Military Review

The differences between the promising Russian helicopter carriers of the project 23900 and the large landing craft of the project 11711 are named

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The differences between the promising Russian helicopter carriers of the project 23900 and the large landing craft of the project 11711 are named

Prospective Russian helicopter carriers of Project 23900 will be able to take on board up to 1 marines, while Project 11711 Large Landing Ships (BDK) can accommodate no more than 300 Marines.


As the source explained RIA News in the shipbuilding industry, two helicopter carriers under construction in Kerch significantly exceed the capacity of the project 11711 large landing craft, which are being built at the Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad.

Each ship provides for a landing of no more than a thousand marines, respectively, there will be a dock chamber and up to four landing boats will be placed in it.

- leads news source word agency.

At the same time, he noted that the purchase of a larger number of helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy "is not even a question" yet, at the same time the series of BDK project 11711 can be continued.

Earlier it was reported that the Russian analogue of the French "Mistrals" can carry on board up to 16 anti-submarine and attack helicopters Ka-27 and Ka-52. The option of placing 4 unmanned aerial vehicles on promising helicopter carriers is also being considered.

It should be reminded that the construction of two Project 23900 helicopter carriers is underway at the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch, and the formation of ship hulls has begun. The declared terms of transfer to the Navy are 2026 and 2027.
120 comments
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  1. mojohed2012
    mojohed2012 12 March 2021 07: 13
    -2
    Sending UDC data to the Kuriles and Sakhalin region would demonstrate to Japan the futility of the threat of a blockade of the straits.
    And yet the main question is: what will each of these UDC be armed with? Will it be equipped with air defense and landing support?
    The survivability of these ships and the ability to ensure that attacks against them are repelled during the landing or operations in their area of ​​responsibility are very important.
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 12 March 2021 07: 20
      +11
      Quote: mojohed2012
      The survivability of these ships and the ability to ensure that attacks against them are repelled during the landing or operations in their area of ​​responsibility are very important.

      Elephants don't fight alone. This group will already be of the aircraft carrier type.
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 12 March 2021 07: 35
        -33%
        The differences between the promising Russian helicopter carriers of the project 23900 and the large landing craft of the project 11711 are named

        Yes, there are no differences. What is one, what is the second - projects, paper sketches. Topics from the series: "If I had ..."
        Quote: NDR-791
        Elephants don't fight alone.

        Moreover, there are elephants for preschool children (rag) ...
        This is the "real" analyst of the actual state of affairs. fellow
        The gun has not been bought yet, the cartridges have not been prepared yet, and the cutters are already "cutting" the skin ...
        Here would be Admiral Timokhin and tell how to fight with weapons that do not exist.
        1. loki565
          loki565 12 March 2021 09: 43
          -5
          Yes, there are no differences. What is one, what is the second - projects, paper sketches. Topics from the series: "If I had ..."

          Most likely, a springboard will be installed for promising UAVs, plus the air defense will be strengthened.
      2. novel66
        novel66 12 March 2021 07: 48
        +2
        This group will already be of the aircraft carrier type.

        from what will we form?
        1. Runway
          Runway 12 March 2021 07: 53
          -12%
          To accompany the whole group of the MP brigade.
        2. NDR-791
          NDR-791 12 March 2021 07: 54
          -6
          Quote: novel xnumx
          from what will we form?

          I blinded him out of what was ... If there is nothing out of both, it is better not to start building both BDK and VN - these are just easy goals. I hope they know what they are doing.
          1. hydrox
            hydrox 12 March 2021 08: 37
            -6
            Here another question is much more interesting: there is at least one REAL sailor in the entire Main Command of the Navy who can clearly explain to the people of Russia (for whose money this construction is being started) all the advantages of these tubs in comparison with the need to build destroyers and cruisers, that For operations, the marines will carry out in the Arctic and in the Far East, and why iron tubs will be easier, more necessary for the civilian people in terms of developing territories, and not tubs will be cheaper, but small airfields that filled the entire USSR from edge to edge.
            But someone from the naval authorities must certainly show off against the background of a floating 9-storey building, unsuitable for human life, for battle and for a campaign.
            1. Andrei Nikolaevich
              Andrei Nikolaevich 12 March 2021 08: 59
              +6
              As you have categorically expressed. I am not a specialist and did not graduate from the General Staff Academy, but I think that the fleet as a personal car should be practical and rational. You cannot buy a Rolls-Royce if the salary allows, Zaporozhets "and it is more convenient to have potatoes from the dacha on" Constipation ".
              1. hydrox
                hydrox 12 March 2021 16: 50
                +1
                Somehow polished together forget that you have to live within your means, and this is not only a mountain of weapons, but also the social function of the state - it will not be fulfilled - and the state will end in this world and go into other hands.
            2. hydrox
              hydrox 12 March 2021 09: 02
              -19%
              The liber sofas were perfectly and harmoniously eliminated!
            3. Sergey Kulikov_3
              Sergey Kulikov_3 12 March 2021 14: 00
              +4
              How do you imagine the delivery of equipment and l / s to the Kuril Islands by destroyers and cruisers !? Can you order to transport by planes or to buy ferries? And who told you that the landing is a purely military operation? The delivery of the construction battalion to the islands for the construction of garrisons, and then the delivery of the garrisons themselves, is also an amphibious operation.
              1. ramzay21
                ramzay21 13 March 2021 04: 36
                +2
                UDC is designed for landing operations from the sea. Much cheaper supply vessels exist for the delivery of machinery and builders. The fact that they were sold out and then they began to use the BDK for this purpose is not at all the norm. By the way, the provision of amphibious operations, including the supply of equipment, fuel, ammunition and reinforcements, also lies with the supply ships.
                1. Sergey Kulikov_3
                  Sergey Kulikov_3 14 March 2021 09: 13
                  -1
                  Not everywhere there are berths for supply vessels, and how will you deliver the l / s to the unequipped shore, by boats?
        3. hydrox
          hydrox 12 March 2021 09: 09
          -9
          Quote: novel xnumx
          from what will we form?

          Why think ?!
          Each Marine has a drone - and there is no more terrible ship on all oceans laughing
        4. Romario_Argo
          Romario_Argo 12 March 2021 10: 41
          +2
          from what will we form?

          apparently so far only turntables, but on the topic of the new VTOL aircraft, there’s a total silence
    2. Revolver
      Revolver 12 March 2021 08: 21
      +7
      Quote: mojohed2012
      the main question: what will each of these UDC be armed with? Will it be equipped with air defense and landing support?
      The survivability of these ships and the ability to ensure that attacks against them are repelled during the landing or operations in their area of ​​responsibility are very important.

      To protect such UDCs, EMs are needed, or at least frigates, and not a couple, but at least heels. To each. UDC transports and lands troops, if possible, supports it with attack helicopters, but it does not solve the problems of air defense and anti-aircraft defense. There are several available ZRAK - this is what is called the most extreme and for the bird-jackdaw in the "air defense" column, so that the project will be accepted for construction. They will not be able to fight off a single attack aircraft, but if there are several, at least one will slam a four-string exploding into the side or deck.
      1. hydrox
        hydrox 12 March 2021 08: 44
        -16%
        Sorry, this is not the 18-19th century to land troops and conquer colonies.
        Do you want to take Marines to Nigeria, Paumoto, or Alaska?
        Do we need it? And if not, where is it? To the North Pole, so that these unarmed UDCs can be drowned along with a dozen escorting frigates? Or will the air defense be portrayed as Marines riding machine-gun turrets?
        Beauty! laughing
        1. d4rkmesa
          d4rkmesa 12 March 2021 08: 56
          +12
          Kaliningrad, Sakhalin, Kuriles, Kamchatka - won't they fit? Oh yes, "there will be no war."
          1. Captain45
            Captain45 12 March 2021 10: 24
            +3
            Quote: d4rkmesa
            Kaliningrad, Sakhalin, Kuriles, Kamchatka - won't they fit? Oh yes, "there will be no war."

            Those. You propose to first hand over Kaliningrad, the Kuril Islands, etc. to the enemy without defense, and then propose to take them back with a landing party from the UDC? An interesting strategy is to hand over, then to win back.
            1. d4rkmesa
              d4rkmesa 12 March 2021 11: 33
              +4
              You are doing demagoguery, in short. In bad times, Russia has always surrendered its enclaves, including internal ones. For different reasons.
              How are you going not to surrender the Kurils without nuclear weapons? Deliver several divisions there by air? Do we have the appropriate BTA, tailored for logistics? The enemy, of course, will notify you of his plans. UDC is the best way to send a thousand people with weapons by sea from point A to point B. Or, for example, to pick up several thousand wounded. There are many application options, you should not get stuck in tactics, as in Soviet documentaries, where gallant marines storm the coast by fire, and MLRS works from the landing ship.
            2. hydrox
              hydrox 12 March 2021 12: 10
              -5
              He needs to say at least something to please his older comrade.
              Someone is working out the training manual, someone is pushing for the plus sign, and all together pour water on the American mill, not realizing that we have not yet emerged from the crisis, and under the sanctions we will become even poorer, which the Yankees so passionately desire ...
              1. d4rkmesa
                d4rkmesa 13 March 2021 13: 21
                -1
                And what is your goal, bawking? Why are these long sentences and a painful desire to prove right? Maybe someone better find a job? As for the plus signs, it's funny, people with a "balance" of 300+ sput. "plus sign", roughly speaking, complains that he was taught cons.
            3. Grits
              Grits 12 March 2021 12: 54
              +3
              Quote: Captain45
              Those. You propose to first hand over Kaliningrad, the Kuril Islands, etc. to the enemy without defense, and then propose to take them back with a landing party from the UDC? An interesting strategy is to hand over, then to win back.

              Everything is possible. After all, Japan, having such a UDC (and more than one) in service, can very easily capture the Kuril Islands, for example. And then you need to take them back ...
              1. hydrox
                hydrox 13 March 2021 09: 44
                0
                Quote: Gritsa
                After all, Japan, having such a UDC (and more than one) in service, can very easily capture the Kuril Islands, for example.

                Japan has every chance of losing ALL of its UDCs when trying to take the Kuril Islands - this is such an easy target.
                1. Grits
                  Grits 13 March 2021 14: 30
                  +1
                  Quote: hydrox
                  Japan has every chance of losing ALL of its UDCs when trying to take the Kuril Islands - this is such an easy target.

                  There is also such a possibility.
          2. CastroRuiz
            CastroRuiz 12 March 2021 20: 37
            +1
            Siria, Venezuela.
        2. Revolver
          Revolver 12 March 2021 10: 00
          +8
          Quote: hydrox
          Do you want to take Marines to Nigeria, Paumoto, or Alaska?
          Do we need it? And if not, where should it be?

          Well, for example, if in 2008 the Black Sea Fleet had a UDC, then it would be quite reasonable to land troops in, say, Poti. Exclusively within the framework of "peace enforcement". Mishiko's appetite would have increased even more from such news, so he would not have been able to do with one tie.
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 12 March 2021 18: 58
            +1
            Quote: Nagan
            Well, for example, if in 2008 the Black Sea Fleet had a UDC

            It was after this that they decided to buy them.
            1. hydrox
              hydrox 13 March 2021 09: 49
              -1
              Well, yes, against the legless georgians with slingshots, this is a weapon, but before the modern army it is a goal. The unpantals will be too expensive for our people - and they are not even worth the loss of a corvette.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 13 March 2021 15: 55
                0
                Quote: hydrox
                Well, yes, against the legless georgians with slingshots

                Are you talking to yourself?
                1. hydrox
                  hydrox 13 March 2021 16: 20
                  -1
                  Fu-oo-oo, with whom you sometimes have to be ...
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 13 March 2021 19: 05
                    0
                    Quote: hydrox
                    with whom you sometimes have to be

                    Indeed, you read some ...
        3. nerd.su
          nerd.su 13 March 2021 08: 31
          -1
          Quote: hydrox
          Do you want to take Marines to Nigeria, Paumoto, or Alaska?
          Do we need this?

          Well, unlikely to Alaska. But in Nigeria or there in Venezuela it is necessary. It is necessary, in the most extreme case, to be able to land troops there, which can be supported at least by attack helicopters. The ship's s-300 will provide a no-fly zone while there are no aircraft carriers ...
          1. hydrox
            hydrox 13 March 2021 09: 52
            -1
            And how many miles your UDC will chase across the Atlantic Ocean until it gets a couple of torpedoes on the side of the run-down US nuclear submarine.
            1. nerd.su
              nerd.su 13 March 2021 20: 37
              0
              Quote: hydrox
              And how many miles your UDC will chase across the Atlantic Ocean until it gets a couple of torpedoes on the side of the run-down US nuclear submarine.

              The same number of Soviet and Russian missiles hit the board of American aircraft carriers and UDC.
      2. hydrox
        hydrox 12 March 2021 09: 20
        -15%
        Here you are right, so as not to ditch the newly built UDC, it will be necessary to plan the allocation of funds for the construction of security ships for this scrap metal right now. What do you propose to close in order to scrape together some money? Will you close schools or hospitals? Or maybe we can do without the High School for the sake of a photograph of a black cap against the background of a gray, but tall side? ...
      3. loki565
        loki565 12 March 2021 09: 38
        -4
        And what prevents to put an analogue of the C400 there? dimensions allow, and such a height is even a plus for installing radars, target designation can also be given by a helicopter with a radar
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 12 March 2021 09: 58
          +10
          The fact that there is no room left for the landing, the price will rise, and this will not become a UDC warship.

          Well, for a long time already all over the world came:
          - UDC maximizes volume, decks for marines, amphibious groups and landing vehicles.
          - UDC maximizes the helicopter group, this project has a separate hangar level, like Mistral, Juan Carlos or Chinese 075. An alternative is a common deck, like the Korean UDC.
          - UDC has a means of self-defense. That is, at the Goalkeeper / Phalangs level, RIM, a maximum of a couple of ESSM packages in underutilized volumes. Translating into Russian capabilities, these are AK-630 (Duet) and Pantsir in sponsons.

          All strike weapons, air defense, anti-aircraft missiles are carried by an escort, which can still be flexibly formed based on the task. For example, a peacetime mission - in one person (and the UDC is used as efficiently as possible), a mission with conditional threats (Babaham Allah will help P-15 or Exocet launch) - have a small order of 1-2 ships, missions with serious tasks are already being assembled full profile with 3-6 Destroyer frigates, PLO ships, submarines, etc. In this case, the UDC is again used as efficiently as possible.
          1. loki565
            loki565 12 March 2021 14: 08
            -3
            The fact that there is no room left for the landing, the price will rise, and this will not become a UDC warship.

            Nonsense, there is easily a place for 16 standard cells, even without prejudice to the landing. Although the Mistrals were also ordered as command posts in local operations. Taking into account the large number of helicopters, reconnaissance and target designation functions are possible (helicopters with radar and anti-submarine); compact anti-ship missiles for helicopters are also being developed.
            1. donavi49
              donavi49 12 March 2021 14: 18
              +4
              So what will personal 16 Gauges do? During the years of democratization, the Yankees launched hundreds of their calibers and not to say that the defense was falling apart there.

              If you block the air defense of the SD, then you need to install other radars, combat posts, allocate volumes and all this will take place and will raise the budget so great. For example, 20380 ordinary ones, after replacing Fourke with a new mast with radar blades, grew by 2 billion rubles. wink

              And again, without a warrant, you can't release him on a dangerous mission, and why?
              1. loki565
                loki565 12 March 2021 14: 24
                -1
                So what will personal 16 Gauges do?

                What does the caliber have to do with it? we are talking about air defense, although the cells there are standard.
                If you fence the SD air defense, then you need to put other radars, combat posts,

                There will be air defense posts anyway, you just need to install additional radars, which will be located on the outer pylons. Also, for long-range air defense, external target designation is also desirable.
                1. donavi49
                  donavi49 12 March 2021 15: 01
                  +2
                  The cells are still non-standard. Or Redoubt for air defense, or Shtil-1 (to save money on air defense) or UKSK for KR / PKR / PLUR.

                  Air defense posts there will be from shells and AK-630. And here it is necessary to fence in a separate CIC for air defense + heavy radars (yes, even the simplest Frigate-MA will significantly increase the cost of the entire ship, and if you put canvases a la Polyment, then the money will fly away strongly).
            2. Revolver
              Revolver 12 March 2021 23: 21
              0
              Quote: loki565
              there is easily a place for 16 standard cells, even without prejudice to the landing

              What the heck of a booty accordion if it has bells and a censer? For the same Kuznetsov, his dozen "Granites" are just in vain. Of the UDC strike weapons, only attack helicopters are needed, well, maybe more planes, if the deck length is enough or they are VTOL. And all the other strike weapons, air defense, anti-aircraft defense, and what else may be required, from the evil one, because this is the business of the escort. Ships of the same size as the UDC do not sail alone, and should not. And the place on them is too expensive to be occupied by non-core weapons.
    3. bayard
      bayard 12 March 2021 08: 28
      +6
      Quote: mojohed2012
      The survivability of these ships and the ability to ensure that attacks against them are repelled during the landing or operations in their area of ​​responsibility are very important.

      The escort forces will be engaged in the combat outposts of the UDC, and in fact only the near-zone air defense systems and the ZPU. He doesn't need more. These ships are designed for over-the-horizon landing on landing boats and helicopters. Attack helicopters Ka-52 will cover the landing during the landing.
    4. Servisinzhener
      Servisinzhener 12 March 2021 15: 05
      0
      Not. But the test launch of the Sarmat missile with the Avangard warhead with a landing site on Tanfilyev Island could become such a demonstration.
    5. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 12 March 2021 18: 18
      0
      Quote: mojohed2012

      Sending UDC data to the Kuriles and Sakhalin region would demonstrate to Japan the futility of the threat of a blockade of the straits.

      Can you tell us about what straits we are talking about? And how can the Japanese be scared by this floating shed?
    6. Your stranger
      Your stranger 12 March 2021 19: 07
      -4
      Have you seen the Japanese fleet?
    7. mvg
      mvg 13 March 2021 03: 18
      +2
      Sending UDC data to the Kuriles and Sakhalin region would demonstrate to Japan the futility of the threat of a blockade of the straits.

      How? Bare booty scare a cactus? Quiet horror, what nonsense they write.
  2. Thrifty
    Thrifty 12 March 2021 07: 25
    +2
    At least 4 of these are needed, and corvettes must be built at an accelerated pace to accompany them and ensure safety. And, in general, you need to build a couple of purely light aircraft carriers, non-nuclear, in the same Crimea and build.
    1. Mitroha
      Mitroha 12 March 2021 07: 31
      +6
      Without canceling the question of their (aircraft carriers) need, not all at once. Let them practice on the "cats" for now. Personnel then need to work out, there are almost no Soviet ones left
      1. hydrox
        hydrox 12 March 2021 08: 48
        -19%
        Quote: Mitroha
        Let them practice on the "cats" for now.

        Excuse me, with the funds that are planned to be spent on the construction of 2 pelvis, you can maintain the entire impoverished social sector of Russia for 3 years, along with health and education ...
        1. Mitroha
          Mitroha 12 March 2021 08: 51
          +14
          I do not forgive hi .
          And with the funds that are spent on all the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, the whole country can go to live in the Maldives, having bought them out. Do you want to go? Well, her this army together with the navy?
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          2. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 12 March 2021 10: 29
            0
            Quote: Mitroha
            Do you want to go?

            If everyone leaves, who will work? Only those with a salary will go here, and the rest will be plunged into shit every day and said that this is your homeland and you need to love it.
            In our opinion, if the country needs funds, then it is necessary either for everyone to tighten their belts, or it is time to tighten the ropes on the throats of those who eat and eat everything and cannot get drunk, justifying the whole orgy with "noble" excess in food.
            1. hydrox
              hydrox 13 March 2021 06: 20
              0
              We have a wonderful site: I don’t know about you, but I wrote off 2500 points per day on one article, with an overall very low activity ..
              How do you like such arithmetic - it seems that it has not done without integral calculus! laughing
          3. hydrox
            hydrox 12 March 2021 11: 01
            -4
            Those. Are you suggesting that the population of the Russian Federation leave the territory of Russia?
            So how are you different from the scoundrel Zelensky, who advises the population of Donbass exactly the same?
            1. Mitroha
              Mitroha 12 March 2021 11: 19
              +7
              Do not fantasize, if you have problems understanding what has been written, work on yourself. hi
              1. hydrox
                hydrox 12 March 2021 12: 02
                -2
                Rest assured, I am working, and I have already risen to a height unattainable for skakuasa. laughing
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. donavi49
          donavi49 12 March 2021 12: 01
          +3
          Well, how much money? Let's take, for example, the most advanced, largest and most expensive ship in Europe - where social standards are at the level.

          To create a new project (for Italy, this is the first full-fledged UDC with a large air group of planes and helicopters) - NLHD spent 2 years, steel was cut in 2017, launching in 2019, commissioning in 2022.

          The costs of the project with the design, preparation of the shipyard in Naples, the construction of the ship with delivery in 22 spent 1,1 billion euros.

          This ship is a generation higher than what is being built in Kerch. It uses a different propulsion system with 10 nodal full electric propulsion and 25 nodules on afterburners. It is larger, more functional (due to the presence of 6-12 F-35s, for example) and also carries 1000 people in full load.




          For example, the cost of the serial corvette 20380 without the UKSK (only with the X-35) and the new radar is 17,2-17,6 billion rubles in 2017. The cost of a corvette with UKSK and a new radar is 22,6 billion rubles in 2018.

          Will 3,5 corvettes replace the full-fledged UDC? wink
          1. hydrox
            hydrox 12 March 2021 16: 35
            -4
            Of course not.
            There, cuts with kickbacks will rise in a large amount.
            Remember the Vostochny Cosmodrome case ...
          2. mvg
            mvg 13 March 2021 03: 36
            +1
            Will 3,5 corvettes replace the full-fledged UDC?

            4.5 corvettes, 32 (36) Onyxes, and most importantly, will be in 4 places at the same time. UDC + air group, 1.3 - 1.4 billion euros. Plus the escort ships, the cost of which is estimated at 3.9 billion euros. Plus pilot training and 1000+ crew. This is the Cosmos for us.
            PS: Yes, and the tasks are completely different. For corvettes PLO, for UDC - the flagship of the fleet, power projection. We do not need such a ship, we have neither Harriers nor F-35B.
            In USK-14, we should also invent our own ASROC and normal towed buoys.
        4. Machito
          Machito 12 March 2021 14: 39
          0
          Quote: hydrox
          Quote: Mitroha
          Let them practice on the "cats" for now.

          Excuse me, with the funds that are planned to be spent on the construction of 2 pelvis, you can maintain the entire impoverished social sector of Russia for 3 years, along with health and education ...

          And what if we refuse to build two UDCs, this money will go to social services? Medvedev said: Fuck you, not "helicopters". There is no money, but you hold on.
          1. hydrox
            hydrox 12 March 2021 16: 39
            -4
            Come on: After all, they pushed aside Medvedev with the liber-company - they immediately began to take more saw-cutters for the shkimot. And they began to take good amounts for confiscation.
            1. Machito
              Machito 12 March 2021 16: 55
              +1
              Quote: hydrox
              Come on: After all, they pushed aside Medvedev with the liber-company - they immediately began to take more saw-cutters for the shkimot. And they began to take good amounts for confiscation.

              The President speaks on TV about the theft in Vostochny. Manual control lol What are the law enforcement agencies doing? Have they tried to work? Ah, well, yes, then there will be no time for theft and protection.
              1. hydrox
                hydrox 12 March 2021 17: 28
                +1
                What do you want?
                For 30 years, this generation of law enforcement officers has rotted on the vine, and Edro did not bring up another generation, who does not steer, (she herself in all this).
        5. Dart2027
          Dart2027 12 March 2021 18: 59
          +1
          Quote: hydrox
          the funds that are planned to be spent on the construction of 2 pelvis can contain the entire

          An old song from the 90s.
        6. Revolver
          Revolver 12 March 2021 23: 28
          +2
          Quote: hydrox
          Quote: Mitroha
          Let them practice on the "cats" for now.

          Excuse me, with the funds that are planned to be spent on the construction of 2 pelvis, you can maintain the entire impoverished social sector of Russia for 3 years, along with health and education ...

          Those who do not want to feed their own army will feed someone else's. And the fleet too.
    2. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 12 March 2021 07: 40
      -10%
      Quote: Thrifty
      And, in general, it is necessary build a pair of light pure aircraft carriers, non-nuclear, in the same Crimea and build.

      Thought contains neither self-interest nor greed. good
      As a child, I also loved beautiful toys:
      1. novel66
        novel66 12 March 2021 07: 51
        +1
        yours were cheaper
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 12 March 2021 10: 32
          -1
          Quote: novel xnumx
          yours were cheaper

          I know it was cheaper, but I want to ask this paid band of "stick insects":
          "WHAT BUT SALROWS AND PLANS CAN YOU SHOW IN REALITY?"
          For the rest, I will note that the May 2012 decrees have not yet been implemented.
          1. novel66
            novel66 12 March 2021 10: 40
            0
            the plan, correctly formulated, is already good. the keyword is "correct"
            1. Ross xnumx
              Ross xnumx 12 March 2021 14: 30
              -1
              Quote: novel xnumx
              the plan, correctly formulated, is already good.

              It's good when the plan is "fenced off" and the "joint" is packed tightly ... laughing
              ===========
              It is necessary to check the bots, otherwise not all traffic lights in the picture indicate ...
              1. novel66
                novel66 12 March 2021 14: 31
                +2
                here, about aviki, he is definitely zaboristy
          2. hydrox
            hydrox 12 March 2021 12: 24
            -1
            There is nothing to be done: Now SUCH a patriot has gone, not recognizing the budget and social obligations of the state, that at least all pennies for him will rest, clambering onto the shore of life for his average 12 sput / month, but about a demographic pit of several million he does has no idea.
          3. Machito
            Machito 12 March 2021 14: 44
            0
            Quote: ROSS 42
            Quote: novel xnumx
            yours were cheaper

            I know it was cheaper, but I want to ask this paid band of "stick insects":
            "WHAT BUT SALROWS AND PLANS CAN YOU SHOW IN REALITY?"
            For the rest, I will note that the May 2012 decrees have not yet been implemented.

            GDP for another twelve years to row on the gallery. Maybe they will fulfill the May decrees or the successor, if there is one, will be inherited.
            1. hydrox
              hydrox 12 March 2021 17: 04
              0
              Those decrees are not an inheritance, but a heavy and overwhelming burden, and they need to be carried out only by the person who will reform the country's finances and the economy of the national economy with the understanding that everything stolen from the people in the 90s must be returned to the people for began in the form of "state capitalism", and small things like sanatoriums with boarding houses and tourist centers to give back to the people, but in a different form, in the form of "people's capitalism".
              1. Machito
                Machito 12 March 2021 17: 43
                +1
                Quote: hydrox
                Those decrees are not an inheritance, but a heavy and overwhelming burden, and they need to be carried out only by the person who will reform the country's finances and the economy of the national economy with the understanding that everything stolen from the people in the 90s must be returned to the people for began in the form of "state capitalism", and small things like sanatoriums with boarding houses and tourist centers to give back to the people, but in a different form, in the form of "people's capitalism".

                Like a Chinese model? Without socialism, slaves do not want to multiply: women do not want to breed poverty. We are already dying out a million a year, taking into account the high birth rate among Muslims. If this continues at the same pace, then Russia will soon have no one to defend.
                1. hydrox
                  hydrox 12 March 2021 18: 46
                  0
                  No, not Chinese: with the paternalism of the state.
                  But you are right, any other model does not encourage the population to reproduce, Muslims should not be taken into account here - they can go to Turan too ...
                  Russia will soon have no one to defend.

                  Our polished ones do not want to understand this and will NEVER understand it (they have a different pension fund, much more common).
                2. Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg)
                  Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg) 12 March 2021 20: 37
                  0
                  > Without socialism, slaves do not want to multiply

                  Suggest when RFFMS went below the reproduction level, or google yourself?
      2. hydrox
        hydrox 12 March 2021 08: 51
        -14%
        Forgive me, but the population is without work and without money, and they have no time for toys, but for food, and for children to buy summer clothes and shoes (and there it will be time to get ready for school).
        In short, this construction is specifically an anti-national idea ... and liberda will be happy to discuss the method of financial ruin of Russia. sad
        1. Stepan S
          Stepan S 12 March 2021 09: 54
          +3
          Where is the population without money? In most industrial cities, production specialists are sought throughout the country and its environs.
          1. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 12 March 2021 10: 18
            +2
            Quote: Stepan S
            In most industrial cities they are looking for production specialists all over the country and the surrounding area.

            When specialists are paid a decent salary, they find themselves. If they are looking for and cannot be found, that either the working conditions do not correspond, or there is no housing, or the salary is low ... So far, about 190 jobs have been found in the country, where everyone is satisfied with everything. You can ask the names of these people. True, to call them "production specialists" will not turn the language - many have only very dubious theoretical knowledge, and, as a practice, only in the field of alienation of funds from this very production. Therefore, the profitability of Russian production is very problematic and is supported by guest workers (temporary workers from neighboring countries with poor knowledge of the Russian language and the specifics of that very production).
            1. hydrox
              hydrox 12 March 2021 12: 29
              +1
              Already thousands of times in various clever books it has been said that the humanities should be thrown out of the leadership, and natural scientists should be put in their place (only natural scientists are given the foundations of the laws of nature, according to which humanity lives, during training).
            2. hydrox
              hydrox 12 March 2021 17: 11
              0
              So, when the Russian economy sank "in black" - just when all the Gaster were returned home, and the borders were closed - the economy did not have enough strength, they will not be enough this year, especially all the money that is pledged into the programs on the page, almost all are used up.
        2. Machito
          Machito 12 March 2021 14: 47
          0
          Quote: hydrox
          Forgive me, but the population is without work and without money, and they have no time for toys, but for food, and for children to buy summer clothes and shoes (and there it will be time to get ready for school).
          In short, this construction is specifically an anti-national idea ... and liberda will be happy to discuss the method of financial ruin of Russia. sad

          The population is sitting without work and money for another reason. What do you hear about 25 million high-tech jobs?
          1. hydrox
            hydrox 12 March 2021 16: 28
            -1
            There is simply no money to build those enterprises that will contain those 25 million jobs - they are planned for the costs of building a UDC
            1. Machito
              Machito 12 March 2021 16: 52
              -1
              Actually, we have a surplus budget. The shipyards in Kerch are high-tech jobs. Have you been a member of EdRo for a long time?
              1. hydrox
                hydrox 12 March 2021 17: 17
                -1
                I was not sure that you are a liberal: now I am convinced.
                But since when has welding become a HIGH technology ???
                At least a ruble with the production of the case had ??
                All the best.
                1. Machito
                  Machito 12 March 2021 17: 49
                  +2
                  Not guessing, I'm a socialist. Welding and welding are different. He worked in communications, utilities, car service, had his own workshop for the production of custom-made cabinet furniture, which created some kind of jobs.
                  1. hydrox
                    hydrox 12 March 2021 18: 38
                    -1
                    I do not want to offend, but socialists, liberals, democrats - everything is one for the Russian people, EVERYTHING distinguished themselves in plundering the people's property in the 90s ...
                    1. Machito
                      Machito 12 March 2021 18: 42
                      +2
                      And your political credo: ALWAYS, like O. Bender?
                      1. hydrox
                        hydrox 12 March 2021 22: 17
                        -1
                        My motto is: not to trust anyone or anything if it is not based on common sense and statistics (and this NOT Levada.!)
                      2. d4rkmesa
                        d4rkmesa 13 March 2021 13: 26
                        -1
                        "common sense" - i.e. on their own subjective opinion, "and statistics" - as usual, there is a lie, but there is statistics that rotate in the direction you like.
                2. The comment was deleted.
              2. Orkraider
                Orkraider 13 March 2021 13: 33
                +1
                Quote: hydrox
                But since when has welding become a HIGH technology?


                Good day.
                And let me get into your dialogue and ask why you don't consider welding a technology? For example, welding complex titanium parts requires the highest qualifications of welders and special cameras.
                For the manufacture of the beam, a technological process was developed for electron beam welding in a neutral environment or in a vacuum. “As you know, titanium is not cooked in air - therefore it is done either in a vacuum or in a neutral environment, two parts were welded together in a vacuum chamber under special additives and fluxes. Popular science literature says that such welding is still a unique technology and can be considered a national priority of the country.

                I cited this text from the description of the restoration of the technology of welding titanium parts at KAZ, which is posted, by the way, on this site.
                1. Orkraider
                  Orkraider 13 March 2021 13: 52
                  +1
                  And I will add: the manufacture of MK, the manufacture of embedded parts, the manufacture of housings, pipeline blocks, etc. includes a lot of added value, just because of the welding work. And welders who have the right NAKS are worth their weight in gold, and they are in demand.
                  Example: poor-quality welded seams at one of the factories of a neighboring country, but they could not boil it with high quality, due to the loss of competence, they led to the loss of the order.

                  This (above) is certainly not High technology, but the increase in jobs in this category is clearly positive and affects our production capabilities.

                  Once again, I'm sorry that I got into your dialogue.
                2. hydrox
                  hydrox 13 March 2021 13: 54
                  -1
                  1. Welding of steel sheets at shipyards is not a HIGH technology, but an ordinary industrial one.
                  2. There was no question of welding titanium, since I can still boil gold to arsenides, but I didn’t boil it for titanium - I didn’t. laughing
  • rocket757
    rocket757 12 March 2021 07: 36
    -4
    The differences between the promising Russian helicopter carriers of the project 23900 and the large landing craft of the project 11711 are named

    It will be much more interesting when these promising ones will be!
    And so, that without serious measures / actions to restore the economic power of the country, there are CASES that should be a priority in the first place ... I don’t want to repeat it.
    1. hydrox
      hydrox 12 March 2021 10: 06
      -4
      The liberda strongly dislike your statements about the power of the country (the Yankees also turn green when they hear this), but the Yankees at least cannot lower the rating, but the sofas not only can, but want to!
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 12 March 2021 10: 14
        +1
        Why do I care what they don't like?
        I was / is a soldier of my country, I worked in the military-industrial complex, I work in industry ... that I see, that I know, that I understand ... what "my soul hurts" about, that's what I'm writing about!
        And so, I'm offended for POWER, there are fears ...
  • UVB
    UVB 12 March 2021 07: 39
    +3
    Prospective Russian helicopter carriers of Project 23900 will be able to take on board up to 1 marines, while Project 11711 Large Landing Ships (BDK) can accommodate no more than 300 Marines.
    What a news! No one would have thought that with an almost fivefold difference in displacement, the UDC would be able to take on board more marines!
    1. novel66
      novel66 12 March 2021 07: 50
      -5
      marines are different
  • Koval Sergey
    Koval Sergey 12 March 2021 08: 16
    +16
    I thought they would say something new ...
  • abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 12 March 2021 08: 18
    +3
    What is most strange to me in the article is that in the title it seems like a helicopter carrier is designated, but in the text everything says that the UDC is being considered. About the main thing - helicopters in one casual sentence, and everything else about the infantry.
    And the title itself is strange in general. For it is said about the difference between the helicopter carrier and the BDK. It's like writing an article "What is the difference between an elephant and a rhinoceros"
  • Stepan S
    Stepan S 12 March 2021 09: 52
    +2
    1000 marines on board, it is quite dangerous, in case of destruction of the ship, too much risk for l / s
    1. Runway
      Runway 12 March 2021 10: 33
      +2
      Therefore, this steamer (even in the event of a local conflict) will be spanked in a detachment with at least 2 more large landing ships (if the task is to push the brigade ashore) and steamers of the auxiliary fleet.
      In addition to them - a pair of KUG, a pair of KPUG, OKOPchik and a pair of minesweepers and a pair of submarines. 12 frigates / corvettes, 2 sea minesweepers and a pair of "diesels" are oncoming. And in the absence of AUG, her task will be dragged by a pair of IAP.
      Those. landing at TO / NW (Arctic) theater of operations = Fleet operations (unification).
      1. hydrox
        hydrox 12 March 2021 17: 21
        +2
        Such an order is an awesomely tasty target !!! good
    2. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 12 March 2021 11: 42
      0
      Unfortunately, risk is an integral part of war. There is always a good chance to go to fish food. Destroyers must fight off attacks on transports and landing ships. The Kriegsmarines posed a great danger until the sonars and radars of surface ships reached a certain level, and the situation suddenly turned upside down. But that was 75+ years ago, and now torpedo attacks are often practiced by NATO and the Japanese, and the countermeasures are still the same, only somewhat different in quality.
    3. donavi49
      donavi49 12 March 2021 11: 45
      +5
      And let the battalion on the BDK burn? Or do you think the BDK will regret the anti-ship missiles? Moreover, anti-ship missiles, aviation and submarines are dangerous for the UDC. That is, those threats that, in general, can be suppressed. Of course, some thread, Excalibur or Krasnopol, can arrive, but again, it can also fly in the BDK.

      On the other hand, the BDK, in addition to threats from submarines, anti-ship missiles and aviation, has:
      - mining approaches to the bay or coast.
      - no longer Excaliburs / Krasnopoli at the range limit, but full-fledged operation of artillery batteries.
      - all the under-suppressed coastal defense will begin to fold along the large landing ships going in 1,5-2 knots. Or do you think 100 mm OFS in the wheelhouse from the buried T-55A, these are toys? So, I will remind, without land mines into the wheelhouse, without shelling, without mines, at his home range, Oslyabya ran aground, ran aground across the landing sector (that is, tore it off with all other large landing craft) and was pulled off by 3 tugs for several days.
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 13 March 2021 14: 09
        0
        And let the battalion on the BDK burn? Or do you think the BDK will regret the anti-ship missiles? Moreover, anti-ship missiles, aviation and submarines are dangerous for the UDC.
        Bravo, I have already written after you about these "troubles"! drinks Many people think or simply forget .. that it is more likely that these classes: BDK and UDC, can themselves suppress coastal forces, naval aviation and fight corvettes and submarines on equal terms, and then land troops on the edge ...!? laughing wink
  • Evil 55
    Evil 55 12 March 2021 13: 29
    +2
    Show the project how many readers can already be fed with fairy tales ..
  • lopuhan2006
    lopuhan2006 12 March 2021 14: 16
    0
    23900 of course are needed, but .... where can the paratrooper get the helicopter
  • Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 12 March 2021 15: 26
    +1
    "... the two helicopter carriers under construction in Kerch significantly exceed the capacity of the BDK project 11711,"
    And what turns out to be (now) in Kerch being built by helicopter carriers? What a twist!
    A week, I was not even on sick leave. And then there is such news ...
  • mlad
    mlad 12 March 2021 15: 46
    0
    UDC is needed by the country, maybe God forbid in a big war they will be destroyed, as perhaps the American aircraft carriers, but in local conflicts where it is necessary to protect the interests of the country, they are necessary, and with the appearance of such ships and interests will expand. Their mere appearance off the coast of an unfriendly country will cool their ardor.
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 13 March 2021 14: 05
      0
      Their mere appearance off the coast of an unfriendly country will cool their ardor.
      and will show the "cute grin" of calculations of coastal complexes with anti-ship missiles and naval aviation in a compartment, that very unfriendly country, when they still begin to cross sea borders ...! ???
  • Dart2027
    Dart2027 12 March 2021 18: 55
    +1
    The difference is very simple - these are ships of different classes.
  • tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 12 March 2021 20: 20
    +1
    All is well and have two cable-laying vessels removed from the camera dock?
  • Radikal
    Radikal 12 March 2021 20: 45
    +2
    Quote: loki565
    Yes, there are no differences. What is one, what is the second - projects, paper sketches. Topics from the series: "If I had ..."

    Most likely, a springboard will be installed for promising UAVs ...
    Better ... a trampoline! lol
  • Intruder
    Intruder 13 March 2021 14: 03
    0
    Promising Russian helicopter carriers of project 23900
    maybe more precisely, UDC !?
  • Escobar
    Escobar 13 March 2021 15: 04
    0
    Who will accompany them? By the time they are delivered, Soviet cruisers and destroyers will be useless without modernization. Frigates 22350? Do they correspond in range and seaworthiness? And they will be able to clear the coast with one 130 mm cannon and a maximum of 24 cruise missiles (if at all to score on the protection of the escort and not fill the launch cells with anti-ship missiles and plur? They rely on enemy territory for one Ka-52 recklessly.
  • Holuay T.O
    Holuay T.O 13 March 2021 17: 37
    -1
    Mistral is certainly better
  • The comment was deleted.