Armenian Prime Minister candidate: Defeat could have been avoided

Armenia continues to actively discuss what happened during the 44 days of the war in Nagorno-Karabakh.

At the same time, many discussions of such a plan look rather strange - if only because story does not tolerate the subjunctive mood.

One of those who nevertheless decided to reflect on another scenario for the development of events in Karabakh is a person who is being considered as a candidate for the prime minister of Armenia. This is Vazgen Manukyan, representing the political forces with the loud name “Movement to Save the Motherland”.

According to Manukyan, "defeat could have been avoided."

Vazgen Manukyan:

This is a truly bitter defeat. Both war and defeat could have been avoided with the right policy. But the authorities dragged the country into this war.

Manukyan states that the current government paid no attention to the army for over 2 years:

If they paid attention to the army, then there would be no defeat. Now there is an agreement with Azerbaijan, which we cannot violate.

The Armenian politician stressed that Pashinyan announced the signing of an agreement allegedly between Artsakh and Azerbaijan.

Vazgen Manukyan:

Then it is generally not clear what the territory of Armenia has to do with the issues of the Meghri road.

We are talking about the so-called Meghri corridor (in the south of Armenia) of communication between the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic and the rest of Azerbaijan. On the basis of the agreement, Azerbaijani citizens will be able to freely carry out transit along such a corridor, which causes rejection of many Armenian politicians.

Comments

[svp67]

Armenian Prime Minister candidate: Defeat could have been avoided

Without condition, but now we need to draw the right conclusions from this defeat, including Russia

[ultra]

What is this for?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: ultra

What is this for?

I don't catch up either, everything is with the guy, "the FSB, the Armenians in Karabakh, and" Lyokha Novichek "are the nephew of Zhenya's grandmother, nicknamed" God's dandelion ".

[Vladimir Mashkov]

Manukyan absolutely right: both war and defeat could have been avoided. But neither paying due attention to the army and means, nor preparing good defensive lines, nor good combat training are a guarantee against one-on-one defeat with Azerbaijan in the absence of a policy. And Pashinyan's policy from the very beginning was exactly this: he cheated, played tricks, flirted with Russia, enticing preferences from this cooperation, and he himself was oriented toward the West, collaborated with Soros, waiting for a convenient moment for a dash to the West. Naturally, Russia was rather cool about all this. And Pashinyan got carried away with his cunning game, launched the army. In addition, he behaved insolently with Azerbaijan and provoked it. And Azerbaijan was always preparing for victorious war, carefully watching Pashinyan. At the right moment he hit - and won!
Both Pashinyan and his entire cunning policy are remarkably characterized by the words once said by the Duke of La Rochefoucauld: "There is no more stupid people than those who consider themselves smarter than everyone."

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Vladimir Mashkov

And Pashinyan got carried away with his cunning game, launched the army. In addition, he behaved insolently with Azerbaijan and provoked it.

He just strictly followed the points of the "checklist" issued by the owner. And at the owner's "you will not play clever games", quickly as a mangy cat, they will be thrown out for the shkiryatnik.

[Leeds]

If grandma had

[Alex Justice]

Reconnaissance among the Armenians below the belt. They missed the preparation for war.

[Essex62]

Pashinyan fulfilled his plan - he removed from the road the Karabakh clan standing across his program of action (perhaps inspired by Soros). What actually happened? Yerevan is in place, Pashinyan is in place and steers, Putin has acquired another headache (or has acquired another foreign policy toy). Aliyev and the Sultan are the winners. Everyone is happy. Only the Karabakh Armenians and the Russian budget suck.

[Cron]

In Russia, Navalny's investigation came out

Not Navalny's investigation, but his curators, who are preparing everything for him. This string-bearer is only able to lay out ducks on the table and make faces of his young audience

[Avior]

I also think that it was not he who conducted the investigation - it looks too professional, this is impossible for a non-professional. The fact that the billing of negotiations received - and then the question is how.
And all the connections were to be traced between the negotiators, trips by different types of transport and compared - a large group of professionals worked.
Let's see which of this is refuted, there the majority is refuted by documentary evidence, if something is invented.

[Imobile]

received billing bills - and then the question is how.

Yarovaya's law to help. They also used this database in previous investigations.

[Alex777]

Soloviev claimed that the dad of Navalny's wife is an FSB general.
But I don't understand what the Armenians and Navalny's "investigation" have to do with it.

[Avior]

Google does not find any mention of FSB General Boris Abrosimov.
And Soloviev, you yourself understand what source.

[Alex777]

What I don't find in Google, I search in Yandex and often find.
For example, mirrors of your favorite movie sites.
He doesn't have to have that last name.
But this would explain why Navalny is low-sink.
I'm not at all interested in Navalny.
Therefore, I did not check Solovyov's information in this part.
Lurie's investigations did not raise any questions in my mind before.
PS Boris Borisovich Abrosimov is his name. Sobchak claims to be from the KGB. On the first page, Google came across.

[Avior]

Sobchak said that her father was from a family of KGB officers.

"Come from a family of hereditary KGB agents"

Sobchak, of course, may have such information, I admit, but she did not say anything about the FSB. and she is the only source that can be taken into account.
The FSB general and "a native of a family of hereditary KGB agents" are far from the same thing, you must agree
and the information is so-so. and no more, just gossip and fantasies to the best of the imagination of the authors. As in the link you gave, these are the usual fantasies of the writer.

[Alex777]

Navalny is not stupid to me. Sorry.

[Avior]

And where did they get the idea that Boris Borisovich?
Navalny himself says that he is Boris Alexandrovich.

this is at least some kind of document.
and everything else on the Internet is just fantasy. and the phrase Sobchak, which can be understood in different ways.

[Alex777]

https://www.kleo.ru/items/bomond/biografiya-yulii-navalnoy.shtml
For personal reasons, I know what the absence of a biography means.

[Avior]

Key phrase from this link

This is anecdotal evidence, perhaps just rumors: ...

I think there is no point in discussing this topic, except for rumors about it there is still nothing.

[Alex777]

And that's true. The general personally heard the word from Solovyov on the radio.

[Alex777]

Here, especially for you. It’s very strange that you didn’t find it.
There is enough of this.
https://19rus.info/index.php/mir-v-pautine/item/135944-israel-shamir-o-nesmertelnykh-yadakh-putina-i-navalnom-kak-agente-fsb

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Avior

I also think that it was not he who conducted the investigation - it looks too professional, this is impossible for a non-professional.

True, what kind of experts are there, and even low-profile politicians, and, frankly, from a country equal to the Smolensk or Tver regions.
And who is the expert - David Edgarovich Tonoyan, b. December 27, 1967, Ust-Kamenogorsk) - Armenian statesman and politician. Former Minister of Defense of Armenia (from May 10, 2018 to November 20, 2020)
Passed military service ranks in the Soviet army from 1986 to 1988.
Next - the commander of the Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army, Lieutenant General Mikael Arzumanyan - an outstanding personality. In 1991-1992, he served as a volunteer in the company of the legendary Ashot Gulyan ("The Shard"). 1992-1995 was at first deputy company commander, battalion commander, battalion commander, regiment commander. In 1995-1999 he commanded a separate reconnaissance battalion.
He had no military education. And suddenly he became a student of the Military Academy of the Russian Ministry of Defense, and then a general. Specialists, experts, generals, but who will fight and win.
But with Azerbaijan is a completely different story.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Cron

Not Navalny's investigation, but his curators, who are preparing everything for him.

Although the article is not about Lyotsik (comment deleted), the owner's "Checklist" is the same for Lyokha Novichk, Pashinyan, Tikhanovskaya and Sandu. Failure to comply with any point is severely punished.

[Vadim Golubkov]

Aren't you funny yourself? They poisoned Navalny with a chemical warfare agent, but he has nothing to do with it, what kind of toxic agent is this and even a military one? This is what happened to a man who only swallowed a little bit of Novichok vapor ... In May 1987, chemist Andrei Zheleznyakov was poisoned when an active substance leaked into the air during tests of substance A-232 (Novichok at GosNIIOChT in Moscow. Zheleznyakov was injected with an antidote, after which the chief told him to go home. On the way home his condition began to deteriorate, he began to have vivid hallucinations. After that he lost consciousness and was taken to the Sklifosovsky Institute. The KGB officers who arrived there took from the doctor of the emergency department a non-disclosure and said that Zheleznyakov “ate bad sausages.” Doctors injected Zheleznyakov with atropine, which saved his life.

Zheleznyakov regained consciousness only ten days later and lay in intensive care for eight days after that. Despite treatment, he developed toxic hepatitis, which later developed into cirrhosis of the liver, he began to lose the ability to walk, developed weak hands, inability to read and concentrate, epilepsy, and depression. After a few months, his condition improved, but overall he was never able to recover: liver disease, weakness, epileptic seizures and trigeminal neuritis continued to haunt him. He died of a stroke in 1993.

[Avior]

Anything can happen. Read about the poisoning with military poisonous sarin in the Tokyo subway in 1995 - how many were poisoned and how many died.

[Vadim Golubkov]

The chemical warfare agent is designed to incapacitate not one person on the battlefield, but a large number of soldiers, in Tokyo this happened, mass poisoning of varying severity and with a lethal outcome. A newcomer like from the same galaxy. And to eliminate one person there are other ways and other poisons, individual so to speak.

[Avior]

in Tokyo, several thousand people were poisoned, only three dozen of them died.
so that different lethality happens.

[Vadim Golubkov]

That's right, Zorin is a weapon of mass destruction, like the Novice, so if you poison one person with a weapon of mass destruction, then you will definitely poison others. In the case of Navalny, many more people should have been poisoned, however, as with the Skripals.

[Avior]

It all depends on the dose received

[Vadim Golubkov]

And besides weapons of mass destruction, there are no other substances and methods in the bins, and what is this dose that does not kill? How to select and calculate this dose from chemical weapons of mass destruction for one person in order to kill him and so that others do not poison themselves? Of course, I am an amateur, but it seems to me quite difficult, it is easier to stage an attack by hooligans, "an umbrella injection with some kind of medicine" from which a person dies within a short time of minutes, such was the case in Moscow ... for apartments "... The day before, the Moscow Investigative Committee announced the initiation of a criminal case into the murder of a woman in Moscow with an injection of an unknown drug. The pensioner was attacked in her entrance by two unknown persons, one of whom was wearing a mask with a false mustache and glasses. They injected an unknown drug into the woman's thigh and then fled. The woman managed to inform her neighbor about this, but soon died.

[Avior]

I think I wrote to you about the lethality of chemical warfare agents. I hope you agree, we have clarified this issue.
Why one or another poison is chosen in case of poisoning is a separate question. there are many different factors.

[Imobile]

So the video has all the answers. It's all about Putin, for whom everything falls apart and nothing in the country works even to the dose.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Vadim Golubkov

They poisoned Navalny with a combat poisonous substance, and he has nothing to do with it, what kind of poisonous substance is this, and even a military one?

I won't say much. Tried Newbie three times. The sensations and expert opinion are as follows - "Better than our moonshine from sugar, but worse than from potatoes." Trust me people!

Conclusion - Lyokh cannot hold a glass, not our person, ours do not fall into coma from a liter, and even more so they do not end up in German hospitals. Here a neighbor blew 1,5 and then a week later oklemalsya (half a bottle of it took, the toad is still pressing).

[Avior]

Have you watched this new video?
There are many things that can be checked.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Avior

Have you watched this new video?
There are many things that can be checked.

Of course I can check it, but it's boring to watch videos, and everyone in YouTube only makes money, but they drive "bullshit" - I don't look, I read books of smart people better. (Yes, I'll take a glass, as now, after righteous labors).

[svp67]

Quote: Imobile

In Russia, Navalny's investigation came out,

That's not written correctly. Another OPUS written

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: svp67

Armenian Prime Minister candidate: Defeat could have been avoided

Without condition, but now we need to draw the right conclusions from this defeat, including Russia

And I believe that it was not defeat that could have been avoided, but war.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And I believe that it was not defeat that could have been avoided, but war.

There is no war of no one, one of the two "Either on a shield or under a shield."

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

There is no war of no one, one of the two "Either on a shield or under a shield."

Do you understand what you said?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Do you understand what you said?

And what is incomprehensible, Azerbaijan is "on the shield" and Armenia is "under the shield".

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

And what is incomprehensible, Azerbaijan is "on the shield" and Armenia is "under the shield".

And how does this compare with my post to which you answered -

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And I believe that it was not defeat that could have been avoided, but war.

?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And I believe that it was not defeat that could have been avoided, but war.

Yes, it's elementary just "The war can not be avoided." The first war "Armenia on the shield", euphoria. But Azerbaijanis are stubborn, hardworking people, gained strength, while Armenians rested on their laurels. Blow-throw, and 7 districts moved to Azerbaijan. And now I ask the Question "Who escaped what?" The war was inevitable, it came unexpectedly. And what do you think, she taught the Armenians something? But the Azerbaijanis are YES. They will no longer give up their conquered territories. (Like a Russian in the Baltic, I have both friends, since we are all Russian-speaking, and I'm not on one of the two sides, because here we are together.)

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

Yes, just elementary, "War can not be avoided." The first war "Armenia on the shield", euphoria. But Azerbaijanis are stubborn, hardworking people, gained strength, while Armenians rested on their laurels. Blow-throw, and 7 districts moved to Azerbaijan. And now I ask

Hmmm, baby talk.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And how does this compare with my post to which you answered -
Quote: Krasnoyarsk
And I believe that it was not defeat that could have been avoided, but war.

It was possible to avoid defeat, but it was necessary to give up part of the territory of Karabakh, which the Armenians seized in the 90s, but in a peaceful way.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

It was possible to avoid defeat, but it was necessary to give up part of the territory of Karabakh, which the Armenians seized in the 90s, but in a peaceful way.

Well, it started to come. So I wrote about this a little earlier, although the post is below.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Well, it started to come. So I wrote about this a little earlier, although the post is below.

But the Azerbaijanis would not have done it, and would not have done it themselves. They have support - Turkey.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

But the Azerbaijanis would not have done it, and would not have done it themselves. They have support - Turkey.

What does the Turks have to do with if the Armenians undertake to return 7 regions without a war? And the NK status is proposed to be discussed at the negotiations.
Do not think that Aliyev is so bloodthirsty that he would not negotiate in such conditions.
It was the Armenians who fluffed their tail and, as a result, lost everything.
Therefore, I assume that the war could have been avoided if it was the brains of the Pashinyans.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Do not think that Aliyev is so bloodthirsty that he would not negotiate in such conditions.
It was the Armenians who fluffed their tail and, as a result, lost everything.

Aliyev is a smart politician, and he would have decided peacefully, but Pashinyan did not understand that Aliyev was supported by Turkey, and the Turks would help Azerbaijan in a military clash. Which is what happened. Here comes the question "Where was Pashinyan soaring that he did not notice this?"

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

Aliyev is a smart politician, and would decide peacefully

Did you agree that with the correct position of Armenia, the war could have been avoided?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Did you agree that with the correct position of Armenia, the war could have been avoided?

Of course, war could have been avoided even in the early 90s, let alone the 2000s. But for this it was necessary to drop all ambitions, turn on the brain and solve everything peacefully. But there was no one to do this, the temporary workers were busy with others. And now, what happened, you can't bring it back.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

Of course the war could have been avoided

Quote: tihonmarine

Yes, just elementary, "War can not be avoided." The first war "Armenia on the Shield", euphoria. But Azerbaijanis are stubborn, hardworking people, gained strength, while Armenians rested on their laurels. Blow-throw, and 7 regions passed to Azerbaijan. And now I ask the Question "Who escaped what?" The war was inevitable, she

Your words? Think, analyze when you were right, when not.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Think, analyze when you were right, when not.

Here's a simple analysis, the war started, and I described the whole alignment based on the situation at the moment when war is inevitable.
And the war could no longer be avoided when "the horses are harnessed, the machine guns are loaded."
But it could have been avoided, only before Pashinyan came to power, and Pashinyan is not the person with whom you can decide something, he led Armenia to war, he himself pushed Aliyev.
What could be wrong, or you, that Pashinyan would have done everything according to his mind.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

What could be wrong, or you, that Pashinyan would have done everything according to his mind.

You write intricately. Yulite is like in a frying pan. The question was simple - could the war be avoided? My answer - it was POSSIBLE! Everything else is from the evil one.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

My answer - it was POSSIBLE! Everything else is from the evil one.

Since you do not need from the evil one, then it was possible, no problem. After the first shot, raise your hands up and write the act of surrender of Armenia and Karabakh.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

After the first shot, put your hands up and pee the act

And you don't have enough brains for "before the shot"?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And you don't have enough brains for "before the shot"?

So you ask Pashinyan about this, I was not the first to cover it.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

So you ask Pashinyan about this, I was not the first to cover it.

Forgive me, but what does Pashinyan of all stripes and ranks have to do with it? We discussed the question of whether, in principle, it was possible to avoid war. I said yes. You are engaged in outright demagoguery. Are you like that in life or you just have nothing to do?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

I said yes. You are engaged in outright demagoguery. Are you like that in life or you just have nothing to do?

And here is demagoguery. It's easier, you wanted to know if the war could have been avoided. You can, but you had to think earlier, and if you had already bitten the bit, then nothing would have stopped the war. Aliyev clearly decided to return Karabakh, for which he prepared the army, knowing that he would win.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

And here is demagoguery. It's easier, you wanted to know if the war could have been avoided. You can, but you had to think before,

Am I talking about avoiding it when it started? Are you out of your mind? Are you engaged in demagoguery again?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Am I talking about avoiding it when it started? Are you out of your mind? Are you engaged in demagoguery again?

Well, it means that this war had to be ended before the Armenians captured 7 regions of Azerbaijan. And after the 90s, the war did not stop, but smoldered. And who could stop her, WHO ???

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

WHO ???

Armenians !!! By agreeing to the voluntary return of 7 captured regions and, on the basis of this voluntariness, to beg for autonomy from Baku for Karabakh.
All. Empty chatter is boring. I wish you well.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Empty chatter is boring. I wish you well.

Praying late, Karabakh bye-bye. And if you are bored, then I wish you good health. And I have before 9 pm, too, hello at work.

[Xenofont]

On the shield, the ancient Greeks carried dead fighters, hence the steady expression: "... il on a shield il with a shield". Like, pan or lost.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Xenofont

Like, pan or miss.

And when you start a war in which you cannot win from the beginning, it is clear that "you will already be under the shield" and without respect. For Pashinyan, it worked "Pan or disappear", but he did not know such a saying. Although "disappeared" was already a foregone conclusion.

[SSR]

Quote: svp67

Armenian Prime Minister candidate: Defeat could have been avoided

Without condition, but now we need to draw the right conclusions from this defeat, including Russia

There are no words.
Dear Strategist, the Russian press, very little "covered" this conflict, because even before you, everything was a foregone conclusion.
Everyone is worthy of his "tariff plan", someone received a tariff - finished.

[Avior]

The defeat could have been avoided.
For this, twenty or fifteen years ago, when it became obvious that Armenia in financial terms could not resist Azerbaijan in terms of its capabilities, it was necessary not to wait for Baku to realize its military capabilities, but to agree on virtually the same conditions as after war agreed. Only the Armenians puffed out their cheeks.
And the fact that they were given 5 billion for the same thing, and they refused the importance, is generally an epic failure.
There would be no war, we received the money with honor, and the impetus to the Armenian economy would be very strong - they gave two annual budgets.
But the Armenians dumped everything. And they persist.

[210ox]

I agree completely. Nothing would help them. The army and defense must be built purposefully, bit by bit. With their then capabilities - decades. No, they preferred internal squabbles and quarrels with Russia.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: 210ox

I agree completely. Nothing would help them. The army and defense must be built purposefully, bit by bit. With their then capabilities - decades. No, they preferred internal squabbles and quarrels with Russia.

With such a terrain, during such a period of time, even with small budgets, they could build an impregnable mountain fortification. It's just that no one was doing this, and the Azerbaijanis were not considered as people, not seeing them as an enemy.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

With such a terrain, during such a period of time, even with small budgets, they could build an impregnable mountain fortification.

Sir, listen to smart ones, not me - there are no impregnable fortresses.
Mannerheim Line, Maginot Line, Atlantic Wall to help you.
The Armenians had to sit down at the negotiating table and, with the help of concessions (to return the captured regions), to achieve, at least, the autonomy of Karabakh, and as a maximum, its independence.

[Krasnodar]

This is understandable and I agree with that. I just write that if you want to save something by force, you need to prepare for it properly.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: 210ox

Nothing would help them.

Only one thing would help, after the first shot to raise "hands up the hill" and surrender at the mercy of the winner. Then the children would remain alive on both sides.

[Thrifty]

How not to remember the axiom that victory has a thousand fathers, and defeat is a round orphan. ...

[Avior]

Pashinyan is drawn to paternity, according to the principle - who is the last, he and dad

[APASUS]

We are talking about the so-called Meghri corridor (in the south of Armenia) of communication between the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic and the rest of Azerbaijan. On the basis of the agreement, Azerbaijani citizens will be able to freely carry out transit along such a corridor, which causes rejection of many Armenian politicians.

Seeing new politicians in Armenia are also pulling the country into war?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: APASUS

Seeing new politicians in Armenia are also pulling the country into war?

Forgotten the history of the early 20th century. And forgetfulness, oh, how it takes revenge.

[svoit]

Well, these politicians, who are against it, I can go to Karabakh, leaving my teeth on a shelf in Yerevan, anyway they won't have to eat anything as soon as the Lachin corridor is closed

[Dmitry Makarov]

And the chest opened simply:
Ukrainians began to pursue an Anti-Russian policy, and Crimea returned to the Native Harbor.
the Armenians began to pursue an Anti-Russian policy, and Karabakh returned to the Native Harbor.
Now, both those and others, whining, they say, this could have been avoided, and gush with delusional speculation.

[Gennady Fomkin]

Soviet joke.

- Comrade Warrant Officer, can you stop the tank?

- Yes, I can, Comrade General!

- Well, stop.

 - Tank, stop! One-two ...

[Andrey Stavropolsky]

In the first Karabakh they fought with weapons and ammunition from the Soviet garrisons, fuels and lubricants and spare parts from the same place. Those. it was all for free. And now all this has to be bought for the money that the Armenian diaspora has but the state of Armenia does not have. And the Azeris have it, so they won.

[iouris]

Pashinyan's owners needed a defeat in Karabakh. Complete.

[Basarev]

At the same time, many discussions of such a plan look rather strange - if only because history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood.

Why were they so up against him? In your opinion, everything is a foregone conclusion from the moment a person appeared? What a dogmatism.