"Able to displace the outdated fleet of Soviet armored personnel carriers": opinion on the new Turkish armored personnel carrier

One of the modifications of Otokar ARMA

Last week, the Ministry of Defense of Kazakhstan presented footage of tests of a new 8x8 wheeled armored personnel carrier of Turkish origin, which is expected to enter service with the local army. However, it has a much greater future: "a new combat vehicle is capable of replacing the outdated fleet of Soviet armored personnel carriers, which remains in service with a number of countries around the world."

This opinion is expressed on the pages of the publication 21AAR:

ARMA's biggest advantage for countries looking to replace their old tracked and wheeled armored personnel carriers (such as the BTR-60/70/80) is its 450 hp diesel engine, which provides a top speed of 105 km / h.

As noted, Otokar ARMA is one of the best wheeled armored personnel carriers created by NATO members, while it has a number of advantages in comparison with analogues from France and Germany. First of all, this concerns the buoyancy of an armored vehicle, which allows you to cross water obstacles or go to the coastline when disembarking from a landing craft.

The modular principle of Otokar ARMA makes it possible to create various modifications, depending on the requirements of the military of different countries of the world. For example, the Bahraini Armed Forces purchased ARMA in a 6x6 configuration rather than an 8x8. The UAE's Rabdan infantry fighting vehicle is one of the ARMA variants that has a turret for the Russian BMP-3. The Kazakh modification received a remotely controlled module equipped with a 30 mm 2A42 cannon and a 7.62 mm machine gun. It is possible to install an ATGM, similar to the "Berezhok" complex on modernized Russian infantry fighting vehicles. The level of booking a car depends on the wishes of the customer.

If ARMA succeeds [in Kazakhstan], it will not only historical success for Otokar, but will also open up great opportunities for other Turkish military products in the local market

- the conclusion is made on the pages of the publication.

Some modifications of Otokar ARMA:

Comments

[Graz]

the coffin does not look like a coffin. Well, Russia will keep silent. our eternally correct and concerns are expressed, but China, for example, they obviously will not like it, since the Turks are also climbing with the Uyghur question, but I think the Chinese and their armored personnel carriers would not mind promoting them to the Kazakh market.
By the way, the Kazakhs seemed to have their own development of the BTR barys, which, as for me, in any case, outwardly looked better than this Turkish something.

And what about the Kazakhs there were like joint developments with South Africa, there seemed to be interesting specimens too, has the foreign policy line really changed so?

[bayard]

This indicates the growing influence of Turkey in the post-Soviet space, and now it is accelerated. In Kazakhstan and Central Asia, as a whole, the elites have changed, and these are no longer post-Soviet ... these are already others, brought up in a Pan-Turkist spirit. And the maps of "Great Turan" were not at all casual to draw and show. And Russia was late again. Before the war in Donbass, they were preparing for the creation of a united armed forces of the CSTO in the region in the form of the CSTO corps, for which Russia was supposed to provide weapons, a headquarters was formed ... and then everything was frozen ...
And we have a result.
Especially in Azerbaijan ...
This indicates the quality of the work of the relevant structures and the government in general.
As well as about many other things.
As Clinton said that it would not allow Russia to recreate the USSR under any guise and name, and it turns out - we are not given, and we are not trying ... Commercial interests of interested parties ...
In the textbook struggle between sword and gold, gold wins ... And so empires are not built ... And they are not preserved ...
This requires SOVEREIGNTY.

[Rome]

Why panic? Kazakhs need modern armored personnel carriers, what can we offer them today? wait until we finish the Kurganets? Or so far as the Russian BTR82 to interrupt?
Of course, the contract with Turkey gives + to the influence of the latter, but what choice do the Kazakhs have? We simply have nothing to offer them, but they need an APC, so they are looking for options for themselves.

[bayard]

If you haven't noticed, then I'm not talking about the APC at all.
And does the Kazakhs really burn so much that they need to re-arm themselves with other armored personnel carriers?
The East is a delicate matter, you need to KNOW it.
And for this, not just from books - to immerse yourself in the environment, live, serve ...
I'm talking about the miscalculations of Russia's policy in this direction ...
Is there ANYONE doing this?
Or all the footage in the Middle East and North Africa?

And as for the armored personnel carrier, they could have waited, they could have interrupted the BTR-82A (a good car, but in its class), they could have taken part in the project. Russia has a bunch of armored vehicles of different classes and sizes, if you wanted to be beautiful and modern. And then Kurganets will arrive in time - even though a wheeled tank is on it.

But what is happening is not a military-technical issue, it is pure politics.
For their elite (and the military too) studied in Turkey ...
And England.

And the choice, of course, is theirs ... But the LAND is OURS. Kazakhs there before Kaganovich were not born on the Cossack lands.
The nomadic Kyrgyz sometimes came in to catch the sheep, to exchange the cattle for something useful.
And no "Kazakhs" were found on the lands of the Cossack camp.
Cossacks lived.
Russian Cossacks.
And now, because of Kaganovich's "generosity", Gorbachev's meanness and Yeltsin's foolishness, the Russian lands have been torn away and that looks like they will go either to China or Turkey.
... And "the snow fell again unexpectedly" ... in winter ...
And the Anglo-Saxons, and the Chinese, and the Turks have been dealing with Central Asian issues for a long time and always ... and the state of the Russian Federation?
The British have been raising the elite since the beginning of the 90s.
The Chinese have money, beckon with projects and say that "Kazakhs" (fugitive Dzungars) are also Chinese.
The Turks put pressure on the "Turkic unity" of "Turan" and the unity of faith.
... And what was Russia doing at that time?
Did you build pipelines from the country and come up with new taxes for your population?

And there is very little time left.

[Rome]

How much the Kazakhs need an armored personnel carrier and what, this is their business. We do not have such a machine

Kazakhs know about Dzungars better than Chinese it was because of the Dzungar Khanate that the Kazakhs came to bow to the Russian Empress and asked to be part of the Russian Empire that she protected them from the Dzungars (these are some kind of Mongols).

The importance of territorial proximity, no one has canceled, northern Kazakhstan is very focused on Russia and Astana too. Almaty, in principle, interacts a lot with Russia. Only the south (Shymkent) is far away. China is very important as the supplier of everything! We worked with the Turks in certain areas (cx products and light and food products). Heavy Mash there are foreigners from all over the world
We have some head start and with the growth of our economy our importance grows, but you can't sleep, you are right

It is important there to support the Russian language, broadcasting of Russian channels, and it is important to ensure the movement of the population (tourism, study, business).

[TermNachTer]

And whose engines are in those armored personnel carriers?))) German, Germany stopped supplying military and dual-use products to Turkey. So, if these armored personnel carriers will be released, then only with a pedal drive)))
so, if they push Russia out of there, then in about 50 years, provided that the Turks do not quarrel with the whole world)))

[yehat2]

Quote: bayard

This requires SOVEREIGNTY.

this requires not a strange enticement of Fedorov with the name "sovereignty",
but the motivation of that part of society that is able to solve something and resources.
with resources more or less ok, but with motivation - trouble.
do not distract our tree from the continuous increase in real estate.
In addition, the example of Belarus shows that even with the most loyal neighbor, the Russian leadership is not particularly eager to negotiate.
And the last thing - it is interesting to negotiate with you, if you have active forces and freedom of action, then you are useful. And how is the RF useful? We have a purely defensive doctrine, for the projection of force there are not so many troops, even transports are forced to rent, and even in Syria, help is so-so. So they do not see any benefit from an alliance with the Russian Federation, and therefore they are not in a hurry with agreements.
The diplomats formulated all this extremely cynically and graphically even before the beginning of WWII.
It took about 5 years to change this, and in principle, at first, Putin followed this path, forming the Russian Federation as a partner beneficial to the alliance, but then they scored on geopolitics and completely engaged in cutting the dough. And the events in NK have clearly shown that no special benefit or benefit from friendship with the Russian Federation is expected.

In general, the point is not at all being late, but in the fact that the "elite" has completely neglected the interests of the country.
And I never tire of repeating that this is literally a copy of the historical events before 1905.
Peskov says that RI Nicholas 2 is "our ideal". Well built, congratulations.
Remind me what happened to this Russia literally in 10 years? And this is already starting to repeat itself.

[alexmach]

the appearance of the coffin does not look like a coffin

Does the BTR-60-70-80 look better? Than? Isn't he a coffin?

but China, for example, they obviously won't like it

And China actually has its own analogue in production.

[IL-18]

Quote: Graz

has foreign policy changed so much?

This is how they (Kazakhs) turned their nose in the Turkish direction long ago. On the other hand, opposing a new device to the technology of at least thirty years ago, as it were, immediately prompts potential customers to take a closer look at the proposals from the heirs of the Soviet defense industry.

[Klingon]

Barys is not the same armored personnel carrier on which the module with 57mm is installed?

[Thrifty]

World fashion, to make such high armored mods, which should be in service with the police, or go into battle in the second echelon, otherwise they will be quickly knocked out, due to their high height, which is a disadvantage in battle.

[svp67]

Quote: Thrifty

otherwise they are quickly knocked out, due to their great height

And what does low altitude save from "High Precision Weapons" now? The height of the target no longer plays the role that it played earlier in the issue of protection from enemy shells, but has a beneficial effect on explosion protection

[orionvitt]

Quote: svp67

And what does low altitude save from "High Precision Weapons" now?

Lately, everyone has been praying for the notorious "highly accurate weapon", as for some kind of panacea in battle, which seems to "guarantee" victory in any war. Technological progress is certainly good, but far from everything. From a trained fighter, or a dexterous guerrilla with a conventional RPG, no one is immune.

[svp67]

Quote: orionvitt

From a trained fighter, or a dexterous guerrilla with a conventional RPG, no one is immune.

Yes, it is not insured, but the experience of recent conflicts shows that they are no longer insured against a land mine planted on the road and an air strike from a primitive UAV. And getting into this "carcass" from an RPG is not a fact that it will kill everyone or destroy the armored personnel carrier itself.

[Aerodrome]

Quote: Thrifty

World fashion, to make such high armored mods, which should be in service with the police, or go into battle in the second echelon, otherwise they will be quickly knocked out, due to their high height, which is a disadvantage in battle.

specifically, these "hippos" did not participate in the battles, so judging their fighting qualities is empty. for the police .. yes, it will go. to scare the pensioners, students.

[donavi49]

This is your old priority of threats and methods.

Squat and a small silhouette now does not particularly save (well, perhaps from optical observation). But it generates a lot of risks and problems. Ranging from low resistance when hitting a mine, ending with increased striking armor factors, especially from cumulative ammunition. Where it is so numb.

The wars of recent years (Syria, Iraq, Karabakh, Libya) have shown:
- minimal losses from hand-held anti-tank weapons. There were occasional cases when especially staunch infantry used RPGs (and especially Yugoslavian heavy systems) and achieved at least some result.
- Moderate losses from ATGM, here a low silhouette will not help much.
- below the average loss from other armored vehicles. But again, if you look into the present and the future, then the modern MSA will process at least a high, at least a low silhouette.
- very high, basic, losses from IEDs, minefields.
- high losses from aviation and attack UAVs.

Actually in Russia they are also trending, look what sheds Armata, T-15, Bumernag compared to the T-90, BMP-2/3, BTR-80.

[Dodikson]

do you know the functions of the armored personnel carrier? try to decipher the abbreviation of the armored personnel carrier and find there a hint that they must break through the enemy's defenses

[psiho117]

Quote: Dodikson

find there a hint that they should break through the enemy's defenses

You still have to get to the enemy.

[Dodikson]

that's why the letter B comes before the letters TR.

[TermNachTer]

The Italians also put guns on armored coffers, but so far they have not been tested in combat conditions, so - "I am tormented by vague doubts"))))

[Runway]

Suitable for Kazakhstan with its relief. True, a carcass in the foothills and hummocks how it will behave in winter is a question.
If they drive them along the floodplain of the Ili and Moyinkum, the "holes" of Kurchum and Zaisan and the car will master it, it is quite for the Kazakhs.
The price of the question is interesting.

[OgnennyiKotik]

She is tested for this and passes.

[Runway]

This, judging by the personnel, is the Spassky Training Center (the patrimony of the specialists of the Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Kazakhstan). Closer to the offices of "happy people". This is not a test - this is window dressing. When the Ayaguz-Makanchi route passes (in winter), these are the tests. Or Chundzha-Zharkent in the summer with a float on the Ili.
Such things, bassek.

[bk0010]

Quote: WFP

Suitable for Kazakhstan with its relief.

Buoyancy is important, but why is it in Kazakhstan? You could have taken something more secure.

[Runway]

They don't have many rivers. As well as the bridges across them. And there is only one PMP set for all RK Armed Forces. Spills are not rare in spring. If we assume that the machine will go to specialists and the court ISBR - floating, as an opportunity, is a good parameter.

[TermNachTer]

The question is - with whom is Kazakhstan going to fight? With Uzbekistan or Kyrgyzstan, so they do not have an army, some show-offs for visitors))) with China? after they gave the Chinese URs at the border - it's not even funny))) with Russia? It's even less funny. Total - what do we have at the output?)))

[psiho117]

Quote: TermNachTER

with whom is Kazakhstan going to fight?

Those who do not want to feed their army will inevitably feed someone else's.
Those who wish will immediately be found.

[TermNachTer]

So they themselves have brought those who want to themselves))) when they passed the URs on the border, which the USSR built. Now the border is "bare" and these Turkish designers "crazy hands" will not help them)))

[Runway]

1. The army is an element of statehood. Kazakhs build it according to their understanding.
2. The Uzbeks have quite strong Armed Forces (technically, they are lagging behind the Kazakhs in the Air Force / Air Defense, but the level of BP of the ground forces is high).
3. Kirghiz - everything was sad there initially (there was no special military-technical base). Uzbeks pulled them out of the gemmoroy of Batkent (the Kazakhs formed a consolidated brigade to enter and cover Bishkek and the Chui direction). The 201st was guarding the "browstoy" (there were a lot of strange things at that time).
4. I will not treat your nonsense about URs on the site of the former KVPO (at the present time, GG RK-PRC). The Kazakhs transferred 6 disputed mating areas (45% of the territory contested by the PRC - a little more than Putin undoubtedly gave to V. Beijing).
5. Kazakhs will not fight with the Russian Federation, but they will also be friends at a distance. The distance will grow.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

ARMA's biggest advantage for countries looking to replace their old tracked and wheeled armored personnel carriers (such as the BTR-60/70/80) is its 450 hp diesel engine, which provides a top speed of 105 km / h.

What will change in this life if you write it in a different edition!

ARMA's biggest advantage for countries looking to replace their old tracked and wheeled armored personnel carriers (such as the M-113 and the Stryker) is its 450 hp diesel engine that delivers a top speed of 105 km / h.

The article will sparkle with different colors!

[Reserve buildbat]

It's just that the Kazakhs have neither the M-113 nor the Strikers. But if they received them, there would be a bundle of laudatory articles, where exactly they would appear as a replacement for the BTR-60/70/80

[alexmach]

The striker already has a diesel engine, although it is a little powerful and the speed on the Highway is about the same.

[Nestor Vlakhovski]

Will not play.
"Stryker" is the same age as "Patria" and is not inferior to her in any characteristics, therefore it cannot be called old.
The M113 has long been replaced in the forward units, where the mine threat is urgent. But ballistic protection still copes with threats, no one has been riding the M113 armor until now.

[Andrey Skripkin]

We remember we remember the "quality" of OTOKAR

... Turkish armored car "Scorpion" by "OTOKAR". Automatic transmission, four-wheel drive, the ability to mount a machine gun. Suitable for police operations, but not for war - the crew was destroyed by one (!) Shot from a 12,7 mm Kord sniper rifle. The bullet hit the stern of the armored car, pierced two people at once and came out right through. The uncontrolled car fell into a crevice, the front wheels came off. In this form, it was removed by Russian tankers ...

[kamakama]

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centauro или https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Фреччиа - так вот же он. Почти такой же. Конечно, для детального сравнения нужно более подробное описание, но идейно и конструктивно - дубль

[unhappy]

There are vehicles for the battlefield and support vehicles (including armored ones), this armored personnel carrier is just to provide a type of patrol or hang around at a checkpoint. Swearing is not worth it, it will fulfill its function, and the transport can be comfortable there and the dry closet will be installed))

[Doliva63]

Quote: unhappy

There are vehicles for the battlefield and support vehicles (including armored ones), this armored personnel carrier is just to provide a type of patrol or hang around at a checkpoint. Swearing is not worth it, it will fulfill its function, and the transport can be comfortable there and the dry closet will be installed))

Well, then this crap is not for the army, but for the explosives.

[il-z]

AFV of tomorrow: double comfort - two dry closets in one armored personnel carrier.

[unhappy]

Three
One for men
second for women
the third is for transgender people.

[Dart]

projection height, IMHO, like a pillar in the field .. pardon. high square from all sides ..

[Zaurbek]

The correct conclusion ..... while the Russian Federation itches, the Turks are working.

[TerraSandera]

It is difficult to sell equipment that we do not buy ourselves.

[Zaurbek]

And we don't even make the BTR87 and another BMP3 variant with rear unloading

[TerraSandera]

Soon they will be made two-story. Previously, there were downward trends, to increase invisibility, now they are doing higher for mine protection.

[Klingon]

yeah for sure, there already and not far from walking tanks

[core]

I thought it was interesting, but here's a brochure.

[Pardus]

The Turks are more and more impudent and stubbornly climbing into Central Asia. And we pretend that nothing is happening. Following the supply of arms, political infiltration will begin ...