Military Review

Through revolutions and wars: with Trotsky's pen and Stalinist line

271

On the imperialist massacre



The first essay on military articles of the classics of the third wave (Military prose of Stalin and Trotsky), demanded to be continued, although the topic of war was clearly pressed by the topic of the revolutionary, which is hardly surprising.

After all, almost every revolution became a consequence of the war. This can be said about Russian revolutions without any doubt. And by the beginning of the world war, Trotsky and Stalin were already experienced revolutionaries from among the leaders of Russian Social Democracy.

Stalin is a convinced Bolshevik, the main expert on the national question. Trotsky, on the other hand, rushes about in search of unity not only with the Mensheviks, but also with other leftist parties, and not necessarily Russian ones. After all, the goal of his life is a world revolution.

However, they practically did not put their hand to a new wave of strikes and demonstrations, which threatened to turn into a revolution, but interrupted by the war. Stalin was in exile in the Turukhansk region, by the way, together with Sverdlov (see photo), while Trotsky was in exile.


Only in the spring of 1917 will they be given the opportunity to seriously tackle the revolution by the "temporary" - those who, in fact, delivered Russia from the monarchy. Both were writing at this time. And they wrote a lot. Although the Stalinist works of those years either disappeared or are still almost unknown to anyone.

But it is known for sure that even from the Turukhansk Territory the future leader of the peoples continued organizational work with peripheral party cells. In many ways, this is what in 1917 will provide the Bolsheviks with such powerful support for the national borderlands.

At the same time, Trotsky, who became a popular author during the years of the Balkan Wars, is again a correspondent for Kievskaya Mysl. He had no chance to work in the Russian army, and the French authorities did not give him accreditation on the western front.


Trotsky, who no longer had to hide his characteristic pseudonym "Perot", worked from Switzerland as if he himself were at the front. In his autobiography, he later admits that it was European newspapers that were constantly arriving in Geneva that were saved.

Let's not forget the active secret correspondence with the front-line soldiers. And the invaluable experience of a reporter, and that very lively pen. In the very first essays ("Two Armies", "The Seventh Infantry in the Belgian Epic", etc.) Trotsky unmistakably predicts that the war will drag on.
He absolutely accurately predicts that backward empires, like the Austro-Hungarian, Russian or Ottoman, will most likely lose in the struggle for attrition. Already in the first weeks of the war, Trotsky will make a fatal diagnosis of both the Tsarist and the Kaiser's armies.

He still has time to write the only and brilliant biographical sketch about the British General French, the commander of the expeditionary army. And he will even get close to the national question, which is not very typical for ideologists from among Jews, a priori - internationalists.

His articles "Imperialism and the National Idea", "Nation and Economy", "Around the National Principle" were read in Kiev, Odessa, in two capitals and in the Caucasus. After all, even in them the idea of ​​an impending uprising against tsarism, for which all Russian revolutionaries should be ready, ran like a red thread.

About nations and nationalism


However, the national theme was already considered by the Bolsheviks to be Stalin's domain.

But Trotsky has not yet joined the Leninists. And it did not concern him.

And Koba, who finally adopted the pseudonym Stalin in 1912, was then mainly busy with self-education, correspondence with Lenin, Krupskaya and other Bolsheviks.

Stalin is already a recognized party organizer who managed to draw thousands of members from the outskirts of the empire to the RSDLP (b). And he is a harsh critic of opportunism, no matter who it comes from: even from Plekhanov. As for Trotsky, there are no authorities for Koba. Except for Ulyanov-Lenin.

But it was in exile that Stalin wrote his famous essay "On cultural-national autonomy." He left the Turukhansk region only in 1916. And from Achinsk he managed to get to Petrograd only in March 1917.

During the First World War, Trotsky wrote so much that it was enough for an entire volume of collected works. But he himself later admitted that he had not created any major software projects. The writers (and Trotsky considered himself to be such) called it - exchanged for trifles.

Behind thousands of lines it is not easy to see the future builder and leader of the Red Army. But after all, Lenin and his comrades-in-arms made Trotsky. Although at first they put this brilliant polemicist at the head of the People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs.

This was done out of purely pragmatic considerations, but as if in defiance of the cadet Milyukov and his direct follower in terms of the ability to get along (or rather, grovel in front of the allies) - Kerensky.

As you know, Stalin got the post of People's Commissar for Nationalities in the Leninist Council of People's Commissars. There was no such post in the Provisional Government, which (according to a number of historians), among other things, predetermined the choice of the national outskirts of the fallen Romanov empire in favor of the Bolsheviks.

Moreover, such as Poland and Finland, they immediately granted not autonomy, but de facto independence.

However, the high posts of Stalin and Trotsky were ahead. Since the power that Nicholas II so easily gave up had yet to be won.

About February and dual power


It was with the establishment of a dual power in revolutionary Russia - the Provisional Government and the Soviets of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies, where the Bolsheviks were not yet in the first roles, that the military theme became almost the main one in the works of Trotsky and Stalin.

Again they write a lot and it must be admitted, talented and extremely effective.

Of course, they write together with Lenin and other associates. Trotsky very quickly pulls up to the Bolshevik camp and will lead thousands of Mezhraiontsi - members of the RSDLP.

These were Social Democrats, Marxists, who had not yet decided who they were on the way with: the Bolsheviks or the Mensheviks. In this, Trotsky and Stalin, it can be considered, agreed - he also managed to "Bolshevize" a great many of those vacillating from their seats.

One of the first articles written by Stalin after his return from exile was the article "On the War," where Rodzianko and Guchkov, and along with them, General Kornilov, inherited from him for not even wanting to talk about peace. In mid-March 1917, he reported to the Petrograd Soviet about the situation at the front, and Stalin immediately managed to discern in him a future contender for the Russian Bonaparte.

Trotsky practically in the same days in the United States was fighting for the right to return to his homeland - his own and several other Russian revolutionaries. In farewell, on the eve of boarding the steamer Christianfjord, Trotsky will publish in Harlem River PC a catchy article calling on the Americans

"Overthrow the damned rotten capitalist government."

Through revolutions and wars: with Trotsky's pen and Stalinist line

Trotsky arrived in Petrograd (with the help of Lenin) only in May 1917. But by this time he had managed to gain tremendous popularity in the capital thanks to the outstanding anti-war and anti-government publications in the Russian and foreign press.

One step before power


It is especially important that propagandists from different parties, agitators at the St. Petersburg factories and in the Petrograd garrison, which, due to the influx of storerooms, not only expanded greatly, but also decomposed, worked for Trotsky's authority. It is not surprising that the tsar did not even count on him on the eve of his abdication.

If Trotsky gave a whole volume of his works for the world war, then Stalin's third volume included works of only one year - 1917. The military theme is not the most important among his articles and speeches. And it hardly makes sense to look for classics of military literature among them.

It is more important, in my opinion, that at conferences and congresses of the Bolsheviks, in the absence of Lenin, it is Stalin who reads the reports of the Central Committee, makes reports on the political situation, where it is certainly a question of war and peace.


However, one cannot but recall the August Stalinist attack in the Rabochy Put newspaper on the Social Revolutionaries from Delo Naroda, which was effectively titled On the Revolutionary Front. In response to the criticism of the Bolsheviks for their open readiness to change the power of the Provisional Government to the power of the Soviets, Stalin gives out this truly Leninist:

"Who will win this fight - that's the whole point now."

Although why is it necessarily Leninist? Here it is already quite possible to feel exactly

"Stalinist style".

As, however, in the main thesis of the article:

“We are told about the reasons for the defeat, offering not to repeat the old“ mistakes ”.

But what guarantee is there that "mistakes" are real mistakes and not a "premeditated plan"?

Who can guarantee that after they have “provoked” the surrender of Ternopil, they will not “provoke” the surrender of Riga and Petrograd in order to undermine the prestige of the revolution and then establish the hated old order on its ruins? "

It was both more difficult and simpler for Trotsky in this respect.

He is quickly promoted to the first roles in the Petrosovet - his experience of 1905 is too remembered by many. But Trotsky never stops writing, and most importantly, making speeches.


Lunacharsky, who was truly friends with Trotsky, would later note how

"He is literary in his oratory and orator in his literature."

What is even Trotsky's speech on October 22, 1917 worth?

“The Soviet government will give everything that is in the country to the poor and comfrey.

You, bourgeois, have two fur coats - give one to a soldier who is cold in the trenches.

Do you have warm boots? Stay at home.

The worker needs your boots. "

Almost half of the first part of the third volume of Trotsky's works is formed from the author's public speeches. In general, the works of Trotsky's revolutionary 1917 were never systematized.

But the author himself transformed into the famous “History Russian Revolution ”, or rather, in its second volume.

Stalin in October


We will not repeat here that the uprising against the Provisional Government began, in general, spontaneously. Despite the fact that he was expected from day to day. Yes, it has already been prepared, if not 100 percent, then 95 percent - for sure.


In the assertions that Lenin led the October uprising together with Stalin, there is (albeit scanty), but a grain of truth. After all, it is not for nothing that Stalin on October 24 (even in Lenin's absence) made a report on the political situation at a meeting of the Bolshevik faction at the Second All-Russian Congress of Soviets.

And in the morning of the same day - October 24, the Bolshevik "Rabochy Put" came out with Stalin's article "What do we need?" And there was a call to overthrow Kerensky's cabinet. For which no one accused Koba of treason, as recently Kamenev and Zinoviev. And do not think that you just did not have time.

After that, by and large, there was no time to write to the press to the People's Commissar. Stalin writes the famous "Declaration of the Rights of the Peoples of Russia", and at the same time gives the de facto approval for the independence of Finland, speaking at the congress of Finnish Social Democrats in Helsingfors.

Who would then have guessed what this independence would turn out to be for Soviet Russia and Petrograd-Leningrad. Answering on the same days to "comrades Ukrainians", the Russian People's Commissar makes it clear that the Bolsheviks are not on the path with the bourgeois Rada, and it must be immediately replaced by the Soviet government.

The time of military prose will come very soon for Stalin. But he still manages to define the Bolshevik position on Turkish Armenia, and on the Tatar-Bashkir republic, and even on peace with the Germans. This will be one of the first hard fights with Trotsky. But about it - in the next article.

Trotsky: power itself is coming into our hands


Trotsky, who actually headed the Petrosovet back in 1905, did not just count on, but fought to the death to take power. But then she is by no means

"Lying under my feet"

as he wrote about the Provisional Government years later - in the fall of 1917.

The roll-over with Lenin's articles on the eve of the decisive October days is no less impressive than Stalin's staunch Pro-Leninist position. Trotsky and Stalin together are ready to simply deal with the "traitors" Kamenev and Zinoviev. Although, by and large, in their demarche they revealed a secret, already known to everyone.

Power itself fell into the hands of the Bolsheviks, and besides, the Left SRs and many of the Mensheviks had already taken their side. And in this, by the way, the great merit of Trotsky, who was then ready to cooperate with anyone from the "left". But this turned into a skirmish with the stubborn orthodox Lenin.

The October uprising itself is one of the rare cases when everything went not according to Lenin, but according to Trotsky. On his submission, after Lenin wrote from Spill that

"Procrastination is like death",

the uprising was nevertheless postponed until the beginning of the Second All-Russian Congress of Soviets.

It was Trotsky who wanted to present the congress with the fact of liquidating the "dual power" regime. The delegates themselves to the Second Congress, a qualified majority, as they say now, declared themselves the supreme power in Russia. Not paying any attention to the fact that the congress, in protest against the overthrow of the Kerensky government, left everyone except the Left SRs and Bolsheviks.

However, Lenin nevertheless turned out to be at the head of the new provisional government - the Council of People's Commissars, to whose authority Trotsky was very far. There are historians who are convinced that, among other things, the hatred of the members of the Provisional Government and of Kerensky personally played in favor of Ilyich.

Together with Lenin or instead of Ulyanov?


The threat of arrest, exile and such a timely return are a whole set of whists for Lenin. In addition, Trotsky himself, no matter how power-hungry and not recognizing authorities, seems to have simply bowed to the leader.

Everyone in the Bolshevik Central Committee, even Stalin, understood what a huge role Trotsky played in preparing and carrying out the coup in October, which, in Lenin's way, it was immediately decided to call the socialist revolution. However, judging by the pace at which socialist transformations were launched in Russia, the term was absolutely correct.

Characteristically, Trotsky did not consider himself a talented organizer. But in the Military Revolutionary Committee he relied on such assistants as the same Stalin, Podvoisky, Antonov-Ovseenko, and finally, Efraim Sklyansky, his future deputy in the Revolutionary Military Council of the republic.


This forgotten character is Sklyansky (First after Trotsky), a former regimental doctor, later turned out to be a truly irreplaceable collaborator for Trotsky. Trotsky liked to compare his deputy to Lazar Carnot, who formed 14 armies for the French Revolution. But Sklyansky, rather, looks more like a scrupulous assiduous Berthier - the chief of Napoleon's staff.

By all indications, it was Sklyansky who managed to organize the construction of the Red Army in such a way that even a direct (and not half-hearted, as it turned out in reality) foreign intervention would not help the white movement. Not counting, of course, the Polish campaign. But then the Entente was already too late.

However, Trotsky's candidacy for the post of chairman of the Council of People's Commissars was not even considered. There is some special irony of history in the fact that Trotsky got the post of People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs, which immediately after the overthrow of the monarchy was occupied by the leader of the Cadets Pavel Milyukov, who coined the term "Trotskyism".

Trotsky also did not become the chairman of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee, which formed the government. In this place was Lev Kamenev, which in itself refutes his ultimately inflated subsequently allegedly betrayal on the eve of the October Revolution.

The overly soft and unhurried, albeit scrupulous Kamenev, by the way, was replaced by the energetic Sverdlov just two weeks later. And Trotsky, who was recognized by his comrades-in-arms as a military expert, had to deal with almost the main issue - about peace, having entered into negotiations with the Germans.

Read about this, as well as what Stalin and Trotsky wrote about the Civil War and military development in the Republic of Soviets, in the next essay.

Here it remains only to note that in the October days, Trotsky, like Stalin, was simply forced to write very little to the press - there were enough real worries.
Author:
Photos used:
trouw.nl, newsbee.com, img-fotki.yandex.ru, upload-wikimedia.org, regnum.ru, from the author's archive
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 21 February 2021 04: 01
    +3
    When you read what Trotsky did in the Civil War, you grab your head. The worst enemy of the Russian people and a ghoul of human blood ... and the Mercarder ice ax in the back of his head is a well-deserved reward from all those whom he tortured and shot.
    1. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 21 February 2021 05: 09
      -7
      His opponent Dzhugashvili (Koba, Asian, Stalin) also tortured and shot a lot, but as I see the personality cult flourishes in VO, and what is important, they say and write how good it was under Dzhugashvili, those who never lived with him.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 21 February 2021 05: 19
        +2
        Well, sorry I didn't have a chance to live under Stalin, hi but I had a chance to live under Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Medvedev, and finally Putin ... of them I will remember only Brezhnev with a kind word ... the rest are so-so, well, Putin can still be pulled from his knees for the rest these leaders created a lot of problems for the people and the country. smile
        1. Pessimist22
          Pessimist22 21 February 2021 05: 28
          -4
          Yes, I understand, these leaders created a bunch of problems for the people and only Stalin, a ray of light in the pitch darkness, created all conditions for the people, I constantly read such nonsense here.
          1. Lech from Android.
            Lech from Android. 21 February 2021 05: 44
            +16
            It was Stalin who gave the people faith in a better future, he created a powerful state as an instrument capable of turning the life of an individual. Under Stalin, the country became an industrial state, became a nuclear power and was later able to make a breakthrough in the exploration of Earth's outer space. We still use the Stalinist legacy ... All subsequent leaders of the USSR and later Russia have safely pissed away all the wealth that was collected under Stalin ... and no matter how you smeared Stalin's name, in his deeds he stands head and shoulders above all subsequent leaders of the country .Stalin is the builder of the state. .. after him came the would-be destroyers of the state.
            1. Pessimist22
              Pessimist22 21 February 2021 05: 52
              -6
              It was Stalin who gathered around him associates who later destroyed the USSR?
              1. Lech from Android.
                Lech from Android. 21 February 2021 06: 03
                +6
                This is a misfortune, when there is no continuity of power, when the next leader turns back everything he pleases without understanding the destructive consequences ... This is a misfortune and this problem must be solved by our people.
                1. evgen1221
                  evgen1221 21 February 2021 09: 02
                  -1
                  The trouble is not in the continuity (what's the point in the receiver of the thief, from the same views will be) The problem is in the absence of mechanisms for monitoring the views and requests of the controlled population. Opinion polls have turned into profanity (well, what is the opinion of 10000 out of millions of people). The authorities should clearly know what their people want, and not what the one who brings money to the party's cashier for a new law for a loved one wants.
                  1. aleksejkabanets
                    aleksejkabanets 21 February 2021 12: 41
                    +7
                    Quote: evgen1221
                    The authorities must clearly know what their people want

                    The authorities already clearly know this. Only the authorities and the people have diametrically opposite desires. Because this power is anti-people. She expresses the interests of the Potanins, Chubais, Curls and other "best people".
                  2. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 13: 39
                    +3
                    Quote: evgen1221
                    10000 out of millions of people). The authorities should clearly know what their people want, and not what the one who brings money to the party treasury for the new law for a loved one wants.

                    In general, the authorities know what the people want. The trouble is that the desires of the people come into conflict with the desires of those who put this power, plus with the power's ability to satisfy the desires of the people in a short historical period.
                    1. evgen1221
                      evgen1221 21 February 2021 14: 50
                      +1
                      So I wrote about it. There is no mechanism to convey to the authorities the desires and concerns of the population. Life behind the wheel of a Ferrari is a bit different than that of a minibus drive during rush hour. But there is an axiom - a prolonged ignoring of needs and, in general, a lack of understanding of these needs and their rejection by those in power, always ends with the shortening of the heads of those in power.
                  3. vladcub
                    vladcub 21 February 2021 20: 21
                    +3
                    "opinion polls have turned into profanity" poll poll strife, because, you can formulate the question so that everyone will say yes. For example: “Do you want the country to be a mess?” - the people support the president.
                    Then looking where and who to ask. It's one thing to ask a pensioner, somewhere on the outskirts of Muhosk, and another to ask young people in cities with a population of over one million, and then they shout that the polls are lying
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 21 February 2021 20: 06
                  +4
                  Here, with a continuity of the top ten. The grandfather is that each leader starts to load, that the previous one "is absent." There this and there that, and he will fix it.
                  It can be reported that the predecessor is a ghoul, and he came on foot from God.
                  Or look for rails to put your head on. But while these searches are going on, the people are full of thirteen.
                  PS. The trouble is that people fall for the promises of populists and as history shows: the more they promise: "rivers of milk and jelly banks" the worse.
                  I, like the overwhelming majority, believed in EBN and even voted. It's still a shame. And there were those that abandoned everything: family, work, in order to guard the "people's tribune". I once knew such a woodpecker.
                  1. evgen1221
                    evgen1221 22 February 2021 06: 01
                    +1
                    I agree with you. The population pays little attention to the kept promises of candidates during the elections. Lying all the garaz and as to the case, there are always a million excuses, though this does not prevent personal accounts from replenishing robust, being in power. It would be nice if the people in the elections at least wrote on a piece of paper for each candidate in two columns, what they promised earlier, what they did. The banal counting plus or minus will already be more objective in the choice. And even more often I went out into the streets with a reminder of the need to fulfill the promised.
            2. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 21 February 2021 10: 38
              +12
              Quote: Lech from Android.
              We still use the Stalinist legacy.

              No matter how they treat Stalin, good or bad. But neither can it be good, the part of the people that has already grown under capitalism. But I will say one thing, neither you young, nor we post-war, would never have been born had it not been for J.V. Stalin, and those who were born would have become slaves of the Third Reich.
              And there is no need to exaggerate and debate good or bad Stalin, hundreds of volumes have already been written about this, and they will write more.
              1. ironic
                ironic 21 February 2021 13: 52
                -6
                And many would not have died and would have given the world children and grandchildren who were not born, had it not been for Stalin. And there is no need to oppose it to the horrors of fascist activity. This is one thing and this is another. Flies and cutlets separately.
                1. Sanichsan
                  Sanichsan 28 February 2021 02: 58
                  0
                  Quote: ironic
                  And many would not have died and would have given the world children and grandchildren who were not born, had it not been for Stalin.

                  exactly the opposite. just many did not die, gave birth to children, who, by the way, also did not die thanks to Stalin, received a good education and created a great country! what is the opposite? Nikolashka blew out both the Japanese and the Germans and lost the country? wassat
                  Quote: ironic
                  And there is no need to oppose it to the horrors of fascist activity.

                  why oppose some horrors? under Stalin, the state protected the interests of 95% of the population by providing them with medicine, education and a decent standard of living. under tsarism, the state protected the interests of 5% of the population, condemning the remaining 95% to a real bestial existence. it is obvious to me who is the "father of the people" and who is the "bloody regime" request
                  1. ironic
                    ironic 28 February 2021 13: 11
                    0
                    The surviving relatives of those who did not give the light these very children, thanks to the "father of nations", will never agree with you. And how many we are talking about is not even known for sure, and with a certain resistance, unfortunately, it will not be possible even to rehabilitate all the victims posthumously, but from such fame as the case of doctors, it will not be possible to cleanse the "father of the people" until the end of the days of history, as well as from the preparation of the expulsion of Jews from the European part of the Arctic Circle. sad
                    1. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan 28 February 2021 16: 41
                      +1
                      Quote: ironic
                      The surviving relatives of those who did not give the light these very children, thanks to the "father of nations", will never agree with you.

                      are you talking about the kulaks, landowners and bourgeoisie who held their fellow citizens for slaves? I do not feel an ounce of sympathy for these. but the Soviet government was not so categorical and therefore some descendants remained. even the Crimean Tatars who collaborated with the fascists were not put up against the wall, as they did in civilized countries, but overpowered.
                      Quote: ironic
                      And how many we are talking about is not even known for sure, and with a certain opposition, unfortunately, it will not be possible even to rehabilitate all the victims posthumously.

                      why is it not known? the Soviet regime has everything documented and is now available for study. and "shot without trial" only in the inflamed fantasies of the modern liberal intelligentsia, which takes the figures of repression from the ceiling depending on how the urine hits the head ... like the founder of the "memorial" laughing
                      Quote: ironic
                      but from such notoriety as the case of doctors, it will not be possible to cleanse the "father of the people" until the end of the days of history

                      what is this business? This is the same one in which, on the basis of evidence (namely evidence and not some knocked out confessions), it was established that these doctors were poisoning party leaders? Well, here's the question of who will not be able to clean up, the NKVD who caught these scoundrels, or the creatures who poisoned the country's leadership.
                      Quote: ironic
                      as well as from the preparation of the expulsion of Jews from the European part of the Arctic Circle.

                      with the bloody kings not beguiled? it was the Pale of Settlement in the Russian Empire. a ban on a Jew to hold public office and restrictions on a number of professions. for luring prisoners into a non-Christian religion. oh yes, the sweetest repeat regular Jewish pogroms.
                      but all this is NOT Stalin wink
                      1. ironic
                        ironic 28 February 2021 17: 24
                        0
                        Yes, I'm talking about small and medium-sized businesses and middle and upper-level engineers, thanks to whom mediocrity and rogue did not die of hunger. And the Crimean Tatars needed to arrange a general genocide? Do you know why you think so? And because it means you are a villain. Do you regret that you were born at the wrong time, I suppose?

                        Yes, we know how it was all documented. All the same, after all, my grandmother's cousin was married to a deputy minister in the Stalinist government. No, most are still with the investigation and many even with the court, I would really call it more torture and a trial, respectively. But the revanchists of the Stalinist regime are not yet so urinated into dreams. Where are the dreams of some memorials or liberals to such a scale? They are weak in terms of dreams.

                        Yes, on the basis of false evidence and on the basis of a commissioned investigation. Scoundrels who are trying to present a blood libel in their observance will never be able to clean themselves up. That's for sure. Not a single blood libel was left unanswered, as the apocryphal Haman put his ears on a saucer on Purim, so modern Haman put the 53rd on Purim and will put everything like him in due time. Purim is written on all Aman tsev, until the end of the days of human history, and everyone who decides to justify the Amanes will be justified and their ears on the Purim plate. am Now it will always be so.

                        In general, Jews have always been prohibited from missionary work, and even to this day it is customary to dissuade a non-Jew from converting to Judaism if he is not the seed of Israel, i.e. if he is not from a Jewish father. Only in this case do not discourage.
                        And the trains were already standing near Moscow and at the Kharkov central hub of the Southern Railways, my grandfather (on my father's side), his blessed memory, was a personal witness. My grandmother's cousin (maternal) sister (the one who was married to the deputy minister) called that night from the street phone and warned that it would start soon, but even she does not know exactly when and in order to prepare to survive and change everything valuable acquired for survival. But Purim struck and the ears of the mustachioed Haman struck on a plate. good wink
          2. Destiny
            Destiny 21 February 2021 05: 53
            +16
            Trotsky would not hesitate to send this people into the furnace of the "world revolution." It is scary to imagine what path the revolution would take then and where it would lead Russia. Stalin led the country to industrialization and victory in the Great Patriotic War.
            1. Profiler
              Profiler 21 February 2021 06: 13
              +8
              Only in the spring of 1917 will they be given the opportunity to seriously tackle the revolution by the "temporary" - those who, in fact, delivered Russia from the monarchy.


              In essence, the monarchy destroyed itself, with the hands of those closest to the emperor ...

              The throne of Nicholas II was so precarious that the "temporary" themselves did not have to make much effort to overthrow it.
              In other matters, the "temporary" ones themselves turned out to be even weaker, soon actually giving the power on a platter to the Bolsheviks in such a prepared form that they just had to take it, in fact, "ownerless" and "no man's."

              In fact, at that time the country was "let go," and it is good that in the hands of the Bolsheviks the process of its collapse gradually, hard, painfully, bloody, but died out.
              1. tihonmarine
                tihonmarine 21 February 2021 10: 52
                +3
                Quote: Profiler
                In essence, the monarchy destroyed itself, with the hands of those closest to the emperor ...

                You are right that your own people betrayed the emperor, especially since these were the most senior generals who swore allegiance to the Emperor and the Fatherland. Everyone blames both the tsar and the country for the weakness of the system, that the throne was swinging like a swing, but we all forget one detail.
                It turns out not only in Russia there was such a situation, but also in Germany, Austria-Hungary, Turkey. Well, it could not have occurred to all the peoples of these empires at the same time to turn the swinging throne. And it was not the people who betrayed their emperors, both in Russia and in other empires.
                Very much of all these coups, the ears stick out, and the ears are not even donkey's, but bigger.
              2. ironic
                ironic 21 February 2021 13: 54
                -2
                Your first phrase would be in the head of many to ponder. And also the fact that the tsarist secret police applied their direct hand to the formation of both Bolshevism and Trotskyism.
            2. Poetry
              Poetry 21 February 2021 08: 19
              +2
              There is simply nothing to add to what you have written. I fully share your point of view.
              Alpenstock.
              For someone then this was a shock:
              Trotsky was given an alpenstock on the kumpol!
              Knowledge of dialectics and vocabulary did not help.
              He thought he would live in peace in Mexico?

              He could not help but know: that there will be reckoning,
              Forget about peace if you know Sudoplatov.
              They won't ask, Trotsky thought, from the old co. evil?
              What, he did so much evil with impunity ?!

              Have you ruined so many souls with impunity?
              Our homeland with our own blood, sprinkled in vain?
              He personally arranged a monstrous terror here.
              The bespectacled man was cruel and quick to punish.

              Bronstein spared neither strangers nor his own,
              At times it seemed that he was crazy. He's crazy!
              Trotsky playfully took people's lives.
              This one was definitely not kind. This one was a villain.

              He thought of living as a pensioner in the beds?
              Quietly so, with the guards guys.
              Perhaps he no longer remembered anything like that.
              However, I remembered a friend named "Koba".

              Even a cunning one will always find an approach.
              One sunny day a steamer pulled up.
              A man arrived with an ice ax. Ramon Mercader.
              He was Spanish. In short, a complete Comintern.

              That same Mercader was not without a gift,
              He went into confidence at the distance of a blow ...
              One day, Trotsky will be banged "in the attic"!
              With such a past, be always on the alert.

              They took them to the clinic, where they went. nok and died.
              The revolutionary is bent, number one.
              There is something dearer than silver and gold ...
              For everything that has been done, retribution will come.
            3. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 21 February 2021 09: 39
              -1
              Quote: Destiny
              Trotsky would not hesitate to send this people into the furnace of the "world revolution." It is scary to imagine what path the revolution would take then and where it would lead Russia. Stalin led the country to industrialization and victory in the Great Patriotic War.

              Trotsky said: "Without a revolution in industrially developed countries, socialism in Russia will be a temporary phenomenon." Strictly according to Engels. And he was right.
              The revolution in Germany (by the way, there was the Bavarian Socialist Republic, which was then crushed), France, Italy, Great Britain, and then the United States would have prevented WWII. The big question is, would Russia have lost more in civil wars on foreign territory than in the Second World War.
              1. ironic
                ironic 21 February 2021 13: 57
                -1
                Maybe it would have prevented it, but it would have become more than WWII, undoubtedly both in terms of the size and number of mass graves and in terms of camps.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 21 February 2021 14: 28
                  +5
                  Quote: ironic
                  Maybe it would have prevented it, but it would have become more than WWII, undoubtedly both in terms of the size and number of mass graves and in terms of camps.

                  For the world - of course, for Russia - not a fact
                  1. ironic
                    ironic 21 February 2021 15: 38
                    -2
                    Do you really think that going out into the Atlantic would cost less? Hitler also did not believe that the Blitzkrieg would end with the end of 17 million German lives.
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 21 February 2021 15: 53
                      +1
                      I think that Russians would have died much less
                      1. ironic
                        ironic 21 February 2021 16: 09
                        -3
                        In the expectation of the absence of the need for direct intervention, but this, again from the region, was neat on paper. And what could happen during the intervention, became clearly visible in the first Finnish.
                      2. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 17: 16
                        +5
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        I think that Russians would have died much less

                        Don't tell. If we follow strictly according to Trotsky, then - Russia should play the role of a bundle of brushwood in the fire of the world revolution. So Leiboy was prepared for the death of Russia.
                        So, - a deep bow to Vissarionovich, for sending Leib ... to Alma-Ata, and then even further.
                        I draw your attention - Vissarionovich at first "smashed" his opponents ideologically, and only then, if they did not calm down, was forced to use an "ice pick" so that they would not do nasty things.
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 21 February 2021 18: 39
                        -2
                        If strictly according to Trotsky, then in all spheres of activity of Soviet Russia it was necessary to return qualified tsarist specialists, and not to shoot and expel them, as under Stalin.
                        If strictly according to Trotsky, then there was no need to start the Soviet-Polish War with this failed campaign, in which Stalin played an important role.
                        Strictly according to Trotsky - it was necessary to set a low price for agricultural products and sell agricultural machines to peasants at inflated prices in order to force some of them to migrate to cities (support for industrialization) and unite in collective farms, and not put a bunch of people during dispossession and forced collectivization, as Stalin did it.
                        Therefore, thanks to Vissarionovich can be said mainly for the vigorous loaf, which ensured a peaceful existence up to the present day. For everything else, there are many questions.
                      4. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 21: 11
                        +4
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        If strictly according to Trotsky, then in all spheres of activity of Soviet Russia it was necessary to return qualified tsarist specialists, and not to shoot and expel them, as under Stalin.

                        No one expelled them, they emigrated themselves, and those who remained dirty as they could, not all of them, of course, so they had to be tried and not necessarily shot. Read the memoirs of an American mining engineer, if Littlepage's memory serves, he talks well about the dirty tricks of such specialists. Do you think that Stalin was stupid enough to start industrialization and destroy engineering workers from nothing to do?
                        Quote: Krasnodar

                        If strictly according to Trotsky, then there was no need to start the Soviet-Polish War with this failed campaign, in which Stalin played an important role.

                        Where did you get this? And here is other information -
                        = Trotsky wrote: “That the war ... will end with a workers' revolution in Poland, there can be no doubt about that, ... =
                        Everything fits with his mania for a world revolution.
                        It was Trotsky and Kamenev who persuaded Lenin to launch an offensive against Warsaw. Not Stalin !!!
                        And besides, Stalin was a member. The Military Council under Yegorov, which commanded the front directed, on the one hand, towards Lvov, and on the other hand, towards the Crimea, from which Wrangel, just at that time, began an offensive. In the days of the defeat of Tukhachevsky, Stalin formed the 2nd Cavalry, inspected the troops opposing Wrangel, the Azov flotilla, etc.
                        Quote: Krasnodar

                        Strictly according to Trotsky - it was necessary to set a low price for agricultural products and sell agricultural machines to peasants at inflated prices in order to force

                        This is not according to Trotsky. This is according to Chayanov. As you can imagine, the peasants, having scratched their turnips, decide to unite to buy EXPENSIVE agricultural machinery and with its help. to cultivate their allotments of land? Are you joking like that, together with Trotsky and Chayanov?
                      5. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 21 February 2021 21: 26
                        0
                        1) Was the pontus to the remaining tsarist specialists dirty? )) They, remaining in Russia, tried to feed their family, and not engage in sabotage. As for Stalin's mental abilities, you can't call it stupid, but it was June 22nd.
                        2)
                        The Polish working class did not want and does not want war. The Polish peasantry received only crumbs from the new regime, from the regime of Piłsudski and his allies, the gentry, or, rather, received only a promise to give crumbs. It cannot stand for this regime for a long time, it cannot strive for a war that will bring it aggravation of state taxes, and if the war drags on, then complete impoverishment, complete exhaustion.

                        These are his words in the original
                        Stalin was in favor of striking Poland, being a member of the Revolutionary Military Council
                        3) No, the peasants could live on a collective farm with general rights to the means of production hi
                      6. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 22: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        1) Was the pontus to the remaining tsarist specialists dirty?

                        And you want to say that the word - sabotage, appeared from scratch? Read Littlepage. He is not in any way a supporter of the Bolsheviks, but he was an honest engineer and came to earn money. He seemed to be an inspector in non-ferrous metallurgy. I traveled to factories, adjusted production. He returned to the USA and wrote a book. And he shows by examples the sabotage of "tsarist engineers"
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Stalin's abilities cannot be called stupid, but it was June 22.

                        And what happened on June 22, if not a secret?
                        Quote: Krasnodar

                        Stalin was in favor of striking Poland, being a member of the Revolutionary Military Council

                        AND? Lenin did not mind either. AND?
                        Quote: Krasnodar

                        3) No, the peasants could live on a collective farm with general rights to the means of production

                        Something I did not understand this passage. What do you mean by the words - "general rights to the means of production on the collective farm"?
                      7. ironic
                        ironic 23 February 2021 21: 32
                        -1
                        On June 22nd, the defeat of the troops standing ready to attack, but not defending, followed. The 9th Army was a prime example. The experience of this defeat was taken into account and repeated in a reduced copy with correction for terrain and equipment by the Israeli General Staff in the Six Day War.
                      8. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 00: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: ironic

                        On June 22nd, the defeat of the troops standing ready to attack, but not defending, followed.

                        What are you smoking? Stop immediately - brain-damaging.
                      9. ironic
                        ironic 24 February 2021 15: 58
                        0
                        This is what the strategists smoked, I don't know. I do not smoke.
                      10. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 21: 38
                        0
                        Quote: ironic
                        This is what the strategists smoked, I don't know. I do not smoke.

                        It means that your brain is being poisoned by someone who is smoking bad nearby.
                      11. ironic
                        ironic 25 February 2021 13: 58
                        0
                        There is no need to multiply entities without reason, this will not lead to an improvement in the result.
              2. ironic
                ironic 23 February 2021 21: 35
                -1
                The sabotage appeared not on an empty one, but was used where it was ordered to use, and not just where it took place.
              3. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 00: 27
                +2
                Quote: ironic
                The sabotage appeared not on an empty one, but was used where it was ordered to use, and not just where it took place.

                And you know this for certain. Who ordered, when ordered, for what purpose ordered?
                How can this practically be ordered to prosecutors, judges, investigators, lawyers, people's assessors?
              4. ironic
                ironic 24 February 2021 15: 56
                0
                I know what has affected my family. How you can order the investigator / judge is not even a question. This is being done even today and not only here.
              5. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 21: 41
                0
                Quote: ironic
                the investigator / judge is not even a question. This is being done even today and not only here.

                Yes, it is possible locally. But it is almost impossible to do this from above across the country. Don't kid yourself. Or, more likely, don't let yourself be fooled.
              6. ironic
                ironic 25 February 2021 13: 53
                0
                This is not only possible but is being done even now in different countries, including developed ones. This is exactly what you don't need to be deceived.
    2. boris epstein
      boris epstein 22 February 2021 18: 23
      +4
      There was such an organization, the South Russian Center. Its leaders were former owners of plants and factories who emigrated to Europe - Ryabushinsky, Putilov, Obukhov ... And they were sponsored by the American millionaire (now an analogue of a billionaire) Henry Deterding. So this organization, with the hands of the remaining engineers and technicians, was engaged in technological sabotage. After the launch of the new Mariupol metallurgical plant "Azovstal" built in the USSR, blast furnaces were put on, twisting rags into the hot blast squeegees. Or they rearranged the decimal point when calculating an explosive charge for coal mining in the city of Shakhty, Rostov Region, as a result of which people died and the mine was temporarily stopped. There were Aleksandra Koreiko who redirected and robbed trains with food, raw materials, equipment. This is from the same opera. - after all, they also received information from the South Russian Center. And there were a lot of such acts of sabotage until their own Soviet engineering cadres grew and the Cheka defeated all this on the territory of the USSR. Example-Shakhty business.
      And there were other specialists who recognized the Soviet power. And no one repressed them. It was they who, on the instructions of Lenin, developed the GOELRO plan, it was they who built the first hydroelectric power station-Volkhovskaya.
    3. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 22 February 2021 19: 13
      +1
      Thanks for the info, didn't know
    4. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 00: 32
      +1
      Quote: Krasnodar
      Thanks for the info, didn't know

      How can you not know? The "Shakhty case" is one of thousands of cases of this kind. It was simply best known by the media.
    5. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 24 February 2021 09: 12
      0
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Quote: Krasnodar
      Thanks for the info, didn't know

      How can you not know? The "Shakhty case" is one of thousands of cases of this kind. It was simply best known by the media.

      Because I was convinced that "sabotage" was a propaganda cliché of the time hi
    6. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 10: 44
      0
      Quote: Krasnodar

      Because I was convinced that "sabotage" was a propaganda cliché of the time

      And I knew it was, but I was shocked by its scale after reading Littlepage's memoirs.
    7. ironic
      ironic 24 February 2021 16: 19
      0
      Well, there is a lot in these memoirs. wink
  2. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 21: 25
    +4
    Do you have any idea how the land was actually distributed? First of all, plots of land have different fertility. Therefore, the fertile land was divided among all the applicants, then they moved to less fertile and also divided, etc. As a result, one private owner had several pieces of land in different directions. And how could they buy a tractor together? They could and could buy, only understanding what would happen in this case - eternal quarrels, would not allow them to go for it.
    Everything else is from the evil one. Neither Chayanov nor Trotsky understood anything about agricultural production.
    Yes, Stalin did not want forced collectivization, but he was forced by the kulaks, who began to dictate the prices of bread. Receiving goods from the city at fixed state prices, they set out to sell bread at their own. And this at a time when the city did not have enough bread.
  3. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 21 February 2021 21: 31
    +1
    Duc in Germany and Israel there are still forms of common economy, where the equipment is common, the land is private
    On a collective farm, this principle would be like
    The whole territory is just processed
  4. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 22: 13
    +2
    Quote: Krasnodar
    On a collective farm, this principle would be like

    No offence. You have no idea about private land use. What is it like? Here are 10 plots of land and 10 owners. And they have a common technique. The top view of the field is a patchwork quilt. And so one decided to sow wheat on his site, another to plant potatoes, etc.
    Planting time is different, land preparation time is different. And, in order to enter one section, you need to drive through another section. Some unsolvable problems.
    The collective farm solved all these problems.
  5. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 21 February 2021 22: 24
    0
    I can imagine - my father-in-law has 7000 hectares)).
    So they will decide among themselves what to sow according to the principle of profitability
  6. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 22: 51
    +1
    Quote: Krasnodar

    So they will decide among themselves what to sow according to the principle of profitability

    Isn't it funny yourself? With any decision, there will always be offended and it will spill out sometime.
    Quote: Krasnodar
    I can imagine - my father-in-law has 7000 hectares)).

    How many hectares of land do you think a private owner had in 22?
    I give a hint - how much could he handle it himself with the help of a horse per season? He could not, say, plow all summer. You can plow a field for grain in a strictly defined and limited time.
    Communal land use in Russia, destroyed by Stolypin, was precisely based on the number of plowmen in the family, not eaters. They allotted the appropriate land. Those. how much the family can cultivate the land, not how much it wants.
  7. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 21 February 2021 23: 22
    0
    1) Well, Germans and Jews somehow agree laughing
    2) Yes, it is clear, but there is always an option to agree. If people are adequate
  8. Sergej1972
    Sergej1972 23 February 2021 14: 59
    +1
    Stolypin did not completely destroy communal land ownership. In most redistribution communities (there were those in which they refused redistribution by a majority of votes), during redistribution, land was distributed according to the number of male souls in the family. Women were either not taken into account at all (more often), or (less often), the share of women was one third or a quarter of the share of men.
  9. ironic
    ironic 23 February 2021 21: 43
    -1
    This is probably why in Israel, almost all Kibbutzim practically went bankrupt, and those of them that became millionaires went either into a narrow-sector, which turned out to be very profitable, activity, or with might and main participate in a completely capitalist approach to the labor market and to the use of land (including renting her to others for a variety of purposes) outside and only inside they preserve the structure of the commune.
  10. ironic
    ironic 21 February 2021 19: 24
    -2
    Strictly according to Trotsky, destruction was prepared for world capitalism, i.e. behind Russia, a fire was supposed to cover the whole world, with a result comparable to the use of tactical nuclear weapons, and not in one place, but in many. And the activities of Mr. Stalin are comparable to the use of tactical nuclear weapons, only in one place, at home.
  11. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 23 February 2021 20: 14
    0
    Quote: ironic
    Strictly according to Trotsky, death was prepared for world capitalism,

    And Poland confirmed Trotsky's "correctness". wassat
  12. ironic
    ironic 23 February 2021 21: 23
    -1
    If you mean today's Poland, then I would choose to perish so rather than wait for a bright future with a Soviet result. wink
  13. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 00: 20
    0
    Quote: ironic
    If you mean today's Poland,

    What does modern Poland have to do with it? You said yourself -
    Quote: ironic
    Strictly according to Trotsky, death was prepared for world capitalism,

    The world revolution, which Trotsky dreamed of, was to flare up in Poland, where Trotsky sent troops. And Poland showed all the perniciousness of Trotsky's ideas by defeating Tukhachevsky. Now it is clear?
  14. ironic
    ironic 24 February 2021 16: 01
    0
    According to the plans of the tsarist secret police, the world revolution was supposed to begin at the enemy, in Germany, and where Trotsky later conceived it, this is precisely the consequences of the failure of the plans of the roles assigned to both the Bolsheviks and Trotsky.
  15. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 21: 35
    0
    Quote: ironic
    According to the plans of the tsarist secret police, the world revolution was supposed to begin at the enemy, in Germany, and where Trotsky later conceived it, this is precisely the consequences of the failure of the plans of the roles assigned to both the Bolsheviks and Trotsky.

    Who taught you this nonsense?
  16. ironic
    ironic 25 February 2021 14: 01
    0
    A personal witness and heroic fighter against these events, who was imprisoned for this both under the tsar and under the Bolsheviks, now the deceased, 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe. Just do not classify me as a Hosid because of this, I am not a Hosid.
  17. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 25 February 2021 16: 09
    0
    Quote: ironic
    Just do not classify me as a Hosid because of this, I am not a Hosid.

    Well, I will not classify you among the Hasids.
    But actually I was crazy about -
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    According to the plans of the tsarist secret police, the world revolution was to begin at the enemy, in Germany,

    Quote: ironic
    Personal witness and heroic fighter
    fought with the tsarist secret police planning to start a world revolution in Germany?
    Therefore, I could not find words other than
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Who taught you this nonsense?
  18. ironic
    ironic 25 February 2021 21: 50
    0
    According to tradition, the Hoshids call themselves with the Yiddish transcription Hoshids.
    Naturally, there were two tasks - to force the Russian-speaking Jews to destroy themselves on their own and also to stir up Germany, and then the remnants would fall. Therefore, Trotsky is just Ben Laden's secret police, with the same result, only in November, instead of September .. What the rabbi was talking and writing about back then, forbidding Jews to enter into disputes with him and his followers, especially his students.
  • Obliterator
    Obliterator 21 February 2021 14: 13
    +4
    Quote: Krasnodar
    The big question is, would Russia have lost more in civil wars on foreign territory than in the Second World War.

    There is no question here. In civil wars abroad, a maximum of volunteers would perish, who are not particularly pity. And in the Second World War, millions of civilians were killed or driven into slavery, the western part of Russia was practically demolished to zero.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 21 February 2021 14: 29
      +2
      Exactly
      1. ironic
        ironic 21 February 2021 15: 40
        -2
        I'm not sure how completely, but the fidelity of this thesis was not confirmed in the same Spain.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 21 February 2021 15: 55
          +2
          Quote: ironic
          I'm not sure how completely, but the fidelity of this thesis was not confirmed in the same Spain.

          Quote: ironic
          It was foldable on paper ...

          And imagine what is happening in parallel with Spain (not a developed industrial country) in Germany, France, Italy, Great Britain and the States at the same time? The likelihood of success?
          1. ironic
            ironic 21 February 2021 16: 07
            -2
            It turned out to be weak even in Spain with not weak help, it turned out to be even more scanty in the developed capital countries. An attempt later with the States was crushed by McCarthyism like bedbugs. Conclusions about the theoretical prospects of the world revolution without direct intervention - the complete failure of the plans.
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 21 February 2021 16: 19
            +1
            So everything has its time)). After WWI, especially in 1929, there was every chance of success.
          3. Obliterator
            Obliterator 21 February 2021 17: 02
            +3
            Quote: Krasnodar
            After WWI, especially in 1929, there was every chance of success.

            Rather during WWI. In Russia, the Provisional Government, dancing to the tune of the Soviets, itself defeated and disintegrated the army opposition, which later organized the frail White movement. And then the temporary workers themselves were swept away by the Bolsheviks without any problems. In Germany, the front-line soldiers who returned after the end of the war were sharply anti-communist. They formed Freikors, and with the support of the government, they brutally suppressed all revolutionary actions.
          4. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 21 February 2021 18: 18
            +2
            Upon the arrival of the Americans on the Western Front, the Gauls and Britons had a certain euphoria. And in 1929 everything went downhill hi
        2. ironic
          ironic 21 February 2021 19: 30
          -2
          So it seemed to Trotsky, but there is no more compelling argument than practice. And she didn’t know. And not a man of genius, the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe predicted this both the scale of the tragedy and its result, but could not convince, but Trotsky did. The 7th and last Rebbe in the dynasty took into account the failure of his father-in-law and became the most convincing organizer and orator in Jewish religious history.
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 17: 18
      +2
      Quote: Krasnodar
      Probability of success?

      Fortune telling on coffee grounds.
    3. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 21 February 2021 18: 19
      +1
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Quote: Krasnodar
      Probability of success?

      Fortune telling on coffee grounds.

      Of course, but there were more chances than on the periphery of Western Europe
  • ironic
    ironic 21 February 2021 15: 39
    -2
    It was foldable on paper ...
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 13: 33
    +1
    Quote: Pessimist22
    Stalin created all conditions for the people,

    Is not it so? Was Soviet science created by itself? Education, medicine, industry, did everything happen by itself? Or under his leadership?
    1. ironic
      ironic 21 February 2021 13: 57
      -2
      More contrary to his leadership.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 17: 19
        +2
        Quote: ironic
        More contrary to his leadership.

        Is everything happening now, in spite of Putin? lol
        1. ironic
          ironic 21 February 2021 19: 16
          -1
          No, I would not say. But here a slightly different situation also takes place. History does not repeat itself. wink Philoso's thesis about the repetition of a tragedy with a farce sounds beautiful, but does not correspond to statistical methods of analysis.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 21: 29
            +2
            Quote: ironic
            No, I would not say.

            Come on. Everything significant goes through his signature.
            But before the war, not everything went through the signature of Stalin.
            1. ironic
              ironic 21 February 2021 22: 27
              -1
              Well, as I say, not really. I mean, not quite contrary to it. And from some things, shoulder straps are clearly sticking out. And not quite fighting.
  • Bar1
    Bar1 21 February 2021 09: 08
    -1
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    of them, I will remember only Brezhnev with a kind word ...


    remember under what ruler was the collapse of the Soviet computing industry, the abandonment of their developments and the transition to the American AIBIEM standards? It was under Brezhnev.
    Under what secretary general was there a collusion with the Americans when the disgusting lunar American scam and the rejection of its own lunar program happened? Under Brezhnev.
    Under what general secretary did the GLOBAL deficit in the country begin, when
    - there was no meat
    - there was no sausage
    - there were no decent clothes in abundance
    - there were no decent shoes, the same
    - there were no household appliances in abundance
    - there were no carpets
    -there was no crystal
    - there were no cars for sale.
    There was nothing, but what happened was a disgusting deficit and the roots of this case lead to Brezhnev.
    Moreover, this was not the case everywhere, but for example in Ukraine it was more or less good with the supply, so the Ukrainians so arrogantly said, "that the Muscovites have consumed our fat" and were mainly for separation from the USSR. it was a THOUGHTED policy.
    In general, I get the impression that the USSR is a project, some kind of the collapse of Russian society.
    1. Vlad world
      Vlad world 21 February 2021 09: 44
      +2
      The USSR was created by outspoken russophobes, Lenin, Trotsky and others. And the USSR lived at the expense of the Russians. And they got the Russians drunk. So your impression is correct.
      1. ironic
        ironic 21 February 2021 14: 00
        -5
        Don't you consider damage to other nations? Or only the titular nation counts?
        1. Vlad world
          Vlad world 21 February 2021 16: 10
          +3
          What damage to other nations and how.
          Since 23, tens of millions of gold rubles from the Russian budget went to other republics and other nations. In the USSR, 30% of Russia's income went to feed other republics, other nations. Or you will consider the damage during the Formation of Soviet power so the Russians suffered significantly more damage than any others.
          1. ironic
            ironic 21 February 2021 16: 19
            -1
            Significantly larger, as the most numerous nation in Russia, yes. And proportional suffered everything and not even proportional too. Everyone got it to varying degrees. Demographics from the coup and the subsequent civil war and repression in its process are estimated at very approximately 25 million. people and are practically comparable to the victims in WWII. And I'm just talking about the victims.
            Do you think that only the Russians suffered?
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 21 February 2021 22: 34
              +2
              Quote: ironic
              Do you think that only the Russians suffered?


              I think that the Russians were the first to suffer.
              1. ironic
                ironic 21 February 2021 23: 35
                -3
                By number, yes. First of all, I'm not sure. The Russians were not the first in line, but they fell under the distribution en masse, yes.
        2. Vlad world
          Vlad world 21 February 2021 16: 32
          +3
          What damage and what nations. In 23, a fund was created that received tens of millions of gold rubles from the Russian budget and was spent only on other republics (the Caucasus and others). In the USSR, after the war, 30% of Russia's income went to feed the republics. Apart from Russia (sometimes Belarus), not a single republic paid to the budget of the USSR. If you are talking about the "damage" during the formation of Soviet power, the Russians suffered much more than others.
          1. ironic
            ironic 21 February 2021 16: 45
            -3
            What are you spamming? Why write the same thing twice? Like in a joke? - I don’t repeat myself, I don’t repeat myself, and I don’t embrace you twice, twice? And after the war, neither Ukrainian agriculture, nor heavy industry, nor the Caspian oil of Azerbaijan, nor high-quality Kazakh wheat, and it is possible to continue further across the republics, did not make up the generalized wealth of the USSR? I hate to repeat myself, but did you compare the number of Russians and the number of other peoples? In percentage terms, was the damage checked? I will give an example that is close to me personally. In tsarist Russia lived> 4 million. Jews. Before WWII, the population of the USSR was ~ 2.5 million. Attention to the question, where did the rest go?
            1. Vlad world
              Vlad world 21 February 2021 17: 55
              +3
              1- Sometimes you have to write twice - disappear. Sometimes one passes twice - something is buggy.
              2 - There is no need for demagoguery about Baku oil and Kazakh wheat. Read which republics were transferred to the budget of the USSR and how much.
              3 - So for you 1 million of yours is more important Significantly than 20-30 million Russians. How familiar. Of yours, up to 80% of the leadership of the Repressive organs consisted of the executioners.
              And where did they go - some of them signed up for the Ukrainians (it was profitable), some of them when they suddenly became Russian. A significant part remained in Poland. If you do not know, then a significant part (overwhelming) of yours in tsarist Russia lived in Ukraine in the western part. Lviv, for example.
              1. ironic
                ironic 21 February 2021 18: 48
                -2
                1- it happens, but why repeat the same phrases?
                2 - it depends on who you read, the demagogy that only the RSFSR and the BSSR invested, and the rest consumed has already set the teeth on edge.
                3- During the period of the revolution and civil war, it is estimated that only about 25 million died. Where they turned out to be only Russian, I do not understand, but you see others are not interested at all, a familiar picture. I have not argued that someone is more important, I gave an example. These are your personal speculations about the importance of human lives by nationality, since you have thought about this, then these are your thoughts, not mine.
                Those. According to you, they are engaged in the history of the victims of the Russians, this is a sacred matter, while others either rewrote or faded, or even in Poland, although they fled from Poland to Western Ukraine, hence the very part appeared, but the one I quoted
                the number already takes it into account, but you don't have enough time to know, not the Russians. Once again, I just gave one example, and in response you clearly demonstrated great-power chauvinism. From this it is just very recognizable. 80% of the leadership of the repressive bodies were representatives of more numerous nationalities, and the brightly lit, at first, Jewish personalities, very quickly turned out to be repressed themselves and continued so successfully without them.
                1. Vlad world
                  Vlad world 21 February 2021 22: 45
                  0
                  1 -Don't want to believe facts - your business. There is a proverb about such. Yes, run to complain.
                  2 -Yes, I have great-power chauvinism. I don’t mind.
                  And you have small-town Nazism. Seasoned with nothing but lies.
                2. ironic
                  ironic 21 February 2021 23: 32
                  -4
                  1-These are not facts and I am used not to believe, but to know. Control yourself when you argue.
                  2- This is not boasted. Normal people will keep you at a distance with this message.
                  Small-town is a compliment. I have great respect for the history of the town. But as for Nazism - you are also a libelist on top of everything else. Well, you don't disdain twice about lying, your own and the one that I lie, but it doesn't bother you.
            2. Sergej1972
              Sergej1972 23 February 2021 15: 04
              +1
              Lviv, in fact, was not part of the Republic of Ingushetia, it was a city within Austria-Hungary, the center of Korolnevstvo Lodomeria and Galicia within Austria (Cisleitania).
              1. Vlad world
                Vlad world 23 February 2021 17: 15
                +1
                Yes, a little wrong. I forgot. Until 14 was not part of the RI.
                I just read an analysis of the percentage of Lviv once. With its high Jewish content and how it has changed over time.
                But Poland was part of the Republic of Ingushetia, and there the Jews could be said to be off scale. And they stayed there. And then there are accusations of the "Holocaust" of the WWI, revolution and civil times.
          2. Sergej1972
            Sergej1972 23 February 2021 15: 02
            +1
            The majority became citizens of independent Poland.
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 21 February 2021 14: 31
      0
      Quote: Vlad-world
      The USSR was created by outspoken russophobes, Lenin, Trotsky and others. And the USSR lived at the expense of the Russians. And they got the Russians drunk. So your impression is correct.

      Russians were drunk for a long time. "Merry drink in Russia." (C)
      1. Vlad world
        Vlad world 21 February 2021 16: 40
        +2
        Actually, you need to know the history and not repeat the myths.
        This text is pulled from the text about Tryzna (feasts after the funeral). After the funeral, it was allowed to drink alcohol - to have fun (to have a funeral feast). And try to brew beer without a Permit - such fines will be imposed.
        For a start, read Medinsky about myths.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 21 February 2021 16: 44
          -2
          And Starikov about the imminent collapse of the West? laughing
          1. Vlad world
            Vlad world 21 February 2021 17: 17
            +3
            I didn’t seem to write about the imminent collapse of Starikov — I didn’t come across it. And fast is like - and if by historical standards, then oh. And so about "abroad" and other enemies, he joins with other sources.
            But about the internal national question - he is tough.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 21 February 2021 18: 23
              -2
              About drunkenness:
              Nobody soldered anyone. They always got drunk. And not only Russians. And that was not the problem.
              Medinsky - read myths about the Great Patriotic War. Cheto drew on new little things, but did not take it as serious reading. Although he writes well.
              By historical standards, it is clear that oh laughing About Starikov, I figuratively - I put him ALMOST on the same level with Medinsky.
              1. Vlad world
                Vlad world 21 February 2021 22: 39
                0
                Your-always-it's like-everyone drinks-everyone steals-or-they say they milk chickens in Moscow. (how many I live have never seen). Read the myths about drunkenness, about the prison of nations, about laziness.
                But I haven't read myths about the Second World War. I have my own opinion on the reasons for the defeat of 41 years.
                Well, I watch Starikov from his first books. When he was still playing with his trade union. At one of the meetings I asked a question and having received an answer he, as a politician caring for Russia for me, ended.
                And as a writer - a publicist exposing the real sins and actions of the collective West.
              2. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 21 February 2021 23: 20
                0
                Why read that?
                Drunkenness is like everywhere else in the Nordic countries. In Greenland, Finland, etc.
                The prison of peoples - it was problematic for Jews to leave until the end of the 80s, the rest could only go on a tour to the capitalist country, leaving their family in the USSR.
                About laziness - fairy tales. I already know that.
                That's about exposing the collective West, I treat it with irony)).
              3. Vlad world
                Vlad world 22 February 2021 00: 57
                +1
                1 - Prison of Nations - this expression was introduced by the Bolsheviks about tsarist Russia. Appointing the extreme Russians. To cover your own.
                2 - About the general drunkenness in Russia is a lie of Western liberals supported by the Bolsheviks. In order to hide the party and government's own policy of soldering Russia. How they drink in others I know a little and this is their business. I don't care.
                3 - What history interests you.
                You can -Morozova. A former populist, he was sitting alone and wrote about the "great" history of China. Closer to dinner I'll name one more. Interesting. I don't want to interfere with sleep.
              4. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 22 February 2021 02: 44
                +1
                1) In this sense - well, except for the Pale of Settlement, I have nothing to remember
                2) Soldering Russia? )) Well, except for the establishment of a state monopoly on the sale of vodka and Stalin's speech on this matter, I have nothing to remember
                3) On the history of tsarist Russia? Witte's economic reforms
              5. Vlad world
                Vlad world 22 February 2021 09: 47
                +2
                You can start. Sergeevich - a lecture on the history of Russian Law. There are interesting points.
                Lesnoy, he is good at dissecting supporters of the Normans.
                Alekseeva - Ivan's Code of Laws 3, Campaigns of the Russian troops under Ivan 3. There are interesting moments.
                Petukhov like History of the Slavs. I don't remember exactly.
                There are many more, but all in boxes - ready to move.
  • Baloo
    Baloo 21 February 2021 10: 56
    +3
    Quote: Bar1
    There was nothing, but what happened was a disgusting deficit and the roots of this case lead to Brezhnev.

    Yes, not quite so. The scarcity was created artificially by the traders. For example, in one pharmacy there is only one drug for pull, on a call, in another another, and so on in everything. I remember an article about this in one of the central newspapers. I also remember others: the Eliseevsky store case, the Medunovo case, the Cotton business, etc.
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 21 February 2021 11: 18
      +2
      Quote: Balu
      The scarcity was created artificially by the traders.


      what "hucksters"? You don't need to lie. Then EVERYTHING was state and food and medicine.
      And everywhere there were Bolshevik OFFICIALS, who distributed everything according to incomprehensible signs: the Baltic states, Ukraine, EVERYTHING, Russia, Siberia, hell, and so it was.
      It was this communist state and its party that were the main creator and distributor of scarcity.
      1. Baloo
        Baloo 21 February 2021 11: 20
        0
        Quote: Bar1
        what "hucksters"? You don't need to lie. Then EVERYTHING was state and food and medicine

        Read at least the literature or the truth of those times, young man.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 21 February 2021 11: 23
          +2
          Quote: Balu
          Read at least the literature or the truth of those times, young man.


          uncle, I am 57 years old and I remember very well the Brezhnev and post-modern times.
          1. Baloo
            Baloo 21 February 2021 11: 24
            0
            Quote: Bar1
            Quote: Balu
            Read at least the literature or the truth of those times, young man.


            uncle, I am 57 years old and I remember very well the Brezhnev and post-modern times.

            read, read. Reading develops thinking.
            1. ironic
              ironic 21 February 2021 14: 01
              -1
              There is also such reading, which was originally written to kill thinking.
              1. Baloo
                Baloo 21 February 2021 14: 05
                0
                Quote: ironic
                There is also such reading, which was originally written to kill thinking.

                Thoughtful demagoguery.
              2. ironic
                ironic 21 February 2021 14: 23
                -2
                Well, your thoughtful demagoguery, respectively.
              3. Baloo
                Baloo 21 February 2021 14: 36
                -3
                Quote: ironic
                Well, your thoughtful demagoguery, respectively.

                How boring you are. From the sect of witnesses to the wrong? wassat
              4. ironic
                ironic 21 February 2021 14: 42
                -1
                How sad you are. Do you have a Bulk Idea Deficiency Syndrome? request
    2. silberwolf88
      silberwolf88 21 February 2021 21: 46
      +1
      perhaps you remember BUT not everything ... Brezhnev froze the collapse launched by Khrushchev ... the rest were consequences ... in the 60s and early 70s they lived difficult ... they worked a lot BUT lived with dignity and there were enough goods without frills ... the era of cheating deficits (but not everywhere, of course) this is already the end of the 70s and the beginning of the 80s ... then Gorbachev's bacchanalia ...
  • depressant
    depressant 21 February 2021 13: 30
    +5
    ... the Eliseevsky store business, the Medunovo business, the Cotton business, etc.

    This also includes the case of the "Ocean" store and the execution, by court order, of the director of a butcher shop located not far from the Japanese Garden, all in Sochi.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 21 February 2021 15: 17
      +2
      Quote: depressant
      This also includes the case of the "Ocean" store and the execution by a court verdict of the director of a butcher shop located not far from the Japanese Garden, all in Sochi

      What you wrote is just no more than 5% of what was in reality. But in reality, the Ocean company was associated with trade and industrial enterprises, and the top of the country. This is one of the very
      few firms (even ministries) had direct access to foreign countries.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 21 February 2021 11: 00
    +4
    Quote: Bar1
    Under what general secretary did the GLOBAL deficit in the country begin, when
    - there was no meat
    - there was no sausage
    - there were no decent clothes in abundance
    - there were no decent shoes, the same
    - there were no household appliances in abundance
    - there were no carpets
    -there was no crystal
    - there were no cars for sale.

    That's the whole story, a person needs material things, and not ideas that you cannot touch and put in your mouth. We especially needed carpets, crystal and household appliances - I am exaggerating here, of course. Well, now all this in bulk, even in the village you can buy. And the people are again not happy, and again the throne is shaking.
    Why so, why are we always unhappy with something?
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 21 February 2021 11: 11
      +2
      Quote: tihonmarine
      Why so, why are we always unhappy with something?


      But the type "does not understand" And because everything is imported, its own economy does not develop, and the people live on a penny.
      And then under Brezhnev we lived on a penny and now we live on a penny.
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 21 February 2021 15: 25
        +2
        Quote: Bar1
        And then under Brezhnev we lived on a penny and now we live on a penny.

        It turns out interestingly that under Brezhnev they lived on a penny, and there was not enough carpets, crystal, cars. When there is not enough money for bread, meat and trousers with boots, it’s a penny. Under Khrushche, I stood in line for bread, if my mother could give me 1 kg to school for a week. meat, went to school in kirzach and cotton pants. Moreover, my father was not the last poor man, but a teacher at school.
      2. silberwolf88
        silberwolf88 21 February 2021 21: 49
        0
        so go and develop your economy, put your mind and talent in the matter of import independence ... do not interfere with concrete with your tongue ...
    2. Bar1
      Bar1 21 February 2021 11: 32
      +1
      Quote: tihonmarine
      That's the whole story, a person needs material things, and not ideas that you cannot touch and put in your mouth.


      took a piece, snatched from my speech and made a bad conclusion, as if I had not written about something else.
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 21 February 2021 10: 28
    +1
    for the army raised from its knees
    generally supporting you, I disagree here. optimizers by definition. they cannot create or improve something. lift up. Now, based on the results of covido hysteria, they will begin to say that he raised medicine from his knees.
    The army was optimized, and if not for the case of 08.08.08 Then we realized that while they are optimizing, others are developing (I mean not Georgians). Then they realized that the army was needed, they had to fork out. Maybe now, after Kovid, hospitals will stop closing.
  • ANB
    ANB 21 February 2021 11: 20
    -2
    ... Andropov

    Personally, I liked it under Andropov.
    The drunks from the streets and trucks from the yards disappeared. Butter and sausage appeared quite freely in stores.
    Now there are many articles that Andropov began the collapse of the USSR, promoted Gorbachev. True or not, I did not delve into it. I don’t want to.
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 21 February 2021 11: 34
      +3
      Quote: ANB
      The drunks from the streets and trucks from the yards disappeared. Butter and sausage appeared quite freely in stores.


      nonsense - it was a ONE-TIME action, for a couple of weeks, and then again the same thing.
      1. ANB
        ANB 21 February 2021 11: 42
        -1
        ... , and then again the same thing.

        And then there was Chernenko.
      2. Baloo
        Baloo 21 February 2021 13: 57
        +1
        Quote: Bar1
        Quote: ANB
        The drunks from the streets and trucks from the yards disappeared. Butter and sausage appeared quite freely in stores.


        nonsense - it was a ONE-TIME action, for a couple of weeks, and then again the same thing.

        Not so, the deficit disappeared, cars began to be sold on credit, even the Volga, and some without long queues. They pressed the traders and the nomenclature, the deficit disappeared. At that time I lived in a working hostel in Izhevsk, I remember those times.
    2. ironic
      ironic 21 February 2021 14: 03
      -4
      And people again began to fear their own shadow. You probably especially liked this?
  • Hlavaty
    Hlavaty 21 February 2021 12: 44
    +2
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    of them, I will remember only Brezhnev with a kind word ...

    Brezhnev deserves to be remembered exclusively in swear words.
    It was Brezhnev who drowned the USSR in a swamp.
    It was under him that the idea of ​​convergence (the peaceful transition of capitalism to socialism) prevailed, which allowed him to start hugging the West and slowly drain the USSR, receiving small buns for this. When you read how American businessmen threw off to give him another luxurious car, you feel ashamed for the country in which such a ruler is.
    It was under Brezhnev that corruption, thieves in law and the shadow economy flourished, raising local princelings, who then destroyed the USSR.
    It was under him that ideology turned into a dull duty, which was served at meetings, more and more convinced that at the very top no one believes in any communism. As a result, people stopped believing in anything at all, which means they became ready for any crime. Oligarchs, racketeers, embezzlers did not come to us from Mars - most of them are former members of the CPSU and Komsomol.

    No wonder that time was aptly called "stagnation". In that stagnation, like in a swamp, everything has rotted to such an extent that when the USSR collapsed in 1991, no one even tried to save it.
    Gorbachev has just completed the process.
    1. Baloo
      Baloo 21 February 2021 14: 01
      +1
      Quote: Hlavaty
      Brezhnev deserves to be remembered exclusively in swear words.
      It was Brezhnev who drowned the USSR in a swamp.

      exactly. Before Khrushchev was thrown off: we go with my mother in Oktyabrsk to a fish store. Trading room 3x5 and the rest of the room is slightly larger. On the counter in the refrigerator on trays weighed out fish caviar, red and black, fish, etc. I ask my mother what is fish caviar, it is not tasty. A month before the shift of Khrushchev's line for bread, everything disappeared. After the removal of Khrushchev, the shops were full, then within two or three years gradually the shelves began to empty. Another sketch from nature: in 1977 or 1978, we students were filmed for a flu epidemic, we drove with the residents on the director's Volga on the night shift on calls. In one entrance there is such a picture: on the staircase in the corner there are 3 sticks of smoked sausage, covered with bloom. At that time, the well-fed could not demonstrate what they stole as they do now, but there were also those who threw food into the trash heap, did not have time to eat.
  • sniperino
    sniperino 22 February 2021 00: 03
    0
    Quote: Pessimist22
    the cult of personality flourishes in VO, and what is important they say and write how good it was under Dzhugashvili, those who never lived under him.
    Sad lies. They say and write that Stalin assumed responsibility for the leadership of the construction and defense of the USSR and coped with these most difficult tasks; that it was hard for all the people then, but people believed, built and protected. And those who made you feel so good made a mess and merged the country.
  • Bar1
    Bar1 21 February 2021 08: 55
    +5
    Stalin is a convinced Bolshevik, the main expert on the national question. Trotsky, on the other hand, rushes about in search of unity not only with the Mensheviks, but also with other leftist parties, and not necessarily Russian ones. After all, the goal of his life is a world revolution.


    Well, yes, Stalin's speech at the 10th Congress on the Ukrainization of the Russians really says that Stalin is the father of the peoples, from the Russian people.

    As for Leiba Bronstein, his biography is not complete. How he lived in emigration is not known, but he did not live poorly, and therefore supported by the powerful. For example, they say that he lived in America not for several months, but for several years , and then with a suitcase of money -10 thousand dollars came to St. Petersburg and headed the Bolshevik party.

    https://www.sovsekretno.ru/articles/amerikanskaya-odisseya-trotskogo/

    Bronstein has always advocated the concessional raw-material economy of Russia, i.e.
    to distribute all the wealth of Russia to foreigners and did so, for example, with the Caucasian oil fields, which were given to the Rockefellers, this fact confirms the idea that Trotsky's agent is not German, but American or British.
    The fact that this is so can be traced by his position on the negotiations in Brest-Litovsk, where Trotsky flunked negotiations on an armistice or withdrawal from the war, i.e. Trotsky most likely worked for the Entente.
    There is a movie "Trotsky" with Khabensky, where he is his family, the poor and unfortunate cannot buy themselves a loaf of bread in Petrograd: disgusting lies and propaganda of modern Putin culture.
    1. ironic
      ironic 21 February 2021 14: 05
      -3
      Is it okay that the Rockefellers were anti-Semites? Don't talk nonsense, it hurts.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 21 February 2021 14: 17
        +5
        Quote: ironic
        Is it okay that the Rockefellers were anti-Semites? Don't talk nonsense, it hurts.


        Jews cannot be anti-Semites, Because by definition, Semites.

        http://cyclowiki.org/wiki/Рокфеллеры
        1. ironic
          ironic 21 February 2021 14: 20
          -3
          They do not go back to any Sephardic Jews. Opportunity for cyclists sucks. They are descendants of more Irish people. Also supporters of the first Nazi, and then the globalist worldview, ardent antipodes of Zionism.
  • Bar1
    Bar1 21 February 2021 09: 19
    +2
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    When you read what Trotsky did in the Civil War, you grab his head


    in general, to deal with the crimes of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Sverdlov, Tukhachevsky, Dzerzhinsky, Frunze. No one has really undertaken. Only the suppression of peasant uprisings in the Tambov province by Tukhachevsky with the help of poison gases says a lot. About the Chembarnikov uprising in Siberia, little is generally known , there the Bolsheviks shot the peasants in THOUSANDS.
    1. Gardamir
      Gardamir 21 February 2021 10: 29
      0
      deal with crimes at all
      Understand, sort it out) Yeltsin for the collapse of the country put monuments. Honor and respect from those in power now.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 21 February 2021 11: 21
        +1
        Quote: Gardamir
        Understand, sort it out) Yeltsin for the collapse of the country put monuments. Honor and respect from those in power now.


        about ebna have already figured out, here is a video of Spitsyn, who smeared this "falcon"

    2. bk0010
      bk0010 21 February 2021 13: 23
      -1
      Quote: Bar1
      No one has really undertaken yet. Only the suppression of peasant uprisings in the Tambov province by Tukhachevsky with the help of poisonous gases says a lot.
      Well, write down how many rebels were poisoned (hint - 0).
      Quote: Bar1
      Little is known about the Chembarnikov uprising in Siberia, where the Bolsheviks shot thousands of peasants.
      What is there, BILLIONS. By the way, ask how many peasants who did not want to fight were shot by the rebels.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 21 February 2021 13: 39
        +4
        Quote: bk0010
        Well, write down how many rebels were poisoned (hint - 0).


        your "tip" is worthless.

        For the first time in history, Tukhachevsky's army used chemical weapons against his people - shells and chlorine cylinders.

        June 24, 1921 To the Commander of the Troops of the Tambov Province

        REPORT

        Regarding the use of gases in Moscow, I found out the following: an outfit for 2 chemical shells was given, and these days they should arrive in Tambov. Distribution into sections: 000st, 1nd, 2rd, 3th and 4th in 5, and 200th - 6. I present the instructions for use for your consideration, after which I will send it to the heads of artillery of the sections.

        Tambov Army Artillery Inspector

        to combat banditry S. Kosinov

        - B.V. Sennikov. Tambov uprising of 1918-1921 and the de-peasantization of Russia in 1929-1933
        The gases were used in places of the most intense resistance of the insurgents, as well as in forests and swamps, where access for troops was difficult.

        The Plenipotentiary Commission of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee recommended the following method of cleaning up the settlements covered by the uprising by issuing order No. 23 on June 1921 of the year 116 signed by its chairman Antonov-Ovseenko and commander of the troops Tukhachevsky [34]:


        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тамбовское_восстание_(1920—1921)


        Well it is necessary to gasse your people, as enemies, as occupiers.
        And how to shoot the peasant army of Makhno, which was an ally of the Red Army and which actually defeated Denikin's army? Is this not a crime of Lenin, Trotsky, Frunze?
        1. bk0010
          bk0010 21 February 2021 20: 01
          -1
          Quote: Bar1
          Well it is necessary to gasse your people, as enemies, as occupiers.

          At that time, gas attacks were carried out in two ways: by spraying gas from cylinders or by shelling the territory with chemical shells containing gas.

          So - "cylinders with poisonous gases", which Tukhachevsky writes about in his order, were simply not at the disposal of the Tambov command. I had to turn to Moscow for help. The military leadership was very skeptical about the proposal to conduct gas attacks against the Tambov rebels, but allocated 250 cylinders. However, upon the arrival of the necessary ammunition, another circumstance became clear: the only unit in the Tambov region capable of conducting gas attacks - the 1st Separate Chemical Company - was absolutely unprepared for such a task. This is how the local command assessed her condition: "... the absence of command personnel and uniforms, training sessions are not conducted, people are completely untrained, and the chemical combatant is absolutely unprepared and incapable of gas fighting."

          The result - there was no one to carry out gas-balloon attacks in the Tambov province, so this option of fighting rebels fell away by itself.

          However, Tukhachevsky still had chemical shells at his disposal, which were also sent from Moscow in the amount of 2000 pieces. It was easier to use them - they were ordinary shells, only filled with gas. And trained artillery units, unlike chemical ones, were at the disposal of Tukhachevsky. Indeed, the Red Command had high hopes for the shelling of the rebels with chemical shells. However, these hopes did not come true.

          In reality, only one attempt was made to conduct a full-fledged gas attack. It was an operation to clean up the Parevsky forest of rebels, which took place from August 1 to 10, 1921.

          At the very beginning of the operation, on August 2, 1921, the red artillery fired 59 chemical shells on the island of Suchie Dubki, where, according to the information available to the Soviet command, the leader of the rebel Antonov was hiding. After that, the Soviet units combed the island. The only thing they found there was three horses tied to trees.

          Either the Antonovites managed to get out of the shelling, or they were not there at all on the island, but the rebels did not suffer any losses from this bombardment. The only trophies of the Reds were these horses, by the way, successfully survived the "gas attack". This is not surprising: in order to create a toxic cloud of the required concentration, 59 chemical shells were not enough.

          In addition to this unsuccessful attempt to “smoke bandits” from the forest, two more cases of spontaneous use of red chemical shells in the fight against Tambov rebels were recorded.

          The first episode occurred on the night of July 12-13, 1921 in a battle with the Antonovites near the village of Smolnaya Vershina. Parts of the Red Army fired 15 chemical shells at the enemy. The reason for firing chemical shells, most likely, was the curiosity of the red gunners: they wanted to see how effective the new ammunition was. The result of this shooting was zero - to create a deadly cloud, it was necessary to release tens of times more shells.

          A similar situation was in the second case. On July 14, 1921, a horse-drawn battery fired at a forest south of Lake Ilmen. 50 chemical shells were fired in the forest. It can be asserted almost certainly that the specified shelling did not bring any results - since this fact was not considered necessary even to be recorded in operational reports, where information was recorded about all at least any significant military operations.

          Thus, in the entire history of the suppression of the Tambov uprising, only three cases of gas use by the red forces can be counted. In all these cases, the result of this use was zero: the rebels did not suffer any losses from gas attacks.

          Convinced of the low effectiveness of chemical shells, the Soviet troops returned to the practice of conventional artillery shelling of forests "by area." This measure did not cause practically any material damage to the rebels, but the psychological effect of such a shelling was enormous - the Antonovites, frightened by artillery fire, surrendered to the Red Army in dozens. This ended the story of the so-called. "Tambov gases".
          Quote: Bar1
          And to shoot the peasant army of Makhno
          And the Makhnovists did not shoot the Bolsheviks? Or is it possible for the Makhnovists, but not for the Bolsheviks?
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 21 February 2021 21: 43
            +1
            Quote: bk0010
            And the Makhnovists did not shoot the Bolsheviks? Or is it possible for the Makhnovists, but not for the Bolsheviks?


            Makhno did not shoot the Bolsheviks and NEVER betrayed them, like the Bolsheviks. Makhno sent grain to Petersburg to starving workers, and the Bolsheviks destroyed the entire army of Makhno.
        2. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 05: 20
          -1
          Quote: Bar1
          Well it is necessary to gasse your people, as enemies, as occupiers.

          Whites also poisoned their people with gases. With might and main. By that time - a common practice.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 22 February 2021 07: 07
            +2
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            Whites also poisoned their people with gases. With might and main. By that time - a common practice.



            link please.
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 11: 28
              -1
              https://komandante-07.livejournal.com/95337.html Плюс Столыпин.
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 22 February 2021 13: 23
                +1
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                https://komandante-07.livejournal.com/95337.html


                did you read the link yourself?
                First, there was a war, even a civil one, but there were soldiers on one side and on the other.
                Secondly, as we can see from this article, it was the Reds who used gas shells to a greater extent.
                Thirdly, in the Republic of Ingushetia, chemical shells were NOT PRODUCED. And the invaders brought the shells to us, BUT how then did these shells get to the red ones? Because the whites did not shoot or used little chemical shells, while the red chemical shells were captured and USED. Do you feel the difference?

                In order to stop the advance of the Bolsheviks, at an afternoon meeting, I suggested using mustard gas, which is equipped with special artillery shells. Many shells with this and other gases were unloaded at the stations, but until now, for political reasons, they have not been used - not only so as not to kill innocent peasants, but also because the personnel of the White Army were very nervous when handling with these shells.

                DID NOT APPLY.
                in short, in war, as in war.
                But to use superior weapons against their own people who did not have such weapons are dishonest methods that were used only by the Bolsheviks.
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 14: 52
                  0
                  Quote: Bar1
                  did you read the link yourself?

                  Of course I did. Otherwise, I would not offer it. But you did not bother to read it, but draw conclusions.
                  Quote: Bar1
                  as we can see from this article, it was the red ones who used gas shells to a greater extent.

                  On the contrary.
                  Quote: Bar1
                  the invaders brought shells to us, BUT how did these shells get to the red ones then? Because the whites did not shoot or used little chemical shells, while the red chemical shells captured and USED

                  Ha! The Reds seized from the whites in a huge amount of weapons and ammunition, uniforms and medicines - very often imported. Does this mean that whites "used little" all this?
                  "The second battle lasted 12 hours, and the village was fired with shells with suffocating gases."
                  ".... With the knowledge of Rozanov, units of the Czechoslovak corps in June 1919 shelled the partisan areas of the Taishet district (Shitka partisan front) in the village of Biryusa, St. Akul'shet. More than two hundred local residents and partisans died from poisoning. Many were sick for many years, poisoned Dozens of partisans, after the end of the punitive operation, were loaded into "death echelons".
                  "... I declare to the population of the Taganrog District that in case of opposition to the legitimate authorities, asphyxiation gases will be used against the rebels without any regret or condescension to pleas for mercy, for which chemical teams are sent. District Ataman Colonel"
                  ". At 22 o'clock, the platoon fired about 100 chemical shells at the village of Annino, thanks to which, according to the testimony of the prisoners, over a hundred people were killed, wounded and poisoned, and the commissar of the regiment was killed."
                  Not against your people, yeah. Only the Bolsheviks, yeah. For whites, the entire people were Bolsheviks.
                  1. Bar1
                    Bar1 22 February 2021 15: 35
                    +2
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    With the knowledge of Rozanov, units of the Czechoslovak Corps in and


                    Well, where is the use of white chemical projectiles? What did you highlight these quotes? In the first it is the Czechs, in the second quotation there is only a threat of use, in the third it is military action. Where is the use of chemical weapons by the whites against the population or against the partisans?
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 16: 19
                      -1
                      Quote: Bar1
                      Where is the use of chemical weapons by whites on the population or on the partisans?

                      Everywhere. Or, in your opinion, did the Czechs or the British wage a separate war? Specifically here - in the first quote. Not Czechs, but whites. Why did you ask for the link if you didn't read it?
                      Quote: Bar1
                      in the third military action

                      The Reds also had hostilities. And they didn't always use gases when they intended. What do you have against them?
                    2. Bar1
                      Bar1 22 February 2021 16: 28
                      +2
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      Not Czechs, but whites.


                      where do you see the whites when it says "... units of the Czechoslovak corps"?
                      The Czechs did not obey Kolchak or anyone else, and chemical shells could only get at them from the British or French or American interventionists. The Czechs themselves became invaders and robbers for Russia (they robbed the peasants of Siberia and requisitioned food) and the centers of the REBEL.

                      In short, you have refuted yourself with this link of yours.
                    3. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 17: 03
                      -1
                      Quote: Bar1
                      where do you see the whites when it says "... units of the Czechoslovak corps"?

                      I see it where it is written: "On actions against the Red partisans on the Shitkinsky front:" Twice, on April 14 and 18, the Whites tried to capture the village of Biryusinskoye, but were repulsed. The second battle lasted 12 hours, and the village was fired with shells with suffocating gases. "
                      And "in June 1919, parts of the Czechoslovak corps fired on the partisan areas of the Taishet district." This is two months later.
                      Quote: Bar1
                      The Czechs themselves became invaders and robbers for Russia (they robbed the peasants of Siberia and requisitioned food) and centers of the REBEL.

                      As well as the whites themselves.
                    4. Bar1
                      Bar1 22 February 2021 19: 31
                      +2
                      in short, apparently the white units were advancing along with the Czechs, then they write that the Czech battery and armored car fired at the village of Biryusu.
                      And all the same, the Czechs fired at the village. In any case, there was a battle between whites and Czechs on one side and red on the other, and a battle took place in the village of Biryusa.
                      It was a civil war, when soldiers fought against the soldiers, but Tukhachevsky used chemical weapons against the peasants, and this is not the same thing.
                      By the way, the link on this page does not work -404, so it is impossible to check what you posted.
                    5. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 23 February 2021 05: 53
                      -1
                      Quote: Bar1
                      white units advanced along with the Czechs

                      What are we talking about. This means that the whites gassed the Russian peasants. Q.E.D. And if this source is not enough for you, I have already recommended Stolypin. His part did without the Czechs ...
                      Quote: Bar1
                      It was a civil war, when soldiers fought against the soldiers.

                      Before that you asked: "Where is the use of chemical weapons by white people on the population or on the partisans" - here it is, in front of you. It is clearly written: "against the partisans" with whom civilians also suffered. So for you now these are "soldiers"? In the summer of 1919 in Eastern Siberia? In this case, there were soldiers against Tukhachevsky in the Tambov region (in many respects this was indeed the case). So red and white are on an equal footing here.
                    6. Bar1
                      Bar1 23 February 2021 08: 30
                      +2
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      What are we talking about. This means that the whites gassed the Russian peasants. Q.E.D. And if this source is not enough for you, I have already recommended Stolypin. His part did without the Czechs ...


                      the fact that the Czechs used chemical weapons you found such a fact, I don't know anything about Stolypin, let's read the link.

                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      Before that you asked: "Where is the use of chemical weapons by white people on the population or on partisans" - here it is, in front of you

                      together with the Czechs, there is such a fact.
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      against partisans ", with whom civilians also suffered

                      It is not necessary to invent that the battles took place during the capture of the village of Biryusa does not mean that civilians suffered. Usually, the military defend civilian and defensive structures in front of the settlement. In any case, nothing is known about the "peaceful" ones.

                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      Before that you asked: "Where is the use of chemical weapons by white people on the population or on partisans" - here it is, in front of you.


                      it is written that the Czechs used chemical weapons: "Czech battery and armored car"
                      but the red fought like this
                      Yaroslavl uprising.
                      "Send urgently a thousand three-inch shells for armored cars. The lack of shells slowed down the advance. Send also
                      10 machine guns, spare parts for them and 10 shells, half shrapnel, half grenades, as well as five hundred
                      incendiary and five hundred chemical shells. I guess I'll have to raze the city to the ground. "
                      Telegram from Kraskom Yu Guzarsky dated July 16, 1918.


                      demolish the city to the ground, do the whites have such cases?
                    7. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 23 February 2021 13: 55
                      -1
                      Quote: Bar1
                      I don't know anything about Stolypin

                      https://www.rulit.me/books/zapiski-dragunskogo-oficera-dnevniki-1919-1920-godov-read-229379-11.html
                      Quote: Bar1
                      together with the Czechs, there is such a fact.

                      As required.
                      Quote: Bar1
                      no need to invent, the fact that the battles took place during the capture of the village of Biryusa does not mean that civilians suffered

                      So do not invent it. All the more so primitive. It is clearly written: "the village was shelled", "the village was shelled", "More than two hundred local residents and partisans who died from poisoning ..."
                      Quote: Bar1
                      but the red fought like this
                      Yaroslavl uprising.
                      "Send urgently a thousand three-inch shells for armored cars. The lack of shells slowed down the advance. Send also
                      10 machine guns, spare parts for them and 10 shells, half shrapnel, half grenades, as well as five hundred
                      incendiary and five hundred chemical shells.

                      Here: "Meanwhile, there is no information about the use of chemical weapons in suppressing the rebellion."
                      Quote: Bar1
                      demolish the city to the ground, do the whites have such cases?

                      As you well said: not the scale. The whites have this: “Let half of Russia be burned,” he said passionately, “to pour blood over three-quarters of Russia, but all the same, Russia must be saved!” He is Kornilov. (Nesterovich-Berg M.A. In the fight against the Bolsheviks)
                    8. Bar1
                      Bar1 23 February 2021 17: 25
                      +2
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      https://www.rulit.me/books/zapiski-dragunskogo-oficera-dnevniki-1919-1920-godov-read-229379-11.html


                      Well, where are the toxic substances? Melenite, or what? But this is an explosive. And where is this Stolypin? That you got it all mixed up.
                    9. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 23 February 2021 18: 41
                      -1
                      As my lawyer friend used to say: "read the entire document." Not half a page.
                    10. Bar1
                      Bar1 23 February 2021 18: 51
                      +2
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      As my lawyer friend used to say: "read the entire document." Not half a page.


                      I have already said, this is military action, not a punitive operation, like the Bolsheviks, What have you brought again, some nonsense?

                      In short, you DIDN'T succeed in proving that the whites used gases on the civilian population. They used the Czechs and the British.
                      Whites did NOT carry out punitive expeditions, like the red ones, you have not provided evidence to this effect.
                      These are the conclusions from our long conversation.
                    11. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 24 February 2021 03: 26
                      0
                      If THIS is fighting, then the Reds have NEVER carried out punitive operations. The evidence is there. Your attempts to "not see" the obvious are ridiculous.
      2. Bar1
        Bar1 22 February 2021 19: 46
        +2
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        As well as the whites themselves.


        no not "the same"
        Lenin believed that "the peasantry is an element that constantly gives rise to petty-bourgeois market relations" and the policy of the Soviet government and the Red Army was to SUPPRESS any action of the peasants against, up to punitive measures to completely destroy the opposition.
        Whites did not have such cardinal ideological disagreements with the peasantry as the Reds did and therefore did not destroy the civilian population, although the white question of land was also criminally dragged out.
        And the red ones? First, they agreed with the soldiers 'Soviets about requisitioning the landlords' land, and then they abolished the markets, and for collectivization they took the land from the peasants altogether. the Bolsheviks deceived the peasants.
      3. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 23 February 2021 06: 04
        -1
        Quote: Bar1
        Whites did not have such cardinal ideological differences with the peasantry as the Reds did.

        On the contrary. Stronger than the whites, no one had disagreements with the peasants (in the broad sense, with the people of Russia) in that war. The food requisition ("requisition", "tax") was carried out by the whites just like everyone else, but they also took away the land given by the red. But most importantly, for the people, whites were strangers - "masters", that is. foreign body. And the red ones, for all their behavior, are "theirs". The Whites saw and understood this, therefore they were engaged in the extermination of the civilian population very diligently: "They are all Bolsheviks." Why even the Germans in 1941 refused to take White émigrés into their service? it would increase the resistance of the Russians ...
        Quote: Bar1
        Those. the bolsheviks deceived the peasants

        But at the same time, the peasants did not want any other power ...
      4. Bar1
        Bar1 23 February 2021 08: 10
        +2
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        The whites carried out the requisitioning ("requisition", "taxes") just like everyone else, but they also took away the land given by the Reds.


        but you don't need to invent a gag.
        This is when the whites "took the land" in what particular case?

        How is it that landowners who have always owned land suddenly become "strangers"? Perhaps they were strangers, just the alien Bolsheviks-Jews.
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        The whites carried out the requisitioning ("requisition", "taxes") just like everyone else, but they also took away the land given by the Reds.


        Damn, you again do not know history if you say this.

        None of the Reds "gave land" to the peasants, who were soldiers in the 1st century. They took the landlord's land THEMSELVES, while the Bolsheviks later, when they received a majority in the Soviets, could only consolidate the fact that had already taken place.
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        And the red ones, for all their behavior, are "theirs".


        "their" because they did not take away the land. But the peasants did not have the opportunity to sell their products with the Reds.

        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        The whites saw and understood this, so they were very diligent in exterminating the civilian population:


        let's link to the "extermination" of the peasants by white.
        The fact that the red exterminated, a lot of facts, but the fact that the white?
        Maybe when a landlord officer came to his estate and saw the plowed land, there were some punishments, but this was not a phenomenon of "extermination" and, of course, during the war it was not a mass phenomenon, and therefore there were uprisings against the Bolsheviks, but not against white uprisings. It was.
        Wrong scale.

        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        But at the same time, the peasants did not want any other power ...


        you are cheating.
        For Soviets without Bolsheviks, peasant uprisings took place with such slogans.
      5. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 23 February 2021 13: 24
        -1
        Quote: Bar1
        but you don't need to invent a gag.

        So don't make it up.
        Quote: Bar1
        This is when the whites "took the land" in what particular case?

        In all cases, when they had the opportunity. Read the whites themselves or their supporters: Denikin, Izmest'ev, Trushnovich, etc.
        Quote: Bar1
        How is it that landowners who have always owned land suddenly become "strangers"?

        Not "suddenly"! They were ALWAYS not even strangers, but fierce enemies of the peasants. And they gave them to understand it at every opportunity.
        Quote: Bar1
        Perhaps they were strangers, just the alien Bolsheviks-Jews.

        Yeah, if a Bolshevik, then, of course, a Jew. And if a Jew, then a Bolshevik. If only they would not be disgraced! The Bolsheviks for the peasants were primarily their fellow villagers: fathers, sons, brothers who came from the front.
        Quote: Bar1
        there were no white uprisings

        It was just that the Whites were crying that the Red Army, in fact, had come to Siberia, to the ready - the White Army was destroyed by local peasants, and in the South of Russia the White ridge was killed by the Makhnovists - Ukrainian peasants. The wildest ignorance!
        Quote: Bar1
        For Soviets without Bolsheviks - peasant uprisings took place with such slogans

        And also: "Down with the communists, long live the Soviet power and the Bolsheviks!"
      6. Bar1
        Bar1 23 February 2021 15: 17
        +2
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        Yeah, if a Bolshevik, then, of course, a Jew. And if a Jew, then a Bolshevik. If only they would not be disgraced! B

        and what a disgrace here? Putin himself said that 90% of Jews were in the first Bolshevik government and this is true.
        And this is how the peasantry perceived the new government.
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        "Down with the communists, long live the Soviet power and the Bolsheviks!"


        what it is? Is this your pun?
        -Are you Vasil Ivanovich for the Bolsheviks or for the Communists?
        - I'm for the International.
      7. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 23 February 2021 15: 52
        -1
        Quote: Bar1
        and what a disgrace here? Putin himself said that 90% of Jews were in the first Bolshevik government and this is true.

        That's what I mean. And if he said that the Earth is on three whales and you would be there too? It is not necessary to repeat other people's nonsense, but to think with your own head and know the topic.
        Quote: Bar1
        what it is? Is this your pun?

        This is a historical fact. Happened repeatedly. Learn materiel.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 23 February 2021 13: 31
    -1
    Quote: Bar1
    let's link to the "extermination" of the peasants by white

    And not only peasants. Read and count:
    1. ".... inept leaders in the fight against these gangs, used the easiest and most unfair method: blaming the local population for the damage to the railway. Executions of villages and entire volosts were carried out. After the end of the struggle at the front, when the remnants of our army marched to the east, we had to see several large villages, which were burned almost to the ground by these detachments as punishment for not catching the Bolshevik robbers who crashed on the section of the Taishet-Klyukvennaya station. The peasant population of such villages dispersed and was doomed to poverty, hunger and death.
    It is clear that such measures only embittered the population and provided support and development of the Bolshevik and Socialist-era activities, strengthening their criminal propaganda (K. V. Sakharov)

    2. "By order of General Kruglevsky, the Cossacks began to commit reprisals.
    The village priest, along with his wife and pupil, were taken out into the garden, forced to dig a grave and shot.
    One of the first to burn down the manor of the priest, and then began to set fire to the houses of the peasants from both sides of the village. Only the Loparevsky Territory, few managed to survive, while the Zyryanovsky and Koshkin Territories were burned almost to the ground. Women with children ran to the lake to hide under boats. In the Zyryansk region, only one five-wall man was spared, because the daughter of the owner of the house was married to a Cossack on the Zhelezny farm.
    People who met on the street were whipped and shot. Many local residents, including 12-year-old children, were killed right in the streets and in the courtyards of their houses, women and girls were previously raped. Marauders seized peasant goods. The corpses were dragged into a ravine and somehow fell asleep "(Oleg Durov. Tragic events in Bolshoy Kureinoe)

    3. "The Jews were waiting with hope for the arrival of the Volunteer Army. They hoped for an end to requisitions and confiscations of" surplus ", the abolition of military posts, etc. But the entry of the Volunteer Army into Kiev began with pogroms. and a group of beaten and tortured Jews began to be pogroms - an integral, organic feature of the life and operations of the Volunteer Army.
    ..... Hundreds of innocent people, who seemed "suspicious", were daily driven under escort to check in counterintelligence prisons. Their interrogation was carried out “with partiality”: rough treatment, bullying, beatings, torture, violence against arrested women, etc. With a huge number of those arrested, they did not gimmick with interrogations. Many "suspicious" did not live to see the next day. The unloading of prisons was also carried out without much red tape. In this matter, the military units helped counterintelligence. At the headquarters of General Glazenin, the "suspicious" were eliminated primarily on the basis of one essential feature: "Jew." The "guilty" was immediately allowed "to flow" (NP Poletik "Memories").

    4. During the offensive in the Kursk province, we occupied a village, in the vicinity of which there were two estates. During the revolution, the peasants took advantage of the landlord's forest, and many built houses for themselves. Before our regiment had time to rest, the very next day two landowners appeared with a detachment of gendarmes and began to search the peasants. One of them found his galoshes from the peasant and ordered him to be flogged. Houses built from the landlord's forest were ordered to be demolished. Peasants came in droves to complain to our commanders, but the landowners showed some papers, and ours did not know how to behave. The more resolute stopped the outrage at their own peril and risk, others turned a blind eye to everything.
    Two weeks later, these peasants were partisans in our rear. ...
    - Well, it's good that we didn't take Moscow, we would have been swept out of there with a broom, - this is how Ignatius, a seven-time wounded pioneer who remained in the ranks with an amputated right hand, finished his story. Everyone who only knew and saw him deeply respected him. In the morning he was helped to get into the saddle and in the evening - to get off the horse. The reins have been shortened and tied to facilitate one-handed operation.
    - What next? The peasantry is driving us away, the collapse in the rear is in full swing and is already infecting combat units, the Cossacks do not want to fight either. How much evil the Cossacks Shkuro and Pokrovsky brought to Russia and the White movement! (A.R. Trushnovich "Memories of a Kornilovite: 1914-1934")

    5. “And Kolchak with incredible cruelty suppresses, kills thousands of people, not sparing women and children, about 5 thousand people were killed in Kustanai alone; entire villages and villages are being destroyed.
    ... Look around ... the entire Semipalatinsk and Altai provinces are completely destroyed, men and women, old people and children are disgraced, whipped, many were shot; whole villages were burned in the Mariinsky district, women, old men and children were flogged, and then locked up in barns and 200 people were burned alive, while grown men were beaten and shot; in the mines they counted, flogged and shot a mass of innocent workers; in Tomsk more than three hundred young recruits were shot, hundreds of turnovers, many of the arrested workers and peasants who were in prisons were shot, some in Tomsk itself, some were taken out of the city and killed at the nearest stations; workers, peasants and soldiers are massacred in Tobolsk, Omsk, Novonikolaevsk, Krasnoyarsk, Narym, Kuznetsk, Irkutsk, Chita, in all corners and nooks of Siberia. (July 1919)
    ... Baevo. According to reliable information, after the occupation of the city of Stone by the whites, they shot about 900 people of both sexes. (September 8, 1919).
    .. The villages of Kamyshenka, Pautovo, Taurak and Cherny Anuy were on fire.
    In the occupied villages, the white men brutally dealt with the residents and families of the rebels. In the village of Kamyshenka, the Kolchakites burned down the house of the leader of the uprising D.I. Ryabopolov, tortured his wife and mother, flogged up to three hundred residents, including the elderly and pregnant women.
    In the village of Mikhailovka, captured insurgents were buried alive up to their shoulders in the ground. Punishers lined up in a chain and in horse ranks practiced chopping down the heads of the rebels. ("Partisan movement in Western Siberia.")
    6. “There were sometimes calls to“ exterminate all workers over 16 years old. ”Worker, proletarian means a communist. A sailor is definitely a communist: there is an episode when all the sailors were hanged in one volost. Because the sailors. Intelligents (especially those who wore glasses, as you know) the military man traditionally did not like it. An intellectual is by default an accomplice of either the Bolsheviks or Kerensky. " (E. Stavrogin, I. Paldin
    Who is a white officer?)
  • Bar1
    Bar1 23 February 2021 14: 05
    +2
    so there will be no links?
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 23 February 2021 15: 47
    -1
    Has already. Not one or two.
  • Bar1
    Bar1 21 February 2021 13: 44
    +2
    Quote: bk0010
    By the way, ask how many peasants who did not want to fight were shot by the rebels.


    and do you have a source on this? You have nothing but chatter.
    All the problems began precisely with the policy of war communism, when armed townspeople came to the village and for sticks and candy wrappers or solid and unacceptably low prices, robbed the peasants of bread. Why did this happen? Because the Bolsheviks broke all the NATURAL relations between town and country, i.e. The Bolsheviks destroyed the market relations and replaced them with the general expropriation and subsequent distribution of urban and agricultural goods.
    That is why there were uprisings, riots and famines.
    1. bk0010
      bk0010 21 February 2021 20: 06
      0
      Quote: Bar1
      and do you have a source on this?
      Ваша любимая википедия (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_(1921%E2%80%941922)):
      The organizers of the insurrectionary movement had to resort to violent mobilization of the male population aged 18 to 35 (45) years, if necessary, without stopping before reprisals.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 21 February 2021 21: 39
        +1
        Quote: bk0010
        Your favorite wikipedia




        it's all under your link
        1. bk0010
          bk0010 21 February 2021 22: 03
          0
          Quote: Bar1
          it's all under your link
          It opens for me. Try typing like this: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapadno-Siberian_Vosstanie_(1921-1922)
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 21 February 2021 22: 25
            0
            Quote: bk0010
            opens me up. Try typing like this: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapadno-Siberian_Vosstanie_(1921-1922)


            Of course, those rebelled from whom the Bolsheviks robbed the economy, but there were also those from whom there was nothing to take, these are poor people. Of course they did not want to fight, there was no point, so there were some repressions, but how many were repressed by the rebels do not write many.
            In Siberia, the peasants lived prosperously and even serfdom was not there, there were many Cossacks, so there was simply no foundation for a Bolshevik state. But the Bolsheviks acted like this.

            For damage to the railroad tracks, the Red Army burned all villages within a radius of 10 versts. According to the data of the chairman of the Sibrevkom I.N.Smirnov for March 1921, in less than the first month and a half of fighting in the Ishim district, about 7000 peasants were killed and in Petropavlovsky - 15000 peasants.


            from there ...

            What was happening then is simply incomprehensible to the mind. The Bolsheviks were worse than the plague, they were completely alien to the Russian people. They deceived the peasants, allowed them to have land, and then they came and began to rob the peasants. Bolshevik propaganda called the wealthy peasants fists, bandits, although they were It was not so. The Peasants' World / Soviets had great authority among the people and therefore such a scale of destruction of the peasants was a struggle for power. The Bolsheviks are just monsters.
            This article does not contain the keyword CHEMBARNIKI, so the essence of the article is also distorted.
            -chembarnik-che / se / this BAR _nik-these were the bars about which we do not know anything.
            Also, the uprising began after the 1st century. and after the essentially civil war, but the Bolshevik expropriations continued.
            1. bk0010
              bk0010 22 February 2021 01: 06
              +1
              1. The surplus appropriation was started even before the October revolution.
              2. Stolypin also tried to fight with his fists.
              3. The Bolsheviks did exactly what their enemies did to them.
              Quote: Bar1
              therefore, such a scale of destruction of peasants was a struggle for power
              The Bolsheviks already had power.
            2. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 05: 18
              0
              Quote: Bar1
              The Bolsheviks were worse than the plague, they were people completely alien to the Russian people.

              Who were the others if the Bolsheviks were the best for the Russian people?
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 22 February 2021 07: 10
                0
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                Who were the others if the Bolsheviks were the best for the Russian people?


                as the best. when the Bolsheviks destroyed the Russian people.
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 11: 34
                  0
                  I don’t know how, but exactly so.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 21 February 2021 18: 43
    +1
    Quote: bk0010
    how many peasants who did not want to fight were shot by the rebels.

    From family stories about the Tobolsk uprising of 1920-21: "Chaldonyo got up, they came to us:" if you don't go with us, we will kill you all. " To "us" is to the immigrants, "racial".
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 22 February 2021 07: 09
      +1
      Quote: Sahar Medovich
      From family stories about the Tobolsk uprising of 1920-21: "Chaldonyo got up, they came to us:" if you don't go with us, we will kill you all. " To "us" is to the immigrants, "racial".


      is there a link?
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 11: 33
        0
        A family story? Of course have. Here I am! hi lol laughing
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 22 February 2021 12: 46
          +1
          a family story is not suitable, here you need a link to a more or less authoritative source.
          1. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 13: 57
            +1
            Why then? Family stories are also a valuable resource.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 21 February 2021 10: 27
    +1
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    When you read what Trotsky did in the Civil War, you grab your head. The worst enemy of the Russian people and a ghoul of human blood.

    I agree with you 100 percent, but there are a lot of Trotsky followers even on the VO website.
  • ironic
    ironic 21 February 2021 13: 48
    -2
    Why only Russian? He walked around his people very well.
  • bober1982
    bober1982 21 February 2021 05: 26
    -7
    The Bolsheviks must be given their due, in the matter of rallies and propaganda they had no equal, they knew how to agitate brilliantly.
    The worker needs your boots or, Soviet power will give everything that is in the country to the poor and comfrey
    After such slogans, massive support was secured, given the age-old craving of angry people for other people's boots.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 21 February 2021 05: 32
      -3
      Red, white, green, gray-brown-crimson ... Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, monarchists, anarchists, oligarchs ... damn it ... Whites will come to rob, the Reds will come robbing again ... that's why ordinary people are constantly in poverty lives. When there is no stability in the development of society, when the country is constantly in a fever, then revolution, counter-revolution, then war, then you will inevitably become embittered by someone else's boots.
      1. Pessimist22
        Pessimist22 21 February 2021 05: 35
        0
        Dear, tell me now that there is stability, are we being robbed or not, are we evil now?
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 21 February 2021 05: 54
          +2
          Of course not, smile Where do you see stability, what are the prospects for the development of our country? Did the national projects announced by the authorities really inspire the country?
          1. Pessimist22
            Pessimist22 21 February 2021 06: 12
            +2
            It is clear as more intelligent and experienced, please tell me what you need to do now to get out of this situation?
            1. Lech from Android.
              Lech from Android. 21 February 2021 06: 18
              +3
              In the near future, at least 50 years, not to get caught up in another war, revolution or economic crisis ... This should be the primary task of the authorities ... That is why I do not support revolutionaries like Navalny or others like him. We must give our economy time to work up fat ... Here I trust my comrades who are more knowledgeable and more experienced in this matter. smile
              1. Pessimist22
                Pessimist22 21 February 2021 06: 30
                +1
                Do you consider Navalny a revolutionary? lol , the rich have already worked up fat, they have more and more billions, and the incomes of the poor have become even less, I think that it will not be 50 years at all when the situation becomes revolutionary.
                1. Lech from Android.
                  Lech from Android. 21 February 2021 07: 53
                  +3
                  Navalny undoubtedly positions himself as a revolutionary, the interests of the rich and the general economy of the country are somewhat different things. If Putin wants to somehow influence the country's economy, he will inevitably have to limit the appetites of oligarchs and financial swindlers, otherwise they will limit him. But I think that Putin is serving his last term, what will happen after his reign, only God knows, but given the sad history of our country, it is necessary to prepare for the worst scenario.
                  1. Pessimist22
                    Pessimist22 21 February 2021 08: 13
                    +2
                    The Russian economy works for the interests of the rich, power in Russia belongs to the capitalists and will remain with them, Putin will leave, they will put another puppet, which will be controlled by Putin and his friends, otherwise it is not easy.
                  2. Baloo
                    Baloo 21 February 2021 10: 59
                    +2
                    Quote: Lech from Android.
                    Navalny undoubtedly positions himself as a revolutionary,

                    ??? It's strange. An ordinary swindler and his activities in the interests of that group of well-fed people who need to rob the people even more, but the GDP interferes, and then dump them in Miami or Switzerland.
            2. paul3390
              paul3390 21 February 2021 13: 01
              +1
              Return the Stalinist version of Soviet power. This is the only way out.
            3. bk0010
              bk0010 21 February 2021 13: 32
              -1
              Quote: Pessimist22
              It is clear as more intelligent and experienced, please tell me what you need to do now to get out of this situation?
              1. Destroy the dominated thieves. 2. Destroy common thieves. 3. Prepare for an urgent transition to autarky. 4. To increase the nuclear missile potential by at least 5 times. 5. Carry out repairs and restoration of all infrastructure. 6. To begin attempts to enter new markets and increase production of group A goods (it is unrealistic for us to compete with China with household goods, but it is still possible to compete with the Germans and Japanese at the expense of the price, if something sensible is produced).
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 21 February 2021 11: 10
          +1
          Quote: Pessimist22
          Dear, tell me now that there is stability, are we being robbed or not, are we evil now?

          Of course not, they robbed, killed, starved only the Bolsheviks. Judging by many comments. And if you put in a word for Stalin for Lenin, then they put a minus. It turns out now, according to these minus players, "peace, smoothness, God's grace," or maybe they just think that the west is "manna from heaven" and only in the west everything is fine, but at home everything is bad.
    2. Boris55
      Boris55 21 February 2021 08: 17
      +3
      Quote: bober1982
      The Bolsheviks must be given their due, in the matter of rallies and propaganda they had no equal, they knew how to agitate brilliantly.

      Not Bolsheviks - Trotskyists. The Bolsheviks were for the most part simple peasants and workers whose tongue was not as well hung as that of the lousy intelligentsia, who made up the bulk of the Trotskyists.

      Quote: bober1982
      given the age-old craving of angry people for other people's boots.

      Considering three centuries of slavery (serfdom), it would be strange not to want the master's boots.

      This situation was best described by Bulgakov in "Heart of a Dog" in the scene when Professor Preobrazhensky gives a report to medical workers, introducing Sharikov.
      At first they applaud, but as soon as the balls began to sing, they stand in mournful silence ...

      What is it about? About the fact that the populists went to the people and taught ordinary people to hate the authorities (which is what Navalny and Co. are doing today), but when the people began to hang them, they were sincerely surprised - and why are we? And they began to hang them because they taught how to take away other people's boots, but how to sew them themselves - no.

      By the way, even now, no one teaches the people by what criteria to assess the activities of the authorities, incl. be afraid gentlemen. "History is not a teacher, but a warden. She does not teach anything, but only punishes for an unlearned lesson" (Klyuchevsky)

      ps
      • Trotskyism as a mental phenomenon is the claims of a parasitic minority to rule over society on behalf of the working majority.
      Such claims are based on the prejudice: “I am the only and without alternative wise, and therefore my mission in life is to lead politically, that is, give him the meaning of life and rule over it in his own name. "
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 21 February 2021 08: 39
        -1
        Quote: Boris55
        those. give him the meaning of life

        Then it was - to take away other people's boots. Now - to increase the salary four times and divide the subsoil into all. This is the meaning of life, the main thing is to be more impudent and have time to shout out to the crowd first.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 21 February 2021 08: 42
          -4
          Quote: bober1982
          and divide the subsoil into all.

          I remember it was ...
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 21 February 2021 08: 51
            -1
            The destruction of Imperial Russia and the USSR is the work of the same forces, and now they are trying to destroy the Russian state from within, the "spiritual" heirs of these evil forces.
            Boris, we will keep the line from this evil spirits.
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 21 February 2021 11: 15
        0
        Quote: Boris55
        Not Bolsheviks - Trotskyists. The Bolsheviks were for the most part simple peasants and workers whose tongue was not so well hung

        I agree that the Bolsheviks for the most part are workers, and the Trotskyists did not stand at the open-hearth furnace, and did not sit in the face of the mine. And who they were, we all know very well. But the heads of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, they laid a myriad, without pity.
    3. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 22 February 2021 05: 15
      0
      Even better than the Socialist-Revolutionaries and Mensheviks? lol
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 21 February 2021 06: 02
    +4
    Any important political movement requires long-term painstaking work on the ground. And these are not slogans from the upper tribunes. The people will have to tear away from the market piece by piece of social rights. But nothing happens quickly. From the very beginning, this is the enlightenment of their rights under labor law. The worker must know his rights.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 21 February 2021 06: 25
      +3
      The rights were originally given by the constitution of the country ... but here's how to make sure that the worker's salary does not lag forever behind the rise in prices, behind the growth of inflation. And then we have an amazing thing ... The prices for energy resources, foodstuffs, services are growing, and the salary is stably standing still ... Except, of course, for the chosen servants of the people ...
      1. Pessimist22
        Pessimist22 21 February 2021 06: 47
        +2
        “When robbery becomes the lifestyle of a group of people living together in society, over time they create a legal system that legalizes it and glorifies its moral code.”

        Frederic Bastia (1801–1850), French liberal economist. "Economic sophisms."
      2. ANB
        ANB 21 February 2021 11: 33
        +2
        ... but here's how to make sure that the wages of the worker do not lag forever behind the rise in prices, behind the growth of inflation

        No way. Capitalism is the same. The salary is determined by the agreement between the employer and the worker. Like a market. The state can determine the salary only for state employees. The minimum does not affect anything.
        And about socialism ... in 1991.
      3. nikvic46
        nikvic46 21 February 2021 19: 33
        +1
        Lech from Android. You say everything correctly. But the factory has to have the main protector of the workers; it is a trade union, as it now exists, it is simply in the interests of the employer.
    2. Destiny
      Destiny 21 February 2021 07: 16
      +10
      Quote: nikvic46
      The people will have to rip off the market piece after piece of social rights.

      And it will not be possible at the factory to take away at least a shred of small social rights from the employer (they have come up with a word, a benefactor, patron of the arts), while the lured trade unions will only collect contributions, and not defend the rights of workers. on the idea of ​​doing.
  • Boris55
    Boris55 21 February 2021 07: 57
    +8
    And Trotsky, who was recognized by his comrades-in-arms as a military expert, had to deal with almost the main issue - about peace, having entered into negotiations with the Germans.

    Lying. Trotsky in every possible way opposed the conclusion of the Brest Peace.
    1. Destiny
      Destiny 21 February 2021 08: 11
      +11
      As a member of the Soviet delegation, General A.A. Samoilo recalled:
      “Trotsky always spoke at meetings with great fervor, Hoffman did not remain in debt, and the polemic between them often took on a very sharp character. Hoffmann usually jumped up from his seat and, with a vicious face, took up his objections, starting with their cry: "Ich protestiere! ..", often even hitting the table with his hand. At first, such attacks on the Germans were naturally to my heart, but Pokrovsky explained to me how dangerous they were for peace negotiations. "

      In addition, Bronstein was constantly drawn to rush to the German soldiers with agitation, the Kaiser's officers dragged him almost by the strap of his coat from any hill on the ground in the vicinity of Brest, with which he could make fiery speeches about international solidarity of workers. Those. the commissar behaved as provocatively as possible.
      "Neither peace, nor war: we do not sign peace, we stop the war, and we demobilize the army."

      That is what Trotsky is all about. For whatever he did, he always had a complete absurdity.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 21 February 2021 08: 13
    -8
    predetermined the choice of the national outskirts of the fallen empire of the Romanovs in favor of the Bolsheviks.

    nonsense: the thief did not accept ANY national outskirts: they were sent by Little Russia, Georgia, Armenia, Sr Asia, Finland, Bessarabia, etc.

    writes the famous "Declaration of the Rights of the Peoples of Russia ", and at the same time gives the actual good of independence Finland, speaking at the congress of the Finnish Social Democrats in Helsingfors.

    the go-ahead was given to ALL nat. okoainam, it was after this betrayal of Russia that they were proclaimed independent statesRECOGNIZED by the Bolsheviks-UNR, Georgian Republic,, Estonia, Latvia, etc.

    Then, not giving a damn about their own recognition of independence, they won them with blood, but again they organized sovereign states - the Ukrainian SSR, the Georgian SSR, etc.

    WHAT did Russia actually get from this, except for the 70-year-old YARMA around the neck for the maintenance of these outskirts at its own expense (every THIRD earned Russian ruble was mercilessly taken away to feed the nationals who lived many times better than the Russians)?

    And she got more minus 5 million km2 of territory and the borders of the 17th century and the divided Russian people, continuous collectivization (in Georgia there was no trace of it), blown up and destroyed monuments of culture, Glory and history of the Russian people.
    Who could then suppose how this independence will turn out to Soviet Russia and Petrograd-Leningrad.

    Yes, all normal people understood that the creation and recognition of the state - "republics" will inevitably lead to their exit, like the Finns.
    II All-Russian Congress of Soviets

    What is interesting is that until the morning of October 26, before the message about the arrest of the interim government arrived at the congress, Trotsky alone spoke and fought, and Ulyanov ... cowardly hid and only after that he got outyes
    in October, which immediately, in Lenin's way, it was decided to call the socialist revolution
    No, it was only at the end of the 1930s that the name Great October was established in Soviet official historiography. socialist revolution, before that there was a thief.
    1. Obliterator
      Obliterator 21 February 2021 14: 27
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich
      No, it was only at the end of the 1930s that the name Great October Socialist Revolution was established in Soviet official historiography, before that there was a thief.

      And the main characters who organized all this were simply called a coup.
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 21 February 2021 18: 53
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      nonsense: the thief did not accept ANY national outskirts: they were sent by Little Russia, Georgia, Armenia, Sr Asia, Finland, Bessarabia, etc.

      And some assured that all of those listed had separated from Russia only by a Bolshevik decree ...
      Quote: Olgovich
      were proclaimed independent states, RECOGNIZED by the Bolsheviks-UNR, the Georgian Republic, Estonia, Latvia, etc.

      So there was a reverse recognition too? Bolshevik government? And all these independents were recognized by the whites - but where to go? Not only that: Krasnov announced "Cossackia" and sought its recognition from the Germans, then from the Bolsheviks. Didn't succeed anywhere ...
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world 21 February 2021 09: 51
    +2
    The author did not mention that it was Trotsky who brought the Bolsheviks-Bund to the party. And his fighting squads.
    1. ironic
      ironic 21 February 2021 19: 33
      -3
      In the beginning there was a word ... tfu you, i.e. the tsarist secret police and its plans to exterminate Russian Jewry from the inside by exporting the revolution to the enemy's camp, Germany. Like in one fell swoop ... but it didn't work.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • ironic
    ironic 21 February 2021 13: 47
    -3
    To justify Trotsky, as a person, one can cite only one thing, he himself was a sincerely mistaken and utterly deceived left extremist. That should be a lesson to all left extremists, but not for the future.
    1. Vlad world
      Vlad world 21 February 2021 16: 55
      +1
      So you can Justify any "Napoleon" from the chambers. They are poor things. They sincerely believe.
      Truth and harm from them compared to "justified" as "human".
      1. ironic
        ironic 21 February 2021 19: 18
        -2
        They are really sick people who are not responsible for their actions before the law. We are not considering this case.
  • Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 21 February 2021 16: 08
    +3
    The threat of arrest, exile and such timely return - a whole set of whists for Lenin.

    Historians have been crushed today if they have slipped to the point of applying card terms to historical facts. In 1917, the Bolsheviks did not play preference, but made History ..
    1. ironic
      ironic 21 February 2021 19: 19
      -1
      And they did it.
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 21 February 2021 23: 50
        +6
        Quote: ironic
        And they did it.

        Your irony is out of place. The Bolsheviks opened the Great era of communism, which was dreamed of by millions of disadvantaged people in the world and for which the future lies.
        1. ironic
          ironic 21 February 2021 23: 54
          -3
          Thank Gd that McCarthy shut it down.
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 22 February 2021 09: 41
            +4
            Quote: ironic
            Thank Gd that McCarthy shut it down.

            It's not for long. Still to come. One cannot argue against the law of development of society.
            1. ironic
              ironic 22 February 2021 13: 47
              -3
              It's forever. These are not the laws of the development of society, these are the laws of a riot of redness, more characteristic of the corresponding "smaller brothers".
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 22 February 2021 18: 19
                +5
                Quote: ironic
                It's forever. These are not the laws of the development of society, these are the laws of a riot of redness, more characteristic of the corresponding "smaller brothers".

                Sorry, but this indicates your lack of education.
                1. ironic
                  ironic 22 February 2021 19: 39
                  -1
                  Or that all of you, who are different from your beliefs, consider little education.
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 22 February 2021 23: 56
                    +3
                    Quote: ironic
                    Or that all of you, who are different from your beliefs, consider little education.

                    No, just by your comments you showed that you are not unfamiliar with the laws and categories of materialistic dialectics
                    1. ironic
                      ironic 23 February 2021 14: 56
                      0
                      Well, of course, otherwise I was not taught them in the system of Soviet higher education and I did not pass on them more than successfully tests and exams.
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 24 February 2021 17: 49
                        +5
                        Quote: ironic
                        Well, of course, otherwise I was not taught them in the system of Soviet higher education and I did not pass on them more than successfully tests and exams.

                        It means that they taught poorly, since you cannot apply them in life.
                      2. ironic
                        ironic 24 February 2021 21: 27
                        +1
                        I was taught by the so-called automatic, thought otherwise. It's just that I apply the knowledge gained to protect my life from the destructive influence of the postulates of this harmful paradigm.
                      3. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 25 February 2021 01: 05
                        +3
                        Quote: ironic
                        It's just that I apply the knowledge gained to protect my life from the destructive influence of the postulates of this harmful paradigm.

                        Well, good luck with that. Fortunately, there are people who think differently.
                      4. ironic
                        ironic 25 February 2021 13: 52
                        -1
                        Their happiness is built on the principle of the proverb that my late grandmother loved - "you can crush a hedgehog on someone else's ass". In addition, most of the provisions of this dealectic are also plagiarism with bad intentions, in contrast to the original sources.
                      5. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 26 February 2021 00: 07
                        +4
                        On the contrary, it is your ego - to substitute others, and those of whom I speak are risking their lives for the sake of others.
                      6. ironic
                        ironic 28 February 2021 13: 16
                        +1
                        Well, yes, yours is to substitute and concoct slander against others, such as they say they have framed. Yes, yes, I know who I am usually talking about, as the famous wise king Batiushko used to say in ancient times - "there are the righteous, under whose deeds it is necessary for them as villains" (C).
                      7. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 February 2021 13: 37
                        +2
                        Yes, yes, I know who I am usually talking about, as the famous wise king Batiushko used to say in ancient times

                        O wise "gudgeon", read M. Gorky "And the loons also groan - they, the loons, do not have access to the enjoyment of the battle of life: the thunder of blows frightens them."
                      8. ironic
                        ironic 28 February 2021 17: 39
                        0
                        You will not read this, because it is Aramaic. Rabbi Eliezer said - come and see, they have no knowledge of the Covenant at all ... and naked spirits, called harmful ones, rule over them and kill them (souls).
                      9. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 1 March 2021 00: 23
                        +3
                        J.-J. Russo: "Devotion ... is opium for the soul; it invigorates, revitalizes and sustains when taken little by little; in too strong doses lulls, or leads to madness, or kills."
                        Feels like you've caught too much.
                      10. ironic
                        ironic 1 March 2021 19: 20
                        0
                        ... "Only insane people tend not to admit the wisdom of God" - John Chrysostom.
                        It feels like there is not even a drop in you, a complete drought, including the fundamentals of the moral aspect that religious paradigms teach.
                      11. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 1 March 2021 21: 18
                        +2
                        Quote: ironic
                        taught by religious paradigms.

                        Religion is the opium of the people. In the age of the scientific and technological revolution, it is a shame to be a believer
                      12. ironic
                        ironic 1 March 2021 21: 24
                        0
                        Tell this to numerous believing scientists, including quantum physicists, who are especially fond of joking that after a certain level you need to either go to a leadership job or to a corresponding temple. By the way, I'm not too religious by the standards of orthodox believers, but only a true idolater can know that the probability of the existence of the visible universe is less than one divided by Avogadro's number and believe that it was organized by itself.
                      13. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 2 March 2021 01: 06
                        +2
                        Quote: ironic
                        Tell this to the many believing scholars

                        These are not scientists, their number is scanty.
                      14. ironic
                        ironic 2 March 2021 20: 19
                        0
                        "Science has left the question of God completely open" - Nobel laureate in physics, Max Born.
                        And of course you decide who they will be, how do you count? Well, yes, who would have doubted. The militant atheist idolater truly believes that he is his own boch, comrade and ... drinking companion!

                        PS A minus from me is not for your opinion, but for conceit and snobbery.
                      15. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 2 March 2021 23: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: ironic
                        PS A minus from me is not for your opinion, but for conceit and snobbery.

                        Me from your minus is neither cold nor hot, tk. you are just a dark person.
                      16. ironic
                        ironic 4 March 2021 16: 56
                        0
                        No, I am an adequate person, but you are just dark and not only in the general educational aspect. Therefore, you do not care what the minus is.
                      17. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 6 March 2021 20: 44
                        0
                        Quote: ironic
                        No, I'm an adequate person,

                        All those who are inadequate say so, and all believers believe that they are not dark.
                      18. ironic
                        ironic 9 March 2021 13: 43
                        0
                        Well, yes, here you are, as inadequate and say. I didn’t say anything about myself at all, but I did say so about you, and what’s wrong? It's like that.
                      19. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 9 March 2021 16: 01
                        +1
                        Quote: ironic
                        Well, yes, here you are, as inadequate and say. I didn’t say anything about myself at all, but I did say so about you, and what’s wrong? It's like that.


                        What's this called? Do not believe your eyes !?
                        Quote: ironic
                        Quote: ironic
                        No, I'm an adequate person,
                      20. ironic
                        ironic 9 March 2021 18: 13
                        0
                        Okay, fixing it. I spoke about myself once in a fairly general definition. What has changed fundamentally?
                      21. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 9 March 2021 21: 33
                        +1
                        Quote: ironic
                        What has changed fundamentally?

                        Nothing, as they were inadequate, and remained so.
                      22. ironic
                        ironic 10 March 2021 00: 01
                        0
                        ... Granny bought some soap and a washcloth. Our song is good, start over.
                        How do you know about this? You don’t know what it is.
                      23. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 10 March 2021 18: 02
                        +1
                        Quote: ironic
                        ... Granny bought some soap and a washcloth. Our song is good, start over.
                        How do you know about this? You don’t know what it is.

                        Read yourself.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Quote: ironic
                        No, I'm an adequate person,

                        Quote: ironic
                        Well, yes, here you are, as inadequate and say. I didn’t say anything about myself at all, but I did say so about you, and what’s wrong? It's like that.

                        Quote: ironic
                        Okay, fixing it. I spoke about myself once in a fairly general definition.
                      24. ironic
                        ironic 10 March 2021 20: 17
                        0
                        I read it. I did not find anything inadequate, moreover, how the person who made a mistake got better. But your collection of "proverbs and sayings" from me, as if it gives off mania.
                      25. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 10 March 2021 20: 52
                        +1
                        Quote: ironic
                        ... your collection of "proverbs and sayings" from me, as if it gives off mania.

                        I wanted to help you realize yourself, but ... Alas! It's useless ... So goodbye, tk. it is boring to continue further, and there is no point - no one reads us.
                      26. ironic
                        ironic 10 March 2021 20: 58
                        0
                        You are really boring ... Who will read this? It's like a drunk to the radio, sing and sing ...
  • sniperino
    sniperino 9 March 2021 18: 40
    0
    Quote: Alexander Green
    In the age of the scientific and technological revolution, it is a shame to be a believer
    The century of the scientific and technological revolution has thrown pseudoscientific atheism into the annals of history. And you behave like a fanatic, blindly believing in the absence of God, putting billions of believers below yourself. Trotskyist?
  • paco.soto
    paco.soto 22 February 2021 01: 27
    0


    Neutral opinion: scratching his beard, ya is a meticulous old man ™ and instead of reading the forum, he began to google. Found a very interesting rarity, Oruel is resting:
    Conjuring by Lenin and Trotsky (The story of the appearance of one conspiracy) © 1924!
    https://orpk.org/posts/28
    1. ironic
      ironic 22 February 2021 13: 58
      -1
      Affgeeeeee! belay I made a bookmark.
  • Bashibuzuk1
    Bashibuzuk1 22 February 2021 19: 33
    0
    Somehow modestly, the author kept silent about simple things. L. Trotsky arrived in January 1917 from New York, where he spent a year studying at the world Zionist center ... ... ... Creation of the Cheka, the father of the "Red Terror" (the destruction of the best representatives of the Republic of Ingushetia - doctors, teachers, engineers, military men, clergymen - this is an incomplete list of the acts of the "Father of the World Revolution").
    War communism, surplus appropriation is also the brainchild of Leon Trotsky.
    Yes, he was an agitator from God, dragging the masses with him. But the uprisings of Muravyov and Kochubei were against Trotsky.
    Was it not the officers and part of the generals of the General Staff of the Republic of Ingushetia who decided the issues of building and forming the Red Army?
    You cannot compare two, different in style and skill, antipodes, evaluate them in terms of literary activity. You can judge them by their deeds. One created the USSR, a strong army and a strong economy, won the war.
    And the second ... the ice ax is still a small reward for everything he has done.
    And think for yourself- "the Russian people will be wood in the fire of the world revolution ..."
    Which one of you wants to burn in the form of firewood ??
    1. ivan2022
      ivan2022 23 February 2021 17: 13
      0
      Quote: Bashibuzuk1
      War communism, surplus appropriation is also the brainchild of Leon Trotsky.

      Provisional allocation began in 1916 by the decision of the State Duma, in order to pay off Russia's debts to the Entente with bread. And it was continued by Kerensky. And War Communism is a direct consequence of the martial law caused by the Civil War, the intervention and the creation in 1918 of the "patriotic armies" of Denikin, Kolchak and others. in the territories occupied by Germany (Ukraine and Pridonia) and Japan together with the USA (Primorye).

      Those who are especially "patriotic" demand "Military capitalism", that is, fascism. Just what you would like, isn't it?
  • ivan2022
    ivan2022 23 February 2021 16: 59
    0
    As we have this generally accepted elephant, the author "did not notice". It's more convenient to live and work this way.
    The Bolsheviks received legislative power in the country already when they received a majority in the Soviets, that is, after the suppression of the Kornilov rebellion, in September 1917... And only because of this they had a majority of votes not just at some "2nd Congress", but at the 2nd All-Russian Congress of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies.

    If everything developed legally, no rebellion would be required. The 2nd Congress was empowered to change or appoint the Government, just as the 1st Congress in June legalized Kerensky's Government.
    What happens in such cases, we know from the experience of October 1993. But in 1917 the Soviets had their own power structure - the Red Guard. Therefore, 1993 did not work out then. Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin are not R. Khasbulatov "with comrades". The Red Guard suppressed the Kornilov rebellion in August, and on October 25 arrested the Kerensky government, which did not want to obey the legislators.
    This is the whole point. The rest is "liber-patriotic" White Guard quirks.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 2 March 2021 12: 03
    +1
    Quote: boris epstein
    There was such an organization, the South Russian Center. Its leaders were former owners of plants and factories who emigrated to Europe - Ryabushinsky, Putilov, Obukhov ... And they were sponsored by the American millionaire (now an analogue of a billionaire) Henry Deterding. So this organization, with the hands of the remaining engineers and technicians, was engaged in technological sabotage. After the launch of the new Mariupol metallurgical plant "Azovstal" built in the USSR, blast furnaces were put on, twisting rags into the hot blast squeegees. Or they rearranged the decimal point when calculating an explosive charge for coal mining in the city of Shakhty, Rostov Region, as a result of which people died and the mine was temporarily stopped. There were Aleksandra Koreiko who redirected and robbed trains with food, raw materials, equipment. This is from the same opera. - after all, they also received information from the South Russian Center. And there were a lot of such acts of sabotage until their own Soviet engineering cadres grew and the Cheka defeated all this on the territory of the USSR. Example-Shakhty business.
    And there were other specialists who recognized the Soviet power. And no one repressed them. It was they who, on the instructions of Lenin, developed the GOELRO plan, it was they who built the first hydroelectric power station-Volkhovskaya.