Military Review

Have you seen a falcon here? Generic signs of Rurikovich

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In the previous article, we examined in detail and criticized the thesis about the possible Slavic origin of the name "Rurik". In this article we will consider the statement that the Rurikovichs used as their generic (some even use the word "heraldic") symbol, namely the "sign of the falcon".


Why is a generic mark needed?


Let's start with the fact that at the time of Rurik (remember, this is the second half of the XNUMXth century), neither heraldry nor any coats of arms, in the sense that we attach to these concepts today, in Europe, both Western and Eastern, even and out of the question.

So if we do not go to extremes and begin to assert that it is the Slavs who are the founders of European heraldry and the authors of the first coats of arms, thus outstripping “enlightened Europe” by a good three centuries, then we will have to use the terms “generic sign”, “sign property "or" tamga ". Moreover, to a large extent, these concepts are synonymous.

In those early years, there were not so many soldiers (and, accordingly, the leaders who commanded them) that they could be confused on the battlefields, so identifying one or another commander on the battlefield was not yet such a difficult task as several centuries later. ...

The leaders of the squads, as a rule, knew each other very well, if not by sight, then at least by hearsay. As a last resort, they could introduce themselves to each other immediately before the showdown.

So there was no special need for the mandatory wearing of some distinctive signs for warriors and leaders then - verbal portraits or some other distinctive features, such as a dragon's head on the nose of a drakkar or a golden cloak ("golden luda"), were enough from the notorious Yakun, a comrade-in-arms of Yaroslav the Wise in the Battle of Listven.

This, however, does not mean that any distinctive signs were not used by the leaders at all. It was just that their purpose was different from that of coats of arms and banners.

First of all, such signs were used to mark the ownership of a particular object. In the east, such signs were called the word "tamga". The Slavs used the terms “znameno” or “spot”.

Such signs were used to mark livestock, other property (for example, coins), and were also used in land surveying as a prototype of modern border pillars, carving them, for example, on trees or stones. In later times, such signs were used to mark the products of artisans who worked in the prince's court and even bricks used for construction.

These signs were, as a rule, simple and unpretentious. And modern researchers even find it difficult to answer the question whether in most cases they carried any semantic load for their owners, or were they just a set of strokes, convenient for reproduction on any surface.

There are hundreds of examples of such signs. Especially often, for obvious reasons, they were used by steppe nomads and their neighbors.

Such signs were the personal mark of their owners. And they did not pass completely by inheritance from parents to children. However, members of the same family could use similar signs that have a single base and differing details from each other, and these differences could be significant.

Signs of the first representatives of the dynasty


With regard to the princes-Rurikovich, for the first time with such a sign, which can be absolutely reliably compared with its owner, we come across, examining the seal of Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich. This sign looks like this.

Have you seen a falcon here? Generic signs of Rurikovich

The figure shows that the personal sign (seal) of Svyatoslav Igorevich is a stylized inverted letter "P". Or a "bident" with a stand in the form of a triangle pointing downwards.

It is clear that the researchers were immediately interested in the question - when this sign first appeared in Russia.

In search of an answer, coin hoards found on the Dnieper and Volga trade routes greatly helped. The fact is that some of the coins have marks, the so-called "graffiti". And among them it is not so rare to come across signs that are similar in configuration to the symbol on the seal of Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich.

The oldest of these treasures dates back to 885 at the latest. This treasure contains a silver Arab dirham (minted in 878), on which you can see such a sign.


It turns out that this sign was inscribed between 878 and 885. And this is the period of the chronicle rule of Rurik in Novgorod.

Of course, on the basis of such a single find, we cannot assert that this is a sign of Rurik. Similar (I emphasize - similar, not exactly the same) signs were used in the Khazar Kaganate. And the coin could get such a mark there, and then arrive on the territory of Russia together with some Khazar merchant.

However, it is also impossible to ignore the obvious similarity between the sign of Svyatoslav and the symbol found on this coin.

Moreover, there are several more coins with similar images, which date back to somewhat later dates.

For example, a coin from the hoard near the village of Pogorelschina, hidden in the period up to 920, that is, during the reign of Igor Rurikovich. On which is inscribed such a sign.


Here, on one of the sides, we also see a bident. Moreover, with the naked eye, a certain continuity is noticeable, both between him and the sign of Svyatoslav, and between him and the sign of the period of Rurik's reign.

The development of the sign itself is also quite clearly demonstrated.

The first sign is from the times of Rurik, the second is from the times of Igor Rurikovich, the third is from Svyatoslav Igorevich.

So the assumption that the first coin bears the mark of Rurik does not seem so hasty. However, it will be possible to finally clarify this issue only with the accumulation of new and systematization of the available archaeological material.

Nevertheless, it becomes quite obvious that initially the sign of the Rurik dynasty was not a trident, but a bident. It was this symbol that Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich used and, possibly (and even very likely), his father and grandfather. As you can see, this sign has nothing in common with the attacking falcon in the form of a classic trident.

Falcon Trident


When did this very trident appear in the system of generic signs of the Rurikovichs?

And he appeared already with the children of Svyatoslav.

S.V. Beletsky, on the basis of his research, recreated the evolution of the signs of the Rurikovich, visually presenting it in a kind of family tree.


The diagram needs some comments.

We see that from the offspring of Svyatoslav Igorevich, two of his legitimate children, Yaropolk and Oleg, retained the bident as the basis of their generic sign. Whereas his third son Vladimir attached another middle tooth to the bident, thus forming a kind of trident.

This is how this sign looks on the coin of Prince Vladimir.


The third tooth is still much thinner than the others. And the whole sign still cannot lead to associations with a diving falcon. S.V. Beletsky (apparently not unreasonably) believes that the middle prong in the sign of Vladimir could be a symbol of his bastardism.

I would like to draw your attention to one more subtlety displayed in the diagram. Namely, the fact that Yaropolk Svyatoslavich and his son Svyatopolk Yaropolchich each used two images at once. Moreover, in both cases, one of these signs exactly repeats the symbol of Svyatoslav Igorevich himself - a simple bident.

This fact can be explained by the fact that before the death of Svyatoslav, each of his children had his own sign. Legitimate Yaropolk and Oleg are a slightly modified bident. And bastard Vladimir is a trident. After the death of Svyatoslav, Yaropolk became his legal heir. And from that moment he accepted and began to use the sign of his father - a simple bident.

Having seized power, Vladimir Svyatoslavich, for some reason, did not change his patrimonial sign. However, his nephew Svyatopolk, apparently being in some kind of opposition to Vladimir and considering Yaropolk to be his father, and his superiority over the descendants of his uncle-bastard, undeniable, began to use a simple two-pronged sign as his generic sign - a sign of his father and grandfather.

This behavior of his nephew was regarded by Vladimir as a challenge and resulted in the conflict of 1013, as a result of which Svyatopolk, among other concessions to Vladimir, changed his patrimonial sign, adding a cross to his left prong.

The result of the political struggle after the death of Vladimir Svyatoslavich was the death of Svyatopolk and the suppression of the older and legitimate branch of the Rurik dynasty. As a result, Svyatoslav's bident gave way to Vladimir's trident. His sons used only tridents as a generic sign.

The most famous of the sons of Vladimir, Prince Yaroslav the Wise, used the following sign.


In this sign, with a certain imagination, you can already see the silhouette of an attacking falcon. It was he, apparently, who became the basis of the legend about the "falcon" origin of the sign of Rurikovich.

Development of princely family signs


Supporters of this legend, however, as a rule, do not take into account the fact that in the future (up to the XIII century) the princely signs continued to change, sometimes transforming beyond recognition. So, for example, the generic signs of the descendants of Yaroslav the Wise looked.


These are generic signs, respectively, of the son of Yaroslav the Wise Izyaslav and his grandsons Yaropolk and Svyatopolk Izyaslavich.


And these are the generic signs of the princes of Rostov-Suzdal, and later Vladimir-Suzdal land: successively Vsevolod Yaroslavich, Vladimir Monomakh, Yuri Dolgoruky, Andrei Bogolyubsky and Vsevolod the Big Nest.

Or, for example, this is how the generic signs of the princes of the Chernigov branch looked like.


This figure shows, respectively, the generic symbols of Prince Oleg Svyatoslavich (the ancestor of the Chernigov Olgovichi) and his son Vsevolod Olgovich, who also occupied the great Kiev table.

As you can see, these signs in the overwhelming majority do not even remotely resemble a falcon.

There are many variations of the image of the generic sign of the Rurikovich. It doesn't make much sense to list them all in this article.

In some of them, with a special desire, you can see a falcon. Others, like the sign of Oleg Svyatoslavich, are more like a cat. Or, as a sign of Andrey Bogolyubsky, on a swan. But the general meaning of these symbols will not change from this - they all come from the original bident of Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich, who, in turn, with a high degree of probability is the heir to the generic sign of his father and grandfather.

Thus, the thesis that the ancestral sign of the princely dynasty of Rurik was a stylized falcon in attack (as well as the thesis about the Slavic origin of the name “Rurik”) seems to be refuted.

However, not all so simple.

In the next article, we will take a closer look at one find made by professional archaeologists in 2008. Which, on a superficial examination, threatened to significantly change the ideas of historians about the era under study.
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  1. Van 16
    Van 16 17 January 2021 05: 23
    +11
    Very interesting, thanks.
    And the question is, there are certainly versions of the semantic load of the original bident?
    1. Trilobite Master
      17 January 2021 06: 00
      +13
      Thank you for your feedback.
      Quote: Van 16
      versions according to the semantic load of the original bident

      Is. smile
      I did not mention this in the article, since this is my own suspicion, and I did not find confirmation of it in the scientific literature. But in the comments, I think this suspicion can be expressed. smile If I am not mistaken, in 1975, in the same Old Ladoga, the following artifact was found:

      This is a device for tuning a stringed musical instrument, in any case, as it was defined by experts. They call "Singing One", you can see more about him on this request. The fact that it is Odin who says that he does not have one eye, in addition, the experts of his "horns" are identified as two crows - Odin's companions.
      Finds of similar images were also made in Sweden.
      So I thought that this notorious bident could be a schematic representation of Odin and his eternal companions - the ravens. But, I repeat, I have not come across such interpretations in the scientific literature. Most researchers believe that Svyatoslav borrowed this sign from the Khazars defeated by him, especially since something similar was encountered there.
      I won't argue.
      1. Van 16
        Van 16 17 January 2021 06: 07
        +9
        Thank you. Not an expert, but in my opinion, this is a good and slender version, there is something in it hi
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 07: 41
        +9
        Hi Michael, my applause !!!
        In a broad sense, why are "images" needed on banners and shields? For effective command and control of troops on the battlefield. On "cattle" - to determine ownership. On seals and coins - this is to run the state.
        In the classical version of the story, the state of Rus arose from the capture of Kiev by the ruler Oleg.
        In philistine - from the moment the Varangians were called.
        According to the Russian Orthodox Church (there is one) - from baptism. True, I met two options from the baptism of Vladimir and from the baptism of Princess Olga.
        According to the false historians, from 25 to 7 thousand years and blah-blah-blah about the star temple and the Russian-Slavs-Aryans. It was similar in the Soviet, but without the Aryans, with the Scythians as plowmen and the Ros river.
        Now let's imagine Russia (Rurik, Oleg and Igor). Polyudye is a mobile state apparatus that in winter traveled around the state along rivers to conduct court proceedings and bargaining.
        Is symbolism necessary for such a state?
        So the "version with cattle" is more likely. Took the prey - we will brand it with a generic mark! Vladimir Svyatoslavovich took the prey from Arat Yaropolk - another stick was "slapped" on top of his generic two-pronged and a "trident" was obtained!
        For a smile, for the "Chernigov cat"!
        During the confrontation with Sparta, the Athenian citizens got so entangled in the "coats of arms" on their shields (and there was Mama Don't Cry: the letter alpha, an owl, a rooster, a five-pointed star, a "trinod" sign of wolf-legs) that they simply covered everything up with white paint.
        About the symbolic inverted letter "P" Rurikovich, in my opinion a typical "Lambda" of Sparta! However, the Sicilian Normans have the sun and the famous "trine" of wolf-legged Athens as a symbol !!! Well, Michael is giving the theory better than Fomenko !!! Descendants of Alexander the Great !!! wassat
        Yes, they fought everything that lies badly without knowing about copyright! Before the Colt is almost a thousand years without a ponytail !!!
        Thank you again!
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 17 January 2021 08: 03
          +8
          To find a starting point, you need to take something solid.
          For example, Winter. Or Kiev. Mass baptism in the Dnieper is also good.

          And if the bull passed from one leader to another and was marked with a brand, it must be a big bull. Respected.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 09: 19
            +7
            Quote: Korsar4
            And if the bull passed from one leader to another and was marked with a brand, it must be a big bull. Respected.

            Hello, Sergey!
            The cat will not be branded exactly under the tail !!!
            I think if inheritance were legitimate, then there is no point in changing the generic sign. But if there is a strife, then whose "stamp" on the sirloin is the "owner" !!! It could have gone from the banal. The vigilantes took Vladimir a good prey in the south, and here the infection in the form of a "two-tooth". We renewed the trademark and moved for "loot" or for barter in the south!
            Of course I play a little, but why make a garden !!!
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 17 January 2021 11: 50
              +6
              Hello Vladislav!
              If we remember the animal world: territory is marked.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 17 January 2021 22: 11
            +3
            For example, Winter.
            "Why did we take the Hermitage,
            In the seventeenth year "
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 17 January 2021 22: 24
              +3
              “How is this so, father? Kazan is ours! " (from).

              How is your health?
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 17 January 2021 22: 48
                +4
                "And my health is not very ... It hurts my paws, then the tail falls off" (C)
                Today I walked around winter St. Petersburg and the Hermitage.
                Conclusion: two Russians can create such a "crowd" that hundreds of Chinese never dreamed of!
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 18 January 2021 03: 31
                  +2
                  Are we really weaned from minus 20 ?! Not all systems survive.
                  So far the frost is good. And there is no fatigue from him.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 18 January 2021 09: 25
                    +3
                    It's warmer here. I just spent a month and a half at home, lost the habit of moving.
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 18 January 2021 11: 51
                      +2
                      Today minus 25 - 27. By Thursday, plus two is promised.

                      It's too early to get hammered into the stove.
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 12: 07
                        +2
                        I am not clogged. Fracture and cold, things are incompatible, if you don't want to lose a limb. And I could only put on a glove yesterday. And he went out into the street in a demi-season jacket, because the winter plaster of Paris did not fit into the cuffs.
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 January 2021 15: 26
                        +2
                        Yes. I was always convinced that a lair was necessary in case of molting or injury.
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 15: 33
                        +2
                        I have both at the same time. Yesterday, even in a cafe, I did not take off my glove so as not to shock people.
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 January 2021 17: 36
                        +2
                        Everything is passing. Are there any positive trends?
                      5. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 17: 43
                        +2
                        By the end of the week it will be clear.
                      6. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 January 2021 17: 55
                        +2
                        I thought about your molt. This is when "hairiness increases"?
                      7. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 18: 01
                        +2
                        The hand was in a cast, so it hadn't been washed for a month and a half. The dead epidermis peels off in layers, in rags of varying degrees of thickness. A little appetizing spectacle, I can act in horror films.
                      8. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 January 2021 18: 05
                        +2
                        Believe me, this is not the worst option.
                        Although, a man is, by definition, a breadwinner.
                        And the legs are fed.
                      9. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 18: 09
                        +2
                        Believe me, this is not the worst option.
                        Poor Professor Dowell!
                      10. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 January 2021 18: 31
                        +2
                        You got to the point.
                      11. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 18: 43
                        +2
                        I didn’t mean it, it just works.
                      12. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 January 2021 19: 01
                        +2
                        “Mockers are good prophets” (c).
                      13. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 19: 11
                        +2
                        God forbid from the path of the prophet!
                      14. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 January 2021 19: 47
                        +2
                        "In all ages
                        People burned at bonfires ”(c).
                      15. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 19: 50
                        +2
                        Well, I have already expressed my posthumous path long ago: the morgue, the crematorium, the Neva.
                      16. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 January 2021 20: 14
                        +1
                        Didn't think about the details. Someone will take care of it.
                      17. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 20: 25
                        +1
                        I thought about it in 2003. Including the heavy burden of worries of the deceased. Therefore, I worked out such a decision.
                      18. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 January 2021 21: 32
                        +1
                        It's important for the living. And so the difference is only in the details.

                        “Today is a holiday -
                        Tomorrow will be funeral "(c).
  • Trilobite Master
    17 January 2021 14: 11
    +9
    Hello, Vlad.
    One can argue endlessly about the moment of the emergence of the state. smile I will name two more, so, purely for reflection on the topic.
    The first is the date of the establishment of the first Varangian tribute, which later the Slovenes "did not give" to them and "invoked Rus" with Rurik at the head. And what - the territory, although it is not clear what it is, it seems as it is, there is a coercive apparatus, deductions are collected. And the subsequent "banishment" may testify precisely to the fact that before that the Varangians were directly there, on the spot, and did not run over from time to time.
    The second date is the date when Princess Olga replaced polyudya with rent. There is definitely something to think about. For the first time in the history of Russia, graveyards were established - in fact, the local administration was established, thereby, the vertical of power was drawn, and, finally, the borders of the state were clearly drawn.
    To be honest, I don’t see much difference in terms of what happened before Rurik and under him, and even under Oleg and Igor. In fact, nothing has changed, only the size of the controlled territory, or rather not even "controlled", but simply taxable. There was no talk of control - Igor's fate is a clear illustration of that.
    In short, if there was a "state" under Rurik, then it was before him, because he did not change anything, but only expanded the boundaries of his territory. Well, he founded a dynasty. But we will not identify the dynasty and the state, not in the XNUMXth century. we live, although for some you can’t tell ...
    Well, as for this generic sign itself, its history is dark. Even if I put forward my own theory, what to talk about? laughing Greek letters, Scandinavian runes, a horned skull, a symbol in the style of "shaman and leader" - the unity of spiritual and secular power, just an initial set of meaningless lines that have acquired a sacred meaning ... Maybe someday we will find out reliably.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 18 January 2021 03: 35
      +3
      The idea to start with Princess Olga personally caresses my ear.
      And the “shield on the gates of Constantinople” was nailed down by a gang, not by a representative of the state?
      1. Trilobite Master
        18 January 2021 12: 52
        +3
        Quote: Korsar4
        The idea to start with Princess Olga personally caresses my ear.

        "Patriot's Nightmare"! The founder of the state is a woman, non-Russian, besides a Christian! laughing
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 18 January 2021 15: 29
          +2
          Where are the contradictions between Christianity and patriotism?
          What was the nickname? Holy, Wise, Sly - not a bad combination.

          And the image is more prominent than Igor or Rurik.
          Perhaps the Prophetic Oleg could compete.
          1. Trilobite Master
            18 January 2021 15: 34
            +3
            Well, of course - a complete, directly grotesque opposite to the Russian Prince-Warrior, who believes in the ancient Slavic Gods, and not in some crucified Jew, who even has a patronymic according to his passport - Iosifovich. laughing
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 18 January 2021 17: 38
              +3
              Svyatoslav is not an ideal ancestor father.
              As far as I remember, the Slavs who did not accept Christianity eventually turned out to be assimilated. So?
              1. Trilobite Master
                18 January 2021 18: 16
                +3
                "Assimilated" sounded like "annihilated". smile
                Christianity spread for a long time and not without problems. It was only by the middle of the XNUMXth century that the princes finally abandoned pagan names and, in relation to the topic of the article, generic signs, putting an end to the tradition of two names and replacing generic signs with images of saints of the same name - their own saints, even among the highest aristocracy. and father. And some remnants of paganism have survived to this day.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 18 January 2021 18: 33
                  +3
                  Of course. But Christianity has already become dominant. And some tribes rejected him. They failed to survive.
                2. Trilobite Master
                  18 January 2021 19: 06
                  +3
                  So, in the end, no one succeeded - all became Russians and Slavs, and Finno-Ugrians, and Balt goliad (or Galindians), and torques with berendeys and black hoods (Turks) ... smile
                3. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 18 January 2021 19: 46
                  +3
                  You can't tell what Vyatich is in whom there is more.

                  I thought that the fate of the lyutichi was more tragic.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 11: 48
    +3
    Mikhail, bravo for the article! good Strengthening real historical knowledge, cutting off pseudo history! drinks
    Others, like the sign of Oleg Svyatoslavich, are more like a cat.

    Now, nothing human is alien to the princes - there was still someone who loves cats! laughing
  • D.Yu.
    D.Yu. 18 January 2021 23: 11
    +1
    "In short, if under Rurik there was a" state ", then there was before him, because he did not change anything, but only expanded the boundaries of his territory. Well, he founded a dynasty. But we will not identify a dynasty and a state, not in the XNUMXth century. we live, although for some you can't tell ... "
    The idea is correct and it was recorded by the monk Nestor in the chronicles 10 years before the arrival of Rurik, only further stupor. Nobody explained who came and built a state called RUSSIAN land.
    As for "put the dynasty" - come to our fire, a lot will surprise. And the founder of the country must be remembered, foreigners write such nonsense into the genealogy of the devil, don't worry, mom. Nothing - they live and study in schools, but we don't want to know our own?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 17 January 2021 06: 21
    +9
    In the next article, we will take a closer look at one find made by professional archaeologists in 2008. Which, on a superficial examination, threatened to significantly change the ideas of historians about the era under study.
    After reading the first part, I, with a high degree of probability, could have guessed the content of the second. But now intrigued!
    Thank you Michael!
    1. Trilobite Master
      17 January 2021 14: 26
      +6
      You're welcome. wink
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      After reading the first part, I, with a high degree of probability, could guess the content of the second.

      You, Anton, are like Lenin - "pretty smart, however." smile
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      But now intrigued!

      Let this be my little revenge for the spoiler for this article. laughing
      Not another hint! stop
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 17 January 2021 23: 01
        +3
        Trouble with you writing! Like you recognize as equal: You, Anton, are like Lenin - "pretty smart, however.", and all one feeling like an imbecile! crying laughing
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 17 January 2021 06: 52
    +9
    Nice, Mikhail. And convincing enough. The version is an extra prong - the bastard is also quite acceptable (after all, I'll start reading the story of Jon Snow).

    The only (joking) argument: if I had to draw a bird: not like a trident, the crocodile could be seen.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 17 January 2021 07: 00
      +10
      crocodile could be spotted
      This is how pterodactyls are drawn.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 17 January 2021 07: 06
        +9
        Yeah. Moreover, birds originated from dinosaurs.
      2. Illanatol
        Illanatol 17 January 2021 09: 45
        +3
        This is how pterodactyls are drawn.


        Our two-headed eagle has an Archeopteryx tail on its coat of arms.
        And is he no longer an eagle?
        You should not look for excessive naturalism in heraldry, past the box office.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 17 January 2021 10: 08
          +4
          You should not look for excessive naturalism in heraldry, past the box office.
          "Don't teach me how to live, better help me financially"
        2. Fat
          Fat 17 January 2021 11: 15
          +5
          hi Lucky you, I have never met Archeopteryx live. recourse Although there is a 50% chance of "either meeting or not meeting" yes
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 17 January 2021 11: 57
            +5
            Doesn't the skeleton count?
            1. Fat
              Fat 17 January 2021 12: 11
              +6
              hi The skeleton hasn't come across either. The likelihood is the same (either I will see it or not) Drawing a print with preserved feathers like I saw in a biology textbook, a long time ago recourse So, it seems (outwardly) from an eagle, it seems, only differs in teeth and wings request
              1. Fat
                Fat 17 January 2021 12: 17
                +6
                This one seems to be.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 17 January 2021 13: 09
                  +4
                  He is. Classic.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 17 January 2021 07: 02
      +7
      (after all, I'll start reading the story of Jon Snow).
      I started, didn't like it.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 17 January 2021 07: 07
        +4
        I plan to read a couple of books - for communication with my son.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 17 January 2021 07: 12
          +6
          It is also an option. I once put my eldest sons on my favorite authors.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 17 January 2021 07: 59
            +5
            With older daughters I already have mutual relations. Remarque in large numbers, "The Chronicles of Amber" and much more - already from them.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 17 January 2021 09: 32
              +6
              Quote: Korsar4
              With older daughters I already have mutual relations. Remarque in large numbers, "The Chronicles of Amber" and much more - already from them.

              Greetings! hi The Chronicles of Amber is my favorite book! And the best translation into Russian was made in Georgia, used by the Moldovan publishing house of Lumin)).
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 17 January 2021 10: 06
                +7
                Well! And then he went broke: Dostoevsky, idiot !!! laughing
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 17 January 2021 10: 58
                  +6
                  Come on - Crime and Panishment is one of my favorite books hi
              2. Korsar4
                Korsar4 17 January 2021 11: 51
                +4
                I liked the idea of ​​Chaos and Logrus very much.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 17 January 2021 12: 32
                  +5
                  Yeah, and each of them gives its own reflections))
                  I like dialogue the most there.
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 17 January 2021 13: 11
                    +4
                    Dialogues are good anyway. Like Remarque: the colorfulness of the language when people swear.
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 17 January 2021 13: 16
                      +4
                      Remarque is also one of my favorites. True, when I decided to read the Early Remarque, I was freaked out from the squalor of the works, but with the growth of skill he became as we know him hi
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 17 January 2021 13: 23
                        +5
                        By the way, "All Quiet on the Western Front" - does not hurt.
                        "Arc de Triomphe", "Three comrades" and, lately, more and more to the "Black Obelisk" I am turning.
                      2. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 17 January 2021 14: 18
                        +5
                        And the Black Obelisk, as a result, was delivered to BDSM - diva laughing
                        I love Life on loan. Rumor has it that Remarque muttered with Marlene Dietrich, who is the prototype of women emigrants in his works
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 17 January 2021 14: 41
                        +4
                        Yes. The next I would call: "Life on loan" and "Spark of life." It's good when you have a passport in your pocket. And not even Nansen's.
                      4. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 17 January 2021 15: 07
                        +4
                        Therefore, it is better when there are at least two of them. laughing drinks
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 17 January 2021 15: 12
                        +4
                        Wise Kolomoisky got three.
                      6. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 17 January 2021 15: 20
                        +5
                        Swiss, Ukrainian and Darkon, EMNIP)). Duc was the last and Abramovich got it. The only drawback is that you can't drive through it in Bali, the Indonesians are very worried about their Palestinian brothers laughing
                      7. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 17 January 2021 16: 53
                        +2
                        Why do we need a Turkish coast?

                        And when you receive a Syrian visa, you answer the question - have you been to Palestine?
      2. Fat
        Fat 17 January 2021 15: 17
        +5
        hi Albert. Chaos is a reflection of Logrus. The maze gave a second series of reflections.
        However, I liked "The Prince of Light" much more (The "chronicles" were published for a very long time ... 20 years!)
        "His followers called him Mahasamatman and claimed that he was a god. He, however, preferred to omit loud Maha- and -atman and called himself simply - Sam. He never proclaimed himself a god. On the other hand, he did not refuse it." (C)
        R. Zelazny
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 17 January 2021 15: 22
          +4
          Read, cool drinks hi
          Is chaos a reflection of Lagrus? what I will need to reread
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 17 January 2021 16: 54
            +2
            Yes. Logrus and the Labyrinth.
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 17 January 2021 17: 17
            +4
            Dvorkin screwed up, like ...
          3. Korsar4
            Korsar4 17 January 2021 18: 15
            +3
            Some come up with it. Others embody.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 17 January 2021 09: 41
    +2
    Quote: Korsar4
    that trident, the crocodile could be spotted

    if viewed schematically, then we can assume a head, awarded, um, ... horns yes
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 17: 46
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich
      Quote: Korsar4
      that trident, the crocodile could be spotted

      if viewed schematically, then we can assume a head, awarded, um, ... horns yes

      Why are you Andrey - a natural cat in profile with ears !!!
  • parusnik
    parusnik 17 January 2021 06: 58
    +9
    Falcon, not visible at all. smile And I have never been seen .. Thank you. We are waiting for the continuation.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 17 January 2021 07: 05
      +7
      In my opinion, it looks more like bats.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 17 January 2021 07: 11
        +7
        smile ... But seriously, there is no mouse there ... To find a stylization, some kind of living creature, as the author correctly said, is possible only with a violent imagination. For me, this is a very simplified stylization of Arabic script ..
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 17 January 2021 07: 14
          +6
          I won't mind. I only meant my own associations.
          1. depressant
            depressant 17 January 2021 08: 47
            +6
            Well, my fantasy is not entirely exuberant. I looked at the very first drawing, provided by the respected Mikhail, and saw the face of a deer from the front. Just a deer, that's all.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 17 January 2021 08: 55
              +7
              The holiday is gaining momentum!
              "In our crazy house" open day "" (C) laughing
              1. depressant
                depressant 17 January 2021 09: 05
                +9
                The house is not crazy, the house is cold! It’s minus 20 outside my window, I woke up with a feeling of covid, made a lot of strong-willed efforts to drive him out, gas burners - at full power, and I still remember yesterday's article about the battle with Napoleon. It's a pity for both of them - for the soldiers. I looked at the museum uniform, and it was paper. What insanity - war!
                Good morning everyone, colleagues!
                And no one gets sick. Otherwise, we already have losses, albeit temporary, but losses.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 17 January 2021 15: 14
                  +4
                  Warm clothing and movement saves. Of course: all - health!
        2. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 17 January 2021 09: 35
          +5
          Quote: parusnik
          smile ... But seriously, there is no mouse there ... To find a stylization, some kind of living creature, as the author correctly said, is possible only with a violent imagination. For me, this is a very simplified stylization of Arabic script ..

          By the way, it is quite possible. Leading, incl. culturally, the powers of that time were the Caliphate and Byzantium)).
          1. depressant
            depressant 17 January 2021 10: 09
            +6
            But imagine, colleague, a deer skull with antlers. The leader puts such a skull on his head, and it is clear to everyone: the leader! ))) The enemy sees him from afar, and it is clear to him: the leader!)))
            Well, this is me, of course, kidding, the ancestors were not so primitive in everyday life. But the Vikings dragged horns on their heads not as a sign of adultery. Or were they looking for sympathy? wassat ))))
  • Theodore
    Theodore 17 January 2021 07: 24
    +1
    Likes. Likes! Why are we slowing down?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 17: 49
      +5
      Quote: Theodore
      Likes. Likes! Why are we slowing down?

      This is for you on the dog forum, there are mainly specialists on cute cats and only one "who promised to teach dogs to love"! The truth is still walking with plaster. drinks
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 17 January 2021 18: 16
        +2
        By the way, about plaster. What's the news on hand restoration?
  • Smoke
    Smoke 17 January 2021 07: 53
    0
    on the very first sign, a diving falcon is clearly visible, the image is blurry, but in reality, when a falcon dives for prey, the tail is not visible, so where xs where there was any bident was seen ... Vladimir slightly corrected his generic sign, so that it is completely understandable it became that it was the falcon that was diving, that's all.
    1. Trilobite Master
      17 January 2021 14: 45
      +6
      Quote: Smoke
      at the very first sign, a diving falcon is clearly visible

      There are such people - you give him a cube in his hands, you ask - what is it? Answer:
      - Ball.
      - The ball is round! And this one has corners!
      - It's round (runs his finger along the edge).
      - The ball should roll.
      - He rolls (throws the cube on the table, rolling from one edge to another).
      - Here's the ball! (showing the ball).
      - It's not a ball.
      - And what?
      - Here is a ball (points to a cube). I don't know what it is.
      So do you. Amused, thanks ... smile
      1. Smoke
        Smoke 18 January 2021 02: 34
        -1
        Once again, for such clever men I repeat: the tail of a falcon in a dive is not visible, since the image of the whole falcon is blurred due to speed, is that clear? Can we speak Russian? Any contemporary of Rurik understood what this sign symbolized - the attacking falcon. I'm just shocked by modern "historians", not to see obvious things. Then, due to incorrectly interpreted data, they deduce some of their theories ... I regret that I did not go to the historical one in due time, I would put all your brains in place
        1. Trilobite Master
          18 January 2021 12: 53
          0
          Well, depict a falcon based on the seal of Svyatoslav. I think it will be a very funny falcon. laughing
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 January 2021 21: 03
          +2
          Quote: Smoke
          Once again, for such clever men, I repeat: the tail of the falcon in diving is not visible, since the image of the entire falcon is blurred due to speed, is that clear?

          And if the "bird" is fed with boiled peas, then you can count on gases, tfu on jet thrust !!!
          And if you also tie a pood stone around your neck and throw it off the bridge, then we will definitely teach the "diving" falcon a lesson !!! laughing
  • bubalik
    bubalik 17 January 2021 07: 57
    +8
    ,,,Well I do not know, recourse falcon or mice (bats), what else is there, some kind of Rorschach test laughing , in my opinion it's just a mutated omega-ω. And yes hello everyone hi Thanks to Michael Hotel for the article good
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 17 January 2021 08: 23
      +10
      Then McDonald's is a flying falcon! laughing
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 17 January 2021 08: 32
        +7
        The falcon beats a bird in flight. Perhaps an osprey, considering the presence of fish dishes.
        1. Illanatol
          Illanatol 17 January 2021 09: 39
          +5
          The falcon beats a bird in flight. Perhaps an osprey, considering the presence of fish dishes.


          Peregrine falcon beats prey in a dive.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNoaioMQWUY
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 17 January 2021 11: 58
            +2
            Of course. There is no doubt.
    2. parusnik
      parusnik 17 January 2021 11: 17
      +4
      some kind of Rorschach test
      .... No..Bronze bird-2..Khalzin meadow, Khalzanka river, all the clues in the coat of arms of the counts Karagaev smile
    3. Trilobite Master
      17 January 2021 17: 12
      +4
      Quote: bubalik
      in my opinion it's just a mutated omega-ω.

      Then psi - Ψ.
      But if you go according to the Greek letters, then the bident, the original, so to speak, material, is most suitable for upsilon - Υ
  • Boris55
    Boris55 17 January 2021 08: 17
    +6
    Quote: M. Burlakov
    Have you seen a falcon here?

    With the falcons sorted out - Rurik is a true Ukrainian. laughing
    What about embroidered shirts? Not really the same from there? belay
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 17: 52
      +2
      Quote: Boris55
      Quote: M. Burlakov
      Have you seen a falcon here?

      With the falcons sorted out - Rurik is a true Ukrainian. laughing
      What about embroidered shirts? Not really the same from there? belay

      How else! True, he has never been a sinful deed in Kyev !!!
  • depressant
    depressant 17 January 2021 09: 13
    +2
    Another phrase attracted attention:

    The Slavs used the terms “znameno” or “spot”.

    Is it not from here that the "banner" and "reputation stain" come from? It turns out that terms similar in their initial meaning have diverged over time?
    1. Fat
      Fat 17 January 2021 10: 29
      +3
      Quote: depressant
      Is it not from here - the "banner" and "a stain on reputation"?

      hi For example, I quickly came up with a "birthmark", well, of course, I completely agree with the banner. A banner is a sign - a sign and you don't have to invent anything yes
    2. Trilobite Master
      17 January 2021 14: 50
      +5
      Quote: depressant
      Is it not from here - the "banner" and "a stain on reputation"?

      And the game "tag".
      In modern terms, it would have sounded "branding". smile
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 17: 56
        +3
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Quote: depressant
        Is it not from here - the "banner" and "a stain on reputation"?

        And the game "tag".
        In modern terms, it would have sounded "branding". smile

        Chukhanka she Michael was in my school childhood!
        What about the stain? As always, I have malicious insinuations about "a hot rod under the tail" !!!
        1. Trilobite Master
          17 January 2021 18: 09
          +4
          Chukhanka? This is the first time I've heard this ... Live and learn. smile
          In childhood we used to say "play pиtna. "Then another" sifa "appeared - this is when they stained not by touching, but with some object, such as a ball, a paper lump or a rag, with which the blackboard was wiped in the classroom ...
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 18: 22
            +4
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Then another "sifa" appeared - this is when they stained not with a touch, but with some object, such as a ball, a paper lump or a rag, with which the blackboard was wiped in the classroom ..

            yes This is the "chukhanka", in my years only old men and senior classes called her "sifa"!
            Chalk rag our mustache, where are my 10 years old !!! laughing
            1. Trilobite Master
              17 January 2021 18: 35
              +3
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              where are my 10 years !!!

              In the same place where my twelve, probably ... Sank into oblivion because of their complete and final passing. smile
  • svp67
    svp67 17 January 2021 09: 27
    +7
    It is strange that the author, while mentioning the "western" trace in the formation of this sign, forgot to recall the "eastern" one. The Bulgars and their later "descendants", the ancient Bulgarians, as well as the Khazars, these signs were used VERY widely



    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 17 January 2021 10: 09
      +9
      Quote: svp67
      It is strange that the author, while mentioning the "western" trace in the formation of this sign, forgot to recall the "eastern" one. The Bulgars and their later "descendants", the ancient Bulgarians, as well as the Khazars, these signs were used VERY widely

      I will support: the Khazar trail should be considered much more carefully, let us at least remember that Vladimir and Yaroslav were called kagans.
      Khazar influence is generally quite underestimated in my opinion.
      1. svp67
        svp67 17 January 2021 10: 40
        +3
        Quote: Mihaylov
        Khazar influence is generally quite underestimated in my opinion.

        Especially in the current realities, the same Ukraine wink
        It is not for nothing that it is there that he is denied the MAXIMUM.
        Quote: Mihaylov
        Vladimir and Yaroslav were called kagans.

        Yes, apparently this was more familiar to the "local", as in the northern lands they were called "kings".
        In general, the "kagan" already mentioned Svyatoslav
        1. Connor MacLeod
          Connor MacLeod 17 January 2021 12: 20
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          Yes, apparently it was more usual for the "locals" as in the northern lands they were called "kings".

          Why do you think so? The name "kagan" in relation to Vladimir and Yaroslav is confirmed by written sources. There is no mention of the "kings".

          In general, the "kagan" has already mentioned Svyatoslav.

          Mentioned by whom?
          1. svp67
            svp67 17 January 2021 13: 01
            +5
            Quote: Connor Macleod
            Mentioned by whom?

            In the XNUMXth century, the eastern author Ibn Rust reports that the ruler of the Rus is called "Khakan-Rus". About half a century later, Metropolitan Hilarion calls the Baptist of Russia "kagan". Half a century later, an incompletely preserved inscription appears in the Chernigov Cathedral, dedicated to "our Kagan S. ..." - obviously, this means the ruler of Chernigov, and later Kiev, Svyatoslav Yaroslavich.
          2. Hantengri
            Hantengri 17 January 2021 13: 23
            +5
            Quote: Connor Macleod
            Why do you think so? The name "kagan" in relation to Vladimir and Yaroslav is confirmed by written sources. There is no mention of the "kings".

            Why not? There is. And it is in the "northern lands". Konungs Valdimar and Yaritsleif are mentioned in the Eimund Saga.
            1. Connor MacLeod
              Connor MacLeod 17 January 2021 13: 41
              +1
              These are Scandinavian sagas. Can you cite local sources?
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 17 January 2021 14: 07
                +6
                What does local sources have to do with it? We are about this:
                Quote: svp67
                Yes, apparently it was more usual for the "locals" as in the northern lands they were called "kings".

                is not it? Therefore, the Scandinavian sagas, in this case, are a fairly reliable source telling us that "poor sailors from the north" (c) called the rulers of Russia kings.
                1. Connor MacLeod
                  Connor MacLeod 17 January 2021 14: 12
                  +2
                  If Scandinavia was meant by "northern lands", then there are no questions. I thought that I meant the North of Russia.
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 17 January 2021 18: 18
              +3
              And all the wisdom from Ingegrid. The main thing is to choose the right wife.
      2. Connor MacLeod
        Connor MacLeod 17 January 2021 12: 42
        +1
        Quote: Mihaylov

        I will support: the Khazar trail should be considered much more carefully, let us at least remember that Vladimir and Yaroslav were called kagans.
        Khazar influence is generally quite underestimated in my opinion.

        Little is said about the Hungarians in the Dnieper region in the XNUMXth century ...
        1. svp67
          svp67 17 January 2021 13: 03
          +1
          Quote: Connor Macleod
          Little is said about the Hungarians in the Dnieper region in the XNUMXth century ...

          Well, you never know where they could end up after their emigration to Europe
          1. Connor MacLeod
            Connor MacLeod 17 January 2021 13: 47
            +2
            Well, this resettlement did not happen overnight. Meanwhile, when they left their ancestral home in the Volga region and settled on the Danube, at least 100 years passed. This is a very interesting period.

            It is quite possible that Kiev in the IX century could have been under the rule of the Hungarians, in the period between it was founded by the Khazars and conquered by the Vikings. As a version - the legendary prince Kiy could well be a Hungarian. As well as Deer ...
            1. svp67
              svp67 17 January 2021 13: 56
              +2
              Quote: Connor Macleod
              As well as Deer ...

              This is definitely not, he was from the Rurik people ...
              Quote: Connor Macleod
              As a version, the legendary prince Kiy could well have been a Hungarian.

              This is the one who was the carrier before the reign? But what about Cheek, Horeb and their sister Lybid?
              1. Connor MacLeod
                Connor MacLeod 17 January 2021 14: 38
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                This is definitely not, he was from the Rurik people ...

                Well, this is only according to PVL. A certain prince Dir is also mentioned among the Arabs, where he is much cooler than the neighboring prince Olwang, who is associated with Oleg. It does not seem that Deer had any subordinate position in relation to Rurik or his family.

                Quote: svp67
                This is the one who was the carrier before the reign?

                The PVL also mentions Kiya's expeditions to the Danube. This may well be equated with the conquest of Pannonia by the Hungarians.

                Quote: svp67
                But what about Cheek, Horeb and their sister Lybid?

                In any case, it is unlikely that the names Kiy, Schek and Khoriv were of Slavic, Scandinavian or Turkic origin.
                1. svp67
                  svp67 17 January 2021 14: 50
                  +1
                  Quote: Connor Macleod
                  It does not seem that Deer had any subordinate position in relation to Rurik or his family.

                  But this is indirectly indicated by the fact that he and Askold went out to the call of the arriving "Russians" headed by Igor, led by Oleg ...
                  Quote: Connor Macleod
                  In any case, it is unlikely that the names Kiy, Schek and Khoriv were of Slavic, Scandinavian or Turkic origin.

                  And Lyakh and Chekh? And what about Lybid?
                  1. Connor MacLeod
                    Connor MacLeod 17 January 2021 15: 56
                    0
                    Quote: svp67
                    But this is indirectly indicated by the fact that he and Askold went out to the call of the arriving "Russians" headed by Igor, led by Oleg ...

                    Such details that have come down to the chronicler 200 years later in the form of legends should be treated very carefully. As well as the dates indicated in the PVL should be considered very conditionally, especially with regard to the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries ...

                    Quote: svp67
                    And Lyakh and Chekh?

                    And what do they have to do with it? There is not a word about them in PVL.

                    Quote: svp67
                    And what about Lybid?

                    Well look:

                    Cue - it is quite possible that this is a distorted Hungarian male name "Kevu".
                    Cheeks - perhaps this distorted "Chak" - in Hungary there is such a well-known noble family.
                    Lybid - possibly distorted "Levedia" - the historical area of ​​the settlement of the ancient Hungarian confederation of tribes during their migration from an unknown ancestral home (Great Hungary) to Pannonia (modern Hungary)
                    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B0_%D0%B8_%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F
                    Billing Hariva I do not know yet...
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 17 January 2021 16: 28
                      +2
                      Quote: Connor Macleod
                      And what do they have to do with it? There is not a word about them in PVL.

                      They are in the "Czech Chronicle" by Kozma Prazhsky (beginning of the XII century), it tells about the arrival of a Slavic tribe in Bohemia, headed by the "forefather Czech", as well as in the "Great Poland Chronicle", where Rus also appears ...
                      1. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 17 January 2021 18: 32
                        -1
                        Well, this is all great, but what do they have to do with the foundation of Kiev?
                      2. svp67
                        svp67 17 January 2021 19: 02
                        +1
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        Well, this is all great, but what do they have to do with the foundation of Kiev?

                        Good question, but agree that their names are, to put it mildly, peculiar ... and consisting of three letters wink
                      3. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 18 January 2021 03: 50
                        0
                        Well, in general, in any case, the "Hungarian theory" must be developed. As well as "Slavic". Otherwise, we are all Normans and Khazars ...
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 18: 08
              +2
              The PVL also mentions Kiya's expeditions to the Danube. This may well be equated with the conquest of Pannonia by the Hungarians.

              Doesn't fit chronologically.
              Although there is no point in denying the Hungarian trace in the history of the Kiev land. Hungarians at that time were nomads, culturally close to the Pechenegs and Polovtsians. They could pass through the Khazar Kaganate only through the steppe. So it is more likely that they were, in a short historical sense, neighbors of the Slavic tribes. Possibly allies of the glades.
              1. Connor MacLeod
                Connor MacLeod 18 January 2021 05: 16
                +1
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                Doesn't fit chronologically.

                And what exactly doesn't fit? PVL does not give any dates, she only chronologically puts Kiy before the appearance of the Vikings. It is said that the founder of Kiev was a certain influential prince. His name was not Slavic. In addition, it should be noted that although Kiev was originally a Slavic settlement, it was not a tribal center. It acquired its significance as an outpost after the invasion of the Khazars and the defeat of the Pastoral settlement in the XNUMXth century. Accordingly, under the Slavs Kiev was not a political center. This is another argument in favor of the non-Slavic origin of Kiy. It also does not seem that Kiy was a Khazar.

                On the other hand, the raids of the Hungarians in Europe are mainly the first half of the XNUMXth century, respectively, they were then already in Pannonia. This means that for most of the XNUMXth century they still arrived in the Dnieper and Black Sea regions. Before the Vikings. All this is in excellent agreement with the PVL data. It should be noted that according to archaeological data up to the XNUMXth century, the Scandinavian presence in the Dnieper region is very, very weak.

                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                Although there is no point in denying the Hungarian trace in the history of the Kiev land. Hungarians at that time were nomads, culturally close to the Pechenegs and Polovtsians.

                In any case, it is necessary to raise the archaeological data of the XNUMXth century for Kiev, Kiev region and the Dnieper region. Establish whether Kiev was burning or not during this period, who was buried in the richest burials, and so on. The period is very interesting ...

                I repeat, the Scandinavian presence on the Dnieper in the XNUMXth century is very weak.

                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                They could pass through the Khazar Kaganate only along the steppe.

                The question is how far have the Hungarians advanced north into the lands of the Slavs. And the main question - who was Kiev under in the XNUMXth century? It turns out that this Khazar outpost was cut off from the rest of the Khazar Kaganate. Were the Hungarians able to resist capturing it? Or did he remain under Khazar control? Or did the local Slavs establish their own power?

                To find answers to all these questions, again, you need to look at archeology ...

                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                So it is more likely that they were, in a short historical sense, neighbors of the Slavic tribes.

                Not so short. It is quite comparable with the period of Khazar rule in Kiev in the XNUMXth century or with the Norman period in the XNUMXth century.

                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                Possibly allies of the glades.

                Well, they were not allies. According to Greek sources, the Hungarians attacked the Slavs. The mentality of the inhabitants of the Early Middle Ages was rather harsh ...
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 January 2021 05: 44
                  +1
                  I will analyze your answer in detail in the evening, now I am running to work!
                  In short, the conflict of the Ugrians with the satellites of Khazaria, the Guzes and the northerners, is known to us in time - this is the reign of Princess Olga.
                  Kiy, according to historians, if he was, then preceded Askold and Dir. Of course, if this is not one person at all - Askold, nicknamed the Beast (Dir).
                  Yours!
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 17 January 2021 14: 29
    +1
    Quote: Mihaylov

    I will support: the Khazar trail should be considered much more carefully, let us at least remember that Vladimir and Yaroslav were called kagans.
    Khazar influence is generally quite underestimated in my opinion.

    Kagans from were called from the kings, not from the Coens laughing
  • Trilobite Master
    17 January 2021 15: 13
    +4
    Quote: svp67
    the author, referring to the "western" trace in the formation of this sign, forgot to recall the "eastern" one.

    I just didn't emphasize this "track". He considered that it was enough to mention him, especially since he, despite the abundance of all kinds of tamgas among nomads, Khazars and other neighbors of the Slavs, is no less and even darker than the "western" one. The assertions of researchers regarding the borrowing of tamga by Svyatoslav from the Khazars also need substantiation, of which there are none. It's like in the previous article - there is a word similar to the name Rurik - we write: one came from the other ...
    Personally, I first of all have one question: with such an abundance of samples of tamgas in Khazaria, and in general in the steppe, why was this one chosen?
    Although, in general, I was only partially interested in the origin of the mark, I did not delve into this issue specifically in relation to the preparation of this article. So it would be possible right up to the Bosporus kingdom - there they also had similar symbols.
    I wrote specifically about the "falcon" theme in the signs of princes.
    1. svp67
      svp67 17 January 2021 15: 22
      +3
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      With such an abundance of samples of tamgas in Khazaria, and indeed in the steppe, why was this one chosen?

      Is there a "reference" for them? Do we know why and how, or why there was such a sign on one, on another. Maybe this was "dominant" or meant the fortress of Kiev during the Khazar. First you need to understand what it could mean and what privileges it gave.
      1. Trilobite Master
        17 January 2021 15: 47
        +6
        That's it. So far, in fact, we have only an external resemblance of the sign used by Svyatoslav with the signs used - who? for what purpose? - in Khazaria and the steppes of the Northern Black Sea region. All.
        Nothing about the content of these signs, about their origin, purpose, etc.
        In the list of references to the first article there is a monograph by S. Yatsenko "Signs-tamgas of the Iranian-speaking peoples of antiquity and the early Middle Ages." M. 2001. I will not say that I thoroughly studied it, but I got a definite, basic idea of ​​tamgas, their diversity and typology. The preliminary conclusion is that the devil will break his leg. smile
        Therefore, personally, I am not inclined to a certain direction of this "trace". There are facts - coins found there and there with such and such graffiti, there is the seal of Svyatoslav. Maybe these two-prongs are Khazar signs, maybe Scandinavian, maybe Slavic. Or maybe generally collective. If you want - try to figure it out, it may be interesting.
    2. ee2100
      ee2100 17 January 2021 19: 43
      +3
      Michael! I read it and realized that it is not so simple! Good article, and most importantly it is yours! These are your thoughts and reasoning. This is especially nice. Where without it!
      "Although, there are, there are such ... Remember at least the followers of Zadornov ..." (c) You do not equate yourself with the great satirist of our time. With the perception of our history m. and he had and had a dissonant congytuvism. And everything else is already classics!
      1. Trilobite Master
        17 January 2021 21: 48
        +3
        Thank you, Alexander.
        About
        Quote: ee2100
        You do not equate yourself with the great satirist of our time

        I immediately remembered the work of Vadim Shefner:
        Don't forget that you are not Pushkin,
        And do not go to compete with him, -
        Brick on the skull
        We will bless you!

        laughing
        I respect Zadornov's creativity to amuse the people. In this regard, if not a genius, then a talent of a high standard. But:
        The trouble is, if the cobbler starts the cakes,
        And boots stitch pastry:
        And it will not work well,
        Yes, and a hundredfold
        What who loves to take someone else’s craft,
        He forever others stubborn and foolish;
        He’s better to ruin everything
        And glad soon
        The laughing stock of becoming light
        Than honest and knowledgeable people
        Ask il to listen to reasonable advice.

        This is what grandfather Krylov wrote about Zadornov specifically. I am sincerely sorry that among the samples of Zadornov's creativity there are his "Rurik" and "Oleg", but you cannot erase words from the song. No one forced him to carry out such projects. Now, personally, in my perception, a good humorist writer has stained his reputation with pseudo-historical rot, deliberately joining the cohort of Fomenko, Prokopenko, Chudinov and others. I personally cannot have any respect for such people.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 18 January 2021 01: 33
          +2
          There are lees to every wine.
          1. Trilobite Master
            18 January 2021 12: 54
            +1
            It's just that everyone should mind their own business.
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 18 January 2021 13: 21
              +2
              Good day. Well-known writers in their time turned to the topic of history (Akunin, Weller, etc.) I have a prosaic explanation - they have written out. But one cannot but admit that Zadornov, having access to TV, did a lot to popularize the history of Russia, albeit from his own point of view. The one who does nothing is not mistaken.
              You are also not a historian by profession, but you have your own vision of some aspects of history and I respect them.
              I repeat, I liked that this is your conclusion. The last article that I liked here was about the symbiosis of the Varangians (Vikings) and the Slavs. And so all are some kind of semi-through. They retell other people's texts and that's it.
              1. Trilobite Master
                18 January 2021 14: 47
                +1
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                And glad soon
                The laughing stock of becoming light
                Than honest and knowledgeable people
                Ask il to listen to reasonable advice.

                If you want to popularize history, study history. Zadornov deliberately rejected the works of professional historians and linguists and based his "popularizing" opuses on irresponsible fantasies, partly his own. This is what I blame him for.
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 18 January 2021 15: 37
                  +1
                  I also do not like the conclusions of prof. Historians on some facts of national history. And what is my fault?
                  "This is what I blame him" (c) a person can be mistaken, and you sew him a crime.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    18 January 2021 16: 11
                    +1
                    Human consciously rejected a scientific approach to solving the issue. This is his fault, and not that he adheres to any other point of view.
                    1. ee2100
                      ee2100 18 January 2021 16: 33
                      +1
                      I am not at all a supporter of writing after articles "what a great article, thanks to the author, etc."
                      I write when I disagree or I have my own opinion.
                      You mentioned Zadornov in your commentary, I don’t know why he annoyed you so much that even after his death you cannot calm down.
                      What about, "De mortuis nil nisi bonum"?
                    2. Trilobite Master
                      18 January 2021 18: 10
                      +1
                      I explained why some of the fruits of his work are unpleasant to me. And I can still watch his concerts with pleasure and smile, including his linguistic exercises - as good jokes. I hope that in ten years all his creative experiments in the field of history will be forgotten and he will remain in the memory of people just as a talented comedian.
                    3. ee2100
                      ee2100 18 January 2021 18: 44
                      +1
                      I see no point in further discussion. Good luck!
          2. D.Yu.
            D.Yu. 18 January 2021 22: 58
            +1
            By the way, about Akunin! He had the opportunity to go out on a bright search for truth in our ancient chronicles. He felt it slightly, began to investigate and abandoned it, not understanding the meaning of his discovery. True, and did not get into the top ten, but almost into milk, but the idea was correct. I wrote to him about this, but there was no answer. Either did not receive the mail, or is silent.
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 18 January 2021 23: 44
              +1
              I got the feeling that literary slaves are plowing for it. And he probably doesn't read email.
              And what did he "feel" in the annals?
              1. D.Yu.
                D.Yu. 18 January 2021 23: 47
                +1
                I don't know who writes to Akunin, but the idea of ​​the writer was correct, but not fully worked out. If you are interested in Akunin, read Akunin.
                If the story is for real, write me [email protected]
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 17 January 2021 09: 33
    +2
    In those early years, there were not so many warriors (and, accordingly, the leaders who commanded them) that they could be confused


    How to say: in even older years, the army of Ancient Rome numbered 650 thousand people, and its payroll reached up to a million, which is more than any army of a European state since the appearance of coats of arms.

    there was no particular need for the mandatory wearing of some distinctive signs for soldiers and leaders then

    the emblems of the Roman legions, Roman standards, imagos, etc. were much earlier than not only the coats of arms but also the times of tamga.

    The article is interesting, thanks.
    1. Deniska999
      Deniska999 17 January 2021 10: 07
      +6
      in even earlier years, the army of Ancient Rome numbered 650 thousand people

      Where did you get these numbers? In the North at the beginning of the III century - 400-450 thousand. With an early principate - 300-350 thousand. Under the dominance - no more than 400 thousand (there are really two camps - some historians prefer to overestimate up to 500-600 thousand, others rely on the message of John Lida, who reported 381 thousand). As for me, after the bloody crisis of the XNUMXrd century, the lower limit looks more realistic.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 17 January 2021 14: 33
        +1
        Quote: Deniska999
        Where did you get these numbers?

        From here:
        After the reforms of Diolektian and Constantine, the number of the Roman army reached 600-650 thousand people, of which 200 thousand were the mobile army, and the rest were garrisons. ... According to some data, in the era of Honorius, the payroll of the troops of both parts of the Roman Empire was 900-000 soldiers.

        East John Bury Barbarians and Rome. The collapse of the empire. Forces of empire and barbarians

        Delbrück G. History of military art in the framework of political history. "Directmedia Publishing". Moscow, 2005. "Schedule of posts" and digital data on the number of troops
        Quote: Deniska999
        at the beginning of the III century - 400-450 thousand

        which is more than any European army of the era of the appearance of coats of arms
        1. Deniska999
          Deniska999 17 January 2021 15: 20
          +1
          which is more than any European army of the era of the appearance of coats of arms

          Incomparable things. The empire in three parts, after all, it was logical that the army was large)

          Bury and Delbrück lived a century ago, since then many new works have appeared, including Russian historians. For example, Bannikov published a lot of articles on this subject.

          About a million under Honoria, absolutely fantastic numbers) It seems that all the units from Notitia Dignitatum were multiplied by their size in the era of the early empire.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 17 January 2021 10: 21
      +3
      The army differs from the crowd by a single leadership and control. The maximum number of armies on the battlefield with the management of messengers and with the control of the task with the help of telescopes was reached in Napoleonic times (the beginning of the XNUMXth century) and amounted to several hundred thousand bayonets, so you need to be careful about trusting Roman sources.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 18: 16
        +2
        We count! On average, Rome contained 30 legions (upper border). The maximum staffing of the legion is 6000 people. It turns out 180 thousand. Plus the federates on the maximum bar another 000. Plus the fleet, about 180 people. In total, a little over 000 thousand.
  • Fat
    Fat 17 January 2021 10: 19
    +6
    hi Thank you, Mikhail. Great article. The continuation is intriguing to the point of impossibility.
    1. depressant
      depressant 17 January 2021 12: 19
      +2
      But something else intrigues me: the influence of those, the influence of these. Where is your own influence? I do not think that the ancestors were poor in imagination.
      1. Fat
        Fat 17 January 2021 12: 25
        +5
        I think we need to wait a little, the continuation is promised. We will see and think about it - we will discuss.
        un mondo in cui i paranormali non vivessero come una mutazione, un mostro della natura, ma come una creatura meravigliosa, benedetta con doti stupefacenti.
        (About a world in which our species will be considered not a mutation, a mistake of nature, but a blessing endowed with amazing gifts.)
      2. Trilobite Master
        17 January 2021 15: 20
        +5
        Quote: depressant
        I do not think that the ancestors were poor in imagination.

        So the influence cannot be just like that, it is always on something. There is something of his own, something alien influences him, and so something new is born. If someone says that the Byzantine culture influenced the Slavs, this means only one thing - by that time the Slavs already had their own culture. This is the difference between "influence" and "borrowing", it seems to me.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 17 January 2021 12: 45
    +6
    Michael! I will not touch on the content - it is not interesting to me. But the shape! In my opinion, the submission form can be considered absolute! Add links and footnotes - a finished scientific article at the level of the journal Rodina and Voprosy istorii! You are well done!
    1. Trilobite Master
      17 January 2021 15: 27
      +6
      Thank you for your kind words, Vyacheslav Olegovich.
      I would like it to be not very academic, otherwise it will be boring to read, but also serious enough to inspire confidence in the syllable. You can present the same information in the style of the Satyricon, but then the people will simply laugh and forget. Who believes in clowns these days? Although, there is, there are such ... Recall at least the followers of Zadornov ...
      But all the same, I would like the information presented in my articles to settle in the heads, so I have to be serious.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 17 January 2021 16: 11
        +4
        This is what causes my main pleasure: the ability to walk along the golden mean, from sliding down to the banal - "Look how interesting - an eagle in a circle .... and abstruse -" the category of the transcendent. "This is the most valuable thing. It's nice that you can do that.
        1. Trilobite Master
          17 January 2021 16: 52
          +3
          Thanks again. I repeat, your positive assessment is always especially pleasant. smile hi
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 17 January 2021 17: 22
            +5
            Continue on, Mikhail. Nobody knows their fate, they don't know where what will turn, what will happen in 10, 20 years. The main thing is to have something done, in this case written. Perhaps someday it will be useful to you again and again ... There will be something to "show". Those who do not write will have nothing to show!
            1. Trilobite Master
              17 January 2021 18: 02
              +5
              Where am I going? smile
              It asks after all ... What's the point of this knowledge, if you don't tell anyone about it ... No, there are, of course, people who can buy a bottle of good expensive wine and put it in the closet without ever trying ... And such position also has the right to life, of course ... But it does not suit me. For me it is better to buy two, drink one at once, and the second ... then, depending on the mood. smile
              Here is the same thing: information has accumulated, you need to share it, brag, like, what I know!
              So this is, in general, my normal need - to grind with language, tell stories, share thoughts, "discoveries" ... In this case, it is realized in such a bizarre way.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 17 January 2021 18: 21
                +3
                Famous Mayevsky, author of the plant guide. “I want to pop like a magpie. Maybe only I know how amazingly a watermelon works. " I see.
              2. kalibr
                kalibr 17 January 2021 18: 46
                +4
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Here is the same thing: information has accumulated, you need to share it, brag, like, what I know!
                So this is, in general, my normal need - to grind with language, tell stories, share thoughts, "discoveries" ... In this case, it is realized in such a bizarre way.

                ++++++++++++++++++++ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Cure72
    Cure72 17 January 2021 16: 40
    +3
    Thanks for the continuation Mikhail!
  • bandabas
    bandabas 17 January 2021 18: 19
    +3
    Heraldry is generally an interesting science. But the ideal is the coat of arms of the USSR, in which the possible and the impossible are intertwined! Unfortunately.
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 18 January 2021 03: 27
    +1
    With regard to the princes-Rurikovich, for the first time with such a sign, which can be absolutely reliably compared with its owner, we come across, examining the seal of Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich. This sign looks like this.

    By the way, how is it known that this is the seal of Svyatoslav? With Vladimir and Yaroslav everything is clear, there are inscriptions on the coins ...
  • D.Yu.
    D.Yu. 18 January 2021 22: 23
    +3
    Good gentlemen, citizens, comrades, guys, boys!
    How do you live? How do you manage to discuss everything in one hour and not find out anything. You want to know everything and you don't know anything. On the previous article about Rurik, I prepared a corresponding commentary, while registering, the topic flew into oblivion.
    You and the prince first figure it out, and then study the nuances. For whom do you need to look for something and poke around in the multitude of ancient chronicles, if you do not need an answer?
    Let's do it this way: who is interested in Rurik, not in the variant "Well, what did you want to say about Rurik?" Who is ready to devote time to studying the issue, really, in an adult way, if you, like me, were hooked by the incomprehensibility of Nestor's chronicle, write to:
    [email protected]
    I ask you not to disturb those who are suffering from idleness. There were very sensible thoughts in the comments on Rurik. It's nice to have a dialogue with such people. With gourmets from history.
    D.Yu.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 18 January 2021 22: 33
      +1
      This site, like others, has its pros and cons.
      The e-mail mode can weed out a lot.

      Yes. The current format is that of a newspaper. But you can also look at the newspaper a week ago.
      1. D.Yu.
        D.Yu. 18 January 2021 22: 48
        +1
        Forum is an option to find like-minded people. Its format is not suitable for serious discussions, and it is not needed. People come here to potryndet, but those who come have extremely smart thoughts and, accordingly, the people who give them away are interesting, and this is the greatest value. With a smart one you can become smarter. I do not continue the phrase about ...
        That is why I propose a conversation on a given topic in the format of an adult discussion, with a very serious desire of a person to get to the bottom of a solution to the problem.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 18 January 2021 22: 56
          +1
          Probably all of us are digging up something. At the same time we live.
          Everyone comes in their own way.
          Deep discussion is not always the case.
          But the search directions can be discerned.