Military Review

“He saw the Buk driving: in court on MH17, instead of witnesses, they present their alphanumeric codes

134
“He saw the Buk driving: in court on MH17, instead of witnesses, they present their alphanumeric codes

“This man saw a Buk ride. So in the course of the trial in the case of the Boeing shot down over the Donbass in July 2014, a certain witness was designated. At the same time, the prosecutor Thijs Berger immediately made it clear that the prosecution would not disclose any information about the witness, since "this could affect the safety of this person."


This wording itself looks strange. It turns out that for a court in the Netherlands it is enough that they inform him of the presence of an anonymous witness so that the court takes into account his testimony.

So what did this person say during the trial?

According to him, he saw “how the Buk was driving along the road from Snezhnoye to Saur-Mogila and also saw a military crew in tank headsets ".

From the testimony of the “witness”, who is designated by the alphanumeric code X48 during the process and who was “voiced” by the prosecutor (also an “interesting” practice):

He also heard how the rocket started, saw it. X48 saw the field catch fire where the rocket launched. He says that after the launch of the rocket he rode out onto the road and saw 4 soldiers in the same khaki uniform, they were all wearing tank headsets. These soldiers looked exactly like those standing at the checkpoint through which he was passing.

The court asked the prosecutor when the witness testified and whether they could be trusted. At the same time, the judges make it clear that they do not know anything about the witness. Prosecutor Berger stated that the interrogation took place 4 years ago and added:

His testimony is reliable.

Who would doubt that...

It is noteworthy that there is no information about where this X48 saw "soldiers in tank headsets" - either in the launcher itself, or somewhere nearby, who can confirm his testimony at all. Also, the Netherlands prosecutor’s office does not give an answer to the question: how much does all this make sure that the “witness” knows exactly what the Buk air defense system looks like.

An even more urgent question: does this mean that any statements and allegations from unknown people may appear in the case, which the prosecutor, having assigned alphanumeric codes, will call “witnesses”, because it is not possible to verify their presence or the veracity of their testimonies?
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  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. Civil
      Civil 11 June 2020 07: 13 New
      38
      Not a court, but a laughing stock ... neither witnesses nor documented evidence.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 11 June 2020 08: 17 New
        14
        Quote: Civil
        Not a court, but a laughing stock ... neither witnesses nor documented evidence.

        Such an opinion is created that either ignoramuses or stupid people are sitting in this court. "He saw the Buk driving."
        1. Hagen
          Hagen 11 June 2020 08: 45 New
          +4
          Quote: tihonmarine
          Such an opinion is created that either ignoramuses or stupid people are sitting in this court. "He saw the Buk driving."

          There, in the courts, smart and competent people sit. But there is also such a form of democracy that allows you to put pressure on the court in order to make a politically biased court decision. Who has doubts about what this decision will be in this case? .... Does anyone still doubt that one should protect one's “intimate” places from other people's “playful” hands? (this is about the issue of voting for amendments, about the boycott proposed by some journalists ...).
          1. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine 11 June 2020 09: 01 New
            +5
            Quote: Hagen
            There, in the courts, smart and competent people sit.

            But when they are so smart and competent, they carry "baby talk", then the mind and diploma fly away like a basin over the bathhouse, and dirt and garbage remain. If you sat in the judge’s chair, be worthy of this title, there are no such qualities, judge pocket thieves or deliver pizza.
            1. neri73-r
              neri73-r 11 June 2020 09: 50 New
              +4
              Quote: tihonmarine
              If you sat in the judge’s chair, be worthy of this title, there are no such qualities, judge pocket thieves or deliver pizza.

              Do you still believe in democracy, freedom of speech, an honest western court? Yes, naivety is not a sign of stupidity, but purity of the soul! (c) Just there, the court is very smart to allow an honest trial, which will not leave stone unturned from the arguments like the court of the Dutch prosecutor’s office! hi
              1. tihonmarine
                tihonmarine 11 June 2020 10: 32 New
                +2
                Quote: neri73-r
                Do you still believe in democracy, freedom of speech, an honest western court?

                Faith cannot be in the "democracy" of the West. But while I believe in people, not everyone can step over themselves.
                1. neri73-r
                  neri73-r 11 June 2020 10: 38 New
                  +8
                  Quote: tihonmarine
                  But while I believe in people, not everyone can step over themselves.

                  Believe me, I was not there as a tourist, they are OTHER! There, 95% of the population believes only in money, they think only of them and everything is measured, unlike us, only in money! Profit - at any cost, and depending on its size, including crime. The smile there is just a beautiful sign.
                  1. Doliva63
                    Doliva63 11 June 2020 18: 53 New
                    +1
                    Quote: neri73-r
                    Quote: tihonmarine
                    But while I believe in people, not everyone can step over themselves.

                    Believe me, I was not there as a tourist, they are OTHER! There, 95% of the population believes only in money, they think only of them and everything is measured, unlike us, only in money! Profit - at any cost, and depending on its size, including crime. The smile there is just a beautiful sign.

                    You are directly quoting the classics of Marxism-Leninism! drinks
            2. Hagen
              Hagen 11 June 2020 10: 54 New
              0
              Quote: tihonmarine
              But when they are so smart and competent, they carry "baby talk"

              So after all, he carries this babble exclusively for domestic consumption. And there it is enough, that "people hawala". How babble ceases to pass, babble changes ... Demand creates supply. And I think the judge’s salary depends to a large extent on this babble.
            3. major147
              major147 11 June 2020 12: 40 New
              +2
              Quote: tihonmarine
              If you sit in the chair of a judge, be worthy of this title,

              Oh! Who are you talking about? Is it not about the judges of the Stockholm Arbitration !?
        2. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 11 June 2020 09: 07 New
          10
          at least the defense should have the right to ask questions such as how he distinguished the beech from the tractor.
        3. venik
          venik 11 June 2020 12: 00 New
          +6
          Quote: tihonmarine
          Such an opinion is created that either ignoramuses or stupid people are sitting in this court. "He saw the Buk driving."

          =========
          good Lord Yes, with SUCH "success" I can drag them a whole crowd of "witnesses" who Did not seehow the Buk rode .... And even the Buk itself was never seen in the eyes !!! request
          1. major147
            major147 11 June 2020 12: 43 New
            +3
            Quote: venik
            Quote: tihonmarine
            Such an opinion is created that either ignoramuses or stupid people are sitting in this court. "He saw the Buk driving."

            =========
            good Lord Yes, with SUCH "success" I can drag them a whole crowd of "witnesses" who Did not seehow the Buk rode .... And even the Buk itself was never seen in the eyes !!! request

            Or they saw and heard how before and after the launch of the rocket the military shouted "Sala Ukrainy"!
          2. Doliva63
            Doliva63 11 June 2020 18: 56 New
            +2
            Quote: venik
            Quote: tihonmarine
            Such an opinion is created that either ignoramuses or stupid people are sitting in this court. "He saw the Buk driving."

            =========
            good Lord Yes, with SUCH "success" I can drag them a whole crowd of "witnesses" who Did not seehow the Buk rode .... And even the Buk itself was never seen in the eyes !!! request

            It is true that the defense also needs to present a secret witness who will confidently declare that he did not see any Buka that day. laughing
        4. Paranoid50
          Paranoid50 11 June 2020 12: 49 New
          +2
          Quote: tihonmarine
          "He saw a Buk driving."

          See how the Buk rode and die. laughing
        5. major147
          major147 11 June 2020 13: 13 New
          +3
          Quote: tihonmarine
          He saw the Buk driving.

          X48 - His testimony is reliable.
          - in general, "one grandmother said!"
        6. 76rtbr
          76rtbr 11 June 2020 14: 46 New
          +1
          But how did he determine that it was Buk? maybe "cube" wink or Poplar, but Ash did not swim ???
          some military experts in Ukraine.
      3. demo
        demo 11 June 2020 17: 43 New
        +2
        True, she, as an awl, will come out anyway.
        Not today, so tomorrow.
        Yes, even after 10 years.
        Relatives of the victims of this flight remained and there will be a lot.
        And where is the guarantee that there will not be at least one Kaloev among them?
        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 11 June 2020 18: 59 New
          +1
          Quote: demo
          True, she, as an awl, will come out anyway.
          Not today, so tomorrow.
          Yes, even after 10 years.
          Relatives of the victims of this flight remained and there will be a lot.
          And where is the guarantee that there will not be at least one Kaloev among them?

          The Dutch judge probably didn’t hear about Kaloev. But rather, that loot is more expensive than life - they also hammer it: live here and now.
          1. demo
            demo 11 June 2020 21: 24 New
            +1
            Time will tell.
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 11 June 2020 21: 40 New
              +1
              Quote: demo
              Time will tell.

              This is yes.
      4. sen
        sen 12 June 2020 06: 55 New
        +1
        Based on the reputation of Ukraine, most likely its witness was fabricated.
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 11 June 2020 07: 36 New
        +9
        Everything is moving toward * digitalization *, and the witness has been encoded. So soon the judges will be coded. Then the program is squeezed into the laptop and the whole process of * justice * will be much cheaper and more manageable.
        We are waiting for the sss progress.
        But still, what about the laws?
        Or to hell with them? With the laws. The main thing is to achieve the desired result
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 11 June 2020 08: 20 New
          +4
          Quote: Vasily50
          Everything is moving toward * digitalization *, and the witness has been encoded. So soon the judges will be coded. Then the program is squeezed into the laptop and the whole process of * justice * will be much cheaper and more manageable

          And then, as always, hackers crack this program, and a general judicial mess and chaos will begin. (although chaos has already begun without it).
        2. makasan34
          makasan34 11 June 2020 11: 00 New
          -2
          it's all a dumb matrix
          bully
        3. venik
          venik 11 June 2020 12: 03 New
          0
          Quote: Vasily50
          So soon the judges will be coded.

          =======
          Already! At least very similar to that!
        4. Pete mitchell
          Pete mitchell 11 June 2020 15: 03 New
          +1
          Quote: Vasily50
          Everything is moving towards * digitalization *, and here is the witness of the law ....
          I agree with you, though not sure what litigation on line it's good. But we definitely observe a new thing in jurisprudence - when a witness is not even necessary to present - a modern variety gentlemen believe the word
          Quote: Vasily50
          But still, what about the laws? Or to hell with them? With the laws. The main thing is to achieve the desired result

          Paid ...
    3. PalBor
      PalBor 11 June 2020 07: 40 New
      +9
      Yes, he smiled too. But there is no desire to smile further. They set a goal to blame Russia and they will do it, no matter what. Well, they do everything to make barbarians and cannibals out of us. This is all in order to justify a nuclear strike on Russia: "Well, well, they are not people, savages ..."
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 11 June 2020 07: 57 New
        11
        “He saw the Buk driving: in court on MH17, instead of witnesses, they present their alphanumeric codes

        SAM Buk seen and "seen" in fact in many places.

        And in Kramatorsk, occupied by the Armed Forces, in the military unit on the street. Stratonauts in Donetsk, in Zugres and Lugansk, in Zaroshchensky, near Shakhtyorsk, in Torez, Snezhnoye, now here’s "near Saur Grave"...

        Someone obviously intentionally creates the appearance that the DPR and LPR literally "swarmed with Bukami" ...

        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 11 June 2020 08: 02 New
          13
          he saw "how the Buk was driving along the road from Snezhnoye to Saur-Mogila and also saw military crew in tank headsets"

          yes yes yes
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 11 June 2020 08: 22 New
          +7
          Quote: Insurgent
          Someone obviously intentionally creates the appearance that the DPR and LPR literally "swarmed with Bukami."

          They will soon agree to the extent that there are more Buk than the Kalashnikovs in the Lao PDR.
        3. PalBor
          PalBor 11 June 2020 08: 50 New
          +1
          In-in, the evil Puten (no matter how I treat him) sent a Bukov division to bring down a random Boeing.
        4. vvvjak
          vvvjak 11 June 2020 09: 15 New
          +5
          Quote: Insurgent
          SAM Buk seen and "seen" in fact in many places.

          And not surprisingly, everyone knows that at first glance any Ukrainian peasant (and some even by the sound of the missile being launched) can determine not only the type of air defense system, but also its modification, and even determine the nationality of the crew by accent.
          1. Insurgent
            Insurgent 11 June 2020 09: 26 New
            +5
            Quote: vvvjak
            And not surprisingly, everyone knows that at first glance any Ukrainian peasant (and some even by the sound of the missile being launched) can determine not only the type of air defense system, but also its modification, and even determine the nationality of the crew by accent.

            Everything is as it were, but with significant amendments to regional conditions:

            - Donbass was Ukraine purely nominally, and we proved it;

            - the population of Donetsk region (DPR) predominantly urban("proletariat"), which at one time determined the inclusion of Donbass into peasant Little Russia ...
            1. vvvjak
              vvvjak 11 June 2020 09: 45 New
              +1
              Quote: Insurgent
              Donbass was Ukraine purely nominally, and we proved it;

              Undoubtedly.
              Quote: Insurgent
              the population of Donetsk region (DPR) is mainly urban

              I am aware of this. But, you see, a city resident of the DPR will not be able to observe the movements of the air defense systems in the field, let alone testify to this in a court of a foreign state. From this simple thought, we can conclude that X 48 is a villager and a Ukrainian (or, frankly, “Ukrainian”), moreover, versed in military equipment no worse than VO experts, with obvious linguistic abilities. In a word - the harrow of Munchausen today.
          2. sevryuk
            sevryuk 11 June 2020 09: 50 New
            +1
            There were no Ukrainian peasants there, but the Donetsk miners, yes ...
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 11 June 2020 11: 50 New
              0
              Quote: sevryuk
              Ukrainian peasants were not born there, but the Donetsk miners, yes ..

              On the controlled territory of Ukraine, brought "peasants" from Western Ukraine.
  2. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 11 June 2020 07: 11 New
    20
    What can I say ... he saw, he certainly saw, and if you grant citizenship and include in the witness protection program, I’ll tell you who killed Kennedy ...!
    1. Russobel
      Russobel 11 June 2020 07: 16 New
      +9
      killed kenedy ...!

      He killed and buried it in the ground, and wrote the inscription ... laughing
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 11 June 2020 08: 23 New
      +3
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      and if you grant citizenship and include in the witness protection program, I’ll tell you who killed Kennedy ...!

      And unemployment benefits.
  3. siberalt
    siberalt 11 June 2020 07: 12 New
    -6
    We vote for amendments and no Hague is not afraid of us. Therefore, hired Dutch prosecutors are in a hurry.
    1. Volodin
      Volodin 11 June 2020 07: 15 New
      11
      Quote: siberalt
      We vote for amendments and no Hague is not afraid of us.

      I don’t understand, but what, are you afraid of The Hague now? Or do you seriously think that later in The Hague they will say: “That's it, we are closing the case, in Russia they adopted amendments.”

      These sixes have a task, and whether they want it or do not want it, they will have to solve it, which they demonstrate with their X48 ...
      1. siberalt
        siberalt 11 June 2020 07: 18 New
        +2
        Articles 15,17 of the colonial Yeltsin Constitution of the Russian Federation, determining the supremacy of international law over Russian. Amendments will change this.
        1. Volodin
          Volodin 11 June 2020 07: 25 New
          +8
          Quote: siberalt
          Articles 15,17 of the colonial Yeltsin Constitution of the Russian Federation, determining the supremacy of international law over Russian.

          Well, you understand that if these articles are canceled, then this will not affect the Dutch prosecutors or judges in any way. They will continue what they were “instructed” - they certainly do not care about the Constitution of the Russian Federation.
          1. siberalt
            siberalt 11 June 2020 07: 29 New
            +3
            All right. They will not be affected, but their sanctions can be put with the device on the basis of amendments. All treaties on the supremacy of international jurisdiction over Russian will automatically lose force.
            1. Volodin
              Volodin 11 June 2020 07: 37 New
              +8
              Quote: siberalt
              They will not be affected, but their sanctions can be put with the device on the basis of amendments.

              I just want to clarify exactly how to put it? .. We’ll put it with you, but those who have children abroad, billions of dollars in the same place, villas, land, put? ...

              For example, sanctions were imposed against the activities of Russian banks in the Crimea. It seems to me that even after the adoption of these amendments, our banking “bags” will not have the courage to start full-fledged activity on the peninsula, because they know they can take foreign assets for a soft spot. And after the adoption of the amendments, it is unlikely that the Swiss Allseas will immediately return to finish building the SP-2. These are realities.
              1. siberalt
                siberalt 11 June 2020 07: 48 New
                -1
                I agree. I also wonder who and how can "put". The Russian Foreign Ministry, of course, with its numerous legal departments apart from the press secretary. But it is quite real. But only, there are few breakthroughs in our diplomacy. Talk alone. Sadness, however.
              2. shinobi
                shinobi 11 June 2020 08: 15 New
                +2
                Those who do not have foreign assets will come, there are also enough of them. Sanctions are a double-edged thing, do not store money in banks in the United States and tied from the United States (there are also a lot of them) and you will be happy. Offshore companies have not just appeared. The devil is not so terrible painted.
              3. nov_tech.vrn
                nov_tech.vrn 11 June 2020 09: 33 New
                0
                Sberbank is so much owned by the Naglo-Saxons that its management does not want to know anything, now that when the state has 50% +1 share, most recently the central bank was planning to reduce its share to 25%, they almost had time.
              4. major147
                major147 11 June 2020 12: 51 New
                -1
                Quote: Volodin
                Just want to clarify exactly how to put it? ..

                The Hague Judges may convict Russia and oblige them to pay a ton of compensation. According to the current constitution, we are obliged to obey, and the amendments will be adopted - you can send the “judges” to the forest ....
            2. The leader of the Redskins
              The leader of the Redskins 11 June 2020 07: 41 New
              0
              Russia has enough foreign assets (buildings, a joint venture, production and etc.) which, according to INTERNATIONAL law, can be taken away at the expense of compensation. And then it will be possible to stay with naked opera and ... the laid device.
              1. dragy52rus
                dragy52rus 11 June 2020 07: 57 New
                +3
                as I understand it, there is no foreign property in Russia?
                1. The leader of the Redskins
                  The leader of the Redskins 11 June 2020 08: 01 New
                  0
                  And what will be more reflected in counterargument economies? Closing McDonald's? Or any of the ones listed above?
                  1. Egor-dis
                    Egor-dis 11 June 2020 09: 51 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                    And what will be more reflected in counterargument economies? Closing McDonald's?
                    Are you sure that in Russia there is nothing to take from them other than the McDonald's?
                    1. The leader of the Redskins
                      The leader of the Redskins 11 June 2020 10: 04 New
                      -4
                      Overlap of which of these industries will not be "ears frostbite"? Any of them can easily leave the manufacturers from another country. Now imagine that they block our oxygen. Where will we seek cooperation? In Venezuela or in Cuba?
                      In this case, the history of sanctions will be repeated, from which we are "only better".
                      1. Egor-dis
                        Egor-dis 11 June 2020 12: 31 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                        Overlap of which of these industries will not be "ears frostbite"?

                        Any. Firstly, no one has canceled cooperation with China. Secondly, in strategic industries (where it has not been done yet) they will start kicking local producers / contractors to speed up import substitution.
                        Stalin in such a situation did not hesitate, by any means, to industrialize and establish his own production. Thanks to this, they had their tanks and their aviation and their atomic bomb. It would be a desire.
                    2. aglet
                      aglet 11 June 2020 10: 17 New
                      0
                      Well, and who will take this away from partners? you will not name a surname?
                      1. Egor-dis
                        Egor-dis 11 June 2020 12: 23 New
                        -2
                        Quote: aglet
                        Well, and who will take this away from partners? you will not name a surname?
                        Life will support - there will be names. For example, Zhirik will put expropriation to do. And organizing minors is not a problem at all. Ukraine is an example of this.
                      2. major147
                        major147 11 June 2020 12: 58 New
                        0
                        Quote: aglet
                        Well, and who will take this away from partners? you will not name a surname?

                        And who took the dip from Russia. property in the US and not shy !? And we will find how the team will be.
                      3. aglet
                        aglet 11 June 2020 17: 52 New
                        -1
                        Americans are not shy, ours are shy, not that upbringing, and even so
                2. major147
                  major147 11 June 2020 12: 55 New
                  0
                  Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                  Closing McDonald's?

                  I’ve been thinking about the issue of what the West needs to do in order to impose Russian sanctions on Coca-Cola in response. I think they have there quickly come "enlightenment in the mind!"
            3. siberalt
              siberalt 11 June 2020 08: 06 New
              +4
              Anyone who cannot defend their rights will be crushed with naked opo. You need to be strong as the USSR or as the Russian Empire of the 18-19th century.
              1. Insurgent
                Insurgent 11 June 2020 08: 16 New
                +3
                Quote: siberalt
                We vote for amendments and no Hague is not afraid of us.


                Quote: siberalt
                Anyone who cannot defend their rights will be crushed with naked opo. You need to be strong as the USSR or as the Russian Empire of the 18-19th century.

                "Amendments decide everything"?

                What prevents, spit on them now, to pursue an independent policy?

                Lack of FORCE, or WILL at the leadership of the Russian Federation?

                And how should “amendments”, “zeroing” affect the appearance of these qualities in someone?

                "May force (and will) be amended"? belay
              2. The leader of the Redskins
                The leader of the Redskins 11 June 2020 08: 19 New
                -3
                Yes, but both the Russian Empire and the USSR supported international law! That is, "lived with wolves, howling like a wolf," and now we are trying to drag the blanket over ourselves alone.
                1. siberalt
                  siberalt 11 June 2020 08: 29 New
                  0
                  The USSR and our ancestors wrote international law by blood and force, and demanded its implementation by all who were in the zone of their influence. There is no other way. Dragging a blanket is not our time now. First you need to become strong. Everything goes to that, but very good. slow. The device must be cleaned, the system rebuilt. There are real leaders who are ready for this, but they are not appointed bulk.
                2. Igoresha
                  Igoresha 11 June 2020 10: 15 New
                  +1
                  supported international law!
                  this, apparently, is the main reason for the extradition of militias to Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Serbia
              3. Doliva63
                Doliva63 11 June 2020 19: 11 New
                +1
                Quote: siberalt
                Anyone who cannot defend their rights will be crushed with naked opo. You need to be strong as the USSR or as the Russian Empire of the 18-19th century.

                Will the amendments return us in those days? laughing
            4. ZAV69
              ZAV69 11 June 2020 09: 14 New
              +3
              And if you dig that in Russia is full of assets that belong to the same Holland for example. And these assets will be several times more Russian check over the hill.
            5. Doliva63
              Doliva63 11 June 2020 19: 07 New
              +1
              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              Russia has enough foreign assets (buildings, a joint venture, production and etc.) which, according to INTERNATIONAL law, can be taken away at the expense of compensation. And then it will be possible to stay with naked opera and ... the laid device.

              Moreover, the presence / absence of amendments can in no way affect this laughing
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 11 June 2020 08: 25 New
        +2
        Quote: siberalt
        Articles 15,17 of the colonial Yeltsin Constitution of the Russian Federation, determining the supremacy of international law over Russian.

        Only an enemy of Russia and his people could come up with this.
      3. aglet
        aglet 11 June 2020 10: 09 New
        -3
        Are you very sure about this? Do you think the partners will just take and let Russia go to their own laws? anyway, then they’ll come up with something so that the status of the colony does not change. and what do the laws of Russia mean, for example, the United States, or Belgium, or Estonia? absolutely nothing
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 11 June 2020 09: 16 New
      +2
      and not only that. only our documents began to prove that such missiles are not used in our country as they immediately found striking elements in the bodies similar to those that are already in the new ones. and the other day they somehow sharply turned on the fact that the rocket was different. 6 years was one and now suddenly another.
      1. military_cat
        military_cat 11 June 2020 10: 42 New
        -2
        Quote: carstorm 11
        the other day they somehow sharply turned on the fact that the rocket was different. 6 years was one and now suddenly another.

        The Dutch always had a talk about the "9M38 series", which includes 9M38 and 9M38M1. I-beams (which are used in the warhead of 9M38M1 missiles) were found back in 2014, which was then said. Now the same thing has been repeated in court.
    3. Hagen
      Hagen 11 June 2020 11: 56 New
      +1
      Quote: Volodin
      I don’t understand, but what, are you afraid of The Hague now?

      You are a literate person! You understand that the Hague, to a light bulb, is our constitution, as well as our Netherlands ... The main thing is that the authorities, neither these, nor the subsequent ones, should begin to sprinkle ashes on their heads and take responsibility, as happened with Katyn. You do not admit that in 10-15 years people can come to power, ready for the sake of the next IMF transshipment, the INF Treaty and another good purpose, to compromise, as they did in 2010? And to us, these decisions really hiccup. I think that is the point ...
  • aszzz888
    aszzz888 11 June 2020 07: 12 New
    +9
    An even more urgent question: does this mean that any statements and allegations from unknown people may appear in the case, which the prosecutor, having assigned alphanumeric codes, will call “witnesses”, because it is not possible to verify their presence or the veracity of their testimonies?
    They can, and there is no doubt about that. It’s not just that the testimony is attracted by the ears, but EVERYTHING is done to blame Russia. The Netherlands can also create a witness from the air, it all depends on the strength of the dope.
    1. siberalt
      siberalt 11 June 2020 08: 55 New
      0
      In fact, if Russia has nothing to take, everyone does not care about it. The main thing for us is what we have. Ukraine blames Russia for everything, and Russia blames America. But there’s only one thing - to take the public away from their internal problems to the chin. In any case, the Netherlands are not proper plaintiffs. The downed plane is not their property, and the relatives of the victims are not all of their subjects. There are no claims from a legally unorganized community of victims in nature. Here, everyone is for himself. But, for some reason, the main victim Malaysia is still silent, although he does not agree with the methods of political biased investigation. So, it’s too early to break spears and howl about some irresponsible inevitable punishments.
  • rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 11 June 2020 07: 13 New
    10
    X48
    And how many of these X .. have the prosecutor in stock? But the most striking thing is that
    His testimony is reliable
    I heard the launch, saw the burning grass (and where did the Buk go), the people in the headsets (probably got out of the burning grass to see what was launched and where), who look like those who stood at the checkpoint (the checkpoint is all in headsets and differs from this APU) ... And does the prosecutor say that? Complete insanity.
    1. alstr
      alstr 11 June 2020 07: 48 New
      +5
      This begs the legitimate question: how many times did the witness hear the launch of an anti-aircraft missile? Can he by ear determine the sound of the anti-aircraft missile launch from the launch of the ATGM?

      There is also a question about the military at the checkpoint: how did he find out that those who stand at the checkpoint belong to the DPR and DPR, and not the Armed Forces?
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 11 June 2020 08: 25 New
        +8
        Quote: alstr
        There is also a question about the military at the checkpoint: how did he find out that those who stand at the checkpoint belong to the DPR and DPR, and not the Armed Forces?

        Exactly, and aptly posed question. yes

        At 14m, a familiar kid had to take his mother to dill (it was not a simple life situation), and when he returned, at one of the checkpoints, people without identification marks and in anonymizing form asked "interesting" questions: "Who, where, ... your city of the DPR, or Ukraine?"

        In general, in that spirit ... Barely "wiggled" ...
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 11 June 2020 08: 31 New
        +3
        Quote: alstr
        This begs the legitimate question: how many times did the witness hear the launch of an anti-aircraft missile? Can he by ear determine the sound of the anti-aircraft missile launch from the launch of the ATGM?

        And did the witness see the Buk live. Anyway, "was the boy (witness). It seems that Ukrainian SBUshnikov were appointed as witnesses.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 11 June 2020 07: 16 New
    +7
    The trial, like the trial ... nothing else to expect there.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 11 June 2020 08: 35 New
      +3
      Quote: rocket757
      The trial, like the trial ... nothing else to expect there.

      As in the old "good" times: The landowner ordered the flogging and appointed 25 lashes, the trial is over.
  • gvozdan
    gvozdan 11 June 2020 07: 18 New
    +8
    It is also necessary for the defense to expose reliable digital witnesses who will tell you everything you need.
  • Olddetractor
    Olddetractor 11 June 2020 07: 31 New
    +7
    How gloriously the Dutch decide on the limits of proof, it’s a pleasure to watch. This is how an independent European court works! Are these judges the descendants of those who conducted trials of witches?
  • boris epstein
    boris epstein 11 June 2020 07: 36 New
    +5
    The Bukov column of 3 divisions of the 156th anti-aircraft missile regiment of the Ukrainian air defense went under its own power from Lugansk to Artyomovsk for loading. The column also has a firing system with tactical number 312. The column was photographed on a mobile phone in the area between the villages of Blagodatnoye and Praskoveevka in the Artemovsky district. And this video is on the Internet.
  • ANDREY MIKHAILOV_2
    ANDREY MIKHAILOV_2 11 June 2020 07: 39 New
    +4
    It can be seen when Buk was driving, his phone was discharged. The gentleman was taken for granted. The prosecutor Your word. I swear to my mother. But the circus is real.
  • Fungus
    Fungus 11 June 2020 07: 45 New
    +2
    A circus, not a court. It's not that serious.
  • pexotinec
    pexotinec 11 June 2020 07: 48 New
    +3
    The defense also needs to come up with a witness x51 who did not see the BUK there. And another five years, the brain will twist this circus tent (court).
    1. cost 75
      cost 75 11 June 2020 09: 44 New
      +1
      And also witness x52 who did not see witness x51 there at all
  • Sibguest
    Sibguest 11 June 2020 07: 55 New
    +3
    Citizens Dutch judges!
    I have a question for you: in my hem every year, in the spring, there is a knock.
    The witnesses are dumb, but I honestly say that I’m not lying.
    Can you tell me less according to the scientist - what a knock?
  • Slipper 2
    Slipper 2 11 June 2020 08: 03 New
    0
    It’s all for the Netherlands, it makes it difficult to forget the pain ...
  • cesar65
    cesar65 11 June 2020 08: 06 New
    +8
    I recall an old joke: Doctors gathered at the conference and discuss which doctors are better. German: we do a heart transplant. American: we have glass eyes implanted into a blind man and now he sees everything like an eagle. Russian: and we came to the peasant horse h ... n and now he is inseminating everyone. American: and who saw it. Russian: yes your man with glass eyes.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 11 June 2020 08: 24 New
    +5
    I can give evidence. Personally present when the Ukrainians launched the rocket and saw how it got into a Boeing. Give evidence via email or social networks?
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 11 June 2020 08: 31 New
      +5
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      I can give evidence. Personally present when the Ukrainians launched the rocket and saw how it got into a Boeing. Give evidence via email or social networks?

      Toka so ... "Flash drives from Gordon"The entire Hague is already clogged.

      1. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev 11 June 2020 08: 46 New
        -1
        Still so: I saw a Ukrainian Buk, three, he launched a rocket, three, shot down a Boeing, three pieces.
    2. Avior
      Avior 11 June 2020 09: 33 New
      0
      If you want to testify in you need here
      https://www.svs.law/en/news/office-news/defense-team-mh-17-inquiry/
      this is the law office that protects Pulatov.
      +31 (0)6 55836936
      [email protected]
      Martin van Putten
      or here
      Moscow College of Lawyers "Carpet and Partners"
      119180, Moscow, st. B. Yakimanka, d.1
      Telephone: + 7 495 777 88 15
      E-mail: [email protected]
      Elena Kutina
      1. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev 11 June 2020 17: 30 New
        0
        I'm afraid the Dutch court accepts only those testimonies that secret witnesses give in favor of the prosecutor's office. there are a bunch of real witnesses about the plane, plus you can bring at least hundreds of witnesses living in the area from which they launched the rocket, which can show that there was no launch (you cannot hide the rumble). But who needs truth there?
        I think the trial is just beginning. If the lawyers are normal, then they will start with an examination of the fragment, supposedly from Buk: the chemical composition, the thickness of the barrier that is needed to flatten the alloy steel (Buk brand), whether the steel can flatten against duralumin (funny). Next will be a bunch of witnesses. The court will stretch, I think for a couple of years.
        1. Avior
          Avior 11 June 2020 17: 33 New
          -2
          I gave you the phones of the lawyers and gave them, they know better in what form and how to present your testimony.
          As for the lawyers, they have access to the investigation materials, and we will see by their reaction what really can cause doubts and what not
          1. Viktor Sergeev
            Viktor Sergeev 11 June 2020 17: 34 New
            0
            Are you really pretending or don't understand sarcasm?
            1. Avior
              Avior 11 June 2020 17: 39 New
              -2
              Understand:))
              I clearly illustrate that compiling evidence or forging evidence in such a case is not an easy task.
              Actually, lawyers see what they can catch on to, what not.
              The people were piled on the ears in this matter so much that people can not understand what is true, what is not, and what is important and what is secondary.
              But according to lawyers and their reactions can be judged.
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 11 June 2020 08: 24 New
    +3
    They would have had a few nights at the bench with grannies ... oh, and they would have received information ... about 50 years of court work ... and instead of grannies, their grandchildren would have confirmed that they had repeatedly heard their statements about Masha from the 5th floor ... the government ... and the international setting shattered ...
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 11 June 2020 08: 26 New
    +3
    By the way, a man was taken to the hospital, is he supposed to have a million? This is not a joke, but a reality.
  • Fedorovich
    Fedorovich 11 June 2020 08: 39 New
    +2
    Yeah, I saw people in headsets. And I saw a wolf, a fox and a hare.
    And in general, I recall one Polish detective: "The witness could not see the receipt, because there was a bird with a pink plumage on it" ...
  • Pavel Shadoyan
    Pavel Shadoyan 11 June 2020 08: 51 New
    +2
    The girl who married a foreigner tells him after the wedding night:
    “Darling, I have to admit something to you: I have color blindness.”
    - I also have to admit something to you: I'm not a Swede, but an Ethiopian.
  • TatarinSSSR
    TatarinSSSR 11 June 2020 08: 55 New
    +2
    clown court of clown state
  • svp67
    svp67 11 June 2020 08: 59 New
    +5
    They are more and more reminiscent of those "gentlemen" who need to be believed "on the word ...".
    There are no photographs, but their representative has READ his exact description and is sure that everything is fine there, there is an “unknown” witness whom no one can provide protection for and because no one will ever know this witness, they are asked to provide Ukraine and Russia with their data radar stations, about the situation in that area at that time, Ukraine says, but they didn’t work for us .... ??????? But how did they escort many civilian aircraft? But Ukraine is believed "by word". And what Russia has provided is rejected by them as "not credible" ... There are a lot of shootings of the BUK air defense system in the area that belonged to the Ukrainian Armed Forces, but this is not even considered, since Ukraine seems to be simply "beyond suspicion".
    But if you figure out to whom this incident was beneficial, so in this list Ukraine shares the first place with the United States, but Russia is at the very end of the list.
  • ZaharoFF
    ZaharoFF 11 June 2020 09: 07 New
    +2
    What an interesting court. The Netherlands is forced to be a laughing stock. It is obvious. The performance is not finished, it will not end at all, it’s like (sorry) the Poles with their inanimate president and shovels will go on endlessly, shocking the audience with fantastic versions, one monstrous and dumber than the other.
  • Avior
    Avior 11 June 2020 09: 24 New
    -1
    Pulatov’s lawyers filed a disclosure complaint with 13 witnesses in April.
    The complaint was examined by the Hague District Court Council.
    The decision is to disclose the identity of one of the witnesses, 12 are considered to be at risk if their identity is disclosed, therefore they decided to leave them anonymous.
    Attorneys may additionally file disclosure appeals during the process.
    https://apnews.com/9ee34f5a8509f5b00100d5df7d26c9e8
  • Vasyan1971
    Vasyan1971 11 June 2020 09: 31 New
    +3
    Does this mean that any statements and statements from unknown people may appear in the case, which the prosecutor, having assigned alphanumeric codes, will call “witnesses”, because it is not possible to verify their presence or the veracity of their testimonies?

    After the “highly likes” nothing to be surprised. request
    1. HAM
      HAM 11 June 2020 09: 48 New
      +1
      If several times “hl” swept, then why not use this technique more than once ...
      Western man doesn’t need evidence, he’s sure the media can’t lie .... and .... why should he think?
      They ALREADY thought for them ....
      1. Vasyan1971
        Vasyan1971 11 June 2020 10: 32 New
        +1
        Quote: HAM
        If several times “hl” swept, then why not use this technique more than once ...

        Exactly. And then it will come into constant practice. First for strangers, and then for their own ...
  • Prisoner
    Prisoner 11 June 2020 09: 42 New
    +1
    Also work. Tupiye - that witnesses, that "judges".
  • Strashila
    Strashila 11 June 2020 10: 03 New
    +3
    for free to live in the West, at the expense of the West, they’ll not tell such a thing. Given all the "secrecy", they clearly asked for a witness protection program. "how the field lit up where the rocket was launched," the only paradox is that, after studying satellite images, the investigators could not find the launch site on the scorched earth, and the spot should not be small in order to hide it from the satellites.
    so these testimonies in one word, nonsense.
  • thinker
    thinker 11 June 2020 10: 15 New
    +2
    In ukroSMI is given an awesome quote X48
    In the afternoon of July 17, 2014, near the blockade of the self-proclaimed DPR on the road from Snezhnoye to Saur-Mogila, he saw Buk riding, and in a few minutes heard and saw that the rocket was launched.
    Rocket biathlon - raced, shot and further! fool
    https://interfax.com.ua/news/general/667903.html
    1. Cristall
      Cristall 11 June 2020 19: 52 New
      0
      Quote: thinker
      and a few minutes later he heard and saw that the rocket was launched.

      the phrase about a few minutes is familiar to everyone. It's up to half an hour. (Something like 5 minutes)
      What’s important is another thing that the prosecutor summarized from these statements
      X48 saw how the field caught fire, and knew where the rocket was launched, "the prosecutor detailed.

      one more witness
      Like the M58, the X48 was present at the shooting site.

      words are also interesting
      According to him, this is the same place that is shown in satellite images.

      pictures just terrain or at that time *?
      this witness was heard by the investigating judge in 2016 in the absence of the State Prosecutor's Office, which was given the opportunity to ask several written questions.

      that is, the GP will still ask him questions about the military ..
      1. Ruslan67
        Ruslan67 11 June 2020 19: 54 New
        0
        Quote: Cristall
        the phrase about a few minutes is familiar to everyone.

        And you Katya from fools ... what ..from the ban released?
  • Brigadier
    Brigadier 11 June 2020 10: 29 New
    -1
    It's like in a joke about Petka and Chapaev.

    Chapaev is returning from a business trip to England. He is dressed all with a needle, in a limousine, on his hands are rings with diamonds. Full trunk of money. Porters carry out a bunch of suitcases.
    Petka asks him in surprise:
    - Vasily Ivanovich, where did you get all this from?
    - Yes, Petka, I won the cards.
    - Like this?
    - I go to the club. Everyone is sitting there, drinking, playing cards.
    I looked closely - they are cutting into a point! I sat down at the table, took the cards.
    I have 18. And my English rival tells me that he has 20.
    I told him: "Present the cards!" And he - to me: "We, gentlemen, believe in the word."
    Here it is to me how hurt, how hurt ... laughing lol
  • doubovitski
    doubovitski 11 June 2020 10: 31 New
    0
    I will tell jokes:
    "15439". Why aren’t you laughing?
    "78309"
    Why don't you sue me? I, after all, insulted you in the blackest way.
  • doubovitski
    doubovitski 11 June 2020 10: 38 New
    0
    Quote: Victor Sergeev
    I can give evidence. Personally present when the Ukrainians launched the rocket and saw how it got into a Boeing. Give evidence via email or social networks?

    Start by organizing a bank account and publish its number. To prepare it to receive a testimony fee. Encrypt the readings. And, only after receiving the dough, give the decryption key. Come up with your own surname. And the host country.
  • steelmaker
    steelmaker 11 June 2020 10: 57 New
    0
    And so they judge everywhere, even in Russia. Remember the case of Ulyukaev. Chief witness Sechin did not testify in court. His statement was enough. In the same way, the Serbs were judged in The Hague. I am outraged that Russia is calmly reacting to such impudent lawlessness. Just do not tell me that Russia has no opportunities and ways.
  • Boris63
    Boris63 11 June 2020 11: 10 New
    0
    The 17th, to Saur’s grave ...? It seems like all July there was a uniform "meat grinder" ... And the dill flyers were still flying then. X ... 48 sculpts a hunchback, and the prosecutor in proportion.
  • 1536
    1536 11 June 2020 11: 25 New
    0
    Peter I would probably have boasted to the Dutch, having sent them the composition of the technical means of the Buk-M complex of Russian production:
    Command post 9С470М1-2;
    Self-propelled firing system 9A310M1-2;
    Start-up installation 9А39М1;
    Target detection station 9С18М1;
    technical service vehicle (MTO) 9V881M1-2 with a spare part trailer 9T456;
    workshop of technical maintenance (MTO) AGZ-M1;
    Repair and Maintenance Machines (MRTO):
    MRTO-1 9V883M1,
    MRTO-2 9V884M1,
    MRTO-3 9V894M1,
    9T243 transport vehicle with a set of technological equipment (CTO) 9T3184;
    automated control and testing mobile station (AKIPS) 9V95M1;
    9T458 missile repair machine (workshop);
    unified compressor station UKS-400V;
    mobile power station PES-100-T / 400-AKP1.

    This weapon system of the air defense forces does not function without any of its components, and even more so if this component is absent, it is not used in the performance of a combat mission.
    So what did this Ukrainian "eyewitness" see?
  • Igor Pa
    Igor Pa 11 June 2020 11: 39 New
    0
    In Holland x48 spoke out. I wonder what x69 will say!
  • Operator
    Operator 11 June 2020 11: 41 New
    0
    The criminal investigation consists of two parts - pre-trial (by the prosecutors) and judicial (by the judges). You can’t listen to the text of testimonies of living witnesses (even anonymous ones) in court: if you don’t want to reveal the identity of the witness to the public, listen to his answers through a video broadcast with distortion of the picture and sound. Moreover, for judges, the identity of the witness should be absolutely transparent.

    In this connection, a circus show is held in Holland, not a court.
  • zwlad
    zwlad 11 June 2020 11: 59 New
    0
    This is not a court, this is some kind of circus tent!
    But the most regrettable is that the decision of this circus will have legal force, and nothing can be done about it.
  • rotfuks
    rotfuks 11 June 2020 12: 24 New
    0
    Here I am a reserve officer. But BUK saw only from afar. And I am not able to determine its type and determine the type of rocket. But it seems that the territory of Donbass is teeming with specialists who are capable of looking at determining the type of missile and launcher. And such people are considered witnesses in court. But what is strange, the main witness, the Ukrainian dispatcher, was never presented either live or digitally. Or did the dispatcher go look for the pilot Voloshin?
  • iouris
    iouris 11 June 2020 12: 26 New
    +1
    And I did not see anything like this (I ask you to add it to the protocol and attach to the case).
  • Lester7777
    Lester7777 11 June 2020 12: 33 New
    0
    What's the problem? I don’t understand. “He saw ...” We have nearly 145 million witnesses who have not seen.
  • 123456789
    123456789 11 June 2020 12: 36 New
    0
    The devil is in the details:
  • yfast
    yfast 11 June 2020 12: 50 New
    -1
    Let them prove to themselves that Russia is to blame, they themselves will be fined, I do not mind, but to pay officials and oligarchs with foreign real estate. Then even an incentive will appear for the planes of that ... until the depletion of the stock of real estate over the hill. Let,, in Russia live with their children.
    1. iouris
      iouris 11 June 2020 16: 10 New
      0
      Quote: yfast
      I do not mind, but in order to pay foreign real estate officials and oligarchs

      This is all stolen from the USSR and the population of the Russian Federation.
  • LeonidL
    LeonidL 11 June 2020 21: 58 New
    0
    "He also heard how the rocket started, saw it. X48 saw the field catch fire where the rocket launched. He says that after the launch of the rocket he rode out onto the road and saw 4 soldiers in the same khaki uniform, they were all wearing tank headsets. These soldiers looked exactly like those standing at the checkpoint through which he was passing. "- And the dead with braids are standing! And the most piquant one is" four soldiers in the same uniform of hakia in tank headsets! Are these militias or terrorists from the Armed Forces? Why stand at the checkpoint in tank headsets? Where did the militias have the same uniform? A very reliable witness from the series “The Ukrainian night is quiet.” But did you see the installation “reliable” and immediately determined “Buk”? Just as the blacksmith Vakula, on his way back from St. Petersburg, grabbed a Buk on a dash and delivered it to the militias. ostoy!
  • NF68
    NF68 12 June 2020 16: 18 New
    0
    Let the Internet look for data. Suddenly, and there something was laid out by any of the eyewitnesses, such as Putin personally controlled the air defense system. Or, at worst, Shaigu .. And on this basis alone, it will be possible to start sewing the case.
  • lvov_aleksey
    lvov_aleksey 13 June 2020 23: 51 New
    0
    there was infa for a long time, but nobody wants to remember about it, board number 1 of the Russian Federation in September 2014, where did it fly from, what route? (ps only delayed for 30 minutes)