Why a wheeled chassis was chosen for Malva JSC: discussion of the version

Not so long ago, the Burevestnik Central Research Institute, which is developing a promising self-propelled artillery gun as part of the Sketch development work, presented the appearance of its "brainchild". It is a self-propelled artillery gun, the name of which is designated as "Malva".

The SAO 2S43 project was implemented, as stated, based on the 152-mm 2A64 cannon. At the same time, in the mode of providing open data about the project, it was added that "it is possible to install and modernized versions of the gun."

The experts' attention was drawn to the fact that "Malva" is made on a wheeled chassis. In this regard, the conversation turned to a kind of tendency in which, in different armies of the world, new and promising CAO (ACS) are created precisely on platforms with a wheel formula. In the case of Malva, this is the 8x8.1 variation. We are talking about the platform of the Bryansk Automobile Plant BAZ-6910 of the so-called 20th series. According to some reports, we can talk specifically about the modification of four-axle platforms from BAZ, which is equipped, for example, with the Krasukha-2 electronic warfare system.

In the case of Malva, they preferred to abandon the platform version from the Minsk Wheeled Tractor Plant in favor of the option from the Bryansk manufacturers.

In this regard, the question is being discussed of why the wheeled chassis was chosen for the newest domestic artillery self-propelled gun.

Several versions have been put forward to answer this question. The main one is related to the fact that with the linear dimensions of the gun, it is the wheeled platform that allows you to maintain an acceptable mass of the entire artillery complex. "Putting" 2A64 on a tracked platform will actually get the second 42-ton Msta-S ACS. The wheeled chassis makes it possible to reduce the total weight of this self-propelled artillery weapon (SAO), and, according to the official website of the Bryansk Automobile Plant, 8x8.1 platforms allow traffic on all types of roads and terrain. That is, the wheeled platform does not mean that the self-propelled passability will significantly decrease. Losing weight also means increasing speed, which is important if the "Malva" needs to be transferred in a short time to one or another section of the operation.

Recall that within the framework of the Sketch R&D, other "flower" complexes are being developed: in addition to "Malva", for example, this is a 120-mm "Phlox" based on the "Ural" truck, namely the three-axle all-wheel drive "Ural-VV" with YaMZ- 6565 with 270 hp

Comments

[Zaurbek]

Because it was originally such a task. But why an armored jacket with a coalition was installed on KamAZ, I do not understand. At the very least, you can change places between KamAZ and Base.

[Thrifty]

There is also the question of how much our artillerymen need such a wheeled self-propelled gun, whether it came out successful, maybe it was necessary to put the 2A8 gun, it is more powerful, and the range of ammunition is richer. Our thoughts and the opinions of experts may be fundamentally different, perhaps this Malva will be created in the export version, it will not "take root" suddenly with us!

[credo]

Quote: Thrifty

There is also the question of how much our artillerymen need such a wheeled self-propelled gun, whether it came out successful, maybe it was necessary to put the 2A8 gun, it is more powerful, and the range of ammunition is richer. Our thoughts and the opinions of experts may be fundamentally different, perhaps this Malva will be created in the export version, it will not "take root" suddenly with us!

Most likely, the ACS is being prepared for export to southern countries. There, such a layout option will be preferable for the buyer.

[Vicontas]

Wheels are, in addition to speed and mobility, also a requirement for roads with good coverage. The American Donnie recently threatened to thrust his troops from Germany into the Baltic states! Closer to the borders of Russia, so for an old woman in Europe this cannon on wheels will definitely fit!

[antivirus]

wheel ----------- for euro highway. the conquerors will come to Berlin again

[novel66]

but surely it is a cannon, not a howitzer?

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: novel xnumx

but surely it is a cannon, not a howitzer?

Are you sitting at the back of school at school? First !! It is determined not by the caliber of the product, but by the length of the barrel of the product in calibers.

[Pereira]

You, too, should change seats closer. This is also determined by the elevation angle.
This is a cannon

And this is a cannon

And this is a howitzer

And this is a howitzer

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Pereira

You, too, should change seats closer. This is also determined by the elevation angle.

And you get away. A lot of knowledge, a lot of sadness.
What does not happen. Anti-aircraft guns at tanks with direct fire, like howitzers - anti-tank guns?
Katyusha shot down an anti-aircraft gun?
There are general rules and exceptions.
besides the regiment, there are also mountain, landing ...

[Topgun]

it would not hurt you to go to school too
projectile speed and variable charge - that's what you need to look at !!!
the barrel of the howitzer and the long one can make it to increase the accuracy, and the cannon has a short one for fighting in the city !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Topgun

it would not hurt you to go to school too
projectile speed and variable charge - that's what you need to look at !!!
the barrel of the howitzer and the long one can make it to increase the accuracy, and the cannon has a short one for fighting in the city !!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t want to go to school, but Fedya must, we must! Long barrel increased range. Projectile speed does not matter for howitzers, mortars, mortars. Variable charge

War charges for rounds of ammunition loading are constant. They are used for firing cannons and can be full or reduced. The former have an extremely large amount of gunpowder for a given sample of guns, and the latter have a reduced one. Reduced warheads increase the survivability of the gun barrel when firing at medium ranges and provide a more hinged trajectory.
In most cases, shots of separate case loading are equipped with variable warheads and much less often with constant ones.

Live yourself in a happy ignorance.

[Ilshat]

Quote: Mavrikiy

It is determined not by the caliber of the product, but by the length of the barrel of the product in calibers

And why do modern howitzers have barrels longer than 50 calibers ?!
Howitzer - for shooting from closed positions!
Of course, you can also direct fire at tanks, but this is not the main purpose ...

[Skifotavr]

Quote: Mavrikiy

It is determined not by the caliber of the product, but by the length of the barrel of the product in calibers.

Earlier it was really so, I somehow even demonstrated a video, but now everything is mixed up. On this topic, wars are constantly being waged in the comments. Now the whole point is what we are talking about - the barrel or the weapons complex.

[Lopatov]

Of course a howitzer. For she has access to hinged trajectories.

[Doliva63]

Quote: Spade

Of course a howitzer. For she has access to hinged trajectories.

And the cannon is not available when it shoots when the target height is exceeded? A tank can shoot from a cannon and generally with the PDO

[Lopatov]

Quote: Doliva63

And the cannon is not available when it shoots with the height of the target?

Not accessible due to limited charges, not only due to maximum elevation angle

Quote: Doliva63

A tank from a cannon and in general with the PDO can shoot wassat

All cannons can fire "with PDO"

[Doliva63]

Quote: Spade

Quote: Doliva63

And the cannon is not available when it shoots with the height of the target?

Not accessible due to limited charges, not only due to maximum elevation angle

Quote: Doliva63

A tank from a cannon and in general with the PDO can shoot wassat

All cannons can fire "with PDO"

I did not understand about the "limited charge" within the standard range.
Well, that is, all cannons can shoot on a "hinged trajectory", like howitzers? So what's the difference ?!

[Lopatov]

Quote: Doliva63

I did not understand about the "limited charge" within the standard range.

The howitzer has a lower minimum charge. That allows her to shoot at a lower initial speed.
This, in turn, allows for a steeper trajectory and a larger angle of incidence.

Quote: Doliva63

Well, that is, all cannons can shoot on a "hinged trajectory", like howitzers?

Even if we disregard the variable charge, the 2A36 cannon has a maximum elevation angle of 57 degrees, and the "long" 2A65 howitzer has 70 degrees.

[Doliva63]

Quote: Spade

Quote: Doliva63

I did not understand about the "limited charge" within the standard range.

The howitzer has a lower minimum charge. That allows her to shoot at a lower initial speed.
This, in turn, allows for a steeper trajectory and a larger angle of incidence.

Quote: Doliva63

Well, that is, all cannons can shoot on a "hinged trajectory", like howitzers?

Even if we disregard the variable charge, the 2A36 cannon has a maximum elevation angle of 57 degrees, and the "long" 2A65 howitzer has 70 degrees.

To increase the range of charges at the gun and raise the angle to 70 - how will it differ from a howitzer? And by the way, why don't they do that? Golden mean!

[Lopatov]

Quote: Doliva63

Increase the charge range of the cannon and raise the angle to 70

And it will be a completely new weapon. Only the trunk will remain from the old, everything else will have to be changed.

And it will come out howitzer howitzer.

[Doliva63]

Quote: Spade

Quote: Doliva63

Increase the charge range of the cannon and raise the angle to 70

And it will be a completely new weapon. Only the trunk will remain from the old, everything else will have to be changed.

And it will come out howitzer howitzer.

So the trunk is the most important thing. The main thing is to complete the tasks!

[Lopatov]

Quote: Doliva63

So the trunk is the most important thing.

No.

[Doliva63]

Quote: Spade

Quote: Doliva63

So the trunk is the most important thing.

No.

Yes. For to stick everything else to a good trunk is nothing but trifles.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Doliva63

Yes. For to stick everything else to a good trunk is nothing but trifles.

These are not small things at all. The anti-rollback ones are optimized for certain loads, the automatics of the tool are similar, the lifting-swivel ones due to the new elevation angles need others, the lower carriage is similar.

And even the barrel is optimized for certain loads when fired.

[Ilya_Nsk]

Any cannon will become a howitzer if the elevation angle exceeds 45%. Nor will it need to be placed on the slope.

[venik]

Quote: Spade

Of course a howitzer. For she has access to hinged trajectories.

=======
Sorry! Of course, I'm not an artilleryman (another specialty). But, when "pidzhachil", had to talk to the gunners, by the way, we were neighbors in the officer's "hostel". So they explained the difference to me: the cannon is designed for "flat" fire, and the howitzer is for "mounted" fire. They had a 122 mm D-30 (if I'm not mistaken). And to the question "How do you shoot?" received the answer: "And we can do this and that!" ... So you have "howitzer guns"? "Well, sort of, although technically - we are a" howitzer "battery!

[Lopatov]

Quote: venik

So you have "howitzer guns"?

Soviet "cannon howitzers" were armed with two types of ammunition, "cannon shells" and "howitzer grenades", so it is better not to interfere with this term.

About the destination, right. But if you look at the 122 mm D-30 howitzer (38 caliber barrel length) and the 122 mm D-74 cannon (53 caliber barrel length), we find that the cannon fires a conventional projectile further (24 km) than the active-rocket howitzer (22).

So not "formally" but really, the D-30 is a howitzer

And here we are discussing something else.
Modern "long" howitzers that are longer than cannons.
Howitzer 2S35 is a 52 caliber barrel length, a 2S5 cannon is 47 calibers

[venik]

Quote: Spade

And here we are discussing something else.
Modern "long" howitzers that are longer than cannons.
Howitzer 2S35 is a 52 caliber barrel length, a 2S5 cannon is 47 calibers

========
And how then to separate them ???

[Lopatov]

Quote: venik

And how then to separate them ???

Along accessible trajectories.
If a gun can shoot with angles of incidence close to mortar (which means it can work at targets behind local cover, for example, on the opposite slopes of heights), then this is a howitzer.

[venik]

Quote: Spade

If a gun can shoot with angles of incidence close to mortar (which means it can work at targets behind local cover, for example, on the opposite slopes of heights), then this is a howitzer.

========
And if, at the same time, "direct fire" on armored vehicles can "beat"? Here is "NONA" - who is this? Cannon, howitzer or mortar ??? But they also have cumulative shells in the kit ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: venik

Here is "NONA" - who is this? Cannon, howitzer or mortar ???

Officially a "weapon".
Unofficially considered a mortar howitzer

She could become a cannon. Recoilless. But she didn't.

Quote: venik

But they also have cumulative shells in the kit ...

Polish "Cancer" clean mortar. But they developed a cumulative mine with a semi-active laser seeker with the use of Soviet technologies ("Kvitnik"), which were freshly loved by the Ukrainians. Fight off Russian tanks with open OP

[Doliva63]

Quote: Spade

Quote: venik

And how then to separate them ???

Along accessible trajectories.
If a gun can shoot with angles of incidence close to mortar (which means it can work at targets behind local cover, for example, on the opposite slopes of heights), then this is a howitzer.

Well, that's clearer, thanks!

[Kaw]

More questions arise as to why a hopelessly outdated gun is used there. And the chassis is too bulky. A similar French Caesar cannon is mounted on a compact three-axle truck.

[loki565]

A similar French weapon "Caesar" is installed on a compact three-axle truck.

Also there is 8x8

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Kaw

A similar French weapon "Caesar" is installed on a compact three-axle truck.

Quote: loki565

Also there is 8x8

Well, he's French. "Alain Delon does not drink cologne" (Nautilus).

[prodi]

for comparison with more "autonomous" counterparts, there should be a vehicle nearby at least with a minimum transportable ammunition

[Engineer]

The question in the title is not correct. It should sound like this: Why was the fearsome 2A64 chosen for Malva? Why even put an Msta howitzer on wheels when there is a Coalition howitzer? That's the question.

[svp67]

Quote: Engineer

Why even put an Msta howitzer on wheels when there is a Coalition howitzer?

And who said that they won't put it on it over time? But how many weapons are there for the Coalition now? They use what they have, and even so it is easier to compare it with a towed weapon, to understand all the pros and cons.

[Hey]

Why was the fearsome 2A64 chosen for Malva JSC? Why even put an Msta howitzer on wheels when there is a Coalition howitzer?

Most likely the concept is just being worked out. (Cheaper). If the military likes it, they will upgrade it.

[bk0010]

One Coalition is worth (sort of) like three Msty. And she has not yet passed the state tests (again, it seems).

[5-9]

Because this is a priori a cheap option, just a towed howitzer to which wheels are attached that do not detach.
These wheeled crafts have nothing to do with normal ACS with AZ and 10 vysr / min.

[Vadim237]

Because the tracked chassis is much more expensive than the wheeled chassis and more difficult to maintain.

[Yrec]

Is it too long in appearance, will it stand on the railway platform?

[Grits]

Quote: Yrec

It looks too long,

Indeed, it is not clear why it is impossible to move it closer to the cockpit? let the barrel hang over the cockpit.

[Alex777]

So that the trunk does not cling to the bridge.

[Doliva63]

Quote: Gritsa

Quote: Yrec

It looks too long,

Indeed, it is not clear why it is impossible to move it closer to the cockpit? let the barrel hang over the cockpit.

For some reason, I also thought so. But maybe we do not know all the ideas of the designers.

[Ilshat]

Quote: Gritsa

why not move it closer to the cockpit? let the barrel hang on the cockpit

You can not.
Where will the rollback be?
I would have had to lift up the whole machine ...
And how does the calculation work?
It is not convenient to feed shells, and there is no place.

[Zaurbek]

There is also a double armored cabin and MTO .... they weigh not sickly. The weighting is probably like this

[Kaw]

Quote: Engineer

The question in the title is not correct. It should sound like this: Why was the fearsome 2A64 chosen for Malva?

Most likely, because the long barrel for the new guns had to be drilled with some imported machine, and sanctions were introduced, and it became impossible to purchase these machines. I think.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Kaw

Most likely because the long barrel for new guns

Not much longer than the old 47 gauge

Everything is simpler, there is ammunition for the 2S19 / 2A65, including in storage. There is also a production system for such ammunition.

And for the 2S35 there are no ammunition reserves, the production system is just being created

[Alex777]

Again, export is better.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Alex777

Again, export is better.

?
2S19 is not a very common artillery system

[Alex777]

And the ammunition for her?
Are they not cheaper?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Alex777

And the ammunition for her?

Accordingly, ammunition is not particularly common.

[Alex777]

If ammunition is also expensive, then I don't understand the purpose of this development.
The proposal to use it in the National Guard did not meet with understanding among colleagues.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Alex777

If ammunition is also expensive, then I don't understand the purpose of this development.

We have about two hundred old 2A65s, which are definitely outdated and do not meet modern requirements.

Quote: Alex777

The proposal to use it in the National Guard did not meet with understanding among colleagues.

As far as I remember, the 99th Don had regimental-level anti-aircraft artillery battalions. D-30 battery, 120 mortar battery and charger battery

Therefore, for Rosgvardia "Phlox" is enough for the eyes

[Koval Sergey]

It is not a fact that it is in this configuration that the troops will go.

[alexander 2]

Of course it won't. After all, this is a prototype. This means there will certainly be changes. May be significant. For example, there will definitely not be an injector. Why is he there?