The story of the "meeting" of the Soviet TB-3 bombers with the German "Messerschmitts" in June 1941

One of the variants of Soviet heavy bombers during the Great Patriotic War was the TB-3. These aircraft, which were produced at the enterprises of Moscow and Voronezh, began to operate in 1932. The production of TB-3 was completed even before the beginning of the Second World War - in 1937. The decision to discontinue the production of this bomber was made due to the fact that it was already outdated by that time. However, this did not prevent its combat use during the war years.

In journalistic and fiction literature there are many works about the use of these bombers.

In the plot of the "Archival Revolution" Mikhail Timin raises a question related to the battle that took place at the very beginning of the Great Patriotic War - June 30, 1941. We are talking about a meeting in the sky of Soviet heavy bombers TB-3 with German "Messers" ("Messerschmitts"). The TacticMedia channel presents an analysis of that fight, as well as a reference to the fight, made by the writer Konstantin Simonov in his novel "The Living and the Dead".

From the material, you can learn about how the search for the pilots, who were the prototypes of the heroes of this wonderful novel, was carried out. It also tells about how the search work ended.

Narration from Mikhail Timin:

Comments

[bessmertniy]

As a child, one of my favorite books was "Fighters Enter the Battle". There was an episode when I-16s went out to escort these "slugs". And they could not reliably protect. "Ishachki" themselves were rather weak against the "Messers", in many ways they were inferior to them, but they also learned how to shoot them down. The pilots who succeeded were real heroes.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: bessmertniy

but also learned to knock them down. The pilots who succeeded were real heroes.

Heroism is not enough here, and skill is also required! And it was.

[Insurgent]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Heroism is not enough here, and skill is also required!

One thing, in total with the other, multiplied by dedication and dedication, added up to the victorious May 1945 ...

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Insurgent

One thing, in total with the other, multiplied by dedication and dedication, added up to the victorious May 1945 ...

[Vladimir_2U]

"Torpedo Bombers" is a very strong and heavy film.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Torpedo Bombers is a very strong and heavy film.

I think one of the best and most realistic. I also remember "Baltic Sky".

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Stroporez

I also remember "Baltic Sky".

A great movie! I watched it as a mature person, on DVD, and was impressed despite the many watched and very spectacular more modern films. And then I read the book, but in the film I was not at all disappointed, unlike most film adaptations of other books. I'm waiting for a film about L. Litvyak from Shallope.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

but in the film he was not at all disappointed, unlike most film adaptations.

"The Living and the Dead" is certainly a masterpiece!
In my childhood and adolescence, I re-read many books and had a lot of conversations with veterans, and I still think how they could withstand all this, because in reality they are Supermen made of iron.
Eternal Glory to them!

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I'm waiting for a film about L. Litvyak from Shallope.

still? This figure on his YouTube channel puffs the trusting public into how he “makes a film about Litvyak” for two years now, God forbid. Monetizes the success of "Panfilovites".
I personally do not believe a fig that someone will shoot a film, even remotely close in strength to "Torpedo Bombers" and "Old Men". Computer coloring, superimposed on fufly scripts, has already filled the mouth. And in order to admire real planes "live" and not in numbers, I turn on "Battle of Britain" 1969.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

I personally do not believe a fig that someone will shoot a film, even remotely close in strength to "Torpedo Bombers" and "Old Men".

I agree, "They fought for the Motherland" is no longer possible to repeat even approximately, the whole remake is a solid splint with a stupid plot.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Stroporez

"They fought for the Motherland" to repeat even approximately

Yes, but I still talked about "airplane" cinema. It generally requires a separate directorial skill.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Yes, but I still talked about "airplane" cinema. It generally requires a separate directorial skill.

Well, here are definitely torpedo bombers !!!

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

... Well, here are definitely torpedo bombers !!!

+ Chronicle of a dive bomber

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

+ Chronicle of a dive bomber

Another great movie!
There was also a film about the women's regiment, in my opinion "In the sky" night witches "

[Konnick]

And I had a boss, the political officer played in the torpedo bombers. He really was a political officer in the part where the film was filmed.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

include the 1969 Battle of Britain.

Thanks for the tip, I'm not expecting anything special, but if the level "Top gun" "Torah! Torah! Torah!" then it may come.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

how he "makes a film about Litvyak" already, God forbid, two years. Monetizes the success of "Panfilovites"

"Panfilov's 28" was also removed not in a year, from the 2013 promo video to the premiere in 2016, count yourself.
About the new film: according to rumors, "riveters" in the already filmed material saw the wrong position of either the compass, or the artificial horizon, and the material went for redrawing or reshooting.

[Aviator_]

I watched Shaliope's new video about Litvyak, I wonder if they removed the mistake with shooting on a bend, when the smoke from the tracers does not go sideways, as in real shots?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

include the 1969 Battle of Britain.

Wow, the promo went well.

[Alanart]

Well, "Torpedo bombers" will definitely not take off, because like a commercial cinema, such a film has no prospects. I watched it in deep childhood, but I still remember the attack of the pilot who was burning alive. Nobody will go to a movie like that. You need to drive on this, not for money, but to be remembered.
And vanilla like 'Old Men' is very even.

[lyrics]

I think so too. In modern films there is no atmosphere of war, no feeling of the state of inevitability of possible death.

[gurzuf]

Also "And the places here are quiet"

[gjkrjdybr50]

"The dawns here are quiet."

[gurzuf]

It is "A Places Here Are Quiet", and "Dawns" is an independent c / f.

[mvg]

"Torpedo bombers"

Have you natorped a lot? Are there big wins? They would shoot what was in reality, the film would be noticeably more boring.
Moderate jingoistic patriotism is needed for young immature brains. But the truth is still better.
PS: Even on normal British and US planes, there was little that worked.
For reference, the United States produced 89 thousand tanks, 200+ aircraft (and this is not Po-000) for the allies, 2 vehicles got to the USSR (410 times more than produced in the Union), 000% luminium, 1,5% explosives, 53% copper, etc.
And all the same, it was not the allies who won, but the Russians ... By the way, in 1963 Zhukov said this publicly and fell out of favor.

[Moore]

Quote: mvg

Have you nored a lot? Are there big wins?

Many, not many, but made their contribution to the Victory.
Aircraft type
Fleets

KBF SF BSF Total
IL-2 167 39 127 294
A-20 98 21 41 160
Pe-2, Pe-3 68 16 64 148
DB-3, IL-4 20 14 64 94
Pe-8 3 - - 3
MBR-2 3 - 18 21
Sat 1 3 24 28
Ar-2 1 - - 1
I- 153 1 - 4 5
MDR-6 1 - - 1
La-5 1 - - 1
R-40 - 39 - 39
Hampden-3-3
R-39 - 3 - 3
B-25 - - 5 5
GTS - - 1 1
I-16 - - 2 2
R-10 - - 2 2
Yak-9 - - 4 4
The plate gets confused, but you can understand.

Quote: mvg

For reference, the United States produced 89 thousand tanks, 200+ aircraft (and this is not Po-000) for the allies, 2 vehicles got to the USSR (410 times more than produced in the Union), 000% luminium, 1,5% explosives, 53% copper, etc.
And all the same, it was not the allies who won, but the Russians ... By the way, in 1963 Zhukov said this publicly and fell out of favor.

Since when is victory determined by the amount of iron produced? From this point of view, Czechoslovakia then almost beat Germany in 39th.
By the way, aircraft / tanks from the USA and GB were delivered to the USSR by 11,7 / 17,6% of those produced in the USSR. But we operate with convenient numbers, right? And that the USSR paid off for this allied spiritual impulse with its gold - that's so, trifles.
As for Zhukov. He fell into "disfavor" for different reasons and at different times. They were the times then.
And that the film would be more boring .. So war is generally not a very funny thing ... Drabkina google and read ...

[mvg]

Since when is victory determined by the amount of iron produced?

Because tanks, rifles, shells are made of this "iron", 40% of American sugar and stews are fed to soldiers, American machines make turret runs on the "legendary" T-34-85, without them there was nothing, and so on.

By the way, aircraft / tanks from the USA and GB were delivered to the USSR by 11,7 / 17,6% of those produced in the USSR.

If you count by pieces, then yes, but in terms of quality, the Soviet Union did not make something similar to a bomber until the end of the war. The USA, on average, dumped 27000+ tons / month on the Reich. These are 54000 Pe-2 sorties. At the same time, they organized a naval blockade of Germany and deprived it of oil and other traffic flow.
PPPS: Well, for the article about the "legendary TB-3" and torpedo bombers. So this is a ready-made death for 8 crew members. And the battle is indicative, when 8 Pe-2 attacked a couple of German minesweepers in the Baltic, losing two machines and not producing anything. At VO there was an analysis.
But it was the Union that won. And the allies helped a little, more infections, themselves "entered" into the war only in 44. And before that Maldives and Fiji

[akarfoxhound]

Well, yes, and the Germans and the minke whales have every bomb on target, yeah ... And all attacks on ships are successful, and even without losses! Exactly!
Oil "allies" you say blocked in Germany? What good fellows! For some reason, I remember the memories of the same Vasily Reshetnikov, when he "transit" at the Poltava airfield in 44 and put an imported nose into the map. And there, on the map, the zones are red (and Vasil Vasilievich knew Germany like the back of his 5 fingers, after all, he ironed it since 41). And these are German factories "bans" are highlighted, news for a lover of mattress, right? Because there their money is invested and cannot be touched! I will warn you in advance about Reshetnikov's commitment, leave a possible thought to yourself. Better not read the book of flight memories, as the pilot say, he was the commander-in-chief of YES for about 10 years, he went through the whole war, participated in the formation of YES, there are episodes where he is our bungling in military construction before the Second World War and after - and far and wide (for oil your loveamerican heart), there is where it describes the work of people that really takes pride in the country.
And yet, in open sources there are "stories", for example, how everyone's beloved industrial worker Henry Ford respected Adolfushka very much, gave a money of 40 pieces of greens for his birthday annually, than he could help with his factories. Rubber, on which the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe wheels were spinning, was also mattress and was supplied right before the 44th landing in Normandy. In general, your pets played dirty tricks and blocked the nemchura with all their might!
Py.Sy. have you met Jehovah's Witnesses? It reminds me, not everything was so one-sided / perpendicular, as you and your opponents expose. And read Vasilich "307 sorties", a very smart book, you will not regret

[ccsr]

Quote: akarfoxhound

And there, on the map, the zones are red (and Vasil Vasilievich knew Germany like the back of his 5 fingers, after all, he ironed it since 41). And these are German factories "bans" are highlighted, news for a lover of mattresses, right? Because there their money is invested and cannot be touched! I will warn you in advance about Reshetnikov's commitment, leave a possible thought to yourself. Better not read the book of flight memories, as the pilot say, he was the commander-in-chief of the DA for about 10 years, went through the whole war, participated in the formation of the DA,

If you are interested in aviation, then I recommend the book by I.I. Lezzhov, he is a very famous person in military intelligence. Here is what he writes about how the Americans "helped" us to destroy the military potential of Germany

[akarfoxhound]

I have not read II Lezzhov, thank you!

[ccsr]

Quote: akarfoxhound

I have not read II Lezzhov, thank you!

You will read it, you will not regret it, because Lezzhov enjoyed a well-deserved prestige among the veterans of the GRU, and this is like a quality mark for memoir literature.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: akarfoxhound

And read Vasilich "307 sorties", a very smart book, you will not regret

And the memoirs of Golovanov, the head of the ADD, are even better.

[Moore]

Quote: akarfoxhound

And yet, there are "stories" in open sources, for example, how the beloved production worker Henry Ford respected Adolfushka very much

It was not only Ford that was lit up there.
In the 30s, about 60 branches of American corporations operated in Germany, and at least 300 Nazi enterprises were controlled because of a puddle.
And the cherry on top is the decree of the President of the United States of December 13, 1941, which allowed such transactions, doing business with enemy companies, unless there was a special ban from the American Treasury Department.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Moore

And the cherry on top is the US presidential decree of December 13, 1941, which allowed such transactions, doing business with enemy companies.

Have you read this "Decree" yourself? Give a link to the text? To the original text, and not interpretations of the network asses that carry this someone thrown into the Internet get on well.
Thank you in advance.

[Moore]

Do you own Anglom? Google Extensions Executive Order 8389. Good luck.

[Timofey Astakhov]

It was not only Ford that was lit up there.
In the 30s, about 60 branches of American corporations operated in Germany, and at least 300 Nazi enterprises were controlled because of a puddle.
And the cherry on top is the US presidential decree of December 13, 1941

as I understand it, and here the source is - a book by Charles Hyam "Trade with the Enemy", am I guessing?

[akarfoxhound]

To make you laugh, a person must be in the subject, I do not observe this phenomenon in an opponent.
For development - the commander of the KDA V.V.Reshetnikov was in the 70s, he started the war in the Baltic on June 22, 1941 as the commander of the Il-4 in ADD, all his life and having served until retirement in the "long-range". About how your favorites influenced the German military industry, dropping tons of bombs on a peasant coptup standing alone in the far side - I will not repeat, read it again. (still framed Dresden remember, fit )
Reshetnikov is now 101 years old, God will give everyone to live up to his age and have at this age the same clarity of mind and the speed of clear, forceful speech, and he wrote at least 30 years ago. As I understand it, you have not read our normal memoirs, except for Politizdat and Litgiz, have you? And the "Blond Knight of the Reich" for Comrade Hartman and Dive Bomber W. Rudel came to you.
Well, on account of Vasil Vasilich's memoirs, his words are against your opinion that this is all p-w, then you, my dear, respectfully, the importance of opinion and its weight in the aviation world, do not even stand laces from his flying boots.

[Timofey Astakhov]

And yet, there are "stories" in open sources, for example, how everyone's favorite production worker, Henry Ford, respected Adolfushka very much;

source? Could you be quoting Charles our Hyam?

[Moore]

Quote: mvg

American machines make turret runs on the "legendary" T-34-85, there was nothing without them, and so on.

So I say: the Czechs in 1939 had cannabis, and iron, and machines. This means that they won outright against the sausages - these even had no ammunition for guns in their warehouses - only in units.
About t-34-85. Paid for the machines with Soviet gold. As well as for GAZ, for example. From this, the value of the T-34-85 has become less in comparison with, for example, "Sherman"? Reading D. Loza "Tankman on a foreign car". And yes, shovel welding using the Paton method cannot be compared with the democratic bolts that attached the frontal part to the overhead line at the "miracle" of American tank building. It's even inconvenient to talk about the M3.

Quote: mvg

in terms of quality, so in the Union they did not do something similar to a bomber until the end of the war. The USA, on average, dumped 27000+ tons / month on the Reich. These are 54000 Pe-2 sorties.

Why compare warm to green? The Pe-2 is not a long-range bomber. Comparing it just right with the A-20, and that is much more difficult, not to mention the B-25. Tu-2 was also inferior to them, of course, but not critical.
Summary: it is not tanks with airplanes that win, not machines with cannabis, but peoples, appropriately motivated and organized.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

But in such a delicate topic it is necessary to separate facts from politics. No one fought for the USSR, and basically our country broke the back of fascism. You should not either underestimate or exaggerate the help of the allies, And you should not cry and be indignant that we paid for Lend-Lease in gold - it was not so.

[mvg]

and basically our country broke the back of fascism

The Red Army showed the ridge in 41, when the Reich was fresh. When millions were surrendered. At the same time, having a multiple advantage in the BTT and the Air Force. Not qualitatively, but numerically.
Without the support of the allies, the USSR would not exist. Win a duel against Germany without a chance.
PS: It's bitter, but true. You can remember the fresh Halkin Gol and Finland. Only with sober eyes.

[ccsr]

Quote: mvg

For reference, the United States produced 89 tanks, 200+ aircraft (and this is not Po-000) for the allies, 410 cars got into the USSR (1,5 times more than produced in the Union),

Maybe you shouldn't lie so primitively?

In total, 14 126 American and 4174 British aircraft entered the USSR under Lend-Lease, of which about 8 thousand were flown from Alaska, and the rest were delivered by sea from Great Britain to Murmansk

Do not manipulate numbers like a juggler ...

[mvg]

Maybe you shouldn't lie so primitively?

Make arguments, sufferer. Miracle patriot ... Too lazy to click a couple of times?
20000 Katyushas on the Studerrah and 600 units on the ZiS-6 ... and don't compare the Russian / Soviet auto industry with the Western one.
This is exactly what you often draw in the comments I get on, ready

[ccsr]

Quote: mvg

20000 Katyushas on Studerrah and 600 units on ZiS-6 ...

And still 410 doesn't work, so don't lie. Yes, and planes can be combined with Studebakers only in fairy tales or with lies.

[mvg]

And still 410 doesn't work

Links to give or are not friends with the calculator ??? Do not hesitate, I will help. And we will count the matsacycles separately. 409 thousand officially.

[ccsr]

Quote: mvg

409 thousand officially.

Flies with cutlets?

[mvg]

Look for flies with leftover cutlets in your refrigerator, if there is one. And for 0,5 million cars, they wrote VO.
There is such a thing - an Internet ... there is a tool - a mouse. Learn to use.
PS: Drive away the flies, there are folk ways, there is a miracle glue, and, at the extreme, cover the cutlets. Well, read that thread, except for the zombie box.

[andrew42]

410 aircraft! And of course 000 suede jackets Shpak. At this rate, on the next call, you will have 3 million Americans deployed to the Eastern Front.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: mvg

Have you natorped a lot? Are there big wins? They would shoot what was in reality, the film would be noticeably more boring.

Why the hell, then, in general, feature films on a military theme? The film is about people, not about torpedo shooting. If they started to shoot an "honest" movie, say, about Marinesco, then it would really be the most boring pulp about a rather gray and unremarkable commander, whose star rose and went down during the agony of the Kriegsmarine. Would you watch this? Personally, I am not. But now they removed the UG "First after God", where the ugly commander shoots the German destroyers from a deck gun.

Quote: mvg

But the truth is still better.

no one argues with this, but traditionally it does not apply to filmmakers. I think the problem is not in the proportions of truth and fiction in feature films. The problem is talented presentation.

[mvg]

Why the hell, then, in general, feature films on a military theme?

Do not confuse cartoons and reality.
You haven't watched The Fighters? By chance? The director needs to shoot porn, not war films.
There are also normal films. Which rationally divide both truth and untruth and people are not forgotten.

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

If they started to shoot an "honest" movie, say, about Marinesco, then it would really be the most boring pulp about a rather gray and not outstanding commander

Is Marinesco something "boring"? Yes, such a thriller can be made about him - Hollywood will cry with laughter! Zoshchenko is resting.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: pmkemcity

Yes, such a thriller can be made about him - Hollywood will cry with laughter! Zoshchenko is resting.

Humor appreciated) Like, "our answer" to this masterpiece?

[Igor Kobernik]

Below you have already been answered ... Not "for the allies" 89 thousand tanks, but TOTAL ... Taking into account the actual American needs ... Use reliable sources ...

[mvg]

Not "for the allies" 89 thousand tanks, but TOTAL.

Well, at least take a calculator ... it was found in 40 seconds.
And "my quote from the commentary", took from the site norms "
https://topwar.ru/161140-tanki-ssha-perioda-vtoroj-mirovoj-vojny.html

[Viktor Sergeev]

How pleasant it is to lick the gentlemen? The soldiers won, and there is no need to admire the country that did a lot for the development of the German war industry and the embezzlement of Hitler.

[pmkemcity]

Quote: mvg

It was not the allies who won, but the Russians ... By the way, in 1963 Zhukov said this publicly and fell out of favor.

Did you decide to become marshals the same? Why is this chatter? Lend-Lease's contribution to the war economy is 4%. And how much are the lives of 20 million Soviet citizens worth?
And how many "natorpedirovali" you can search for information. For example, ask how many transports from the northern convoys were lost in the control zone of the Allied fleet and how many died in the control zone of the Northern Fleet, consisting of armed scows - you will immediately understand who fought and who traded in "luminium".

[gjkrjdybr50]

You should shut up, "history connoisseur". Zadolbal with his groan. Yes, our grandfathers and fathers won. Does it bother you? Contact the amerovskoe embassy, ​​there your strained will be removed with green paper. Why the hell are you blurring on a military resource? Did he even serve?

[The leader of the Redskins]

In one of my articles, I recounted the memories of my grandfather, when he and his sister saw how a couple of "Messers" over their village, in three passes, filled up three uncovered TB 3, going to bomb the railway junction.
As in an exercise or a training session ...

[Sergey Sfiedu]

They were mostly YES. There would be at least ShKAS, m. more chances were .... although the end is still the same.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

They were mostly YES. At least there would be ShKAS

there were ShKAS in shielded turrets. During the war, even the UBT was stuck. It seems that they even managed to put a turret with a ShVAK on some vehicles. Before the war, a ball system with an erlikon was tested, but unsuccessfully.

[89268170588]

An example of Safonov. The British who served in the north called him "The great pilot of his time." He began to fight on the I-16. There was an episode in September 41. He with 7 planes entered the battle against 52. Ours shot down 13 and returned without loss.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: bessmertniy

As a child, one of my favorite books was "Fighters Enter the Battle"

Great book! When I first watched the film "The Living and the Dead", the episode with the TBs was engraved in my memory for life ...

[andrew42]

There was another heartbreaking moment in The Living and the Dead. When an officer-tanker (in my opinion Efremov the senior played the role) almost crying said to the selected pilot who demanded a rifle: "You are my falcon! (Jabbing his hand into the sky) Go there! Fight there!" The sky of 1941 was scary.

[Skyscream]

Most of the Luftwaffe aircraft on the Eastern Front in 1941. was shot down by Ishaks. There were almost no other new fighters.

[KERMET]

There were also new, but smaller losses were suffered by the units armed with the I-16 and I-153. New aircraft were undeveloped pilots, and possibly had numerous defects inherent in the beginning of production.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

I read that back in 1942 there were initiatives from the military to restore the production of "donkey". He seems to be very fond of the pilots of the pre-war generation.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Everything was according to one scenario: Messers quickly attack and leave at speed, I16 has one chance: to be the first to see, turn around and head-on, if they had time, got a chance to knock down the attack.

[Magog_]

As the "propagandists from history" tell us today, "we as we could delayed the time of the inevitable war with Nazism in order to better prepare for it," and so on. But in reality they received a "surprise attack" and a complete inability of our army and country to conduct a successful defensive war. As it turned out, the political and military leadership of the USSR did not even plan to prepare for defense ... Hence all the heroic and "firefighting" forced measures on our part already during the military campaign that had begun. The situation with the use, in particular, of heavy TB-3s in operations unusual for this type of bombers, is no exception. As for the I-16 aircraft, the statistics of air battles showed that the best indicators of air victories at the beginning of the war were in those regiments of our fighter aviation, where the level of rearmament for more modern aircraft was lower - this is such a paradox!

[210ox]

By the way, these TB3s operated throughout the Second World War, though after the spring of 42 as transport workers.

[Cyril G ...]

Like night bombers back in 1943

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: 210ox

By the way, these TB3s operated throughout the Second World War, though after the spring of 42 as transport workers.

Well, it's not for nothing that three TB-3s were included in the Victory Parade air wing. Which, unfortunately, did not take place due to the weather, as you know.

[ccsr]

Quote: 210ox

By the way, these TB3s operated throughout the Second World War, though after the spring of 42 as transport workers.

According to our history, the TB-3 was already excluded from the bomber aviation in 1939 and was transferred for military transport needs, including for servicing the airborne corps being formed.
So all the bombing missions with these planes were improvisation, and by and large came simply from despair. That is why we lost them so easily at the beginning of the war, until the realization came that this plane was not suitable for bombing.
I think that to some extent, it was Simonov's work that played a big role in glorifying the use of TB-3 at the beginning of the war for bombing. If the war had developed differently and less tragically at the beginning, then those who sent the crews of these slow-moving vehicles to certain death would most likely have been brought to trial.

[210ox]

One of the mass uses of this aircraft occurred at the beginning of 42, in the Yazemsk airborne operation. Then the plan to surround the Nazis near Vyazma did not work out. Efremov's army died, Belov's horsemen were able to escape, and the paratroopers were thrown in different places. They got a blow on Dorogobuzh, and then they became the backbone of the partisans in the Smolensk region.

[DrEng527]

Quote: ccsr

and transferred for military transport needs,

there was also Vakhmistrov's circus, which proved to be quite successful ...

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

TB-3 already in 1939 was excluded from the bomber aviation ...
So all the bombing missions with these planes were improvisation,

Four TBAP in the western direction, equipped with TB-3. At least two of them were full-fledged bomber regiments - with a supply of bombs prepared by the crews, with vehicles with the appropriate functionality.
I would not call the bombing of objects in Poland on the third day of the war "improvisation". But the idiotism of the staff in terms of the tactics of using this relict machine, of course, was enough.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Four TBAPs in the western direction, equipped with TB-3. At least two of them were full-fledged bomber regiments - with a stock of bombs prepared by the crews, with vehicles with the appropriate functionality.

This does not mean anything, because TB-3s have already been excluded from the flight missions of bomber aviation, and as one author correctly noted, they were used for dropping troops in 1942.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

But the idiotism of the staff in terms of the tactics of using this relict machine, of course, was enough.

I would call it not idiocy, but hopelessness in that situation. No wonder Kopets shot himself - he understood that he would still be shot.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

... but hopelessness in that situation

What hopelessness are we talking about? They had one and a half hundred combat-ready vehicles, which it was advisable to use as night bombers - they were mainly used. A couple of cases near Zhitormir and Bobruisk were the exception rather than the rule. But they were the result of just the staff idiotism, and not "hopelessness."

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

What hopelessness are we talking about?

The use of non-standard equipment in the troops is just an example of hopelessness. The TB-3 plane was expelled from the states as a bomber aircraft in 1939, which means that it cannot be any "night bomber". What does the staff idiocy have to do with it, if the plane is morally and technically outdated, and that is why it was excluded from the bomber aviation? Do you know anything about the order in the army, or have you heard about it on the Internet?

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

The use of non-standard equipment in the troops is just an example of hopelessness. The TB-3 aircraft was expelled from the states as a bomber aircraft in 1939.

As far as I remember, in connection with the failure of the bomber aircraft rearmament program, in 1940 it was decided to stop the decommissioning of repairable TB-3s and to transfer suitable vehicles from transport aircraft to bomber aircraft. (Order of NCO # 0152 of 19.07.1940/3/3 "Formation of air units and transfer of all TB-1 to the DBA"). All serviceable and faulty TB-3s were transferred to the 7st (SKVO), 14rd (ZAPOVO), XNUMXth (LVO) and XNUMXth (KOVO) TBAP.
So, the TB-3 was quite a "regular" aircraft of the Space Force Air Force a year before the war.
And yes - the "excluded from the states" TB-3 of the 7th DBPA during the SPV made about a hundred night bombings from the airfield near Pushkin. Apparently, out of "despair" or simply did not know that they were "expelled from the states"?

Quote: ccsr

which means that it cannot be any "night bomber".

By order of NCO No. 006 dated 01.02.1941/3/XNUMX. thirteen DBAPs were charged with accelerated training of flights at night in difficult meteorological conditions using radio navigation aids. Including, of course, this also applied to DBAP armed with TB-XNUMX.

Quote: ccsr

Do you know anything about the order in the army, or have you heard about it on the Internet?

Let's go without that swagger. Don't think of yourself as being overly knowledgeable - there is no reason for that.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

All serviceable and faulty TB-3s were transferred to the 1st (SKVO), 3rd (ZAPOVO), 7th (LVO) and 14th (KOVO) TBAP.

And that bomber aviation does not need transport aircraft? Did you read the order yourself, or just by name decided that TB-3 would be used as bombers?
Yes, and it is not clear for what purpose the transfer was carried out, because it is possible that they were transferred only in order to be used for airborne landing.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

By order of NCO No. 006 dated 01.02.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX. thirteen DBAPs were charged with accelerated training of flights at night in difficult meteorological conditions using radio navigation aids.

So it can be used for training pilots so as not to waste the resource of standard equipment. Or the landing forces cannot be thrown out at night - that's why we trained.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Apparently, out of "despair" or simply did not know that they were "expelled from the states"?

Once again I inform you that it was out of despair that these sorties were carried out, because in 1939 it was military specialists who determined that these aircraft could not be used as bombers.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Don't think of yourself as being overly knowledgeable.

What the hell is awareness if the orders of the Minister of Defense (People's Commissar) prohibit the use of non-standard equipment for the performance of combat missions in order to prevent its disruption. And only hopelessness pushes commanders of different levels to use it, especially since such flights were associated with a high probability of crew losses, and this must be answered.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

Once again I inform you that it was from despair that these flights were carried out,

but what, nafig, hopelessness during the SVF? Complete air supremacy. In the presence of a large number of DB and SB (only the KBF Air Force has more than a hundred), which was quite sufficient for this TBD, nevertheless, one squadron of the 7th TBAP on TB-3 worked exclusively as a bomber. Out of what despair did she bomb Valaam in January and February 1940? There weren't even antiaircraft guns on the island.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Out of what despair did she bomb Valaam in January and February 1940?

Actually, it was not about the Finnish, but about the war with Germany. So there is no need to compare the Air Force and Air Defense of Finland and Germany - these are two big differences.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

There weren't even antiaircraft guns on the island.

The Germans in 1941 had enough of them, as well as trained fighter pilots. That is why sending TB-3s against them initially meant not completing the task and losing the crew.
To exclude any speculation, I recommend that you study the cover plan for the ZAPOVO:

b) with the second sortie of bomber aviation to strike at enemy airfields and bases located in the second zone up to the line of Konigsberg, Marienburg, Thorn, Lodz. For this purpose, aircraft such as SB, PE-2, AR-2, of which we have 122 flights, can be used, 132 flights are required to solve this problem, 10 flights are missing.

Where are TB-3 aircraft listed here? They are not remembered at all, because they were not planned to be used as bombers.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

To exclude any speculation, I recommend that you study the cover plan for the ZAPOVO:
b) with the second sortie of bomber aviation to strike at enemy airfields and bases located in the second zone up to the line of Konigsberg, Marienburg, Thorn, Lodz. For this purpose, aircraft such as SB, PE-2, AR-2, of which we have 122 flights, can be used, 132 flights are required to solve this problem, 10 flights are missing.

Where are TB-3 aircraft listed here?

The quote is not complete. Further:

Fighter aircraft cannot accompany bombers when performing this task, their range of action does not allow

as it concerns the actions of the BA in the second zone, that is, "far". Hence the choice of aircraft types. As for first zonethen

a) deliver a simultaneous strike against the established airfields and enemy bases located in the first zone, up to the line Insterburg, Allenstein, Mlawa, Warsaw, Demblin, covering the actions of bomber aviation with fighter aircraft. To accomplish this task, 138 flights will be required, we have 142 flights, that is, using all the available bomber aviation, we can solve this task simultaneously;

On June 24, the 3rd TBAP and struck established aerodromes Germans in Suwalki, Bela Podlaska and Ostrolenka.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Hence the choice of aircraft types. As for the first zone, then

So in this zone, the use of TB-3s is not provided, and primarily due to the fact that they have already been transferred to transport aviation. Impromptu plans are not included in the cover plan - this is obvious.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

Impromptu plans are not included in the cover plan - this is obvious.

If you believe Skripko (commander of the 3rd DBAC, for a minute), the use of TB-3 in the first two nights was no "impromptu". On the very first day of the war, Skripko planned to use the TB-3 in night raids - which he did (and not without success, it should be noted). The first tactical bombardment on the first night of June 22-23 - on troop concentrations, according to the order received by the NSU Air Force of Zhigarev spacecraft, the second - on the next night on German airfields in Poland, as prescribed by Timoshenko's plan and directive of June 22. In your opinion, the same "hopelessness" came in the very first hours of the war? And what, in a couple of hours, they quickly equipped the transport vehicles with bomb racks and equipped them with bombardier shooters? Don't you think this is nonsense?

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

And what, in a couple of hours, they quickly equipped the transport vehicles with bomb racks and equipped them with bombardier shooters? Don't you think this is nonsense?

So it seems to me nonsense that they began to do this with transport aircraft on the first day of the war. Although I admit that these devices have not yet been removed on some aircraft, because as far as I remember, the order to form the airborne corps took place in early June 1941.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

If you believe Skripko (commander of the 3rd DBAC, for a minute), the use of TB-3 in the first two nights was no "impromptu".

Why didn't they get into the cover plan then? This is not an artillery battery or a rifle battalion, but still a serious weapon in the Air Force.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

In your opinion, the same "hopelessness" came in the very first hours of the war?

Judging by the time when Kopets shot himself, by the end of June 22 the scale of the tragedy was clear to him.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

Why didn't they get into the cover plan then?

I explained above - due to the specifics of the work of bombers during second zone without fighter cover! According to paragraph "a" all bomber aviation of the district performed work in first zone - is it exhaustive or do you need a model list of aircraft? If you follow your logic, then DB-3, supposedly not "included" in the plan, were also withdrawn from the bomber aviation to transport and sanitary aviation? And using them on the first day of the war is also "impromptu"? Well, of course - they are not in the Plan.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

is it exhaustive or do you need a model list of aircraft?

We had several dozen different types of them, so as not to indicate them in the PP?

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

"a" all bomber aviation of the district performed work in the first zone

So the fact of the matter is that TB-3s have already been excluded from the bomber aviation, although they were in their regiments.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

If you follow your logic, then the DB-3, supposedly not "included" in the plan, were also removed from the bomber aviation to the transport and sanitary aviation?

And where is DB-3?
By the way, in the subsequent DB-3 was just used as long-range reconnaissance aircraft and they were removed from the bomber aviation, with the subsequent installation of reconnaissance equipment.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

And where is DB-3?

Yes, despite the fact that they are also "not in the Plan."

Quote: ccsr

By the way, in the subsequent DB-3 was just used as long-range reconnaissance aircraft and they were removed from the bomber aviation

What difference does it make what there was "later"? We were talking about the "impromptu" first days of the war, no? In your opinion, the 207th and 96th DBAPs, which lost 70% of the DB-3 due to lack of cover on the very first day, acted on a whim and impromptu? And, well, yes, one DB-3 was blown up during takeoff on its own FAB-1000 - apparently, because the pilot was from transport aviation and was sent for a bombing "impromptu"?

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

In your opinion, the 207th and 96th DBAPs, which lost 70% of the DB-3 due to lack of cover on the very first day, acted on a whim and impromptu?

This is not the point, but the fact that the near zone meant our territory, and the far zone already provided for the flight of the border, which is why the plans were clarified. Well, we did not plan to use TB-3 for this, because they understood that they would come under fire from the enemy's air defense and his fighter aircraft, which is why they did not include them in the PP.
DB-3 operated from an operational situation, and by the way it was not planned as a transport one. Why did you drag him in when discussing the TB-3 aircraft?

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

Why did you drag him in when discussing the TB-3 aircraft?

I repeat: because your argument was -

Quote: ccsr

Where are TB-3 aircraft listed here?

Quote: ccsr

This is not the point, but the fact that the near zone meant our territory

Lovely ... that is,

inflict a simultaneous ular on the established airfields and enemy bases located in the first zone

means the bombing of their own airfields ???
And since when

Insterburg, Allenstein, Mlawa, Warsaw, Deblin

became ours? Insterburg turned into Chernyakhovsk only in 1946.

Quote: ccsr

DB-3 acted from the operational environment

How is it - "according to the circumstances"? Or was there a separate Plan for them?

Quote: ccsr

because they understood that they would come under fire from enemy air defense

Therefore, Skripko assigned them the role of night bombers, since Kopets told him that there would be no escort. The unaccompanied DB-3, as it was considered, had a small, but the chance to survive and fight off (48 crews, however, did not manage to do this), and the TB-3 slugs were 100% doomed.
And in their first night raid on Sejny, Lukow and Vengrov (also, by the way, not "our" territory, but quite Poland) TB-3s were fired upon by air defense, but they all returned intact.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

means the bombing of their own airfields ???
And since when

The first sortie of our bombers was intended to destroy the BORDER enemy airfields, and only after that on the second sortie they were equipped to destroy more distant targets. What is incomprehensible here from the point of view of any military specialist? Why should they fly deep into enemy territory first, so that the Germans, taking off from the field border airfields, would kill them all?

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

How is it - "according to the circumstances"? Or was there a separate Plan for them?

Could and be, given their place of basing - the plan of the commander of the air force of the district, if he was given this right at his discretion.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Therefore, Skripko gave them the role of night bombers,

Then the night was two hours at most, and even less in the air. Well, think for yourself how to hide these slow-moving planes in the June sky?

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

and the slugs TB-3 were 100% but doomed.

Here I am about the fact that it was precisely because of this that they were not planned to be used as bombers.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

The first sortie of our bombers was intended to destroy border enemy airfields.

Border - on which side of the border? Didn't you write that

Quote: ccsr

This is not the point, but the fact that the near zone meant our territory, and the far zone already provided for the flight of the border

What are the enemy's "border" airfields on our territory on the first day of the war?

Quote: ccsr

What is incomprehensible here from the point of view of any military specialist?

Indeed - what is not clear?

Quote: ccsr

Then the night was two hours at most

four and a quarter

Quote: ccsr

Well, think for yourself how to hide these slow-moving planes in the June sky?

Is this a question for Skripko? Apparently, he thought it was possible.
The TB-3 raid on Suwalki and Biala Podlaska took place from 24 hours on June 23 to 5.00:24 on June XNUMX.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

What are the enemy's "border" airfields on our territory on the first day of the war?

Yes, not on ours, but on the adjacent one. These airfields were opened by our intelligence even before the war.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

four and a quarter

At altitudes above 3-4 km, the illumination in summer is much longer, it can even be seen from the clouds.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Is this a question for Skripko? Apparently, he thought it was possible.

I believe it happened from despair.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

I believe it happened from despair.

God bless him, from despair - so from despair.
TB-3 and loads were dragged from her, as I understand - there was no Li-2. From her, in the summer of 42, on the Bryansk front and near Stalingrad, they worked as bomb carriers. Hopelessness and despair. And when, sorry, did the period of "hopelessness" end? Well, purely out of curiosity. When did Stalin's falcons have a depression?

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

... And when, sorry, did the period of "hopelessness" end? Well, purely out of curiosity. When did Stalin's falcons have a depression?

Yes, it was not all-embracing, and individual pilots fought successfully from the very beginning of the war. Therefore, there were poorly trained pilots with no experience in battles with the Germans, and naturally the commanders had a fear of losing them and equipment. In my opinion, by the summer of 1943, we had learned to fight not only on the battlefields, but also began to better train pilots, using the experience of those who had fought since the beginning of the war. There is no point in letting down any special feature in this process - I don't think you will find it anywhere in memoirs or documents. You can compare the May report of one German military leader, who writes that the arriving reservists are poorly prepared for the war, and this leads to large losses, i.e. the fact is that we also learned to fight.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

Therefore, there were poorly trained pilots

Well, of course - what can be a bomber pilot who has flown 20 hours into a school, and a scorer-shooter with 40 hours? It is clear that by the beginning of the war the quality of pilots, navigators and gunners was low. I will not quote Proskurov's letter to Stalin describing the situation in bomber aviation.

Quote: ccsr

and naturally the commanders had a fear of losing them and their equipment.

Not only. Criticism could come out, to put it mildly, sideways. The aforementioned Ivan Proskurov, for example, was shot. Like Ptukhina, Shakhta, Smushkevich, Stern and others. And surprisingly after that, the quality of training and skill of Stalin's falcons for some reason did not grow a damn thing. Paradox....)))

Quote: ccsr

In my opinion, by the summer of 1943, we learned how to fight not only on the battlefields, but also began to train pilots better, using the experience of those who fought

Fair enough. In April 1943, say, it was approved Regulations on the passage of combat training, according to which the cadets were "tested" in the front-line units. But the quality was still low. Especially when the recruiting conditions were changed, and the schools began to accept conscripts with a seven-year education. By the way, at the same time the crime rate in schools increased. Here is the timing of one flight day of the cadets of the 1st aviation school of the Navy:
flights - 30 minutes
meeting and escorting aircraft and waiting for their turn to fly - 5.5 hours
waiting for food to be served in the dining room - 2.5 hours
crossings - 2 hours
What level of training can we talk about?

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

The aforementioned Ivan Proskurov, for example, was shot.

In my opinion, he was not shot for this at all. If you are really interested in the fate of this outstanding pilot, then study his work as the head of the RU, and his report on the Finnish one, which Tymoshenko could not forgive him, because he directly pointed out the guilt of the future people's commissar. So he needed a reason to settle accounts, and he was completely undeservedly repressed - this is my personal opinion.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

In my opinion, he was not shot for this at all.

Okay, if you please - here is an excerpt from his April letter (1941g.) To Stalin (sorry for the long quote):

"... Aviation ... is the most neglected branch of the army in our army, and I can safely say that even now, in its training, our aviation does not meet the requirements of fighting a strong enemy. I consider the main disadvantage in aviation training to be its mass inability ... reliable operation in adverse weather conditions and at night, low level of fire and reconnaissance training.Most crews do not know how to find targets even in large settlements ... After all, the Germans fly over decent distances by tens and hundreds of aircraft and in bad weather conditions. hundreds of planes to heavily protected objects in poor weather conditions ... When will our aviation be able to reliably perform such flights on a massive scale? Well, our pilots or planes are worse than foreign ones? .. Everyone understands that without real training we will not be able to fight a serious enemy ... Dear Comrade Stalin, we have never had a case in the history of aviation when a commander was tried for poor training th part to him. Therefore, people involuntarily choose the lesser of two evils for themselves and reason like this: "They will scold me for shortcomings in combat training, well, in the worst case, they will demote me by a step, and for accidents and disasters I will go to trial." Unfortunately, commanders who think like this are not unique. Such sentiments exist and will continue until the same demands and responsibility are presented for the combat readiness of the subordinate unit, as for the accident rate. "

Is this not a cry of despair and at the same time an act of suicide?

Quote: ccsr

and he was completely undeservedly repressed - this is my personal opinion.

And I don’t argue.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Is this not a cry of despair and at the same time an act of suicide?

The usual report in the style of the time - for this they do not shoot. There Tymoshenko's personal dislike played a major role, and this is obvious. Because in the winter of 1941, special departments were temporarily transferred to the subordination of the People's Commissar of Defense, and it was they who dug under Proskurov. If he so wished, Tymoshenko could give them an order to stop the development of this case, and they would have carried out his decision.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

Because in the winter of 1941, special departments were temporarily transferred to the subordination of the People's Commissar of Defense, and it was they who dug under Proskurov.

Proskurov was arrested on June 27. And they were shot on October 28 - what does the people's commissar of defense have to do with it? And by and large - Tymoshenko did not even include Proskurov in the lists of punishable by the results of the April (1941) meeting of the Politburo (when Tymoshenko was reprimanded and Rychagov was removed). Stalin personally appointed Proskurov guilty.

Quote: ccsr

The usual report in the style of the time - for this they do not shoot.

Well, they shot him, of course, not for trying to make excuses. What did Comrade Lieutenant of the GB Tsepkov Viktor Georgievich draw for him? Conspiracy, sabotage, defeat of the Republicans, accidents, undermining the Air Force? Fierce nonsense from the KGB head, but they shoot for it.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Proskurov was arrested on June 27. And they were shot on October 28 - what does the people's commissar of defense have to do with it?

Given that the indication for the development of such a person was given much earlier than the war began. As for the shooting, after the war, some commanders were shot in 1941.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Stalin personally appointed Proskurov guilty.

From whose submission - what do you think?

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Fierce nonsense from the KGB head, but they shoot for it.

I agree with this - these could pile up something that still does not fit into common sense.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

Stalin personally appointed Proskurov guilty.

From whose submission - what do you think?

Stalin at the suggestion of Stalin. I am not a conspiracy theorist - there is a draft order of Tymoshenko on punishing the perpetrators of 12.04.41/04.05.41/XNUMX, there is a postscript from Stalin to include a paragraph about Proskurin in the order, which he demands to be punished similarly to Mironov, that is, to bring him to trial. This is exactly what the executive Tymoshenko did. Who there "submitted" this idea to Stalin - I have no idea, but I don't care. Proskurov's letter, of course, played a role in softening Stalin's position in relation to him (Politburo decision of XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX), Proskurov sat for two months with breadcrumbs and a change of linen - but nothing happened. And, if not for the war, I think that he would have completely "jumped off", but - alas. With the outbreak of the war, the old list of "guilty" was raised and led to the wall. And his letter was remembered too.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist - there is a draft order from Tymoshenko

Was the order itself, or did you hear about it from someone? At least give a link.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Proskurov spent two months with breadcrumbs and a change of linen - but nothing happened.

Some more even sat in prison like Rokossovsky and became the best commanders, so this episode does not prove anything.

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Who there "submitted" this idea to Stalin - I have no idea, but I don't care.

But I do not care, because it gives an understanding of the correct punishment of the person or as a result of someone's intrigue. However, you are free to interpret these events as you please.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

Was the order itself, or did you hear about it from someone? At least give a link.

Do you mean the draft with Stalin's resolution?
It is referred to in VIZh №1 for 2004. (main publication of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces) A.A. Pechenkin. At the same time, he cites an archival document with the very mark of Stalin "T-shu Tymoshenko ...":

Quote: ccsr

so this episode proves nothing.

which one? That Proskurov was awaiting arrest? And I'm not going to prove anything.

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

It is referred to in VIZh №1 for 2004. (main publication of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces) A.A. Pechenkin.

This is the journal of the Ministry of Defense, not the General Staff of the Armed Forces, but this is not the point, but what is written in it. The fact is that you need the GENUINE text of the order, not the DRAFT, in order to understand what type of punishment is being discussed - criminal, disciplinary, or simply an official investigation. You cannot assert that on the basis of Stalin's resolution on the draft, the word "shoot" was automatically typed into the order - this was the task of the tribunal.
That is why I asked the order itself, you saw and where you can see it, because the title page of the project cannot be judged on what was imputed to Proskurov.
And in general, this scan looks like a fake - they do not allow transferring on the title page in report documents, because it is read by big bosses, and there is a staff culture where even such trifles are taken into account. And the bar had to stand ...

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

but in what it says. The fact is that you need the GENUINE text of the order, not the DRAFT, in order to understand what type of punishment is in question - criminal, disciplinary, or just an official investigation

Extracts from the protocol of the decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b). April 9, 1941:

The Central Committee of the CPSU (b) and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR decide:

1. Remove Comrade Rychagov from the post of head of the Red Army Air Force and from the post of deputy
People's Commissar of Defense, as undisciplined and failed
with the duty of the head of the Air Force.

2. To bring Colonel Mironov to trial for an obviously criminal order,
violating the elementary rules of flight service.

3. To entrust the performance of the duties of the head of the Red Army Air Force to
1st Deputy Chief of the Air Force Comrade Zhigarev.

4. To propose to the People's Commissar of Defense Comrade Tymoshenko to submit to the Central Committee of the CPSU (b)
a draft resolution of the Main Military Council in the spirit of this decision - for distribution to aviation divisions, regiments, schools, in the form of an order from
People's Commissar.

p. 126. On the main shortcomings in military aviation (Decree of the Central Committee
VKP (O) and SNK USSR)

To reprimand the People's Commissar for Defense Comrade Tymoshenko for the fact that in his report
of April 8, 1941, he essentially helps comrade Rychagov to hide from the Central Committee
VKP (b) and SNK USSR shortcomings and ulcers that take place in the Air Force of the Red Army.

"To bring to justice" means to bring to justice. I don’t understand - do you propose some other interpretation of this phrase from the Resolution?

Quote: ccsr

You cannot say that on the basis of Stalin's resolution on the draft, the word "shoot" was automatically typed into the order

And I didn’t say that. I wrote that after order 022 dated 12.04.41/XNUMX/XNUMX and before his appointment to Karelia, Proskurov was out of work awaiting arrest (despite even the May decision of the Politburo, which did not rehabilitate him and did not remove his guilt, but rather simply weakened the stranglehold)

[ccsr]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

"To bring to justice" means to bring to justice. I don’t understand - do you propose some other interpretation of this phrase from the Resolution?

Does it bother you that there is not a single word about Proskurov in the Resolution?
Yes, and the words "bring to justice" does not mean execution - you should understand that.
But the most interesting thing is not even this, but item 4:

4. To propose to the People's Commissar of Defense Comrade Tymoshenko to submit to the Central Committee of the CPSU (b)
project decisions of the General Council of War in the spirit of this decision - for dispatch to aviation divisions, regiments, schools, in the form of an order from
People's Commissar.

As you can see, it was Tymoshenko who gave the will to deal with the guilty at the military council, and I said at the very beginning that he was settling scores with Proskurov, and not Stalin, who, in general, might not have insisted on being shot.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: ccsr

Does it bother you that there is not a single word about Proskurov in the Resolution?

It's just some kind of nonsense .......
What the fuck is "a word about Proskurov" ?? Do you generally follow the thought and chronology of documents ??
Or start all over again?

Quote: ccsr

And the words "bring to justice" does not mean execution

Damn, what does it have to do with it? To bring to justice - this means exactly what it means! The term, execution, hanging on a sword belt, exile or beheading of the testicles - the military justice decided

Quote: ccsr

As you can see, it was Tymoshenko who gave free rein ... I said at the very beginning that he was settling scores with Proskurov.

But do not care - we are sure that this is Tymoshenko's intrigues - your right. I do not see them and I consider them differently - this is my right. Goodbye, there is no desire to pour from empty to empty anymore.

[Magog_]

Gentlemen, comrades, in your long and very meaningful discussion, the thread, in my opinion, of the set topic of discussion has been lost: was the practice of using the TB-3 as a front-line bomber justified, and even without proper cover with fighters (?). I answer: it was! In the conditions of the rapid advance of the German armored forces deep into the territory of the USSR, in the first hours, almost all of our airfields, on which the fighter regiments were based, were captured. As a result, a noticeable and significant part of the equipment died or fell into the hands of the enemy, and some of them managed to fly deep into the rear platforms and airfields, where, as it turned out, there were no reserves of fuel, ammunition and, in general, conditions to prepare the aircraft for departure ... it was tantamount to the loss of the rest of the fighter aircraft. Therefore, there was nothing to cover the bombers ... and not only TB-3. So the enemy gained air supremacy. Why TB-3? Because they were based farthest from the border, and the command had no other means to influence enemy targets ...

[alpamys]

it turns out that there were more than a dozen messengers in the report, but in fact there are two.

[Protos]

16

Quote: alpamys

it turns out that there were more than a dozen messengers in the report, but in fact there are two.

In the target area TB-3 met 16 Me-109, patrolling the area of ​​strategic bridges!
A couple of the most experienced pilots left for the TB-3 dogon, the rest continued to patrol in the area of ​​the crossing!

[123456789]

"Their feat is someone's fault"

[123456789]

Any feat is just a planning mistake

[The eye of the crying]

Planning mistakes are inevitable.

[Kostadinov]

I still did not understand what was interesting in this battle if only two of them hit.
It is doubtful that they were fired upon by anti-aircraft artillery during the day and there were no casualties. Rather, the fighters were finishing off vehicles already damaged by anti-aircraft gunners.
TB-3 fought very well and effectively. Their losses to combat vyileti are lower than those of the Pe-2 or Il-4, and even lower to the dropped bombs.
Fuel B-70.
They could have been accompanied by the I-15, and then the losses could not have been hit.
In general, Me-109s shot down very few TB-3s.

[DrEng527]

Quote: Kostadinov

TB-3 fought very well and effectively. Their losses to combat vyileti are lower than those of the Pe-2 or Il-4, and even lower to the dropped bombs.

curious - do not announce the source of information?

[Kostadinov]

Quote: DrEng527

Quote: Kostadinov

TB-3 fought very well and effectively. Their losses to combat vyileti are lower than those of the Pe-2 or Il-4, and even lower to the dropped bombs.

curious - do not announce the source of information?

I can't quote for sure, but there are many of them. They beat monographs about this plane. But how many planes flew in the war, how many combat flights they made, dropped bombs and what losses they have - that's enough.

[Aviator_]

Their only effective use as bombers without combat losses was on Hasan (1938) against the Japanese, with the Japanese air defense completely absent.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Aviator_

Their only effective use as bombers without combat losses was on Hasan (1938) against the Japanese, with the Japanese air defense completely absent.

Quite right, Comrade Aviator! During the day, in large groups, with salvo bombing from a dense formation from medium heights, with complete domination and without loss - the first and last time.

[Kostadinov]

Quote: DrEng527

Quote: Kostadinov

TB-3 fought very well and effectively. Their losses to combat vyileti are lower than those of the Pe-2 or Il-4, and even lower to the dropped bombs.

curious - do not announce the source of information?

"By the beginning of the Great Patriotic War on June 22, 1941, the USSR Air Force had 516 combat-ready aircraft, not counting the 25 that were subordinate to the USSR Navy. On June 23, TB-3 began night bombing of enemy territory .... by August 1941 TB-3 was 25 % of all bombing air forces, and in general, losses were relatively small - in 1941, for all reasons, including non-combat losses and abandoned during the retreat, less than 40 aircraft were lost.
TB-3 took part in all important battles of 1941-1943, including the Battle of Smolensk, the Battle of Moscow, the Battle of Stalingrad, breaking the blockade of Leningrad and the Battle of Kursk. By July 1, 1945, the 18th Air Division still had ten TB-3 aircraft on alert. "- all this is only from Wikipedia.

[dmmyak40]

I wonder why in the photo Zveno-SPB, and not TB-3? Has the editor replaced the author's photo again?

[certero]

Great movie. I listened with pleasure and looked. This is how the events of those distant times should be analyzed. then much more becomes clear

[scary]

Once leafing through the materials on the bombing of the Red Army in Romania in the summer of 41. From the territory in the region of Izmail. So DB-3 bombers were already used there. TB-3 was used as an auxiliary. The Red Army did not have a dive bomber to hit the bridge. We decided to use the I-16, but it lacked the flight range. TB-3 was used to deliver the fighter - there was such a one. opportunity .. And so, in this epic TB-3 was no longer used in combat operations.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: engy

So DB-3 bombers were already used there.

what does "already" mean? DB-3 fought since 1939, from China.

Quote: engy

The Red Army did not have a dive bomber to hit the bridge.

Two weeks before the Chernovodsky Bridge, there were two successful raids on Constanta using the Zveno-SPB complex.

[Vladimir Mashkov]

The father of my childhood and youth friend is a blessed memory to him! - sometimes he told us about himself, about aviation. He was a pilot and began flying in the mid-30s of the last century. Before the war he had a chance to fly a TB-3 on both the right and left seats. He spoke about the advantages of bombers: "What is a fighter? It's like the devil on a broomstick: you sit and wield a stick! Whether it's a bomber! You are the commander of a SHIP. You have not a stick, but a steering wheel! You fly. Look to the right - WING. You look. left - WING. Behind - the crew. Great! "
And in the Great Patriotic War, he flew on the DB-3 and Il-4 mine-torpedo aviation of the Black Sea Fleet.

[Sergey Medvedev]

This Timin is Rezun of a new spill. He no longer drowns openly against the USSR, like Rezun. He continues the work of Dr. Goebbels in a different way. He selects episodes of our defeats, subtly hinting at what kind of subhuman we are. Let him tell how the air defense of Moscow shot down 200 German bombers in a day. What forced the Germans to abandon daytime raids and switch to night ones.

[Silvio]

Quote: Stroporez

close in strength to "Torpedo bombers" and "Old Men".

Well, Old Men are vaudeville, well-fed faces sing in the war.

[dgonni]

The 41st year and especially the beginning of the war were really bitter in terms of the implementation of any plans of the union.
My grandmother told me how she was mobilized to dig anti-tank ditches near Novograd. And how the lost one arrived and -15 or 153rd. He wanted to decide where he was. Well, one 37mm anti-aircraft gun also flunked him. Although as a grandmother said not a single German who walked over their heads. They could not shoot down, but they found the pilot, realized that they were theirs and buried him on a hillock.
Then, in my opinion, they moved the grave to the common brotherly in the 70s.
It was such a time!

[Kostadinov]

Quote: dgonni

And how the lost one arrived and -15 or 153rd. He wanted to decide where he was. Well, one 37mm anti-aircraft gun also flunked him. Although as a grandmother said not a single German who walked over their heads. They could not shoot down, but they found the pilot, realized that they were theirs and buried him on a hillock.

The first ships that sank the glorious Luftwaffe were beaten by the (German) destroyers. The mighty FLAC successfully consumed its aircraft on January 1, 1945.
And so on ... up to 30% of losses from "friendly fire" in the US operation in the Persian Gulf.
So there is nothing unprecedented and stunning in the loss of the I-153 from its anti-aircraft gun.

[Timofey Astakhov]

Quote: pmkemcity

Lend-Lease's contribution to the war economy is 4%.

Oh well. How much can you gargle these unfortunate 4 percent?

The contribution of Lend-Lease has been invaluable. But stubborn patriots do not like to remember about it

[froger]

It is necessary not to declaim works of art, but to quote real reports and reports on the events of that war. A writer can take this or that real case as a basis, but it is not a fact that he will not embellish it, but in general he may and has the right to even slightly change these events in his novel - to attribute something, to keep silent about something, to add from himself something that does not stand out too noticeably and contradicts real events and facts.
In fact, the situation with the use of TB-3 in WWII is even more tragic and sad than in the described case. These heavy and slow-moving bombers were simply forbidden to be used without fighter cover, since this actually meant the loss of bombers - they were so poorly protected from fighter attacks. And yet there were such cases. This is how the sad case is known, when out of 12 TB-3s that went on a combat mission, not a single one returned to the airfield. Such cases, apparently, were from the lack of cover fighters, but the fact remains.
Okay, obsolete bombers, out of production a few years before the start of the war. But how inept and unprofessional one must be to produce IL-2 attack aircraft without any protection from fighter attacks from behind. And again it was envisaged to release them to attack enemy positions only under the cover of fighters. But in war there are situations that cannot be foreseen. And only the huge real losses of the single IL-2 literally forced the designers to establish a place for the shooter, who defended the rear hemisphere with a machine gun. As if this could not have been foreseen earlier.
It is often said that the heroism of some is the correction of bungling, mistakes or inability of others. The war confirms this very often.

[Pomeranian]

We need to reread Golovanov. He wrote something in his memoirs, but the actions of our pilots, I remember, were more successful.