Military Review

Why did the White Army lose to the Red Army?

323
Why did the White Army lose to the Red Army?
Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Army, General P. Wrangel, military chieftains, members of the government of the South of Russia and military Cossack governments. Sevastopol. July 22, 1920


Who overthrew the king and destroyed the empire


After the collapse of the USSR, a myth was created that the tsarist regime and autocracy were destroyed by the "commissars", the Bolsheviks. Like, it is the communists who are to blame for the death of "old Russia". However, this is clear deception and distortion. stories.

Tsar Nicholas II was overthrown in February-March 1917, not by them, but by the predecessors of the current liberals, the bourgeois democrats. Not an ordinary people (peasants and workers) who were busy with survival, not commissars and Red Guards forced Nicholas II to abdicate, but generals and ministers, grand dukes and deputies. The upper estates and classes, educated and well-to-do people.

The Bolsheviks at this time were underground. It was a marginal, extremely small party, in fact, already defeated by the police. Its leaders and activists were either on the run abroad, or in exile and hard labor. The Bolshevik Party had practically no influence whatsoever among the people and society.

Nicholas II was opposed by the elite of the Russian Empire - the grand dukes and aristocrats, generals and church hierarchs, industrialists and bankers, politicians and public figures, commercial capital and the liberal intelligentsia.

Many revolutionaries-Februaryists went to the Freemasons at the same time. Masonic lodges were closed clubs where the interests of various elite clans were aligned.

Why did the elite oppose their monarch?

The answer is the Westernization of Russia. Autocracy remained a relic of the past times of Ivan the Terrible. The elite in Russia had capital and power, but did not have power. The Februaryists strove to complete the westernization of Russia, to make it a part of Western Europe. To turn Russia into "sweet" Holland, France or England.

Russian "Europeans" liked to live in "enlightened" Europe. They wished to establish the same order in our country: parliamentary democracy, power with the bourgeoisie, the market, freedom of speech and religion.

Nothing special. After the collapse of the USSR, many people in the post-Soviet republics wanted the same (and still do).

They did not understand that, say, for example, the Baltic States or Ukraine cannot be part of the Western metropolis, the core of the capitalist system. Only the colonial periphery of the capsystem, from where they will take the necessary resources (if any), pump out labor, sell junk goods and dump accumulated contradictions.

What will cause the robbery of people's property (privatization), de-industrialization, the destruction of all the achievements of socialism (science, culture, education, medicine, human protection, etc.), the establishment of a comprador-oligarchic regime and the rapid extinction of the people. That the overwhelming majority of ordinary people under such a system will become

“Unnecessary, economically ineffective”.

White project


Thus, the bourgeoisie and Westernizers believed that if tsarism was destroyed,

"Prison of peoples"

democratize the army, then happiness will come. It will be as good in Russia as in dear Europe.

It is worth recalling that in the XNUMXth century, Russian aristocrats, merchants and industrialists preferred to speak German, French or English. And to live - in Berlin, Vienna, Geneva, Paris or Rome.

Europe was a model and example for them

“How to live”.

Therefore, the Februaryists overthrew Nicholas II in February 1917, although only about six months remained until the victory over the German Empire. The Second Reich was already exhausted by the war, Berlin wanted to negotiate on more or less favorable terms.

Westerners wanted to establish a Western-style regime in Russia, a constitutional monarchy or a republic. Become triumphant in the war with Germany.

Westerners believed that

"The West will help."

Of course, England, France and the United States helped to overthrow the tsarist regime. But they did it not out of a desire to turn Russia into a part

"Civilized world".

They had their own interest.

Solve their problems (the crisis of capitalism) at the expense of not only Germany, Austria and Turkey, but also Russia. Not to share with the Russian the fruits of victory, but to destroy, dismember and plunder the Russian Empire.

To solve the millennial strategic task - to destroy the Russian world, the Russian people, which prevents the West from establishing its own order on the planet.

The Russian Februaryist revolutionaries were simply used. Later it was a terrible shock for them when the West did not help them.

As a result, instead of a triumphant victory, the Februaryists caused a terrible civilizational and state catastrophe in Russia.

Troubles


The overthrow of the tsar, the destruction of the empire and all its main institutions, including the army, led to the Russian Troubles. All the contradictions and problems that have been accumulating for centuries have burst out.

Liberal democratic forces, supporters of the "market" (capitalism) found themselves at a broken trough. Even the power could not be kept.

The street was constantly radicalized. More radical revolutionaries - Socialist-Revolutionaries, anarchists, nationalists and Bolsheviks - broke into the leaders. The Bolsheviks in October literally raised power in the capital and in most of the country.

However, their opponents were not going to give up. Gene burst out of the bottle.

The village gave birth to its own project - the people's freemen (People against power). The peasants generally renounced any power. The confrontation between town and village began. They managed to pacify the village with a lot of blood.

National separatists and Basmachis (predecessors of the jihadists) had their own programs. Thus, the Poles demanded the restoration of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth "from sea to sea" (from the Baltic to the Black Sea). The Finns laid claim to Karelia, the Kola Peninsula, part of Ingermanlandia (Petersburg province), Arkhangelsk and Vologda provinces. Ukrainian nationalists (Petliurists) claimed lands that had never been part of "Ukraine" - Crimea, Donbass, lands of Novorossiya, etc. The Cossack regions also supported the secession.

Interestingly, the countryside and the nationalists were even more of a threat to the Bolsheviks than the White Guards. In particular, the nationalists and the interventionists helping them during the Troubles fielded up to 2-3 million fighters. And in all together the white armies at the same time never had more than 300 thousand people.

Therefore, the Red Army utterly defeated the Whites.

But she was able to defeat the national separatists only partially. The Bolsheviks defeated the Caucasian, Turkestan, Ukrainian, Cossack nationalists. But they lost to the Finnish, Polish and Baltic.

In the civil war, the White Army became an instrument of large capital, both Russian and foreign. The White Guards did not fight "For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland." Monarchists in the White Army were negligible. The White Guard counterintelligence at Denikin and Wrangel crushed the officer monarchist organizations.

Accordingly, the "White Idea" - liberal-democratic, pro-Western, was supported by extremely limited segments of the population. Less than 10% of the people. Liberal intelligentsia, bourgeoisie (owners of factories, newspapers and ships). Officers (part), White Cossacks acted as "cannon fodder", mercenaries of capital.


Entente. Artist V.N.Deni (Denisov). 1919 g.

Red Project Victory


The Western European version of the development of Russia proposed by the Westerners (whites) was unacceptable for the Russians. Russia-Russia is not Europe, it is a separate, special civilization.

The image of an attractive, peaceful and prosperous future (bourgeois in Holland or Germany) was acceptable only for the “European” part of Russian society.

The matrix of Russian civilization (code, genotype) has entered an ever-growing contradiction with the political projects of the Russian elite. That is, Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok (or at least the Urals) turned out to be a utopia. This contradiction led to the defeat of the White movement.

The "deep" Russian people did not accept the White Draft.

The Russian people supported the Red Project. The Russian communists proposed a project that largely corresponded to the ideals of the Russian community. Priority of truth and social justice.

The Bolshevik project absorbed the values-codes, basic for the Russian civilization. Such as: the primacy of truth over the law, the spiritual principle - over the material, the general - over the particular.

The Bolsheviks proposed a world without the parasitism of a few "chosen ones" over the masses. The world of communism rejected the spirit of plunder, looting, appropriation and exploitation (capitalism). Communism stood on the priority of honest labor, conciliarism and unity of the working class. He offered an image of the future - a world of happiness, a community living according to conscience (that is, it was close to Christian socialism). Brotherhood and co-prosperity of peoples.

The Bolsheviks had an image of the future world attractive to the people.

And also an iron will and energy to bend the world under him. The Russian communists turned out to be the only force in Russia that, after the death of the Russian Empire (“old Russia”), tried to create a new reality, a new Russian world.

If it were not for the Bolsheviks, then Russia and the Russians would simply have left the historical arena (as planned in the West).
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/, https://stalingrad-battle.ru/
323 comments
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  1. Lexus
    Lexus 24 December 2020 04: 41
    +27
    There were no PEOPLE behind the bakers. And the current ones will survive sooner or later.
    1. Crowe
      Crowe 24 December 2020 05: 04
      +40
      And why did the people go for the whites, what could they offer? Returning back to the bar with the gentlemen, back to the king, who needs it? Absolutely not. In general, the whites tried to return so that it was not known what. Nobody wanted the old. programs. Clear and understandable - exactly what many wanted. An end to the war, land to the peasants, factories to workers, power to the Soviets. I think the main reason why the Reds won is because the Reds had an idea that they were able to bring to the bulk of the people - to the peasants and proletarians, the working class. This is the idea of ​​social equality of all, the idea that after the revolution there will be no rich or poor, that the exploitation of one person by another will disappear, etc. These are the ideas that ordinary people followed. for the red.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 24 December 2020 07: 50
        -45%
        Quote: Crowe
        And why did the people go for the whites, what could they offer? Returning back to the bar with the gentlemen, back to the king, who needs it?

        If only they took a little trouble to familiarize themselves with the program objectives Russian state , i.e. white.

        And their ONLY goal was the RETURN OF POWER TO THE PEOPLE. The power that the people chose for themselves in the freest elections in the world to the US, and chose by no means the Bolsheviks.

        This power, stolen brazenly, treacherously and criminally by the Bolsheviks, was what the whites wanted to return to the PEOPLE by convening a new nationwide Constituent Assembly and agreed to make ANY of its decisions - about the system, land, power, country structure, etc. More and more NO goals.

        What "bar, what kind of kings", what kind of childish babble of mossy propaganda? belay

        Quote: Crowe
        An end to the war, land for the peasants, factories for the workers, power to the Soviets.

        Not fulfilled NOTHING: the civil massacre unleashed by the seizure of power by the Bolsheviks continued for four more years, with the number of victims SIX times higher than those of WWI.

        Such is the struggle "for peace"!

        The peasants' land was not only taken away for collective farms, but also the implements of labor on it and livestock, and attached to the ground, overlapping rent : unthinkable taxes on chickens, trees, etc., corvee-almost free hard labor on collective farms.

        Workers' control was also immediately abolished.

        Power was at the top of the party, the so-called. the Soviets did not decide anything, silently stamping out its decisions, and their "elections" were turned into a shameful farce. Power I was afraid of elections like fire and nightmares, and did not trust the people at all
        Quote: Crowe
        I think the main reason why the Reds won

        The Reds completely lost: the result of their rule: the borders of the 17th century and the extinction of the Russian people, the uncompetitive remaining economy, coupons for cowards and a total deficit for everything and disbelief in nothing: no one stood up for them in 1991.

        And over Russia the Russian national banner of the Russian State flies.

        PS article-minus: nothing new, again matrices, deep peoples, communities, etc.
        1. nikvic46
          nikvic46 24 December 2020 08: 02
          +27
          Andrei: Do you seriously think that the Bolsheviks stole power? They picked her up; no one wanted to take on the responsibility of gaining power.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 24 December 2020 08: 08
            -37%
            Quote: nikvic46
            Andrei: Do you seriously think that the Bolsheviks stole power? They picked her up; no one wanted to take on the responsibility of gaining power.

            NO ONE to "raise" them - did not authorize

            NOBODY EVER chose them or commissioned them anywhere.

            And Russia fought them for four whole years of the Civil War and then, and in the 20s and 30s
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 08: 11
              +30
              Quote: Olgovich
              And Russia fought them for four whole years of the Civil War and then, and in the 20s and 30s

              Such as Olgych is not Russia, such as Olgych is Shkuro, Vlasov and other Yushchenko.
              1. Walking
                Walking 24 December 2020 10: 48
                +16
                You can't prove Olgovich, stubborn.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 10: 57
                  +2
                  But you can "lead to silence." )))
              2. RUSS
                RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 01
                0
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                such as Olgych is Shkuro, Vlasov and other Yushchenko.

                All in a bunch))))) What do Yushchenko and Vlasov have in common?
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 03: 22
                  +3
                  Russophobia in the broadest sense of the word. At least to burn everything with napalm if only against the "Jewish Bolsheviks".
            2. nikvic46
              nikvic46 24 December 2020 08: 36
              +20
              Andrei. There are politicians, and there are politicians. The politicians are well aware of what they got from the Soviet Union. They take advantage of this. And they even sell what they inherited. And each of them considers himself a "white bone". And if so, then everything interferes with this class: rogue, smoke from cigarettes, state. enterprises. Soon the person himself will interfere. The aristocrats ruined the Russian Empire, they are ready to ruin everything, lazy dreamers.
            3. Doccor18
              Doccor18 24 December 2020 10: 40
              +24
              And Russia fought them for four whole years.

              The example of Kolchak and his pack is indicative .. Their ground is burning under their feet, they are losing one battle after another, the real Red Army is already acting against them, they leave one city after another, but ... the "Kolchakites" continue to hang, plunder and shoot , hang, rob and shoot ... Even the Siberian peasantry (more prosperous and free than in the European part of Russia), which at first did not accept Soviet power, after a short time of the "Kolchak order", almost completely went over to the side of the Reds.
              So could White have won? Another question arises. How could they hold out for so long, fighting against their own people?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 24 December 2020 11: 11
                -25%
                Quote: Doccor18
                So could White have won? Another question arises. How could they hold out for so long, fighting against their own people?

                WHO and WHAT gave the right to you and the Reds to speak on behalf of the people?
                Nobody and nothing; all elections they lost.

                The bandit in the alley is also stronger - is he therefore right?
                Quote: Doccor18
                An illustrative example of Kolchak

                Of course: these are the opinions of the RED PARTIZANS in 1925, who fought against Kolchak:
                : Akbulak district. “There is no bread, we are starving, and we are forced to build unrealizable socialism. Rather, the war, we, the red partisans, having received rifles, would see with whom to fight and who to protect. "

                Ayrtavsky district. “This is what the Soviet regime brought us to. We, collective farmers, eat quinoa and eat all sorts of surrogates. At the present time, everyone is against the Soviet government. The war will begin, all the red partisans, as one, will go against the deceiving Bolsheviks, because we all learned what the power of the Soviets is - in robbery and violence ".

                Zyryanovsky district. “It is enough that once won on your neck; now we sit naked and hungry. TSo long as the war starts, the Bolsheviks will no longer have to go out on our necks. "

                ZSK
                The question is, why did we conquer sovereign power ?! I have to go partisan again - earlier against Kolchak, and now we have to go against the communists"(Myachnikov Miney, former partisan).

                Verkhneudinsky region. “They tell us that we should go to fight, nowadays there are no fools to defend the sovereign power. The war would rather start, and then we will see who we will be with ”(Markov Innokenty, former Cossack, former partisan). "Would rather be a war, nwould have gone partisan, just not the way we partisan, but in the other directionу
                etc.
                Istmat, Archive: F. 2. Op. 10.D. 514.L. 111-114.


                And Kolchak warned them and talked about WHAT would happen ...
                1. Doccor18
                  Doccor18 24 December 2020 15: 36
                  +15
                  The total demographic losses of the population of Russia (including killed military and civilians, who died from epidemics, hunger, terror, etc.), according to G.F.Krivosheev's estimate, were 8 million people. Other researchers suggest higher figures: A. Ya. Boyarsky - 12 million; V. A. Isupov - 10,8 million; V.V. Erlikhman - 10,5 million; S. Maksudov - 10,3 million. These figures, in addition to those killed for various reasons, also include emigrants who left Russia because of the revolution and war. True, everything is not easy here too - some of the emigrants (more than 200 thousand) returned to the USSR in the 1920s and 30s, and the total number of them was also never known. S. Maksudov estimated their number at a fantastic 3,5 million, V.V. Erlikhman - at 2 million. The latest estimates of historians (for example, V. Khrisanfov), who critically studied the number of emigration of the first "wave", are more restrained - emigrants could hardly be over 1 million

                  Another source
                  The newspaper of the Right Social Revolutionaries "Volia Rossii", which had a good information network, provided such data. As of November 1, 1920, there were about 2 million emigrants in Europe from the territory of the former Russian Empire. In Poland - one million, in Germany - 560 thousand, in France - 175 thousand, in Austria and Constantinople - 50 thousand each, in Italy and Serbia - 20 thousand each. In November, another 150 thousand people pulled up from the Crimea. Subsequently, emigrants from Poland and other Eastern European countries were drawn to France, and many to both America.

                  The data vary greatly, but we will take the maximum: 20 million deaths, about 130 million in Soviet Russia, 2 million in emigration.
                  How many "whites" died in the war: no more than 2 million. Total: 2 million died, 2 million in exile, also did not take into account those who fought on the side of the "red", and there were a lot of them. So how many were "whites" - from 4 to 7% of the country's population.
                  WHO and WHAT gave the right to you and the Reds to speak on behalf of the people?

                  With over 90% of the country's population on their side, the "Reds" could well "speak on behalf of the people," since they were the people ...
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 24 December 2020 21: 54
                    -5
                    Quote: Doccor18
                    So how many were "whites" - from 4 to 7% of the country's population.

                    With over 90% of the country's population on their side, the "Reds" could well "speak on behalf of the people," since they were the people ....

                    The GV was attended by about FIVE percent population of the country on both sides (the rest just SURVIVED) .. EVERYTHING!

                    Participated in the national elections Fifty percent.

                    Catch the difference?

                    And in the elections of the US, the people of the Bolsheviks gave a ride - this is a FACT.

                    And the Bolsheviks, to animal horror, all their lives mortally FEARED free elections of the people (they knew that they would be thrown out!), Banning any other opinion, parties, newspapers, books, meetings, facts, and turning the "elections" into a shameful farce with ... one candidate ...

                    They did not win ANY elections and, accordingly, do not have the slightest right to speak on behalf of the people, this is just a fact.
                2. bk0010
                  bk0010 24 December 2020 20: 48
                  +5
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  WHO and WHAT gave the right to you and the Reds to speak on behalf of the people?
                  They took it themselves.
                  Nobody and nothing; they lost all elections.
                  And they won the war.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The bandit in the alley is also stronger - is he therefore right?
                  And if the victim cuts the bandit - is she right?
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  And Kolchak warned them and talked about WHAT would happen ...
                  So he was warned.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 24 December 2020 22: 04
                    -7
                    Quote: bk0010
                    They took it themselves.

                    And got 10 million corpses, cannibalism and the collapse of the economy, are you satisfied?
                    Quote: bk0010
                    And they won the war.


                    Remember this in the alleyway, where the bandit will defeat you - he is right (according to your logic)
                    Quote: bk0010
                    So he was warned.

                    His warnings came true - see. opinions red partisanswho bitterly regretted that they fought the wrong
                    Quote: bk0010
                    Real power and real rights are taken, not received.

                    We got 10 million corpses, cannibalism and the collapse of the economy, and THIRTEEN years wasted, wasted only on restoration to the thief level.

                    "Achievements", yes ...
                    1. gsev
                      gsev 19 February 2021 18: 01
                      0
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      We got 10 million corpses, cannibalism and the collapse of the economy, and THIRTEEN years wasted, wasted only on restoration to the thief level.

                      "Achievements", yes.

                      Why do you identify Kolchak with the Constituent Assembly. Kolchak and his henchmen dreamed of hanging the former Constituents more passionately than the Bolsheviks. Read the memoirs of the leader of the Right Socialist-Revolutionaries Chernov. For 30 years, the USSR was able to surpass Japan, Germany and France in production. A new lag began in the 1970s, but even now Russia still lives on with its Soviet legacy.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 20 February 2021 08: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: gsev
                        For 30 years, the USSR was able to surpass Japan, Germany and France in production

                        )))
                        That is, compared to the Republic of Ingushetia, it was ahead of Germany, for which the XNUMXth century was not particularly successful. France and of course Japan was ahead of RI.

                        By the way, PPP witnesses claim that the current RF is ahead of France and Britain, almost on a par with Germany.
                      2. gsev
                        gsev 20 February 2021 08: 59
                        +1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        that the current Russian Federation is ahead of France and Britain, almost on a par with Germany.

                        For the last 10 years I have not met Russian frequency converters. The exclusion of the production of Tula, but it is 10 times more expensive than the Chinese ones. If in 1994 4-5 firms producing programmable controllers were rumored, now either their products are too expensive, or in the PRC you can find a complete analogue 2 times cheaper. CNC from China in 2015 prices for 4 coordinates 50 rubles, servo drive 000W 750 rubles. And modern engineers from the Kovrov plant are openly looking for companies at exhibitions that allow them to put a sign made in Russia on their products in order to report to Putin on the successful import substitution. Do you consider this ahead of France and Britain?
                    2. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 20 February 2021 08: 42
                      +1
                      OOPS did not notice right away.
                      Quote: gsev
                      For 30 years, the USSR was able to

                      30 years is 1922 - 1952? Is Germany the Second Reich / FRG? Awesome achievement, of course.
                    3. gsev
                      gsev 20 February 2021 09: 12
                      0
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Awesome achievement, of course.

                      Especially when you consider that Lenin personally endorsed some orders for the purchase of shovels and axes for gold abroad.
                    4. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 20 February 2021 10: 14
                      0
                      Quote: gsev
                      Lenin personally endorsed some orders for the purchase of shovels and axes for gold abroad.

                      Very interesting. And bloody tsarism, while Lenin was away, bought axes abroad for gold? I heard about machine guns, but I never heard of axes.
                    5. gsev
                      gsev 20 February 2021 14: 16
                      -1
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      while Lenin was away, did he buy axes abroad for gold?

                      In tsarist Russia, they did not know how to make rolling bearings, machine tools and aircraft motors. With the expulsion of the communists from power, these skills are rapidly disappearing. And now Russia buys some axes and hacksaws abroad again.
        2. tank64rus
          tank64rus 25 December 2020 16: 52
          +1
          When the former deputies of the State Duma came to Kolchak and complained about the cruelty with which his troops treat the local population and the captured Red Army soldiers, they, for example, were stripped in 40 degrees of frost and driven into teplushki, then slowly driven to the next station. where the frozen corpses were unloaded. With regard to the treatment of the local population, Czechs recollect that women were raped from 12 to 60 years old. Having heard about all this from the deputies, Kolchak said that you want this war, like the war of the Scarlet and White Rose, either we or they. By the way, some of them were later shot by the same Kolchak people. This is a Civil War and God forbid us that it would happen again. In my family, half for the Reds, half for the whites, two brothers against two brothers. Great-grandfather cursed both of them.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 25 December 2020 21: 19
            -6
            Quote: tank64rus
            When the former deputies of the State Duma came to Kolchak and complained about the cruelty with which his troops treat the local population and the captured Red Army soldiers, they, for example, were stripped in 40 degrees of frost and driven into teplushki, then slowly driven to the next station. where the frozen corpses were unloaded.

            All these fables, as well as Czech inventions, with which they tried to justify the treachery, are not worth a penny.

            And the FACT is that whites DO NOT have ANY order for systemic terror, unlike the Reds, who unleashed their own terror concordally and systemically... And they continued it for more than 30 years
            Quote: tank64rus
            By the way, some of them were later shot by the same Kolchak people.

            This had nothing to do with Kolchak, and the killers were tried.
            Quote: tank64rus
            This is a Civil War and God forbid us that it would happen again.

            she went all 74 years.
            Quote: tank64rus
            In my family, half for the Reds, half for the whites, two brothers against two brothers. Great-grandfather cursed both of them.

            Great-grandfather was half wrong: "The winners outright lost and destroyed the country by 1991. It's just a fact.
        3. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 26 December 2020 07: 56
          -1
          Quote: Olgovich
          RED PARTISAN in 1925, who fought against Kolchak:

          Nevertheless
          “We have to go partisan again - earlier against Kolchak, but now we have to go against the communists” - that is, against the communists AS WELL AS against Kolchak.
          - "nowadays there are no fools to defend the sovereign power";
          - "I would have known that it would be so, I would never have defended the power of the Soviets"
          But not a word about the fact that they would fight for the whites.
          One exception, and then in the form of agitation:
          "Our task is to settle accounts initially with the local activists, and then we will move on, soon the Japanese troops and the troops of Ataman Semyonov will arrive in time." But taking into account what memory Semyonov and the Japanese left of themselves, it is not difficult to imagine the reaction of the locals to such "agitation". Not to mention how they would have behaved if the whites and the interventionists came again. Exactly - the scene at Sholokhov's.
          In general, dissatisfaction boils down either to excesses (which, as a rule, were arranged by the former partisans themselves) or to the following:
          - “The decision of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee on privileges for partisans is being ignored all the time.
          - “District organizations do not pay enough attention to former partisans
          The decree on privileges for former partisans among the latter has not been popularized, and the partisans living in the region do not enjoy any privileges (a similar situation is observed in Troitsky, Pospelikhinsky, Altai, Toguchinsky, Karatuzsky, Abakansky and other districts).
          “The partisans have absolutely no privileges in supplying goods and products.”
          - “Former red [nasny] partisans who are in the area are not supplied with manufactured goods and foodstuffs enough and there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE REST OF THE POPULATION” (-SM).
          And in the end:
          “The Soviet government and the party have forgotten about the former partisans, they do not explain to them the tasks and structure of agriculture and do not involve them in the struggle for socialist construction, as a result, the former partisans lag behind the party's policy in the countryside and easily fall under the influence of the kulak and a / s element, but if we explain to the partisans the policy of the party in relation to the restructuring of agriculture and about the tasks of the partisans today, each of us will be the same conductor of the measures of the Soviet power, as we once stood firm for the conquests of the Soviets. "
          Grodekovsky district. "If the partisan is sent on the right path and help him to sort out all the issues, then the partisan will not turn away from the Soviet regime, but will help it in every possible way, conducting every possible campaign in the countryside." And they did!
          Simply put, once again: there was a surplus appropriation system - the peasants rebelled against it (but not against Soviet power), there was no surplus appropriation system - there were no uprisings either.
          Collectivization began with problems - there was dissatisfaction right up to the uprisings, the situation on the collective farms improved - a one-man life "God forbid!" Well, if instead of the Soviet one, some other power was established in 1918-21 or 1941-44. - there is already a conclusion and actions are unambiguous.
      2. New Year day
        New Year day 25 December 2020 01: 52
        +1
        Quote: Doccor18
        Even the Siberian peasantry (more prosperous and free than in the European part of Russia), which at first did not accept Soviet power, after a short time of the "Kolchak order", almost completely went over to the side of the Reds.
        So could White have won?

        Do you want to say that the Red Army did nothing of the kind?
        Red terror included the entire repressive policy of the Soviet government, starting with the lynching of October 1917, and is defined as a logical continuation of the October Revolution; the red terror began earlier than the white terror and was inevitable, since the Bolshevik violence, justified by Marxism as the dictatorship of the proletariat, was directed not against the active resistance, but against the outlawed layers of society: nobles, landowners, officers, priests, kulaks, Cossacks, scientists, industrialists and the like.
        Lenin proposed a method of conducting terror, declaring morality to be a deception, stressing that everything that is useful to the revolution is moral.
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 25 December 2020 08: 38
          +2
          Do you want to say that the Red Army did nothing of the kind?

          Why didn't you? I did. There was a civil war ... A class war. Some fought to become something more than just slaves, while others to prolong their graceful existence by exploiting these slaves ...
    2. bk0010
      bk0010 24 December 2020 20: 45
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      NO ONE to "raise" them - did not authorize
      Real power and real rights are taken, not received.
    3. New Year day
      New Year day 25 December 2020 01: 47
      +1
      Quote: Olgovich
      NO ONE to "raise" them - did not authorize

      So if it's lying on the street, why not pick it up! Do you need authority for this? She, the power, is lying around, no one needs.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 25 December 2020 07: 50
        -4
        Quote: Silvestr
        So if it's lying on the street, why not pick it up! Do you need authority for this? She, the power, is lying around no one wants.

        Again this mantra. What nonsense?

        The authorities wanted EVERYTHING and everyone fought for it.

        But they sought it by ELECTIONS, and not by violence, lies, betrayal and murder ..

        Let me remind you that before the thief passed nationwide elections to local authorities (Duma) and the Bolsheviks suffered a crushing defeat
    4. Foxmara
      Foxmara 1 January 2021 10: 09
      -1
      Well, what are you, my friend, are you silent? Let's write down the forties then. The Fuhrer probably also dreamed of returning power to the people and restoring the mustache.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 1 January 2021 14: 37
        -1
        Quote: Foxmara
        Well, what are you, my friend, are you silent? Let's write down the forties then. Fuhrer surely also dreamed of returning power to the people and restoring the mustache.

        fool
        You got it from ignorance: read the plan Ost and find out, finally, WHAT the Fuhrer wanted to do with the people.
  2. RUSS
    RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 00
    -7
    Quote: nikvic46
    Do you seriously think that the Bolsheviks stole power?

    Not stolen, but basely squeezed out with the help of the October coup.
  3. Navel
    Navel 25 December 2020 15: 23
    0
    The message of the article, indicated in the title, greatly narrows the scope of the discourse, does not correspond to the modern perception of those realities.

    How many parties to the civil conflict were there (on the part of the Reds, on the part of the former and other brown-blazes)?
    When did the civil war end (20s, 30s ... is still going on)?
    Against whom was the civil war fought (the peasantry, ideological opponents, foreign and domestic interventionists ...)? ...

    You can throw a lot here. The main thing is not to oversimplify complex topics.
    1. Foxmara
      Foxmara 1 January 2021 10: 12
      0
      Well, you give .. a civil war is not waged against anyone. She's a civilian ... but the fact that in our case it was also combined with the intervention only adds to the number of parties. How can you count against whom?
  • icant007
    icant007 24 December 2020 09: 38
    +8
    Quote: Olgovich
    If only they took a little trouble to familiarize themselves with the programmatic goals of the Russian state, i.e. white.


    I am afraid that they were not known to the common man. At the same time, the slogans "Land for the peasants, factories for the workers" were heard and perfectly understood.
    White lost, including due to weak propaganda.
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 18: 40
      +2
      Quote: icant007
      Quote: Olgovich
      If only they took a little trouble to familiarize themselves with the programmatic goals of the Russian state, i.e. white.


      I am afraid that they were not known to the common man. At the same time, the slogans "Land for the peasants, factories for the workers" were heard and perfectly understood.
      White lost, including due to weak propaganda.

      Slogans-slogans, propaganda-propaganda, but this was a war, not an election. Moreover, the war was quite long and went on with varying success. Therefore, each side and party had to be judged by real deeds, and not by slogans and programs. The result is known.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 24 December 2020 18: 54
        +1
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        Slogans-slogans, propaganda-propaganda, but this was a war, not an election.

        And in the Civil War, propaganda is the main weapon.
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 25 December 2020 03: 20
          -1
          Quote: Dart2027
          in the Civil War propaganda is the main weapon.

          No. You have to do things in war. And to do it seriously, thinking them over well and with full dedication. Propaganda there is only help, albeit a serious one. And its main weapon is only in the elections.
          1. icant007
            icant007 25 December 2020 10: 29
            -1
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            No. You have to do things in war. And to do it seriously, thinking them over well and with full dedication. Propaganda there is only help, albeit a serious one. And its main weapon is only in the elections.


            A good Bolshevik agitator could well "propagandize" some White Guard unit. It is no coincidence that the term "propagandize" has become so widely used.
            This is also a war, only informational or psychological, whatever you call it.
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 25 December 2020 14: 34
              +1
              Yes. But if the Bolsheviks hadn't created a regular army, hadn't adjusted its supply and hadn't shown themselves as statesmen at all, their propaganda wouldn't have helped them.
          2. Dart2027
            Dart2027 25 December 2020 19: 19
            0
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            Propaganda there is only help, albeit a serious one.

            Most will follow those who promise more.
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 26 December 2020 05: 05
              0
              In a regular election, maybe. But in war they will go after those who seem more reliable in real affairs. Who not only speaks but does. The Socialist-Revolutionaries were also masters in propaganda and there were more of them than the Bolsheviks, but they completely failed the white matter. And they didn't show themselves in the red.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 26 December 2020 06: 24
                0
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                The Social Revolutionaries were also masters in propaganda and there were more of them.
                They were inferior to the Bolsheviks.
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                but they completely failed the white matter
                Were they all white? Some of them supported, and some supported the Bolsheviks.
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 26 December 2020 06: 46
                  0
                  [quote = Dart2027] They were inferior to the Bolsheviks. [/ quote]
                  Yes. The only question is what and how. [Quote = Dart2027] [quote = Dart2027] Some of them supported, and some supported the Bolsheviks [/ quote]
                  However, I wrote about this.
  • Deniska999
    Deniska999 24 December 2020 10: 49
    +2
    For some reason, the loss of territories worries you most. In the current situation, this is not something to cry about.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 December 2020 11: 26
      -7
      Quote: Deniska999
      For some reason, the loss of territories worries you most. In the current situation, this is not something to cry about.

      You have not read the main thing, in my opinion, but it is mentioned above:
      : the extinction of the Russian people

      This is a problem from the problems and its solution is not visible ...
      1. Deniska999
        Deniska999 24 December 2020 12: 27
        +2
        On the whole, you write the same thing every time, and your eyes caught on.
    2. New Year day
      New Year day 25 December 2020 01: 55
      +1
      Quote: Deniska999
      In the current situation, this is not something to cry about.

      So why then now "Yaroslavna's cry" about Ukraine and Belarus, for example?
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 December 2020 22: 17
      +4
      Quote: Seeker
      I will find out where you live, I will go and kill.


      What a sincere, unclouded, immaculate immediacy! good

      You are touching me. yes lol
  • Svarog
    Svarog 24 December 2020 20: 15
    +5
    Quote: Olgovich
    And over Russia the Russian national banner of the Russian State flies.

    PS article-minus: nothing new, again matrices, deep peoples, communities, etc.

    Vlasov flag .. and the article is a plus for sure!
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 December 2020 22: 12
      0
      Quote: Svarog
      Vlasov flag ..

      Vlasovsky is Andreevsky, they discussed this a thousand times at VO, and now ... again!

      And yes, then be consistent and call the Vlasov Orders of Lenin and KZ-their VLASOV personally wore.
      1. not main
        not main 25 December 2020 00: 26
        0
        Quote: Olgovich
        Olgovich (Andrey) Today, 22:12 But

        Great answer! Subscribe!
  • Victor Vorobyev
    Victor Vorobyev 13 January 2021 12: 41
    0
    Andrey, I completely agree with you! Even nothing to add. For more than 70 years of their criminal power, the Bolsheviks impudently deceived the people, and only for this reason, in 1991, NOBODY came out of their Central Committee to defend these bandyugans, although there were 18 million.
  • ivan2022
    ivan2022 14 March 2021 10: 46
    -1
    Quote: Olgovich
    And over Russia the Russian national banner of the Russian State flies.

    IT'S STUNNING SO COOL IF "FLOWS"!
    BUT ONLY IT IS VERY STRANGE, IF THE AUTHOR KNOWS THE "SECRET" WANTS "=" THE BOLSHEVIKS WANTED ".
    Heh. heh .... and this is the main argument of Mr. "Olgovich"!
    But to compare the legislation of the RSFSR with the vague slogans of the "whites"? H-no, Mr. Olgovich is not stupid to contradict himself ...
    The fact that the "whites" formed their armies in 1918 in the territories temporarily occupied by the Germans or the Japanese is generally "behind the scenes" .... it is "not comme il faut" .... And in fact, this is the reason for the defeat of the "whites"; you cannot win a long war without having your own production and raw material base, but only relying on the "help of the allies" in the Entente! But "all the garbage" for "Olovich" - the main thing is that "the flag flies"!
  • RUSS
    RUSS 24 December 2020 19: 58
    -1
    Quote: Crowe
    Returning back to the bar with gentlemen, back to the king

    White monarchists were in a minority.
  • New Year day
    New Year day 25 December 2020 01: 45
    +4
    Quote: Crowe
    The main reason why the Reds won is that the Reds had an idea that they were able to bring to the main mass of the people - the peasants and proletarians, the working class. This is the idea of ​​social equality for all, the idea that after the revolution there will be no rich people. the poor, that the exploitation of one person by another will disappear, etc.

    How relevant this message is today! And the authorities do exactly the opposite.
  • dgonni
    dgonni 25 December 2020 21: 18
    -3
    Exactly! Trotsky and Lenin divorced the people like a shuller in the market. And then workdays on the farm and a postscript to the plant. Not respecting the felling. But then later.
  • zloybond
    zloybond 15 March 2021 00: 04
    0
    In general, SI Mamontov's book "Hiking and Horses" changed my idea of ​​the war. War through the eyes of a young officer from a trench, not a staff carriage. A lot of interesting things without propaganda. Honestly about the betrayal of the Cossacks, deceived by the Bolsheviks, and then crying about fate. About offensives and retreats, about battles and the behavior of the population. True, the author immediately warns that he wrote a lot from memory and sometimes dates and points of view about the results of victories in some battles are dancing. But nevertheless, without the moral breakdown of the faint of heart, the soldier's style is calm. Honestly about stupid and indecisive commanders. About cowardice, weakness, courage. everything is like in a war without a rostrum and rallies.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 05: 06
    -10%
    Quote: lexus
    And the current ones end up sooner or later

    But, in fairness: the masses, at least the urban ones, now live quite decently, even by Soviet standards. Although for how long?
    1. Far B
      Far B 24 December 2020 05: 08
      +11
      the masses, at least the urban ones, now live pretty well, even by Soviet standards
      Oh, is it? The number of loans for this mass is off scale. Life on debt - is it decent?
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 05: 23
        +1
        Quote: Dalny V
        Oh, is it? The number of loans for this mass is off scale. Life on debt - is it decent?
        By myself, I judge that they took the mortgage not out of need, but at the request of the wife, closed a noticeable part of the capital and solved this issue within 5 years. There are no loans at all, while the salary is lower than the average for the region. True, average, not median, but nevertheless.
        1. Far B
          Far B 24 December 2020 05: 35
          +3
          closed a noticeable part of the capital
          How much do you have apartments in the region, if not a secret, if you managed to close down the "noticeable part"?
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 05: 40
            +3
            For 1 kopeck piece ten years ago at 600. percent per annum.
            1. Far B
              Far B 24 December 2020 05: 56
              +5
              This means that you had the opportunity to "solve this issue" somehow else, and not only for the mother capital and
              the salary is lower than the average for the region. True, average, not median, but nevertheless
              ... Otherwise, at five years old you will not fit in, with 17% and only your salary (excluding your wife's income).
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 06: 01
                +2
                Quote: Dalny V
                So, you had the opportunity to "solve this issue" somehow else

                In general, yes, without a down payment then, in principle, they did not give a mortgage, I do not know how now.
              2. Stirbjorn
                Stirbjorn 24 December 2020 08: 29
                +2
                Quote: Dalny V
                ... Otherwise, at five years old you will not fit in, with 17% and only your salary (excluding your wife's income).

                Obvious nonsense, a person is not even able to compare his figures! 17% per annum is a wild robbery. And 10 years ago, in 2010, there were no such percentages. This is after 2014 already, so obviously a fictional story
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 09: 06
                  -1
                  Quote: Stirbjorn
                  Obvious nonsense, a person cannot even compare his figures! 17% per annum is a wild robbery
                  No, not bullshit, a mistake, I agree. Perhaps 12 percent, that now I’ll go to rummage through the documents, or what?
                  Quote: Stirbjorn
                  your salary (excluding your wife's income).
                  Can you read this? Why shouldn't the wife's salary be taken into account? Her desires, her apartment. Although that I crucify.
      2. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 06: 03
        -5
        Quote: Dalny V
        Oh, is it? The number of loans for this mass is off scale. Life on debt - is it decent?
        By the way, what do you mean by living on debt? Debt for a car or even for a washing machine is one thing, but for millet and bread in a factory store is quite another.
        1. Far B
          Far B 24 December 2020 06: 09
          +3
          By life in debt, I mean life in debt.
          Debt for a car or even for a washing machine is one thing, but for millet and bread in a factory store is quite another
          I do not agree that this is "completely different." Different levels of the same thing.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 06: 14
            -2
            Quote: Dalny V
            I do not agree that this is "completely different." Different levels of the same thing.

            Sorry, but in Soviet times, people also took loans, so the difference between LIVING in debt, when otherwise there is nothing to EAT, and borrowing a car, for example, to roll your ass in a "traffic jam", is a very, very big, fundamental difference ...
            1. Aerodrome
              Aerodrome 24 December 2020 06: 23
              +14
              Why did the White Army lose to the Red Army?
              the answer is simple: strong motivation.
              1. novel66
                novel66 24 December 2020 08: 22
                +5
                lack of a clear program and inconsistency of actions
              2. RUSS
                RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 04
                0
                Quote: Aerodrome
                the answer is simple: strong motivation

                Well, yes, you can't spoil with Trotsky
            2. Far B
              Far B 24 December 2020 06: 26
              +7
              And I'm not saying that they are exactly the same thing. I say that these are different levels of the same state - you lack your own funds... By the way, it is not worth comparing current loans with loans in the USSR - the terms of granting were incomparable.
        2. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 08: 06
          +12
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Debt for a car or even for a washing machine is one thing, but for millet and bread in a factory store is quite another.

          And what about debt notebooks in rural shops before retirement or before salary? In rural shops, the amount of money invested in goods is approximately equal to the amount written in the debt notebook.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 08: 14
            -2
            Quote: aleksejkabanets
            And debt notebooks in rural stores before retirement or before salary are
            I wrote about the situation in the "city", in the broad sense of this concept, and not in a specific one:
            But, in fairness: the masses, at least the urban
            1. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 08: 25
              +8
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              I wrote about the situation in the "city", in the broad sense of this concept, and not in a specific one:

              I didn't read it carefully, sorry. In the city, in the grocery stores "in the district" there are debt notebooks the same, although not on such a large scale.
    2. 210ox
      210ox 24 December 2020 07: 08
      +16
      Urban ?? !! Controversial. In a couple of cities. In our Krasnodar Territory, it is often the other way around. The rural population will be richer, though not always. Everything depends on hard work. But history teaches nothing about moneybags. They can also go to manure. Despite the punitive apparatus.
      1. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 08: 14
        +7
        Quote: 210ox
        In our Krasnodar Territory, it is often the other way around. The rural population will be richer, though not always.

        You are mistaken compatriot. Whom do you mean by the rural population? Two, three farmers or the rest of the villagers?
        Quote: 210ox
        Everything depends on hard work.

        It all depends on the amount of money. How will diligence help you to prepare hay for a couple of three cows without equipment, without a walk-behind tractor or minicar? How much is a square meter of a greenhouse built by yourself?
        1. 210ox
          210ox 24 December 2020 13: 12
          0
          Come on, you mean these "farmers". Two, three are large land owners. And I mean ordinary people, who hunch back after the shift. But the truth is on yourself, and for this they also get money.
    3. Marine engineer
      Marine engineer 24 December 2020 10: 36
      +7
      ".... at least urban, now they live pretty well .."

      Until the first serious illness that will require high-tech care, postoperative care and recovery. This "hole" in the budget cannot be repaired with anything (if the "breadwinner" is sick).
      God grant that this does not affect you.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 11: 14
        0
        Quote: Marine Engineer
        God grant that this does not affect you.
        Yes, you don't need that.
        But, I compared the pre-revolutionary situation with the current one, then in this case it would be just darkness.
        Now at least there is a pension "for the loss of the breadwinner", the closest example. In general, in my opinion, now the situation is far from revolutionary.
        1. Marine engineer
          Marine engineer 24 December 2020 20: 59
          +1
          ".... now the situation is far from revolutionary."

          It is still far away, but things can change very quickly.
          Did the male half of the "elite" think, celebrating the 300th anniversary of the Romanov dynasty, that in ten years they would get a job as a taxi driver in Paris. And the "daughters of chamberlains" will learn about the institutions of prostitution.
  • Civil
    Civil 24 December 2020 08: 06
    +17
    Thus, the bourgeoisie and Westernizers believed that if tsarism was destroyed,


    Nothing of the kind, just the people, who already made up the majority in the army up to the middle ranks, are tired of the war and the idiocy of the autocracy.
    The Bolshevik project absorbed the values-codes, basic for the Russian civilization. Such as: the primacy of truth over the law, the spiritual principle - over the material, the general - over the particular.

    Freedom, equality and brotherhood - that was what the Bolsheviks offered. Factories for workers, land for peasants. Not a bunch of capitalist ministers. Even the anthem was "international".
    No bullshit.
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 09: 57
    +1
    Quote: lexus
    There were no PEOPLE behind the bakers.

    Quite controversial. The social cut of the White Army is quite interesting. Let's take a look: PMV mowed down the regular officer corps, in connection with which, by its end, 260 thousand people were promoted to officers by no means noble or, to use your language, of a cristo-baked origin - 70% - from peasants, 25% - workers and bourgeoisie. As of October 1917, there were 320 officers in the army. In the subsequent war, about 220 thousand took part - 50 on the side of the Reds, 170 - Whites. I believe that the backbone of the white army - officers - were nevertheless people from the workers ', peasants' and bourgeois environment. Well, the majority of the white soldiers were socially little different from the red.
    1. Walking
      Walking 24 December 2020 11: 00
      +4
      Many of these wartime officers from raznochintsy received privileges with the rank that they could not get early in peacetime and went to fight in the white army to defend them.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 13: 23
        +1
        Quote: Hiking
        and went to the white army to fight to defend them.

        One of the axioms of the Bolshevik supporters is hatred of the very idea of ​​patriotism. That is, for example, it is impossible for them to admit that whites, or one of the whites could fight for their country, and not for a personal gesheft.
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 18: 35
          +1
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          admitting that whites, or one of the whites could fight for their country, and not for a personal gesheft, is impossible for them.

          And not only for them. For the whites themselves, too. The realities turned out to be such that the Reds fought for Russia as a state, and the Whites were against. And the whites fought just for gesheft, if not for their own, then for a foreign one.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 22: 37
            -1
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            The realities turned out to be such that the Reds fought for Russia as a state, and the Whites were against.

            Yes Yes Yes. Below I write how one great prince out there expounds exactly this.
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            And not only for them. For the whites themselves, too.

            )))
            You and I have a different understanding of patriotism.
        2. gsev
          gsev 19 February 2021 18: 11
          0
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          One of the axioms of Bolshevik supporters is hatred of the very idea of ​​patriotism.

          All White Guards were dependent on foreign interventionists. The Germans, through Krasnov, supplied the most desperate "patriots" from the Volunteer Army with ammunition. For Denikin, the whole Astrakhan army was actually an instrument of Germany and was supposed to help Germany acquire Baku oil and control its transportation after the victory over the Reds.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 20 February 2021 08: 25
            +1
            You retell Bolshevik propaganda, so you get some kind of compote. In the former Russia of that time, German friends and Anglo-French friends were operating. The main German friends were, of course, the Bolsheviks, but not for long, since such friends were sent to the museum by the nose, this became clear very quickly. There were also alternative friends, like the aforementioned Krasnov. VSYUR and Kolchak, on the other hand, were Anglo-French friends. This turned out to be a damn bad idea for White.
      2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 15: 17
        +1
        Quote: Hiking
        Many of these wartime officers from the commoners received privileges with the title

        there were no privileges. By the beginning of 1917, 80-90% of the RIA officers were in the rank ensign.
        I hope it is not necessary to say that they were junkers of accelerated issues, as well as privates and non-commissioned officers "for military merit"? What privileges are we talking about? It seems that Zoshchenko wrote that ensigns lived no more than 12 days. A career ensign could grow in theory to a captain. After the war, he was immediately subject to demobilization. So what is there to "defend"? 30 rubles' salary?
    2. saigon
      saigon 24 December 2020 12: 29
      +1
      Yes, the PMV cut down on the career officers, but even before the war, the Russian nobility could not completely have an officer corps.
      Somehow, gentlemen titled nobles were not eager to become an officer.
      And yet, the most accurate definition of the events of 1917-1922 was given by Denikin, directly calling it CONFUSION.
      Not recognizing that there was turmoil it is not possible to understand why the Bolsheviks won.
      The tsar was betrayed by an approximate stratum with titles and capitals, and the country fell into a state of war of all against all.
      Well, and such a factor of victory for the Reds, they occupied the CENTER of the country, they were quicker to transfer reserves.
    3. Doliva63
      Doliva63 24 December 2020 19: 14
      +5
      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Quote: lexus
      There were no PEOPLE behind the bakers.

      Quite controversial. The social cut of the White Army is quite interesting. Let's take a look: PMV mowed down the regular officer corps, in connection with which, by its end, 260 thousand people were promoted to officers by no means noble or, to use your language, of a cristo-baked origin - 70% - from peasants, 25% - workers and bourgeoisie. As of October 1917, there were 320 officers in the army. In the subsequent war, about 220 thousand took part - 50 on the side of the Reds, 170 - Whites. I believe that the backbone of the white army - officers - were nevertheless people from the workers ', peasants' and bourgeois environment. Well, the majority of the white soldiers were socially little different from the red.

      On the side of the Reds, 46% of the cadre of officers fought. Subtract your 100, what does the white have left? laughing And yet, Abzatsych, it is well known that from the red side to the white they passed several times less than vice versa. And yes, Count Ignatiev, apparently, also came from a bourgeois family? laughing
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 20: 00
        -2
        Quote: Doliva63
        46% of the cadre of officers fought on the side of the Reds.

        Personnel? Half of the career officers?
        Well, yes, in percentage terms, that's impressive. laughing
        Ok, we take Izvestia of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee of 15.06.1918/30/XNUMX, we read ... about XNUMX thousand officers are registered in Moscow (incl. 2500 personnel).
        46% from 2500 - 1150. Registered.
        Well, ok, ok ... 46%
        I do not quite understand - you insist that these 46% voluntarily, "in the manner of labor discipline" (c) went over to the side of the Reds? Oh, yes - the first Decree on appeal officers, military doctors and military. officials was published on July 29, 1918. And then another ...
        Well
        "Former career officers in the overwhelming majority refrain from joining the new army, and the number of those who have expressed a desire to serve does not, according to some reports, even 10% of those registered."

        Bonch-Bruevich, report on July 8, 1918.
    4. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 03: 19
      -1
      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      In the subsequent war, about 220 thousand took part - 50 on the side of the Reds, 170 - White
      But this is a lie, everywhere they describe it as about a third for KA, a third for 50 shades of white, and the rest are non-aligned.
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 25 December 2020 09: 10
        0
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        But this is a lie

        nothing more than your statement.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        everywhere describe as about a third for spacecraft, a third for

        what is so modest - "third"? Vaughn, above:
        Quote: Doliva63
        46% of the cadre of officers fought on the side of the Reds.

        Which one of you is lying?
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 09: 12
          +2
          You wanted to write: of us? Of course you are.
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 25 December 2020 09: 15
            -1
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            You wanted to write: of us?

            I also wrote - from you. Or rather, both of you are lying. And you are with your "third", and he is with "half".
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 09: 40
              0
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              I also wrote - from you. A

              An empty play on words.

              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              And you are with your "third", and he is with "half".

              "Half" - and not half, but 46% is a delusion (by the way, turning 46% into "half" is a cheap demagogic trick), but a third is a rough estimate of data from different sources. And if this is a lie, then your 60% percent of the pre-revolutionary composition is stupid and utter nonsense.
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              As of October 1917, there were 320 officers in the army. In the subsequent war, about 220 thousand took part - 50 on the side of the Reds, 170 - White

              Well, and somehow you did not distinguish between personnel and wartime officers:
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              In the subsequent war, about 220 thousand took part - 50 on the side of the Reds, 170 - White

              And then suddenly they were puzzled by the division:
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              about 30 thousand officers are registered in Moscow (including 2500 personnel).
              46% from 2500 - 1150. Registered.


              Here are some rough estimates
              If we talk about the officer corps in general, in general, then they served in the Red Army, according to A.G. Kavtaradze, 70.000-75.000 people, that is, about 30 percent of its total composition (a smaller share than from the number of General Staff officers, which had its own significant reason). However, even this figure - 30 percent - is in essence disorienting. For, as A.G. Kavtaradze, another 30 percent of the officers in 1917 were out of any army service at all (op.cit., P. 117). This means that the Red Army served not 30, but about 43 percent of the available officers by 1918, while in the White Army - 57 percent (about 100 people).

              https://arctus.livejournal.com/148909.html
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 25 December 2020 10: 00
                -2
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Well, somehow you did not distinguish between personnel and wartime officers

                What for? And it was not me who began to dissemble about personnel officers.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And then suddenly they were puzzled by the division:

                You are deliberately twisting, my dear, it's obvious. My reply was to the opponent's statement:
                Quote: Doliva63
                46% of the cadre of officers fought on the side of the Reds.
                It was not me who was "puzzled", but he inadvertently stuck the term "personnel" in the expectation that it would go unnoticed.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 10: 04
                  +2
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  he inadvertently stuck the term "personnel" in the expectation that it would go unnoticed.
                  I'm afraid this is your tactic.
  • Hypertension
    Hypertension 24 December 2020 16: 09
    +7
    Quote: lexus
    There were no PEOPLE behind the bakers.

    It’s not worth the price of such a people who are worth their backs. Thank God our people turned out to be different. And God willing:
    Quote: lexus
    And the current ones will survive sooner or later.
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 24 December 2020 16: 48
      +7
      No other is given. Otherwise - genocide and extinction ... hi
      1. RUSS
        RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 11
        -1
        Quote: lexus
        Otherwise - genocide

        Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group.

        The question is "who will carry out genocide and against whom?"
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 24 December 2020 20: 22
          +2
          Crooks and thieves over the people. They are already doing it.
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 59
            +1
            Quote: lexus
            Crooks and thieves over the people. They are already doing it.

            Without the people there will be no crooks and thieves))), from whom to cut it? Whom to "sand"? So you are wrong about genocide.
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 24 December 2020 21: 15
              +1
              Quote: RUSS
              Whom to "sand"?

              How whom? Mother Nature: Siberia and the Far East.
            2. Hypertension
              Hypertension 24 December 2020 22: 10
              +1
              Quote: RUSS
              from whom to cut it? Whom to "sand"?

              Are migrants being brought in in vain?
              1. RUSS
                RUSS 25 December 2020 09: 17
                -1
                Quote: Hyperion
                Are migrants being brought in in vain?

                The number of labor migrants in Russia in 2020 decreased by almost a quarter, and those who remained the majority do not plan to stay for permanent residence in Russia
    2. Doliva63
      Doliva63 24 December 2020 19: 20
      +3
      Quote: Hyperion
      Quote: lexus
      There were no PEOPLE behind the bakers.

      It’s not worth the price of such a people who are worth their backs. Thank God our people turned out to be different. And God willing:
      Quote: lexus
      And the current ones will survive sooner or later.

      Well, God won't give anything. "Nobody will give us deliverance ..." Have you heard? Proven in practice. drinks
      1. Hypertension
        Hypertension 24 December 2020 22: 11
        +2
        Quote: Doliva63
        Well, God won't give anything.

        Yes, about God, this is so ... a well-established idiom. hi
  • paul3390
    paul3390 24 December 2020 18: 13
    +6
    “April Abstracts” include 10 provisions:

    Sharp criticism of the war (“it is impossible to end the war with a truly democratic, not violent, peace without overthrowing capital”), an absolute rejection of “revolutionary defencism”;
    The "bourgeois-liberal" stage of the revolution is over, and it is necessary to move on to the "socialist" revolution, during which power must pass into the hands of the proletariat and the poorest peasantry;
    "No support for the Provisional Government";
    The need to resist the bloc of petty-bourgeois opportunist elements while simultaneously promoting the slogan of the need to transfer all state power to the Soviets of Workers' Deputies;
    Not a parliamentary republic, but a republic of Soviets of Workers', Agricultural Laborers' and Peasants' Deputies throughout the country, from top to bottom, with the abolition of the police, army and bureaucratic apparatus and the replacement of the standing army by the general arming of the people; The pay to all officials, with all of them elected and replaced at any time, is not higher than the average pay of a good worker.
    Agrarian reform - the confiscation of all landowners' lands and the nationalization of all lands in the country;
    Banking reform - the merger of all banks in the country into one nationwide bank controlled by the Soviets of Workers' Deputies;
    Council control over social production and distribution of products;
    "Party tasks" of the RSDLP (b) (including the renaming into the Communist Party);
    "Renewal of the International".




    Now the question is - what other than the first point is not relevant these days? And they say that like Lenin and Marx are outdated .. Ha !!!
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 24 December 2020 18: 16
      +5
      Paul hi ,
      with a shrunken brain and with a lost conscience, one cannot honestly rise above them. So they lie.
  • Svarog
    Svarog 24 December 2020 20: 14
    +3
    Today is just some day of wonderful articles .. Finally, at least someone outlined briefly, but definitely the history of that time.
    If it were not for the Bolsheviks, then Russia and the Russians would simply have left the historical arena (as planned in the West).

    The fate of the Bolsheviks is visible, pulling Russia out of the city .. I don’t know if this time it will be possible ..
  • apro
    apro 24 December 2020 04: 47
    +7
    It's just that the red ones knew what to do and did ... the white didn’t know. And they did it at random ...
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 24 December 2020 08: 25
      +10
      Quote: apro
      It's just that the red ones knew what to do and did ... the white didn’t know. And they did it at random ...

    2. Svarog
      Svarog 24 December 2020 20: 18
      +5
      Quote: apro
      It's just that the red ones knew what to do and did ... the white didn’t know. And they did it at random ...

      How does it look like today ... where is our government in the role of whites ..
  • bober1982
    bober1982 24 December 2020 04: 54
    +8
    The author correctly concluded that the whites were republicans, they had no clear unifying idea, they were initially doomed to defeat.
    1. apro
      apro 24 December 2020 05: 08
      -4
      Quote: bober1982
      whites were republicans

      And the Cossacks are separatists? And the supporters of the military dictatorship? And they were not Western mercenaries?
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 24 December 2020 07: 18
        0
        Quote: apro
        And the Cossacks are separatists? And the supporters of the military dictatorship? And they were not Western mercenaries?

        They, of course, were not any Western mercenaries.
        These are the costs of the civil war, for example, to call the ataman Annenkov - white or a protege of the West, the language will not turn, and there were many such characters of that time, on the one hand, on the other.
        1. apro
          apro 24 December 2020 07: 23
          +7
          Do you recall the rank of Kolchak in the British military?
          Quote: bober1982
          war, for example, to call the ataman Annenkov - white or a henchman of the West, language will not turn

          A separatist completely.
          Quote: bober1982
          that on the one hand, that on the other.

          Did the Reds have mercenaries and separatists?
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 24 December 2020 07: 40
            +4
            Ataman Annenkov went crazy, Ataman Krasnov publicly stated this, he spoke this way about his favorite, who commanded a squadron in his regiment, even the Imperial Army.
            What other separatists are there, everything was easier.
            1. apro
              apro 24 December 2020 08: 36
              +5
              Quote: bober1982
              Ataman Annenkov lost his mind

              I understand. On the basis of one character, we can conclude that all white patients of the White House? Cleverly you get it. And Krasnov is also the same. Or is a German henchman? And a separatist?
              1. bober1982
                bober1982 24 December 2020 08: 42
                -4
                Quote: apro
                can we conclude that all white patients in the White House?

                Are the red patients a red house?
                There were enough of them on both sides, potential patients.
                1. apro
                  apro 24 December 2020 08: 47
                  +3
                  Quote: bober1982
                  Are the red patients a red house?
                  There were enough of them on both sides, potential patients.

                  I didn’t accept your thought. I raised the question not about mental health, but about political preferences. About contractual obligations. About national preferences ... and your conclusions that everyone is sick in the head. I personally do not suit.
                  Or you go to the side and do not have a clear understanding of the reasons for the defeat of your sympathizers
                  1. bober1982
                    bober1982 24 December 2020 08: 58
                    -2
                    Quote: apro
                    Or you go to the side and do not have a clear understanding of the reasons for the defeat of your sympathizers

                    The article pointed out the reasons for these defeats, White had absolutely no chance.
                    I really have respect for the White movement.
                    1. apro
                      apro 24 December 2020 09: 01
                      +3
                      Quote: bober1982
                      The article pointed out the reasons for these defeats, White had absolutely no chance.

                      Then why invent deprivation ???
          2. RUSS
            RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 19
            -1
            Quote: apro
            The Reds had mercenaries and separatists

            According to historians, during the years of the Civil War, up to 300 thousand foreigners fought on the side of the Red Army. The most numerous were Hungarians, Latvians and Chinese.
            The first Chinese hired by the Bolsheviks were united to serve in the international detachment, which later became the Leninist Guard. The unit was transported to Moscow, where it was renamed the “First International Legion of the Red Army.” Of all the nationalities that served the Bolsheviks, the Chinese were the least susceptible to the ideas of communism. They fought not for the sake of the world revolution, but for salaries and food. One of the commanders, Liu Fu, recalled that they ate black bread in the Red Army, but they were given white bread and meat in honor of the New Year. The Chinese were classic mercenaries but almost all eyewitnesses describe them as fighters who did not defect and did not reckon with losses.
          3. RUSS
            RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 23
            -5
            Quote: apro
            Did the Reds have mercenaries and separatists?

            Lenin chief separatist
        2. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 08: 32
          +8
          Quote: bober1982
          They, of course, were not any western mercenaries.

          Kolchak, Krasnov, Semyonov were not Western mercenaries?
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 24 December 2020 08: 39
            0
            Quote: aleksejkabanets
            Kolchak, Krasnov, Semyonov were not Western mercenaries?

            Semyonov was a good Cossack officer, that was his level, he was not quite educated as a person, he was a Japanese hireling, he had nothing to do with the West.
            When Kolchak tried to get away from his Western masters and started talking about Russia, he was quickly surrendered to the Bolsheviks.
            Krasnov lost his mind in old age, when he was transported to Moscow, he asked the investigator in prison ....... what the Russian people say about my return to my homeland (!?)
            1. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 08: 43
              +7
              Quote: bober1982
              was a Japanese hireling, had nothing to do with the West

              It makes no difference, in this context, west or east.
              Quote: bober1982
              Cranes in his old age himself lost his mind ...

              Krasnov was guided by the Germans from the very beginning.
              1. bober1982
                bober1982 24 December 2020 08: 45
                0
                Quote: aleksejkabanets
                Krasnov was guided by the Germans from the very beginning.

                Everyone was guided by someone. In the White movement there was complete discord.
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 10: 32
                  +5
                  Quote: bober1982
                  Everyone was guided by someone.

                  Only not on the Russian people themselves.
                  1. bober1982
                    bober1982 24 December 2020 10: 35
                    -11%
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Only not on the Russian people themselves.

                    Lenin, Trotsky and other comrades hated the Russian people, so their orientation was also in disarray.
                    1. aleksejkabanets
                      aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 10: 52
                      +9
                      Quote: bober1982
                      Lenin, Trotsky and other comrades hated the Russian people, so their orientation was also in disarray.

                      Can you refer to historical documents from which you have drawn such "profound" conclusions?
                      1. bober1982
                        bober1982 24 December 2020 11: 06
                        -4
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Can you refer to historical documents from which you have drawn such "profound" conclusions?

                        All wars, revolutions and civil battles are purely religious in nature.
                        Name any thinker, philosopher or Marxist who could explain why it was necessary to smash and destroy Orthodox churches.
                        Not so easy, it turns out, everything was.
                        Why shit in the temple altar?
                        Lenin and Trotsky knew.
                      2. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 11: 24
                        +5
                        Quote: bober1982

                        All wars, revolutions and civil battles are purely religious in nature.

                        Even so ???? and the loot .. and economic interests? All by the will of God?
                      3. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 11: 26
                        +7
                        Quote: bober1982
                        All wars, revolutions and civil battles are purely religious in nature.

                        Based on what preconditions did you make this conclusion? If we consider, for example, the history of the Crusades, we can make an unambiguous conclusion that they were based on purely economic interests. That is, control over Mediterranean (in the broadest sense of the word) trade.
                        Quote: bober1982
                        Name any thinker, philosopher or Marxist who could explain why it was necessary to smash and destroy Orthodox churches.

                        Who and why deliberately beat and destroyed Orthodox churches? Apparently you are not familiar enough with this issue. In addition, one must understand that the bulk of the armed revolutionary people, in general, was far from any "theories". She wanted justice here and now, moreover, justice, as they understood it, given their level of education (or rather the absence thereof). Here the case with the assassination of General Kornilov will be very indicative (google it, it is true that it is indicative).
                        Quote: bober1982
                        Not so easy, it turns out, everything was.
                        Why shit in the temple altar?
                        Lenin and Trotsky knew.

                        You can learn more about this case, I do not know anything about it. And yes, you did not give me links to documents, from which it would be clear that Lenin and Trotsky hated the Russian people.
                      4. bober1982
                        bober1982 24 December 2020 11: 43
                        -5
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Here the case with the assassination of General Kornilov will be very indicative (google it, it is really indicative).

                        Why google it, the story is both scary and revealing, when a crowd turns into cattle, even worse.

                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Who and why deliberately beat and destroyed Orthodox churches?

                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        She wanted justice here and now

                        What is justice here? The crowd got loose, there was someone to direct the energy of the masses (see Lenin, Trotsky)
                      5. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 11: 55
                        +7
                        Quote: bober1982
                        The crowd got loose, there was someone to direct the energy of the masses (see Lenin, Trotsky)

                        It was Lenin and Trotsky who directed the "destructive" energy of the crowd into a creative channel, building a state of workers and peasants. The Russian Federation will never reach the power of this state.
                      6. bober1982
                        bober1982 24 December 2020 12: 03
                        0
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Here Lenin and Trotsky just directed the "destructive" energy of the crowd into a creative channel.

                        Then why, Lev Davidovich, was hit on the head with an ice pick?
                        The positive energy of the masses returned like a boomerang.
                      7. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 12: 08
                        +3
                        Quote: bober1982
                        Then why, Lev Davidovich, was hit on the head with an ice pick?
                        The positive energy of the masses returned like a boomerang.

                        How is the energy of the masses, the ice ax and the power of the USSR related to each other?
                      8. bober1982
                        bober1982 24 December 2020 12: 18
                        -1
                        The most direct connection, by the way, the power of the USSR was crushed by the same energy of the masses, the devil is a great mockingbird.
                      9. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 12: 26
                        +3
                        Quote: bober1982
                        The most direct connection

                        "Horses, people mixed up in a heap ...." Borodino M. Yu. Lermontov
                        Quote: bober1982
                        by the way, the power of the USSR was crushed by the same energy of the masses, the devil is a great mockingbird.

                        You are only partially right. The state must shape the consciousness of the masses. The successors of the Vlasov case, it was formed in this way.
                2. RUSS
                  RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 27
                  +1
                  Quote: aleksejkabanets
                  The Russian Federation will never reach the power of this state.

                  This state has stood for a little over 70 years ...
                  It was not viable
                3. aleksejkabanets
                  aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 20: 48
                  0
                  Quote: RUSS
                  This state has stood for a little over 70 years ...
                  It was not viable

                  The Paris Commune lasted 70 days, the USSR - 70 years, do you feel progress? How long will the next state last?
                4. RUSS
                  RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 57
                  +1
                  Quote: aleksejkabanets
                  How long will the next state last?

                  Wait and see
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 24 December 2020 15: 41
            -2
            Quote: bober1982
            Kornilov (google it, it's really indicative).

            Why google it, the story is both scary and revealing. This is when crowd turns into cattle, even worse.

            Kornilov was killed by a shell in a hut.
          3. bober1982
            bober1982 24 December 2020 16: 49
            -2
            Quote: Olgovich
            Kornilov killed by a shell in a hut

            We are talking about the "funeral" and "commemoration" of the general.
          4. Olgovich
            Olgovich 24 December 2020 22: 32
            0
            Quote: bober1982
            We are talking about the "funeral" and "commemoration" of the general.

            And Alexey is about something else:
            aleksejkabanets (Alexey)
            Today, 18: 46
            I checked myself. Dukhonina, due to the fact that he released Kornilov
          5. bober1982
            bober1982 25 December 2020 04: 30
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            I wrote myself

            Clear.
            I must say - I made an inaccuracy.
            And then, you never know what you can think.
          6. Olgovich
            Olgovich 25 December 2020 08: 00
            +1
            Quote: bober1982
            Clear.
            I must say - I made an inaccuracy.
            And then, you never know what you can think.

            Quote: bober1982
            Clear.
            I must say - I made an inaccuracy.
            And then, you never know what you can think.

            You're ... addressing this nonsense to ME.

            And AGAIN you admit inaccuracy, because I did not write this awkward phrase at all, but Alexey
            :aleksejkabanets (Alexey)
            Today, 18: 46
            I checked myself. Dukhonin, due to the fact that he released Kornilov
          7. bober1982
            bober1982 25 December 2020 08: 03
            +2
            Quote: Olgovich
            You're ... addressing this nonsense to ME.

            I apologize to you.
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 18: 46
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Kornilov was killed by a shell in a hut.

    I checked myself. Dukhonin, because he released Kornilov. Denikin, the mass of soldiers might have forgiven him, but Kornilov was perceived by the soldiers as the main enemy and strangler of revolutionary freedoms.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 24 December 2020 15: 39
    -3
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Who and why deliberately beat and destroyed Orthodox churches?

    The Bolsheviks.

    And they did it in the course of all their power - it's strange that you don't know this: there are about 500 churches in Moscow alone.

    The PEARLS of the Golden Ring of the cities of Suzdal, Vladimir and others, the tombs of Minin and Pozharsky, cenotaphs of the KhXC and Tsushima, Shipka, etc., were blown up so that nothing Russian would remain
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    The case with the assassination of General Kornilov(google it, it's really indicative).

    Pardon me, WHAT are you ?!

    Kornilov was killed by a shell during the storming of Yekaterinodar!
  • bober1982
    bober1982 24 December 2020 16: 50
    -3
    Quote: Olgovich
    Who and why deliberately beat and destroyed Orthodox churches?

    Quote: Olgovich
    Bolsheviks

    No, not the Bolsheviks, other people.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 24 December 2020 17: 13
    0
    Quote: bober1982
    No, not the Bolsheviks, other people.

    above are examples.

    it was exclusively power that broke them.

    So what exactly are they
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 18: 51
    -1
    Quote: Olgovich
    above are examples.

    it was exclusively power that broke them.

    So what exactly are they

    Answered above.
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 18: 50
    +2
    Quote: Olgovich
    And they did it during all their power - it's strange that you don't know this: there are about 500 churches in Moscow alone ...

    Don't lie. The Bolsheviks destroyed only those churches from which the church refused. Those. who did not have a parish and the church did not pay taxes.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Kornilov was killed by a shell during the storming of Yekaterinodar!

    Wrote above. I described myself. I thought about one thing, wrote about another.
  • RUSS
    RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 29
    +1
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    The Bolsheviks destroyed only those churches from which the church refused.

    Outright lies and distortion of historical facts.
    Not only were they destroyed, they also arranged stables, shops, warehouses, etc. in the churches.
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 20: 59
    +1
    Quote: RUSS
    Outright lies and distortion of historical facts.
    Not only were they destroyed, they also arranged stables, shops, warehouses, etc. in the churches.

    Please provide links to the fact that the Bolshevik government in the current church has arranged a stable, for example. Patriarch Tikhon's answer to the question whether Lenin can be remembered. “But Vladimir Ilyich Lenin is not excommunicated from the Orthodox Church by the highest ecclesiastical authority, and therefore every believer has the right and opportunity to remember him. Ideally, Vladimir Ilyich Lenin and I, of course, diverged, but I have information about him as a man of the kindest and truly Christian soul. "
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 24 December 2020 22: 28
    0
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Don't lie. The Bolsheviks destroyed only those churches from which the church refused. Those. who did not have a parish and the church did not pay taxes

    Lies and ignorance: WHO abandoned the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, the Chudov Monastery, the Minin Monastery and the Pozharsky Chapel, the Pozharsky Church, the Kostroma Kremlin, the Suzdal pearl of the Dmitry Salunsky Cathedral and so on, etc.?
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    I wrote above. I described myself. I thought about one thing, wrote about another.

    I got what you mean.

    Although you are partly right about Kornilov: absolutely animals were created over the killed bodies of the people's general due to the savagery of mockery
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 22: 43
    +3
    Quote: Olgovich
    Lies and ignorance: WHO abandoned the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, the Chudov Monastery, the Minin Monastery and the Pozharsky Chapel, the Pozharsky Church, the Kostroma Kremlin, the Suzdal pearl of the Dmitry Salunsky Cathedral and so on, etc.?

    As far as I remember (there is no time to poke around now), services were not held in the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, about five years before the destruction. The church did not pay taxes for him, respectively. And it means that she actually abandoned it. And she could have left, but did not want to. I don’t know about the rest, I didn’t poke around on purpose. And that the church is the highest achievement of RI? Nothing better than the Russian people did not come up with a church? There were few churches in the USSR? They stood half-empty even then, but have they built it in all the parks now? Are there more people walking? People according to "Christian commandments" began to live? Has life improved since the "law of God" has been introduced into schools this hour?
    Quote: Olgovich
    Although you are partly right about Kornilov: absolutely animals were created over the killed bodies of the people's general due to the savagery of mockery

    I wrote that I had described myself. And regarding the mockery of the corpses, no one justified it then, and they do not justify it now.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 24 December 2020 22: 53
    -2
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    As far as I remember (there is no time to poke around now), services were not held in the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, about five years before the destruction. The church did not pay taxes for him, respectively. And it means that she actually abandoned it. I could have left, but did not want to.

    I would honestly be ashamed a write.

    This is fantastic! This, for a minute, is the MAIN monument to the OV in 1812 and a monument to ALL the heroes of OV 1812 who died, with the names of the regiments and Heroes embossed in gold.

    Unique creations of the spirit of the Russian people were used as STONES for the extraction of crushed stone and stone.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    And that the church is the highest achievement of RI? Nothing better than the Russian people did not come up with a church?

    This is his SOUL, embodied in amazingly beautiful temples, monasteries, chapels, icons, books, etc.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    There were few churches in the USSR?

    5% of the former once
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Are there more people walking? People according to "Christian commandments" began to live? Has life improved since the "law of God" has been introduced into schools this hour?

    Of course, dozens of times more: people have gone to church, are going and will go - they need this for their spiritual life.
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 23: 23
    +3
    Quote: Olgovich
    Of course, dozens of times more: people have gone to church, are going and will go - they need this for their spiritual life.

    How has my child's life improved if an outright lie is written in a textbook on Orthodoxy? It is necessary to think of something like this "Prince Vladimir built hospitals and schools" ha-ha-ha. If everything goes at such a pace, then the roofs of schools with domes will soon be replaced. What should make me happy that three churches are being built a day, and schools are closing? When Putin came to power, there were more than seventy thousand schools, today a little more than thirty thousand, should I be happy?
    Quote: Olgovich
    5% of the former once

    Yes, even 0.5%, the main thing is that the Bolsheviks built so many schools that they overcame universal illiteracy. They ensured the USSR's exit to the advanced states of the world, despite the sanctions. And then they were not like today.
    Quote: Olgovich
    This is his SOUL, embodied in amazingly beautiful temples, monasteries, chapels, icons, books, etc.

    Did they destroy everything and burn the books? In my youth I went to Novgorod on an excursion, I saw the frescoes of Theophanes the Greek, how did they survive? The soul of the Russian people in religious buildings?
    What are you carrying? There were commissions that recognized (or did not recognize) certain buildings as cultural values, these commissions consisted mainly of representatives of the pre-revolutionary intelligentsia. Something like this.
    Quote: Olgovich
    I would honestly be ashamed to write that.

    What are you ashamed to write? That the church didn't want to pay taxes? So is it true, why should I be ashamed? And all the church's dissatisfaction with the new government was primarily economic underpinned, in what am I wrong here? Was it not a fair and unjustified measure to confiscate objects of cultural or historical value from the church?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 25 December 2020 08: 40
    -2
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    How has my child's life improved?

    You need to work harder and the child's life will improve.

    And the church is for another.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    What should make me happy that three churches are being built a day, and schools are closing? When Putin came to power, there were more than seventy thousand schools, today a little more than thirty thousand, should I be happy?

    ALL claims to YOUR power, which led to a rapid decrease in Russian children (there are no schools without children), who are with it stopped giving birth- from a "happy" life, apparently, yes.

    And remember the FACT in just 20 years in the RSFSR by 1989 (your heyday) in Russia CLOSED Forty-two thousand schools... Do you hear, no?

    And 10% of rural schools in Russia were without ...electricity!, 75% - without WATER, the vast majority - in EMERGENCY condition


    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Yes, even 0.5%, the main thing is that the Bolsheviks built so many schools that they overcame universal illiteracy. They ensured the USSR's exit to the advanced states of the world, despite the sanctions. And then they were not like today.

    Because of them, the country became literate 10 years LATER: in 10 years of their power, NOT a single school was built (before the thief, 4-5 thousand schools a year.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Ensured the USSR's exit to the advanced states of the world, despite the sanctions

    Yeah THIRD of the harvest - under the snow and losses, grain-purchase, 12 million heads cattle died a year from HUNGER and disease, MILLIONS of hectares of abandoned agricultural land that became a forest.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Did they destroy everything and burn the books? In my youth, I went to Novgorod on an excursion, I saw the frescoes of Theophanes the Greek there, how did they survive that?

    A lot, a lot, you just don't want to know, it will become a shame
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    The soul of the Russian people in religious buildings?

    Take away the Kizhi, the Cathedral of the Intercession of the Virgin, the temple on the Nerl, and what will happen?
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    What are you carrying? There were commissions that recognized (or did not recognize) certain buildings as cultural values, these commissions consisted mainly of representatives of the pre-revolutionary intelligentsia. Something like this.

    belay lol laughing
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    What are you ashamed to write? That the church didn't want to pay taxes?

    FOR BASH written about the CSU,
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Was it not a fair and unjustified measure to confiscate objects of cultural or historical value from the church?

    This is you about those who hammered into scrap at 1921-22?

    Or what?
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 25 December 2020 12: 11
    +3
    Quote: Olgovich
    Are you talking about those who were scrapped with hammers in 1921-22?

    Or what?

    For example, about the Cathedral of St. Basil the Blessed, at least about the same Kizhi. All cultural heritage was destroyed by the Bolsheviks, theaters were destroyed, museums were destroyed, all ballerinas were shot, so what? The Bolsheviks provided the majority of the population with access to world cultural values.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Take away the Kizhi, the Cathedral of the Intercession of the Virgin, the temple on the Nerl, and what will happen?

    Perhaps you need to learn how to distinguish cultural heritage from religious buildings.

    Quote: Olgovich
    Yeah, a THIRD of the harvest - under snow and losses, grain - to buy, 12 million head of cattle died a year from HUNGER and disease, MILLIONS of hectares of abandoned agricultural land that became a forest. And so, such a "advanced" - aha.

    Stalin took the USSR with a plow and an illiterate population, and when he passed away, the country had an advanced industry and nuclear weapons. Food ration cards, if you don't know, the USSR canceled earlier than England, although it suffered much more from the war. "12 million head of cattle died a year from HUNGER and disease," you can quote Solzhenitsyn to me about 100 million people shot in the GULAG. In the USSR there were about 50 million heads of dairy cattle, today about 8 million, as in 1942. And they buy palm oil to replace milk fat. About a third of the harvest under the snow, smiled. I remember those days. My wife's grandfather was the chairman of the collective farm of a millionaire, a hero of social services. labor. By the way, a native of the colony for juvenile delinquents Makarenko. I know all these "collective farm affairs" well enough. Bring this nonsense to the "victims of the exam" and they will probably twist your finger at your temple.


    Quote: Olgovich
    Because of them, the country became literate 10 years LATER: in 10 years of their power, NOT a single school was built (before the thief, 4-5 thousand schools a year.

    Just write the number of teachers per 1000 people before the revolution, and after. Then look at these numbers and think, is it not difficult?
    Quote: Olgovich
    You need to work harder and the child's life will improve.

    How does this compare with what I wrote?
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    How has my child's life improved if an outright lie is written in a textbook on Orthodoxy? It is necessary to think of something like this "Prince Vladimir built hospitals and schools" ha-ha-ha. If everything goes at such a pace, then the roofs of schools with domes will soon be replaced. What should make me happy that three churches are being built a day, and schools are closing? When Putin came to power, there were more than seventy thousand schools, today a little more than thirty thousand, should I be happy?

    Or is there nothing to answer? Are you satisfied with this state of affairs? I am not satisfied categorically. The school should instill in the child critical thinking and scientific knowledge of the world. And the theory of the "Divine origin of the world" should remain only a theory, along with the rest. Until proven, as will the rest. I hate to watch how characters like you drag my country back to medieval obscurantism.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 25 December 2020 13: 02
    -2
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    For example, about the Cathedral of St. Basil the Blessed, at least about the same Kizhi. All cultural heritage was destroyed by the Bolsheviks, theaters were destroyed, museums were destroyed, all ballerinas were shot, so what?

    Not all, but TENS OF THOUSANDS of monuments, historical buildings, structures, MILLIONS of books, icons were chopped up and burned, works of art were turned into scrap and rubble.
    What kind of NON-HUMANS do you have to be to demolish such beauty of the 16th century in Suzdal?

    And there are THOUSANDS of them!
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    The Bolsheviks provided the majority of the population with access to world cultural values.

    They deprived the entire population of access to all world values ​​and to many Russians. Lots of writers, FORBIDDEN books - burned
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Perhaps you need to learn how to distinguish cultural heritage from religious buildings.

    lol
    Kizhi is what? And the Cathedral of the Intercession of the Virgin in Moscow (V. Blessed)?
    This is our culture, soul and Faith, without which Russians simply would not exist.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Stalin took the USSR with a plow and an illiterate population, and when he passed away, the country had an advanced industry and nuclear weapons.

    The country had an endless HUNGER, often with deaths from starvation, endless lines for everything, a devastated village, a wild housing crisis and a demographic crisis.
    1952, commissions of the Central Committee of the CPSU travel around the country, checking the catastrophic situation with products.
    Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU Aristov one of the leaders of such a comm: \:
    “I was in Ryazan. - What's there? Interruptions? - No, I say, Comrade. Stalin, no interruptions, but for a long time there is no bread there, no butter, no sausage... He stood in line with Larionov at 6-7 am, checked. No bread anywhere.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    "12 million head of cattle died a year from HUNGER and disease," you can also quote Solzhenitsyn to me, about 100 million people shot in the GULAG.

    You are cited information of the Soviet STATIS from the monograph by DIN Denisova "Disappearing village of Non-Black Earth Region", there you will find links to the statistics of the RSFSR (I gave a number for it)
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    About a third of the harvest under the snow, smiled.

    Laughter for no reason is a sign of what?
    Ignorance. Least. A THIRD of the harvest perished under your rule is just a conscientious STATISTICS, see the monograph by Denisova
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Bring this nonsense to the "victims of the exam" and they will probably twist your finger at your temple.

    You are densely ignorant, excuse me.
    Read also Beznin's monograph "Peasant Yard". In both monographs.
    800 pages with links to owls. statistics

    You are the numbers given challenge-by schools, crops, livestock... Unable? No, not able to.

    I can add: HALF A MILLION abandoned residential buildings, 60 thousand skillful villages out of 180, MILLIONS of abandoned land with you in the Non-Black Earth Region and a MILLION of such houses in the country, while 90% of arable land is a result of barbaric attitudes exhausted (in Russia) 40% of reclaimed lands are ABANDONED, 70% of labor in livestock breeding ... MANUAL!
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Just write the number of teachers per 1000 people before the revolution, and after. Then look at these numbers and think, is it not difficult?

    You don't understand Ruksian at all? Once again: in 10 years of Soviet power, NOT A SINGLE SCHOOL was built, that is, 40 THOUSAND schools were lost, MILLIONS went to school later.
    ALL hundreds of thousands of teachers are ROYAL. Or will you bring them from the Swiss?
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Until proven, as will the rest. I hate to see how characters like you drag my country back into medieval obscurantism.

    The country was in obscurantism when, from the wild fear and lies of the crowd, they yelled at first "Glory to Comrade Yagoda (Beria, Yezhov, etc.)!", And a couple of years later yelled "Death to the criminal Yagoda (...)!"
    And disgust is caused by statements such as February 1933: "Kohozniks have become PROVIDED people!" More than ten thousand wealthy people died of hunger that day
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 25 December 2020 14: 20
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Kizhi is what? And the Cathedral of the Intercession of the Virgin in Moscow (V. Blessed)?
    This is our culture, soul and Faith, without which Russians simply would not exist.

    I am an atheist, for me, Kizhi, the Cathedral of the Intercession of the Virgin and so on, these are primarily monuments of Russian architecture. Orthodoxy, like any other religion, for me is simply "religious prejudice", nothing more. In your opinion, who is Orthodox is Russian?
    Quote: Olgovich
    The country was in obscurantism when from the wild fear and lies of the crowd ...

    Obscurantism is when churches are built instead of schools, when a law "on the protection of the rights of believers" is introduced, but there is no law "on the protection of the rights of atheists", When subjective concepts are introduced into the basic law of the country. By God's will, we have a secular state, so what?
    Quote: Olgovich
    You don't understand Ruksian at all? Once again: in 10 years of Soviet power, NOT A SINGLE SCHOOL was built, that is, 40 THOUSAND schools were lost, MILLIONS went to school later.
    ALL hundreds of thousands of teachers are ROYAL. Or will you bring them from the Swiss?

    Apparently in these 10 years you include a civil war? So, schools, children. houses and others were located in former merchant or noble houses, did you know about this? As for the teachers, I will tell you more and the officers in the Red Army were the same as tsarist. They do not appear anywhere in a couple of years. Have you heard of the law "on cook's children"?
    Quote: Olgovich
    You dispute the figures given, for schools, crops, livestock. Unable? No, not able to.

    Let's do this, formulate the questions (and I will formulate), and within a couple of weeks I will find statistical data and historical sources, write (write, write) an article, and then we will discuss all this. Too voluminous and emotional comments are received. And yes, the monograph is not a historical source, there are simply links to sources. You know that there is such a discipline - source study.
    Quote: Olgovich
    The country had an endless HUNGER, often with starvation,

    This is just how we compare when hunger was more often before the revolution or after, and why.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 25 December 2020 15: 41
    -1
    Quote: aleksejkabanets

    I am an atheist, for me, Kizhi, the Cathedral of the Intercession of the Virgin and so on, these are primarily monuments of Russian architecture

    Russian SOUL
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    In your opinion, who is Orthodox is Russian?

    Orthodoxy has made us RUSSIAN, whether you like it or not.

    Believe / Disbelieve -Your right, guaranteed today, but nonexistent earlier.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Obscurantism is when churches are built instead of schools, when a law "on the protection of the rights of believers" is introduced, but there is no law "on the protection of the rights of atheists",

    Your rights of an atheist are not limited by ANYTHING, now is not the Bolshevik time of lawlessness.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Apparently in these 10 years you include a civil war? So, schools, children. houses and others were located in former merchant or noble houses, did you know about that?

    The number of schools has NOT increased. Did not know?
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    As for the teachers,

    You just need to remember: EVERYTHING was done BEFORE YOU - teachers, schools, district doctors, etc., etc.
    Yours destroyed it all, then, having lost 13 years to restore, moved on.

    Yours stole 13 years of development from the country.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Let's do this, formulate the questions (and I will formulate), and within a couple of weeks I will find statistical data and historical sources, write (write, write) an article, and then we will discuss all this. Too voluminous and emotional comments are received. And yes, the monograph is not a historical source, there are simply links to sources. You know that there is such a discipline - source study.

    the figures are given, the sources are indicated, the monographs are on the Soviet statistical compilations, familiarize yourself with them first.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    This is just how we compare when hunger was more often before the revolution or after, and why.

    everything has been compared for a long time: never in Russia and in the world have there been such terrible famines with millions of victims as in the peaceful 1931-33 and 1920-25
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 25 December 2020 17: 20
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    the figures are given, the sources are indicated, the monographs are on the Soviet statistical compilations, familiarize yourself with them first.

    I already wrote
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Let's do this, formulate the questions (and I will formulate), and within a couple of weeks I will find statistical data and historical sources, write (write, write) an article, and then we will discuss all this. Too voluminous and emotional comments are received. And yes, the monograph is not a historical source, there are simply links to sources. You know that there is such a discipline - source study.

    I offered your right to refuse and continue pouring unsubstantiated slop on your past.
    But the question is why, instead of a thoughtful meaningful conversation with numbers and facts in your hands, you continue to carry this emotional delirium? Why do you refer to such monographs (in fact, fiction) instead of statistical data and historical sources put into circulation? With the same success you can refer to Solzhenitsyn. If you cannot give figures, with indication of sources - do not write. Tell me, have you ever seen that someone would refer to Lenin, for example, without specifying an article or work? And if the work is long, then they also link with the indication of the page (paragraph). You are suggesting to me that in eight hundred pages of text to fish out links to sources? Do you think I have time for this? Or do you, for some reason incomprehensible to me, think that the monograph is a historical source?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 25 December 2020 19: 36
    0
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    I offered, your right to refuse and continue pouring unsubstantiated wash on your past.

    You called the TRUTH / facts slops. The facts are provided by links.

    What is your soul, except for slops on the truth? Nothing.

    These are not shouts about the "advanced" country of the world, but the reality of how she lived root Russia of the Pskov region, Smolensk region, Oryol region, Bryansk region and so on - straining, drinking intoxicated, dying out, without funds, without resources, without hope and prospects, in the manure and impassable dirt of endangered villages.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Why do you refer to such monographs (in fact, fiction) instead of statistical data and historical sources put into circulation?

    You do not know, at least look first: open these monographs - there are THOUSANDS of links to statistics
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    If you cannot give figures, with indication of sources - do not write. FROM

    You are given sources. Behind EVERY number is the source
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    You are suggesting to me that in eight hundred pages of text to fish out links to sources?

    Of course. HOW did you want?
    Learn the REAL History of your country
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Do you think I have time for this?

    I believe that if he does not exist and you do not know anything, then you cannot rudely (for example, a victim of the exam) deny the facts given by others.

    Good luck!
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 25 December 2020 19: 52
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    I believe that if he does not exist and you do not know anything, then you cannot rudely (for example, a victim of the exam) deny the facts given by others.

    You have no facts.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Let's do this, formulate the questions (and I will formulate), and within a couple of weeks I will find statistical data and historical sources, write (write, write) an article, and then we will discuss all this. Too voluminous and emotional comments are received. And yes, the monograph is not a historical source, there are simply links to sources. You know that there is such a discipline - source study.

    Weak? Only emotional blah blah blah? Are you all "guardians" like that? One blah blah blah and emotion.
  • Foul skeptic
    Foul skeptic 25 December 2020 14: 08
    +2
    Happy New Year, Andrey.
    ALL claims to YOUR power, which led to a rapid decrease in Russian children (there are no schools without children), who have ceased to give birth under her, apparently, from a "happy" life.

    That same "power" which turned out to be disgusting. All right, only Russian children. So imagine, she managed to do the same with children of all other countries.
    FACT in just 20 years in the RSFSR by 1989 (your most flourishing) in Russia FORTY-TWO THOUSAND schools were CLOSED.

    Facts without analysis are the same as laughter without a reason.
    General education schools may have decreased from 103,8 thousand in 1970 to 69,4 thousand in 1989. That's just the teachers increased over the same period from 1297 thousand to 1419 thousand people. How so? ))
    It seems to me that this is different from the situation when both indicators are decreasing (in 2018, 1080 thousand teachers).
    And 10% of rural schools in Russia at the same time were without ... electricity !, 75% -without WATER, the vast majority-in an EMERGENCY condition

    share the source. No, I believe in these numbers, it's just that a certain number is always surrounded by additional information and this may change its interpretation. Now 12,3% of rural schools do not have a sewerage system. It is impossible to draw conclusions based on mere numbers.
    Because of them, the country became literate 10 years LATER: in 10 years of their power, NOT a single school was built (before the thief, 4-5 thousand schools a year.

    Yeah. Once in 2019 the population of Russia decreased by 99 thousand people, then in 2019 the number of births is 0. This is your "logic".
    1) In 10 years, the country would be thinking hard about which items of the post-war budget to cut in order to pay off the debt in the amount of a quarter of the pre-war budget annually.
    2) In 1910 the MNE reports on the number of its students - 4,41 million
    In 1914, MNE reports on the number of its students - 5,94 million
    Let's round up the annual growth to 385 thousand students.
    In 10 years, 3,85 million students would have been added, and 35 million potential students would have been born. Is the opportunity to get an education from every tenth a literate country?
    3) By 1940, with such a child's count, we will have 15,57 million students, subject to the construction of your 4-5 thousand schools of the "model of the beginning of the century." In fact, in 1940 there were 20,63 million students (with a significant part of them in seven-year-olds, not four-year-olds, which also differs from the structure when there is a minority in 4-year-olds, and the majority in 4-year-olds).
    And this is provided that we started from the low base of 1910 (because in 1905 there were 5,63 million students) and forget about the country's economy and finances after 1914 - after WWI the country would have had no time for problems for a very long time. education system.
    To assess the level of education coverage of the population to be correct, it is necessary to look at what percentage of children at the onset of school age ended up in school (and finished it). And how this percentage has changed. Everything else is a game of numbers.
    Take away the Kizhi, the Cathedral of the Intercession of the Virgin, the temple on the Nerl, and what will happen?

    Yes, I'm also wondering what will happen?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 25 December 2020 16: 00
    +1
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Here is the "power" which turned out to be disgusting. All right, only Russian children. So imagine, she managed to do the same with children of all other countries


    Hello Timur!

    Other countries had nowhere to grow.

    When there is somewhere to grow, the population grows at a tremendous pace, only in a "nogodny" country, on the contrary ..
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Facts without analysis are the same as laughter without a reason.
    General education schools may have decreased from 103,8 thousand in 1970 to 69,4 thousand in 1989. That's just the teachers increased over the same period from 1297 thousand to 1419 thousand people. How so? ))

    The number of rural schools in Russia for the unfortunate 20 years 1965-1985 has decreased more than TWO times.

    Reasons - The population is fleeing and dying out - what is unclear?

    90% - WITHOUT sewage. 10% without light.

    Homes for dey with them - almost everyone is in an emergency state

    Data: Monograph by Denisova "The Vanishing Village of Russia"
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Yeah. Once in 2019 the population of Russia decreased by 99 thousand people, then in 2019 the number of births is 0. This is your "logic".

    Horseradish is not a carrot, although it looks like it's about your comparison.
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Everything else is a game of numbers

    Which is what you are trying to do.

    The growth rate of the number of students in Russia was much higher than the USSR in the 1920s, and by 1940 it would have approached about the same (Russia is better).

    Only there would be many, many millions more children and they would be taught not to praise / crap hedgehogs, berries, etc., but to normal Literature and History
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Yes, I'm also wondering what will happen?

    It's nothing.
  • Foul skeptic
    Foul skeptic 25 December 2020 17: 55
    0
    Other countries had nowhere to grow.

    When there is somewhere to grow, the population grows at a tremendous pace, only in a "nogodny" country, on the contrary ..

    Really? And where do we grow? Over the 60th parallel and 60th meridian? And then tell us, please, how did it happen that the same Canada, Australia, or Brazil, where the population density is 3 times lower (comparable in Brazil) than in the RSFSR, has not grown anywhere? And for the period 1965-1985 in Canada, the birth rate fell by 34%, in Australia by 25%, in Brazil by 27%. Why didn't they grow? After all, they have where with such a scanty population density? In the United States, the population density during this period is 8-10 times less than that of Western Europe, that is, it grows and expands. But no, in 1965-1985 the birth rate also decreased by 20%. How is it that the power is also not the same?
    The number of rural schools in Russia for the unfortunate 20 years 1965-1985 has decreased more than TWO times.
    Reasons - The population is fleeing and dying out - what is unclear?

    Wait, I asked a specific question:
    Are the situations when the number of schools is decreasing and the number of teachers is growing comparable with the situation when both indicators are decreasing?
    Horseradish is not a carrot, although it looks like it's about your comparison.

    If your Armorácia rusticána looks like Daucus carota, then many questions disappear.
    What's wrong with the comparison? It matches yours with schools as much as possible.
    Which is what you are trying to do.

    that is, I choose specific convenient periods, like here?
    The growth rate of the number of students in Russia was much higher than the USSR 1920-x , and by 1940 they would have approached about the same (Russia is better).

    What is your conviction that RI, if it existed in the 1920s, could boast of an arbitrarily significant student growth rate?
    It's nothing.

    Is it possible more fully?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 25 December 2020 20: 34
    0
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Really? And where do we grow? Over the 60th parallel and 60th meridian? And then tell us, please, how did it happen that the same Canada, Australia, or Brazil, where the population density is 3 times lower (comparable in Brazil) than in the RSFSR, has not grown anywhere?

    Cheating, yes. Ugly ...

    В EUROPEAN (where in Canada there is so much European zone, eh?) The density of Russia was 35 people / km2. Plus the huge empty southern Siberia, plus the huge Primorsky Territory (good climate). I don't want to grow!

    In Europe, density is SEVEN times higher - nowhere to grow

    WHERE in Canada Primorsky Krai and South Siberia? Yes, there is all life along the southern border!
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Wait, I asked a specific question:
    Are the situations when the number of schools is decreasing and the number of teachers is growing comparable with the situation when both indicators are decreasing?

    I remember: I am not interested in your question.

    The fact of the DISASTER is obvious: the number of schools has been reduced by more than TWO times, and the number of clubs and libraries has been reduced by a THIRD
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    What's wrong with the comparison? It matches yours with schools as much as possible.

    Stupidity: the death of schools for natural reasons is very rare - Russian schools still stand and live. And there are a lot of their births. So there should have been only a plus. In that century, of course.

    It's not like that with people.
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    What is your conviction that RI, if it existed in the 1920s, could boast of an arbitrarily significant student growth rate?

    On the facts:

    https://bash-m-ak.livejournal.com/?skip=150- тут обоснование цифр
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Is it possible more fully?

    Of course it is possible:

    You go into the house as if you were in a tavern.
    And the people are every third enemy.
    Turn the cheekbone - uninvited guest
    The images in the corner and those are skewed.

    And started a vague, wonderful conversation,
    Someone moaned and tormented the guitar,
    And the attacker and the thief
    The knife showed me secretly from under the tablecloth.

    “Who will answer me what kind of house this is?
    Why in darkness like a plague barrack?
    The light of the lamps went out, the air poured out,
    Ali forgot how to live with you? "

    Your doors are wide open, and your soul is locked up,
    Who is the boss here? I would drink wine ...
    And in response to me, "Looks like you were on the way
    And I forgot people, we always live like this.

    We eat grass, century on sorrel
    Sour with souls, sprinkled.
    And they even enjoyed themselves with wine
    They ravaged the house, fought, hanged themselves. "

    “I killed the horses, rode away from the wolves,
    Show me the edge where it is light from the lamps
    Show me the place you were looking for
    Where they sing and don't groan, where the floor doesn't roll. "

    “We have not heard of such houses,
    We got used to living in darkness for a long time.
    From time immemorial we are in evil and whisper
    Under the icons in black soot
    »
  • Foul skeptic
    Foul skeptic 30 December 2020 15: 46
    0
    "where is so much European zone in Canada, huh?" - in Canada there can be no "European zone", since Canada is not in Europe, once, there is no climatic zone with the name "European", two.
    "WHERE in Canada Primorsky Krai and South Siberia?" - On an area of ​​some kind of 4 million km2. All of Canada below 57 degrees latitude - Primorsky Krai and South Siberia (sharply continental and monsoon climate).
    "Yes, there is all life along the southern border!" - And in the Russian Federation all life is in the European part and the further south or "Moscow" the more. And as in the Russian Federation no one seeks from the European part, so in Canada no one seeks from the southern border, which is a) at the latitude of the Rostov region b) on the border with the United States where there is a free migration regime.
    And not because there is nowhere to live. Only a part of the territory of the provinces of Quebec and Ontario in 1,9 million km2 with the climate of the Sverdlovsk region would be enough for the eyes for the resettlement of Canadians. It's just that in the Sverdlovsk region people live quite normally for themselves, and in the same conditions Canadians no longer want to, because there are more acceptable options for them - after all, the density of several hundred people per km2, what you put out as "nowhere to grow" is actually LITTLE for the urbanistic model of the modern world. And I do not mention 0,6 million km2 of Saskatchewan and Manitoba with the climate of the Voronezh region.
    In Europe, density is SEVEN times higher - nowhere to grow

    In Europe (and by Europe, as I understand it, you mean the European Union countries), the density is highly differentiated, and the high concentration in certain parts of it is due to the migration flows of the economically active part of the population. The average density in 2013 was 115 people / km2 in Europe. (in 1965, naturally even lower). To make it clearer, in the Moscow region without Moscow, the density for the current year is 173 people / km2. That is, one and a half times higher than the average European. Do you think the Moscow region is overpopulated, where everyone is running around on each other's heads? I can assure you that it is not.
    "You're cheating, yes. It's ugly ...." - no. I just DO NOT manipulate the groundless slogan "Europe has nowhere to grow" when they rightly say that the decline in the birth rate in the 20th century is a natural global process, and not an exception in the form of one country where the power is not like that.

    I remember: I am not interested in your question

    Too difficult to comprehend (which is unlikely) or simply too inconvenient (which is most likely)?

    Stupidity: the death of schools for natural reasons is very rare - Russian schools still stand and live. And there are a lot of their births. So there should have been only a plus. In that century, of course

    "so there should only be a plus" - this is so inconsistent with reality and contrary to elementary logic, and you understand it so much that you had to add "in that century, of course." What is funny. Why is it in that century "of course", but in this century "not of course"?
    Well, another question:
    how can you prove these words of yours: "in 10 years of their power not a single school has been built"? After all, you cannot refer to anything other than the total number of schools, and this is not proof of the lack of construction of new schools. Just like the general decrease in the number of schools in the Russian Federation in this century, it is not proof that not a single school was built in this century - the school outside my window will be a confirmation of this.
    On the facts:

    What are the facts? Found in LJ an amateur to build graphs in Excel and pass them off as facts?
    There is an error on the error and 90% of the data not confirmed by him. Aren't you ashamed to bring this up?
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 14: 47
    +4
    Quote: bober1982
    Name any thinker, philosopher or Marxist who could explain why it was necessary to smash and destroy Orthodox churches.

    "Why are they making holes in the ancient cathedral? - Because for a hundred years here an overweight priest, hiccupping, took bribes and sold vodka" (Blok). Note - he explains, not why it SHOULD BE DONE, but why it was already DONE. And not just anyone, but those same Orthodox Russian people.
    And "why do you need it," once explained a VERY POPULAR philosopher: "Crush the reptile!" True, he was talking about the Catholic Church, but horseradish radish ...
    Quote: bober1982
    Why shit in the temple altar? Lenin and Trotsky knew.

    Did those peasants who did it know or not?
  • bober1982
    bober1982 24 December 2020 14: 56
    -3
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    "Crush the reptile!"

    So shouted not only the popular thinker you mentioned, but also his ideological students in October 1993, right for word.
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    (Block). Note - he explains, not why it SHOULD BE DONE, but why it was already done

    Blok had a clouding of mind, science has proven that he was not himself, how can you trust his explanations.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 15: 35
    +4
    Quote: bober1982
    Blok had a clouded mind, scientifically proven

    And where is the evidence? But even so, these words of his testify to his great intelligence and knowledge of the realities of that time. So you can and should trust him in this.
  • bober1982
    bober1982 24 December 2020 16: 54
    +3
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    these words of his testify to his great intelligence and knowledge of the realities of that time.

    The time was so terrible that the entire population of Russia had knowledge of the realities of that time.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 24 December 2020 15: 48
    -4
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    Because for a hundred years here an obese priest, hiccuping, took bribes and sold vodka "(Blok)

    It's not about the priest, but about the lumpen revolutionaries who ravaged the estate of Shakhmatovo Blok: the legs of an ebony piano served as legs trestle bedand meat was chopped on the piano deck in the yard.

    But even then, at least they did not urinate on the marble. plaques with the names of the heroes of Plevna, as the Bolsheviks did, who arranged a public toilet in the chapel of the Heroes of Plevna.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 17: 34
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    It's not about the priest

    It is in the pope. And in the master, who "liked to roam around the wretched village on a beautiful horse."
    Quote: Olgovich
    in revoyuztoner-lumpen

    If! Those same peasants who had lived around this estate for hundreds of years and spoke in worship to the owners: "Father-master".
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 19: 00
    +3
    Quote: Olgovich
    It's not about the priest, but about the lumpen revolutionaries who ravaged Blok Shakhmatovo's estate: the legs of an ebony piano served as the legs of the trestle bed, and meat was chopped on the piano deck in the courtyard.

    But even then, at least they did not urinate on the marble. plaques with the names of the heroes of Plevna, as the Bolsheviks did, who arranged a public toilet in the chapel of the Heroes of Plevna.

    The time was like that, people were dark, illiterate. They remembered who flogged them and spoiled their daughters, and took revenge not on a specific person, but on the "class of oppressors." And by the way, these, as you write, "revolutionary lumpen", were educated under the Soviet regime and reached Berlin. Having smashed the tribal Prussian aristocracy, which was proud of its victories since the time of Frederick the Great.
  • BAI
    BAI 24 December 2020 18: 08
    +5
    Name any thinker, philosopher or Marxist who could explain why it was necessary to smash and destroy Orthodox churches.
    Not so easy, it turns out, everything was.
    Why shit in the temple altar?

    Well, they already explained - the people had such hatred for tsarism that everything that embodied tsarism was destroyed: the church, the nobility, the officers. And why were the architectural monuments destroyed, the graves of the real heroes of the fatherland destroyed, even though they were nobles and officers? But because thanks to the royal education - to be able to sign and read the psalter, people did not know who Bagration, Nakhimov, etc. were. And they proceeded from a simple principle - a nobleman, an officer - to destroy. And the church got, accordingly, because - the stronghold of the tsarist regime. Everyone understood this. Therefore, all these acts of vandalism are exclusively to blame for the tsarist regime. And about the "vandals" one could say: "God forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." People had no education, thanks to the father-tsar for this.
  • bober1982
    bober1982 24 December 2020 19: 43
    0
    Quote: BAI
    But because thanks to the royal education - to be able to sign and read the psalter

    What does it mean? I mean the Psalter, the ability to read it, because you have to be a very, very literate person, let's just say. And why should they read it? And, this is with the ability to only sign, in your words.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 14: 29
    +2
    The people themselves, it seems, did not notice this. On the one hand: "How Kolchak went through" (in the sense: like Mamai), on the other: "God sent Lenin and he gave us a good life."
  • RUSS
    RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 24
    -2
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Kolchak, Krasnov, Semyonov were not Western mercenaries?

    Absolutely not, and you will not prove otherwise
    1. aleksejkabanets
      aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 21: 08
      0
      Quote: RUSS
      Absolutely not, and you will not prove otherwise

      If you want, you will find everything yourself. I don't want to waste time.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 17: 46
    -1
    Quote: bober1982
    conclusion, whites were republicans

    The whites were rabble. Vinaigrette.
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 34
      -6
      Quote: Sahar Medovich
      The whites were rabble. Vinaigrette.

      The Reds were cattle, lumpen, antichrists, and by the way, many Red leaders finished badly, someone was shot in the back of the head by the verdict, who left for the camp!
      1. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 21: 12
        +1
        Quote: RUSS
        The Reds were cattle, lumpen, antichrists, and by the way, many Red leaders finished badly, someone was shot in the back of the head by the verdict, who left for the camp!

        The Antichrists were especially moved. Why do you hate them so much? After all, it is to them that you owe your present existence. Remind me if the Red Army broke the back of German Nazism?
      2. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 25 December 2020 03: 22
        0
        Quote: RUSS
        Reds were cattle, lumpen, antichrists

        But compared to whites, they are saints. No wonder the peasants then kept portraits of Lenin in the red corners. Next to the icons.
  • Van 16
    Van 16 24 December 2020 04: 56
    +14
    Only yesterday there was an article about the Bolotnikov uprising, today about the Civil War. You read such articles, remember the history, and you are amazed how often our power-holders step on the same rake. Apparently in relation to them, the main vice is not only cowardice, but also greed.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 05: 07
    +4
    Nicholas II was opposed by the elite of the Russian Empire - grand dukes and aristocrats, generals and church hierarchs, industrialists and bankers, politicians and public figures, commercial capital and the liberal intelligentsia
    Elite in very large quotes.
    1. magdama
      magdama 24 December 2020 06: 30
      +2
      Why in quotes? Are you talking about the "intelligentsia"? What did Lenin call her? That's right, a prostitute. It was the country's elite - the aristocracy, industrialists, and the army - who opposed Nicholas II.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 06: 42
        0
        Quote: magdama
        It was the elite of the country that opposed Nicholas II - the aristocracy, industrialists, the army
        The aristocracy of the late RI elite? The generals of the late RI elite? Well you bent
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 10: 13
          +2
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          The aristocracy of the late RI elite? The generals of the late RI elite? Well you bent

          and who then rank among the elite? Members of the RSDLP?
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 10: 20
            -3
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            and who then rank among the elite? Members of the RSDLP?
            Do you put a framework for me right away? Oh well. The elite are the best people, morally and intellectually. The aristocracy and generals of the late RI are the best people, morally and intellectually, in your opinion ??
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 10: 31
              +4
              "Most of our nobles are a bunch of degenerates who, apart from their personal interests and the satisfaction of their personal lusts, do not recognize anything, and therefore direct all their efforts to obtain certain favors at the expense of the people's money collected from the impoverished Russian people for the state good ... At the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, it is impossible to pursue a policy of the Middle Ages, when the people, at least in part of theirs, become conscious, it is impossible to pursue a policy of unfairly encouraging a privileged minority at the expense of the majority. , which explodes at the first opportunity.Our entire revolution occurred because the rulers did not understand and do not understand the truth that society, the people move. The government is obliged to regulate this movement and keep it on the banks, and if it does not do it, but directly roughly blocks the way, then a revolutionary deluge occurs ... "(S.Yu. Witte)
            2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 11: 12
              0
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              The aristocracy and generals of the late RI are the best people, morally and intellectually, in your opinion ??

              I don’t presume to judge. "Best" versus whom?
              The question is the same - what do you mean by the elite of the "late RI"?
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 11: 23
                -2
                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                The question is the same - what do you mean by the elite of the "late RI"?

                Yes, even the RSDLP, morally and intellectually, these people undoubtedly surpassed both the upper aristocracy and the generals of the late RI.

                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                I can not judge

                That is, it makes no sense to ask a similar counter question? But I'll try: what do you mean by the elite of "late RI"?
                1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 12: 16
                  +3
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Yes, even the RSDLP

                  predictable. yes
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  and what do you mean by the elite of "late RI"?

                  I conservatively mean what it essentially was, even the "early" or "late" empire - a crowned family, a diplomatic and law-making corps, the Academy of Sciences, a cabinet of ministers, industrial tycoons, high-ranking officers, technocrats and intellectuals - all those who determined the foreign and domestic policy of the state and its life in general. To the same extent, in the change of elites that followed in 1917, I consider the elite the Soviet party nomenklatura, the industrial directorate, the Council of People's Commissars, and the top officers of the Red Army. I am not touching the question quality elites - this always results in subjective breaking of copies.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 13: 27
                    +1
                    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    predictable.

                    It is especially funny that the elite of this elite is sitting in Switzerland.
                    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 14: 00
                      +1
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      predictable.

                      It is especially funny that the elite of this elite is sitting in Switzerland.

                      It's funny that this comrade calls the elite a handful of unknown expats who lived in exile on funds of dubious origin and hatched extremist plans.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 14: 08
                        +3
                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        The funny thing is that this comrade calls a bunch of unknown expats as an elite,

                        Half. The other half are convicts.
                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        living in exile on funds of dubious origin

                        What's so dubious? We lived by robbery, then bish expami.
                      2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 14: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        What's so dubious?

                        this is a euphemism) Purely out of delicacy - guys in dusty helmets react nervously when it comes to the criminal habits of their idols
                      3. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 14: 27
                        +1
                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        goes about the criminal habits of their idols

                        Now it is called "luting" and "predominantly peaceful protest". So people were just ahead of their time.
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 24 December 2020 15: 58
                        -1
                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Purely out of delicacy - the guys in dusty helmets react nervously when it comes to the criminal habits of their idols

                        Now this is no longer scary: Budenovka is not only dusty, but also completely eaten by moths ...
                      5. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 18: 48
                        +3
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Now this is no longer scary: Budenovka is not only dusty, but also completely eaten by moths ...

                        Come on, Olgovich))

                      6. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 03: 15
                        -1
                        Luxurious picture, for more cats, plus! I think there will be no white-koshakov, for they are torn and dried.
                2. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 15: 13
                  +1
                  All the so-called "noble elite" descended from organized racketeers-protectors. I hope you know about this?
                3. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 15: 17
                  +2
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  All the so-called "noble elite" descended from organized racketeers-protectors.

                  And somewhere I spoke well of the nobles?
                4. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 15: 36
                  -2
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  And somewhere I spoke well of the nobles?
                  I don’t remember. But it seems that there is an opposition between the "elite" and the elite.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  We lived by robbery, then bish expami.

                  But the Bolsheviks were not engaged in "robbery", but "illegal financing of extremist organizations" in modern language, ie, they were ideological, in contrast to the "noble elite" - just bandyukov. I’m such a bore.
                5. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 17: 05
                  +4
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  But the Bolsheviks were not engaged in "robbery", but "illegal financing of extremist organizations"

                  no coquetry is necessary, dear - the means for this "financing" are, incl. mined exactly robbery... And, by the way, in addition to the romantic and cinematic Tiflis ex of Comrade Stalin, there were also smaller ones, not very popularized by "dusty helmets" - for example, in Vyatka, the RSDLP militant on the night of October 19-20, 1906, killed the railway workshops, carrying 400 rubles from the checkout and just in case cutting watchman. The Vyatka Bolsheviks also had more successful and fat gop-stops - for example, 17 thousand rubles - the cashier drove workers' salaries Kholunitskiy plant. But the party, of course, needs grandmothers more than the workers, about whose future happiness ... etc. And again, just in case, they slapped the guard and wounded the cashier (well, they didn't kill them!) - probably the "dogs of the bloody regime".
                  But, following your logic, the RSDLP militants are not "bandyuk" at all.
                  Well, just in case, a quote from V. Ilyich of the same 1906, when the militants were walking around the buffet, which, I believe, will put an end to this dead-end discussion:
                  Armed struggle pursues two different goals, which must be strictly distinguished from one another - namely, this struggle is aimed, firstly, at killing individuals, chiefs and subordinates of the military police service, and secondly, at confiscating funds, as from the government and from individuals. The confiscated funds partly go to the party, partly specifically for arming and preparing the uprising ...
                  (c) Guerrilla warfare

                  so, I would not smear with more oil and dump in pink feathers.
                  hi
                6. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 03: 11
                  -1
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  For example, in Vyatka, a combatant of the RSDLP on the night of October 19-20, 1906, killed the railway workshops, taking 400 rubles from the cash register and, just in case, slaughtering the guard. The Vyatka Bolsheviks also had more successful and fat gop-stops - for example, 17 thousand rubles - the cashier was carrying the salary to the workers of the Kholunitsk plant
                  A link please, or at least a source, otherwise, upon study, such abysses open up.
                7. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 25 December 2020 09: 33
                  +1
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  or at least the source

                  yes please - firsthand:
                  Sergei Legotkin a few days later gathered us again and laid out a detailed plan. The money, he found, usually stayed overnight in an iron chest bolted to the floor in the workshop chief's office. The cash desk, as a rule, was guarded by one watchman, a person we know - a spy and a master's earpiece.
                  We headed for the operation at about midnight. Everything happened as planned. In the ensuing battle, the watchman was killed. There was not much money at the box office, only about four hundred rubles. We immediately handed them over to the treasurer of the committee, G. Franceschi.

                  M.K.Lyubovnikov "At the dawn"
                  But this grandfather rubs the pioneers about his gangster youth:


                  Or do you need documents from GASPI of the Kirov region? Not enough time, you know, to satisfy your curiosity.
                8. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 10: 00
                  +1
                  Yes, you are a noble demagogue:
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  taking 400 rubles from the cash register and just in case slaughtering the watchman
                  differently, somewhat in the source:
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  In the ensuing battle, the watchman was killed
                  In the grab! And the watchman might have been armed (he might not have been, so why did he get into the fight then?) And where is "just in case"?
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  17 thousand rubles - the cashier carried the salary to the workers of the Kholunitsk plant. But the party, of course, needs grandmothers more than the workers, about whose future happiness
                  Here the cashier did not fall under the "just in case" lucky or not
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  spy and master's earpiece
                  simply. Well, the fellow citizens brought out not the workers' mutual aid fund, not the trade union treasurer, but either state funds or a private capitalist, i.e. enemy.
                9. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 25 December 2020 10: 21
                  0
                  A pitiful sight is your licking of the bandits. This is, my dear, banal criminality and nothing else. No matter how you turn yourself inside out, justifying an ordinary gop-stop with murder. I guess we have nothing to talk about.
                10. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 11: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Your licking thugs

                  The entire so-called "noble elite" descended from racketeer bandits, and only then were states created and began to be awarded by the nobility for real military or other merits. But the "nobles" began their banditry solely for their own benefit, in contrast to the members of the RSDLP.
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  No matter how you turn yourself inside out, justifying an ordinary gop-stop with murder
                  Haha, people like you do not see Russian and Soviet partisans except as bandits.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 15: 10
    -1
    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    predictable.
    You have described the ruling elite, not counting of course
    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    technocrats and intellectuals
    technocrats and intellectuals, technocrats and intellectuals just after the victory of the Bolsheviks began to pour into the ruling elite more or less massively.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 17: 22
      +3
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      You have described the ruling elite,

      laughing
      funny joke, thanks. Who cares and who needs the "ruling elite" and what, sorry, is its elitism?

      I already understood that in your opinion, the elite is a bunch of gigolos living in exile at the expense of gop-stop people)
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 03: 14
        -2
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        technocrats and intellectuals
        Let me remind you that it was you who entered the T and I. into the ruling elite of the late RI, although they were not even formally there.
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        I have already understood that in your opinion, the elite is a bunch of gigolos living in exile at the expense of gop-stop people
        You understood what you yourself invented.
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 December 2020 10: 16
    +2
    Quote: magdama
    Are you talking about the "intelligentsia"? What did Lenin call her? That's right, a prostitute.

    otherwise he named it. For this word, Vladimir Ilyich would have been banned from VO by an impressionable administrator. laughing
  • Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 24 December 2020 05: 33
    -10%
    And in the end the communists robbed their own people and became democrats smile
    As a cartoon I remember in my childhood, a young man came to kill a dragon, and the dragon said to him: Kill me and you yourself will become a dragon!
    1. apro
      apro 24 December 2020 05: 47
      +3
      Quote: Pessimist22
      the communists robbed their own people

      It is said loudly. Is this their program? And in the party charter it is written ... to rob the people?
      1. Pessimist22
        Pessimist22 24 December 2020 06: 17
        +5
        I don’t know what’s written, but they robbed, now you don’t point your finger at anyone, an oligarch or a major official from his entourage, all the members of the CPSU (former).
        1. apro
          apro 24 December 2020 06: 20
          -1
          Quote: Pessimist22
          I do not know what is written

          How do you define communists?
          What are the parameters?
          1. Pessimist22
            Pessimist22 24 December 2020 06: 31
            +3
            I do not know how under the communists they were accepted as members of the CPSU, what parameters were there anyway.
            1. apro
              apro 24 December 2020 06: 34
              +2
              Quote: Pessimist22
              I do not know what is written

              Quote: Pessimist22
              Do not know how

              And I don't know how to conduct a dialogue with you in this case ...
        2. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 08: 35
          +5
          Quote: Pessimist22
          all members of the CPSU (former)

          There is a huge difference between "members" and communists.
    2. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 06: 20
      +5
      Quote: Pessimist22
      And in the end the communists robbed their own people and became democrats
      In the film "Brother 2," a certain burly character said so bluntly, "Mi, gussky, we will not deceive you," but we directly believe this character that he is Russian. Can't you catch an analogy?
      1. Pessimist22
        Pessimist22 24 December 2020 06: 29
        -3
        If there is no water in the tap, then they were drinking? Did you understand the analogy correctly? They are to blame, but not us?
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 06: 44
          +4
          Quote: Pessimist22
          Understood the analogy correctly
          Not really. Not everyone who calls himself someone is exactly what he is. It doesn't matter if they are "guss" or "communists" by their name.
  • Sentinel-vs
    Sentinel-vs 24 December 2020 06: 32
    +5
    Quote: Crowe
    Why did the people go for the whites, what could they offer? Returning back to the bar with the gentlemen, back to the king, who needs it? Absolutely not.

    The poor, of course, supported, but the wealthy peasants did not support at all. So are the townspeople. Those who by ranks and titles, naturally, did not support the Reds, and those who were without family and tribe, and not a penny to heart, were for the Reds. Well, in general, not everything is so simple in life. Read Quiet Don, here it is very picturesquely presented as for the reds, as for the whites, as well as for those and for others. Quite vital, everything is described, complex and multifaceted. The main character changed the side of the conflict three times, fighting for some, then for others.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 24 December 2020 07: 18
      +8
      Sentinel-vs
      The poor, of course, supported, but the wealthy peasants did not support at all. So are the townspeople. Those who by ranks and titles, naturally, did not support the Reds, and those who were without family and tribe, and not a penny to their hearts, were for the Reds.
      The whole problem was that there was an overwhelming majority of those who had nothing for their souls, however, like now. The situation is almost one to one. The revelry of an oligarchy who has become sniffed, the impoverishment of the common people, everything repeats itself, only two lost wars are missing ...
      1. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 08: 38
        +3
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        only two lost wars are missing ...

        Covid can be equated to the first lost war, the state has no chance of defeating it, with "optimized" medicine.
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 13: 28
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        The whole problem was that there was an overwhelming majority of those who had nothing for their souls, however, like now.

        Judging by the elections to the Constituent Assembly - no, not a fig.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 24 December 2020 16: 07
          0
          Cherry Nine (1)
          Judging by the elections to the Constituent Assembly - no, not a fig.
          Do not tell my slippers with this fiction called "elections to the US". How many percent participated, who participated, the percentage of literate people, who at least remotely understood who they were voting for, etc.
          These are not elections and they did not really reflect anything. The people gave up their real choice during the Civil War, and it was by no means for any constituent trash, which could not do anything other than talking!
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 16: 13
            +5
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            The people gave up their real choice during the Civil War, and it was by no means for any constituent trash,

            )))
            I agree. Civil war is the highest, or rather the original form of democracy, the rest are its substitutes. The Bolsheviks won because they corresponded to the Russian people to the greatest extent in 1917.

            Only this is in no way a compliment, neither to the Bolsheviks, nor to the Russian people.
    2. kotvov
      kotvov 24 December 2020 11: 38
      +1
      Read Quiet Don, here it is very picturesquely presented as for the red, as for the white, ,,
      You know, my grandfather was a Don Cossack and he told me that they understood this then (0). As it was said, who was the first to command, for that and fought. There was a complete lack of understanding of what was happening, and everyone was tired of the war. The bulk of the Cossacks, were poor, were of course well-to-do, but they were an overwhelming minority.
      1. Sentinel-vs
        Sentinel-vs 24 December 2020 13: 30
        0
        Here Sholokhov in Quiet Don described the words of your grandfather very well. Read if you haven't. A monumental work.
        there were an overwhelming minority

        Freudian slip, as they say. The overwhelming minority :) Although the rich were fewer, they had more money.
        1. kotvov
          kotvov 24 December 2020 17: 54
          0
          Although the rich were fewer, they had more funds. ,,
          When checkers jingle, money no longer matters. I just convey what my grandfather was telling - the bulk of the Cossacks did not understand where the truth was. Under the tsar, for the faith, the tsar and the Fatherland (in fact, for the prosperity of the elect), yet the majority supported the Bolsheviks.
    3. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 14: 31
      -2
      Both those and others supported and did not. Regardless of ranks, positions and wealth. For different reasons and for different purposes.
  • north 2
    north 2 24 December 2020 07: 07
    +10
    the Bolsheviks who picked up the power thrown by the liberals in 1917 are not at all like the communists of the 1990s, if only because the communists of the nineties threw just this power. After all, had he been like Zyuganov with his own communists in 1917, then they would not have received power either. And like the Stalinists, and the Khrushchev and Brezhnev communists, they are not like the Gorbachev-Yeltsin-Zyuganov communists !!!
    As for the victory of the Red Army in the Civil War over the White Army, then multiply the number of Talbergs, Shervinsky, Skoropadsky, Bolbochans, von Schrott from Bulgakov's "Days of the Turbins" by about half a million, and you will understand that with so many of them, Civil wars are not won.
  • ecolog
    ecolog 24 December 2020 07: 08
    +2
    The West did not help the whites, because WWI had already ended and Russian blood on its fronts was no longer needed. And no one wanted to and could not fight seriously - they themselves were tired of the war in every sense.
    The Whites lost because there were no politicians of Lenin's scale among them. They wanted "as before", but 90% of the population of Russia did not want "as before" at all. And even more so to fight for it.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 24 December 2020 07: 27
      +5
      ecolog (Oleg)
      The West did not help the whites, because WWI had already ended and Russian blood on its fronts was no longer needed.
      The West did not help the whites, not because of Russian blood, but simply because it was not going to help !!!
      The Whites lost because there were no politicians of Lenin's scale among them.
      Even if they had ten Lenins, nothing would have changed with their goal-setting.
      The Whites lost because there were no politicians of Lenin's scale among them. They wanted "as before", but 90% of the population of Russia did not want "as before" at all.
      But this is one hundred percent true and this is the main reason for the defeat of White!
    2. apro
      apro 24 December 2020 07: 34
      +2
      Quote: ecolog
      The West didn't help the whites

      Yes ... and what about the intervention? Tourism?
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 24 December 2020 10: 38
        +3
        Quote: apro
        Yes ... and what about the intervention? Tourism?

        And this is not helping the whites, but the Allies' solution of their tasks. You will not say that the Japanese occupied Manchukuo to help Pu Yi? wink
        Whites during the intervention were needed solely to give the appearance of legitimacy to the presence of foreign troops in Russia.
        1. apro
          apro 24 December 2020 10: 44
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          And this is not helping the whites,

          And what is it. Having taken control of the territory with the Reds they fought. .saving the forces of the whites. do not forget the White Bohemian corps was under French command. and did so much to do. that the Japanese did well I remember from the stories of fellow countrymen. in the north it was not better ... white sufferers ... no one helped them ...
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 42
            -3
            Quote: apro
            And what is it. Taking control of the territory with the Reds fought

            This is where the Reds fought with the interventionists?
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 13: 31
          +3
          Quote: Alexey RA
          And this is not helping the whites, but the Allies' solution of their tasks.

          This is how you agree so that the task of the Entente was to establish Soviet power throughout the former territory of Ingushetia.

          By the way, in fact it happened, thank God at least the Poles, the Balts and the Finns managed to resolve the issue with the Germans while there was an opportunity. The Moldovans also corresponded to the Romanians. And English skins betrayed everyone who dealt with them.
          1. apro
            apro 24 December 2020 13: 56
            -1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            And English skins betrayed everyone who dealt with them.

            And what are you so respected about the British? After all, they are enemies of red and not white ... and with the Russians, so in general .... soyuzniki. Themselves chose. And with their dynasty so generally relatives.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 14: 06
              0
              Quote: apro
              after all, they are enemies of red and not white ... and with the Russians so in general .... soyuzniki. samyili. and with their dynasty so generally relatives.

              You see, I consider whites to be enemies of the Russian people and the rest of the peoples of Russia to a lesser extent than reds, but also enemies, of course.
              Quote: apro
              .a with theirs dynasty so generally relatives.

              It's all with everyone, some kind of swingers party.
              1. apro
                apro 24 December 2020 14: 15
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                It's all with everyone, some kind of swingers party.

                And why did they put up? I really wanted ... good.
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                You see, I consider whites to be enemies of the Russian people and the rest of the peoples of Russia to a lesser extent than reds, but also enemies, of course.

                And how can it be. To a lesser extent? They shed blood for Russia, or what?
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 14: 21
                  -2
                  Quote: apro
                  And why were you prompting?

                  Are you talking about intervention? Apparently, build communism.
                  Quote: apro
                  And how can this be. To a lesser extent?

                  The helper is more humane than the executioner.
                  Quote: apro
                  They shed blood for Russia or what?

                  I wrote "enemies of the Russian people and other peoples of Russia." Yes, they were for Russia, One and Indivisible, and that was the problem.
                  1. apro
                    apro 24 December 2020 14: 33
                    -2
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    I wrote "enemies of the Russian people and other peoples of Russia." Yes, they were for Russia, One and Indivisible, and that was the problem.

                    You seem to be walking in zigzags ... so what's the problem? if it's not a secret.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine

                    Are you talking about intervention?

                    I'm talking about an alliance with the Angles.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 14: 43
                      -1
                      Quote: apro
                      I'm talking about an alliance with the Angles.

                      The British were less afraid than the Germans, because they are further away.
                      Quote: apro
                      You zigzag like that

                      What does "zigzag" mean? Your problem is that you are confusing Russia and the Russian people, but I am not. For me, Pilsudski, Mannerheim, Skoropadsky, Krasnov were patriots, while Denikin and Kolchak tried to drown the independence of the peoples of former Russia in Russian blood. For them, "defending Russia" from Poland, Ukraine and Finland was more important than from the Bolsheviks.

                      As a result, the Reds achieved exactly what the Whites were seeking - United and Indivisible (some of them wrote about this in emigration), but, naturally, in their own hard version.
                      1. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 14: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Your problem is that you are confusing Russia and the Russian people, but I am not.

                        I'm actually Soviet.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        For me, Pilsudski, Mannerheim, Skoropadsky, Krasnov were patriots, while Denikin and Kolchak tried to drown the independence of the peoples of former Russia in Russian blood. For them, "defending Russia" from Poland, Ukraine and Finland was more important than from the Bolsheviks.

                        Cherry Nine .. You amazed me ... I have never met such an interpretation .... A shout ... A ... A ... and I run across the ceiling.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 15: 03
                        -2
                        Quote: apro
                        I have never seen such an interpretation

                        Well, you see. There is always an opportunity to learn something new for yourself.

                        And the interpretation is far from new.
                        Quote: apro
                        I'm actually Soviet.

                        It is felt. The Soviet people do not even accept the much less complicated idea that the USSR was anything but a Russian state.
                      3. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 15: 10
                        -1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The Soviet people do not even accept the much less complicated idea that the USSR was anything but a Russian state.

                        The state of the whole people ... a man is a friend of a friend, a comrade and a brother ... a man is a wolf to a man ... in a Russian state, and in any national state.
                      4. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 15: 20
                        +2
                        Quote: apro
                        man to man friend. comrades and sconces

                        Much can be said about the Soviet brotherhood, but not in a hurry.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        And the interpretation is far from new.

                        When in the early spring of 1920 I saw the headlines of French newspapers announcing the triumphal march of Pilsudski through the wheat fields of Little Russia, something inside me could not stand it, and I forgot about the fact that not even a year had passed since the day my brothers were shot. I just thought:

                        "The Poles are about to take Kiev! The eternal enemies of Russia are about to cut off the empire from its western borders!"
                        I did not dare to express myself openly, but listening to the absurd chatter of the refugees and looking at their faces, I wished the Red Army victory with all my heart.

                        It doesn't matter that I was a Grand Duke. I was a Russian officer who took an oath to defend the Fatherland from its enemies. I was the grandson of a man who threatened to plow the streets of Warsaw if the Poles once again dared to disrupt the unity of his empire.

                        Suddenly, a phrase came to mind of the same ancestor of mine seventy-two years ago. Right on the report of the "outrageous actions" of the former Russian artillery officer Bakunin, who in Saxony led crowds of German revolutionaries to storm the fortress, Emperor Nicholas I wrote in arshin letters: "Hurray for our artillerymen!"

                        The similarity of mine and its reaction struck me. I felt the same when the red commander Budyonny defeated the Pilsudski legions and drove him to Warsaw. This time, compliments were addressed to the Russian cavalry, but otherwise little has changed since my grandfather.

                        But you seem to forget, - objected my faithful secretary, - that, among other things, the victory of Budyonny means the end of the hopes of the White Army in the Crimea.

                        His fair remark did not shake my convictions. It was clear to me then, in the turbulent summer of the twentieth, as it is now, in the calm thirty-third, that in order to achieve a decisive victory over the Poles, the Soviet government did everything that any truly people's government should have done. No matter how irony it may seem that the unity of the Russian state has to be defended by the participants of the Third International, the fact remains that from that very day the Soviets have been forced to pursue a purely national policy, which is nothing more than the centuries-old policy begun by Ivan the Terrible, formalized by Peter the Great and reaching the top under Nicholas I: to defend the borders of the state at any cost and step by step to break through to the natural borders in the west! Now I am sure that my sons will also see the day when not only the absurd independence of the Baltic republics will end, but Bessarabia and Poland will be conquered by Russia, and cartographers will have to work hard on redrawing borders in the Far East.

                        "Can I, a product of the empire, a person brought up in the belief in the infallibility of the state, continue to condemn the current rulers of Russia?"

                        The answer was yes and no. Mr. Alexander Romanov shouted yes. Grand Duke Alexander said no. The first was obviously bitter. He loved his flourishing possessions in the Crimea and the Caucasus. He desperately wanted to once again enter the office in his palace in St. Petersburg, where countless bookshelves were bursting with leather-bound volumes on the history of navigation and where he could fill the evening with adventure, cherishing ancient Greek coins and remembering the years that left Fortunately for the Grand Duke, he was always separated from Mr. Romanov by a certain line. The owner of a high-profile title, he knew that he and his like were not supposed to have wide knowledge or exercise the imagination, and therefore, in resolving the current difficulty, he did not hesitate, because he simply had to rely on his collection of traditions, banal in essence, but surprisingly effective in adopting solutions. Loyalty to the homeland. An example of ancestors. Peer advice. Staying loyal to Russia and following the example of the Romanovs' ancestors, who never imagined themselves more than their empire, meant admitting that the Soviet government should be helped, not hindered by its experiments and wish success in what the Romanovs failed in.


                        There was nothing human about this geek. And, alas, V.K. Alexander Mikhailovich was in no way unique in his madness.
                      5. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 15: 36
                        -2
                        The only difficulty ... how to formulate your views ... Russian monarchist? No, it doesn't seem like ... liberal is closer.
                      6. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 15: 51
                        +1
                        Quote: apro
                        the liberal is closer.

                        In the 19th century, it was so, but now this brand has been hijacked by the social demos, even the socialists. In principle, the "Banderaites" will do just fine.
                      7. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 15: 55
                        0
                        Ie the national movement for the dominance of the Russians? Russia for the Russians on a capitalistic basis. I understand it.
                      8. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 16: 09
                        +1
                        Quote: apro
                        Russia for Russians on a capital basis. as I understand it

                        With the dominance of the Russians, of course, there are problems. In Russia That We Lost in this genre, full suckers performed. I don’t remember a single figure who somehow separated the idea of ​​a Russian national state and the pogroms. Since the so-called. Russian nationalists always have an ethnic understanding of nationality, not a civic one (a person calls himself Russian = Russian, ave. Yu.A. Dud, a German of Ukrainian origin, calls himself Russian = Russian).

                        But yes, somewhere in this direction.
                      9. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 16: 12
                        +2
                        In general, a Russian Nazi ... also nothing.
                      10. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 16: 15
                        0
                        Quote: apro
                        Russian Nazi.

                        Nazi? Far from the ideas of National Socialism. Classical liberal, if labeling is so important to you.
                      11. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 16: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        if it's so important to you to hang labels.

                        I do not hang. I classify ..
                        All the same nazizm.dlya liberal harsh.
                      12. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 16: 24
                        +1
                        Nazism presupposes just the ethnic understanding of the nation + socialism. Neither one nor the other is close to me. If your heart needs braces so much, then "Bandera", he said.
        3. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 15: 42
          0
          The Soviets are forced to pursue a purely national policy, which is nothing more than a centuries-old policy begun by Ivan the Terrible, formalized by Peter the Great and reaching the top under Nicholas I: to defend the borders of the state at any cost and make your way to the natural borders in the west step by step!

          Stretching across the continent from Stettin on the Baltic Sea to Trieste on the Adriatic Sea, the Iron Curtain descended on Europe. The capitals of the states of Central and Eastern Europe - states whose history goes back many, many centuries - are on the other side of the curtain. Warsaw and Berlin, Prague and Vienna, Budapest and Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia ...
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 24 December 2020 19: 23
        0
        Quote: apro
        The state of the whole people ... man is friend to man, comrades and brother.

        And here we will criticize you! ©
        Therefore, internationalism on the part of the oppressing or the so-called “great” nation (although great only by its violence, great only as great as the Grand Mordion) should consist not only in the observance of the formal equality of nations, but also in such inequality that would compensate the oppressing nation , a nation large, the inequality that actually develops in life. He who did not understand this, he did not understand the truly proletarian attitude to the national question, he essentially remained on the petty-bourgeois point of view, and therefore could not but slide down every minute to the bourgeois point of view.

        What is important for the proletariat? For the proletariat, it is not only important, but also essential, to ensure it with a maximum of confidence in the proletarian class struggle on the part of foreigners. What is needed for this? This requires not only formal equality. To do this, one way or another must be compensated by his conversion or his concessions to the foreigner for that distrust, that suspicion, those insults that were made to him in the historical past by the government of the "great-power" nation.
        © VIL
        That is, man to man friend, comrade and brother exactly as long as there are no Russians in this "circle of brothers". For them, there is only one option for life in a nationwide state according to the version of the CPSU (b) - pay and repent.
      3. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 22: 44
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        For this it is necessary to compensate, in one way or another, with your conversion or with your concessions to a foreigner, that mistrust, that suspicion, those insults that were inflicted on him in the historical past by the government of the "great-power" nation.

        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Now it is called "luting" and "predominantly peaceful protest". So people were just ahead of their time.

        Well, he said the same. So Ilyich writes about critical racial theory, positive discrimination and forced sabotage. All that, to which a little bit of Western political thought came a hundred years later. Wonder man, just a miracle.

        I hope President Harris will finally deal with the executions of the bourgeoisie.
      4. apro
        apro 25 December 2020 03: 33
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        For this it is necessary to compensate, in one way or another, with your conversion or with your concessions to a foreigner, that mistrust, that suspicion, those insults that were inflicted on him in the historical past by the government of the "great-power" nation.

        I do not see the word repentance here. It is not possible to build a nation-wide state on the basis of infringement of rights on a national basis. Not to infringe on someone's rights. It is possible only by creating a supranational ideology. What did the Reds do?
        the merger of all nations into one unification of the Soviet people. but the path is not easy. but there is no other way to unite the country in the multinational diversity. the general civilizational attitudes of the communists erased national differences. the study of the Russian language erased the linguistic barriers. the common nationality equalized the material level.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 24 December 2020 19: 17
    0
    Quote: apro
    And what are you so respected about the British? After all, they are enemies of red and not white ...

    You tell Denikin this, from whom the British demanded not to interfere with the occupation of the Black Sea coast of the Caucasus by Georgians almost to Novorossiysk. smile And when the whites decided to clear the lands of Russia from the invaders, they were immediately threatened to cut off supplies.
    1. apro
      apro 25 December 2020 03: 37
      0
      Quote: Alexey RA
      You tell Denikin this, from whom the British demanded not to interfere with the Georgian occupation of the Black Sea coast of the Caucasus almost to Novorossiysk

      And what did he think.all for free? Tanks.planes with crews.weapons? First win and then swing the right ... sufferer ..
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 24 December 2020 19: 08
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    This is how you agree so that the task of the Entente was to establish Soviet power throughout the former territory of Ingushetia.

    By the way, in fact it happened, thank God at least the Poles, the Balts and the Finns managed to resolve the issue with the Germans while there was an opportunity. The Moldovans also corresponded to the Romanians. And English skins betrayed everyone who dealt with them.

    Oh yes ... the story of the Sovietization of Georgia is an excellent example of this. When Denikin decided to liberate the lands of Russia seized by the Georgians, the British defended the Georgians with their breasts, demanding that the Whites stop the offensive and threatening to cut off supplies. As soon as the Whites were replaced by the Reds, the limes immediately told the Georgians "figure it out yourself."
    So the version the task of the Entente was to establish Soviet power throughout the former territory of Ingushetia looks very appetizing. smile
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 23: 05
      +1
      Quote: Alexey RA
      So the version of the task of the Entente was to establish Soviet power throughout the former territory of Ingushetia looks very appetizing

      So you can't argue against the truth.

      The British were in time everywhere. In the South, they "helped" Denikin, at the same time strangled the UPR, established absolutely wonderful order in Transcaucasia, where they had a Versailles mandate, defended the KF SSR from Mannerheim (together with the Americans) and gave a shortcut to Pilsudski (although they did not really succeed with Pilsudski, this , even if for a while, saved millions of people). The French in the same style helped Krasnov and right finished off Kolchak. Kolchak was destroyed by the Entente, and not at all by the Soviet government, and not even by the Czechoslovakians, on whom it has recently been customary to hang this dog. Well, the activity of the French in Odessa is a complete extravaganza, you rarely see this. In the end, the Americans joined in, who did not like the Japanese so much that they surrendered the entire Far East to the Bolsheviks, if only the narrow-eyed would not break off. Is there a little bit of Russia left in Harbin? So Roosevelt surrendered Harbin.

      Therefore, I write constantly that I agree with Samsonov. The Russian person can and should hate the Anglo-Saxons. It was the Anglo-Saxons and the French who helped to give birth to the red Moloch (and not at all the German General Staff, which is usually talked about) (by the way, who invented Marxism?). The activities of the Entente in WWI are much less known than Kilhol, when the Allies literally thrust with pitchforks Russians, millions of Russians into the mouth of the cannibal, but it was the Versailles madness that was decisive, the rest was just a consequence.
  • RUSS
    RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 39
    -3
    Quote: apro
    Yes ... and what about the intervention? Tourism?

    The invaders did not enter into battles with the Red Army
    1. apro
      apro 25 December 2020 03: 44
      0
      I don’t even know what to say Russian. My grandfather fought in civil war with both the Whites and the Cossacks and the Japanese. The Yapas were the most cruel opponents. The punitive operations of the Yap against the partisans were a scorched earth. And the Americans are just marauders ...
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 December 2020 11: 18
      +1
      Quote: RUSS
      The invaders did not enter into battles with the Red Army

      In the North, they entered. And they fought there seriously, up to the use of chemical weapons.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 24 December 2020 08: 01
    +5
    In 1991, the white project won the day ... Nationalists on the outskirts, nationalists inside ..
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 45
      -1
      Quote: parusnik
      In 1991, the white project won.

      In 1991, it was not the white project that won, but the project of the Komsomol oligarchs
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 24 December 2020 08: 11
    +8
    The author correctly recalled that the tsar was not overthrown by the Bolsheviks. And it should be recalled that the Synod supported the tsar's abdication from the throne. But for some reason no one raises the question, what would have happened if such a force as the Bolsheviks would not have existed. For Russia it was the Bolsheviks played the role of Minin and Pozharsky.
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 24 December 2020 12: 56
      0
      Quote: nikvic46
      The author correctly recalled that the tsar was not overthrown by the Bolsheviks.

      And so are they. Those who shouted for twenty years - "Down with the autocracy" and corrupted the people, too, was involved in the overthrow.
      Quote: nikvic46
      And it should be recalled that the Synod supported the Tsar's abdication from the throne

      Lying.
      Quote: nikvic46
      But for some reason, no one raises the question, but what would have happened if there would not have been such a force as the Bolsheviks

      We would have done it quietly and calmly. They then established a constitutional monarchy of some kind and would continue to live peacefully without multi-million dollar sacrifices. They would have fattened themselves on the Russo-Balts.
      No world wars and collectivizations.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 13: 33
        0
        Quote: Junger
        They would have fattened themselves on the Russo-Balts.

        They would drink, as they say, Bavarian.
        1. Jünger
          Jünger 24 December 2020 13: 35
          +1
          Don't go to the fortuneteller. They would drink the Siberian crown according to a racially correct recipe. ))
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 24 December 2020 19: 31
        0
        Quote: Junger
        We would have done it quietly and calmly. They then established a constitutional monarchy of some kind and would continue to live peacefully without multi-million dollar sacrifices.

        And the first thing the new government would have stumbled upon would be the land issue.
        They tried to follow an evolutionary path in Ukraine. Even the Germans did not help.
        Only in November of the eighteenth year, when the cannons began to hum near the City, did smart people, including Vasilisa, realize that the peasants hated this very gentleman hetman like a mad dog - and peasant thoughts that no such gentlemanly bastard reform was needed, but that eternal, long-awaited peasant reform is needed:
        - All the land to the peasants.
        - Each one hundred dessiatines.
        - That there were no landowners and no spirit.
        - And so that for every one hundred dessiatines, faithful stamped paper with a seal - into an eternal, hereditary possession, from grandfather to father, from father to son, to grandson, and so on.
        - So that no punks from the City come to demand bread. Peasant bread, we will not give it to anyone, that we ourselves will not eat it, we will bury it in the ground.
        - To bring kerosene from the City.

        In addition to all this, the villages had weapons and people who knew how to use them. Actually, if we replace "Ukraine" with "Russia" in Bulgakov's text, this will be a description of a Russian village in 1918.
        There were tens of thousands of people who returned from the war and knew how to shoot ... - And the officers themselves learned by order of their superiors! Hundreds of thousands of rifles, buried in the ground, hidden in cloons and komoros and not surrendered, despite the prompt military field German courts, flogging with ramrods and shooting with shrapnel, millions of cartridges in the same land and three-inch guns in every fifth village and machine guns in every second village, in every town there are ammunition warehouses, seichhauses with greatcoats and fur hats. seminarians who, by the will of fate, became ensigns, hefty sons of beekeepers, staff captains with Ukrainian surnames ...

        Quote: Junger
        They would have fattened themselves on the Russo-Balts.

        Yeah - one would drive, and ten thousand would quietly hate him. smile
        Although ... no one would go to "RB" - would gobble up his foreign competitors with their volumes and prices. Or the Ryabushinskys would have hurried in advance.
    2. RUSS
      RUSS 24 December 2020 20: 50
      -1
      Quote: nikvic46
      And it should be recalled that the Synod supported the Tsar's abdication from the throne

      The Church needed to restore the Patriarchate, since until 1917 the Tsar was the head of the Church, for this the priests later "paid off" in full.


      Quote: nikvic46
      But for some reason no one is raising the question, what would have happened if there were no such force as the Bolsheviks. For Russia, it would have been a collapse.

      Where does this conclusion come from? If kabs and kabs
      1. Jünger
        Jünger 24 December 2020 21: 47
        +1
        Quote: RUSS
        The Church needed to restore the Patriarchate

        Yes, the Synod did not support the abdication - what a spiritual lie? smile I just reacted calmly to this fact, as it should be.
        The church is generally purple, where is what power.
  • Ruby
    Ruby 24 December 2020 08: 39
    +10
    As long as the communists were ready to go to the machine guns and send their sons to the front, and not to Western schools and colleges, they were the elite. And when they began to fatten and shoot the pigs in Zavidovo, their fate was a foregone conclusion.
    If the elite is unable to defend its power, with a probability of one, it will lose it. It's just a matter of time.
  • Unknown
    Unknown 24 December 2020 09: 51
    +3
    The civil war began from the outskirts of R.I., there they began to grow as
    mushrooms, all sorts of national committees, heading for secession from Russia. .....
    [thumb] https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2020-12 / 1608789605_i1.jpg [/ thumb]
    ... And no Constituent Assembly was of any importance for them. The old noble Russia was obliged to lose. The genetic memory of the peasantry, who still remembered serfdom, and everything connected with it, like the sale of peasants, could easily lose at cards, in recruits, family separation. And the cases when young girls were used against their will in the role of mistresses and kept women abound were described by contemporaries, Kuprin, Dostoevsky, Gorky. All this was not in vain. Officers in R.I., the common people have always associated with the nobility, without going into details. Kornilov, Denikin, even Kolchak, for the most part, had their officers. There was no chance of winning. Close cooperation with the Entente, with all sorts of borderline limitrophes, also did not bring popularity. Part of the old officer corps and all wartime officers supported the Bolsheviks. Big capital in R.I. only in its infancy and did not provide significant financial support to the White movement, preferring to hit the road abroad. Only the Bolsheviks had a program of action, and don't say party discipline. We must not forget the ideological Bolsheviks who are ready to give not only someone else's life, but also theirs for ideals. A striking character, Makar Nagulnov at Sholokhov. It can be said simply, the Bolsheviks had a future, and history has confirmed this. Tsarist Russia is a thing of the past.
  • Growlers
    Growlers 24 December 2020 10: 51
    +5
    "On the advice of the General Staff, starting in July 1919, England provided him (Denikin) with the main aid, and at least 250 thousand rifles, 200 cannons, 30 tanks and huge stocks of weapons and shells were sent through the Dardanelles and the Black Sea to Novorossiysk Several hundred British army officers and volunteers as advisers, instructors, warehouse keepers and even a few aviators helped organize Denikin's armies.
    It would be a mistake to think that throughout this whole year we fought on the fronts for the cause of the Russians hostile to the Bolsheviks. On the contrary, the Russian White Guards fought for our cause. This truth will become unpleasantly sensitive from the moment the white armies are destroyed and the Bolsheviks establish their rule throughout the vast Russian Empire. "
    Winston Churchill
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 24 December 2020 11: 09
    +4
    Any elite, if not in its ranks
    a constant influx of fresh blood from the bottom, sooner or later stiffens and begins to soar in purely their own ideas about the situation in the country as a whole. The same classics of Russian literature in many ways wrote about their purely personal or far-fetched problems than reflecting reality.
    Why was the tsar demolished - well, he was so tired of throwing himself with the models of the country's development and the bourgeoisie was already tired of this.
    Intervention, well, who refuses to have something from a neighbor when he is busy with the devil knows what? Europe has always followed this principle.
    Could the bourgeois create something by taking power? Well, if at first we agreed among ourselves on the vector and steps for the implementation of our programs, maybe something would come out. Or maybe not, it doesn't matter anymore.
    At that time, the Bolsheviks did the most elaborately what was required for their coming and taking power. And their ideas impressed the population more than go to die for the next estate or bruliks for the next passion of the master.
  • RUSS
    RUSS 24 December 2020 19: 57
    0
    Another crap from Samsonov
  • dust31
    dust31 24 December 2020 20: 11
    0
    Nicholas II was opposed by the elite of the Russian Empire - the grand dukes and aristocrats, generals and church hierarchs, industrialists and bankers, politicians and public figures, commercial capital and the liberal intelligentsia.
    this is the most difficult thing to understand for those brought up in the USSR. Judas' betrayal, which resulted in punishment for themselves, who had previously made a career in the same system, and the catastrophic degradation of the state with all institutions, which was indicated by the Second World War, with "great" generals. I read the other day about the Sinyavinsky heights (after the video from the search engines) - my heart is bleeding.
  • Erik
    Erik 24 December 2020 21: 10
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: Crowe
    And why did the people go for the whites, what could they offer? Returning back to the bar with the gentlemen, back to the king, who needs it?

    If only they took a little trouble to familiarize themselves with the program objectives Russian state , i.e. white.

    And their ONLY goal was the RETURN OF POWER TO THE PEOPLE. The power that the people chose for themselves in the freest elections in the world to the US, and chose by no means the Bolsheviks.

    This power, stolen brazenly, treacherously and criminally by the Bolsheviks, was what the whites wanted to return to the PEOPLE by convening a new nationwide Constituent Assembly and agreed to make ANY of its decisions - about the system, land, power, country structure, etc. More and more NO goals.

    What "bar, what kind of kings", what kind of childish babble of mossy propaganda? belay

    Quote: Crowe
    An end to the war, land for the peasants, factories for the workers, power to the Soviets.

    Not fulfilled NOTHING: the civil massacre unleashed by the seizure of power by the Bolsheviks continued for four more years, with the number of victims SIX times higher than those of WWI.

    Such is the struggle "for peace"!

    The peasants' land was not only taken away for collective farms, but also the implements of labor on it and livestock, and attached to the ground, overlapping rent : unthinkable taxes on chickens, trees, etc., corvee-almost free hard labor on collective farms.

    Workers' control was also immediately abolished.

    Power was at the top of the party, the so-called. the Soviets did not decide anything, silently stamping out its decisions, and their "elections" were turned into a shameful farce. Power I was afraid of elections like fire and nightmares, and did not trust the people at all
    Quote: Crowe
    I think the main reason why the Reds won

    The Reds completely lost: the result of their rule: the borders of the 17th century and the extinction of the Russian people, the uncompetitive remaining economy, coupons for cowards and a total deficit for everything and disbelief in nothing: no one stood up for them in 1991.

    And over Russia the Russian national banner of the Russian State flies.

    PS article-minus: nothing new, again matrices, deep peoples, communities, etc.

    How are things in the camp of the fascists?
  • sniperino
    sniperino 24 December 2020 22: 45
    0
    it was not they who overthrew, but the predecessors of the current liberals, the bourgeois democrats.
    The current liberals have never been close to democracy. But there are enough Trotskyists, anarcho-syndicalists in this crowd. But communism is closer to them, therefore their anti-Putin rhetoric here coincides with the Communist Party of the Russian Federation word for word. Together again, close again ...
  • New Year day
    New Year day 25 December 2020 01: 43
    +1
    You read about the past century and it is as if the present day is being described;
    The elite in Russia had capital and power, but did not have power. The Februaryists strove to complete the westernization of Russia, to make it a part of Western Europe. To turn Russia into "sweet" Holland, France or England.

    Liberal democratic forces, supporters of the "market" (capitalism) found themselves at a broken trough.

    The Russian communists proposed a project that largely corresponded to the ideals of the Russian community. Priority of truth and social justice.

    So everything is ahead
  • New Year day
    New Year day 25 December 2020 02: 18
    +1
    Why did the White Army lose to the Red Army?

    The destruction of any empire begins from the moment when its ordinary citizen understands it, the empire, its uselessness.
    It begins with the desacralization of the institution of the supreme power, in our case the Tsar. The behavior of the royal family and its closest entourage provided good food for newspapers, rumors, etc. Along with the dying economy, this undermined the foundations of power - autocracy. It was for this reason that the nobles took down the king. Did they speak on behalf of the people? - Not fully. Having seized power in the February revolution, the elite began to fight for seats and were unable to work out a general concept of Russia's development. The collapse of the control system, sabotage led to the discrediting of Uch. meetings. Looking at this, both the power of the tsar and the bourgeoisie became disgusting to the man in the street. Due to the loss of support by the population and troops, the Bolsheviks intercepted / raised the power lying on the street.
    Then the civil war began. The "Reds" preached popular aspirations - peace, land, freedom. By that time, the "White" ones had already been partially discredited by both previous decisions and subsequent ones. Both sides adhered to the same means in achieving their goals. But if the Red Terror in the Civil War concerned the estates, which was perceived by the common man as "good", then after the victory - already to the common man himself. But the war had already been won. The Reds were able to present the people with the idea of ​​universal equality and brotherhood, and its exploitation became visible only years later. This made it possible to provide a mobilization reserve for the Red Army at that time.
  • 7,62x54
    7,62x54 25 December 2020 08: 59
    +1
    Because of such articles, the author was not nominated for "Author of the Year". Writes inconveniently, leads to confusion.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 25 December 2020 15: 12
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    WHO and WHAT gave the right to you and the Reds to speak on behalf of the people?
    Nobody and nothing; they lost all elections.

    Elections? Through the electors? Democracy is possible only in a society of educated people, and not just literate people, but with general knowledge and culture, otherwise democracy turns into the power of cattle ... The consciousness of the peasantry was at zero, the government gave them land for free, but they did not share bread with the Red Army wanted, my hut is on the edge, I don't know anything. The primary task of the Soviet government was the upbringing and education of a civil society through literacy and a cultural revolution ... even now our elections are not particularly democratic, but simply zombified people choose those who cannot be allowed into power. Once again, remember the episode from the movie "Kings and Cabbage", when the poor and illiterate residents of Anchuria chose the president from two candidates, they were simply torn between the promises of the candidates, one of them promised a gramophone to each house, and the other a shower.
    And the Red Army won because of many factors, it is the middle peasant on the side of the Bolsheviks and the most educated part of the officers and generals of the Russian army, who joined the ranks of the Red Army, the scientific and creative intelligentsia who supported the new government.
  • mister-red
    mister-red 25 December 2020 20: 15
    0
    Therefore, the Februaryists overthrew Nicholas II in February 1917, although only about six months remained until the victory over the German Empire.

    1,5 years
  • Avior
    Avior 25 December 2020 21: 25
    +1
    I pecked at the headline, but from the first sentence it became clear that there was nothing sensible to read
    After the collapse of the USSR, a myth was created that the tsarist regime and autocracy were destroyed by the "commissars", the Bolsheviks.

    Ay, the author, this was constantly emphasized BEFORE the collapse of the USSR in the Soviet school and in general at every step in the USSR. The Union was proud of this.
    And as for the fact that the Entente tried to deprive the Russian Empire of the consequences of Germany's loss in the war, the author needs to refer to the text of the Versailles agreement, which clearly states that Russia, as the winner country, has the right to receive indemnities from Germany. And at the same time, the shameful Brest Peace, concluded by the Bolsheviks, was canceled
  • Iskazi
    Iskazi 25 December 2020 21: 33
    0
    of course the Whites could not win --- because they lost ..., the peasantry, the higher officers, the White leadership turned out to be mediocre losers ..., in addition, the Entente helped both, but the author correctly noted that nationalism was the main danger, in the end, the USSR lost to him ..., worthy material ...,
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 26 December 2020 17: 59
      0
      Quote: Iskazi
      of course the Whites could not win --- because they lost ..., the peasantry, the higher officers, the White leadership turned out to be mediocre losers ..., in addition, the Entente helped both, but the author correctly noted that nationalism was the main danger, in the end, the USSR lost to him ..., worthy material ...,

      The USSR lost nothing, its citizens lost, voluntarily abandoning it in favor of something that they themselves still did not understand.
      1. Iskazi
        Iskazi 26 December 2020 20: 18
        0
        citizens are also different, some won, others did not ..., and the USSR disappeared ...,
  • Ulysses
    Ulysses 25 December 2020 22: 13
    -2
    Quote: Konnick
    Democracy is possible only in a society of educated people, and not just literate people, but with general knowledge and culture, otherwise democracy turns into the power of cattle.

    And then there was August 1991.
    "Educated, literate, cultured Soviet people sold Soviet democracy for torn jeans and chimeric" freedom. "

    PS This is what such abstruse disputes that have nothing to do with real life are worth here.
  • Doliva63
    Doliva63 26 December 2020 17: 52
    0
    Quote: Hyperion
    Quote: Doliva63
    Well, God won't give anything.

    Yes, about God, this is so ... a well-established idiom. hi

    Yes, I understand, sorry for the nitpicking hi
  • Alexander Koshkin
    Alexander Koshkin 10 January 2021 17: 26
    0
    Why wishful thinking? The Reds won thanks to general mobilization, while the White Army was Volunteer!
    But in order to force the called-up peasants to fight, Trotsky used decimation, that is, the execution of every tenth in front of the formation before being sent to the trenches. This is not his invention. The Romans used decimation, but only as a punishment for the guilty units on the battlefield. Trotsky's know-how lay in preventive decimation!
    The result was so impressive that Stalin used this technique, but this time to strengthen the political system. The Great Terror of the Thirties in the disorder brought down from the regional committee, this is the equivalent of the Trotskyist decimation. All strata, without exception, were subject to repression, including the workers. The political victory was even more impressive than the October Revolution!
  • bubla5
    bubla5 14 January 2021 16: 27
    +1
    How could a bunch of annoying scoundrels of the regime defeat an entire country that was tired of it
  • Dmitry_7,
    Dmitry_7, 2 February 2021 10: 51
    0
    Cool article to include in a history textbook.
  • Givi_49
    Givi_49 19 February 2021 10: 19
    0
    The army that is ready to die wins. The white army was clearly not ready to die.
  • loaln
    loaln 19 February 2021 10: 36
    0
    It's nothing.
    The Russian people have shown that they want to disappear themselves.
    Well, this is necessary so that children and grandchildren betray their grandfathers and fathers and put Russia under the feet of the West.
    Now is the transition period of the chameleon rulers.
    Their main task is to bring to the grave the carriers of a dying ethnic group, rewrite history once again, and raise generations of slaves.
    The psychology of betrayal was even more powerful than the psychology of ACQUISITION.
    Although what am I talking about?
    Remember ancient Russia, where the princes slaughtered each other, betrayed Russia to the Mongol-Tatars, Germans, Scandinavians, Poles, etc.
    They exalted fratricides and simply murderers who unleashed genocide of their own people for the sake of admiration for Byzantium.
    And so endlessly. To the present day.
    Such an ethnos is unworthy of either its ancestors or any future other than servility in front of a money bag.
    Squalor!
    Although he does not correspond to this epithet.
    For him, this is way too HIGHLY.
  • Borka
    Borka 24 February 2021 12: 01
    0
    The White Army represented the interests of the German dynasty, which pretended to be the Russian Romanov dynasty. The Germans, having broken through to the throne after Peter the Great, enslaved the Russian people in the literal sense, organizing the cruel exploitation and the real slave trade of the Russian people, separating even families and children from their parents.
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 27 February 2021 19: 11
    +1
    The white idea is what was implemented in 91. It's still sour. We do not know whether we will get out of there. There is a layer of the super-rich and a huge mass of the super-poor. What a social world one appearance.
  • victor_5
    victor_5 3 March 2021 12: 13
    +1
    History repeats itself. Today the same "White Guards" are in power. And the result of their revenge may be the collapse of Russia.