Military Review

Exchange of experience in Detroit: visit of Soviet engineers to the armored production of "Ford"

112

Source: kingsford.com


Strategic technologies


Before getting acquainted with the features of armored production at the Michigan Ford plant in Detroit (USA), it is worth briefly explaining the conditions under which the armored industry was being established in the USSR. As you know, everything is learned by comparison.

Armor production during World War II was one of the most important factors in strategic advantage. With the beginning of the war, the Soviet Union found itself in a disastrous position - all armored production was concentrated in the European part of the country. The rapid advance of the German army could completely paralyze production tank reservation in the country. Only at the cost of incredible efforts to evacuate part of the factories to the east at the beginning of the war was it possible to restore the production of armor. The main "armored factories" were Kuznetsk, Nizhny Tagil and Magnitogorsk metallurgical plants.

But the matter was not limited to a simple transfer of production to a new site behind the front line. Most of the new factories were not adapted to the smelting of tank armor - before the war, the factories worked for the needs of the People's Commissariat of Ferrous Metallurgy. Wartime has added its own adjustments. Now the open-hearth furnaces often had low-skilled workers, there was an acute problem of the lack of special thermal, pressing and metal-working equipment. Therefore, the transfer of armor production was accompanied by a serious restructuring of the technology itself for smelting military steel. So, it was necessary to adapt production to the main open-hearth furnaces for 120-180 tons, excluding the process of diffusion deoxidation. The hardening of armor plates and armor parts had to be carried out in water.

Such a simplification could not but affect the quality of the armor received. This is especially true for the most difficult to manufacture high-hardness tank steel 8C. The very first samples of armor plates on tests showed significant slate and layering of the fracture, a high tendency to crack formation during welding and straightening. In addition to this, field tests revealed the excessive fragility of the armor samples during shell fire.


Tank production in Detroit. Source: pinteres.com

Such defects could not be ignored. And in the specialized TsNII-48, a number of improvements have been developed. First of all, from now on, armor steel was supposed to be smelted only in preheated furnaces after smelting "civil" grades of steel. The steel had to boil in the open-hearth smelting bath for at least an hour and a half, and poured into square or convex molds. In addition, metallurgists paid special attention to the sulfur content in the original pig iron (no more than 0,06%), as well as carbon and manganese. In combination with other measures, this made it possible to improve the quality of the armor. In particular, to reduce the slate and layering of the fracture.

An important problem was the technology of heat treatment of domestic armor. To put it simply, the hardening and tempering of the armor plates took too much time and energy, and the necessary equipment was lacking. It was necessary to simplify the process. In this regard, we will give a typical example. In 48, the metallurgists of TsNII-1942 managed to simplify the process of thermal preparation so much that only for parts of the bottoms of KV and T-34 tanks they saved about 3230 furnace-hours per 100 hulls.


One of the factories of the Ford Motors factory empire. Source: pinteres.com

Nevertheless, until the very end of the war in the Soviet Union, the conditions for the production of strategically important tank armor were far from required. The same cannot be said about the military industry of the overseas partner, whose territory was not affected by the world war. The Soviet metallurgical engineers had to make sure of this once again on February 26, 1945, 72 days before the Victory.

American luxury


Little known history Vasily Vladimirovich Zapariy, Candidate of Historical Sciences of the Institute of History and Archeology of the Ural Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences, announced the visit by the Soviet delegation to the Ford armored factory in Detroit. The scientist's material is based on the report of Soviet metallurgists on the results of a trip to the United States stored in the Russian State Archive of Economics (RGAE). It should be noted that the RGAE is simply a treasure trove of archival documents from the era of the Great Patriotic War related to the production of military equipment and equipment. One can only guess how many more secrets the archive keeps in the secret evidence.

According to engineers who returned from Detroit, the armored workshop of the Ford plant was a building consisting of two spans measuring 273 meters in length, 30 meters in width and about 10 meters in height. At the same time, the shop did not smelt armor. It was mainly intended for heat treatment and cutting of steel. This naturally aroused particular interest among Soviet metallurgists, given the above-described problems of domestic armored production. The main production profile of the Ford Motors workshop was working with armor up to 76 mm thick. Heat-treated steel sheets were used to weld the hulls of light and medium armored vehicles at other factories in Detroit.


The supply to the armored shop of the Ford plant was carried out by approximately the following enterprises. Source: pbs.org

First of all, the mechanization of the production process impressed the Ford workshops. After melting and rolling, the armor plates were delivered to the heat treatment shop on hydraulic table loaders United. The loaders, in turn, took the armor from the railway platforms located near the workshop. In the workshop itself, there were two bridge cranes designed to move armor sheets during all technological operations, with the exception of hardening processes.

To create the necessary crystalline structure of the armor, two presses, with an effort of 2500 tons each, five 70-meter continuous method furnaces and five 100-meter gas tempering conveyor furnaces were called upon. Water was supplied to the armor hardening presses through the operation of six pumps at once, pumping more than 3700 liters per minute. As domestic engineers wrote, the complexity and cost of the design of such presses, capable of simultaneously stamping and cooling red-hot armor, were prohibitive. At the same time, there were doubts about the advisability of using presses for armor with a thickness of 30–76 mm. Here, the intensity of water supply for cooling came to the fore.


The Ford factory complex in Detroit. Photo of the pre-war period. Source: wikipedia.org

The 2500-ton presses weren't the only ones in the Ford armored vehicle. Toledo presses # 206 were engaged in cutting thin armor and developed a pressure of 161 tons. For armor thicker than 2,5 cm, exclusively fire cutting was used.

During a visit to the enterprise, metallurgists were able to see the process of hardening thin bulletproof armor. Under a press of 1000 tons, it stayed for 15 seconds, and then the sheet was sent for 2,5 hours for quenching at 900 degrees Celsius and for four hours of vacation at 593 degrees.

All this technical wealth was observed by Soviet engineers, not counting various "small accessories": welding machines, milling machines, scissors and the like.

The main feature of the heat treatment of the armor was the continuous flow of production. At almost all stages of processing, steel sheets were in the process of moving on roller and chain conveyors. The conveyor was controlled from a central control panel. At one of the last stages, all armor plates were inspected for the level of Brinell hardness. In this case, the fluctuation of the test parameter from sheet to sheet should be minimal - no more than 0,2 mm.

The Soviet delegation was especially interested in two shot blasting machines, which cleaned the armor plates almost after each technological operation. Such perfectionism and such a luxury could only be afforded by Americans, far from the hardships of wartime.
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  1. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins April 20 2021 06: 26
    +10
    Though short, but quite interesting article. Thanks to the author.
    In the photo, where there are two workshops, one, outwardly, is very similar to the one in which I had a chance to work in the "XNUMXs"))) True, we already have it)))
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter April 20 2021 07: 19
      -1
      The article is really very curious and informative.
  2. Professor
    Professor April 20 2021 06: 49
    .
    Such perfectionism and such a luxury could only be afforded by Americans, far from the hardships of wartime.

    This is not a luxury, but the dire necessity and hardships of wartime, the Americans had more than enough.

    The article as a whole is interesting showing the openness of the allies demonstrating the technological process. Although the title of the article is not correct. There was no "Exchange of experience", but there was "Training by the Americans ..."
    1. apro
      apro April 20 2021 07: 10
      +8
      Quote: Professor
      the hardships of wartime the Americans had more than enough

      As I understand it, the gas coupons for personal US and the distribution of nylon stockings were very burdensome for Americans.
      1. Professor
        Professor April 20 2021 07: 22
        .
        Quote: apro
        Quote: Professor
        the hardships of wartime the Americans had more than enough

        As I understand it, the gas coupons for personal US and the distribution of nylon stockings were very burdensome for Americans.

        Well, what kind of hardships are you? 16 million young Americans went to the front (11% of the total population) and women stood at the mill, plowed and sowed. Is this a burden compared to the distribution of nylon stockings? Everyone knows that the hardships were in only one country.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter April 20 2021 07: 27
          +11
          Quote: Professor
          16 million young Americans went to the front (11% of the total population) and women stood at the mill, plowed and sowed.

          16 million ?! Are you serious? Let me know which front?
          1. Professor
            Professor April 20 2021 07: 37
            .
            Quote: Stroporez
            16 million ?! Are you serious? Let me know which front?

            Sorry, was not accurate. Not 16 million, but 16,112,566 (sixteen million one hundred twelve thousand five hundred sixty six. Not five or seven, but six.
            On all fronts.

            PS

            405,399 killed 671,278 wounded. 130,201 were taken prisoner, 116,129 returned home from captivity. Picnic, not hardships.
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter April 20 2021 08: 04
              +6
              Quote: Professor
              Professor (Sokolov Oleg)

              Colleague, are you saying that 16 million American soldiers fought on the western front? This cannot be, even taking into account the Japanese theater of operations. As of May 1945, there were 11 million 300 thousand people in the ranks of the Red Army. And how many servicemen were in the Red Army over the years of the Second World War, tell me?
              1. Professor
                Professor April 20 2021 08: 20
                +1
                Quote: Stroporez
                Quote: Professor
                Professor (Sokolov Oleg)

                Colleague, are you saying that 16 million American soldiers fought on the western front? This cannot be, even taking into account the Japanese theater of operations. As of May 1945, there were 11 million 300 thousand people in the ranks of the Red Army. And how many servicemen were in the Red Army over the years of the Second World War, tell me?

                I wrote nothing about the Western Front. I argue that 11% of the working population in the United States went to the front and the hardships of wartime fell on the American people, including women.
                1. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter April 20 2021 08: 23
                  +11
                  Quote: Professor
                  I claim that 11% of the working population in the United States went to the front

                  Go to the army and to the front, these are two big differences. This is what we are talking about.
                  1. Professor
                    Professor April 20 2021 08: 44
                    -2
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    Quote: Professor
                    I claim that 11% of the working population in the United States went to the front

                    Go to the army and to the front, these are two big differences. This is what we are talking about.

                    No, that's not the point. Speech about hardships for Americans and adherence to the technical process which the author calls "luxury".
                    1. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter April 20 2021 09: 51
                      +3
                      Quote: Professor
                      No, that's not the point. Speech about hardships for Americans and adherence to the technical process which the author calls "luxury".

                      Agree that the hardships of the USSR, which is at war on its territory, are absolutely incomparable with the "hardships" of the United States. Now, if they opened a second front in Europe at least in the 42nd, then it would be possible to speak of a "contribution" to the Victory. Otherwise, you can still recall the supplies from the United States to Nazi Germany of armored steel and a lot of other things that killed our soldiers on the eastern front.
                      I have two grandfathers on the battlefields, but out of 9 cousins, only three returned!
                      In our family, from time immemorial, everyone was dovecote, so when all the elders went to the front, snotty boys drove flocks of pets to attract city pigeons, exclusively in soup, they fed the babies with broth, when mothers worked in factories, and they themselves ate messy grass and burdocks with nettles. These are the hardships!
                      1. Professor
                        Professor April 20 2021 12: 15
                        -2
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        Agree that the hardships of the USSR, which is at war on its territory, are absolutely incomparable with the "hardships" of the United States.

                        I disagree. A woman working at the machine for 12 hours, whose husband is at the front, and the children are asking for food is equally difficult in the USSR and in the USA. Yes, life in the United States was easier, but the hardships from this do not become much easier.

                        Quote: Stroporez
                        Now, if they opened a second front in Europe at least in the 42nd, then it would be possible to speak of a "contribution" to the Victory. Otherwise, you can still recall the supplies from the United States to Nazi Germany of armored steel and a lot of other things that killed our soldiers on the eastern front.

                        Let's then remember the supplies from the USSR to Nazi Germany while Great Britain was already at war with Hitler. Do not forget that the last train with raw materials for Hitler passed from the USSR on June 22, 1941. And the second front has nothing to do with it. After all, the USSR did not open a second front in the East when the Japanese attacked the United States. And none of this diminishes the hardships of the American people.

                        Quote: Stroporez
                        I have two grandfathers on the battlefields, but out of 9 cousins, only three returned!

                        Blessed is their memory.

                        Quote: Stroporez
                        In our family, from time immemorial, everyone was dovecote, so when all the elders went to the front, snotty boys drove flocks of pets to attract city pigeons, exclusively in soup, they fed the babies with broth, when mothers worked in factories, and they themselves ate messy grass and burdocks with nettles. These are the hardships!

                        You decided that this American woman had a life like a fairy tale. Then I cannot convince you.
                      2. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter April 20 2021 12: 26
                        +10
                        Quote: Professor
                        You decided that this American woman had a life like a fairy tale. Then I cannot convince you.

                        The only difference is that this and other American women were not bombed.
                        My grandmother is a member of the VKP (b) party since 1924, having 1941 underage children in her arms by 7, by January-February 42 there were three left. By the 43rd there were two left, my Father and Uncle.
                        Here is such a statistic. soldier
                      3. Professor
                        Professor April 20 2021 13: 35
                        -5
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        Quote: Professor
                        You decided that this American woman had a life like a fairy tale. Then I cannot convince you.

                        The only difference is that this and other American women were not bombed.
                        My grandmother is a member of the VKP (b) party since 1924, having 1941 underage children in her arms by 7, by January-February 42 there were three left. By the 43rd there were two left, my Father and Uncle.
                        Here is such a statistic. soldier

                        The Germans did not bomb most of the territory of the USSR either. Neither Siberia, nor the Urals, nor the Far East. Central Asia did not know what bombing was, and in a large way, neither did Transcaucasia. It turns out that they did not have hardships? request

                        I will not say anything about the losses in my family. This has nothing to do with the hardships of the American people.
                      4. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter April 20 2021 13: 56
                        +5
                        Quote: Professor
                        The Germans did not bomb most of the territory of the USSR either. Neither Siberia, nor the Urals, nor the Far East. Central Asia didn't know what bombing was

                        Yes, only there city factories were evacuated by bombing and issued "Leningrad limit" by cards.
                        And frankly speaking, Yusa is the only country that won in WW2.
                        Even 500 thousand killed is not a price for the fact that mattresses were purchased in monetary and scientific terms.
                      5. Professor
                        Professor April 20 2021 15: 28
                        -7
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        Yes, only there city factories were evacuated by bombing and issued "Leningrad limit" by cards.

                        Listen to you like this before the war beyond the Urals there was not a single factory.

                        Quote: Stroporez
                        And frankly speaking, Yusa is the only country that won in WW2.
                        Even 500 thousand killed is not a price for the fact that mattresses were purchased in monetary and scientific terms.

                        Who prevented the USSR from developing industry, small business, attracting foreign scientists, and integrating into the world economy? And interfered from 1917 to 1991? And from 1991, who is in the way until 2021? Do not answer.
                      6. gsev
                        gsev April 21 2021 01: 18
                        -2
                        Quote: Professor
                        And from 1991, who is in the way until 2021?

                        Foreign investment and integration into global business.
                      7. alekszeit
                        alekszeit 21 May 2021 14: 32
                        0
                        US interfered, you do not know that the USSR was under sanctions?
                    2. roll
                      roll 4 June 2021 10: 38
                      0
                      Well, the USSR also tried to play, so the citizens of the USSR got the consequences from the polymers brewed by their owners. As a result, you pushed in:

                      “... - In the Kremlin (Stalin, Molotov, Zhdanov).
                      Stalin:
                      - The war is going on between two groups of capitalist countries (rich and poor in terms of colonies, raw materials, etc.). For the redivision of the world, for domination over the world!
                      - We are not averse to them having a good fight and weakening each other.
                      - It's not bad if the position of the richest capitalist countries (especially England) was shaken by the hands of Germany.
                      - Hitler, not realizing this and not wanting to, is shaking and undermining the capitalist system.
                      - The position of the communists in power is different from that of the communists in opposition.
                      - We are the masters of our home.
                      - The communists in the capitalist countries are in opposition, where the bourgeoisie is the boss.
                      We can maneuver, push one side against the other, so that we get torn apart better. "
                  2. Usher
                    Usher April 21 2021 02: 38
                    +4
                    Quote: Professor
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    Quote: Professor
                    You decided that this American woman had a life like a fairy tale. Then I cannot convince you.

                    The only difference is that this and other American women were not bombed.
                    My grandmother is a member of the VKP (b) party since 1924, having 1941 underage children in her arms by 7, by January-February 42 there were three left. By the 43rd there were two left, my Father and Uncle.
                    Here is such a statistic. soldier

                    The Germans did not bomb most of the territory of the USSR either. Neither Siberia, nor the Urals, nor the Far East. Central Asia did not know what bombing was, and in a large way, neither did Transcaucasia. It turns out that they did not have hardships? request

                    I will not say anything about the losses in my family. This has nothing to do with the hardships of the American people.

                    moreover, they spat on their ancestors. Having written about the mythical "hardships". You "professor" specifically write any nonsense under each article? Somehow I talked to an American. So he also tried to explain such nonsense to me, I told him both facts and an analyst. No, he rested his forehead, Russia is an aggressive country, and according to him, the United States brings peace and prosperity. His most weighty argument is "so the media said." I just don't understand, like not a stupid man. And he bears nonsense, something is stuck in his head and chronically does not want to open his eyes. So here you are everywhere, across the wool, grabbed some scraps somewhere. Either you defend the Azeris with the Turks, then write back that the Turks are your enemies. Then again you defend the Turks from the Greeks, then again the opposite. Then write about the "hardships" and mythical 16 million young guys. not more than 1,5 million US soldiers fought directly in Europe, and even fewer of them were in the active army. The hardships, yeah.
              2. alekc75
                alekc75 April 21 2021 07: 41
                0
                warm without bombing in abundance of food !! and we had all this everywhere ???
              3. roll
                roll 4 June 2021 11: 04
                0
                So it just happened that the Soviets sowed, then their subjects and poured ... As Comrade Stalin said:
                "- We are not averse to them having a good fight and weakening each other.
                - It's not bad if the position of the richest capitalist countries (especially England) was shaken by the hands of Germany.
                - Hitler, not realizing this and not wanting to, is shaking and undermining the capitalist system.
                - The communists in the capitalist countries are in opposition, where the bourgeoisie is the boss. We can maneuver, push one side against the other, so that we get torn apart better. "
            2. alekszeit
              alekszeit 21 May 2021 14: 29
              0
              well, why are you wishful thinking ?. Americans have never worked 12 hours a day, unless it is technologically necessary. The Americans did not experience a shortage of qualified specialists, even we had a reservation, even for students. And if you cite the work of women as proof, then it would be high time to know that women, thanks to their psychology, work better than men on conveyors. And they always worked and oh, look how many of them are on conveyors in our aircraft industry, not to mention car factories. And who do you want to fool that yesterday's housewife was put on the assembly of an aircraft engine? Why lie about 16 million sent to the front? Why not honestly write, drafted into the army, drafted throughout the war. Where did they serve, in Miami or in active units? You are not aware that they have a contract system, the pilot flew off, say 50 sorties and that's it, good-bye war, went home to take part in an advertising campaign. And lastly, do you really think that the USSR on December 7, 1941 could declare war on Japan, or are you holding everyone here for fools? By the way, do you know that the United States demanded that the USSR sign commitments to enter the war with Japan and even suspended the supply of Lend-Lease, since, according to the calculations of American generals, without the USSR, they could end the war only at the end of 46, the beginning of 47?
          2. kalibr
            kalibr April 20 2021 15: 48
            +2
            Quote: Stroporez
            Otherwise, you can still recall the supply of armor steel from the USA to Nazi Germany

            And they were? Will you give a link to your dissertation or monograph?
          3. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter April 20 2021 16: 10
            -4
            Quote: kalibr
            those for a dissertation or monograph?

            Who will declassify documents of this kind?
          4. Undecim
            Undecim April 20 2021 17: 30
            +5
            So if they are classified, where does the information come from?
          5. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter April 20 2021 17: 40
            +1
            Quote: Undecim
            So if they are classified, where does the information come from?

            Well, for example wink https://topwar.ru/35451-lend-liz-dlya-gitlera.html
          6. Undecim
            Undecim April 20 2021 17: 50
            +8
            Sorry, but the value of this site as a source of such information is less than zero. I remember this scribble by an unknown author with a reference to a broken link.
          7. kalibr
            kalibr April 20 2021 18: 01
            +2
            There were no references to documents and monographs. This is not the source!
          8. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter April 20 2021 18: 17
            0
            Quote: Undecim
            Sorry, but the value of this site as a source of such information is less than zero. I remember this scribble by an unknown author with a reference to a broken link.

            My friends! hi It is clear that this is an "article" laughing so refute it with all the strength of the arguments yes Or is Krupp not "Krupp" at all? wink
            here's a topic for new articles)))
            PySy. If sho, apply for shock creative yes drinks
          9. kalibr
            kalibr April 20 2021 18: 50
            +1
            And where can I get information? Many times I have given a specific reference to the "Communication of the Soviet Government ..." in Pravda dated June 11, 1944. Has anyone read it? Did anyone link in the comments later? Not! So why would I waste time, effort and money on something that ... is not needed? Anyway, for 80% we are "good in everything", and "they" are bad in everything. Well, let it be so.
          10. Undecim
            Undecim April 20 2021 20: 18
            0
            so refute it with all the strength of the arguments

            You can take my word for it. You may not believe it. As for hamsters - turbopatriots, then any denials to them - to the ass.
          11. Undecim
            Undecim April 20 2021 21: 01
            +3
            As a confirmation of my words - one such has already been noted.
  3. kalibr
    kalibr April 20 2021 17: 59
    +3
    Then how do you know about this?
  4. alekszeit
    alekszeit 21 May 2021 14: 44
    0
    On June 21, the State Department reported to the government: “We must firmly adhere to the following policy: the fact that the Soviet Union is fighting Germany does not mean defending them, fighting for or agreeing with the principles of international relations that we adhere to. We must not give the Soviet Union any promises in advance regarding the assistance that we can provide in the event of a German-Soviet conflict, and not assume any obligations regarding our future assistance to the Soviet Union, or Germany. " The official point of view of the US government on the Soviet-German war was formulated by and. about. Secretary of State S. Welles at a press conference on June 23, 1941. “For the United States, the principles and doctrines of the communist dictatorship are as intolerant and alien as the principles and doctrines of the Nazi dictatorship,
  5. roll
    roll 4 June 2021 11: 10
    0
    Perfectly written, perfectly fair and reasonable about both types of disgusting dictatorships. It's a shame that only the damned Roosevelt didn't stick to these wise recommendations.
  • apro
    apro April 20 2021 07: 32
    +11
    Quote: Professor
    16 million young Americans went to the front (11% of the total population)

    It is clear that how many took part in real hostilities ??? and when, before the landing in Normandy, less than 1 million participated in the battles at a time.
    Quote: Professor
    and the women got up to the machine, plowed and sowed.

    American unemployment was eliminated only by 1943. And finding a job was a joy. Americans fondly remember that time. There was work and there was relative prosperity.
    Quote: Professor
    Everyone knows that the hardships were in only one country.

    And they try to forget all this.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 20 2021 08: 03
      .
      Quote: apro
      It is clear that how many took part in real hostilities ??? and when, before the landing in Normandy, less than 1 million participated in the battles at a time.

      The same can be asked about the soldiers of the Red Army. Did everyone take part in real hostilities?

      Quote: apro
      American unemployment was eliminated only by 1943. And finding a job was a joy. Americans fondly remember that time. There was work and there was relative prosperity.

      https://www.striking-women.org/module/women-and-work/world-war-ii-1939-1945#:~:text=During%20WWII%20women%20worked%20in,as%20conductors%20and%20as%20nurses.

      nylon stockings? work for joy?
      1. apro
        apro April 20 2021 08: 11
        +11
        Quote: Professor
        work for joy?

        When they pay for it.
        Quote: Professor
        The same can be asked about the soldiers of the Red Army.

        Of course, it is possible, because the Soviets cooled off at Stalingrad and Kursk, when the Americans shed their blood by storming another island in the Pacific Ocean with a regiment of marines.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 20 2021 08: 24
          -8
          Quote: apro
          When they pay for it.

          In the USSR, those who stood at the machine were also paid. And money and most importantly grocery cards. By the way, my grandfather was also paid at the front, and this money sent to my grandmother working in an orphanage helped a lot.

          Quote: apro
          Of course, it is possible, because the Soviets cooled off at Stalingrad and Kursk, when the Americans shed their blood by storming another island in the Pacific Ocean with a regiment of marines.

          Of course. How could soulless Americans fight? Everyone knows that only the USSR won the Second World War. And alone.
          1. Essex62
            Essex62 April 20 2021 08: 52
            +1
            In fact, it was the USSR that won, grinding the bulk of the most combat-ready Axis army. Crazy stamped on the TO theater, regardless of its technical and quantitative superiority and never completed the case. The USSR had to intervene locally. In Europe, after a sort of successful landing, they got hit in the head by the Boches in the Ardennes from the outnumbered, not the most, combat-ready rear German divisions.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 20 2021 09: 17
              +11
              In fact, it was the USSR that won, grinding the bulk of the most combat-ready army

              Quite right - 83% of the Wehrmacht's losses are the work of the Red Army
              In Europe, after a seemingly successful landing, they got hit in the head by the Boches in the Ardennes from the outnumbered, not the most, combat-ready rear German divisions

              For the Ardennes operation, Hitler allocated the 6th SS Panzer Army, 5th Tank Army, etc., that is, very serious forces. The allies had more people, and the Germans had more equipment (1300 tanks against 1800 German ones). The offensive got stuck on the 9th day, and then the weather improved and the American / Royal Air Force, which the Luftwaffe could not really oppose, began to beat the Germans from the air. It all ended with the failure of the Germans.
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 20 2021 10: 45
              +8
              Quote: Essex62
              In Europe, after a sort of successful landing, they got hit in the head by the Boches in the Ardennes from the outnumbered, not the most, combat-ready rear German divisions.

              Um ... that is. You want to say. that the Soviet army in 1945 was barely able to stop the offensive inferior in number, not the most, partly, combat-ready rear German divisions?
              Because at Balaton and in the Ardennes, the same 6 TA SS fought.
              1. Essex62
                Essex62 April 21 2021 08: 39
                -1
                Two TA power is, of course, very serious. But what I wanted to say, you understand. Most of the units in the ZF for the Germans consisted of the least combat-ready reservists, excluding, of course, TD and DG SS. Everything was given to the WF. And the double superiority in numbers, overwhelming in aviation, and this is a decisive factor. Nevertheless, the Germans managed to pile on the allies and Stalin had to launch an offensive ahead of schedule in order to help them.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA April 21 2021 10: 24
                  +2
                  Quote: Essex62
                  Nevertheless, the Germans managed to pile on the allies and Stalin had to launch an offensive ahead of schedule in order to help them.

                  The premature start of the offensive is the official Soviet version, which was announced by Stalin in Yalta to obtain preferences for the division of Europe.
                  In fact, the planning of operations began in the fall of 1944, the frontline plan was ready in December, and the withdrawal of troops to the concentration areas began even before the New Year. The funny thing is that the offensive was delayed for several days due to extremely unfavorable weather conditions.
                2. Essex62
                  Essex62 April 21 2021 15: 27
                  -2
                  The Soviet version is the only true one, always. And the readiness and terms were determined only by the Supreme Commander. Therefore, we were always ready. Naturally, we are talking about the final stage.
                  What preferences are we talking about? The power of the SA would decide any attempt to keep us out of the way. The inaccuracy of intelligence data on the number of products in mattress mats, and, probably, honesty in the union issue did not allow the establishment of socialism in the whole gamerope. But in vain.
          2. Operator
            Operator April 20 2021 13: 01
            -1
            In WWII, the United States had everything in chocolate - both the war on foreign territory, and 16 million and a few pennies drafted into the armed forces (who sat behind our backs who knows where - in Hawaii, obviously), and the world's largest sea and air fleets, n impressive defense industry with perfectionist bells and whistles, but the Japanese army in the originally American theater of operations had to smash the Red Army after 4 years of "war" there of our "partners" (God forgive me).
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 20 2021 18: 34
              0
              Quote: Operator
              but the Japanese army in the originally American theater of operations had to smash the Red Army after 4 years of "war" there of our "partners" (God forgive me).

              I recommend asking what the Kwantung Army was like in 1945 and where did its best formations go.
              For your information:
              In 1944 and early 1945 many divisions were recalled from the Kwantung Army to the metropolis and to the southern fronts. In just 10 months, during which I commanded 1 front, 6 divisions were withdrawn from the front. Among them: 11, 25 infantry divisions and 1 tank division - to the metropolis, 111 and 120 infantry divisions - to Korea and 12 infantry divisions to FORMOZU.

              In July 1945, at the direction of the headquarters of the Kwantung Army, the 1st front formed 134, 135 and 139 front and 132 mixed brigades. For the formation of these formations, in addition to the conscripted Japanese and Koreans who lived in MANCHURIA, various small detachments and units were used, including those from the border garrisons. Formation, in general, had time to finish by July 30, but not completely, because a certain number of people and weapons (guns and machine guns) were not enough.

              In July 1945, the formation of new formations was also carried out in the districts of 3 fronts, which almost all were re-created during this period and in the districts of 4 armies. In early July 1945, 59 pd arrived from China to Korea.
              © Protocol of interrogation of the Commander 1 Front of General Seiichi
              That is, in Manchuria we were greeted by a shadow of its former greatness. Most of the old divisions were pulled out of the Kwantung Army, and freshly formed and understaffed ones were thrust in their place. In short, about the same situation as that of the Far Eastern Front in 1941. smile

              Iosif Vissarionovich started the war with Japan only on time, actually jumping on the bandwagon of the departing train. Otherwise, Japan could capitulate without us - and the USSR would have remained without the Kuriles, without half of Sakhalin, and even with the Chiang Kai-shekists at hand.
              Quote: Operator
              In WWII, the United States had everything in chocolate - both a war on foreign territory, and 16 million with a penny drafted into the armed forces (who sat behind our backs it is unknown where - in Hawaii, obviously)

              The same claims about sitting behind their backs in 1939-1941. you can also show the USSR. There will also be trade and cooperation with the Nazis.
              1. Operator
                Operator April 20 2021 19: 17
                0
                If the Japanese army was so weak, why was Roosevelt lying at Stalin's feet at the Yalta Conference, begging for the USSR to enter the war with Japan? 16 million Americans alone with tanks, aircraft and artillery would sweep away everything in their path.

                The USA, Britain and France in 1933-39 not only traded with Germany after the Nazis came to power, but simply stuffed the Germans with loans, refusal of reparations and restrictions under the Versailles Treaty, feeding Austria and the Czech Republic in order to turn Germany against the USSR. Therefore, we had every right to punish the Westerners with trade with Germany in 1939-41.
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA April 21 2021 10: 29
                +3
                Quote: Operator
                If the Japanese army was so weak, why was Roosevelt lying at Stalin's feet at the Yalta Conference, begging for the USSR to enter the war with Japan?

                So why lose your soldiers when you can sign an ally to this cause? And skim the cream off, getting Japan into its undivided possession (this time - no zones of occupation).
                And according to the results of the war, the ally was planned to solemnly hand over the shish with butter and the Kuomintang at his side.
              3. Operator
                Operator April 21 2021 10: 59
                -1
                And what am I talking about - there is a general strategy of the United States in WWII to sit behind the back of an ally. This is where the US refusal to use nuclear weapons against the USSR stems from 1945, when the Americans did not have a single ally with the same back as the Soviet Union.

                As Churchill said: "If a country chooses shame between war and shame, then it will receive both a war [economic with the PRC], and shame [BLM]" - which is what we see now bully
    2. apro
      apro April 20 2021 12: 23
      +6
      Quote: Professor
      In the USSR, those who stood at the machine were also paid

      But he ate what was given out on ration cards, and in terms of calorie intake, the Soviet worker could not compete with any German, let alone American, and worked both for himself and for the guy at the front.
      Quote: Professor
      How could soulless Americans fight?

      I do not understand your thought. Soviet generally atheistic in the bulk. On the court with God there were both Germans and Americans.

      Quote: Professor
      Everyone knows that only the USSR won the Second World War. And alone.

      Not alone, but it’s ugly to be poor and to make yourself look badly hurt.
      1. Professor
        Professor April 20 2021 15: 33
        +1
        Quote: apro
        But he ate what was given out on ration cards, and in terms of calorie intake, the Soviet worker could not compete with any German, let alone American, and worked both for himself and for the guy at the front.

        Who is responsible for the flavor?

        Quote: apro
        I do not understand your thought. Soviet generally atheistic in the bulk. On the court with God there were both Germans and Americans.

        In your opinion, the war was only at Stalingrad, but in the Pacific Ocean the Americans were sunbathing? Or is the blood of an American soldier not as thick as that of a Soviet?

        Quote: apro
        Not alone, but it’s ugly to be poor and to make yourself look badly hurt.

        Not alone? Thank you anyway. China lost 1,325,000 soldiers killed, 1,761,000 wounded. They killed 7,750,000 civilians. Will the contribution of the Chinese be taken into account in the victory?
        1. apro
          apro April 20 2021 15: 40
          +3
          Quote: Professor
          Who is responsible for the flavor?

          An excellent move professor. It depends on the conditions under which the wartime introduces its correctives.
          Quote: Professor
          Or is the blood of an American soldier not as thick as that of a Soviet?

          Everyone has the same blood, different interests, and everyone has their own war, some for their homeland, and some for grandmothers.
          Quote: Professor
          Will the contribution of the Chinese be taken into account in the victory?

          Certainly, especially the Chinese Communists, are the most implacable opponents of the Japanese.
          1. Professor
            Professor April 20 2021 16: 15
            -1
            Quote: apro
            An excellent move professor. It depends on the conditions under which the wartime introduces its correctives.

            Wartime in the USSR and the USA coincided. Who is responsible for the flavor?

            Quote: apro
            Everyone has the same blood, different interests, and everyone has their own war, some for their homeland, and some for grandmothers.

            The Americans fought for their homeland. Money allowances were paid in the Red Army as well.

            Quote: apro
            Certainly, especially the Chinese Communists, are the most implacable opponents of the Japanese.

            Nice. The Chinese have contributed millions of their lives to the common victory. So we will write it down.
            What about the Indians, 2,393,891 soldiers at the front, 32,121 dead? The Australians with 1,086,343 and the Canadians with a million soldiers at the front count? 410,056 South Africans? Do we take into account 5,896,000 Britons, or is it a victory for some, and the rest are greased?
          2. apro
            apro April 20 2021 16: 23
            0
            Quote: Professor
            Wartime in the USSR and the USA coincided

            CGA lost during the war territories comparable to the USSR?
            Quote: Professor
            Americans fought for their homeland

            Willingly believe.
            Quote: Professor
            victory is only for one,

            The Soviets fought in the Great Patriotic War, and the rest in the WWII, which they unleashed with specific goals. To divide the world. The Soviets had the goal of protecting the USSR.
          3. Professor
            Professor April 21 2021 06: 23
            -4
            Quote: apro
            CGA lost during the war territories comparable to the USSR?

            SGA? I don’t know that.

            Quote: apro
            The Soviets fought in the Great Patriotic War, and the rest in the WWII, which they unleashed with specific goals. To divide the world. The Soviets had the goal of protecting the USSR.

            Yes? You just do not know that WWII was unleashed by Germany and the USSR by dividing the "zones of influence" in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
          4. apro
            apro April 21 2021 06: 41
            +3
            Quote: Professor
            You just don't know

            Also in the know. Who divided Europe in Munich. And who gave promises to Poland. And who agreed how in July 1939 in Moscow.
            Quote: Professor
            I don’t know this.

            United States of America.
          5. Professor
            Professor April 21 2021 07: 10
            -5
            Quote: apro
            Also in the know. Who divided Europe in Munich. And who gave promises to Poland. And who agreed how in July 1939 in Moscow.

            Well, we found out who unleashed WWII with specific goals to divide the world.

            Quote: apro
            United States of America.

            newspeak?
          6. apro
            apro April 21 2021 08: 03
            +3
            Quote: Professor
            Well, we found out who unleashed WWII with specific goals to divide the world

            As I understand it, you, dear, made a historic discovery. Proving the presence in Munich of IVS Stalin and VM Molotov? And that the USSR signed a mutual defense treaty with Poland. And that the USSR signed a mutual defense treaty with England and France in Ilyul 1939?
            Quote: Professor
            newspeak?

            Precise definition.
    3. atalef
      atalef April 21 2021 07: 11
      -3
      Quote: apro
      The Soviets fought in the Great Patriotic War, and the rest in the WWII

      absolutely correct.
      The rest have fought since 1939 (if you don't know when WWII began) during these years, Molotov and Robentrop even kissed on the gum and sent strategic goods to the Nazis in trains - well, probably, so that * the rest * would be easier to fight the Nazis
      Quote: apro
      CGA lost during the war territories comparable to the USSR?

      and what does it matter?
      Let me remind you that when all of Europe was at war with Hitler, the USSR sat on the sidelines, and climbed in only after the attack on the USSR. In general, the United States could calmly observe whoever with popcorn (like the USSR before 1941), but nevertheless, even given the fact that not a single foot of the Nazis touched the land, the United States entered the war.
      Quote: apro
      The Soviets fought in the Great Patriotic War, and the rest in the WWII

      everyone calls what he wants The October coup, someone calls the GREAT October socialist revolution - out of 4 words, the truth is only in the first - and even then it partially took place in November (according to the new style).

      Quote: apro
      which was unleashed with specific goals. to share the world.

      everything is correct WWII was unleashed by Hitler and Stalin (the partition of Poland) in 1939, and then when Hitler deceived Stalin with spheres of influence, it immediately turned into the defense of the Motherland.
      learn the story.
    4. apro
      apro April 21 2021 08: 07
      +1
      Quote: atalef
      during these years, Molotov and Robentrop even kissed the gums

      As before 1938 in Munich Chamberoen with Hitler.
      Quote: atalef
      (section of Poland)

      Poland occupied the territory of the USSR and the USSR returned its own. Or are you today against the territorial integrity of Ukraine and Belarus and Lithuania?
      Quote: atalef
      learn the story.

      Atalef. Don't make up your story.
    5. Essex62
      Essex62 April 21 2021 08: 53
      +1
      They will invent, they will broadcast it to the EG generation. The goal is clear and understandable to erase the memory, to replace the false one. Deprive of identity. In geyrops and other estates of the Freemasons, this process has already been completed. Dzhapovskie kids, for example, in full confidence that the USSR bombed them with special products.
    6. atalef
      atalef April 21 2021 14: 43
      +1
      Quote: apro
      As before 1938 in Munich Chamberoen with Hitler.

      Does this whitewash Stalin? all the more for that matter, Chamberlain kissed before the start of WWII, Stalin was already in the
      Quote: apro
      Poland occupied the territory of the USSR and the USSR returned its own. Or are you today against the territorial integrity of Ukraine and Belarus and Lithuania?

      She occupied me, she received them through the Brest Peace Treaty - an agreement that was signed and ratified by both parties, to say that Poland occupied them, all the same to say that Russia is competing with Keniksberg \ Kaliningrad
      Quote: apro

      Atalef. Don't make up your story

      You should teach her
    7. apro
      apro April 21 2021 15: 11
      0
      Quote: atalef
      Does this whitewash Stalin?

      And he does not need to be justified. He acted according to the situation if the English with the French act in an incomprehensible way. They destroy the Versailles system that they created. And they strengthen the Germans. The question of “against whom?” For the IVS of Stalin, the security of the USSR is most important.
      Quote: atalef
      Chamberlain kissed before WWII

      And what does it whitewash him ???
      Quote: atalef
      she got them on the Brest Peace -

      Atalef. Don't scare me. Stop making up the story. Or do you think so seriously?
      Quote: atalef
      You should teach her

      Constantly teaching me.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA April 20 2021 18: 01
    +8
    Quote: Professor
    The Americans fought for their homeland.

    Still would. FDR worked perfectly - doing everything possible to ensure that the United States appears as a victim, and the American people inflamed with sacred anger.
    True, the Yankees wanted a blow to the Philippines, but received an unplanned Pearl Harbor ... but it turned out well. ©
    Quote: Professor
    Money allowances were paid in the Red Army as well.

    As well as additional payments for damaged and repaired equipment.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U April 20 2021 08: 56
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    16 million young Americans went to the front (11% of the total population)
    Oh, the famous Professor in his own style, lied "a little", and as soon as it was pointed out to him, he immediately flees from the topic, like look at yourself.
    Quote: Professor
    The same can be asked about the soldiers of the Red Army. Did everyone take part in real hostilities?
  • alekszeit
    alekszeit 23 July 2021 13: 24
    0
    After the Great Depression of the 30s, when it came to real hunger, Americans jumped for joy. This is when you are full and in abundance, you can demand an 8 hour working day and a minimum wage.
  • Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo April 20 2021 09: 04
    +3
    Quote: Professor
    Well, what kind of hardships are you? 16 million young Americans went to the front (11% of the total population) and women stood at the mill, plowed and sowed. Is this a burden compared to the distribution of nylon stockings? Everyone knows that the hardships were in only one country.

    To me, too, hardships.
    Yes, 10 years before the war, they were glad of any wasteful work, if only they could not stretch their legs.
    And then suddenly a labor force was needed + millions of men were withdrawn from the labor market, which raised the prices for this very labor force.
    Yesterday you huddled on the street and stood in line for a plate of charity soup, and today you work without overexerting yourself, 8 hours in a warm workshop equipped with the latest technology, eat hearty meals 3 times a day, and after work you burn money in bars and movies.
    I, too, would not refuse such "labor feats".
    We must not forget that it was the war, not Roosevelt's New Deal, that pulled the United States out of the Great Depression and ensured post-war prosperity.
    Therefore, every American - not only politicians, but also those "simple hard workers" - bore the moral responsibility for the horrors happening in Europe. We can say that they were fattening on the ashes of the burned Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian villages and cities.
  • Doccor18
    Doccor18 April 20 2021 06: 56
    +5
    Thanks for the article, the topic is "unbroken".
    While I was reading, this thought was spinning all the time
    Such perfectionism and such a luxury could only be afforded by Americans, far from the hardships of wartime.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 20 2021 07: 21
    +2
    Very interesting article. I didn’t know anything about it before. Thanks to the Author.
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 20 2021 07: 39
    +9
    Such perfectionism and such a luxury could only be afforded by Americans, far from the hardships of wartime.
    It is not the fault of the American metallurgists that the hardships of war did not have such an impact on them as on the Soviet ones.
    The question is different. The war ended in 1945, but the Soviet metallurgy, in comparison with the German, American, Japanese, and remained military with all the corresponding hardships.
    1. apro
      apro April 20 2021 07: 49
      -1
      Quote: Undecim
      and remained military with all the corresponding hardships

      For what reason?
      1. Undecim
        Undecim April 20 2021 08: 14
        +8
        The question is rhetorical. For what reason were "Soviet microcircuits the largest in the world"?
        Why did you buy AvtoVAZ from Italians?
        1. apro
          apro April 20 2021 08: 16
          -1
          Quote: Undecim
          The question is rhetorical.

          As I understand it. Will answer clearly you can not or do not want ???.
          Quote: Undecim
          For what reason were "Soviet microcircuits the largest in the world"?
          Why did you buy AvtoVAZ from Italians?

          But full of sarcasm ...
          1. Undecim
            Undecim April 20 2021 08: 29
            +11
            "You can."
            I do not want to waste time on useless discussion, which will give me nothing in terms of obtaining information. Lost time cannot be returned and I have no desire to spend it on the fight against urapatriotism in its various manifestations.
            In the metallurgy of the USSR, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, India, Guatemala, he worked for almost forty years. Accordingly, I had to visit metallurgical plants in Europe, Asia and Africa many times.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U April 20 2021 08: 59
              -4
              Quote: Undecim
              In the metallurgy of the USSR, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, India, Guatemala, worked for almost forty years
              But you have complaints about electronics and the automotive industry of the USSR.
              Quote: Undecim
              The war ended in 1945, but the Soviet metallurgy, in comparison with the German, American, Japanese, remained military with all the corresponding hardships.
              Did you compare it with the Indian or Chinese of the same years?
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA April 20 2021 10: 48
                +6
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Did you compare it with the Indian or Chinese of the same years?

                Do you want to say that the industry of the USSR - the state of the advanced socialist system - must be compared with the countries of the third world? wink
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U April 20 2021 11: 00
                  +1
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Do you want to say that the industry of the USSR - the state of the advanced socialist system - must be compared with the countries of the third world?

                  Are you saying that starting conditions and military losses are meaningless nonsense? Then, of course, then the USA and the USSR grew up in greenhouses.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA April 20 2021 11: 14
                    +4
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Are you saying that starting conditions and military losses are meaningless nonsense? Then, of course, then the USA and the USSR grew up in greenhouses.

                    Actually, we are talking about metallurgy - a branch of industry of group A. Which was the main one in the USSR, as it worked for the defense industry.
                    Do you want to say that the defense industry of the USSR 40 years after the war still needs to be compared with the countries of the third world? belay
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U April 20 2021 11: 22
                      +1
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Do you want to say that the defense industry of the USSR 40 years after the war still needs to be compared with the countries of the third world?
                      Those. do not care about military losses all the same? If so, it seems pointless to you to write about the need to create a nuclear missile shield, the radio-electronic industry practically from scratch, restore almost everything on the temporarily occupied Soviet land from scratch.
                      1. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA April 20 2021 15: 39
                        +2
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Those. do not care about military losses all the same?

                        I understand that there was no war in Yugoslavia?
                        Quote: Undecim
                        In the metallurgy of the USSR, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, India, Guatemala, worked for almost forty years.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        If so, it seems pointless to you to write about the need to create a nuclear missile shield, the radio-electronic industry practically from scratch, restore almost everything on the temporarily occupied Soviet land from scratch.

                        Once again and slowly: everything that you described is based on the metallurgical industry as well. Without its maintenance at the level of "world standards", one should not hope for the normal work of those who follow along the chain. In the best case, they will get expensive unique samples obtained as a result of an unprecedented labor feat, which will be almost impossible to repeat in a series.
                      2. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 20 2021 15: 47
                        -1
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Once again and slowly: at the heart of everything you have described lies, among other things, in the metallurgical industry. Without its maintenance at the level of "world standards" one should not hope for the normal work of those who follow the chain.
                        And everything I described is fiction? Just based on Undecim's obese commentary? Slowly turn on logical thinking: if the Soviet industry built massive metal-intensive high-class weapons and not only weapons, then metallurgy was at a fairly high level. And what Undecim saw does not mean that he saw everything in the USSR, or that he brings everything to our attention.
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        I understand that there was no war in Yugoslavia?
                        There was no industry in Yugoslavia before the war. The factories were built for them from scratch and according to the standards that were already quite modern at that time. So the comparison is incorrect.
          2. apro
            apro April 20 2021 12: 06
            0
            Quote: Undecim
            I don't want to waste

            I heard you. But I will notice. If there is no answer, then there is no need to invent too much. It is easier to be. They said that I will not answer and that's it. There are no more questions.
            I myself work with metal sometimes. The welder noticed. Sometimes changing pipes made and installed in 70 ... 80 years. They look better than those that were installed 5 ... 7 years ago. Less corrosion or not at all. The thickness of the pipe was greater. And cook a little differently. also on heat-resistant pipes. they burn faster after 5 seasons. and in some cases, even in the first season, it was necessary to jam. in comparison with Soviet iron, today it is worse.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart April 20 2021 11: 59
    +2
    The planned economy of the USSR operated with blind "quantitative indicators" - the issue of improving the quality in this scheme often did not rise beyond healthy speeches. So it is not surprising that many industries in our country have undergone little modernization. Such modernization would require a “quality” parameter to be introduced in many areas related to modernization - and then, of course, many heads would fly and many warm butts would be forced to leave their places.
  • ANB
    ANB April 20 2021 23: 47
    +2
    ... but the Soviet metallurgy, in comparison with the German, American, Japanese, and remained military with all the corresponding hardships

    Stary Oskol, OEMK. Look at technology. Built in Soviet times. And now I'm afloat.
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 20 2021 08: 06
    +8
    So, it was necessary to adapt production for the main open-hearth furnaces for 120-180 tons, excluding the process of diffusion deoxidation
    Smelting of steel in a sour open-hearth furnace takes place in two stages. First, the so-called semi-finished product is smelted in the main furnace. This is done in order to remove sulfur and phosphorus, since desulfurization and dephosphorization cannot be carried out in an acidic furnace. The main slag will "eat" the acidic lining.
    Then the semi-product is poured into an acidic furnace, in which the finished marketable product - alloy steel - is smelted.
    In the same Magnitogorsk, at the beginning, they melted. But the two-step process takes twice as long. In the USSR, there was simply not enough production capacity in order to ensure the production of the required amount of armor steel using this technology.
    Likewise, diffusion deoxidation. It takes much longer than the besieging one.
    The question was - either quality or quantity. We chose the latter.
    But the loss of quality at that time, with the abandonment of the two-stage process and diffusion deoxidation, could not be compensated for by any technological methods.
    1. old dilettante
      old dilettante 4 May 2021 20: 16
      0
      ". The question stood like this - either quality or quantity. We chose the latter.
      But the loss of quality at that time, with the abandonment of the two-stage process and diffusion deoxidation, could not be compensated for by any technological methods .. "
      What, in this case, do you mean by the term "quality"? Please clarify.
      If the chemical composition, then the chemical composition of the armored steels, during the Second World War, changed not because the technology for obtaining the "product" changed, but because the employees of the Armored Institute (TsNII-48) and "Broneburo" at MMK were tasked with creation of new steel grades, etc. economically alloyed, with a reduced content of alloying elements, and new grades of steels for casting turrets and parts for tanks, and new grades of steels for armor of heavy tanks (KV and IS).
      And the quantity is all right. Quantity and time - became the main parameters in the production of tanks. “... Smelting of armored steels in the main open-hearth furnaces has been mastered instead of smelting by the duplex process, which made it possible to increase the resources of armored steel by 2,5 thousand tons in 350 years of war,” wrote the Chairman of the State Planning Committee of the USSR N. A. Voznesensky in his the book "The military economy of the USSR during the Patriotic War." Not only a change in technology, but also the construction of new open-hearth furnaces, according to the Order of the NKTP of the USSR No. 348s, dated 17.04.42. ". 1. Establish a plan for the construction of 1942 open-hearth furnaces for 15, with a capacity of 530 thousand tons of steel per year and to ensure the commissioning of 12 furnaces with a total capacity of 440 thousand tons of steel per year, including 5 furnaces in the second quarter, with a total capacity of 180 thousand tons of steel per year ... ".
      If quality is the operational characteristics (indicators) of armored products, then yes, in comparison with the "pre-war" ones, they have deteriorated. But - these are rather problems of compliance with technical discipline and technical processes than the chemical composition and technology of steel melting.
      They, the characteristics, were checked in accordance with the technical specifications for the acceptance of tank armor, incl. by checking for fracture and checking the armor resistance of metal by shelling cards of sheet armor (plates) to determine compliance with the ultimate back strength (PTP) and the limit of through penetration (PSP) of plates for each heat specified in the TU.
      The Germans, by the way, had problems with the chemical composition and armor resistance of their Pzf-V and Pzf-VI metal, especially in the second half of WWII. And, indeed, the Krupp armor of heavy tanks was inferior to the armor of Soviet ISs in terms of viscosity.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 4 May 2021 21: 23
        +1
        If quality is performance (indicators)
        They are the ones. It's not about technical discipline. The matter is in the TMP.
        1. old dilettante
          old dilettante 5 May 2021 07: 39
          0
          ".. But the loss of quality at that time, with the abandonment of the two-stage process and diffusion deoxidation, could not be compensated for by any technological methods ..".
          The theory of metal processes rules - who can argue, but steel grade "8C" is only the initial material of the tower and the hull. Next comes rolling, heat treatment and welding / assembly. And at the last stage, a well-welded and rolled "eight" is still "crap" with its increased cracking. Therefore, we compensated. And technically. and technologically.
          Already in 1940, a special brigade of NII-48, at plant No. 183, changed the technical maps of the processes of welding armored parts of tank hulls and introduced the use of austenitic electrodes. And this process of "compensation" went on throughout the war. I have already written about the development of new steel grades that supplement / replace "8C".
          The difference between the situations in the production of armored steels in the USA and the USSR, first of all, is that the Americans had no incentive to change anything, since R&D costs and the final cost of the "product" are growing. Are there steel / steel and parts manufacturing process? There is. We reduce the cost by increasing productivity and reducing the man-hours of highly qualified specialists spent on every detail. Those. We "lick" the technological components. The business is understandable, familiar, well-planned and not rushed.
          In the USSR, after June 22.06, 1941, it was about the country's survival. Therefore, ALL work is carried out in the "scalded cat" mode. Compensating for the advantages of the German army by the number of soldiers, tanks, and the density of fire are the simplest solutions. Ways and methods - any. The degree of risk in decision-making is maximum if, at least theoretically, it is possible to increase the output of military products quantitatively. How did our ancestors manage to win, how did they have enough intelligence, health and inner strength to WORK in such conditions? The more I learn the details and facts about wartime, the more often I ask myself this question. And the more I respect my grandmothers and grandfathers, the father-in-law who extended both the war and the post-war period.
  • dgonni
    dgonni April 20 2021 08: 42
    +6
    This is not perfectionism or luxury! This is elemental adherence to technology!
    Yes, it's expensive, but as a result, the cost of high-quality armor is cheaper than dancing with a tambourine and all sorts of perversions!
    Business will not spend too much.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 20 2021 11: 01
      +8
      Quote: dgonni
      Business will not spend too much.

      Maybe - but only if it costs even more to fix the situation. smile
      In "Gangut" were the memories of a member of our naval commission in the United States during the war. They also described the high-speed construction of the TR "Liberty" and all sorts of minor episodes associated with it. For example, sheets longer than the ordered ones came to the shipyard from one of the factories. The shipyard provided its workers to cut the sheets to size, as it was faster and cheaper to change the sheet production technology at the supplier (with the inevitable interruption in supplies and disruption of the delivery date).
    2. Usher
      Usher April 21 2021 02: 49
      -3
      Quote: dgonni
      This is not perfectionism or luxury! This is elemental adherence to technology!
      Yes, it's expensive, but as a result, the cost of high-quality armor is cheaper than dancing with a tambourine and all sorts of perversions!
      Business will not spend too much.

      Naive, just the same business will not spend too much. Contradict yourself.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 21 2021 10: 38
        +2
        Quote: Usher
        Naive, just the same business will not spend too much. Contradict yourself.

        There is no contradiction. It's cheaper to do it using technology than to save a couple of cents - and get a marriage at one of the stages of the process. The cost of producing a bad sheet sent for remelting is in any case greater than the cost of cleaning it.
        And it's also good if this marriage is discovered before leaving the factory gates ... but if in the army?
        1. Usher
          Usher April 22 2021 01: 14
          -1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Quote: Usher
          Naive, just the same business will not spend too much. Contradict yourself.

          There is no contradiction. It's cheaper to do it using technology than to save a couple of cents - and get a marriage at one of the stages of the process. The cost of producing a bad sheet sent for remelting is in any case greater than the cost of cleaning it.
          And it's also good if this marriage is discovered before leaving the factory gates ... but if in the army?

          For good, yes. But who says that intelligent people rule? I worked in different enterprises, a stupid person in a moron. I am currently working with projects, an incredible number of errors, at all levels. And half of the office is sitting and working on mistakes, not their own work. I don't think the US is very different. Moreover, it is now digital technologies and can be corrected relatively quickly. And then? And by itself the business and the market will not solve anything, it all depends on the acceptance. If acceptance closes its eyes, the business will happily betray the marriage.
  • Engineer
    Engineer April 20 2021 09: 02
    0
    The article reveals the secret of the high cost of American technology in the years of WWII. Industrialists did not save on equipment and literally stuffed enterprises with the latest technology, rightly expecting an exponential growth of government orders. The latest technology, through depreciation, should make a huge contribution to the purchase price by the government. If we add the fact that salaries in the United States were twice as high as in Britain, then we get a wild high cost of technology for the United States. All this abundance was covered by the growth of the national debt. The corruption component is still waiting to be investigated, as well as the fact why, in many cases, it seems that economies of scale did not occur.
    1. Liam
      Liam April 20 2021 18: 21
      +1
      Quote: Engineer
      The article reveals the secret of the high cost of American technology during WWII.

      Compared to what or with whom?
      Quote: Engineer
      Industrialists did not save on equipment and

      And this is also why they produced high-quality products that allowed, first of all, to "save" soldiers' lives. And they didn’t let out a deliberate "dnshevy" defect on the basis of .. all the same, in the second attack (on the second flight) it will burn. Forgetting that it will burn with the crew, as it were. The quality of equipment and the life expectancy of the crew have a very important connection.
      Will you count who saved how much Sodat lives on this and convert it into dollars / rubles?

      Quote: Engineer
      The corruption component still awaits its research

      Yes, for 80 years they skillfully hide their tracks ...
      Quote: Engineer
      like

      Once again .. what are you comparing with? What tanks, planes, etc. were produced before the war in military equipment?
      1. Engineer
        Engineer April 20 2021 18: 33
        +2
        Compared to what or with whom?

        Compared to the British. There is no one else to compare with
        Yes, for 80 years they skillfully hide their tracks ...

        I did not write that it was significant. I do not presume to estimate its share. Don't read me between the lines.
        there is simply such an opinion that Comrade Roosevelt is an enemy of the people. As a matter of fact, I do not know.
        Once again .. what are you comparing with? What tanks, planes, etc. were produced before the war in military equipment?

        Again. I compare with the British. I laid out the analysis on the "liberty" in due time.

        For some reason, you perceive my post as an implication of criticism of the American military-industrial complex. While the real message was something completely different - the high cost of amer's technology had objective reasons. But the efficiency of the economy as a whole is a completely different question. In a war, you cannot win by saving money, therefore it is effective because it has provided everything you need for the front and beyond that.
        ... If you try to apply economic estimates of cost-effectiveness, then it is often ineffective.

        My games are like that, someone spikes into the tundra, someone retroactively tries on common sense in wartime. My right)
        1. Liam
          Liam April 20 2021 20: 05
          0
          Quote: Engineer

          Compared to British

          Let's try with a simple example, so that not everyone is about their own.
          Americans release, say, Sherman. It costs, for example, 1000 USD.
          The British don't let Sherman out. They let Matilda out, for example, he costs £ 800.
          Explain that I would understand how you calculate that the American is too expensive. Different tanks, different configurations, different performance characteristics, etc., etc.
          You can only compare absolutely identical products if they were produced in two different countries, but with absolutely the same tax systems, for example, with the same salaries, cost of resources, etc., etc.
          Everything else is from the evil one. Games in PPS. When darned homespun trousers are equated with Armani pants because both are pants)
          Quote: Engineer
          there is an opinion that comrade Roosevelt

          I even know who is a fan of this Idea. A colleague of the VD is still outrageous in some topics with the refinement of theses to the point of absurdity)
          1. Engineer
            Engineer April 20 2021 20: 22
            +2
            let's say Sherman.

            I do not rummage in armored vehicles.

            Let's try with a simple example

            There are oddities that I cannot fully explain.
            Price increase 4-5 times when moving from Yorktown to Essex. Despite the fact that Essex is large-scale and York is small-scale. The difference in equipment and displacement does not fully explain the phenomenon.

            When comparing Liberty and the British analogue according to Brown, the Briton is not only cheaper, but also has significantly lower labor costs. if the difference in price can still be explained, then the difference in labor costs is completely incomprehensible, because the liberty is the record holder in mass production and it is labor costs that should fall when scaling

            I can't give an introduction to airplanes - there is no time.

            I even know who the fan is

            No further. Don't be dashing.
            1. Liam
              Liam April 20 2021 21: 27
              +3
              Quote: Engineer
              I do not rummage in armored vehicles

              It makes no difference. Even in planes, ships or in parrots. These are incomparable things, especially in wartime. Your example with aircraft carriers. What do you think. Due to what in wartime an aircraft carrier was built conditionally 6 months, while in peacetime, it took 3 The answer is very simple - due to the huge investments of manufacturers, a multiple increase in spending at all stages, from design to launching. Huge expenses for additional resources, equipment, personnel, contractors, subcontractors, overtime, for urgency, etc. does not happen. All you need is a lot and very quickly. And if you pay for these things, and do not put half-starved children for a machine for a bowl of gruel, all this will be much more expensive than in peacetime.
              What do you think happened to the prices of raw materials (including imported ones) during the war - from oil, iron, copper to rare earth metals a la molybdenum and other tungsten, without which nothing is produced and which everyone is looking for in the daytime with fire for any money. Naturally, they skyrocketed.
              And how much did a ton of scarce aluminum purchased abroad cost an American company, with transportation prices that also skyrocketed because Doenitz does not sleep ... and how much did the same ton of the same metal cost an English company that received it for free under Lend Lease. how this influenced the final price of the American and British aircraft. And such situations can be found in large quantities in any product
          2. Korax71
            Korax71 April 20 2021 22: 13
            +1
            well, he's right about something hi If we consider the actions of the FDR from the position of the American man in the street, then indeed he did not always put the interests of America at the forefront. Can you call him an enemy of the people for this - I'm not sure request but, of course, I managed to play a little dirty trick.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart April 20 2021 11: 53
    0
    I would like to read in a popular science form how the quality of our tank armor "in fact" differed from that of the western one. And of course it would be interesting to know how the Germans dealt with it at that time.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer April 20 2021 16: 57
      +3
      https://vdocuments.mx/wwii-ballistics-armor-and-gunnery.html

      The only drawback is only the Brinell hardness of the objective tests. Impact strength was not determined as I understand it at all.
    2. Usher
      Usher April 21 2021 02: 46
      -1
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      I would like to read in a popular science form how the quality of our tank armor "in fact" differed from that of the western one. And of course it would be interesting to know how the Germans dealt with it at that time.

      the Germans had worse armor at the beginning and even more so at the end. Because of this, rolled armor had to be used to mechanically harden. Since there were few additives.
  • Nitarius
    Nitarius April 20 2021 12: 29
    -3
    )) what could they teach ...? if once they themselves studied)?
    1. Korax71
      Korax71 April 20 2021 16: 17
      +2
      who's got it? probably Comrade A. Kahn took over the school of industrial architecture in the USSR?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Usher
    Usher April 21 2021 02: 45
    +3
    When will "Professor" be banned? Already tired of provoking and offtopic, trolls and breeds shit. When his position of a pro-Western liberal is already clear, who turns a blind eye to many things and pursues a policy of double standards. He recalls the contribution of Indians or New Zealanders to the Second World War and compares it with the losses of the USSR, which I consider blasphemy and insult. He considers life in the USA during the war "hardships" and grins and grimaces about the situation in Leningrad.
  • Aleksandr1971
    Aleksandr1971 April 21 2021 09: 35
    +1
    Good, interesting article.

    I will assume that our engineers at the Ford factories simply went out of shape, having seen the grandiose scale, organization and culture of production.
    1. DesToeR
      DesToeR April 21 2021 15: 05
      +2
      Quote: Aleksandr1971
      I will assume that our engineers at the Ford factories simply went out of shape, having seen the grandiose scale, organization and culture of production.

      And why not "take off"? The conventional 45-year-old Soviet engineer has already seen two revolutions, two world wars and one Civil War on his territory by this "spectacle". And if an American engineer ever heard of something like that, it was only from his great-grandfather. By 1945, the United States had not known similar shocks for 80 years, i.e. four generations of Americans grew up in "greenhouse" conditions compared to Russia.
  • old dilettante
    old dilettante 4 May 2021 20: 40
    0
    Normal article. Technical espionage and the study of the industrial achievements of the "potential enemy" is a normal practice in the states of Europe, the USA and Japan. The joint struggle against Nazism / Japanese militarism did not negate the fact that ".. The West is the West, the East is the East, and they will not leave their places ..". Actually, W. Churchill was the first to speak about the need for an "Iron Curtain", not J.S. Stalin.