American magazine Wired: Soviet military cartographers failed to surpass anyone


After the collapse of the Soviet Union, military cards began to fall into the hands of Western collectors, which had never previously existed in the public domain, since they were classified. It turned out that they are much more accurate and detailed than any of their counterparts from other countries.


About this writes the American magazine Wired.

During the Cold War in the Soviet Union, the military compiled maps of cities and regions of various countries of the world. They indicated such details that could not be found on local maps. For example, using these cards, you could find the carrying capacity of bridges, the width of roads, types of industrial enterprises, and much more.

The author of the article, Greg Miller, believes that such cards would be invaluable if you are planning an invasion. But he thinks that their purpose is much wider, since information was also indicated that could hardly be useful to the military. For example, they were unlikely to find the location of bus stops in some Texas town.

Miller suggested that the purpose of these cards goes far beyond military interests. He believes that they performed for the Soviet leadership the function of something between the Google maps and Wikipedia, only on paper.

It is not known exactly how many such cards existed, but, presumably, the bill goes to millions.

It is not surprising that when the USSR stumbled and it was started to be pulled apart, enterprising foreigners began to buy up secret cards for nothing from individual, dishonest, Soviet troops. They were able to make good money on their resale, making this a real business. It was then that Soviet military cards became the standard for cartographers around the world. They could not be surpassed by anyone.

The director of the American company EastView Geospatial, specializing in the resale of secret cards made in the USSR, once spoke of Soviet cartography as follows:

Cartographic culture for Russia is like a wine culture for France.
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  1. Starover_Z 31 May 2020 15: 10 New
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    when the USSR stumbled and it began to be pulled apart in pieces, enterprising foreigners began to buy up secret cards for nothing from individual, dishonest, Soviet soldiers.

    If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing, then why and for whom should he keep maps of foreign countries, for example?
    Especially if senior officials sold him and his homeland entirely for "30 pieces of silver" !!!
    1. SRC P-15 31 May 2020 15: 15 New
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      Quote: Starover_Z
      If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing, then why and for whom should he keep maps of foreign countries, for example?
      Especially if senior officials sold him and his homeland entirely for "30 pieces of silver" !!!

      It was with such views and attitudes towards their homeland that the USSR also profiled!
    2. carstorm 11 31 May 2020 15: 18 New
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      What are you? this is generally called treason. in WWII, people also wanted to eat. had to surrender everything for this ?! you are carrying some kind of nonsense. no matter how the guidance comes before a conscience, we bear a personal answer.
      1. Starover_Z 31 May 2020 17: 13 New
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        Quote: carstorm 11
        What are you? this is generally called treason. in WWII, people also wanted to eat. had to surrender everything for this ?! you are carrying some kind of nonsense. no matter how the guidance comes before a conscience, we bear a personal answer.

        Only we must bear a personal answer to conscience ?! How much military equipment was thrown in the countries of the former Warsaw Treaty, in our former garrisons ?! Or all, taken out to the cog ?! No secret or the latest technology was left there, to which, in the days of the USSR, the Americans could only lick their lips ?! And if the equipment behind which the conscripts were sitting and which was left, the conscripts had to drive under their own power to the Union, so that the "partner" enemies didn’t get to ?!
        And the manual, of course, okay, see a "hole" like what and how to do? That's right, it’s like now - steal a bag of flour and get 5 years or appropriate a couple of billions in cash, share and get a house arrest!
        1. Aag
          Aag 31 May 2020 17: 56 New
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          Yes, there are two big differences: to obey the orders of higher bosses (traitors), being bound by the Oath, the Charter of the USSR Armed Forces, and to take personal initiative, or, gentleness, in the sale of the Motherland ... Persian-speaking commentator, apparently, is not familiar with such concepts. due to age ....
        2. not main 1 June 2020 00: 12 New
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          Quote: Starover_Z
          Quote: carstorm 11
          What are you? this is generally called treason. in WWII, people also wanted to eat. had to surrender everything for this ?! you are carrying some kind of nonsense. no matter how the guidance comes before a conscience, we bear a personal answer.

          Only we must bear a personal answer to conscience ?! How much military equipment was thrown in the countries of the former Warsaw Treaty, in our former garrisons ?! Or all, taken out to the cog ?! No secret or the latest technology was left there, to which, in the days of the USSR, the Americans could only lick their lips ?! And if the equipment behind which the conscripts were sitting and which was left, the conscripts had to drive under their own power to the Union, so that the "partner" enemies didn’t get to ?!
          And the manual, of course, okay, see a "hole" like what and how to do? That's right, it’s like now - steal a bag of flour and get 5 years or appropriate a couple of billions in cash, share and get a house arrest!

          Briefly, military equipment in the Warsaw Treaty countries did not rush! Moreover, everything was exported! Of course, in addition to capital facilities! Personally, he took part in the loading of weapons and other equipment. For reference, the whole month the personnel worked as loaders, and then flew to the USSR with the entire regiment! Unfortunately, the Ukrainian SSR!
        3. syndicalist 1 June 2020 11: 24 New
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          Quote: Starover_Z
          get 5 years or appropriate a couple of billions in cash, share and get a house arrest!

          or the post of head of Roskosmos
      2. Shurik_2 1 June 2020 00: 25 New
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        Sorry, but you are talking nonsense. In the Second World War there was a country of the USSR, yes, there is no doubt treason. But when the Union collapsed, there was no betrayal. The military were not only Russians, but also the remaining 14 republics. Well, we see now how they relate to us. So for them it’s not a betrayal, but revenge and a way to make money on it. But at the expense of the bus stops and the arrival time, it’s not like the military, how the special services used it (how to get there, how to get off, where to make an appointment, etc.) This is for the author of this article.
    3. Civil 31 May 2020 15: 28 New
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      Now that everything is digitized,
      1. carstorm 11 31 May 2020 15: 36 New
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        paper will not be removed in any case. they did it and will do it. here it’s how it is done.
        1. dedusik 31 May 2020 19: 49 New
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          Naturally, what will Kroki do on the tablet, which can be bent at any moment or transfer data to third parties?
      2. Doliva63 31 May 2020 17: 47 New
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        Quote: Civil
        Now that everything is digitized,

        The speed of the rivers, horizontal heights - too? I’m not talking about the width and material of roads, the carrying capacity of bridges, etc., etc. laughing
        1. shkiper83 1 June 2020 10: 06 New
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          It is even easier to digitize
          1. Doliva63 1 June 2020 16: 56 New
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            Quote: shkiper83
            It is even easier to digitize

            But for this you need to take somewhere the numbers. From old soviet maps? laughing
          2. Potter 1 June 2020 19: 28 New
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            Go through the terrain, describe it, collect information. 3D cartography now provides excellent terrain (elevations); everything else requires a cartographer to work on the ground and with many sources.
    4. Doctor 31 May 2020 15: 30 New
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      If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing, then why and for whom should he keep maps of foreign countries, for example?

      It's not about cards with printed objects. And about the quality itself.
      Here the Wired magazine is right - our topographic maps of the Soviet period are the best in the world.

      Yesterday I read Sergey Bolashenko’s blog, writes about the world's railways and travels cheaply.
      He compared different maps for travel, his conclusion:

      Soviet cartography is without a doubt the best in the world. Americans do not know how to make cards in the normal way! Local (issued in the USA) maps to the territory of this country are terrible in quality. Like all other foreign cards.

      I recommend for those who want to see the real America (uzhos!).
      http://infojd.ru/dop/poezdka2014us-1.html

      The text contains links to maps of the Soviet period of issue.
      1. carstorm 11 31 May 2020 15: 34 New
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        they are still excellent. Even in the nineties, topographers were guarded at any level.
      2. BARKAS 31 May 2020 16: 11 New
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        One quality is not enough they still need to be updated regularly and high-quality but outdated cards often do more harm to the army than good.
        1. Nyrobsky 31 May 2020 22: 11 New
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          Quote: BARKAS
          One quality is not enough they still need to be updated regularly and high-quality but outdated cards often do more harm to the army than good.

          I had the opportunity to use such maps on which, after many years, the indicated roads and lodges have already been overgrown with forest, and settlements have disappeared. Where the ferry was indicated, it’s been a decade and a half since bridges were built, etc. The only thing that remained impeccably relevant was railways, and, as mentioned above, the speed of the current, depths, characteristics of the bottom of the rivers, passability or passability of swamps, heights, etc. Apparently for this reason, for most cards, the privacy stamp was reduced from "secret" to "chipboard" back in the mid-90s.
          1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 1 June 2020 09: 03 New
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            And here I will argue with you: there were military topographic detachments in the SA who wandered around the country and found changes and made them to the current maps, and then reprinted them with the changes. We, builders, handed over executive schemes to the city departments of geodesy for particularly relevant and important structures, which in turn sent the changes to the USSR State Civil Administration and collected them, generalized them and, I think, collaborated with the USSR Ministry of Defense. Our civilian cards all had the “Chipboard” stamp, as well as stock materials on surveying. As it was in the USSR Ministry of Defense, I don’t remember anymore - about thirty years have passed since the service. So the changes were made - this is definitely!
          2. ccsr 1 June 2020 12: 19 New
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            Quote: Nyrobsky
            Where the ferry was indicated, it’s been a decade and a half since bridges were built, etc. The only thing that remained impeccably relevant was railways, and, as mentioned above, the speed of the current, depths, characteristics of the bottom of the rivers, passability or passability of swamps, heights, etc. Apparently for this reason, for most cards, the privacy stamp was reduced from "secret" to "chipboard" back in the mid-90s.

            I don’t know if you served, but each officer, starting with the commander of a separate company and above, had his own work card, with which he went out at least once a month for reconnaissance at the deployment site (in some structures this was done by NS or the first deputy) , and where all the changes that occurred on the ground were made. At least it was in the GSVG in my time. Therefore, there is no need to exaggerate about the cards - those who were supposed to have carefully worked out their cards, and this will be confirmed by those who served in the army for many years.
            And the neck was removed because it did not make sense to keep it when a huge number of our cards turned out to be in the Baltic republics and they were handed over to NATO. Why then keep the vulture, especially since the loss of a secret card, even without the situation, caused a penalty.
            1. Doliva63 1 June 2020 18: 55 New
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              A colleague, his own work card in the SA was starting with the commander of a tank / infantry platoon. lol We had a reconnaissance once every half a year. And they usually specified the map through the AFS or satellite; no one traveled once a month. I don’t remember the frequency, but every time before the “transfer” to the exercises - for sure. drinks
              1. ccsr 1 June 2020 19: 13 New
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                Quote: Doliva63
                A colleague, his own work card in the SA was starting with the commander of a tank / infantry platoon.

                I was not talking about this card, but about those with whom they work in the "dark room", if you know what it is. A strictly limited circle of persons is admitted to it.
                Quote: Doliva63
                And they usually specified the map through the AFS or satellite; no one traveled once a month.

                I’m afraid that you simply don’t know how one day a week your NS (or commander) worked with combat readiness documents, and where he went with them. These events were not advertised in order to hide genuine deployment areas, which only the commander and NS knew about.
                1. Doliva63 2 June 2020 19: 54 New
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                  Quote: ccsr
                  Quote: Doliva63
                  A colleague, his own work card in the SA was starting with the commander of a tank / infantry platoon.

                  I was not talking about this card, but about those with whom they work in the "dark room", if you know what it is. A strictly limited circle of persons is admitted to it.
                  Quote: Doliva63
                  And they usually specified the map through the AFS or satellite; no one traveled once a month.

                  I’m afraid that you simply don’t know how one day a week your NS (or commander) worked with combat readiness documents, and where he went with them. These events were not advertised in order to hide genuine deployment areas, which only the commander and NS knew about.

                  There, in the 20th Guards of the GSVG, we had one goal - West Berlin. Our task was to "block" the American "rangers" in the RPM. Not a "job" for scouts, but where to go. Every six months we went to them, watched what had changed. And the "genuine deployment areas" we were not worried about. in any case, we were waiting for the side where we had never been. Here in 8 Guards, there, yes, everything was somehow muddy, I don’t even remember much what and how. It seems that 11 OBRKP loomed somewhere. And in the days of the 20th Guards Military Intelligence Brigadier General Rogers I remember - the beginning of intelligence of the ARB in the 89th. There are even pictures of how they drank vodka in a tent laughing drinks
            2. Nyrobsky 1 June 2020 19: 11 New
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              Quote: ccsr
              At least it was in the GSVG in my time. Therefore, there is no need to exaggerate about the cards - those who were supposed to carefully worked out their cards, and this will be confirmed by those who served in the army for many years.

              Nobody exaggerates. You are talking about the times when the GVH existed, but meanwhile, since the Warsaw Treaty was liquidated, a quarter of a century has passed. I don’t argue, at that time the maps were quite complete and accurate, but I’m talking about a much later period indicating that -
              I used to use such cards, on which, after many years, the indicated roads and lodges have already been overgrown with forest, and settlements have disappeared.
              A quarter of a century for cards is also not a weak period, after which serious adjustments are necessary.
              Quote: ccsr
              And the neck was removed because it did not make sense to keep it when a huge number of our cards turned out to be in the Baltic republics and they were handed over to NATO.
              Each district had its own maps. In the Baltic States, there were no SKVO, SVO, SibVO cards, including the NATO members, of course, raped something, but fortunately, not all.
              Quote: ccsr
              Why then keep the vulture, especially since the loss of a secret card, even without the situation, caused a penalty.
              I don’t know how the transfer of the liquidated military unit to local Aborigines was carried out, but probably the secret officers destroyed the “secret” under the act, or took them out. Although many of these cards remained with the military enlistment offices. But what can we say about maps, if in all the departing republics there were cipher bodies, with equipment and key outfits that were in the unified system of the USSR. Then, in general, with the breakdown of the USSR, along the way, they broke a lot of firewood, which fell to the NATO members and the Western intelligence services for a ball.
              1. ccsr 1 June 2020 19: 52 New
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                Quote: Nyrobsky
                Each district had its own maps. In the Baltic States, there were no SKVO, SVO, SibVO cards, including the NATO members, of course, raped something, but fortunately, not all.

                This is not entirely true, because everything depended on the kit ordered at the district warehouse of the topographic service. I got everything from mine, right up to Moscow, when I returned. These depots were in every district, so believe me, the NATO troops got everything that was there.
                Quote: Nyrobsky
                But what can we say about maps, if in all the departing republics there were cipher bodies, with equipment and key outfits that were in the unified system of the USSR.

                Here I am about the same thing - there were no topographic maps to the district warehouses, because the trains had to be pulled in there in order to take everything out.
                Quote: Nyrobsky
                Then, in general, with the breakdown of the USSR, along the way, they broke a lot of firewood, which fell to the NATO members and the Western intelligence services for a ball.

                That is exactly what happened. So also some of our former colleagues in the service of NATO fellows — they laid all out to curry favor.
                1. Nyrobsky 1 June 2020 21: 43 New
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                  Quote: ccsr
                  That is exactly what happened. So also some of our former colleagues in the service of NATO fellows - they all laid out to curry favor.

                  This is yes. I remember how some of our officers after the collapse of the USSR departed to their republics, but after some time, some of them returned back, to serve, but already in positions lower than those that they held before the transfer, and not in command but in units. But this is the third thing ... It just so happened that during special events in the northern taiga, at the beginning of the 2000th thousandth, I had the opportunity to use a map that indicated that it was compiled on the basis of a 1984 survey. We walked along the north-south quarter, and reached the intersection of the south-west quarters. On the General Staff map, the quarter was indicated as a straight line, and we came to a standstill. Having worked from the point of interlocking of quarters in different directions, we found a shift of quarters of meters by 70-100 to the east, and continued to move. When reconciling the map with the tourist, this offset of the quarters on the tourist map was indicated. This suggests that there was no docking (reconciliation) of cartographers with forest managers, and forest managers, in my opinion, did not work at all after the collapse of the USSR. the support of neighborhoods and the restoration of quarterly columns, people supported themselves in their hunting areas, because without knowing the quarterly grid in those places you can get lost for one or two. These same people have kindly provided us with information about their huts and borrowings. The closer to Russia the smaller the quarter, the farther to the North the more - in the Kirov region 1kmX2 km, Komi from 1X2 to 2X4, Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug from 2x4 to 4X8. In general, this topic is very extensive both in theory and in practice. Let's end with this hi
                  1. ccsr 2 June 2020 11: 42 New
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                    Quote: Nyrobsky
                    This suggests that there was no docking (verification) of cartographers with forest managers, and forest managers, in my opinion, did not work at all after the collapse of the USSR, because the support of neighborhoods and the restoration of quarterly columns, people supported themselves in their hunting areas, because without knowing the quarterly grid in those places you can get lost for one or two.

                    This is not surprising, because in the nineties the General Staff was shrinking, and the Military Topographical Directorate, which was not even the Main Directorate, also suffered losses, which naturally affected the quality of work in terms of updating maps. In a word, there was such a mess that there was no time for lumberjacks, that's why you saw what it led to already on the spot.
      3. About this we were still authoritatively declared at a military school. And, as proof, they gave me a look at the maps of the FRG army and the American one. Honestly, at first glance it was generally not clear what and where - the drawings of children are more accurate and understanding!
      4. Doliva63 31 May 2020 18: 09 New
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        My schoolmate had a dad who was a simple military topographer, so he has all his biography before the army - Mexico, USA, England. laughing
    5. pipetro 31 May 2020 15: 38 New
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      So we lived to the point where people are completely unashamed in their blue eyes talking about the betrayal of the country as something completely normal and with a bunch of exclamation marks ..
      1. rocket757 31 May 2020 16: 01 New
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        Late now, the hairs to tear. This is a lesson for the future.
        Who will learn it and how is this a question?
    6. Normal 31 May 2020 17: 08 New
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      Varning !!! - "Consumer Sapies" detected !!! Alarm !!!
      1. Insurgent 31 May 2020 17: 13 New
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        Cards, cards ...

        On the online service map https://bestmaps.ru/ the front line in the DNI is marked almost as the state border.
    7. svp67 31 May 2020 18: 47 New
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      Quote: Starover_Z
      If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing, then why and for whom should he keep maps of foreign countries, for example?
      Especially if senior officials sold him and his homeland entirely for "30 pieces of silver" !!!

      You know the impression that you share your life experience and how you justified yourself ... negative
    8. Oyo Sarkazmi 31 May 2020 19: 12 New
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      Quote: Starover_Z
      If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing,

      Most of the cards were not sold - they were simply presented. Colleagues from the USA arrived at the headquarters of the Northern Fleet, saw a map of the salinity profiles of the Arctic Ocean, were surprised, asked and received as a gift. And on this map, a submarine can determine its position up to a dozen kilometers, simply by taking a sample of sea water. Gor-Shevardnadze line: asked - please. Drawings Yak-141 - but why the heck we need them! The "wasp" did not fall under the INF Treaty, the Americans were about to bargain - our "negotiator" introduced it directly into a draft, without consulting anyone. Sorry, or what?
      A complex of Soviet inferiority and complete infantilism in economic and military activities. Third-generation lackeys, constantly looking for a master.
      1. ccsr 1 June 2020 12: 37 New
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        Quote: Oyo Sarkazmi
        Most of the cards were not sold - they were simply presented. Colleagues from the USA arrived at the headquarters of the Northern Fleet, saw a map of the salinity profiles of the Arctic Ocean, were surprised, asked and received as a gift.

        Do not drive the wave - after the collapse of the USSR, a huge amount of our classified materials appeared both in the Warsaw Treaty countries and in the former Soviet republics. Are you sure that the Americans did not already have this card, from the same Germans or our Baltic states from naval bases? There was a list of secret equipment and documents that the NNA of the GDR was obliged to return to us, and they did it, that's just what kind of stamp can such materials have, if we naturally assumed that copies were already taken from them.
        But I do not deny that some of our fools did give permission to transmit to our enemies what was of interest to them. But the matter is not only in lackeys, but in the fact that some smart people have already realized that it makes no sense to keep in secret what has already come to our opponent, that’s why you don’t have to cut everyone under one comb.
    9. Interlocutor 31 May 2020 21: 22 New
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      If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing, then why and for whom should he keep maps of foreign countries, for example?
      Especially if senior officials sold him and his homeland entirely for "30 pieces of silver" !!!


      A. A ready traitor, and he has already come up with an excuse.
    10. rc56 1 June 2020 07: 28 New
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      There really was “nothing to eat” to those officers from the Pacific Fleet command who TAKR Minsk and Takr Novorossiysk sold cheaper than scrap metal and transferred to China and Korea without removing secret equipment, and without even taking secret documents from safes .. .
    11. Nitarius 1 June 2020 07: 40 New
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      interesting .. such parents will be sold to anyone!
    12. NEXUS 1 June 2020 15: 17 New
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      Quote: Starover_Z
      If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing, then why and for whom should he keep maps of foreign countries, for example?
      Especially if senior officials sold him and his homeland entirely for "30 pieces of silver" !!!

      That is, in your opinion, everything is sold and everything is bought. Do you yourself understand what utter chuhnina they scratched here?
      1. Doliva63 1 June 2020 19: 09 New
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        Quote: NEXUS
        Quote: Starover_Z
        If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing, then why and for whom should he keep maps of foreign countries, for example?
        Especially if senior officials sold him and his homeland entirely for "30 pieces of silver" !!!

        That is, in your opinion, everything is sold and everything is bought. Do you yourself understand what utter chuhnina they scratched here?

        "Everything on this market is for sale ..." Berkeley, in my opinion, is the century before last. What did you want from capitalism? But here it is - "Chukhna", I was interested. Where did you get it, I wonder?
        1. NEXUS 1 June 2020 20: 15 New
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          Quote: Doliva63
          But here it is - "Chukhna", I was interested. Where did you get it, I wonder?

          Personal nano-invention. hi
          1. Doliva63 2 June 2020 19: 56 New
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            Quote: NEXUS
            Quote: Doliva63
            But here it is - "Chukhna", I was interested. Where did you get it, I wonder?

            Personal nano-invention. hi

            Come on. Strugatsky, go and read it? laughing
            1. NEXUS 2 June 2020 21: 31 New
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              Quote: Doliva63
              Strugatsky, go and read it?

              Sometimes ... but my technology)
              1. Doliva63 3 June 2020 22: 01 New
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                Quote: NEXUS
                Quote: Doliva63
                Strugatsky, go and read it?

                Sometimes ... but my technology)

                Clear, quiet schizophrenic, like me drinks
  2. Lord of the Sith 31 May 2020 15: 16 New
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    About maps and strategy))
    1. PilotS37 31 May 2020 18: 42 New
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      Thank! Pleased ...
  3. Region-25.rus 31 May 2020 15: 19 New
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    Quote: Starover_Z
    when the USSR stumbled and it began to be pulled apart in pieces, enterprising foreigners began to buy up secret cards for nothing from individual, dishonest, Soviet soldiers.

    If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing, then why and for whom should he keep maps of foreign countries, for example?
    Especially if senior officials sold him and his homeland entirely for "30 pieces of silver" !!!

    and someone else, under equal conditions, did not sell! I know both these and these! So the first ones were scum, which were covered by conditions. And the second were People. And they got out in other ways, but they did not sell their homeland.
  4. Free wind 31 May 2020 15: 22 New
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    Only ordinary people, on the terrain, were guided by a bundle of White Sea. Well, or on a school atlas.
    1. Reserve buildbat 31 May 2020 15: 50 New
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      No need to lie, Alexander. There were excellent maps of tourist, automobile, sports. GSh differed from maps only in “white spots” and in a certain shift of coordinates, so that the “points” would not be displayed. I remember both the "civilian" and the military cards (and those used for the KShU with the drawn points of nuclear strikes, etc.) As for civilians, as for military cards it was perfectly possible to navigate, and going for mushrooms often took these cards.
      1. Free wind 31 May 2020 16: 22 New
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        You can have a little bit of fun. There were various atlases. But here’s more about a ten-page layout as it didn’t come across at that time. The incident was in the year 89. In the UAZ, we reached the place of the future pontoon crossing, mid-June, the flood is already in decline. A Muscovite arrives, a crawling Muscovite driver dumbfounded at a raging stream, 150 meters wide and in an atlas. Suitable asks, am I right ?, right. Where is the road? no? But here it is! so go. According to the atlas, the ferry operates from the first of April to December. And the ice drift happens even until June! And another month the water is raging.
        1. Reserve buildbat 31 May 2020 16: 26 New
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          Here I agree with you laughing
          With the "fords" and "ferries" this happened, and not very rarely. What can I do, the calculation was not for "Muscovites-UAZ", but for armored vehicles laughing
          1. Aag
            Aag 31 May 2020 18: 26 New
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            Well ... Rather, everything was designed for competent (in the sense of cartography, as the user is now saying): I can be mistaken, but explanations went to the normal map (I hope the specialists will correct it) - the flow velocity, depth (ford) to various seasons (according to the results of many annual observations) ... 1st: if you take, for example, the Siberian rivers, then the water flow can change by orders of magnitude within a few hours! It’s calm to cross in the swamps, then, at the same depth , knocks down. The speed of the stream, the width of the floodplain ... Again, I hope that specialists will chew. 2nd: rapid climate change. No, I'm not a supporter of G. Tumberg. But, on micro examples (up to a single garden ), the trend is very clear. I don’t take into account other aspects of the problem, but massive deforestation, strongly, and, most importantly, is a little predictable, and very sharply, affects the “water circulation in nature” (IMNIP: 4th environmental science textbook class of the USSR school of general education).
            1. Reserve buildbat 31 May 2020 18: 32 New
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              I also partially agree) We have the Serga River. In summer, you can go on foot almost everywhere. In spring, the water level rises by an average of 3 meters. And this is with a river width of 10-20 meters. Chusovaya in the spring and rises 7 meters. This is me, as a raftsman says. But the cards with all the legends could not take into account that last year the flood was at the end of May, and this one at the end of April. So guess when to get there. laughing
              1. Aag
                Aag 31 May 2020 19: 09 New
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                I agree.
                The river "perelyuyka", - wade across (Tunkinskaya Valley), - the next day, - the Belarus tractor came up to pull out the drowned UAZ, the Ministry of Emergencies pulled up, -the bodies of two guys to look, -on the horses that went upstream. The landscape changed (for night) dramatically: although the width, speed of the river is almost the same ... But the boulders (30-60 kg each), trunks of brought trees! Impressed ....
                Therefore, (there was still access to normal maps, I didn’t find a contradiction). Apparently, then they "answered for the bazaar" ...
        2. Humpty 31 May 2020 19: 44 New
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          Quote: Free Wind
          There were various atlases

          In atlases and civil maps I saw one road that never existed at all, sometimes they still ask about it. Also, the marked cattle drive path, where it could not exist in principle, has not yet been invented by the propeller for donkeys. Another example, find the Soviet physical map of the world, where the highest point of the Kun-Lun mountain system in China was Ulugmuztag mountain, supposedly 7723 m. On new maps, this mountain 6900 + I don’t remember exactly how much, it's its real height.
      2. really 31 May 2020 18: 15 New
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        The civil maps were so-so, the Karelian lakes did not match either along the coastline or in the direction of the cardinal directions, the shift was by degrees
      3. Pavel57 31 May 2020 18: 28 New
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        I remember the tourists who walked on German maps of the Second World War. They were accurate enough in the details. Domestic cards of this level were not available.
        1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 1 June 2020 09: 11 New
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          They said that the German maps had our geodetic base, so I don’t know, I don’t know. And as for the availability of our cards - why did the people have to have them? There were tourist and geographical maps. And go on the artillery two-layer mushrooms? Correctly and did that did not give to the people! Extra people do not need.
  5. Lepilo 31 May 2020 15: 24 New
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    After the collapse of the Soviet Union, military cards began to fall into the hands of Western collectors, which had never existed before in the public domain, since they were classified

    Fritz in June 1941, too, praised our cards ... But in our troops this was not.!
    1. carstorm 11 31 May 2020 15: 35 New
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      Oh. well enough! Seriously. the war is won. in full. whoever said anything on the Reichstag, the banner hung if they forgot.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. carstorm 11 31 May 2020 15: 57 New
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          I'm wildly sorry, but maybe it's worth sobering up and reading carefully?
        2. ApJlekuHo 31 May 2020 16: 03 New
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          on the Reichstag a banner hung if they forgot

          And we Russian fluttering

          You both, Russians like me Iroquois .. First and most importantly, the flag was set on the Reichstag building, and it "hung" or "waved", of course you can see the verbiage.
    2. sabakina 31 May 2020 15: 55 New
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      Quote: Lepilo
      Fritz in June 1941, too, praised our cards ... But in our troops this was not.!
      Che, on a pack of "Belomor Channel" went to the counterattack? belay
    3. Lord of the Sith 31 May 2020 16: 25 New
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      The Fritz had just the same outdated maps, almost of imperial times. And flies about this often.
    4. tagil 31 May 2020 17: 58 New
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      Fritz in June 1941, too, praised our cards ... But in our troops this was not.!
      Originously. And where did the Fritz then take our cards do not tell me? Wait, I'll guess. The chain dogs of Stalin from the NKVD did everything in their power to prevent the distribution of cards to the red commanders, and when fleeing they threw entire warehouses with cards without even bothering to burn them. Guessed?
      1. Free wind 1 June 2020 07: 56 New
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        White officers of a ten-page card were dragged by tons after the revolution. Villages and houses have changed, the landscape is not.
        1. tagil 1 June 2020 08: 36 New
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          The conversation was about the 41st year. And decors are still staff cards.
        2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 1 June 2020 09: 24 New
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          [quote = Free wind] Villages and houses have changed, the landscape is not
          As a builder (a little military, but all my life as a civilian) I will say this: depending on what period of time - both buildings and landscape change. So, if the former whites brought cards from the front in 1918, then twenty years later they needed them except for wallpapering or wallpapering so that it would not be boring to sit there! And over fifty years, the changes are generally enormous, both in the European part of the USSR and in the Asian.
          1. Free wind 1 June 2020 09: 54 New
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            It's about 1941. The landscape hasn’t changed much, well, there were simply no large-scale changes, DneproGES is probably the exception, aerial photo data were superimposed on it. According to Rudel's memoirs, having studied the maps, I knew the area better than the locals, because I also knew the location of military facilities.
            1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 1 June 2020 10: 53 New
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              And I'm talking about 1941 ... Yes, in the European part of our country there have been such changes that other countries have never dreamed of and it took centuries to do this. We from the agrarian RI became the industrial USSR! Cities, towns, infrastructure, etc. appeared. Please compare the lengths of roads and railways at the end of February 1917 and the end of May 1941. Here is the answer. But any roads are not just roads - this changes the survey of the strip with a width of at least 100 meters, and the maximum - see the executive documentation of the constructed road, plus gas stations, bridges, tunnels, shops, pubs and more. The "zero balance" method is correct, but not for this case. And how many factories, factories, engineering networks and structures were built during this time. So the changes for those interwar twenty years were colossal. We didn’t dream of such things in 1970-80, although we didn’t wipe our pants with chairs ... Stalinist industrialization is not what happened to us later.
      2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 1 June 2020 09: 15 New
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        Suvorov remembered? So you can’t believe a single word !!! Although ... like he wrote then about tons of maps of neighboring countries, thrown by ours near the border. I don’t remember exactly. Correct if not so.
        1. tagil 1 June 2020 09: 20 New
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          After reading the first book of Suvorov, I didn’t read his masterpieces anymore, so I can’t say anything about tons of maps of neighboring countries thrown by ours near the border, since we weren’t going to attack Germany, which meant that there were nowhere to get tons of maps. But in the second half of the 41st year, we had problems with topographic maps. But at the beginning of the war there were no problems with them.
          1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 1 June 2020 09: 37 New
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            Maybe so! I will not argue.
    5. your1970 1 June 2020 16: 43 New
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      The problem was that there were cards, and there were supplies of cards, but everything died in the first month of the war.
      It was problematic to print quickly such volumes + all paper raw materials were spent on the manufacture of gunpowder
  6. Alexey from Perm 31 May 2020 15: 28 New
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    and Putin said only galoshes could do, strange ... lied?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. carstorm 11 31 May 2020 15: 46 New
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      But what did Putin really say? And he said this: "... all that we produced was nobody needed. Because no one bought our galoshes, except for the African, who needed to walk on the hot sand
      stop turning over obvious and accessible things to everyone. it's stupid
      1. Free wind 1 June 2020 11: 59 New
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        Has anyone tried to walk on the hot sand in galoshes? Legs and galoshes will fall off. The skin peels off at least and the nails fall out. And so the galoshes were very common upper shoes and the same in Europe .. Until a certain point in the development of industry. When new materials appeared. The shoes were leather. and often from expensive matter. Galoshes were worn to protect the main shoe, from external factors. Having entered the house, galoshes were removed, and they were slandering around the house already in basic shoes. Mom Lesha bought, excellent galoshes, beautiful, shiny, just like real ones.
        1. your1970 1 June 2020 16: 48 New
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          Quote: Free Wind
          Has anyone tried to walk on the hot sand in galoshes? Legs and galoshes will fall off. Skin peels off at least and nails fall out

          Aha fellow .... you tell the Central Asians, they will be extremely surprised .....
          And the Afghans, they will also be a surprise - that the legs fall off
          Well, you can also for everyone who wears ichigi - in fact, you have the very galoshes of only thin skin .....
          They all laugh at you
          1. Free wind 1 June 2020 17: 01 New
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            Of course they will laugh at me. Whoever fires, walks in the sand. In the heat, you need to sit in the shade, drink tea, smoke a hookah .. It will become cooler, you can walk. Moreover, they have either Ramadan, then Ramadan, or Kurban Bayram. In short in the heat to walk nefig, it is necessary to go on pickups, with machine guns. drinks
            1. your1970 1 June 2020 17: 17 New
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              Quote: Free Wind
              In short in the heat to walk nefig, it is necessary to go on pickups, with machine guns.
              -who ride on pickups-they stand lol
    3. sabakina 31 May 2020 15: 59 New
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      Quote: Alexey from Perm
      and Putin said only galoshes could do, strange ... lied?

      No, I didn’t lie. They did it. Now we do not. wink
    4. PilotS37 31 May 2020 18: 47 New
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      No! He - misinformed the enemy!
    5. Aag
      Aag 31 May 2020 18: 50 New
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      You know, for a long time I was a "Putinist" ... To the froth at the mouth ... (I can present my arguments). After the pension reform ... brain rupture (more important argumentation), - then, like a snowball!
      About "galoshes" - a spit in the face of everything ... and not even the whole of Soviet, but to the People who worked at that time (and very successfully, in the sense of the country's success).
      I’m not lying, I started a notebook (for myself, for opponents): + - a new “system”. I think that people who are thinking have done something similar. But, the mother of the dog! How slippery they are! To give out the achievements of the USSR (for some whom it infuriates, excuse me) for the BREAKTHROUGH. (?)
  7. Blue fox 31 May 2020 15: 36 New
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    For example, they were unlikely to find the location of bus stops in some Texas town.

    But how convenient. I parked some “Carnation” at the bus stop and count, got in a top-tied position :))
    1. PilotS37 31 May 2020 18: 48 New
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      From the language removed!
  8. Vitaly Tsymbal 31 May 2020 15: 55 New
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    Somehow, the "probable partner" began to praise us))) And how are things with the cards now? Who knows? Electronic cards are good, but for paper, the battery and battery are not needed ... I'm talking about those in the field, not in the control room. Can a rocket be sent once using an electronic map, but what about a platoon, company, battalion commander and infantry regiment ???
  9. bober1982 31 May 2020 15: 55 New
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    The American said very well about our cartographic culture.
    In some cases (if not often), distortions were deliberately introduced into topographic maps, which also indicated our high culture of secret office work.
    1. ccsr 31 May 2020 16: 23 New
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      Quote: bober1982
      The American said very well about our cartographic culture.

      Those who worked with the maps knew very well that they are excellent, even those related to Europe.
      Quote: bober1982
      which also said about our high culture of secret office work

      I found a time when the neck was quickly reduced to the General Staff maps, but this was due to the collapse of the USSR, when the neck did not make sense, because huge warehouses of topographic property remained on the territory of the former post-Soviet republics and almost immediately the NATO began to have access to them.
      1. bober1982 31 May 2020 16: 31 New
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        Quote: ccsr
        I found a time when the neck was quickly reduced to the General Staff maps, but this was due to the collapse of the USSR

        The vulture of secrecy began to be removed during the perestroika years, carefully and gradually.
        With the collapse of the Union, I agree, there was a sharp collapse, everything was declassified.
        1. ccsr 31 May 2020 16: 47 New
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          Quote: bober1982
          With the collapse of the Union, I agree, there was a sharp collapse, everything was declassified.

          I still have several of them with a signature stamp that I took as a keepsake, especially since they were much better than those published in car atlases.
          1. Doliva63 31 May 2020 18: 01 New
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            Quote: ccsr
            Quote: bober1982
            With the collapse of the Union, I agree, there was a sharp collapse, everything was declassified.

            I still have several of them with a signature stamp that I took as a keepsake, especially since they were much better than those published in car atlases.

            What could be taken in secret and not returned? recourse
            1. bober1982 31 May 2020 18: 29 New
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              These cards were no longer kept in secret, and the secrecy stamp on the card sheet itself was preserved, or it was smeared.
              1. Doliva63 31 May 2020 19: 45 New
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                Quote: bober1982
                These cards were no longer kept in secret, and the secrecy stamp on the card sheet itself was preserved, or it was smeared.

                By the way, if not in secret, then where? With me, all the cards went through it, so I’m not in the know.
                1. bober1982 31 May 2020 19: 56 New
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                  Quote: Doliva63
                  By the way, if not in secret, then where?

                  Yes, in secret, everything is correct, I forgot.
            2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 1 June 2020 09: 28 New
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              They took all who had access - at our place lay two sheets of the General Staff "Ankara" and "Paris". And the stamp is not smeared. And who brought them to me, I don’t even remember ...
            3. ccsr 1 June 2020 12: 00 New
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              Quote: Doliva63
              What could be taken in secret and not returned?

              The neck was removed from them, and they were in our card store on an unclassified record, as a consumable. So in Wünsdorf at the headquarters this was not a problem - there the cards were consumed in such a way that the storekeeper gave them to me without any consideration. When I was returning from the GSVG, I needed those — I was leaving in the Lada and a good map was required on the road. They would have to be destroyed anyway, because not everything was subject to delivery to the group warehouse of topographic maps.
              By the way bober1982 wrote everything correctly -
              These cards were no longer kept in secret, and the secrecy stamp on the card sheet itself was preserved, or it was smeared.

              We didn’t even cover up the neck - if I find it, I’ll find one and do a scan.
              1. Doliva63 1 June 2020 17: 00 New
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                "When I was returning from the GSVG, I needed those - I was leaving in the Lada and a good map was needed on the road."
                I, too, was replaced from the Group "on my own," but managed the German tour card - did not disappoint laughing
          2. Aag
            Aag 31 May 2020 19: 22 New
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            Well, do not compare civil cards with ... others.
            1st: the coordinate grid was either absent or was distorted. Objects with "some significance" are not indicated.
            And further! I want to pay tribute to our cartographer, for they did more than the "competitors" could do, possessing great technical financial capabilities ...
            However, everything, as always ...
  10. akarfoxhound 31 May 2020 15: 57 New
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    And Comrade Taburetkin was one of the first things to do - the sale of a military topographical institute with a printing house. “Why?” Said the clever creature: “We have JPS!” And these maps for the RF Ministry of Defense are now stupidly no one to print, and in the warehouses in the units "suddenly" began to organize a shortage of sheets in some areas ...
    1. Kushka 31 May 2020 16: 15 New
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      Give me my Soviet secret card
      cities and surroundings and I will not give you even a penny.
      Everything has changed beyond recognition - the wrong thing has not happened
      that stops - factories and airfields, and roads
      half on the contrary, and even there is no passage at all. At that
      the same time we’ve set up a new one, including roundabouts
      roads, roads through previously non-traveling beams
      between neighboring housing estates. About infrastructure
      generally silent, there were factories, steel malls, markets, technology parks.
      There were fields and rivers, closed cottage towns became
      with temples, towers, pools and racetracks.
      1. Valter1364 31 May 2020 19: 09 New
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        Aw, well done! Let the adversary get lost!
      2. pv1005 31 May 2020 19: 16 New
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        Quote: Kushka
        Give me my Soviet secret card
        cities and surroundings and I will not give you even a penny.
        Everything has changed beyond recognition - the wrong thing has not happened
        that stops - factories and airfields, and roads
        half on the contrary, and even there is no passage at all. At that
        the same time we’ve set up a new one, including roundabouts
        roads, roads through previously non-traveling beams
        between neighboring housing estates. About infrastructure
        generally silent, there were factories, steel malls, markets, technology parks.
        There were fields and rivers, closed cottage towns became
        with temples, towers, pools and racetracks.

        Hydrography, elevations, outstanding landmarks also changed? From the first lessons on topography, it was hammered into the head that you should always pay for the year of publication (revision) of the map and make adjustments for human activity and natural factors. No cartographic service in the world is able to make changes to cartographic products online.
        1. Aag
          Aag 31 May 2020 21: 10 New
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          Regarding the speed of making changes ... I can look at Google maps with a lag from a week to a month when I closed the roof in the garage. Apparently, we need to evaluate the number, quality of satellites in orbit ... This is not to mention the number of domestic assets officials abroad ...
          1. Wildgoose 1 June 2020 19: 14 New
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            in the year 2015, they wrote it in Google so that they would map a street in the Solntsevo-Peredelkino area, it had a different name for them. They changed a maximum of 3 days
        2. Kushka 31 May 2020 22: 31 New
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          The author of the article somehow particularly clicked on bus stops.
          Hence my comment.
          PS hydrographic objects can also be added to
          stops — some not at all, others changed
          beyond recognition.
  11. BAI
    BAI 31 May 2020 17: 46 New
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    Military maps are outdated and have not been updated for a long time. We went camping. Had access to private cards. There is a road on the map. In life, she has long been gone.
    1. Doliva63 31 May 2020 18: 00 New
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      Quote: BAI
      Military maps are outdated and have not been updated for a long time. We went camping. Had access to private cards. There is a road on the map. In life, she has long been gone.

      It's about cards at that time, then everything coincided smile
    2. pv1005 31 May 2020 19: 20 New
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      Quote: BAI
      Military maps are outdated and have not been updated for a long time. We went camping. Had access to private cards. There is a road on the map. In life, she has long been gone.

      It is not enough to have a card in hand, you still need to be able to read it. And not only what is painted but also written. yes
  12. Valter1364 31 May 2020 18: 26 New
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    Yes, then it was. What cannot be bought from the general, it was possible to buy from the ensign. It's a pity! No wonder. There was someone to take an example from. Bastard, Kozyrev himself in all traded military secrets.
    1. PilotS37 31 May 2020 18: 53 New
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      Quote: Valter1364
      What cannot be bought from the general, it was possible to buy from the ensign.

      In 1985, Comrade Captain once told us at the Military Department: "The ensign serves as long as his hands are worn."
      I still remember this phrase - such a life-affirming force in it, such a flight of thought!
  13. svp67 31 May 2020 18: 50 New
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    The author of the article, Greg Miller, believes that such cards would be invaluable if you are planning an invasion.
    And for the actions of aviation and RDGs, one would think that the maps of our territory were less informative ...
    For example, they were unlikely to find the location of bus stops in some Texas town.
    To navigate the terrain and establish their location, without any "cosmic stray", every little thing is important
    1. Aag
      Aag 31 May 2020 19: 58 New
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      Paper, apparently (IMHO) -Rulit! (Without space stray): I have a gluing, black and white, 2 by 3 meters (scale, worthy), - was ordered during the collapse, for hunting (the area of ​​firing aircraft, - polygon) According to some indicators, it’s more informative than maps, Google’s Meps satellite is more informative than maps.
      By the way, or rather, quite inappropriately, it’s amazingly informative, the maps are available in the public domain ... I look at Google’s satellite, and I see the mushrooms gathered where the grouse shot. And all this is around the traffic police (permanent deployment point) "Topol" (now Yaosov ") ... On the other hand, as it was already written here, the time factor: an example of the following, already long-standing.
      1. Aag
        Aag 31 May 2020 20: 22 New
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        We go for reconnaissance. The company group (the commander of the Strategic Missile Forces missile regiment) shows the KSPP (the commanders of the preparation and launch groups) their real deployment, launch points. Without violating the 010th Order, I dare to report on the article. And there, in the field, in the islet of the forest where Poplar was fond of hiding is not a cottage. A cast-iron fence, armed guards ... Not that even for me, it’s not a specialist in an ugly battle (with my especially privileged compatriots) ... That's when I was puzzled, (and the regiment. was in ... shock.
        1. ccsr 1 June 2020 12: 50 New
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          Quote: AAG
          Then I was puzzled, (and the regiment., Was ... shocked.

          But what did your chief of staff do if he was supposed to go for reconnaissance every month and mark all changes on the map? If you had a mess in the regiment, and you didn’t notice how the real estate was built, then you had to screw up first of all the chief of staff and regiment commander, and then through the special officers all the local authorities who did not have the right to give permission to build objects in the deployment zone Strategic Rocket Forces.
          I admit a mess in the construction battalion or in the infantry, but if this happened in the Strategic Missile Forces, then this causes me bewilderment. I wonder when your commanders were the last time at the deployment site, if you did not notice how they built fences and capital structures?
          1. Aag
            Aag 1 June 2020 18: 59 New
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            Good question. Unfortunately, I can’t, perhaps, give an answer that will allow you to sleep peacefully. Sorry ...
            According to the "badak". In particular, about the construction battalion. Yes, they called them the black hundred in our 90s, the town was built. His customs, principles ... For example, it was possible for a storekeeper soldier to buy an electric stove per liter (he didn’t use it personally such a service, for reasons of principle). But when this "team" fighting for the military rank was kicked out to the UVZ, there were 600-800 people ... There were three, four officers ... At times, there were more officers and warrant officers than soldiers ( after the surrender of the USSR). And then, in the morning ascent, one day it came to firing, the demolition spoiled, and the captain on duty on the regiment was not working with the l / s ... Several people put word for word on the officer. A through bullet, on the demobilization, through the lung, (discharged from the hospital two weeks later).
            By the frequency of visits to positions by officials, I will not answer you. For two reasons: 1) the 010th order, 2) I do not know (so as not to be tortured :-)).
            In general, then the country was changing! And I really believe that the Strategic Missile Forces at that time remained the only restraining argument from external aggression (militarily). The case I heard took place to be about 96.97 years old. This is when the pilots did not fly, we They didn’t go to combat training positions. They moved from permanent deployment points only in the daytime (which was previously allowed only in emergency cases), with fake numbers on the TPK (for photo reconnaissance of new friends) ...
            I also hoped that it was okay with us, because there is still a sea and air component. Now, reading the comments on the VO of submariners, flyers, I understand that only we could really answer something. I do not beg the military work of my comrades-in-arms! , -RVSN-cheap (relatively) and cheerful. Less than any BUT. (It was).
            Well, and also, a bitter pill (((... On the 99th (I quit) the chiefs of the headquarters of the rdn (divisions), people never went to field exits!
            ... They called: they consulted on O&O (protection, defense-a sore topic for the Strategic Missile Forces), on accommodation, feeding l / s. Bytovukha was completely forgotten.
            Well, so that was on the topic, the headquarters culture suffered greatly. How else to explain the indignation of some figures by the fact that solid gluing cards are not laid out on a plane? :-))
            1. ccsr 1 June 2020 19: 27 New
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              Quote: AAG
              .Now, reading the comments on the VO of submariners, flyers, I understand that only we could really answer something.

              I will not hide - it was on the Strategic Missile Forces and there was all hope in that troubled time, I’m telling you as a person who has seen a lot during the service. That's why I was surprised by your story about going to the deployment site. In the end, this is an organizational event for which the regiment commander is personally responsible, and this does not require large expenses. Of course, this approach surprised me - I found a time when all this was seriously organized.
              Quote: AAG
              According to the "badak". In particular, about the construction battalion. Yes, they called them the black hundred in our 90s, the town was built. My manners, principles ..

              This is familiar to me - in our country the construction battalion also built a technical zone in addition to a residential one, so I know all this. By the way, they ZIL with me drove into their own convoy, there were victims and the order of the Ministry of Defense on this occasion of the death of military servicemen.
              Quote: AAG
              In the 99th (quit), the chiefs of headquarters of the rdn (divisions) were people who had never gone to field exits!

              It was a time of troubles, I can imagine why this happened. But in any case, the Strategic Missile Forces is our last hope for peace - I say this without any pathos. That's why they should be protected like the apple of an eye - I think so.
  14. Ruby 31 May 2020 19: 19 New
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    Quote: BAI
    Military maps are outdated and have not been updated for a long time. We went camping. Had access to private cards. There is a road on the map. In life, she has long been gone.

    Maps are always updated and updated. In the Union there were 3 squadrons of cartographers on the An30 in the army, and another 3 or 4 civilians. Everyone worked for GS. Ours was responsible for the Far East and Central Asia. From March to December, everyone flew on business trips to the shooting. Now I don’t remember exactly, but in my opinion the renewal of the district once every 10-20 years was done depending on the type of terrain. If mountains, taiga or tundra is less common, developed territories are more likely. Separately, shooting cities. The hardest job is actually what is for the crew what is for the decoder. Now basically everything is going from the satellites, but as far as I know, aerial photography is still underway. As for accuracy, even on military maps, not everything was displayed. You take a picture, that fortified area, you look at the map there are written channels, the airfield is on the film, the map is a blank field.
    1. ccsr 1 June 2020 12: 56 New
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      Quote: Yakut
      You take a picture, that fortified area, you look at the map there are written channels, the airfield is on the film, the map is a blank field.

      You described everything absolutely correctly, and we can only add that we had a military school, which trained specialists of three specialties, including cartographers, topographers and surveyors, if my memory serves me right. I had to deal in the service with "lumberjacks" and "hemorrhoids" - as they called themselves in their circle from the type of specialty.
      1. Ruby 1 June 2020 15: 26 New
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        Was, maybe now there is in the Union Institute of Geodesy and Cartography in Novosibirsk in my opinion. There was a faculty for training navigators, aerial photographs. The military, in my opinion, was not specifically taught in this field. Just like a soldier. There was a training in Vyshny Volochyok where decoders were trained. But there everything was very different in comparison with cartography. In part completely taught in a new way. And the specifics of aerial reconnaissance are really very different from cartographic surveys.
        I had a demobic chord with a friend. Business trip to Karshi and training of ensign and lieutenant. Young only from the school and the school of ensigns. The chief of staff both instructed us. Train them and go home. In the team, a lieutenant of the senior type, but you are responsible for everything.
        1. ccsr 1 June 2020 17: 45 New
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          Quote: Yakut
          The military, in my opinion, was not specifically taught in this specialty.

          You are wrong - there was the Higher Military Topographical Command Red Banner Order of the Red Star School named after Army General Antonov, where they trained specialists in several military schools.
          Quote: Yakut
          And the specifics of aerial reconnaissance are really very different from cartographic surveys.

          They also had such specialists - believe me, I came across them.
          1. Ruby 1 June 2020 20: 18 New
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            Yes, I don’t argue. It’s just that in our unit there were definitely no officers specializing in cartographic aerial photography, and it seemed like they said that they didn’t teach purely on this profile. Everything is somewhere nearby, and everything has already been polished in parts. There, unlike pure intelligence, everything is different, starting from marking frames, and ending with laying out a tablet and formatting the results. I remembered for Novosibirsk because the commander was very strongly campaigning for an overdue period. Like, stay on the ensign, go to college and then return to the unit as a navigator.
            For this whole topic somehow helped me at the graduation in the military department. I got a question about methods and equipment for aerial photography. I told so much there ...... :)
            1. ccsr 2 June 2020 11: 34 New
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              Quote: Yakut
              There, unlike pure intelligence, everything is different, starting from marking frames, and ending with laying out a tablet and formatting the results.

              Since the war, the GRU included aviation intelligence regiments, where this work was at a high level. Later satellite imagery images appeared, so this area of ​​work was constantly being improved, and what you were doing was related to the Air Force, so you just could not know everything.
              Quote: Yakut
              Like, stay on the ensign, go to college and then return to the unit as a navigator.

              I saw such specialists, though they worked on the development machines.
              Quote: Yakut
              I told so much there.

              Naturally - this is a rare military specialty, not everyone knows about its existence, which is why they were surprised at your knowledge.
        2. Doliva63 1 June 2020 17: 58 New
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          I don’t know about civilian universities, but there was a Leningrad school in the Moscow region that trained geodesists, cartographers, and topographers (I don’t even know what the difference is between them) laughing ) for the army. Under Taburetkin, the school was "reformed" - it is no more. And in Vyshny Volochyok, yes, they trained fighters for the AFS — somewhere they entered into objective control, somewhere they were subordinate to the head of intelligence.
  15. Humpty 31 May 2020 19: 22 New
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    When I first worked on a real 50000th map, I was frankly shocked by the incredible accuracy, everything was read and printed. It happened the other way around with the 200000th, gross obvious errors in important surface elements on the map were visible from the window of the institution selling the cards.
  16. The comment was deleted.
  17. Nikolaich 31 May 2020 20: 14 New
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    Quote: Starover_Z
    If a person has nothing to feed his family and pay for housing, then why and for whom should he keep maps of foreign countries, for example?

    In such matters, you answer first to your conscience. And the link to the higher ones will not work here.
  18. iouris 31 May 2020 23: 54 New
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    This is the “heavy” legacy of the imperial and Soviet general staff. This "trough" was poured into the United States along with the contents with the spells "but there was no boy!"
  19. faterdom 1 June 2020 00: 09 New
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    I had to work with large gluing cards, on several dozen sheets. Here, I’ll tell you, even gluing it correctly is an art, good glue, a good cutter made of good metal, such as a boot knife, rail for hanging were appreciated. On the terrain, inaccuracies came up only in connection with the age of the maps, some sheets were still in the 40s, and during this time villages and even some towns disappeared, not to mention a separate tree or bush, or there, the channel of a stream ...
    Only in the current conditions is there another factor: the Earth’s magnetic poles accelerated drift, and the directional angle (between the magnetic pole and the true one) greatly increases right before our eyes. This is especially at high latitudes and at large distances when jamming satellites can greatly complicate navigation. I don’t know if today's sailors can navigate through the stars or with the help of the astrolabe sextant. How about the pilots?
    1. Aag
      Aag 1 June 2020 19: 41 New
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      Glue BF, or rubber. On bends did not crumble ...
      In general, there should be a vocation for this staff culture, there is a former colleague, a pedant in this matter! True, boring in life. But he couldn’t distinguish it from a printer with a pen or a gel pen, or about the same speed. we’re sitting at a meeting in some club, be sure to see a couple of mistakes from the wall posters (hanging over the years).
  20. regdan 1 June 2020 00: 26 New
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    Even Russian cartographers are far from Soviet.
  21. beeper 1 June 2020 00: 59 New
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    Quote: Blue Fox
    For example, they were unlikely to find the location of bus stops in some Texas town.

    But how convenient. I parked some “Carnation” at the bus stop and count, got in a top-tied position :))

    hi In, truly military thinking! good soldier
  22. Boris ⁣ Shaver 1 June 2020 03: 58 New
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    Interestingly, today the military topographer is armed with a Swiss watering can or Japanese juice. And if tacheometers are still half the trouble, then bourgeois GNSS receivers, which rely, inter alia, on bourgeois satellites, when they are used to create planning and altitude justification points when shooting objects of critical infrastructure, it’s generally interesting.
  23. Horn 1 June 2020 07: 32 New
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    I am proud of belonging to the glorious GUGK at the Council of Ministers of the USSR!
  24. Alex2 1 June 2020 09: 23 New
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    Who in the West could need army cards from the USSR? Especially after 1991? Yes, at that time, from the satellite, the title in pursuit could already be considered. Yes, army cards become obsolete faster than they are printed. In the distant years 77-79, it was directly related to army maps of the Kaliningrad region. Even then, I paid attention to their lag from the current moment.
    1. Doliva63 1 June 2020 18: 12 New
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      Quote: Alex2
      Who in the West could need army cards from the USSR? Especially after 1991? Yes, at that time, from the satellite, the title in pursuit could already be considered. Yes, army cards become obsolete faster than they are printed. In the distant years 77-79, it was directly related to army maps of the Kaliningrad region. Even then, I paid attention to their lag from the current moment.

      Strange, the Kaliningrad region was included in the priority areas for updating. Most likely, you came across already outdated cards then. In general, the military updated the maps after 6-15 years, depending on the region, and residential buildings - from 1 year, if sclerosis does not lie. I (while serving in the USSR Armed Forces) were completely satisfied with the cards. Despite the fact that our demand for maps was very high - the reconnaissance teams "working" on foot did not have other navigation aids.
  25. Filing 1 June 2020 13: 34 New
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    I looked through the whole chatter under this article. Most all users of cartographic material. RAVE. RAVE. RAVE. I am a map drawer for orienteering. Used to draw maps 250 markings. I can say the relief accuracy of military maps is delusional. And you probably have not heard about modern methods of drawing maps. What is lidar data? Amerikosy transmitted high-altitude digital data of scanning of the European part to ordinary users. They are much more accurate than Soviet military maps. And satellite imagery of open areas and American terrain data is the new primary basis for accurate sports maps.
    1. Boris ⁣ Shaver 1 June 2020 19: 12 New
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      Quote: FilinG
      What is lidar data?

      A lidar is only up to a thousandth scale, and even then with reference / verification by a total station, plus it depends on the nature of the territory.
      Quote: FilinG
      the relief accuracy of military cards is delusional

      I wonder how you understood this? And what specifically are "military cards"? Somehow it was possible to consider the map of Crimea (in the mountainous part), drawn by the tsar’s topographers (ink!) - even then the accuracy was at the level.
      Quote: FilinG
      Americans have transmitted high-altitude digital data to ordinary users

      We are also trying. There is a good database (including the GIS format) from the St. Petersburg Institute with the inconsistent name VSEGEI. Why doesn’t this data suit Monsieur "orienteering map drawer"?
      1. Filing 2 June 2020 14: 15 New
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        I take the relief from the American Earth scan at http://dds.cr.usgs.gov/srtm/version2_1/SRTM3/Eurasia/. The Americans have simplified terrain data for us by removing excessive detail. For its territory, three times more accurate.
        Balts lidar relief data is sold on the land management site for 10 bucks a square kilometer.
        When drawing sports cards in Europe, the performer is given not only lidar terrain data but lidar forest cover density data.
        Give a link how to get data from VSEGEI.
  26. CommanderDIVA 1 June 2020 14: 41 New
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    In my opinion, we had the only topographic train in the world, a separate military unit
  27. Wildgoose 1 June 2020 15: 15 New
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    Hello! The real case, the village of Vuoriyarvi, Murmansk region. In my opinion, July 1998. Geological parents left the kid the ornithologist (23-year-old kid) their child is 7 years old, and he told him "So that he went to the other side of the lake and waited for him there." After 1.5 hours, the ornithologist arrived, but there was no child. As a result, local hunters were looking for him, then the Ministry of Emergencies arrived, then helicopter pilots, and by the end of 2 days we were border guards. We found it 1 hour before the end of the 3-day search, alive, hunters carried it many kilometers to the village. On this day he was 8 years old))). According to the maps, our border guard (we were divided into triples and each according to his own square) opens a map on the ground, and there is the Antoniyoki river, but it really doesn’t exist at all (it has dried completely and is almost not visible), then we looked at the map, and she is 1963.
    In short, you need to invest in geodesy, geology. mapping, and then there will be fewer errors. The work of cartographers is simply tin, especially if you read Dersu Uzala.
  28. Mikhail3 1 June 2020 16: 25 New
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    I was fond of sports tourism in my youth. What the hell were our unclassified maps!) To miss ten kilometers because the "Ministry of Distortion" by a specialist painted everything like that is a common thing! But if you coordinate the march with the military registration and enlistment office, you could get a normal map, or rather, draw a plot from it. But this did not always work out, alas.
    So tourists wandered around crocuses, which were exchanged by correspondence, through tourist clubs. What a fantasy - you come to a tourist club, you say that you would like to go there or something there. You just say this to people who are in the club at this moment (the tourist clubs did not have hierarchies per se). After a couple of weeks I wandered - were you interested in the east of the Smolensk region? There are letters! Lines, descriptions, recommendations - take and go. Eh hehe ...
  29. Prisoner 1 June 2020 16: 55 New
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    The Soviet military in any field the line of a bald who surpasses!
    1. Filing 2 June 2020 15: 33 New
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      Today the train has left. You need to use the digitized card data that can be viewed on tablets and laptops, iPhones.