Military Review

Contrary to promises not to expand to the east: on the chances of Georgia and Ukraine for admission to NATO

91

Contrary to initial promises not to expand eastward, NATO has pursued an active policy of integrating Eastern European countries since the early 1990s. First, the alliance included the countries - former members of the Warsaw Pact Organization, then - the three Baltic republics of the ex-USSR, as well as a number of countries formed as a result of the collapse of Yugoslavia. The latter is Macedonia, which was forced to be renamed North Macedonia in order to be admitted to the alliance.


At the same time, it is possible that the bloc and the US standing behind it are not going to stop at the entry of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania into NATO, the prospect of integrating other post-Soviet republics into the alliance is too tempting. Now the world is talking about the chances of Georgia and Ukraine for admission to NATO. Another possible candidate is Moldova.

Who aspires to NATO in the post-Soviet space


The most valuable acquisition of NATO from a military-political point of view, among the above-mentioned states, would be Ukraine - a country with a population of many millions, the remnants of a developed Soviet industry and infrastructure, with a long border with Russia and access to the Black and Azov Seas. Georgia is less interesting for NATO in terms of economic and demographic potential, but its inclusion in the alliance would increase its military presence in the Caucasus, as well as make a direct corridor from Turkey to the southern borders of Russia.

But the prospect of Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO is being opposed not only in Moscow, but also in the West. First, both countries cannot be called economically prosperous and politically stable. In fact, this will be another ballast for the United States and Western Europe, which will have to be heavily invested in.

Secondly, both Ukraine and Georgia, as well as Moldova are countries with unresolved territorial problems: Donbass, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Transnistria. To include countries with similar problems in the alliance means artificially bringing closer a military confrontation with Russia that is dangerous for the whole world. Sensible politicians in the West understand this very well and do not want to test the fate of civilization once again. But talking about a possible entry, making promises - as without it ...

But this problem can still be solved, especially if Moscow's political course changes. Therefore, if today NATO refrains from accepting Ukraine and Georgia into its membership, this does not mean at all that the alliance will adhere to such a policy in the future. In addition, it cannot be ruled out that Washington will go on an adventure and decide to check the Russian response by including Georgia in the alliance (for a start).


Why Georgia is a more likely candidate for early NATO membership


Why Georgia? First, it is easier to integrate Georgia into NATO than Ukraine, given the size of the territory and the population of the country. Secondly, Georgia is still a country that is farther from Russia in an ethnic and cultural vein. The Russian population, especially in difficult economic conditions, has little interest in the political future of Georgia.

A completely different matter is Ukraine, whose admission to NATO will inevitably affect the situation with Donbass and Crimea. In addition, in Ukraine, a significant part of the population is still Russian people - with Russian culture, language, mentality, who think of themselves within the framework of a single Russian world. Ukraine can become both a big gain and a serious problem for the alliance, and, most likely, NATO will choose the tactics of waiting and long observation in relation to this country.

Georgia may receive a NATO Membership Action Plan earlier than Ukraine. This opinion, for example, is shared by the Russian politician Inal Ardzinba, judging by the materials in the media. And there are grounds for such a position: on the NATO website back in October 2020, information appeared that Georgia was already preparing to join the alliance. There is no such information about Ukraine, which unambiguously speaks of Tbilisi's greater than Ukrainian successes in relations with Brussels and Washington.

As for the prospects for Ukraine, they definitely exist, but the process of this country joining the North Atlantic Alliance will be much more lengthy and painful, and will also depend on the political and economic situation in Russia. A separate question: if ever NATO is ready to accept the same Georgia and Ukraine, what will happen to the military bloc itself by that time or after that? Will it not turn out that the United States and Britain with several Russophobic Eastern European states will remain in its structure ... But there is also such a prospect.
Author:
Photos used:
Twitter / Mission of Georgia to NATO
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  1. Aerodrome
    Aerodrome 1 March 2021 16: 33
    +5
    Contrary to promises not to expand east
    so ... who promised whom? Gorbachov was promised? so he is nobody today ... "the boy gave his word, the boy took the word ..." I see it today, "jugglers" with words ... you can go to "zero" ... if anything ... just understandable after that that their words are worthless.
    1. Professor
      Professor 1 March 2021 17: 08
      .
      Quote: Aerodrome
      Contrary to promises not to expand east
      so ... who promised whom? Gorbachov was promised? so he is nobody today ... "the boy gave his word, the boy took the word ..." I see it today, "jugglers" with words ... you can go to "zero" ... if anything ... just understandable after that that their words are worthless.

      1. Promises in words are "divorce". In international relations, it is accepted to sign agreements, memoranda, etc.
      2. The Russian Federation was the first to place its military base near the borders of NATO (102nd) and only after that NATO "went to the East"
      3. George, Moldova, Ukraine, Kazakhstan and further on the list are sovereign states and have the right to join any military alliances without asking the consent of the former metropolis. These are international norms.
      4. Most importantly: do you want your neighbors to join NATO? Make your country attractive enough so that allies stand in line with you. It should be from the beginning to stop frightening your neighbors with military force, territorial claims and other "Rospotrebnadzor".
      hi
      1. Aerodrome
        Aerodrome 1 March 2021 17: 14
        +6
        Quote: Professor
        2. The Russian Federation was the first to place its military base near the borders of NATO (102nd) and only after that NATO "went to the East"

        here you are, Oleg, juggling with words ... 102 base in Armenia has always been under different names .. 344 motorized rifle regiment, then 123 motorized rifle ... but you know just as well as me, you just troll.
        1. Professor
          Professor 1 March 2021 21: 00
          -9
          Quote: Aerodrome
          here you are, Oleg, juggling with words ... 102 base in Armenia has always been under different names .. 344 motorized rifle regiment, then 123 motorized rifle ... but you know just as well as me, you just troll.

          You see how you don't like facts. 102nd base of the Russian Federation in Gyumri (7 km from the border with the NATO country) withEstablished in accordance with the Treaty on the Legal Status of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation on the Territory of Armenia, signed by 21 August 1992 year... NATO expansion to the East has taken place 12 March 1999 year... So who started?

          Quote: Volodin
          Quote: Professor
          It should be from the beginning to stop frightening your neighbors with military force, territorial claims and other "Rospotrebnadzor"

          Are you talking about Israel and its neighbor, the independent state of Palestine? About Israel and its neighbor, the independent state of Syria?

          I have not heard of an independent state of Palestine. Where is it? What is the name of the capital, what currency, airport, port?

          An independent state of Syria is one that does not recognize the existence of an independent state of Israel and constantly attacks Israel in order to destroy Israel? Is this the one that Israel offers a world without preconditions? Yes, I know that. Only for some reason it does not run into military alliances. Probably not afraid of Israel.
          1. dSK
            dSK 2 March 2021 01: 07
            +2
            Quote: Professor
            how are the facts to you

            Professor, here is Iran threatening Israel and acting against it, what is Israel doing? Bombs, organizes terrorist attacks. Openly preparing a strategic strike on Iran.
            In 1949, NATO included 12 countries.
            "Greece and Turkey joined NATO in 1952 (" First NATO Expansion "). West Germany became a NATO member in 1955 (" Second NATO Expansion ").
            In 1954, the USSR applied to join NATO, which was rejected. "In response, the Warsaw Pact was created in 1955. Now it has been dissolved. there are already 30 countries in NATO.
            NATO calls Russia enemy number 1... The states at the head of NATO are preparing plans for its complete destruction and does not hide it.
            The question is - can Russia act like Israel with respect to Iran, or is it denied the right to exist?
            1. Professor
              Professor 2 March 2021 07: 29
              -1
              Quote: dsk
              Professor, here is Iran threatening Israel and acting against it, what is Israel doing? Bombs, organizes terrorist attacks. Openly preparing a strategic strike on Iran.

              Of course not. They have never bombed Iran and never staged a single terrorist attack. We operate strictly in the diplomatic field. For example, from the UN rostrum.


              Quote: dsk
              In 1949, NATO included 12 countries.
              "Greece and Turkey joined NATO in 1952 (" First NATO Expansion "). West Germany became a NATO member in 1955 (" Second NATO Expansion ").
              In 1954, the USSR applied to join NATO, which was rejected. "In response, the Warsaw Pact was created in 1955. Now it has been dissolved. And NATO already has 30 countries.

              ... and the Russian troops contrary to the requirements of the states themselves are located on the territories of Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine. And only NATO membership guarantees that another country will not be included in this list "at the numerous requests of workers." So NATO enlargement is not over. You will see the guilty in the mirror.

              Quote: dsk
              NATO calls Russia enemy number 1. The states at the head of NATO are preparing plans for its complete destruction and does not hide it.
              The question is - can Russia act like Israel with respect to Iran, or is it denied the right to exist?

              Not a single NATO country calls for the destruction of the Russian Federation. Iran threatens to "wipe Israel off the map of the world." To act like Israel is to call for a diplomatic solution to the issue. You also have the right to do so. hi
              1. dSK
                dSK 2 March 2021 09: 52
                -1
                Quote: Professor
                Doing like Israel is calling for a diplomatic solution

                Really? Israel every week at night bombing the capital of Syria, as it says - "destroys the Iranian military." Your compatriots on this site have confirmed that the murder of the Iranian scientist was the work of Israeli special services and this must be continued. Israel bought $ 3 billion from the United States to strike Iran's nuclear power plant ...
                Hundreds of NATO bases around the world and they are growing like mushrooms. A fresh base on the territory of Syria, without any agreement with it ...
                1. dSK
                  dSK 2 March 2021 09: 56
                  0
                  The American submarine "USS John Warner" tried to sink Russian ships off the coast of Syria. A few hours ago, it became known about the intentions of the command of the US Navy to order the destruction of several Russian warships, which were in the territorial waters of Syria. / 02.03.2021. /
                2. Professor
                  Professor 3 March 2021 21: 12
                  0
                  Quote: dsk
                  Really?

                  Really. We offer peace, and in return ...

                  Quote: dsk
                  Your compatriots on this site have confirmed that the murder of an Iranian scientist was the work of Israeli special services and this must be continued.

                  Were they there? wink

                  Quote: dsk
                  Israel bought $ 3 billion from the United States to strike Iran's nuclear power plant ...

                  We are never against Iranian nuclear power plants.
                  We are in a position to bomb the nuclear power plant and would have bombed it if it interfered with us.

                  Quote: dsk
                  Hundreds of NATO bases around the world and they are growing like mushrooms. A fresh base on the territory of Syria, without any agreement with it ...

                  Well? Syria is unable to defend its sovereignty. This is her problem.
          2. Ryusey
            Ryusey 3 March 2021 14: 58
            -1
            The world is a complex, multifaceted and changeable thing, no matter how after a while the questions arise: What is Israel? Where did he exist? ...
      2. Volodin
        Volodin 1 March 2021 17: 29
        +10
        Quote: Professor
        It should be from the beginning to stop frightening your neighbors with military force, territorial claims and other "Rospotrebnadzor"

        Are you talking about Israel and its neighbor, the independent state of Palestine? About Israel and its neighbor, the independent state of Syria?
        1. atalef
          atalef 4 March 2021 11: 21
          -1
          Quote: Volodin
          an independent state of Palestine?

          Is there such a state? And what territories belong to them? what is their capital? currency unit ?
          This * independent * state has fewer state attributes than the LPR and Abkhazia.
      3. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 1 March 2021 17: 35
        +4
        Do you understand?) This is our fault) 102 in Armenia was put first)
        1. Vladimir Mashkov
          Vladimir Mashkov 1 March 2021 19: 14
          +2
          Georgia is like Georgia: it is far away, but Ilya is greatly mistaken about NATO and Ukraine. Yes, officially Ukraine not to NATO. AND unofficially NATO has been in Ukraine for a long time: NATO members constantly teach and train APUs, their ships constantly call in Odessa, planes constantly fly to Ukraine, scouts constantly fly near Crimea and Donbass, constantly joint exercises (both sea and land) are being conducted, and a base is being built in Ochakov , are in Donbass! NATO members use Ukraine in full without publicity. In principle, if there was no war in Donbass and NATO accepted Ukraine into the alliance, then Russia would have a big headache with the NATO border and missile bases near Moscow. I believe that the Russian leadership, both in 2014 and now, is doing more mistake not eliminating and not eliminating this threat. And NATO and the State Department are constantly blackmailing and threatening this possible NATO step!
      4. Ros 56
        Ros 56 1 March 2021 18: 07
        +2
        You lousy professor, you turn everything over the stump-deck. Let all these former ones return what the Soviet Union gave them, then we'll see who the hell needs them. When families share junk, dust flies up to the ceiling. And here is not junk, but our lands, watered with sweat and blood of our people. hi
        1. Antonio_Mariarti
          Antonio_Mariarti 1 March 2021 20: 46
          -2
          Quote: Ros 56
          You lousy professor, you turn everything over the stump-deck. Let all these former ones return what the Soviet Union gave them, then we'll see who the hell needs them. When families share junk, dust flies up to the ceiling. And here is not junk, but our lands, watered with sweat and blood of our people. hi

          In honor of what should they return? As the saying goes: gifts are not redeemable.
          1. Ryusey
            Ryusey 3 March 2021 14: 59
            -1
            Uh-huh, they are taken by force ...
      5. Dimide
        Dimide 1 March 2021 18: 07
        +1
        The memorandum, as practice shows, does not "pop up"
      6. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 1 March 2021 18: 21
        +2
        Quote: Professor

        1. Promises in words are "divorce". In international relations, it is customary to sign agreements, memorandums, etc.

        Those for whom you pray, more than once or twice wiped themselves with a piece of paper on which an agreement is written, and not some kind of agreement, not to mention a memorandum.
        Quote: Professor
        3. George,

        And also a professor. You don't know what they write on the Russian site - Georgia.
        Quote: Professor

        4. Make your country attractive enough so that allies stand in line with you.

        Those you pray for are doing their best to make it happen as late as possible. And, I must say, not without success. And we ... endure for a long time. And then .. who didn’t hide, I’m not to blame.
        By the way, I must point out to you that it is not the peoples who are joining NATO, it is the "elites" who are joining NATO.
        1. dSK
          dSK 1 March 2021 18: 42
          0
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          it is the "elites" that are joining NATO.

          Will it not turn out that the United States and Britain will remain in its composition with several Eastern European Russophobic states ...
          "Dreams, dreams, what a sweetness" ...
          NATO is not ruled by stupid people, for 70 years no member has been able to jump out of this "mousetrap". France, under de Gaulle, tried to get out ...
          It is not for nothing that the project of the controlled block = "Georgia - Ukraine - Moldova" has been launched. Countries that have "lost" their territory as a result of Russia's "actions" are easier to incite against it and remain "on the sidelines" themselves.
        2. Antonio_Mariarti
          Antonio_Mariarti 1 March 2021 20: 48
          -1
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Quote: Professor

          1. Promises in words are "divorce". In international relations, it is customary to sign agreements, memorandums, etc.

          Those for whom you pray, more than once or twice wiped themselves with a piece of paper on which an agreement is written, and not some kind of agreement, not to mention a memorandum.
          Quote: Professor
          3. George,

          And also a professor. You don't know what they write on the Russian site - Georgia.
          Quote: Professor

          4. Make your country attractive enough so that allies stand in line with you.

          Those you pray for are doing their best to make it happen as late as possible. And, I must say, not without success. And we ... endure for a long time. And then .. who didn’t hide, I’m not to blame.
          By the way, I must point out to you that it is not the peoples who are joining NATO, it is the "elites" who are joining NATO.

          And who are they who prevent Russia from becoming strong?
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 1 March 2021 23: 23
            -1
            Quote: Antonio_Mariarti
            And who are they who prevent Russia from becoming strong?

            They do not interfere, but try to contain.
            1. Antonio_Mariarti
              Antonio_Mariarti 2 March 2021 11: 00
              +1
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Quote: Antonio_Mariarti
              And who are they who prevent Russia from becoming strong?

              They do not interfere, but try to contain.

              Until 2014, the West did not want to restrain Russia in any way, on the contrary. Russia itself severed ties with the West.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 2 March 2021 11: 48
                0
                Quote: Antonio_Mariarti

                Until 2014, the West did not want to restrain Russia in any way, on the contrary. Russia itself severed ties with the West.

                You just don't know that. Restrained, and how.
        3. Professor
          Professor 1 March 2021 21: 10
          -3
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Those for whom you pray, more than once or twice wiped themselves with a piece of paper on which an agreement is written, and not some kind of agreement, not to mention a memorandum.

          Are you talking about the Treaty on the Territorial Integrity of Ukraine or the AKA "Budapest Memorandum"?

          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          And also a professor. You don't know what they write on the Russian site - Georgia.

          Yah? "Secondly, both Ukraine and Georgia, as well as Moldova" ... Moldova? Where is Moldova? Russian doesn't work here? wassat

          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Those you pray for are doing their best to make it happen as late as possible. And, I must say, not without success. And we ... endure for a long time. And then .. who didn’t hide, I’m not to blame.
          By the way, I must point out to you that it is not the peoples who are joining NATO, it is the "elites" who are joining NATO.

          I pray to the Almighty and only to him.
          And NATO is joined by countries with democratically elected governments, and in none of these countries the people rebelled against joining NATO.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 1 March 2021 23: 15
            0
            Quote: Professor

            Are you talking about the Treaty on the Territorial Integrity of Ukraine or the AKA "Budapest Memorandum"?

            The ones you pray for have not ratified it. What do you want from us?
            Quote: Professor
            I pray to the Almighty and only to him.

            And you pray for him, but, nevertheless, you pray more for mattress mats, for without their support the Arabs will crush you and the Almighty will not help.
            Quote: Professor
            governments and in none of these countries did the people rebel against joining NATO.

            Well, we have seen enough of popular uprisings in "democratic" countries, you don't have to tell.
            1. Professor
              Professor 2 March 2021 07: 18
              0
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              The ones you pray for have not ratified it. What do you want from us?

              Believe it or not, he demanded ratification. Match .... fellow

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk

              And you pray for him, but, nevertheless, you pray more for mattress mats, for without their support the Arabs will crush you and the Almighty will not help.

              Until 1969, no one supported us. Not a single American soldier has ever fought for us. There was not a Second Front, I won’t get there. Where are the Arabs?
              Prayer begins with the words "Gd is one ..." There is and will not be another Gd, and only to the Almighty we pray. Monotheism is our patent.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Well, we have seen enough of popular uprisings in "democratic" countries, you don't have to tell.

              In democratic countries, there are no popular uprisings since power is changing at the elections. Keywords "power is changing".
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 2 March 2021 10: 26
                0
                Quote: Professor

                Believe it or not, he demanded ratification. Match ...

                From your congress? AND? What's the result?
                Quote: Professor
                Until 1969, no one supported us.

                Yes, yes, no one at all. Where did you get the weapons of the Wehrmacht then? Where does finance come from? And not only finance.
                Don't tell me about democracy. There is none in any country in the world.
                Democracy = power of the people. Who has the power? The one to whom they obey. In which country is the power subordinate to the people? There are no such countries.
                Power is the people’s wage earners. And if so, the people determine the amount of payment for work, they can drive them out for poor work (without any uprisings), or they can leave them in the service for life for good work. Where is there such a thing? Nowhere.
                1. Professor
                  Professor 3 March 2021 20: 58
                  -1
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Quote: Professor

                  Believe it or not, he demanded ratification. Match ...

                  From your congress? AND? What's the result?

                  My typo. I wanted to write "NOT required" since no ratification was required.

                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Yes, yes, no one at all. Where did you get the weapons of the Wehrmacht then? Where does finance come from? And not only finance.

                  Bought in the tridoroga. For example, the converted Misterschmites at $ 150 apiece when the Boeing Bomber cost $ 000. It was just that the "helpers" were doing good business.

                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Don't tell me about democracy. There is none in any country in the world.
                  Democracy = power of the people. Who has the power? The one to whom they obey. In which country is the power subordinate to the people? There are no such countries.
                  Power is the people’s wage earners. And if so, the people determine the amount of payment for work, they can drive them out for poor work (without any uprisings), or they can leave them in the service for life for good work. Where is there such a thing? Nowhere.

                  Of course there is. I will not say anything about Finland and Sweden, but even in Israel, the government that does not cope with its duties sends the people home. Home the people sent the winner of Churchill, the people sent home the winner Meir and the winner Thatcher. And all because the people are simply tired of them.

                  In democratic countries, there are no popular uprisings as power changes in elections. The key words are "power is changing."
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 3 March 2021 22: 00
                    -1
                    Quote: Professor

                    My typo. I wanted to write "NOT required" since no ratification was required.

                    Without ratification by parliament, no treaty can enter into force.
                    Quote: Professor

                    Bought in the tridoroga. For example, the converted Misterschmites at $ 150 apiece when the Boeing Bomber cost $ 000. It was just that the "helpers" were doing good business.

                    Did you draw the denyushka yourself?
                    Quote: Professor
                    The people sent home the winner of Churchill, the people sent home the winner Meir and the winner Thatcher. And all because the people are simply tired of them.

                    Early? And since it is not ahead of schedule, but at the next elections, then this is not the desire of the people, but the good work of propagandists and the bad work of the election headquarters of Churchill, Meir and other characters.
                    Quote: Professor
                    The key words are "power is changing."

                    What have you set up - "the power is changing, the power is changing" Is the change of power an end in itself?
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 3 March 2021 22: 39
                      -1
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      Without ratification by parliament, no treaty can enter into force.

                      Where did you read such nonsense? Share the link.

                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      Did you draw the denyushka yourself?

                      And they themselves earned money and begged for rich Jews.

                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      Early? And since it is not ahead of schedule, but at the next elections, then this is not the desire of the people, but the good work of propagandists and the bad work of the election headquarters of Churchill, Meir and other characters.

                      Whether the winner is Dzhugashvili ... Yes?
                      And they were given a ride at the next elections. The power has changed in spite of the past merits. Democracy, her mother.

                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      What have you set up - "the power is changing, the power is changing" Is the change of power an end in itself?

                      Power change is an integral part of democracy. Only under her there is a change of power through elections.
                      1. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 3 March 2021 23: 45
                        -1
                        Quote: Professor
                        Where did you read such nonsense? Share the link.

                        Well, maybe in "democratic" Israel this is stupidity ...
                        Quote: Professor

                        And they themselves earned money

                        On the plantations of the Palestinians? laughing
                        Quote: Professor
                        Whether the winner is Dzhugashvili ... Yes?

                        And what did Dzhugashvili not please you with? None of your presidents and prime ministers have come close to reaching his intellectual level.
                        And you still have to grow and grow up to Soviet democracy, without any hope of growing up to it.
                        Quote: Professor

                        Power change is an integral part of democracy. Only under her there is a change of power through elections.

                        Again you crawl about the change of power. I ask again - is this an end in itself?
                      2. Professor
                        Professor 4 March 2021 07: 19
                        -1
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Quote: Professor
                        Where did you read such nonsense? Share the link.

                        Well, maybe in "democratic" Israel this is stupidity ..

                        Where is the link? Don't go away from the question.

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Quote: Professor

                        And they themselves earned money

                        On the plantations of the Palestinians?

                        We sell you a UAV.

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And what did Dzhugashvili not please you with? None of your presidents and prime ministers have come close to reaching his intellectual level.
                        And you still have to grow and grow up to Soviet democracy, without any hope of growing up to it.

                        If you measure the "intellectual level" by the degree of paranoia and the number of ruined citizens, then Yosya is not in the first place here either.

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And you still have to grow and grow up to Soviet democracy, without any hope of growing up to it.

                        "Soviet democracy" is like "kosher pork". It seems to exist in theory, but in practice it is not possible. hi
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Again you crawl about the change of power. I ask again - is this an end in itself?

                        And once again: where there is no change of power, there is no democracy.
                      3. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 4 March 2021 11: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Professor
                        Where is the link?

                        Seek and find.
                        Quote: Professor
                        We sell you a UAV.

                        Since the age of 48? Did you buy Messerschmitts for the money you earned from the sale of the UAV? Famously.
                        Quote: Professor

                        If you measure the "intellectual level" by the degree of paranoia and the number of ruined citizens,

                        Is this how the intellectual level is measured in Israel? Thank you, I didn’t know.
                        Quote: Professor
                        Soviet democracy "is like" kosher pork ".

                        What do you know about Soviet democracy?
                        Quote: Professor

                        And once again: where there is no change of power, there is no democracy.

                        I ask again - what is the purpose of the change of power?
                        Any action must have a purpose. Actions without a goal - id-io-t-iz-m!
                      4. Professor
                        Professor 4 March 2021 11: 34
                        -1
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Seek and find.

                        Merged?

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Since the age of 48? Did you buy Messerschmitts for the money you earned from the sale of the UAV? Famously.

                        If the Messerschmitts, then yes.

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Quote: Professor

                        If you measure the "intellectual level" by the degree of paranoia and the number of ruined citizens,

                        Is this how the intellectual level is measured in Israel? Thank you, I didn’t know.

                        Now you know.
                        This "big mind" Yosya ruined millions of his citizens? Then it turns out that our rulers are just downs. However, it suits us. We will choose other downs for Maxim. By the way, we have elections in a couple of weeks.

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        What do you know about Soviet democracy?

                        Same as kosher pork.

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        I ask again - what is the purpose of the change of power?
                        Any action must have a purpose. Actions without a goal - id-io-t-iz-m!

                        The only goal is to improve the well-being of the people, CEP. Now you know that too. hi
                      5. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 4 March 2021 14: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Professor
                        Merged?

                        Ага.
                        Quote: Professor
                        If the Messerschmitts, then yes.

                        Merged?
                        Quote: Professor
                        This "big mind" Yosya ruined millions of his citizens?

                        Yes Yes Yes. As soon as I got up, I first drank a glass of baby's blood, then took it in my hand (Mauser, Colt, Browning at your discretion) and went to destroy millions of fellow citizens. The fact that there were investigators, prosecutors, judges, lawyers is nothing. He probably sent them all on vacation for the entire period of his reign. Of course, with the preservation of wages. Or without it? What do you think? Silly question - he's a despot. Means without it.
                        Quote: Professor
                        Same as kosher pork.

                        In-o-t. Means nothing. And you undertake to judge.
                        Is this a question for you - is democracy a procedure or a means? Based on your - a change of power, then this is a procedure. Aren't you funny yourself? From this definition of democracy.
                      6. Professor
                        Professor 4 March 2021 16: 51
                        +2
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Aha

                        No problem. The drain is accepted. For honesty credit.

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Merged?

                        Not. There were simply no such planes.

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Yes Yes Yes. As soon as I got up, I first drank a glass of baby's blood, then took it in my hand (Mauser, Colt, Browning at your discretion) and went to destroy millions of fellow citizens. The fact that there were investigators, prosecutors, judges, lawyers is nothing. He probably sent them all on vacation for the entire period of his reign. Of course, with the preservation of wages. Or without it? What do you think? Silly question - he's a despot. Means without it.

                        Well yes. All this is under his clear leadership. The execution lists are especially "amusing". What kind of "investigators, prosecutors, judges, lawyers", CEP are there?

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        In-o-t. Means nothing. And you undertake to judge.
                        Is this a question for you - is democracy a procedure or a means? Based on your - a change of power, then this is a procedure. Aren't you funny yourself? From this definition of democracy.

                        No, not funny. He studied political science at the university. I got a five. I will distinguish democracy from autocracy. hi
                      7. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 4 March 2021 19: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Professor
                        Not. There were simply no such planes.

                        Yes? Oh, sorry, I didn’t indicate the model. Which one did you buy for the 109G drones sold to us (Gustav). Or were you content with an early model?
                        Quote: Professor

                        Well yes. All this is under his clear leadership. The execution lists are especially "amusing". What kind of "investigators, prosecutors, judges, lawyers", CEP are there?

                        In such cases, we say that I heard a ringing, but does not know where it is.
                        So, for the professors, there really were lists. I mean those lists that lay on Stalin's table. On whom? Prominent military men, politicians, civil servants. What were these lists? These were the decisions of the courts and military tribunals, according to which the court (!!!) delivered a verdict! But, in view of the importance of the defendant, did the court ask permission to carry out the execution of the sentence immediately or to postpone it indefinitely? NOT TO CHANGE THE COURT'S DECISION, but just to determine the time of execution of the sentence. And if Stalin put his signature, it meant the approval of the already adopted decision of the COURT, TRIBUNAL. Ie, the verdict came into force. And if he did not, then the convicted person was in prison and his sentence was not carried out. Incidentally, these "lists" were signed not only by Stalin, but by all members of the Politburo. Once again, they did not pass a sentence, they only gave their consent to the execution of the sentence.
                        Quote: Professor
                        I got a five.

                        And he did not vouch for the answer to the question - democracy is a procedure or a means. And what were you taught only there?
  2. Ryusey
    Ryusey 3 March 2021 15: 01
    0
    There was no second, there was and is the sixth.
  • Guru
    Guru 1 March 2021 19: 16
    0
    2. The Russian Federation was the first to place its military base near the borders of NATO (102nd) and only after that NATO "went to the East"
    Where is 102, and where is NATO. Well, why put the Owl on the Globe.
    1. Professor
      Professor 1 March 2021 21: 16
      -4
      Quote: Guru
      2. The Russian Federation was the first to place its military base near the borders of NATO (102nd) and only after that NATO "went to the East"
      Where is 102, and where is NATO. Well, why put the Owl on the Globe.

      From the 102nd headquarters, without binoculars, one can see the Karskiye Vorota (not to confuse the strait between the islands of Vaygach and Novaya Zemlya) in the NATO country of Turkey, KEP.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 1 March 2021 23: 21
        +4
        Quote: Professor

        From the headquarters of the 102nd without binoculars, the Karsky gate is visible

        Why do you smoke, "professor"? Maybe the Cilician Gate?
        We not only see them through binoculars, but also come close to NATO bases in Romania and Poland. Impudent, right?
        1. Professor
          Professor 2 March 2021 07: 20
          -2
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Quote: Professor

          From the headquarters of the 102nd without binoculars, the Karsky gate is visible

          Why do you smoke, "professor"? Maybe the Cilician Gate?
          We not only see them through binoculars, but also come close to NATO bases in Romania and Poland. Impudent, right?

          Keep silent for a smart one. From Gyumri you can see the ruins of the fortress AKA "Karskiye Vorota" located in Turkey on the way to Kars ...
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 2 March 2021 10: 45
            0
            Quote: Professor

            From Gyumri you can see the ruins of the fortress AKA "Karskiye Vorota" located in Turkey on the way to Kars ...

            Why don't the Turks know anything about this fortress?
            1. Professor
              Professor 4 March 2021 07: 21
              -1
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Quote: Professor

              From Gyumri you can see the ruins of the fortress AKA "Karskiye Vorota" located in Turkey on the way to Kars ...

              Why don't the Turks know anything about this fortress?

              They know.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 4 March 2021 10: 43
                0
                Quote: Professor
                They know.

                I asked. They say they have not heard of one.
                1. Professor
                  Professor 4 March 2021 11: 42
                  -1
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Quote: Professor
                  They know.

                  I asked. They say they have not heard of one.

                  That all the Turks were asked, or only those who do not know?

                  https://www.google.co.il/maps/@40.510087,43.5686693,3a,75y,300h,90t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipPx_W6Dm4Tmt4ar4u99iIWak8sXK8Ys3Vs1iNsL!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipPx_W6Dm4Tmt4ar4u99iIWak8sXK8Ys3Vs1iNsL%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya328.266-ro-0-fo100!7i12000!8i6000?hl=en&authuser=0
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 4 March 2021 13: 51
                    0
                    Quote: Professor
                    That all the Turks were asked, or only those who do not know?

                    I do not exclude such a possibility. Thanks for the link.
                  2. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 4 March 2021 13: 55
                    0
                    Quote: Professor
                    That all the Turks were asked, or only those who do not know?

                    Prof., What link did you give me? This is a photo of what? Ruins of what?
                    Where is the evidence that this is not the "Cilician Gate"?
                  3. Professor
                    Professor 4 March 2021 16: 45
                    0
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Quote: Professor
                    That all the Turks were asked, or only those who do not know?

                    Prof., What link did you give me? This is a photo of what? Ruins of what?
                    Where is the evidence that this is not the "Cilician Gate"?

                    There, in the link, the coordinates are crammed ...
                    40.510087,43.5686693
                  4. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 4 March 2021 19: 14
                    0
                    Quote: Professor

                    There, in the link, the coordinates are crammed ...
                    40.510087,43.5686693

                    Coordinates are not the name of an object.
  • Aleksandr1971
    Aleksandr1971 2 March 2021 05: 00
    0
    To prevent our neighbors Ukraine and Georgia from joining NATO, it is necessary to organize coups d'etat in them. After all, once NATO organized coups d'etat in them. And after the pro-Russian coup d'etat, Ukraine and Georgia will see Russia attractive again. Consequently, the only question is who to put and keep at the head of these states. Therefore, I expect adequate actions to resolve this issue on the part of the Russian special services. Which in recent years have been marked only by enchanting failures.
  • Aag
    Aag 1 March 2021 18: 47
    +2
    Quote: Aerodrome
    Contrary to promises not to expand east
    so ... who promised whom? Gorbachov was promised? so he is nobody today ... "the boy gave his word, the boy took the word ..." I see it today, "jugglers" with words ... you can go to "zero" ... if anything ... just understandable after that that their words are worthless.

    "... Gorbachov was promised? so he is nobody today ..."
    He ... today is the hero of the day, 90, however ... angry
    1. Ryusey
      Ryusey 3 March 2021 15: 02
      +1
      Yes, rats live long ...
  • parma
    parma 2 March 2021 10: 18
    +1
    Quote: Aerodrome
    Contrary to promises not to expand east
    so ... who promised whom? Gorbachov was promised? so he is nobody today ... "the boy gave his word, the boy took the word ..." I see it today, "jugglers" with words ... you can go to "zero" ... if anything ... just understandable after that that their words are worthless.

    Ahem, there was no promise not to expand NATO eastward, there was a promise not to deploy US troops east of Germany, because the US cannot speak for other countries .. the US has no bases east of Germany .. there are air force patrols, there are peacekeepers in the former Yugoslavia , there are no bases ... a legend invented by our politicians in 00-k ...
    1. Aag
      Aag 3 March 2021 15: 39
      -1
      Quote: parma
      Quote: Aerodrome
      Contrary to promises not to expand east
      so ... who promised whom? Gorbachov was promised? so he is nobody today ... "the boy gave his word, the boy took the word ..." I see it today, "jugglers" with words ... you can go to "zero" ... if anything ... just understandable after that that their words are worthless.

      Ahem, there was no promise not to expand NATO eastward, there was a promise not to deploy US troops east of Germany, because the US cannot speak for other countries .. the US has no bases east of Germany .. there are air force patrols, there are peacekeepers in the former Yugoslavia , there are no bases ... a legend invented by our politicians in 00-k ...

      You twist ...
      1. Aag
        Aag 3 March 2021 15: 45
        0
        Of course, our commanders are adept at juggling with words ... However, isn't Ukraine, Azerbaijan, not to mention the SVG countries (Warsaw Pact countries) east of Germany?)))
        1. parma
          parma 4 March 2021 08: 46
          0
          Quote: AAG
          Of course, our commanders are adept at juggling with words ... However, isn't Ukraine, Azerbaijan, not to mention the SVG countries (Warsaw Pact countries) east of Germany?)))

          And in Ukraine, Azerbaijan or in the countries of Eastern Europe, there are US military bases from the former members of the Department of Internal Affairs? In Eastern Europe, there is a base only in Kosovo, but it is peacekeeping, created in accordance with the UN decision .... Once again, there are troops arriving on a visit to the countries of Eastern Europe (including the former republics), there are planes performing patrolling, no military ... the word was given (there were no agreements), formally it is respected ... otherwise you can go far and name vacationers or retirees on a tour. voucher, from the military, the deployment of troops))
  • 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 1 March 2021 16: 34
    -1
    First of all, what will NATO get from their acceptance that they are not happy to do for NATA now? Nothing new, but they can get problems .. that's the whole point of the situation, they don't need them in NATO, otherwise they will suddenly have to intercede .. Yes, and they contradict the NATO Charter, since they have conflicts on the territory .. so they are not needed NATE- she already has them ..
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 1 March 2021 16: 39
      +6
      First of all, what will NATO get from their adoption that they are not doing for NATA now?

      Possibility of installing missile defense systems and short- and medium-range missiles ... the flight time of which will not be very long.
      Everything else already has ..
      And they contradict the NATO Charter,

      The charter will be rewritten in three seconds when the need arises.
      I think that Ukraine will not be accepted into NATO, it is more profitable to have what it is .. They will raise the radicals at the same time driving them into poverty, then they will try to send them to war with Russia.
      1. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 1 March 2021 16: 50
        +2
        and now, for example, in Lithuania or Turkey, what prevents the launch of missiles? Lithuania-Moscow (avg. 850 km) and Ukraine-Moscow (750 km) - there is not much difference, there is nothing to say about St. Petersburg .. Georgia / Turkey - even less difference .. I do not think that these 80-100 km of approach (a few minutes of flight missiles) - are worth all the risks associated with their admission to NATO ..
  • credo
    credo 1 March 2021 16: 35
    +3
    A separate question: if ever NATO is ready to accept the very same Georgia and Ukraine, what will happen to the military bloc itself by that time or after that?[Quote]
    We must proceed from the worst scenario, and not guess on the coffee grounds.
    And therefore, it is necessary to rebuild, first of all, your country and cares less about the former outskirts of the Russian Empire.
    Let the Anglo-Saxons have more headaches from "civilized Europeans" - Georgians and Ukrainians.
  • BAI
    BAI 1 March 2021 16: 38
    +4
    As practice has shown, in order to harm Russia in the West, any rules can be changed.
    1. BIABIA
      BIABIA 1 March 2021 16: 54
      +2
      They can easily be changed. They will create a conditional NATO-2 and all business ...
      1. Egoza
        Egoza 1 March 2021 17: 48
        -1
        Quote: BIABIA
        They will create a conditional NATO-2 and all business ...

        I don't know how Georgia is there, but Ukraine will definitely not be accepted. Simply because the entire alliance lacks the ability to resist theft and slovenliness. In fact, if they accept, then NATO-1 and NATO-2 will come to the khan.
    2. apro
      apro 1 March 2021 17: 14
      +2
      Quote: BAI
      As practice has shown, in order to harm Russia

      The presence of the West is not necessary. There is enough local staff ...
  • iouris
    iouris 1 March 2021 16: 51
    +1
    If a country "aspires to NATO", is under the external control of NATO and solves the tasks of NATO, then it is a NATO member.
    Who believes they are not NATO? Break down!
  • apro
    apro 1 March 2021 16: 57
    +4
    And what's wrong ??? the Russians left Europe betraying the Soviet allies. They held coups in the countries of the socialist camp. By bringing tank armies into the field, they cut down the aviation armies. Along the way, the Soviet economy was thrashed. The first to recognize independent republics in the post-Soviet space. reproach the parasites slogan forever.
    A holy place is never empty.
    Today, NATO is not the main threat, but the undefined Russian goal-setting. It is not clear what exactly Moscow wants. What is the purpose of body movements in the post-Soviet space.
  • svoit
    svoit 1 March 2021 17: 14
    0
    These countries have no territorial problems, not one western country recognized South Ossetia not Abkhazia, but the DPR, LPR, PMR were not recognized by anyone at all.
    1. Reiter
      Reiter 1 March 2021 17: 32
      +2
      They have no territorial problems! ?? Ahh, well then let them step in and admit that they have no territorial problems, let, for example, Georgia say that it has no problems with Abkhazia and Ossetia and will lag behind these territories.
    2. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 1 March 2021 17: 50
      -1
      Quote: svoit
      These countries have no territorial problems, not one western country recognized South Ossetia not Abkhazia, but the DPR, LPR, PMR were not recognized by anyone at all.

      that is, it is exactly if it was recognized, then there would not be, and this is how a conflict turns out
  • prior
    prior 1 March 2021 17: 43
    -1
    Well, how not to take Ukraine and Georgia into NATO ?!
    These are thousands of tons of free "cannon fodder"!
    For this, you can give up any principles, loot wins everything!
  • Your stranger
    Your stranger 1 March 2021 17: 48
    -1
    What is the Russian world?
    Mercedes iPhone and Georievskaya Ribbon?
  • Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 1 March 2021 17: 49
    -1
    Contrary to initial promises not to expand eastward, NATO has been pursuing an active policy of integrating Eastern European countries since the early 1990s.
    But was there such a promise or was it an invention of a tagged creature?
  • rocket757
    rocket757 1 March 2021 17: 50
    0
    The enemy's army is gathering, a handful of people ... well, there is less chance of missing if the time comes ... it's time.
    1. cniza
      cniza 1 March 2021 20: 38
      +1
      Quote: rocket757
      The enemy's army is gathering, a handful of people ... well, there is less chance of missing if the time comes ... it's time.


      As it was at all times, they gathered and attacked
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 2 March 2021 08: 11
        0
        Quote: cniza
        As it was at all times, they gathered and attacked

        Have to beat, over and over again! And then to recover, to lick the wounds ... if there is someone to recover, this time.
        1. cniza
          cniza 2 March 2021 09: 07
          +2
          History repeats itself, nothing changes, unfortunately ...
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 2 March 2021 09: 47
            +1
            Cycles, it's all about cycles ... different, solar, weather, development and others !!!
            1. cniza
              cniza 2 March 2021 10: 13
              +2
              Yes, everything is in a spiral, only different levels of technical development ...
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 2 March 2021 10: 47
                +1
                There can be many external changes, but the essence remains the same.
  • cniza
    cniza 1 March 2021 20: 37
    +2
    A separate question: if ever NATO is ready to accept the very same Georgia and Ukraine, what will happen to the military bloc itself by that time or after that? Will it not turn out that the United States and Britain with several Russophobic Eastern European states will remain in its composition ... But there is also such a prospect.


    Maybe that's why the United States seeks, in violation of all provisions, to pull up the former allies ...
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 2 March 2021 08: 13
      +1
      Whatever chumadan he is, with a handle, without a handle, this is a material object and it CAN somehow be attached to the case ... and minke whales do it regularly. With varying degrees of success, of course, but they will try again and again!
      1. cniza
        cniza 2 March 2021 09: 11
        +2
        They do what we allow them to do, and here is our problem, we prosper, and they act ...
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 2 March 2021 09: 51
          +1
          In general, consider us, on the sidelines ... and the top and other responsible, prosper, in their favor, in the main.
          Now they have appointed one young man, they hope that he will turn out to be a sensible leader, and not a manager / accountant .... we'll see.
          1. cniza
            cniza 2 March 2021 10: 14
            +2
            Young is good if he is not swaddled ...
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 2 March 2021 10: 49
              +1
              The surname is notable, Primakov, but what it actually turns out to be ...
  • 1536
    1536 7 March 2021 12: 37
    0
    In countries whose governments and ruling circles today aspire to NATO, the voice of the people does not matter at all. Moreover, the people will gladly meet the NATO military bases and will house the NATO landsknechts, if only to get money for this and somehow improve their plight of financial situation. The stomach in this case determines the consciousness of those who welcome the arrival of NATO on their territory, the rest of the inhabitants in general to the lantern, what is happening, how far they are from any geopolitical issues. Illusion? Certainly. But who is to blame for the fact that people were not born in Brussels or Paris, but somewhere in Moldova or Lithuania? Someone, once wanted to follow the path of natural selection, destroying, losing their country, called the USSR, and now everyone expects from Russia, in which its citizens themselves have problems above the roof, so that she, attention (!), " attractive to others. "
    But there is a point that no one takes into account, namely, that in Russia no one is expected, who thinks that they should be fed and watered here only because they are trading their own, often primordially Russian territory! Do you want to join NATO? Well, we will pity NATO and those unreasonable who accept others even more unreasonable into this structure. It turns out that let them swagger.
  • Consul
    Consul 10 March 2021 14: 04
    +14
    about the chances of Georgia and Ukraine for admission to NATO

    The chances of these "countries" are very high. Against Russia, NATO is ready to violate its rules of admission to NATO membership.
  • Consul
    Consul 10 March 2021 14: 04
    +21
    Contrary to initial promises not to expand eastward, NATO

    You never know what they promised and to whom. It is common for the West to make promises and not keep them.
  • Consul
    Consul 10 March 2021 14: 05
    +14
    Macedonia, which for the sake of admission to the alliance was forced to go for renaming into North Macedonia.

    Macedonia, like Serbia, has no and had no chance of resisting pressure from NATO. What can they do if they are surrounded by NATO countries and without going to sea? Answer: nothing