Military Review

The giant petty bourgeois wave and its consequences

304

Here it is - that "gigantic petty-bourgeois wave" about which Lenin will write in April-May 1917. In gray overcoats and with rifles in hand.


One can
be
torn apart by bombs
can
die
for the land for their own,
but how
die
for the general?

Mayakovsky V.V. Good!

The beginning and end of the peasant civilization. Today before you, dear readers of VO, is the fourth article of our "peasant cycle".

It's nice that many are interested in this topic. And some of the comments began to be distinguished by a special depth. Moreover, their authors cited facts that significantly supplemented the third article. First of all, this refers to two comments by Deniska999, and bober1982 (vladimir), who turned to interesting sources for this.

I was also very pleased that some followed my advice and started reading the books recommended in the article. And they wrote in the comments that they liked such and such a book.

There were also questions and suggestions. In particular, please tell us more about the essence of the Stolypin agrarian reform. However, a story about her would lead our cycle to one side, so I will refrain from it for now.

But today we are again expected to turn to Lenin's printed heritage and a completely rare edition, once removed from all libraries of the Soviet Union. But relevance, as a source, has not lost it at all.


The illustrative row for today's material is supposed to be quite variegated: there will be photographs from the author's archive, and photos of the era of the revolution in subsequent years, and frames from a popular movie at one time. And just the first pictures will be on the theme of how "merrily" the landowners lived with us. Take at least the same famous poet-hunter Nekrasov, who put his beloved dog at the dinner table. And some of them buried their dead pets even under such stone monuments.
Exposition of the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore.



And here is another such stone, which, however, has lost its bronze bas-relief.
That is, the landowners lived well on the whole.

So, we will skip the Stolypin agrarian reform, and the revolution of 1905-1907, and the subsequent economic growth that took place in the Russian Empire.

And let's go straight to the spring of 1917, when the consequences of the First World War hit peasant Russia especially hard. Here everything merged into one stream: fatigue from the war, and its hardships, and the beginning of devastation in the countryside, and the anti-war agitation of the left parties. The result is important.

And the ending was like this - the autocracy in Russia was overthrown. But the new government was in no hurry to decide either the question of peace or the question of land. And that was his trouble.


"Why are there three horses on the farm?" One of the readers asked me. But for what: you plow on two, and the third (or even two) rests (or is still busy at some kind of work).
Photo 1907 of the year.

However, what is important for us, first of all, are the social consequences of everything that took place after the overthrow of the autocracy. And here again no one better than V. I. Lenin understood the situation in Russia and did not describe it.

And he wrote literally the following:

“Russia is in full swing now. Millions and tens of millions, politically sleeping for ten years, politically hammered by the terrible oppression of tsarism and hard labor for the landlords and manufacturers, woke up and reached for politics. And who are these millions and tens of millions? Mostly petty proprietors, petty bourgeois, people standing in the middle between capitalists and wage workers. Russia is the most petty-bourgeois country of all European countries.

Giant petty bourgeois wave overwhelmed everything, suppressed the class-conscious proletariat not only by its numbers, but also ideologically, that is, it infected and captured very wide circles of workers with petty-bourgeois views on politics.

The petty bourgeoisie in life depends on the bourgeoisie, living itself in a proletarian way, and not in a proletarian way (in the sense of a place in social production), and in the way of thinking it follows the bourgeoisie.

In the interests of improving the technique of grain production and the size of production, as well as in the interests of developing rational large-scale farming and social control over it, we must, within the peasant committees, seek the formation of a large exemplary farm from each confiscated landlord's estate under the control of Soviets of Agricultural Laborers. The party of the proletariat must explain that the system of small-scale farming with commodity production is not able to save mankind from the poverty of the masses and their oppression. "

THE TASKS OF THE PROLETARIAT IN OUR REVOLUTION
(DRAFT PLATFORM OF THE PROLETAR PARTY)
Written on April 10 (23), 1917; afterword - May 28 (June 10) 1917
Published in September 1917 in Petrograd as a separate brochure by the Priboy publishing house.

Signature: V. Lenin

That is, in modern terms, although perhaps somewhat roughly:

"The village flooded into the cities."

Someone was shaved into the soldiers, someone hastened to buy armor at a military plant, someone speculated in bread and vodka (why not, since there is demand ?!). The main thing is that huge masses of peasants, infected with petty-bourgeois outlooks on life, with a patriarchal psychology, suddenly felt that they, too, were people, that

"A man with a gun is strength," and since he is strength, then if you please give him what he "demanded!"

The giant petty bourgeois wave and its consequences
There he is - a man with a gun. " A still from the movie of the same name. And here's how to refuse this? Especially if there are a lot of them and they will all be with guns?


And there were a lot of them. Look how many banners have been dragged to the Tauride Palace. And you read what they wrote on them, it is so clear absolutely that in their heads they have one porridge.

And in order to satisfy the demands of all these masses, after the October coup, Lenin decided to abandon the Bolshevik program of creating large model farms on the basis of landowners. And, as the peasants and Socialist-Revolutionaries demanded - to give and divide all the land of the landowners!

The "man with a gun" was very happy about such a decision.

"There will be land - everything will be",

He thought. Although I did not understand what the catch is, and what is more, a big one.

The fact is that the same kulaks did not need landlord lands, in general. Moreover, the purchase and sale of land (as well as its processing by hired labor) were prohibited. They already lived well, robbing fellow villagers, keeping their debts in their fists.

The poor people needed the surplus land like a dead poultice. They could not cultivate their own land either. There was no tax.

The middle peasants remained. For them Lenin's decree was like manna from heaven. All they lacked was land. And so they got it.

But, having received land, they immediately ceased to need any kind of power. Their household was practically natural.

Well, we need needles, kerosene. It would be nice to have a "tittieshnek" woman. I saw how these were sold on the market - that's fun. And so - we have our own!

And it was this virtually feudal independence of the middle peasant that added fuel to the fire of the Civil War. And this is precisely where Lenin's calls come from:

"Don't dare to command the middle peasant."


Do you want land ?! Here's the land!

The village idiot could easily be set against the kulaks and thus for a while to appease her discontent. But with the middle peasants it was impossible. Since now the kulaks are gone, it was they who became the main producers of marketable grain, feeding both the army and the city. And their interests very much even had to be reckoned with. For example, to turn a blind eye to the activities of the ARA, because the same famine had a heavy impact not only on the poor loyal to the party, but also on the middle peasants, bread producers.

Yes, but who to reckon with? With carriers of a backward petty-bourgeois psychology, brought up in patriarchal traditions, with a bunch of prejudices, stubborn and stubborn? Yes, fullness. They had to be dealt with decisively once and for all, so as not to depend on them in any way.

Yes, only for a long time this could not be done. On the contrary, it was in the interests of this mass that the NEP was introduced in the country, the cultivation of the land by hired labor (that is, farming) was allowed, since the Bolsheviks very well understood that it was simply impossible to jump into socialism in a peasant country like that right away.

And here in the country one after another congresses are held, setting the vector for its development. In 1925, the XIV Congress of the CPSU (b) - the congress of industrialization. In 1927, the XNUMXth congress was a congress of collectivization, at which a decision was made on the need to change the course of development of agriculture.

The essence of the discussion was the unification of the peasants into one whole and the creation of collective farms in order to increase the production of marketable grain. Because at that time, apart from timber and bread, we simply had nothing to sell abroad. And, accordingly, there was nothing to buy machines and equipment to make Tanks and planes in case of a world revolution or an attack by the invaders, which was not ruled out in any way.

There was one more very important ideological reason. The fact is that one of the fundamental contradictions of Bolshevism of this time was the indisputable fact that the party (which called itself workers, and its rule - the dictatorship of the proletariat) actually came to power in an agrarian country where factory workers made up only a few percent of the population. Moreover, most of them were yesterday's immigrants from the village, who had not yet completely severed ties with it.

After all, Lenin's "gigantic wave" did not go anywhere afterwards. It did not dissolve. Forced industrialization was supposed to eliminate this contradiction.


1928 year. The peasants are listening to the radio.

But then quite unusual difficulties began.

Grain was required now. And you could take it only on the tax in kind, which the peasants in the USSR were allowed to pay by choice: either grain or industrial crops.

And then there was the grain harvest failure of 1926-1927. With a good harvest of industrial crops. So the peasants paid off the tax in kind with them.

The grain harvest of 1927-1928 was good. But, frightened by the poor harvest last year, the peasants held back the grain. And again they paid off with technical crops.


Collective farm named after Bekerev. The founders of the first collective farm in Tatarstan.

And industrialization has already begun.

Amtorg in the USA worked tirelessly. Grain was required like air.

The situation became so acute that on January 15, 1928, Stalin personally went to Siberia. And what did the peasants say to him there?

“Bread for you? And you dance! "

It is clear that Stalin (like no one else in his place) would not have tolerated this petty-bourgeois freedom any longer.

That is why on December 27, 1929, at a conference of agrarian Marxists, Stalin made a report "On the issues of agrarian policy in the USSR" (by the way, very interesting and containing many references to the works of VI Lenin).

There he announced the need for a forced transition to the creation of collective farms.

That is, the time for this, apparently, has come.

Additional literature:

1. Activities of Russian and foreign organizations to eliminate the famine of 1921-22: based on materials from the Lower Volga region. Knurova, Valentina Alexandrovna. Candidate historical sciences. Astrakhan. VAK specialty code: 07.00.02

2. Speech by I.V. Stalin at the conference of agrarian Marxists "On the issues of agrarian policy in the USSR", December 27, 1929 https://istmat.info/node/20180
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 2 January 2021 05: 21
    +7
    Lenin's theses are relevant today ... a classic for assessing the state of the bourgeois system in our time.
    Interestingly, the shortage of peasants (farmers) in our time is compensated by the formation of large agricultural holdings and agricultural concerns ... Stalin said this at the conference
    There is a capitalist path, which consists in the enlargement of agriculture by planting capitalism in it, a path leading to the impoverishment of the peasantry and to the development of capitalist enterprises in agriculture.
    and we are now witnessing this.

    It was not necessary to break the peasantry over the knee and it would have been possible to avoid kulak uprisings ... although on the other hand, the authorities of that time probably did not have a special choice, the country only got out of WWI and the devastation of the civil war.
    Much of what was said by Lenin and Stalin a hundred years ago is confirmed by modern practice. what Our country has followed the path of large state capitalism.
    An interesting topic was raised by Vyacheslav.
    Thank you Vyacheslav for the article ... I look forward to continuing.
    1. apro
      apro 2 January 2021 05: 31
      -1
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Our country has followed the path of large state capitalism.

      How is this confirmed? Who is in charge of this system? The official? Or the creation of a national economic organism.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 2 January 2021 05: 44
        +9
        How is this confirmed?
        And the fact that we do not yet have a viable small and middle bourgeois class.
        All large enterprises are concentrated in the hands of a couple of dozen families close to the government.hi
        In addition, do not forget about the financial capital, which is enlarged every year by cutting off small banks.
        Everyone knows Sberbank, Otkritie, VTB, etc. who have a lot of money ... this is an inevitable process of capitalism.
        1. apro
          apro 2 January 2021 05: 51
          -1
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          Our country

          I always confuse the USSR and the Russian Federation.
          Today it is difficult to name the Russian system. state capitalism. due to dependence on foreign influence. rather by colonial administration.
          Izvenite. I thought that you called the USSR system state capitalism ...
          1. Profiler
            Profiler 2 January 2021 06: 11
            +1
            Quote: author's text
            What is more important: the economy or the consciousness that generates it?


            One concept, without the other, does not exist separately, as a form of social and socio-political relationships in any state, and moreover, both are fundamentally not viable in isolation from each other, as derivatives.

            This, the author understands, asking such a question?
            1. Snail N9
              Snail N9 2 January 2021 07: 53
              0
              Well, let's put it this way: the rulers of Russia are no strangers to robbing their people in their favor - in times of the Quiet the peasants were enslaved - the most important feeding force was taken out of the zemstvo, that is, they completely began to ignore the opinion and desires of most of the population feeding the whole country, during the so-called "abolition of serfdom" the tsarist family, together with Baron Stieglitz, robbed the peasants' savings - they swept away gold and silver from them. At the time of collectivization, the Bolsheviks, on the necks of the peasants and at their expense, as well as at the expense of the labor of numerous slaves from the Gulag, carried out industrialization. Now, the modern elite, due to the unrestrained export of subsoil and natural resources of the country and turning out the pockets of the common people, is increasing the Forbes list "into a new reincarnation of the digital GULAG ..
          2. kalibr
            2 January 2021 08: 14
            +1
            Quote: apro
            what did you call the system of the USSR state capitalism ...

            He named it correctly.
            1. apro
              apro 2 January 2021 08: 16
              +2
              Quote: kalibr
              He correctly named

              And who owned the capital in the USSR? Capital has a specific owner.
              1. kalibr
                2 January 2021 08: 41
                +1
                Quote: apro
                And who owned the capital in the USSR? Capital has a specific owner.

                The state, of course. In the face of the party apparatus. Not the whole party, but its top. Everything is very simple. Only about the "state of the whole people" do not write to me in response, okay? We did not have him for a single day.
                1. apro
                  apro 2 January 2021 08: 48
                  +9
                  Quote: kalibr
                  and its tops.

                  As I understand it, VILENIN.IVStalin.LIBrezhnev were the owners of the property, the money of the USSR? Or were they all the bankruptcy administrators of the USSR. And did they direct their funds to overconsumption of themselves personally and for their entourage. Where are the accounts in banks.
                  1. kalibr
                    2 January 2021 10: 02
                    -3
                    You misunderstand. Very primitive. Why do you need a personal yacht, or a dacha in Gorki, when you have a whole fleet at your service, and at the dacha you are already resting ... alone. Not in a crowd of peasants? They were users, like everyone else in the USSR, but the very fact that everything in the country belonged to the highest echelons of the party state nomenklatura is beyond doubt. It was they who made the decisions, and everyone else just followed them. There was a fusion of the party officials. That's all!
                    You will read the last two pages of the Short Course in the History of the CPSU (b). It says very well about it. You need to think a little over the words, really.
                    1. apro
                      apro 2 January 2021 10: 16
                      +5
                      Quote: kalibr
                      but the very fact that everything in the country belongs to the highest echelons of the party state nomenklatura is beyond doubt

                      You simply understand ... the party took power into its own hands with the aim of building a just society. Yes, and the management of the national economy was in the hands of the party. IT IS MANAGEMENT, not ownership. There is a huge difference. Governance is based on laws and decisions taken collectively.
                      1. kalibr
                        2 January 2021 10: 32
                        +3
                        Quote: apro
                        aim of building a just society

                        Yesterday evening I was pushing a steam locomotive-monument at the station for the purpose of entertainment. He was sweating, but did not budge.
                      2. apro
                        apro 2 January 2021 10: 38
                        +1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Yesterday evening I was pushing a steam locomotive-monument at the station for the purpose of entertainment. He was sweating, but did not budge.

                        Have you tried to think with your head?
                      3. kalibr
                        2 January 2021 10: 45
                        -7
                        This is Oleg, I could suggest thinking with your head, and not ... You see, our conversation loses its meaning. I did not hire you as a teacher of political science and sociology, you do not know them, so there is no point in throwing pearls. Once again, I can advise, in self-education, such accessible magazines as Rodina, Voprosy istorii, USA and Canada. Let's say on Sundays to the library for two hours. And something to choose from. You will not regret!
                      4. zenion
                        zenion 2 January 2021 15: 48
                        +6
                        kalibr (Vyacheslav). In this case, even though you are the caliber, but not the system. Geniuses create. Smart people know how to use it. He who can’t do anything teaches others. It seems so the Chinese proverb says. Nobody asks you, but you teach others. Therefore, there are two opinions - wrong, this is the opinion of another. And, of course, your opinion is correct. With this, you started showing fangs.
                      5. kalibr
                        2 January 2021 18: 00
                        -7
                        Quote: zenion
                        He who can’t do anything teaches others.

                        And who told you that I can’t do anything? I can do a lot of things that very many do not know ...
                      6. zenion
                        zenion 3 January 2021 19: 02
                        0
                        You should still read one of the sayings of the ancient Greek - now I know that I know nothing. But many do not know this either. You are arrogant and set your own price. Kozma Prutkov wrote - click the mare in the nose, it will twitch its tail.
                  2. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 2 January 2021 18: 45
                    +5
                    Quote: kalibr
                    I did not hire you as a teacher of political science and sociology, you do not know them, so there is no point in throwing pearls.

                    Nobody hires you, because. unimportant teacher among you, you don't even know that during the NEP in the USSR, state capitalism was just one of five economic structures:
                    1) patriarchal;
                    2) small-scale commodity production;
                    3) private capitalism;
                    4) state capitalism;
                    5) socialism.
                    And the economy of the late USSR corresponded to Lenin's words about monopoly, which he wrote in his work "Threatening cactastrophe and how to deal with it" (VI Lenin, PSS, 5th ed., T. 34, S. 151-199).
                    “Socialism is nothing but the next step forward from the state capitalist monopoly. Or else: socialism is nothing more than a state-capitalist monopoly, turned to the benefit of the entire people and so far ceased to be a capitalist monopoly ".
                  3. kalibr
                    3 January 2021 12: 01
                    -1
                    Why should I write about it? I am not demonstrating knowledge, but describing the phenomenon. To describe it, it is quite enough that which has resulted.
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    socialism is nothing more than a state-capitalist monopoly, turned to the benefit of the entire people and, so far, has ceased to be a capitalist monopoly. "

                    But this verbiage!
                  4. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 3 January 2021 12: 05
                    +3
                    Quote: kalibr
                    But this verbiage!

                    These are the words of V.I. Do you call Lenin verbiage? You will not die of modesty.
        2. Kostya Lavinyukov
          Kostya Lavinyukov 2 January 2021 18: 56
          0
          Management of management, but income from production was distributed primarily in favor of the party nomenklatura, albeit through the state, and not directly.
      2. bk0010
        bk0010 2 January 2021 17: 44
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        You are misunderstanding. Very primitive.
        You too. Replace in your message "the highest echelons of the party state nomenklatura" with "top managers of joint-stock companies" - get what is happening now. The managers make decisions (and fatten), and all the rest simply carry out them (and the owner-shareholders also ... there should be obscene expressions ... as the management dilutes the shares and nobody cares about their opinion).
        1. kalibr
          2 January 2021 18: 02
          -1
          Quote: bk0010
          Replace in your message "the highest echelons of the party state nomenklatura" with "top managers of joint-stock companies" - get what is happening now.

          That is, then there was state capitalism and now. Thats exactly what I mean!
      3. Lerik
        Lerik 9 February 2021 16: 59
        0
        Do you think that the leaders of the state, represented by ministers and presidents, should live in shacks on the territory of the Kremlin or in a dugout dug by them personally and covered with straw purchased with their salaries? and you also forbid these persons not only to make any decisions, but also to speak out in any way? don't you need to think about your statements?
    2. kalibr
      2 January 2021 10: 07
      +3
      Quote: apro
      were bankruptcy administrators of the USSR

      Haha, what were the alternative candidates in the elections? In tsarist Russia, autocracy was limited by the death of the monarch and regicide. With us - death and "retirement". Or do you have other examples?
      1. apro
        apro 2 January 2021 10: 09
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        Haha, what were the alternative candidates in the elections?

        In the Politburo ... there were enough candidates ...
        1. kalibr
          2 January 2021 10: 15
          +4
          Judging by the ballots - no! Well, what do you want to prove to me again? That there were elections in the USSR on an alternative basis: 2,3,4 candidates "to the top"? I really don't need to be with me ...
        2. apro
          apro 2 January 2021 10: 18
          +1
          Yes, they did not elect the secretary of the CPSU in the USSR, but his powers were confirmed by the congress of people's deputies ...
        3. kalibr
          2 January 2021 10: 35
          +2
          Quote: apro
          Yes, they did not elect the secretary of the CPSU in the USSR, but his powers were confirmed by the congress of people's deputies ...

          That's it! "One deputy from the pre-war period went to the congresses stubbornly. His eyes turned red from red caviar, his soul turned black from black ..." The song was like that then ... And also: "Why am I dumb, I eat sevruga, simple Russian food, I catch her in my pond ... "(although the pond, of course, was listed by the Ministry of Fisheries!) There are many more couplets ...
        4. apro
          apro 2 January 2021 10: 43
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          That's it! "One deputy from the pre-war period went to the congresses stubbornly. His eyes turned red from red caviar, his soul turned black from black ..." The song was like that then ... And also: "Why am I dumb, I eat sevruga, simple Russian food, I catch her in my pond ... "(although the pond, of course, was listed by the Ministry of Fisheries!) There are many more couplets ...

          The Russian knows how to joke ... to do something useful is not very ... which speaks of the petty-bourgeois thinking ... of the population ... and yours too.
        5. kalibr
          2 January 2021 11: 13
          0
          Quote: apro
          which speaks of the petty-bourgeois thinking ... of the population.

          In my opinion, the ENTIRE ARTICLE is talking about this, isn't it? And let's not analyze my consciousness, read my articles on VO - that's enough.
  2. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 2 January 2021 18: 59
    +3
    Quote: kalibr
    That there were elections in the USSR on an alternative basis: 2,3,4 candidates "to the top"?

    How long can you fool people with alternative elections? This is a bourgeois democracy, in which the winner is the one with the biggest money bag. Under the dictatorship of the proletariat, there should be no such elections. The alternative in the USSR under Gorbachev ended with the restoration of capitalism. The alternative in Nicaragua brought to power a representative of the big bourgeoisie (Violetta Chamorro).
    Under the dictatorship of the proletariat, candidates were nominated by the factory collectives, and alternatives were also discussed there. Party workers, if they wanted to get into deputies, their candidates were also discussed and nominated by labor collectives.
  3. kalibr
    3 January 2021 12: 02
    -3
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Party workers, if they wanted to get into deputies, their candidates were also discussed and nominated by labor collectives.

    It's so funny that it's not even funny anymore!
  4. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 3 January 2021 19: 21
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    It's so funny that it's not even funny anymore!

    It is felt that you do not know these questions, and do not know that until 1936 the elections were indirect, but multistage. In cities, elective meetings were held at enterprises and institutions, that is, at the place of work of voters. The election of deputies to the councils was carried out openly, by a show of hands. The voters were offered a list of candidates, which was discussed. And there was a recall mechanism, the same labor collectives of a failed deputy could be recalled ahead of schedule at any time.

    After 1936, the elections became direct, but the candidacies were still discussed and approved in the labor collectives. Even Bourgeois Wikipedia writes about it like this:
    • October 17, 1937 - District Election Commissions (DECs) are formed
    • October 20, 1937 - pre-election meetings began at enterprises.
    • October 26, 1937 - Polling stations published.
    • October 27, 1937 - pre-election meetings are held at enterprises. Each enterprise nominates a candidate. Several candidates are nominated at district pre-election meetings.
    • October 28, 1937 - Pre-election district meetings were held. In the Petrograd district, 8 candidates were nominated, in the Smolninsky district - 6 candidates, in the Frunzensky district - 5 candidates.
    • November 3, 1937 - Pre-election meetings begin in the regions. As a rule, several people of all-Union importance and one representative of local
    • November 7, 1937 - some candidates (including members of the Politburo) refused to be nominated for additional constituencies
    • November 9, 1937 - DEC registered candidates.

    And in the Brezhnev era, I myself, while working in production, participated in such discussions. So I didn’t write anything funny or wrong.

    And in conclusion, I advise you: seriously study the history of the CPSU.
  5. kalibr
    3 January 2021 21: 16
    +1
    All this didn’t prevent the election of Khrushchev, right? And the epic of Brezhnev, who did not knit a bast at the end, but no one recalled him? What's the point of this multistage? On paper, everything was fine with us, who can argue? The result is important, and it is known - 1991!
  6. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 4 January 2021 00: 40
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    What's the point of this multistage? On paper, everything was fine with us, who can argue? The result is important, and it is known - 1991!

    And that's another story. I have repeatedly described to you the reason for the restoration of capitalism in the USSR and its destruction in our previous discussions. and it does not lie in the election system, but in a subjective factor caused by large losses among members of the CPSU (b), Komsomol, the working class and Soviet patriots in general during the Great Patriotic War.
  7. kalibr
    4 January 2021 07: 23
    -1
    Quote: Alexander Green
    a subjective factor due to large losses among members of the CPSU (b), Komsomol, the working class and in general Soviet patriots during the Great Patriotic War.

    That is, in the end we also lost the war ...
  8. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 4 January 2021 21: 14
    +1
    We did not lose the Patriotic War, but after the death of I.V. Stalin, we lost the ideological war against socialism and the USSR. The reason is the consequences of the war. In the war, three members of the Communist Party died, who were politically literate, heroes came to their place, but, unfortunately, poorly grounded in theoretical terms, the candidate's training for them was completely pratically canceled and they studied Marxism mainly according to slogans. Then Khrushchev released all left and right deviators from the camps, and they all together deceived the bulk of the communists and the Soviet people, and at the XX11th Congress they carried out a counterrevolutionary coup, renouncing the dictatorship of the proletariat ..
  • aybolyt678
    aybolyt678 2 January 2021 19: 00
    +4
    Quote: apro
    How is this confirmed? Who is in charge of this system? The official? Or the creation of a national economic organism.

    great question! smile may be more important than an official in such a situation Transnational Corporations, in whose hands the trade ??? do they set purchase prices, pump out the financial content of the ruble?
  • ivan2022
    ivan2022 6 February 2021 20: 25
    +1
    Quote: apro
    How is this confirmed? Who is in charge in this system? An official? Or the creation of a national economic organism


    This was confirmed in the USSR primarily by the bourgeois structure of the state. "Soviets" - the legislative branch through which the ruling party conducts its program initiatives,
    and the Government-People's Commissariats, that is, the executive branch. Difference from cap structure. country (modern RF) while it was only in the broad powers of the Soviets and in the regular Congresses of Soviets (until 1936). That is, the government in the USSR was under the strict control of the elected legislative branch.
    But the device called the "dictatorship of the proletariat" presupposed a different, "proletarian democracy." That is, there is no real separation of powers due to the electivity and accountability of not only legislators, but also government bodies that manage finances and give orders to the security forces. This is the meaning of the slogan "All Power to the Soviets"! This so-called "state of the Paris Commune type" has never been realized in the USSR.
    1. ivan2022
      ivan2022 6 February 2021 20: 40
      +2
      Quote: ivan2022
      This so-called "state of the Paris Commune type" has never been realized in the USSR.


      I will add that it could not be realized due to the absence in Russia of the traditions of the mass labor movement and the semi-feudal psychology of the people. At any level of formal, legislative democracy, we will always have a Supreme Ruler - Tsar, Secretary General, President. In fact, not replaceable and representing the interests of only a narrow politically active stratum of society. With the complete apoliticality of the bulk of the population. What is the classic universal argument in favor of the current ruler? - "And for whom else"?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 2 January 2021 09: 12
    -5
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    to break the peasantry over the knee, although on the other hand the authorities probably did not have a special choice at that time,

    There is always a choice: if you don't know how, don't take it.

    In Stalin's words, the power imposed on the peasantry Tribute to carry out industrialization.
    But tribute is being levied on the defeated people, not their own.

    Yes, has been achieved good industrialization resultbut at a cost disasters and robberies of the Russian peasantry, leading to its extinction (mortality is more than births) already with late 1950, depopulation of the vast expanses of central Russia, abandoned million hectares arable land, a million empty houses, Russian cross,

    By 1989 disappeared from the face of Russia HALF of settlements (see census)!
    What war walked over Russia ?!

    The land for which they fought to death in 1917, just 60 years later - NO ONE needs it!
    the NEP was introduced, the cultivation of the land by hired labor (that is, farming) was allowed, since the Bolsheviks very well understood that it was simply impossible to jump into socialism in a peasant country like this.


    Yes, they did not understand anything: only when they completely manifested
    The Boljevist agricultural policy began to eat people in the country, and then it only dawned on them that something was wrong and it was necessary to change it.

    By the way, the land was added to the peasants after the thief as much ..... 9% to the pre-thief time. and did NOT solve the land issue in any way.

    Lenin's dream of large state farms was also realized: state farms were organized on the basis of some private estates. Which, in terms of its effectiveness, before the landlord ownership turned out to be as before the moon.

    Grain was required like air.

    For which they created collective farms, it is easier to collect from them. But they did not produce more bread, they began to take more of it.

    And the productivity of 1913 communist builders were able to reach already by ... 1956 (except for the only 1937)
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 2 January 2021 10: 26
      +5
      Pay attention to the "theoretical" study of the economic question of the future socialist system by Lenin until the age of 20. There is actually none.
      Hence the throwing in the economy, they took power, but they did not know what to do with the country. That's throwing. War communism, NEP and only then come to a collective form of ownership in the countryside, which is sabotaged by the kulaks and middle peasants.
      To send communists from the city to agriculture in the early 30s and 25 is not a good life.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 12: 01
        -2
        Quote: ee2100
        Hence the throwing in the economy, they took power, but they did not know what to do with the country. That's throwing. War communism, NEP and only then come to a collective form of ownership in the countryside, which is sabotaged by the kulaks and middle peasants.

        In part, you are right. Although Throwing in the economic agenda of the young Republic was not due to the fact that they did not know how to govern the country, but banal slippage in the theoretical model of Marx.
        By the way, the Revolution itself in a backward technical country was already in spite of everything that was written by the luminaries of the theory of communism.
        So the works of Lenin, Kamenev, Bukharin, Trotsky are "the attraction of a particular situation to the general requirements of the dialectics of building communism"! Even the notorious "industrialization" was necessary for the readiness to participate in the "inevitable world revolution."
        The priorities changed after Stalin's rapprochement with Bukharin. And only after that does the national, not the global violin of building a welfare state in a particular country begin to sound.
        Bukharin, at one time directly called on the peasants to "enrich yourself without fear of repression." His program for the development and consolidation of peasant farms was calculated for decades. The trouble was that it was necessary to develop industry not tomorrow, but now.
        I was always surprised by the sharp change in Stalin's position on this issue, who supported the domestic peasants until 27. From Vyacheslav Olegovich's article, I learned that Stalin personally traveled to Siberia, where, by the way, artisanal agriculture was developed. Having personally seen the utopian nature of the natural processes of collectivization, it is not surprising that he began to force them through the administrative resource.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 2 January 2021 13: 09
          -6
          Today is some kind of holiday! We were both "minus"! Are Marxists-Leninists? This should be noted.
          And in fact, power fell to the Bolsheviks - professional revolutionaries. Special thanks to the military experts for the victory in the civil war! And what to do with your promises, with slogans?
          "slip in the theoretical model of Marx." (c) How can one rely on the works of a person with zero experience in economics and who worked as a reporter for some time. What can a person know about the economy living on the money of his wife and close friend?
          It must be admitted that, although not from scratch, the Bolsheviks began to build a kind of state capitalism, but with a human face and a terrible grin.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 14: 19
            +2
            Quote: ee2100
            Today is some kind of holiday! We were both "minus"! Are Marxists-Leninists? This should be noted.

            We also stepped on the corn for the "crust bakers", we criticize without fervor and heat !!!

            For all their lack of experience, the Bolsheviks won both the revolution and the Civil War. Although most importantly, they prevailed in the heads and hearts of the common people.
            From scratch, by 1924, a system was created for the reproduction and education of cadres - October, pioneers, Komsomol members! Something that fools cannot do.
            According to military experts. The first two years of betrayal were many. I counted 14 people who went over to the whites. So the role of vonspesoa is still overestimated. Although it should be noted, and other specialists who automatically entered the nomenclature of power (scientists, professors, business executives). Even church ranks (clergy) - I'm not joking, a nomenklatura position, according to which in the late USSR all the relevant benefits and preferences were assumed.
            The role of the commissioners is not surprising. Also not from a good life.
            Well, and significant, if we talk about throwing - it's all about the sexual revolution! One society - "Down with shame", what it cost!
            hi
            My opinion of the winners is not judged, but discussing and knowing is very important and necessary!
            Regards, Vlad!
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 2 January 2021 14: 36
              0
              "My opinion, the winners are not judged" (c) to which Stalin replied - they are judged.
              The author touched upon a very difficult and ambiguous period in the life of the country and there is nothing wrong with that opinions differ to the opposite. Many mistakes were made, but the resultant is still in the black and no one argues with this.
              Sometime the current period in the modern history of the state will also end, and I would very much like the final result to be positive as well.
              1. your1970
                your1970 8 January 2021 00: 13
                0
                Quote: ee2100
                Many mistakes were made, but the resulting all the same, in the black and no one argues with this.
                if she were in the black, we would live in the USSR now .. What is there to argue with then - with a negative result
          2. Bar1
            Bar1 2 January 2021 15: 14
            -2
            Quote: ee2100
            How can you rely on the works of a person who has zero experience in economics and who worked as a reporter for some time.

            you know it turns out with Marx it's not so simple.
            We are now being told that Marx's "Capital" is a doctrine of the surplus value of a commodity, divorced from reality, and its socio-economic formations, on the contrary, are the stages through which humanity has passed.
            So, such an important proposition of Marx about the formations of human society, imagine the WRONG and distorted thought of Marx. And this distortion was carried out by a group of already Stalinist or post-Stalinist "theoreticians" of Marxism-Leninism. Specifically: social and economic formations according to Marx are
            -asian
            -antique
            -feudal
            -German
            or according to the late Marx
            -asian
            -antique
            -German
            and what do we see in the textbook of Scientific Communism?
            -primitive communal / primitive communism
            -slavery
            -feudalism
            -capitalism \ imperialism
            -socialism / communism
            So this list has nothing to do with Marx. What do we see in today's life? That socialism, which Marx did not include in his list of formations, died happily and will probably never rise again, and Russia again switched to capitalism, a distinctive feature of which is private ownership of the means of production.
            https://wiki2.org/ru/Общественно-экономическая_формация
            I am referring to the wikipedia article, I hope it is at least true.
            Those. it turns out that Marx said one thing, and we were forced to think differently. But then the question: What was this "Asian" way of society? Maybe this is the way of the country about which they are trying to forget us, i.e. Tartary / Dardaria?
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 2 January 2021 15: 24
              +1
              Marx revised the works of Adam Smith and other economists and put forward several of his theories, of which they remain.
              I remember my colleague and teacher. He gave such an example concerning different theories. In those days (1981) he shocked me a lot. He asked if I had seen pornographic pictures with group (multi-level) sex, I answered in the affirmative. To which he said, imagine that all the people in the photo will begin to move and all this structure will disintegrate. So are theories. We presented a theory - everything seems to be correct, but in practice it does not work - it disintegrates.
              In your comment, “theory” was changed, but for me this theory (of Marx) is not viable by definition.
              What is happening before our eyes is cheating, incl. and it's obvious in history!
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 2 January 2021 15: 51
                0
                Quote: ee2100
                What is happening before our eyes is cheating, incl. and it's obvious in history!

                yeah, your teacher was great.
                The conclusion of this article in Wikipedia is this: you need to read the works of the classics in the original, because there is a lie around and everyone is trying to deceive and mislead.
                For example, there was such a writer of the 19th century Jules Verne, he wrote such a fantastic novel, as usual, but with a meaning, this is Mikhail Strogoff. A book about the war between Tartary and Russia. But this is in the original, in French, and we got a translation like this: about the war of Russia and Bukharia. This is the arrogance of the OI and the censorship that erased even such hints from history.

                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 2 January 2021 16: 09
                  +1
                  Not a "teacher", but a colleague and teacher. In a university, for such liberties, I would immediately go out.
                2. ee2100
                  ee2100 2 January 2021 16: 38
                  -3
                  It is difficult to disagree with you. There are documents (maps), as some say there are about 1000 of them, with the designation of Tartary, but there is no country or territory with such a name in the OI.
                  Despite all your attempts to "stir up" the local gurus in order to get at least some intelligible answer to this discrepancy, the result is zero. And he will not be to others - they themselves do not know. It is easier to blame the opponent for all sins, incl. New Chronicle, Klesovshchina, etc. the easier it is to say - I don't know. They were not taught this at the university.
                  Verne has not read this novel. I will try to correct this omission.
          3. kalibr
            2 January 2021 15: 21
            0
            Quote: ee2100
            What can a person know about the economy living on the money of his wife and close friend?

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 2 January 2021 13: 19
          0
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Although Throwing in the economic agenda of the young Republic was not due to the fact that they did not know how to govern the country,

          Namely, that they did not know and did not understand ANYTHING in this.

          For the so-called. the "government" consisted of already over-aged, absolutely inexperienced, who had never worked with anyone and had never managed anything before, lazy theoreticians.

          " В EXPERIENCE interesting participate! " (Lenin in the preface to the publication "State and Revolution)

          No one will entrust such "experienced" builders with the construction of a yard "point".

          And only by blunt poking in all directions, which cost the country innumerable suffering, did the NEP come to the same.

          What came true from the program "State and the revolution" of Lenin "Yes, practically nothing.
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Having personally seen the utopian nature of the natural processes of collectivization, it is not surprising that he began to force them through the administrative resource.

          You don’t know how, don’t take it .. None of the people agreed to either the "afterburner" at his passive expense, or to the uninterrupted, offensive lie to him about his "secure" life
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 15: 19
            +2
            Quote: Olgovich
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Although Throwing in the economic agenda of the young Republic was not due to the fact that they did not know how to govern the country,

            Namely, that they did not know and did not understand ANYTHING in this.

            For the so-called. the "government" consisted of already over-aged, absolutely inexperienced, who had never worked with anyone and had never managed anything before, lazy theoreticians.

            " В EXPERIENCE interesting participate! " (Lenin in the preface to the publication "State and Revolution)

            No one will entrust such "experienced" builders with the construction of a yard "point".

            And only by blunt poking in all directions, which cost the country innumerable suffering, did the NEP come to the same.

            What came true from the program "State and the revolution" of Lenin "Yes, practically nothing.
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Having personally seen the utopian nature of the natural processes of collectivization, it is not surprising that he began to force them through the administrative resource.

            You don’t know how, don’t take it .. None of the people agreed to either the "afterburner" at his passive expense, or to the uninterrupted, offensive lie to him about his "secure" life


            Olegovich, if objectively the provisional government was even worse. And it is not a fact that if “third parties” won, they did better.
            Which White Guard general had experience in running the state?
            Kolchak, Denikin, Wrangel could not cope with their armies. Kornilov could not even bring the mutiny to mind. Mannerheim managed to do in little Finland no less than others, he was lucky that he was not remembered in time. More precisely, they tried not to remember. Or what Baron Uggern did in Mongolia.
            You can, at least how much, talk about the Constituent Assembly and the foundations of democracy, all these are hypothetical waving hands, or rather fingers at the keyboard. Experienced state administrators were not observed in Russia in 1917, and the only one who had it "surrendered the Empire as a squadron" and considered himself a citizen of Romanov.
            Regards, Vlad!
            1. Jünger
              Jünger 2 January 2021 15: 41
              -9
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Which White Guard general had experience in running the state?

              People who have been managing divisions and armies for a long time in a big war, by definition, have a better chance of successfully running the state than a bunch of chattering journalists, half-trained seminarians and lawyers.
              Alekseev, for example, is actually the head of the Russian Army in WWI.
              Only now we don’t need a song again - they have lost and therefore they are not suitable all around.
              The question was about experience - it was.
              Any manager of a Turkish five-star hotel has an order of magnitude more skills and sense in government than the talkers Ulyanov and Bronstein.
              The latter have gained this experience at the expense of millions of lives.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 16: 14
                +5
                Quote: Junger
                People who have been managing divisions and armies for a long time in a big war, by definition, have a better chance of successfully running the state than a bunch of chattering journalists, half-trained seminarians and lawyers.

                You're right! The experience was simply gorgeous, many have implemented it.
                For example, ataman Semyonov and von Unger, I don't even have words, some emotions and obscene ones. In fact, “experience” is an interesting concept, but professional military men were beaten by their subordinates, drop-outs by lawyers and seminarians. By the way, the latter blinded such a not frail "empire" that has been a superpower for half a century. And I’m not sure about the ability of the generals of the Russian Empire to strike at such a thing in principle.
                1. Jünger
                  Jünger 2 January 2021 16: 56
                  -6
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  For example, ataman Semyonov and von Unger, I don't even have words, some emotions

                  What have these characters got to do with it? In WWI, they commanded small formations like a hundred.
                  The question was
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Which White Guard general had experience in running the state?

                  This is definitely not Ungern, not Semyonov. And not Makhno and not Dybenko .. Admiral and scientific worker Kolchak is also a dubious manager.
                  But there were many generals fit for management and commanders of large masses in WWI and civilian.
                  Alekseev, Denikin, Wrangel - quite.
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  but professional military men were beaten by their subordinates, drop-outs by lawyers and seminarians.

                  I wrote at the expense of what - at the expense of hundreds of thousands and millions of lives of my supporters. Lawyers and seminarians had a good tongue, due to which they talked a lot of people.
                  The Volunteer Army, in which there were thousands, drove the Bolshevik armies of hundreds of thousands almost to Moscow. All this time, seminarians and Jews studied, while their supporters lay dung into the ground.
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  By the way, the latter blinded such a not frail "empire" that has been a superpower for half a century.

                  The Russian Empire, of course, was not a superpower since the second half of the 19th century, but it confidently entered the top three or five leading world powers. For me, it's better this way than running ahead of everyone and shining with your bare bottom.
                  I have a suspicion that people who are thrilled by the superpower of the USSR have a certain immaturity and dissatisfaction with their current state.
                  They say everyone was afraid of the USSR, which means I am so scary, because I lived in it smile Does this comfort you in your current life?
                  For me, it would be better if tens of millions of Russians were alive and were in Russia, and Gagarin, Ivanov or Sidorov could fly into space third / fifth. And would not fly at all - and that's okay. The Chinese hell knows when they flew and nothing - did not bent.
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 17: 14
                    +2
                    Jünger, I answer again for you.
                    In fact, "experience" is an interesting concept, but professional military men were beaten by their subordinates, drop-outs by lawyers and seminarians.


                    Conclusion, apparently not that generals Alekseev, Denikin and Wrangel were literate military men, if they could not defeat the former lieutenants, the staff of captains and podesouls.
                    So this is to become a doubt about their professionalism in general and their ability to manage in particular.
                    The rest is bubbles and drooling Herr Jünger.
                    1. Jünger
                      Jünger 2 January 2021 17: 22
                      -6
                      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                      apparently not that generals Alekseev, Denikin and Wrangel were literate soldiers, since they could not defeat the former lieutenants, the headquarters of captains and podesouls.

                      This is the same nonsense as - "Hannibal was not such a good military leader if he lost to the Romans with their militia army"
                      or
                      "Napoleon was not such a genius if he lost to the serfs and feudal lords."
                      Losing a war, for your information, can happen not only because of the qualifications of a losing military leader. A lot of factors play a role.
                      But you can continue to console yourself with the superpower of the USSR and the genius of seminarians and Jews.
                      Maybe it will brighten up life smile
                    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 18: 25
                      +1
                      Losing a war, for your information, can happen not only because of the qualifications of a losing military leader.

                      It's not my fault, he came himself !!!
                      Fairy tales for the poor!

                      But you can continue to console yourself with the superpower of the USSR and the genius of seminarians and Jews.

                      Without remorse, I am equally proud of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union.
                    3. Jünger
                      Jünger 2 January 2021 19: 56
                      -5
                      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                      Without remorse, I am equally proud of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union.

                      This is strange in my opinion. On the one hand, there is a prison of peoples with a Black Hundred ideology and serfdom, slaves and boyars, obscurantism, and on the other, the bright friendship of peoples, freedom, equality, brotherhood lol
                      Smacks of schizophrenia, comrade smile But I think she is progressing in society today.
                2. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 2 January 2021 18: 21
                  -2
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Conclusion, apparently not that generals Alekseev, Denikin and Wrangel were literate military men, if they could not defeat the former lieutenants, the staff of captains and podesouls.

                  The conclusion is fundamentally wrong, because the initial data is wrong: competent military men fought naked hands (up to March 1919) against the lieutenants, but armed weapon 12 million Russian army, seized by the usurpers of power and took the whole country by the throat with HUNGER (grain monopoly).

                  Let us also recall the system of hostage taking and the most severe punishment of families of deserters and even fellow villagers (more than 40% of KA are deserters)
                3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 19: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The conclusion is fundamentally wrong, because the initial data are incorrect: competent military men fought with their bare hands (right up to March 1919) against lieutenants, but armed with weapons of the 12 million Russian army, seized by the usurpers of power and took the whole country by the throat of HUNGER (grain monopoly).


                  There are no right or wrong in the Civil War. All the losers are in it. The question is the price!
                  How decent were Denikin and Wrangel who accepted the help of the interventionists. Why are they Olegovich better than the Seven Boyars, who called the prince Vladislav to the table, or the False Dmitrievs who made a mess with turmoil?
                  Three of my family began to fight the "whites"! Two went to reds because of the kinks in the white movement. Okay, one because of blood feud. Fulfilling Kolchak's order, they scourged his brother to death by drawing lots. The second great-grandfather went to the Reds after the White Guards fired a cannon at the church.
                  Fine? The third disappeared in a hospital near Omsk.
                  I already wrote that White Czechs were doing in the Urals. In part, this is a mistake and the Bolsheviks. There were bends on all sides.
                  One can count sabers and bayonets for a long time, but if the White movement was so correct, why did the people not support it?
                  And lastly, the price of the white generals is even more depreciated, he hesitated to remember that the Red Army was defeated in Poland!
                  Conclusion, they are weaker than not only the Bolsheviks, but also the Poles!
                4. Jünger
                  Jünger 2 January 2021 20: 03
                  -3
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  How decent were Denikin and Wrangel who accepted the help of the interventionists.

                  And when Vladimir Ilyich rolled across Germany during the war - how decent was he?
                  Or when he called for the conversion of the imperialist war into a civil war?
                  That's really, in nature, "a worthy citizen". This was at a time when Denikin and Wrangel were shedding blood on the fronts for the Motherland, together with the "interventionists" (allies).
                5. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 2 January 2021 20: 05
                  -2
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  There are no right or wrong in the Civil War. All the losers are in it. The question is the price!

                  Whoever untied is to blame.

                  And this was done by absolutely BOLSHEVIKS alone, not giving a damn about the will and choice of the PEOPLE.

                  By the way, can you explain to me: WHY tens of millions of citizens who chose ONE power for themselves, had to submit to ANOTHER, established by ... losers?
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  How decent were Denikin and Wrangel who accepted the help of the interventionists

                  Allies, Cote, with whom they fought together against the German invaders. The invaders, whom national traitors SAVED from starvation, war at the cost of selling to Russia and thus prolonged the world slaughter.

                  And yes, it was the Entente that annulled the Brest betrayal and expelled the German invaders from Russia
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  ... Why are they Olegovich better than the Seven Boyars, who called the prince Vladislav to the table, or the False Dmitrievs who made a mess with turmoil?

                  What kind of "Vladislav" they called, what nonsense?
                  Power-Constituent Assembly of the PEOPLE OF RUSSIA is their only goal.
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  why did the people not support him?


                  Let me remind you FACT: the voluntary conscription to the spacecraft at the beginning of 1918 FULLY failed.

                  And to eat people, what, eh? If you want to survive with your family and eat and not be sued, go under compulsion into the army.

                  Well, the stupid lie about the "land" also played a role, yes.

                  Then it came, but too late ... These are the red partisans in 1932:
                  “This is what the Soviet regime brought us to. We, collective farmers, eat quinoa and eat all sorts of surrogates. At the present time, everyone is against the Soviet government. The war will begin, all the red partisans, as one, will go against the deceiving Bolsheviks, i.e.because we all learned what is the power of the Soviets - in robbery and violence».

                  Zyryanovsky district. “It is enough that once you have won on your neck; now we sit naked and hungry. If only the war began, the Bolsheviks will no longer have to go out on our necks
                  Istmat ".

                  Etc. There are thousands of such facts
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  And lastly, the price of the white generals is even more depreciated, he hesitated to remember that the Red Army was defeated in Poland!
                  Conclusion, they are weaker than not only the Bolsheviks, but also the Poles!

                  Poles of 1920 are France, USA and South Caucasus. So - "by.

                  White generals stopped the Germans on TWO THOUSAND km to the west Bolsheviks.

                  And yes, the powerful army of the Kaiser is a hundred times stronger than the six-year-old upstart Wehrmacht, do not forget about it.
                6. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 20: 30
                  -1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  What kind of "Vladislav" they called, what nonsense?

                  See Polish intervention early 17th century. Troubles. It's a sin not to know your history!

                  Well, the last one, where in my comments I admired Lenin at least once?

                  As far as Nicholas II was not a worthless emperor, his own generals were the first to betray him. Which, by the way, he raised from the mud to the princes. Including the leaders of the white movement!
                  The February revolution took place, the tsar was overthrown! Not surprisingly, they were next. A century and a half before the October Revolution, it was written - the revolution is eating its children !!!
                  The rules of the game were known to everyone except Nicholas II, who showed himself to be a rag. Even his wife accepted the arrest! Once again, in civil wars, there are no whites and fluffy ones.
                  Therefore, I personally cut off my respect for General Kornilov until his arrest of the royal family, and the rest before their participation in the revolution or the Civil War.
                  Although I'm lying, Denikin and Wrangel refused to cooperate with Nazi Germany, this is respectful.
                  For the rest, if some would appear firmness, confidence and ingenuity, and the rest - decency ....)
                  Then I believe we could live in another reality, where Kornilov and Wrangel were famous polar explorers, Kornilov was a traveler and scout, Denikin and Alekseev were military theorists, while participants in the First World War and renowned military leaders.
                  But alas.
                7. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 2 January 2021 22: 11
                  -3
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

                  See Polish intervention early 17th century. Troubles. It's a sin not to know your history!

                  You read YOURSELF - about WHOM you are and, accordingly, I said "they":
                  Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  ... Than THEY Olegovich is better than the Seven Boyars who called the prince Vladislav to the table or False Dmitriev who made a mess with turmoil

                  What is your answer:
                  What "Vladislav" THEY name, what nonsense?
                  .
                  Those. we were talking about white , and now what are you talking about? belay So what "Vladislav" was the name of the whites, as someone did in the 17th century?
                  Nonsense...
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  As far as Nicholas II was not a worthless emperor, his own generals were the first to betray him. Which, by the way, he raised from the mud to the princes. IN including the leaders of the white movement!

                  Prove yes. ...
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  The rules of the game were known to everyone except Nicholas II, who showed himself to be a rag.

                  He wanted to avoid 10-15 million GW victims killed by non-rags.
                  These are NOT rags for me - no words
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Therefore, I personally cut off my respect for General Kornilov until his arrest of the royal family, and the rest before their participation in the revolution or the Civil War.

                  Kornilov carried out the order of the VP, to obedience to which called both Emperors-and Nikolai and Mikhail.

                  White generals fought ON THE FRONT, while the socialists made both revolutions and entered this tragedy later than everyone else and by force.

                  You don't want to answer the question:
                  By the way, can you explain to me: WHY tens of millions of citizens who chose ONE power for themselves, had to submit to ANOTHER, established by ... losers?
                  ...Sorry. By the way, NOBODY answers it
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Then I believe we could live in another reality, where Kornilov and Wrangel were famous polar explorers, Kornilov was a traveler and scout, Denikin and Alekseev were military theorists, while participants in the First World War and renowned military leaders.
                  But alas.

                  They are in reality the heroes of the country who tried to save the people and the country from the catastrophe into which it plunged, and the result of this catastrophe was, as a result, the Russian cross and the borders of the 17th century.

                  And the "heroes" opposing them, in the majority, interrupted each other with incredible cruelty, pouring at the same unthinkable abuse, it is already not clear today who they have and who is not.

                  Who, by the way, are the heroes of the Reds in the Civil War?
                8. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 22: 32
                  +1
                  Olegovich, I wrote about "intervention"! And naturally he gave an example of "intervention"! Learn to think wider and without clichés. If I didn’t know you, I would have interrupted the discussion long ago.

                  Alas, there are no heroes in the Civil War! For me personally, neither white nor red. I simply state that the Bolsheviks won. Why? Because they were supported by the people. Causes? This is not for me, but for the people.

                  Your heroes made many mistakes, however, the Reds are no less, but the armed forces of foreign states, the Bolsheviks, unlike the whites, did not invite and did not use their help.
                  I repeat the question, why are the white generals better than the false Dmitriy and the seven-boyars, who provoked the invasion of the invaders. Or is the tsar Shuisky a fellow who attracted the Swedes to the fight against false Dmitry?
                  How did the Civil War end if the white movement wins? A new pillar world. Only they would bite off from Russia not one state, but 12!

                  White generals betrayed their king, and then the people! Alas, this is a fact. Sad but try to refute it, and not "sissy crumple" about the bare-booty white movement supported by 12 foreign states.
                9. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 3 January 2021 09: 00
                  -1
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Olegovich, I wrote about "intervention"! And naturally he gave an example of "intervention"! Learn to think wider and without clichés. If I didn’t know you, I would have interrupted the discussion long ago.

                  I propose for the third time to answer about "Vladislav" invited by White, as in the example you mentioned.

                  For example, absolutely inappropriate, as we can see, with respect to the GW 1918
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Alas, there are no heroes in the Civil War! For me personally, neither white nor red. I simply state that the Bolsheviks won. Why? Because they were supported by the people. Causes? This is not for me, but for the people.

                  We all have equal rights in defining heroes for ourselves. And the Bolsheviks, I can state, completely lost, see. The catastrophe of 1991 and decided their fate yes, people, without supporting them with a single word
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Your heroes made many mistakes, however, the Reds are no less, but the armed forces of foreign states, the Bolsheviks, unlike the whites, did not invite and did not use their help.

                  The invaders themselves came, solved YOUR questions, not whites, and this was the result of the activities of the Bolsheviks: there was, you know, the Great War and the new ally of the German invaders, which became the Bolsheviks, they could not admit it. How the USSR postkpil with Iran in 1941.

                  Didn't the Bolsheviks use other aid? It's funny, but who threw them into the rear of Russia? Who gave them peace so that they could kill their citizens? And foreign mercenaries by an independent conscience of Latvia, Estonia, etc., cannot be "forgotten" at all.
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  I repeat the question, why are the white generals better than the false Dmitriy and the seven-boyars, who provoked the invasion of the invaders. Or is the tsar Shuisky a fellow who attracted the Swedes to the fight against false Dmitry?

                  You have been answered TWO times already: there were NO "Vladislavs and Polish kings" for Russia, the interventionists were brought to Russia by the exclusively treacherous world of the Bolsheviks, before them, I remind you, there was NO intervention.
                  And it was not the Bolsheviks who took out the invaders, but they left by themselves, having solved THEIR problems at the end of WWI. And they didn't give a damn about whites.

                  And let me remind you again: the Entente liberated Russia from the German invaders and expelled the Japanese, she also recognized Russia as the winner of WWI in Versailles
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  How did the Civil War end if the white movement wins? New pillar the world. Only they would bite off from Russia not one state, but 12!

                  You probably mean the Stolbovskiy world? So such worlds were concluded by the Bolsheviks immeasurably with ALL neighbors, generously paying for their defeats by the lands, Russian people and Russian gold-see. Latvia, Poland, Estonia, etc. And the Brest Peace, the most important - do not forget. The Bolsheviks did NOT abolish it, they signed it, FOREVER.
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  White generals betrayed their king, and then the people! Alas, this is a fact.

                  You were asked to prove these bare words, but, alas, you could not.

                  The Bolsheviks betrayed the Russian people and the belligerent Russia with a thief's blow in the back and the Brest betrayal.
                  And these are FACTS, not hypothetical "pillar" worlds of whites that you make up.

                  Which, let me remind you, fiercely fought with ALL the invaders in RTV, RK, RYAV, PMV, in contrast to the Bolsheviks who beat in the back at the same time.

                  You could not, for the THIRD time already, answer a simple, but fundamental question:
                  By the way, can you explain to me: WHY tens of millions of citizens who chose ONE power for themselves, had to submit to ANOTHER, established by ... losers?

                  Indicative, yes ..
              2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 22: 37
                0
                ... Kornilov carried out the order of the VP, to which both Emperor Nicholas and Mikhail called for obedience.

                All subjects in this tragicomedy made a fatal mistake. And the question is, when did Mikhail Alexandrovich manage to be crowned?
    2. Oprichnik
      Oprichnik 3 January 2021 01: 09
      0
      Dear Pane Vladislav, it is somehow unscientific and immature to discuss military talents without taking into account the availability of material means of warfare. The Whites constantly lacked weapons and ammunition. And no matter how genius any general is, he will not do ANYTHING without ammunition and other supplies. And also about the ability of the military to manage. I have repeatedly witnessed how a retired major or colonel successfully put things in order in an organization or an enterprise, replacing a civilian profile "specialist" in this place.
  • kalibr
    2 January 2021 18: 06
    +1
    Quote: Junger
    I have a suspicion that people who are thrilled by the superpower of the USSR have a certain immaturity and dissatisfaction with their current state.

    This is not only your suspicion. This is a fact proven by psychologists.
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 2 January 2021 19: 38
      -3
      Shake hands, colleague hi
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 2 January 2021 17: 50
    -6
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Olegovich, if objectively the provisional government was even worse.

    The EaP had only one goal - to prepare the world's first general and free elections. All. And for this purpose it did an excellent job: Russia first country in the worldwhere they took place ..
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Which White Guard general had experience in running the state?
    Kolchak, Denikin, Wrangel could not cope with their armies. Kornilov could not even bring the mutiny to mind.

    1. Perfectly coped with huge military groups long before WWI, during WWI and after.
    Their ONLY goal was not power, but the return of power to the people (and then let him decide EVERYTHING) stolen from him by the Bolsheviks.

    In the Government State of the Russian were experienced economists, lawyers, practitioners
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    You can, at least as much as you roll about the Constituent Assembly and the foundations of democracy, all these are hypothetical waving hands, or rather fingers at the keyboard.

    One detail: the Constituent Assembly was recognized absolutely ALL both in Russia and abroad.
    And this is NO civil war, NO intervention, NO de-instrumentalization of the country, NO wild and terrible human and material losses, NO lost for the restoration of the already existing years 1917-1930.

    It is YES to honorable peace, YES to peace in the country, YES to development since 1918
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    and the only one who had it "surrendered the Empire as a squadron" and considered himself a citizen of Romanov.

    In order to avoid civil war during the Great War, he made a great sacrifice of his fate and his family.

    And the GW would not have been if it had not been for the thief in the back.
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    From scratch by 1924 was created system of reproduction and education frames - october, pioneers, Komsomol members! Something that fools cannot do.

    belay lol AND WHERE is her ... "pupils" in elite of the USSR?!

    By her pure products and there were EBN, Gorbaty, Shuvarnadze, Krvvchuks, Yakovlevs and their clones at all smaller levels.
    And the real Bolsheviks turned out to be a piece, irreplaceable commodity, brought up by ... tsarism.

    Yes, and if you read them, WHAT an abomination they said to each other, then ...
    1. aybolyt678
      aybolyt678 2 January 2021 19: 26
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich
      And the real Bolsheviks turned out to be a piece, irreplaceable commodity, brought up by ... tsarism.

      +++ for such a plus ..... in general, the more I think about it, the more I come to the conviction that all the good that we have from the state is the product of the labor of those very best, "piece" people who in a difficult moment for the country became at the helm, and with blood and sweat overwhelmed the situation. The question is - how to bypass these most "difficult minutes" to calculate these very "piece" people?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 2 January 2021 20: 17
        -4
        Quote: aybolyt678
        The question is - how to bypass these most "difficult minutes" to calculate these very "piece" people?

        The question is: HOW is this a powerful system of upbringing, organized under the full and unlimited sole power and ideology of the Bolsheviks, ..... it could NOT reproduce even for the elite at least something normal, having spawned an innumerable number of hoopoes such as EBNs, MGs, Yakovlevs, etc. ?! belay request

        Why weren't real Bolsheviks born, why did no one go against the EBNv in 19701980-XNUMX, underground, to barricades, etc.?
        1. depressant
          depressant 2 January 2021 21: 04
          +4
          Olgovich, darling, but they fell in the Second World War on the battlefields. Remember, according to official data, 8,7 million "piece" and perished. The new generation of "piece" was killed. Convinced, powerful, joyful, strong is the generation that is leading. "If I die, consider me a communist!"
          The loss of the "piece" was irreparable. Because there was no one to bring up the new "piece" of the growing up. On the other hand, many logisticians survived. We have preserved the territory, but the projected future has not. Because our future had to be built and supported by people who were gone.
          1. aybolyt678
            aybolyt678 2 January 2021 22: 02
            +3
            Quote: depressant
            Because our future was to be built and supported by people who were gone

            there is also a concept in biology - the instinct of dominance. It is one of the most important factors responsible for the progress of the development of animals and humans, respectively. In humans, this instinct may look like ambition, as well as a lust for power. Therefore, under any system, social order, etc., especially under Soviet Power with its social lifts, there were people who, using Marxist-Leninist slogans, as a ritual of loyalty, grabbed hold of the authorities and naturally wanted dividends. And here the social order interferes !! Khrushch, for example, freed the members of the Central Committee of the Party from any responsibility ... and away we go ... the "piece" people were basically put in a madhouse. So that without a process. In those years, the number of such patients went off scale. As one of the examples, remember how Shurik escaped from the Caucasian captive from the prison? it is an echo of those times.
          2. depressant
            depressant 2 January 2021 22: 43
            +4
            Colleague aybolyt 678, I happened to read about how our outstanding scientist, Theorist of Cosmonautics, Academician Mstislav Vsevolodovich Keldysh, being elected to the Central Committee of the CPSU, attended one of the meetings of this structure. Arriving home, he said to his wife something like, "There are no Soviet people there!"
            After a short time he was gone - suffocated in a closed garage, the engine of his car was running. Either murder or suicide - it doesn't matter! The era of the "piece" was killed in the war, and then the era of the vile and weak began. So the titans were leaving, the fragments of a failed future. Ordinary citizens did not understand this at first, but the era persistently whispered. The continuity of ideological generations, the continuity for which our people endured so much, was not just violated, but killed. Was it possible to overcome the petty-bourgeois nature of our population in 20 pre-war years and in less than 10 post-war years? You can't! For it is an instant by historical standards. And from this somehow especially painful - both from what was great, and from the fact that it passed without leaving a trace. Only in the memory of rapidly passing generations. You have to live, in what is given, trying to influence the unsightly given, in order to pull it out of the swamp at least a little bit, but the futility of efforts gives rise to sadness.
            I'll wait for a conversation about farmers, it's not so simple there.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 2 January 2021 22: 51
          -1
          Quote: depressant
          Olgovich, my dear, but they perished in the Second World War on the battlefields. Remember, according to official data, 8,7 million "piece" and perished.

          1. There are no such figures at all, are we talking about the communists ?.

          2.
          Quote: depressant
          The loss of the "piece" was irreparable. Because there was no one to bring up the new "piece" of the growing up.

          Ie to bring up "piece" in 1917-26 there was someone, and in 1927-1941, these years have not died, already .... to someone? Isn't it funny yourself? And what, further, under Stalin himself, the system of training cadres ... died ?! Tell us WHAT "Trotskyists" were taught by the "Trotskyists" in schools from 1945 to 1953!

          3. Do you understand that you deeply insult many MILLIONS of surviving communists who have gone through the Second World War, the same Pokryshkin, Kozhedub, Zhukov, Brezhnev and other millions of FRONTOVIKS?
          And MILLIONS of home front workers, too!

          and yes: tsarism, therefore, was able to educate even "educators", and socialism .... neither them nor the perceived ones: multiple EBNs are an example of this.
        3. depressant
          depressant 2 January 2021 23: 35
          +3
          Olgovich ... Have you ever been offended by a war - at least by the edge? Have you witnessed the terrible death of many people? Let's say, continuously and for 4 years. Have you ever raised a collective farm in a shell-shocked and crippled state, in which there are only women and no equipment? Do you know what metal fatigue is? This is when the part looks still good, but inside there are shells that drastically reduce its strength, and there is no specialist who could identify fatigue and replace the invigorating but worn part with a new one, sending the old one to a well-deserved rest. And there is no new one in stock. And the specialist died.
          And now, through the euphoria of the post-war years, the depression of an entire people begins to germinate - in every family someone is killed, and the leader's son is killed, and over time the leader himself dies. And the great survivors do not have the strength to keep the general bar of ideology at the proper height. Without lowering their own, they cannot support the bar of those who are higher in the hierarchy ...
          Olgovich, do not humiliate your interlocutors with your patriotism, while trumping great names, thereby making it clear that the interlocutors are unpatriotic, and even fools. This is called audience manipulation, and it is not good. Attributing to me disrespect for great names, which is contrary to the truth, unworthily attracting them to witnesses of my alleged meanness, you are trying not to defend the greats, but your innocence through humiliation of your interlocutor, through speculation with great names. Oh, how bad it is! I can imagine how handsome Kozhedub, sitting next to Joseph Vissarionovich at the same table in Slavi, frowns, listening to you)))
          Here, I went on the topic by accident and got it in the face)))
        4. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 00: 02
          +2
          Quote: depressant
          This is when the part looks still good, but inside there are shells that drastically reduce its strength, and there is no specialist who could identify fatigue and replace the invigorating but worn part with a new one, sending the old one to a well-deserved rest.

          Lyudmila Yakovlevna! Call me! hi
        5. Olgovich
          Olgovich 3 January 2021 09: 20
          -1
          Quote: depressant
          Olgovich ... Have you ever been offended by a war - at least by the edge? Have you witnessed the terrible death of many people? Let's say, continuously and for 4 years. Have you ever raised a collective farm in a shell-shocked and crippled state, in which there are only women and no equipment? Do you know what metal fatigue is? This is when the part looks still good, but inside there are shells that drastically reduce its strength, and there is no specialist who could identify fatigue and replace the invigorating but worn part with a new one, sending the old one to a well-deserved rest. And there is no new one in stock. And the specialist died.
          And now, through the euphoria of the post-war years, the depression of an entire people begins to germinate - in every family someone is killed, and the leader's son is killed, and over time the leader himself dies. And the great survivors do not have the strength to keep the general bar of ideology at the proper height. Without lowering their own, they cannot support the bar of those who are higher in the hierarchy ...
          Olgovich, do not humiliate your interlocutors with your patriotism, while trumping great names, thereby making it clear that the interlocutors are unpatriotic, and even fools. This is called audience manipulation, and it is not good. Attributing to me disrespect for great names, which is contrary to the truth, unworthily attracting them to witnesses of my alleged meanness, you are trying not to defend the greats, but your innocence through humiliation of your interlocutor, through speculation with great names. Oh, how bad it is! I can imagine how handsome Kozhedub, sitting next to Joseph Vissarionovich at the same table in Slavi, frowns, listening to you)))
          Here, I went on the topic by accident and got it in the face)))

          That is, to my quite SPECIFIC objections, you have only empty water.
          As for the "insults", I suggest, once again, to think specifically for YOU, because this is not good :.

          depressant (lyudmila yakovlevna kuznetsova
          Because the new "piece" of the growing up already there was no one to educate... On the other hand, many logisticians survived.
          WHO wrote about Zhueov, Maresyev, Pokryshkin and other MILLIONS of front-line soldiers and home front workers? ...

          And yes, tell us, what bullets whistled over the heads of Mikoyan, Kaganovich, Molotov, etc., and how many were killed in the Second World War?

          And show me WHERE Stalin said about the catastrophe in raising children ... Trotskyists after the Second World War?
          Ioi he, in your opinion, did not understand anything?
        6. depressant
          depressant 3 January 2021 09: 45
          +1
          Forwarded the question to me? )))
          What about you personally? Have you ever watched how the war, having touched your area only by the edge, takes away its ugly bloody victims, but you are alive. Physically alive, but in your soul you become dead - have you ever? I happened to, and with me it is forever, look at my nickname. And how are you with this case? If not, then you will never understand what happened to the country after the Second World War. You can, holding in your hand piles of papers with statistics, shake them as a source of objective information, but it is impossible to understand, to feel the subconscious depression of the nation ... That is what you think, why the war in Chechnya was started, and it was just started?
          However, what to say to you! Without feeling real life, you judge it by numbers convenient for you hi
        7. Olgovich
          Olgovich 3 January 2021 11: 18
          -2
          Quote: depressant
          If not, then you will never understand what happened to the country after the Second World War.

          You are a member of it, what do you say SO? No? Likewise, you do not have any rights to declare anything on their behalf. Only the participants have this right.

          And on the question under discussion: the system of training "cadres" of the Bolshevik Edita turned out to be a puff: it prepared only EBNs and Kravchuk, regardless of the Second World War.

          And yes, 78% of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks of the 17th Congress (all-OLD BOLSHEVIKS) were not killed at all by the Nazis, like half of that congress, as well as the WHOLE first composition of the Politburo, ALL the first composition of the SNK and reprinted HALF of the members of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks -1937 - they are not them either.

          And most importantly, no one is allowed to OFFENSE the surviving veterans of the Second World War (including mine) with the words "SOMEONE". They are very much even "WHO" and they raised their beautiful children and raised the country from ruins.

          Rђ RІRѕS, Never lost anywhere The elite of Mikoyans - Kaganovichs - Molotovs - could not bring up anything, it turned out to be barren, a tree.

          These are the FACTS hi
        8. your1970
          your1970 8 January 2021 00: 35
          +1
          In your opinion, it turns out that the system was incapable of self-reproduction and self-cleaning?
          Then the death of the USSR is not an accident, but a natural process.
        9. depressant
          depressant 8 January 2021 01: 37
          0
          No.
          Not a natural and unnatural process.
          It's just that the country's leadership did not realize, did not understand what happened as a result of the Second World War, there was no such experience.
          The new economic formation based on an unprecedented ideology did not manage to get stronger, to gain sufficient momentum, such that the country could not be stopped. Even if someone hit the brakes hard.
          The military strike was too strong, the losses were too great, the psychological trauma of the survivors was too high, the West's rush too powerful immediately after the end of hostilities - everything was too much. We were killed then, colleague. Stalin died, and we too began to die slowly. The population did not understand this, but at a subconscious level, the social organism gave a signal for self-destruction. You know, because of grief, longing, hopelessness - they get sick and die. By that time, we did not have time to develop a self-healing mechanism in the form of a stable, optimistic system of social and economic relations that suits everyone. Immunity against rubbish has not yet developed. They didn't let him fold! We did not have sufficient historical time for this. And now this process of dying, which began then, continues. This is in contrast to the West, where the system of their socio-economic relations has been worked out for centuries, and the West, having learned to live in it for a long time interval, has learned to reproduce it. The West has recovered. We are not.
          Pay attention, it is not for nothing that in recent years Putin has been preoccupied with the search for a national idea as the basis of social optimism, which means the reproducibility of the socio-political system, the stability of the lifestyle he has created. Idea not found.
  • Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 2 January 2021 23: 58
    +2
    Quote: Olgovich
    Pokryshkin, Kozhedub, Zhukov, Brezhnev and other millions of FRONTOVIKS?

    Why did you forget Golovanov? A?
  • aybolyt678
    aybolyt678 2 January 2021 22: 16
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    The question is: HOW is this a powerful system of upbringing, organized under the full and unlimited sole power and ideology of the Bolsheviks,

    with that powerful system of training a new person, there was no worthy system of training just the leading personnel. Stalin did not have time to create it. Remember who he brought to the Central Committee in 1949. There was a higher party school, which was based on the ideas of almost a century ago and what this led to - I give an example of two countries of Soviet influence, Mozambique and Somalia always fought. The Soviet military with Soviet ideology built airfields, roads and other military infrastructure in both countries. They began by organizing meetings, songs and dances, as they were used to at home. Fidel Castro flew in to one of these meetings and was thrown at him with something, there was a scandal, after which Mozambique bombed Somalia and occupied part of the territory. Mozambique was more communist, where everyone was accepted into the ranks of the communists laughingso he got more help.
    The old philosophy cannot be rejected. Although a new philosophy always wins by proving its weakness. Only over time it becomes clear that this is just a development
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 3 January 2021 09: 24
      -1
      Quote: aybolyt678
      with that powerful system of training a new person, there was no worthy system of training just leading personnel. Stalin did not have time to create it.

      Well, yes, under tsarism, they could, but under their power ... no!

      You yourself are not funny?
    2. aybolyt678
      aybolyt678 3 January 2021 14: 28
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      Well, yes, under tsarism, they could, but under their power ... no!

      the question was how to create a system of training and selection of leaders, break everything else
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 3 January 2021 17: 27
      -1
      Quote: aybolyt678
      the question was how to create a system of training and selection of leaders, break everything else

      And HOW did they grow up to the thief themselves?

      And then, well, nothing!

      The answer is: that system could not give birth to something better than EBNov in principle, due to their birthmarks.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 20: 37
    0
    Quote: aybolyt678
    The question is - how to bypass these most "difficult minutes" to calculate these very "piece" people?

    By no means, far from the smartest and most literate will strive for power at any cost. The clever one will think twice, but he needs it?
    The older I get, the more I slide towards the idea of ​​monarchy. There is at least a chance to bring up something predictable and understandable. In other cases, the lottery.
    1. Oprichnik
      Oprichnik 3 January 2021 01: 28
      -2
      Dear Pane Vladislav, you are not alone in such a slide. For 40 years I am sure that the only form of government suitable for Russia is the People's Monarchy according to Solonevich. And the republic is always theft, intrigue, disorder and weakness, which does not ensure national security in all its aspects. Sincerely, Vladimir
    2. Obliterator
      Obliterator 3 January 2021 12: 44
      +2
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      The older I get, the more I slide towards the idea of ​​monarchy. There is at least a chance to bring up something predictable and understandable. In other cases, the lottery.

      So the personality of the monarch is also a lottery. Although, in the future, with the development of genetic technologies, we may arrive at something monarchical.
  • kalibr
    2 January 2021 15: 22
    0
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Having personally seen the utopian nature of the natural processes of collectivization, it is not surprising that he began to force them through the administrative resource.

    That's what you said very well!
  • bk0010
    bk0010 2 January 2021 17: 59
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    By 1989, HALF of settlements disappeared from the face of Russia (see census)!
    So what? Read about Khrushchev's consolidation. They did not want to bring electricity and telephone to small villages, clubs for 5 old women were also too expensive to build, they were all taken closer to the main estate of the collective farm.
    Quote: Olgovich
    The land for which they fought to the death in 1917, in just 60 years - NO ONE needs it!
    Yeah. This is called industrialization. Land use intensification. Why they fought for the land: the people multiplied (the communities were given out the land according to the number of people in the family, and so they multiplied gamblingly), the land in the central regions of Russia was really lacking: productivity is low, it is banal to have enough for food. Then the peasants moved to the city, the mechanization of agriculture began, then the chemicalization, then the green revolution. As a result, where eight people could feed nine, it became so that one feeds 100-150 people from less land. By the way, the same crap was in the states: banks ruined farmers, enlarged farms, survivors continued to work under the control of banks.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 2 January 2021 18: 57
      -3
      Quote: bk0010
      So what? Read about Khrushchev's consolidation. ...


      The fact that HALF of the settlements have disappeared from the face of the earth instead of becoming more. For it was where!
      Unlike Europe.

      And yes, show me where in the world it was

      Do you know the population density in Russia? And in the countries around?
      Quote: bk0010
      They did not want to bring electricity and telephone to small villages, clubs for 5 old women were also expensive to build, everyone was taken closer to the main estate of the collective farm.


      It’s expensive to get out of power. And where, by the way, did the youth go from the paradise communist life organized in the countryside? And after all, there were not enough working hands catastrophically in the village.

      And yes, throw up huge industrial assets, housing stock, scattered across "unpromising" villages, this is from a "big" mind.

      And yes, there was NO ONE to handle distant lands, and there was NOTHING to carry people there, and there were NO roads.
      So, million hectares of arable land are overgrown with FOREST in owls "paradise".

      Very "promising" for the extinction of everything.

      Quote: bk0010
      As a result, where eight people could feed nine, it became so that one feeds 100-150 people from less land. By the way, the same crap was in the states

      Show in the states millions of hectares of arable land and land overgrown with weeds, and the rest are strained, in many ways, by hand by 70-year-olds, as it was in the USSR in the 1980s.

      Show where in the states 40% of reclaimed land ... is abandoned, 90% of arable land is depleted, meadows are reduced by half ... 70% of labor in animal husbandry ... by hand, forage provision ... 50%, and the herd is dying by a third of ... exhaustion - as it was in the USSR
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 2 January 2021 19: 13
        +4
        Quote: Olgovich
        The fact that HALF of the settlements have disappeared from the face of the earth instead of becoming more. For it was where!
        Unlike Europe.
        Once again: the existing settlements grew larger.
        Quote: Olgovich
        Do you know the population density in Russia? And in the countries around?
        Well, why be so substituted? Do you know the land structure of Russia? For sure. But just in case, let me remind you: 60-65% of the territory of Russia is permafrost, another 10-20% are swamps, and most of them are great Siberian swamps that cannot be drained, since there are so many methane hydrates that if they enter the atmosphere indeed, global warming will come. There is about the same amount of normal land in Russia as in Kazakhstan, and the population density is considered throughout the territory.
        Quote: Olgovich
        It’s expensive to get out of power.
        Congratulations, you are a faithful Brezhnevite! Khrushchev remembered these enlargements during the removal.
        Quote: Olgovich
        And where, by the way, did the youth go from the paradise communist life, organized by the commies in the countryside?
        You will not believe it, in the same place as in the states: they moved to the city for an easy life, but what?
        Quote: Olgovich
        And yes, throw up huge industrial assets, housing stock, scattered across "unpromising" villages, this is from a "big" mind.
        Don't worry, they took everything away like this:

        Quote: Olgovich
        Show in the states millions of hectares of arable land and land overgrown with weeds, and the rest are strained, in many ways, by hand by 70-year-olds, as it was in the USSR in the 1980s.
        Eck you jumped off the topic! That is, there are no objections about the bourgeois version of collectivization.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 2 January 2021 20: 34
          -3
          Quote: bk0010
          Once again: the existing settlements grew larger.

          AGAIN: Urbanization -Historical process of increasing the NUMBER of cities, not the disappearance of small NP. Those. small NPs are turning into cities.

          And once again, poke the disappearance of half of the NP in the United States or where.
          Quote: bk0010
          Well, why be so substituted?

          Your ignorance: in European part of Russia, the density of today is 27 people / km2, Germany is 10 times higher.
          Smolensk region - 18 km2, Poland nearby - 10 times more.
          Quote: bk0010
          Congratulations, you are a faithful Brezhnevite! Khrushchev remembered these enlargements during the removal.

          belay Pribrezhneev everything continued
          Quote: bk0010
          You will not believe it, in the same place as in the states: they moved to the city for an easy life, but what?

          You don't understand at all, I see: work in the village - SHALL, SCREAM collective farms about lack of hands!
          In the USA, VERSA, NO work!
          Quote: bk0010
          Don't worry, they took everything away like this:

          lol laughing And on our ... roads.

          Most of them are ABANDONED. Along with the fields, read the literature.
          And yes, the people did not go to the estates (of which there were not even half of the necessary ones), but to the CITIES. overloading them to death.
          Quote: bk0010
          Eck you jumped off the topic! That is, there are no objections about the bourgeois version of collectivization.

          And in Russian?
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 2 January 2021 21: 33
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            Those. small NPs are turning into cities.
            Really? And where do they get people from? Other small items that disappear.
            Quote: Olgovich
            And once again, poke the disappearance of half of the NP in the United States or where.
            And there people are left to fend for themselves, get out of the depressed village as you wish. Abandoned villages there - in every third horror film. If it were rare, the phenomenon would not have rolled as a horror. There are even abandoned cities in the USA (Castle Gate or Hanford, for example), so this is a bad example for you. I'm not even talking about dying million-plus cities like Dedroit.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Pribrezhneev everything continued
            No.
            Quote: Olgovich
            You don't understand at all, I see: work in the village - SHALL, SCREAM collective farms about lack of hands!
            Who are you telling this to? I went to a collective farm to work instead of these collective farmers. Not often, but still. If they worked, they would have had enough working hands.
            Quote: Olgovich
            And in Russian?
            To put it quite simply, in the USA, the processes of consolidation of agricultural farms were also going on, only by different methods.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 3 January 2021 09: 35
              -1
              Quote: bk0010
              Quote: Olgovich
              Those. small NPs are turning into cities.
              Really? And where do they get people from? Other small items that disappear.
              Quote: Olgovich
              And once again, poke the disappearance of half of the NP in the United States or where.
              And there people are left to fend for themselves, get out of the depressed village as you wish. Abandoned villages there - in every third horror film. If it were rare, the phenomenon would not have rolled as a horror. There are even abandoned cities in the USA (Castle Gate or Hanford, for example), so this is a bad example for you. I'm not even talking about dying million-plus cities like Dedroit.

              Why idle chatter? Give an example of the statistics of DISAPPEARANCEhalf NP in the USA, not idle speculation
              Quote: bk0010
              Quote: Olgovich
              Pribrezhneev everything continued
              No.

              Yes, read Denisova's monograph "The Disappearing Village of Russia"
              Quote: bk0010
              Who are you telling this to? I went to a collective farm to work instead of these collective farmers. Not often, but still. If they worked, they would have had enough working hands.

              You, who does not know the elementary. MILLIONS of hectares of arable land - what have been abandoned, eh? From excess hands?
              А
              Quote: bk0010
              Quite simply, in the USA, the processes of consolidation of agricultural farms were also going on, only by other methods

              There was no VVMIRANIE village in the USA, that's all
              1. bk0010
                bk0010 3 January 2021 15: 28
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                Give as an example the statistics of the DISAPPEARANCE of half of the NP in the US, not idle speculation
                Less pathos: not "DISAPPEARANCE", but systematic liquidation, otherwise it looks as if these villages were washed away. Yes, this was not the case in the states, they did not care about the population, they did not translate it into better living conditions, spin around as you want.
                Quote: Olgovich
                You, who does not know the elementary. MILLIONS of hectares of arable land - what have been abandoned, eh? From excess hands?
                And what are not trillions? How much exactly? Hands went to the city and to raise the virgin soil, so what?
                Quote: Olgovich
                There was no VVMIRANIE village in the USA, that's all
                Duc, there was no analogue of our village, there was no community, there was no collective farm. Farmers are there, individual farmers in our opinion. What are you comparing with?
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 3 January 2021 19: 26
                  0
                  Quote: bk0010
                  Less pathos: not "DISAPPEARANCE", but systematic liquidation, otherwise it looks as if these villages were washed away. Yes, this was not the case in the states, they did not care about the population, they did not translate it into better living conditions, spin yourself as you want

                  There was no concern for the population, even in sight and for the center of the estates: they were built absolutely FEW, badly, stupidly, stupidly and haphazardly, without a plan.

                  And 90% people from unpromising villages rushed to the CITY

                  In the states, rural NPs turned into cities
                  Quote: bk0010
                  And what are not trillions? How much exactly? Hands went to the city and to raise the virgin soil, so what?

                  Abandoned 13% from 50 million hectares of arable land in just ... TWENTY YEARS 1965-85 and minus 44% from the population!
                  Catastrophe..

                  Yes, because of the stupid virgin soil, they spat on the Non-Black Earth Region, ravaged it * "mastered" the virgin soil and ... abandoned a million hectares of the Non-Black Earth Region.

                  There are no hands - cows are stupidly dying of hunger, while TENS of million tons of the most valuable meadow non-cut potential hay go under the snow, there is SOMEONE to mow them, and the cows are fed and milked.

                  And it is necessary to feed, and the most valuable arable land is sown ... with fodder crops for livestock instead of grain and flax. And they feed ... with compound feed ...
                  Quote: bk0010
                  Duc, there was no analogue of our village, there was no community, there was no collective farm. Farmers are there, individual farmers in our opinion. What are you comparing with?

                  With the countryside of the Non-Black Earth Region, we have the same one there.
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 20: 41
          +2
          And it is true that those who fell under the demolition of the house were dragged to a new place with tractors, sometimes a couple.
      2. aybolyt678
        aybolyt678 2 January 2021 22: 21
        +2
        Quote: Olgovich
        The fact that HALF of the settlements have disappeared from the face of the earth instead of becoming more. For it was where!
        Unlike Europe.

        Just when the birth rate was low, everyone moved to the city. There is nothing to do in the village. Kirovets - 700 horsepower ...
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 3 January 2021 09: 36
          0
          Quote: aybolyt678
          Just when the birth rate was low, everyone moved to the city. There is nothing to do in the village. Kirovets - 700 horsepower ...

          Nonsense, there is SOMEONE to work there, and no Kirovets have noticed people
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 11: 34
            -1
            So Olegovich, you're going to raise the village! So much energy is wasted! hi
            1. Morozov
              Morozov 3 January 2021 11: 45
              -1
              Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
              So Olegovich, you're going to raise the village! So much energy is wasted! hi

              Some people have a lot of energy in their tongues, you are right Vladislav! The idea is needed, well, the financial injections are powerful .. They raised virgin lands, BAM, etc., precisely on the enthusiasm of young people, etc. Now everyone is trying to scuffle .. Then films were released, etc. Now watching our TV and the media, young people think that it's easier to shoot and rob someone and EVERYTHING will be in life .. All this is wrong
            2. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 11: 47
              0
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              So much energy is wasted!

              Aha! Trakhtour Belarus is resting ...
            3. Olgovich
              Olgovich 3 January 2021 18: 24
              +1
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              So Olegovich, you're going to raise the village! So much energy is wasted!

              1. I have already built my city in 42 years of work. houses, recreation centers, equipment storage facilities, space communication centers, Main Command, concrete goods, SBO, KNS, OVS, UVS, streets, etc., etc.

              2. "Thanks" to the policy of the previous regime, which led to the extinction of the Russians, I am now needed a lot: in the Russian village of Nechenozemya, in the Far East Region, in the Russian North, in the Russian world of 15 second-hand republics, etc.
              Don't burst, yeah.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 19: 35
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                1. I have already built my city in 42 years of work. houses, recreation centers, equipment storage facilities, space communication centers, Main Command, concrete goods, SBO, KNS, OVS, UVS, streets, etc., etc.


                Specifically, in which village of the Non-Black Earth Region do you live?
                I personally have a house in the "village" and do a lot for its development, from taxes to buying goods to support my native place!
                What can you boast of apart from unfounded accusations?
                Olegovich, you can talk and write a lot, but the old cannot be returned, and it is not productive to shake the air who is to blame, without offers of what to do!
                Regards, Vlad!
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 3 January 2021 19: 54
                  +1
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Specifically, in which village of the Non-Black Earth Region do you live?

                  I live in the Russian world and do everything to preserve it.
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  I personally from taxes to buying goods to support your home!
                  Than you except unfounded accusation can you brag?

                  WHAT have I personally accused you of ...? belay
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Olegovich, you can talk and write a lot, but the old cannot be returned, and it is not productive to shake the air who is to blame, without offers of what to do!

                  Vlad, so the topic of the article is this, and we "shake it" yes

                  On the subject: "but if it would be ...."

                  What to do? I don't know, it's too deeply destroyed.

                  For example, you are doing absolutely right, but this is a grain of sand in the sea .... Maybe there are a lot of grains of sand? recourse

                  Yours faithfully,

                  Andrei hi
          2. aybolyt678
            aybolyt678 3 January 2021 14: 30
            +2
            Quote: Olgovich
            Nonsense, there is SOMEONE to work there, and no Kirovets have noticed people

            I live in a village, there is nowhere to work if I don't have my own farm
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 19: 28
              +1
              Quote: aybolyt678
              Quote: Olgovich
              Nonsense, there is SOMEONE to work there, and no Kirovets have noticed people

              I live in a village, there is nowhere to work if I don't have my own farm

              I am writing to Olegovich about it! Recent examples of it are on the Chusovaya River. The rafting of "iron" on the river died due to the appearance of railways - the villages that provided the trade on the river died.

              In "dead villages" you can fill in like a nightingale while living in the city, but "take the fifth point off the sofa" and understand the "village" or "we are city dwellers"!
              What is the point of "sissy crumple and parade ground slogans to print"!
              Regards, Vlad!
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 3 January 2021 20: 33
              0
              Quote: aybolyt678
              Quote: Olgovich
              Nonsense, there is SOMEONE to work there, and no Kirovets have noticed people

              I live in a village, there is nowhere to work if I don't have my own farm


              "Kirovets" did not replace you? wink

              And yes, how does your life in the countryside cancel out the ABSOLUTE shortage of workers in the agricultural sector of Russia since the 1960s?

              Because of what many MILLIONS of hectares of agricultural land in the Non-Black Earth Region (minus 13%), farms, 60 thousand villages and HALF MILLION of empty residential buildings were abandoned by 1985?
              1. aybolyt678
                aybolyt678 4 January 2021 21: 42
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                And yes, how does your life in the countryside cancel out the ABSOLUTE shortage of workers in the agricultural sector of Russia since the 1960s?

                I answer yes I, as an extra class specialist, Ph.D. in veterinary science, provide sperm for elite boars in three nearby districts, as well as any veterinary assistance and advice to all farmers and animal owners in my and nearby districts. Sometimes I bring in bull semen and provide it. But I, as you say, "piece" goods. My job causes unemployment among boar owners who are trying to provide the opportunity for "love pleasures" of pigs, naturally laughing In addition, I pin fractures in dogs, cats and turtles, drip IV drips, transfuse blood, etc ..........................
                therefore veterinarians in the area are highly unemployed ... laughing
                Quote: Olgovich
                Because of which, many MILLIONS of hectares of agricultural land in the Non-Black Earth Region (minus 13%), farms, 60 thousand villages were abandoned

                it's very simple - firstly, because of the lack of infrastructure for the safety of crops. Remember the era of Khrushchev? when the harvests are record and the safety is 30%?
                The cost of a warehouse is inversely proportional to its volume. It is unprofitable and even costly to have two warehouses instead of one. And also keep the road smile
                best regards Aibolit
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 4 January 2021 23: 03
                  -1
                  Quote: aybolyt678
                  itata: Olgovich
                  Because of which, many MILLIONS of hectares of agricultural land in the Non-Black Earth Region (minus 13%), farms, 60 thousand villages were abandoned

                  it's very simple - firstly, because of the lack of infrastructure for the safety of crops. Remember the era of Khrushchev? when the harvests are record and the safety is 30%?


                  You, apparently, did not understand the question: WHY is it here ... warehouses to ... ABANDONED plowing? To abandoned meadows (half less)?

                  It was just that SOMEONE began to handle and mow them. And with a wild lack of forage (provision as much ... 50%) tens of million tons of potential hay went under the snow. But the plowing was sown ... with forage crops.

                  And also due to the liquidation of the nepersp villages near the fields, they are abandoned, because there is nothing to go to them on a landless road, there is no one and far.

                  There is no one to maintain the drainage, and so made disgusting and headless.

                  There is no one to milk, clean, feed, repair.

                  FORTY-FOUR% of the villagers of Russia fled in just TWENTY years 1965-1985, to the city, basically, the last youth. The old people remained. Catastrophe

                  Etc.

                  And at least 30% of the harvest under that government was ALWAYS lost, and there is no master before Khrushch. Read the documents of the Istmat website - there are reports of the OGPU, TSUKHNU about losses (secret)

                  Quote: aybolyt678
                  best regards Aibolit

                  Strangely, yesterday you called me a liberal.

                  However, this does not stop me from treating you - with respect
                  1. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 4 January 2021 23: 56
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    WHAT IS THERE ... warehouses to ... ABANDONED plowing?

                    elementary :: why plow if there is nowhere to store? study, do not take it for work wink

                    Quote: Olgovich
                    And at least 30% of the harvest

                    so much has survived, I suggest Consensus
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Strangely, yesterday you called me a liberal.

                    and you have unsystematic knowledge ... sometimes, of course, encyclopedic, but without a system ... or one-sided. They are similar to Faith with all that it implies ...............
                  2. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 5 January 2021 07: 47
                    -1
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    elementary :: why plow if there is nowhere to store? study, do not take it for work

                    Show the decision of the party to "abandon" a million hectares of arable land due to the lack of warehouses.

                    What Khrushch by .... 1980?
                    And in the 1980s under the snow and in the mud went a THIRD of the harvest, as well as throughout that power: there is NO master.

                    Yes, and do not forget that the productivity of Russia in the 13th year on horseback, the heroic Bolsheviks, with tractors, chemistry, with miloin victims, valiantly ... by 1956... But later there were lower yields.

                    Think: FORTY-FOUR% of villagers Russia fled from its native nest in just TWENTY YEARS 1965-1985, mostly the last youth. The old people remained. Catastrophe.

                    And they, by the way, wildly overloaded the cities, and cheap power hindered the development of technologies, for why?
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    so much has survived, I suggest Consensus

                    33% were lost, without any consensus. This is an established fact. Read monographs
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    and you have unsystematized knowledge ... sometimes, of course, encyclopedic but without a system ... or one-sided. They are similar to Vera with all the consequences ...

                    Why are you not satisfied with my "unsystematic" data?
                    The fact that you can not argue with them on the merits?
                    Apparently so. hi
                  3. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 5 January 2021 08: 41
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Show the decision of the party to "abandon" a million hectares of arable land due to the lack of warehouses.

                    Party decisions were disguised as the creation of state farms. A farm was created that collected part of the inhabitants of endangered collective farms and private owners, naturally a lot of land was abandoned

                    Quote: Olgovich
                    What Khrushch by .... 1980?

                    Khrushch is a symbol of party irresponsibility.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    And they, by the way, wildly overloaded the cities, and cheap power hindered the development of technologies, for why?

                    You have a mess in your head. The development of technology was hampered by the lack of interest in the results of labor.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    33% were lost, without any consensus. This is an established fact. Read monographs

                    Consensus means Unanimity. Why do you advise reading monographs?
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    The fact that you can not argue with them on the merits?
                    Apparently so.

                    Love you tongue rigging. And don't criticize yourself. One-sided you see only black from the selected position. My dad was an engineer, my mom was a doctor. They lived in Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Kolyma ... and everywhere they were immediately given an apartment, free of charge. And I was never hungry, and I saw construction sites, huge enterprises ... so there was something good during the Soviet period ...
                  4. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 5 January 2021 13: 24
                    -2
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Party decisions were disguised as the creation of state farms. A farm was created that collected part of the inhabitants of endangered collective farms and private owners, naturally many lands have been abandoned

                    Not thrown anywhere, only here.

                    At the same time ..... they reclaimed the swamps, creating ... NEW arable lands, while abandoning .... the existing ones. Itiotism ..fool And they threw, yes, much more than they created.

                    At the same time, the reclaimed land ... is abandoned by FORTY%! fool

                    As part of the dumbest virgin lands in the RSFSR, "they raised 16 million hectares of new arable land, while ... they abandoned 13 million of the EXISTING lands of Russia, robbed the Non-Black Earth Region with people and money. fool

                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Khrushch is a symbol of party irresponsibility.

                    Under Khrushche, people sighed even though they began to receive housing, they began to LIVE!
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    You have a mess in your head. The development of technology was hampered by the lack of interest in the results of labor.

                    You don't understand much: WHY create a line if a dozen cheap hard workers will do that job? Read literature.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Consensus means Unanimity. Why do you advise reading monographs?

                    They will confirm my words
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    You love juggling. And don't criticize yourself. One-sided see only black, from the selected position. My dad was an engineer, my mom was a doctor. They lived in Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Kolyma ... and everywhere they were immediately given an apartment, free of charge. And I was never hungry, and I saw construction sites, huge enterprises ... so there was something good during the Soviet period ..

                    There was good too, of course.

                    Wouldn't it be good without the Bolsheviks? Wouldn't there be doctors, engineers? UNIVERSITIES, professors for them, by the way, WHERE did the Bolsheviks take, huh? EVERYTHING has already happened in Russia. And in the world, Europe, without them, there is no good?

                    Probably, that's why EVERYONE started splashing from them at the first opportunity?

                    Yes, do not forget that without them the population of Russia would be several tens of millions more Russians today (more than 10 million people died of hunger alone). Do you think they wanted to live less than yours?
                  5. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 5 January 2021 14: 52
                    -1
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    WHY create a line if a dozen cheap

                    that's not it. Cheap, expensive ... didn't matter. There was a staffing table with a worker's salary of 3p15 kopecks per day. And it doesn't matter whether it's cheap or expensive. Another thing is that until the Party says it was possible to receive that money without working. A warm place is when you distribute more and answer less. Labor was depersonalized, the result was also ... Zero interest.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    They will confirm my words

                    I agreed that 30% of the harvest was lost, I said that there was a consensus, you don’t know the word? belay
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Under Khrushche, people sighed even though they began to receive housing, they began to LIVE!
                    Khrushch got a nuclear power, hardened in war, survived after devastation and famine, and a huge positive inertia when people worked with a dream !!
                    ... And he built enterprises with buildings like in Europe, without a sufficient foundation, they fell apart. He mastered, as you write Celina, abandoning Russia, He replaced wheat with corn, largely unjustified. And he also canceled any persecution and responsibility of the members of the Central Committee! It was thanks to him that we began to buy grain. Porridge in your head !! fool Either you scold him, or vice versa !!!
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Wouldn't it be good without the Bolsheviks? Wouldn't there be doctors, engineers? UNIVERSITIES, professors for them, by the way, WHERE did the Bolsheviks take, huh? EVERYTHING has already happened in Russia. And in the world, Europe, without them, there is no good?

                    Without the Bolsheviks during the revolution, it would have been impossible to unite the country in any way. Now we would have a large North Africa where the American and German wealthy themselves would pump oil and the British would mine gold. No way. Land for peasants, factories for workers !!!! Peace Equality Brotherhood! even if they were just slogans, they worked. Moreover, they believed them, even sometimes foreigners. If you don't convince me, no one except the Bolsheviks would have done it.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Yes, do not forget that without them the population of Russia would be several tens of millions more Russians today (more than 10 million people died of hunger alone).
                    lol - History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood, but I will try to compose a version without the Bolsheviks: - Revolution, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks Anarchists, monarchists ... what force could rally hordes of armed people who speak Russian roaming this land ??? the tsar abdicated, the Socialist-Revolutionaries wanted to snatch something. save something. but no one thought about the peasants. there would be a Far Eastern republic, Siberian Moscow, etc. In addition, the Americans were fighting in the Far East. The British sponsored the White Movement as it is now ...
                    \ or a variant with WWII? replay? private factories could not meet the needs of the front, in any way! We would have lost this war without the communists, definitely. The Germans were united by National Socialism, Communism-for-Germans, and what would have united us ??? please answer this smile
                  6. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 5 January 2021 16: 06
                    -2
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    it is not that.

                    This is exactly what: when there are no CHEAP workers, create a line instead of them. The same pariah from this has not gone anywhere. Just without brains I was late all the time.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    I agreed that 30% of the harvest was lost, I said that there was a consensus, you don’t know the word?

                    Nope, it’s you who speak clumsily in Russian: we read WHAT you answered me:
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    And at least 30% of the harvest

                    You answered: so much lasted propose to Consensus

                    Those. 30% ... remained, in your opinion.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Khrushch got a nuclear power, hardened in war, survived after devastation and famine, and a huge positive inertia when people worked with a dream !!

                    Remained emaciated from terrible hardships, wars and inhuman overstrain, a tired country with insane spending on megaprojects and cynical window dressing ("Stalin's"), with ruined poor peasantry and farming, with wild queues for food and clothes
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    He mastered how you write to Celine, abandoning Russia,

                    Abandoned Russia in the 1930s: see SPENDING on Russia and the republics
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    He replaced wheat with corn, largely unjustifiably.
                    !

                    They began to buy grain because the Bolshevik farming failed and could not provide the people with food. And if until 1960 they were simply starving, then with the advent of oil exports, they were able to buy additional grain for foreign currency. And they never got out of it.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Porridge in your head !!

                    lol laughing You numbers, you words ...
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Without the Bolsheviks in the period of the revolution, it would have been impossible to unite in any way and I would have eliminated them. Behold we would be a great North Africa where.

                    Take a textbook on the history of Russia and, perhaps, you will learn that countries lived before them for a THOUSAND YEARS! And never collapsed. But it was the Bolsheviks from 1917 to 1940 who cut from its flesh ... 41 "states", which we have today. Before the thief, there was NOT ANY independence, tie yourself a knot lol

                    Russia was FOURTH, FIFTH economy in the world with the pace of development much higher than world... THEREFORE, nemchura attacked us in 1914 to conquer and stop a competitor who will soon run over.

                    And you insult 180 million people of Russia, who built the largest country in the world and cult.... equate with Africans. fool fool
                    Nothing sacred ...
                    These usurpers from the VKPB-Africans were in their wild essence.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    ... Land for peasants, factories for workers !!!! Peace Equality Brotherhood! even if they were just slogans, they worked. Not only were they believed, even sometimes Foreigners... If you don't convince me, no one except the Bolsheviks would have done it.

                    Everything turned out to be a cynical FALSE - and the land, and factories and "equality. And" how they "worked" - see. "internationalists" of workers and peasants from the West, who staged an unprecedented genocide against our peasants in 1941-44
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood, but I will try to compose a version without the Bolsheviks: - Revolution, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks Anarchists, monarchists ... what force could rally hordes of armed people who speak Russian, roaming this land ??? the tsar abdicated, the SRs wanted to snatch something. save something. but no one thought about the peasants.

                    Learn, finally, WHAT is the Constituent Assembly of Russia and WHAT it managed to adopt. In order not to look like a stupid owl
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    there would be a Far Eastern republic, Siberian Moscow, etc. In addition, the Americans were fighting in the Far East. The British sponsored the White Movement as it is now ...

                    This is YOURS and did: before them, there was NOTHING of this, and in sight
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    \ or a variant with WWII? replay? ... The Germans were united by National Socialism, Communism-for-Germans, and what would have united us ??? please answer this

                    It wouldn’t have been WWII without a thief, for without the Brest betrayal, Karlhorst 1945 would have been in 1918.

                    The people rallied LOVE for the FATHERLAND - see the title of the war: not "communist" but DOMESTIC.

                    And people stood up for it, as they stood up for a THOUSAND YEARS before - on the Kulikovo field, in the Battle of the Ice, near Molody, Poltava, near Borodino and Osovets, etc.

                    "The Russian land has stood and will stand on that!" (C).


                    And when it was necessary to stand up in 1991 purely for your idols, no one stood up, incl. and they ... themselves. belay lol
                  7. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 5 January 2021 17: 54
                    -1
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    And when it was necessary to stand up in 1991 purely for your idols, no one stood up, incl. and they ... themselves.

                    Forgotten the White House recourse no one stood up for the king, and under the king and in peacetime they died of hunger. I would agree with you that the root of evil is communism, but communism has been gone for 30 years, and there is still no prospect. So you are wrong. Not in this case. And nothing to offer you hi .
                  8. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 5 January 2021 19: 41
                    -1
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Forgotten the White House

                    By 1993 there was no sign of power for 2 years already, people stood up in 1993 for the Law and the Constitution
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    no one stood up for the king, and under the king and in peacetime they died of hunger.

                    The emperor handed over power to the decision of the Constituent Assembly, and for him the Russian people fought with the invaders since 1918 for TEN YEARS.

                    Under Nicholas no one died of hunger. As there was no cannibalism with him. All this was only under the "people's" power, and in peacetime, in the middle of the 20th century in the middle of Europe.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    but communism has been gone for 30 years, and there is still no prospect.

                    How do you imagine this?

                    Go to the churchyards of the extinct Russian 150 villages and throw a cry: "That's it, Ivan, get up! Now you can work for yourself!"

                    Or where to get young people to raise everything, for example, the same Non-Black Earth Region?

                    Let me remind you that the people of 1991 are an old, dying out, low-cost people.

                    And yes, step now, your favorite system - you will not drive ANYONE into the fields for work, or to the cows belly in the slurry for the same.
                    And SOMEONE hi
            3. your1970
              your1970 8 January 2021 00: 54
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich
              As part of the dumbest virgin lands in the RSFSR, "they raised 16 million hectares of new arable land, while ... they abandoned 13 million of the EXISTING lands of Russia, robbed the Non-Black Earth Region with people and money.

              You have forgotten about the involvement of the army in the harvest. And this was done not from the tower harvests, but because there was no one to harvest the usual harvest
            4. Olgovich
              Olgovich 8 January 2021 10: 37
              -1
              Quote: your1970
              You have forgotten about the involvement of the army in the harvest. And this was done not from the tower harvests, but because there was no one to harvest the usual harvest

              This was practiced back in the 1930s, when peasants, abandoning their crops, houses, farm, livestock, secretly fled to the cities.

              But the very fact that when mastering the so-called. virgin lands ... abandoned the ALREADY existing, reclaimed lands, spent billions, people, just so ... to master new ones - this is HOW ?! belay

              Or they spent BILLIONS on poor-quality reclamation on one side of the "field" in order to obtain new arable land and ... THROWS much more arable land under the weeds on the other side ... fool

              Theater of the absurd, no words ... belay request recourse
  • aybolyt678
    aybolyt678 2 January 2021 19: 09
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    leading to its extinction (mortality is more than births) already from the end of 1950, the depopulation of the vast expanses of central Russia

    the article deals with the formation of Soviet power, and you mean the post-war period. If 10 million soldiers died in the war, then according to military statistics, for every killed 5 wounded, two of whom are disabled! and this is 20% of the country's population!
    Quote: Olgovich
    By 1989, HALF of settlements disappeared from the face of Russia

    again you're talking about the partocrats!
    Quote: Olgovich
    Yes, they did not understand anything: only when they completely manifested
    The Boljevist agricultural policy began to eat people in the country, and then it only dawned on them that something was wrong and it was necessary to change it.

    AHA and changed, Perestroika, oligarchs, Currency exchanges .. Hello Turkey, Egypt .. Used foreign cars ... USE .....
    The article was written about the 20s of the last century. About people with guns. Red rag on the hat and you are the judge! Power! how was it to reason?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 2 January 2021 23: 02
      -3
      Quote: aybolyt678
      the article deals with the formation of Soviet power, and you mean the post-war period.

      This is what began in 1917, the loan continued in the 1930s and ended in 1991 with a disaster.
      Quote: aybolyt678
      If 10 million soldiers died in the war, then according to military statistics, for every killed 5 wounded, two of whom are disabled! and this is 20% of the country's population!

      In the cities there was no such (excess of deaths over births) - or did the war not touch them?
      Quote: aybolyt678
      Quote: Olgovich
      By 1989, HALF of settlements disappeared from the face of Russia

      again you're talking about the partocrats!

      I'm talking about FACTS-show-WHERE was this in the world? It's okay that half of the IR ... NO?
      Quote: aybolyt678
      AHA and changed, Perestroika, oligarchs, Currency exchanges .. Hello Turkey, Egypt .. Used foreign cars ... USE .....

      And?
      1. aybolyt678
        aybolyt678 3 January 2021 01: 27
        0
        Quote: Olgovich
        This is what began in 1917, the loan continued in the 1930s and ended in 1991 with a disaster.

        + completely agree with you drinks started at 17 ended, at 30 it developed and won and proved to the whole world and an example showed but the disaster of 1953 happened. Then there was inertia until 1970, then the negative movement took on the character of a collapse (reverse explosion), and first of all, among the top party officials. But not among the people. Our correspondence with you is an example of this.

        Quote: Olgovich
        In the cities there was no such (excess of deaths over births) - or did the war not touch them?

        I'm not talking about demography, I'm talking about a huge number of disabled people. My grandfather was an accountant without a leg came from the war.
        Quote: Olgovich
        I'm talking about FACTS-show-WHERE was this in the world? It's okay that half of the IR ... NO?

        In Germany, when driving along the road, one city ends and another begins, often without a visible border. In Russia, when you go by train, forests, fields, and occasionally settlements.
        In tsarist Russia, 70% of the population are peasants. In the Soviet, exactly the opposite. that's why there are no villages
        Quote: Olgovich
        And?

        But about "I" I would like to ask - we scold Tsarist Russia, we scold Soviet Russia, and who gave us the right to do this? what have we achieved? what to scold that time? Though they won wars, and now we are only betting on the Stalinist legacy of nuclear weapons. The Soviets at least declared their concern for the people and their leaders fell into the position of obliged, and our leaders - they are obliged to take care of the people? Or do we think so out of habit?
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 3 January 2021 11: 43
          +1
          Quote: aybolyt678
          I completely agree with you it started at 17 ended, at 30 it developed and won and proved to the whole world

          What is the year of "proof"? When he healed a HAPPY and RICH owl man?
          Quote: aybolyt678
          the example showed but the disaster of 1953 happened.

          On the contrary, people after complete disaster, to which the village was brought by this year, began to receive at least something and EAT. they closed crazy mega-projects, raised the purchase prices for agricultural products, canceled rent and, in part, corvee. the peasants received a beggarly, but state pension, people received housing: money and funds were thrown with madness on housing.
          Quote: aybolyt678
          Then there was inertia until 1970, then the negative movement took on the character of a collapse (reverse explosion), first of all, among the highest party officials.

          And sho is, where have the faithful "Leninists" gone?
          Quote: aybolyt678
          In Germany, when driving along the road, one city ends and another begins, often without a visible border. In Russia, when you go by train, forests, fields, and occasionally settlements.
          In tsarist Russia, 70% of the population are peasants. In the Soviet, exactly the opposite. that's why there are no villages

          So NPs were supposed to become CITIES, as in Germany, and not disappear, as in the RSFSR.
          In RI there were 90% of the peasant population and both villages and cities grew rapidly.

          Disappeared villages are abandoned precious land-arable, meadows. Virgin lands with lunar landscapes of a disappeared civilization ... in the center of the country, where people used to live and create for centuries!

          There is no such thing anywhere on Earth, for such resources are on the WEIGHT OF GOLD!

          Quote: aybolyt678
          But about "I" I would like to ask - we scold Tsarist Russia, we scold Soviet Russia, and who gave us the right to do this? what have we achieved? what to scold that time? Though they won wars, and now we are only betting on the Stalinist legacy of nuclear weapons. The Soviets at least declared their concern for the people and their leaders fell into the position of obliged, and our leaders - they are obliged to take care of the people? Or do we think so out of habit?

          I will say this: if Russia in 1991 were returned to that energetic, fast-growing, powerful people, which the Bolsheviks inherited in 1917, then Russia would not be recognized today, it would be the richest country in the world.

          And with the dying out old, uninitiated, drinking people of 1991, you can't do so much ...
          1. aybolyt678
            aybolyt678 3 January 2021 14: 35
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            What is the year of "proof"? When he healed a HAPPY and RICH owl man?

            45 - 68gg
            Quote: Olgovich
            canceled the rent and, in part,

            where is it from
            Quote: Olgovich
            people got a HOUSING

            people from the very beginning of the Sov authorities received housing when they got a job
            Quote: Olgovich
            And sho is, where have the faithful "Leninists" gone?

            It is believed that there were agents of influence around Khrushch who harassed the faithful Leninists
            Quote: Olgovich
            And with the dying out old, uninitiated, drinking people of 1991, you can't do so much ...

            What are we going to do?
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 3 January 2021 19: 07
              +1
              Quote: aybolyt678
              45 - 68gg

              46-47yy - 1-1,5 million people died of starvation - with cannibalism, corpse-eating.

              At the same time, to the West, through the dying regions, trains with bread rumbled for "fraternal" Romania, Hungary, which had just staged a genocide in our country.

              1952 g. Secretary of the CPSU Central Committee B. Aristov:
              “I was in Ryazan. - What is there? Outages? - No, I say, comrade Stalin, not interruptions, but for a long time there is no bread, no oil, no sausage. He stood in line with Larionov at 6-7 in the morning, checked. No bread anywhere!.

              or this, 1953:
              Khrushchev. You can’t endure further: there is no milk, little meat. We have announced the transition from socialism to communism, but we do not sell flour. And what is communism without hot cakes, roughly speaking?

              Voice from the Bureau. No potatoes.

              Khrushchev. No potatoes 48.

              ... I talked to comrade Zverev. We have 3,5 million fewer cows than we had before the war. Less cows means less meat, less oil, less skin.

              Comrades, but when we do not solve agricultural problems, when there is a shortage of meat, a shortage of milk, a shortage of even potatoes, a shortage of cabbage, how is this force? .. After all, they will come to us and say: listen, dear comrades, you are teaching us, how to build socialism, and you do not know how to grow potatoes in your home to provide for your people, you have no cabbage in the capital49.

              Molotov. We have every opportunity to provide ourselves with vegetables, potatoes, and cabbage in a short time, and raise animal husbandry to a really high level. Only we need to do this urgently, not to be afraid to seriously correct something in our work50.

              Kaganovich. ... I was in the Urals ... Of course, the food [question] is also acute: there is not enough meat, there is not enough sausage ... 51

              Kirichenko. [In Ukraine] Bad with vegetables, potatoes5


              And the food crisis of 1960-64?

              At the same time, they FOREVER sat down on the imprinted grain, having signed their IMPRESSION
              Quote: aybolyt678
              where is it from

              1958 - the abolition of the predatory rent in kind and in money: "As comrade Zverev (the minister, as far as I remember) said, the collective farmer, after all taxes on the cow, are left with only NAVOZ!"
              Quote: aybolyt678
              people from the very beginning of the Sov authorities received housing when they got a job

              Not funny at all: until 1938, housing was built at the level of ... 1918 And then, before Khrushchev, very little.
              Quote: aybolyt678
              It is believed that there were agents of influence around Khrushch who harassed the faithful Leninists

              Well, what kind of "agents", pardon me, they all did it, but there were NO people for the top. Couldn't bring up.
              Quote: aybolyt678
              What are we going to do?

              I do not know.

              Everything could be solved, but there are NO people, young people,
              1. bubalik
                bubalik 3 January 2021 19: 26
                +1
                ,, Yes, they immediately began to feed, the shots have not ended yet, unfortunately I am on the phone, so I would have attached more documents.
                1. aybolyt678
                  aybolyt678 3 January 2021 21: 06
                  0
                  they have apple trees there like we have birches .... Warm countries !! hungry of course war but this is not in Siberia!
              2. aybolyt678
                aybolyt678 3 January 2021 21: 01
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                I do not know.

                here ... the real value can only be a correct vision of the future, a mathematical historical philosophical ... It is necessary to analyze the past, look for positive examples there, try to draw conclusions that have practical significance and not just - "everything is bad, I don't know"
                about hunger 46 - 47 look not so scary it was: https: //topwar.ru/156382-golodomor-1947-ni-hleba-ni-pravdy.html
                and the reasons are clear
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 3 January 2021 22: 09
                  0
                  Quote: aybolyt678
                  It is necessary to analyze the past, look for positive examples there, try to draw conclusions that have practical significance and not just - "everything is bad, I don't know"

                  Duc-LET'S! yes Analysis and correct conclusions are on the table.

                  Quote: aybolyt678
                  about hunger 46 - 47 look not so scary

                  Unlike witnesses of famine in 32-33, witnesses of famine and cannibalism, and so on in 46-47, are still alive and I know some of them very well. As are their stories. Scary.
                  Read the Gagauzians themselves - they were touched the most
                  1. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 3 January 2021 23: 13
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Duc-LET'S! yes Analysis and correct conclusions are on the table.

                    as a veterinary doctor, I understand your fascination with horror laughing , you need it to feel normal in this boring reality.
                    As a member of the forum I can see that you are a liberalistic zombie pouring slops from the Soviet era, and offering nothing in return.
                    I think that you are not at all concerned with the fact that war was inevitable, that any war has consequences, and that they had to be addressed. How to decide you do not care, the main thing is that it was scary and someone made mistakes and someone died ... a terrible death winked there were hundreds of millions of them and the damned communists were to blame for this. angry
                    Want an anecdote? - Doctor, will I die?
                    - undoubtedly
                    -What horror, save!
                    -do not worry not this time smile
                  2. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 4 January 2021 12: 38
                    +1
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    as a veterinary doctor, I understand your hobby

                    These are the wards lol you were told, I see yes
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    as a member of the forum I can see that you are a liberalistic zombie pouring slop Soviet times

                    The "slops" were produced in the meantime and recorded in conscientious documents. Which, it is true, then no one showed you, because you did not come out with this. "Pravda" "was registered for you, yes ....
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    I think that you are absolutely ndon't care the fact that war was inevitable, that any war had consequences, and that they had to be addressed.

                    Do you write with one hand, cook valerian with the other? lol
                    In the peaceful years 1930,32,33,34, 36,37 with massive swelling and starvation - what kind of war are the consequences, eh? And in 1946-47 bread was in the country and went to the aid of Romania and Hungary.

                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    there were hundreds of millions of them and the damned communists were to blame for this.

                    Nope, martians yes ... They ruled the country.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    hear a joke? - Doctor, I

                    And to you about the doctor:
                    A friend tells a friend that he has been working as a doctor for 30 years.
                    - Wow! 30 years - cat down the tail! yes
                  3. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 5 January 2021 08: 25
                    0
                    thanks, appreciated smile
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    And in 1946-47 bread was in the country and went to the aid of Romania and Hungary.

                    So it was necessary .... maybe there was a plan to make them Russian?
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    - Wow! 30 years - down the drain!

                    good - an anecdote from my life - I castrate pigs from a former cop, knowing about my academic degree, he is sincerely surprised: - and is it interesting to poke around in the threshing floor all my life? I answer: - I am at least in a pig, and you in a human lol
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    "Pravda" "was registered for you, yes ....

                    Truth lied about communism, I agree .... but about capitalism all right !!
                  4. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 5 January 2021 09: 09
                    0
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    So it was necessary .... maybe there was a plan to make them Russian?

                    Who needs? Us?! We have at this time (from a report to the first secretary of the CPM Central Committee Koval and the Presidential Council of Ministers Rudy, February 1947):
                    “On the way from Chadyr-Lunga to Kongaz there were corpses that were unselected for a long time.

                    In the first village where I stayed - Baurchi, a large settlement - there was complete silence. There are no people on the streets and in the courtyards. In the center of the village is the village council, its porch and premises are packed with swollen old women and children. Some of them are in a semi-faint state.

                    Nearby there is a nutritional point. Near the issuing window - a dump and inhuman screams.

                    The village council informed me about the situation. On the night before my arrival, four terrible facts of murder and cannibalism were revealed. Eating corpses has become widespread, with dying old women asking their children and grandchildren to eat their corpses, promising them forgiveness of sins and salvation. Facts of the theft of corpses brought but not buried in the cemetery were noted.

                    The village council did not have exact data on the state of the population. Twenty-six people were reported to have died in the past day. He offered to immediately conduct a round-trip. Revealed seventy-three bodies. Most of the corpses were hidden in sheds, cellars, attics, in snowdrifts. A significant part of the corpses had their flesh and limbs cut off.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    - an anecdote from my life - I castrate pigs from a former cop, knowing about my academic degree, he is sincerely surprised: - and is it interesting to poke around in the threshing floor all my life? I answer: - I am at least in a pig, and you in a human

                    Witty, but in fact, not quite so.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Truth lied about communism, I agree .... but about capitalism all right !!

                    Exactly! Therefore, ALL socialist countries, and ours, too, fled from communism, like incense.
                  5. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 5 January 2021 10: 26
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    In the first village where I stayed - Baurchi, a large settlement - there was complete silence.

                    hunger is a direct consequence of war. read: -Communications of the Extraordinary State Commission (CHGK) for the establishment and investigation of the atrocities of the Nazi invaders and what they led to. In addition, do not forget that the most powerful power in the world, the USA, had nuclear weapons, a state reserve was created ...
                    I searched on the Internet for that hunger, and what I came to: it was, this is a fact, only a discrepancy in the figures, anti-Soviet sites inflate the figures, official data speaks about something else, for example: the first say that not 5 million tons were sent for export, the official figure -1,1 million
                    Therefore, ALL socialist countries, and ours, too, fled from communism, like incense.

                    and where did you come to Covid ?? it is still flowers, it will end with world fascism
                  6. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 5 January 2021 15: 04
                    -1
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    hunger is a direct consequence of war. read: -Communications of the Extraordinary State Commission (CHGK) for the establishment and investigation of the atrocities of the Nazi invaders and what they led to.

                    Absolute nonsense: during the war of 1944 there was no trace of this.
                    This is a consequence of the terrible drought and the absolute cowardice and sluggishness of the local authorities, who were silent about the tragedy, and the center ... did not know about it (there was such "controllability"!).

                    At the same time, there was bread in the country! But it went for export through the same Moldavia, across the Prut River. But on our side of the river, some died, and on the right, all survived.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    for example: the first say - not 5 million tons were exported, the official figure is -1,1 million

                    but it took much less to save ..
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    and where did you come to Covid ?? it is still flowers, it will end with world fascism

                    So how many people are there on the poor planet?
                  7. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 5 January 2021 15: 45
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Absolute nonsense: during the war of 1944 there was no trace of this.
                    This is a consequence of the terrible drought and the absolute cowardice and sluggishness of the local authorities.

                    the basis of life in the countryside is tax! the horses were eaten by the Germans. starving children, taken to Germany, requisitioned by the army, etc ... TRACTORS. since 1941, the production of any products for cx purposes was discontinued, how to plow ??? ... Only tanks! Reparations from Germany amounted to only 0,6% of what was required in 1947. The Americans detonated the bombs, so the war is very likely, all resources for the nuclear program. Do you need a strategic supply of bread?
                    The German fascist invaders completely or partially destroyed and burned 1710 * cities and more than 70 thousand villages and villages, burned and destroyed over 6 million buildings and deprived about 25 million people of homes.
                    25 million people are homeless! And the Lend-Lease is gone! They destroyed 65 thousand km of railway tracks, 4100 railway stations, 36 thousand post and telegraph offices, telephone exchanges and other communications enterprises. They destroyed or destroyed 40 thousand hospitals and other medical institutions, 84 thousand schools, technical schools, higher educational institutions, research institutes, 43 thousand public libraries.

                    "They ravaged and plundered 98 thousand collective farms, 1876 state farms and 2890 machine and tractor stations; slaughtered, took away or drove to Germany 7 million horses, 17 million heads of cattle, 20 million pigs, 27 million sheep and goats , PO million heads of poultry. "
                    The figures cited by no means exhaust all the damage inflicted on the Soviet Union by the German fascist invaders. They cover only losses from the direct destruction of property of citizens, collective farms, public organizations, state enterprises and institutions ..

                    During the Patriotic War, the German fascist invaders destroyed and damaged on the territory of the USSR, which was under occupation, 1670 churches, 237 Roman Catholic churches, 69 chapels, 532 synagogues and 258 other buildings belonging to religious institutions.

                    They destroyed in Chernigov: the ancient Borisoglebsk cathedral, built at the beginning of the 1160th century, the Church of Paraskeva Pyatnitsa on the Torga - the most valuable monument of Russian architecture of the XNUMXth century. and the Cathedral of the Polotsk Euphrosinius Monastery, built in XNUMX.

                    During 1941-1945. the village was completely deprived of draft-age men fit to serve in the army; many boys and girls over the age of 14 were mobilized to study and work in industry. The CSO calculated that at the beginning of 1946 the number of able-bodied rural population (men from 14 to 59 years old and women from 14 to 54 years old) was no more than 74 million people, which corresponded to the level of 1931. Almost half of them were war invalids and labor. The number of healthy mature men was at least 2,5 times less than in 1940. In some areas that were under occupation, the situation was more difficult. All children over 10 years of age were obligatorily involved in labor. The main labor force was women, adolescents, and elderly men. In general, labor resources accounted for 50-60% of their needs6).

                    It didn’t end, it’s still going
                  8. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 5 January 2021 19: 15
                    0
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    the basis of life in the countryside is tax! the horses were eaten by the Germans. starving children, taken to Germany, requisitioned by the army, etc ... TRACTORS. since 1941, the production of any products for cx purposes was discontinued, how to plow ??? ...

                    Bessarabia was a part of ROMANIA for 22 years and it RETURNED to it until 1944 after one Soviet year 40.

                    Therefore, the Germans did not eat anything, and there was never a smell of tractors here. There were horses, but since 1945, I repeat a HUNDRED TIME, there was a drought, the soil broke into a barren stone.

                    and although grain procurements were reduced, they were still unfeasible a priori. And instead of leaving at least the little that was available, they dumped everything.

                    Then I had to return this volume and from above in order to feed the minimum.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Do you need a strategic supply of bread?

                    So bread ..... GIVEN Romanians and yengrams and sold them to France?
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Ravaged and outraged


                    There was NO fatal famine in Bessarabia even during 3 years of the war in occupation
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    They destroyed in Chernigov: the ancient Borisoglebsk cathedral, built at the beginning of the 1160th century, the Church of Paraskeva Pyatnitsa on the Torga - the most valuable monument of Russian architecture of the XNUMXth century. and the Cathedral of the Polotsk Euphrosinius Monastery, built in XNUMX.


                    Only Moscow Kremlin in Soviet times, more than HALF of the most valuable historical buildings and monuments were destroyed, in Moscow 453 cathedrals and churches, and in Russia, tens of thousands of monuments, incl. blown up the Tomb of Pozharsky, the tomb of Minin, Bagration, the main monuments to the Heroes of OV 1812, Nakhimov, Istomin, etc.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    The main labor force was women, teenagers

                    And the bread obtained at such a terrible price was sent FOR FREE abroad ...
                  9. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 5 January 2021 21: 28
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    And the bread obtained at such a terrible price was sent FOR FREE abroad ...

                    wink You seem to be haunted by the laurels of Solzhenitsyn with the millions who died in Kolyma ... smile I agree that 30% of the crop was lost. Here we come to agreement (consensus) smile
                    the numbers about sending bread abroad differ greatly. Liberal sites that pour slop on the USSR show cosmic figures, official documents say something else.
                    Gagauzia was formally annexed to the USSR in 1944, before that it fought with the USSR as part of Romania, so let's not cry over them, their corpses are the work of their authorities crying
                    sowing campaign 45 years old:

                    1946 harvest famine is inevitable

                    You yourself write about the wild drought, which was the worst in the 20th century, and blame the communists. Aren't you ashamed ?. some of them were heroes.
                    about sending grain for export: the grain harvest in 1946 was 39,6 million tons. 1,1 million tons were sent abroad. which is 2,5%. We, kind Russians, will tear off the last piece from ourselves so that the brotherly Gagauz and the Hungarian survive. soldier
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    in Soviet times, more than HALF of the most valuable historical buildings and monuments were destroyed, in Moscow 453 cathedrals and churches, and in Russia tens of thousands of monuments, incl. blown up

                    As far as I know, the churches were not looted by the Soviet regime, but by people with red and white ribbons. laughing officially the church was separated from the state and was not subject to taxes and other taxes. And all the crimes of the anarchists, monarchists, Makhnovists and others are automatically attributed by liberalism to the Soviet government - Because it happened during her time!
                    Olgovich !! your attempts to screw up history, and the history of the USSR is the history of Russia, will not lead to anything good. It was already in the 90s. muddled, printed a lot of things, brainwashed people, and destroyed the country. Do you want the same for Russia ??? Please only answer the last question
                  10. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 6 January 2021 11: 30
                    -2
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    You seem to be haunted by the laurels of Solzhenitsyn with the millions of those killed in Kolyma.

                    Have you refuted something? No.
                    On the numbers and facts, from you empty water about "it was good"
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Gagauzia was formally annexed to the USSR in 1944, before that it fought with the USSR as part of Romania, so let's not cry over them, their corpses are the work of their authorities

                    You did not study at school either, I see: Bessarabia (Gagauzia) has been a part of Russia since 1812, and the Gagauz people are a small people, always devoted to Russia and the Russians.

                    In Soviet Russia in 1918, then occupied, returned to the USSR in 1940
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    You yourself write about the wild drought, which was the worst in the 20th century, and blame the communists. Aren't you ashamed ?. some of them were heroes.
                    about sending grain for export: the grain harvest in 1946 was 39,6 million tons. 1,1 million tons were sent abroad. which is 2,5%. We, kind Russians, will tear off the last piece from ourselves so that the brotherly Gagauz and the Hungarian survive.

                    They were sent abroad, but they themselves died of hunger. Fine?
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    as far as I know the churches were looted not by the Soviet regime, but by people with red and white ribbons. officially the church was separated from the state and was not subject to taxes and other taxes. And all the crimes of the anarchists, monarchists, Makhnovists and others are automatically attributed by liberalism to the Soviet power - because it happened during her time!

                    Yes, you do not know anything, alas. You have one blind faith.
                    And yes, the authorities are responsible for everything.
                    Quote: aybolyt678
                    Olgovich !! your attempts to screw up history, and the history of the USSR is the history of Russia, will not lead to anything good. It was already in the 90s. muddled, printed a lot of things, brainwashed people, and destroyed the country. Do you want the same for Russia ??? Please only answer the last question
                    Answer: -You are talking nonsense
                    .
                    The power, which came in 1917, destroyed the country and ruled alone. Her lies were destructive, and the facts of the truth destroy nothing.

                    On this I take my leave hi
                  11. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 6 January 2021 12: 15
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    On this I take my leave

                    at last! yes
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    The power, which came in 1917, destroyed the country and ruled alone.

                    Power has united and augmented the country. The one who ruined - she's just namesake laughing
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    And yes, the authorities are responsible for everything.

                    Force majeure happens in any job
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Answer: -You are talking nonsense

                    I do not think that Comrade Stalin had pathologically developed cruelty and hatred of his people, as you think. What would you do in that situation?
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Her lies were destructive

                    illiteracy of later leaders, disguised by communist rituals
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    They were sent abroad, but they themselves died of hunger. Fine?

                    2,5% of feed grain for the sake of preserving breeding stock ?? wassat or did you have to eat to die in the next years?
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Have you refuted something? No.
                    yes, I constantly refute, you do not answer uncomfortable questions, you do not offer anything, you don't know what to do, what were the mistakes you can't imagine, you don't explain the motivation, I looked at your debates with other forum participants - everything is exactly the same, this point of view does not represent either cognitive or practical value. Thanks for reading smile
  • Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 2 January 2021 09: 28
    +8
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    Interestingly, the shortage of peasants (farmers) in our time is compensated by the formation of large agricultural holdings and agricultural concerns ...

    There will be no farmers as long as there are agricultural holdings. They do not need competitors if they need to provoke the swine flu and force the farmers to kill all the animals. Or the price will be lowered to make the farmer go broke. Moreover, the agricultural holdings themselves are offshore, that is, the profit goes to the side
  • Bar1
    Bar1 2 January 2021 14: 27
    +3
    This is not what Shpakovsky writes about. "Petty-bourgeois owners" in Russia are peasants who have wanted land all their lives. They received it, before collectivization, and tried to organize commodity production of different crops on their plots. , and the imperfection of agronomic techniques and most importantly; The Bolsheviks wanted that there would no longer be any private property and hired labor, but it was precisely these relations of production that came into conflict with the productive forces of that time. The peasants were owners, they had to produce agricultural products and sell them on the markets or the state had to buy peasant products at negotiated prices. But the Bolshevik state could not establish this. And then the expropriation of peasants began under the name -collectivization, i.e. socialization, peasants were herded into collective farms, and horses, cattle, agricultural implements were socialized and as a result, for many years and decades they received the lowest-productivity agricultural production in the world. This pressing problem could not be solved until the end even in the last USSR, because the theory of the Bolsheviks turned out to be false and has no connection with reality.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 15: 18
      0
      Timur! Here you are well done, my deepest bow to you. Sorry to have offended you in some of the comments. Fundamental knowledge is more important than crescents on the banners !!!
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 2 January 2021 16: 57
        -3
        let's look at your behavior.
        1. kalibr
          2 January 2021 18: 07
          +3
          If you rave about Tartary - I honestly say - I am not responsible for myself.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 2 January 2021 21: 33
            0
            I will continue to deal with a real, not a fictional story.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 15: 38
      +8
      Quote: Bar1
      They got it before collectivization and tried to organize commodity production of different cultures on their plots.


      Timur You are wrong! Rather, you are right about the units, the rest of the peasants could not dispose of the land they received. For the most part, the mistakes of the state-owned enterprise killed the peasants' confidence in the authorities. After 1923, when the government turned its face to the peasants, the latter did not appreciate it. More precisely, they did not fit into the roles assigned to them. I am sure that if Bukharin's ideas on the artel development of agriculture had shown their effectiveness, then those measures that Stalin had taken would not have been needed. Moreover, the state would have helped with industrial goods and equipment.
      Also, MTS were not invented for collective farms, but were planned for communes and artels.
      And the way it was under the tsar priest. The peasant did not go to buy a steel plow, seeder or mower, but plowed with a plow, counted from a sieve, and mowed with a scythe. This way of life could only feed his family. But he was self-sufficient. More terrible for the state was that it did not want to develop.
      This was the trouble of the Russian peasant.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 2 January 2021 16: 25
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Rather, you are right about the units, the rest of the peasants could not dispose of the land they received.

        the connection between town and village is a natural process. The peasants exchange agricultural products for the industrial goods necessary for work and everyday life. The Bolsheviks only had to allow free or conditionally free (regulation of prices within small limits with a profit rate of 15%) relations. And everything could work out saboy itself. But the Bolsheviks preferred to destroy ALL market relations: remember the world-famous Novgorod fair at which the world prices for bread were formed. The Bolsheviks write that they liquidated the fair i.e. many capital buildings were simply demolished.


        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        More terrible for the state was that it did not want to develop.


        I don’t think so, the possibilities of the country and the peasantry in Russia were great. For example, here is a map of the world's black soil. It turns out that most of the world's black soil is in Russia. The question arises, how could agricultural production be established in such a way that low yields could be obtained on the best lands? Maybe the Bolsheviks were doing this?

        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 18: 10
          +1
          the connection between town and country is a natural process. The peasants exchange agricultural products for industrial goods necessary for work and everyday life.

          The problem is that the individual peasant could not switch to the production of agricultural products in marketable volumes. After the revolution, he increased his allotment, but in most cases he cultivated it with the old means of production. Which he produced himself or purchased from a blacksmith or saddle-maker across the road, not from industry. Moreover, he was not interested in development. He fed himself and his family and all right.
          By the way, at the beginning of the 21st century in Holland, one person involved in agriculture fed 100 people, in the USA - 50. In Russia, the peasantry in the 20s of the last century barely fed themselves and 10% of workers and officials.
          In fact, this is worse than in 1913.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 2 January 2021 19: 02
            +2
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Moreover, he was not interested in development. He fed himself and his family and all right.

            how can this be? To forge a tractor or even a plow in a village smithy, the farmer himself must have a cart, a harness, a horse collar. He himself cannot and should not do this.
            To increase the yield, pesticides and herbicides, fertilizers are needed. Where can I get all this?
            Clothes, shoes for the family - the same thing, bricks for the stove - all this is purchased from the city at the bazaar / market.
            All this can only be provided by the city and the realization must go through bazaars / fairs / markets.
            How is it "not interested?"
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 2 January 2021 17: 10
        +2
        "Virgin Soil Upturned" has already been mentioned. One of the moments of memorable moments when Frol Equal takes out the paper: "You yourself signed that you handed over the grain."
    3. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 2 January 2021 16: 59
      +4
      Quote: Bar1
      The peasants were owners, they had to produce agricultural products and sell them on the markets, or the state had to buy peasant products at negotiated prices.

      They should have been, but ... they couldn't! Before the revolution, many peasants were forced to BUY bread with their hump for their own food, let alone sell it. And after the revolution, as a result of the liquidation of the landowners' farms - the main producers of marketable grain, it became even worse.
      Quote: Bar1
      But this Bolshevik state could not establish

      And no other could. Comrade Stalin and the Politburo at first also thought so - it is necessary to develop a cooperative. trade, then, they say, the peasant will give even bread. Until one knowledgeable person put him, Stalin, in his brains.
  • apro
    apro 2 January 2021 05: 24
    -3
    Yes .... gShpakovsky .. fell ??? which is not characteristic. Or understood something in that situation. Which developed in the USSR.
    The transformation of the peasant way of life immediately into an industrial socialist. Passing capitalism. Cannot be simple ... the way of life interferes.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 08: 16
      +3
      Quote: apro
      Yes .... gShpakovsky .. fell ??? which is not characteristic. Or understood something in that situation. Which developed in the USSR.

      I have lectured about this in the course of cultural studies since 1995. My hands just didn't reach ...
      1. apro
        apro 2 January 2021 08: 42
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        I have lectured about this in the course of cultural studies since 1995

        And if you understood the situation, even in those distant times, why such a rejection of the policy of the Reds in the peasant question? In agricultural construction?
        1. kalibr
          2 January 2021 08: 47
          +6
          Quote: apro
          why such a rejection of the policy of the Reds in the peasant question? in agricultural construction?

          Why rejection? Where and when did I write about this? There is an objective process. He may not like it, but he is like a change of seasons. The destruction of the peasant way of life is a historical necessity. This is a brake on the development of society. And society does not tolerate brakes.
          1. apro
            apro 2 January 2021 08: 53
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            And society does not tolerate brakes.

            Well said ... but it gets to the nuts, mostly progressives, which break the old way of life, push society forward, which doesn't really strive to change something.
            Quote: kalibr
            Why rejection? Where and when did I write about this?

            Constantly ... how the Reds destroyed the flourishing Russian paradise on earth ...
            1. kalibr
              2 January 2021 09: 53
              +9
              Quote: apro
              Constantly ... how the Reds destroyed the flourishing Russian paradise on earth ...

              I wrote about the flourishing Russian paradise under the tsar? God be with you, today is January 2 ... You are clearly confusing me with one of the commentators. On the contrary, I write all the time that "not rotten walls" do not fall apart!
      2. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 2 January 2021 19: 10
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        I have lectured about this in the course of cultural studies since 1995

        Culturology is not the history of the CPSU for you ...
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 07: 11
    +13
    in order to satisfy the demands of all these masses, after the October coup, Lenin decided to abandon the Bolshevik program of creating large model farms on the basis of landowners. And, as the peasants and Socialist-Revolutionaries demanded - to give and divide all the land of the landowners!

    Lenin did not refuse to create large farms, there were simply few of them, most of the landowners did not have large farms, the land was simply leased to the peasants. And on the basis of large landowners, monastic farms and state horse farms, state farms were created. An example is the Lenin state farm in Vidnoye near Moscow, founded in November 1918, this is a former monastery farm. Lenin understood that the small farmer would not be as efficient as compared to large farms with the principles of division of labor and the possibility of mechanization. It was the idea of ​​small-scale farming that got us started in the 90s.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 08: 43
      +1
      You read Stalin's report ...
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 January 2021 07: 30
    -1
    Unfortunately, Sharikov's proposal: “Take and divide” did not appear out of nowhere.

    There will always be those willing to share. It would be that. You can at least remember a fairy tale about a fox and two greedy cubs.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 07: 47
    +10
    Quote: Korsar4
    Unfortunately, Sharikov's proposal: “Take and divide” did not appear out of nowhere.

    There will always be those willing to share. It would be that. You can at least remember a fairy tale about a fox and two greedy cubs.

    Sharikov's proposal was fully implemented by Yeltsin and Chubais with the help of vouchers.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 08: 04
      +11
      According to vouchers in Russia, a deliberately vicious and doomed decision. More precisely, "snag", when the population was given a candy wrapper instead of candy.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 2 January 2021 10: 03
      +3
      This is one example.
  • Polymer
    Polymer 2 January 2021 08: 23
    +7
    I recall the slogan of the times of the USSR "Lenin is still more alive than all the living!" This is undeniable in my opinion. Let's interpolate this quote from him at the time of the end of perestroika:
    The giant petty-bourgeois wave swept over everything, the conscious proletariat suppressed not only with its numbers, but also ideologically, that is, it infected, captured very wide circles of workers with petty-bourgeois views on politics.

    and we understand the deep reasons for the collapse of the USSR, as well as the methods used to transform the consciousness of the masses, used by the enemies of Soviet power since the time of Khrushchev.
    Continuation of the quote:
    The petty bourgeoisie in life depends on the bourgeoisie, living itself in a proletarian way, and not in a proletarian way (in the sense of a place in social production), and in the way of thinking it follows the bourgeoisie.

    relevant now. Despite the multitude of all kinds of programs to support small and medium-sized businesses, at the slightest crisis, the petty bourgeoisie drowns first. But politically he is always on the side of big business.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 08: 48
      +9
      Quote: Polymer
      But politically he is always on the side of big business.

      Because he hopes to take his place!
      1. Polymer
        Polymer 2 January 2021 09: 00
        +11
        Quote: kalibr
        Because he hopes to take his place!

        Any petty bourgeois is always ready to grow bigger - it was said about this in the Manifesto.
      2. Drugov
        Drugov 2 January 2021 18: 43
        0
        It's almost impossible. Strangers are not allowed on top.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 08: 28
    +2
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    According to vouchers in Russia, a deliberately vicious and doomed decision. More precisely, "snag", when the population was given a candy wrapper instead of candy.


    I agree that the principle of taking and dividing was more fairly implemented in Czechoslovakia, our vouchers were depersonalized and there was an opportunity to buy these, as you put it, "candy wrappers" in order to create an oligarchy, in Czechoslovakia there were personalized vouchers and it was impossible to sell them.
    1. apro
      apro 2 January 2021 10: 23
      -1
      Quote: Konnick
      Czechoslovakia had personalized vouchers and could not be sold.

      And what helped? Under the Germans lay down as usual ...
    2. Petr Vladimirovich
      Petr Vladimirovich 2 January 2021 19: 27
      +1
      I confirm. Plus a ban on the export of money abroad. As a result, no oligarchs, no inflation ...
  • Plantagenet
    Plantagenet 2 January 2021 08: 44
    +1
    "It is true that Lenin had an eagle flight, he could simply surprise: in one night he turned -" land - to the peasants! " (and we'll see), one day he invented the Brest Peace (after all, it’s not that it hurts a Russian, even a Georgian, to give half of Russia to the Germans, but it doesn’t hurt him!). Do not talk about NEP at all, it is the most cunning of all, such maneuvers are not a shame to learn.
    What was above all in Lenin was super remarkable: he held real power most firmly only in his own hands. Slogans changed, discussion topics changed, allies and opponents changed, and full power remained only in our own hands! "

    A.I. Solzhenitsyn "In the first circle"
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 08: 49
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    You read Stalin's report ...

    And any link, date or title of the report can be, I want to read
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 09: 20
      +2
      And you read the article to the end ...
    2. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 2 January 2021 09: 32
      +1
      Quote: Konnick
      https://istmat.info/node/20180

      At the end of the article, the source, and link hi
      https://istmat.info/node/20180
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 08: 51
    +8
    Quote: Plantagenet
    Solzhenitsyn "In the first circle"

    Such a source is bad manners. You would still use mein kampf.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 08: 59
    +5
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Polymer
    But politically he is always on the side of big business.

    Because he hopes to take his place!

    Purely servile psychology of the petty-bourgeois owner. I agree completely.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 09: 32
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    And you read the article to the end ...


    I finished reading and looked at the links and did not find in the links where Lenin refused large agricultural enterprises. Therefore, I asked if you can give an exact quote.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 09: 49
      +1
      It seemed to me that you mean Stalin's report and not to me alone. And where he refuses ... "There" - compare the Bolshevik program of municipalization and the decree on land. So what kind of "exact quote" can we talk about?
  • bubalik
    bubalik 2 January 2021 09: 49
    +4
    The situation became so acute that on January 15, 1928, Stalin personally went to Siberia. And what did the peasants say to him there?

    № 248

    Sent by Comrade Berry, Deribasu,

    Molotov, Moskvin, Roshal

    In connection with international events among the former. Red partisans, mainly among those expelled from the party, are anti-Soviet sentiments. Characteristic in this respect is the draft letter of the former. partisan, ex. member of the CPSU (b), a poor man with. Shelabolikhi, compiled on behalf of 22 partisans and addressed to Comrade. Stalin.
    “We are partisans, liberators of Siberia, we are making a request. In 1919 we fought against Kolchak, abandoned our farms, our families, and went to liberate the working class and ourselves with a lance in our hands. Kolchak shot us, mocked our families and ruined the economy. We fought and did not spare our heads, but now our Shelabolikhinskaya Party organization has thrown us into the cesspool and is not pulling us out. We ask you to answer - where is our revolutionary merit? We do not see a single partisan in power. We fearlessly participated in the battles against Kolchak and we have no benefits. To enter the party, you need to have 3 guarantors and you will be a candidate for 3 years. We think that we, partisans, should be admitted to the party immediately as a member, because we showed our idea in practice, and not on paper. We do not see a partisan in any institution, probably, we are unworthy of our merit, which did not give mercy to the bourgeoisie. We hope that if the Party does not completely throw us away from itself, then we will not allow the remaining White Guard henchmen to raise their heads. We do not like the communist who serves for a salary. They got in such paper party, which are not ideological, and we, the partisans, who have shown this in practice, all this untruth is nipped in the bud. "

    In addition, some ex. the partisans threaten that in case of war they will not go to war, but will rise up, overthrow the soviet power and deal with the communists: "Again they will have to take up arms and seek freedom." "To hell with them, with the communists, in due time we will show and remember how we can chop off heads." "Soon there will be a war, then you will not deceive us, we will show all the communists."
    Extract from the OGPU information department from the report of the OGPU Barnaul okrotdel on the anti-Soviet sentiments of former partisans dated July 25, 1927 July 28, 1927
    CA FSB RF. F. 2. Op. 5.D. 388.L. 257.
    Source: Soviet village through the eyes of the Cheka-OGPU-NKVD. 1918-1939. Documents and materials. In 4 volumes / T. 2. pp. 569-570
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 2 January 2021 16: 56
      0
      Quote: bubalik
      We are partisans, liberators of Siberia, we are making a request. In 1919

      uprising CHEMBARNIKOV, in Siberia, the peasants were shot, and in the Tambov province Tukhachevsky poisoned the peasants with gases.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 09: 51
    +6
    Quote: Olgovich
    , a good result of industrialization was achieved, but at the cost of a catastrophe and robbery of the Russian peasantry, which led to its extinction (mortality is more than births) already from the end of 1950, depopulation of vast expanses of central Russia, abandoned millions of hectares of arable land, a million empty houses, the Russian cross,

    This is complete insanity.
    Collectivization made it possible to mechanize heavy, unproductive peasant labor on the land. And only with the collective farm did my grandfathers and grandmothers eat plenty of white bread. And if you are talking about the so-called "Holodomor", then I can tell why it was and was only in Ukrainian villages and farms, regardless of whether they were in Russia or in Ukraine. And this hunger happened because of the servile psychology, my hut is on the edge, why should I take my bull to the collective farm, let my neighbor bring him, and I'll slaughter mine and sell my meat and bury my grain. Dosed up to glitches because of their narrow-mindedness.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 10: 20
      +4
      Sholokhov's letter to Stalin says the opposite!
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 2 January 2021 13: 30
        +4
        "Dizziness with Success (On the Questions of the Collective Farm Movement)" I. Stalin. It is strange that they did not remember this article. wink wink
        "... To tease a peasant collective farmer by socializing residential buildings, all dairy cattle, all small livestock, poultry, when the grain problem has not yet been resolved, when the artel form of collective farms has not yet been fixed, is it not clear that such a" policy "can be pleasing and beneficial only to our sworn enemies? ....
        "... I'm not even talking about those, if I may say so," revolutionaries "who begin the business of organizing an artel by removing the bells. Removing the bells - just think what kind of r-revolutionary! ...".
        1. kalibr
          2 January 2021 15: 04
          0
          Quote: There was a mammoth
          It is strange that they did not remember this article.

          I couldn't remember this article because my article ended in 30 years. It’s still early ... But in fact, he dumped in it from a sick head to a healthy one. Read what orders he gave during a trip to Siberia. That is, everything went from above, it was politics, and there have always been and will be, alas!
          1. Was mammoth
            Was mammoth 2 January 2021 20: 08
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            Read what orders he gave during a trip to Siberia.

            No way to fry children for lunch? wink
            I re-read the recommended article by I. Stalin. It would be strange if Stalin was engaged in artistic craft, and not politics.
            He, however, was not only the head of the world's first socialist state, but also a theoretician. By the way, the main thing in the article is "... we have a certain gap between practical success and the development of theoretical thought. Meanwhile, it is necessary that theoretical work not only keep pace with practical work, but also outpace it, equipping our practitioners in their struggle for the victory of socialism."
            "... It would be good if our Marxist economists selected a special group of workers to work out the problems of the economy in transition in their new formulation at the current stage of development."

            This is from the article you are analyzing.
            Have you noticed that the "lover of fried children" with someone, however, is also controversial? belay
            1. kalibr
              2 January 2021 20: 13
              0
              So it will be the same at the speech at the 16th Congress. It will even indicate with whom exactly. It's not funny about children ...
              1. Was mammoth
                Was mammoth 2 January 2021 21: 07
                +1
                Quote: kalibr
                So it will be the same at the speech at the 16th Congress.

                It’s logical. Before the congress:
                "... the collection of 220 million poods of seeds along the collective farm line alone after the successful fulfillment of the grain procurement plan is a tremendous achievement. What does all this say? That the radical turn of the countryside towards socialism can be considered already secured."
                I have read one more literature recommended by you. "Ivan's Life".
                Undoubtedly interesting observations. From an ethnographic and now, a historical point of view. A young lady who looks down on the people, and who, for sure, in our times would become an ego or a goth. What words can be found for her observations? The Russian people lived at the level of animal instincts and were cruel, envious, lazy, thieving, dissolute, always hungry and drunk ... That backfired on the descendants of the great geographer and explorer after the revolution.
                By the way, you upset me with this recommendation. Did not know. P.P. Semenov-Tyan-Shansky is one of the active developers of the 1861 reform. And, the observations were carried out in the village that belonged to him. belay

                "Why are there three horses on the farm?" One of the readers asked me. But for what: you plow on two, and the third (or even two) rests (or is still busy at some kind of work).
                The controversy about the three horses is funny.
                O. Semenova-Tyan-Shanskaya herself wrote about one horse, one cow and two sheep. wink
                P, S. Don't you find that your second paragraph of the last article looks like plagiarism? wink
                1. kalibr
                  2 January 2021 22: 10
                  +1
                  Quote: There was a mammoth
                  P, S. Don't you find that your second paragraph of the last article looks like plagiarism?

                  I cannot have plagiarism by definition: all texts are checked for novelty according to the Advego-Plagiatus system and I do not hand over texts with novelty less than 90%. And where borrowing or direct citation is given a link in [].
                  1. Was mammoth
                    Was mammoth 2 January 2021 22: 46
                    +1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    I can't have plagiarism by definition

                    Don't be discouraged. ! "And there is a hole in the old woman." Painfully strikes the eye. Foreword.
                    "From the book we learn that an average-income peasant owned a considerable farm, which had three horses, fifteen sheep and other cattle; we learn how much it cost - starting from building a stone house and ending with a cut for cabbage; what was the family's budget and what, it turns out that there was a division of property between husband and wife; how they wooed and why, contrary to our opinion about the chastity of the pre-revolutionary village, they often cohabited before marriage; at what age did they marry and get married, what dowry was given for the bride; how often did the husband beat his wife and for what; how they bore, gave birth and raised children; what they ate and drank, what they dressed; how they got sick and how they were treated; how they worked and had fun; how much this or that work cost and what subsidiary trades existed; what taxes were paid and how they experienced hesitation prices ... And much, much more. "
                    Compilation, however.
                    1. kalibr
                      3 January 2021 08: 50
                      0
                      I’m not upset. 90% of articles are compiled today. The question, I repeat, is verification. There is the Advego system, there is the Text guide ... take it, insert it - they will even indicate the% where it came from !!!
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 3 January 2021 09: 05
                        0
                        And here is already a definite dilemma: either focus on 10% or publish articles every day.

                        Moreover, if in the natural or technical sciences it is necessary to conduct an experiment, then in the humanitarian sciences - the building is built from bricks.

                        And to feel the connection of materials it may take a month or decades.
                      2. kalibr
                        3 January 2021 09: 08
                        +1
                        Sergei! If you are guided by the original articles, then only the column "opinions" will be replenished. As for everything else, a once a month article is at its best. And its cost will be many times ... And then users of the Web will have to pay for it! And the Internet will become more valuable and inaccessible to 90% of ordinary people!
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 3 January 2021 09: 12
                        0
                        Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich. I understand this.
                        We have already recalled that two articles a year is a good result.

                        It's just fun to watch how "like" on social networks turns into the scientometrics of citation, for example.
                      4. kalibr
                        3 January 2021 09: 21
                        +2
                        I have two journalist friends who trained, one in Germany, the other in the United States. So there is a difference - a reporter and a journalist. The first one works as a firefighter, his phone is connected to the police, firefighters, rescue ... How where is something - to leave and in half an hour there is ready news: the house is on fire, a man fell out of the window, the driver ran over a dog in a collar ... The journalist writes 4 articles in year. with a salary of $ 40 thousand (beginner). And most of all he pays attention to the fact that later on the newspaper or magazine is not sued! This is the main requirement. In my card of the journalist of the International Association it is generally written that all officials and organizations should provide all possible assistance during the mission. Although they are fighting with journalists "there" ... For example, they give ALL the papers and look for them ... Like, they will get bored and will not find the right one, ha ha! Well, it happens over the head ... But it is like that everywhere. But 4 articles !!!
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 3 January 2021 10: 16
                        +1
                        Three months of work isn't that much.
                        And even more so for a beginner to understand the topic.
                  2. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 3 January 2021 09: 16
                    0
                    On the other hand, remember Gogol's "Portrait". All plots are in world and domestic literature.
                  3. kalibr
                    3 January 2021 12: 14
                    +1
                    So ... and Shakespeare borrowed almost all the plots from sagas, legends ... And nothing!
                  4. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 3 January 2021 12: 26
                    +1
                    And Homer and Dumas too.

                    It would be interesting to look at Shakespeare's schedule.
          2. Was mammoth
            Was mammoth 3 January 2021 13: 17
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            I’m not upset. 90% of articles are compiled today.

            "Oh, times, oh, morals!" wink
            Previously how? “Stole, drank, to jail!” Now I cheated, compiled, and OK, people will go.
            A good meaning of an imported word is a translation from a high language level to a low one. wink
            But, there is a sense in your compilations. Makar Nagulnov is just a clearing-commune, revolutionary - they hiss. The Bolsheviks made the peasants live better.
            "I will compile too. wink
  • kalibr
    2 January 2021 10: 23
    +4
    Quote: Konnick
    Dosed up to glitches because of their narrow-mindedness.

    Just like in the newspaper Pravda - "the kulaks rested, they prefer to die of hunger, but don't go to the collective farm!"
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 4 January 2021 12: 42
      0
      No, literally. At the time, there was a grain contamination with ergot, a fungus that contains the psychedelic LSD. So if you do not dry the grain and do not wind it, then when the grain is stored in secret pits at high humidity, a natural drug LSD is formed, which is deadly in case of an overdose and is highly hallucinogenic. Hence all sorts of zksessy during the so-called "Holodomor".
      1. kalibr
        4 January 2021 12: 44
        0
        And it happened, who argues. But it is impossible to find out exactly, alas!
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 4 January 2021 13: 17
          0
          No, it's a proven fact
  • kalibr
    2 January 2021 10: 24
    +1
    Quote: Konnick
    my grandparents ate plenty of white bread.

    So you mean the 2nd generation of townspeople? Well then, everything is clear ...
    1. ANB
      ANB 2 January 2021 15: 12
      +4
      ... So you mean the 2nd generation of townspeople? Well then, everything is clear ...

      I wonder who I am?
      Was born in the village. My mother moved to the city, already with me.
      At the same time, my grandmother and grandfather, their brothers, sisters and their spouses almost all had higher education. Grandfather's brother is a lieutenant colonel of the Navy's medical service. Mom also has a higher, like me.
      The generation number in the city means nothing.
      1. kalibr
        2 January 2021 18: 14
        0
        No, Andrei, you are wrong. It also means a lot. Higher education means very little. The question is in your environment. You know that a wolf's sense of smell erupts very early. Almost immediately after birth. And if you take the blind wolves from their mother, they will still be wolves from the famous saying. But there are cubs with a developmental delay of two weeks. Now, if you take these and educate - there will be dogs! So it is with people. It is important what kind of environment you saw around you up to 3-5 years.
        1. ANB
          ANB 2 January 2021 18: 25
          +3
          ... It is important what kind of environment you saw around you up to 3-5 years.

          I saw the village. I also went to school in the first grade in the village, as the city did not take from the age of 6.
          And what does it mean?
          My village childhood did not at all prevent my parents from getting higher education. And for me - to graduate from LNVMU, VVMURE, first become an officer, and then, in retirement, I hope, a good programmer.
          At the same time, I have seen repeatedly not smart and ill-mannered people, townspeople in an unknown generation.
          In the USSR, a city or a village meant little. More dependent on the family. And school meant a lot too. There was a very good school in our village. I regret that they took me to the city for the second grade.
          1. kalibr
            2 January 2021 19: 29
            0
            Quote: ANB
            I saw the village. I also went to school in the first grade in the village, as the city did not take from the age of 6.
            And what does it mean?
            My village childhood did not at all prevent my parents from getting higher education. And for me - to graduate from LNVMU, VVMURE, first become an officer, and then, in retirement, I hope, a good programmer.
            At the same time, I have seen repeatedly not smart and ill-mannered people, townspeople in an unknown generation.
            In the USSR, a city or a village meant little. More dependent on the family. And school meant a lot too. There was a very good school in our village. I regret that they took me to the city for the second grade.

            This is all true. But not entirely true. I can't paint everything here
            Quote: ANB
            At the same time, I have seen repeatedly not smart and ill-mannered people, townspeople in an unknown generation.
            But this is interesting. In which?
            1. ANB
              ANB 2 January 2021 19: 36
              0
              ... But this is interesting. In which?

              They themselves did not remember. How to find out what?
              ... I can't paint everything here

              I can not either. So, I will hint - can an ill-mannered person become a sufficiently high-ranking career diplomat?
              1. kalibr
                2 January 2021 20: 17
                0
                Quote: ANB
                I can not either. So, I will hint - can an ill-mannered person become a sufficiently high-ranking career diplomat?

                Andrei! Well ... you are an educated diplomat, but you don’t understand or don’t want to understand. Anything can be. All. But there are statistics, and they say that ... You are wrong. And the song is not without reason: "I have become a city now ... but I dream ... I don't want to let go ...". How does this manifest itself in each specific case? Who knows ... In yours, maybe nothing, but in some others ... very much. But these are matters for a separate article that needs to be prepared. I'll write you something funny better ...
                1. ANB
                  ANB 2 January 2021 20: 26
                  0
                  ... Anything can be. All. But there are statistics, and they say that ... you are wrong

                  It looks like we're starting to agree.
                  IMHO: Rustic and urban upbringing is not necessarily determinative. But, since I do not own statistics on a large sample, I will not argue with you either.
                  It is possible that you are right. However, there is also a fairly large layer of exceptions from general statistics. Therefore, it is wrong to determine the upbringing and intelligence of a person on whether he is rural or urban.
                  1. kalibr
                    2 January 2021 20: 37
                    0
                    Quote: ANB
                    Therefore, it is wrong to determine the upbringing and intelligence of a person on whether he is rural or urban.

                    I dealt with this issue with my students. Were taken THREE schools in Penza. 6th (special. Very prestigious), some kind of gymnasium ... and a school in a residential area. Only two questions were asked. First, what is public relations or PR? Second, do you have direct relatives in the village ... up to and including grandparents.
                    In the 6th, there were 6% of them and almost everyone had heard about it, although, of course, no one knew exactly what it was. In the gymnasium, 50% to 50%, and there from a class of 25 people, 10 knew, although they were confused with advertising. In a dormitory area in a class of 30 people. nobody knew, 90% had direct relatives in the village. It is clear that children do not need this. But the theory of information unequivocally says that it is precisely the redundancy of information that determines the development of intelligence, the broad outlook of the individual, and her culture as a whole. That's all! And it was not me who invented everything ...
                    1. ANB
                      ANB 2 January 2021 21: 04
                      0
                      ... But the theory of information unequivocally says that it is precisely the redundancy of information that determines the development of intelligence, the broad outlook of the individual, and her culture as a whole. That's all! And it was not me who invented everything ...

                      It looks like the school in my village was cooler than yours in Penza :)
                      We had a lot of information. And I have not seen so many manuals in city schools. I partially agree with you, since those who remained from my class in the village still live there. And it is quite possible that they do not know what PR is. To my shame, I will not give you a clear definition of this term either.
                      But I know what a transaction is :)
                    2. kalibr
                      2 January 2021 22: 06
                      +1
                      Quote: ANB
                      To my shame, I will not give you a clear definition of this term either.

                      It's just not a shame. There are more than 500 definitions, even experts do not know them.
                  2. Undecim
                    Undecim 3 January 2021 02: 11
                    +1
                    Here it is, but I was born and raised in the village, but I learned about the existence of public opinion, the factors of formation and the use to manipulate the masses at school.
                  3. kalibr
                    3 January 2021 08: 47
                    0
                    That once again speaks about the difference ... in everything, right? After all, my wife and I also worked in the village for three years and answered ALL the guys' questions. Of course, I knew less then than today, but for that time - oh-oh. So my children also learned a lot from us.
            2. ANB
              ANB 2 January 2021 20: 28
              +1
              ... you are educated diplomat

              I'm not a diplomat :) But my uncle. The first generation in the city. Yes, further it is possible and in a personal.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 4 January 2021 13: 21
    0
    The great-grandmother was illiterate, the grandmother was semi-literate, but her children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, all with absolutely higher education, achieved a lot in their careers, and one with a scientific degree after Moscow State University.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 10: 02
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    It seemed to me that you mean Stalin's report and not to me alone. And where he refuses ... "There" - compare the Bolshevik program of municipalization and the decree on land. So what kind of "exact quote" can we talk about?


    Quote: Konnick
    Lenin did not refuse to create large farms, there were simply few of them, most of the landowners did not have large farms, the land was simply leased to the peasants. And on the basis of large landowners, monastic farms and state horse farms, state farms were created. An example is the state farm named after V.I. Lenin in
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 10: 05
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    So what kind of "exact quote" can we talk about?

    Where Lenin refused to create large agricultural enterprises.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 10: 21
      +1
      One more time: compare the Bolshevik program of municipalization and the decree on land... There you will find exact quotes and inaccurate ones ...
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 10: 21
    +6
    Quote: Olgovich
    In 1989, HALF of settlements disappeared from the face of Russia (see census)!
    What kind of war was over Russia ?!

    How you can use data manipulation to promote your crumbled principles.
    Yes, we do not need so many villagers now because of the increase in productivity and the improvement of agricultural production. Also in the 30s, the rural population decreased due to the creation of collective farms and MTS. And leave the pre-revolutionary 80% of the rural population in tsarist Russia.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 11: 20
      +5
      Quote: Konnick
      Yes, there is no need now for such a number of villagers because of the growth of productivity and the improvement of agricultural production.

      That's right!
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 10: 29
    +4
    Quote: apro
    Quote: Konnick
    Czechoslovakia had personalized vouchers and could not be sold.

    And what helped? Under the Germans lay down as usual ...

    Yes, but there are no oligarchs

    The main thing that let us down was the colossal gap between the rhetoric of the reformers and their real actions ... And it seems to me that the Russian leadership surpassed the most fantastic ideas of the Marxists about capitalism: they considered that the state's business was to serve a narrow circle of capitalists, pumping into their pockets as much money as possible and sooner. This is not shock therapy. This is a malicious, deliberate, well-thought-out action, aimed at a large-scale redistribution of wealth in the interests of a narrow circle of people

    This is a quote from Jeffrey Sachs, leader of the shock therapy policy development team in Bolivia, Poland and Russia. From autumn 1991 to January 1994, he was the head of a group of economic advisers to Russian President Boris Yeltsin. In 1998, Sachs negatively assessed a number of actions by Russian reformers. Therefore, the vouchers were depersonalized.
  • Stalker84
    Stalker84 2 January 2021 10: 42
    +5
    Uv subscribers, it is fashionable to treat Lenin as you like, but chelrvek he was no doubt smart. And he wrote the right things. I think that modern Russia in terms of democracy and civil society has not gone very far from the Republic of Ingushetia. In fact, we are almost in order now. And one of the reasons why the elite in every possible way hinders the development of the "middle class" is precisely the fact that it is the class of middle owners that this elite and the power created by it can demolish. Because these people have, firstly, resources, and secondly, management experience. That is, they can really take power and keep it. Well, we remember the bourgeois revolutions in Europe, the classics. And in this regard, I understand why the government, unlike Europe and the United States, practically does not provide support to small business in a pandemic. The big man is doing well anyway, the bureaucrats are the same. And these owners of shops and fitness clubs criticize the authorities forever, they are not happy with something. They look at Navalny, and they want some kind of rights and participation in politics. At the same time, the government also trolls its electorate with all sorts of unpopular measures. But those who vote for Putin and United Russia, they are that petty-bourgeois wave. Many thanks to the author for the article.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 11: 19
      +1
      Quote: Stalker84
      they are that petty-bourgeois wave.

      That's it!
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 10: 49
    +8
    Quote: kalibr
    Sholokhov's letter to Stalin says the opposite!

    And you read the Virgin Land Raised more attentively, at least an episode with the socialization of chickens, as the chickens were almost destroyed in Veshki, but Davydov stopped such a quiet sabotage. These are the excesses. On the Don, two psychologies collided - the Ukrainian individual farmer and the Russian community member. And there were no communities on the Don. From the history of my family I will tell you about the creation of a collective farm.
    During the Stolypin reforms, a group of strong farms left the rural community and moved to abandoned swampy lands, did not go to Siberia, but there were simply such plots nearby and the Stolypin reform allowed it to be done. They were given this abandoned land. My great-grandfather had good agronomic and technical training, thanks to his work as an assistant gardener in captivity in Japan after Tsushima, so the men managed to reclaim by hand and improve the land. They created a common garden, a smithy, a stable, an apiary, all of which were under collective management. When the time came for collectivization, as they say, they only changed the sign. But everyone always had a large personal economy. The war caused real damage to the village, my grandfather, the first chairman of the collective farm, died near Rzhev, half of the men perished in the war. As my grandmother said, it was painfully good to live before the war, so it happened. The second blow was made by Khrushchev, who united the collective farms, dispersed the MTS on small bolts and taxed private farms.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 11: 17
      +1
      There are always positive / negative personal examples. But there is a law of large numbers ...
    2. apro
      apro 2 January 2021 11: 21
      -2
      Quote: Konnick
      As my grandmother said, it was painfully good to live before the war, so it happened.

      It's not the first time I've heard this ...
    3. ANB
      ANB 2 January 2021 15: 19
      +3
      ... The second blow was made by Khrushchev, who united the collective farms, dispersed MTS in small bolts and taxed private farms

      I agree. My grandmother told me the same thing when he once asked why we go to the collective farm garden for fruit, and not pick our own.
      Because in the village it was clearly visible the division of household plots into a garden and a vegetable garden, but there were few trees.
      Under Khrushchev, everything was cut down.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 11: 09
    +3
    At one time, he studied in detail the work of the artist Kryzhitsky, famous before the revolution, and came across an article in Kommersant with a mention of his son G.K. Kryzhitsky.

    Large owners suspected of disloyalty to the authorities today, as in the old days, will soon be left with nothing. However, there are exceptions to any rule. In the USSR, as the Vlast columnist Yevgeny Zhirnov found out, the former owners of the expropriated property continued to use it years after the revolution.

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/1180298
    An interesting article about large agricultural enterprises after the revolution.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 11: 15
      +2
      I read. But they did not make the weather. Otherwise collectivization would not have been needed!
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 2 January 2021 11: 17
        +2
        And why not use, very interesting facts are given. At least they would give a link.
        1. kalibr
          2 January 2021 12: 05
          +2
          And a lot of interesting things. You know how many interesting things there are in the Motherland, in Questions of History, what interesting dissertations on the peasantry are. But it was checked: "not for the horse feed".
  • kalibr
    2 January 2021 11: 18
    +4
    Quote: Stalker84
    In fact, we are almost in order now. And one of the reasons why the elite in every possible way hinders the development of the "middle class" is precisely the fact that it is the class of middle owners that this elite and the power created by it can demolish.

    The next article will be about that!
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 11: 26
    +5
    Quote: kalibr
    I read. But they did not make the weather. Otherwise collectivization would not have been needed!

    As it was not required, but there were few of them, although by the 30s, powerful grain farms were created on their basis, but for the most part an individual peasant-peasant worked on the land and in order to ensure the industrialization of the country an accurate shot was made at two birds with one stone at the same time, the creation of collective farms and almost simultaneously, MTS, which made it possible to attract rural youth, formed already under Soviet rule, to the same MTS, factories, factories and construction sites.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 11: 41
    +8
    Quote: kalibr
    There are always positive / negative personal examples. But there is a law of large numbers ...

    This is how the law of large numbers showed the correctness of the creation of collective farms, and then, as the correct choice towards large farms was confirmed, the transfer of collective farms to state farms, and this is wages, and pensions and vacations, and trade unions. And the negative example of the famine in Ukraine, I will say, is to blame, while the "uncomplaining", in the words of modern Ukrainians, the communal Russian brought cattle to the collective farm, they "fiercely" fought the collective farms, destroying their cattle and grain, in other words, they were shooting at my feet, having fallen on hunger, which practically passed unnoticed in Russian villages, including my village with sandy soil, but a strong economy, well, except for the Kuban with its fertile soil, where most of the inhabitants were with the Ukrainian mentality. Which proves the law of large numbers.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 12: 06
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: apro
    aim of building a just society

    Yesterday evening I was pushing a steam locomotive-monument at the station for the purpose of entertainment. He was sweating, but did not budge.

    I was in Kazansky near the monument-steam locomotive to the first subbotnik and on Paveletsky, near Leninsky, but I did not meet you there yesterday drinksjoke
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 18: 17
      +2
      So I don't live in Moscow, but in Penza! We have a steam locomotive in front of the bus station (?).
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 2 January 2021 18: 22
        +1
        It was necessary to understand because of the photo of the exhibit of the Penza Museum. The locomotive opposite the bus station ???
        I was several times in Penza, I was at the railway station, but I was not at the bus station.
        Happy New Year)
        1. kalibr
          2 January 2021 18: 24
          0
          Happy New Year to you too! It's nice to communicate with an erudite person. Where have you been in Tuscany?
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 2 January 2021 18: 30
            +1
            I went all over Florence, I was repeatedly noticed by an alarm in Uffi, I trodden a path on Ponto Vechchieo, and I did not climb into a marble bath in Boboli, but overcame the temptation))
            1. kalibr
              3 January 2021 12: 20
              0
              Quote: Konnick
              and in Boboli I didn't get into a marble bath, but overcame the temptation))

              !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 12: 58
    +4
    Quote: Stalker84
    But those who vote for Putin and United Russia, they are that petty-bourgeois wave. Many thanks to the author for the article.

    It seems to me that you are mistaken, pensioners, drugged by TV, and a large horde of officials and civil servants, including, for example, the National Guard, which already exceeds the army, are voting.
    1. Drugov
      Drugov 2 January 2021 18: 57
      +3
      Exactly. Participated in conducting exit floors this summer under the amendments. There were no youth, no middle class, no middle age, but only the nuclear electorate of the Guarantor - pensioners
  • Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 2 January 2021 13: 08
    +6
    Happy New Year to all!
    I don't know why it is necessary to post scandalous articles on the New Year.
    “Bread for you? And you dance! "
    Stalin took offense at the petty-bourgeois peasant and carried out collectivization. wink
    Read diagonally and draw the appropriate conclusions - Shpakovsky's horse!
    P, S, M. Sholokhov. Virgin Soil Upturned. Good book!
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 2 January 2021 16: 29
      +3
      Very good. For me, the Quiet Don is a little lulling.

      And it feels like he didn't say everything.
      He held something.
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 2 January 2021 19: 48
        +2
        Quote: Korsar4
        Very good. For me, the Quiet Don is a little lulling.

        And it feels like he didn't say everything.
        He held something.

        Quiet Don is more than a work of art. And, the fate of Grigory Melekhov most likely developed tragically outside the scope of the book.
        Sholokhov is a writer, you can reread it and see something in a new way. That "Quiet Don", that They Fought for the Motherland, that Virgin Land Raised, ....
        Grandfather Shchukar is a popular philosopher, don't you think?
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 2 January 2021 20: 43
          +1
          I find it. “Quiet Don” is one of the five greatest Russian novels for me.
          I wrote the previous remark on the road. I could not resist. From the phone he opened "Virgin Lands Upturned". Don't come off.
          1. Was mammoth
            Was mammoth 2 January 2021 22: 55
            +1
            Quote: Korsar4
            Don't come off.

            You can study history from such works.
            It is a pity that the majority of young people do not read.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 3 January 2021 04: 04
              0
              I stood on the nearest shelf. But I don't even know if the older generation of children read it. I’ll ask.

              But we just had it in the school curriculum.
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 2 January 2021 20: 54
          +1
          Now I thought that certain parallels could be drawn between grandfather Shchukar and Cola Brunion.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 13: 53
    0
    Quote: apro
    Quote: Konnick
    As my grandmother said, it was painfully good to live before the war, so it happened.

    It's not the first time I've heard this ...

    I found confirmation of the words - they began to live well, in the memoirs of Zhukov and Guderian. And about the fact that it happened only when we lived to see a good life, it actually is, they set it on us to destroy our achievements.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 2 January 2021 14: 25
    +3
    Somehow, the author consciously or not consciously swung at the cognitive - informational representation of history and tried to show the process of creating new socio-economic relations and using mobilization technologies for this through sociological and historical analysis of society.
    However, the audience, for the most part perceiving the issue of Bolshevism in a narrow range of evaluative criteria, either as an extremely progressive phenomenon, or as a "dark time of totalitarianism", judging by the comments, was not prepared for such a turn, first of all, theoretically.
    Maybe it made sense to precede this cycle with a series of articles on a topic like "the dual nature of Bolshevism"?
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 2 January 2021 14: 42
      +2
      Oh, someone could not master the meaning of what was written and put a minus out of annoyance, instead of trying to overcome their ignorance.
      1. Iskazi
        Iskazi 2 January 2021 16: 58
        +2
        unfortunately ignorance has a place to be ..., they have already written about the darkness of "totalitarianism", it's simple and modernity from a historical point of view is also continuous totalitarianism and dictatorship, only the methods of suppression are different.
    2. kalibr
      2 January 2021 15: 13
      +2
      Oh, Victor Nikolaevich! Here we must start with culturology - a subject of which was not at all in the Soviet Higher School. And I have a course of lectures written just for technical students. But there are also 21 topics! Lay them all out one after another, adapting to the volumes of the VO? But the nature of online journalism is such that when we're done, people will forget where they started. Some are already in the know, and even 42 articles will not convince the biased. And the "dual nature" ... Here both Marx and Engels are needed, and the "renegade Kautsky", and Bogdanov, and Trotsky, and Orwell ... and again - for the majority it is like a dead poultice. For a very simple comment, they put a minus for you, maybe it was a little more difficult to write the usual ones. And what will happen here? There will be continuous "indescribable words", as they said before Peter the Great!
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 2 January 2021 15: 37
        +3
        Here you have to start with cultural studies
        Yeah, and before that, briefly about the history of its origin, about Kant there with Spengler, about White with Markarian and about ten major cultural schools.
        1. kalibr
          2 January 2021 18: 18
          0
          Quote: Undecim
          Yeah, and before that, briefly about the history of its origin, about Kant there with Spengler, about White with Markarian and about ten major cultural schools.

          Don't finish me off!
    3. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 2 January 2021 19: 27
      +1
      Quote: Undecim
      "about the dual nature of Bolshevism"?

      Bolshevism has no dual nature. The petty-bourgeois consciousness of individual peasants and entrepreneurs who do not exploit hired labor has a dual nature: on the one hand, they are workers, on the other hand, they are owners of the means of production.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 2 January 2021 20: 16
        -1
        And I was still amazed that the outstanding theoretician-teacher of Bolshevism Green was absent. And he is light in sight.
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 2 January 2021 22: 45
          0
          Quote: Undecim
          And I was still amazed that the outstanding theoretician-teacher of Bolshevism Green was absent. And he is light in sight.

          I waited for you to give out another nonsense ..
  • Sergey Averchenkov
    Sergey Averchenkov 2 January 2021 15: 30
    0
    Economics and consciousness are completely different things. The whole article is nonsense.
    1. Iskazi
      Iskazi 2 January 2021 18: 53
      +1
      The article is not without flaws ..., but unfortunately, consciousness still influences being ..., especially the consciousness of those in power ..., the example of the USSR is just like that and rushes in the eye, The influence of the consciousness of the inhabitants of the Kremlin is also very noticeable ... and the consciousness of the robber greatly affects the economic situation of the victim ...
      1. Sergey Averchenkov
        Sergey Averchenkov 2 January 2021 20: 53
        0
        Come on ... I read war and peace (just for example - I don't like war and peace) and at the same time think about the economy? Some kind of stupidity. Therefore, he said that it was nonsense. Who of those present here can read something vital, important and think about the economy? Idiocy.
  • ANB
    ANB 2 January 2021 15: 31
    +2
    In 1986, at my graduation in history, I got a ticket about collectivization. I knew everything on the topic, but I could not logically explain why it was needed. In the textbook, too, it was somehow vaguely written. Before my eyes, there was already an example that the yield from the dachas was much higher than the yield from the collective farm fields. I generally keep quiet about quality and storage. It was impossible to talk about the fact that it was easier to export the harvest to the state during the exam. Fortunately, the teacher understood my difficulties, put 4 and let go.
    And only much later it came about - the goal was to reduce labor costs per unit of production through mechanization. Albeit with a decrease in quality. All the same, they came to this. True, through the lower part of the body.
  • Basarev
    Basarev 2 January 2021 16: 30
    -4
    But in fact, he acted like a gangster, in fact he took away grain by robbery. It would be more correct to give all-all agricultural land to the peasants - on an equal area per capita, in absolute private ownership. That is, to bring the Stolypin reform to its logical conclusion. And to register in the laws: private property is inviolable and holy.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 18: 20
      -1
      Quote: Basarev
      That is, to bring the Stolypin reform to its logical conclusion. And to register in the laws: private property is inviolable and holy.

      "Do you want a FAQ? Don't think about your sister! Your sister fell into the pool and drowned" (Setritsa Alyonushka and brother Ivanushka)
  • Iskazi
    Iskazi 2 January 2021 16: 51
    +1
    on the one hand not bad .., Quite popular, and slightly dispels the blizzard about collectivization. The peasants themselves ran into collectivization, and the Soviet leadership did a lot in foreign policy, so they didn't take anything in payment except grain and timber ..., the peasantry really lived in communism - it was autonomous, the proletariat worked poorly ..., goods did not produce ..., there was a reduction in grain production. And the Bolsheviks resolutely tightened the screws, which was correct in those conditions ... but unfortunately there was not enough brains to unscrew them back, although Stalin planned to return ... but the war, Stalin's death, Khrushchev and the post-Khrushchev leadership .. ., killed the agriculture of the USSR
  • Konnick
    Konnick 2 January 2021 17: 20
    +3
    Quote: kalibr
    That's right!


    In Italy, I drove my rental car from Milan to Rome, and everywhere I saw cultivated fields with lonely islets of abandoned farm estates, such as in the movie "The Taming of the Shrew." Large, scientifically organized, agricultural holdings supplanted semi-slave rural labor and Celentano's bare heels. If you remember Khrushchev's visit to America, where he fell in love with the future queen of the fields, then he was visiting an agricultural enterprise with the number of employees, I don't remember exactly, but at least 2 thousand. A large enterprise allows you to organize veterinary and agricultural supervision, modern logistics from the field to the refrigerator. And farm products, which many consider environmentally friendly .. I know of one such farmer, hay for rabbits mows along the roadsides of the Moscow region with constant traffic jams. Make a choice, dear customers, towards large manufacturers, which are monitored by regulatory authorities.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2021 18: 22
      +1
      Quote: Konnick
      Being in italy

      Is the north of Italy obvious? Tuscany? What towns have you visited?
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 2 January 2021 19: 58
      +2
      Large, scientifically organized, agricultural holdings have supplanted semi-slave rural labor and Celentano's bare heels.
      You were in a hurry. They are being ousted, of course, but there is still a long way to go to complete displacement. Today in Europe, 65% of farms are less than 5 hectares, and only 3% of EU farms are 100 hectares or more, although they account for more than half of the agricultural area used.
      If in Italy, the picture is the same there.

      Almost 60 percent of farms sell products worth up to 8000 euros per year.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 2 January 2021 20: 10
        +2
        I described what I saw, a lot of abandoned houses, already without access roads, all around arable land and not even drive up.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 2 January 2021 20: 23
          +1
          And I do not mind that you described what you saw. Only with conclusions in relation to what they saw they hurried. Moreover, there are strong regional fluctuations. In Lombardy the average farm size is under 20 hectares, and in Liguria - 2 hectares.
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 2 January 2021 20: 24
            +2
            The more backward the region, the smaller the economy.
  • Drugov
    Drugov 2 January 2021 18: 39
    +3
    Quote: Polymer
    relevant now. Despite the multitude of all kinds of programs to support small and medium-sized businesses, at the slightest crisis, the petty bourgeoisie drowns first. But politically he is always on the side of big business.

    Please don't talk nonsense. I've been an entrepreneur since the early 6s. There has never been a single sensible program for an ordinary SME. The only time I managed to get a loan at 2012 percent per annum was in XNUMX and that's it. Everything that the director of Ozero and his group promises is a banal profanation, and all calls to ease the pressure on business have had exactly the opposite result from year to year. Well, big business to any small trader, like a bone in the throat, all these networkers and other giants banally let SMEs around the world.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 2 January 2021 18: 48
    +3
    "Why are there three horses on the farm?" One of the readers asked me. But for what: you plow on two, and the third (or even two) rests (or is still busy at some kind of work).
    Photo 1907 of the year.
    And in the photo they generally harnessed cattle ...
    Moreover, this is clearly not a VOL.
    Heavy artillery (the prototype of the RGK artillery) in the RI army was also pulled by horses. I wonder how much money was spent on their food and how quickly they could move the guns?
  • Iskazi
    Iskazi 2 January 2021 19: 12
    +1
    Unfortunately, the author missed a very important point .... Collectivization proceeded in parallel with decollectivization ..., at the time of the beginning of Socialist Collectivization, natural cooperation took place in the country .., probably few know about the dispossession of "kulak collective farms" - there were such, there were artels , comradeship, there was a lot of interesting things, new peasant associations could become a real basis for a political movement. 20-30-ies - years of missed opportunities ..., the Bolsheviks and others like them - went in the right direction, but not that way ..., it can be seen now ... but then everything drowned in the crash of politics, party squabbles, corruption and foreign pressure represented by the Comintern ...,
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 2 January 2021 21: 32
      -4
      Quote: Iskazi
      there were a lot of interesting things

      What there were many was corpses and mutilated human destinies. Someone is interested in it.
      1. kalibr
        2 January 2021 22: 16
        -3
        Quote: Junger
        What there were many was corpses and mutilated human destinies. Someone is interested in it.

        Yes, with this in Russia, things have always been just fine. "Don’t drive roosters from taverns, don’t have prodigal wives in taverns, buffoons with bears, do not sniff and tambourines, don’t play the grain and cards, but sit and drink the tsar’s wine! the cross and trousers will not get drunk - that will be from the sovereign in a fierce execution! "
      2. Iskazi
        Iskazi 2 January 2021 23: 12
        +1
        corpses, fates, tragedies ..., they broke a lot of firewood, but the problem is not only in them, but also in an honest analysis and a possible verdict or conclusions ..., after all, walking on a rake is not the best thing to do, life goes on, but the author concerns really important topics ... perhaps there are other ways, but the population simply does not know about them ... and the leadership is not able to follow them by virtue of their leadership ...
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 January 2021 22: 40
    +3
    Quote: Olgovich
    The fact that HALF of the settlements have disappeared from the face of the earth instead of becoming more. For it was where!
    Unlike Europe.


    Olegovich, next to me is the abandoned village of Revdel. The population is two residents, you are welcome - raise! Or weak !!!
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 2 January 2021 23: 22
      -7
      The one who destroyed should lift, that is, it is more logical for you to do this. Your comrades, the peasantry, were spreading rot - you and raise.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 06: 47
        +2
        Quote: Junger
        The one who destroyed should lift, that is, it is more logical for you to do this. Your comrades, the peasantry, were spreading rot - you and raise.

        Specifically, which of my comrades was spreading rot on the peasantry? Names, flogged, attendance !!! laughing
        Learn to read what others write, and not groan in the outhouse like an "officer's daughter"!
        Good day, Kote!
        1. Jünger
          Jünger 3 January 2021 12: 32
          -3
          Are you thrilled by a failed seminarian? Is he your comrade? So he spread rot on a cosmic scale.
          So let's go to the village!
  • Alexander F.
    Alexander F. 4 January 2021 02: 22
    -1
    Another "eccentric", the devil's toy.
    "Nothing adorns an adherent of the State Department like the desire to spoil Russia"
    The greatest value of liberalism, the denial of the values ​​of morality and ethics.
    The moral cripples, who were happy to hear it, saw this as the only and successful way to earn money on their pathology.
    The very goal of these ideologues of social life is all the same as 2000 years ago.
    Having destroyed morality and morality, turn people into a submissive and weak-willed flock of highly intelligent animals, meekly and joyfully producing material values, under the slogans of Long Live the State Department.
    True, the ways of their implementation have become more modern.
    "Eugenics - the doctrine of selection in relation to man"
    The super task, which - Through the collapse of national consciousness, create a new religion, and with its help to legitimize the caste of rulers in the world and consolidate it with the status of divinity! "Maybe this explains the mystical dollar signs"
    This concept, whether realized or not, but I think that still modern rainbow liberals guess what they are involved in. But this does not stop them, and they persistently work it out, in the hope of making money on this, the status of governors of the "golden" billion.
    After all, everything is so simple and worked out for centuries.
    First, under the banner of Christ, in the crusades, countries and peoples were plundered. Then, under the banner of democracy, countries were captured and destroyed. And the moment came when they no longer needed material values, countries or peoples, and they aimed at our souls.
    6andera the killer is the "savior".
    Bulk swindler - "savior"
    Furgal billionaire suspect in contract killings - "savior"
    Biden with his pedophile son - "savior"
    And the victims at their hands, then who is the one who does not matter?
    "The devil's greatest trick is to convince you that he doesn't exist."
    Once upon a time, a similar "scheme" was broken by Jesus Christ, "laying down" his life for this. And the very miracle of his resurrection served for a long time as a guardian of Human civilization.
    But the time has come for the next revenge, for the still anonymous "reptile". And on the way to the earthly reign of this "bastard", Russia has already remained the only obstacle. Which, as always, acted as a powerful and eternal guardian angel of human civilization.
    And Europe, in turn and once again, has resigned itself and surrendered to the temptations of lies and exchanged the comfort of the body for human souls. But Europe and the USA are not the whole earth. Although they managed to disunite Muslims and divide them into eternally warring castes. Nevertheless, the majority of Muslims will not accept the reign of the "reptile".
    So maybe the second coming of Jesus Christ to earth is that, or who, or the one who can unite the Orthodox and Muslims into a single reigning religion on earth? And this Mission will stop the mechanism of self-destruction of human civilization launched by the "reptile".
    In the meantime, this great miracle has not happened, People take care of their souls, and their children from idolaters of the temptations of lies.
  • border
    border 13 January 2021 15: 56
    0
    Quote: apro
    Yes, they did not elect the secretary of the CPSU in the USSR, but his powers were confirmed by the congress of people's deputies ...

    Look at the data on the congresses of the Soviets. In what years they took place and what issues were resolved. and do not take the USSR with its Congress of People's Deputies since 1989 as an example. And although the sowing campaign did not take place without the CPSU, the highest party leadership was elected at congresses and plenary sessions of the party, and not at congresses of Soviets. Don't be fooled.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Vladimir Maximov
    Vladimir Maximov 12 February 2021 22: 53
    0
    The class struggle is not a tea party or a picnic, it is the struggle of most of the people for survival. We survived and this is the main thing. Unfortunately, the nobles and all sorts of liberals thought badly, wanted to survive on the bones of their people - for which they paid.
  • Vladimir Maximov
    Vladimir Maximov 12 February 2021 22: 57
    0
    Good information. Thank. The people are the creator of history.
  • Valentin spagis
    Valentin spagis 14 February 2021 22: 10
    0
    In fact, Lenin simply operated with cliches, which he partly invented himself, partly took from Marx. Proletarian revolution, petty-bourgeois consciousness and so on. He sculpted these stamps right and left without caring about their meaning, which was completely absent. For example, what is "petty-bourgeois consciousness"? Consciousness is a physical property of a person. And the word "petty-bourgeois" can be understood as anything. But Lenin did not care at all about the meaning of his "teachings." The main thing for him was that everyone obeyed him. And his methods were very successful for 1917, but then led to the disaster and collapse of communism.