Military Review

Myths about the Red Army and their writers

97
Myths about the Red Army and their writers

When a Ukrainian minister gives a lecture for schoolchildren about stories Of the Great Patriotic War, calling this war “Soviet-German”, when the monuments to soldiers-liberators in the countries of Eastern Europe are demolished, when the White House names the USA and Great Britain without mentioning the USSR as congratulations on the victory over Nazi Germany - all these are links of one chain.


A force has long been identified in the world that builds a master plan to create a fake mythology about the "absence" of the role of the Soviet Union in achieving the Great Victory, to defame the courage and heroism of the Soviet soldier and the Soviet people.

Here are some examples of false myth-making:

In 1941, the Red Army fled, not wanting to fight for the Stalinist regime.

Stalin, learning about the beginning of the war, took refuge in his country house and did not discuss anything with anyone.


To all this, you can add the traditional gossip about "one rifle for three" and other fables and writings.

In the documentary “Eternal Patriotic”, prepared as part of the cycle for the 75th anniversary of the Victory, the Russian Ministry of Defense provides an opportunity to think about those who are profitable to tarnish the memory of Soviet soldiers who liberated Europe from Nazism. Numerous myths are debunked by the simple presentation of real archival documents.

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  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 16 May 2020 05: 30 New
    13
    A force has long been identified in the world that builds a master plan to create a fake mythology about the "absence" of the role of the Soviet Union in achieving the Great Victory, to defame the courage and heroism of the Soviet soldier and the Soviet people.
    In 1941, the Red Army fled, not wanting to fight for the Stalinist regime.
    Stalin, learning about the beginning of the war, took refuge in his country house and did not discuss anything with anyone.

    Yes, we have something .... Svanidze, Pozner, Gordon, etc., I will not name force, I will call scum. angry
    1. Ilya-spb
      Ilya-spb 16 May 2020 05: 40 New
      +5
      It is necessary for the composers to break off this compilation!

      I won’t be surprised if Svanidze-Posners also have houses in the USA.
    2. Million
      Million 16 May 2020 07: 59 New
      +5
      They have this innate quality, from Judah. ​​Therefore, the powers that be in the world use them to their advantage
    3. Uncle Izya
      Uncle Izya 16 May 2020 09: 14 New
      +5
      And Mark Salonin, the skirting historian, is also a scoundrel
    4. Rudkovsky
      Rudkovsky 16 May 2020 19: 08 New
      -6
      The winners write history, the USSR lost the Cold War miserably, Russia is still unable to boast of victories. So the story will be rewritten by the natural course of time, and Posner and Svanidze is not a cause, but a consequence.
      1. hhhhhhh
        hhhhhhh 17 May 2020 18: 31 New
        0
        We can win now.
        1. Rudkovsky
          Rudkovsky 18 May 2020 06: 32 New
          0
          Maybe we can, or maybe we can not, time will tell! In the meantime, the situation is just that. There was a Soviet point of view on the question of the history of WWII, but it was blown away along with the USSR. But the Russian point of view does not bother anyone, in view of the lack of political weight in Russia.
          1. hhhhhhh
            hhhhhhh 18 May 2020 08: 17 New
            +1
            The main thing is that we know our children. I am not interested in the Illinois jog.
            It is precisely because of the political weight that they run into the Russian version.
            Here is your version of who won the Soviet-Finnish war?
            1. Rudkovsky
              Rudkovsky 18 May 2020 14: 53 New
              0
              In the Soviet-Finnish, the Soviet Union defeated, for it achieved its goals.

              Well, by the way, John from Illinois fully reciprocates you and waves his flag the same way and thinks that the war was won from and to by the brave "Marins" with a little help from European aborigines. But behind John is the most powerful state and Hollywood, and behind you is Russia and Mosfilm. The forces are unequal. And in the end, all the same, not your children, so your grandchildren will also believe in the brave Marines who beat Hitler with the butts of their "guarantors".
              1. hhhhhhh
                hhhhhhh 18 May 2020 15: 30 New
                0
                Repeat that Kral, Napoleon and Hitler thought that the USSR was a colossus on clay feet and now it would fall apart, do not you?
                When confronted with a real enemy, the Hollywood marines flee from Somalia and Afghanistan. There is not enough kin and money for Victory.
                "so your grandchildren will believe the same" - our grandchildren will believe that we tell them to believe. It depends on us.
                "for I have achieved my goals." - and 10% of the territory however.
                1. Rudkovsky
                  Rudkovsky 18 May 2020 23: 09 New
                  -1
                  These are all non-essential controversies. You cannot stop the course of history and time by telling your grandchildren the so-called. "the truth." And what will you tell them? Holy, 100%, distilled truth, pure as an angel's tear? How did you know her? Yes, nowhere. All that you can tell your grandchildren is the same set of views, myths and propaganda, all the advantageous difference of which from the western version about the brave "marins" is only in your personal perception.
                  1. hhhhhhh
                    hhhhhhh 19 May 2020 08: 12 New
                    0
                    Let Soros tell your children about the SS heroes who fought against Stalin who dropped atomic bombs on Dresden.
                    Everyone makes their choice.
                    1. Rudkovsky
                      Rudkovsky 19 May 2020 09: 42 New
                      -1
                      Do you have to think that you plan to put your children in a bunker, where sunlight and Sorov propaganda will not reach them? Or will they live in the same world as mine?
                      1. hhhhhhh
                        hhhhhhh 19 May 2020 10: 42 New
                        0
                        ))) You are funny. You just need to teach children to distinguish between good and evil. The scheme is simple.
                        Capitalism is over. Do you know what will happen after him?
      2. zenion
        zenion 4 June 2020 17: 20 New
        0
        Lost the war - this means that the enemy defeated the army, entered the capital and occupied the entire territory. Losers signed surrender. This is how it was with Germany. Is this the case with the USSR? In the USSR, there was a counter-revolution of these communists themselves with the support of the plowmen in law. They could not lose the war, an anti-socialist program took place with the restoration of the feudal system. The capture of the country did not happen due to the fact that the feudal lords got powerful weapons created during the USSR. So some are angry that they did not drink Bavarian beer from a basin with a pig together. And there was a return to feudalism for the reason that tsarist Russia never entered the era of capitalism.
        1. Rudkovsky
          Rudkovsky 4 June 2020 18: 09 New
          0
          You have outdated data, this is not the 18th century or even the 20th, no one is besieging fortresses and pouring boiling oil on the heads of the invaders. Now everything is done in the silence of offices. It was in the silence of such offices that the scoop stretched out its legs upward and joined the system of the Western world at the very bottom position - a supplier of raw resources. In exchange for this, the West promised that the nouveau riche would not hit hard and would give immunity to their capital, provided they were kept in Western Fin. system. What we are actually seeing now. For the West, Russia is a responsible supplier and partner who honors every letter of every contract, and for domestic consumption they feed a story about "a besieged fortress" and "war with the West." The population believes in this performance, which is the most characteristic.
  2. svp67
    svp67 16 May 2020 05: 44 New
    10
    Myths about the Red Army and their writers
    Honestly, it’s not clear to me, but why the only photograph in the article about myths about the Red Army in that war shows a photograph with captured Red Army soldiers?
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 16 May 2020 06: 04 New
      +5
      everyone thought someone would notice or not ... the famous photo ... even it’s a shame to point out that ...
  3. Vitaly Tsymbal
    Vitaly Tsymbal 16 May 2020 07: 31 New
    12
    Myths are born when the memory of generations is "erased", no matter who is to blame - politicians or historians. Memory is primarily personal, family. But memory should be preserved in the fundamental works created by historians and based on state ideology. In any war there is heroism and cowardice, there is steadfastness and betrayal ... We can point fingers at others - they say the bastards are lying, but if you know the truth, then it is practically impossible to convince you. In 1985, a 12-volume historical collection about the events of the Second World War was published in the USSR in large circulation, in 2020 the state of the Russian Federation did not find the funds for such basic work. There is money to support bankers and the like, but not for history. Why, having money in storerooms-funds, no one thought of printing (or republishing) for the anniversary of the Victory - the history of the Second World War ???? This multivolume book would become the basis for studying the events of 1941-1945 in schools, universities, families, it would become the basis for exposing myths. In the meantime, with the tacit consent of those in power, they feed us "sensations from American gardons" ...
    1. atos_kin
      atos_kin 16 May 2020 08: 19 New
      +8
      Quote: Vitaliy Tsymbal
      Why no one thought of having money in the reserve funds to print (or reprint) the anniversary of the Victory - the history of the Second World War ???? ....

      Because the power in the country was occupied by strangers, to whom the Soviet Union was like a bone in the throat. They drain resources from it all the time and at the same time try to spit it out.
      1. zenion
        zenion 4 June 2020 17: 37 New
        0
        Some do not read historical books and do not even want to read the books of war veterans. Nevertheless, the current Russian authorities are shouting that this is the place where they are located, which means they also smashed Nazism’s face. But Mussolini had more reason to yell that it was Italian fascism in those days, because Rome was the capital of the empire and was the capital of Italy during the time of Mussolini. So he had the right to shout that it was they, Italians who had captured all of Europe, defeated all the barbarians, built roads and cities everywhere and ruled the world for half a millennium. But Mussolini did not say that. He did not stutter about his ancestors. He understood that present-day Italy has no relation to that Rome, no sideways. Present-day Italy has been created by completely different people under the direction of Garibaldi, to whom fascism is absolutely not involved, just like the current Russia is absolutely not involved in the country that Lenin and Stalin built. It was that country that was able to recapture and kill the beast in its lair, and present-day Russia is not involved in this, on any side, except to destroy the country of the victor of World War II.
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 16 May 2020 09: 26 New
      +2
      Quote: Vitaly Tsymbal
      Why no one thought of having money in the reserve funds to print (or reprint) the anniversary of the Victory - the history of the Second World War ???? This multivolume would become the basis for studying the events of 1941-1945 in schools, universities, families, it would become the basis for exposing myths.

      Yes, and release it (multi-volume), in mass circulation and at an affordable price. It would be such a blow to all of these Svanidzami, Posner, and other amnuels.
      Or, at least on a separate public site.
      1. Peter is not the first
        Peter is not the first 16 May 2020 09: 57 New
        +3
        Yes, it would be nice to reissue, but such books are not intended for a wide range of readers, but for those who are keen on history:

        http://militera.lib.ru/h/6/index.html
        For a wide range of readers, especially young ones, more journalistic articles are needed.
        And yes, on sites or in electronic form, as well as in the form of audio books, and not on paper.
    3. ccsr
      ccsr 16 May 2020 12: 52 New
      +3
      Quote: Vitaly Tsymbal
      In 1985, the USSR published a large edition of a 12-volume historical collection about the events of the Second World War; in 2020, the state of the Russian Federation did not find funds for such basic work.

      I think that in this case the issue is not money, but that after the collapse of the USSR many military documents were declassified, a careful study of which may lead some readers to see contradictions with the texts and conclusions of the authors of the twelve-volume edition. And this will spur different home-grown historians of the current spill to the next obgazhivanie of the country's leadership at that time, speculating that they distorted the history of the war.
      Well, one must take into account that the twelve-volume edition passed not only military, but also party censorship - that was the order at that time, and this also imposed some restrictions on the text of the collection. Although I believe that the release of such a publication is unlikely to harm those who know how to use historical materials, and can assess how reliably the facts are presented in a twelve-volume book. By the way, there is such an enchanting trepak Zakoretsky who publishes books with his speculations, so he already walked through a new collection about the history of the Great Patriotic War, so much so that if you read it, it turns out that now they are lying about the history of the Great Patriotic War.
      1. Siberian54
        Siberian54 16 May 2020 18: 00 New
        0
        Probably they are waiting for 2070 when the term of the treaty of the "great powers" (I'm not talking about the Russian Federation, I'm talking about the USSR) on the closure of all international (we are talking about secret articles and annexes) treaties from 32 to 39 years ends, though, as always, with deception, one of the articles of the peace treaty of the USSR-Germany all the same pulled out-zones of influence in Poland and the Baltic States ..
      2. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 17 May 2020 18: 40 New
        +1
        The history of the Great Patriotic War must be reworked, otherwise I have already come across such a remarkable fact - there is no list of ships and ships of the OSI in our theater of operations sunk and badly damaged by the Air Force and MA of the Navy. Thanks to M. Morozov, there are victories for the pilots of the mine-torpedo aviation. And according to the victories of attack aircraft, dive bombers, reconnaissance regiments and other nifiga. There is a Bogatyrev reference book. Strelbitsky on the losses of Axis ships and vessels on the "eastern front". Printed a quarter of a century ago. But it will no longer work.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 18 May 2020 11: 52 New
          +2
          Quote: Cyril G ...
          And the victories of attack aircraft, dive-bombers, reconnaissance regiments and other nifig.

          I think that now there are no enthusiasts who are ready to undertake such a large-scale study, and those who work in the IVI are most likely not interested in this, well, if someone needs to write a dissertation on the events of the Second World War, they might publish something.
          Quote: Cyril G ...
          Strelbitsky on the losses of Axis ships and vessels on the "eastern front". Printed a quarter of a century ago. But it will no longer work.

          Such as Strelbitsky units among our military historians - the truth is I personally do not know him, but he gave him links to material from one site that describes the actions of the fleet during the Eltigen landing, he thanked, because it interested him.
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 18 May 2020 13: 01 New
            +1
            Alas, it is not the knowledge of the real course of the Great Patriotic War on our theater that encourages our brave warlords to unhealthy theories and worst decisions.
            Fleet and spacecraft aviation - destroyed and seriously damaged at least 450 ships and ships, of which not less +95 goals work mine torpedo aviation.
            Submariners - sunk or disabled at least 170 ships and ships.
            Torpedo boats - sunk or disabled at least +22 ships and ships. The truth was stated to be 300.
            Coastal artillery - sunk and damaged at least +10 goals.
            Large surface ships (from destroyer and higher) - sank artillery tow and a pair of motorbots in the north ..
            The numbers of our successes are more or less adequate here.
            This is precisely what must be clearly understood. The Navy spent the money on MA, purely on a residual basis.
    4. Doctor
      Doctor 16 May 2020 15: 32 New
      +1
      Why no one thought of having money in the reserve funds to print (or reprint) the anniversary of the Victory - the history of the Second World War ????

      Tried many times. But somehow it doesn’t work out. You can’t write the truth, but everyone is tired of nonsense.
      1. Albert1988
        Albert1988 16 May 2020 23: 32 New
        0
        Quote: Arzt
        You can’t write the truth

        What does not mean? it is written and written by many ... One problem - the volume of truth is such that it fits in many hundreds, if not thousands of weighty volumes ...
      2. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 17 May 2020 18: 43 New
        +1
        They write and fine, why are you lying? The work of Morozov and others, for example, on the USSR Navy, updated by the way in the archives of the enemy, I personally personally evaluate very highly. Another question is that not all issues are addressed, yes
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 17 May 2020 20: 14 New
          0
          They write and fine, why are you lying? The work of Morozov and others, for example, on the USSR Navy, updated by the way in the archives of the enemy, I personally personally evaluate very highly. Another question is that not all issues are addressed, yes

          I also consider Morozov's work objective. But this is unlikely to fall into the official history of the Second World War. Not to mention the strategic miscalculations of the command with analysis and surnames.
          And without such analysis there will be no correct conclusions.
          1. Albert1988
            Albert1988 17 May 2020 20: 37 New
            0
            Quote: Arzt
            I also consider Morozov's work objective. But this is unlikely to fall into the official history of the Second World War. Not to mention the strategic miscalculations of the command with analysis and surnames.
            And without such analysis there will be no correct conclusions.

            Read the same Isaev - there is enough analysis ...
            And then - what is the "official history of the Second World War"?
            1. Doctor
              Doctor 17 May 2020 22: 52 New
              0
              And then - what is the "official history of the Second World War"?

              Well, for example, a publication by a team of authoritative authors under the auspices of the Ministry of Defense.
              1. Albert1988
                Albert1988 18 May 2020 12: 22 New
                0
                Quote: Arzt
                Well, for example, a publication by a team of authoritative authors under the auspices of the Ministry of Defense.

                And in order to publish in this way a completely adequate history of the Second World War, it will be necessary to publish volumes of 1000 ...
                Because if less, then inevitably there will be simplifications and distortions, even if the authors try to cover everything objectively ...
                1. Doctor
                  Doctor 18 May 2020 13: 05 New
                  0
                  And in order to publish in this way a completely adequate history of the Second World War, it will be necessary to publish volumes of 1000 ...

                  Not necessary. Just show not only white but also black. Dry, objectively, without any attacks on the individual.
                  For example, to analyze the role of Konev not only in the Berlin operation, but also in the Vyazemsky cauldron. With parsing errors.
                  And then the whole history of the Second World War is written as we had classes in general tactics:
                  "Well, it means that the blue suddenly crossed the border, we took up the defensive, fought back, and now, comrade cadet, let's analyze in detail - the commander's decision to attack."
                  1. Albert1988
                    Albert1988 18 May 2020 13: 09 New
                    0
                    Quote: Arzt
                    Not necessary. Just show not only white but also black. Dry, objectively, without any attacks on the individual. For example, to analyze the role of Konev, not only in the Berlin operation, but also in the Vyazemsky cauldron.

                    Believe it or not, this is now being actively done by academic historians! But "assaults on personalities" are a vivid example of militant amateurs who want to play around on any topic ...
                    As for "white and black", this is already a sign of bias, because reality is gray ...
                    Quote: Arzt
                    And then the whole history of the Second World War is written as we had classes in general tactics:
                    "Well, it means that the blue suddenly crossed the border, we took up the defensive, fought back, and now, comrade cadet, let's analyze in detail - the commander's decision to attack."

                    Incidentally, this is the only correct spelling of history ... For first a detailed analysis of the actions of the parties is given, and then a thorough analysis of the reasons for these actions, and far from always these are only decisions of commanders of all levels, it can also be the natural conditions of the database, etc. d.
                    1. Doctor
                      Doctor 18 May 2020 13: 14 New
                      0
                      You will not believe it, but it is now actively being done by academic historians!

                      It would be nice to read the final essay. True, it will be scary later to read the comments on the VO, like "vile liberalism has made its way into historians and denigrates our great commanders."
                      1. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 13: 32 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        It would be nice to read the final essay. True, it will be scary later to read the comments on the VO, like "vile liberalism has made its way into historians and denigrates our great commanders."

                        If you approach objectively, then there will be no blackening)). The same Konev, when he was put in command under Rzhev, where Zhukov had carefully collected the bridgehead for the offensive before, did nothing and kept the bridgehead, since he himself was not aware of the whole situation and during that time the Germans had already revealed plans for this attack. So here, rather, it’s not the commander’s miscalculations, but a logical consequence of the change of commanders ... Zhukov, then, Stalingrad went to raid ...
                      2. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 13: 41 New
                        0
                        If you approach objectively, then there will be no blackening)).

                        There is such a thing as a general feeling of war. If you tell all the horror, no one will go to the military enlistment offices in case of what.
                        For example, in the style of Shumilin "Vanka-Rotny".
                        Or more abruptly - N. Nikulin "Memories of War". He went through the whole war on the front line, ended up as a sergeant, survived by a miracle.

                        His resume:
                        “If the Germans filled our headquarters with spies, and the troops with saboteurs, if there was massive betrayal and the enemies developed a detailed plan for the collapse of our army, they would not have achieved the effect that was the result of idiocy, stupidity, irresponsibility of the authorities and helpless obedience of soldiers. I saw it in Pogost, and it turned out to be everywhere. "

                        Can this be written in official history?
                      3. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 13: 46 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        There is such a thing as a general feeling of war. If you tell all the horror, no one will go to the military enlistment offices in case of what.

                        Well, why? There is such a historian Alexander Dyukov - he does not hesitate to tell them about Nazi crimes and the horrors of war and actively collects eyewitnesses' memories directly or in records.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Or more abruptly - N. Nikulin "Memories of War". He went through the whole war on the front line, ended up as a sergeant, survived by a miracle.
                        His resume:
                        “If the Germans filled our headquarters with spies, and the troops with saboteurs, if there was massive betrayal and the enemies developed a detailed plan for the collapse of our army, they would not have achieved the effect that was the result of idiocy, stupidity, irresponsibility of the authorities and helpless obedience of soldiers. I saw it in Pogost, and it turned out to be everywhere. "

                        And this, dear, is called a narrative source - you can only trust it if "divide everything in half and then extract the square root, dividing it by ten" ...
                        Nikulin wrote like this, and someone else will write something, and someone else - in general, something of his own. People primarily wrote their impressions and sensations of what they went through. Therefore, their memories cannot be considered as objective coverage of events, otherwise you will have to give the opinions of ALL participants, which is physically impossible ...
                      4. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 13: 49 New
                        0
                        People primarily wrote their impressions and sensations of what they went through.

                        This is important. He is a WITNESS.

                        "I will give an example. An order comes from the higher spheres: to take the height. The regiment is storming it week after week, losing many people a day. Replenishments are incessantly, there is no shortage of people. But among them are swollen dystrophies from Leningrad, to whom the doctors have just attributed bed rest and enhanced nutrition for three weeks, including babies born in 1926, that is, fourteen years old who are not subject to conscription ... "Go ahead !!!", that's all.

                        Finally, some soldier or lieutenant, platoon commander, or captain, company commander (less commonly), seeing this flagrant disgrace, exclaims: “You can’t ruin people! There, on top, a concrete pillbox! And we only have a 76 mm little fluffy dog! She will not break it! ”...

                        The political instructor, SMERSH * and the tribunal are immediately involved. One of the informers, who are full in each unit, testifies: "Yes, in the presence of the soldiers he doubted our victory." Immediately fill out a ready-made form, where you just need to enter the name, and it is ready: "Shoot in front of the line!" or "Send to the penal company!", which is the same. "
                      5. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 14: 19 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        This is important. He is a WITNESS.

                        Only here is a witness and can trick and embellish! Therefore, in this case, the historian must make statements like:
                        Quote: Arzt
                        And we only have a 76 mm little fluffy dog! She will not break it! ”

                        Check - what was the weapons of this regiment, what units took part in the assault, etc.
                        statements like:
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Immediately fill out a ready-made form, where you just need to enter the name, and it is ready: "Shoot in front of the line!" or "Send to the penal company!", which is the same. "

                        The presence of such "execution / penalty" documents in the archives will be checked ... And if something is not confirmed, then the question is already to the "witness" ...

                        Here, by the way, give an example:
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Among them are babies born in 1926, that is, fourteen years old, not subject to draft in the army ... "Forward !!!", and that’s all.

                        By the way, one of the important factors of Germany's defeat was just the lack of mobilization of a wide range of ages, as in the USSR, as a result, at a certain moment the Germans found themselves with almost only such "babies" and old people against the already experienced Red Army ...
                      6. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 14: 31 New
                        0
                        By the way, one of the important factors of Germany's defeat was just the lack of mobilization of a wide range of ages, as in the USSR, as a result, at a certain moment the Germans found themselves with almost only such "babies" and old people against the already experienced Red Army ...

                        This is the difference in approaches to war.

                        According to Nikulin, ours is this:

                        In the language of the parable, the following happened: bed bugs were conceived in the house and the owner ordered the residents to burn the house and burn themselves along with the bugs. Someone will stay and rebuild everything ... Otherwise, we could not and could not.
                        I read somewhere that British intelligence has been preparing its agents for decades. They are taught in the best colleges, create athletes, intellectuals capable of all experts in their field. Then such agents complete global affairs.
                        In Asian countries, the task is given to thousands or ten thousand somehow hastily trained people in the hope that even if almost all fail and are destroyed, at least one will fulfill its mission. Neither time, nor funds for training, nor experienced teachers are here. Everything is done in a hurry - before they didn’t, they didn’t think or even did a lot, but not like that. Everything is done by gravity, by intuition, mass, number.
                        This is the second way we fought.
                        In 1942 there was no alternative. The wise Master in the Kremlin understood everything perfectly, knew and, suppressing everyone with an iron will, commanded one thing: “Attack!” And we attacked, attacked, attacked ... And the mountains of corpses near Pogosty, Nevsky Piglets, nameless heights grew, grew, grew. Thus prepared the future victory.
                      7. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 15: 43 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        This is the difference in approaches to war.

                        This is NOT a difference in approaches to the war - this is a miscalculation of the German command, which believed that it had already won, and when they began to lose they believed that these were "temporary" defeats, which is why they missed the beginning of mobilizing a wider number of ages, which is why they could not establish a system of training conscripts , which allows to train the mobilized at a fairly fast pace, which the USSR did! When the Germans found themselves in the position of the USSR in 1944-45 in 41-41, they also had mountains of corpses and retreats, and only a few well-trained and equipped units could cause serious damage to the enemy.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        According to Nikulin, ours is this:

                        This is a typical opinion of an individual, and, at the same time, rather stupid ... By all the "many letters" written below, one can understand that the person had no idea how different things were done in Asia and Europe, what was the situation and situation in the country before the war and at its various stages, where there were real command errors, and where there was simply a physical and technical impossibility to do something differently, etc.

                        But it is difficult to judge a person - he saw only what he saw and heard only what he was told by those whom he met. In this case, a person passes all through the prism of his own perception of the world, it’s like seeing a glass half full or half empty.
                        Moreover, in the USSR they really tried to cover up the mistakes of the command as much as possible, and just unfortunate moments that did not directly depend on the person or system. The most important thing is that the country has gone in 10-15 years the way that the Western countries have gone in 50 years, and barely managed to build an adequate industry and an army that could win this war by the beginning of the next world meat grinder! Some hypothetical "British" could train their mythical "agents" even for decades, even centuries - the USSR could not afford this, since it did not have these "decades" and was not located on an island ...

                        Therefore, the truth about the war is, first of all, just a titanic amount of information, not all citizens of our country have read such a volume in their entire lives! And you say - publish under the auspices of the Ministry of Defense! The Ministry of Defense will have to create its own powerful publishing house and print scientific books simply in a stream and many hundreds annually ...
                      8. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 16: 08 New
                        0
                        And you say - publish under the auspices of the Ministry of Defense! The Ministry of Defense will have to create its own powerful publishing house and print scientific books simply in a stream and many hundreds annually ...

                        Yes, do not create anything. Just declassify 80% of the information, and let people make the conclusion themselves. Or even publish already declassified.

                        Here is an example. Budapest, December 29, 1944, until the end of 4 months.
                        Our command sends to the besieged garrison of parliamentarians, captains Ilya Ostapenko and Nikolai (Miklosh) Shteimets with a proposal for surrender.
                        They volunteered (supposedly).

                        Everything is already clear, the victory is ours, the enemy is almost defeated.
                        However, before signing, they sign this document:


                        In the last sentence - the entire attitude of the country's leadership towards the soldiers and officers of that war.
                      9. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 16: 32 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Yes, do not create anything. Just declassify 80% of the information, and let people make the conclusion themselves. Or even publish already declassified.

                        I will please you - back in 2015, a massive declassification of military archives on the Second World War started! They even called it an "archival revolution" at the suggestion of the historical community))) And since then, every year they declassify large amounts of documents! Do not want to study!
                        Quote: Arzt
                        They volunteered (supposedly).

                        Believe me - if there are no volunteers, then the commander appoints parliamentarians - the army ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        However, before signing, they sign this document:

                        That's right - if volunteers volunteered. maybe you want to run across By the way, in such situations, the Germans signed exactly the same documents))) And the Germans had barrage detachments, and even worse than ours))))
                        And this document demonstrates banal insurance, and not some kind of "attitude of power", etc.
                        And believe me - such documents do not surprise anyone - everything like that has been declassified already since the 80s and examined in detail by historians)))

                        Py.My: It is really necessary to declassify the documents about the war - it is necessary to knock out the ground from under the feet of any rezuns, rezunoids and other lovers of "secret tugoments" ...
                      10. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 16: 42 New
                        -2
                        That's right - if volunteers volunteered. maybe you want to run across
                        And this document demonstrates banal insurance,

                        Exactly. That's what I'm talking about.
                        It seems quite natural for our person to go to negotiations with the enemy, despite the fact that your family will remain hostage.

                        It remains only to recall the name of those guys who take people hostage.
                      11. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 16: 50 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        It seems quite natural for our person to go to negotiations with the enemy, despite the fact that your family will remain hostage.

                        This does not seem natural to some "our man", our man, if he is adequate, perceives this as a severe military necessity. At a certain stage of the war, were there many defectors? It was. Did they harm? They did it, so I had to sign such documents ...

                        Quote: Arzt
                        It remains only to recall the name of those guys who take people hostage.

                        No hostages - there is a threat of criminal prosecution for a certain crime ... Famous "guys" were taken hostage - the Nazis were called, and for this they did not need any papers and no signatures ...
                      12. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 17: 01 New
                        -2
                        there is a threat of criminal prosecution for a certain crime ...

                        Let's do it now. We’ll plant mom and a folder for the killer of a drug addict’s son. And at the same time we will send the younger sister to the youngster.
                        Fine?
                        For comrade Dzhugashvili quite.

                        Famous "guys" were taken hostage - the Nazis were called,

                        What are the Nazis, in the same place at the bottom of the pen is attributed - Instructor of the Political Department 317 SD
                      13. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 17: 09 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Let's do it now.

                        Is there a war for survival in the country now?
                        Quote: Arzt
                        We’ll plant mom and a folder for the killer of a drug addict’s son.

                        If the son is a minor and younger than 14, then yes, they will put their parents in any normal country!
                        Quote: Arzt
                        For comrade Dzhugashvili quite.

                        I do not know what was "normal" for Comrade Dzhugashvili, I know what was normal, alas, and sometimes, alas, also, alas, necessary during that hellish war!
                        Quote: Arzt
                        What are the Nazis

                        Ordinary - they took people hostage, like Igilov’s bearded animals take them now ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        in the same place at the bottom with a pen is attributed - Instructor of the Political Department 317 SD

                        But from this I laugh - this is the position of Steinmets himself!
                        That is:
                        "Steinmetz (Steinmetz) Nikolay (Miklos) Stepanovich (Hungarian Steinmetz Miklоs)
                        He participated in the Great Patriotic War from May (August) 1944.
                        He fought on the 2nd and 4th Ukrainian fronts, served as a propagandist-agitator in the political department of the 317th Guards Rifle Division 17th Guards Rifle Corps of the 18th Army, instructor of the 7th Division of the Political Administration of the 4th Ukrainian Front.
                        Awarded the rank of captain. "
                        https://proza.ru/2018/10/21/541

                        I advise you - delve into what you say and write about! And everything will become clear to you!
                      14. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 17: 20 New
                        -2
                        served as a propagandist-agitator in the political department of the 317th Guards Rifle Division ..
                        I advise you - delve into what you say and write about! And everything will become clear to you!

                        And I am aware of this, the more indicative the situation.
                        Can you imagine, if they were even among themselves there, like spiders in a jar, then what awaited Vanka the peasant?

                        Again we give the floor to Nikulin, they just called, training, they brought soldiers from the front:

                        The soldiers from the front were quiet, closed. They tried to communicate only with each other, as if they were connected by a common secret. One fine day, the division was lined up on the parade ground in front of the barracks, and we were ordered to line up nearby. We joked, chatted, wondered what would happen. They quietly ordered and brought two without straps. Then the captain began to read the paper: the two were sentenced to death for desertion. And then, right away, we still did not have time to understand anything, the machine gunners shot both. Simply, without ceremony ... The figures twitched and froze. The doctor stated death. The bodies were buried at the edge of the parade ground, leveling and drowning the ground. In dead silence we parted. The executed, as it turned out, just left without permission in the city - to see relatives. To strengthen discipline, a demonstration execution was arranged. Everything was so simple and so scary!
                      15. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 17: 29 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        And I am aware of this

                        Judging by what you wrote - NOT in the know ....
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Can you imagine, if they were even among themselves there, like spiders in a jar, then what awaited Vanka the peasant?

                        I repeat to you again - this is an ARMY! There is a terrible war, the laws of martial law apply! Before this period, cases of defectors to the enemy’s side were recorded ... So even political instructor signed such a document! And knowing who Steinmets was, he signed it 100% voluntarily, perhaps he also straightened out the form for himself!
                        Quote: Arzt
                        The soldiers from the front were quiet, closed ... many bukaf

                        Where did it come from? What documents confirm the case? Especially infa that the soldiers "went to see their relatives"? You know that even in wartime, after this, all protocols and acts are drawn up! Only with the presence of such documents - you can consider everything described as true! Moreover, how to prove it. that they only went to see their relatives, and did not go to the well-known hot spots and took good care of them? how to prove that they did not contact the enemy's agents? So the soldiers in this case were not shot - for the commander would then be tortured to explain himself to the NKVD-shniki, the soldiers were sent to a special department for this!
                      16. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 18: 01 New
                        -1
                        Where did it come from?

                        Specifically, this is on the conscience of Sergeant Nikulin; verification will not work.

                        But if you want to see the big picture, then please.
                        Article by Colonel-General A. Muranov "Activities of the military justice authorities during the Great Patriotic War", "State and Law" magazine.
                        Chart from there. And it is officially registered.



                        By the way, do you know how many of the shot 146 Americans deserters?
                        One.
                        Edward Dolald Slovik.
                        They say that Eisenhower regretted that he had signed the death sentence to his death.
                        What to take from them, one word - the liberals ...
                      17. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 18: 54 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        They say that Eisenhower regretted that he had signed the death sentence to his death.
                        What to take from them, one word - the liberals ...

                        Namely, do you know why a significant number of sentences were handed down to Soviet soldiers? You will be surprised - for violence and other illegal actions against civilians in the occupied territory! Do you know who the record holder is in this area? That's right - the Germans, with their 7 thousand executed ... Do you know such a German private as Martin Schulz? But it’s worth it - they shot him ... for refusing to shoot peaceful Yugoslav peasants who were innocent ...
                        Do you know in which army among the allies was the largest percentage of rape of women in the occupied territory? That's right - in the American ...
                        Moreover - the infographics you have given do not make any sense without a distribution by dates and places where these sentences were given - at the front or in the rear, etc. It's like the average temperature in a hospital ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Specifically, this is on the conscience of Sergeant Nikulin; verification will not work.

                        No, it’s quite possible, if you take things up on the described part, you can find everything. But who will be looking for? That's right - historians often find that what is being described to put it mildly is exaggerated, for example, soldiers went to see their relatives, and after having gotten into a hot drink they began to actively pester women, etc.
                      18. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 19: 19 New
                        -2
                        Namely, do you know why a significant number of sentences were handed down to Soviet soldiers? You will be surprised - for violence and other illegal actions against civilians in the occupied territory!
                        Do you know in which army among the allies was the largest percentage of rape of women in the occupied territory? That's right - in the American ...

                        You are careful with percentages and such conclusions. And it turns out that we have 78 soldiers shot for violence against Germans, and the Americans have 797.

                        You will be surprised - for violence and other illegal actions against civilians in the occupied territory! Do you know who the record holder is in this area? That's right - the Germans with their 7 thousand executed ...

                        You contradict yourself. It turns out that even in the fascist army they were shot for illegal actions? But what about the direct order of the Führer to destroy all Untermensch? What did Schultz get killed for? For refusal to comply with the order of the Fuhrer.

                        Moreover - the infographics you have given do not make any sense without a distribution by dates and places where these sentences were given - at the front or in the rear, etc.

                        After SUCH absolute numbers, all these statistical perversions make no sense.
                        What will become easier for you if you find out that in the Stalingrad operation they shot more of their own than the Mujahideen in 10 years of Afghanistan?
                        The fact of 150 thousand soldiers and officers who could even be sent to the penal battalion, 2 full-blooded armies stupidly shot.
                        And at the same time 40 (FORTY !!!) British.

                        Why did the Germans go forward at all, one could just stand, they would shoot themselves.
                      19. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 19: 30 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        You are careful with percentages and such conclusions. And it turns out that we have 78 soldiers shot for violence against Germans, and the Americans have 797.

                        Can you read? Where did I write that the Americans were massively shot for violence? That was the big problem - the percentage of rape was the largest among the Amers, that was in the occupation of Germany, that in the occupation of Japan, but they did NOT punish for this ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        You contradict yourself. It turns out that even in the fascist army they were shot for illegal actions?

                        No contradiction: the Germans shot for: desertion, refusal to obey orders, for assault on officers, and sometimes even for helping the "untenders" ... But for violent action against the population, they were NOT shot ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        After SUCH absolute numbers, all these statistical perversions make no sense.

                        In this case, it makes no sense for you to delve into history at all - admit that this is not yours and that's it ... Such an absolute figure grows from two things - A) The Red Army was greatly demoralized at the beginning of the war and to suppress alarmism, mass desertion had to go to Such are the measures, B) the Red Army harshly suppressed all violence against the indigenous population of the occupied territories! In this regard, the USSR was the only one who at least somehow cared about someone else's peaceful people! Others ranged from "let the boys take a walk" with the allies to "let them kill for fun" near the axes ...
                        Therefore, it is VERY important - when they were shot and for what!
                        Quote: Arzt
                        What will become easier for you if you find out that in the Stalingrad operation they shot more of their own than the Mujahideen in 10 years of Afghanistan?

                        If these soldiers, by their actions, endangered discipline in units in critical sectors of the front, then alas - wartime ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        at least to send in a fine, 2 full-blooded armies stupidly shot.

                        And does it not occur to you that you had to shoot when it was impossible to send to the penalty unit? Or the severity of the misconduct did not allow?

                        Quote: Arzt
                        Why did the Germans go forward at all, one could stand stupidly, they would shoot themselves.

                        It began - "half of the country sat, half guarded" ...
                        My advice to you - not to disgrace - read serious historical literature, including about military justice in the USSR during the Second World War ...
                      20. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 19: 46 New
                        -1
                        the highest percentage of rape was among amers, in Germany, in Japan, Yu, but they did NOT punish for this ...

                        Maybe. But I doubt, firstly why there was violence, the Amers already had a lot of sneakers, and secondly, the military police had a much better job in terms of detectability.
                        But even so, that’s right. Kill YOUR citizen, for some German?

                        The Red Army was greatly demoralized at the beginning of the war and had to take such measures to suppress alarmism and mass desertion

                        No. This is a method of warfare, developed back in Civil, when 90% of the officers of the Reds were former RIA officers.
                        To control them in the units, Military Councils were created from revolutionaries, which were further transformed into military commissars and further into political officers.
                        For double control, detachments of the CHON were created, which later turned into special departments and SMERSH.
                        The methods of work were simple, the main punishment was shooting. All this was preserved until the Second World War, in a relaxed form and further.
                      21. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 20: 12 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        amers already had a lot of sneakers

                        But you study the question - you will understand, they raped very, very much, and the military police applied "disciplinary" punishments, after which the violence was usually repeated ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        But even so, that’s right. Kill YOUR citizen, for some German?

                        All you need to know about the liberal fascist mindset ....
                        And the question is - if "his" citizen killed a "German woman"? And if he killed "some" German child?
                        Quote: Arzt
                        No. This is a method of warfare, developed back in Civil, when 90% of the officers of the Reds were former RIA officers.
                        To control them in the units, Military Councils were created from revolutionaries, which were further transformed into military commissars and further into political officers.

                        You didn’t understand anything and mixed everything in a heap! During the Second World War, execution was frequent, but, unfortunately, often the only measure, for example, was to stop the stampede of soldiers from positions ... What did this threaten in the 41st - 42nd, I think, you understand!
                        Quote: Arzt
                        later turned into special departments and SMERSH.

                        SMERSH-Yevtsy reveal foreign agents in the ranks of their army, which, incidentally, were not small then ... Deserters and others - other bodies are engaged ...

                        Quote: Arzt
                        The methods of work were simple, the main punishment was shooting.

                        During civil lawlessness, but during the Second World War - for each person shot, a protocol was drawn up with a bunch of pieces of paper ... And at the same time, the execution was a very extreme measure when they flee in panic or when they commit outright crimes.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        in a relaxed form and further.

                        This sounds very funny - in a "softened form", let's translate - in a tough wartime situation, when everything hangs in the balance, extreme measures were taken, after the war everything returned to the usual course prescribed in military legislation ...
                      22. Doctor
                        Doctor 18 May 2020 20: 55 New
                        -1
                        All you need to know about the liberal fascist mindset ....

                        Cool You wrote me to some new party. laughing
                        Are liberal fascists something like monarchist communists?

                        And the question is - if "his" citizen killed a "German woman"?

                        We are talking about rape, not murder. For this, even in peacetime, they do not shoot. And even for their citizens.
                        Do you think Budanov needed to be shot?

                        SMERSH-Yevtsy reveal foreign agents in the ranks of their army, which, incidentally, were not small then ... Deserters and others - other bodies are engaged ...

                        What other bodies? SMERSH was created on the BASIS of the Office of special departments on April 19, 1943, that is, instead of them. With the assumption of all functions, including the search for deserters, etc.
                        Another thing is that they did not pronounce sentences and did not carry out the execution.
                        This was done by the Military Tribunals and the Special Conference of the NKVD.

                        Not the point, but the approach. They themselves destroyed 150 of their soldiers and officers. Which could have fought, even in a penal battalion.
                      23. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 18 May 2020 23: 49 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Ruto You wrote me to some new party.
                        Are liberal fascists something like monarchist communists?

                        Not you personally, but logic))) But the liberal fascists are not a party, thank God, but, alas, this is a very vast political trend - these are ordinary fascists mimicking liberals ... It seems like liberals, and everyone says correctly. but from time to time such native and overt fascism begins to shine from them ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        We are talking about rape, not murder.

                        In wartime, rape of a woman by military personnel is a sign of the decomposition of the army! If this is not stopped tightly - everything will fly downhill. You ask why the Americans did without it? Everything is simpler for them - the soldiers do not have that hatred for the enemy and his peaceful people, respectively, which was very justified in many of our people ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        SMERSH was created on the BASIS of the Office of special departments on April 19, 1943, that is, instead of them.

                        SMERSH specifically dealt with the enemy agents - their deserters, thieves and others not associated with espionage activities - they were not particularly interested. The NKVD "good" was strong everywhere ...
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Not the point, but the approach. They themselves destroyed 150 of their soldiers and officers. Which could have fought, even in a penal battalion.

                        Sometimes it is impossible to send to the penal battalion. Here's an example for you - you need to keep people in positions, a critical situation, and some soldier's nerves lost and instead he starts yelling so that everyone "runs and escapes, because we are all going to die, and you don't need to listen to these red-bellied commanders" and etc. At the same time, the morale of people is already below the plinth, because 41 is in the yard and everything is bad, and in this area it is impossible to allow the enemy to break through. You can, of course, grab the soldier and send him where he should go, but if he is armed and does not respond to commands and shouts, but runs around the trenches and yells for everyone to run, then it is easier to slap him on the spot ... Such are the cruel war times .. ...
  4. zenion
    zenion 4 June 2020 17: 52 New
    0
    Do not forget that not only Germans fought against the USSR. When Germany attacked France, convoys escaped from the war. German aircraft bombed them. Hitler found out and reprimanded Goering. You understand that I do not need empty land. We need workers in factories and fields. We need those who will pay for products and work for us, we need taxes and an addition for the army. An order was immediately issued - to immediately stop the bombing. Bomb only means through which they can escape from captivity. Bombs bombed. Hitler could and replenished the army, not only the Germans. When the factory workers were taken to the front, the French and other countries replaced them. They also recruited into the army from those places that were considered German.
  • ccsr
    ccsr 18 May 2020 12: 00 New
    +1
    Quote: Albert1988
    And then - what is the "official history of the Second World War"?

    This is when the government gives an order and finances a new version of the description of a historical event in the history of our state. This is practiced in all countries of the world.
    Quote: Albert1988

    Read the same Isaev - there is enough analysis ...

    At first I read Isaev with some interest, and then I realized that he was not a military specialist and that some of his interpretations of events cause a smile. After that, I stopped reading anything from his works, although there might be something interesting there, but I do not want to waste time. This is a certain opposite of Meltiukhov, but they have one thing in common - they are not military professionals, and this immediately affects the quality of work from the point of view of those who know the army from the inside.
    1. Albert1988
      Albert1988 18 May 2020 12: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: ccsr
      This is when the government gives an order and finances a new version of the description of a historical event in the history of our state. This is practiced in all countries of the world.

      I must say that not in all, and it is important - who dines the girl, he dances her - tomorrow the power will change and a "different" story will be published? So there is history, and there is its interpretation for the sake of the current political conjuncture ...
      Quote: ccsr
      At first I read Isaev with some interest, and then I realized that he was not a military specialist and that some of his interpretations of events cause a smile.

      He is a military historian - this is enough, he analyzes documents and on their basis produces an interpretation of events. This is precisely his sphere and in it he copes very well. Of course, any historian will have an element of subjectivity, but no one is safe from this.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 18 May 2020 12: 53 New
        +1
        Quote: Albert1988
        I must say that not in all, and it is important - who dines the girl, he dances her - tomorrow the power will change and a "different" story will be published?
        So there is history, and there is its interpretation for the sake of the current political situation ...

        All the current dances of the Western countries around the decisive role of the USSR in the defeat of fascism fully prove that they more often distort history than our Soviet historians could do. And equating Stalin with Hitler in general at the level of mental inadequacy, but they talk about it in the form of various resolutions, etc.
        Quote: Albert1988
        He is a military historian - this is enough, he analyzes documents and on their basis produces an interpretation of events.

        He only recently became one, given his place of work:
        In 2007-2010, he was a freelancer at the Institute of Military History of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation [3].
        Since October 2019, he has been a senior researcher at the Institute of Military History of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.
        1. Albert1988
          Albert1988 18 May 2020 12: 58 New
          0
          Quote: ccsr
          All the current dances of the Western countries around the decisive role of the USSR in the defeat of fascism fully prove that they more often distort history than our Soviet historians could do. And equating Stalin with Hitler in general at the level of mental inadequacy, but they talk about it in the form of various resolutions, etc.

          That is precisely why I repeat - there is history, but there are interpretations for the sake of the current political situation, which, by the way, can famously change this way ...
          Quote: ccsr
          He only recently became one, given his place of work:

          I will note that a "military historian" is primarily a competence, not a place of work! In science, it may well be that a nuclear physicist works at the Faculty of Biology - he studies the effect of various radioactive isotopes on living organisms, for example. Or a biologist can work in a medical institution - to examine samples of tissue affected by cancer, for example.
          Therefore, in order to be a military historian, it is necessary, first of all, to understand the subject and defend theses on this topic, and work in specialized institutes is already a nice bonus)))
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 18 May 2020 13: 26 New
            0
            Quote: Albert1988
            Therefore, in order to be a military historian, it is necessary, first of all, to understand the subject and defend theses on this topic,

            In the humanities, this is much easier to do than in the technical sciences - I think you will not deny it, and even more so since it was not the Soviet Higher Attestation Commission that his dissertation was held.
            Quote: Albert1988
            and work in specialized institutes is already a nice bonus)))

            And for some reason I think that this is precisely the criterion for the work and prestige of a scientist. By the way, two "historians" Sokolov and Ponasenkov recently reproached each other for plagiarism, and one even committed a criminal offense - I can imagine what a scandal would have been if they worked in IVI.
            1. Albert1988
              Albert1988 18 May 2020 13: 41 New
              0
              Quote: ccsr
              In the humanities, this is much easier to do than in the technical sciences - I think you will not deny it, and even more so since it was not the Soviet Higher Attestation Commission that his dissertation was held.

              In the humanities it is easier and the other - to understand whether the author of the work is an amateur or a serious specialist. This can be clearly seen by the use of documents in works, the analysis of various sources (in the case of military history - sources from both sides), by how many subjective judgments the author makes, etc. With this, Alexei Valerievich is all right ...
              Quote: ccsr
              And for some reason I think that this is precisely the criterion for the work and prestige of the scientist.

              This is the criterion of his merits - if he was invited to work in a serious institution. Isaev was invited based on the totality of his work, so this is a recognition in itself ...
              Quote: ccsr
              By the way, two "historians" Sokolov and Ponasenkov

              I see no reason here to use the quoted quote of the historian in relation to Alexander Sokolov - he is a historian, and without any quotation marks, moreover, one of the largest in the world by the era of Napoleon! Of course, it’s sad that such a specialist was capable of such a vile crime ... This once again proves that professional activities and personal qualities are sometimes not related to each other ...
              But Panasenkov - yes, he is a "historian", he is still a "historian", by the way, after Sokolov for obvious reasons dropped out of the profession, and everyone forgot Panasenkov - since he built his works exclusively on the hype around his artificially inflated conflict with Sokolov - because Sokolov's books came out a long time ago and are scientific works, and Panasenkov's books are just amateurish scribbles of a half-educated student ...
  • Igoresha
    Igoresha 16 May 2020 17: 56 New
    +1
    Myths are born
    You have written a lot on the case, but if the individual is not interested in the subject, does not dig in breadth and in depth, then Nowadays such a thing will be poured into his brain that will not seem enough. In the LPR, students studying in Ukraine broke the plates with the inscription VICTORY, justifying themselves by the fact that they were drunk. Two years there at the Ukrainian university studied and the result
  • sagitch
    sagitch 16 May 2020 08: 10 New
    +2
    What did the special representatives of Russia in the countries of the near abroad do all these years? Monsters were born in them, but they really didn’t see it!
    1. Russian jacket
      Russian jacket 16 May 2020 08: 43 New
      +3
      Everyone saw, but .... Pockets stuffed and lobbied the interests of the structures with which they collaborated .... Here is the result.
  • IL-64
    IL-64 16 May 2020 08: 58 New
    -4
    If the author had talked with the participants of the Moscow militia about how and what they were armed with, then his accusatory fervor would have diminished. There is a lot of lies about the Second World War, but there is also a bitter truth, which does not become a lie from the fact that she does not like it. Just what the article is about is not clear. It looks like agitation in the spirit of our zombie.
    1. Beringovsky
      Beringovsky 16 May 2020 09: 04 New
      +2
      Have you spoken to participants in the Moscow militia? Well, how many participants did you interview to make an objective assessment?
      1. IL-64
        IL-64 16 May 2020 09: 07 New
        -3
        Demagogy is the favorite tool of the cheers. Congratulations. You - a prize.
        1. Beringovsky
          Beringovsky 16 May 2020 09: 13 New
          +3
          You have demagoguery. And a lie, because it is most convenient to lie relying on "eyewitnesses". They say he lies, like an eyewitness, and people like you don't even need them. Such "eyewitness accounts" themselves are composed.
          1. IL-64
            IL-64 16 May 2020 09: 18 New
            -3
            Congratulations. You have now taken the second prize. "In the name of Dr. G." If you do not believe in something, this does not mean that it did not happen. Otherwise, you run the risk of becoming like the hero of one of the novels of Y. Herman, who said, - This is, but this cannot be.
            Yes, yes, and there were no millions of Soviet soldiers captured in 1941-1942.
            1. Beringovsky
              Beringovsky 16 May 2020 09: 44 New
              +2
              One of the methods of the demagogue is to sculpt the big picture from a special case.
              You look like Latynina, who betrayed that in the USSR half of the population was in the Gulag, and the second was guarding the first.
              It’s in your spirit, only the Oscilloscope Arrow brought it to the point of absurdity.
      2. Bobrovsky
        Bobrovsky 18 May 2020 07: 05 New
        0
        Artist Nikolai Obrynba, a member of the Moscow militia, wrote a very good book "The Fate of the Militia". He writes that they went towards the front in their own clothes, without weapons. Then they were brought up with Japanese, Polish, Austrian rifles, but without cartridges. Then along the way they brought up military clothes and everyone changed, and then our rifles and machine guns were brought up, and all the old ones were taken away. That is, until they got to the front, they already had everything. And he gives two interesting episodes. Their battalion is walking along the right side of the road to let the cars pass, and two Germans are riding towards them on two motorcycles and are laughing. We drove one company in front of them, they drive past their company, they smile and we smile too. And then a machine-gunner came out of the back row and laid these two Germans in a burst. We surrounded them and wondered why we did not shoot. And then, already on the front line, they were digging trenches and one elderly soldier wanted to get drunk. From the gardens I went out into the street, and there two Germans were drinking water at the well. They saw him and waving their hands - Ivan, come to us. He approached and the German asked to see the rifle. He filed. The German looked, then swung and hit her on the blockhouse, the butt broke off. He handed the rifle to this soldier and said - Ivan go home. They got on motorcycles and drove away, and this poor fellow came to the foreman and said - I am with them as a human being, and this is what they did and shows a broken rifle. Mark Solonin writes a lot of things, only his explanations for this are rotten. Many did not yet understand what the Germans were and why they came. People were carried away by the idea that all people are brothers and how to shoot a German proletarian in a fascist uniform. the German came ready to kill us inferior, such as bugs and cockroaches. Therefore, many surrendered to captivity, not understanding how it would end for them.
  • Uncle Izya
    Uncle Izya 16 May 2020 09: 16 New
    +4
    Germans took Sevastopol 275 and the red army of Kunisberg in 4 days, which is the assault troops in the red army as they took the city
  • Senior manager
    Senior manager 16 May 2020 10: 14 New
    0
    One rifle for three - that was. Perhaps some kind of local miscalculations. A familiar grandfather who was captured in the Vyazemsky cauldron spoke about this. I have no reason not to trust him. Sensible comrades understand that the ideal does not exist. The supply system at the first stage of the war was far from ideal, with all that it implies ... The only question is, is it worth such an emphasis on this fact?
    1. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 16 May 2020 11: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: St. Propulsion
      One rifle for three - that was. Perhaps some kind of local miscalculations. A familiar grandfather who was captured in the Vyazemsky cauldron spoke about this. I have no reason not to trust him.

      Unfortunately, I agree with you.
      But in each case it is necessary to understand. So that the mistakes of real leaders do not turn into enemy myths.

      I can also tell one of these myths.
      When in the 1960s my grandmother brought her to her country in the village of Vesyego region, I heard from her about the husband of a woman, a widow.
      Her husband was called ...
      He didn’t even have time to fight ... Further, the story is from his wife, from himself.
      They called, drove, unloaded, built and ... commanders led ...
      They stopped in the forest, built .... German machine gunners came out of the forest ... ... turned them over to the Germans.
      Then they marched in the same column under the command of the Germans ....
      Then the camp, I wanted to live, went to the Vlasov army ...
      He didn’t kill anyone ... It’s not his fault.
      Then again he was captured, already ours ... 10 years.
      My wife once went to him - and brought this story.
      ... from the camps did not return ...

      When my grandmother told me this in a whisper, everything was in full swing in me ... how could I give up ... I was a pioneer.
      And grandmother believed in this story. The wife of this bastard was a quiet, good woman who raised three children, the latter was born in 1941 and never saw his father ...

      This is how myths are born ... about good bastards and about bastard commanders.
      And the bastards themselves are always hiding behind certain mitigating and supposedly hopeless circumstances.
      Output.
      Lies about us are composed by cowards and bastards, incapable of a decent life.
      And ready for an unworthy story. So it’s easier for them.
      1. Bobrovsky
        Bobrovsky 18 May 2020 07: 13 New
        +1
        The colonel, the head of the investigation department, told. A woman turned to perestroika with a request for the rehabilitation of her father, who was shot in 1945. Raised the case. Her father was the commander of a rifle battalion. They were near the front line, but had not yet fought. In the morning, a rumble and he quickly moved towards the east. This major built them and said - hear, we have already been circumvented, so the resistance is useless and we are being captured. He led them towards the Germans and surrendered. And in 1945, pr filtration, he was arrested, tried and shot. So no rehabilitation came about. I met a couple of such cases when the commanders themselves handed over part of the Germans. There were such villains.
    2. Uncle Izya
      Uncle Izya 16 May 2020 12: 21 New
      +3
      There were Fritz aces, their field marshals from PMV from rank-and-file were to marshals, rose up the career ladder. Theoretical ideological enemy was a miracle that he was crushed
      1. Bobrovsky
        Bobrovsky 18 May 2020 07: 14 New
        0
        They were officers, not ordinary soldiers.
        1. Uncle Izya
          Uncle Izya 18 May 2020 19: 12 New
          0
          All were inferior ranks. They all started their careers, certainly not generals.
    3. Doctor
      Doctor 16 May 2020 15: 48 New
      -2
      Perhaps some kind of local miscalculations. A familiar grandfather who was captured in the Vyazemsky cauldron spoke about this. I have no reason not to trust him.

      Local miscalculations?
      Is 380 killed and 000 prisoners 680 kilometers from Moscow a local miscalculation?
      The entire Western Front fell apart.
      1. kotvov
        kotvov 18 May 2020 10: 40 New
        0
        The whole Western Front fell apart. ,,
        What are you carrying? If the front collapsed, the Germans would not have suffered such losses. There was a retreat, not always planned, but inflicting major losses on the enemy.
      2. Senior manager
        Senior manager 8 June 2020 18: 35 New
        +1
        Quote: Arzt
        The entire Western Front fell apart.

        Doctor, I just said that one rifle for three - that was.
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 8 June 2020 19: 17 New
          0
          Doctor, I just said that one rifle for three - that was.

          Sorry, I didn’t understand the point. +
    4. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 17 May 2020 18: 49 New
      0
      It was. For example, the situation with the construction battalions in the Baltic states met by the Germans during the offensive was examined, they really had rifles even less than one for three. We must really write a normal history of the Second World War using archival documents from our and foreign archives.
  • al.cozeev
    al.cozeev 16 May 2020 20: 27 New
    0
    As for one rifle for three or five rounds for three, this is unfortunately true. Too many weapons were left in warehouses in the early days of the war, when they simply did not have time to take them out. Usually such warehouses were destroyed so that the enemy would not get it, but the fact remains, the weapons were not enough.
    1. Bobrovsky
      Bobrovsky 18 May 2020 07: 15 New
      0
      By the way, it was exactly the same in 1812. And the French got a lot of weapons and food.
  • Radikal
    Radikal 16 May 2020 23: 36 New
    +1
    Quote: Vitaliy Tsymbal
    Myths are born when the memory of generations is "erased", no matter who is to blame - politicians or historians. Memory is primarily personal, family. But memory must be preserved in the fundamental works created by historians and based on state ideology. In any war there is heroism and cowardice, there is steadfastness and betrayal ... We can point fingers at others - they say the bastards are lying, but if you know the truth, then it is practically impossible to convince you. In 1985, a 12-volume historical collection about the events of the Second World War was released in the USSR in large circulation ...
    From 1973 to 1982, a collection was published - "The History of the Second World War 1939-1945" in 12 volumes, an academic subscription edition prepared by a large team of authors, which included famous Soviet military leaders, diplomats, and historians. This edition, which most fully reflects all the events of that period. sad Since then, nothing similar has been released in the country. sad
  • Misha Bushmanov
    Misha Bushmanov 17 May 2020 15: 42 New
    +1
    I am reading here. "The Great Slandered War" http://liewar.ru/
  • smirgeorg1
    smirgeorg1 17 May 2020 22: 35 New
    +1
    The distortion of the true story will continue until we verbally and in fact prove the opposite Our grandfathers and fathers were respected throughout the world .. And today their country, one of the winners, is not even mentioned in the Second World War. If our ancestors defended their homeland, then we cannot even protect their memory. A generation of wimps has grown.
  • Petrik66
    Petrik66 18 May 2020 13: 26 New
    0
    Well, so it began with Nikita Sergeevich. How can we demand that others respect ourselves if we regularly smear ourselves with shit.
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 4 June 2020 19: 29 New
    0
    "In 1941, the Red Army fled, not wanting to fight for the Stalinist regime." And the French also fled not wanting to fight for Stalin and other British ones. Polish, etc.