Military Review

Rurik: Rarog, Rerik or Hrórekr?

467
Rurik: Rarog, Rerik or Hrórekr?

Rurik ...



"How much of this sound has merged for the Russian heart ..."

In this article, I do not want to go all over again, proving the Norman origin of the founder of the ruling dynasty of the Old Russian state.

Enough has been said about this. As far as I know, nothing new on this issue has appeared in historiography recently.

And, in the end, is it so important what language his mother or nurse spoke to Rurik? For me personally, this question is far from being of primary importance.

It is much more important to understand and more interesting to discuss the role of the Scandinavians in the formation of the Old Russian state as a whole, as well as the degree of their influence on economic and political processes in the course of its creation and further development.

Today we will talk about the so-called

"Coat of arms of Rurik" or "falcon of Rurik".

And also about the possibility of interpreting the origin of the name "Rurik" on behalf of the ancient Slavic deity Rarog.

This question, as it turned out, is not so simple. And that's why it's interesting.

Is Rurik a Slav?


So, let's formulate a hypothesis. And in the course of our research, we will try to either confirm or deny it.

The hypothesis in its most general form will sound as follows:

“The name“ Rurik ”is not necessarily a proper name.

It can also be either a nickname or a title of the Slavic prince who became the founder of the ruling dynasty of the Old Russian state.

It comes from the name of the ancient Slavic god Rarog, who was represented by our ancestors in the form of a falcon.

Or from the West Slavic word "rerik", meaning, in fact, "falcon".

This is reflected in the generic symbolism of the Rurikovich. Namely, in their generic sign, depicting an attacking falcon. "


I think this formulation should suit most of the supporters of this hypothesis. In all its variants.

I draw the readers' attention to the fact that in this hypothesis the similarity of the names of Rurik and Rarog, as well as the "falcon motives" in the symbolism of Rurik, are precisely the arguments confirming the main thesis - the Slavic origin of Rurik.

The construction logic is simple and straightforward.

Rarog (or "Rerik", in this case it doesn't really matter) is a Slavic falcon. The Rurik people used the falcon in their ancestral heraldry. Consequently, the name Rurik is a distorted name Rarog (go "Rerik"). This means that Rurik himself is a Slav.

For the first time such a hypothesis was voiced by S.A. Gedeonov in his research "Varangians and Rus".

In Soviet times, the same version was supported to some extent (very carefully) by A.G. Kuzmin and O. M. Rapov, using very streamlined formulations for this. So, for example, A.G. Kuzmin in his article "Varangians and Russia on the Baltic Sea" literally wrote the following.

Already S. Gedeonov drew attention to the connection of the generic sign of the Rurikovichs with the symbol of the reregs - the falcon ...

It can be assumed that it was the natives of the tribe of Reregs, "Frankish" Slavs, Rus "from the Franks" who seized power in Kiev at some stage (hence Rurik - Rereg).

But it would be wrong to confine oneself to one dynasty, one tribe, and even one ethnic group in explaining different facts of the Russian stories.

O. M. Rapov in his article "Signs of Rurik and the symbol of the falcon" expressed himself more specifically.

This researcher drew attention not only to the symbolic similarity of some emblems used by the princes-Rurikovich, with a diving falcon (which we will talk about in more detail a little later), but also to the fact that Russian princes were called "falcons" in epics and in such an iconic work Russian literature as "The Word about Igor's Regiment." The authenticity of which, thanks to the achievements of such a science as historical linguistics, is currently beyond doubt.

Citing numerous examples of the mention of such names, O.M. Rapov writes:

The fact that the princes from the house of Rurikovich are called epics and the "Word about Igor's Regiment" "falcons", speaks for the fact that the falcon was the emblem, the coat of arms of the clan that headed the feudal elite of Kievan Rus.

It is possible that the falcon in ancient times was the totem of the clan from which the princely family came.

It is noteworthy that even by “tying” the symbol of the falcon to the dynasty of the rulers of the Old Russian state, OM Rapov, nevertheless, did not begin to conclude on this basis about its obligatory Slavic origin. And he limited himself to mentioning the hypothesis of the same S.A. Gedeonov on the possible identity of the concepts "Rarog" (rerik) and "Rurik". And he did not develop this idea in the context of his research.

Thus, the argumentation of the mentioned researchers comes down to two main points.

First. Slavic origin of the name Rurik by distorting the ancient Slavic "Rarog" (the name of the ancient Slavic god, one of the images of which was a falcon) or the West Slavic "Rerik" (actually, the falcon).

Second. The use by Russian princes of totem / clan / heraldic symbols with the image of a falcon.

Let's try to deal with these arguments in more detail.

Historical linguistics against!


So, the first point.

Let's start a little from afar.

In connection with the discovery in the second half of the twentieth century birch bark letters in Novgorod, and then in other cities, Russian historical linguistics has managed to make a big step forward.

The fact is that in those ancient years, when, in fact, these birch bark letters were written, there were no spelling rules yet. And people wrote as they spoke, as they heard. Moreover, each sound in the alphabet had its own graphic symbol.

Studying the texts written not only by scientists, "book men", but also by ordinary people for their purely business purposes, we come across a lively direct speech of that period. And, having sets of such texts over several centuries, we can trace how the spoken Russian language has changed over time. And we can also reveal the patterns of these changes and even reconstruct its phonetics.

Linguistics, in general, is a mathematically exact science with its own strict rules.

One of these immutable rules is that when changes occur in a living language and one phoneme is replaced by another, then this happens absolutely in all cases of using these phonemes in a similar position.

In other words, it is impossible that in one language, if we began to speak "Sevodnya" instead of "today", as our ancestors said, we would continue to say "what" instead of "Chevo", as we say now, or "him" instead of "Nevo"... And these very phonetic transitions always occur exactly according to strict rules. And nothing else.

Thus, knowing these rules, you can, I repeat, often with mathematical precision reconstruct the pronunciation of very many words that are now pronounced completely differently. And, in any case, one can almost always say how these phonetic transitions could not have happened exactly.

The example with "Rarog" and "Rerik", in relation to their hypothetical phonetic transition to "Rurik" - this is exactly the case when "they could not."

This is clearly stated by the leading Scandinavist of the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Doctor of History and Candidate of Philology E. Melnikov:

The derivation of the name Rurik from the Pomor-Slavic word "rerig" ("falcon"), as well as the interpretation of the names Sineus and Truvor as the phrases "sine hus" and "tru varing" - "with their own house" and "faithful squad" - are incredible in linguistic considerations.

Details of linguistic studies of this issue, on the basis of which E.A. Melnikova made such a categorical conclusion, I, frankly, did not find. Although I tried to find.

However, given my little experience of acquaintance with works on historical linguistics, it would not help me much - such works, as a rule, are replete with specific terms familiar only to specialists. And it is very difficult for amateurs. To fully understand the logic of the argumentation presented in them, special training is required, which I personally do not have. Therefore, I would still go straight to the conclusions, which, in fact, have already been outlined above.

With regard to the name "Rurik" there is only a detailed phonetic transformation from the Old Scandinavian name "Hrórekr", which means "rich in fame" or "glorious ruler" (the ancestors well and in those days understood that "wealth" and "power" are the same root words), the name is quite common, especially in Jutland.

From the point of view of historical linguistics, this transformation falls, as they say, "in the very color." The phonetic transition "Yo" into "U" and the disappearance of a consonant at the end of a word in a similar position is scientifically fully confirmed.

An example is the word "hook", also borrowed from Old Norse, in which it originally sounded like "Krókr"... Those who want to be convinced of the correctness of the given example can inquire about the etymology of the word "hook" on the corresponding resources.

It is also worth adding that if you look closely at the names that parents gave their children in those days, you can see that in the case of two-part names (such as Rurik, Rogvolod, Truvor, or, if we take Slavic names, Yaroslav, Vladimir, Svyatopolk) children were often endowed with a part of the name of a parent or grandfather.

Then the choice of a name by Prince Igor Rurikovich for his son becomes clear. The name Svyatoslav contains the root "glory", which is a literal translation into the Slavic language of the first part of the name of Father Igor - "Hród" - glory, in fact, the basis of the name "Hrórekr", that is, "Rurik".

Separately (even with some degree of sadness) I would like to note that the supporters of the Slavic origin of the name "Rurik" themselves do not bother to scientifically substantiate the phonetic transition of the words "Rarog", "rarokh", "rerig" or "rerik" into the word "Rurik". But this is one of the key constructions in their hypothesis.

To justify such authoritative researchers as Gedeonov, Rapov and Kuzmin (although they hardly need them), we can say that they carried out their experiments in 1876, 1968 and 1970. Respectively. At that time, applied research in the field of historical linguistics was in fact still in its infancy. Due to the lack of comparative material and appropriate methods for their implementation.

Conclusion


So, we were convinced that at present science has absolutely no grounds, not only to support the thesis about the Slavic origin of the name "Rurik", but does not even have sufficient arguments to at least somehow clearly substantiate it.

All statements of the supporters of the truth of this thesis are based solely on assumptions. And they are not backed up by any serious arguments.

While the supporters of the hypothesis of the Scandinavian origin of the name "Rurik" justify their point of view quite convincingly.

In the next article we will talk about the proper generic signs and symbols of the Rurikovichs and about their evolution in the process of their use by various generations of the princes of the dynasty, and also consider the possibility of their "falcon" origin.
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 15 January 2021 04: 50
    +5
    Thank you, Michael.
    It's good that we took up the topic. Although, in my opinion, the idea of ​​justifying the legend is not at all an easy one. And the figure of Rurik is still legendary for us.

    Legends do not need justification.
    1. A. Privalov
      A. Privalov 15 January 2021 05: 31
      +12
      Quote: Korsar4
      Legends do not need justification.

      Quite right, because amateur linguistics is not a grateful thing at all. hi
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 15 January 2021 07: 38
        +10
        Quote: A. Privalov
        Quote: Korsar4
        Legends do not need justification.

        Quite right, because amateur linguistics is not a grateful thing at all. hi

        Yes, I immediately remembered the famous:
        "The skipper on" Santa Maria "... was Juan de la Cosa... But we all well know that the word "Cossack" comes from the word "scythe"! As for the name "Juan", it is nothing more than the Spanish modification of our Ukrainian "Ivan". So, we have: the closest associate of Kolomyets was Ivan Kozak. "

        Kolomyets - "Columbus" - "Colombo" - "Kolom", and Kolom means he comes from Kolomyia, a Ukrainian town in the Carpathian region (c)


        I agree with the distinguished author that. what
        In this article, I do not want to go all over again, proving the Norman origin of the founder of the ruling dynasty of the Old Russian state.
        .

        For this is not provable.
        1. Machito
          Machito 16 January 2021 12: 11
          +4
          It does not matter what origin Rurik had Slavic or Scandinavian, it is important that he spoke Slavic, and the Slavs did not consider him a foreign invader. The Eastern Slavs always knew how to partisan well against foreign invaders (forests have this) and against Stefan Batory, Sigismund, Karl, and against Napoleon and Hitler. If the Slavs considered Rurik a foreign invader, they would have spartized him in our forests, and his name would not have been in the annals.
          1. nickname7
            nickname7 24 January 2021 18: 55
            +1
            In order to better imagine who the kings or princes with squads are, you can turn to modern counterparts, people who were part of the squad in their mentality, habits and behavior are typical bandits, respectively, the prince is the authority of a gang of gangsters. They "held the territory" imposed tribute on the villages (according to our racketeering), were engaged in robbery, and also periodically tried to seize or rob someone else's territory and protect their own. Actually, this is the meaning of the then "politics".
            For example, the "Sontsevskies" or "Tambovs" also traded in racketeering and robbery. And in order to be imbued with exemplary morals, you can get acquainted with the corresponding criminal chronicles. As a rule, humanitarian historians do not understand the mentality of the bandits and their motives for their actions and are inclined to invent different stories. Let me remind you that the bandits have a hierarchy, you need to be responsible for words and deeds, you cannot let go of grievances, the guilty are punished.
            You don't have to invent anything. Rurik was summoned for the same reason for which, for example, several gangs call the Georgian authority and "crown" him. Gangs resolve disputes through war, and in order to get away from this, they call on a respected person to resolve disputes, who acts as an arbitrator. Rurik was needed to end strife and resolve conflicts without war.
    2. Far B
      Far B 15 January 2021 05: 36
      +6
      "Is there life on Mars, is there life on Mars - science does not know this" (c) But the dust of the stars is differently better than three.
      But the conclusions of m-me E.A. Melnikova like
      The derivation of the name Rurik from the Pomor-Slavic word "rerig" ("falcon"), as well as the interpretation of the names Sineus and Truvor as the phrases "sine hus" and "tru varing" - "with their own house" and "faithful squad" - are incredible in linguistic considerations
      seem to be completely wrong precisely from a linguistic point of view, for this is not a change in phonemes associated with changes in the language, but a simple adaptation of unfamiliar names to the Russian ear of that time. Examples - darkness: the same names of the Pechenegs and Polovtsy in the Russified version do not sound very similar to the authentic ones. And that's okay.
      However, in any case, it is a dark matter, because it is old, and there are no real sources left.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 07: 18
        +4
        the same names of the Pechenegs and Polovtsians in the Russified version do not sound very similar to the authentic ones.
        It became interesting: someone is studying the phonetics of the Pechenezh and Polovtsian languages?
        1. Far B
          Far B 15 January 2021 07: 35
          +5
          I agree here, I went too far laughing But the thought, I hope, is clear. As an example: "Shchelkan (Cholkhan, Chol-khan, Shchelkan Dyudenevich, Shevkal) is a cousin of the Golden Horde Uzbek-khan." What is Chol-Khan for the Horde is for the Russian Shchelkan. Adaptation, nothing more.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 07: 49
            +6
            The idea is clear. On the other hand, what was the common language of the Horde?
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 10: 11
              +13
              and what was the common language of the Horde?

              Anton, if according to Samsonov - naturally, Russian, and nothing else. wink Sarcasm! drinks
              To the author - Mikhail, I bow. yes A very timely article, the message is correct - not to produce pseudo-history from the interpretation of similar words - that is, from verbiage.hi
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 15 January 2021 10: 38
                +8
                Notice what a marvelous statistics on the cons! Eck folk historians korezhit! laughing
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 10: 41
                  +9
                  Notice what a marvelous statistics on the cons! Eck folk historians korezhit!

                  I see, I see, my friend! Thank you again - the article was not published on "opinions", it would have happened there that it is scary to go in ... request All of us together would have learned a lot about ourselves ... laughing
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 10: 47
                    +6
                    Aha, Albert also encourages, Tatra calls! Voodoo sucks!
                    1. Fat
                      Fat 15 January 2021 11: 09
                      +7
                      hi Appreciated. smile I think Kabbalah is somehow closer to Albert.
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 09
                        +10
                        Quote: Thick
                        hi Appreciated. smile I think Kabbalah is somehow closer to Albert.

                        Kabbalah is practiced by some nationalists from the "Bund bastards" (c), as well as irresponsible Zionists who do not understand that houses built on lands bought by rich Jews will be rented to newcomers for rent and built at the expense of their own exploitation, thus cleaning up the weapons production to their own hands into personal property, and, accordingly, becoming exploiters. (Inspired by the complete works of V. I. Lenin)
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Aha, Albert also encourages, Tatra calls! Voodoo sucks!

                        Let's discuss in Valhalla after Ragnarok. From the Valkyries - my brunette and redhead. Yours are blonde and bald.
                        Py.Sy. But only the enemies of the communists believe in this. I'm talking about the Scandinavian origin of Rurik fellow
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 12: 22
                        +7
                        (Inspired by the complete works of V. I. Lenin)

                        I must say, it worked! laughing
                        Yours are blonde and bald.

                        Did he ask, or is it your initiative? lol Shaw, and there are no others? belay Chestnut there, light brown, blue-green? lol Announce the entire list! drinks
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 31
                        +7
                        No, I chose it for him laughing Tore it from my heart. And not only wink
                        If you are talking about colored, then:
                        Ofrah Wimphrey with wings;
                        Vanessa Mae skiing;
                        Barbra Streisand in a mortar;
                        Sarah Jessica Parker at the Empire State Building;
                        Neomi Campbell on the flour oligarch. fellow
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 12: 38
                        +7
                        If you are talking about colored

                        Salvador Dali is hysterical with envy ... laughing good
                      5. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 40
                        +6
                        I suspect that Kafka too laughing
                      6. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 12: 42
                        +6
                        I suspect that Kafka too

                        - Do you like Kafka?
                        - Konefno! Cool, cool!
                        yes
                      7. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 52
                        +8
                        - Girl, what is your name
                        - Mua? Bagbag
                        - Are you a moron?
                        - No, Fgantsuzhenka request
            2. Fat
              Fat 15 January 2021 12: 55
              +7
              hi wassat Bald is not necessary! But the Valkyrie shaved bald is the very thing! yes drinks
            3. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 56
              +4
              Nalyso - bald? Or under Ilyich? laughing drinks
            4. Fat
              Fat 15 January 2021 13: 06
              +5
              Quite - completely shaved, that is, everywhere ... drinks laughing What plastic, texture fellow
            5. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 15 January 2021 13: 09
              +4
              Got it. Roxeta's shaved soloist in her teens drinks
            6. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 13: 15
              +4
              Got it. Roxeta's shaved soloist in her teens

              You still remember the group "Vice Police" from the dashing 90s - two shaved mamzels. laughing However, monsignors, you are delicate connoisseurs! drinks
            7. Fat
              Fat 15 January 2021 13: 17
              +6
              Well, yes ... "sunk into the soul and thus caused evil" (c) drinks
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 15 January 2021 13: 19
      +6
      Yours are blonde and bald.
      "And Herzen will always be lousy, then he will steal something" (C) crying
    4. Korsar4
      Korsar4 15 January 2021 13: 35
      +5
      Has the current family already approved the brunette in Valhalla?
    5. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 January 2021 13: 52
      +7
      They are Greeks. They said - if only not a Turkish woman am
    6. Korsar4
      Korsar4 15 January 2021 16: 19
      +3
      Valhalla with Turkish women is convincing.
    7. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 January 2021 17: 39
      +2
      Even more convincing with a Jew laughing
    8. Korsar4
      Korsar4 15 January 2021 18: 13
      +3
      Everyone has their own Promised Land. But it is possible that they can overlap.
    9. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 January 2021 19: 32
      +3
      Valhalla and the Kingdom of Heaven? ))
    10. Korsar4
      Korsar4 15 January 2021 22: 20
      +3
      Yes. Who knows for sure - how it works there?
    11. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 January 2021 23: 30
      +3
      Surely nobody laughing
  • Engineer
    Engineer 15 January 2021 12: 04
    +5
    Türkic in the Kipchak variant by al-Omari (14th century)
    What's before that?
    Most likely in the Great Steppe there was some kind of Türkic lingua franca, an analogue of the then European Latin. The heritage of the Turkic kaganate.
  • Trilobite Master
    15 January 2021 11: 46
    +7
    Quote: Dalny V
    But the conclusions of m-me E.A. Melnikova like
    The derivation of the name Rurik from the Pomor-Slavic word "rerig" ("falcon"), as well as the interpretation of the names Sineus and Truvor as the phrases "sine hus" and "tru varing" - "with their own house" and "faithful squad" - are incredible in linguistic considerations
    seem completely wrong precisely from a linguistic point of view

    Well, like a doctor of historical sciences, a candidate of philological sciences ... How much does she care about you in terms of historical linguistics ...
    Quote: Dalny V
    simple adaptation to the then Russian ear of unfamiliar names.

    What are you talking about? If about the name Hrerekr, then yes - an adaptation of the borrowed word. And if about Rarogs and reriks, then forgive me, what kind of adaptation can we talk about? Both languages ​​are Slavic, and in the case of Novgorod Slovenes, both are West Slavic. Slovenes separated from the Udrites, with whom they were one people a couple of centuries before Rurik, their languages ​​still differed from each other no more than Krasnodar from Vologda. So the example of the Polovtsians in this case is not suitable.
    And explain - why do you think that you understand these issues better than Melnikova? Is it just because you think so? smile
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 15 January 2021 12: 18
      +10
      Michael, good article.
      But please don't call Apollo Kuzmin an authoritative researcher. He always wrote pseudo-scientific goo. A kind of mainstream Gumilyov, but at minimum salaries (in terms of talent)
      The article suggests the inclusion of comments by Bobrov and Nikolaev to the Tale of Bygone Years of the 2012 edition in full
      The consonance of the Polabian-Obodritian * rorög, * ræreg with the name of the semi-legendary Russian prince Rurik has caused and is causing endless pseudo-scientific speculations. It should be noted that the resettlement of the Polabian-Oder Slavs to the territory of Russia is not attested, and in Russian the name of the immigrant prince (if he was encouraged or a Rugenian) would have the form
      * Ryareg or * Raryug.
      1. Trilobite Master
        15 January 2021 13: 12
        +7
        Thank you, Denis.
        I called Kuzmin "authoritative" because in certain circles he is authoritative. For me personally, both his scientific and socio-political positions are completely alien and for me personally he is not an authority. smile
    2. Far B
      Far B 16 January 2021 02: 46
      +1
      Well, like a doctor of historical sciences, candidate of philological
      So what? The quote you quoted is nothing more than a version of it. I guess with what it is version, she herself will not argue. And you, for some reason, are arguing. Interesting.
      if about Rarogs and reriks, then I'm sorry, what kind of adaptation can we talk about? Both languages ​​are Slavic, and in the case of Novgorod Slovenes, both are West Slavic
      Well, you fucking give! (c) Nikolay - Mykola; Afanasy - Opanas; Elena - Olena. Yes, there are a lot of such examples. By the way, both languages ​​are East Slavic (some believe that Ukrainian is generally a dialect of Russian).
      Slovenes separated from the cheerleaders, with whom they were one people a couple of centuries before Rurik, their languages ​​still differed from each other no more than Krasnodar from Vologda
      Certainly not a fact. Having divided, they had to go through the lands of the Yatvingians, Prussians and other Baltic evil spirits, naturally assimilating some of the linguistic features of these. By the way, the Krasnodar surzhik differs very much from the Vologda okanya. laughing I remember, as a preschool child, listening to attendants gossiping at the gate on the bench, I did not understand half laughing
      Is it just because you think so?
      Yeah. I, you know, in existence, love to think (hello to Descartes), compare and try to analyze. I don't think this is a mortal sin. As well as expressing your point of view in discussions on VO. Even if this point of view is different from the point of view
      Doctor of Historical Sciences, Candidate of Philology
  • bad
    bad 15 January 2021 12: 37
    +13
    Quote: Dalny V
    Examples - darkness: the same names of the Pechenegs and Polovtsy in the Russified version do not sound very similar to the authentic ones

    Right. All the familiar Tatars call themselves familiar names: Surkhai - Sergey, Mansur - Mikhail, Enver - Andrey, etc.
  • Revolver
    Revolver 15 January 2021 05: 59
    +4
    And I read this version somewhere:
    The Novgorodians called on the Viking Rurik and his squad not to reign, but as a mercenary. Novgorod was a rich merchant city, they were excellent merchants, and the warriors were not very good, but they could afford a hired army. Rurik fulfilled his service, and as it came to payment, he suddenly came up with the idea that his squad was the only organized armed force for several transitions around, and the entire Novgorod treasury is much more powerful than a mercenary's pay. Well, he suggested that the Novgorod Veche democratically vote for his candidacy for the post President Prince, and as an argument in support of his candidacy presented the swords and axes of the fighters. Veche considered the argumentation quite weighty, and did not even consider alternative options.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 January 2021 08: 11
      +5
      I will express
      Quote: Nagan
      And I read this version somewhere:
      The Novgorodians called on the Viking Rurik and his squad not to reign, but as a mercenary. Novgorod was a rich city,

      Everything is fine, only if you believe the archaeological dating and the tale of bygone years, at the time of the call of Rurik, Novgorod did not exist yet.
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 15 January 2021 08: 29
        +4
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        at the time of the call of Rurik, Novgorod was not yet
        Well, well, if not Novgorod, then who then, according to the legend, sent him that very message "Our land is great and abundant, but there is no order in it ..."?
        Quote: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calling_varyags

        According to the Novgorod First Chronicle:
        Going across the sea to the Varyag and rkosha: “Our land is great and abundant, but we have nѣtu attire; so go to us to reign and rule over us. " I got out of my third brother from my generation, and I belted a lot with me and I will forego, and I came to Novgorod. And with the elders in Novgorod, bѣ his name is Rurik; and other sѣde on Bѣlѣozerине, Sineus; and the third in Izborsk, his name is Truvor. And from tѣkh Varyag, found tѣkh, nicknamed Rus
        Although in the same place, as a version, it is said that Rurik began to reign in Ladoga. In general, there is no single canonical version, but most agree that there was such a Varangian Rurik.
        1. Vlad world
          Vlad world 15 January 2021 09: 28
          +5
          Yes, these fans of the Scandinavians. From the beginning they write - There is no order. And then they quote where it is written - There is no outfit. And nothing!!!! Two completely different words lead-having different meanings.
          In fact, they called the Son-in-law to the throne, and many years after the death of the men of the ruling clan, the Son-in-law, Godunov, was also called. Eligibility however.
          For information - during the excavation of Novgorod, only 15 (fifteen) purely Scandinavian things were found. Against the backdrop of thousands of Arab and others.
          1. Revolver
            Revolver 15 January 2021 10: 13
            +6
            Quote: Vlad-world
            From the beginning they write - There is no order. And then they quote where it is written
            Do not be lazy, read the article to which I gave the link above. There, in particular, it is written that the word "outfit" in that Old Church Slavonic meant "order". Although in theory, and so it is clear that the words are of the same root.
            1. Vlad world
              Vlad world 16 January 2021 10: 26
              +3
              Well, yes, one-root and have the same meaning for you.
              Yes, no words
              Example - House and Brownie. Single-root words and according to yours should have the same meaning. But in fact - as yours.
          2. Trilobite Master
            15 January 2021 11: 51
            +9
            Quote: Vlad-world
            For information - during the excavation of Novgorod, only 15 (fifteen) purely Scandinavian things were found. Against the backdrop of thousands of Arab and others.

            Nonsense. Where did you get this from? Where do they write or say such nonsense, I wonder?
            Please, share the sources of your sacred knowledge.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 15 January 2021 13: 05
              +5
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Nonsense. Where did you get this from? Where do they write or say such nonsense, I wonder?

              He's on the bedside table, you see, stood in an outfit ... crying
            2. Vlad world
              Vlad world 16 January 2021 09: 59
              +2
              And why is it just nonsense. Does not match your point of view.
              A collection of articles devoted to various issues in history. I bought it several years ago. I don't remember exactly -Russia and relations with Europe. I will try to find time.
              By the way, among these 15 things, 3 pieces are dice.
          3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 January 2021 17: 49
            +2
            Quote: Vlad-world
            Yes, these fans of the Scandinavians. From the beginning they write - There is no order. And then they quote where it is written - There is no outfit. And nothing!!!!

            Dear Vladimir, the question of "order" and "dress" in the Tale was examined by Shakhmatov, the century before last.
            So they haven’t come up with a bedside table yet, so the outfit is the order in Old Slavonic and in Old Russian languages.
            1. Vlad world
              Vlad world 16 January 2021 10: 07
              +1
              Yes of course. And the fact that in some chronicles it is written - there is no dressing-up is not important for you.
              Yes, and yes, the Dresser (from the outfit) and the Orderly, you will have the same thing.
              Yes, and in Old Russian Languages ​​- a beautiful pearl showing "knowledge" of history. Actually, you need to write Church Slavonic.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 16 January 2021 15: 31
                -1
                Quote: Vlad-world
                Yes of course. And the fact that in some chronicles it is written - there is no dressing-up is not important for you.

                This is how we live the Russian language without knowing!
                Does the root word “row” confuse you?
                Order, outfit, projectile, even a shopping mall presuppose the systematization of tangible and intangible objects!
                1. Vlad world
                  Vlad world 16 January 2021 16: 07
                  0
                  Yes, and we live "systematizing" words that have different meanings in one row - a trading row, a shell, an outfit, an order. In your opinion, they mean the same meaning.
                  Let's add - House and Brownie. They are also one-root and, in your opinion, have one meaning. But actually how.
      2. Illanatol
        Illanatol 15 January 2021 09: 47
        +7
        Novgorod means "new city".
        If there is a new city, then there must be an old city, right?
        Where is he?
        Chronicles are not the ultimate truth. Propaganda and PR are not an invention of our time

        "Who will let the naked truth into a decent society?" Jerzy Lec.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 15 January 2021 11: 24
          +9
          Quote: Illanatol
          Novgorod means "new city".
          If there is a new city, then there must be an old city, right?
          Where is he?

          For the formation of a new city, the presence of the old is not a prerequisite. For example, there was an empty space and a city was built on it, and this city is definitely new. smile
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol 15 January 2021 13: 53
            +1
            Then he is just a "city". "Old", "new" - the categories are comparative, you can only compare the same. Is the city (fortress originally) like a wasteland?
            Our ancestors were not illiterate.
        2. Engineer
          Engineer 15 January 2021 12: 20
          +5
          Staraya Ladoga is a candidate for the "old" city near Novgorod. Indisputable, of course, but nonetheless.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 13: 24
            +4
            Staraya Ladoga is a candidate for the "old" city near Novgorod. Indisputable, of course, but nonetheless.

            I would venture to agree with you, Denis.
          2. Illanatol
            Illanatol 15 January 2021 13: 58
            +3
            Then it would be more logical to call the new city "New Ladoga". But they did not name it.
            By the way, who founded Staraya Ladoga? Visiting Normans too?
            That they got into the habit of founding cities in our country, when there were practically no cities in their Scandinavia, so, some villages (the largest settlement - no more than 1 thousand inhabitants).
            Not patriots, however ...
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 15 January 2021 14: 05
              +4
              You lived in that era to say which is "more logical"?
              Pottery of the oldest layers of Ladoga, attention, Finno-Ugric
              Read about Hedeby and Birka. Some villages
              You are illiterate, but that's not bad.
              You are aggressively illiterate and pretentious.
            2. Revolver
              Revolver 16 January 2021 04: 23
              +1
              Quote: Illanatol
              By the way, who founded Staraya Ladoga? Visiting Normans too?
              That they got into the habit of founding cities in our country, when there were practically no cities in their Scandinavia, so, some villages (the largest settlement - no more than 1 thousand inhabitants).
              Not patriots, however ...

              Looks like it was not a lot in their Norway and Greenland was with timber, and then they ran into Russia, lo and behold, centuries-old forests, never seen an ax. And the Vikings didn’t part with axes even in their sleep, well, they put the axes into action, axes cut wood no worse than heads. Well, they cut down the cities.
              lol
        3. andrew42
          andrew42 15 January 2021 14: 42
          +1
          So there is the Old Town! Oldenburg, where "everything up to magma is Slavic", as German archaeologists complain.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 15 January 2021 15: 01
            0
            Saxon Oldenburg? Where have you dug up such heresy that there are all Slavic antiquities?
            Do you even realize that the Western Slavs lived east of the Saxons?
            1. andrew42
              andrew42 18 January 2021 12: 54
              0
              To be clear, this is not about the Oldenburg Castle, which is in the western German lands. Oldenburg is a borough in Mecklenburg, Pomerania. Immediately nearby are Oldenburg Holz (Oldenurgsky forest), and around settlements with such "German" names as Strellin, Radlov, Tsarnekov, Shmatzin, Shlatkov, Gross Yazedov, Gribov and so on. Interestingly, Google does not show the hapless "East" Oldenburg on its maps. And besides, a little to the south there is a lake with the well-known "archaeological" name Tollensee - and there is a more accurate ethnonym called Burg Stargrad, surrounded by Gross-Nemerov, Teschendrof, Wustrow, although there are more German names there. And therefore, before trumping knowledge of geography, it is recommended to just take a map and look. everyone knows about the Duchy of Oldenburg. But it would be strange if the Germans were interested in promoting the heritage of Pomerania, where all the Slavic bones of "impious pagans" were wiped off the face of the earth by the "pious" servants of the Pope.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 18 January 2021 13: 05
                0
                If in Mecklenburg, then it's understandable.
                But it would be strange if the Germans were interested in promoting the heritage of Pomerania, where all the Slavic bones of "wicked pagans

                However, the Germans dig and publish there. Unfortunately, almost everything is in German.
                1. andrew42
                  andrew42 18 January 2021 13: 27
                  0
                  Surely! German! Just like hundreds of Iranian dishes in the Komyak pamy in Perm sanctuaries. It's strange how our "academicians" have not yet established that Parma was owned by the Sassanids. And purely Slavic names of dozens (!) Of settlements in Pomerania. - this is so, German self-indulgence. Is the owl on the globe cracked yet?
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 18 January 2021 14: 45
                    0
                    Nobody denies the Slavic element in early medieval Germany. The owl is safe.
      3. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 10: 17
        +9
        Everything is fine, only if you believe the archaeological dating and the tale of bygone years, at the time of the call of Rurik, Novgorod did not exist yet.

        Vlad, I am not very strong in archeology and in the "tale of bygone years", but didn't he originally come to Ladoga (now Staraya Ladoga)? what The Staraya Ladoga Museum has a lot of artifacts of the trade route - coins (including Arab ones) and other buns. yes
        By the way, in Novgorod there is a place of the original settlement, on the right bank of the Volkhov (the Kremlin was built later, and on the left bank), and closer to Lake Ilmen. It is called the Rurik settlement. drinks Enlighten me if I'm wrong!
        EMNIP, Gumilev wrote that there was opposition to the vocation of Rurik, headed by a certain Vadim the Brave ... what
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 15 January 2021 10: 29
          +5
          Gumilyov is another authority in this area.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 10: 33
            +7
            Gumilyov is another authority in this area.

            I don't think he was making it up. You can watch The Tale. I'm just too lazy. request
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 15 January 2021 11: 48
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Gumilyov is another authority in this area.

            As in all others lol
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 15 January 2021 11: 53
              +5
              Why not? A good specialist in the Huns.
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 11
                +4
                It's hard for me to judge by the Huns. But ethnogenesis with passionarity is already trash
                1. andrew42
                  andrew42 15 January 2021 14: 45
                  +3
                  Ethnogenesis with passionarity is just a derivative of a function and the function itself. Gumilyov did not disclose the sources of passionarity, although he tried to hint.
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 15 January 2021 15: 09
                    +3
                    In my opinion - a science fiction writer from history. Which, in principle, is no longer bad. ))
              2. sevryuk
                sevryuk 15 January 2021 13: 42
                +2
                In fact, according to the Xiongnu, they lived 300 years before the Huns.
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 03
          +7
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          By the way, in Novgorod there is a place of the original settlement, on the right bank of the Volkhov (the Kremlin was built later, and on the left bank), and closer to Lake Ilmen. It is called the Rurik settlement.

          Good afternoon Nikolai, no archaeological layers have been found in Novgorod before the XNUMXth century. As for Rurikov Gorodishche, according to I.I. Eremeev, who has been conducting excavations there in recent years, there was a settlement of the early Iron Age in the VI-VIII centuries on the Rurik settlement - a hill-type town, fortified with stepped scarps (rather primitive fortifications). In the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries the town fell into desolation and its central part was opened up. In the IX century. there is another “rise” of the settlement: a powerful rampart and fortifications are being built, apparently, this is due to the appearance of the Scandinavians there.
          Information about Vadim the Brave is very dubious (not earlier than the XNUMXth century), there is no such information in earlier annals, therefore many historians quite reasonably doubt their reliability. hi
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 09
            +6
            In the IX century. there is another "takeoff" of the settlement: a powerful rampart and fortifications are being built, apparently, this is due to the appearance of the Scandinavians there.

            I didn't get to the Rurik settlement. But it is on the side that later became commercial. And closer to Ilmen. Why? And why was the Detinets built on the other side?
            Information about Vadim the Brave is very doubtful (not earlier than the XNUMXth century)

            That is, it is already indicated in the subsequent Novgorod chronicles?
            Sergey - I bow! By the way, let me tell you - the topic is not only for Mikhail, but also for Eduard! drinks
            1. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 13
              +7
              Quote: Pane Kohanku
              That is, it is already indicated in the subsequent Novgorod chronicles?

              In the Nikon Chronicle of the XNUMXth century and in the so-called "Yokimovskaya Chronicle", which Tatishchev refers to, but which no one else has seen, there is only a free retelling of Tatishchev himself - that is still a historical source in terms of reliability. hi
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 19
                +7
                but which nobody has seen except him

                Yeah, the Book of Veles or the Book of Mormon - insert the right one. wink
                By the way, in the village of Gruzino, on the Volkhov (below Novgorod, above Kirishi), there is a legend that Andrew the First-Called reached him and installed a cross there. yes Checkmate and checkmate of the official history, and Vashchenko and the Trilobite Master are drunk sobbing in unison on the sidelines! laughing My photo, August 2018. drinks
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 23
                  +6
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  then on Volkhov (below Novgorod, above Kirishi), there is a legend that Andrew the First-Called reached him, and installed a cross there

                  As far as I remember, Andrew the First-Called was generally so good in Russia ... drinks
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 26
                    +7
                    As far as I remember, Andrew the First-Called was generally so good in Russia ...

                    The guides in Feodosia will assure you that they have visited them. But, you see ... I went further north! request
                    1. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 30
                      +6
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      The guides in Feodosia will assure you that they have visited them.

                      The stories of the guides are generally an "exceptional historical source", even at one time I wanted to record these unique stories, but mother is too lazy, but there could already be a good collection now. Various stories about love and turning into stone are especially good: "Look at this rock, you see the head, eyebrows, eyes, etc." hi
                    2. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 35
                      +6
                      Various stories about love and turning to stone are especially good

                      The main character of the Nart epic (the epic of the peoples of the North Caucasus) - Soslan or Sosruko, was born in the opposite way ... From a stone, but out of love. drinks In general, the stories are different! good
                    3. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 38
                      +5
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      In general, the stories are different!

                      But I always had the feeling that the guides come up with them on the go according to pre-prepared cliches, such aedy, Tatishchev's heirs. drinks
                    4. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 51
                      +6
                      But I always had the feeling that the guides come up with them on the go according to pre-prepared cliches, such aedy, Tatishchev's heirs.

                      In August we rode a motor ship along Velikaya in Pskov. Most of the excursion was a retelling of non-historical legends. "It didn't work." By the way, there is not much to look at either - there are garages on one side, Buratinsky settlement on the other.
                      About the stories. Digress from the topic of the article. Do you remember our conversation for whether the tomb of Paul was opened or not? We found information that we did not open. drinks Now I am reading a book:

                      The value of the book is not that the author presents it as some kind of documentary detective story. And the fact that he gives numerous references to memories. This is - yes, valuable. good But in one place he still repeated the widespread legend that the Bolsheviks opened the grave of Pal Petrovich ...
                      That is, the historian is the historian of strife, as well as the information he cites ... drinks
                    5. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 58
                      +3
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      Remember our conversation for whether or not Paul's tomb was opened? We found information that we did not open.

                      And it would be interesting to see the results of the autopsy, of course, it would be even more interesting with Alexander I hi
                    6. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 12: 07
                      +4
                      with Alexander I it would be even more interesting

                      That's for sure! Or with Fyodor Kuzmich! But only Alexander III of the emperors was opened - to confirm the analysis of the remains of Nicholas II.
                    7. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 15 January 2021 12: 15
                      +3
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      But only Alexander III of the emperors was opened to confirm the analysis of the remains of Nicholas II.

                      Confirmed? I just don't know
                    8. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 12: 17
                      +5
                      Confirmed? I just don't know

                      I was also weak. But probably yes. what
              2. Fat
                Fat 15 January 2021 12: 38
                +3
                hi Found 53 books by Oleg Ivanov. what You need a middle name for clarity, so as not to wander through reference books, political science, astrology and fantasy (Oleg Eduardovich Ivanov, for example) I also want to read, but every time it is not very good to check whether the author is the same ...
              3. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 12: 40
                +3
                He O.A. Ivanov. It's probably easier to Google the book. drinks
              4. Fat
                Fat 15 January 2021 12: 59
                +2
                Duc googled! I found this, I will read it. There is more about the history of Moscow and other things that seemed interesting. Okay, I can handle it myself. drinks
              5. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 13: 07
                +4
                Duc googled! I found this, I will read it.

                Honestly interesting. But here for me the main thing is not that Ivanov offers his detective story of the development of events in Ropsha. And the fact that he takes a large layer of evidence - from the youth of Patras and his wife, to the reburial of the body of papa Pavel. lol Just the same conclusions Ivanov can be omitted, but the evidence, memoirs - yes, you need to read. good
  • Engineer
    Engineer 15 January 2021 12: 23
    +4
    Gumilev wrote that there was opposition to the vocation of Rurik, headed by a certain Vadim the Brave.

    This is from the later Nikon Chronicle and Tatishchev (relied on the Joachim Chronicle, how accurately it is not clear)
  • Trilobite Master
    15 January 2021 12: 27
    +11
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    didn't he originally come to Ladoga (now Staraya Ladoga)?

    Events can be reconstructed as follows (one of the versions).
    Shortly before the arrival of Rurik in Ladoga and Povolkhovye, this territory was already relatively densely populated by a mixed Slavic-Finno-Scandinavian population. Next to modern Ladoga, on the other bank of the Volkhov, there was another settlement, which is now called by archaeologists Lyubshansky, but what it was called in those days is unknown. According to one version, Ladoga could play the role of a large trade and craft center, with a Scandinavian, mainly population, while Lyubsha was an older Slavic tribal center.
    In the second half of the IX century. Lyubsha burns out and is no longer restored. Who burned it - Rurik or those Scandinavians whom the Slovene "set in motion" before summoning Rurik, or it burned down during a period when the Slovenes themselves quarreled among themselves is not yet clear.
    The main threat to Ladoga was from the sea, from where anyone could come at any moment. As an outpost in front of the Volkhov rapids, it was a wonderful place, but still too vulnerable. The source of the Volkhov was protected, including by the rapids, through which sea vessels could not pass. This is where Rurik decided to move all his guts, leaving only a military barrier in Ladoga. In the event of an invasion from the side of the sea, to force the rapids, having in the rear uncontested Ladoga, is like death, so willy-nilly it is necessary to besiege the fortress, but while the siege lasts, then, behold, something will come up in Novgorod.
    Why did not such a center as Ladoga emerge immediately on the site of Novgorod? It is inconvenient to trade. Again, Ladoga grew up where the farthest ships could climb. Then it was necessary to already overload into punt. While all this was developing spontaneously, it was more convenient to stand just below the rapids. But when they got so rich that it became difficult to fight off those who wanted to partake of this wealth, they had to sacrifice some of the comforts of trade for the sake of safety.
    As for Novgorod, this place was not empty; there were several ancient settlements on the territory of modern Novgorod. A convenient island was chosen for the new town, bargaining was organized on the right bank of the Volkhov, and then, when they finally got stronger and settled down, they began to build up the left bank of the Volkhov.
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 14
      +2
      As for Novgorod, this place was not empty; there were several ancient settlements on the territory of modern Novgorod. A convenient island was chosen for the new town, bargaining was organized on the right bank of the Volkhov, and then, when they finally got stronger and settled down, they began to build up the left bank of the Volkhov.

      Mikhail, I wish you in the following articles to consider the possibility of a trade route to Novgorod along the Luga. The meadows were respected by the river. Olearius in the 17th century even wrote: "rich in salmon" ...
      And the trade route from Pskov, as far as I understand, went through Lake Peipsi to Narva, and from there to the bay? drinks
      1. Trilobite Master
        15 January 2021 15: 05
        +4
        The meadow can be considered only as a way of settling the Slavs towards the present Izhora Upland - to the Vody area.
        It is interesting that along the river itself there are villages with purely Slavic names, but as soon as you step back into the forests, Finnish ones start right away. As a trade route, Luga does not pull. Yes, there are also rapids in the area of ​​present-day Sabsk ...
        From Pskov it is a very convenient walking path to Novgorod along the "west-east" line, while the Velikaya river itself can only serve as a transshipment artery to the Dvina, which, in general, is not very convenient, especially since the Velikaya itself is much more replete with rapids and other difficult-to-pass areas - inconvenient for navigation. Moreover, there are Narva waterfalls on the Narova, so it’s not easy to get to Pskov itself from the Baltic Sea ... Therefore, as a powerful shopping center, Pskov did not take place until they paved the way "mountain", that is, dry land to Novgorod.
    2. Connor MacLeod
      Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 17: 49
      +1
      And Novgorod was on fire?
      1. Trilobite Master
        15 January 2021 18: 02
        +3
        I don’t remember that period (IX-X centuries). In my opinion, no.
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 15 January 2021 19: 57
        +2
        Quote: Connor MacLeod
        And Novgorod was on fire?

        Burned of course and many times, the wooden city could not help but burn. Remember the baptism of Dobrynya with "fire and sword": as far as I remember there was a fire, what it was connected with - it is understandable only to assume. Once I saw an article on fires in Novgorod, it seems "Typology of fires in Novgorod 10-13 centuries" is called or something like that.
        1. Connor MacLeod
          Connor MacLeod 16 January 2021 00: 41
          0
          I'm more interested in the XNUMXth century.
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 16 January 2021 10: 32
            0
            In the XNUMXth century, Novgorod was not yet
            1. Connor MacLeod
              Connor MacLeod 16 January 2021 15: 59
              0
              Well Rurik's settlement. Was it burning?
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 08: 57
    +5
    Yes, no one called anyone. Vikings appeared on the territory of Northwest Russia in the 8th century. At this time, it was no man's land inhabited by small Finno-Ugric tribes. The Scandinavians were mainly interested in furs that they exchanged (well, or took, as it turned out) from local hunting tribes. Gradually they mastered the upper reaches of the Volga and established trade relations with the Volga Bulgaria. The main centers of the Scandinavians are Staraya Ladoga and Rostov. There were no Slavs in the Northwest at that time yet. Slavic settlements were located south and west of Pskov, Polotsk and Smolensk. Even further south was Kiev, in the 9th century it was under the Khazars. With Novgorod, it is not entirely clear, probably it was a kind of border area. According to archaeological data, in the 9th century in the area of ​​Novgorod and Ladoga, armed conflicts raged between the Scandinavians and the more numerous Slavs. With varied success. Then, in the 10th century, the expansion of the Scandinavians began. They began to move down the Dnieper, captured the Slavic cities, and then invaded the weakening Khazar Kaganate and captured Kiev. Probably the expansion of the Vikings was caused by the fact that as a result of the Arab conquests, the old trade routes between the West and the East were blocked, and alternative trade routes became relevant ...
    1. Illanatol
      Illanatol 15 January 2021 09: 42
      +4
      Fairy tales.
      For such events, a higher social organization is needed than the Scandinavians had. Savage tribes of the Suevi that paid tribute to other savages.
      To trade, you need to have a demanded product. And it was not stupid. There was nothing to offer the Arabs and Byzantines. The Scandinavians lived from hand to mouth, sometimes they even killed children, because they could not feed them. They also started whaling not because of a good life.
      So they sold themselves as mercenaries, risked skins for the gold of richer nations.
      The Varangians are not Scandinavians. The word is Slavic in origin, it means only "sailor".
      "Var" - sea, "yag (yog, south)" - mastery in something.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 09: 52
        +7
        Evono how! Was the Vendel period in Scandinavian history invented by the Masters of the West?
      2. Bar1
        Bar1 15 January 2021 10: 50
        +5
        Quote: Illanatol
        Var "- the sea," yag (yog, south) "- mastery in something.

        where is it from?
        1. Illanatol
          Illanatol 15 January 2021 14: 07
          0
          "Var" is a common root for the Indo-European languages ​​and is present in Sanskrit.
          Have you heard about Babu Yaga? Why was she called that? Because she is a connoisseur of all sorts of female wisdom: witchcraft, sorcery and so on.
          What is the name of a hardened thief? Thief of the South.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 15 January 2021 17: 48
            +2
            Nnda, about the fact that a "thief" or a var is, something Indo-European, I do not know, but if you take the GDR historian Andrei Paul, he writes as follows.

            In other words, if the Old Russian "var-yagi" corresponded to the self-name of the encouraging war-ingi, then the latter should have been the designation of the inhabitants of the * War or * Wari region. Since the name Wari was known to the population of Wagria only until the beginning of the XNUMXth century, and it is not known whether its subsequent transition to waigri / wagiri was justified by changes in German or Slavic dialects, the borrowing of this form can be assumed before that time.
            Thus, a fairly clear picture is formed that, as none of the closest neighbors of the people who were encouraged by dynastic ties or trade relations knew this form of their name, all of them at the same time knew a certain "Varins" people who lived in the Baltic. or "Varangians". The only exceptions are the Germans, who knew both forms - varina and cheer, but from the end of the VIII century they used mainly the latter. The fact that the form "encouraged" was not at all reflected in toponymy, in contrast to a fairly noticeable layer of both Slavic and Germanic toponymy, going back to the forms "var" or "varin", indicates that in colloquial speech the form "varina "Continued to be used by the Germans as well," encouraged "became a more bookish," learned "term.


            Mentioned in the chronicles of Adam of Bremen and Helmold cities of Polabs, Linons, Cheers and Hizans (black) and "Varskaya" toponymy (white)
            This also includes the Bulgarian Varna.
          2. andrew42
            andrew42 18 January 2021 13: 21
            0
            If memory serves, Vara is also mentioned in the Avestan "Wendidad", where Vara is built as an "ark of salvation", although in Sanskrit the meaning is broader, bringing together all the meanings - "place of preservation."
      3. Connor MacLeod
        Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 11: 12
        +9
        Quote: Illanatol
        Fairy tales.

        The Scandinavian presence (from the 8th century in the North-West, and from the 10th in the South-East) is confirmed by archaeological data - burials containing weapons, amulets, objects with runic inscriptions, etc.

        Quote: Illanatol
        For such events, a higher social organization is needed than the Scandinavians had. Savage tribes of the Suevi that paid tribute to other savages.

        There is no need for a complex social hierarchy to engage in trade and robbery.

        Quote: Illanatol
        To trade, you need to have a demanded product. And he was not stupid. There was nothing to offer the Arabs and Byzantines.

        I have already mentioned fur as one of the reasons for the appearance of the Scandinavians in the North-West of Russia. In addition, it was possible to engage in transit trade.

        Quote: Illanatol
        The Scandinavians lived from hand to mouth, sometimes they even killed children, because they could not feed them. They also started whaling not because of a good life.

        I agree with this, life in Scandinavia was bad. This is one of the main reasons for their resettlement.

        Quote: Illanatol
        So they sold themselves as mercenaries, risked skins for the gold of richer nations.

        If you mean the Eastern Slavs, they could hardly be attributed to the rich, prosperous peoples at that time. Although they did have agriculture developed enough to feed a large population. The main problem was that they lived quite isolated. Despite the fact that they already had some rudiments of statehood, they objectively fell under the influence of their neighbors.

        Quote: Illanatol
        The Varangians are not Scandinavians. The word is Slavic in origin, it means only "sailor".
        "Var" - sea, "yag (yog, south)" - mastery in something.

        Well, this is already dolboslavie gone ...
        1. Illanatol
          Illanatol 15 January 2021 14: 34
          -1
          The only question is who these Scandinavians were .. Suddenly there were also Slavs, like the Prussians ..
          It is scary to think what conclusions the archaeologists of the future will draw when studying the "cultural layers" of our time. Smartphones, Mercedes, Chinese clothes ...

          Hierarchy is not needed, but organization is very even. There is no market without law, there is no law without organized power, without the state.
          A separate Jarl would not have pulled it, but the Yarl got along badly.
          Transit trade? The way from the Varangians to the Greeks? And why is it not functioning now? Here is the Danube in the early Middle Ages and is now used .. and the Dnieper?

          The Dnieper was not very suitable for Scandinavian drakkars. They could not be dragged over the rapids without damaging the keel. On Slavic punt boats, the goods were transported, rather, by the Slavs themselves.

          Fur could be found closer (to Byzantium). Taking into account the costs (range, the need to protect the goods, other costs), the profit will be too small.

          The most important commodity for the Greeks was grain. Even in ancient times, skolot sketes were bought from our ancestors in large quantities.

          If Kiev, for example, served to control the transport route, then the stationed garrison had to have, on a permanent basis, "a flotilla of high-speed vessels. Sitting in the saddle, it is difficult to cope with such a function. But the Russian warriors were, first of all, a horse army. they were customs officers, and, above all, protectors of peaceful farmers.
          Although the weapons of the Russians and Scandinavians were similar (which is not surprising), there were still differences. The Scandinavians did not betray the direct "Frankish" sword, the Russians willingly used curved blades (more convenient for a mounted warrior).
      4. Trilobite Master
        15 January 2021 12: 35
        +4
        Quote: Illanatol
        Fairy tales.

        Fairy tales are heard, first of all, in your performance. What you put on here is literally based on nothing other than your own understanding. We see what this approach to history leads to in the example of Samsonov, when he broadcasts about a super-ethnos.
        Quote: Illanatol
        To trade, you need to have a demanded product.

        We have already spoken about this a hundred times. Furs and slaves, later wax. In general, furs were an analogue of modern oil in those days - a commodity, without exaggeration, a strategic one.
        1. Connor MacLeod
          Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 13: 07
          +2
          Well, slaves are the X century, this is when the Vikings went south through the Slavic lands. I think there is more of a military component than an economic one. All this "trade" ended with the murder of Igor by the Drevlyans (aka Yngvar). Until the 10th century, the Arabs who met the Vikings on the Volga remember them mainly as fur traders.
        2. Illanatol
          Illanatol 15 January 2021 14: 42
          -1
          The most strategic commodity is bread. More essential for life. Slaves - it is better to take closer, more accustomed to the local climate, food, economic structure, less language and cultural barrier (easier to train and control)
          The furry animal was then found much further south, the climate would be more severe, there were more forests.

          In general, "overseas a heifer-half, but haul haul".
          1. Trilobite Master
            15 January 2021 15: 10
            +5
            Quote: Illanatol
            The most strategic commodity is bread.

            Everyone had their own bread. Until cities appeared, large cities that the districts could not feed, bread was not transported anywhere. You should read a few books before reasoning.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 15 January 2021 10: 32
      +4
      Vikings appeared on the territory of Northwest Russia in the 8th century.
      I would not be so categorical, colleague. hi
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 09
        +7
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Vikings appeared on the territory of Northwest Russia in the 8th century.
        I would not be so categorical, colleague.

        In Staraya Ladoga, the Slavic and Scandinavian layers are recorded almost simultaneously, now they even say that the Scandinavians appear there 30-50 years even earlier than the Slavs, although this issue is still debatable. hi
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 15 January 2021 11: 30
          +5
          As far as I know, all finds date from the first half of the 9th century.
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 46
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            As far as I know, all finds date from the first half of the 9th century.

            As far as I remember, the VIII century is there.
            1. Connor MacLeod
              Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 11: 53
              +2
              And what about Pskov, Polotsk, Smolensk? These are originally Slavic settlements, right? When did the Scandinavians appear there?
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 15 January 2021 12: 06
                +5
                Quote: Connor Macleod
                And what about Pskov, Polotsk, Smolensk? These are originally Slavic settlements, right? When did the Scandinavians appear there?

                I don’t know about Polotsk, I don’t remember exactly.
                Smolensk appears later, initially Gnezdovo - X century, there actually everything is represented as in Staraya Ladoga: Slavs, Scandinavians, Finno-Ugrians.
                Pskov needs to be refreshed, it is unlikely that there were Scandinavians: A. Valerov should be read, he was engaged in early Pskov.
                1. Connor MacLeod
                  Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 12: 27
                  +3
                  Quote: Mihaylov
                  I don’t know about Polotsk, I don’t remember exactly.

                  Yes, it would be interesting to know the details. As far as I remember, there are traces of fires of the XNUMXth century. Viking work most likely.

                  And in the XNUMXth century, Ladoga and Novgorod mostly burned. True, it is not clear who is who. I think all the same the Slavs of the Scandinavians.

                  Quote: Mihaylov
                  Smolensk appears later, initially Gnezdovo - X century, actually everything is represented there as in Staraya Ladoga: Slavs, Scandinavians, Finno-Ugric peoples.

                  I wonder in what order these layers are? And surely there was no Slavic settlement in Smolensk before the appearance of the Scandinavians?

                  Quote: Mihaylov
                  Pskov needs to be refreshed, it is unlikely that there were Scandinavians: A. Valerov should be read, he was engaged in early Pskov.

                  My theory is that the Krivichi had their own cities throughout the XNUMXth century, which stood independently of the Scandinavians. There is also the question of who terrorized whom ...
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 12: 38
                    +3
                    Quote: Connor Macleod
                    And surely there was no Slavic settlement in Smolensk before the appearance of the Scandinavians?

                    In Smolensk itself, archaeological layers can be traced not earlier than the XNUMXth century, then the sources refer to Smolensk in the XNUMXth century. apparently referring to Gnezdovo (at least according to archaeological sources).
                    My theory is that in the XNUMXth century the Krivichi had their own cities, which stood independently of the Scandinavians.

                    I would speak very carefully about cities in the XNUMXth century, I do not think that cities (in the sense of a city, not a fenced place) appear earlier than the XI century, or even the XI century.
                    And in the XNUMXth century, Ladoga and Novgorod mostly burned. True, it is not clear who is who. I think all the same the Slavs of the Scandinavians.

                    Who knows ... hi
                  2. Connor MacLeod
                    Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 12: 43
                    +1
                    Well, what about Novgorod? Who was there first? Scandinavians or Slavs? And in what century?
                  3. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 12: 47
                    +2
                    Quote: Connor Macleod
                    Well, what about Novgorod? Who was there first? Scandinavians or Slavs? And in what century?

                    In Novgorod, the earliest archaeological layers date back to the XNUMXth century, but the Slavs in this region, according to the latest archaeological data, appear quite early, apparently even in the XNUMXth century (II Eremeev), the Scandinavians are recorded at the Rurik settlement in the XNUMXth century.
                  4. Connor MacLeod
                    Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 13: 00
                    0
                    And Timerevo, Sarskoe from what century? There were no Slavs, right?
                  5. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 14: 23
                    +2
                    Quote: Connor Macleod
                    And Timerevo, Sarskoe from what century? There were no Slavs, right?

                    On these, in my opinion, everything is fixed: both the Slavs and the Scandinavians and the Finno-Ugrians (Meria), but I don't remember exactly, I need to read literature ...
                    The Sarskoye settlement of Gnezdovskoye reminds, there are many Scandinavian things found.
                  6. Connor MacLeod
                    Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 14: 28
                    +2
                    Yes, where did the Slavs come from, I can't understand? These are the Finno-Ugric territories. And all the place names are Finno-Ugric ...

                    And I also wanted to ask about Moore and Beloozero. Are there any archaeological finds or are these ancient cities known only from the annals?
                  7. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 14: 39
                    +2
                    Quote: Connor Macleod
                    Yes, where did the Slavs come from, I can't understand? These are the Finno-Ugric territories. And all the place names are Finno-Ugric ...

                    Actually, this entire territory from the Baltic to the Urals was inhabited by the Finno-Ugric peoples before the Slavs, and in modern Russian there are a lot of place names of Finno-Ugric origin, for example, Moscow ...
                    Murom - yes, undoubtedly a Finno-Ugric settlement (Muroma), the archeology there is interesting, the Slavs in the 10th century penetrate. I don't know about Beloozero. It is necessary to Ryabinina E.A. read, he was engaged in Slavic-Finno-Ugric relations and contacts.
                  8. Bar1
                    Bar1 15 January 2021 18: 25
                    +1
                    Quote: Mihaylov
                    Actually, this entire territory from the Baltic to the Urals was inhabited by the Finno-Ugric peoples before the Slavs, and in modern Russian there are a lot of place names of Finno-Ugric origin, for example, Moscow ...


                    why would they be Finnish? The fact that the ending in "va", Duc and in Russian words with such endings are available?
                    -Moscow
                    -Lithuania
                    -head
                    there are not Russian, but also not Finnish
                    -Khiva
                    -Tuva

                    In general, the word "Moscow" was not initially clear, what is it? What is the meaning of the word Moscow? This cannot be deciphered in any language. Hence the conclusion: most likely Moscow is a word of artificial origin.
                    -MOCCWA-i.e. it is like a pallindrome, i.e. something originally meaningless. This city had a different name, which means that all documents with "Moscow" were later revised.
                  9. SVD68
                    SVD68 15 January 2021 20: 05
                    0
                    Quote: Mihaylov
                    Actually, this entire territory from the Baltic to the Urals was inhabited by the Finno-Ugrians before the Slavs.

                    Actually, the ancestors of the Slavs and Balts lived on the Russian Plain a couple of thousand years before the arrival of the Finno-Ugric peoples here.
    3. andrew42
      andrew42 18 January 2021 13: 40
      0
      It's so funny to listen to our "academicians" about the "Scandinavian dominance" up to Gnezdovo. Their speculative concepts are terribly far from human life. I am most worried by this question: how did the "Scandinavian settlers" maintain their own identity for decades. There are several generations, whatever one may say, especially with that average life expectancy. Where are the Scandinavian wives, children? Did they come from Scandia? Completely Slavic slaves with broods of bastards? - Nonsense. In what language did the mothers from Gnezdovo sing lullabies to their children? The sagas were apparently chanted. However, the trilobite & Co. is not interested. It was like that, and that's it. Again, on the topic of Novgorod, how it was so unobtrusively discarded from the song the mention of the city of Slovensk on the river. Muddy, about Skif and Slaven "like a horde of flights", but about this, what is called "Russian in white" is written in a completely officially recognized source. We live comfortably! Slavophobia rules !. Soon we will reach the point that there were no Slavs about the incomprehensible Drevlyans and the Dulebs, - the border of the Scandinavians with the Finno-Ugrians, and basta. Handsome men, no words.
  • Trilobite Master
    15 January 2021 15: 11
    +3
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    As far as I know, all finds date from the first half of the 9th century.

    In old Ladoga, the oldest (of the investigated) house is dated 753. Made according to the Scandinavian model.
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 22 January 2021 14: 47
      0
      Is the sample of the house patented by a "citizen of Scandinavia"? Apparently there is a WIPO patent? - You are so fond of playing with the "evidence base"! On the log is carved "Hreik and Sigurd were here", and below "Kisa and Osia".
      1. Trilobite Master
        22 January 2021 15: 26
        0
        A sign at the entrance hung "Negroes and Slavs prohibited from entering." wassat
        Are you really that stupid or are you pretending? Do you think archaeologists are unable to distinguish a Scandinavian long house from a Slavic semi-dugout?
        No, you don't seem to be pretending from the rest of the comments. Well, look forward to further patents from WIPO or some other source, but only if it’s stupid not to think, try at least not to write them - this way you will look smarter while waiting.
        1. andrew42
          andrew42 22 January 2021 16: 09
          0
          I had no doubts about the sign. Everyone knows that the Slavs all over the world lived entirely in dug-out "beaver huts" (in the presence of a forest, which also had to be cut / burned for arable land), and a hut, five-walled, tower, mansions (there are other structures with a centuries-old history) - these are entirely Scandinavian concepts, well, or Turkic at worst.
          1. Trilobite Master
            22 January 2021 16: 14
            0
            Take a look at the archeological data to be sure at all. When huts appeared, when mansions, when mansions and in what they lived before. There is such an experimental historian Pavel Sapozhnikov, for example. I have no time to educate you.
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 11: 40
    +1
    And in Novgorod?
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 11: 17
    +3
    What do you specifically disagree with? With dates?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 15 January 2021 11: 25
      +6
      If I'm not mistaken, the first appearance of the Vikings in Europe dates back to 752.
      ... At this time, it was no man's land inhabited by small Finno-Ugric tribes.
      Accordingly, what for them these rogue?
      1. Connor MacLeod
        Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 11: 33
        +4
        Well, they were moving both East and West at the same time. Someone was robbed, someone traded with. Specifically, the Finno-Ugrians could get hold of furs.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 15 January 2021 11: 51
          +3
          And what for them that furs?
          1. Connor MacLeod
            Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 11: 53
            +2
            For sale.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 15 January 2021 11: 55
              +3
              Who to trade with? At home, you won't surprise anyone with that furs, and there are no other markets yet.
              1. Connor MacLeod
                Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 11: 59
                +3
                Western Europe. On the Volga there were Bulgars, later Arabs. By the way, it's not a fact that in Scandinavia itself there were a lot of fur-bearing animals, there could be something to shake off.
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 15 January 2021 12: 53
                +2
                For trade with Europe, the Scandinavians needed transshipment bases, enclaves, conditionally peaceful, inhabited by them, such as York in Northumbria, and they appeared only at the beginning of the 10th century.
              3. Connor MacLeod
                Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 13: 19
                +1
                You forgot Hedeby.
              4. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 15 January 2021 13: 33
                +3
                Hedeby is not an enclave on a foreign territory and it becomes a large trade center in the second half of the 9th century.
              5. Connor MacLeod
                Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 13: 40
                -1
                Why this enclave? The Anglo-Saxons and Franks themselves could get to Hedeby and buy everything.

                And at the same time, can you present your alternative version of what the Scandinavians were supposed to do in Eastern Europe?
              6. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 15 January 2021 13: 54
                +2
                Somehow I don’t remember that they were eager to get to the Normans. The first to reach Hedeby was Heinrich the Fowler and by no means with a trade mission.
                Why do you think that I have an alternative version?
              7. Connor MacLeod
                Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 14: 03
                0
                Okay, let's go on the other side - there are references in XNUMXth century Arabic sources about Scandinavian fur traders on the upper Volga. There is a PVL where it is said that Rurik took furs from local tribes. No matter how you look at the furs, this is the most valuable thing in those places. There was nothing else.
              8. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 15 January 2021 14: 11
                0
                So I'm not arguing! We only differ in dating and geography. And you must admit that this is still the 9th century, and not the 8th, as you positioned earlier.
              9. Connor MacLeod
                Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 14: 22
                0
                Oh well. Ladoga, Timerevo, Sarskoe, what dating do you have there?
              10. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 15 January 2021 14: 35
                +1
                Of all those mentioned only in Ladoga, the Scandinavian presence is celebrated in the 8th century.
              11. Connor MacLeod
                Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 14: 36
                +1
                And Timerevo and Sarskoe is the XNUMXth century right?
              12. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 15 January 2021 14: 42
                +1
                As far as I know, yes.
  • Trilobite Master
    15 January 2021 15: 18
    +4
    This is the uniqueness of the Scandinavian expansion to the east. One could come to Western Europe and just rob, which the Vikings actually did. There is no one to rob in the East, but trade gave a huge income, and in order to trade, you need to be friends, or at least not quarrel. I came, bought what I needed, left, made a profit. Arriving, robbing, leaving is not an option, because you can't take a lot at a time, and you can no longer count on trade.
    Fur in Scandinavia itself was worse and there was less of it.
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 18: 01
    +1
    They really lived relatively peacefully with the Finno-Ugrians. It was easier to trade for furs than to chase these tribes through the forests. I'm not sure about the Slavs. Ladoga, Novgorod - judging by the fires in these places in the XNUMXth century, a particular mochilovo was going on. To understand who attacked whom and when?
  • Trilobite Master
    15 January 2021 18: 24
    +3
    Actually, at first they had nothing to share, while each was doing his own thing. Some hunted, others arable, others traded and fought, mostly with each other for the right to trade.
    Conflicts began only when cities such as Ladoga were formed, in which there was already something to take, but by that time, various ethnic groups (Slavic, Scandinavian and Finno-Ugric), initially alien to each other, had already managed to get closer.
    So, I think, the Scandinavians fought with each other, first of all, and then all together against the new finds - the second wave of Scandinavian expansion that came with the beginning of the Viking Age. This moment is reflected in our chronicles as "the vocation of the Varangians".
    It seems to me so.
    Simply put, they lived mostly peacefully (Scandinavians, Slavs, Finns), sometimes they quarreled, but here new Scandinavians come, only more numerous and angrier, they say, we are here for you. Well, to us, so to us, just behave yourself ... And they started indecently. Well, they were given a boost. Only everyone understood that the guys would return, not the same, but different. So we decided not to wait for the "offended" to come to investigate, but called an authoritative person.
    In this regard, Rorik's candidacy seems to be quite suitable. He is well acquainted with the Slavs - his possessions in Jutland were just next to the encouraged ones, he was like a true skjoldung, he disliked Swedes and Norwegians (Inglings) ... He was a normal candidate in all respects.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 35
    +7
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    If I'm not mistaken, the first appearance of the Vikings in Europe dates back to 752.
    ... At this time, it was no man's land inhabited by small Finno-Ugric tribes.
    Accordingly, what for them these rogue?

    In the early 2000s, on about. An interesting burial of 33 bodies of warriors with weapons in a boat and a separate small boat with 4 bodies without weapons (apparently servants or slaves) was discovered in Saarem. Dating 730-740th years.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 15 January 2021 11: 49
      +5
      Sergey, from Saarema to Staraya Ladoga 300 km in a straight line and 500 km on the water.
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 15 January 2021 11: 55
        +4
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        from Saarema to Staraya Ladoga 300 km in a straight line and 500 km by water.

        This is understandable, we are talking about the fact that in the first half of the VIII century, before the "official start" of the Viking Age, we see that they are already fully represented in this region in their traditional, so to speak, form: in drakars, with weapons and with certain familiar ones, so to speak. our goals (conditionally, of course).
        It is not clear who they are - "that": their own or local. Most likely their own, since they are buried by all standards, the locals would hardly have bothered with this. hi
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 15 January 2021 12: 24
          +4
          Undoubtedly presented, for the population explosion, as the cause of Viking, is not a one-time phenomenon. The only thing that remains a mystery to me: throughout Europe, the Dark Ages, as a consequence of the late antique MLP, and in Scandinavia - the flourishing of the Wendel culture ... recourse
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 15 January 2021 12: 44
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            The only thing that remains a mystery to me: throughout Europe, the Dark Ages, as a consequence of the late antique MLP, and in Scandinavia - the flourishing of the Wendel culture ...

            Well, they were sitting there on the sidelines, everything happened with a delay for a couple of centuries, then the Estonians and Finns inherited this tradition from them. laughing
          2. Trilobite Master
            15 January 2021 17: 46
            +2
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            throughout Europe, the dark ages, as a consequence of the late antique MLP, and in Scandinavia - the flourishing of the Wendel culture ...

            I think the point here is that waves of Eastern immigrants did not get to Scandinavia, which disturbed Eastern, Central and even Western Europe. A sort of "reserve" turned out, cooked, mostly in its own juice. While everything in Europe was bubbling and bubbling, mixing, mixing, dividing and reuniting, these lived more or less peacefully across the sea, sometimes having fun "wall to wall", arranging "epic battles" on a scale comparable to the fights of modern football fans.
          3. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 17: 56
            +1
            Probably. But what about the general cold snap? In theory, they should freeze out like their descendants in Greenland.
          4. Trilobite Master
            15 January 2021 18: 05
            +1
            Survived somehow. request
            Probably not that cold. The sea was the helm. And there weren't many of them, in fact. And when there were many, the Viking era began ...
          5. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 18: 11
            +1
            The sea ... Well, in general, if we assume that the Gulf Stream made a "feint with the ears" and headed towards the western coast of Scandinavia, the isotherms could have changed a lot.
          6. Trilobite Master
            15 January 2021 18: 27
            +2
            The sea doesn't have to be warm. You can also fish on an industrial scale under the ice. To some extent, even more convenient. The most important thing is that there were really few of them in the Vendel era.
          7. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 18: 49
            +1
            Good. I’ll ask an idiotic question. What about Jutland horse breeding?
          8. Trilobite Master
            15 January 2021 19: 07
            +1
            In the Wendel era? No, in my opinion, horse breeding was not yet developed there at that time. It seems to me that this process started only with the arrival of the climatic optimum ...
          9. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 19: 22
            +1
            Finds at Wendel and Valsgerd show that Uppland was at that time an important territory, corresponding to the Kingdom of the Svei described in the sagas. Part of the kingdom's wealth was gained through control over mining and iron production. The Sweysk kings had troops armed with expensive weapons, including cavalry. Archaeologists have discovered the tombs of equestrian warriors belonging to that time, in which stirrups, ornaments for saddles made of gilded bronze with inlaid work were placed.

            Horses are mentioned in the writings of the XNUMXth century Gothic historian Jordan, who wrote that the Svei had the best horses, except for the Turing. These warriors are also mentioned in later sagas, where King Adils is always described as having fought on horseback (against both Oneela and Hrolf Kraka). Snorri Sturluson wrote that Adils had the best horses of his time.

            This is of course Wikipedia. But I can dig deeper. Or do you consider legends about the Gothic past?
          10. Trilobite Master
            15 January 2021 19: 53
            +2
            By no means, I simply did not pay attention to this particular aspect.
            You can try to figure it out, but for me there was still a "Jutland breed" in relation to the Scandinavians, and I considered it to be related only to the Viking era and later. Theoretically, the peasants kept horses in more severe conditions, but it was hardly possible to engage in horse breeding in Northern Europe outside of the climatic optimum ...
            And so ...
            In general, harsh, shaggy strong and hardy horses (Jutland horses) could be raised precisely by the peasants and precisely in the harsh northern places - for plowing and, in general, as a draft force, in an amount necessary and sufficient for running their economy. So whether it makes sense to talk about organized, and not spontaneous horse breeding needs to be clarified.
          11. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 20: 22
            +1
            Of course, the old-timers of the Murmansk region told me that horses in the Arctic are successfully digging reindeer moss from under the snow and willingly devour it, but in this case we are clearly not talking about the best cavalry horse in Europe.
          12. Engineer
            Engineer 15 January 2021 21: 11
            +1
            The Germans on the Rhine, according to Radoslav Gavronsky, at the beginning of the 1st millennium AD. developed its own breed of riding horses suitable for battle. Not very large, with a short neck, rough but muscular.
            The Germanic world itself, of course, was not monolithic, but the connections were very stable and extensive - the Gothic antiquities continued to flow into Scandinavia from the Black Sea coast even in the 3rd century.
            This I mean that a good innovation had every chance to spread to the entire area of ​​the Germans. And then regional development followed.
          13. Trilobite Master
            15 January 2021 21: 13
            +1
            If we are talking about the Jutland breed, then these are powerful, hardy, tall and densely coated horses. For heavy cavalry - really just right. This is not about speed.
            It is these horses that are needed in the peasant economy, so nothing surprises me here.
          14. Engineer
            Engineer 15 January 2021 21: 17
            0
            If we are talking about the Jutland breed, then these are powerful, hardy, tall and densely coated horses. For heavy cavalry - really just right. This is not about speed.
            It is these horses that are needed in the peasant economy, so nothing surprises me here.

            For early Middle Ages Europe is excluded. Icelandic ponies (exterior, not genetics) are much more likely.
          15. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 21: 26
            +2
            My respect, Denis! I would like to hear your opinion about Wendel. I really don't understand how this "goblin sanctuary" could happen ?!
          16. Engineer
            Engineer 15 January 2021 21: 32
            +1
            Good evening, Anton
            All that I will say below is purely my opinion
            For decades, returning German mercenaries have brought money, valuables, status items, language skills necessary for trade, and knowledge of geography about the surrounding lands. And everything eventually fused into a proto-state
            The clue can be found in the story with the Heruli as told by Procopius of Caesarea about how they returned home to the island of Thule, very close to Wendel, even if we do not know the exact location
            This is exactly the 6th century, beats according to dates
            Next, you can compose a whole detective novel from tolerances and speculations (in a neutral sense)

            PS I'm almost sure that Procopius 'Thule is not Pytheas' Thule, but Gotland
          17. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 21: 46
            +1
            But how did they manage to maintain the civilizational impulse in the MLP conditions, while the rest of Europe was degrading?
          18. Engineer
            Engineer 15 January 2021 22: 03
            +1
            1. The same Anglo-Saxons did not degrade, on the contrary. A bunch of stone buildings, chronicles and poetry in their native language.
            2. The area of ​​the Wendel culture is relatively small. Such an oasis and a center of attraction in a large space for all active and inquisitive and skillful people.
          19. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 22: 13
            +1
            How do Mikhail think that there was a "crowding" of cultures?
          20. Engineer
            Engineer 15 January 2021 23: 11
            +1
            With the amendment, judging by the sagas, they were mired in strife with the allocation of a new noble jarl. Decentralization is shorter. Jarls are "secondary", not tribal nobility.
          21. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 23: 22
            +1
            Decomposition of the clan and tribal system, the separation of military leaders, the beginning of feudalism.
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol 15 January 2021 09: 55
    +5
    It is impossible.
    If Rurik became an autocratic dictator, then his descendants would be the same.
    But it is known that the power of the princes in Russia, especially in Novgorod, was not at all unlimited. The princes were sometimes simply expelled, even Alexander Nevsky went through this.
    Novgorod also had a militia, the citizens of Novgorod themselves were good at handling weapons. So it would hardly be possible to "bend" them.
    The Normans played a role in the formation of the statehood not of Russia, but of the Western European states. So there and the relationship of the feudal lords (among them there were former yarls) with their subjects were different, much more severe. It is enough to consider in more detail the history of the Duchy of Normandy.
    1. Trilobite Master
      15 January 2021 12: 41
      +3
      Quote: Illanatol
      If Rurik became an autocratic dictator, then his descendants would be the same.

      Where do you get this nonsense from? "An autocratic dictator" ... Why not the president at once?
      He was never a king, nor a dictator, nor a president, but he was a military leader who managed to gain a foothold in a certain territory, in such a way that his successors were able to expand this territory and absorb all other similar formations.
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 15 January 2021 14: 50
        -1
        But the real Scandinavian labels that were entrenched in Western Europe were more abruptly than the presidents.
        Feudalism did not grow out of antiquity, it was brought to Europe with the swords of similar barbarians.
        Can you give an example, when in Western Europe some townspeople expelled at least some lousy count, especially a duke from his "territories"?
        It is no coincidence that feudal castles appeared in Europe at the time of Scandinavian revelry. Were there many castles in Russia?
  • yaglon
    yaglon 15 January 2021 19: 51
    0
    Novgorod did not exist in 860, there were only a few small fortified boat stands in its area (according to archeology data). Actually, it was Rurik who, apparently, founded Novgorod.
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 15 January 2021 06: 33
    +3
    Quote: Korsar4
    Thank you, Michael.
    It's good that we took up the topic

    The version of the ukropitek origin of Rurik from the ancient Ukain "Hryurik" has not been disclosed.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 08: 13
    +4
    It's good that we took up the topic.
    If you put it a little bit, we can assume the title of the following article: The generic sign of Rurik as a kind of tamga.
  • D.Yu.
    D.Yu. 18 January 2021 21: 04
    +1
    Sorry, Sergei, Rurik is not a legend. Not always uncontrollable reason is fiction. People did not immediately believe that the Earth revolved around the Sun, and not vice versa.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 18 January 2021 22: 08
      +1
      I will try to formulate. There are times that we know in detail.
      It is not necessary for a person to have, for example, a passport. And there are mistakes in passports.

      But, if we consider the time of Alexei Mikhailovich, you can get to any details.

      And now even Princess Olga - the brightest personality - is legendary.
      Who burned the Drevlyans, who arranged the execution of the ambassador, who switched the basileus.

      And what do we know about Rurik?

      “Three brothers have come -
      Middle-aged Varangians "?

      Although, of course, up to Fyodor Ioannovich, he was the ancestor of the dynasty.
      1. D.Yu.
        D.Yu. 18 January 2021 23: 43
        0
        I was hooked by the nonsense of PVL so that I had to devote two years to finding answers to questions. Now all the characters of Nestor have found reality, moreover, there were still little-known ones. Water does not flow under the lying stone, do you want to know who was who? I wrote the address. As far as I understand, you are in charge here? Try to be ahead of others in knowledge.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 19 January 2021 04: 48
          +1
          In no case. I didn't even think about how the hierarchy is built here.
          1. D.Yu.
            D.Yu. 19 January 2021 16: 02
            +1
            May I write an article?
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 19 January 2021 18: 04
              +1
              As far as I understand, yes. And here the editorial board and the moderators will decide whether to print, and when.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 19 January 2021 19: 32
            +1
            I know in general terms.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 19 January 2021 20: 15
              +1
              And who made out what roles?
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 19 January 2021 20: 29
                +1
                Founding Fathers
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 19 January 2021 21: 22
                  +1
                  Interesting. Like any structure, it is broken down into smaller formations. And dynamic.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 19 January 2021 21: 29
                    +1
                    I'm not trendy. An ordinary user with whom the management found it possible to communicate
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 19 January 2021 23: 02
                      +1
                      There may also be key units among users.
  • svp67
    svp67 15 January 2021 05: 15
    +11
    All statements of the supporters of the truth of this thesis are based solely on assumptions.

    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 15 January 2021 05: 28
      +5
      A peculiar interpretation of Umila.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 15 January 2021 06: 33
      +5
      "Pepper" - what a fine fellow! Been on his author's excursions 10 years ago.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 15 January 2021 07: 28
        +5
        I'm surprised. Not my genre at all. And the video does not cause rejection.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 15 January 2021 07: 37
          +5
          This is the first time I see Pepper in this role. In general, let's say, a semi-professional historian.
    3. D.Yu.
      D.Yu. 19 January 2021 17: 05
      0
      Bards-guslars joined the discussion of the topic
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 15 January 2021 05: 46
    +3
    Rurik was the enemy of the communists. Because was not a slave. And only the enemies of the communists can have motives to belittle the role of Russians as a Slovenian people in the ethnogenesis of the future Soviet Supercivilization.
    Am I lying because I am lying? No, comrades, tk. not being an enemy of the communists, I follow the behests of Ilyich, who deceived only the gendarmes during the search!
    1. Far B
      Far B 15 January 2021 06: 08
      +2
      Eck you poked something laughing I understand that it's Friday, but it's still too early, especially in Krasnodar laughing
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 09: 24
        +2
        This is inspired by a previous article by Mikhail laughing drinks
    2. sniperino
      sniperino 15 January 2021 08: 10
      +2
      Quote: Krasnodar
      I follow the precepts of Ilyich, who deceived only the gendarmes during the search!
      No need to la-la, this is not the gendarmerie: Ilyich began as a child with a broken vase. In the USSR, every October child knew about these basics of conspiracy.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 09: 23
        +3
        It was not yet Lenin, these are all the tricks of Volodya Ulyanov repeat
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 10: 20
          +3
          It was not yet Lenin, these are all the tricks of Volodya Ulyanov

          Yeah, and the tricks of Lenin, not Ulyanov, are to sculpt inkwells out of bread. laughing
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 15 January 2021 10: 21
            +2
            And offer the gendarme a stool during a search good
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 10: 24
              +4
              And offer the gendarme a stool during a search

              Albert, I don't remember that! What happened next? drinks
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 15 January 2021 10: 35
                +5
                “And Lenin had forbidden books and various revolutionary documents. And all these books and documents were in a bookcase on the bottom shelf.

                Here is one fat, mustachioed gendarme standing at the door so that no one comes in and out.

                And another gendarme, small in stature, but also mustachioed and fierce, walks around the room and fusses with all his nose.

                He examined the table, the chest of drawers, looked into the stove and did not even hesitate to crawl under the bed to see what was there.

                Then he goes to the bookcase and says:

                - And what's that in your closet?

                Lenin says:

                - These are my books in the closet.

                Gendarme says:

                - But now I will look at these books of yours and see what it is!

                And so the gendarme stands near this cabinet and thinks: where should he start his inspection - from the top shelf or from the bottom?

                Lenin's wife, Nadezhda Konstantinovna Krupskaya, looks at this gendarme and thinks:

                “If only he started the search from the top shelf. If he starts from the top shelf, then good; then at the end of the search he will get tired and will not carefully examine the last regiment. But if he starts the search from the bottom shelf, then it's bad - just on this shelf, among other books, there are forbidden ones. "

                Lenin also looks at the gendarme and thinks about it too.

                Suddenly Lenin, slightly smiling at his thoughts, takes a chair and puts this chair to the closet. And he says to the gendarme:

                - Than with your small stature to stretch - get on this chair and start checking my books.

                The little mustachioed gendarme, seeing such a courtesy from the revolutionary, thanked him and climbed into a chair. But as he climbed into a chair, he, clearly, began to examine from the top shelf. That is, what Lenin needed.

                And looking at the gendarme, Vladimir Ilyich smiled.

                And Krupskaya also smiled, seeing that Lenin forced the gendarme to do as he needed.

                Here is a gendarme rummaging through the upper shelves, reading the titles and shaking up every book. And time goes by. There are many books. And in three hours the gendarme barely had time to look through four regiments.

                The gendarme began to examine the fifth regiment less attentively. Moreover, the fat gendarme standing at the door began to sigh and mope. And he even told his friend:

                - Oh, how long the search takes ... I'm tired and want to eat.

                The little gendarme says:

                - Let's go to dinner soon. Here is the last regiment left. Well, yes, they probably don't have anything on this shelf either, since nothing was found in the entire cabinet.

                The Fat Gendarme says:

                - I see, they have nothing. Let's go eat.

                Almost without examining the lower shelf, the little gendarme said to Lenin:

                - It turns out that we did not find anything forbidden with you. I have the honor to bow.

                And with these words the gendarmes left. "
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 10: 39
                  +6
                  And with these words the gendarmes left. "

                  Class! We read all this at school .. but forgotten .. Now I read it like an exciting detective story! good drinks
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 15 January 2021 10: 49
                    +6
                    And the descendants of the pioneers
                    And the descendants are october
                    Everyone knows how to hide the first
                    If an outfit entered the house!
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 05
                      +3
                      And the descendants of the pioneers

                      On the woe to all bourgeoisie, we will fan the world fire! drinks
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 11: 54
                        +3
                        Our proletarian nose! drinks
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 13: 43
                        +5
                        Our proletarian nose!

                        By the way, it would be interesting if Shpakovsky wrote an article about Lev Davidovich's armored train. He was hanging out nearby at one time in 1918. drinks Well, with Shpakovsky's syllable ... we would have gotten a lot of positive emotions from the discussion later! laughing
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 14: 26
                        +2
                        I'll have to order)).
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 30
                        +2
                        I'll have to order)).

                        He wrote a comment at the very bottom. Do you want me to go order? drinks
                      5. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 14: 45
                        +2
                        Of course. Then tell me about the result drinks
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 11: 05
    +4
    And from my cellmate - Nadezhda Konstantinovna. repeat
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 11
      +4
      And from my cellmate - Nadezhda Konstantinovna.

      I thought Uncle Kostya would say about it, but you said. laughing And, like, a decent, well-mannered young man ... lol
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 11: 17
        +4
        And, like, a decent, well-mannered young man ...
        I am amazed at the variety of your metaphors! good
        No one has ever called me an "old weirdo" so gracefully.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 22
          +3
          No one has ever called me an "old weirdo" so gracefully.

          You know, when Albert said about the stool, my first association was the story of how Lieutenant Rzhevsky pulled it out from under Andrei Bolkonsky's feet at the most inopportune moment, and then took it away with violence. fellow But I did not tell about such a sacrament! stop And you - here, here, please, immediately handed over Vladimir Ilyich with giblets. laughing
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 January 2021 11: 14
      +3
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      And from my cellmate - Nadezhda Konstantinovna. repeat

      Inessu Armand laughing
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 24
        +5
        Inessu Armand

        Krupskaya says that today Armand, Armand - that Krupskaya, and himself - in the library, and work, work, work! wink
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 15 January 2021 11: 27
          +4
          Study, study and study again laughing
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 11: 28
            +4
            Study, study and study again

            Well, look, but this is a vivid example of how a strong politician can turn out of a journalist! what
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 15 January 2021 11: 55
              +3
              Heh. So "there is such a party in the world" fellow
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 12: 13
                +4
                Heh. So "there is such a party in the world"

                Albert, do you know what this building is? wink This is the center of Pskov. The house where the future revolutionary Sofya Perovskaya lived ... fellow It's funny that it is still residential, multi-apartment, although it is almost crumbling - especially the porch (entrance to the right). Our photo, January 2020.
              2. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 15
                +3
                Wow. I wonder how many times have all the plumbing and wiring been changed there? Multilevel hut laughing
              3. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 12: 17
                +3
                I wonder how many times have all the plumbing and wiring been changed there?

                Here, rather, I wonder when was the last time ..
                Multilevel hut

                Agree, lived with dignity? hi
              4. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 23
                +3
                Probably. We do not know what was considered worthy at that time among people of her wealth, origin, class, etc.
              5. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 12: 33
                +3
                Probably. We do not know what was considered worthy at that time among people of her wealth, origin, class, etc.

                Her father was a descendant of K. Razumovsky, and at that time - the Pskov vice-governor (later became the governor of St. Petersburg). Interestingly, Wikipedia does not mention at all that she lived in Pskov as a child. And there is a sign hanging.
              6. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 37
                +3
                Then so be it. Although how the rest of the hereditary aristocracy of Pskov lived, we do not know
              7. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 13: 20
                +3
                Although how the rest of the hereditary aristocracy of Pskov lived, we do not know

                A number of buildings of the late Middle Ages - the beginning of the New Age remained in Pskov. I will say this - not very luxurious in comparison with the buildings in St. Petersburg. But interesting! My Pskov and I love, and we go there once a quarter.
              8. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 15 January 2021 15: 02
                +4
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                A number of buildings of the late Middle Ages - the beginning of the New Age remained in Pskov. I will say this - not very luxurious in comparison with the buildings in St. Petersburg. But interesting! My Pskov and I love, and we go there once a quarter.

                I would even say that Pskov is very well preserved in comparison with the same Novgorod, which suffered greatly during the war. True, the fortress is almost restored, but limestone - what to do, a very short-lived stone. hi
              9. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 14
                +4
                True, the fortress is almost restored, but limestone - what to do, a very short-lived stone.

                The fortress was in a collapsed state already under Nikolai Pavlovich. The first to reconstruct it was the architect Ton. And one of the towers at the entrance was rebuilt from round to square in cross-section. request Indeed, the Pskov Krom began to be restored after the war. By the way, it is very captivating that both towers were restored near the "lower gratings". In my presence, a local fisherman in August, opposite the Srednaya Tower, pulled out a small pike - straight from Pskova. Measured and released. good
              10. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 15 January 2021 15: 21
                +2
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                The fortress was in a collapsed state already under Nikolai Pavlovich.

                Yes, so she looked rather unfortunate:

                By the way, many parts of the wall and towers of the Okolny city were relatively well preserved thanks to Peter I, they were covered with earth to create more modern bastions at that time, where they were well preserved. hi
              11. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 27
                +3
                they were covered with earth to create more modern bastions at that time

                This is exactly how the Pokrovskaya Tower was preserved - the widest one in the system of fortifications, not far from the "breach". It was filled with earth after the Narva embarrassment, a bastion was poured nearby - Petrovskaya Gorka. The tsar was afraid that the cocky Karl would trample in the direction of Pskov and Novgorod. belay
                Snapshot on January 2, 2019, shot by mine. drinks

                In short - here. It seems that I didn’t even lie very much ... laughing
                https://topwar.ru/154818-zimnij-vecher-kreposti-pskov.html
              12. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 15 January 2021 15: 48
                +2
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                In short - here. It seems like I didn't even lie too much ... laughing
                https://topwar.ru/154818-zimnij-vecher-kreposti-pskov.html

                I read it, Nikolay, - wonderful: I wanted to go to Pskov again drinks
              13. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 50
                +2
                I read it, Nikolay, - wonderful: I wanted to go to Pskov again

                I bow, Sergey! drinks I had an idea to go to Novgorod, but it did not grow together during the holidays. Although certificates have already been prepared about non-covidity ... recourse And we went to Pskov only four times last year! laughing
                By the way, I met information that the lions standing in front of the Novgorod Museum were taken from Gruzino - the Arakcheev estate and the owner of the cross from Andrew the First-Called.
              14. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 15 January 2021 16: 03
                +2
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                I had an idea to go to Novgorod,

                Go there now - "don't hit the lying person" on the new road - 1,30 - 2,0 hours: 120-130 km you go, only better with a transponder and cheaper and faster.
                that the lions standing in front of the Novgorod Museum were taken from the Gruzino - Arakcheev estate
                Did not know.
                The museum is good, if my wife hadn't pulled me out of there, I would have walked there until evening.
              15. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 16: 13
                +2
                The museum is good, if my wife hadn't pulled me out of there, I would have walked there until evening.

                We did not go to the museum. We arrived late, walked around the Kremlin in a circle, it is open until midnight. I also recommend going to the samples of military equipment on the southern side of Detinets - there you can see the T-70M.
                I will retreat a little: in Pereslavl-Zalessky there is a museum of the narrow-gauge railway. Half of the exhibits there are cars. Among them is the unique FAI-M. And they found him near Novgorod! soldier
        2. igordok
          igordok 15 January 2021 20: 26
          +2
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          It was filled with earth after the Narva embarrassment, a bastion - Petrovskaya Gorka - was poured nearby. The tsar was afraid that the cocky Karl would trample in the direction of Pskov and Novgorod.

          This "Petrovskaya Gorka" is called Pokrovsky semi-bastion (on some maps - Pokrovsky bastion).
          Peter I, mainly on the basis of old fortresses, built many fortifications of the bastion type from Pskov (more precisely from Pechora) to Bryansk.
        3. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 20: 33
          +2
          Peter I, mainly on the basis of old fortresses, built many fortifications of the bastion type from Pskov (more precisely from Pechora) to Bryansk.

          Igor, I only remembered you, I thought when you would come. In Pskov, bastions are well poured along Pskov - where the park is. drinks
        4. igordok
          igordok 15 January 2021 20: 38
          +2
          Along Pskov, not bastions, but batteries, most of which can no longer be discerned. The bastions stood on the floor side of the Roundabout city
        5. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 21: 44
          +2
          Along Pskov, not bastions, but batteries, most of which can no longer be distinguished

          Have washed away. Batteries. Why can't you see? They are located above the park - you need to climb. drinks
        6. igordok
          igordok 15 January 2021 23: 52
          +4
          T.N. The Finnish park is bordered from west to east by the Pyatnitskaya, Savvinskaya and Annunciation batteries. This is how these batteries look now. (Batteries, unlike bastions, cannot conduct flanking fire, only frontal and oblique aiming)

          The hill is the remains of the Pyatnitskaya battery.

          Former Savvinskaya battery. Now a successful toboggan slide.

          The Annunciation battery is well preserved. Now there is a small lift for skiers and a small slide for skiing.
        7. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 16 January 2021 14: 35
          +1
          Everyone went around in March. Round. On the southwest side, comfortable flooring around the towers is made. yes
          I'm sorry that Kinza is closed. Everything there was a plus. sad
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 15 January 2021 15: 19
    +2
    Thanks for the recommendation - I'll take it into account for trips with kids))
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 22
    +3
    Thanks for the recommendation - I'll take it into account for trips with kids))

    Pskov, Izborsk, Pushgory (this is at least two days), the Pechersky Monastery - a small fairy-tale-leaf town inside the walls. good As for Novgorod, I am less of an expert! recourse
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 15 January 2021 15: 28
    +2
    The Optimal Outing Point - Peter?
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 31
    +4
    The Optimal Outing Point - Peter?

    Maybe yes. If you don't want to go south or east - you will go to Vyborg - the only knight's castle in Russia. good There is also the only rocky park.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 15: 35
    +3
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    you will go to Vyborg - the only knight's castle in Russia. good There is also the only rocky park.

    On January 3 of this year we went to Vyborg and it turned out that the rest of the residents of St. Petersburg and Len. the oblasts did the same: for an hour and a half we stood in line at the museum, after which they announced that the tickets were over, went to Mon Repos, managed to enter, but it got dark, in general, this time it did not work out.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 42
    +4
    for an hour and a half we stood in line at the museum

    Sadness! This usually happens in Tsarskoe Selo in the summer, when the influx of citizens from the Middle Kingdom ... Sergei, two hundred kilometers of the road to the cat's tail? sad
    By the way, I thought the museums were closed. belay I recommend - go to Zelenogorsk, there is a small museum of vintage cars in the park of culture and recreation. There is a similar one in Vyborg too - I have never been there.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 16: 40
    +2
    By the way, I thought the museums were closed.
    It's an area! There are rattles!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 16: 39
    +3
    We traveled to Vyborg for two days, this is the best way.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 16: 45
    +2
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    We traveled to Vyborg for two days, this is the best way.

    That's right, at first I wanted it that way too, but then it didn't work out and in the end - "bummer" everywhere.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 15: 55
    +2
    There is also the only rocky park.
    You haven't been to Ruskeala.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 55
    +3
    You haven't been to Ruskeala.

    Where is the marble quarry?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 15: 58
    +3
    Quite right. And Mon Repos was restored this year.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 16: 00
    +4
    Quite right. And Mon Repos was restored this year.

    Honestly, I haven't been to Ruskeala. recourse
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 16: 04
    +2
    Well, you will get there next summer, Priozersk on the way again.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 16: 14
    +3
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Priozersk on the way again

    There are halberds in the Priozersk Museum and also a museum on Mount Filin near Lahdenpohja
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 16: 19
    +3
    We didn't get there that time.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 16: 38
    +2
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    We didn't get there that time.

    You can call in, not to say that the exposition is super, but the building itself - the rock bunker is interesting and with the guide's story it is quite wow:

  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 16: 46
    +2
    Simply, in Priozersk we slowed down on the way back. It was 15 years old, do you remember the quality of the Sortavala track? And a friend was driving, I did not drive then.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 16: 53
    +2
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Simply, in Priozersk we slowed down on the way back. It was 15 years old, do you remember the quality of the Sortavala track? And a friend was driving, I did not drive then.

    Yes, then it was not very good, now we did it, to Priozersk - no more than 1,30 hours.
    The fortress itself is in good condition, everything is in order:




    I remember what was there in the 90s: heaven and earth.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 16: 55
    +2
    Actually, only the fortress and visited.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 16: 14
    +1
    Priozersk on the way again.

    It should be! Oh, we should! Thanks for the wishes, friend!
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 16: 43
    +2
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    Honestly, I haven't been to Ruskeala.

    It's really beautiful there, the first time I went there in the fall:



  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 16: 44
    +2
    It's really beautiful there, the first time I went there in the fall:

    Highly! Really! good My brother and wife went there, but here I am ... I hope to catch up!
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 14: 59
    +3
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    The house where the future revolutionary Sophia Perovskaya lived ... f Our photo, January 2020.

    I have the same, only August ... drinks
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 19
    +2
    I have the same, only August ...

    But this is last year's January. The building is in the courtyards on the other side of the museum. The masonry is visible from different years. Well, and garbage - how much without it! No.


    It is from a different angle. On the right - it looks like Podznoev's yard. Did you go there? drinks
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 15: 23
    +2
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    On the right - it looks like Podznoev's yard. Did you go there?

    She didn’t come in, there’s some sort of pompous restaurant there?
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 30
    +2
    Is there some sort of pompous restaurant there?

    There is also a hotel. Although, as far as I understand, they have the coolest rooms on the right bank of the Pskov - opposite the Krom. By the way, in August there was dug around. how they got there - God knows. Our photo, January 2, 2019.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 15 January 2021 15: 32
    +2
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    Our photo, January 2, 2019

    Is this done from the bridge?
    There is a beer restaurant on the other side, we celebrated my wife's birthday there in August.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 39
    +2
    Is this done from the bridge?

    Yes. For two years in a row - in 2019 and 2020 - we went to Pskov for two or three days for the New Year holidays. Only the year before last everything was fabulously white, but in the past .. There is no snow .. There is no shine .. Sad! request
    There is a beer restaurant on the other side, we celebrated my wife's birthday there in August.

    They also put up a tent on the street .. We wanted to go in, but passed by. what Two very good restaurants in Pskov closed after self-isolation. Worked in March! sad
  • igordok
    igordok 15 January 2021 20: 31
    +2
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    Although, as far as I understand, they have the coolest rooms on the right bank of the Pskov - opposite the Krom. By the way, in August there was dug around. how they got there - God knows.

    Cool rooms, upstream, on the "Golden Embankment".
    The road has been repaired, now it is very convenient to travel there.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 21: 46
    +2
    Cool rooms, upstream, on the "Golden Embankment".

    Igor, is it opposite Krom? Or above the bridge - where the Buratino mansions are?
  • igordok
    igordok 15 January 2021 23: 28
    +2
    Near the footbridge and slightly upstream.
    Welcome. good
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 16 January 2021 14: 21
    +1
    Near the footbridge and slightly upstream.

    Got it. There is still a cathedral to the left of the bridge - I published a photo of it.
  • Hantengri
    Hantengri 15 January 2021 12: 27
    +4
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    And from my cellmate - Nadezhda Konstantinovna. repeat

    He was sitting alone, so Nadezhda Konstantinovna had to sculpt from bread too. bully
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 January 2021 12: 38
      +3
      Did you have to eat it every time the gendarmes arrived? ))
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 13: 47
        +4
        Did you have to eat it every time the gendarmes arrived? ))

        It reminded me of the Japanese transcription of Soviet poems for children:
        I bought a geisha.
        Made of latex.
        I'll call you Zina.

        I mean, maybe this clone of Nadezhda Konstantinovna was from a different material, and Vladimir Ilyich just rolled it into a roll? request
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 15 January 2021 14: 21
          +3
          In a French bar - a baguette.
          I see Fujiyama behind bars
          Nadia-san plays the shamisen
          Chu! Rhonin's dog keys noise
          Quickly I crush Krupskaya in Miso
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 26
            +5
            Quickly I crush Krupskaya in Miso

            It smacks of dismemberment and cannibalism ... wink
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 15 January 2021 14: 31
              +4
              Below Kyoto is burning with lights
              Tall mushroom grows over Hiroshima
              Should I eat liver or nipples?
              Asked a Korean woman tied to a tank soldier
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 54
              +4
              Taking into account the events that have taken place in St. Petersburg over the past year with a little, the cartoonists agree! laughing
              Sergey Korsun:

              Vasya Lozhkin:
            3. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 15 January 2021 15: 14
              +3
              winked night, lantern, pharmacy
              And there are also wine glasses
              This is where you sit with yourself in front of a gray wall and thump ... after that it's good if you just hack your grandmother ... and don't sew a fashionable kasuha from her for S. Marmeladova ...
  • Sertorius
    Sertorius 15 January 2021 05: 52
    +5
    The name Svyatoslav contains the root "glory", which is a literal translation into the Slavic language of the first part of the name of Father Igor - "Hród" - glory, in fact, the basis of the name "Hrórekr", that is, "Rurik".

    This interested me. And immediately raised questions. First, the author did not substantiate why he considers the name of Rurik to be two-part. Secondly, the word Hród is present in the language of the Polabian Slavs in the meaning of "castle, fortress". You can verify this if you find a dictionary of the Upper Sorbian language on the net. That is, this argument can be interpreted in favor of the "Slavic version".
  • Operator
    Operator 15 January 2021 06: 38
    +3
    Transfusion from empty to empty, namely, attracting by the ears of linguistics to the place where genetics has already put an end to the issue - in the territory of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine in the burials of the 9-10 centuries, not a single bone remains have been found belonging to the carriers of haplogroups of the inhabitants of the Scandinavian Peninsula.

    Jewish and Tatar "historians" hurt to tears bully
    1. sniperino
      sniperino 15 January 2021 08: 23
      +5
      Quote: Operator
      on the territory of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine in the graves of the 9-10 centuries, not a single bone remains have been found belonging to the carriers of haplogroups of the inhabitants of the Scandinavian Peninsula
      It is necessary to bury it so that it is not found. Vikings knew how to do it beautifully
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 15 January 2021 08: 30
        +3
        "This too shall pass". It's just a matter of time. And now - all the faster goes into oblivion under the heap of new information.
      2. Illanatol
        Illanatol 15 January 2021 09: 32
        +1
        And they did not leave descendants? We practiced a vow of celibacy, probably :)
        1. sniperino
          sniperino 15 January 2021 10: 28
          0
          Quote: Illanatol
          And they did not leave descendants?
          Good question. But why did their descendants have to hide the dead differently? Rurik in the family tree of European monarchs and at one time stood closest to Odin, and today all sorts of European kings and queens did not stand nearby at all. I myself did not understand their genealogy, but I trust A. Wasserman, who talks about it. Now imagine yourself in his place. Would you give up such kinship and jumped over to foreign gods for reigning over the tribes that had recently driven away your predecessor?
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol 15 January 2021 13: 17
            0
            Women were also burned?
            And after the adoption of Christianity, all these "Rurikovichs" continued to burn their relatives?
            Go, they are still burning, for the sake of preserving the "purity of haplogroups" :)
            1. sniperino
              sniperino 15 January 2021 14: 00
              +1
              Quote: Illanatol
              Women were also burned?
              And after the adoption of Christianity, all these "Rurikovichs" continued to burn their relatives?
              You do not have any data on either the Scandinavian women in Rurik's "home", or the Scandinavian Vikings in "his squad," and there is no DNA analysis of Rurik. But where does the confidence come from that if Rurik himself were a Scandinavian, then he would certainly have brought with him a crowd of jarls and carls with jarls and dwarfs?
              If several Slavic tribes cannot peacefully agree on what kind of clan the prince will be, then it is logical to invite a German without a large squad, but a noble one, in order to get rid of strife. Before Rurik, who was invited to Ladoga?
      3. Operator
        Operator 15 January 2021 09: 58
        0
        What do you want to say - that all the Scandinavians in Russia in the 9-10 centuries were killed and burned, led by Rorik, even before they had time to leave at least one of their descendants? bully

        The Scandinavians burned their ships upon arrival in Scandinavia (otherwise what would they return on) and only in cases of the death of the leaders, and not ordinary soldiers who were buried in low mounds.
        1. sniperino
          sniperino 15 January 2021 10: 51
          0
          Quote: Operator
          What do you want to say - that all the Scandinavians in Russia in the 9-10 centuries were killed and burned, led by Rorik, even before they had time to leave at least one of their descendants?
          Are you sure that his squad was numerous and consisted entirely of Jarls? EMNIP, Rurik had been hanging around among the Polabian Slavs before. He could know the language and recruit a squad from them, and learned from them about a vacancy in the East.
          1. Operator
            Operator 15 January 2021 12: 28
            0
            The Scandinavians and Western Slavs fought separately. Only a few former prisoners after several years of being in captivity and entering into trust could get into a foreign squad.
          2. Illanatol
            Illanatol 15 January 2021 13: 40
            -1
            He did not "hang around", but was a leader-commander, had a rich combat experience. Allegedly, he even defeated the troops of the German emperor.
            I found out about the vacancy through official channels. His grandfather (mother's father) called him to Novgorod.
          3. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 26 January 2021 13: 17
            -1
            Quote: sniperino
            Are you sure that his squad was numerous and consisted entirely of

            Everything that happened around Rurik is negotiated with Rurik himself with assumptions - it could be so, but it could be that way. As soon as Rurik stands like a rock, like a monolith - Norman and Basta. Isn't it strange?
            1. sniperino
              sniperino 26 January 2021 17: 03
              0
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Only Rurik stands like a rock, like a monolith - Norman and Basta. Isn't it strange?
              My Rurik is not worth it - he is swinging. smile I fully admit that he was a Slav, like Rybakov's, a Wend or a German. For me, the question is not fundamental, although interesting. Not so long ago I listened to a video clip by A. Wasserman, where he talked about the seniority of the Russian dynasty in the dynastic tree of European monarchs, as standing at the time of its existence closer to the others to Odin, but missed the Rurikovich, as I wrote here without thinking, or Romanovs, it seems to me now. But I didn't manage to find that video on YouTube (there was generally something else about it), and I couldn't find it in other sources. Don't you know?
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 26 January 2021 18: 40
                0
                Quote: sniperino
                You do not know?

                Sorry no.
        2. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 26 January 2021 18: 49
          -1
          Quote: Operator
          Scandinavians burned their ships upon arrival in Scandinavia

          For what purpose? What is this, a stool, I burned it today, tomorrow I will make a new one?
          Let's imagine that the Jarl dies in battle and is burned along with his Drakkar. And the rest of the soldiers will go home on the water like dry? So what?
          So, they burned firewood on a piece of wood.
      4. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 10: 21
        +10
        Vikings knew how to do it beautifully

        In the museum of Staraya Ladoga there is a map of the found nearby burial sites. They burned them! yes
        1. Operator
          Operator 15 January 2021 12: 25
          0
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          They burned them!

          And all of our laughing

          Are you aware that the burning of leaders at the stake and the Slavic custom too?
    2. Trilobite Master
      15 January 2021 12: 50
      +5
      For the eleventh time I ask - where is the research? laughing
      In this regard, you and your dumbass are no longer really annoying, but amusing ...
      Well, tell us already, sirim - who, when examined the remains from the graves
      Quote: Operator
      on the territory of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine

      and what were the results.
      And your adored genetics showed a Scandinavian haplogroup in the descendants of Rurik with a distribution center in the Uppsala region, what more do you want?
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 15 January 2021 13: 12
        +5
        Klesov's official conclusion based on the results of the genotest audit. soldier
        1. Trilobite Master
          15 January 2021 13: 26
          +7
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Klesov's official conclusion based on the results of the genotest audit. soldier

          Yes, even so. Let it be Klesov - it would be at least something to walk a tractor. laughing
          And it really turns out funny. You can make a clever look and carry any scientific crap, and when asked where it can be read, proudly answer "look for yourself" or "reformat ru" ...
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 15 January 2021 14: 13
            +6
            Scientific horseradish? Yes, easily fellow
            The gallogroup AC +, found among the Novosibirsk and Ulan-Uda Slavs during the excavations of the Anadyr and Sakhalin mounds, is typical of the Rurik people since the time of Amenhotep II and other representatives of the Qin-Hohenzollern dynasty, who ruled on the Iberian Peninsula before the acid attack.
            Meanwhile, hallucinogenic mushroom tinctures were not brought to Russia by the Scandinavians, as the Masters of the West and the enemies of the Communists who sympathize with them, from the fans of the petty bourgeois group Ace of Base, propagate through the lips of the liberals.
            According to the results of the analysis of the mutations EGFR, BRCA and Komsomol, the content of this type of nishtyak in the RNA of the builders of communism from the Drevlyans, meadows and the Mohicans inhabiting Suzdal is being traced even before the Cro-Magnons turned into full-fledged berserkers.
            Conclusion:
            Rurik was a Vladimir Cherokee - the carrier of the genes of the Kenyan Aryans and the Filipino Ainu. That is, Yugoslav, not Viking. hi
            1. Trilobite Master
              15 January 2021 14: 27
              +9
              Well, somewhere like that, actually ... laughing
              We are still far from Klesov - he has more bukoff, but if we try, sooner or later we will catch up with him and become the luminaries of historical science. The Operator's descendants will in twenty years refer to us as indisputable authorities in the field of history. You just need to establish your own academy again, and, in general, the next thing is only to knock on the keyboard, and glory - it will come.
              I suggest the name of the academy:
              Academy of "Correct History of the Earth - the Most Ancient Universal Science". Abbreviated - "Academy ..." Well, you still have to work with the abbreviation ...
              laughing
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 15 January 2021 14: 34
                +7
                laughing
                The Ancient Universal Science can be replaced with a Long-term Common Purpose - it will also correspond)).
                1. Trilobite Master
                  15 January 2021 14: 35
                  +7
                  Let's work together, Albert. good laughing
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 16: 46
                    +3
                    Let's work together, Albert.

                    Colleagues, for some reason I have no doubt about it .... And you know the reason! drinks here already - "sacred" as they say!
      2. Operator
        Operator 15 January 2021 14: 20
        -3
        I do not communicate with Tatar "historians".
        1. Trilobite Master
          15 January 2021 14: 29
          +5
          Well, not for me, so at least tell your colleagues. laughing
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2021 06: 46
    +4
    The derivation of the name Rurik from the Pomor-Slavic word "rerig" ("falcon"), as well as the interpretation of the names Sineus and Truvor as the phrases "sine hus" and "tru varing" - "with their own house" and "faithful squad" - are incredible in linguistic considerations.
    It is surprising that with this statement Melnikova contrasts Rurik with Truvor and Sineus.
    Thank you Michael!
    1. depressant
      depressant 15 January 2021 09: 14
      +4
      Good morning Anton! Good morning everybody!)))
      Now let's imagine that you, colleagues, are in a hard frost. Try to articulate "Rochrig". On the syllable "re" you have to somehow, but open your mouth, pull the corners of your mouth to the sides and swallow the icy air. To save yourself from a cold, you will be able to pronounce "Ryorig" rather, which sounds very close to "Rurik", since in the cold you can pronounce it almost without opening your lips and not strain your vocal apparatus by replacing the hard "g" with the "k" ... And the younger generations remembered, and it quickly became the norm.
      Say, before - that there was no frost? There were, but not like that. According to American geophysicists, a whole series of volcanic eruptions in the middle of the 13th century could have been one of the triggers of the "Little Ice Age" - the era of a strong cooling of the climate in the late Middle Ages and already in modern times.
      Rochrig's transformation into Rurik is just my hypothesis)))
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 09: 24
        +6
        My respect, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
        As if everything is exactly the opposite. The era of Viking campaigns fell on the beginning of the medieval climatic optimum, which was preceded by the Late Antique Little Ice Age.
        1. depressant
          depressant 15 January 2021 10: 16
          +5
          So, so ...
          But then it could have turned out differently. Let's say the Arabs call Alexander "Iskander", Jesus - "Issa". Closely "cooperating" with the Russians, the Vikings could call Rochrig "knes Rurik"))
          On the one hand, paying tribute to the Russian origin of the prince, and on the other, they pronounced it as they were accustomed to. Well, over time it stuck. For example, the Armenians in Russia changed the sound of their surnames to Russian. Which speaks to some extent about the desire to fit comfortably into reality.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 10: 26
            +4
            Let's say the Arabs call Alexander "Iskander"

            I wonder why the son of Konstantin Nikolaevich, Nikolai Konstantinovich, who was exiled to Tashkent for kleptomania, received such a surname? what By the way, in 1917, one of the first in Tashkent hung out a red flag! In gratitude to the "relatives", apparently ... It's a joke! laughing
      2. Trilobite Master
        15 January 2021 13: 02
        +4
        Quote: depressant
        this is just my hypothesis

        Do not produce evil, Lyudmila Yakovlevna. smile
        There are already so many of these linguistic hypotheses, everyone literally considers himself a linguist. Yes, and our ancestors lived in warm semi-dugouts and houses, and even in severe frosts they had the opportunity to talk normally at home by the hearth, not to mention the fact that they had summer ... smile
        Otherwise, I seriously think that you think that "winter articulation" could affect the process of phonetic transformation of sounds in the language as a whole ...
        1. depressant
          depressant 15 January 2021 13: 15
          +3
          Misha, never mind me! Well, it's like at a rally, everyone is shouting and I have to, silence is like a sign of indecency. So you pay tribute to idle talk, because the general op requires creativity as a sign of respect for the Author's report. And also so that, therefore, it is beneficial to shade the thoughts of experts with one's own ignorance. I read the whole forum - what people! ))) Any side to wedge in - flattering wassat )))
    2. Trilobite Master
      15 January 2021 12: 54
      +7
      Melnikova considers Sineus and Truvor to be such real historical figures, like Rurik himself, citing the Scandinavian versions of their names and their transformation into Slavic languages. For her, the existence of Rurik, Sineus and Truvor is an indisputable fact.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 13: 07
        +3
        In this case, she contrasts the denial of the Slavic origin of the name Rurik, the Scandinavian origin of the names Sineus and Truvor. Which, in connection with her opinion about the characters, causes some bewilderment. Perhaps the quote is not very well cited ...
        1. Trilobite Master
          15 January 2021 13: 17
          +5
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          she contrasts the denial of the Slavic origin of the name Rurik, the Scandinavian origin of the names Sineus and Truvor.

          She speaks of the impossibility of the phonetic transformation of the Slavic "rerik" into the Slavic "Rurik", as well as the impossibility of transforming the Scandinavian "with a house and squad" into the Slavic Sineus and Truvor. I see no contradiction.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2021 13: 38
            +4
            For those unfamiliar with Melnikova's position, this is not obvious from the quote, which I noted.
          2. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 15 January 2021 15: 07
            +2
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            as well as the impossibility of transforming the Scandinavian "with a house and squad" into the Slavic Sineus and Truvor

            In general, it is strange, in my opinion, a completely reasonable version, many share it, but many reject it, like Melnikova, however, she is a linguist, she knows better .. hi
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 15 January 2021 07: 37
    +10
    Dolboslavs, go ahead! good
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol 15 January 2021 09: 29
    +5
    The Normanists got it :)
    Russia was more developed than Scandinavia. If only because there were more large cities and villages in Russia. So there was no "kultragerism" on the part of the Normans and could not be.
    And who cares who Rurik was. He was not the founder of statehood, since he did not create any new state institutions. Princes were in Russia even before Rurik, in later times in Russia not only the descendants of Rurik reigned, certainly not the Scandinavians (Drevlyan prince Mal, Polotsk prince Vseslav).
    Rurik himself was only the head of the private security company, who was summoned by the Novgorodians for their protection and nothing more. He was forbidden to interfere in the affairs of the city, he was not even allowed to enter the city itself with a squad for permanent deployment.
    It is impossible to judge ethnicity by name even now (otherwise we, in the majority, are Greeks and Romans). Then even more so. The Slavs had a tradition of giving the child two names. One is obvious, often foreign. The other is a true secret, it was taught to be kept secret in order to avoid damage, evil eye and other magical misfortunes. Very few knew the true name, to reveal it to a non-relative - to show the highest degree of trust. The one to whom you gave your true name is close to you as a brother. This is where the expression "named brother" came from.
    In general, all these attempts to convince that we are Russians are not a "historical" people are just a manifestation of the duty Russophobia. For me, our Russian language is a sufficient reason to consider Russians as the people of the most ancient culture. Any chronicles and chronicles can be forged, language cannot be forged. In terms of lexical richness and grammatical flexibility, only Sanskrit (which is similar to Russian) can be compared with Russian. Consequently, our language is comparable to Sanskrit in antiquity.
    People. having such a perfect and rich language is simply obliged to have rich traditions of social self-organization. Primitive tribes simply do not need a rich and perfect language.
    1. Nazar
      Nazar 15 January 2021 10: 22
      +4
      Illanatol - There is one question for the "Normanists" that they really don't like to answer -
      - And where in the Scandinavian sources there is at least a line about Rurik?
      The well-known and studied work of the skald of Snorri, son of Sturla - "The Earth's Circle" is a collection of legends about the Norwegian kings and jarls from ancient times to 1177. This work mentions "Vikings" who had at least some kind of connection with the Russian princes, they all served with the Russian princes in the squads, and only then, some of them (Olaf, son of Trigvi; Harald, son of Sigurd; Magnus, son of Olaf the saint, etc. ) with the help of the Kiev princes became kings. Less successful "Varangians" are also mentioned in the Earth Circle, those who simply served in Russia in the princely squad, but there is not even a hint of the names of Rurik, Truvor and Sineus, Snorri never met their names either in the sagas or in the Scandinavian chronicles, otherwise such a case that the Scandinavian became a Russian prince, Snorri could not miss, which means that these people - Rurik "and his comrades" were not Scandinavians!
      And who they were and whether they were at all is another question.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 11: 00
        +6
        Hence the conclusion: Sturlsson was the first "Slavist"! laughing
      2. Cartalon
        Cartalon 15 January 2021 12: 30
        +2
        And what does Rerik of Jutland do not suit you?
      3. Trilobite Master
        15 January 2021 13: 07
        +4
        Quote: Nazar
        And where in the Scandinavian sources is there even a line about Rurik?

        Imagine - no! Not a line. No, there is, of course, for example about Hrerek the Giver of the Ring, but this is different. But there is also no about many other figures about whom we know for sure that they were. Or do you think that all the leaders and all the heroes must be mentioned in the sagas?
        It is possible that Rurik is Rorik Friesland. There is nothing about him in the sagas, but in the European chronicles it is quite enough.
        1. Illanatol
          Illanatol 15 January 2021 13: 27
          +2
          The leader who subdued the "Gardarika" - must be obligatory. Such a feat must perpetuate, the Fatherland must know its heroes.
          Well, in history, and not such tricks are. The Mongols did not know anything about their Genghis Khan until the Jesuit fathers enlightened them, "opening" such an epoch-making work as "The Secret Legend".
          Really, intimate ...
          1. Trilobite Master
            15 January 2021 13: 33
            +4
            Quote: Illanatol
            The leader who subdued the "Gardarika" must be obligatory.

            Why would you? They have there in the sagas every third - "king of Gardariki", do you think they have listed everyone? laughing
            The leader had a good skald - there is a good saga. There was no - the saga will be bad and Snorri Sturulson will not reach it in centuries.
            And if indeed Rurik is Rurik of Friesland, in which sagas about us will you be looking?
            1. Illanatol
              Illanatol 16 January 2021 09: 00
              0
              Why would you? They have there in the sagas every third - "king of Gardariki", do you think they have listed everyone?
              And if indeed Rurik is Rurik of Friesland, in which sagas about us will you be looking?


              Isn't it a bit too many "kings of Gardariki"? Where are the misfortunes on all the Novgorods? And why do we only know "Rurik's"? Where are the other visiting gentlemen with their dynasties?
              Should we even take these "fantasy" into account?
              Well, a thousand years from now, future historians might find Game of Thrones credible chronicles.
          2. sniperino
            sniperino 15 January 2021 16: 02
            +2
            Quote: Illanatol
            Such a feat should perpetuate
            It's not even a matter of heroism. He controlled the passage from the Varangians to the Greeks. It is somehow strange not to know with your Jarl, who became the king.
        2. Smoke
          Smoke 16 January 2021 03: 31
          +1
          yes definitely yes. If Rurik was a Norman, then such a hero - the conqueror of Gardariki definitely had to be in the sagas, and even more so, such a glorious and rich Norman ruler of the state, and not some wretched fjord, would probably find his own skald-narrator, don't you agree? But there is not a single line, not a word, not a half-word ... Isn't it very strange?
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 January 2021 10: 47
      +7
      Language will bring to Kiev. And there Zelensky and the grandson of Ivan Evdokimovich Valtsman! Together with other Bandera and Timoshenko they are plotting against Sanskrit, Russian and Hyperborean in their Hebrew! The first is called borscht, and they also say that Rurik was the head of the Wagner PMC, although he, in fact, has nothing to do with the German composer! negative
    3. Fat
      Fat 15 January 2021 10: 59
      +4
      Quote: Illanatol
      You can't judge ethnicity by name

      hi Nicely presented, Anatoly. Parents gave their children nicknames rather than names, and the "secret name" was given to the child only at "initiation" (Volkhov's sacred event, however), not at birth. Very few people knew him, those very named brothers-warriors.
      How do you like this version?
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 15 January 2021 13: 29
        0
        All Slavic names are originally nicknames or titles.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 15 January 2021 10: 52
    +8
    Quote: depressant
    Now let's imagine that you, colleagues, are in a hard frost. Try to articulate "Rochrig".

    A series of articles from Lyudmila Yakovlevna, something like "The influence of climatic factors on semantic and phonetic transformations in onomasiology", is directly requested.
    1. depressant
      depressant 15 January 2021 12: 30
      +6
      Chukchi "Lyudmila Yakovlevna" is not a writer, she is a reader, as well as an admirer and appraiser of other people's talents)))
      As for the climate, then - wow, how winter unfolded in the Moscow region! Frost, - 17. And I sleep under a blanket, otherwise there is not enough oxygen. Scientists say that since the beginning of the last century, the Earth's atmosphere has become thinner by a third. Whether it is true or not, I began to choke constantly. And you, colleague, are trying to encourage me to do additional research work. It won't work)))
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 15 January 2021 13: 07
        +5
        Whether it is true or not, I began to choke constantly
        Maybe the question is not in the thickness of the atmosphere, but somewhere closer and it is worth visiting specialists like a cardiologist?
        1. depressant
          depressant 15 January 2021 13: 28
          +2
          So the attack was on March 12! I remember with fear of its manifestation wassat And I can't believe that I am already sick ... I almost wrote "forever", hehe .. Until the end!
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 15 January 2021 13: 36
            +4
            Modern medicine allows you to live to a ripe old age with many diseases.
            1. depressant
              depressant 15 January 2021 13: 54
              +5
              Are you serious? )))
              You would also write that you can do, say, a heart transplant, as it was done eight times to David Rockefeller. I am not even registered in the clinic. And she is fifty meters away from me. I understand how much modern medicine costs. Relations with her are outside my interests.
      2. Fat
        Fat 15 January 2021 13: 36
        +5
        Lyudmila Yakovlevna! hi
        Well, this is ... You have already described the basics of fur penguin breeding. Study of articulation in conditions of extremely low temperatures in the course of the adjacent piece yes
        1. depressant
          depressant 15 January 2021 14: 00
          +3
          So what remains to be done but not follow the trend set by British scientists? You know, you don’t know - turn in the creative, so it’s not boring! lol
      3. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 15 January 2021 19: 06
        +3
        Lyudmila Yakovlevna, good evening. Let me recommend you: an electric sheet and then at least sleep with an open transom. Already tested for myself.
        There are a great many of these sheets now and at different prices.
        I am stingy and before I buy, I take a long look at something. Already a "prfesor": I have learned a lot and will gladly share information.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 15 January 2021 13: 12
      +7
      Here the main thing is not to lick the iron in the cold, otherwise the articulation will definitely change.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 15 January 2021 13: 20
        +4
        Yes, there is a lot of work here. In addition to temperature factors, one can also consider precipitation, the prevailing wind direction on the routes of constant movement, the influence of insufficient solarization, and much more. Besides, the harvest depended on the weather. Agree that acute hunger affects articulation no less than overeating. And what about the diet?
        Yes, and be sure to consider the presence of fermentation products and their distribution.
      2. depressant
        depressant 15 January 2021 13: 32
        +4
        But it was, how could it be without it! wassat At the age of four, she glued her tongue to something iron in Chukotka, endured a useful experience))) It did not affect articulation - it did not affect intonation, acquired sarcasm.
      3. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 13: 51
        +4
        Here the main thing is not to lick the iron in the cold, otherwise the articulation will definitely change.

        You will now come to an agreement, joker knight, and you will go to retake the Russian language - from the fifth time. tongue And Lyudmila Yakovlevna will stand with a pointer, and beat you on the fingers for undelivered punctuation marks and inconsistency of sentences. laughing
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 15 January 2021 14: 01
          +3
          You shouldn't project your erotic fantasies onto my intellect, sophisticated with venom.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 05
            +4
            to my intellect, sophisticated with venom.

            Get out of class! laughing Diary entry: "I sarcastically disrupted the lesson" tongue
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 15 January 2021 14: 15
              +2
              Tsum beefel, Herr Hauptmann !!! soldier
              "My first teacher,
              My unlawful love! "(C) tongue
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 18
                +2
                My unlawful love! "

                My first love studied at philology ... laughing
                Herr Hauptmann !!!

                So your German was bad too? repeat Hauptmann is written with a capital letter! laughing drinks
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 15 January 2021 14: 26
                  +1
                  Yeah, it is written, but not in Russian transcription. Linguist, damn it! laughing
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 28
                    +1
                    Linguist, damn it!

                    And you are all aesthetics! laughing
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 15 January 2021 14: 39
                      +2
                      And you are all esthetic
                      Not at all. I increase the level of your erudition. laughing
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 50
                        +1
                        Not at all. I increase the level of your erudition.

                        ich möchte dich glücklich machen! tongue
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 15 January 2021 16: 23
              +2
              Most importantly, it's contagious. And there will always be those willing to support.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 16: 41
                +3
                Most importantly, it's contagious. And there will always be those willing to support.

                Sergey, are you talking about aestheticism? By the way, Lyudmila Yakovlevna is out of competition in word usage. However, my sincere respect to her! love
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 15 January 2021 16: 57
                  +2
                  About an excuse to disrupt the lesson or transfer the discussion to another topic.
        2. depressant
          depressant 15 January 2021 14: 12
          +4
          Oh no! Just don't beat your fingers! This is how I never learned to play the piano professionally. Mother sculpted me into a noble maiden, delivered the Red October piano from Leningrad, and so that I could learn the scales and Gedike's sketches, she hired an elderly lady on the recommendation, who began to beat me on the fingers - she had such a teaching method. She did not know that it was impossible with me. Hmmm ...
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 17
            +3
            She did not know that it was impossible with me. Hmmm ...

            To be honest, this is disgusting. I sincerely sympathize with you. sad
            By the way, you can't really beat Anton on the fingers. At least the right hand. repeat
            1. depressant
              depressant 15 January 2021 14: 30
              +2
              Reflexively clenched into a fist and a right blow to the jaw of an unwary person will follow?)))
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 14: 35
                +3
                Reflexively clenched into a fist and a right blow to the jaw of an unwary person will follow?)))

                No with! The man is too good - you need to take care of him, the wicked joker! drinks
      4. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 15 January 2021 15: 10
        +5
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Here the main thing is not to lick the iron in the cold, otherwise the articulation will definitely change.

        Five points Anton, recently just with his wife recalled their childhood experience in this case: who has a water pipe, who has a ski pole ... wassat
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 15 January 2021 15: 13
          +4
          I took an experiment more seriously: a veranda in a kindergarten.
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 15 January 2021 15: 15
            +4
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            I took an experiment more seriously: a veranda in a kindergarten.

            Yes, really seriously, a pipe and a stick, at least home, can be dragged away for warming up, it's more difficult with a veranda ... drinks
            1. depressant
              depressant 15 January 2021 15: 37
              +5
              Yeah ... I wondered how to drag the veranda to thaw, laughed for a long time wassat ))))))
              1. Fat
                Fat 16 January 2021 12: 20
                +1
                Oh yeah!
                I vividly imagined a kindergarten nurse running in one white coat and felt boots on her bare feet, with disheveled hair (the cap was blown off on the way) with a mug of boiling water ... good
                Canvas! Worthy of a master's brush laughing
          2. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 15: 54
            +4
            I took an experiment more seriously: a veranda in a kindergarten.

            ... so what did you say about my fantasies, entertainer? ... repeat
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 15 January 2021 16: 02
              +2
              Oh, just don't pretend to be the last virgin of the Northwest! You might think this has never happened to you
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 16: 05
                +4
                You might think this has never happened to you

                Probably, it happened - why am I, red-haired, to lag behind the others in the knowledge of the world? laughing But with a veranda, perhaps you are the record holder. fellow
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 15 January 2021 16: 12
                  +5
                  Not really. One of my children's friend managed to lick a high-voltage support.
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 16: 15
                    +5
                    One of my childhood buddies managed to lick a high-voltage support

                    Do you have such fanciful things in Polyarnye Zory since childhood? laughing drinks
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 15 January 2021 16: 23
                      +3
                      Most.
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 16: 42
                        +5
                        Most.

                        ... and defiantly, with an unblinking gaze, rolled a poker into a ring ... lol Everything, everything, I got it! stop drinks
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 January 2021 16: 59
                        +4
                        But you sing like songs.
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 17: 01
                        +4
                        "Fi, dad, what a bad bite you have! Identity Vanka from the suburb is tearing his throat! (C)
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 January 2021 17: 27
                        +3
                        “But taxi drivers love me,
                        And they take a drunk home "(c).
                      5. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 17: 30
                        +3
                        "When I get drunk drunk,
                        Then I brake the motor (c)
                      6. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 January 2021 18: 10
                        +2
                        "Take me, cab" (c).
                      7. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 18: 14
                        +2
                        "Carrier, stop across the house,
                        Pokemar on irradiation, I'm fast "(c)
                      8. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 January 2021 18: 45
                        +3
                        “There is no stopping here -
                        And to me: please "(c).
                      9. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 18: 53
                        +3
                        "Stop the music!
                        I ask you, I ask you! "(C)
                      10. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 January 2021 19: 00
                        +3
                        “You are in the eighth row.
                        And the same hall, and the same place ”(c).
                      11. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2021 19: 29
                        +2
                        "Doctor, look if there are any cats in the program?" (FROM)
                      12. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 January 2021 22: 16
                        +1
                        "Oh, how many cats are there in the world" (c).
                    2. depressant
                      depressant 15 January 2021 19: 40
                      +4
                      I hope I won't offend anyone? )))
                      Come on, who has a guitar, an instrument in hand and ...

                      Without a jacket, in one robe,
                      The overcoat is put on the sleeves
                      Warm cap, on cotton wool,
                      So that my head does not hurt.

                      Let me die irrevocably
                      Forever friends, forever friends,
                      But everything is neat so far
                      I will drink, I will drink.

                      While I'm drunk, and I'm always drunk,
                      Nothing will crush me
                      And no power of hell
                      My bliss will not confuse ...

                      wassat )))
                    3. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 15 January 2021 20: 38
                      +3
                      I hope I won't offend anyone?

                      No, this is a normal discordant chorus of bunny boys.
                      But everything is neat so far
                      I will drink, I will drink.

                      So let's drink some more, my young king,
                      A dashing share is assigned to us
                      (Mill)
                    4. depressant
                      depressant 15 January 2021 21: 20
                      +3
                      This song in a slightly different version was regularly sung with the guitar by my classmates. The window of the room in which she lived just overlooked the male building of the dormitory, and I remembered that the passion for chants seized the students for some reason while preparing for the exams. True, everything passed and passed well. Nobody took off. And my memory, in a fit of a strange association with the conversation that took place above, carried me away to episodes that seemed to have gone forever from it. And now Rurik was replaced by the Alexandrian regiment (((( belay ))))
                    5. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 15 January 2021 22: 18
                      +3
                      Exactly. When some boundaries - how good it is to be distracted.

                      Dolce Vita.
                    6. Fat
                      Fat 16 January 2021 04: 26
                      +3
                      Ars longa, vita brevis smile
                    7. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 16 January 2021 07: 14
                      +3
                      “To seem smiling and simple -
                      The highest art in the world ”(c).
                    8. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 16 January 2021 14: 37
                      +2
                      The world's highest art

                      He was pleasant, besides a poet ... drinks
                    9. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 16 January 2021 14: 43
                      +2
                      "It's not nothing,
                      What a lot of torment
                      Bring the broken
                      And deceitful gestures ”(c).
                    10. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 16 January 2021 14: 45
                      +2
                      And the trees, like horsemen, gathered in our garden ...
                    11. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 16 January 2021 14: 47
                      +2
                      "Sweetheart, sweetheart, funny fool" (c).
                    12. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 16 January 2021 15: 00
                      +2
                      "Sweetheart, sweetheart, funny fool" (c).

                      I write, I read without the lamp,
                      And the sleeping masses are clear
                      Deserted streets, and bright
                      Admiralty Needle
                    13. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 16 January 2021 15: 13
                      +2
                      “In the village, God does not live in corners,
                      As the scoffers think, but everywhere ”(c).
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 15 January 2021 22: 16
    +3
    As you know, they carry water to the offended.

    "We mow the magic tryn grass" (c).
  • sniperino
    sniperino 15 January 2021 16: 18
    +2
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    seriously approached the experiment
    And I never remembered what then won in me: distrust that the tongue can stick to the gland or interest, how it will be.
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 15 January 2021 12: 32
    +6
    Who cares who Rurik was, if he was a Norman, then he did not impose anything ... neither language, nor gods, nor customs ... If the Baltic Slavs are the same ... That's why the dynasty was established ..
    1. Illanatol
      Illanatol 15 January 2021 13: 35
      0
      Strange Norman. In Western Europe, the Normans behaved differently, much tougher towards the locals.
      In Britain, even the days of the week were named after the Scandinavian gods. Obviously, they did their best.
      Rurik was a Varangian. The Varangians are not a people, an ethnos, but a social group functioning according to the laws of "military democracy". Class, caste, if you like. Later they will be called "Cossacks."
      However, this also applies to the Vikings. Not all Scandinavians have the privilege of becoming Vikings.
      1. sniperino
        sniperino 15 January 2021 16: 31
        +1
        Quote: Illanatol
        Later they would be called "Cossacks".
        Now they will prove to you that the Cossacks are much older than the Vikings. Evgraf Savelyev right in the crown.
  • sevryuk
    sevryuk 15 January 2021 14: 02
    +2
    "... one of the images of which was a falcon) or the West Slavic" Rerik "(actually, a falcon)".

    This is incorrect and is proved by the fact that all subsequent princes had variants of the "coat of arms" that did not look like a falcon. Most likely, in his case, we are talking about the Khazar tamga.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 15 January 2021 14: 08
    +7
    I can only say one thing, what a great fellow Mikhail ... All authors would work at this level!
    1. Trilobite Master
      15 January 2021 18: 00
      +4
      Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich.
      To be honest, it's not profitable to write like this. It takes a lot of time, but they still read more of those who write about super-Slavs and mega-Aryans. To withstand competition with such authors, adhering to at least some scientific outline will not work, even burst. The market is fucking demand and supply dictates. Therefore, it is rare. Well, the New Year holidays were not in vain, and that's good.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 15 January 2021 18: 26
        +4
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Well, the New Year holidays were not in vain, and that's good.

        Well, you know, the hyena once reproached the lioness that she gives birth to only one cub, and she, the hyena - many. But I am giving birth to a lion! The lioness answered!
        1. Trilobite Master
          15 January 2021 18: 30
          +4
          I probably give birth to badgers. smile Something in between, between noble cats and marmots. smile He lagged behind the crows, but to the pavas ... far away. laughing
  • Yura
    Yura 15 January 2021 15: 03
    +2
    Reading your article, I remembered how once, after reading an article on the same topic, I thought, what if we look at the issue from a different angle, not related to the binding of this name to a specific Rurik, just find a similar surname of a famous well-born person, whose pedigree probably exists and for sure there is an etymology of names. The first thing that came to Roerich's mind was Nicholas, and then one of the articles on the topic - "About the genealogy of N. Roerich and the etymology of the names Rurik - Roerik - Roerich" http://lebendige-ethik.net/index.php/rerikhovedenie/ 150-roerich-rjurik-rurik Just a lot of information.
  • zvan
    zvan 15 January 2021 16: 20
    +5
    Research by geneticists has shown that Rurik's descendants are of Scandinavian origin - specifically the Swedish province of Uppsala. The question is closed! Further, foaming at the mouth, one can prove at least the African passing of Rurik, but you cannot argue against the facts!
    1. Smoke
      Smoke 16 January 2021 03: 23
      +1
      and you, my friend, are very narrow-minded, however)) once you make your conclusions on the basis of genetic research, the result of which in this case a priori has an extremely high error and huge variability.
    2. SVD68
      SVD68 16 January 2021 07: 54
      0
      And Klesov says that such genes are not typical for the inhabitants of Sweden, but are common on the Polish coast of the Baltic Sea.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 15 January 2021 17: 35
    +7
    Michael, good afternoon. Thank you three times
    1) the work gives a lot of information and is presented in a way that is accessible to a hedgehog.
    2) it is nice that there is an alternative: Samsonov and Kharluzhny. They mostly have a flurry of empty emotions.
    3) so correctly stated that colleague Bar does not mind.
  • yaglon
    yaglon 15 January 2021 20: 06
    +1
    And most of all I like the theory that Rurik had a mixed origin. By the way, she easily befriends Normanists with anti-Normanists. Rörik, after all, is the brother or nephew of Harald Klak, that is, according to Pope Sköldung, a direct descendant of Odin) And why shouldn't he have a daughter of Gostomysl (obodritsky) as a mother? Then everything turns out logically. And why Rorik sailed to Ladoga and Priilmenye for the "inheritance", and not somewhere in Danelag. If we assume (confirmed archaeologically) that the Polabian Slavs played a big role in the colonization of Ladoga and Priilmenye, then everything falls into place. Then Hroerekr turns out to be just a Slavodan, 50 to 50. A descendant of Odin and Perun. In general, if you dig into history, it turns out that the Polabians and the Danes were friends for many centuries, the Danes sent the Polabian squads many times to help against German Christianization, which is not surprising - they and they were pagans then, and the border then lay not between national tribes, but on a religious basis.
  • SVD68
    SVD68 15 January 2021 20: 26
    +1
    Was there a Rurik?
    Why is it decided that the calling of Rurik is a real event, and not an invention to legitimize the power of the descendants of Igor the Ancient?
    On the one hand, the story of Rurik's vocation is very reminiscent of the story of Hengist's vocation. On the other hand, Oleg justifies his legitimacy by the fact that he is with the young Igor ... and remains the ruler until his death.
    It is very similar to the creation of a legend about the origin from some famous person. From Caesar, from Christ, etc. And in this sense, Rurik may well be Khrerik. A legendary but not real ancestor.
    1. yaglon
      yaglon 15 January 2021 20: 41
      +3
      Igor cannot be the son of Rurik, do you agree? The dates are too different, jumped over 2 generations. The most mysterious figure is not Rurik, but Oleg. Actually, it was he who founded the state. I have my own theory on this matter. An even more mysterious figure is Olga, but here we can only throw up our hands, despite all her magical epic character - she is the only one 100% real, she was received by the Byzantine emperor.
      1. SVD68
        SVD68 16 January 2021 11: 36
        +1
        Quote: yaglon
        Igor cannot be the son of Rurik, do you agree? Dates are too different, skipped 2 generations

        I agree. Actually because of this and due to the fact that Oleg allegedly first refers to the legitimate ruler - the son of Rurik, and then forgets about this legal ruler forever, I believe that Rurik from the Tale of Bygone Years is not a real person, but a legendary one. Those. the real person is attributed to affairs that he did not commit. Like, for example, King Arthur or Vladimir Krasno Solnyshko from epics. And the real Rurik may well be Khrerik of Jutland, but he was not called to Russia and he did not rule in Russia.
        1. yaglon
          yaglon 18 January 2021 19: 56
          0
          I think that in this case 2 trips prevail in science. The 1st considers all the persons mentioned in the chronicles and legends, but unreliably confirmed, persons, non-existent. The 2nd approach still gives them the right to real life - to all legendary characters - from Jesus to Arthur and Oleg. It is clear that little can be proved or disproved here.
      2. D.Yu.
        D.Yu. 18 January 2021 22: 34
        0
        Your thoughts are absolutely correct! It's hard to think, but damn interesting. There are much more mysteries in the chronicle of Nestor: both Igor and Olga's boat ride, and the invitation of an old woman to marry by someone who does not know, and Igor's irrepressible greed, etc. etc.
        If you are interested not just to chat, but to start a serious search, write:
        [email protected]
      3. D.Yu.
        D.Yu. 18 January 2021 23: 25
        0
        [/ quote] [quote = yaglon] Olga, but here we can only throw up our hands, despite all her magical epic - she is the only one 100%

        Igor is mentioned by the Greeks: Tzimiskes explained to Svyatoslav that dad had finished badly, so that his son would also clean up as soon as possible.
        Others, yes, are not mentioned by name, but a comparison of the facts emerges.
  • Smoke
    Smoke 16 January 2021 03: 21
    -1
    The whole article is characterized by one message - it is customary for our gentlemen to take their word for it ..)) The name Rurik cannot be derived from Rarog (Rerik) just because I said so - the whole message of the article ... Sorry, not convinced, let's get full calculations on research by linguists, people should not be considered fools - who needs them to figure it out.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 16 January 2021 03: 31
      +2
      Quote: Smoke
      Sorry not convinced, let's get full calculations on the research of linguists,

      And this ... How was it ... One-eyed one was given meat ... They chopped off the spine and took out the lungs. Like wings ...
      1. Smoke
        Smoke 16 January 2021 12: 14
        +1
        Not figs was your Odin old to remember
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 16 January 2021 14: 39
        +2
        The spine was chopped off and the lungs were taken out. Like wings ...

        It seems like one case, and that is not very well proven. It was called, EMNIP, "bloody eagle" ... what
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 16 January 2021 16: 03
          +2
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          It seems like one case, and that is not very well proven. It was called, EMNIP, "bloody eagle" ...

          Two cases. One was cut through the spine and the lungs were taken out, and in the second, an eagle was drawn on its back.
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol 16 January 2021 08: 51
    +1
    [/ quote] They will now prove to you that the Cossacks are much older than the Vikings. [/ quote]
    If you call the ancient Cossacks "royal Scythians" or "Sarmatians" - maybe I will agree.
    It's not about the name, but about the essence. The formation of such social groups was a completely predictable reaction to social and property stratification during the formation of the feudal system. This happened not only with us. Circassians, ghoulams, other "people of long will."
  • Lewww
    Lewww 16 January 2021 14: 08
    +1
    as well as "falcon motives" in the symbolism of Rurik, are precisely the arguments confirming the main thesis - the Slavic origin of Rurik.
    I don't understand why even try to establish the nationality of an epic character?
    It's like trying to prove which village Ilya Muromets was from
  • Shahno
    Shahno 16 January 2021 14: 47
    +1
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Quote: Nazar
    And where in the Scandinavian sources is there even a line about Rurik?

    Imagine - no! Not a line. No, there is, of course, for example about Hrerek the Giver of the Ring, but this is different. But there is also no about many other figures about whom we know for sure that they were. Or do you think that all the leaders and all the heroes must be mentioned in the sagas?
    It is possible that Rurik is Rorik Friesland. There is nothing about him in the sagas, but in the European chronicles it is quite enough.

    It's just, which is paradoxical ... there is no Rurik .. And there are traces of this myth.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 17 January 2021 02: 09
    +1
    Quote: Korsar4
    And the figure of Rurik is still legendary for us.

    Just because the descendants of the dynasty are called "Rurikovichs?" Half of which genetically are not Rurik, in addition, it is not known just which one - Scandinavian or Slavic?
    For, what was so decisive for Russia that Rurik himself did? The name "Novgorod", where he stood with his squad, testifies that the city was "new" in those days. Compared to Kiev, Ladoga or Staraya Russa.
    Here is Oleg the Prophet, from Staraya Russa - he made it specifically, including the first Rurikovich he erected on the Kiev Table, on a non-vacant one, it should be noted!
    Where is our doryuric history? She was before Rurik? Why does everyone pretend that it was not?
  • kig
    kig 17 January 2021 03: 28
    0
    Yes ....... There are difficulties with the historical truth.
  • Cure72
    Cure72 17 January 2021 16: 38
    0
    Michael, thank you very much! Informative .
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 26 January 2021 14: 03
      -1
      Quote: Cure72
      Michael, thank you very much! Informative .

      Cognitive what? Article? Only that which is irrefutable is cognitive. Everything else is entertaining.
  • D.Yu.
    D.Yu. 18 January 2021 23: 18
    0
    Quote: Illanatol
    Novgorod means "new city".
    If there is a new city, then there must be an old city, right?
    Where is he?

    Bravo! Further thought why the "Old Town" does not work - is it?
  • tank64rus