Military Review

"There is no time for buildup": on the problems of the production of high-tech civilian products by enterprises of the Russian defense industry

113

Whether there are real ways to increase the share of high-tech civilian products manufactured by Rosoboronprom enterprises is a question that has been on the agenda since the time of Gorbachev's perestroika and "new thinking".


Then there was one party, and all the levers of governing the country and industry, science were in its hands. The country had a tough planned economy, and there were practically no schemes for cutting and stealing budget funds. They stole, of course, whoever could and knew how, but it was not a system, and there was control and demand at different levels and in different forms. Plus, the personnel policy gave failures even then, there were also mistakes with the appointment of managers to responsible areas and projects, enterprises and organizations. But there was no total nepotism, irresponsibility, and the personnel policy did not allow an absolutely incompetent and not having a basic specialized education "effective manager" to be appointed to lead the development and implementation of any, not to mention state importance, project.

Examples of today - with interest. At that time, the country had the most powerful military-industrial complex in the world, united within the borders of the Union, with links between enterprises, institutes and scientists, for which and in which the best minds and largest institutions worked. Substantial funds were allocated for the solution of the tasks set by the party and the government, and, in general, there were no problems with financing R&D and organizing production. Brain drain, and simply educated people, especially among young people, promising scientists, as it is today, basically also did not exist. There were and were developments in various fields, which sometimes were not inferior to the world level. Plus, the secret services could get secrets and technologies that existed in developed countries. And, to be honest, scientific and industrial espionage has borne tangible fruits for domestic science and industry.

There is a separate question about the quality of scientists and engineers themselves, managers. Over the past 30 years of new Russia, the education system at all its levels has significantly degraded and, even there are talents, the effect of their talents can be nullified by those very "effective managers" designed to "optimize" entire industries.

Again the notorious "no time to swing." Only it really does not exist, and the buildup is not always and not always visible.

So, with all the above, Gorbachev did not manage to carry out the conversion. In addition to frying pans at rocket and space enterprises and primitive consumer goods, nothing, by and large, could be done. We could not and still cannot produce domestic smartphones, TVs, computers, cars from our own components.

Civil aircraft construction is a separate pain. As well as mechanical engineering in general. The country was left without its own machine tool industry. Even our military products are rapidly losing positions in the world arms market.

This is not to say that everything is very bad. The military industry received an order to create civilian products in demand among citizens. And many enterprises have entered into such production: walkie-talkies, electrical equipment, optics, composites for medicine, monitoring equipment and much more. However, the share of civilian products at the enterprises of the military-industrial complex does not yet reach the planned targets.

Vladimir Putin was late with the technical re-equipment of the industry, with the very start, and now it is difficult to do due to sanctions and competition among global manufacturers. Is it really necessary to lower the “iron curtain” again and switch to our “conditionally high-tech” products. Whether this will be a way out of the situation in conditions of Russia's presence in the global market is a separate question.
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"UEC-Gas Turbines"
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  1. NEXUS
    NEXUS 3 October 2020 14: 45
    18
    Whether there are real ways to increase the share of high-tech civilian products manufactured by Rosoboronprom enterprises is a question that has been on the agenda since the time of Gorbachev's perestroika and "new thinking".

    We had a car of time in the form of 30 years. And of course, as is customary in Russia, we do everything at the last minute, with a strong time pressure.
    How can I not remember the saying about - harnesses for a long time, but drives fast ... but so far it is observed that we harness ...
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 3 October 2020 14: 53
      +7
      The longer you harness in this matter, the further you go. After all, they are being driven by competitors.
      1. military_cat
        military_cat 3 October 2020 15: 35
        19
        This is a perestroika idea that has not justified itself. Conversion of the line for the production of Kalashnikov assault rifles into the production of wheelchairs does not work; it will not be able to compete in efficiency with a line specially built for the production of wheelchairs. There is no civil production because there is no economic and legal basis for long-term investment in civilian production lines, no one knows what political, economic or judicial risks will play tomorrow.
        1. Sahalinets
          Sahalinets 4 October 2020 03: 46
          10
          So you read the interviews of Rostec managers. There they directly say that they will do something civilian only if the state guarantees sales to them. Those. in principle, they do not want to compete, but want to sculpt devils, which for big money will probably get money. Well, why should they even try, if sales are guaranteed? So they will drive away all rubbish. As a result, we will get the next completely uncompetitive production in which budget money is uselessly poured.
          1. Nastia makarova
            Nastia makarova 5 October 2020 06: 13
            -4
            you will buy 2 times more expensive than the Chinese one, but your own
          2. CSKA
            CSKA 5 October 2020 09: 57
            0
            Quote: Sahalinets
            So you read the interviews of Rostec managers. There they say directly that they will do something civilian only if the state guarantees them sales.

            A link from the interview to the studio.
            1. Vadim_888
              Vadim_888 7 October 2020 09: 19
              0
              ... A link from the interview to the studio

              What for? Go to Ali - express and compare prices with our stores, the difference will be on the face
              1. CSKA
                CSKA 7 October 2020 13: 23
                0
                Quote: Vadim_888
                What for? Go to Ali - express and compare prices with our stores, the difference will be on the face

                And here is Ali? The man speaks specifically about the managers of Rostec.
                1. Vadim_888
                  Vadim_888 7 October 2020 13: 45
                  0
                  .
                  And here is Ali? The person specifically says about Rostec managers

                  This means that the niche of civilian goods is very tightly occupied, and in order to compete in it, one must have good relations with sales companies, and there, if the product is not competitive, they will not take it, everyone in Rostec understands this very well
                  1. CSKA
                    CSKA 7 October 2020 15: 08
                    0
                    Quote: Vadim_888
                    everyone in Rostec understands this very well

                    Whether they understand it or not, no one said:
                    Quote: Sahalinets
                    There they directly say that they will do something civilian only if the state guarantees them sales

                    So we don't know what they think there.
    2. Escobar
      Escobar 3 October 2020 15: 20
      +8
      Here "until the roast cock bites" is more appropriate. And given the fact that already since 2014 foreign suppliers have been gradually blocking the air, and there is no reason that they have mercy, it is time to ask hard questions from those responsible for the timing and quality of import substitution. We won't buy anything for oil in the west.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 3 October 2020 15: 34
        20
        Quote: Eskobar
        Here it is more appropriate "until the roast cock bites"

        The roasted rooster did not peck now, but 30 years ago. The main thing is not to wait for another northern fur-bearing animal in this matter.
        I have said many times, and I will not tire of repeating, for something to get off the ground, POLITICAL WILL is needed. And our helmsmen don't have it.
        1. Polente the Wanderer
          Polente the Wanderer 3 October 2020 17: 40
          +8
          The whole catch is that there is only one helmsman, and if against, he will hire the west
        2. Simargl
          Simargl 3 October 2020 19: 02
          0
          Quote: NEXUS
          The roasted rooster did not peck now, but 30 years ago.
          A roasted rooster has been pecking for 500 years.
          But we scratch the pecked and continue in the same spirit. There were periods of "enlightenment" when the country was quickly catching up, but ... it looks like it is not ours to keep up ... crying
      2. CSKA
        CSKA 5 October 2020 09: 59
        0
        Quote: Eskobar
        it's time to ask hard from those responsible for the timing and quality of import substitution

        Well, in 6 years, import substitution cannot be done so quickly, but it is moving forward very much.
        1. Vadim_888
          Vadim_888 7 October 2020 09: 22
          0
          ... Well, in 6 years, import substitution cannot be done so quickly, but it is very moving forward


          We had almost everything of our own at the beginning of 2000,
          But all this was put under the knife, and now you pay for an unreasoned domestic policy
          1. CSKA
            CSKA 7 October 2020 15: 09
            0
            Quote: Vadim_888
            We had almost everything of our own at the beginning of 2000,

            What? What did we have there?
    3. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 3 October 2020 15: 21
      13
      Quote: NEXUS
      How can I not remember the saying about - harnesses for a long time, but drives fast ... but so far it is observed that we harness ...

      Quote: BlackMokona
      The longer you harness in this matter, the further you go.

      They were trying to find the harness ... They harnessed themselves ... The former trotters turned into overweight geldings ... The harness was already worn out, and the wheels of the cart were dry ... As for harnessing skills, they were not born when they were born, and what they taught is long forgotten ...
      The main thing for us is to introduce new rules in the harnessing process, and no one promised anything about the ride ...
      1. Galleon
        Galleon 3 October 2020 18: 26
        16
        Quote: ROSS 42
        As for the skills of harnessing, they were not born,

        There were skills. For example, such



        Note: the demand is from the leadership!
        1. Alf
          Alf 3 October 2020 18: 46
          17
          Quote: Galleon
          Note: the demand is from the leadership!

          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 3 October 2020 22: 09
            -5
            And one hell every year, starting from the beginning of the 60s, they began to score on GOSTs - since the plans simply would not have been fulfilled.
      2. Vadim_888
        Vadim_888 7 October 2020 09: 23
        0
        I agree - "while harnessing, the mare died"
    4. Alien From
      Alien From 3 October 2020 15: 30
      +4
      I agree with NEXUS, it would be time to go, and not re-stick the nameplates ...
      1. 210ox
        210ox 3 October 2020 20: 47
        +4
        Go .... Here you have to fly like a Formula 1 car. But alas. There are more and more fools, with better roads, but thieves are another trouble for Russia by leaps and bounds.
    5. Insurgent
      Insurgent 3 October 2020 17: 17
      +2
      Quote: NEXUS
      We had a car of time in the form of 30 years.

      Objectively - twenty years. The "Yeltsin period" with 100% dependence on the US can be safely deleted, as if there was no such chance.

      Well, the last twenty years, it is what it is request They should be spoken of as a time of opportunities - used / missed ...
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 3 October 2020 19: 04
        +6
        Quote: Insurgent
        The "Yeltsin period" with 100% dependence on the United States can be safely deleted
        And after Eltsin, they immediately shook themselves off? Almost the same faces flicker.
      2. 210ox
        210ox 3 October 2020 20: 48
        +2
        Not really. The first half of the nineties rolled by inertia.
      3. pereselenec
        pereselenec 4 October 2020 00: 56
        +8
        Quote: Insurgent
        Objectively - twenty years. The "Yeltsin period" with 100% dependence on the US can be safely deleted, as if there was no such chance.

        Well, the last twenty years, that is, that is, they should be spoken of as a time of opportunities - used / missed ...


        Unfortunately, we missed a decade of windfall oil revenues. There will never be such a golden chance in the history of our country - against the backdrop of sanctions, falling oil prices, the emergence of a shale alternative and the general trend towards a transition to alternative energy sources. When oil cost $ 110 and Russia was flooded with free oil tanks, it was possible to make a second Kuwait here. Unfortunately, of course, the loot settled on the Panamanian accounts of various murky phononcellists, and the people had to hold on.
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 5 October 2020 10: 02
          +1
          Quote: pereselenec
          here it was possible to make a second Kuwait.

          First. How?
          Second. What do you have in mind? By the standard of living?
          Third. Is Kuwait a technologically advanced state?
      4. Vadim_888
        Vadim_888 7 October 2020 09: 28
        +1
        I will upset you
        . years old.

        Objectively - twenty years. The "Yeltsin period" with 100% dependence on the USA can be safely deleted, as if there was no such chance

        Before Putin, there were 9 factories of the profile of my work, and 2 were organized from scratch, now there are only 2 left
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 7 October 2020 15: 10
          0
          Quote: Vadim_888
          Before Putin, there were 9 factories of the profile of my work, and 2 were organized from scratch, now there are only 2 left

          What is your profile?
    6. Ryaruav
      Ryaruav 3 October 2020 22: 58
      +6
      unfortunately only pretend to be harnessed
    7. K298rtm
      K298rtm 3 October 2020 23: 09
      +4
      The car is not a car, but (in my opinion) there was a small cart - this was before 2008-2013. (five-year plan):
      - in the West - a crisis,
      - we have money up to ... ("... you will be up to your waist"), tk. oil is very expensive
      - relations with the West are quite working (there are no sanctions yet).
  2. Gato
    Gato 3 October 2020 14: 56
    13
    Are there any real ways to increase the share of high-tech civilian products manufactured by Rosoboronprom enterprises?

    I never understood why military enterprises should produce civilian products? It would be okay back in the USSR, where the military-industrial complex was excessive and there was a planned system, but in a capitalist country, what's the point? If you want profit, export weapons, but competing in the civilian sphere with the same Chinese will be very problematic.
    1. Alf
      Alf 3 October 2020 18: 56
      +4
      Quote: Gato
      but in a capitalist country, what's the point?

      The basic principle of capitalism is money should make money. Capitalism must constantly develop, otherwise it will die.
      Quote: Gato
      but it will be very problematic to compete in the civil sphere with the same Chinese.

      Sergei ! This issue in the freest country is solved very simply - as soon as it is noticed that some China causes a loss with cheaper goods, protective duties are immediately introduced.
      1. Sergei Sovetkin
        Sergei Sovetkin 3 October 2020 19: 01
        +4
        So it is in a free and with a goal to develop and maintain its own production
        1. Alf
          Alf 3 October 2020 19: 04
          +1
          Quote: Sergei Sovetkin
          So it is in a free and with a goal to develop and maintain its own production

          Exactly what's in
          Quote: Sergei Sovetkin
          free and with the goal of developing and maintaining its own production
          .
      2. K298rtm
        K298rtm 3 October 2020 23: 12
        0
        Everyone needs to develop. In the modern world, in order to stay in place, one must quickly run forward.
      3. Gato
        Gato 4 October 2020 09: 58
        +2
        protective duties are immediately introduced

        Even from the point of view of a capitalist, this is not the best way out. The domestic market will sooner or later be saturated, and then? A producer accustomed to domestic greenhouse conditions will not be able to compete with anyone on the foreign market.
      4. Gato
        Gato 4 October 2020 10: 06
        +1
        The basic principle of capitalism is money should make money

        This applies to general commodity production, to which the military-industrial complex has little to do. In a normal country, the goal of the military-industrial complex is not to make a profit, but to ensure security, and external export is an additional bonus if it is good to ensure this very security. So why produce mediocre, even high-tech goods instead of good weapons?
      5. Yura
        Yura 4 October 2020 12: 35
        0
        Quote: Alf
        protective duties are immediately introduced.

        This is, of course, a plus for the manufacturer, but for an ordinary consumer, the product rises in price for this very duty, for the state, on the one hand, it stimulates domestic production, on the other hand, a decrease in demand due to an increase in the price of the product, which entails a decrease in tax collections. Here you have to act very thoughtfully. There will be no competition only when a local manufacturer makes a specific product cheaper and of better quality than an imported one, which for the most part is impossible for manufacturers from the military-industrial complex, or is difficult to reach and costly.
    2. Simargl
      Simargl 3 October 2020 19: 10
      +1
      Quote: Gato
      I never understood why military enterprises should produce civilian products?
      It depends on what kind of products.
      Tractors along with tanks, weapons for hunters and athletes, drones for foresters and agronomists ...

      Quote: Gato
      but it will be very problematic to compete in the civil sphere with the same Chinese.
      Take quality, increase the paying capacity of the population.
      1. Gato
        Gato 4 October 2020 09: 52
        +2
        It depends on what kind of products.
        Tractors along with tanks, weapons for hunters and athletes, drones for foresters and agronomists ...

        Very funny. Do you seriously think that a tractor is not much different from a tank, hunting and sporting weapons from military ones (especially in terms of the production of used supplies), and someone will supply foresters and agronomists in industrial quantities to UAVs, worth several of their annual salaries?
        I will repeat once again: pots made of Damascus steel may be sold to connoisseurs, but they will not be able to compete with stainless steel counterparts in mass production.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 4 October 2020 19: 18
          -2
          Quote: Gato
          Very funny.
          You can urge! Especially when someone sits in a puddle and blows bubbles.
          A tank is not only a cannon, but also a transmission, drives, hydraulics, an engine, motion control systems ... I understand that you do not quite understand what a modern tractor is. But in the "civilized" world, little by little they come to remote control of field work! Do you know where this can be applied?

          Quote: Gato
          Will foresters and agronomists supply UAVs in industrial quantities at a cost of several of their annual salaries?
          How much does a drone cost for a forester? Do you think they need a heavy monster capable of patrolling for days? What for?!
          Okay. They will distribute, say, free of charge. What will the forester do with this "elephant"? Or, in other words: this drone detected something interesting 10-15 km away, in the thicket. What's next?

          Quote: Gato
          I will repeat once again: pots made of Damascus steel may be sold to connoisseurs, but they will not be able to compete with stainless steel counterparts in mass production.
          However, a good hostess (and owner) will prefer knives made of good stainless steel (at least 80X18 ++), pots made of stainless steel, copper or ceramic coated, rather than enameled or aluminum ...

          Quote: Gato
          hunting and sporting weapons from combat (especially in terms of release of used supplies)
          If we can somehow agree with the hunting one, then with the sports one - only partially: with our laws and pricing policy, shooting sport, which can easily plug the army in the belt in terms of ammunition consumption, is practically not developed at all. Training in sporting is from 5000 r just for cartridges with plates
        2. Motorist
          Motorist 4 October 2020 21: 26
          +1
          Quote: Gato
          pots made of damask steel may be sold to connoisseurs

          But remember the movie "Election Day", a story about a chapel made of some expensive alloy. Of course, this is fiction, or maybe not ...
    3. Vadim_888
      Vadim_888 7 October 2020 09: 34
      0
      ... I never understood why military enterprises should produce civilian products?

      Civilian products allow you to save the income of employees of enterprises between military orders, update the equipment park, improve the qualifications of engineering personnel, since intellectual activity requires constant replenishment, the more tasks you solve, the more effective technical solutions you can implement.
  3. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 3 October 2020 15: 00
    20
    This is capitalism, but it has become 25 million below the poverty line and we are among the leaders in the growth of billionaires, the ruling class headed by Putin is not bad at all, they do not live badly, they argue whether they can live on 50 thousand, but for other citizens this is a dream, this is such a democracy but.
    1. Seaflame
      Seaflame 3 October 2020 15: 48
      +9
      This is not capitalism and not democracy, capitalism in the states that Arleigh Burke "bakes" like pies. And we have an oligarchic-corrupt system, without any control from the population, democracy in our long-suffering country does not even smell.
  4. Van 16
    Van 16 3 October 2020 15: 04
    +4
    "many enterprises have entered such production"
    Apparently where is how. In our country, on the contrary, all civilian products are called "non-core" and their production is successfully preserved.
  5. Ragnar Lodbrok
    Ragnar Lodbrok 3 October 2020 15: 08
    13
    "There is no time for buildup"

    This phrase has already set my teeth on edge.
    Putin was late with the technical re-equipment of the industry

    Yes, it should have started in the so-called "well-fed zero", 2000-2014. The time the carriage and the small cart were taking into account the income from expensive oil and gas and the absence of sanctions, it was possible, if not all, then many mountains to move, but we have something what we have ... it was necessary to invest money in industry, agriculture, science, and not in overseas papers ..
    1. Alf
      Alf 3 October 2020 18: 58
      +7
      Quote: Ragnar Lothbrok
      It was necessary to invest money in industry, agriculture, science, and not in overseas papers.

      And THEY simply cannot do otherwise.
    2. Sergei Sovetkin
      Sergei Sovetkin 3 October 2020 19: 05
      +2
      This is exactly what I meant. Plus, the foreign policy situation was favorable.
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 3 October 2020 22: 13
      +1
      Sorry, but in 8 years you will not move any mountains in civilian products - in 2008 there was a crisis from which Russia climbed out for 4 more years.
    4. Vadim_888
      Vadim_888 7 October 2020 09: 39
      -1
      .
      Yes, it should have started in the so-called "well-fed zero", 2000-2014

      In the 2014s, "Unnamed" thought that in 200 oil would be XNUMX per barrel,
      Hence the expressions "energy superpower", "energy security" and so on, so he did not need production, and then oops and "The King is naked"
  6. parusnik
    parusnik 3 October 2020 15: 21
    11
    Strange, in a bad totalitarian era there were slogans: "Give me! Higher and higher! We will catch up and surpass!" Now the thirty-year era is characterized as follows: We wanted the best, it turned out as always, there is no money, but you hold on, there is no time to swing .. There is some hopelessness .. and this is from the mouth of the leadership.
  7. 16112014nk
    16112014nk 3 October 2020 15: 39
    +8
    Vladimir Putin was late
    Whatever one may say, but the conclusion is one: 20 years under the leadership of an irreplaceable re-president - "down the drain." Further more.
  8. Ros 56
    Ros 56 3 October 2020 15: 42
    +6
    There are only two questions - the effectiveness of engineering and technical personnel and political leadership and their responsibility to the country and people. And they smoothly flow into the field of criminal law and the rule of law. A person who has gotten a gold piece for theft and corruption should not be released on parole. And this again rests on the political leadership. And I think the judge who made such a decision should sit down next to the punished for the same period. Have not played enough for thirty years in this fucking democracy, well, it does not exist in nature, there is only a stick and a carrot.
  9. Seaflame
    Seaflame 3 October 2020 15: 44
    10
    So much time wasted. But how much money was invested in the Olympics, the World Cup on football, image construction such as a football stadium in St. Petersburg. I have nothing against sports, a football fan myself, but there was no time for such spending. Some analysts write that we "missed" the 4th industrial revolution and can lag behind critically ...
    1. evgen1221
      evgen1221 3 October 2020 19: 16
      +3
      And theoretically, we have a chance to sleep through the green revolution with our oil and gas games - the world is actively using hydrogen technologies in transport and energy. Is it not that when our gas becomes unnecessary in Europe, Gazprom will finally start extending gas across the country?
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 3 October 2020 22: 16
        0
        And Russia just intends to increase the production of hydrogen to 80 billion kilowatts per year - until 2035. And also develops the direction of research and development of thermonuclear generation in the same Sarov.
      2. Motorist
        Motorist 4 October 2020 21: 40
        +1
        Quote: evgen1221
        the world is actively using hydrogen technologies in transport and energy

        Tell me, as a heating engineer, where to get hydrogen? It is [almost] all oxidized on the planet. Use wind power for recovery? Very unprofitable (IMHO), but money is also energy. Unless for PR (like, look - a CO2-neutral car!).

        PS Nuclear power plants are also CO2-neutral, but Greta was told: no "gu-gu" about this. lol
        1. evgen1221
          evgen1221 5 October 2020 05: 00
          0
          Water electrolysis, for example, the Oil Arabs seem to be making a solar-powered complex for this, the Germans also want something similar. Plus, they are moving massively in transport, which means at least the cost-effective technology has been finished. True, the production of pdastic from bad weather and gas will not go anywhere, most likely for a long time.
          1. Motorist
            Motorist 5 October 2020 19: 30
            0
            Good evening Evgen1221! hi

            You did not understand what I wanted to say (or I did not put it that way). Reducing oxidized hydrogen and then oxidizing it again for energy is nonsense. This is applicable for very specific industries (space, for example, the military-industrial complex). On an industrial scale - money down the drain ...

            If electricity for recovery is taken from the so-called. "green" sources, then: firstly, it is expensive; secondly, the same energy could be used for other purposes, and now its shortage must be mined in a coal-fired power plant (for example).
            1. evgen1221
              evgen1221 5 October 2020 19: 45
              +1
              You're right. I dug superficially, and yes, I was wrong. However, the vehicle fleet will apparently be actively switching to hydrogen cells, and for it, the extraction was apparently found how to make it profitable, since the hybrids rushed en masse to rivet.
              1. Motorist
                Motorist 5 October 2020 20: 31
                0
                Electric, hydrogen and hybrid cars are good for cities like Shanghai, where the sun cannot be seen on a clear day due to smog. But in order to provide them with fuel in other places it will smoke mercilessly according to the "law of preservation of anything."
      3. Vadim_888
        Vadim_888 7 October 2020 10: 12
        -1
        .
        Yes, it should have started in the so-called "well-fed zero", 2000-2014


        Already starting
  10. Doccor18
    Doccor18 3 October 2020 15: 46
    +9
    Vladimir Putin was late with the technical re-equipment of the industry ...

    For 19 years ...
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 3 October 2020 19: 12
      +4
      Quote: Doccor18
      For 19 years.
      Judging by the equipment on which I worked, it was rather 60.
      1. Vadim_888
        Vadim_888 7 October 2020 10: 14
        -1
        You can say something new, in the 14th year he managed to replace the trophy from the factories since the Second World War
  11. rocket757
    rocket757 3 October 2020 15: 49
    0
    I really don't want to have a sled instead of antennas! pans instead of armor and stuff like that!
    There must be a reasonable compromise!
  12. Aleks2000
    Aleks2000 3 October 2020 16: 10
    +7
    And, this is all just another lump on the ears. Type of import substitution.

    As if yes, it is necessary. But no matter how necessary. The oligarchs are oriented towards the west. The population is accustomed to the fact that everything is Western. Who needs Zenith cameras for 500 thousand, where is the national nameplate?

    And everyone who talks about fat people in 2008, 14, that then it was necessary to develop everything, are called agents of the State Department by the urya-patriots.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 3 October 2020 22: 19
      -2
      Actually, in the new Zeniths, everything is domestic, so they cost under 500000 as small-scale production.
      1. Aleks2000
        Aleks2000 4 October 2020 08: 41
        +1
        There were reviews in due time that he copies their model one to one ...
        If we are talking about one and the same, Medvedev fotik ...
  13. eklmn
    eklmn 3 October 2020 16: 18
    -1
    And if you look not from the point of view of production (these are legs), but from the point of view of the head ($$$ for the state)? In the US, 70% of GDP is created by small and very small businesses - 5-30 people. In Russia - oil / gas / vpk. In the United States, the main criterion for the health of the economy is the purchasing power of the population - they sold a lot (the population bought a lot), which means the market is going up, the population is happy, the economy is successful. Nobody canceled the formula money_product_money. More goods were bought - more goods were released, more work / workers / wages.
    As in Russia - I don't know. But it’s the USSR to develop something that will not be bought when the product is released. It is necessary to develop it when there is a demand for products, when the population spends money. If he does not spend, stagnation and impoverishment of the population and the country. How to force (!?) The population to spend (how to make the population rich) is the main question for Putin.
    1. Genry
      Genry 3 October 2020 17: 03
      -9
      Quote: eklmn
      how to make the population rich) - this is the main question for Putin.

      Actually, this is a question for Mishustin. And the president has a different area of ​​responsibility under the Constitution.
      1. Karabin
        Karabin 3 October 2020 21: 12
        +3
        Quote: Genry
        And the president has a different area of ​​responsibility under the Constitution.

        For example, be her guarantor. The previous edition was guaranteed until reset.
    2. Vadim_888
      Vadim_888 7 October 2020 10: 20
      0
      ... It is necessary to develop it when there is a demand for products, when the population spends money.

      Well, the population has no money, there are loans, there is no money and will not be.
      The reason is simple - we have a state of guards .... They know how to guard, but not what is necessary. All trade is concentrated in the hands of foreigners, and trade is always the accumulation of capital, so forget about development, it will not exist.
  14. Kushka
    Kushka 3 October 2020 18: 12
    0
    Quote: eklmn
    And if you look not from the point of view of production (these are legs), but from the point of view of the head ($$$ for the state)? In the US, 70% of GDP is created by small and very small businesses - 5-30 people. In Russia - oil / gas / vpk. In the United States, the main criterion for the health of the economy is the purchasing power of the population - they sold a lot (the population bought a lot), which means the market is going up, the population is happy, the economy is successful. Nobody canceled the formula money_product_money. More goods were bought - more goods were released, more work / workers / wages.
    As in Russia - I don't know. But it’s the USSR to develop something that will not be bought when the product is released. It is necessary to develop it when there is a demand for products, when the population spends money. If he does not spend, stagnation and impoverishment of the population and the country
    ..

    It's amazing how old this bearded question is
    (head-legs). I remember a conversation between a Finnish tycoon and a publisher and
    eminent Soviet writer (late USSR). Our
    says that if a writer in the USSR has a book, he carries
    it to the publishing house, and they answer him - they can put it in a plan for
    19XX - before that, all the funds of the paper have already been assigned and we do not have
    not a sheet of paper.
    The fin looked like he was being explained in ancient Egyptian
    with quotations in ancient Chinese. I have, he says, so you bring
    book, I read it and publish it for my own money, for example. 1000 copies Have you bought it?
    I bought it, I take this money, I buy paper, I publish 10000 copies, I bought it,
    again with the proceeds we buy paper and print 1 million copies.
    And so on until it stops. And then there is "no paper", how is it not?
  15. imobile2008
    imobile2008 3 October 2020 18: 41
    -2
    Quote: Gato
    Are there any real ways to increase the share of high-tech civilian products manufactured by Rosoboronprom enterprises?

    I never understood why military enterprises should produce civilian products? It would be okay back in the USSR, where the military-industrial complex was excessive and there was a planned system, but in a capitalist country, what's the point? If you want profit, export weapons, but competing in the civilian sphere with the same Chinese will be very problematic.

    And the fact that the demand for military products is seasonal. All over the world, the military produces civilian products. The fact that we release only the military says that they are doing badly or expensively. You can't make everything perfect at once abroad, they will first hone everything to perfection on civil projects, and then apply the knowledge to the military. This is why we are lagging behind.
  16. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 3 October 2020 19: 24
    +2
    I am amazed at the very formulation of such a question - HOW can a segment serving a smaller part of the economy (MIC) set itself the goal of producing peaceful and competitive products in adequate proportions? It's just some kind of topsy-turvy!
    It is much easier for a peaceful manufacturer who has occupied some niche to reach the level of production of good military products through a system of stable government contracts, than it is a priori not tied to reducing costs to train the military industry to produce competitive civilian products in a weak economy.

    If really the fifth point rested to reduce the costs of maintaining the military-industrial complex - let them squeeze out a niche from manufacturers of construction equipment. Cranes, excavators, harvesting machines, garden tools, collapsible structures such as greenhouses and greenhouses. This is a huge area in which the experience of our military-industrial complex will be useful, and it is really possible to squeeze out a niche (up to the Eurozone), and it is possible to maintain a profitable price range and increase quality.

    And smartphones, TVs, cameras, you can immediately say "forget it."
    1. Knell wardenheart
      Knell wardenheart 3 October 2020 19: 38
      +2
      And here I again hear: "Oh, in the USSR there was such a system of education, there were such specialists! But when the 90s came, everything, education at 0, everything was in dust."
      You know, the whole history of the formation of the USSR in the context of the application of emerging specialists to the development of science (for the benefit of society or the economy) is in fact an extremely dark and ambiguous question. As a rule, such a scheme worked - our super-education produces a super-specialist. He begins to invent something and drag around different research institutes or tries to promote the idea through the guts of the party - and with a high degree of probability he is a SLUT. Or they pull rubber to gray hair, and his idea is slowly chewed in offices, football back and forth with resolutions. I often come across "the Soviet scientist was the first to invent a mobile phone" or "Wi-Fi was first invented in the USSR" or "Pentium was created by a native of the USSR" or "the USSR was the first to develop a prototype of the Internet" and so on.
      And this essentially means that in the USSR the power of nichrome did not understand the meaning of these things, did not give money for this, did not derive economic or scientific benefits from this - and these same ideas created billions, but already IN THE WEST. So this is the real cost of a solid share of the venerable Soviet approach and education.
      They made cool specialists, taught them well, and then cut their wings like broilers, so that they drown their cool ideas in vodyar and local councils here or left to the west.

      And what about "ruined education in the 90s." Also - grandma's tales. In the 90s, the general pestilence covered all the school teachers ?! They worked hard as before for a penny, the same people, absolutely THE SAME, talked the same blablablaa using practically the same textbooks, almost until the 2000s +. Is education to blame that after school people began to break into managers and lawyers and economists? If a person has a brain - the school model that was in the 90s + that shaft of free information and periodicals that came after the USSR + the Internet, which cannot be ignored after the early 2000s -> there is enough for the eyes so that the one who wants and who is interested - would become a specialist. Call a spade a spade - education is not to blame, the economy is to blame. Which cut off the release of a huge number of names of quite competitive products, and became a banal economy of speculative operations.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 3 October 2020 22: 23
      0
      "To train the military industry to produce competitive civilian products" The Tula KBP as an example produces both weapons and medical equipment, and I must say quite decent. And in Russia, almost all military-industrial complex enterprises already produce civilian products with volumes from 10 to 30%
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 3 October 2020 23: 06
        0
        Right ! So I meant it - in our approach to this issue, we should NOT chase outright consumer goods such as TVs, smartphones, etc. - we must squeeze out niches for those products that are more or less close to our military developments and at the same time have a more than good cost, so that we have the opportunity to "bring down the price" in the direction of technical refinement and innovation, and not by increasing the party membership or at the expense of cheap labor.
        We will not be able to give birth to competitive microelectronics and flood the market of civilian products with it, because it will be harmful from the point of view of consumer interests, price / quality / strength - but to squeeze out point niches - including in our own and CIS markets from different Caterpillars - could well. An example of a construction technique is one of the first things that comes to mind - you named medical equipment, and that's great! If you think about it, you can define quite a few "good" niches - it's a pity that most likely no one will bother too much about this huge potential.
    3. Vadim_888
      Vadim_888 7 October 2020 10: 25
      -1
      .
      If really the fifth point rested to reduce the costs of maintaining the military-industrial complex - let them squeeze out a niche from manufacturers of construction equipment. Cranes, excavators, harvesting machines, garden tools, collapsible structures such as greenhouses and greenhouses. This is a huge area in which the experience of our military-industrial complex will be useful, and it is really possible to squeeze out a niche (up to the Eurozone), and it is possible to maintain a profitable price range and increase quality.



      What are you dear, at the exhibition in 2005, Uralvagonzavod brought its hammers to Moscow for 90 rubles to the wholesale market, I then offered them 50 to buy Kamyshinsky and does not toil with nonsense
  17. TANKISTONE
    TANKISTONE 3 October 2020 20: 42
    +1
    Is it really necessary to lower the "iron curtain" again
    The Soviets did not drop the "Iron Curtain", But the Soviets did it! ..
    1. c2020
      c2020 3 October 2020 20: 58
      0
      .
      Since the defense industry was instructed to produce civilian products as soon as possible, there is a proposal to put forward a "counter plan" (as they said in the USSR). Now we need to instruct civilian enterprises to quickly start producing defense products! Opposite orders will be mutually destroyed and this will bring closer the end of the current management insanity

      tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue
      .
      .
  18. depressant
    depressant 3 October 2020 21: 05
    +2
    This is where colleagues ask the question: why should enterprises producing certain types of products that have nothing in common with consumer goods, for example, start producing pots, pans, etc.? And then, that our industry is now only 60% loaded, sales have fallen, there is nothing to pay taxes, there is nothing to pay salaries, banks do not give loans, workers must be cut.

    And how can you order the owner of a capitalist enterprise: "And let you out, brother, pots, if your main product is not taken!"
    "Brother", who once got that enterprise on the occasion of a voucher, did not just know how to do anything in those distant times, except how to hire specialized managers and stack money, especially since he cannot and will not do anything in this regard now. "What other pots? - he will say. - There is no such law that will oblige me to make pots!"
    There really is no law and cannot be. Is that tax nishtyaki. But this means to nullify the outlined strictness in relation to money withdrawn to offshore companies.

    But there are also state or semi-state enterprises in the Voenprom. They can be ordered. But, firstly, money will be required for R&D for the development or purchase of machinery and equipment, raw materials, hiring and training personnel, and increasing the management staff. And here this business is slow, until they bring it in, until they roll it back, until they distribute, who will have what from this, until the chains are folded from production to the counter. In general, it will be more expensive for itself. Rather, the state ...

    Let's say they finally get up and running, and some titanium pans will appear on sale. For the price of a cast iron bridge each. Who will take? Will collectors accept a historical era? So that after 20 years in the VO "History" section Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky would post an article on this topic, and we would enthusiastically consider the photographs of these "signs" and have a heated discussion - for this to stamp those pots? And this despite the fact that even in my collective farm this kind of goods of various sizes - a shaft, eyes run up, there would be money ...
    There was no need to bring down the union, guys. And they knocked down, so it was not necessary to bring down the light industry. But they knocked everything down! And right there, "Bratsk" China, without soap, climbed into all the niches formed. "Partners" - where China was not allowed.

    Here they pass the law: do not export unprocessed wood! Only products! And the customs officers are already sternly frowning, threatening the violators with punishment. What do you think, Russian men will perk up their spirits and say: "Let's make furniture! Come on from valuable wood species, eh?"
    The Russian peasants were late. 60% of Russian forest lands (this figure was recently announced) is under the Chinese. They will not make furniture, although they are excellent even for palace furniture. Why drag your craftsmen here, to Russia? Logs are now impossible - well, okay, they will bring their Chinese, they will drink on the permitted boards, take out the boards ...
    This law of ours is for them. A delicate offer to rich China to share a little money with impoverished Russia - through a duty on exported goods.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 3 October 2020 22: 26
      +1
      "Brother", who once got that enterprise on the occasion of a voucher, did not just know how to do anything in those distant times, except how to hire specialized managers and stack money, all the more, he does not know how and will not do anything in this regard now "These guys are no longer all gone bankrupt - you won't be full on military products, and everyone now understands this, but they began to understand it back in the 2000s.
      1. depressant
        depressant 3 October 2020 23: 39
        +1
        Vadim, well, you know who I'm talking about - those who have not gone bankrupt. As for the Military Industry, I think he will not have time for pots now. Such times are passing that I see a large state order for all types of weapons.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 4 October 2020 11: 44
          +2
          In general, all the enterprises of the military-industrial complex in Russia are already engaged in the development and production of civilian equipment and materials, and their share of these products will grow every year - "Such times are passing, that I see a large state order for all types of weapons." It is not seen because until 2023, armament costs have been reduced. Russia will no longer get involved in an arms race.
          1. depressant
            depressant 5 October 2020 19: 31
            0
            Yes, I know, funding for the military-industrial complex has been cut. And I am very afraid of that. Our territory is large, the border is huge, which means that we need as many weapons as possible to defend ourselves. And here is the doctrine, deliberately condemning huge masses of civilians to the role of victims: only large cities and strategic objects go under protection. So I think: I get under a protective radar cap or not.
        2. Vadim_888
          Vadim_888 7 October 2020 10: 28
          +1
          ... ... Such times are passing that I see a large state order for all types of weapons.

          It's just you see each other, and the rest see a hole in the budget, so it's unlikely
  19. iouris
    iouris 3 October 2020 21: 22
    0
    So so. Despite the coronavirus, quickly improve the quality of public health, education in kindergartens, secondary schools, universities, double the production of highly qualified engineers and military personnel, and provide the army with high-tech drones. Well, and so on. Term - three months! And what would ... There is no time for buildup!
  20. Karabin
    Karabin 3 October 2020 21: 28
    +2
    Vladimir Putin was late with the technical re-equipment of the industry, with the very start,

    And he, in general, was going to start? In my opinion, both he and his Politburo feel good even without the technical re-equipment of industry. Well, you have to strain and plow, like the Stalinist People's Commissars, and in your head to be able to multiply and add, and not only divide. Look at the entourage of the autocrat. Vertical. They are all tip-top. Dough is the sea, the zomboyaschik plows in three shifts, the electorate votes. Stability. And no one is going to change the system, there are no bad ones.
    1. depressant
      depressant 4 October 2020 00: 07
      +2
      I have to agree with you. Putin was late, hence it is his "There is no time for buildup!" The military industry would not lose. And the vertical will be broken. Over the next few years, the roll will go terrible. Actually, we are present at the initial phase. And if those who need it, who are worthy, broke it, and then it’s such a corrupt trash that you involuntarily wish that breaking, if it should take place, then let it be in the very distant future. Now is not the time. The country would not be lost. Withstand, and then breaking the vertical - if necessary.
  21. chingachguc
    chingachguc 3 October 2020 23: 27
    +2
    there has always been competition. A successful example of conversion is the construction of Sukhoi liners instead of frying pans.
  22. imobile2008
    imobile2008 4 October 2020 11: 12
    0
    Or maybe because money is spent in the wrong place The Ministry of Finance has allocated about 1,2 billion rubles in the draft federal budget for the upcoming three-year period. additional annual transfers to Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The money is supposed to be directed to increase the salaries of public sector workers and civil servants in the republics. This follows from the draft budget law and the explanations to it.

    Following a meeting with Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Kozak on September 8, the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Economic Development were instructed to "ensure the allocation of budgetary allocations to increase wages for workers in the budgetary sphere of the Republic of Abkhazia and the Republic of South Ossetia and civil servants of the Republic of South Ossetia."

    The draft budget proposes to reserve up to 1,25 billion rubles for these purposes. in 2021 and 1,17 billion rubles each. in 2022–2023 (total - about 3,6 billion rubles) until the relevant decisions are taken by the Russian government.

    Read more at RBC:
    https://www.rbc.ru/politics/04/10/2020/5f772ece9a79471ee5c48d35?from=from_main_7
  23. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 4 October 2020 12: 21
    +3
    The USSR had an economy and technological chains arranged fundamentally differently from those in the capitalist countries. These systems could and did produce the highest quality product in all spheres of human activity. All the failures of the USSR were associated exclusively with an absolutely poor-quality management system, which Khrushchev began to build, and Brezhnev carefully designed. However, the power of the Soviet economy was such that it resisted its destruction for many decades ...
    Alas, our modern authorities have completely abandoned the Soviet system, and have not yet understood how the capitalist system actually functions. I already wrote that our power is the fans who have taken over the football club. The fans, when they get drunk, absolutely know exactly how to play and how to judge and how to run the club. Well, they got to the field ...
    We do not have individual shortcomings. We have a systemic collapse. And it is impossible to use secular developments. First, in the field of management, we have not a single person at the top who would have an intellect even one tenth of that of a Soviet manager of this level. Second, Soviet methods are for Soviet people and Soviet industry, which are immeasurably more effective than capitalist ones. No chance.
    1. WayKheThuo
      WayKheThuo 4 October 2020 15: 57
      0
      I already wrote that our power is the fans who have taken over the football club. The fans, when they get drunk, absolutely know exactly how to play and how to judge and how to run the club. Well, they got to the field ...

      This is the IDE! wink
  24. Alecsandr
    Alecsandr 4 October 2020 12: 25
    +2
    The country will be saved only by the Iron Curtain and an emphasis on its own strength. The further this experiment with "capitalism" in Russia continues, the more clearly the country's lagging behind in many areas of science and economics is felt. Trade with the benefit of the country's development can be done behind the Iron Curtain. and products that will always be in demand in the world, regardless of any sanctions. The main thing is that this understanding reaches the very last official, who even now dream of a wonderful life over the hill. So far, this has not been observed.
    1. iouris
      iouris 4 October 2020 13: 19
      0
      Quote: Alecsandr
      The country will be saved only by the Iron Curtain and an emphasis on one's own strength.

      Nothing can save you from Gref and the muzzles. It's too late to drink Borjomi. The question is closed.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 5 October 2020 08: 51
        +2
        When talking about our bosses, one should keep in mind their primary property. Namely, they are fools in the first place. Then everything else. Under the USSR, the people voluntarily (which is immeasurably more effective than any coercive measures) gave the authorities unprecedented control over all areas of their life. And the authorities shamefully, fluidly, without a chance got rid of it, not coping with their part. That is, the setting of tasks ended in failure.
        Why on earth would the Grefs now think that if they tighten the "digital stranglehold", their results will be better ?! Gref and company are dozens of times dumber, more uneducated and untrained than the Soviet bosses. Those have lost control, but these will cope ?! Gref, swimming in trillions of rubles, where the money supply levels out any of his shoals, is completely foolish, considering himself a god. Eh, people ...
    2. WayKheThuo
      WayKheThuo 4 October 2020 16: 10
      +2
      The country will be saved only by the iron curtain and self-reliance

      After such an experiment, only MO will remain from the country.
      I'm not saying that for the introduction of the Iron Curtain (LZ), not only conditional eggs are needed from the leadership, you also need the readiness of the people and the understanding that LZ is really important, because you have to really tighten your belts and not just work, but plow "from and to ". And for what? The corresponding ideas were not delivered.
      After the introduction of the ZhZ Kaliningrad will "fall off", followed by Vladik, Siberia will revolt behind them, and the cunning Crimeans will immediately stir up their republic, fortunately, the "stupid Muscovites" have rebuilt their infrastructure (okay, almost rebuilt).
      Along the way, only those regions will remain through which the pipeline goes to the West. Or parts of these regions.
      Is that what you want? Me not.
      So no curtains - on the contrary, openness, friendliness, tough pragmatism and a demonstration of readiness to defend their interests anywhere in the world, including by military means.
      But I agree with you, with such a comprador elite as ours, there will be no real upward movement - we will accurately land right on the level of the Empire of the 1913 model.
      Something like that.
      1. Alecsandr
        Alecsandr 4 October 2020 19: 32
        +1
        In the end, someday there will be eggs, as has happened more than once when the question of the country's survival arose. Only one thing is scary, if the limit of metal fatigue has come. How many times have the country and the people been broken through the knee.
        1. WayKheThuo
          WayKheThuo 4 October 2020 20: 29
          +1
          Only one thing is scary, whether the limit of metal fatigue has come

          Came, and for a long time. The people just won't understand all these jumps with the iron curtain. Really. Not only that, damn it, the retirement age was raised, so should we introduce ZHZ? I will say right away - at the slightest economic problems, riots will begin. No fools.
          And since we do not have a culture of communication between the authorities and the people - somehow, you know, it did not work out, everything will turn into a real "noticeable".
          Something you don't want, to tell the truth.
  25. Bogatyrev
    Bogatyrev 4 October 2020 13: 25
    +1
    In order to produce civilian products at military enterprises, it is necessary to have there correctly thinking people who are well acquainted with the civilian market, on the one hand, and who understand the prospects of the technologies available to military design bureaus, their level and usefulness.
    Moreover, they must be very competent and motivated people.
    And all the same, some industrial conflict is inevitable at military enterprises between civilian merchants and military designers-production workers. They will fight among themselves for funding and priority of orders and programs.
    So dual-use products are a big management problem.
    And we do not have the culture of solving it yet. The Americans have it.
  26. WayKheThuo
    WayKheThuo 4 October 2020 15: 52
    +1
    The author, we never, I underline it in red, circle it and put a few exclamation marks - we will never be able to compete on equal terms with the countries of at least Southeast Asia in terms of consumer goods production.
    The reason is simple and straightforward - we live in a global refrigerator. Our costs for heating, winter clothing, maintenance of roads and housing stock, production of food and other social services inflate the cost of our consumer goods to heaven.
    The only thing in which we can and must compete is advanced, difficult-to-reproduce machinery - AEZ, advanced weapons systems, space (to a lesser extent), as well as fundamental sciences and, of course, energy resources. And in general - any resources and services for their delivery - railway, air and sea transport, especially through the North. It is absolutely necessary to develop the mineral processing industries on the territory of the Russian Federation - this is really critical. That is, to close the cycle of production, delivery and processing. But not with such a government of the country, of course - for the former communist functionaries and, in fact, traitors can only scream about: "there is no time to swing" and talk about galoshes.
    I should also note that the idea of ​​producing typical consumer goods at military enterprises, by the forces of military designers and by the hands of the corresponding workers, speaks of the complete incompetence of Soviet, there are no "soviet" leaders. Their complete misunderstanding of the specifics and principles of the development of military products and consumer goods. This is by the way that the staff were selected correctly. Nifiga is not correct. In the late USSR, the placement of personnel was such that the Union eventually collapsed - that's the whole assessment of the placement of personnel.
    We need a flexible, pragmatic, paternalistic-capitalist economic model that allows us to keep leading positions in critical areas of the development of world civilization, without exchanging for any nonsense that can be bought for a penny a bunch, but with such a comprador elite, this is virtually impossible.
    I think so.
    1. Alecsandr
      Alecsandr 4 October 2020 19: 40
      +1
      And you think correctly, because in fact everything is so in reality.
      1. depressant
        depressant 5 October 2020 19: 54
        0
        Colleagues, you both think correctly, just do not take into account the fact that, firstly, we will not hang the iron curtain, but they are gradually installing it from the outside, and it may happen that they will install it, cutting off all supplies. Actually, any. And secondly, in case of war, when supplies of consumer goods "for a penny" may be interrupted. I believe that there should be enterprises producing critical civilian products - separate enterprises of a wide range. And these should not be military-industrial complex enterprises. But everything rests not on the frost, which increases the cost, but on the huge corruption component in it. Not in the salary that falls on the cost price. In warm South Korea, the wages of workers producing consumer goods are much higher than ours. Even China has overtaken us in this respect.
        Our workers are paid unworthily little.
  27. Iskazi
    Iskazi 4 October 2020 16: 18
    0
    The problem really exists, moreover, it can be solved ... but whether there is a desire to solve it and solve it is a serious question. Conversion in the USSR faced fierce opposition from the military-industrial complex and the party - no one wanted to change anything, everything and everyone was attached, connections were established ..., the system worked, how? - another question, now - the same ... , the only difference is in affiliation, in Soviet times - internal, in ours - external.
  28. ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 5 October 2020 00: 31
    0
    What does Putin have to do with it?
    It seems that he has a magic wand, forcing him to buy only Russian, and Russian is !!!
    By 2000, the military-industrial complex and civilian consumption are spheres not accessible to the industry of the Russian Federation, a priori. Machine-tool building and technologies lagged behind for decades, some of the competencies remained outside the Russian border. Starting from scratch was not economically viable at that time!
    Take, for example, the LM-2500, a gas turbine engine for the civilian market, found itself on the world market, then transferred to the military-industrial complex, but a priori the CIVIL version conquered the market.
    Diesel engines for the Navy, which are comparable to foreign ones, have never existed! And this is not Putin's fault, we do not have a consumer market for this level of engine building. Those. there must be a demand that forms production.
    As of today (2020 is ending !!!), the demand for ship-borne gas turbine engines is not known, the demand for gas turbine engines for Gazprom is minimal. And how should industry and design bureaus carry out R&D?
    There was a need for a high-power gas turbine engine, the GTD-110 was piled. a necessary thing for the market, but for ships, to work "on a screw" you need a gearbox, which in today's situation with the industry looks like a mockery)))
    We take electric motion and CPP.
    Name the manufacturers in our country who will make the gearbox, engine and propeller !!!
    It is necessary to attract young teams for R&D, civilian universities and the military, where, within the framework of student work, you can get innovations, and not the "blinkered" view of the KB
  29. Ruby
    Ruby 5 October 2020 08: 51
    0
    In this matter, you need to dance from the stove. That is, from the economy. The military-industrial complex will not be able to compete in the market with purely civilian production. At least with due to the fact that it has an order of magnitude more overhead. I generally keep quiet about time lags in decision making. Where businessmen will decide everything in a day or two, a large plant will be procrastinating for months. There are plenty of examples of this in life.
    We have an enterprise for the production of electrical products. And in the city there is a military-industrial complex, which is part of ROSTEKH. They make by the military the same products as we do. We met with them several times. We tried to start working. There is a huge factory with a bunch of machines, and I would gladly place some of the orders for components with them. But the price is completely inadequate for the civilian market, and the wild deadlines for making decisions put a bold cross on this topic.
    About their products. It does not go to the civil market precisely because of a completely non-competitive price. Everything goes to the enterprises of the holding.
  30. Antokha
    Antokha 5 October 2020 13: 59
    0
    There are no stoves either, but before in every house there were. There is nowhere to take ashes to sprinkle on your head.