Bookmark of two UDC for the Russian Navy in Kerch moved

The start of the construction of two universal helicopter-carrying dock ships is postponed; the UVKD tab planned for June 29 was postponed to a later date; a new date has not yet been determined. This was reported by TASS with reference to a source close to the shipbuilding industry.

Bookmarks will not be on June 29th. She is transferred. The exact date has not been set, it is still floating. The plant is ready for laying

- the agency leads the words of the source.

The cause of the transfer is not called, perhaps it is associated with the pandemic of the coronavirus. There have been no official applications to this effect.

In May this year, it became known that the Ministry of Defense signed a contract for the construction of two universal landing ships for the Navy. fleet. The laying and construction of the ships will be carried out at the Gulf of Kerch shipyard. It was also reported that the domestic universal landing ships will be given the names Sevastopol and Vladivostok intended for helicopter carriers of the Mistral type ordered from France. This decision was made by the General Staff of the Navy.

The lead ship will be part of the Russian Navy until 2027, the first production ship - until 2030. Initially, the displacement of ships should not exceed 15 thousand tons, and the number of helicopters on board - no more than ten. Later, information appeared that the Navy had finally decided on the parameters of the ships being laid and they would receive a displacement of 25 thousand tons.

It is planned that the UDC will carry 20 heavy helicopters and will be able to carry up to two battalions of marines with a total number of up to 900 people.

Comments

[Thrifty]

Did you start to cut metal though? The point is not the fact of the laying ceremony, it is the beginning of the process of building helicopter carriers for our fleets!

[NIKN]

Against the background of two previous news, we are going our own way ... an asymmetric answer.

[Magog]

I can understand why the Americans need the UDC (the idea of ​​building them arose during the Vietnam War), but for Russia such ships seem redundant and far-fetched idea. Does our military doctrine somehow justify the landing of amphibious assault forces on the coast of the "banana republics"? It is also difficult to imagine amphibious assault forces in conflicts like Syria ... One can understand the validity of preserving the large landing ships from the times of the USSR: let them live to the end of their resource, somehow adapt them to the current tasks of the fleet - and for scrapping. Explain to someone the tasks of the UDC in our fleet today.

[CommanderDIVA]

Apparently with an eye on the African coast and the Middle East, washed by the Mediterranean and Red Seas, but the straits are controlled by Turkey, and the Suez Canal Egypt, can be built for the Pacific Fleet with the subsequent transition to Vladivostok

[Magog]

And why are they for the Pacific Fleet?

[Freeman]

Quote: Magog

And why are they for the Pacific Fleet?

Control the Horn of Africa and Uganda through Kenya.
And the second on the CSF, control the Gulf of Guinea and southern Africa

Russian corporations in Africa
https://im.kommersant.ru/ISSUES.PHOTO/SF/2008/030/sf_04082008_v05_f_b.gif

[donavi49]

Well then, you will have to disband 5 Marine Corps brigades, or reorganize them into coastal defense troops. What kind of marines, if she didn’t sniff the sea?

Current BDK + Grena - are not something significant in modern realities. I gave an example of how during the rehearsal of exercises, at the Pacific Fleet Oslyabya ran aground. As a result, they pulled off for two days, called the most powerful tug, damaged the ship, removed the captain and gave him a three-ruble note (conditionally).

In combat conditions, this is the death of the ship, the failure of the landing operation in this sector, as it was stretched across and others could no longer approach.

Ekspeditsionnikov generally even less applicable. For throwing amphibious groups away from the coast - there is no materiel level of the Chinese though. Throwing it into the bay is even less likely than the Soviet BDK, because the size is larger, the draft is greater, the chance to land is even higher.

Some application according to the modern concept is possible only with any vertical coverage, using the DKVD and UDK groups at the landing site, and then either:
- buildup of forces of the American type, auxiliary fleet through all sorts of advanced expeditionary bases.

- quickly run into the nearest port, seize it and build a full supply through it.

[NIKN]

I can hardly explain this quite skillfully. Only from a higher point of view, if we are not going to attack anyone, it makes no sense to have offensive weapons. Well, you yourself agree that this is not right. In defensive operations, landings are also used, remember WWII, and there were quite a few landings. In addition, we have partners like Cuba, Venezuela, and how many and when will there be such partners or not ... If you rush at the last moment, do something (well, when you need it yesterday), it’s logical to have not only ships, but experience their release. Moreover, why exclude the option of sale, competition of the same France, well, I already fantasized so much. :))

[Magog]

I will not remember about "WWII and defensive operations", tk. in the plans of the USSR on the eve of the Nazi invasion, no significant defense of the country was envisaged. If our troops landed somewhere in the first days of the war, it was just forced by the inertia of the pre-war plans ... For example, the Nazis, in order to capture the Crimea or break through to the northern Caucasus, completely dispensed with sea landings.

[NIKN]

Quote: Magog

If our landings landed somewhere in the first days of the war, then this is just due to the inertia of pre-war plans ... For example, the Nazis, to capture Crimea or break into the North Caucasus, completely dispensed with sea landings.

But did they land? And if there was an appropriate technique, how many lives would you save? Hoping that not being useful in military matters is not logical.

[timokhin-aa]

If our landings landed somewhere in the first days of the war, then this is just due to the inertia of pre-war plans ...

Or can you read something on the topic?

[Magog]

I read a lot about the landing of the war! The topic is touched upon (not by me!) Here as a certain example of the defensive actions of WWII, which I cannot agree with. The possibility of landing at that time was needed only in cases of offensive operations, which, finally, started after long and bloody battles to repulse aggression, and when the capabilities of the paratroopers were largely spent, as a rule, for other purposes ...

[timokhin-aa]

Some kind of stupidity of a universal scale.
Well, let's start with the landing near Grigoryevka. What operation did this landing provide, why was it landed, what did they achieve in the end?

[Magog]

You mean Grigoryevka near Odessa? What is not a forced operation? The effect was undeniable - local ... The city had to be urgently left because of the banal threat of Manshtein's breakthrough in the Crimea. And instead of strengthening the defense at Perekop, they were waiting for an enemy landing on the entire coast of Crimea ... I repeat the question: why do we need UDC in the Russian Navy today?

[timokhin-aa]

The effect was undeniable - local ...

Loss of pace by the enemy near Odessa. Few?

Give your vision of the Kerch-Feodosia operation now.

I repeat the question: why do we need UDC in the Russian Navy today?

Then, that this is the only way to ensure the landing of the first wave of landing in conditions when the enemy is resisting. There are no others in modern warfare.
I would actually wait a bit with them.
But their usefulness is, in principle, non-negotiable.
As a base for MTR operations offshore, they are also uncontested.

[Magog]

The fate of landing 42 years in the Crimea is known (Kerch-Feodosia, Evpatoria). The enemy firmly seized the initiative, air supremacy. For our part, landing operations were seen as attempts to create conditions for widespread offensive operations and the release of defended areas. The second major landing in the Crimea was carried out in other conditions, when air supremacy, for example, was won in heavy battles over the Kuban, and the Black Sea Fleet was fully used to cover such an operation. Subsequent landing on the southern coast, in the bay of Sevastopol on a smaller scale - this is the offensive operations to liberate the Crimea ...

[timokhin-aa]

You from the virtual world write, it seems, where everything is not like ours.

[Magog]

Yes, this whole forum is virtual! Didn't you guess? And how is "everything" with you?

[Private-K]

Quote: Magog

Why do we need UDC in the Russian Navy today?

Solve geostrategic tasks in an atmosphere of future redivision of the world with its breakdown into several zones of influence and the self-removal of the USA-RSA from the post of global hegmon.
That is why the Russian Federation continues to contain numerous and well-equipped airborne forces; that is why they decided to strengthen the MP and, finally, decided to give it expeditionary capabilities.

[Sandor Clegane]

Quote: Magog

Explain someone the tasks of UDC in our fleet today

Well, it takes a very long time to explain, and the simplest one is the expeditionary force, to protect the interests of the Russian Federation in friendly states

[Magog]

For example ? At least one...

[Sandor Clegane]

Quote: Magog

At least one...

Sorry, I do not feed the trolls

[Magog]

Why do you consider me a "troll"? I really do not understand the need for such ships for our fleet! When no one can really explain, then "I am a troll" ...? As an example, Venezuela and Cuba do not "roll" - it is enough to have our military bases there by agreement (as in Syria).

[Alex777]

Or can you read something on the topic?

You have already been politely answered.
You, apparently, did not pay attention to the answer.
But this is the common position of those who are interested in the topic.

[2 Level Advisor]

Yes, no one will answer you, I have already asked such a question 5 times- what are we, like minke whales, going to oppress someone around the world or why are they? no one answered .. the best answer was to demonstrate the flag .. Or we have to admit that we, like minke whales, are ready to climb the world not in our wars .. Where do we even need them in theory? Near Odessa to land a landing? Or capture London? I just can’t even think of it, even if they were now, you can come up with an application in Syria with a big stretch .. It would be better if they even built frigates .. or dual-use transports ..

[common man]

Quote: Magog

I really do not understand the need for such ships for our fleet!

Well, at least for the defense of their territories. Kuril ridge, Sakhalin, Kamchatka, NSR. Imagine that "someone" captured one of the islands of the Kuril ridge, where there were no our troops. How will you free him without a landing operation? Or will he land on the coast, "not close" to roads and ports? Or start fighting in Kamchatka. With our open spaces and roads on land, it is far from always possible to get anywhere.

[2 Level Advisor]

Territory defense? UDC for this is the best? We drove our fleet, aviation, and from coastal airfields will fly, and from the BDK landed troops - why reinvent the wheel?
Specifically for your application ideas:
In Kamchatka, there are more troops on the shore than UDC will bring at times, if they took Kamchatka, it will not help for sure, rather it’s necessary to think about nuclear weapons ..
Sakhalin from the mainland for aviation is more than close, and it will work perfectly from the mainland. Crossing the troops without UDC is also solved well ..
Ostrov- if someone is so brave that he decided, then the army / navy is there — he will find a surprise for the UDC along the way, and the landing will normally be covered from the BEACH (Japan) ..
But with what to cover UDC? After all, you're talking about the Japanese, so he will not help, they have coastal airfields nearby - with airplanes, not helicopters ..
SMP - and what will the enemy’s paratroopers capture there? Tundra with deer? Block them from the sea — they themselves will surrender from the cold / hunger before they prevent the movement of the ships — the NSR can be easier to block at times - mines / submarines. In addition, nobody built the ice class UDC in the world - did not build and did not intend to ..
My idea is that we have really necessary ships in the fleet - there is wildly not enough, and we are ships (and not very cheap) with an incomprehensible doctrine of application, why are we going to build .. That's when the rest is all there, you can think about the UDC, suddenly where useful .. And first of all, it is still an offensive weapon, and anti-Papuan, against more serious opponents - the aircraft carrier is needed - helicopters "you can't cook porridge" against fighters ..

[Sandor Clegane]

Quote: Level 2 Advisor

But with what to cover UDC?

UDC - expeditionary corps for friendly states! Syria, Cuba, Venezuela - this is today, but what could be tomorrow? And it makes no sense to cover in peacetime with a large force (frigate), any attack - a response will fly to any continent! and by the way, we already heard enough in the 90s of people like you and reduced all medium-range missiles…. cut the intercontinental ones, destroyed the unique complex "fellow" ... sold or cut 40% of the fleet ... 7 go advise to Ukraine !!

[2 Level Advisor]

nenene .. my friend .. I'm just more than against this -

Quote: Sandor Clegane

have reduced all medium-range missiles…. cut the intercontinental ones, destroyed the unique complex "fellow" ...

Are you confusing warm with soft? what does my koment and your phrase? Although I’m not sure from your phrase that I’m not wasting my time ...
Ukraine then what? I am from Stavropol (Russia) .. 10 years of service in the RF Armed Forces .. can you even boast of the same? (I served in 34103, and you?)
Request .. Answer on the topic of questions .. And not with slogans, otherwise I will ignore you as an incompetent interlocutor ..

[Sandor Clegane]

Quote: Level 2 Advisor

Otya from your phrase, I’m not sure I’m wasting my time ...

forgot about pickled cucumber, you are specifically against UDC, while generally below the waterline about the methods and tasks of its use, but against! Those who are against but a complete zero have seen enough in the 90s. he served in military unit 03054 of the USSR, I hope you will no longer have to answer me.

[2 Level Advisor]

I hope you even understood that I am not against the fleet and Russia .. Although, based on the disposition, two funny men are arguing about the fleet ..

[Sandor Clegane]

Quote: Level 2 Advisor

ridiculous, two land men argue about the fleet ..

funny, but I’m at least a hunter, but !! to the fleet was directly related to the fleet, some systems were tested on the Black Sea Fleet!

[Victor67]

Stop smacking nonsense, strategist! Who is this someone who captured the Kuril Islands or landed in Kamchatka? There, OTRK will shoot at the capital of these "someone" and the entire capture will end in 10 minutes. And you don't need any UDC and landing operations from them for this))) There are 5 minutes of flight to Tokyo.

[Sandor Clegane]

Quote: Victor67

Victor67 Yesterday, 23:04 PM
-1
Enough of nonsense, strategist! Who is this someone who captured the Kuril Islands or landed in Kamchatka?

There, OTRK will shoot at the capital of these "someone" and the entire capture will end in 10 minutes. And you don't need any UDC or landing operations for this.

following your logic, except for border guards and a vigorous bomb, no troops are needed at all .... it’s enough to use the Strategic Missile Forces forces during an attack ...

[Victor67]

My logic is that in those places we have only two serious ships of Soviet construction, and the yapov of some freshly built URO destroyers are about a dozen, and also aircraft carriers, dozens of anti-submarine destroyers, as well as the latest anti-submarine aircraft in dozens. There you can’t even get out of the base at this UDC. That's something like this, another strategist hat-taker)))

[Nosgoth]

So, Katz offers to give up?
If not, then how to balance parity without building a fleet (all of its components, and not one-sided)?

[Victor67]

In no case, you just need to start not with an expensive and helpless UDC alone, but with normal "toothy" ships of the 1st rank.

[Sandor Clegane]

Quote: Victor67

There you can’t even get out of the base at this UDC.

in the case of the database, no one will go anywhere, not only ships and in today's situation they’re even needed, but of course you don’t need a liberal-strategic

[ccsr]

Quote: Victor67

There, OTRK will shoot at the capital of these "someone" and the entire capture will end in 10 minutes.

It’s absolutely correctly noticed, but there is a small nuance - you need to understand that these capitals are allies of the United States, and therefore OTR alone will not do, you will have to wet everyone in full. But on the other hand, the Americans are aware of this, which means that they will not allow their allies to rock against Russia. We must proceed from this at the current stage of the confrontation, so that by and large the UDC in that region does not play any role from the military point of view.

[Victor67]

Right here are my thoughts you read !!! Just as they play no role in all other regions, since the US allies in all capitals are on our maritime perimeter.

[ccsr]

Quote: Victor67

since the allies of the United States in all capitals along our maritime perimeter.

But there are other regions outside the perimeter that MAYBE require us to use the Syrian scenario. So they come in handy - I think so.

[Victor67]

But you can explain why we needed the Syrian script, here personally to you and me? If it is possible, specifically, how much and in which sectors of industry, trade, and construction will there be profit for our country in the next decade? The Americans sat on the oil fields, now you can’t drive them out of there with a nuclear club. Assad, like any Arab, will be waved a dollar tomorrow - he will immediately turn to us *, he will go everywhere. And which regions may require us to use this scenario? All of Africa is already under China from all coasts, Southeast Asia - no, they themselves have a mustache, South America - also not, UDC just won’t reach there, we already passed the blockade in the 60s. Japan - there are no options at all, their fleet is stronger than all our fleets combined. WHAT FOR?

[ccsr]

Quote: Victor67

But you can explain why we needed the Syrian script, here personally to you and me?

Gazprom needed this primarily to disrupt gas supplies from Qatar to Europe. But we also had to show our high-tech weapons to the whole world - this was successfully demonstrated. Moreover, a model of a new war was worked out without the use of large units of the ground forces. There are several more tasks that have been resolved in Syria, so by and large not everything is so sad for our future. The very fact that Turkey, a member of NATO, buys the S-400, suggests that we have learned to learn from the Middle East situation.

Quote: Victor67

If it is possible, specifically, how much and in which sectors of industry, trade, and construction will there be profit for our country in the next decade?

You can’t explain everything in a nutshell, but our successes in the nuclear industry have made us world leaders - this is a fact.

Quote: Victor67

Assad, like any Arab, will be waved a dollar tomorrow - he will immediately turn to us *, he will go everywhere.

I admit this option, but he probably remembers that the Americans just as easily throw it, unlike us.

Quote: Victor67

South America - neither, UDC just won’t get there,

Our UDC can be purchased even in Latin America, especially if we make it competitive. Do you think Argentina abandoned the Falklands? So our UDC has a prospect - I have no doubt about that.

[Nemchinov Vl]

Quote: man in the street

Imagine that "someone" captured one of the islands of the Kuril ridge, where there were no our troops.

introduced and then (!) ?! ...

Quote: man in the street

How will you release him without a landing operation?

well, if the enemy can competently provide normal defense from three sides, and prevent them from getting close, even BDK, then (to a ship three times as large as UDC) and from one direction ?! (now you imagine YES ) ?!

Quote: man in the street

Or land on the coast

i.e here you think there will be a question about sizes BDK (UDC)?!, or about what is your opponent? и how competently it is before such an operation "ironed with the same CALIBRERS"what is the decisive role ?!

Quote: man in the street

With our open spaces and roads by land it is far from always possible to get somewhere.

I completely agree with you here (!)but only I can not understand why now in the shipbuilding programs of the Navy, with a huge shortage of basic types warships first rank (Cruiser / BOD / EM / Frigate), the advantage is given: "Grachatas", weapons transports, sea tugs, oceanographic research vessels, rescue tugs, icebreakers, hydrographic vessels ...... etc (!). This is not to say that they were not needed, but (!)on one warship (frigate / corvette ..... not even EM (!)...), per year, the Navy receives about 3-4 auxiliary vessels ?!... Is there a skew ?!.... Protection of the same NSR, in case of occurrence (God forbid critical confrontation), the OIC and "Grachata" will provide ?! Or UDC, without enough convoy security / cover from frigates ?! ....
therefore, the idea that -

Quote: Magog

Why do we need UDC in the Russian Navy today?

as well as the thought that -

Quote: Level 2 Advisor

It would be better if the frigates were built yet.

I see more sound !! ... such a point of view !!

[common man]

Quote: Vl Nemchinov

I can’t understand why now in the shipbuilding programs of the Navy, with a colossal shortage of the main types of warships of the first rank

Initially, the question was this.

Quote: man in the street

Quote: Magog
I really do not understand the need for such ships for our fleet!

If we talk about what is more important now, three frigates 22350 or one UDC, I will definitely answer "three 22350". But the question is, will Zaliv be able to build three 22350 units in the same time instead of UDC? If not, let him build the UDC, develop competencies.
And let 22350 build "Severnaya Verf" and provide it with everything it needs.

[Victor67]

The situation is such that sea tugboats, oceanographic research ships, rescue tugs, icebreakers, hydrographic ships after the collapse of the Union are completely gone, it seems that these ships are not serious, but without them, no warship of any rank can even move from the wall, thank God that there, upstairs, they understand this, and they practically restored it all. But the UDC, I am afraid, in the event of a conflict with Yap, the MP will not even be able to boot, a couple of dozen EMs from Japan will stand up as if they were hunting numbers and that’s all ... I’m already silent about their aircraft carrier component, which F will be delivered to today or tomorrow -35, and their anti-submarine aircraft with the Orions and Kawasaki ... And our one and a half or two Soviet-built ships of the 1st rank still built as always somewhere in Somalia will provide shipping from local Cro-Magnons, although to our merchant ships in those places hundreds of times it would be cheaper to plant PMCs to protect shipping, instead of muddy water in Africa, it’s not clear why ...

[Victor67]

You are a troll because you don’t shout your cheers and do not throw your hat up))) Half of the country outside large cities goes with naked * support, they eat roller and potato from the garden, but you can’t understand why they should land troops from UDC in Somalia!

[dvina71]

Quote: Victor67

singing, eating Rolton and potato from the garden,

And I think ... something around the regional centers about ', they are building driving ... !!! There are vegetable gardens and queues for rollton ..., and not traffic jams from the cars of beggars of Zamadovites ..

[Victor67]

Around the regional centers there are not even normal roads, not like detours, you should not be confused with the regional centers, although it doesn’t matter to you there in Moscow — zamkadye and the dark forest))) Personally, my mother-in-law has a pension of 12000 rubles, 4 of them are communal + phone, 2 - drugs, 6 is left for the rest of the chic, without a garden and a roller-blind, nowhere is it all these UDC and other shnyaga like Syria, Donbass, Crimea and Libya? What a swag from all this, she’s not going to die today or tomorrow!

[dvina71]

Quote: Victor67

There are no normal roads around the regional centers,

You know, I come about 10t km a month in the country .. This time the trip is Cherepovets-Orel-Vladimir .. and home to Arkhangelsk ... I don’t need to tell me about the roads and the Rolton ..
My aunt in Makeevka gets 6t. ..pensions, I help her .. don’t whine.

[Victor67]

And when you start whining - if you will receive a thousand? Or when does scurvy begin at her?))) I also help if you did not guess right away, but I don’t see anything good in it, I would gladly exchange both of these UDCs to double her pension ...

[ccsr]

Quote: Victor67

I would love to trade both of these UDCs to double her pension ...

This is a simplified approach, because the creation of these UDCs will put an end to the naval claims for new aircraft carriers, and by doing so we will save a lot of money for pensions to your relatives. I don’t see anything wrong with the creation of these UDCs, because those who justified the purchase of the Mistrals have so many military advantages for our president that Putin himself has now become hostage to the stupid situation that has developed around the deal with France. He just keeps a good face, that’s why this project hasn’t been hacked so far, otherwise he will have to admit that he did not realize why we need Mistral. But on the other hand, it will be a good reserve for reducing various types of future landing ships, and foreign orders loom ahead, if everything works out normally.

[Victor67]

I also don’t see anything terrible in the creation of these UDCs, just now, when there is not a single ship at the Pacific Fleet to withdraw it from the mooring wall, it’s a waste of money from the pocket of old people and, in general, taxpayers! When there will be a group of at least 2-3 ships to support the activities of this UDC, then there will be a conversation! As for the Mistral, their purchase allowed us to some extent steal the technologies of the world's leading shipbuilders from France, and now we just say: they didn’t sell, so you went there, we can handle it ourselves, and this is the reason for such a rush to build these UDC wash the Frenchmen. But in general, I think, better than our landing ships, which were under the Union, there is not and will not be, this is exactly what is needed for our tasks - I went to any coast, dropped everyone off and rolled off. All this shnyaga about UDC and their abilities (especially about the roles of headquarters, hospital ships, providing PLOs seem to me nonsense).

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Magog

Explain someone the tasks of the UDC in our fleet today.

It is in the name - the Universal Landing Ship. The main purpose is the movement of units and equipment hidden from prying eyes.

[Magog]

The main purpose is the movement of units and equipment hidden from prying eyes.

In other words, is the UDC an instrument of aggression? If "covert movement" ... Or a rapid reaction force against terrorists? Then the dispute about the displacement (15 or 25 thousand tons) and the number of helicopters with the landing force (20 pieces and two battalions of marines) is understandable. A sickly terrorist went today, which requires such a counter-force! "Someone" seized an island in the Kuril ridge? So block this "someone" and let them cuckoo until they get bored. In addition, as far as I am aware, our large military base is being built there, where it is possible to place any forces of the fleet and aviation (including the assault force!), Than to close the question for "someone" how to capture and, most importantly, keep the island Smoke or a bridgehead somewhere in Sakhalin ... It would be a stretch to accept the goal of creating a UDC as an instrument of the "Rapid Reaction Force" in the event of a terrorist threat to the coast!

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Magog

In other words, is UDC an instrument of aggression?

You know, getting into any military unit just bypassing the checkpoint is difficult. But no one perceives this as an act of aggression.
Even the supply of some kind of armament like the same S-400 or Tosochek should not shine ahead of time.
This is not aggression. Russia is a peace-loving country:

We are peaceful people, but our armored train
Standing on the siding!

[Magog]

Russia is a peace-loving country:

I have no doubt about it! "Iskander" - I understand, "Topol-M" - I understand, motorized rifle brigades - I understand, "electronic warfare means" - I understand, and so on. But "UDC" - I stupidly do not understand!

[Nosgoth]

When "I just don't understand!" - this is already to the doctors, the forum is powerless here.

You just breed demagoguery. Each time you receive an answer (from different users), you ask the same question on a new one. Therefore, they are not tuned to dialogue, but simply push your thoughts with the tenacity of one animal.

[2 Level Advisor]

And in the BDK or military transport, such goods can not fit in any way?

[Nosgoth]

The world is changing, the essence of conflicts is changing, new threats are emerging, but some still think like "cavalry for tanks."

[Nemchinov Vl]

Quote: ROSS 42

It is in the name - the Universal Landing Ship. The main purpose is the movement of units and equipment hidden from prying eyes.

SW. Yuri Vasilievich (!), well, if on the BDK (4 times smaller !!), the movement of units and equipment, you personally think menia, - "hidden from prying eyes", ....?! That’s probably UDC, of ​​course we need (!)...

[Nosgoth]

Most likely, by secrecy, it meant internal space, and not blockages on the deck.
Yes, and you need versatility. Russia now cannot afford to maintain a large number of highly specialized ships (only for delivering an assault on its own to the shore, or only for overseas delivery, or only for supporting an assault from the air, etc., etc.), when universal ships that are in demand in peacetime and in war will find their application (no one is going to use them on the first line).

[Lara Croft]

Quote: Magog

for Russia, such ships seem like an unnecessary and far-fetched idea. Does our military doctrine somehow justify the landing of amphibious assault forces on the coast of the "banana republics"?

Case incl. UDCs are intended not only for participation in conducting an air-sea operation on the enemy’s coast, these ships for the Russian Federation (primarily for the KTOF and KSF) are needed as helicopter carriers to provide PLOs for withdrawing from the naval base on combat duty PLA / PLARK / SSBN to the oceans ...
In addition, the above ships can be used as hospital ships and headquarters ships ...
The UDC for the above Fleets of the Russian Federation will differ in their characteristics, for CSF these ships must have ice-breaking qualities, in order to operate along the entire length of the Northern Sea Route, taking into account its length and to ensure the PLO of the waters of the northern seas of the Russian Federation, such UDC on the CSF should be 3-4 ( taking into account the fact that two will constantly be at sea, one under repair, modernization, etc.) ....
For KTOF, there should be 2-3 such UDCs, for the purpose of both conducting an ASW in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk and beyond, and the possibility of landing amphibious assault forces on Russian island territories to strengthen their defense, as well as on foreign ones (for example, Hokkaido, after missile "processing" of the places of deployment of the Northern Army and VVB / SSYa airfields, in order to create a "cordon sanitaire" on the maritime borders of the Russian Federation in the Far East) .....

It’s also hard to imagine amphibious assault in conflicts like Syria ...

The Syrian Express showed that the large landing ships are unable to cope with the assigned tasks of supplying a limited group of Russian troops in the SAR, for this, merchant ships were purchased from Turkey ....
The Russian operation in the SAR showed that the Russian Federation needs an analogue of the American Maritime Transportation Command ..., and for this the Russian Federation must have not only strong amphibious landing forces of the Navy, but also a strong merchant fleet (rocklers, container locomotives of the "ro-ro" etc.), as they say by "Afromax" tanks and other armored vehicles cannot be transported ... this requires new shipyards and competence for the construction of the above ships, in this sense, unfortunately, we cannot get away from cooperation with the "empiricalists", for example, the first 10 Afromax will be built with the participation of South Korea ...

You can understand the validity of preserving the BDK of the times of the USSR: let them survive until the resource is exhausted, somehow adapt to the current tasks of the fleet - and for scrapping.

What the Russian Federation is doing, among the NATO countries such ships (called tank landing there) remained only with rogue people, Greece and Turkey (also building UDC) ... by the way, all Russian BDKs were built at the time in shipyards in the GDR and Poland ...
I don’t agree about scrapping, the Russian Federation has a lot of island territories, so, like the same Greece, extra landing ships won't hurt us ... at worst they can be put into the active reserve of the fleet ....
Azerbaijan itself has 10 MDKs and is not going to write them off ...

[Magog]

Thanks for the arguments! Do we correctly imagine the nature of the war against Russia? Any created weapon / means / complexes are created for clearly defined tasks. And "can be used" - this is when the weapon was created, and the tasks were determined without taking into account the possible actions of the foe, that is, they simply did not guess correctly the nature of future hostilities. Perhaps the delay in the "bookmark" of new ships is related to this?

[Lara Croft]

Quote: Magog

and the tasks were determined without taking into account the possible actions of the adversary, that is, they simply did not correctly guess the nature of future hostilities.

You are angry. I think the older comrades know what they are doing ...

Perhaps the delay in the "bookmark" of new ships is related to this?

Can. However, the USSR Navy still had experience using helicopter carriers and aircraft carriers ..., other cases were used in conjunction with escort forces of the Navy (ships of the far sea zone - URA cruisers / URO destroyers / URO frigates, at least), and not by themselves ....
I am in favor of two types of helicopter carrier, light and cheap, for "work" off the coast of the Russian Federation and heavy UDCs like those of "empiricalists" for operation on remote maritime theaters ... (with the possible use of a short takeoff and landing Su-57 from them in the sea version ) ....
However, it is up to the military-political leadership of the Russian Federation after studying the opinions of experts ...
In general, it is strange that not a single author who writes on the development of the Russian Navy refers to the text of the Decree of the President of the Russian Federation dated July 20, 2017 No. 327 “On approval of the Fundamentals of the state policy of the Russian Federation in the field of naval activities for the period until 2030” (https://www.garant.ru/products/ipo/prime/doc/71625734/), if there is a need to adjust the development concept of the Russian Navy, adjustments are made there ....
Here is an article of 2015 on VO, just on this topic
https://topwar.ru/79631-utverzhdena-obnovlennaya-morskaya-doktrina-rossiyskoy-federacii.html

[Magog]

So it turns out: we thought about updating the "Naval Doctrine" and came to the conclusion that the UDC is a dubious enterprise, that within the framework of new threats to the interests of the Russian Federation in the World Ocean, other solutions are required ...

[2 Level Advisor]

As far as I understand, the PLO for leaving the base is the only reasonable explanation - the need for UDC, but according to the plans there, the ka-52 is not a PLO helicopter at all ...
And how to use their transports - the same as carrying pipes to the construction site on the "Helika" .. maybe that is, but is it necessary, if there are trucks?

[Lara Croft]

Quote: 2 level advisor

As I understand it, the PLO for leaving the base is the only reasonable explanation - the need for UDC,

I also offer cheap helicopter carriers, possibly advanced Soviet projects for missile defense purposes .... and for overseas operations, full-fledged UDC and KVDK ...

And how to use their transports - the same as carrying pipes to the construction site on the "Helika" .. maybe that is, but is it necessary, if there are trucks?

They are for this by and large not intended, for this we need supply transports ....
In fact, nothing will come in handy from the Soviet legacy in modern warfare from the amphibious forces of the Russian Federation, it is necessary to create full-fledged amphibious landing forces from "0" ...

[2 Level Advisor]

I completely agree with you +

[Doctor]

Explain someone the tasks of the UDC in our fleet today.

No one will explain to you clearly. Except me.
I explain.

UDC is needed by Russia because America has them.

[Magog]

Everything ingenious is simple!

[Nemchinov Vl]

Quote: Arzt

UDC is needed by Russia because America has them.

or maybe even easier ?! , - "because it is USC and their design bureau", and all their employees, and primarily managers hungry and not anyhow, and not anyhow !!! "....

[yuratanja1950]

Quote: Magog

Explain someone the tasks of the UDC in our fleet today.

Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey - NATO members ... Ukraine and Georgia - applicants for NATO membership ...
So it’s not necessary for these UDC helicopter carriers to leave the Black Sea ...

[VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK]

And in the Far East? Kuril Islands, Sakhalin Island! Why war is necessary! We have a lot of inaccessible places. And in the event of an emergency, you can engage in over-the-horizon evacuation of the population and the military, if there is no way to get close to the shore!

[Svetlana]

Did you start to cut metal though?

Do you start cutting metal before or after the start of production?

[petrol cutter]

"Do you start cutting metal before or after production starts?"
For embedded sections, I think the metal is not only cut, but also boiled / cleaned / adopted by the Quality Control Department / military representatives.
Next, as they become available ... Usually, as something happens ...

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: Thrifty

The point is not the fact of the laying ceremony, it is the beginning of the process of building helicopter carriers for our fleets!

the matter is the availability of a finished project, with all the documentation. But with this questions

[frog]

Are there any projects? With a worker who can already cut metal? Or just cartoons and napkin sketches in 3D? This is not to say that the fleet does not know at all how and what with these boxes .... Essentially, IMHO Yes, and with metal cutting, too, everything ...... is ambiguous ..... Take an interest in the fate of "Petenka Gruzinsky", how many years has he been sticking out on the stocks? at such a pace, soon it will be possible to celebrate the tenth anniversary

[Grandfather]

Bookmark of two UDC for the Russian Navy in Kerch moved

it can’t be .. it never was and here again ...

[timokhin-aa]

Are there any projects? With a worker who can already cut metal?

No, ZPKB is rushing like crazy, collecting all the technical documentation for any similar ships, up to 11780. There is no smell of any project there.
There is no power plant for him, even in the project.
Landing ship helicopters are not produced in Russia. Under what to do the area and g / n lifts - is unclear.

Or just cartoons and napkin sketches in 3D?

Where did you see cartoons and sketches? In fact, there are only different types of general views of ZPKB and one poster shown in public. To cartoons and 3D is still very far away.

[Livonetc]

The updating of the displacement parameters from 15 thousand tons to 25 and the increase in the number of helicopters to 20 are impressive.
We are waiting however.

[Lara Croft]

Quote: Livonetc

The updating of the displacement parameters from 15 thousand tons to 25 and the increase in the number of helicopters to 20 are impressive.
We are waiting however.

Everything will end with the construction of the UDC of the Soviet project 11780

At the request of the USSR Minister of Defense, Marshal Ustinov, the tracking of enemy submarines in the ocean zone was added to the tasks of Project 11780 ships in peacetime. The ship had a normal displacement of 25 tons, a length of 000 meters (196 according to the design waterline), a width of 180 meters (35 according to the design waterline), and a draft of 25 meters. As the main power plant, a boiler turbine plant with a capacity of 8 hp was used. (180 MW), unified with the power plant of destroyers of the project 000. The speed of full speed was 142,4 knots, the economic speed of 956 knots. The cruising range of the economic course was 30 miles. The construction of two ships of this project, Kherson and Kremenchug, was supposed.

https://topwar.ru/62969-proekty-sovetskih-avianesuschih-desantnyh-korabley-nash-mistral.html

[parusnik]

The cause of the transfer is not called, perhaps it is associated with the pandemic of the coronavirus.

... It could even be.

[carstorm 11]

so they immediately said that because of this they could transfer to the day of the Navy

[Alex777]

There is a timid hope that the GDP wants to be present on the bookmark and therefore was postponed without announcing a new date. To make a surprise.
If so, then let it.

[carstorm 11]

not in this case. they just initially voiced such an option with the transfer. in April, a third of the staff worked due to the virus. apparently in May too.

[Crane]

There is a timid hope that the GDP wants to be present on the bookmark and therefore was postponed without announcing a new date.
==========
Not sure. Anything can happen to the project in the future. And who opened the bookmark?

[Alex777]

Until July 26, not long left.

[petrol cutter]

“There is a timid hope that VVP wants to be present on the bookmark and therefore postponed without announcing a new date. To make a surprise.
If so, then so be it. "
From something the president does not favor the southeast of Crimea with his visits. He is mainly interested in the city of Sevastopol ...
Therefore, this theory is most likely erroneous.
To my deep regret.

[Andy]

and where and how to apply this miracle? as I understand it, even the natives already have coastal PCR (Yemen is an example for you). it’s better if the aircraft carrier was laid. one hell escort is also needed, but higher efficiency

[tralflot1832]

Yes, at least the rotation in Syria is carried out humanly. In the Far East, the field is not plowed. Until the Americans build something they will come up. Useful!

[Andy]

and as a passenger-car ferry is not suitable for transportation? capacity is higher. Why carry a helicopter carrier in shuttle service? for 13 tanks?

[tralflot1832]

The civil parachute is very different in terms of unsinkability from a warship. The military has a lot more isolated compartments. And this is laid during the construction process.

[Andy]

shuttle and should not participate in the battle. his task is delivery. besides, I’m not saying that to use one in one with the passenger. say to supply its base in Syria, it’s suitable. and storm the alien coast ... from the fiction section. And any type

[tralflot1832]

They already said that he should not storm the coast. Before landing on the coast, only one coast and the corpses of the enemy should remain. Kenvoir turned into a blazing bonfire from bow to stern. This is the difference between a civilian ship and a warship.

[Andy]

destroyer sheffield, mr. monsoon. greatly helped military standards? therefore, I say that with the advent of the PCR, any landing on a foreign coast is doomed. and leave the tales of pre-stripping. in 2008, with airfields nearby, they could neither destroy their air defense nor their aircraft.

[tralflot1832]

In the Falklands, the British
received the fruits of their savings in the construction of their destroyers. It was profitable and insanity fought off when attacking with personal small arms. We don’t need to save money on weapons. MRK Musson is not a very good displacement example. You and I don’t serve at the headquarters of the Navy. we need to. Let's start with the UDC, we’ll work out the technology. And then in Severodvinsk or in the Far East, we can swipe at the aircraft carrier.

[Nemchinov Vl]

Quote: tralflot1832

We’ll start with the UDC, we’ll test the technology. And then in Severodvinsk or in the Far East, we can swipe at an aircraft carrier.

However, it’s rich !!

[Alien ...]

Sheffield really helped. Those that were.
"Shipwreck. Episodes of the Falklands War." https://topwar.ru/25339-gibel-korabley-epizody-folklendskoy-voyny.html

[Paranoid50]

Quote: Andy

natives already have coastal pcr (Yemen as an example to you).

At the time of the enemy’s landing with anti-ship missiles, the enemy’s coast should no longer be by definition - only the coast should remain.

[Andy]

and forgive that coast excuse me with what?

[tralflot1832]

During the period of independence, the carabel ran up I have a carabel, the former works from there. It’s one thing to build a boat, and then it’s 25 tons displacement. The most difficult thing to start. People need to attract the ruble; especially young people. We have enough lawyers and economists, it’s time to take up professional technical education .All the same, build on evil and contrary to all !!!

[parusnik]

During the period of independence shipbuilders ran over

.... Shhh ... don’t give out military secrets, there’s not only shipbuilders missing .... The main reason is related to the coronavirus pandemic. Therefore, we will adhere to the official version .. But still, we build on evil and contrary to all !!!

[frog]

there are not only shipbuilders missing ....

IMHO, of course, but there (TAM) is not enough, and money is not the first .......

[sevryuk]

Carabel, they are. IN professional Education must definitely introduce Russian language lessons.

[tralflot1832]

Excuse me. I don’t teach Russian language. I’m closer to marine abusive. I remember how to write letters only when I sign in accounting, but here.

[sabakina]

Quote: tralflot1832

. Enough for us lawyers and economists, it's time to take up professional technical education.

Last year we were kicked that there are not enough applicants to our specialized universities. This year there are no vacancies, although we were preparing two girls ... These are Saratov, Moscow and St. Petersburg. Who do you think took these places?

- Dad, will I be a general?
-No son, the general also has a son.

[Lara Croft]

Quote: tralflot1832

People need to be attracted by the ruble; especially young people.

Have you attracted a lot? Do not consider youth dumbasses, they need a well-paid job with a prospect for growth, if a universal turner wages even the same as a lawyer with 5 years of experience, then young people will go to a lawyer ... office or workshop, of course yesterday school student will choose a bright office

Enough for us lawyers and economists,

If the market has a demand for lawyers and economists, you will do nothing ... these professions are necessary both in the service sector and in industry ... so leave your Wishlist with you, any person, especially a young person, thinks of a high and stable / p with minimal effort ...

It's time to take on professional technical education.

So late for 30 years ... where were you when the vocational schools / vocational schools / technical schools were closed (in the 90s, "bloody" Putin was not yet in power, and in the State Duma, the Communists had the majority, who famously and quickly de-industrialized the country with the participation of " red "directors, like the Nazis are now in Ukraine) ...

Anyway, build on evil and contrary to all !!!

They are building and not in vain, but taking into account the requirements of the market, for example, state orders began to come to the Crimean Shipyard and Shipyard, it was necessary to organize courses for training / retraining of working personnel ...

[Svetlana]

Quote: Andy

and where and how to apply this miracle? as I understand it, even the natives already have coastal PCR (Yemen is an example for you). it’s better if the aircraft carrier was laid. one hell escort is also needed, but higher efficiency

And it’s better to just three .. not five carriers to lay

[Andy]

... the very case when there is nothing clever to say ... regarding the use of the helicopter carrier, "stratech" kept silent, putting a minus

[Svetlana]

Knowledge of the disadvantages and advantages of military equipment is not enough. Absolutely not enough. Bo fundamental to making a decision in the construction of high-tech units of military equipment, is the ability of industry.

[Andy]

in other words, we need a cruiser, but we can only wash basins, so we will flood the enemy with basins ... :)

[Svetlana]

The philosophical principle works here: from simple to complex.
****
Having learned how to rivet "basins" the industry will easily switch to "pressure cookers".

[Nemchinov Vl]

Quote: Svetlana

Learning to rivet "basins" industry will move easily and pressure cookers.

theoretically yes, but ... while your example from "Raptors" and "Buyans", no way in the direction of frigates 22350 (for real ... - 10-11 years each !!!) move / move can not ?! , something went wrong ?!

[Alien ...]

Modern UDC from just raiders turned into semi-aircraft carriers. Everywhere and at all. Smoke materiel: that of Wasp and America, that of Trieste, that of Izumo ...
Tasks ... Anyone within its capabilities. It was amusing to watch how for the transfer to Syria we had to charter all the dry cargo scrap metal around the world. Thanks to the Turks, provided. )))
Concerning need... I do not see. Watchmen and destroyers oh, where as needed ...

[Aleks2000]

Is this already the third time? or in 3-4?
And next to the article "the ship LCS-24 Oakland entered the US Navy" - a type of trimaran that was wildly abused by experts at VO 1-2 years ago ...

[Alex777]

These LCS, conceptually, were supposed to work together with the Zumwaltes.
Zumwalt canceled due to high cost, but LCS - not.
Therefore, they look so strange today. And it was not for nothing that they scolded them.

[Alien ...]

They are scolded now. But Amer do not care. Having Ticonderoges with Burke, can afford. And they saw the budget there, not a couple of ours. On the same coastal workers deployed the additional program for installing additional weapons ... Not enough for the loot ... Expand the program for the construction of light frigates. This is not a trifle for you to rater at the Raptors and Grachats ...

[Alien ...]

... ps: after- "The Pentagon has revealed some details of the weapons new frigate FFG (X) " https://topwar.ru/172564-pentagon-raskryl-nekotorye-detali-vooruzhenija-novogo-fregata-ffg-x.html

[Vasyan1971]

Bookmarks will not be on June 29th. She is transferred. The exact date has not been set, it is still floating.

"News" is so familiar and commonplace that it is not worth special attention.
Okay, even though the date floats. Maybe we will see "Sevastopol" with "Vladivostok" sailing.

[Cyril G ...]

Such aircraft carrier helicopter mriies I personally raise questions
- is there a ready-made technical design of the ship.
- Whether the issue with the power plant has been resolved, or is it laid.
- Our fleet is doing well with the rest of the problems, we are already seeing a series of small corvettes / MPCs being built to replace the rapidly decrepit pr 1124, the youngest of which is 30 years old. Not? Really?
- And by the way - do decision makers remember the worst story with Impudent Mercury. Does anyone think this is one ship? Figwam. These are two ships. We look at the embedded boards.



However, evil tongues say that they wanted to tell Putin a fairy tale that this is a new ship. But it didn’t work out. The fifth year of the heroic construction is already going on. I haven’t seen the case, and you? I’ll clarify that I didn’t see either the Insolent or Mercury ....

[ccsr]

I am more and more amazed at modern propagandists who are not even fit for the Soviets. If then the day of the bookmark was appointed in advance, then without any announcements everyone knew that it was on this day that the event would take place. And the current ones have trumped the whole world, and now they began to twirl their tail. Well, okay, it's still forgivable, but I immediately called the idea of ​​holding a SINGLE day of laying down all ships idiotic, and the first "damn lump" confirmed it. In general, it becomes a shame for our empty-hearted people and more and more convinced that irresponsibility has become a symbol of modern Russia - as always, there will be no extreme. And these figures still say something about the Soviet era and evaluate it ...

[timokhin-aa]

It was obvious a long time ago. How can a ship be laid on which there is no normal project? What is hidden under the code 23900 is just a Wishlist, pictures from ZPKB that never designed anything like that.

The contract has been signed, now we need to get the design documentation from ZPKB, then order the components, start cutting the steel exactly at the right time and then lay them down, and not rush with fake mortgage sections as before.

[Alien ...]

If a contract, for various reasons (including that the newly returned capacities to take something) was signed, but the project is not ready, then maybe this is a competent decision not to lay down?

[timokhin-aa]

Well, of course. So long ago it was time to start doing - the bookmark can be a year after the contract and two. And these jumps with fake mortgage sections are simply ridiculous.

[Alien ...]

Words step: so if there is no project, but of. bookmarking ceremony, maybe something to fix in the conservatory? This is a clinic ...

[timokhin-aa]

Well, I need to fix it. And the question of not doing these stupid things arose in the early 2000s. And they put him in the Navy.
I don’t know why we still do this nonsense.

[V1er]

Dear, can you enlighten, is there a section on this topic in VO, on which project will the UDC be, a description of their capabilities, comparison with other ships by classmates?

[timokhin-aa]

So the design is still ongoing. There are many questions not closed.
Take something from here -
https://vz.ru/society/2020/6/1/1042336.html

I had another article about this ship, but it was stuck in the 1st Central Research Institute of the Navy like "it converges according to open sources, but there is a lot of classified information about which you do not know."
Something's getting dark. Therefore, I will not give another link.

[V1er]

Thank you for the quick and detailed answer.

[ccsr]

Quote: timokhin-aa

How can a ship be laid on which there is no normal project?

Do you have evidence that there was no normal project and R&D ended without the transfer of technical documentation to the manufacturer? I do not believe in this. You either lie or provide evidence that the most important stage of R&D has not been completed, and the state commission paid for all the work without the act of transferring design documentation to technologists.

Quote: timokhin-aa

from ZPKB which has never designed anything like this.

Also tell them that they were paid money for "beautiful eyes". Tell us how you imagine the process itself in stages, before claiming that the developers did nothing and did not receive the documentation in Kerch.

Quote: timokhin-aa

Now we need to get from ZPKB the development of design documentation,

Don't talk nonsense - they have been developing it for at least two or three years (or more), otherwise no one would have begun laying ships in Kerch this year. Even a real ship model is assembled according to drawings - any ship modeler will confirm this to you. And here that UDC "by eye" decided to build? Do not make me laugh.

[timokhin-aa]

Don’t be smart about what the project 23900 is all the people in the subject know perfectly well, as well as the fact that immediately after signing the contract ZPKB requested materials on the old project 11780, as well as the fact that part of the design work there will fall on other design bureaus .

And I will also add that Russia does not have a serial landing helicopter, and that the Lamprey from Kamov is not even close to being ready, and neither its final dimensions nor its mass are known, which means that one has to wait for the Lamprey to design the lifts, etc.
And even before the heap, that there is no 23000 ton displacement in the country as the optimal GEM for a recreation center, etc.

And yes - And who are you to provide you with something?

[ccsr]

Quote: timokhin-aa

You don’t get clever, about what the project 23900 is all people in the subject know perfectly well

And what you personally know - put it right here, and do not engage in self-PR. What do you personally have to do with the MO ordering structures? Tell us first, so that it is clear who the VO readers are dealing with.

Quote: timokhin-aa

as well as the fact that immediately after signing the contract ZPKB requested materials on the old project 11780,

This is a common practice - not a single new project is developed from scratch, but is based on previous developments and what is currently available in the industry. What kind of crime have you personally seen in this?

Quote: timokhin-aa

And I’ll add that Russia does not have a serial landing helicopter,

This is not proof, if only because you are not aware of aviation research and development, which is carried out on the orders of the Ministry of Defense with the release of the series in 2025-2027. This information is owned only by senior military leaders who, when planning UDC, initially chose the aircraft for it - existing or promising. But you didn’t stand close to them, and your cheeks are inflated out of business.

Quote: timokhin-aa

And yes - And who are you to provide you with something?

You are not stupid for me, but for VO readers, and when you ask you to bring at least some of the evidence, you immediately get into a pose. It’s sad for those who believe you ...

[timokhin-aa]

And what you personally know - put it right here, and do not engage in self-PR.

So I laid out, you are in the rack then you got up?

What do you personally have to do with the MO ordering structures? Tell me first, to make it clear who the readers of VO are dealing with.

It’s better for you to tell how you can hold your finger on the trigger.
To the ordering - no, but with the developers of TTZ it was a matter of intersecting and intersecting.

This is a common practice - not a single new project is developed from scratch, but is based on previous developments and what is currently available in the industry. What kind of crime have you personally seen in this?

If your memory would allow you to remember that you wrote a couple of comments back, you would refrain from such a statement. I didn’t see any crime anywhere, I just pointed out to you that I asked for materials on the analogs of the ZPKB in the period immediately preceding the signing of the construction contract. What hints.

This is not proof, if only because you are not aware of the aviation research and development that is being carried out on the orders of the Ministry of Defense with the release of the series in 2025-2027.

Where did you get that you don’t know? On helicopters, all information has been made open for a long time.

It’s sad for those who believe you ...

What will happen to them?

[ccsr]

Quote: timokhin-aa

To the ordering - no, but with the developers of TTZ it was a matter of intersecting and intersecting.

Now everything is clear with you - you didn’t even see the TTZ in your eyes in full, and already started to talk about what kind of helicopters are registered there. All this is ridiculous ...

Quote: timokhin-aa

If your memory would allow you to remember that you wrote a couple of comments back, then you would refrain from such a statement.

Do not be shy, bring what I wrote earlier and what I should refrain from.

Quote: timokhin-aa

On helicopters, all information has been made open for a long time.

What nonsense - you yourself had nothing to do with ordering structures, how do you know what they drove into the weapons program for 2026-2030. for serial deliveries? Do you think it will be written on every fence? Well, well, "theorist" ...

Quote: timokhin-aa

What will happen to them?

Nothing serious will happen, but then they will just laugh at your research when they see that you have steamed it and compare it with what actually happened.

Quote: timokhin-aa

So I laid out, you are in the rack then you got up?

You laid out your opinion, and not how things really are. And this opinion is too far from professional - it is striking.

[timokhin-aa]

Actually:

1. ZPKB does not have a finished project.
2. ZPKB freezes any documentation that may be on the designs of other similar ships. For example, 11780. And it is trying to negotiate with NPKB about outsourcing in the development of 23900.
3. Ship bookmarks are transferred, the first date was a single bookmark day back in late April, then May 9, then June 29, now they promise July.
Well, we'll see.
4. In Russia there is only one serial power plant for a ship more than a corvette - M55R. It is not suitable for UDC.
There are no other power plants for large warships in Russia.
5. In Russia, amphibious and multipurpose helicopters are not mass-produced; the only marine helicopter project is the Ka-65 "Minoga", which is now at the stage of prototyping. No one knows exactly when it will turn into a real car. Examples of such programs as the Mi-38 and Ka-60/62 show that this can happen even when these UDCs have to be put on medium repair.

As for your opinion about anything, its value is strictly zero.
However, when everything becomes obvious by 23900, I will recall this dialogue. By that moment, you yourself will already forget everything that you carried here, but I have a good memory.

[ccsr]

Quote: timokhin-aa

1. ZPKB does not have a finished project.

This is a lie - without the project, which was adopted by the State Commission, the Ministry of Finance will not give a dime for it, because it cannot pledge money without documentary confirmation from the gas supplier. Have you come across the concept of financial discipline, or have you found tens of billions of times in your country's budget to find?

Quote: timokhin-aa

3. Ship bookmarks are transferred, the first date was a single bookmark day back in late April, then May 9, then June 29, now they promise July.
Well, we'll see.

A single day is nonsense in which I did not believe. As for the postponement of the bookmark, now there is an excuse in the form of a coronavirus. And of course we'll see ...

Quote: timokhin-aa

In Russia, there is only one serial power plant for a ship more than a corvette - M55R. It is not suitable for UDC.

Once again I ask - what relation do you have to the R&D that customers carry out? As I understand it, no. How do you know what to happen in the country with the development of new power plants? Who is reporting to you? So the gossip of the former naval, now retired, and no more.

Quote: timokhin-aa

However, when everything becomes obvious by 23900, I will recall this dialogue. By that moment, you yourself will already forget everything that you carried here, but I have a good memory.

We will definitely return to it - do not worry. You can add this topic to your favorites.

[timokhin-aa]

It's a lie

Lies, this is your alleged service in all sorts of super positions in the GSVG. Or where are you responsible for a nuclear war, like.

Without the project, which was adopted by the State Commission, the Ministry of Finance will not give a penny for it, because it cannot pledge money without documentary confirmation from the gas customer.

In the real world, this is not so. Allocates money to the Ministry of Defense. From the Ministry of Defense, control over the implementation of the state contract is carried out by DOGOZ - the Department for Securing the State Defense Order.
The subject of the contract is the implementation of design and development work. The stages of design and development work include the development of the product (in this case, the ship), its construction, delivery and transfer to the customer.
The contractor of the design and development work is the design organization, the manufacturer is the subcontractor, the criterion for the performance of the design and development work is the delivery of the product to the customer.
The copy of the ship handed over to the customer is called "Head". After that, contracts for the production of the series are concluded and the next ship is called "The first serial".
There are various deviations from this order of actions, for example, there was a contract for production with the Plant with regard to Karakurt, but basically the order is like this.
And not the rubbish that you carry.
So, a citizen - to sign a contract for the implementation of OCD, without a final project, in fact, there is no crime. This is completely legal; in the West it is generally normal practice.
The bad thing is how we are organizing this whole process, and how it is then served in the mass propaganda bodies.
In particular, one of the side effects is the online racing of characters like you.

How do you know what to happen in the country with the development of new power plants?

This information is OPEN, it is included in industry newsletters and can be made public without restriction. It’s just that they don’t include it in press releases without a special reason, because the fact of developing a new installation is a trump card for marketers and an excuse to get financing from the Ministry of Industry and Trade, therefore this information is thrown into the air if there is an occasion that can attract the attention of the Ministry of Industry and Trade or potential customers.
But it is unclassified.

So clear

We will definitely return to it - do not worry.

To survive? Do not make me laugh.

[ccsr]

Quote: timokhin-aa

Lies, this is your alleged service in all sorts of super positions in the GSVG.

You’re definitely an eccentric in the well-known letter - I really served in the group’s headquarters as a senior management officer, and I had to carry out combat duty. If there is enough reason, then an additional permission is given to someone at the headquarters of the group (district) on alert duty.

Quote: timokhin-aa

The subject of the contract is the implementation of design and development work.

Do not be clever - who did the R&D for a start, before it was proved that it was possible to order OCD. Or have you not heard about this?

Quote: timokhin-aa

The R&D contractor is a design organization,

So where is the project then, because you claimed that

ZPKB does not have a finished project.

How then will the contractor (subcontractor) work without project documents - are you out of your mind?

Quote: timokhin-aa

the criterion for the implementation of OCD is the delivery of a copy of the product to the Customer.

Do not tell me how you are going to end the OCD if you yourself claim that there was no finished project. Moreover, a prerequisite for the completion of any design work is the transfer of design and technological documentation to manufacturers. How are you going to build a ship without the package of this documentation?

Quote: timokhin-aa

The copy of the ship handed over to the customer is called "Head".

He may be the only one, like Ural, for example. But this is not the point, but the fact that the documentation for it is necessarily done in full, even if this is the only ship for the current period and the series will not be.

Quote: timokhin-aa

And not the rubbish that you carry.

It’s not up to you to judge who is talking nonsense, but do not shy away and tell us in more detail how this can be completed with even one ship without design and engineering documentation, if this stage is carried out before the ship is laid. How could a customer order money to pay for the next steps, if the most important one wasn’t done with your words. Have you heard anything about the stages of R&D payment, or is it an empty phrase for you?

Quote: timokhin-aa

So clear

No, it’s not clear, if only because the data on financing various sections of the weapons program are never made public, because this is classified information.

[timokhin-aa]

I really served in the group headquarters as a senior management officer, and I had to carry out combat duty.

And I thought you held your finger on the KURKE.

Do not be clever - who did the R&D for a start, before it was proved that it was possible to order OCD.

What kind of research? Before the start of the ROC since 2014 (seemingly) the year, the presence of the NTZ is checked, well, for the creation of the ship, the NTZ is quite there. Always and for anyone.

How then will the contractor (subcontractor) work without project documents - are you out of your mind?

No way. What we are now clearly seeing. There is a contract, the terms are on it. But there is no bookmark.
And I’ll even say more, if this year there will be a laying, then it’s the same as on 20386, where two years passed between screwing the embedded board to some suitable metal structure and the beginning of steel cutting.

It’s not up to you to judge who is talking nonsense, but do not shy away and tell us in more detail how this can be completed with even one ship without design and engineering documentation, if this stage is carried out before the ship is laid. How could a customer order money to pay for the next steps, if the most important one wasn’t done with your words.

I can well judge that you are talking nonsense, if only because I never claimed that OCD can be completed without creating documentation. It is in your head that the same voices sound that convinced you to impersonate a secret nuclear warrant officer from the GSVG with a trigger from a machine gun in your hands.

Have you heard anything about the stages of R&D payment, or is it an empty phrase for you?

There is no R&D. R&D and OCD are two different things. According to design and development work, advance shipments are being made from Serdyukov’s time, up to 100% of the cost.

No, it’s not clear, if only because the data on financing various sections of the weapons program are never made public, because this is classified information.

Well, I don’t say that I know them. These are voices in my head again.

[ccsr]

Quote: timokhin-aa

And I thought you held your finger on the KURKE.

I followed someone else's "finger".

Quote: timokhin-aa

What kind of research?

Eh, naive - any new complex project starts with research and development. How can you understand whether the plan is realizable or not without this work? The last stage of research and development is precisely the creation of a TTZ project for R&D. Where did you educate such "smart" ones?

Quote: timokhin-aa

No way. What we are now clearly seeing. There is a contract, the terms are on it. But there is no bookmark.

Stop whistling - if the documentation stage is not completed, then the developers will not receive money for its implementation. And after that, it would never occur to anyone to order money to bookmark a ship, because it will be pulled by official forgery - at least this is estimated among professionals.

Quote: timokhin-aa

There is no R&D. R&D and OCD are two different things.

You are definitely illiterate - practically all serious OCD is preceded by research, because it is impossible to start OCD without the scientific justification for the creation of new technology, both in terms of technical solutions and in terms of combat use.

Quote: timokhin-aa

According to design and development work, advance shipments are being made from Serdyukov’s time, up to 100% of the cost.

Your pearls

advance payment, up to 100% of the cost.

betray you with your head. Advance settlement system does not imply 100% payment, but only phased - you do not at least disgrace before the ensign from the GSVG, verbiage.

[Grits]

Something I'm not at all surprised for some reason ...

[next322]

instead of them they would have laid a couple of 20385 for the Black Sea Fleet, that would be real power

[V1er]

Not instead, but in the appendage)

[iouris]

Probably right. Late. Now there are other priorities.

[Mountain shooter]

Why, why ... they are going to base 20 on the ship !!! Heavy helicopters. How many, apparently, "Alligators", how many transport. Such an armada will be able to "throw" 900 soldiers ashore quite quickly. With the cover of attack helicopters ... Then her floating craft will go into action, heavy weapons will be brought up ... UDC is an "opportunity" ... sometimes its presence is enough to sober up some overly hot ...

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes, and fuck they are not needed! It is necessary to build light carrier aircraft on the basis of BDK 11711 (8-10 helicopters on board). Ideally, two BDKs and one helicopter carrier in the Northern Fleet, Pacific Fleet, and Black Sea Fleet.

Helicopter carriers are needed now, there is no time to wait until 2030. Corvettes, frigates, diesel-electric submarines, BDK, helicopter carriers, this is the weapon of the XNUMXst century!

[timokhin-aa]

What kind of game in the bottom picture?

[Connor MacLeod]

Promising helicopter carrier based on BDK 11711

[timokhin-aa]

It was necessary to draw on the basis of RTOs.

[Connor MacLeod]

There is such a cool model! How do you like it?

[timokhin-aa]

This is a model of another ship at all.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well yes it's advanced Ivan Gren... But what if you abandon the landing airlock (or whatever it is called) and increase the number of helipads to 4? The entire landing will consist of 8 helicopters and a company of special forces with weapons ...
You get something like class landing ships Raleigh и Austin? They are comparable in displacement with 11711 ... Cheap and cheerful!

[timokhin-aa]

"Cayman" and Ivan Gren have only a part of the project number in common, and nothing at all with your first picture.

[Connor MacLeod]

I downloaded this picture from neta just for clarity, that's not the point! A light helicopter carrier does not matter on the basis of Ivan Gren or Cayman, the main thing is that there is experience and production capacity. 8 helicopters and a company of commandos. Build or not?

[timokhin-aa]

No, we are not building. The design and performance characteristics of the ship must correspond to the tasks to be solved, for landing ships also the OShS of the landing troops, in our case, the Marine Corps.

Just in case, a comparison of "Gren" with "Cayman"

[Connor MacLeod]

So what is the discrepancy? Instead of a battalion of marines with equipment and 1-2 helicopters as at the present moment, there will be a company of special forces with weapons and 8 helicopters under deck. Dimensions allow. Like Gren and Cayman ...

Tasks to be solved? Well, such a task, for example:

A color revolution has taken place in a Russian-friendly oil-producing African republic. The legitimate government has been overthrown, the military is in confusion not knowing who to swear allegiance to. Meanwhile, armed opposition supporters are blocking the Russian Embassy from all sides, where the legitimate president is hiding. In the building of the Embassy the soldiers of the special unit of the SVR "Zaslon" are heroically holding a perimeter defense. The situation can get out of control at any moment ...

But then special forces and combat helicopters come to the aid of the besieged, based on board the newest Russian helicopter carrier Cayman, which was airlifted to the western coast of Africa in advance. Attack helicopters cut off opposition fighters with cannon and missile fire, while transport helicopters evacuate diplomatic personnel. After
the legitimate president was safely brought aboard the helicopter carrier, he addresses the Nation and takes command of the Republic Armed Forces under his personal control. As a result, some of the army units declare their loyalty to the rightful president.

After that, under the cover of combat helicopters, a battalion-tactical group of marines will land on board the Russian large landing craft "Ivan Gren", which was also previously concentrated off the coast of the republic. The international airport located not far from the capital in the shortest possible time passes under the control of Russian paratroopers and begins to receive aircraft with airborne units. The grouping of Russian troops in the republic will grow rapidly, more and more army units are going over to the side of the legitimate government. As a result, the detachments of the armed opposition are scattered, the coup attempt failed completely! And now the opposition leader is hiding in the American embassy!

Happy end!

[Andylw]

again "shift right" ...
Well, where without it

[Ros 56]

Build ships at such a pace, 7-10 years on the ship. During the war, tank and aircraft factories revived from wheels for three to four months, and then finished bases and such terms. Yes, to the Kolyma of all involved precisely with such terms. There is no Stalin on them, in the extreme, and Beria will pull.

[paco.soto]

Uncertainly:
Why announce the bookmarks of such a high-tech project in the sanctions zone? Now I will be grateful for the answer (analytics only)

[daymon]

Although I’m not an analyst, civilian ships in Kerch cannot be built — sanctions, and military ones can be used, plus enterprises can be loaded with work. Yes, and in Russia there are no more free shipyards capable of building such ships

[paco.soto]

Neutral Opinion:
If you need to legalize the origin of financial mas on Western bankers and evade responsibility for the failure of the project in your homeland - Just the right move for officials, just in case. But! - My thoughts, just mine

[paco.soto]

civilian vessels in Kerch cannot be built — sanctions, but the military can, plus load enterprises with work. ©
I do not want to discuss, but: the localization of production is absolutely wrong! (in the voice of Visarionitch - to shoot!

[ccsr]

Quote: paco.soto

civil courts cannot be built in Kerch

You can - any caboter, auxiliary vessels and ships for our Arctic, i.e. orders above the roof even according to civil nomenclature. I’m not even talking about changing the flag - all this is easily done.

Quote: paco.soto

I do not want to discuss, but: the localization of production is absolutely wrong!

Clarify the thought - what is the mistake of reviving powerful production in the Gulf?

[paco.soto]

Clarify the thought - what is the mistake of reviving powerful production in the Gulf?
Reply ©
My opinion, as a lawyer, is in choosing a place for the revival of the production of military orders. Sanctions can "destroy" a 90% ready project, as is the case with Nord Stream2.

[ccsr]

Quote: paco.soto

My opinion, as a lawyer, is in choosing a place for the revival of the production of military orders. Sanctions can "destroy" a 90% ready project, as is the case with Nord Stream2.

If an enterprise works for the domestic market and for the defense industry, then it can put on the opinions of all lawyers in the world. Nord Stream 2 is an international project, which is why sanctions are imposed on it. And it is not a fact that the sanctions will not allow its completion - anyway, Russia itself will finish its construction. By the way, what sanctions can Gazprom or Minatom impose on our internal projects?

[paco.soto]

If an enterprise works for the domestic market and for the defense industry, then it can put on the opinions of all lawyers in the world. "©
Well, I will not discuss with you here.

[Vladimir1155]

It is necessary to load the factories, but why build unnecessary udk? let's build something there that the Navy needs, such as minesweepers, submarines, frigates ...

[Magog]

"Build such ships" and "load enterprises with work", then look for someone to sell them to: how did it happen with France? The Egyptians are still arguing among themselves why they bought the Mistral ...

[Bez 310]

Why are you shouting? No need to scream, just read:
"... it is necessary to actively build up the combat capabilities of the fleet. This largely depends on the planned arrival of frigates and submarines into the combat composition of the Navy, modified for the use of Zircon hypersonic missiles - this weapon is becoming extremely important for maintaining strategic stability, - as well as destroyers and universal amphibious ships. "
This was said by the President on December 02, 2019 at a special meeting.
Now, based on your tasks, you can reflect on the construction of ships for the Navy. For me, one question is not entirely clear -
what will we consider a destroyer?

[Magog]

For me, one question is not entirely clear -
what will we consider a destroyer?

So, according to the UDC, everything is clear to you? Maybe explain to us, dull and dark, why our Navy needs Mistral-class ships? The President mentioned the UDC before the pandemic, since then "the world has changed" - let's see what he says after.

[Bez 310]

I explain "dull and dark" for the UDC.
As far as I understand, UDC will not be built because they
we need, but because France did not sell them to us.

[Alien ...]

Type Mistral-not needed. They are not there. More questions?

[ccsr]

Quote: Magog

So, according to the UDC, everything is clear to you? Maybe explain to us, dull and dark, why our Navy needs Mistral-class ships?

There is one small nuance, which is not advertised anywhere, but which plays in favor of the UDC after Ural was written off.
Here is an excerpt from the book of M. Boltunov, clarifying the situation of how UDC can be used if a crisis situation arises in some regions:

What happened next, recalls Mikhail Shatberashvili:
“With a brief but extremely important report, I ran from all legs to the commander’s cabin. The commander reads, crosses out the word "Urgent" and puts the highest category of urgency in the Armed Forces of the USSR - "Air!"
The cipher’s cabin is next to the commander’s, and a minute later the cipher telegram is sent to the recipients.
So in the hot autumn of 1973 the war began. ”
This was the fifth ship trip in the Mediterranean. Many officers and midshipmen have gained considerable experience in enemy electronic intelligence. True, going to sea at the end of August, no one could have imagined that they would have to work, in fact, in the war, during the Arab-Israeli conflict. A trip to the hottest spot in the Mediterranean will last five months, instead of the planned one hundred days.
In this campaign, as before, the ship "Crimea" should take on board up to 50 soldiers of military service. They were sent to the ship from the regiments of the Special Forces of Odessa and Odessa Transcaucasian District. Usually, servicemen arrived in Sevastopol, they were dressed in sea uniform, and they poured into the crew.
This time, unfortunately, things did not go according to plan. Our Foreign Ministry notified the relevant Turkish authorities of the passage through the Bosphorus of the hydrographic vessel Crimea. Turks have confirmed permission to pass. And here, as luck would have it, the weather was not flying, and they couldn’t deliver soldiers from Tbilisi at the appointed time. The ship fell off from the Sevastopol wall without them.
Already at sea, “Crimea” caught up with the radiogram that the soldiers were following on another ship and that they had to be taken aboard in the western part of the Mediterranean Sea. But the fact is that before Soviet electronic intelligence ships went to the eastern part. The Americans are accustomed to this route, and suddenly “Crimea” follows a completely different course. But where and why? It really excited the Americans. The destroyers of the US Navy appeared on the horizon, airplanes continually circled the ship. Everything calmed down and the Americans disappeared beyond the horizon when the Soviet cruiser met with the electronic reconnaissance ship and US naval officers saw fighters moving on board the Crimea with their own binoculars.
In turn, having accepted the equipmen, the ship lay down on a given course and soon found itself in the reconnaissance area.
I must say right away that the Crimea ship was the main source of intelligence during the Arab-Israeli war for the 6th GRU command.

It is easy to guess that a large number of radio reconnaissance posts can be deployed at the UDC, moreover, using wheeled vehicles from the OSN brigades, and this will allow him to solve completely different problems. However, this is just my guess, and you decide how realistic it is.

[Alien ...]

Here, almost everything is almost clear: the destroyer is the next step after 22350M, which is after (supposedly) 22350. That is, oddly enough, we at least understand what it should be ... I wonder who - Anywhere (from design bureaus / shipyards) is there a technical specification for R&D on a potential product? It would be interesting to look ... Baida "Leader" does not count ...

[Bez 310]

In general, you are also not in the know for the destroyer.

[Alien ...]

Of course. I'm not naval. But already with a high degree of probability it is clear that this should be an average between "22350M" and "Leader". American and Chinese samples to help us. AND in count pennants too.

[Alien ...]

The question is for those who are possibly really in the subject: will something be carried by these boats like the Mi-26? Stupidly, on what marines will be delivered to land in 20 km? Not everywhere is the coast, like Brazilian beaches ...

[1536]

Let's hope that the Crimean plants will be fully integrated into the Russian economy.

[Junior Warrant Officer]

What now to do with previously torn button accordions regarding the laying of two UDC in Kerch scheduled for June 29. The deadlines, as always, were postponed, but the military-patriotic representatives of VO have recently torn all button accordions ...
Will new bayanas be issued on occasion, or can they be rolled up earlier?

[Alien ...]

Better ask who will darn them when they really are laying ...

[daymon]

And this is the problem of salaries in the Crimea at times less than on the mainland. And all the specialists leave again to earn money as in Ukraine.

[svoit]

Quote: Magog

The sickly terrorist went today

There are huge states - terrorist ones, since terrorism is their policy, and they are with huge regular forces and resources.

[Vladimir1155]

but it’s better to cancel it altogether and instead of unnecessary udk = trough, order for 100 billion, coastal aviation, minesweepers, submarines

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: NIKNN

In addition, we have partners like Cuba, Venezuela, and how many and when will such partners be or not

there are enough dry cargoes for Cuba and Venezuela .... the udk there is not needed and Russia doesn’t need it at all, we have no colonies and aggressive plans, it’s just a cut of money and damage to the defense, as this money can be spent on coastal aviation, minesweepers and underwater boats. The entire Russian Navy is paper with combat efficiency below zero, since there are practically no minesweepers and PLO aircraft, and there are few ships. In this situation, ordering a couple of udk for 100 billion is a betrayal of the homeland and a crime. UDC as well as Kuznetsov will never be able to fight, there is no escort to them. The strongest northern fleet is the three old BDKs and the frigate, which cannot be sent anywhere, because there are practically no PLO aircraft, MPCs are very old and there are too few ... and we will not abandon the submarine base and two cities (Murmansk and Arkhangelsk) for Cuba where our people live .... so the only superfluous combat-ready ship on the Northern Fleet that can be sent somewhere during the war is the cruiser Ustinov ... its performance characteristics do not allow ensuring the safety of landing operations and guarding the convoy. And there is no landing as such, the entire MP will protect the coast. A retaliatory strike and defense by attack cannot be carried out with the blood of infantry in the 21st century, there are ICBMs for defense by attack, including on nuclear submarines.

[Alien ...]

... Interestingly, at this shipyard you can upgrade the BOD of project 1155? ... Where, how much more sense ....

[Alien ...]

Here is what was immediately clear and a lot was written about:
"In Japan, the modernization of the Izumo-class lead helicopter carrier has begun, as a result of which the ship will be transformed into a light aircraft carrier and will be able to carry on board the American fifth generation F-35B fighters with short takeoff and vertical landing." https://flotprom.ru/2020/Япония22/