Missile fired without permission: In Iran, presented data on the case of a strike on a Ukrainian liner

In Iran, published preliminary investigation data on the case of a downed passenger plane of the Ukrainian airline UIA. Recall that we are talking about a plane that was shot down in early January by an Iranian anti-aircraft missile at the time of take-off. Then the Iranian air defense system was put on high alert, as an "American response" to missile attacks on US bases in Iraq was expected.

According to the military prosecutor of Tehran, Golyam Abbas Torki, a study of the data revealed that the rocket that shot down the Ukrainian airliner was fired “without permission”. At the same time, the military prosecutor of the Iranian capital said that the consequence excluded the possibility of the impact of electronic warfare systems on Iranian air defense.

Golem Abbas Torquay confirmed the evidence that the human factor was the cause of the strike. At the moment, three people are in custody, including the commander of the calculation of the anti-aircraft missile complex of the IRGC. Earlier it was reported that the commander gave the order to attack the target without coordination with the higher command, "because he could not communicate in a timely manner."

It is important to note that the IRGC pleaded guilty to striking at an UIA aircraft.

Earlier, Iran announced the transfer of flight recorders of a downed French airliner. After that, Ukraine began to actively demand the transfer of "black boxes" to itself. In addition, Kiev expects large compensation from Tehran. Earlier, Iran promised to pay the families of the victims about 900 thousand dollars.

Comments

[Courier]

After Iran shot down the plane, I remember two days here everyone denied his guilt, blaming the Americans. Absolutely everyone denied, except the citizens of Israel.

[Trevis]

Surnames list? Find them!

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: Courier

except citizens of Israel.

For citizens of Israel, Iran is always to blame for everything.

[military_cat]

The mess. America must always be to blame for everything!

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: military_cat

The mess. America must always be to blame for everything!

From the point of view of Iran it is. The Iranian passenger plane was shot down by the Americans. No one denies.

[doubovitski]

Quote: Sergey Medvedev

Quote: Courier

except citizens of Israel.

For citizens of Israel, Iran is always to blame for everything.

Even if no one shot at the plane, the culprit would still be there.

[Zeev zeev]

For Israeli citizens who come here, Middle Eastern cuisine is much more familiar and understandable than for the vast majority of users. Therefore, we knew who shot down the plane.

[K-36]

Well, here I am, for example, not a citizen of Israel. However, I will bring two of my posts to this topic.
1 post (screen January 12):
I served in the crew of the 12th anti-aircraft missile system "Slave" of the Odessa air defense anti-aircraft missile brigade. In 1980, a low-speed radio-contrast aircraft left our territory towards Iran. At that time, my unit was on alert. Naturally, the brigade headquarters set us the task "to capture, accompany / in sight / and be ready to launch the missile immediately upon receiving the command." We have completed everything and reported on it. We only waited for the Start command. And she was not there. All nerves in a string. Above our headquarters is the combined command post of air defense and the civil sector of the EU ATC. From there the Team was supposed to come. And there everything was sorted out in order to prevent a fatal mistake. And finally, the "END OUT" command sounded. Like a mountain off your shoulders !!! It turns out that the 2nd pilot forgot to change the quartz in the "friend or foe" identification system at the set time. And this is the USSR with a long tradition of air defense and with a built-up system for analyzing the situation. And here on you - the human factor. Gouge the 2nd pilot. Who could send himself and all innocent passengers to the next world.
This is to explain a little what the air defense missile defense is, and sometimes it happens when at a given moment in time you are personally responsible for the assigned portion of the sky!

[K-36]

And here is the post 2 (screen January 14):
How many Skrynnik Yury Miikhaylovich did not search in the lists of Honored Pilots of Russia, he did not find. But found Sytnik Yu.M. Which is still a civilian pilot. And his knowledge of the army, and even more so about air defense air defense, is clearly literary and artistic. For any anti-aircraft defense knows that to fire a missile inside the territory of the country, an air defense system can only be by special order from above.
As a person who served in the air defense system, I can say this at any level. I have the honor to assume that such an order was issued by the IRGC command, and it was called as a response to Trump's statement about launching missile strikes on 52 targets in Iran. The IRGC command understood that the objects controlled by the IRGC were in the very first places on this list. Therefore, the order could be as follows: "Shoot down all aircraft approaching a distance of NN km to the protected object." At the same time, the command of the IRGC was obliged to go to the country's leadership with the argumentation of the ban on flights over the country. I believe that such an action was taken by the IRGC, but did not receive support from the country's Supreme Power.
Now the main question. Why did the ZP complex fire? I have only two sound assumptions.
1. At the complex, the interrogator rendered "friend or foe", so they did not see the transponder response ..
2. The transponder response was seen, but the order to fire was requested from the higher command. And they ran into the cunning ... the answer made in the style of Gorbachev's arrival of Rust: "To act in accordance with the previously received order!"
They executed the order.
My Summary: Iran’s air defense, as a country as a whole, needs serious revision. However, this is hindered by the Supreme Government’s distrust of the IRGC forces. I don’t know how to fix this. But with a high degree of certainty I can assume a repeat of the incident in a similar situation for Iran.

[Tuzik]

Beautifully laid out, that is, you assume that about the lack of communication they lie? This could not be?

[K-36]

I answer for the comrade Tuzik (Andrey): I believe that the lack of communication with the higher headquarters could really "pull" the nerves of the hot IRGC member (provided that he had previously received an order to shoot down everything that is N km closer to the guarded object).
But ... with such a message to the press they can even cover up a high-ranking military IRGC that directly issued the Order (which was executed). Something like this...
The situation is very similar to my Odessa episode, when I almost shot down my An-24 with diplomats over the Black Sea.

[Tuzik]

I agree, it is logical to cover up a big shot with this option. It’s interesting if it’s really so, will they reimburse the lads with this money, or simply no one else will hear them?

[Mik13]

Quote: K-36

Now the main question. Why did the ZP complex fire? I have only two sound assumptions.
1. At the complex, the interrogator rendered "friend or foe", so they did not see the transponder response ..
2. We saw the response of the transponder, but requested a firing order

As I understand it, we have again opened the season of air defense experts ...
The friend or foe system is installed only on military aircraft. Military air defense systems do not have equipment for working with transponders. This is a civilian vehicle.
Air Defense learns about civil aircraft from air traffic control services - and such interaction is organized "at the very top".

Calculation of the complex could not see the response of the transponder - since this complex never had and does not have equipment for working with the transponder. And there is no point in such equipment at the complex - for obvious reasons.

So the most plausible version is Iranian.

[K-36]

I frankly admit that I am not very fussy about equipping civil aircraft with "friend or foe" respondents, but my experience (1978 - 1980) of service on the S-125 air defense system left in my memory a persistent conviction that there are respondents there. This is confirmed by my episode over the Black Sea in 1980. And yes - I went into the P-12 radar cockpit more than once or twice, and on VIKO I saw the response signals "my own" of our planes landing at the Odessa civil airport ("School").
And even more than that: the P-12 operator made a request for "friend or foe" on EVERY plane, and upon receiving an answer made an entry in a special stitched log indicating the escort time. The word TRANSPONDER then in all air defense was not known by anyone, it appeared already in the 21st century. Something like that, sorry.

[doubovitski]

Quote: K-36

I frankly admit that I am not very fussy about equipping civil aircraft with "friend or foe" respondents, but my experience (1978 - 1980) of service on the S-125 air defense system left in my memory a persistent conviction that there are respondents there. This is confirmed by my episode over the Black Sea in 1980. And yes - I went into the P-12 radar cockpit more than once or twice, and on VIKO I saw the response signals "my own" of our planes landing at the Odessa civil airport ("School").
And even more than that: the P-12 operator made a request for "friend or foe" on EVERY plane, and upon receiving an answer made an entry in a special stitched log indicating the escort time. The word TRANSPONDER then in all air defense was not known by anyone, it appeared already in the 21st century. Something like that, sorry.

I will ask a question on the other hand. Installation of a recognition system on civilian airplanes. Of which there is a hell of a lot, and they, like fleas scurrying around the world, land and are served by other people's services, including enemy ones. As with the preservation of state secrets, for stealing this box is simple. For during periods of flight interruption the vessels stand without their own guard. It seems to me that this cannot be in principle.

[Roman123567]

They still deny .. judging by the minuses .. Themselves minus themselves ..))

[Jack O'Neill]

After Iran shot down the plane, I remember two days here everyone denied his guilt, blaming the Americans. Absolutely everyone denied, except the citizens of Israel.

I am Russian, I am also one of the first who wrote about the fact that I brought down Iran, I am also the first who threw proofs at all.

[orionvitt]

without coordination with the higher command, "because I could not get in touch in a timely manner."

In general, this (and everything else) says only one thing. On the low level of professionalism of Iranian air defense.

[SOVIET UNION 2]

Low level of professionalism? And how much time is allotted for approval? When the Turks shot down our plane, was it a low level of professionalism? When the captain of the Israeli Army shot down a plane, is this also a low level of professionalism? And when was our Il shot down? Did non-professionals work there? Well, are the Syrians shot down? In Syria, is every settlement on its own? Or is it purely Russian, self-employed, self-isolated, self-healing, self-defending, self-pensioner?

[orionvitt]

Quote: SOVIET UNION 2

Or is it purely Russian, self-employed, self-isolated, self-healing, self-defending, self-pensioner?

What is this stream of consciousness? To begin with, the normal calculation of air defense, perfectly sees who flies, where it flies from, where it flies, and even why it flies. He sees altitude, speed, azimuth and a bunch of different parameters. But, to bring down a plane that just flew out of the capital's airport, not only to confuse a Boeing with a rocket, I don’t even know what to call it. Unprofessionalism is the smallest epithet that can be used to describe this incident. Unless of course everything is done intentionally. But this is a conspiracy theory.

[Pavel57]

At one time, the Iraqi operator decided to coordinate a strike on a group of Israeli aircraft. As a result, we got a bombed nuclear object.

[Cyril G ...]

To begin with, there is no single system there. This SAM was part of the IRGC.

[forest1]

Star-shaped six-pointed ears stick out here.

[Blackmokona]

The State Department is clearly responsible for your comments.

[Avior]

I read and the question arises
Did the crew commander order to shoot only after agreement?
In the case of a large airliner, it can be seen from afar, it was a couple of minutes to ring by telephone, and this is a controversial option.
And if it was an American rocket or a supersonic fighter at an extremely low altitude, he didn’t have a chance to coordinate the strike, he probably didn’t have time.

[huntsman650]

No need to justify. The calculation does not have the right to independently decide on shelling targets, it is obliged to report to the CP. In excitement, they pressed the start button or there was a gathering in the machine. Because of the gouging, innocent people died. They shot down a target inside the country, hot Iranian guys. The mind is incomprehensible. There is a clear lack of professionalism, the lack of a management system and alerts on goals. According to the parameters of the target’s movement, even a 3rd-year parsing can classify the target. Rocket and airplane speeds are different. There are no brains at all or sabotage.

[Avior]

I don't justify anyone
And I have no doubt that they got by accident and by mistake.
But I wonder
If the calculation of an air defense system with a radius of action of 15 km will be requested by phone in a combat situation - I recall, it was in a combat situation, at that moment the Iranians attacked the Americans and awaited a response from them about permission to launch, what will the American f-16 For example, with this air defense system long before launch from such a distance?
And the question is, do I see the switchman in the person of the calculation commander?

[huntsman650]

The radius of the SOC is 45 km, to confuse a cow in the sky with a bird, you still have to try))). What kind of tel., Mobile, then generally a blockage, with them, what are you talking about?))) It's like hunting, it is forbidden to shoot at a rustle, everyone knows. But there are those who shoot and beaters in different regions of the country die every year.

[Avior]

. Target Detection Station (SOC) -
Coherent pulse radar of the centimeter wave range, capable of detecting targets with a probability of 0,6-0,8 at ranges:

aircraft - 25-27 km;
UAV - 9-15 km;
Helicopter on the ground with rotating propellers - 6-7 km;
helicopter hovering in the air - 13-20 km;
a helicopter performing a "jump" from the ground to a height of 20 m - 12 km.

Subtlety in probability
If you take the maximum, and you need to take it when calculating the time, then the range drops significantly
And also time for detection, tying the track and more.

[Normal ok]

Quote: Avior

. Target Detection Station (SOC) -
Coherent pulse radar of the centimeter wave range, capable of detecting targets with a probability of 0,6-0,8 at ranges:

aircraft - 25-27 km;
UAV - 9-15 km;
Helicopter on the ground with rotating propellers - 6-7 km;
helicopter hovering in the air - 13-20 km;
a helicopter performing a "jump" from the ground to a height of 20 m - 12 km.

Subtlety in probability
If you take the maximum, and you need to take it when calculating the time, then the range drops significantly
And also time for detection, tying the track and more.

The plane was shot down during climb immediately after departure from the capital's airfield. Apparently, the calculation covers this very airport. This is the height of stupidity. What does the parameter you specify have to do with it?

[huntsman650]

For 13 years I worked on the marine version of the Torah, the dagger, and you quote me excerpts from Wikipedia))), they have the same SAMs. I personally observed the separation of targets, the launch of a missile target from an RTO at a range of 42 km.

[Avior]

I respect specialists, they always say only what they know for sure
The daggers from Thor’s daggers, it’s true, now I’m waiting for you to write that they have the same radar and other electronics, we didn’t discuss the missiles, but the electronics of the complex

[huntsman650]

One of the modernized options on the SF has SOC from the land option, on the BOD.

[Avior]

But then you wrote 45 km not about him

[huntsman650]

And you wrote about 15)))

[Avior]

The range of the complex is 15

[huntsman650]

Less))), if about DGZP SAM)))

[Avior]

You interpret the numbers so freely that I don’t see any reason to argue

[huntsman650]

Even in open sources, the far border of the affected area is less than 15 km)))

[huntsman650]

Although there may be new missiles in modernized complexes fly further.

[Cyril G ...]

No one justifies here, but the questions remain. And not one.

[huntsman650]

The eternal question, who is to blame and what to do?

[Zaurbek]

The liner took off. He was not visible. Confused with the Kyrgyz Republic, probably. But I, like a teapot, have questions:
1. When they were near the civilian airport, did they have a take-off and landing schedule?
2. Does Boeing somehow differ in EPR from the Kyrgyz Republic?
3. If they were expecting a US attack, maybe it was worth stopping civilian flights?

[Blackmokona]

1. Of course
2.Very strong
3. It was worth it and the military asked to do it. But the government was against it. Here it is to blame first

[Avior]

It was an operation by the IRGC, not the military

[Cyril G ...]

Iran decided not to give an information guide and merged ... But it harbored a grudge. In fact, be that as it may, there are tsuzwang.

And the story is extremely muddy, in my opinion. And do not forget the possibility of internal showdown between the Army and the IRGC, which even acquired its own Air Force, long-range drones, too, by the way in their part

[prior]

UIA aircraft are allowed to be shot down without approval.
Ukraine never negotiates the destruction of other people's aircraft, examples are enough that the Malaysian Boeing, that Tupolev Siberia Airlines ....

[Maximilian37]

Blasphemously, I hope you will not find yourself, ever, in some sort of plane that is allowed to shoot down anytime, anywhere.

[prior]

But to bring down the Malaysian Boeing, lie and blame Russia for this crime is not blasphemous?

[Red Dragon]

I really hope that you will find yourself in some sort of passenger plane that can be shot down without coordination, if you write this.

[prior]

Alas, I would have to scrape together a pensioner for housing and communal services. And you about some sort of flying-planes ....

[Normal ok]

Quote: prior

Alas, I would have to scrape together a pensioner for housing and communal services. And you about some sort of flying-planes ....

This means that a plane shot down in this way will fall on your house.

[Roman1970_1]

I hope you find yourself in one of them

[5-9]

It’s not at all a fact that this was really so ... then the hot Israeli guys do not believe the Iranian fanatics in anything, then they unconditionally accept this version .... although if this is true, then the IRGC are level 80 stupid and gouging ...

[Jack O'Neill]

According to the military prosecutor of Tehran, Golyam Abbas Torki, a study of the data revealed that the rocket that shot down the Ukrainian airliner was fired “without permission”. At the same time, the military prosecutor of the Iranian capital said that the possibility of the impact of electronic warfare systems on Iranian air defense was ruled out

Again otmaza.
Initially, Iran said that they had confused the on-line with the Kyrgyz Republic, then. that the liner "turned sharply" to a "secret" object.
Iran either intentionally shot down a civilian airliner, or there were simply vegetables in the calculation. Confuse Boeing with the KR?
Is it easy to confuse a shepherd dog with a chihuahua? Well, if you're especially gifted, then maybe ...
The calculation knew that it launched a missile launcher on a civilian airliner, I have no doubt about this.
Now just a high-ranking official is being dismissed, which gave the order to bring down a civilian airliner. Calculation of air defense systems became scapegoats, just.

It is important to note that the IRGC pleaded guilty to striking at an UIA aircraft.

When they pressed it against the wall, then they recognized it. There were already plenty of proofs; Iran could not get out already.

[Polymer]

Quote: Jack O'Neill

Initially, Iran said that they had confused the on-line with the Kyrgyz Republic, then. that the liner "turned sharply" to a "secret" object.
Iran either intentionally shot down a civilian airliner, or there were simply vegetables in the calculation. Confuse Boeing with the KR?

All of us here can only speculate and guess, for sure none of the commentators can know all the details. And yet, as one of the versions - that a civilian liner can become a rocket, the United States itself tried hard to prove (remember 9/11). And the circumstance "that the liner" sharply turned "to a" secret "object" could just have prompted the commander of the calculation to give the order to destroy the target.

[Jack O'Neill]

And yet, as one of the versions - that the civilian airliner can become a rocket, the USA itself tried hard to prove (remember 9/11).

The Americans, too, otmazyvatsya, because they badly scammed.

[Narak-zempo]

Or is it possible to extinguish an individual with MH17 by this downfall and close both cases, so to speak, by mutual settlement?

[Cristall]

Quote: Narak-zempo

And can this incident be used to repay the incident with MH17 and close both cases, so to speak, with mutual settlement?

Wow, offsets of downed airliners ..
Moreover, along the Ukraine / Iran line with the Mir / RF line.
First, by moral standards, this is blasphemous.
Secondly, both there and there is a mistake. Taking the liner for a military target.
As for Iran, they could act in the American way.
Partially admit guilt with justification of the wartime situation (expectation of a US response) - pay compensation. And everyone will disperse.
In general, it is worth taking protection systems on liners, it painfully often knocks them down.
Huge, visible from afar and having a schedule liners are still confused and knocked down.
The frequency and area of ​​use of liners is increasing. And on every part of the planet, regardless of the events below, civilian airlines can fly, and events cannot be predicted.
And more and more liners get off missiles.
According to the US Department of State, since the 1970s, more than 40 civilian aircraft in the world have been attacked with man-portable air defense systems. At the same time, 25 aircraft were shot down, killing more than 600 people.
MANTA system (MANpads Threat Avoidance) for example from MANPADS

[Narak-zempo]

And what does not offset? First, the Ukrainians were shot down, then the Ukrainians were shot down. Quits.

[Cristall]

Quote: Narak-zempo

And what does not offset? First, the Ukrainians were shot down, then the Ukrainians were shot down. Quits.

Yes, it’s just not ethical to reason even a liner for a liner. Moreover, the Iranians are already suffering. Either their Americans were shot down by the Iranians themselves in the Ukrainian Boeing. And they still grabbed ours.
Secondly, there is clear evidence + recognition of the Iranians themselves about the downing.
And with MH 17, the trial has not yet ended.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Cristall

And with MH 17, the trial has not yet ended.

So that court goes with one goal, to appoint Russia to blame, although it is clear who shot down.