Military Review

Bosporan Kingdom. In the cauldron of nomadic migrations

100

Scythians in battle (according to M.V. Gorelikov)


Completion fratricidal civil war and the confirmation of Eumelus on the throne did not at all mean the end of the troubled times in the life of the Bosporus kingdom. The defeat of the Scythian tribes and their retreat under the blows of the Sarmatians was another link in the chain of events that provoked one of the most serious crises in the life of the Hellenic states of the Northern Black Sea region.

The fall of Great Scythia could not remain unanswered. The tribes who did not know defeat were not going to voluntarily leave for the outskirts stories.


Source: wikipedia.org

And the Scythians answered ...


In the middle of the XNUMXrd century BC. e. in the area of ​​Feodosia, the fire of war broke out. Detachments of nomads over and over again made devastating raids on the rural regions of the Bosporus and Chersonesos kingdoms. The hastily erected fortifications in the area of ​​agricultural settlements did not give the desired result, and the inhabitants of the periphery tried to escape under the walls of the cities, which, with varying success, restrained the onslaught of the barbarians.

Archaeological finds partly make it possible to understand how disastrous the situation of the Hellenes in the Crimea was at that time. All fortifications and forts found were burned. In the settlement of the Golden Plateau and in one of the necropolises of the Crimean Azov region, scientists found skeletons of people, in whose backs were found the tips of Scythian arrows.

Not only the countryside suffered, but also the cities. During the excavations of Nympheus, a passage in the defensive wall was discovered, almost completely covered with large stones, and stone cores and tips of Scythian arrows were found in the vicinity of the fortifications themselves.

The city of Pormphius, apparently, was taken by storm. And partially destroyed. After the restoration, it was turned by the Greeks into a powerful fortress with walls reaching two and a half meters in width. The restructuring and strengthening of cities as a whole was observed everywhere in the Crimean part of the Bosporus kingdom of that time.

These events suggest that by the 70s of the III century BC. e. a real war was raging in the country. Moreover, the Scythian detachments, this time were not limited to simple robber raids. Trying to burn and destroy all traces of the Hellenes' presence in these lands, they, apparently, waged war not so much for the sake of enrichment as for the sake of reclaiming living space.


Examples of Scythian arrowheads. Source: “Military history and military affairs of the Cimmerian Bosporus. Yu.A. Vinogradov, V.A. Goroncharovsky "

An important point confirming the seriousness of the intentions of the Scythians to dislodge the Greeks from their lands is the fact that only systemic, continuous raids on the settlements of the Bosporus could have such a significant destructive effect on agriculture. Individual attacks by enemy units could not fundamentally destroy the economy.

According to Victor Davis Hanson (scientist, teacher of classical and military history at the Hoover Institute), only prolonged instability, heavy tax burden, robbery and loss of labor could permanently damage the usual way of life of the Greeks.

It is also worth mentioning the Asian part of the Bosporus (Taman Peninsula).

The situation there was, if not better, then not worse than in the Crimea. Despite close contact with sedentary barbarian tribes and nomadic Sarmatians, none of the Greek cities of Taman was destroyed. At this time, active fortification construction was not even noted here.

There is reason to believe that before the civil war of the sons of Perisad, clashes between nomads and Hellenes took place here, but by the middle of the XNUMXrd century BC. e., apparently, relations between peoples have stabilized and were more of a partnership, mutually beneficial nature.

Probably, the Sarmatians, tired of the exhausting war with the Scythians, more or less calmed down and began the peaceful development of the conquered territories, preferring not to break the ties established with the Bosporan kingdom and be content with receiving gifts and tributes.


Graffiti of battle scenes on one of the walls of the destroyed sanctuary of Nymphaeus. Source: “Military history and military affairs of the Cimmerian Bosporus. Yu.A. Vinogradov, V.A. Goroncharovsky "

"A breath of fresh air" and relative calm in the northern lands of the Black Sea


Second half of III - early II century BC e. was distinguished by a significant decrease in the Scythian onslaught on the Bosporus kingdom.

It is difficult to say what caused such changes: perhaps the nomads ran out of resources to continue the war, or maybe the reason for the lull was the internal political changes in the Scythian environment and the emergence of a new state formation in the foothills of the Crimea - Scythia Minor.

At this time, the rate of growth of settlements in the Asian part of the Bosporus (Taman Peninsula) is recorded and, albeit not so intensive, but a significant process of restoration of settlements in the Crimean part. Still under the threat of a Scythian strike, the rural settlements of the Crimea were built up with an obligatory look at the events of the recent past. Now villages were erected mainly on coastal promontories, cliffs or on significant heights, with the obligatory presence of fortifications in the form of walls and towers.

Despite the fact that by the middle of the II century BC. e. the main buyer of the Bosporus grain - Athens significantly weakened and could no longer acquire goods in the same volumes, cattle breeding, fishing and winemaking were actively developing on the territory of the kingdom. Naturally, there was an increase in the production of building materials and ceramics (tiles, amphoras, dishes). Their organization can be judged by the remnants of production buildings and the stamps with which the products were marked.

If earlier the foreign trade of the Bosporus was based mainly on the export of grain, then after the crisis shocks, economic ties with the barbarian population of the Northern Black Sea region expanded significantly. The main centers of trade, as before, were Tanais and Phanagoria.

The Bosporan and Sarmatian relations for some time had a predominantly allied character. As was the case with the Scythian tribes earlier, the Greek kings relied heavily on the support of nomadic tribes, while not forgetting about the mercenary contingents and detachments of aristocratic cavalry.

Until a certain moment, this was enough to defend their own interests. The situation began to change, including when relations with the Sarmatians changed the vector.

Hordes of the Great Steppe and a new crisis


In the middle of the II century BC, hopes for a stable development of the Northern Black Sea region finally collapsed.

Since about this time, more and more groups of nomads have been rising from the depths of Asia. These movements led to the final destabilization in the steppes of the Crimean and Taman peninsulas. This was probably due to the fact that none of the emerging tribes could completely dominate the rest, and in these conditions it was extremely difficult for the ancient states to defend their independence and choose the most correct development strategy.

New nomads quickly reached the territories of the Bosporus Kingdom. A number of scientists believe that the impetus for such a massive movement was associated with the migration of Yazygs, Urgs, Roxolans and, possibly, other not yet studied tribes. Following them, newcomers appeared in the steppes - the Satarhs and Aspurgians (the latter played a very important role in the life of the Bosporus).

In parallel with the new nomadic tribes in the political arena, Little Scythia in the Crimea is becoming more noticeable. Tsar Skilur, who was established at that time on the throne, unleashed an exhausting and difficult struggle for the subordination of the Chersonesos state.

Military actions between them led to the fact that already in the second quarter of the II century BC. e. there was another destruction of Greek rural settlements in the Northwest Crimea. The ancient Greek writer Polien notes that in the war with the Scythians, Chersonesus called for the help of the Sarmatians. Perhaps there was even a military alliance between them. The writer says that a certain Sarmatian queen Amaga with a group of selected warriors made an unexpected blow to the palace of the Scythian king, killing him, and returned the occupied lands to the Greeks.


Examples of Scythian weapons. 1. A gold plaque in the form of a Scythian horseman from the Kul-Oba mound; 2-3. Bronze arrowheads; 4. Dagger; 5-7. Swords; 8, 10, 11. Copy tips; 9. Specs of copies; 12. Tip of a dart; 13. Scaly carapace; 14. Bronze helmet of the Kuban type. Source: “Military history and military affairs of the Cimmerian Bosporus. Yu.A. Vinogradov, V.A. Goroncharovsky "

Whatever it was, but the Sarmatian-Chersonesos union turned out to be fragile.

In the end, the Greeks were unable to resist the Scythian onslaught. Archaeological excavations show that in the middle of the XNUMXnd century BC. e. Scythian fortresses were built on the ruins of some Greek fortifications. Moreover, for Chersonesos Tauride every year the situation was getting worse. By the end of the century, the possessions of the Hellenes were limited only to the immediate vicinity of the city-state.

For the Bosporus state, the destabilization of the situation in the Northern Black Sea region also had a very serious impact.

The start of this crisis period was probably associated with some kind of internal political changes, after which a certain Hygiene appears on the political arena. If the connection of the previous rulers of the Bosporus with the Spartokid clan did not raise any special questions, then the opinions of the researchers regarding it differ greatly.

It is also curious that on the few coins found with his image, Hygienont has the title of archon (ancient Greek - chief, ruler), and not a king, although the royal title for the rulers of the Bosporus was by that time a common thing. The same gold and silver coins depict Hygienont galloping on horseback, which, according to scientists, may mean some important victory for the kingdom, won by him on the battlefields. Nevertheless, this success (if there really was one) could no longer save the country from new catastrophic upheavals.


Image of the Hygienont on a gold coin. Source: wikipedia.org

According to the testimony of the ancient Greek historian Strabo, in those times of crisis, all possessions of the Bosporus in the Kuban region were completely lost on the territory of the kingdom.

Already by the middle of the XNUMXnd century BC. e. most of the Greek settlements of the Taman Peninsula were destroyed and burned. The Meotian tribes left the kingdom at the same time.

It is also interesting that to date, archaeologists have not found a single burial mound dating from the second half of the XNUMXnd - early XNUMXst centuries BC. e. This situation is considered unique for the region, since from the XNUMXth century BC. e. this has never happened here.

The lack of rich burials is another confirmation of how difficult and unstable the situation was in the Asian part of the Bosporus at that time.

It is worth noting the opinion of some researchers who believe that the crisis of the period under review is associated, first of all, not with external intrusions into the habitat of the Bosporus, but with the internal social struggle of the state, expressed in the desire of a number of subordinate tribes for independence. However, this version of the development of events did not find a wide circle of supporters.

On the European side of the kingdom, destabilization manifested itself later in a slightly different form. There was no massive destruction of settlements, however, according to Strabo, an active activity of sea robbers - Achaeans, ridge and geniochs - began near the coast.

“These peoples live by sea robbery, for which they have small, narrow and light boats with a capacity of up to 25 people, rarely up to 30; among the Greeks they are called "kamaras" ...

Equipping flotilla such "Kamar" and attacking either merchant ships or even some country or city, they dominated the sea. "

After the campaigns, they returned to their native places (north-west of the Caucasus), but since they did not have convenient parking, they loaded the boats on their shoulders and carried them into the forests in which they lived. Before the new robberies, in the same way, pirates brought Camaras to the shore.

Describing the specifics of the life of sea robbers, Strabo notes that sometimes they were assisted by the Bosporan rulers, providing parking in the harbors and allowing them to buy provisions and sell the loot. Considering that in the earlier times of the life of the kingdom, Eumel fought mercilessly against piracy, it can be concluded that the situation in the region has changed in the most radical way. And the kings of the Bosporus were forced to take such measures.

The economic crisis that followed external shocks had catastrophic consequences, which affected, first of all, the state of the treasury of the Bosporus kingdom. The lack of financial resources naturally affected the country's defense capability. There were not enough funds for the maintenance of the mercenary army, the squads of neighboring barbarian tribes also did not want to defend the interests of the Spartokids for free, and, in general, friendly relations with the barbarian aristocracy always cost the Bosporus considerable funds. In the second half of the II century. BC e. the money needed for this was no longer there.

As for the payment of tribute and the level of relations between the Bosporians and their neighbors, there is no consensus among scientists today. Earlier in the writings of researchers there was an assumption that the tribute was paid to the Scythians. However, some experts are now inclined to believe that tribute and gifts were still paid to the Sarmatians.

The relationship between the Bosporus Kingdom and Scythia was based on other features.

The documents found and studied of that time suggest the closest alliance of the Hellenes with the Scythians. The record says that the husband of the then Scythian princess was a certain Heraclides, who was clearly not an ordinary Greek and had a high status position in the Bosporus kingdom.

The idea of ​​dynastic marriage can be confirmed by the fact that this case is not the only one in the recorded history of the kingdom. Quite the opposite. Already from the second quarter of the II century BC. e. there is a certain tradition of concluding dynastic Bosporan-Scythian marriages.

Probably, these actions were aimed at a joint confrontation with the aggressively minded Meoto-Sarmatian tribes of the Azov Sea, which significantly changed their vision in relations with neighboring Greek states.

By itself, the union of the Bosporus kingdom with Lesser Scythia did not mean at all that the Bosporians did not pay tribute to the Scythians. Most likely, it was expressed in some of the hidden forms: gifts, benefits, special honors, etc.

Сonclusion


The period from the middle of the III - the end of the II century BC. e. for the Bosporus kingdom turned into a series of severe crises and events that largely influenced the fate of the region.

Despite all the attempts of the ruling dynasty of Spartokids to retain power, wars, internecine conflicts and the invasion of new groups of nomads led to the fact that the last representative of the ancient clan Perisad V transferred (through formal adoption) power to the Pontic king Mithridates VI Eupator. (We will definitely tell you about it in subsequent articles).

Bosporan Kingdom. In the cauldron of nomadic migrations
Image of Perisad V on a gold coin. Source: wikipedia.org

The clan that ruled for over 300 years collapsed.

Thus opening a new page in the history of the Bosporus.

Sources:
1. V.F. Gaidukevich "Bosporus Kingdom" Moscow. Leningrad. 1949
2. Yu.A. Vinogradov, V.A. Goroncharovsky "Military history of the Bosporus kingdom" Publishing house "Lomonosov". 2017
3. V.M. Zubar, A.S. Rusyaev "On the shores of the Cimmerian Bosporus" Publishing house "Stilos". 2004
4. Strabo. "Geography" Book XII "Reprint reproduction of the text of the 1964 edition" "Ladomir". 1994
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  1. kalibr
    kalibr 21 January 2021 18: 26
    +16
    How pleasant it was to read all this, you have no idea ...
    1. Fat
      Fat 21 January 2021 19: 27
      +15
      Great article. I support. Cleverly, weighed, clearly ... On facts, and not on the devil will break his legs.
      Right! It is necessary to figure it out and you poured your "stream". It was very interesting, really. Thank you.
    2. PhilipKDick
      21 January 2021 19: 31
      +13
      Hello. Thank you.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 21 January 2021 20: 51
        +12
        I support the guys - I read it with pleasure !!!
        Never climbed into the depths of the history of the Black Sea elliad, only to the very top.
        Thank you again!
      2. Crowe
        Crowe 21 January 2021 21: 48
        +12
        Quote: PhilipKDick
        Thank you.

        I remember that at your first article I still grumbled a little in an old man's way about the lack of graphic illustration of the material for myself, but now, with all my desire (and there is none at all) I can't! Everything, as it is convenient and pleasant for me for perception, with pictures - I read it, looked it up, read it on! Thank you! Do not disappear, write more often!
      3. Alex013
        Alex013 21 January 2021 22: 25
        +10
        Thank you so much for the article! Everything is clear, well-reasoned arguments. The topic is very interesting.
  2. antivirus
    antivirus 21 January 2021 19: 42
    +7
    Was there a city "Walls"? ........................................... ....... daughter of Chersonesos
  3. Catfish
    Catfish 21 January 2021 21: 08
    +14
    I agree with everyone, it was not only interesting to read, but also really pleasant.
    Thanks to Egor for the quality work. smile
    I had a chance to work with archaeologists in the Ancient Chersonesos, our team went under water, lifted ceramics, made schematic drawings of walls and wells in the Karantinnaya Bay. But the most interesting thing was in the Streletskaya Bay, closed from civilians, where, right next to the fuel and lubricants, under water, they stumbled upon the ruins of a previously unknown settlement, it is almost opposite the OVR post, they raised a lot of ceramics and burnt tiles. Apparently there was a separate farm and it was still burned down. We went under water from the naval WFD under the flag of the auxiliary forces of the fleet, the cap moored to the fuels and lubricants berth and pretended to be pumping diesel fuel, and we went under water, we did not hang out flags about the work, everything was illegal, otherwise you will be tortured to agree)). While we were rummaging around in the fairway, roadstead trawls were hovering over us here and there, but no one noticed anything. It was in the 76 - 77th year, oh, and then we sat in the cockpit with the team, however, having already got up to the pier in Karantinka. drinks
  4. depressant
    depressant 21 January 2021 21: 19
    +12
    Sarmatians ... How beautiful it sounds! They spoke the Iranian dialect, matriarchy, Amazons, and where they went, no one knows.
    The Poles disagree!
    The Polish nobles considered and, apparently, continue to consider themselves the direct descendants of the Sarmatians - isn't this the origin of Polish arrogance?)))))
    It got to the point that in the 17th-19th centuries, painters were ordered portraits in Sarmatian costumes - that's, they say, how ancient our origin is!
    1. Fat
      Fat 21 January 2021 21: 38
      +5
      Lyudimla Yakovlevna. Please give me a link. I’ll dry up if I don’t see. Sarmatian costumes! Cool!
      1. depressant
        depressant 21 January 2021 21: 49
        +11
        Elementary! )))
        You type in Yandex the line "Who are the Sarmatians?", And you are given several sites, each of which contains Sarmatian outfits: southern, home, combat. The Sarmatians appeared as a collection of tribes in the 7th century BC, and their early costumes, of course, were distinguished by minimalism. Apparently when they were hanging out in the south. In other words, they walked half naked. Nice but impractical. And later ... Let's just say, medieval knights are resting! There is completely flexible, comfortable chain mail, and the horses were literally wrapped in chain mail. The head and legs of the animal remained unprotected.
        1. Fat
          Fat 21 January 2021 22: 09
          +5
          not destiny to lose weight recourse
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 21 January 2021 22: 44
          +4
          Quote: depressant
          You type in Yandex the line "Who are the Sarmatians?", And you are given several sites, each of which contains Sarmatian outfits: southern, home, combat.

          Interesting: where do they get all this? I suspect that archaeologists are crying with black envy. wassat
          And about the Poles-from-Sarmatians: ours then also distorted this idea (Synopsis), and why are we worse?
          Yes, we are Scythians, yes Asians, with slanted and cunning eyes. hi
        3. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 22 January 2021 11: 28
          +5
          Briefly on the Sarmatians
          Quote: depressant
          Let's just say that medieval knights are resting! There is completely flexible, comfortable chain mail,

          The Sarmatians have 5 types of armor: in addition to chain mail - scaly, lamellar, combined and cuirasses, the latter are clearly of Greek production (purchases or rather trophies). Oddly enough, but there are very few archaeological finds of Sarmatian armor, and in the Middle Sarmatian period (I-II centuries AD) there are practically none, apparently they did not put the armor in the burial.

          Quote: depressant
          and the horses were literally wrapped in a chain mail blanket
          Archaeologically not recorded, comes from iconographic images of Sarmatian horsemen from Trajan's column, now the "creativity" of the capital's masters of fine arts is seriously questioned, most likely the canon was applied, and not real reproduction.
          They looked something like this:

          their early costumes, of course, were minimalist.

          As for naked in the steppe - well, I don't know, it seems to me it's very cold there for that. As Kuzmich said from "Peculiarities of National Hunting": "- Who will let him out of the house naked?" laughing
    2. Alex013
      Alex013 21 January 2021 22: 29
      +10
      I agree with you. I also remembered the Poles) And so - there are many Sarmatian mounds - from Stavropol to Tambov ...
      1. depressant
        depressant 21 January 2021 23: 21
        +6
        So, you see what the matter is, colleagues. There is a scientific opinion that our Ossetians originated from the Sarmatians. It is not surprising, since at first the Sarmatians roamed in their carts, driving cattle from place to place between the Don and the Urals. But then they began to wander closer and closer to the southwest and, apparently, spread throughout eastern Europe. Moreover, they reached Rome! Reached and fought slightly with the Romans. And those, having a predilection for foot legions, were extremely impressed by the Sarmatian cavalry and, deciding to get hold of their own, instead of continuing the skirmishes, they offered the Sarmatians to go to their service. Sarmatians and went. For not wandering about the steppes, trampled by cows. As a result, serious Sarmatian equestrian units settled in Rome and disappeared into the local population. This is a historical fact.
        Therefore, it can be assumed that another part of the Sarmatians reached the area that later became Poland and settled there. Otherwise, where did the Sarmatians go? They disappeared and that's it. Why do they need steppes, if after a millennium they can turn into proud gentry? Such a prospect will make anyone settle down)))
        1. Fat
          Fat 21 January 2021 23: 32
          +5
          Umurtia. Eyes. Excavation type "Sarmatsky"

          The excavation itself can be accessed without hindrance, as a tourist. This pleasure is only worth a trip by bus and another twenty or thirty rubles per view, as archaeologists carefully remove the soil centimeter by centimeter in order to extract another incomprehensible shard from there.
          In the summer Idnakar looks like this. The Udmurts are very proud of this settlement, consider it the property of the republic and tell legends about it.
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 22 January 2021 11: 52
            +2
            Quote: Thick
            Umurtia. Eyes. Excavation type "Sarmatsky"

            Good afternoon, is Idnakar really a Sarmatian settlement?
            I thought it was Finno-Ugric.
        2. Fat
          Fat 21 January 2021 23: 39
          +3
          For our ala! drinks
  5. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 11: 03
    +4
    Thanks to the author, good article, sorry it came out in the evening, I just read it today. sad
    I would like to take this opportunity to ask my colleagues one question that is directly related to the topic of the article. Scythians and Sarmatians - how do they differ, except for the name? For example, it threw me in a loop of time in those distant times, I was driving a moped across the steppe and I saw a man galloping on a horse, followed by three more, clearly they wanted to kill. Let's say that since childhood I don't like Sarmatians and I like Scythians, but I don't know how to distinguish them. How can I choose who to help if, for example, I have a marmot hunting rifle with me?
    Auto RU.
    The question may seem unexpected, but still I really want to ask it. Tell me, Yegor, why do you think this series of publications should be of interest to a wide range of readers? The question is removed if you count only on fans of "this business" (I mean history) in any of its manifestations - they just gathered here in the comments, but if you are counting on something more, that is, you want to capture a slightly larger audience, it may be worth giving some explanations at the beginning of the articles, why do you think the topic is interesting and important? Or maybe you can think of something else?
    I don't really want to see the fruits of your labors and efforts with fifteen comments below them, as I did with the cycle about Yaroslav Vsevolodovich. You have good materials, interesting, moderately academic, it will be a pity if only "for the elite" will remain.
    1. PhilipKDick
      22 January 2021 11: 12
      +4
      Hello.
      Despite the fact that I would like to attract more readers, and in the future (which would be quite nice), to receive some income from writing articles, I still consider the development of writing skills and structuring the materials with which I work as a priority of publications.

      Unfortunately, I myself am not a specialized historian and have no professional relationship with historical materials. I am an engineer. In the field of fire safety.

      So far, just studying journalism.

      Regarding the first part of the question about the difference between Scythians and Sarmatians, unfortunately, I cannot tell you. I have only a superficial knowledge of these groups (within the framework of interaction with the Bosporus).

      Thanks for your comment and opinion.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 12: 43
        +3
        Quote: PhilipKDick
        Hello.

        Hello. smile hi
        I beg your pardon, but I have such a feature - sometimes I forget about formalities in e-mails. I think the exchange of messages on sites like this is just friendly communication of initially equal interlocutors, and every time I appear in a particular thread, I just forget about the ceremonies. The same applies to addressing "you" with a small letter. Don't consider this a sign of disrespect.
        Quote: PhilipKDick
        Unfortunately, I myself am not a specialized historian

        Here we are almost all like that, so there is nothing to regret. smile For example, I am a lawyer by training. smile
        I have one more question for you, in relation to the Bosporus kingdom itself. I was here, sorting out the symbolism of the Rurik, came across a mention that the symbol of the bident used by the Rurik (article in my profile) has roots in the Bosporus kingdom, from where the Khazars inherited it, and from them has already passed to Russia. So it became interesting to me: what did the Bosporan bident look like, how and by whom was it used, in what period, what is its origin? Have you come across anything about this?
        1. PhilipKDick
          22 January 2021 13: 01
          +2
          Regarding the regalia and symbols of the Bosporus kingdom, he did not intently deal with the issue. There is a lot of material and many diverging points of view. I made a note to myself, I'll figure it out.
          Also, closer to the summer months, I plan to go on a trip to museums and, if possible, archaeological complexes. Maybe I will learn more about the question.

          On the issue of forms of treatment and messages, I have no complaints or objections. wink I'm just used to writing like that. lol
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 22 January 2021 14: 30
        +4
        Don't be shy, Yegor! Here you can count people with a history education on one hand, and even more professionals!
        By the way, you have a mistake in your caption under the first illustration, the author's surname is Gorelik.
        Thank you for the article!
        1. PhilipKDick
          22 January 2021 14: 55
          +2
          Had seen. Thank you. Typo in the name of Mikhail Viktorovich fool
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 22 January 2021 15: 00
            +1
            It happens. Meanwhile, V.O. Shpakovsky (kalibr) was friends with him.
    2. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 22 January 2021 11: 13
      +2
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Scythians and Sarmatians - how do they differ, except for the name?

      Different tribes, respectively, each with its own material complex, have things-markers by which burials are identified.
      But the early Sarmatians (II-I centuries BC) with the late Scythians, at least in terms of the complex of weapons, almost do not differ: short swords and daggers, iron socketed arrowheads, spearheads and darts with a long sleeve and a diamond-shaped feather, a bow of the Scythian type. A characteristic feature of the Sarmatians of this period is the silver or bronze falars (plaques) that adorned the horse harness.
      So it is easy to confuse, but only for a modern person, they did not confuse each other in any way. hi
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 22 January 2021 11: 31
        +5
        The early Sarmatians are all the same Savromatskaya culture 6-4 centuries BC
        Often the Prokhorovka culture of the 4th-2nd centuries BC is attached to the early ones.
        The early Sarmatians and Scythians are fundamentally different in defensive weapons. The Scythians have an order of magnitude more.
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 22 January 2021 11: 34
          +4
          Quote: Engineer
          The early Sarmatians are still the Sauromat culture of the 6-4th centuries BC.

          And the Savromats of the 6-4 centuries BC. is it Sarmatians? I understand that not everyone agrees with this.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 22 January 2021 11: 37
            +4
            History in relation to antiquity, and even non-literate peoples, relatively rarely uses the word exactly, as you know)))
            The genesis from the Savromats to the Sarmatians through Prokhorovskaya is quite traced. What more could you want?
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 12: 27
        +4
        Quote: Mihaylov
        So it's easy to get confused

        And, for example, did they have the same horses? Maybe the Scythian wool is thicker, and the Sarmatian have larger sizes? Do you know anything about the speech? For example, now English can be distinguished from German by ear, even without knowing these languages ​​at all. Maybe some anthropometric data are different - well, is there a predominant color of hair, eyes, height, skin color?
        Or, I went out to some camp and I need to identify the blood from the nas as Scythians or Sarmatians. I look at them from a hillock from a distance, well, let's say, about a kilometer. I don’t know, there, the shape and design of wagons, cauldrons for food, how women braid their braids - is there any difference or is everything the same?
        We take the period that is described in the article - II century. BC.
        It's just that, in my opinion, the Scythians differ from the Sarmatians in the same way as, for example, the Mongols from the Buryats, that is, I do not see a difference, although I know that it exists.
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 22 January 2021 12: 33
          +2
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Or, I went out to some camp and I need to determine the blood from nas whether it is Scythians or Sarmatians

          You, most likely, will not determine, as well as I, now only a professional archaeologist or historian can do this, and then only the one who deals with them.
          It's like the modern form of the military: you think you can easily distinguish a captain of the Russian army from a lieutenant of the American army or, say, a German colonel, but a Papuan from the jungle or the same Sarmatian from the 2nd century AD. he cannot do this: everything is approximately the same: a jacket, trousers, boots, a cap, but we know at least approximately the insignia, uniform colors, etc. etc.
          Everything was exactly the same with them: jewelry (for example, temple rings among the Slavs), ornament on clothing, the shape of a belt, tattoos, etc. Based on these data, a person of that time easily and immediately identified from which tribe, what social status he occupied, etc.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 12: 57
            +2
            Quote: Mihaylov
            Everything was exactly the same with them:

            This is understandable.
            I would like to get an idea of ​​how close these peoples were to each other. It turns out that they are close enough so that for an outside observer who is not familiar with the intricacies of nomadic life, the difference between them is completely invisible - one people. Or is it still not? .. smile
            Does science have an opinion about their languages? Could they understand each other without an interpreter?
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 22 January 2021 13: 15
              +2
              one people. Or is it not?

              Different Group tribal peoples
              For an outside uninitiated observer, the Scythians-Sarmatians-Saki are all alike in their way of life
              I am sure that even a specialist will not distinguish, say, the falars of the Scythians from those of the Sarmatians without the remains of ceramics and other context.

              The Scythians have two main anthropological types, both Caucasoid
              The Sarmatians are Caucasians, the number of types is unknown.
              The Sakas and their neighbors have a noticeable proportion of Mongoloids.

              Deformation of the skulls - only begins in the Sarmatians for the 2nd century BC. single finds. That is, the pumpkin shape is also indistinguishable.

              Does science have an opinion about their languages? Could they understand each other without an interpreter?

              According to Dyakonov's memory, the disintegration of the Northern Iranian linguistic community took place approximately in the first half of the first millennium BC. Different languages, but related. They understand each other as we are Poles. If after half a liter it is much better)

              Differences
              The funeral rite - you must watch Spitsyn.
              The weapon is in the details. It is necessary to clarify the tops of swords, the shape of the spears, etc.
              The Scythians in Crimea in the 2nd century BC begin the transition to a sedentary lifestyle.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 13: 47
                +3
                The Poles and I have been separated for fifteen hundred years. And these, it turns out, by that time were only about five hundred years apart. Probably, they understood each other well even without the bottle. Like Yaroslav the Wise and Boleslav the Brave. Or like we are with Belarusians.
                Well, in general, it is understandable, more or less. Thank you. smile hi
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 22 January 2021 14: 25
                  +3
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  The Poles and I have been separated for fifteen hundred years. And these, it turns out, by that time were only about five hundred years apart. Probably, they understood each other well even without the bottle. Like Yaroslav the Wise and Boleslav the Brave. Or like we are with Belarusians.
                  Well, in general, it is understandable, more or less. Thank you.

                  The problem is that the neighbors who had written language and who left us at least some kind of narrative information, as a rule, either did not distinguish them at all, or for the most part. So understand who he meant - all in one word "Scythians".
                  By the way, Mikhail, regarding your recent articles on the "patrimonial marks of the Rurikovich": the other day in one article about the fresh excavations of the Tithe Church in Kiev, already in the 2000s, information flashed that 4 plinths with such marks were found. It might come in handy. hi
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 14: 57
                    +3
                    Quote: Mihaylov
                    4 plinths with such signs

                    Well, I think I realized myself on this topic ...
                    And what is there something interesting that goes beyond the generally accepted ideas? I came across something about the signs on the plinth, I don't know if this is what you mean, but there, in my opinion, everything was within the framework of the general concept ...
                    1. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 22 January 2021 15: 38
                      +1
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      And what is there something interesting that goes beyond the generally accepted ideas?

                      Unfortunately, the article did not contain any details or photos of these plinths, just such a fact was noted. If necessary, then you will have to look here.
                      I have not looked at the list of references in your articles: Did you use Beletsky?
                      1. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 16: 04
                        +2
                        Of course. There his table of the genealogy of signs is given and in the article itself he was mentioned. I noted it for a long time, I somehow came across material on Pskov that was interesting at http://arheologpskov.ru/, but he, in my opinion, defends the point of view that the original, chronicle Pskov stood on the site of modern Izborsk, and then , like Smolensk from Gnezdovo was moved to its present place ... Although I could be wrong ...
                        As for the topic itself, then, probably, if I return to it, it will not be soon. There are many more interesting things. smile
                      2. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 22 January 2021 16: 09
                        +2
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        It is he, in my opinion, who defends the point of view that the original, chronicle Pskov stood on the site of modern Izborsk, and then, like Smolensk from Gnezdovo, was moved to the present place ... Although I may be wrong ...

                        To be honest, I have not read about it, but it is very likely, if we remember that such a "story" happened to almost all the early "cities": Novgorod, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Smolensk. hi
                      3. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 16: 18
                        +2
                        On the portal that I gave the address, this article is. True, it is still necessary to find it there ... I remember that then I was looking for information about when the first stone walls appeared in Pskov, it was fused that in the XNUMXth century, I decided to check. And I came across this article about Izborsk.
                      4. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 22 January 2021 16: 43
                        +2
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        On the portal that I gave the address, this article is.

                        Found, although the site is clumsy, but the version is interesting, you need to remember hi
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 22 January 2021 14: 20
          +3
          Quote: Engineer
          The Sarmatians are Caucasians, the number of types is unknown.

          In the late Sarmatian period, a small admixture of Mongoloidity is recorded in them, apparently they arrived.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 22 January 2021 14: 39
            +3
            everything seems clear enough there.
            In the first century with the Alans a little. In the fourth century with the Huns - a lot (??) And everything got mixed up
            1. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 22 January 2021 14: 46
              +2
              Quote: Engineer
              And everything got mixed up

              As usual in the steppe: everything is like in the Oblonskys' house.
              Quote: Engineer
              In the first century with the Alans a little. In the fourth century with the Huns - a lot (??)

              Neither had something else with the Goths
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 22 January 2021 14: 52
                +3
                Have the Sarmatians (or Alans) with the Goths?
                War. Somewhere in the 3rd century. The Goths have won.
                If with vandals, then some cultural sarmatization of vandals went

                In the 4th, everyone mixed up-fought-made up-got married-quarreled-fought genocide.

                Since the 4th century, everyone has a polychrome style, a similar set of weapons, all deforms the skull.

                You can hardly distinguish gepid from sarmatian by some fibula
                .ZY apparently the vandals managed to make war with the Sarmatians by providing some contingents to the Goths. Trophy Sarmatian spearheads are found in the area of ​​the Przeworsk culture, sometimes even with new rune marks
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 22 January 2021 14: 57
                  +2
                  Quote: Engineer
                  War. Somewhere in the 3rd century. The Goths have won.
                  If with vandals, then some cultural sarmatization of vandals went

                  And then they all joined together in the "state of Ermanarich"
                2. Engineer
                  Engineer 22 January 2021 15: 01
                  +4
                  Sarmatians did not seem to be included
                  They are not on the list of those conquered by Ermanrich. Correct if I'm wrong.
                  Plus, the Alans became the first victim of the Huns, but at first there was no conflict with the Goths, and it should have happened automatically if the Alans obeyed the Goths.
                3. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 22 January 2021 15: 05
                  +3
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Sarmatians did not seem to be included

                  Apparently they entered, but not significantly: in the southern part of the "state" their element is recorded, something like 5% (I write from memory)
                4. Engineer
                  Engineer 22 January 2021 15: 08
                  +4
                  Sarmatian motives generally exist in the area of ​​the Chernyakhov culture, but whether this was the result of direct conquest or simply contacts can hardly be said.
                5. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 22 January 2021 15: 15
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Sarmatian motives generally exist in the area of ​​the Chernyakhov culture, but whether this was the result of direct conquest or simply contacts can hardly be said.

                  Yes, probably, now there is no book at hand to see what was there about the nature of the Sarmatian inclusions in the Chernyakhov culture, but I don't remember from memory.
                6. Engineer
                  Engineer 22 January 2021 15: 17
                  +2
                  This is at Sedov's. But nothing is clear there. Moreover, Sedov did not directly correlate the Chernyakhovites with the Goths.
                  By the way, I forgot to add.
                  The Germans taught the Sarmatians bad things. They stopped respecting women.
                  Since the 3rd century, the Sarmatians sometimes sacrifice women on the graves of warriors.

                  A beautiful Germanic custom.
                7. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 22 January 2021 15: 21
                  +2
                  Quote: Engineer
                  This is at Sedov's. But nothing is clear there. Moreover, Sedov did not directly correlate the Chernyakhovites with the Goths.

                  I am at Zinkovskaya I.V. I looked, there was something about the Sarmatian element in the Chernyakhov culture, in the evening I will look, the book is at home.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Since the 3rd century, the Sarmatians sometimes sacrifice women on the graves of warriors

                  What bastards, there are no feminists on them hi
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 22 January 2021 14: 51
    +2
    Hello, Sergey!
    At the Hermitage today, until 22.02. wonderful temporary exhibition on this topic. Not planning to visit?
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 22 January 2021 15: 00
      +3
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      At the Hermitage today, until 22.02. wonderful temporary exhibition on this topic. Not planning to visit?

      Didn't know, you mean this one?
      "The Iron Age. Europe Without Borders. The First Millennium BC"
      Looked at the Hermitage website
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 22 January 2021 15: 07
        +2
        Absolutely right! I caught a glimpse of the poster rushing to the Raphael Line last weekend. Despite the fact that I am more interested in the bronze, I want to go. Will you be company?
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 22 January 2021 15: 09
          +2
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Will you be company?

          With pleasure, just not this weekend hi
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 22 January 2021 15: 20
            +2
            I'm busy with these too. Will we plan a little later?
            1. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 22 January 2021 15: 24
              +2
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              I'm busy with these too. Will we plan a little later?

              There are four more weekends before the end of the exhibition, I'm ready - we will agree on some of them! hi
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 22 January 2021 15: 30
                +2
                we will agree!
                Undoubtedly!
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 22 January 2021 22: 21
        +1
        “People live. They go to theaters, libraries "(c).
  • Engineer
    Engineer 22 January 2021 11: 35
    +4
    In what time period do you need to distinguish?
    For 4-3 centuries BC, we will not distinguish them. For badges, harnesses, tribal tattoos, including on the face, this is only possible for people of that time, dedicated to
    If the detachment is looking at the detachment who is better armored and it will most likely be ...... SKIFS
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 22 January 2021 11: 47
      +3
      Quote: Engineer
      If the detachment is looking at the detachment who is better armored and it will most likely be ...... SKIFS

      But in general, as I understand it, for this period there is a very similar set of weapons: scaly shells (mostly), Attic or Montefortino helmets, a Scythian bow, short swords and daggers, spears?
      The Scythians simply had more "iron", how were they richer?
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 22 January 2021 11: 50
        +4
        In general, probably, yes, it would be necessary to clarify more.
        The Eastern Scythians-Massagets also had something similar.
        1. depressant
          depressant 22 January 2021 13: 15
          +2
          How to distinguish a Scythian from a Sarmatian?
          It is known from somewhere that the Sarmatians spoke the dialect of the Iranian language group (apparently, it is known from the Greeks), which means that the origin was the same, closer to the Aryans. Could this affect your appearance? Apparently, she was ... how to put it, closer to the Caucasian of that time, or something. Not without reason did the Greeks get along with them at one time.
          Modern Ossetians, as descendants of the Sarmatians, differ little from Europeans.
          But the Scythians - outwardly they are clearly different. For example, the poet of the Silver Age Valery Bryusov. Or actress Tatyana Samoilova. Or actress Maya Menglet. Here are the clear descendants of the Scythians. They are not like Tatars, Buryats, Tuvans, or others. And even more so for the peoples of Central Asia, not to mention the Mongols. Special eye shape. Persons that are somewhat subtly similar, but such that do not mate with any modern nationality. Genes showed up after 20 generations? ))))
          Therefore, I admit that the Scythians and Sarmatians differed not only in weapons, but also in appearance. They were not mistaken when they met.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 22 January 2021 13: 25
            +2
            it is known from somewhere that the Sarmatians spoke the dialect of the Iranian language group (apparently, it is known from the Greeks), which means that the origin was the same, closer to the Aryans.


            Surprisingly, the Scythians and Eastern Scythians-Sakas also spoke Iranian languages

            The proximity to the Aryans should be determined by specialists like the Operator.

            By phenotype Ossetians are a typical population of the Caucasus. They are noticeably different from the ancient Sarmatians. Either the Sarmatians constituted only the tribal elite among the ancestors of the Ossetians, or the ancestors of the Ossetians lost their original appearance over the centuries of ethnogenesis in the Caucasus.

            But the Scythians - outwardly they are clearly different


            Scythians are different
            Wide faces are more common in images. How it was actually not known. More precisely, one should look at the books on the anthropology of the peoples of the USSR by Debets and Alekeevs.

            They were not mistaken when they met.

            "they" were certainly not wrong
            1. depressant
              depressant 22 January 2021 13: 47
              +2
              Yes, I once examined the sculptural portraits of the Scythians, restored by our famous anthropologist Gerasimov. There are many Slavic features in their faces. And Herodotus, who was personally acquainted with many Scythians, argued that if there are worthy people, they are Scythians.
              But then the question is: why did these worthy people so fiercely survived the Greeks from the Crimean peninsula? Themselves not having in those days the habit of systematic agriculture, therefore, not having the goal of replacing the Greeks with themselves? Judging by the article, it was they who survived them from there, and did not punish them for non-payment of tribute.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 22 January 2021 14: 00
                +3
                Nomads are generally aggressive.
                Iranian (Aryan) tribes are also unusually arrogant.

                So they smashed, genocidal.

                When the Goths and Sarmatians entered the Crimea in the 2nd century AD, they also did not stand on ceremony. The Scythians as a community were finally destroyed.
              2. andrew42
                andrew42 22 January 2021 15: 24
                +1
                I believe that one of the reasons for the rejection of the Hellenes by the Scythians was that the "Hellenic economy" was based on the labor of a significant number of slaves. It is not difficult to guess where these slaves came from - from the Scythian outskirts. Maybe not so much from the Scythians themselves as from the tribes subordinate to them. And yet, as the term "skoloty" is absent from the topic. There is a version that the so-called Scythian farmers, or tribes related to the Scythians. This is where the source of the slave "livestock" comes from in the Hellenic policies. Nowhere else.
              3. Alex013
                Alex013 22 January 2021 19: 09
                +2
                Lyudmila Yakovlevna, there were also Scythian farmers.
          2. Alex013
            Alex013 22 January 2021 19: 11
            +2
            Yes, almond shaped eyes. Occurs in the south of Russia and in the Crimea and in Odessa saw)
          3. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 22: 22
            +2
            That is, the Scythian bloc copied Bryusov?
            1. depressant
              depressant 22 January 2021 23: 19
              +2
              You know, there are such twists and turns of perception when a person is firmly convinced of something and not of some idea, but of a specific fact in the form of a printed poem in black and white, over which there is a title: the poem "Scythians", V. Bryusov. For many years I lived in the belief that this was so, because on that unfortunate day I was holding a collection of Bryusov's poems in my hands, and I never had Blok's collection of poems. And an unpleasant feeling of a certain dissonance with reality grips me every time I remember this incident. It's like a matrix failure.
              And the fact that Blok painted the image of the Scythians from Bryusov - well, this is unlikely. Rather, - within the framework of the opinion of the then historians about the Scythians. In those days, people were very educated, and the social circle was corresponding.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 22 January 2021 23: 30
                +3
                Maybe yes. Human memory is amazing.
                An interesting story was told.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 22 January 2021 14: 37
    +4
    for hunting marmots
    Mikhail, you are definitely a Mongolian intelligence agent! However, be careful with marmots, they are carriers of the plague bacteria.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 14: 52
      +4
      So I am a Tatar historian recruited through a Jewish grandmother by the Mongolian intelligence with the aim of exterminating the Scythian-Sarmatian marmots. What do you not learn about yourself during a friendly conversation ... laughing
      Don't worry, Anton, before starting the hunt, I will definitely ask the marmots if they are vaccinated in accordance with the requirements of the Bosporus Sanitary and Epidemiological Service. smile
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 22 January 2021 15: 39
        +3
        Do not get overwhelmed. Just send a request for "government services". This resource has long collaborated with the Arian Zoo Control Service. laughing
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 22 January 2021 15: 41
        +2
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        I definitely ask the marmots whether they are vaccinated in accordance

        The main thing is not to eat them, but here some bats have already eaten: such a confusion has begun wassat
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 22 January 2021 14: 43
    +3
    The number of comments under "Yaroslav" is compensated by holivar under "Rurik".
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 15: 18
      +3
      With Rurik and the Mongols (as well as Stalin and Ivan the Terrible) it is always like this, holivar is practically provided. But start writing about the druzhina culture of Ancient Russia, for example, and even in the style not of "children were taught from childhood" or "advanced methods of Russian hand-to-hand combat", but at least somewhat scientifically, the people will not be so interested at all. I survived it, but it was easier for me, by the time I started writing articles, many already knew me as a commentator, there was already some basic set of self-confidence.
      I'm more upset about Yegor. The topic is narrow, specialized, he is a new person here - he will look at the attendance, the number of comments and say - well, this is creativity. It will be a pity, a promising author, it seems to me.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 22 January 2021 15: 28
        +4
        Dont be upset. Egor does everything right. Will fill his hand here and begin to write somewhere for money, which is what he aspires to. And we will provide him with clicks, at least Denis, his subject.
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 22 January 2021 15: 59
        +4
        I am very impressed by the moment that not a single "female dog" will go under Yegor's materials. Neither politically engaged nor historically sick.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 22 January 2021 16: 07
          +4
          I didn't think about it ...
          Dialectics. There is a silver lining. Maybe it's really better this way. smile
          1. depressant
            depressant 22 January 2021 18: 51
            +3
            Hee-hee-s! Here I am - politically engaged, and I was already aiming to draw an analogy with the current situation in Crimea, but out of respect for the Author I did not do this. Appreciate, psoglavtsy!))))
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 22 January 2021 22: 24
              +2
              What if the author would like it? Or did he admit something?
              1. depressant
                depressant 22 January 2021 23: 34
                +2
                Maybe in your own political engagement? )))
                In the "History" section, it is indecent, a violation of an established tradition, according to which historical analogies, preconditions, origins - in general, the connection of times is absent by default. It was fashionable in the late 19th, early 20th centuries to trace, rummaging through factual material, who was awakened by the Decembrists, and who was awakened in revenge by the angry awakened and so along the chain of sleep deprived people. In the current era, the near past is unattainable, but the era of the first, still unawakened, is attractive with fictional charm.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 22 January 2021 23: 36
                  +2
                  I don't agree with everything.
                  Analogies are quite acceptable.
                  Woland's question: "How much have people changed?"
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 23 January 2021 00: 19
                    +1
                    Well, that's the same Woland! )))
                    Such an essence has lived for millions of years, or maybe since the beginning of the creation of the world, because that essence is majestic and its questions are majestic. But the answer given at the end of the book is extremely simple. What could be more attractive to a rational person at all times and epochs, - a person not burdened with demiurge complexes? A quiet, secluded place outside of time and known geographical space, writing and endless evening conversations with good friends. An idyll in a bad time of social upheaval. It differs from the idyll of shepherd times only by the decorative design of the place of residence.
                    In general, people change as much as the growth of production opportunities can change them. Creators are the same at all times. They are addicted. And a paradise based on independence is unattainable for them, but is seen in dreams and dreams.
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 23 January 2021 07: 56
                      +2
                      No, Peace is not Light yet.
                      Aurelia Peccei noted that the human mind has not improved much since the time of Socrates.
                    2. depressant
                      depressant 23 January 2021 09: 04
                      +1
                      And some luminaries believe that a person amazed by the growth of irresponsibility is inversely proportional to the growth of living comfort, a person has become stupid. Brains are racked up.
                      Were the Sarmatians and Scythians more stupid than us? It is unlikely.
                    3. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 23 January 2021 11: 00
                      +2
                      Difficult to compare. Different skills for survival and success began to be required.
                    4. depressant
                      depressant 23 January 2021 11: 17
                      +1
                      But now, pundits say that the ancient man had a larger brain, and ours seemed to dry out)))
                    5. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 23 January 2021 18: 53
                      +2
                      This is not an argument. They say that Anatole France had a brilliant mind and a small brain weight.

                      Let the anatomists and physiologists disassemble what is there with the folds of the cerebral cortex.
  • Cure72
    Cure72 22 January 2021 13: 39
    +4
    Glad to continue, thanks a lot to the author. Very interesting !
  • ccsr
    ccsr 23 January 2021 10: 56
    +1
    A very informative and interesting article, especially since the author uses materials from recognized authorities in the history of the Bosporus kingdom.
    In addition, I propose to get acquainted with the recent scientific research that was carried out in the capital of the Bosporus Kingdom.
    1. PhilipKDick
      23 January 2021 12: 47
      +1
      Hello. Thank you. I will definitely look
    2. depressant
      depressant 23 January 2021 19: 13
      +1
      Dear ccsr colleague, thanks for the video! hi
      So that's why they say that the Sarmatians and Scythians appeared in the 6-7 centuries BC. They did not appear, they were there before that, they appeared - the Greeks! Scythians appeared and found, who immediately began to attack them.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 24 January 2021 11: 24
        0
        Quote: depressant
        They did not appear, they were there before that, they appeared - the Greeks! Scythians appeared and found, who immediately began to attack them.

        I'm not so much an expert on the history of the Northern Black Sea region to seriously discuss some hypotheses, but here's what you can learn about the Cimmerians, who were supplanted by the Scythians long before the arrival of the Greeks:
        According to Herodotus, the pre-Scythian population of the steppe part of the Northern Black Sea region was the Cimmerians. In the "History" Herodotus writes: "And now in Scythia there are Cimmerian walls, there are Cimmerian crossings, there is a country called Cimmeria, there is also a Bosporus called Cimmerian." (IV, 12.) And then he adds: "The Cimmerians, who lived near the South Sea, left the country under the onslaught of the Scythians" (IV, 13.) Herodotus talks about the South Cimmerian Sea - this is the Black Sea, and in the story about the Cimmerians he twice mentions "Cimmerian ferry" is the Kerch Strait between the Black and Azov Seas.
        .....
        Around 600 BC, the reign of the Cimmerians in Western Asia ended. This happened because of the same Scythians who began to invade these lands. The Cimmerian tribes were forced to retreat to the south of the Black Sea coast, where they were defeated by King Aliattus from Lydia. From the images on a Greek vase dating from the XNUMXth century BC, on an Etruscan jug of the same era, one can see what the Cimmerian warriors looked like. The Cimmerians were good riders, wore high head caps. They dressed in tight trousers comfortable for riding, belted shirts, short Scythian boots.
        Cimmerians (lat.Cimmerii, ancient Greek Κιμμέριοι) are tribes that invaded Transcaucasia in the second half of the XNUMXth century BC. e. and in the XNUMXth century BC. e. conquered some areas of Asia Minor.
        Today it is almost impossible to find out the exact boundaries of the territory in which the Cimmerians lived. Some researchers believe that the Cimmerians lived in the northern territories of the Black Sea region, while others believe that they inhabited larger territories - from the Don to the Danube. Other scientists suggest that the Cimmerians occupied very few lands - the North-Western Caucasus and the Kerch Peninsula with the Taman Peninsula. There is even an assumption that the Cimmerians are not a separate people, but a collective name for nomadic warlike tribes.
        The Cimmerians are the oldest people living in Eastern Europe. The origin of the name "Cimmerians" is possible from the Phoenician "dark" or from the Vedic Sanskrit Khima - hima - winter, cold (hence the Himalayas - Himalaya - "abode of snows"), later from the Greek χειμώνας - "himonos" - "winter", as the Greeks called people living in countries where winters are dark and cold. The Cimmerians had contacts with Urartu, Assyria, Phrygia and Lydia.

        The mystery of this people has not yet been solved, and it is quite possible that it is partly that they became our ancestors, who left the Scythians in the colder regions of our European part.
        1. depressant
          depressant 24 January 2021 12: 00
          +2
          Thank you very much, colleague! hi
          You have opened my eyes to many things. Cimmerians, then ... Even more mysterious than the Scythians and Sarmatians)))
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 28 January 2021 14: 03
            -2
            Quote: depressant
            Thank you very much, colleague!

            Colleague - this is probably too loudly said, I'm just interested in the history of the Bosporus kingdom, due to the fact that I lived a 15-minute walk from Panticapaeum.

            Quote: depressant
            You have opened my eyes to many things. Cimmerians, then ..

            Perhaps you will come across this book twenty years ago, read it, there are many details about the history of the Cimmerians