Munchausen's followers: how German pilots exaggerated their victories in World War II

As you know, nowhere do they lie so much as in war and hunting. The lies and exaggeration of the German military of the XNUMXth century were ridiculed by the German writer Rudolf Erich Raspe in his immortal works about the adventures of Baron Munchausen. Years have passed since the writing of the stories about the baron “flying on a cannonball” and “pulling himself out of the swamp by his hair,” but the exaggerations in the narratives of some military men about their adventures did not diminish. This was no exception for the Second World War.

About what stories, leaving far behind even the "stories of Munchausen" were given by German military pilots, Vladimir Potapov tells on the Sky Artist channel.

One of the most common areas of outright lies on the part of the Luftwaffe aces is the number of victories, the number of Soviet planes shot down.

The exaggerations sometimes took on incredible proportions. In order to receive new awards and extraordinary titles, German pilots sometimes "increased" their success in air operations at times. And this was possible for the reason that the systems for confirming victories between the Luftwaffe and Soviet pilots were seriously different. The former could afford impressive "postscripts", which often led to the glorification of the Air Force officers in the Third Reich, who were not particularly distinguished at the front.

About the peculiar followers of the main character of the book Raspe - in the plot:

Comments

[Vladimir_2U]

Munchausen was even funny, but these "knights of the air" were swept out of our sky with a lot of blood and sweat!

[Aerodrome]

One of the most common areas of outright lies on the part of the Luftwaffe aces is the number of victories, the number of Soviet planes shot down.

Ha...! on "discovery" somehow accidentally stumbled upon the transfer, as our Americans in Korea and Vietnam shot down dozens of them a day!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Aerodrome

how the Americans in Korea and Vietnam shot down dozens of

The usual thing! To listen to them, they knocked all the Soviet Air Force, four times. During the week.

[Crowe]

"They never lie so much as during the war, after the hunt and before the elections."
Otto von Bismarck

[Machito]

Quote: Crowe

"They never lie so much as during the war, after the hunt and before the elections."
Otto von Bismarck

If my memory serves me, Munchausen served in the Russian army.

[Bolt cutter]

Munchausen served in the Russian army

It was on this core that the Bendery fortress flew around. I conducted reconnaissance from the air. The administration of the museum is confident in the authenticity, the tooth gives

[bairat]

But they have all of their planes allegedly lost for technical reasons.

[Zug]

The impudent ones were waiting for ours at the landing and felled like chickens - insolently, they were not afraid of anything.This is our pilot recalling the war in Korea

[Stirbjorn]

One of the most common areas of outright lies on the part of the Luftwaffe aces is the number of victories, the number of Soviet planes shot down.

But what about the planes of the allies ?! There, too, over a hundred were shot down and for confirmation the individual number of the shot down plane was indicated, which usually fell over Germany and there were no problems with its identification. A hackneyed topic, the main difference is in the tactics of using fighters. The Germans were mainly engaged in free hunting. The main goal was not to prevent the enemy from bombing, or vice versa, to save their bombers - that was how the score grew, and the war was lost. According to the postscripts, the Germans exaggerated, not much more than the rest of this was already understood. The main thing is who won the war, and not who shot down more!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Stirbjorn

But what about the Allied planes ?! There, too, over a hundred were shot down and for confirmation the individual number of the shot down plane was indicated, which usually fell over Germany and there were no problems with its identification.

Are you talking about allied bombers ?! And who is this unique one who shot down a hundred, or even fifty dollars of Anglo-American bombers and (to hell with them) escort fighters over Germany or even over all of Europe?

[Stirbjorn]

Nightlights - Hans-Wolfgang Schnaufer (121 of them 114 four-engine) and Helmut Lent (110). about 50 more night lights. From daytime, Walter Dahl (51 western), you can still search

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Stirbjorn

Nightlights - Hans-Wolfgang Schnaufer (121 of them 114 four-engined) and Helmut Lent (110)

I didn't think about nightlights at all, maybe so, but they are already taking doubts about Walter Dahl:

On September 13, Dahl claimed to have shot down a four-engined B-17 bomber, ramming, in his own words. Lorant and Goyat, historians of JG 300, have found no evidence of a corresponding loss in the US archives. Wikipedia site: wikichi.ru

[PilotS37]

Quote: Stirbjorn

But what about the planes of the allies ?! There, too, they shot down a hundred

Who of the allies shot down "over a hundred"? ..
In Britain the best was Pattle, Marmaduke Pattle - 51. And he flew (ta-da-da-dame!) On the Gladiator, and then on the Hurricane!
In the USA - Bong, Richard Ira Bong - 40 and McGuire, Thomas Buchanan McGuire - 38. By the way, both flew ... P-38!
But in Japan - yes! There were their own "drummers": Hiroyoshi Nishizawa - 87 and Tetsudzo Iwamoto - 80. And then without sensations: "Zero"!

[Avior]

During the war, all sides overestimated the number of shot down. It is clear that partly deliberately - for the shot down they gave money, titles, awards - in large part because the pilot had no time to follow the shot down his own or other participants in the battle in battle. Not those speeds. From the ground, too, you can not always make out who shot down whom and how much.
Therefore, overestimating the number of shot down was the most common thing. The bosses fought with this with varying success.
The difficulty of checking now, when there is data from different sides, is due to the fact that different parts were involved and it is difficult to determine whose plane was.
But there is a well-known study by Rybin about the actual losses in the Arctic from our and the German side - there were relatively few aircraft, the theater of operations was limited, so it was relatively easy to count.
He analyzed the results of battles over a relatively long period according to reports from both sides, and compared the declared and shot down in reality.
The results showed a multiple overestimation of the number of those shot down on both sides.
For example, here are the official and actual results of 13 air battles in the Arctic, described by Yu.V. Rybin in his work on the hostilities on the Soviet-German front of the 6th detachment of the 5nd group of the 6th fighter squadron of the Luftwaffe. Of the pilots who were credited with victories in these battles, the Germans belonged to the 7th and 19th detachments of this group, and the Soviet ones to the 197th Guards, 837th and 14th Fighter Aviation Regiments of the Air Force of the 768th Army of the Karelian Front , The 769th and 122th Fighter Aviation Regiments of the 20nd Air Defense Fighter Aviation Division and the 78th and XNUMXth Fighter Aviation Regiments of the Northern Fleet Air Force.

http://vspomniv.ru/effektivnost_istrebitelei.htm
The ratio of overestimating the knocked down floats, nevertheless, by three or six times, the most common thing in comparing the results with the ones actually knocked down.
And you just need to accept it as a fact.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Avior

The ratio of overestimating the knocked down floats, nevertheless, by three or six times, the most common thing in comparing the results with the ones actually knocked down.
And you just need to accept it as a fact.

Why take some lies as a fact? The link is a murky article in which the concept of Soviet aviation "group victory" is not even mentioned.

[Avior]

A table based on data from the works of Yuri Rybin, a well-known researcher of air hostilities in the Arctic, was published in specialized journals.
Group victory is one victory.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Avior

Group victory is one victory.

This is how you wrote it, in the article under your link there is neither a definition, let alone a decoding of this definition. Well

the ratio of losses of Soviet and German fighters looks approximately 19600: 3240, i.e. about 6: 1.

the stupidity of perestroika times, if only because the human losses of the Soviet Air Force are about 24 thousand people, and the German ones are about 45-46 thousand people. and even if half was shot down by the allies, then the score is approximately equal, and in fact there are no Finns, no Hungarians, no Italians with Romanians. More precisely, the figures from Drabkin "I fought on the Il-2", now I have no time to look, sorry.

[Avior]

Is the IL-2 the result of fighter air battles? Strange ...
The works of Rybin and some of his followers are the only case known to me of calculating the real results of air battles for a period of time to compare with the declared parties. The rest simply snatch the pieces they need, like the video above.
If you have research results of such data on both sides, give a link, I would be interested to read

As for the losses of the Air Force, the Germans included anti-aircraft air defense in them, which also participated in ground battles

[ccsr]

Quote: Avior

Is the IL-2 the result of fighter air battles? Strange ...

And why is it strange if the Hero of the Soviet Union I.I. Lezzhov himself, on his reconnaissance plane, overwhelmed TWO OUR fighters, who attacked him by mistake when he was returning from a mission? He describes it in detail in his memoirs, and how the investigation was carried out, and recognized his actions as correct, but the Hero Star was detained. Where to bring these losses, and such cases during the war, both we and the enemy had enough.

Quote: Avior

If you have research results of such data on both sides, give a link, I would be interested to read

It’s interesting how to carry them out, if it requires many years of research in the archives of different countries, and even then it’s not a fact that everything can be found there.
In general, in this case, one must, of course, be guided by the official losses of both sides during the entire war, in order to approximately understand the picture of the enemy's aviation losses. I see no other way.

Quote: Avior

As for the losses of the Air Force, the Germans included anti-aircraft air defense in them, which also participated in ground battles

So ours participated - in Lobnya near Moscow such a weapon stands as a monument, it was used against German tanks.

[Avior]

Unique cases did not change anything, I read the story of how the Americans torpedoed a steam locomotive, but these are isolated cases, they do not change anything.
As for the losses, there is already processed data on losses, they only need to be compared. Although, it is still a lot of work, of course, but historians are doing a lot. From what I see at Rybin, I understand why. Inconvenient data is received.
A similar situation with submariners - but it's easier there, there are much fewer ships

commander of the Shch-421 submarine of the X series of the Pike type of the Northern Fleet. On it, he completed 5 military campaigns, made 7 torpedo attacks on enemy ships and ships. He took his boat out on the first trip on the evening of June 22, 1941. According to his statements, "Shch-421" sank 7 enemy ships and transports with a total displacement of 49 thousand tons. However, the sinking of only one steamer is documented: on February 5, 1942, "Sch-421" sank the German steamer "Consul Schulte" (2975 brt) [4] ..... In total, during the war, Lunin was credited with the sinking of 17 enemy ships and vessels [12], of which 4 victories were confirmed in the post-war period: 2 transports, a large submarine hunter and an unarmed Norwegian motorboat

A similar story with the sunken Marinesco - counted after the war is not confirmed, the class of ships is overstated.
This is an objective reality, you need to calmly take this

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Avior

Is the IL-2 the result of fighter air battles? Strange ...

It is strange that you have not read, you can say the cult, among fans of aviation history, Drabkin's book

Combat losses of spacecraft Air Force pilots during the war amounted to 27 people, including 600 attack pilots, 7837 fighters, 11 bombers, 874 reconnaissance aircraft, 6613 auxiliary aviation.

https://www.mnogobook.ru/nauka_obrazovanie/istoriya/73205/fulltext.htm
Confused with the numbers, but warned in principle.

https://history.wikireading.ru/5702

Nevertheless, if we sum up the losses of manpower of the Luftwaffe only from hostilities (the first four sums of the final column), we get combat losses - 549393, of which 218960 are losses on the Eastern Front, or 39,8% of all combat losses of the German Air Force.

If we assume that the losses of the Luftwaffe's flight personnel on all fronts were proportional, then on the Eastern Front, the Germans would have to lose 39,8% of all their pilots. The number of those killed in the number of missing persons is not known, suppose that half of the flight personnel listed as missing were captured, and half were killed. Then the estimated amount of the deceased flight personnel on 31.01.1945/43517/27240 there will be (2 + 57137/39,8) = 22740 people, and XNUMX% of this number will be XNUMX people.

That something like this.

Quote: Avior

As for the losses of the Air Force, the Germans included anti-aircraft air defense in them, which also participated in ground battles

Anti-aircraft air defense, huh, airfield divisions do you want?

[Avior]

Initially, it was about losses in air battles and comparison with reports.
I thought that you found this somewhere at Dobkin's.
As for the plate, it mixes the concepts of manpower of the Luftwaffe and the flight crew, and is conjectural, tentative, conjectural, not actual.
And to you discussion, the ratio of real shot down and declared has nothing to do.

[Avior]

Sorry, topic of discussion
There is data on the losses of the Luftwaffe in the Corner of Heaven, but I don't think it makes sense to discuss these figures, because we are talking about something else entirely, this is very indirectly.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Avior

As for the plate, it mixes the concepts of manpower of the Luftwaffe and the flight crew, and is conjectural, tentative, conjectural, not actual.

It is a pity that you did not follow the link:

These figures were presented to Hitler in February 1945 (Table 20) and summarize the losses for the ground forces and the Luftwaffe up to January 31, 1945, and for the Navy - until December 31, 1944.

and also in the table, flight personnel, paratroopers and other air force personnel are clearly separated.

Quote: Avior

And to you discussion, the ratio of real shot down and declared has nothing to do.

It just shows the degree of unreliability of the article on your link.

[Avior]

According to my link, we are talking about downed fighters, and not about the flight crew (not necessarily fighter pilots, there are different pilots), so there is no connection between these numbers.
Moreover, it is not specifically there on the Eastern Front, these are the author's assumptions, it is written there.

If we accept .... the Germans would have to lose .... The number of those killed among the missing is not known, let's say .... Then the approximate amount

this is counting on the corner of the sky
http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luftloss/luftloss.html
http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/germloss/germloss.html
I compared to 1944. The author of my link has combat losses of 750 fighters, to the corner of the sky - 839. The figure is different, but not fundamentally.
Therefore, I do not see what the figures you quoted can prove in this matter. Moreover, they have a very indirect relationship to the topic of discussion.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Avior

According to my link, we are talking about downed fighters, and not about the flight crew (not necessarily fighter pilots, there are different pilots), so there is no connection between these numbers.

Not quite so, namely:

Using certain approximations, the number of German aircraft shot down by Red Army fighters is equal to 7500. The number of aircraft shot down by German pilots is equal to 18750, i.e. 2,5 times more (the deduced number of aircraft shot down by the Germans has been shifted downward, closer to reality, we can assume that German fighters shot down from 19000 to 22000 Soviet aircraft on the Soviet-German front).

Speech in your link is about ALL shot down. And these figures are false.
And the connection is direct, because the ratio of fighters to other types of aviation may be rough, but it can be established. As an example:

At the beginning of the campaign - July 20, 1940 - the following forces were included in the 2nd and 3rd air fleets:
8 long-range reconnaissance bombers
1200 medium bombers (of which 69% are serviceable, including 90 reconnaissance bombers)
280 dive bombers
760 single-engine fighters
220 twin-engine fighters
50 long-range scouts
90 close scouts

Medium bombers, based on an average crew of 5 (overestimated) people 6000 hours, diving 560 hours, fighters 1200 hours .. the ratio Well, let 1 to 5 (slightly underestimated for simplicity)

Quote: Avior

Moreover, it is not specifically there on the Eastern Front, these are the author's assumptions, it is written there.

It is quite logical to do with it. Moreover, in 43 g, the airfield divisions finally came under the jurisdiction of the army, the army air defense had nothing to do with backlashes, and there was almost no heavy air defense on the Eastern Front. In addition, the production of bombers decreased, and fighters, on the contrary, albeit in many respects in the version of a fighter-bomber
So, taking the fully justified figure of 22740 killed flight personnel, we get the figure of the killed German fighters at 3790, which is very underestimated in my opinion.
Let us compare the numbers of combat losses of pilots (not pilots, namely pilots) of the spacecraft air force during the war - 27 with German losses on the Eastern (for the Germans of course) front of 600 people. Let us compare the figures of 22740 - killed Soviet fighters and 11 killed German fighters and it will become clear that:

The ratio of officially scored and actually won aerial victories
9: 1 for Soviet pilots
and 2,75: 1 for German

from your link is simply offensive.

[PilotS37]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

That something like this.

Well, here we must also bear in mind that, firstly, not everyone died, whom they shot down. Let's start with the same Hartman ... (And we count downed planes.)
Secondly, I do not agree with you that those who were taken prisoner should be deleted from this statistics: 1) they were shot down, 2) most likely, they were considered either dead or missing by their own people. But the main thing is that they were really shot down ...
Thirdly, some of the pilots died on the wrecked aircraft, having already withdrawn from the battle - the one who shot them down could not be counted as downed.
But in general, of course, the arithmetic is very indicative: approximate parity. Although 40% of losses on the Eastern Front in the Luftwaffe strongly discord with 60 ... 70% for Heer (I saw such statistics somewhere here, but I don't remember where) ...

[Illanatol]

then the score is approximately equal

The Germans, indeed, shot down more often, the final ratio was about 2: 1.
Human losses - not only in air battles, but also from the actions of ground forces and air defense.
Objective reasons: better organization, better communications and control, better intelligence, better coordination with other branches of the armed forces, better materiel. The Germans did not have to build aircraft from plywood, they had better fuels and lubricants .... etc.
Until a certain point, however.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Illanatol

The Germans, indeed, shot down more often, the final ratio was about 2: 1.
Human losses - not only in air battles, but also from the actions of ground forces and air defense.

The saturation of the German troops with anti-aircraft artillery was higher both in number and quality. They, in your opinion, shot down our less than our air defense (in the general sense of the word) Germans?

[Illanatol]

You don’t have to attribute to me what I didn’t write.
However, our object air defense was, perhaps, even better.
We lost in small-caliber anti-aircraft guns, but hardly in large caliber. Especially in terms of quantity.

[Petrik66]

Well, there were also submariners in the fleet, they were also masters. An example is I.V. Travkin, who declared 13 victories, was approved for 7 victories, in fact, he sank 1 transport, for which he spent a total of 50 torpedoes, which is a kind of record. The next in terms of torpedo consumption are M.V. Greshilov - 49 (16,3 per sunk target) and N.A. Lunin - 47 (23,5 per sunk target). Well, as a lie, I think the first place was taken by the finan Simo Käyuha, who killed almost 7 people every day, our tsiriks. From November 30, 1939 to March 13, 1940. He alone destroyed as well as 2 regiments of Finns with cannons and machine guns. Scary man with a rifle without sight.

[PilotS37]

Quote: Avior

The ratio of overestimating the knocked down floats, nevertheless, by three or six times, the most common thing in comparing the results with the ones actually knocked down.

I remember reading the memoirs of a German general - he was in the quartermaster's department.
He gave - among other things - the number of downed "Russian" aircraft during Operation Bagration (according to German data, of course). And in the comments to the book, I found similar statistics from our side - 3 times less ...

[looker-on]

All this is ok, and of course, victories in the war were overstated by everyone who could, but there is a question, who then killed our pilots?:

During the war years 44 pilots were trained. Killed in action 093: 27 fighter pilots, 600 attack pilots, 11 bomber crew members, 874 reconnaissance pilots and 7837 auxiliary pilots

[ccsr]

Quote: looker-on

587 reconnaissance pilots

This is how one of them died, without the participation of the enemy

I think that such cases were far from isolated ...

[Illanatol]

And how many were shot down by our German aces, if we add up their accounts?
I'm afraid the number of our pilots by the end of the war should have been measured in negative values ​​:))))

[looker-on]

The same pilot was often shot down several times. The aircraft counts, not the pilot

[Gennady Fomkin]

The history of the Munchausen family goes back to the 12th century - it was at this time that the family was founded by the knight Heino, who took part in the crusade led by Emperor Frederick Barbarossa. All descendants of the knight fought and died. And one of them survived because he was a monk. It was he who gave the family a new name - Munchausen, which means "monk's house". Since then, on the family coat of arms of the Munchausen family, there has been a monk with a book and a staff, Hieronymus Karl Friedrich Baron von Munchausen. He was born on May 11, 1720, near Hanover, in the Bodenwerder estate, which is still a museum, and his tales were about the Russian hunting, which the baron remembered so much. Very soon they became known throughout the country. And people began to call the baron the offensive word lugenbaron, which meant a liar baron. People stopped seeing the real behind the fictional baron ... Hieronymus Karl Friedrich Baron von Munchausen was buried in the family crypt under the floor of a church in the village of Kemnade, which is located in the vicinity of Boderwerder. In London, the swindler and thief Raspe decided to take revenge on Munchausen's uncle and anonymously published in 1785, according to the then tradition, a libel book about his nephew. The book was called "Tales of Baron Munchausen about his amazing travels and campaigns in Russia," after which the baron, to his displeasure, became widely known.

[PilotS37]

Quote: Gennady Fomkin

In London, the swindler and thief Raspe decided to take revenge on Munchausen's uncle and published anonymously in 1785

Well, I heard a slightly different version: allegedly Raspe entered the house of the very-baron (he almost benefited him), but, having a disgusting character, for some reason disliked his patron and, after parting with him with a scandal, began publish your libels.
There is also a German film-biography of the Baron, in which he is presented as a sweet uncle who entertained his guests with frank inventions (the guests perfectly understood that "the owner was joking"). However, then the baron began a black streak: his beloved wife (whom he met somewhere in Russian by that time Courland) died, and off we go ...
Nevertheless, the real Baron Munchausen eventually became just a kind of casus belli, but the scoundrel Raspe wrote and published a book that many people still read and read with pleasure! And even among us Russians his blatant nonsense "about Russia" does not cause any rejection! Because she's not offensive ...

[alexey alexeyev_2]

When reporting on the results of battles and counting downed enemy aircraft, each higher headquarters divided the number of downed aircraft by two.

[looker-on]

Quote: ccsr

I think that such cases were far from isolated ...

But not 500+ among intelligence and not 27600 in general. Most of the pilots died in the sky. And most from enemy aircraft. Ie from German pilots

[Comrade]

The exaggerations sometimes took on incredible proportions. In order to receive new awards and extraordinary titles, German pilots sometimes "increased" their success in air operations at times.

Do not oversimplify everything, many German pilots were formidable opponents, and the overestimation of victories took place in all armies without exception.
For example, data on the downed enemy aircraft during the Soviet-Finnish war became canonical.
It was reported that of the total in 427 Finnish planes were allegedly shot down:
213 fighters, 146 bombers, 46 anti-aircraft artillery, 22 more were destroyed on the ground.
At the same time, the actual combat losses on the Finnish side were 42 Finnish aircraft (including 36 were shot down in the air and 6 - by anti-aircraft fire) and 2 Swedish volunteers were shot down in the air.
As you can see, the number of downed Finnish aircraft was overstated by more than ten times. But no one calls our pilots liars or Munchausen, it is likely that in a number of cases they mistakenly considered shot down planes shot down.

Now for the allies.
The most prolific fighter pilot in both the RAF and the British Empire in general is squadron leader Marmaduke Thomas J. Pattle, who has 51 declared victory (forty personal, four group and six "probable" victories, damaged six aircraft in air battles and destroyed five more on the ground).
And the data of the enemy confirmed 23-24 of them, that is, 46% of the declared number.

[GKA72]

after the words on the video: gentlemen take their word for it, immediately remembered the anecdote

Chapaev is returning from a business trip to England. He is dressed all with a needle, in a limousine, on his hands are rings with diamonds. Full trunk of money. Porters carry out a bunch of suitcases.
Petka asks him in surprise:
- Vasily Ivanovich, where did you get all this from?
- Yes, Petka, I won the cards.
- Like this?
- I go to the club. Everyone is sitting there, drinking, playing cards. Looked closely - they cut into a point! I sat down at the table and took the cards. I have - 18. And my English rival says - 20. I to him: "Show me!" And he told me: "We, gentlemen, take our word for it." It was here that I was as flooded, as flooded

[Zakonnik]

N.G. Golodnikov said well, they won both in number and skill. The losses were still higher. But the main thing is the result. We will not stand behind the price.

[Eirik Krause]

So the Germans considered victories by engines: a fighter that shot down a four-engine bomber or a twin-engine one, wrote down
yourself 4 or 2 wins, respectively

[Gregory Charnota]

so they have a type victory in offset if the plane got out of the battle, but the fact that the pilot held out to his airfield
it is insecure

[Gregory Charnota]

In general, he always said that, judging by the victories of the Hartmans and Witmans, half an airplane and a tank on one gusle without a tower should fly to Berlin and arrive!

[War in the air without myths]

Fighters Airacobra tips received about 5.000. The Germans shot down about 1.700 in their applications. I don't see something in this case of Munchausen's tales.