to the election of Biden. The whole question is how much it will be possible to implement the ambitious program, since история with biofuels, although it received serious development in the States, it did not reach the figures announced by Bush.

Prospects for alternative energy in Russia


In Russia, as in the rest of the world, they understand the need to develop alternative energy and reduce the negative impact on the environment. At the same time, Russia has no serious success in this area.

One of the main obstacles to the development of this direction is traditionally called the presence of large reserves of organic fuel in the country. Of the total energy resources in Russia in 2012, only 4 percent came from renewable sources, of which 2/3 was generated by hydropower.

In the structure of electricity generation, the situation is better due to hydroelectric power plants, which in 2020 generated about 20 percent of all electricity, another 12 percent falls on nuclear power plants, solar energy only 0,55 percent, wind energy - 0,07 percent (within the margin of error). Most of Russia's electricity is still generated by thermal power plants - 67 percent.


The largest solar power plant in Russia "Perovo" in the Crimea. Photo: Activ Solar / flickr.com

It is planned to correct this situation by developing renewable energy programs. By 2035, the volume of state support for projects in this area alone should amount to 360 billion rubles. This was announced at the beginning of June 2021 by the official website of the Government of the Russian Federation. This is already the second renewable energy development program in Russia, the first should be completed in 2024.

As the Ministry of Energy previously reported, in 2023–2035, Russia is expected to commission about 2,4 GW of solar power, 4,1 GW of wind power and 0,2 GW of small hydroelectric power plants. In total, by 2035, Russia plans to introduce about 6,7 GW of capacity generated by renewable energy sources, which at best will amount to about 4 percent of the country's energy balance.

For comparison: in China, by 2035, this share should exceed 25 percent and is already 15 percent. At the end of 2020, the total capacity of solar energy in China was 253,4 GW, wind energy - 281,6 GW.
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  1. bk316
    bk316 8 June 2021 15: 10
    +98
    Kapitsa was mistaken when assessing the prospects for alternative energy

    Kapitsa was not mistaken, he gave a lecture on physics, not marketing.
    What is called alternative energy, both now and in the future, is ineffective in comparison with other types of energy.
    Naturally, Kapitsa did not take into account the political, environmental, social aspects, they do not affect the efficiency of these devices.

    And if we talk about political, environmental and social aspects, then nothing is clear yet, but I am looking after a 2 kilowatt solar battery for my dacha.
    1. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 8 June 2021 15: 20
      -39%
      Quote: bk316
      What is called alternative energy, both now and in the future, is ineffective in comparison with other types of energy.

      The main thing here is to understand what you mean by the definition: "traditional energy". If this is obtaining electricity by burning hydrocarbons, then how to understand wind turbines, nuclear power plants, solar power plants? And then there are a number of developments that oil and gas sellers are buying up on the vine. There are facts of the existence of engines on water, for example ... belay
      And Kapitsa is a famous scientist, but Einstein once said that there is nothing faster than the speed of light, but in fact it turned out to be ...
      1. paul3390
        paul3390 8 June 2021 15: 29
        +21
        there is nothing faster than the speed of light, but in fact it turned out to be

        If this is not secret data, then what? what
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 8 June 2021 15: 31
          -25%
          In a new experiment, scientists were able to tune the speed of light waves in hot plasma to an indicator that exceeds the speed of light by 30%. It is reported by Rambler. Further: https://news.rambler.ru/science/46480906/?utm_content=news_media&utm_medium=read_more&utm_source=copylink
          1. paul3390
            paul3390 8 June 2021 15: 35
            +17
            Duc - Einstein was kind of talking about speed in a vacuum, didn't he?
            1. Ross xnumx
              Ross xnumx 8 June 2021 15: 39
              -14%
              I have not met him, but I know why there is a photograph where he shows his tongue:
              1. paul3390
                paul3390 8 June 2021 15: 41
                +6
                He him you shows ?? belay laughing
          2. Old tanker
            Old tanker 8 June 2021 17: 20
            +1
            And the light waves, given in hot plasma, are they not light?
            1. Egor-dis
              Egor-dis 8 June 2021 18: 38
              +12
              Quote: Old Tanker
              And the light waves, given in hot plasma, are they not light?

              The bullet from the AK-74 has an initial velocity of about 900 m / s. If you shoot from the AK (purely hypothetically) through an electromagnetic gun (well, or inside the tunnel of the synchrophasotron), then you can get a speed (for example) of 1900 m / s. Does it make sense after that to indicate in the technical passport and NSD that the initial speed of the bullet is 1900 and not 900? Isn't the bullet the same?
              1. Old tanker
                Old tanker 9 June 2021 06: 31
                -6
                And yet the bullet remains a bullet. And it will still be called BULLET SPEED,
                1. Egor-dis
                  Egor-dis 9 June 2021 17: 04
                  +4
                  Quote: Old Tankman
                  And it will still be called BULLET SPEED,
                  Hike, specifically for you, you need to make a retirement age of 100 years and a pension of 10 rubles. After all, this will still be called the retirement age and pension.
            2. Hantengri
              Hantengri 9 June 2021 11: 58
              +7
              Quote: Old Tanker
              And the light waves, given in hot plasma, are they not light?

              Photon, it is also a photon in the plasma. But plasma is not a vacuum at all. Einstein didn’t say anything about the speed of light in plasma, didn’t he? So the speed of light in a vacuum could not be higher than 299 792 458 m / s, so it still cannot.
              1. AML
                AML 13 June 2021 19: 02
                0
                The speed of light is not measured, no matter how paradoxical it may sound. We operate with an arithmetic mean. But it may well turn out that the speed back and forth is different.
          3. Hantengri
            Hantengri 9 June 2021 11: 24
            +3
            Quote: ROSS 42
            In a new experiment, scientists were able to tune the speed of light waves in hot plasma to an indicator that exceeds the speed of light by 30%. It is reported by Rambler. Further: https://news.rambler.ru/science/46480906/?utm_content=news_media&utm_medium=read_more&utm_source=copylink

            In this article, in crooked Russian, the following is written in white:
            Floating through the smooth waters of the vacuum, a photon of light moves at a speed of about 300 thousand kilometers per second. This sets a hard limit on how quickly a whisper of information can travel anywhere in the universe.
            While this law is unlikely to be broken, there are some
            properties of light
            , the manipulation of which could open a new milestone in laser technology. It is reported by Rambler. Further: https://news.rambler.ru/science/46480906/?utm_content=news_media&utm_medium=read_more&utm_source=copylink

            So do not rush to kick Einstein. These experiments do not affect the speed of light in a vacuum in any way.
          4. Vasily Terkin_6
            Vasily Terkin_6 17 June 2021 12: 16
            0
            Does religion not allow you to read the source or lack of knowledge of the language? So you can use the translator. Or banned on Google?
            We show the first experimental demonstration of slow and fast light in a plasma, measuring group velocities between 0.12c and 0.34c.
            Can you handle the translation yourself or help? No revolution in physics happened.
        2. dauria
          dauria 8 June 2021 17: 38
          +5
          If this is not secret data, then what?

          Forgive me for getting into controversy. But the expansion of the universe after the big bang had to happen at a speed faster than light (inflation). Otherwise, its "size" does not coincide with the lifetime. recourse So the vacuum is not like an isotropic void, but a kind of granular dust at the level of the Planck length. ... The same dark matter, real matter. And our baryonic matter is just vibrations from a speck of dust to a speck of dust. Here it is, the constant of the speed of light, which sets both time and length.
          This is what physicists say after Einstein ... request
          And they seem to be doing pretty well. And the density of dust grains is the very distortion of space during gravity (fourth dimension). And the rotation of galaxies falls into place, and dark streams. Moreover, it does not even contradict quantum physics.
          1. Maki Avellevich
            Maki Avellevich 8 June 2021 20: 36
            +5
            Quote: dauria
            Forgive me for getting into controversy. But the expansion of the universe after the big bang had to happen at a speed faster than light (inflation). Otherwise, its "size" does not coincide with the lifetime.

            at the beginning of the beginning, not only matter / energy spreading in space, space itself was created, and maybe time.
            perhaps this is why the size of the universe is greater than it should have been in age.
      2. ProkletyiPirat
        ProkletyiPirat 8 June 2021 15: 57
        +13
        Quote: ROSS 42
        There are facts of the existence of engines on water, for example ...

        well, firstly, not on water, but on an explosive gas, that is, a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen in a gaseous state
        secondly, these engines fail quickly
        thirdly, even if the engines did not break down, they are not profitable in terms of energy, transport, technological and other aspects.
        although, yes, marketing and PR can make them "profitable"
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 8 June 2021 18: 14
          -7
          Quote: ProkletyiPirat
          well, firstly, not on water, but on an explosive gas, that is, a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen in a gaseous state

          Damn ... On a fart ... You watch videos first, and then make yourself Kapitsa ...
          1. ProkletyiPirat
            ProkletyiPirat 8 June 2021 20: 41
            +4
            firstly) rukalitso, I quote the voice acting of the video
            "all you need is water, ... any kind of water: river, rain, sea ... it works exclusively on hydrogen peroxide"

            since when are H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), H2O ("water") the same? And in general about this company (Genepax) it is written in the wiki https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_on_vody

            secondly) Okay, to hell with him, let's take it as an axiom that this technology was invented, I will even believe that the "evil oilmen" closed the company as it is said in the video, ATTENTION QUESTION: who is more powerful than the "evil oilmen" or the military of Japan? Purely so, for reference, the Japanese Navy (and not only Japan) is guaranteed to invest billions of dollars in technology for generating energy from seawater on board a ship (ship / submarine) directly into the sea directly from seawater. If the exhaust of such an installation was + 10%, well, at least + 5% in energy, this is already enough for installation on a diesel-electric submarine as a VNEU.
      3. bk316
        bk316 8 June 2021 16: 19
        +8
        Einstein said that there is nothing faster than the speed of light, but in fact it turned out to be ...

        I'm afraid you don't understand Einstein laughing
        But seriously, don't write about what you don't understand ...
        And do not refer to nonsense like "Floating through the smooth waters of the vacuum, a photon of light moves at a speed of about 300 thousand kilometers per second. This sets a hard limit on how quickly a whisper of information can travel anywhere in the universe. It is reported by Rambler. belay laughing This is from your link.

        the main thing here is to understand what you mean by the definition: "traditional energy"

        firstly, not unconventional, but alternative.
        secondly, read the article, it is clearly written there: the alternative is wind and solar.
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 9 June 2021 12: 33
          -5
          Quote: bk316
          But seriously, don't write about what you don't understand ...

          You will first learn the rules of grammar. Get some punctuation, mister scientist. Gathered here and sculpt a "hunchback". In 1978, conventional batteries and crowns were in short supply, and we were taught that tube radios were the most reliable (best in the world).
          More than forty years have passed since Kapitsa's death, and he knew as much about the development of alternative electric power as an average engineer knows today.
          1. bk316
            bk316 9 June 2021 13: 53
            -2
            You will first learn the rules of grammar.

            I can write that without errors, but you will NEVER understand general relativity. laughing
            However, grammar seems to be inaccessible to you if you are a literate:
            development of alternative power engineeringе

            cases did not pass? laughing
      4. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 03
        +1
        Quote: ROSS 42
        And there are also a number of developments that oil and gas sellers are buying up on the vine.

        eg?!
    2. Civil
      Civil 8 June 2021 15: 52
      0
      So it's time to figure out what to produce from hydrocarbons in Russia.
      1. AML
        AML 13 June 2021 19: 09
        0
        Plastic? :)
    3. Intruder
      Intruder 8 June 2021 16: 06
      -1
      then nothing is clear yet, but I am looking after a 2 kilowatt solar battery for my dacha.
      And why then ... to look closely ??? After all, they themselves wrote about:
      both now and in the future, it is ineffective in comparison with other types of energy.
      wink In the store, you get a compact gas generator (there are now heaps of models, for any wallet and power with different voltages 12 / 220V even), with an output power of up to 3 kW. and a couple of canisters of liquid fuel, (smelly) gasoline with you for every race .., beauty and convenient, in the evening they pulled out from the trunk, threw the cable on the shield into the house and truncated - start from a button or kick-starter with a handle and you can continue to admire the dacha idyllic under the hum of the internal combustion engine, and what gray exhaust goes to birches and raspberry bushes ... mmm ...!? lol
    4. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 17: 59
      +2
      Quote: bk316
      but I am looking after a solar battery for 2 kilowatts for the dacha.

      it is to the dacha, for the house only as an auxiliary option in case of an accident and then ...
    5. YOU
      YOU 8 June 2021 21: 15
      +10
      .. All questions about alternative energy are broken when the average annual temperature is about 0 degrees. That is, it can be hot in summer, but winter and half a year. I won't be here for long. Professionals have counted more than once. Heat pumps, all sorts of windmills, and sunflowers, this is only for if Russia is the south. Krasnodar, Stavropol, well. and so on, and then only in the summer. And all this is only in relation to the private sector. Manufacturing, etc. needs stable. network heating and electrics. All these theses about geothermal, and so on in Russian conditions, a divorce, and knocking out the dough.
    6. Boris55
      Boris55 9 June 2021 08: 45
      +1
      Quote: bk316
      but I am looking after a solar battery for 2 kilowatts for the dacha.

      I put two 4-watt panels under my window (100th floor). A radio tape recorder from the car is connected, a 12 volt 7 watt night light, and a small 12 volt TV set (I turn it on when I need to listen, not watch). I have been using it for 4 years (72 ampere battery). If necessary, you can power up a 50-inch TV, if there is no sun, then an hour for the 4th will be enough.

      Still, in the city, it's more likely for curiosity than for necessity.

      T-15MD tokamak thermonuclear installation launched in Russia
      Isn't it an alternative?



      https://iz.ru/1165594/2021-05-18/v-rossii-zapustili-termoiadernuiu-ustanovku-tokamak-t-15md
      1. qQQQ
        qQQQ 9 June 2021 09: 37
        +7
        Quote: Boris55
        I put two 4-watt panels under my window (100th floor). A radio tape recorder from the car is connected, a 12 volt 7 watt night light, and a small 12 volt TV set (I turn it on when I need to listen, not watch). I have been using it for 4 years (72 ampere battery). If necessary, you can power up a 50-inch TV, if there is no sun, then an hour for the 4th will be enough.

        Great, but now you can calculate the cost of the price of solar panels, batteries. Then how long do they work before replacing (especially the battery). We divide all this by the kilowatts obtained during this time and come to the conclusion that the green energy is not at all of the same color, it is golden. As an alternative, in case there is no connection to the networks, but here there are no options, but as the main source, this is if the money has nowhere to go.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 9 June 2021 09: 44
          +2
          Quote: qqqq
          As an alternative, in case there is no network connection, but there are no options, but as the main source, this is if there is nowhere to put the money.

          This is so.

          Endless energy: Rosatom builds first in the world closed cycle reactor.



          This is a question to the recent articles on VO about who is fleeing to the West and who is equipping the Motherland. I will repeat myself. Mediocrities run, geniuses remain.
    7. Anachoret
      Anachoret 9 June 2021 09: 24
      0
      Quote: bk316

      Kapitsa was not mistaken, he gave a lecture on physics, not marketing.

      I agree) the example of Germany is not the best, there is one of the highest electricity tariffs) for the industry it is catastrophic) and although the author speaks about the energy efficiency of new devices and devices as saving) the amount of electricity consumption is growing all over the world) and will it cope with by this question "green" energy, which is subject to fluctuations in output? (no wind, no sun, the interval between ebb and flow, etc.) non-green energy will smooth out these jumps in any case) since hydroelectric power plants can not be installed in sufficient quantities in all countries)
      so I am not surprised that in a couple of years, after SP2, a powerful power transmission line will be extended to Germany from Russia from Russia)) to compensate for the "green games")) some 40-50 billion a year))
      Does Russia need this? yes, it is necessary, but without fanaticism and insane injections from the budget))
    8. Vitaly Tikhonov
      Vitaly Tikhonov 9 June 2021 17: 01
      +2
      He could not guess the birth of Greta Thunberg
    9. Vadim Ananyin
      Vadim Ananyin 10 June 2021 08: 38
      0
      So nature has not yet proved them in Texas and Fukushima either. Apparently when they start to die in batches from the cold as in the same India, they will remember everything.
  2. Sahalinets
    Sahalinets 8 June 2021 15: 11
    +32
    Well, first of all, green energy generates very expensive electricity! Secondly, it is too dependent on external factors - no sun, no wind and dosvidos. Accumulators do not save the day - even the best of them (and very expensive!) Have an energy intensity 50 times less than that of fossil fuels. And the production of solar panels and batteries gives such a carbon footprint ...
    1. Cowbra
      Cowbra 8 June 2021 15: 21
      +32
      Continuation of the topic - the development of renewable energy at the moment has exclusively political motivation, and is completely untenable both economically (see Germany - the most expensive energy in the world - only because it is FORCEDLY green) and technologically - last August, California. MONTH!!! rolling blackouts throughout the state, this despite the fact that there are winds - dofiga, and sunshine - at least fill up!
      KAPITSA IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
      There is no reason in green energy - and there will not be, this is just an ersatz, a support. And very expensive
      But the consumption of electricity by modern appliances has been significantly reduced. The energy efficiency trend has been set and maintained throughout the world.

      What the ... I just read nonsense ?! Author, are you aware that human energy consumption is growing exponentially? Did you think that the refrigerator has become more economical now? !!! And now look at several TVs, air conditioners, computers, at the sockets hung with a garland of chargers, microwave ovens, electric meat grinders with harvesters and coffee makers with electric kettles - and again tell me nonsense about consumption that has decreased.
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 06
        +17
        Quote: Cowbra
        What the ... I just read nonsense ?! Author, are you aware that human energy consumption is growing exponentially?

        it's just that the author, like many green ones, juggles with words, yes, the consumption of one particular device has decreased, but in general ..., but the greens simply keep silent about this
        1. Vikxnumx
          Vikxnumx 9 June 2021 09: 08
          +2
          it's just that the author, like many green ones, juggles with words, yes, the consumption of one particular device has decreased, but in general ..., but the greens simply keep silent about this

          And also the "green ones" do not consider the harm from the production of solar panels, accumulators, the resource of panels, maintenance of wind turbines and another 100 factors.
          Take away all sorts of grants, subsidies ... and everything will die on its own.
          And why should hydroelectric power plants be classified as "green energy"? There is quite a lot of harm from flooding ...
          CO2 emissions are also oddly counted. Cows emit almost the main CO2 in the world! And who counted the consumption of CO2 by feed during cultivation?
          And such questions ...
      2. Kisa
        Kisa 8 June 2021 18: 07
        +1
        Quote: Cowbra
        energy consumption by humanity

        of course this alternative is not competitive today. and even abstractly assume that in 100 years there will be a large Iceland - wind-solar generators - and how to run the gravity? and the future is just around the corner - proven oil in the Russian Federation for 50 years. where will the grandchildren expand? Yes, and that ocean is inexhaustible for today, and tomorrow if we start filling it with that oil ... there is always a time frame when this or that resource will be dug out of the Earth. we are now measuring history by the millennium to the left, but to estimate the future is already doubt
      3. ccsr
        ccsr 8 June 2021 18: 46
        +7
        Quote: Cowbra
        I just read nonsense? !!! Author, are you aware that human energy consumption is growing exponentially? Did you think that the refrigerator has become more economical now? !!! And now look at several TVs, air conditioners, computers, at the sockets hung with a garland of chargers, microwave ovens, electric meat grinders with harvesters and coffee makers with electric kettles - and again tell me nonsense about consumption that has decreased.

        They simply do not want to see this, although given that the population of India will become larger than in China, and people there also want refrigerators and air conditioners, no alternative energy will provide them with a replacement for traditional fuels, and gas in the first place. The same trend is observed in Africa and Latin America, and we are told that we need to focus on Germany and its use of alternative sources. In general, either these are too naive people, or they do not understand what is happening in the world at all. By the way, the use of electric vehicles will also require an increase in the amount of energy generated, and alternative energy is unlikely to compensate for this increase.
        There is another reason for the growing consumption of more and more energy - an increase in the percentage of recycling waste, when it is not incinerated, but decomposed into components for reuse. So we don't even have an idea how much energy consumption in the world will grow in 10-15 years, and some figures hope to compensate for all the growth with alternative sources - holy simplicity ...
      4. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 8 June 2021 19: 08
        0
        Quote: Cowbra
        What the ... I just read nonsense ?! Author, are you aware that human energy consumption is growing exponentially? Did you think that the refrigerator has become more economical now? !!! And now look at several TVs, air conditioners, computers, at the sockets hung with a garland of chargers, microwave ovens, electric meat grinders with harvesters and coffee makers with electric kettles - and again tell me nonsense about consumption that has decreased.

        Energy consumption is not so simple. It is quite possible that at a certain stage there will be a drop in energy consumption. Given the current demographic trends, the population will sooner or later hit the ceiling. That, other things being equal, will give stagnation in consumption. If we take into account the increase in energy efficiency, then in the end we can get a drop.
      5. garri-lin
        garri-lin 8 June 2021 20: 04
        +12
        As an electrician, I declare responsibly. In the 90s, there were often apartments in which there were 10 or 16 ampere machines at the entrance. More precisely "Plugs" now 32 amperes often do not cope. Although the energy efficiency of devices has become much higher.
        1. Cowbra
          Cowbra 8 June 2021 20: 14
          +5
          As a weak power supply, I responsibly declare that all old houses, buildings built in the 80s and earlier, all have acquired duplicate cable channels, because there is no room for weak current in old houses, it has not been grown for that, and since the beginning of the XNUMXs it has been shifted everywhere in Moscow in the homes of an electrician - because the beginning of the blaze en masse - well, the old wiring does not cope with the current energy consumption, it has not increased by an order of magnitude, by two. Massively pierced not machines, insulation breakdown was in the wire, I repeat - a lot. This is only for home, screw the street lighting here, which has increased by an order of magnitude, or small decorations in the same Moscow:

          We save energy, the author says?
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 8 June 2021 20: 58
            0
            Alas, we are not saving.
          2. bk316
            bk316 10 June 2021 12: 21
            0
            We save energy, the author says?

            Yeah, how can we save, you fly at night by plane, you won't find a dark place 100 kilometers from Moscow ...
      6. Vitaly Tikhonov
        Vitaly Tikhonov 9 June 2021 17: 04
        0
        In the USSR in the 80s, my family spent about 150 kWh per month, now 500 per month
    2. Tcheluskin
      Tcheluskin 8 June 2021 15: 51
      -4
      There are more energy-intensive batteries - super flywheels - that store energy in the form of mechanical rotation energy. The potential energy capacity of a graphene battery is 1200 Wh / kg, versus ~ 200 Wh / kg for lithium-ion batteries. At the same time, the super flywheel uses scarce lithium, but widespread carbon.

      However, to date, only a few projects have been implemented using super flywheels. I don’t know the reasons. Maybe a "world conspiracy" - if you wanted home energy independence) Or maybe because the rotation speed required to achieve high energy consumption - up to 100 thousand revolutions per minute - is, firstly, non-trivial technology, and secondly, "dual-use" (centrifuges for the separation of uranium isotopes).
      1. Bolt cutter
        Bolt cutter 8 June 2021 17: 23
        +8
        only a handful of projects using super flywheels. I don’t know the reasons
        When destroyed, such a flywheel is comparable to a 152 mm land mine.
        1. Tcheluskin
          Tcheluskin 8 June 2021 17: 57
          -2
          It does not collapse at once into fragments, like a land mine.
          The super flywheel's body is wound from graphene tape. The most tense outer parts of the tape, which are torn, become "rags", rubbing against the inner wall of the container.
          And if you wind up somehow from several tapes, the rupture of one may not immediately lead to the destruction of the whole body, it can be detected and the flywheel can be slowed down.
          Again, more and smaller flywheels can be used.
          1. Bolt cutter
            Bolt cutter 8 June 2021 18: 13
            +4
            Super flywheel body is wound from graphene ribbon
            Wouldn't it be cheaper to make platinum with diamonds interspersed?
            1. Tcheluskin
              Tcheluskin 8 June 2021 20: 42
              -1
              I'll put it more correctly: from carbon fiber tape.
              Graphene - to achieve the maximum theoretical energy capacity.
              What is being done now can give energy capacity "only" 2 times more lithium-ion batteries.



              But it is also of great importance that silicon is used here instead of lithium.

              There have also been articles about chemical silicon or carbon batteries, and there is small-scale production. But they also have not gone into a wide series yet.
              1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 07: 52
                +1
                Quote: Tcheluskin
                There have also been articles about chemical silicon or carbon batteries, and there is small-scale production. But they also have not gone into a wide series yet.

                cost of kW ?!
      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 07
        +5
        Quote: Tcheluskin
        There are more power hungry batteries

        there are many things, but ....
        the first is how much it costs, the second is the payback time
      3. qQQQ
        qQQQ 9 June 2021 09: 41
        +1
        Quote: Tcheluskin
        However, to date, only a few projects using super flywheels have been implemented. I don’t know the reasons.

        The price of the issue. when the price of all this is announced to you, you will understand that your great-grandchildren can also easily pay for electricity with this money and not bother.
        1. Tcheluskin
          Tcheluskin 9 June 2021 18: 53
          0
          If the price of electricity from hydrocarbons during the lifetime of my great-grandchildren were expected to be the same as today, solar panels and the task of accumulating their energy would not be interesting at all. But we are passing the peak of production of readily available hydrocarbons now. And realistic alternatives are more and more expensive.
      4. your1970
        your1970 17 June 2021 07: 57
        0
        Quote: Tcheluskin
        super flywheels

        Which I read about back in the 80s (!!!!!!) ..
        40 (!!!!) years have passed ...
        There were buses, trolleybuses, there was operation in different countries ...
        Where is the exhaust ?????
    3. Intruder
      Intruder 8 June 2021 16: 18
      -3
      Well, first of all, green energy generates very expensive electricity! Secondly, it is too dependent on external factors - no sun, no wind and dosvidos. Accumulators do not save the day - even the best of them (and very expensive!) Have an energy intensity 50 times less than that of fossil fuels. And the production of solar panels and batteries gives such a carbon footprint ...
      Exactly, and then recycling is also harmful ... they pollute everything with these products of lithium and cobalt with tantalum, and then our children will live on these landfills !? Better haze over megalopolises, you go out on the balcony in the morning and such a "native" stench flows around the neighborhoods .., feast for the eyes, and the smell of pure aviation kerosene from childhood in the airfield area, so sweetly hums the nose of asthmatics and allergy sufferers from childhood !!! Plus, and oily patterns in puddles at car washes and gas stations .., this is a good age - the era of gasoline and diesel fuel !? winked
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 09
        +9
        Quote: Intruder
        Better haze over megalopolises

        do you think the production of "green" engines will not give this haze? !!!
        By the way, what about those who live outside the ward circle, half a year in the dark?
        1. Disant
          Disant 8 June 2021 23: 12
          0
          By the way, what about those who live outside the ward circle, half a year in the dark?

          gas and nuclear technology (up to solutions of only a few MW) are on the way.
          AES "Academician Lomonosov" - this is just the beginning - there will still be the same + CHPP on gas.
          but on the other hand, the north is full of coal.
          the strongest will win
        2. Intruder
          Intruder 9 June 2021 02: 42
          0
          in the production of "green" engines this haze will not give
          How will they give it, because non-ferrous metallurgy is used! yes when using electrical machines and generators ...
        3. Intruder
          Intruder 9 June 2021 02: 43
          -1
          But what about those who live behind the ward circle, half a year in the dark?
          Here everything is more complicated, it is better, of course, what was invented ... only a watch, and then rest in the south !!!
        4. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 9 June 2021 11: 05
          +1
          Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
          do you think the production of "green" engines will not give this haze? !!!

          So this is the whole point of the current green movement - let someone else suffocate. Let the countries of the third world ruin the environment at home, producing "green" technology - but the "enlightened humanity" will be fine with it.
          But they just forget that the ball is one for all. smile
    4. Bourgeois 1963
      Bourgeois 1963 8 June 2021 18: 58
      -5
      As Einstein used to say, everything in this world is relative. The terrestrial globe is full of deserts where the bright sun constantly shines. There was information that Riyadh and the stupid s decided to fence off a small area of ​​desert 160 x 160 km in the north of the peninsula, and install solar panels there. The electricity that will be generated in the desert will be enough to provide 100% of Europe with electricity. The energy will be transmitted through a cable channel with super conductivity.
      1. TiRex
        TiRex 10 June 2021 14: 14
        0
        there is such a funny thing as transportation losses, they will be colossal from the emirates to europe.
    5. valera75
      valera75 10 June 2021 13: 41
      0
      I read somewhere that this boom with electric cars is supposedly environmentally friendly, but they do not take into account the fact that lithium is mined very dirty for the environment, plus when there are many of these electric cars in the world, someone thought how and where to dispose of hundreds of millions of batteries that will work out their life? how to recycle by millions?
  3. paul3390
    paul3390 8 June 2021 15: 14
    +24
    Well, of course - Kapitsa is kind of wrong .. Winter Texas this year is the guarantee. Long live green energy!

    What - since those times the clouds have stopped running across the sky, there is no more calm, frost there, dust storms? Reference powers - you will have to have one horseradish, moreover - equal to green ones. In order not to be at one fine moment with a candle in hand. And they - whatever one may say, either hydrocarbon or nuclear. And if you take into account that a nuclear power plant or a thermal power plant there in five minutes cannot be fired up and stopped ... The conclusions are obvious. Until there is a massive fusion, all this is bullshit ..

    Another divorce for suckers such as global warming or ozone holes.
    1. Brturin
      Brturin 8 June 2021 16: 16
      +8
      Quote: paul3390
      Until there is a massive fusion

      fusion it is of course, but. when ... today the reactor on fast neutrons BREST-OD-300 was started - it turns out to be a practically closed nuclear cycle "thus this system will gradually become practically autonomous and independent of external energy supplies", - Rosatom. more real ...
      1. paul3390
        paul3390 8 June 2021 16: 30
        +2
        I agree. For as for me - if for 60 years and a colossal amount of dough thermonuclear and failed to bring to a working state - then either the theory is not correct, or all physicists are outright saboteurs and saboteurs. Otherwise it is difficult to explain what is happening.
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 8 June 2021 18: 58
          -1
          Quote: paul3390
          For as for me - if for 60 years and a colossal amount of dough thermonuclear and failed to bring to a working state - then either the theory is not correct, or all physicists are outright saboteurs and saboteurs.

          Yeah, shoot everyone at once, just in case. And it never occurred to you that it was just a colossal task? What is possible, in order to solve it, you just need to move to a new socio-economic formation, and then it will be possible to transfer those enormous forces and resources that are now being spent on all sorts of nonsense, and even to the detriment of humanity.
          1. paul3390
            paul3390 8 June 2021 20: 16
            +2
            Of course, you must go to the formation. As for thermonuclear fusion - name at least one more engineering and technical problem that you really wanted to solve - but have not been solved in 60 years? From real ones, of course, and not some kind of Alcubierre engine ...
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 8 June 2021 22: 26
              +1
              High temperature superconductivity.
            2. Vikxnumx
              Vikxnumx 9 June 2021 13: 30
              +1
              anti-gravity, zero-transportation, roads in Russia, ...
              1. paul3390
                paul3390 9 June 2021 13: 31
                +2
                Uh-huh .. You also add the fight against corruption .. laughing
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 8 June 2021 16: 22
      -8
      And if you take into account that a nuclear power plant or a thermal power plant there in five minutes cannot be fired up and stopped ... The conclusions are obvious. Until there is a massive fusion, all this is bullshit ..
      Right !!! good Mass fusion will save this world ... yes And then, again, the sinking, the melting of glaciers in Greenland, like last year, the overflow of rivers in this one in Siberia, or the winter in Texas in the past, so snowy in the southern Yankees ... But, on the other hand, everyone ride Tesla or hydrogen Koreans buy, bastards ... hipster, they are all stupid in their heads ... these fanatics are green !!! No.
    3. sergey32
      sergey32 8 June 2021 18: 16
      -3
      I just read that the Germans were able to reach the ICUM 56 percent on their offshore wind farms. A very good result. And the cable was transferred to the Norwegians. In Norway, almost all electricity is generated by mountain rivers. If the wind blows well, then they share e / energy with the Norwegians, and they reduce the spillway to the hydroelectric power station and accumulate water.
  4. Alsur
    Alsur 8 June 2021 15: 14
    +14
    Today, the prospects for alternative energy look much more preferable than just half a century ago.

    They look - a very good definition.
    And the scientist was right. That is why the rest of the world wants to pay for "green" energy in the Old World. I'm talking about the carbon tax.
  5. Finches
    Finches 8 June 2021 15: 15
    +9
    Why was Kapitsa wrong ?? Green energy is still a utopia, nothing more. Divorce suckers! A kind of planetary scam! Yes, with the change, the improvement of technology, the indicators improve, but not so much as to speak of a revolutionary breakthrough.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 8 June 2021 15: 26
      +2
      Well, not really a divorce. Sooner or later, the oil and gas industry will run out. Well, consumption is still growing, despite all the protocols and other restrictions. Green energy boosts the right direction. With the help of a nuclear power plant or a coal station, which Dyson shield cannot be built and remote transmission in which field cannot be carried out for millions of kilometers.
      1. paul3390
        paul3390 8 June 2021 15: 40
        +2
        Well - in theory, green energy can be used to generate hydrogen. And already it - to consume. But in life it’s even scary to imagine how much a safe hydrogen infrastructure will cost the planet .. I’m afraid that there is no such money, and it is unlikely to be.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 9 June 2021 02: 46
          -1
          green energy can be used to generate hydrogen. And already it - to consume. But in life, it's even scary to imagine how much a safe hydrogen infrastructure will cost the planet ..
          At the VO there was already an article on the development of hydrogen ... in Russia, because the NPP is considered there as the most effective economically sound way to obtain technical hydrogen, plus there is power that can be constantly spent on this matter!
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 8 June 2021 16: 25
        +5
        Sooner or later, the oil and gas industry will run out. In 1000 years, oil may run out and even then it is not a fact.
      3. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 10
        +2
        Quote: donavi49
        Green energy boosts the right direction

        which ones? !!!
        for today this is all pure water scam
      4. AML
        AML 13 June 2021 19: 22
        0
        This is if you believe that oil and gas are organic. But there is another theory that inside the planet the core is made of superdense matter, and as it decompresses, the planet itself grows in size, and hydrocarbons are renewed.
  6. Shuttle
    Shuttle 8 June 2021 15: 17
    +10
    Here is an article, as it were, explaining what the respected academician had in mind. But such passages about hydropower ... No.
    Inexhaustible, in addition to solar and geothermal energy, are also water reserves.

    The water reserves are really huge. But it is the energy of the sun that is used in hydropower. It is she, the energy of our star, that turns water into steam, which turns into clouds that rain down on land. Water collected in rivers has potential energy. Man has learned to convert it into electricity with the help of hydroelectric power plants. The source of energy is not water reserves, but the Sun. Water reserves are just an intermediary, the working fluid of this cycle.
    The article seems to be popular science. hi
  7. Shuttle
    Shuttle 8 June 2021 15: 26
    +11
    But the success of wind energy, probably, would have surprised Petr Leonidovich most of all. Today, wind turbines in a number of European countries account for a huge share of electricity generation, and this is far from household consumption.

    What would surprise Petr Leonidovich is the word "successes" in this article. For example, the Germans known for their engineering practicality (the gloomy Teutonic genius) themselves, with their own hands, although not of their own free will, killed their nuclear power and built wind turbines and solar panels ... And gave the world new hitherto unknown concepts such as "dark calm" , "dark cold calm".
    And the recent energetic "successes" of Texas have become the talk of the town.

    I emphasize that I have nothing against the so-called. "green" energy when it is wise, and not for itself. But success is when it is good, useful (for real), progressive, technological.
  8. Evgeny Ivanov_5
    Evgeny Ivanov_5 8 June 2021 15: 29
    +11
    Kapitsa was right. He considered in his work precisely industrial power plants, and not local ones. In addition, recent studies have proven that the fields of wind turbines have an extremely negative impact on the ecosystem.
    The low-frequency vibrations and infrasound generated by them scare away not only animals, birds and fish, but also make it impossible for people to live nearby.
    At the moment, the only option in terms of the ratio of performance and environmental friendliness is nuclear power.
  9. knn54
    knn54 8 June 2021 15: 30
    +5
    I also understand deserts, mountains, that is, territory that cannot be used for other purposes.
    And for some reason, one question torments me - how to dispose (bury?) A lot of those that have served, for example, blades from wind turbines
    1. A. Privalov
      A. Privalov 8 June 2021 17: 55
      +1
      Quote: knn54
      I also understand deserts, mountains, that is, territory that cannot be used for other purposes.
      And for some reason, one question torments me - how to dispose (bury?) A lot of those that have served, for example, blades from wind turbines

      Nobody knows what to do with them. I heard that they have created rather compact devices for crushing the blades into a kind of cereal and packaging. If the doctors give the go-ahead, it will go as a fairly inert filler for various purposes.
      Paradox. The blade is expensive, and the groats are at the price of garbage. lol
  10. KKND
    KKND 8 June 2021 15: 33
    -6
    The people in the USSR and then in Russia for so many years have been screwed into their ears that there is no place for alternative energy on the planet, so many arguments were given and here is such an article. Not in order! Kapitsa, come and put things in order!
  11. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 8 June 2021 15: 38
    +4
    Almost half a century later, the situation has changed. Although the share of alternative energy still accounts for insufficient electricity generation, the development and growth of this direction is obvious.
    Of course, Kapitsa was right. The growth in the number of these money pumps is connected only and exclusively with the fact that with their help it is easy to fool the head of an uneducated and stupid voter. For this, the voters were made uneducated and stupid. To make it easier to draw up government revenue in their pockets. So called, "green energy" destroys nature dozens, sometimes hundreds, or even thousands of times more than the traditional one. But the ability to steal on these projects redeems all the "costs"!
    In general, the growth of this Panama characterizes only the growth of theft of state funds. And it's terribly sad ...
  12. rocket757
    rocket757 8 June 2021 16: 08
    +7
    Alternative energy has the right to be, as an addition to the classic.
    At this technological level, it will not be very profitable ...
    And yet, to all supporters of "green" to serve exactly what they dream of, at the price that it has !!! And to everyone else, to develop classical energy, make it cleaner, in all available ways and use exactly what they want ... and not pay for the wishes of alternative people, let them themselves,
    1. Cowbra
      Cowbra 8 June 2021 16: 28
      +4
      Exactly. I would do just that - to catch these greens - to count how much they consume - and to tear from them the full price for green energy, without any subsidies. For this, you can build, for example, biofuel power plants. Let them pour an adequate amount of energy into the grid, and lobbyists like the author will pay for it. I think after the very first payment he will write an article about the excellent nuclear energy
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 8 June 2021 16: 49
        +2
        Some costs for the development of promising projects are necessary, but not to the detriment of the rest ... early, early they started, it will be skewed with vague prospects, and there are problems behind the "green" pulling a cart and a small cart and by no means as clean as they are broadcast.
        1. Cowbra
          Cowbra 8 June 2021 17: 16
          +5
          Who's arguing? You just do not need to sculpt a panacea out of it, and even more so - forcibly screw it in. In Crimea, one of the world's largest solar stations was built without any fuss - this is the case. The sun is normal there, there are unused territories. But what the heck is a thread of SES in St. Petersburg, for example, where are two types of weather - rain and snow ?! So you will hear enough of such articles - and come on! I personally saw a windmill in the Moscow region, local boobies put it at a fork in the road. A windmill with a height of 10 meters, around a forest with a height of 15 meters. But, mother, we take care of the ecology. And the fact that the wind, in principle, cannot blow there - did you think ?!
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 8 June 2021 17: 29
            +1
            Well, yes, everything should be in place and in business. Solar el. I have a station, I use extra rations, but it makes no sense to install a windmill, the lowland is not always windy.
            Although I want to try to collect, so, for the sake of interes, and for some reason to show how it works.
            1. Cowbra
              Cowbra 9 June 2021 16: 28
              +2
              Quote: rocket757
              how do i use extra ration

              Well, here the trick is that here you have - and I understand you perfectly. Here in the first place is not rationality, but reliability. In short - what a nafig, I'm pinned, but there is not enough light mulberry. For the same reason, you probably also have a snow shovel. But here the zulenchies are trying to pass off the snake for a hedgehog - with a shovel, there is a close analogue - an environmentally friendly way of removing snow. Agree, it does not require gasoline for snowblowers))) But this is exactly the same nonsense as translating the whole country into green energy, on an industrial scale ... the greens objected so in the discussion and failed
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 9 June 2021 20: 21
                +1
                On most topics, adherents of a particular sect cannot / are able to support / withstand a constructive conversation when it is necessary to consider all aspects, all the pros and cons, those processes, etc., etc.
                Well, to me, an energy engineer by education, can prove some kind of ignoramus, when he just believes / is sure, and refute the clear calculations, which in such a case have always been and will be in the FIRST place !!! Can't he?
                Yes, I built myself a solar power plant and use it with maximum efficiency ... but, at first I made a project, I calculated everything and now ... I am satisfied and the cost of components paid off within five years, but again, I DID EVERYTHING BY MYSELF, and this is a serious saving, in contrast to what various firms offer, which want to get their pretty penny on a fashionable topic.
                In general, in the future, this topic may play a role, but only in combination with classical energy.
  13. Rostislav Prokopenko
    Rostislav Prokopenko 8 June 2021 16: 20
    +6
    But who considered the need for resources, space and everything else for the disposal of wind turbines with their blades, solar panels and batteries for them? I saw a photo somewhere - a parking lot near Paris clogged with electric carsharing cars, which cannot be repaired or disposed of properly with their batteries.
    And the Chinese will soon run out of space for dumps from the development of rare earth. They will not make wind turbine blades and electronics for Tesla, so what? Green energy hunted?
    Only nuclear energy will save the world laughing
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 8 June 2021 16: 30
      0
      Just all these solar panels and disassembled windmills will be dumped into spent quarries and covered with earth for one such quarry for several hundred such green power plants - it's cheap and angry, and most importantly, ecology will not suffer, and the pockets of manufacturers are the same.
  14. NF68
    NF68 8 June 2021 16: 21
    -5
    Kapitsa proceeded from the level of development and science at that time. 45 years have passed since then, and during this time something has changed and what previously seemed unlikely or generally incredible, today or in the near future, may become reality. And that's okay.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 16
      +3
      Quote: NF68
      Since then, 45 years have passed and during this time something has changed.

      in this matter, nothing, except that what used to serve 10-20 years is now 1-2 years
      1. NF68
        NF68 9 June 2021 16: 21
        -1
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        Quote: NF68
        Since then, 45 years have passed and during this time something has changed.

        in this matter, nothing, except that what used to serve 10-20 years is now 1-2 years


        This cannot be said about German windmills and solar panels. For a neighbor, just as these batteries were installed on the roof more than 10 years ago, they are still worth it and they do not need any repairs. In March last year, alternative sources of electricity provided more than 50% of all electricity. 40-45 years ago we only dreamed about it.
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 18: 02
          0
          Quote: NF68
          This cannot be said about German windmills and solar panels.

          do not turn on the fool you understand what
          by the way, the payback of this pleasure is approximately equal to the operating time ~ 20 years
          Quote: NF68
          In March last year, alternative sources of electricity provided more than 50% of all electricity. 40-45 years ago we only dreamed about it.

          WHERE?!!!
          what nonsense are you talking about !!!
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. The comment was deleted.
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 14 June 2021 18: 42
              0
              Quote: NF68
              advises not to include the fool

              and under which article does this statement fall?
              1. NF68
                NF68 17 June 2021 19: 13
                -1
                Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                Quote: NF68
                advises not to include the fool

                and under which article does this statement fall?


                I didn't write that either. But my comment is being deleted again.
                1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 17 June 2021 20: 02
                  0
                  Quote: NF68
                  I didn't write that either. But my comment is being deleted again.

                  yes, your account was hacked
                  1. NF68
                    NF68 17 June 2021 20: 13
                    0
                    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Quote: NF68
                    I didn't write that either. But my comment is being deleted again.

                    yes, your account was hacked


                    The ubiquitous Russian hackers?
                    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Vasilenko Vladimir 17 June 2021 20: 25
                      0
                      how do I know who, you are claiming that you did not write what I quoted
            2. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 14 June 2021 18: 46
              0
              do not forget to take the calculator in your hands, otherwise it’s even more tough than the Central Election Commission, I’m already silent about the fact that biogas was put there
              1. NF68
                NF68 17 June 2021 19: 32
                -1
                Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                do not forget to take the calculator in your hands, otherwise it’s even more tough than the Central Election Commission, I’m already silent about the fact that biogas was put there


                Even without a calculator, I see how many windmills have been built around our city in 20 years. Until now, wind turbines were built with a height of no more than 78 meters. And now 150 meters. The maximum diameter of the rotors has increased from 46 meters to 130. The amount of generated electricity increases accordingly.
                For example in the federal state of Brandenburg:



                For the installation of solar panels, the necessary fasteners are initially installed during the construction of new waits. And when repairing the roofs of previously built buildings, the same fasteners are also installed. The same is done by private firms and concerns and simply by the owners of any buildings. if it was not profitable, they would not do it. Another thing is that in Germany they are in a great hurry to abandon nuclear power plants and coal-fired power plants. Gas-fired power plants will still build and operate those already built. They will work in cases where wind turbines and solar panels generate too little electricity.
                1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 17 June 2021 20: 01
                  0
                  Kindergarten
                  you yourself have at least once calculated the required power for your home, as well as the payback of a wind turbine or panel
                  1. NF68
                    NF68 17 June 2021 20: 17
                    -1
                    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Kindergarten
                    you yourself have at least once calculated the required power for your home, as well as the payback of a wind turbine or panel


                    Really? Several hundred thousand Germans and, not only Germans, did not manage to do this earlier and are stupidly spending their money? They are very good at counting their money. And make money too. Therefore, they do not live badly. And only you realized that they were doing this in vain and wasting money down the drain.
                    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Vasilenko Vladimir 17 June 2021 20: 25
                      0
                      Quote: NF68
                      Several hundred thousand Germans and, not only Germans, did not manage to do this earlier and are stupidly spending their money?

                      not your own but consumers
                      forgive who is by education?
                      Quote: NF68
                      They are very good at counting their money. And earn too

                      right and make money on fashion
                      Quote: NF68
                      And only you realized that they were doing this in vain and wasting money down the drain.

                      you at least study the topic and read the opinion of not green mediocrities, but scientists and specialists
                      the payback period of the wind turbine is approximately 20-25 years and this is approximately its service life
                      1. NF68
                        NF68 17 June 2021 20: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        not your own but consumers
                        forgive who is by education?


                        They themselves consume the electricity generated by them, and the surplus goes into the network for which these people receive money. I am a mechanical engineer by education.

                        right and make money on fashion


                        Others make money on fashion.

                        you at least study the topic and read the opinion of not green mediocrities, but scientists and specialists
                        the payback period of the wind turbine is approximately 20-25 years and this is approximately its service life


                        Again 25. Is it just that the Germans have been throwing their money down the drain for ten years without knowing anything about the terms of exploitation and profitability? Or is it that your crown has slipped over your eyes? Or are you just the very scientist who counted and calculated everything, but just cannot convince the stupid Germans of this, and being, it seems, not idlers, like the Papuans from bad luck, and not stupid people are engaged in redundant business in advance?

                        The windmill has worked for its 20-25 years, a new windmill was put in its place, but it is no longer necessary to pull a cable to this new windmill, not to prepare the foundation, and so on. Everything has already been built and the second and subsequent wind turbines will cost much less than the initially installed one.
                      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 17 June 2021 21: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: NF68
                        The windmill has worked for its 20-25 years, a new windmill was installed in its place, but it is no longer necessary to pull a cable to this new windmill,

                        it is clear neither physics nor economics you know
                        Quote: NF68
                        Everything has already been built and the second and subsequent wind turbines will cost much less than the originally installed one.

                        yes, at least study what and how much it costs, tired of communicating with an amateur
                      3. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 17 June 2021 21: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: NF68
                        The windmill has worked for its 20-25 years, a new windmill was put in its place, but it is no longer necessary to pull a cable to this new windmill, not to prepare the foundation, and so on. Everything has already been built and the second and subsequent wind turbines will cost much less than the initially installed one.

                        you fucking understand what this is about, your invested money will return in 25 years and at the same time you again need to invest another half of the wind turbine, which will pay off in 12 years
                        that is, the refund will occur AFTER THIRTY - THIRTY FIVE YEARS
                        it is not economically profitable for you to put it

                        again, what is your education ?!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Prisoner
    Prisoner 8 June 2021 16: 31
    +3
    Kapitsa was not mistaken. After a while, those who drown for the alternative will also understand that he is right. They will understand when there is nothing to heat. winked
    1. ikrut
      ikrut 8 June 2021 18: 08
      +2
      The elements and materials used in the production of batteries will run out much faster than hydrocarbons on Earth. Yes, they simply will not be enough for everyone.
    2. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 19
      +2
      Quote: Captive
      After a while, those who drown for the alternative will also understand that he is right.

      these will not understand they have another task
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 8 June 2021 16: 35
    0
    Perhaps now some types of alternative energy are not effective, but we have to start with something, especially since there will not be enough hydrocarbons for the century of mankind. For some reason, no one writes about underwater power plants. Less electricity is generated here. But on the other hand, there are no floods, and the fish is whole. Of course, it is unprofitable to own such a power plant. There is no slugging, you cannot hold back the water. And besides, without an alternative energy in space, there is simply no way.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 20
      0
      Quote: nikvic46
      Perhaps now some types of alternative energy are not effective

      more precisely all
      Quote: nikvic46
      But where do you have to start

      to start to study and invoke the deliberately unprofitable are two different things
      1. nikvic46
        nikvic46 8 June 2021 19: 13
        +1
        Vasilenko Vladimir.If you don't want to, it will be difficult for you to "push" something. And by the way, many Russian scientists are dealing with this problem. And they have already bought patents in the West. These developments are leaving us.
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 19: 22
          0
          Quote: nikvic46
          And by the way, many Russian scientists are dealing with this problem. And they have already bought patents in the West. These developments are leaving us.

          example?
          and we are not talking about ephemeral patents, but about the fact that today the existing "green" energy is not an equivalent replacement for the existing traditional
          1. nikvic46
            nikvic46 9 June 2021 05: 47
            +1
            Vasilenko Vladimir “Green energy will not be equal to traditional one for a long time. But this does not mean that it can be discounted.
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 07: 47
              0
              Quote: nikvic46
              But this does not mean that it can be discounted.

              maybe yes or maybe no, but the fact that today it is a scam is a fact
        2. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 09: 32
          0
          Quote: nikvic46
          If you don't want to, it will be difficult for you to "sniff" anything

          as much as possible
  • boris epstein
    boris epstein 8 June 2021 16: 54
    +3
    I looked at the fields of solar panels and thought: who will clean them from snow and how? If the snow is dry and not packed, it’s half the trouble, but when it’s wet and after a thaw, it’s a big problem. As a local source (for one apartment or one house) is not bad, but for providing the city? And with wind power: there is still no reliable enough material for the blades, how to protect the windings of generators from moisture? In general, the cost of alternative energy at the moment is three times higher than the traditional one - CHP, HPP, NPP. It is necessary to look for the generation of electricity on other physical principles, but science has not yet given them.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 20
      +1
      Quote: Boris Epstein
      As a local source (for one apartment or one house) - not bad

      exactly until you need to climb on the roof in the dark to clean the panels from snow
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 9 June 2021 02: 58
      -1
      I looked at the fields of solar panels and thought: who will clean them from snow and how?
      Well, I don’t know how it’s in the North, I have once a month a mex arrives on a truck with a big ladder and cleaning agents and cleans it carefully for a couple of hours without straining too hard so as not to damage them (panels), I pay him with cash, past the tax (it is so convenient for him), and last year he did it himself (lockdown), as well as 120 sq.m. on the roof it takes - this photovoltaic structure allows you to save your home budget in California so well .., the average payback time is 10 years, if you take a loan with installation to everyone (turnkey)! good
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 09: 39
        +1
        Quote: Intruder
        average payback time - 10 years

        panel life, battery life

        Quote: Intruder
        in California..

        that is Crimea and to the south
        by the way, how long has the snow been cleared from the panels laughing ?
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 10 June 2021 14: 37
          0
          By the way, how long has the snow been cleared from the laughing panels?
          For a long time, but what! ??? wink
          panel life, battery life
          Panels, well, depending on which ones to take and from which manufacturer, there are many options and the price tag is also for any budget ... and the batteries, like in the car, can be pulled to the last with degradation or replaced with a guarantee, or after, but with a small surcharge at the official dealership, a man comes and changes them on the spot, also takes them to MOT ... without any problems!
          1. Vasilenko Vladimir
            Vasilenko Vladimir 10 June 2021 15: 24
            0
            Quote: Intruder
            For a long time, but what! ???

            this is the answer to all questions
            Quote: Intruder
            Panels, well, depending on which ones you take ...

            what don't you take
            it is from these characteristics that the payback is formed about which no one wants to talk from the green
            1. Intruder
              Intruder 10 June 2021 19: 31
              +1
              this is the answer to all questions
              Which one, otherwise a game of riddles !? stop
              what don't you take
              it is from these characteristics that the payback is formed about which no one wants to talk from the green
              Monocrystalline or polycrystalline types of panels !?
              Monocrystalline (in short, on the fingers):

              - high structuredness of the main material allows to achieve a high efficiency factor and the use of such batteries;

              - solar cells monocrystalline have small dimensions and weight, demonstrate, in comparison with other analogs, with the same indicators, greater efficiency;

              - maximum service life. With proper operation and proper maintenance, such solar panels can last at least 25 years.

              In addition to the positive quality, the monocrystalline appearance of the panels also has a number of disadvantages:

              - high cost: if the price is the determining factor in the choice, regardless of the service life, energy efficiency indicator, it is worth giving preference to other types of devices;

              - sensitivity to dirt: even a small amount of dust, a shadow falling on a part of the structure, reduce the efficiency of the system.

              Polycrystalline:

              - their production allows you to reduce the level of costs, reduce the amount of waste that does not need to be recycled, spent on payment for services for their processing;

              - when developing this type of panels, a low percentage of possible rejects is noted.

              Like monocrystalline models, their polycrystalline counterparts have a number of disadvantages:

              - These modules are susceptible to prolonged exposure to high temperatures.

              Its effect significantly reduces the level of performance of solar panels, negatively affects the terms of uninterrupted service, and can negatively affect the design.

              - Relatively low productivity, at the level of 14 - 18 percent.

              - low efficiency of using free space. To install them, you have to use large areas.

              -The appearance is not uniform.

              But if you use special coatings for anti-reflective panels, this drawback does not play a significant role.
              1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir 10 June 2021 19: 43
                0
                Quote: Intruder
                With proper operation and proper maintenance, such solar panels can last at least 25 years.

                payback time?
                Quote: Intruder
                Which one, otherwise a game of riddles !?

                tired, look at the map
                1. Intruder
                  Intruder 10 June 2021 19: 45
                  +1
                  tired, look at the map
                  You say this in riddles, but you can be specific, so as not to take your time on the text in two uninformative comments, or my time to examine some kind of map ... pliz ...!?
                  1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Vasilenko Vladimir 10 June 2021 21: 48
                    0
                    want the truth ?!
                    if you don't understand, then there is no point
                    you don’t remember when the snow was cleared away, but in winter we have shovels in our cars
                    1. Intruder
                      Intruder 10 June 2021 21: 52
                      -1
                      you don’t remember when the snow was cleared away, but in winter we have shovels in our cars
                      Hmm, and you are writing this to a person who has lived for almost 40 years in the south of Siberia, 400 km away. from the center of Asia! ?? True, it's funny ... yes and about the shovels in the trunk and not only in winter, I personally know not in theory and in words ... lol
                      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 10 June 2021 22: 49
                        +1
                        I already understood that you did not understand anything in the topic, everything, closed the discussion,
  • t-12
    t-12 8 June 2021 16: 57
    +5
    Kapitsa is right. Either there will be fusion, or humanity will be reduced that way by 10-20 times (to a level that allows it to survive on the energy of the sun, wind and water).

    Even Iceland will not provide itself (a bunch of "energy-intensive" goods are imported here, produced in other countries at the expense of oil, gas and coal). And as for Siberia ... how to heat it in winter, with electricity from windmills?
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 8 June 2021 17: 02
    +8
    For example, in the first half of 2020 in Germany, renewables accounted for 56 percent of electricity generation. At the same time, in this European country, only 4 percent accounted for classical hydroelectric power plants, 52 percent are alternative sources, of which solar energy accounted for 11,4 percent, wind - 30,6 percent of electricity generation.

    With all my love for "alternative power generation" I must note that the author is somewhat carried away.
    Officially, there is an energy balance for Germany in Eurostat only until 2019.
    So the wind in 2019 gave only 20,7% of the electricity output, the sun - 7,6%. Together, all renewable sources, including hydroelectric power plants and biomass, provided less than 41% of electricity, the rest of coal, gas and nuclear energy. In addition, Germany imports over 5% of the electricity consumed in the country and the price of a kilowatt hour there is one of the highest in Europe and in the world.
    And in the general energy balance of Germany (there is not only electricity, but fuel for transport, heating, and so on) renewable energy is only 15% of all consumption.
    1. Brturin
      Brturin 8 June 2021 17: 56
      0
      Quote: Kostadinov
      And in the general energy balance of Germany (there is not only electricity, but fuel for transport, heating, and so on

      The question is that "the author got carried away a little", one can cite figures for the growth of "green" energy production, but after this winter the gas storage facilities in Germany were empty from 90 to almost 20 percent ... and so far nobody has canceled the winter. .. and with the neighbors of Germany it is somehow evident not very "lucky" - the Poles, Hungarians, Czechs, Bulgarians, Dutch are going to build nuclear power plants, the Finns and the French ... even Estonians are looking for places for low-power units ... that someone other than the Germans is planning to create a parallel gas hydrogen network, the same somehow for now ... analogues of the Californian heat or Texas frosts in the current state of the climate are hardly an exception, and how to cover the peaks of consumption in these emergency situations ...
  • tacet
    tacet 8 June 2021 17: 20
    +5
    How happy the people of Texas were this spring that they have a large share of green energy in their state.
  • alstr
    alstr 8 June 2021 17: 33
    +2
    With regard to alternative energy, the main problem of wind turbines and solar batteries is the instability of generation. Those. sometimes thick, sometimes empty.
    This is half the trouble, but another trouble, but already a general one - we do not know how to store electricity on an industrial scale. Hence, we have flows from West to East and vice versa.
    And this second practically kills all this energy as an INDUSTRIAL source of energy, tk. there needs a stable flow.

    As for hydropower, here Kapitsa was wrong. You just need to cost not giants (like ours) but a whole complex of small hydroelectric power plants.
    By the way, in our conditions, small hydropower would be more in demand than alternative due to climatic features.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 18: 23
      +2
      Quote: alstr
      but a whole complex of small hydroelectric power plants.

      Where?!!! laughing
      it's easier to translate everything into an atom, even the potential harm will be less
      1. alstr
        alstr 8 June 2021 20: 52
        -3
        Everything is very simple. Instead of one giant, we are building several not too large hydroelectric power plants. As a result, the power can be obtained equivalent, but the flooded area will be less.
        And at the expense of it is easier to build a nuclear power plant, it is not easier. Indeed, in addition to the nuclear power plant itself, you also need to pull the wires. At our distances, small hydroelectric power plants that are used for remote areas are the very thing.
        PS
        For information, in 1952 there were 6614 units with a total capacity of 322 thousand kW. Which satisfied about 80% of the capacity in rural areas.
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 21: 33
          +3
          Quote: alstr
          Instead of one giant, we are building several not too large hydroelectric power plants

          again WHERE?
          Have you already assessed the damage to nature?
          Quote: alstr
          Indeed, in addition to the actual nuclear power plant, you also need to pull the wires. At our distances, small hydroelectric power plants that are used for remote areas are just that.

          I realized they don't pull the wires from the hydroelectric power station, they will deliver LYaktrichestvo in cans
          Quote: alstr
          in 1952 there were 6614 units with a total capacity of 322 thousand kW. Which satisfied about 80% of the capacity in rural areas.

          how tired it is
          in 56, not every house had light bulbs, but now I have a peak load of ~ 18 KW, so you don't compare what we sit on with what we indicate
          1. alstr
            alstr 9 June 2021 09: 11
            -1
            You don't have to go far. Suffice it to recall the Rybinsk reservoir:
            "The original Soviet project for the creation of the Rybinsk reservoir assumed the flooding of 2500 square kilometers and the rise of water to 98 m. However, in 1937, young ambitious designers from the Gidrostroyproekt Institute managed to convince the government to raise the water level to 102 m. up to 200 thousand kW. According to the new project, the amount of flooded lands almost doubled. It was these 330m (from 4m to 98m) that became fatal for the city of Mologa and the entire territory of the Molo-Sheksninsky interfluve. "

            Those. if to build, leave the original project and add another hydroelectric power station a little lower (or higher), then the result could be obtained better and in terms of power and land it would not flood more than it should be. It should be understood that besides these considerations, there was something else - there was nowhere to take additional generators, more precisely, it is possible, but expensive and abroad.

            And you do not need to carry electricity in cans, but it is one thing to draw a line of 5-10 km, and another thing to drag it for 100 or more km.
            Here you can save a lot only on losses.
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 09: 27
              0
              Quote: alstr
              Those. if to build, leave the original project and add another hydroelectric power station a little lower (or higher), then the result could be obtained better and in terms of power and land it would not flood more than it should be. P

              the first - it is POSSIBLE, the second the animal world of the rivers you do not take into account
              Quote: alstr
              And you do not need to carry electricity in cans, but it is one thing to draw a line of 5-10 km, and another thing to drag it for 100 or more km.

              this fortune telling on coffee grounds says that you do not understand at all what you are writing about, you will need to pull the same 100 km with just small segments
              Quote: alstr
              Here you can save a lot only on losses.

              and your losses will be much greater
              1. alstr
                alstr 9 June 2021 10: 02
                -2
                For fish, that there is one dam, that two - no difference - for them, you still need to build special passages (which is being done now).
                And if we talk about ecology, then an increase in the water surface is a guaranteed climate change. True, here it is necessary to find the line between useful (for example, climate mitigation) and harmful (all exactly the opposite).

                With electricity, the math does not work 2 + 2 = 4.
                There are certain norms.
                For a 10 kV line (with a loss of 10%), the greatest distance is 15 km.
                And for a distance from 50 to 150 km, a voltage of 110 kV is required.
                And for 300 km, you need a voltage of 330 kV.

                With all the ensuing consequences in the form of higher prices for wires, power lines, transformers.

                Those. to build 10 lines 10 km each is cheaper and easier than one 100 km
                1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 10: 59
                  0
                  in this case, the mass of the PT, plus the costs of interfacing and connection in one circuit, etc.
                  and yes, there is a difference for fish, since it will die not in one channel, but IN EACH
                  for the sake of interest, take an interest in the change in the population of animals in the Volga
  • Max PV
    Max PV 8 June 2021 17: 34
    +2
    Kapitsa was not mistaken at all. He spoke about the futility of alternative energy, as the main source, and fully admitted for domestic consumption. And so it is, just household consumers are provided with electricity from alternative sources, often centralized, not installing a wind turbine in their yard, but using powerful ones. And all these countries with green energy have a much larger share of residential consumers, due to a decrease in industrial consumption. The same European countries mainly brought industrial production, especially energy-intensive ones, abroad, so they got energy efficiency and reduced consumption. As for industrial consumption, the main consumer of electricity in the world, His Majesty the asynchronous motor, which was 100 years ago, has remained the same, and the difference in efficiency between the old AIR and the new Watt or Siemens, with an eco-certificate is no more than 3-4%. and then according to the passport.
    So, in general, in the world, the energy consumption and capacity of TPPs is only growing, including in China.
    And, yes, China's 15% of alternative sources of total consumption are 80% of the energy received at hydroelectric power plants and pumped storage power plants. Which in Russia there is simply nowhere to build due to the fact that the rivers are predominantly flat.
  • gridasov
    gridasov 8 June 2021 17: 43
    +1
    Energy is a procedural quantity, which means as a term containing the fundamental parameters of the quantitative dimension of the process under consideration, the direction of the process and its relative parameters. Moreover, these are processes associated with dynamic indicators at various levels of data interaction. Therefore, energy as a process is expressed by the transformation of big data, and therefore analysis methods are required that are not those that are used as computational ones.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 8 June 2021 17: 59
      0
      Gridasov, do not foul people's brains with your pseudoscientific nonsense.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 8 June 2021 18: 06
        0
        Mdaaa .... Against this background, "tatra" looks like a standard of logic and brevity.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 8 June 2021 18: 27
          +1
          This is called a "delusional generator" or "schizophasia generator" - a program that generates texts. Using certain techniques, it can generate text that will seem quite meaningful to a non-specialist. I don’t understand why the moderators skip this informational rubbish.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 8 June 2021 18: 45
            0
            I don’t understand why the moderators skip this informational rubbish.
            Do you think that the moderators read all the nonsense carried on the forum? I think, in this case, the profession "moderator" took the first line in the rating of traumatic specialties, ahead of air traffic controllers and stock brokers.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 8 June 2021 18: 58
              -1
              traumatic specialties

              Judging by the minuses that have appeared, yes, it does.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 8 June 2021 19: 21
                0
                Well, this is not "modern", "lemmings" - as a maximum.
                But I wondered at what point a computer virus will start to infect a person's central nervous system directly? Kurzweil didn’t broadcast anything about this?
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 8 June 2021 19: 28
                  +1
                  In 2013, in one of his interviews, he talked about his vision of the "posthuman", when the non-biological part will prevail, and the biological one will lose its meaning. According to his estimates, it was not so long before that, somewhere after 2045.
                  Here biological viruses will be replaced by infections affecting the non-biological part.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 8 June 2021 19: 53
                    +4
                    It probably will. The mind, in its biological hypostasis, is unable to break away from the point of origin.
                  2. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 9 June 2021 22: 03
                    +1
                    As the Duke said: "It's very close."
                    It's good that the trees will grow.
                    And carrots will continue to grow.
          2. KKND
            KKND 8 June 2021 20: 37
            +2
            Quote: Undecim
            I don’t understand why the moderators skip this informational rubbish.

            They keep this clown here as a specialist. People come to the forum to read the comments, read Gridasov, laugh at his nonsense, in my brain, I had a good time, I should come back again. By the way, he is not quite a bot once meaningfully answered me. Maybe he is one of the virtual employees of this resource.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 8 June 2021 20: 44
              0
              Yes, sometimes normal answers slip through. But this is extremely rare.
              1. gridasov
                gridasov 8 June 2021 21: 04
                0
                By the way, I propose mathematical methods for analyzing big data on functions of a constant value of a number, which allows you to avoid uncertainties.
            2. gridasov
              gridasov 8 June 2021 20: 57
              0
              And you look at the topics of key areas in the development of mathematics and physics.
              1. KKND
                KKND 8 June 2021 21: 09
                0
                If you knew the topics of the key areas of development of mathematics and physics, you could create more interesting nonsense. And so it comes out very sadly. But sometimes, when the people are in the mood, it comes, then, I have to admit, they buy. I think it would be cooler if you were gribasov and not gridasov, but that's up to you.
                1. gridasov
                  gridasov 8 June 2021 21: 14
                  0
                  Are they buying? Obviously, you do not belong to that category of people who see and comprehend the key problems of civilization.
                  1. KKND
                    KKND 8 June 2021 21: 21
                    +1
                    I mean, they don't believe in the nonsense that you generate, but they laugh at it. Too thick delirium. And here is the laugh itself. This is the only thing that means: bought. On the good you do not need to waste time. But people are not perfect, which is what you use successfully.
                    1. gridasov
                      gridasov 8 June 2021 22: 07
                      0
                      You are a pronounced ill-mannered person. For some reason I am not judging you, I am not laughing and I accept any opinion. Well, that's where your rudeness and incontinence come from. Are you even worth a broken penny? And I have the right to say what I think. And what's more ...
      2. gridasov
        gridasov 8 June 2021 20: 53
        0
        It's not me . This is Lev Landau.
  • ikrut
    ikrut 8 June 2021 17: 54
    +5
    I think that Kapitsa was NOT wrong. I think that the future belongs to nuclear power (for example, controlled thermonuclear fusion or other technologies of waste-free nuclear reactions). An example of the inefficiency and fragility of alternative energy was shown by the energy crisis in Texas this winter. And Europe has already understood this and is "looking" at hydrogen energy (although everything is smooth here too). Alternative energy is only a certain energy "niche" that only very rich countries can afford, since it will not be able to produce energy sufficient for its own reproduction (solar panels, wind turbines, batteries, etc.) and exists only through the exploitation of the resources of the poor countries. Here the picture is very similar to the desire for a general massive transition to electric vehicles. The same utopia. The earth's resources for the production of batteries for electric vehicles are not enough even for a complete transfer to electric vehicles of a state like England. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. You don't even need to look at the African cobalt mines, where teenagers work, providing "alternative energy". She will simply devour herself. IMHO.
  • Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 8 June 2021 17: 58
    +1
    Kapitsa was mistaken when assessing the prospects for alternative energy
    he was not mistaken, alternative energy for today is bullshit and it is not possible to replace what is not in a position either for power or for economic reasons, it is absolutely not profitable for the consumer, except for hard-to-reach places where it is stupid to stretch the cable
  • Egor-dis
    Egor-dis 8 June 2021 18: 51
    +4

    The whole essence of alternative and traditional energy in one photo. Why oppose what complements each other.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 8 June 2021 19: 18
    +1
    On October 8, 1975, Academician Pyotr Leonidovich Kapitsa spoke at a scientific session dedicated to the 250th anniversary of the country's Academy of Sciences. The academician, who three years later will be awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics, read a concept paper in which, based on basic physical principles, he buried almost all types of "alternative energy". The scientist made an exception only for controlled thermonuclear fusion.

    Before writing the article, the author should read "Report at the Scientific Session Dedicated to the 250th Anniversary of the USSR Academy of Sciences."
    Several quotes from it.
    The energy that people use is now divided into two parts. The first is the so-called household energy. It directly provides a cultural way of life. This energy is used for lighting, to power refrigerators, televisions, electric shavers, vacuum cleaners and many other devices that are used in everyday life. The power used in everyday life is usually calculated in kilowatts. Another type of energy is industrial energy, energy of large capacities. It is used in metallurgy, transport, mechanical engineering, mechanization of construction and agriculture, and a number of similar areas. This energy is much larger than household energy, its power is calculated in megawatts, its scale and cost determine the level of the gross product in the national economy of the country. Of course, the upcoming crisis will be caused by a lack of energy resources only in the power industry of large capacities: ensuring that this energy is obtained in sufficient quantities is the main problem facing science.

    I will confine myself to considering the patterns that determine the development of high-power energy and are associated with the existence in nature of restrictions on the energy flux density. As will be seen, these restrictions are often not taken into account, which leads to the costs of projects that are obviously unpromising. This will be the main topic of my report.

    That is, Kapitsa was not mistaken anywhere and did not bury anything.
    The share of "green electricity" is household electricity, the share of which in total consumption in different countries fluctuates around 20 percent.
    1. Liam
      Liam 8 June 2021 20: 55
      -4
      Quote: Undecim
      That is, Kapitsa was not mistaken anywhere and did not bury anything.
      The share of "green electricity" is household electricity, the share of which in total consumption in different countries fluctuates around 20 percent.

      Everyone is wrong. Here is an example of a megawatt industrial complex of solar panels that ensures the operation of a plant, moreover, it is actually installed, and not advertising.

      https://www.futurasun.com/2018/11/08/1-megawatt-di-pannelli-fotovoltaici-futurasun-sul-tetto-della-baxi/
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 8 June 2021 21: 57
        +6
        And in my shop, one 23 MVA furnace consumed, and there are eight such furnaces in the shop, and thirty at the plant.
        How much FuturaSun FU270P is needed?
        1. Liam
          Liam 8 June 2021 23: 19
          -4
          Do you think that the world continues to use stoves that consume 23 MW as in the days of Kapitsa or technology, and there have long been changing towards energy efficiency
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 9 June 2021 07: 06
            +7
            You see, I don’t need to believe in this matter, this is mine, as the director Yakin used to say, “profession de foi”.
            23 MW or more correctly 23 MVA is a small oven. A serious modern ore-reduction furnace is 60-80 MVA, and steelmaking - up to 200 MVA.
            And the change in the enthalpy and internal energy of the reaction of metal reduction from oxides has not changed since the time of Kapitsa, as well as the theory of metallurgical processes.
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 09: 49
              +1
              Quote: Undecim
              You see, I don't have to believe in this matter

              do you really think that he will understand ?!
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 9 June 2021 09: 56
                0
                Why not? A perfectly adequate interlocutor. If he doesn't understand, let's try to explain.
                1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 10: 59
                  -2
                  if a person thinks all the way that the laws of physics change over time ...
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 9 June 2021 12: 07
                    +1
                    I think that the reason here is that people simply do not know what processes take place in a metallurgical furnace and what laws determine their course.
                    Agree that TMP is not the area of ​​knowledge in which an ordinary consumer of metallurgical products is guided.
                    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 12: 31
                      0
                      Quote: Undecim
                      that TMP is not the area of ​​knowledge in which an ordinary consumer of metallurgical products is guided.

                      maybe, but ...
                      energy costs for melting one ton of metal, which in 1959 and 2021 are the same
                      energy can be obtained in different ways, but its amount will be the same
                      1. Undecim
                        Undecim 9 June 2021 12: 55
                        +1
                        You know, this question is somewhat more complicated, since the specific consumption of electricity in electrometallurgy is determined by many factors.
                        Even the size of the oven has a significant impact on this parameter.
                        Therefore, all other things being equal, the specific consumption of a furnace with a capacity of 50 tons will be more than 250 tons.
                      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 13: 22
                        +2
                        I will not argue, you understand the meaning
                      3. Undecim
                        Undecim 9 June 2021 13: 28
                        +2
                        Yes, I understand. You are right that such a parameter as heat spent on endothermic reactions has remained unchanged.
                      4. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 13: 34
                        +3
                        the problem is that green energy is a purely commercial project to suck money
                        after all, even the screams about the transition to electric cars and, accordingly, the "reduction" of emissions is frankly FALSE, because the screaming never when and where do not give data on how much and by what means it will be necessary to increase the production of this very electricity

                        and those who do not know the basics of physics clap their hands
      2. Liam
        Liam 9 June 2021 13: 48
        -1
        A house built now using modern technologies, stuffed with electrical appliances and systems of the current generation, consumes on average 70% less energy, all other things being equal, than a house 30 years ago Exactly the same continuous modernization in this regard has been going on in industry. This is a question of economic viability and competitiveness for a long time. that where, under Kapitsa, a conditional megawatt was required now cost 2-3 times less. And this is a complex topic, starting from the design of buildings. Everything is focused on energy efficiency.
        As for the various miracle stoves that need gigantic amounts of energy, this is, firstly, a meager part of all the energy consumed by factories / plants, etc. And it is not worth making global conclusions from a small detail. All the more, you should not consider the topic as private islands of energy sources. the participants in the system are connected to a common network and "share" it among themselves. 90% of the time solar panels of a private house produce much more energy than is needed in the house. And this "surplus" goes into the network, the same plant, which needs more than it produces.

        Don't oversimplify the topic
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 9 June 2021 13: 50
          0
          Well, I was dreaming ...
          1. Liam
            Liam 9 June 2021 14: 03
            -1
            Quote: Undecim
            dreaming

            To read me a dull physics short course for grade 4?)
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 9 June 2021 14: 45
              +1
              Physics is not taught in the fourth grade. In the fourth grade, they teach the understanding that there are specially trained people in every question.
              1. Liam
                Liam 9 June 2021 15: 00
                -1
                And every student at least in grade 4 should understand that when specially trained people are the most developed in the scientific, economic and technological terms, parts of the planet invest trillions in alternative energy every year, radically change the infrastructure of dozens of countries for this new reality, changing almost all spheres of life in including the industry with the miracle of stoves, it means that these specially trained people are not as ignorant as the VO experts are trying to represent them. And 50 years ago the prophecies of Kapitsa are not the Gospel
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 9 June 2021 15: 29
                  +3
                  And a student in the fourth grade should understand that in life you can meet an opponent who may have a slightly higher competence in the issue under discussion than VO experts, or even your own, or, as it may not seem incredible, even solved practical problems in the area under discussion.
                  But this is so, by the way ..
                2. Liam
                  Liam 9 June 2021 21: 03
                  0
                  Quote: Undecim
                  In life, you can meet an opponent who may have a slightly higher competence in the discussed issue than VO experts, or even your own, or, as it may not seem incredible, even solved practical problems in the area under discussion.

                  Exactly ... for such opponents, news appears that is better than thousands of words and theories.
                  For example, a new metallurgical plant has already been launched in Sweden using alternative energy sources. The Swedes also slipped through the 4th grade of the Soviet school and do not know what they are doing

                  https://www.siderweb.com/articoli/industry/707292-acciaio-all-idrogeno-avviato-il-progetto-hybrit
                3. Undecim
                  Undecim 9 June 2021 21: 46
                  +2
                  These are not alternative energy sources !!! This is a replacement for a reductant in direct iron reduction technology !!! Instead of natural gas - hydrogen.
                  You, it turns out, have missed chemistry, not just physics. And hydrogen will be obtained by electrolysis of water using traditional sources of electricity, hydroelectric power plants and nuclear power plants. Well, some percentage of the wind turbines are involved. For public relations.
                4. Liam
                  Liam 9 June 2021 21: 57
                  0
                  ))))
                  https://www.lkab.com/en/about-lkab/technological-and-process-development/research-collaborations/hybrit--for-fossil-free-steel/

                  )))

                  What else have I missed? Replacing natural gas with harmless hydrogen is not alternative energy sources? Or gas is not a source of energy, but for beauty it is used there
                  Quote: Undecim
                  ... And hydrogen will be obtained by electrolysis of water, using traditional sources of electricity, hydroelectric power plants and nuclear power plants. Well, a certain percentage of wind turbines are used

                  You, as not missing a single school matter, will undoubtedly easily throw off the link about how the Italians and Swedes are going to use nuclear power plants and which ones for the production of hydrogen
                5. Undecim
                  Undecim 9 June 2021 22: 10
                  0
                  Replacing natural gas with harmless hydrogen is not alternative energy sources?
                  It is not a source of energy, it is a reductant.
                  And the link about the Swedish electricity industry is not hard to find. Hydroelectric power station, nuclear power plant, then everything else.
                  Don't tear your heart like that. They implement the project, we will find out everything. After all, if the Swedes are ahead of the rest of the world build the only "Ecometallurgical Plant" on the entire planet, I will only be happy for them. Yet some vanishingly microscopic fraction of iron will be produced on the planet using "carbon-free" technologies.
                6. Liam
                  Liam 9 June 2021 22: 30
                  -1
                  Well, I asked for a link about how the Italians and Swedes are going to use nuclear power plants for this ... as I understand there were no links, which is not surprising.
                  Quote: Undecim
                  They implement the project, we will find out everything.

                  A bit like an epic with Musk's detractors ... but when he does this or that-then we'll talk.This list of achievements walks somewhere on the Web and at what point the process is at the moment.


                  To summarize, our polite battle began with your categorical statement that Kapitsa is definitely right and the lot of alternatives -20% of household consumption, and supposedly 80% of industry is outside of this sphere a priori. Post by post, link by link (and not meaningfully / sarcastic allusions to inaccessible to mere mortal knowledge) first came to the conclusion that small and medium-sized industry (and this is an overwhelming share in the structure of the world industry) are completely switching to alternative and megawatt systems are being installed with might and main. By the way, a megawatt system is some 5000 squares (100 × 50 meters, the area of ​​a very medium-sized 1 workshop in any plant, the cost is 300.000 euros, the payback period is 5/6 years). The next line of Maginot was not the whole industry in general, but only supermegalactic metallurgical plants and their miracle makers that consume some incredible amounts of energy. that everything is changing there and the redoubt has cracked, well, yes, but only partially, but let them do it first, and we'll see .. ...
                  In general, a good result of the conversation for such a chronic skipping of school matters like me, especially considering the level of the opponent) hi
                7. Undecim
                  Undecim 9 June 2021 22: 38
                  +2
                  In general, a good result of the conversation

                  As the Japanese say: "The victory goes to the one who endures half an hour more than his opponent."
                  Even 20 minutes was enough for you to win.
                8. Liam
                  Liam 9 June 2021 22: 47
                  0
                  Victory usually goes to the one who does not underestimate the opponent, and does not broadcast from the pedestal of a monument of his own importance.
                  I'm really not sure if this is Japanese wisdom)
                9. Undecim
                  Undecim 9 June 2021 23: 45
                  +3
                  Internet winners have their own peculiarity. A striking example of tatra, no one has ever been able to defeat it, neither with a pedestal, nor without a pedestal.
  • Grim Reaper
    Grim Reaper 9 June 2021 16: 17
    0
    Quote: Undecim
    Physics is not taught in the fourth grade. In the fourth grade, they teach the understanding that there are specially trained people in every question.

    Yes Yes.
    First, they teach that EARTH is a ball. A little later that geodid. A little later, that the wrong geodit. And in closed classes - we come to three elephants and a turtle.
    Sorry ... I remembered our "half-closed, according to the structure of the Universe" ...
  • Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 09: 48
    +1
    Quote: Liam
    Do you think that the world continues to use stoves that consume 23 MW as in the days of Kapitsa

    you should first study physics at least at the level of the school curriculum
  • Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 09: 44
    +2
    Quote: Liam
    Everyone is wrong. Here is an example of a megawatt industrial complex of solar panels.

    the latitude of the station, the number of sunny days per year, the amount of precipitation, the cost of electricity, the payback time?
  • Israel
    Israel 9 June 2021 14: 33
    0
    And what do they do at night, where do they get the energy from? Or they stop production.
  • Peaceful SEO
    Peaceful SEO 8 June 2021 20: 24
    +1
    Quote: Intruder
    then nothing is clear yet, but I am looking after a 2 kilowatt solar battery for my dacha.
    And why then ... to look closely ??? After all, they themselves wrote about:
    both now and in the future, it is ineffective in comparison with other types of energy.
    wink In the store, you get a compact gas generator (there are now heaps of models, for any wallet and power with different voltages 12 / 220V even), with an output power of up to 3 kW. and a couple of canisters of liquid fuel, (smelly) gasoline with you for every race .., beauty and convenient, in the evening they pulled out from the trunk, threw the cable on the shield into the house and truncated - start from a button or kick-starter with a handle and you can continue to admire the dacha idyllic under the hum of the internal combustion engine, and what gray exhaust goes to birches and raspberry bushes ... mmm ...!? lol

    Alternatively, you can stick a windmill in the country ... Only then you will have to enjoy its buzz. Or a solar panel. True, as a backup, it is so-so, especially if the electricity goes out at night or during a thunderstorm. And the generator on liquid fuel, yes, farts, whistles, but it works when needed, not when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 9 June 2021 10: 44
      0
      Quote: Peaceful SEO
      but works when needed

      more precisely, when there is fuel laughing
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 8 June 2021 20: 34
    -2
    Energy is divided into alternative (green) and classic. Question. Why nobody tries to attend to the combined. A simple example. Solar power plants are not only fields of solar panels. Which, by default, are hopeless for now. These are mirror / lens concentrators that heat the working fluid (fluid) for conventional turbines. The prospects for such stations are wider. They can accumulate heat in heat accumulators and turbines can operate evenly day and night. The capacity reserve of the heat accumulator can neutralize bad weather. There is no need for expensive batteries. Combine a similar station with a gas power plant. The solar part is working at the maximum possible. Gas compensates for the lack of production in relation to consumption. Either with a decrease in the production of the solar part or with an increase in consumption. In this case, the essence of the gas part will simply be in heating the coolant to the temperature required for operation. When a heat accumulator charged from the sun cannot do it. Sori for the messy presentation. I'm not a writer, I can show with my hands when I'm telling.
  • Shahno
    Shahno 8 June 2021 21: 13
    -1
    Quote: gridasov
    By the way, I propose mathematical methods for analyzing big data on functions of a constant value of a number, which allows you to avoid uncertainties.

    Just curious, how big is the data and what is the function?
    # allows you to get away from ambiguities # -that, rediscovered lim ...
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 8 June 2021 21: 22
    +1
    In the conditions of our country, it is difficult to develop any one renewable source of energy efficiency - insolation in most regions is rather unsatisfactory on average per year, this goes hand in hand with the problem of destructive effects on solar panels - expressed in a wide range of external temperatures and humidity. The solar panels themselves, taking into account the ratio of their cost and real earnings in most of the country (and especially in the areas where they are most in demand), are, I would say, a very exotic option, that multiplied by the problems described above increases the payback and risks - and, in general, makes an investment in the Security Council by a gamble (I mean a massive investment).
    Wind generation is a more interesting solution, but for climatic reasons it is also not suitable everywhere because the notorious humidity, temperature changes, delivery and installation of large turbines, including in difficult-to-pass places, as well as the laying of power lines from the bottom to settlements (often with a low population and the name purchasing power of residents) - makes this option close to an adventure. For the repair and operation of wind turbines, taking into account our climate, it will be necessary to lay more funds than in the EU, the structures themselves will be made more stable and durable, the price will be corresponding. higher - the sources of payback in our country are much less than in the EU.
    Hydroelectric power plants are a very useful idea that large or small, however, the construction of hydroelectric power plants faces well-known problems again in our climate - ice drift, icing, wide temperature differences, etc. With a large potential volume of hydroelectric power generation, not so much of this volume is actually developed and practically recouped without strained state subsidies for such projects.
    It makes sense to build geothermal stations only in Kamchatka, but given the imperfect population of this region and its imperfect seismic resistance, economic importance and, for the most part, market factors, this is too large and high-tech stress in comparison with the same coal, sir. It should be understood that geothermal energy is also far from ideal - the corrosive effect on the elements of such a station is very significant, due to the constant influence of an aggressive environment.

    To summarize, the objective prerequisites for accelerating the transition to the Russian Federation to resumed sources of energy efficiency did not develop due to the low real standard of living of the population of most of the country, low economic activity, difficult climate, low culture and high construction costs, as well as the presence of an extensive network of extraction and transportation of non-renewable resources. This trend will not change in the coming decades.
  • zenion
    zenion 8 June 2021 23: 23
    +1
    Windmills are such a noise, so many birds died during the flight. But no one considers them - after us, even the flood.
  • riwas
    riwas 9 June 2021 03: 51
    +3
    On the portal of the analytical center Center of the American Experiment (Minnesota, USA), a study by the famous American energy expert Robert Bryce Not in our backyard (Not in our backyard) has been published. The report shows the downside of green energy.
    https://www.fondsk.ru/news/2021/05/17/obratnaja-temnaja-storona-zelenoj-energetiki-53587.html?fbclid=IwAR1bEd3TfZs7C0_jMbDbBtpj_M2abgXp4bSufiUFkWYPdw3bA-YHfGTF8i8
    Citing research by British scientists at the Natural History Museum in London, Bryce writes that to fully convert the American economy to "clean energy" will require "a gigantic amount of metals and rare earths that will have to be mined to produce a huge number of solar panels and wind turbines." To fully convert motor traffic from ICEs to electric vehicles in the UK alone, it will take twice as much cobalt as is produced globally in a year; almost all world production of neodymium; three quarters of the world's lithium production; at least half of the world's copper production. It will also require a 20-fold (!) Increase in electricity generated in Britain.
    Wind turbine and solar panels require the same rare earth metals as electric vehicles. This alone makes it impossible to transfer even a relatively small UK, let alone the US, to renewable energy sources (RES). The adherents of green energy are silent about this.
    Green energy will require huge land areas required to accommodate wind and solar generation facilities. Biden announced plans to transfer the United States to renewable energy sources envisage the installation of "500 million solar panels, 8 million solar roofs, communal solar energy systems and 60 thousand wind turbines" throughout the country, which will cover an area of ​​228 thousand square meters. miles equal to the area of ​​the states of California and Washington combined.
    All over the country, Bryce writes, local and regional authorities have begun to fight against the installation of renewable energy systems on their lands. Since 2015, more than 300 laws have been introduced in various states in the United States, from Maine and Vermont to California and Hawaii, to prohibit or restrict the installation of wind turbines that produce noise and vibration that threaten the health of people, animals and birds. In the United States, wind turbines kill an average of about 888 bats and 573 birds a year.
  • pylon101
    pylon101 9 June 2021 06: 21
    +3
    Kapitsa was not mistaken one iota.
    When I drive past the world's largest solar power "farm" in California and see the incredible power of the lamps that dazzle even in bright and an inventive mind.
  • the same doctor
    the same doctor 9 June 2021 09: 34
    0
    The Scandinavians will set up a wind farm - there will be a desert in Kazakhstan and Orenburg.
  • meandr51
    meandr51 9 June 2021 09: 43
    +2
    In my opinion, no one has yet considered the complete environmental friendliness of "environmentally friendly" energy. Including its entire life cycle and disposal costs. It's ridiculous to talk about the cost. It is beneficial only where there is no communication.
    1. Grim Reaper
      Grim Reaper 9 June 2021 16: 06
      0
      Quote: meandr51
      In my opinion, no one has yet considered the complete environmental friendliness of "environmentally friendly" energy. Including its entire life cycle and disposal costs. It's ridiculous to talk about the cost. It is beneficial only where there is no communication.

      Not that beneficial. Forces. Yes, in a forgotten corner this is the way out. Sun Batteries if conditions permit. Or windmills. Well, who wants to be left without "light" in the 21st century. ? Although expensive, sometimes the only way out. You are right on tech. The moment alternative energy is the opportunity to get 220 per outlet, today.
      All the rest...
  • Dzenn
    Dzenn 9 June 2021 09: 56
    +3
    Author and you did not write an article for thirty pieces of silver?
    As the winter 20/21 in Texas did not show such clear advantages of alternative energy.
    And if there was no gas supply in Europe under contracts with Gazprom, then the winter for the Europeans would have been the same severe test as in Texas and Asia.
    It was also good to indicate in the article how much energy and resources you need to produce 1 square meter of solar panel, and how long in years it will work out these costs. And subsequently how much energy and resources need to be utilized upon failure.
  • Petrik66
    Petrik66 9 June 2021 10: 00
    +3
    very fashionable theme. Faced with the attempts of the now deceased Luzhkov to engage in green technologies in his fiefdom Medyna - the processing of waste from livestock complexes built in Medyn in a bioreactor. There was talk ..... the Germans calculated the cost of a bioreactor running on manure (roughly) and generating electricity. It is clear that no one counted money, everything was multiplied by three and sawed, but ... when Luzhka was shown the estimated cost of this miracle of technology, he scratched his head and told us where to go with the Germans)))))) just to the EU all of these programs: waste recycling, biodiesel, alternative energy are dated. there is no question of efficiency, a banal sawing up of the dough under a very fashionable topic. So sweet, so noble. Let's remember the ozone holes - WOW what a nightmare, but now everyone is silent about them. So here, as the bablosy begins to run out, the golden yard will impose a tax on hydrocarbon production on everyone, primarily the Chinese and us, and, by a strange coincidence, the states will become the main beneficiaries. The Gretta Tumberg case wins. And Kapitsa is a genius person and I would rather believe him.
  • Israel
    Israel 9 June 2021 14: 36
    +2
    Without the ability to store energy on a gigawatt scale, no solar / wind energy can provide a constant and guaranteed power supply. All that is now is pumped storage stations, but they are not scalable at all and cannot be widely used.
  • Grim Reaper
    Grim Reaper 9 June 2021 15: 46
    +1
    Costs to consider
    1. For production
    2. For disposal.
    3. Hazardousness during disposal.
    4. Yes, a lot of things
    As a result, it turns out that windmills, solar panels are more expensive, simply smeared over the years. Like a loan.
    Well, really who perceives electric vehicles as environmentally friendly? And millions of tons of fuel oil, coal, gas spent on charging these "environmentally friendly"? Yes, it is possible that it will become easier to breathe in a separate metropolis, but in general it will only get worse. Fuel-energy or fuel-electricity-energy. And at each "redistribution" at least 10 percent is lost.
    Forget about "earth day" Few have any idea what this day costs for power plants and the environment. Who came up with the idea of ​​neutering.
    1. Petrik66
      Petrik66 10 June 2021 10: 00
      0
      To this we must add another question about the disposal of batteries. They will again export them to Africa like old computers. But in Europ, everything will be tick tock.
  • dropout
    dropout 9 June 2021 15: 54
    0
    Where are the firewood from? - “From the forest, of course;
    Father, do you hear, chops, and I take away. "
  • Vitaly Tikhonov
    Vitaly Tikhonov 9 June 2021 17: 11
    0
    And what is it that the fundamental laws of physics have changed in this short period of time.? it has become more yes, but matter exists without human participation,
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 9 June 2021 17: 12
    +2
    Quote: Liam
    Everyone is wrong. Here is an example of a megawatt industrial complex of solar panels that ensures the operation of a plant, moreover, it is actually installed, and not advertising.
    https://www.futurasun.com/2018/11/08/1-megawatt-di-pannelli-fotovoltaici-futurasun-sul-tetto-della-baxi/


    For your information, translation from Italian: "All power is 992 kW, which provides 25% of the annual electricity demand of the entire plant.... The total annual energy production is 1 kWh.
    How easy it is to figure out the use of the installed power (992 kW) of about 1300 hours per year in sunny Italy. If the enterprise works in one shift 250 days a year and there are enough batteries, then it is possible to provide up to half of the annual demand. If the enterprise works continuously in three shifts, then the solar energy will be enough for 15% of the annual demand.
    In a specific case, the photovoltaic will be enough for 25% of all the necessary electrical energy.
    Of course, you can feed all your needs with the sun, but then you need to install more than 4 kW of solar panels and several times more batteries. This means the installation will be at least 000 times more expensive.
    1. Liam
      Liam 10 June 2021 08: 25
      -3
      Quote: Kostadinov
      translation from Italian:

      Thanks of course ... but this is how I posted the link, I probably know what it is about.
      The translation is rather needed by the comrades who, relying on their own knowledge of the school physics course for grade 4, Kapitsa's predictions and releases from the PR services of Gazprom, Rosneft, Rosatom and other disinterested companies, filled the thread with statements about the impossibility of using alternative energy sources in industry.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      In a specific case, the photovoltaic will be enough for 25% of all the necessary electrical energy.
      Of course, you can feed all your needs with the sun, but then you need to install more than 4 kW of solar panels and several times more batteries. This means the installation will be at least 000 times more expensive

      And what is the problem? The payback period of the panels is 5/6 years, and their guaranteed life cycle is 25 years.
      1. TiRex
        TiRex 10 June 2021 12: 44
        0
        payback of the panel 5-6 years ??? if only at the equator and in a spherical vacuum. here (Moscow, the Volga region) they (a system of panels with batteries and other automatic equipment) do not pay off at all in principle.
        1. Liam
          Liam 10 June 2021 13: 17
          -2
          Brescia is 45 parallel, Stavropol, Krasnodar, Armavir.
          Quote: TiRex
          nor (the system of panels with batteries and other automatics) does not pay off at all in principle.

          Tell these stories to the Germans, the British, the Norgs and other Swedes. They are about in those residential gyrots and to the north
          1. ABC-schütze
            ABC-schütze 11 June 2021 14: 19
            0
            You'd better tell us something intelligible about their LONG-TERM energy policy. And about its RATIONALE. Desirable, without Europopulist references to the speeches and somersaults of the infantilka "gretchen"
        2. ABC-schütze
          ABC-schütze 11 June 2021 14: 29
          0
          Let us add that the efficiency of the "energy conversion" of any photoconverter depends not only on the "principle" of its operation (conversion "), but also on the ACTUAL state of its SURFACE. a lot of sun ", but there are also enough winds with dust. That is an eternally dusty surface, it will most likely take some time to" give off "electricity, and the fact that it is a" panel "does not work with maximum efficiency, THAT IT WORKS "converts" with far from maximum efficiency, you will hardly notice. And when you "notice", you will have to spend VODICA on washing the "mirror." And, preferably, chemically pure water. And the water supply. And not from the nearest puddle ... And water, MONEY is worth ... so we will add this money to the cost of the "panel" produced and consumed by "you kilowatt x hour? .. Arguing about the" efficiency "of the transformation? ..
  • Victor Tsenin
    Victor Tsenin 10 June 2021 11: 59
    +1
    > But the consumption of electricity by modern appliances has been significantly reduced.
    A controversial thesis, the power of many devices, such as kettles, heating boilers, vacuum cleaners, on the contrary, has grown significantly, as the number of such equipment has increased significantly.

    The bottom line is that the same Germany, which buys gas in countless quantities, is not going to completely switch to nuclear power, because as the whole enlightened world knows, such sources depend on the weather, electricity is more expensive, therefore these options are subsidized and subsidized.

    This does not mean that it is not necessary to develop, on the contrary, of course it is necessary, but it is more suitable for individual powering of households, lighting, and so on.

    The future is still a nuclear power plant, with an emphasis on a closed cycle and, of course, TNPP. On alternative sources, we will not fly away and will not sail away, and this is a fact.

    Why is it not proposed to transfer the thermal power plant to en masse to gas, and to make synthetic fuel from coal, because the Army will be on the internal combustion engine and Co. in the entire foreseeable future?
    1. ABC-schütze
      ABC-schütze 11 June 2021 13: 51
      0
      In general, I agree. Let's also clarify that the number and range of "appliances" consuming electricity in households has grown quite significantly. Yes, a "light bulb" that "shines" like a "seventy" incandescent actually consumes only five watts today. But, excuse me, how much has the energy consumption of PRODUCTION of such "little things" increased? .. Let's say "LED"? .. After all, they have a built-in "stabilizer-converter" and "diodes themselves." n. "planar process." The diode, in principle, is created on it. And the converter contains in its board a stabilizer on the IC and "pass-through transistors" created on the "planar". This is, for example ...
  • TiRex
    TiRex 10 June 2021 12: 41
    +1
    What nonsense have I just read ??? The energy consumption of a unit of equipment may have decreased, but the energy consumption of a household has increased by at least 2-2,5 times, this is by the most conservative estimates. I don’t want to talk about the rest. pulling an owl onto a globe.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 10 June 2021 17: 05
    +1
    Quote: Liam
    And what is the problem? The payback period of the panels is 5/6 years, and their guaranteed life cycle is 25 years.

    To replace 25% of the energy, the capacity of the battery and the loss in the battery will be minimal. You can make it so that the photovoltaic system will work when the weather is sunny, and at night and under the clouds there will be electricity from the network. Then the battery and accumulation losses will be minimal (for about 1 hour of consumption). If it is necessary to replace 100 percent of the electricity with the sun, more than 4 times more panels and many more batteries (about 8 times) are needed to maintain all the energy required for about 6 hours and compensate for the accumulation loss ..
  • ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 11 June 2021 13: 18
    -1
    Well, in this particular case, there is reason to say that EVERYONE was "wrong". And, unfortunately, they stubbornly continue to "make mistakes" for more than one decade ...

    Why?:..

    Because ANY professional conversation about energy, especially about the prospects for its development, should begin with a reminder to the audience of the following AXIOM - Energy, AS IT IS, is ALWAYS subdivided into the so-called. "basic" and the so-called. "alternative"!

    Are you often reminded of this? ..

    Basic energy is energy, the GENERATING capacities of which provide the DEVELOPMENT REQUIREMENTS of the BASIC branches of the NATIONAL economy of the country.

    Alternative energy is a "niche" energy, regardless of the "technologies" used by its GENERATING capacities (the so-called "windmills", the so-called "solar batteries", the so-called "tidal ES", etc. ) creating a "final product" - KILOWATT x HOURS for the consumer.

    The mentioned "niches" are this or that "specificity" (regional-geographical, resource, climatic, ecological, socio-political, etc.), on which the choice of the PRIORITY for the FOLLOWING DEVELOPMENT of the main generating capacities for a given, specific " niches ". Of course, situations are quite possible when, within a single "niche", generating capacities that are based on DIFFERENT technologies for creating the aforementioned "final product" for the consumer - KILOWATT x HOUR can quite harmoniously coexist.

    But what NEVER SHOULD BE DONE is to try to "compare" the development prospects of BASIC and ALTERNATIVE generating capacities. Of course, if you are not "states" such as "San Marino", "Luxembourg" or by nature, resource-scarce "disadvantages".

    For Russia, the PERSPECTIVE BASIS of its BASIC generating capacities will ALWAYS be nuclear power. Until the middle of the century - NUCLEAR "traditional". In the second half of the century (when the NUCLEAR FUSION control technology will be mastered) - THERMONUCLEAR.

    Russia here is an UNIQUE and UNCONDITIONAL world leader. And the "kilowatt x hour" consumed by the BASIC subjects of the NATIONAL economy, from the electricity generated by these capacities, will ALWAYS be the most competitive, STABLE RELIABLE, reliably "RESERVED" and safe.

    Just in case, from the school physics course, many should still remember that the so-called. "fissile" materials, BY DEFINITION, have the LARGEST (by orders of magnitude) level of ENERGY release per unit mass, in comparison with all other types of energy resources ...

    And now, ONLY AFTER THESE "reminders", having specified what (and WHY? ...), in fact, will be discussed further, you can begin more or less (which is much more likely) competent discussions about the "advantages" or "disadvantages" of one or more other generating capacities (and not abstract "energy", as such ...).
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 12 June 2021 20: 03
    0
    Solar and wind farms, on a large scale, have no prospects: they are expensive and harmful to the environment.
  • zwlad
    zwlad 13 June 2021 20: 47
    0
    Green energy is so "green".