Military Review

"Boomerang" after the Su-57

155

It is bad to be a prophet in your own country. But alas, what has been said repeatedly before has happened.


Rosoboronexport, through the words of CEO Alexander Mikheev, spoke of the “huge export potential” of the Boomerang platform. Yes, the very one that was so impressive in parades, which is the latest, not having, superior and so on in the text.

I’m translating: by analogy with the Su-57, MiG-35, this means that the Ministry of Defense refused to buy Boomerangs for the Russian army.

Accordingly, the car went to develop any markets other than domestic. Well, really, why do we need this Boomerang if the BTR-82A does its job perfectly? Or is it not that Mount VPK gave birth to another mouse, but something else?

There are no complaints against the military-industrial complex. Judging by the articles in the media and TV reports, every year we invent something so deadly, which has no analogues in the world, is advanced and so on. Then the joyful cries subside and the usual routine sets in. That is, it turns out that several years and billions of rubles were taken in vain, no one needs this invention. And first of all, it does not need the one who ordered, that is, the Ministry of Defense.

And then the familiar song about “the presence of huge export potential” begins already painfully.

I will quote Mikheev that "the combat vehicles built on the basis of this platform are ready to take the countries of Africa, the Middle East, Southeast Asia and the CIS."

He said this about the Boomerang.

But with other products, everything is exactly the same. Take the same Su-57, which recently, in reports about the rehearsal of the May air parade, was again called "unparalleled in the world."


But here yes, it really is. Su-57 has no analogues in the world, because it is the only fifth generation fighter that no one needs and is not interested in.

Chinese Chengdu J-20 is in demand, the American F-35 is sold worldwide, but the Su-57 ... Alas.

No, of course, what Peru is thinking about acquiring 3 (THREE) Su-57s and Vietnam is considering buying ...

Huge export potential, I agree.

And if it was an isolated case ...

Not so long ago, we discussed the layouts of the MiG-35, which was ordered simply by a deafening series of 6 (SIX !!!) cars. I don't know if there were stories RSK MiG are more sensitive slap-blows, I think not. But the fact: the plane was not in demand at all and was not needed. Six copies are just for impressions to potential buyers. Well, the corresponding accompaniment in the form of a phonogram with a song about export potential.


It's a shame the car is clearly good. But ... Africa, Asia ... CIS ...

However, we will fall from heaven to earth. And on earth we have a Boomerang. Which has been on display in parades since 2015, and which was about to enter the series.

However, no.

At first, they covered themselves with the high cost of the car. Yes, this is a very serious argument, why a destroyer with the cost of an aircraft carrier, why an armored personnel carrier, which weighs like a tank in money?

The correct answer is no reason.

But last year, when a complete rejection of the entire order really loomed, the Boomerang suddenly fell in price! The general director of the manufacturing company VPK Alexander Krasovitsy made a sensational statement: there was an opportunity to reduce the cost of Boomerang by about three times.

Well this is not surprising, everyone and even the janitor Uncle Seryozha should have earned. Therefore, as it became clear from the "analytical investigation", absolutely ALL component manufacturers overestimated the cost of their products several times.

Indeed, what is the little thing? The budget will stand ...


The budget could not stand it. The Boomerang was tested, but behind the curtains, obviously, hinted that the tank on wheels was not needed in terms of cost. Need an armored personnel carrier.

As I understand it, the evil generals came to the leadership of the military-industrial complex and began to twist their hands, nodding at the "Armata", which also "has no analogues in the world" and also stands as a fighter.

And most importantly, it is also purchased in volumes that definitely do not promise profits to manufacturers. Because in the expensive business of developing and producing modern military equipment the main thing is what? That's right, serial production.

If the same MiG-35 or “Armata” drive a series not individually, but in dozens (aircraft) and hundreds (Tanks), then the cost will be ... Well, it just will be.

In general, the leadership of the military-industrial complex was hinted, the leadership understood, and the Boomerang became cheaper before our eyes. It’s logical, because if our army needs an armored personnel carrier, it’s not at the price of “Almaty”.

However, the advent of the Boomerang in the Russian army did not happen. Even despite the drop in the selling price, almost three times.

And here, too, there is logic.

Due to what it has become so cheaper, no one is talking. But actually there are few options. Either due to lower selling prices for components if they were really unscrupulously overpriced, or due to the configuration itself. That is, the installation of cheaper components and equipment.

By the way, here's a living example for you. Again, the Su-57.


The estimated price of the Su-57 was announced at 100 million dollars. The normal price on the world market for such an aircraft, and there were more abrupt deals. The French last year sold the Rafali Indians at 218 million euros apiece, and the Rafal - by no means the Su-57, even in principle.


Our Su-35s, who are Rafale’s classmates, go to China for $ 75 million each.


And suddenly last summer, the Ministry of Defense signed a long-term contract for the purchase of 76 Su-57s at $ 32 million per unit.

That is, a 5th generation fighter comes at a price two and a half times lower than a fourth generation fighter. Nonsense? Not that word.

A very strange figure of the transaction, even if one considers that “for oneself”, “in the name of the interests of the Motherland” and all the rest is absurd.

Yes, for Soviet and now Russian (because it is all from the USSR) technology, the price / quality ratio was one of the best in the world. That is, good performance characteristics and combat operational qualities were perfectly combined with a low price by world standards.

BMP? In the region of a million dollars. Armored personnel carrier? If we talk about the BTR-82A, then 563 thousand dollars, while "for myself" in terms of even cheaper will be, because about 28 million rubles.


But excuse me, the BTR-82 is the same BTR-60, just tuned. Yes, a diesel engine, yes, a tower, but in essence it’s the same BTR-60, with its bulletproof armor and the absence of mine protection. And just as fighters traveled to BTR-70 in Afghanistan, 30 years later, they go to the Donbass and Syria, because the bullet is, of course, a fool, but the mine for the BTR is a grave.




"Boomerang" promised to be stronger. However, we will talk about this separately, the topic is long and rich. Now we are interested not in theory, but in practice.

But in practice, the price of the “Boomerang”, that in the wheeled version (BTR K-16), that in the tracked (BMP K-17), will in no way be comparable with the price of the BTR-60 in the new package.

If we compare Boomerang with the main competitors in the foreign market, then there are two of them: the American Stryker and the Canadian LAV III.




But the “Boomerang” looks “thicker” here. And the armor can protect not only from 7,62 mm bullets, and engine power is pretty much more, and with weapons too.

Alas. Everything just spoils the issue of price. And the price ... The price is not like the BTR-82. And therefore, “fat” in all performance characteristics and the price of “Boomerang” may well be uninteresting to foreign buyers.

For let's honestly answer the question: who is the main consumer of Russian military equipment? Yes, all the same Africa, Asia, CIS. That is, far from the richest countries that are interested in the fact that "no worse", but cheaper. Clear that this is not news, just from the category of not very pleasant information. Yes, Russia is mainly arming the countries of the Third World, and of the second, if it is possible to sell something to the same Indians and Chinese.

But basically - the third. Money which did not have, is not and will not be. And therefore cheaper, on credit, and even then it is advisable to forgive this loan.

So it is very doubtful that third-country countries would be interested in a product such as Boomerang. They pay less for tanks.

An advanced combat vehicle is affordable only for the respective armies of the respective countries.

And here a simply overwhelming question arises: why is this all?


Why do hundreds of people work on new tanks, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, airplanes, if the fate of all developments is the same: to get the status of "has great export potential," and that's it? And then the fate of the development will not be decided in Russia, but in Zimbabwe, Angola, Myanmar and other no less developed countries?

Why do we need all the design bureaus, laboratories, factories, in the end? Why spend millions of rubles if they will use the fruits of labor anywhere but in Russia?

Oh yes ... Profit for Rosoboronexport ... Of course, in this case, the interests of national security can be neglected. We are not going to fight with anyone, what is at the disposal of our armed forces is more than enough for protection, so ...

So all these “possessions of high export potential” do not look very good. Especially in light of the fact that the list of the latest developments that did not go into our army, but is considered as a replenishment of the budget and is offered to everyone who can pay ...

Not very beautiful layout.

Interestingly, the "Poseidons" and "Vanguards" also go on sale? If the price turns out to be prohibitive? Because, on the whole, the Boomerang flying after the Su-57, of course, will not hit the plane, but ... But it will not help our security either.

And I remind you that the money spent on development, testing, production, etc. was abundant. This is what saddens the most. After all, buyers from Africa may not pay the costs ...
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  1. Grandfather
    Grandfather 6 May 2020 06: 15 New
    +8
    not, well, they make all kinds of outfits for carnival parades? here and
    we produce equipment for parades! only expensive ...
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 6 May 2020 07: 13 New
      26
      The article reveals an unpleasant reality. There are developments, but this is not in the troops. And also trying to answer the painful question - why breakthrough news is not in demand by the army.

      Not everyone is ready to accept reality exactly as it is. This is especially true of our cheers patriots. Therefore, now they will begin to become attached to the details and loudly resent. To dispute nonetheless chief the promise of the article will be impossible.
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 6 May 2020 07: 53 New
        20
        The general director of the manufacturing company VPK Alexander Krasovitsy made a sensational statement: there was an opportunity to reduce the cost of Boomerang by about three times.

        I honestly prigel .. at first I thought a typo, maybe 30%, but three times! It is not surprising, with such margins and greed and lack of control, why the troops do not have the latest technology .. and soon there will be no third countries .. By the way, have we equalized the possibilities with third countries in the procurement of military equipment? Someone is actively undermining our defense industry. Perhaps the last thing that at least somehow works since the days of the USSR.
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 6 May 2020 08: 09 New
          21
          Quote: Svarog
          but three times!

          Someone is worried about the country's defense capability, while someone is stuffing their pockets on this.

          And who is it? Yes, everyone who can reach a penny can, from the general to the manufacturer. Such a time. In troubled times, this is always the case until the vicious system collapses.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 6 May 2020 12: 04 New
            11
            Quote: Stas157
            And who is it? Yes, everyone who can reach a penny can, from the general to the manufacturer. Such a time. In troubled times, this is always the case until the vicious system collapses.

            What does troubled times have to do with it? Overpricing by industry has always been. SW M. Svirin wrote that Comrade Salzman initially determined the cost of the first HF at one million rubles per tank. ABTU and NPO were taken aback by such prices and strongly recommended to recount them. After the first recount, the price dropped to 800 thousand, after the second - to 600 thousand. smile
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 6 May 2020 12: 36 New
              12
              What straight three times overpriced ??

              Quote: Alexey RA
              Overpricing by industry has always been. SW M.Svirin wrote

              You here do not confuse personal wool with state. If now all the profit goes into the pocket of the owner, then in the USSR - to the state! And these, as they say in Odessa, are two big differences.

              Quote: Alexey RA
              What does troubled times have to do with it?

              I will not argue about this. For some, even under Yeltsin, it was free!
            2. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 6 May 2020 14: 20 New
              19
              Well, at the time of the production of HF, Comrade Salzman could well have gone to cut down the wood, or not to go further than the walls, so he counted the price so quickly.
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 6 May 2020 17: 38 New
                +1
                Quote: Aviator_
                Well, at the time of the production of HF, Comrade Salzman could well have gone to cut down the wood, or not to go further than the walls, so he counted the price so quickly.

                I beg you ... Comrade Salzman was unsinkable. Even the Mehlis commission did not succeed in overthrowing it: despite the facts of surrender of the army of sky-ready tanks and a crude falsification of reporting, which had been revealed at the LKZ, Zaltsman continued to direct, and later, during the war, he moved to the people's commissar’s chair.
                1. Aviator_
                  Aviator_ 6 May 2020 18: 01 New
                  +5
                  This mystery is great, even if he resisted Mehlis. Mehlis, in response to the complaints of his fellow tribesmen, why he recommends so many of them for removal from their posts, answered - I am first of all a communist, and secondly - a Jew. Well, what about - "We have no Hindenburgs" (Joseph Vissarionovich)? Or maybe he knew how to reduce the price very quickly?
            3. telobezumnoe
              telobezumnoe 6 May 2020 19: 19 New
              +2
              development goes to the money of the russian federation, they are also copyright holders .. and fully know how many man-guns are needed. there now they tightened the screws so that inappropriate spending in principle is not possible, even the target still needs to be justified. boomerang and so on did not take off due to sanctions. armor, electronics, thermal imagers and so on are all bourgeois, but on our analogs it has ceased to meet the requirements of the technical requirements .. to say nothing, even Michelin tires. here, on our component parts, he got better so that at best he can only swim empty .. here it’s more my fault. It’s profitable for everyone to skip more dough through themselves and no one thinks about optimization, and the main contribution to the price is manual work, even a wire in insulation is wound manually. the packaging that was developed even under Grandfather Stalin, it is prescribed in the design documentation to use all sorts of felt and so on, which in the modern world only increases the cost of some little things created manually, but no one wants to change it, it works like that, and people involved in these handicraft industries no one will overclock .. but in the end, and the price of space
            4. Alf
              Alf 6 May 2020 19: 33 New
              +6
              Quote: Alexey RA
              After the first recount, the price dropped to 800 thousand, after the second - to 600 thousand.

              And if Lavrenty Palych had been invited to recount, then the price would have decreased even more. laughing
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 6 May 2020 19: 49 New
                0
                Quote: Alf

                And if Lavrenty Palych had been invited to recount, then the price would have decreased even more.

                It is unlikely - Isaak Moiseevich even the all-powerful 1st People's Commissar of State Control of the USSR (former deputy people's commissar of defense and head of the Main Political Administration of the Red Army) could not do anything. And Lev Zakharovich was distinguished by a sharp temper - the commander of the 44th SD Vinogradov and the commander of the artillery of the 34th army Goncharov was an example of this.
                1. Alf
                  Alf 6 May 2020 19: 52 New
                  +5
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Quote: Alf

                  And if Lavrenty Palych had been invited to recount, then the price would have decreased even more.

                  It is unlikely - Isaak Moiseevich even the all-powerful 1st People's Commissar of State Control of the USSR (former deputy people's commissar of defense and head of the Main Political Administration of the Red Army) could not do anything. And Lev Zakharovich was distinguished by a sharp temper - the commander of the 44th SD Vinogradov and the commander of the artillery of the 34th army Goncharov was an example of this.

                  Why argue with the obvious ..
        2. Starover_Z
          Starover_Z 6 May 2020 08: 50 New
          +7
          Quote: Svarog
          Not surprisingly, with such margins and greed and lack of control, why the troops do not have the latest technology ..

          It's a shame that our men
          In general, the leadership of the military-industrial complex was hinted, the leadership understood, and the Boomerang became cheaper before our eyes.

          For our army, there is no modern, latest technology ...
        3. lucul
          lucul 6 May 2020 10: 41 New
          16
          I honestly prigel .. at first I thought a typo, maybe 30%, but three times! Not surprisingly, with such margins and greed and lack of control, why the troops do not have the latest technology ..

          And so it is, not for that since the Brezhnev era, the military-industrial complex has been driven at a loss, but in order to make them private, or at least a joint stock company, and so that it is possible to increase prices, but to remove the margin, the state will buy it anyway ....
          I remind you, for those who are not in the know, the famous MiG-21 fighter cost exactly the same as the inexpensive BMP-1. And not $ 100 million, like the Su-57. It is necessary to cut off usurious paws from the military-industrial complex .....
          1. Souchastnik
            Souchastnik 7 May 2020 20: 49 New
            +3
            It is necessary to cut off usurious paws from the military-industrial complex .....

            Yes, someone will give you. Directors of Rostec are worse than millers and sectarians? They also want to earn about lyama per minute. Why are they worse?
            But seriously, until they put things in order with the salaries of managers from the state, general directors, other chiefs, who are included in the cost of military equipment, we will have a whistle with prices. But in fact - it seems like NEVER
        4. d4rkmesa
          d4rkmesa 6 May 2020 16: 21 New
          +4
          And where does greed and margins come in. It was about mass production and the high cost of components. Those most beautiful steering wheels, LCD screens and mine-action chairs. The director literally said that due to the cheaper filling, the cost would decrease. Perhaps they will install a cheaper and simpler combat module. There are not so many reasons for joy. I personally do not like Boomerang, but for lack of a better one ...
        5. Tavrik
          Tavrik 6 May 2020 21: 09 New
          0
          And where did the military representatives look when the price was forming?
        6. spectr
          spectr 7 May 2020 10: 42 New
          +2
          Only nowhere is it said at the expense of what. I know of one such product where MO has managed to cut the price in half. As a result, the salaries of the workers of the plant dropped 2.5 times and some of them were fired. Plus, for all the urges to bring the product to mind, one and the same answer is heard: "The product has passed military acceptance and we don't need additional hemorrhoids with it for that kind of money."
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. knn54
        knn54 6 May 2020 09: 10 New
        +3
        I want to add
        The development of "Armata" / Boomerang / ... began due to the reluctance of the Russian military to purchase modernized Soviet vehicles, which were considered morally obsolete. Today, "RESPONSIBLE uncles" call the practice of modernizing Soviet tanks "an effective solution" "which helps Russia to oppose NATO on equal terms.
        I understand that the military budget of the Russian Federation is less than that of South Korea and the Netherlands.
        But the money is slowly going abroad. Even on the VO such information slipped repeatedly.
        "All the best for children ... overseas."
        For some reason, the authors do not delve into pricing. A quarter of a century ago, I was faced with the repair of two pieces of equipment. In the estimate before "TOTAL", everything counted was multiplied by 2. That is, they added 100%.
        In response, accounting terms, links to a bunch of some kind of regulatory documents.
        And this is at the state enterprise.
        I think that even today the price can be safely divided into two.
        The fact is that a bunch of intermediaries are also fed, which, if desired, can be cut off.
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 6 May 2020 10: 37 New
          +3
          Quote: knn54
          I understand that the military budget of the Russian Federation is less than that of South Korea and the Netherlands.

          You do not know what the military budget of the Russian Federation or just carry nonsense?
          Quote: knn54
          The fact is that a bunch of intermediaries are also fed, which, if desired, can be cut off.

          Do not tell me which intermediaries can be in the production of the T-14 or Su-57?
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 6 May 2020 12: 15 New
          12
          Quote: knn54
          The development of "Almaty" / Boomerang / ... began because of the reluctance of the Russian military to buy modernized Soviet cars, which they considered morally obsolete.

          The development of the "Armata" went in parallel with the purchase of modernized Soviet T-90 vehicles and the subsequent modernization of Soviet T-72B vehicles.
          The Defense Ministry's refusal to purchase the T-90 was caused not by mythical "obsolescence", but by the fact that UVZ constantly raised prices for the tank, the last time raising them by as much as 70%. After that, the commander-in-chief of the SV in the hearts threw that it was cheaper to buy "Leopards".
        3. Souchastnik
          Souchastnik 7 May 2020 20: 56 New
          0
          Now about the same thing: the RFP fund (depending on hh), materials, taxes. And the overhead is 150%. There is a special technique for calculating.
      4. Andrei Nikolaevich
        Andrei Nikolaevich 6 May 2020 12: 38 New
        +5
        "There are developments,"
        Personally, I have no doubts about our engineers. It is quite possible that there are other "developments". But the budget is not rubber. There is not enough money for everything. Therefore, you need to select - the best and only what will be in demand only in OUR Army. And for export, here it is, who has enough wallet for what ...
        1. telobezumnoe
          telobezumnoe 6 May 2020 19: 29 New
          +5
          no one is currently developing anything at his own expense, now they’ll pay for R&D, then they will start thinking, then form, and since now the managers have effective managers, they’ll slightly improve their capabilities in order to master the budget, at least in the delivery lines and so at every stage of all components
          1. Andrei Nikolaevich
            Andrei Nikolaevich 7 May 2020 06: 42 New
            0
            I agree with you. I am certainly not a professional in this industry. But in any case, each of the participants in these processes, from the engineer to the ordering officer, must bear personal responsibility for their actions. But even in this case, one cannot be completely immune from mistakes. In my opinion, armament is a proposal-implementation-execution and before ordering. It's impossible to be perfect here. Time, practical application and chance will put everything in its place. Nothing is perfect in nature, no. And even more so, in the development of new types of weapons, that is, in a dispute between an engineer - a customer - a buyer. Moreover, these "effective managers" are a dime a dozen ....... (((
      5. ProkletyiPirat
        ProkletyiPirat 6 May 2020 13: 03 New
        -2
        Quote: Stas157
        The article reveals an unpleasant reality. There are developments, but this is not in the troops.

        Just su-57 \ armata \ kurganets \ boomerang is initially our PR defense projects aimed at foreign markets (including the post of the USSR) and developed and advertised with the money of the Russian Federation. There is nothing bad and shameful in this, they simply repeated the foreign experience. Plus, with the advent of Shoigu, there is an enhanced PR in the * .ru propaganda zone.
        As for our Defense Ministry, it is just more profitable to modernize, and use the saved money to patch up problem holes, which is being successfully done. The problem is that most of these "holes" are unsuitable for PR, well, who is interested in arms or combat computers with batch synchronous / asynchronous communication? it is interesting only for narrow specialists, not for laymen ...
      6. Blondy
        Blondy 6 May 2020 15: 23 New
        +1
        And the main message, it is systematic: "either socialism or capitalism" - and there is nothing to be indignant in vain.
      7. DenZ
        DenZ 7 May 2020 10: 31 New
        +2
        Quote: Stas157
        And also trying to answer the painful question - why breakthrough news is not in demand by the army.

        I think that the development army may be in demand, but there is no money for this equipment and the reason for this is a completely different question directly to the army as such, perhaps not having it.
      8. Interlocutor
        Interlocutor 7 May 2020 14: 50 New
        +1
        The troops are time-tested equipment. Massively, they are not imposing new equipment in any country in the world. In order for this tank platform to become a workhorse, it must be run around from all sides. and possibly not yet sending troops - to upgrade (to complete equally). And so it is for everyone. Well, talkers among the authorities, were, are, and will be. (because people are conceited).
      9. serezhasoldatow
        serezhasoldatow 8 May 2020 11: 25 New
        0
        ... why breakthrough novelties are not in demand by the army ... Because there are no normal customers in the RF Ministry of Defense. Previously, each type of troops had their customers who knew what the troops needed. Now "there" is a VP management, in which ...
      10. cmax
        cmax 8 May 2020 14: 27 New
        0
        Source (Anna-news) State tests of the Bumerang BTR

        The general director of the manufacturer’s company spoke about the work on creating improved armored personnel carriers and the period of state testing of new vehicles. 


        At the Arzamas machine-building plant located in the Nizhny Novgorod region, it is part of the military-industrial complex, a batch of Boomerang armored personnel carriers is being assembled, intended for passing state tests. Completion of tests of an improved version of the armored personnel carrier is planned for next year. Alexander Krasovitsky, General Director of the Military Industrial Company, spoke about this in his interview to the Russian news agency RIA Novosti.
         
        “Now, at the production facilities of VPK, new Boomerang prototypes are being assembled for state tests, which are planned to be completed next year,” said Alexander Krasovitsky.
         
        The general director of the Military-Industrial Company also said that enterprises are preparing for serial production of new armored personnel carriers. This will make it possible to produce Boomerang in any volumes ordered by the Russian Ministry of Defense, after completion of state testing of the platform.
         
        Earlier, we reported on the completion of preliminary tests of the promising wheeled platform "Boomerang".
         
        Based on the results of these tests, an improved version of the armored personnel carrier was created. New "Boomerangs" will receive an expanded body, as well as increased armor protection with additional attachments. The expansion of the hull will increase the displacement and improve the buoyancy of the vehicles, as well as allow the landing party to be placed inside more comfortably and leave the armored vehicle with greater speed.
         
        Boomerang is a unified wheeled platform developed by the Military-Industrial Company. On the basis of the platform, a wheeled infantry fighting vehicle K-17 was created, first shown to the public in 2015 at the Victory Parade, as well as an armored personnel carrier K-16. In the basic version, the K-17 BMP is equipped with the Epoch combat module with a 30-mm automatic gun with a coaxial 7,62 mm machine gun and the Kornet anti-tank missile system. The K-16 armored personnel carrier is equipped with a combat module with a 12,7 mm machine gun.
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    2. Svarog
      Svarog 6 May 2020 07: 55 New
      +7
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      This alone translates the article into the category of malicious nonsense.

      Why nonsense? Do you know about orders for SU 57? Tell me
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 6 May 2020 08: 02 New
        +2
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        the only fifth generation fighter that no one needs and is not interested in.
        What, and the Russian Aerospace Forces are not needed?
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 6 May 2020 08: 04 New
          +4
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          What, and the Russian Aerospace Forces are not needed?

          There was talk about export potential. And they will sell us, of course, because the "three ends" markup how much they can "earn" on this ..
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 6 May 2020 08: 30 New
            +2
            I translate: by analogy with the Su-57, MiG-35, this means that the Ministry of Defense
            refused to purchase
            "Boomerangs" for the Russian army.
            It's about that.
      2. Ded_Mazay
        Ded_Mazay 6 May 2020 09: 16 New
        +1
        Because.
        Pay attention to the reasoning. Especially in the place in which the "supplies" of the F-35 to the countries participating in the project for its development are issued as "sales", and it is clearly implied that in the world arms market, I quote: "The American F-35 is sold around the world, but the Su- 57 ... ".
        Although this is obviously not the case.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  3. carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 6 May 2020 06: 18 New
    20
    Roman, you surprise me ... su 57 order from MO is. 70 with something units. Boomerang in trials and no one ever said that he would not go into the army. your example is too far-fetched for no apparent reason ... all the equipment that is being developed is always tried on for export. for one simple reason, factories need to work regardless of whether there is an order from MO or not. if the capacity is 500 per year and the MO will order 200 plants to work at half strength? another conclusion from the blah blah blah series. a finger into the sky ... MIG 35 is knocked out of the examples in general on all counts. this is a modernized car and not like the same boomerang or su 57 completely new. conceptually with.
    1. codetalker
      codetalker 6 May 2020 07: 00 New
      16
      Fashionable, but not at all a new tendency to shout "everything is lost" on any news.
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    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 6 May 2020 07: 08 New
      10
      Quote: carstorm 11
      Roman, you surprise me ... su 57 order from MO is. 70 with something units.

      And suddenly last summer, the Ministry of Defense signed a long-term contract for the purchase of 76 Su-57s at $ 32 million per unit.

      That is, a 5th generation fighter comes at a price two and a half times lower than a fourth generation fighter.

      The price is really interesting.
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 6 May 2020 07: 15 New
        17
        export prices and domestic are two different things. more competently everything was painted a long time ago right there a year ago by Andrei from Chelyabinsk. read. ut everything is very simple. The export price of the Su-35 may well reach $ 100 million. But you need to understand that the export contract includes a lot of things that, when delivered to our VKS and the US Air Force, go through other items. That is, there will be service, and pilot training, and ammunition, and maybe something else. And the most important thing.

        The price for our aircraft for VKS determines the cost of these aircraft. That is how pricing occurs - the manufacturer agrees with the military representatives the amount of the cost of producing a batch of “products” in quantity, according to the contract, and then winds up the rate of profit laid down by law.

        But the price of our aircraft on the foreign market is determined by the demand and supply of military equipment. And if the ratio "price / quality" Su-35 is such that it may well be bought for 80-100 million dollars, then why should we sell it cheaper?
    3. 210ox
      210ox 6 May 2020 07: 11 New
      +2
      Personally, I’m worried about something else. There are a lot of developments, but they are not unified, and therefore expensive in production. And not only that. Let us recall that during the war the Soviet Union produced a small assortment of weapons, but in large quantities and inexpensively.
      1. Interlocutor
        Interlocutor 7 May 2020 14: 54 New
        -2
        Now is not a war. Now the stage of development of technology. Now is the time of everything heavy and expensive, easy and even more expensive. But the most important thing is the development of technology. If there is a war, it will be fast, fulfilled, massive, and cheap, because they will do it not for money but for food.
        1. Alf
          Alf 7 May 2020 18: 29 New
          +5
          Quote: Interlocutor
          If there is a war, it will be fast, fulfilled, massive, and cheap, because they will do it not for money but for food.

          In modern warfare, there will be no TIME TO DO, it will only have to be in time to open hangars and warehouses and carry out, take out and roll out.
    4. Alekseev
      Alekseev 6 May 2020 07: 46 New
      +8
      What is the problem from the article?
      New models of technology do not match?
      There is no means for their mass production?
      Means, in general, are, but, at the present time, there are no urgent tasks for which Armata and Boomerangs are necessary?
      Most likely, both this and that takes place.
      Perhaps export will help, due to which it is possible to produce new samples for the RA.
      1. NEOZ
        NEOZ 6 May 2020 09: 56 New
        +5
        Quote: Alekseev
        What is the problem from the article?

        everything is quite clear - a change of power is needed (and under what sauce it is served, it does not matter).
        Quote: Alekseev
        New models of technology do not match?

        Yes, it's just sauce.
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 6 May 2020 10: 54 New
          +6
          Quote: NEOZ
          everything is quite clear - a change of power is needed (and under what sauce it is served, it does not matter).

          At the same time, they cling to any news and always try to give it out in a negative light.
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    7. Alf
      Alf 6 May 2020 19: 44 New
      +7
      Quote: carstorm 11
      all equipment that is being developed is always tried on for export.

      It’s just hard to sell to a foreign customer what the foreign customer says with all reason — you’ll accept it for your arsenal, but equip your troops, then we’ll talk about procurement.
      1. Grigory_78
        Grigory_78 7 May 2020 05: 12 New
        +4
        Quote: Alf
        It’s just hard to sell to a foreign customer what the foreign customer says with all reason — you’ll accept it for your arsenal, but equip your troops, then we’ll talk about procurement.

        I completely agree. This moment with effective ManaCherami is completely ignored over and over again with perseverance worthy of a better application. The weapons that someone has already bought are selling well. If nobody buys, then advertising statements can cause polite interest in the best case, ridicule in the worst case. For successful sales of weapons, you need a base customer.
        Although some types of weapons appeared in the RA only after they were acquired by foreign customers and recognized as effective according to the results of operation. After that, the RF Ministry of Defense depicted wild surprise and began to purchase the aforementioned weapons for its own army, although sometimes in homeopathic quantities. Examples include the T-90, Su-30, Shell-C1. But this is still an exception to the rule, whatever one may say.
        1. Alf
          Alf 7 May 2020 18: 26 New
          +2
          Quote: Gregory_78
          I totally agree.

          The only option to sell anything there without buying here is to declare that the item was created only for export, such as Northrop F-5 Tiger. The car was officially created only for export, and only after it worked well over Vietnam, the US Department of Defense decided to order them for US AIR FORCE.
  4. avia12005
    avia12005 6 May 2020 06: 20 New
    -1
    For our "menagers" in the defense industry, the main and main criterion for their activities is not strengthening the country's defense capability, but the development of budgetary funds, first of all, to increase their personal wealth. Therefore, they are interested in the effectiveness of the created technology and its compliance with the requirements of the time and the future, just as Australian rabbits are interested in the living conditions of polar bears.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 6 May 2020 06: 46 New
      +2
      it hasn't been working like this for a long time. to get funds in the defense industry now you need to comply with a bunch of criteria. long time no longer give money just like that. therefore, all loans and gain.
      1. avia12005
        avia12005 6 May 2020 11: 19 New
        +3
        God grant that so. But where is the equipment for the RF Armed Forces?
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 6 May 2020 12: 21 New
          +3
          What serial is it specifically?) If you are talking about new products, then many gos have not yet passed. as well as serial darkness)
          1. avia12005
            avia12005 6 May 2020 16: 43 New
            +3
            I'm talking about basic samples. Su-57, "Armata", etc., power plants for ships.
  5. Dmitry from Voronezh
    Dmitry from Voronezh 6 May 2020 06: 45 New
    +7
    In general, of course, "Boomerang" is needed. It is needed simply because it is necessary to protect people's lives. But here you need to think hard and count a lot: the Su-57 is needed, the Armata is needed, the Coalition is needed, new ships are needed and submarines are needed, but it will not be possible to buy everything and everywhere. We'll have to prioritize.
    I disagree about Rafal - this is a very serious machine with stealth technologies and very high-quality avionics. Maybe not a match for the Su-57, but who knows ... All the same, it was not in vain that he took aim at the Raptor exercises. It should be borne in mind that the Rafale is in the series, while the Su-57 is not yet. This is also an indicator.
    1. kpd
      kpd 6 May 2020 07: 57 New
      +4
      Rafal: the first flight on July 4, 1986, the beginning of operation May 18, 2001
      Su-57: the first flight on January 29, 2010, the beginning of operation ...
      Fifteen years have passed since, as in the case of Rafal, you can wait a bit.
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    1. DEDPIHTO
      DEDPIHTO 6 May 2020 07: 10 New
      +6
      So she’s a stormworm, she loves the brave. wink And with you with this affair it’s clearly not that. Begin already objectively and with proof to expose why, in vain, the tongue of the deck rosin your sane our. laughing
      1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
        Sidor Amenpodestovich 6 May 2020 07: 54 New
        -8
        When teens are noisily sorting out relationships, or tipsy grandmothers are swearing at each other, are you in a hurry to join the discussion? In any case, gangbangs like this one are definitely not mine.
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              1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
                Sidor Amenpodestovich 6 May 2020 09: 16 New
                +7
                There are people with different views and beliefs.

                Seriously?
                That is, if someone writes, for example, that he does not consider the current Russian government to be so anti-people and thieves, he will not be instantly and mercilessly branded as a sneak putinoid on a salary, and they will start a dialogue with him in a respectful tone?
                Or, in your opinion, the difference in views and beliefs consists in varying the degree of hatred and the sophistication of insulting insults at objectionable politicians and media personalities?
                1. DEDPIHTO
                  DEDPIHTO 6 May 2020 09: 49 New
                  +1
                  You are now trying to jump on particulars, that is, on a discussion between various representatives of society. But you drove into society, posing as a kind of wise guy without saying a single word on the subject matter. And the society that debated on the topic was compared to a gangbang. Why put a shadow on the fence, if the broom is not attached to the brain - what is said is said, the next time you think first, so as not to resemble a, not very sane person, (c) For this Adyu!
                  1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
                    Sidor Amenpodestovich 6 May 2020 10: 20 New
                    0
                    Rather, au revoir, heh! You are not going to self-destruct? From the website.
      2. NEOZ
        NEOZ 6 May 2020 10: 14 New
        +1
        Quote: DEPHIHTO
        Begin to expose objectively and with proof

        I do not see the point in writing the whole article. how many examples of manipulation show you in this article?
    2. NEOZ
      NEOZ 6 May 2020 10: 02 New
      +2
      Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
      To manipulate not very sane people is not very difficult, which this article confirms well.

      I completely agree!!!
      article 100% manipulation !!!! from the series "any person will die sooner or later ... the conclusion: the Ministry of Health resign !!!!"
  7. codetalker
    codetalker 6 May 2020 06: 57 New
    +8
    Well, the Su-57, too, at first were going to purchase 6-12 units. And now a contract for 76 pieces has been signed. Maybe this is not as much as we would like, but not a little. So, the prophet of you was not very ....
    1. Zementbomber
      Zementbomber 8 May 2020 05: 46 New
      +1
      now signed a contract for 76 pieces. Maybe this is not as much as we would like, but not a little. So, the prophet of you was not very ....

      How much is this compared to the available F-22 fleet and ordered - F-35 ?? bully
      1. codetalker
        codetalker 8 May 2020 06: 05 New
        0
        Why did you decide that is important?
        1. Zementbomber
          Zementbomber 11 May 2020 01: 55 New
          0
          Because it essentially characterizes the operational capabilities of the national group and the export potential of the product ... wink smile
  8. Warrior MorePhoto
    Warrior MorePhoto 6 May 2020 07: 08 New
    +7
    Here is what could be, because the operational life on the BTR 82a is still in effect, there is no urgency (and $ not really free) to introduce a boomerang, especially since their combat potential (82) is improved due to the installation of new combat modules. Yes, today in the modern war they are not at the peak of perfection, even more so, they are mortally dangerous if they are landmines or shelling simply from 7.62 machine guns with armor-piercing guns ... but if that is taken into account in the tactics of conduct, and, in principle, in the same Syria of Kamaz Typhoon, not armored personnel carrier 82 with guys on the armor ...
    The export option is being pushed as an option in order to work out the current model, and in order to acquire money in order to improve for ourselves, it is not unimportant to give jobs and start production.

    According to T 14, it is sad that not in the troops, but even here the same situation may be, there is an updated T-72 B3, but yesterday, and note that infa about new shipments of tanks to Syria, this is T-90! Why do we still continue to "rivet" yesterday to ourselves? I think in order to then, with minimal effort, modify it to a heavy unmanned tank, it turns out that it is already ready, almost ...
    Why T 90, if there is Armata T 14? It is possible to reduce $ funds in a proportion of, for example, 40% - T90, 60% - T 14, or variations ...

    Su 57 will be, like the quantity signed, ahead of 8 years of production. The only question is with the engine of the second stage ... I don’t even think about the photon radar, but if they do and bring it to real use, there will be joy ...
    Why for export? So in general the 5th generation is only the United States, we, China ... why not?

    In general, I want everything, immediately and the best ... as always)
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 6 May 2020 07: 20 New
      +8
      because it is necessary to maintain combat readiness. therefore, they will always upgrade in any army in the world. t 72 b 3 makes it possible to quickly replace old equipment. replenishment of radically new samples is enough for a gradual replacement. you can’t decide in one day to replace all the tanks with new ones.
      1. Zementbomber
        Zementbomber 8 May 2020 05: 44 New
        +1
        t 72 b 3 makes it possible to quickly replace old equipment. replenishment of radically new samples is enough for a gradual replacement. you can’t decide in one day to replace all the tanks with new ones.

        T-72 - obsolete even before it was put into production. If you want - I can even explain - "chomu" ... bully
        1. Aag
          Aag 8 May 2020 15: 51 New
          0
          Quote: Zementbomber
          t 72 b 3 makes it possible to quickly replace old equipment. replenishment of radically new samples is enough for a gradual replacement. you can’t decide in one day to replace all the tanks with new ones.

          T-72 - obsolete even before it was put into production. If you want - I can even explain - "chomu" ... bully

          Explain, please.
          1. Zementbomber
            Zementbomber 10 May 2020 22: 08 New
            0
            Absolutely disgusting ergonomics, very weak means of information and communication support, unsuccessful AZ, an arms stabilizer with unacceptably limited capabilities, small practical ammunition and its extremely unsuccessful placement, spaced armor only at the tower (and even then not in all even vertical projections) with fiberglass or even sand.
            1. Aag
              Aag 11 May 2020 05: 57 New
              0
              Quote: Zementbomber
              Absolutely disgusting ergonomics, very weak means of information and communication support, unsuccessful AZ, an arms stabilizer with unacceptably limited capabilities, small practical ammunition and its extremely unsuccessful placement, spaced armor only at the tower (and even then not in all even vertical projections) with fiberglass or even sand.


              Thanks for the clarification. But, the question arises: what, and how to fix it on the modifications? hi
              1. Zementbomber
                Zementbomber 11 May 2020 09: 36 New
                0
                The problem is that almost all of these points (except for the nonradical item 1, item 2, item 4.) Can be corrected within the framework of modernization of a smaller volume than replacing a tower with a completely new one - up to its essentially new geometry - even in theory physically impossible.
                1. Aag
                  Aag 11 May 2020 09: 47 New
                  0
                  That is, it remains to be hoped that tank battles will not come to us recourse ? After all, T-72s, with modifications, make up the majority (?).
                  1. Zementbomber
                    Zementbomber 11 May 2020 10: 09 New
                    0
                    Well, NUD real the doctrine of the use of NE Russia suggests that is true probable opponents of the federal ground forces - will be the ground forces of states, which have the same or even worse UG than the current Russian tank fleet. It should not be forgotten that the basis of the PLA's tank fleet is still the "Type 59" (although "not everything is so simple" there - the Chinese already have tanks in "large quantities" that are much better than the latest versions of the T-90). T-64 (which you consider to be worse than the T-72 - a controversial opinion, but this is your almost universal opinion). Turkey is still almost and even uses M46 (M48 - that's right), Georgia and Azerbaijan do not exist as a military force in the event of a large-scale war. Mongolia itself does not exist at all as a military force in the event of any, even the most insignificant, armed conflict. The Afghan National Army and the Ground Forces of all Central Asian states except Kazakhstan (where the same old T-72 models are in service, and T-54/55 are in reserve at all) are generally not capable of "regular war". Iran is exceptionally strong in defense on the ground, but it will be completely helpless in the offensive. And in the case of Belarus, they expect (completely wrongly by the way) that they simply won't open fire on the "brothers" if anything ...
  9. Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat 6 May 2020 07: 25 New
    +4
    Right! It is urgent to finish off the military-industrial complex, dissolve the army, feed 1000 and 1 grandmother with a cat with this money! No one needs armament! You can’t eat it! laughing
    Not once heard this nonsense. May be enough?
  10. Doliva63
    Doliva63 6 May 2020 07: 31 New
    -8
    Yes, it’s not a matter of price — we decide this question, if anything. And the fact that this armored personnel carrier is not needed in the army, weighing like a T-62 tank, is the point.
    1. kjhg
      kjhg 6 May 2020 08: 41 New
      12
      Quote: Doliva63
      Yes, it’s not a matter of price — we decide this question, if anything. And the fact that this armored personnel carrier is not needed in the army, weighing like a T-62 tank, is the point.

      And who issued the terms of reference for the development of such an armored personnel carrier, tank and infantry fighting vehicle? Isn't our MO? It, darling. It was our generals throughout the country who shouted that they would no longer purchase coffins on wheels and tracks (BTR-82A and BMP-3) and the 25th modernization of the T-34. It turns out that the current generals are quite happy with coffins? Of course not. There is simply no money for the purchase of new developments. But you can’t talk about it. This will put an end to their career.
      1. Alexga
        Alexga 6 May 2020 10: 46 New
        +2
        And who issued the terms of reference for the development of such an armored personnel carrier, tank and infantry fighting vehicle? Isn't our MO? It, darling.

        I do not think this is more like the ideas of the UVZ bureau. Terminator is an example. IMHO
      2. Doliva63
        Doliva63 6 May 2020 19: 45 New
        -4
        Quote: kjhg
        Quote: Doliva63
        Yes, it’s not a matter of price — we decide this question, if anything. And the fact that this armored personnel carrier is not needed in the army, weighing like a T-62 tank, is the point.

        And who issued the terms of reference for the development of such an armored personnel carrier, tank and infantry fighting vehicle? Isn't our MO? It, darling. It was our generals throughout the country who shouted that they would no longer purchase coffins on wheels and tracks (BTR-82A and BMP-3) and the 25th modernization of the T-34. It turns out that the current generals are quite happy with coffins? Of course not. There is simply no money for the purchase of new developments. But you can’t talk about it. This will put an end to their career.

        What makes you think that the MO ordered an armored personnel carrier for 34 tons of infantry? This is nonsense. It doesn’t swim and will not pass over the bridge. How can the MCP company perform its tasks on such machines? I once planted an armored personnel carrier in a swamp on my belly - 4 BMPs of the neighbors were barely pulled out, and is it right away to throw it, or what? laughing Have you served in the army to talk about what she needs and what doesn’t?
        1. Zementbomber
          Zementbomber 11 May 2020 09: 49 New
          -1
          What makes you think that the MO ordered an armored personnel carrier for 34 tons of infantry? This is nonsense. It doesn’t swim and will not pass over the bridge.

          Are you aware that MSBN usually acts as part of the BTGR? Those. he is given a tank company. And its tactical mobility is limited by the patency of those same tanks over bridges and soils. Which are heavier than 34 tons and much more demanding on the bearing capacity of the soil than BMP-3.
          And what to complete in MSB of compounds intended for operations on a theater with a developed river network, two companies of TBMP and one company of LBMP (capable of swimming) - as a solution for the future, it was recommended by the General Staff and supported by the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces in 1988.
          And what for heavily wetlands and the tundra - battles need to be equipped with armored personnel carriers on a snow and swamp chassis?
          PS Because the "authorities" in military matters are "specialists" with the experience of commanding the ISR 100500 years ago - they have been and are doing regularly.
          1. Doliva63
            Doliva63 11 May 2020 18: 15 New
            0
            Quote: Zementbomber
            What makes you think that the MO ordered an armored personnel carrier for 34 tons of infantry? This is nonsense. It doesn’t swim and will not pass over the bridge.

            Are you aware that MSBN usually acts as part of the BTGR? Those. he is given a tank company. And its tactical mobility is limited by the patency of those same tanks over bridges and soils. Which are heavier than 34 tons and much more demanding on the bearing capacity of the soil than BMP-3.
            And what to complete in MSB of compounds intended for operations on a theater with a developed river network, two companies of TBMP and one company of LBMP (capable of swimming) - as a solution for the future, it was recommended by the General Staff and supported by the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces in 1988.
            And what for heavily wetlands and the tundra - battles need to be equipped with armored personnel carriers on a snow and swamp chassis?
            PS Because the "authorities" in military matters are "specialists" with the experience of commanding the ISR 100500 years ago - they have been and are doing regularly.

            Have you been commanding the MCP for a long time? laughing
            1. Zementbomber
              Zementbomber 12 May 2020 00: 37 New
              0
              Never commanded. Light infantry company for operations in the jungle, 1996-97. - if you are so interested in exactly my team experience. smile
              1. Doliva63
                Doliva63 13 May 2020 19: 43 New
                0
                Curious, of course, experience, but to assess the demand for a particular technique in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (I, however, did not serve in it laughing ) is clearly insufficient, agree. We have neither light infantry nor jungle here. It was nice to talk hi
      3. Tavrik
        Tavrik 6 May 2020 21: 30 New
        +3
        Nothing? This state of affairs suits everyone. The generals are assimilating the allocated money by forming TK. The industry cheerfully masters them through OCD and the manufacture of prototypes. Then the first and second years carry out tests, at the end of which it is time to begin the modernization of the created. All in business. If you take something into service, it means taking responsibility. But is it necessary? What matters is not the result, but the process.
    2. telobezumnoe
      telobezumnoe 6 May 2020 20: 05 New
      +1
      need and need new technologies, they allow you to change the tactics of behavior, optimize. for example, the presence of a bius in the same armored personnel carrier will allow you to remotely monitor its ammunition, fuel, and supply services in automatic mode to know in which places how much should be delivered (well, for example) and this will free up time for the crew, allow the commander to devote more time to directly the tactics of using technology, and so on. in the same 80, there is already no place to install all the additional equipment, which only complicates the life of the crew, and even this zoo of any interfaces, you have to drag a bunch of additional equipment to ensure compatibility. in the end, the car was already running out of space. and after all everyone wants to swim, to have high passability, reliability and safety ..
      1. Tavrik
        Tavrik 6 May 2020 21: 35 New
        +4
        You cannot gradually upgrade a sailing battleship to an armadillo, and then an armadillo to a missile cruiser. And what exactly happens to us with buses and other automation is exactly what it reminds. Hence the cumbersomeness, high cost and inconvenience of use. Unlike the adversary, who has the same terminals in all cars, tanks and other armored personnel carriers.
  11. BARKAS
    BARKAS 6 May 2020 07: 35 New
    +8
    Then the joyful cries subside and the usual routine sets in.

    Something I did not understand is it good or bad?
    Is it necessary to continue the joyful cries, or still begin the usual routine, that is, work?
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. gvozdan
    gvozdan 6 May 2020 07: 49 New
    +1
    All these developments and plans for their serial deliveries to the RF Armed Forces of which years? 2014 and earlier. How much oil was then?

    My opinion is stupidly there is no money so far, and there are more pressing items of expenditure
    1. The comment was deleted.
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  16. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 6 May 2020 08: 15 New
    +2
    An armored personnel carrier and infantry fighting vehicles are more necessary for the Russian Federation than Armata. And while the new products will not be in service with us, no one will buy them.
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 6 May 2020 20: 09 New
      -2
      Quote: Zaurbek
      An armored personnel carrier and infantry fighting vehicles are more necessary for the Russian Federation than Armata. And while the new products will not be in service with us, no one will buy them.

      That is, in order to sell this shit to Africa, we must take it into service? Cool! laughing
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 6 May 2020 21: 31 New
        +4
        And what the crap is there?
        1. kjhg
          kjhg 7 May 2020 14: 10 New
          +5
          Do not argue with the former BTR-80 mechanical drive. After all, he was once so stuck on it that 3 bmp were barely pulled out. Now for him, anything heavier than 80s is shit.
          1. Doliva63
            Doliva63 7 May 2020 21: 54 New
            0
            Quote: kjhg
            Do not argue with the former BTR-80 mechanical drive. After all, he was once so stuck on it that 3 bmp were barely pulled out. Now for him, anything heavier than 80s is shit.

            Your competence in military matters is the level of the "mechanic of the BTR-80", because there is no such position. But for you I will unfold: I was then the commander of the reconnaissance platoon / chief reconnaissance of the SME on the armored personnel carrier - so imagine how my scouts will go to reconnaissance on these monsters under 3 meters in height? Where and how can you hide on one, how to disguise it, how to avoid premature detection with such dimensions? No, it's full of shit, I don't want to fight on this.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Aag
              Aag 8 May 2020 15: 57 New
              0
              Quote: Doliva63
              Quote: kjhg
              Do not argue with the former BTR-80 mechanical drive. After all, he was once so stuck on it that 3 bmp were barely pulled out. Now for him, anything heavier than 80s is shit.

              Your competence in military matters is the level of the "mechanic of the BTR-80", because there is no such position. But for you I will unfold: I was then the commander of the reconnaissance platoon / chief reconnaissance of the SME on the armored personnel carrier - so imagine how my scouts will go to reconnaissance on these monsters under 3 meters in height? Where and how can you hide on one, how to disguise it, how to avoid premature detection with such dimensions? No, it's full of shit, I don't want to fight on this.

              There was such a position in my unit.
              For the rest, about the dimensions, I agree with you.
              1. Doliva63
                Doliva63 8 May 2020 18: 37 New
                0
                Quote: AAG
                Quote: Doliva63
                Quote: kjhg
                Do not argue with the former BTR-80 mechanical drive. After all, he was once so stuck on it that 3 bmp were barely pulled out. Now for him, anything heavier than 80s is shit.

                Your competence in military matters is the level of the "mechanic of the BTR-80", because there is no such position. But for you I will unfold: I was then the commander of the reconnaissance platoon / chief reconnaissance of the SME on the armored personnel carrier - so imagine how my scouts will go to reconnaissance on these monsters under 3 meters in height? Where and how can you hide on one, how to disguise it, how to avoid premature detection with such dimensions? No, it's full of shit, I don't want to fight on this.

                There was such a position in my unit.
                For the rest, about the dimensions, I agree with you.

                Wrote, wrote the answer, but he disappeared laughing On the armored personnel carrier - the driver; we, for example, they had the position of "scout driver", but not a mechanic laughing And the fur-water is all tracked, including the BTR-D. Although, maybe now everything is different, I did not serve in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.
                1. Aag
                  Aag 8 May 2020 18: 54 New
                  +1
                  It happens, it happened too lol
                  Apparently, not the type of mover (wheel, caterpillar) of a vehicle determines the position: MAZ-543, -7917 drivers, mechanics-drives a spruce ...
                  And the typists in the offices stood on the posts of scout motorcyclists! laughing
                  1. Doliva63
                    Doliva63 8 May 2020 19: 04 New
                    +1
                    "The typists in the offices were in the positions of scout motorcyclists!" Really cool! laughing It wouldn’t have happened with us.
                    With regards to drivers. As far as I remember, it was not a mover, but a subordination of technology: if it went along the line of automobile control, then it was drivers, if along the line of armored vehicles it was mechanical water. The armored personnel carrier went along the line of automobile. The exception was just motorcycles - they walked along the GBTU line, but they were not called mechanical drivers laughing But I won’t argue about MAZs - I don’t remember how it was, at least once I had a bunch of MAZ and KrAZ.
                    1. Aag
                      Aag 8 May 2020 19: 17 New
                      +1
                      I will say more, we never had motorcycles, and the position was for the wartime staff!
                      Yes to us (Strategic Rocket Forces), everything was somewhat different from others. smile
                      1. Doliva63
                        Doliva63 8 May 2020 19: 30 New
                        +1
                        Quote: AAG
                        I will say more, we never had motorcycles, and the position was for the wartime staff!
                        Yes to us (Strategic Rocket Forces), everything was somewhat different from others. smile

                        Finally cool! laughing Incidentally, I did not have long to serve in the Strategic Missile Forces - in Chita I formed an army company to combat saboteurs when the missile army was there. Area of ​​responsibility - right up to Orenburg! Indeed, in the Strategic Rocket Forces everything is somewhat different from the others! laughing drinks
                      2. Aag
                        Aag 8 May 2020 19: 54 New
                        0
                        In what year? In the 88th lieutenant I came to Drovyanaya. drinks
                      3. Doliva63
                        Doliva63 8 May 2020 19: 59 New
                        0
                        In the fall of the 90th. After replacing the GSVG.
                      4. Aag
                        Aag 8 May 2020 20: 06 New
                        +1
                        We had already done a disgusting deed then, - we cut down the "Pioneers" by launches ...
                      5. Doliva63
                        Doliva63 10 May 2020 19: 38 New
                        0
                        Quote: AAG
                        We had already done a disgusting deed then, - we cut down the "Pioneers" by launches ...

                        53 army. drinks I don't remember the commander, but the chief of staff was Major General Negashev with me, if sclerosis doesn't lie. Well, you were the first to "write off" the Pioneers - but such is the fate, nothing can be done.
    2. Zementbomber
      Zementbomber 11 May 2020 10: 19 New
      0
      In general, you understand that the BTR-80 in the intelligence station of the MSB is a pIchal. For which one who has completed the staffing should be deprived of at least a couple of asterisks? And that "Bumo Bloomberanga" this - no one reconnaissance platoons not collectCTSC?
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 11 May 2020 19: 02 New
        0
        Why is this if SMEs are on an APC? It’s even logical. That reconnaissance was on the tracks, because The regiment was a tank. In the neighboring infantry regiment in the reconnaissance vehicle there were 2 armored personnel carriers and 6 armored personnel carriers again. Unification - have you heard? laughing
        1. Zementbomber
          Zementbomber 12 May 2020 01: 00 New
          0
          Yes - I know that "optimization" was invented long before this "magic word" appeared. bully That does not negate the fact that assigning the BTR-80 to the ISB reconnaissance station on the armored personnel carrier is an enchanting manifestation of the "alternative giftedness" of those who made such a decision. BRDM-2 there is a place. With the reconnaissance company "wheeled" MSR - the situation is different - it has a reconnaissance airborne platoon. If there is only a tank baht and one battery in a regiment on tracks, wheeled armored personnel carriers are quite appropriate in this platoon.
          1. Doliva63
            Doliva63 13 May 2020 19: 58 New
            0
            I didn’t understand here. What a reconnaissance landing platoon, what are you ?! The closest platoon to the infantry is in the reconnaissance division laughing And not everywhere. For example, I had an airborne assault platoon, consisting of 3 reconnaissance assault groups, and somewhere there were reconnaissance airborne platoons with reconnaissance assault squads. Who is "sharpened" under what. But there was nothing of the kind below the division. True, the training of regimental reconnaissance companies included both VAR and mountain training, but this was not practiced everywhere.
  • Doliva63
    Doliva63 7 May 2020 21: 41 New
    0
    Quote: Zaurbek
    And what the crap is there?

    If about Boomerang, then that's it.
  • Eug
    Eug 6 May 2020 08: 16 New
    +3
    Soviet technology, as for me, was in demand for a number of reasons - the geopolitical "umbrella" was built according to the concept of "simpler and cheaper" alternative to the West. The "umbrella", to put it mildly, is now full of holes, the concept "simpler and cheaper" is being successfully mastered by "partners", often with equipment from stocks and on the basis of Soviet developments. Conclusion - for commercial success, you need a really breakthrough technique, like ground air defense systems, BMP-3. Otherwise, attempts to compete with competitors in their field (and now the equipment is ordered and developed with a very significant regard for the requirements of the "partners") will not be successful. Unfortunately, as far as I understand, there is no analogue of the former Military-Industrial Commission now, or when making decisions, considerations of "cutting" prevail, and the institution of Generals, who have a very serious influence and authority in discussing the concepts of the developed technology, has largely been lost ...
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  • Alexga
    Alexga 6 May 2020 08: 56 New
    +1
    I can’t say that the author is wrong. Yes, the current military-industrial complex, at present, first of all, creates goods for sale for export. Here the main question is getting money. But this has very little relation to the creation of models for the protection of their Fatherland. See for yourself how much of what was created went into service with your army. Yes, budget money is being spent, but not for the good of his army. And the participation of such new models in the Parade is nothing more than an advertising action. Or maybe the army is simply not asked about its needs.
    1. bars1
      bars1 6 May 2020 11: 42 New
      +1
      Quote: AlexGa
      Or maybe the army is simply not asked about its needs.

      Our poor army, strangled by the oligarchs from the military-industrial complex! I was already crying.
  • Maks1995
    Maks1995 6 May 2020 09: 09 New
    -2
    Good article.
    Horror. Tin.

    Although logic is still in the approach.
    You can’t produce new weapons, you don’t have enough power or order, so save at least design bureaus and schools.

    To order them the development of more and more new generations of Armat, Teminators, boomerangs, nuclear Aircraft carriers, cruisers, Angara, Federations, etc. Though we will keep the old school.

    And then maybe aliens will fly in, and will be shot for theft and excess profits ....
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 6 May 2020 09: 29 New
    +7
    If we compare Boomerang with the main competitors in the foreign market, then there are two of them:

    laughing laughing laughing
    Two?
    Or two hundred twenty two?

    In fact, the market in the segment of wheeled BM is overloaded, there are cars for any required capabilities and for any wallet. Yes, plus the active pressure of the armored vehicles segment and MRAP

    It's just that the Deripaska guys are stupidly late. Because we chased the short-term opportunity to milk the army for the modernization of the BTR-80 and the release of the BTR-82
  • Xenofont
    Xenofont 6 May 2020 09: 30 New
    +2
    The author has a quarantine depression ... And so depressing, and then the prospect is postponed along with the way out of isolation. Only work is underway and new tests in the new building will begin in June, according to official data. Crackling about export is the mantra of "effective managers", so it's easier to grab.
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  • Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 6 May 2020 09: 59 New
    +1
    There is only one reasonable explanation for this leapfrog - they want to drive the intelligence of our partners crazy ...
  • Kolin
    Kolin 6 May 2020 10: 12 New
    -1
    It seems that Skomorokhov is not aware that the price of equipment for himself and for export is different. EMNIP su-35 price 2,2-2,3 billion rubles. and the su-57 2,6-2,7 billion rubles.
    About Boomer is generally funny, the car has not yet completed the test, and here conclusions are already being drawn of cosmic dimensions and cosmic stupidity.
  • Klingon
    Klingon 6 May 2020 10: 18 New
    +1
    our ministry of defense reminds me of Brahmanov, they too cannot always decide what they want. That's the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, at first they order it then it turns out not to be necessary. And it also reminds a woman who, having ordered a bunch of junk in the Internet catalog, begins to measure and understand that nothing suits and does not like. As a result, all the junk goes back
  • DMi
    DMi 6 May 2020 11: 32 New
    -1
    It is interesting what the author will write when the boomerang goes to the series and to the troops. And this is inevitable. A car of this class and performance characteristics in the army is needed, badly needed. So, despite all the problems, the boomerang is in service. But the "analysts", as usual, do not see the forest for the trees. I am looking forward to a text that will come up with an "excuse" why the boomerang was still adopted and went into production by the hundreds.
    1. Gost2012
      Gost2012 6 May 2020 12: 29 New
      -1
      Quote: DMi
      It is interesting what the author will write when the boomerang goes to the series and to the troops. And this is inevitable. A car of this class and performance characteristics in the army is needed, badly needed. So, despite all the problems, the boomerang is in service. But the "analysts", as usual, do not see the forest for the trees. I am looking forward to a text that will come up with an "excuse" why the boomerang was still adopted and went into production by the hundreds.

      So he writes - let’s go in the hundreds, but thousands would have to. They stole it .. Thousands will go - they will write - it was not necessary at all, they cut it and stole it ... Well, the pensions were stolen in both cases. This is Skomorokhov, no matter what he writes about, the output is the same.
    2. codetalker
      codetalker 6 May 2020 14: 28 New
      0
      Well, as you see, the story of the author’s SU-57 did not make us think or come up with an excuse.
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  • Incompetent
    Incompetent 6 May 2020 12: 21 New
    -1
    Yes, because in 2019 there were 37 more oligarchs and all corporations increased profits, and they only give as much to the really needed industries that they do not die. And with the army as well. There is enough money except for strategic weapons and for easy modernization of old equipment, and this is the end of the tale. Or do you think that already 70 Su-57 is enough? Or 137 different armatures? Yes, this is a disgrace !!!! It would be better if they just sent everyone 3 letters and said that we would plunder everything, it would be at least honest!
  • Clerk
    Clerk 6 May 2020 13: 50 New
    +2
    When will it finally reach Internet scribblers that it may take 10-15 (or even more) years from the beginning of R&D to the start of serial purchases of samples of new military equipment? If anyone believes that I am talking nonsense, then let him read the history of the development of equipment in the USSR: the same T-64 finally, which they started designing in the early 60s, and serial purchases began in the mid-late 70s. And what the prototypes show at the parade is so that the alarmists’s nerves calm down, in which Russia does not design and create anything after the collapse of the Union.
    1. Alexga
      Alexga 6 May 2020 19: 11 New
      +1
      When will it finally reach Internet scribblers that it may take 10-15 (or even more) years from the beginning of R&D to the start of serial purchases of samples of new military equipment?

      Will never reach. The main audience perceives the army and its weapons through computer games.
  • Siberian54
    Siberian54 6 May 2020 14: 18 New
    +1
    Well, what are you so excited about the procurement of military equipment .. The epidemic will pass, the economy will recover, money will appear .. And the rest is like the war for the planet began in 46, so still no one wants to round off with it, just another player came. . But the State Department has not forgotten about us ..
  • boltroot
    boltroot 6 May 2020 14: 19 New
    -1
    So, we’ll immediately buy SU-57 1000 copies, 10 thousand Armat tanks, and the Boomerangs in general, an uncountable amount! Let it be brought to mind first, or else they were looking for what they thought up, copies of the first stage, such as a weight-weight model, then a conveyor copy that does not quite meet the declared characteristics, and after 10 years, what you need!
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 6 May 2020 16: 17 New
    +1
    The J-20 fighter was put into service in 2017, is now in experimental military operation, and nowhere except for the PLA Air Force is it in service.
    Su-57, Armata, Boomerang will undergo experimental military operation for a long time, this is an inevitable stage before being put into series, there is no need to panic.
  • pepel
    pepel 6 May 2020 16: 26 New
    0
    So you need to at least in the military-industrial complex to return to the priority of reducing costs, and profit should be relegated to the background.
  • demiurg
    demiurg 6 May 2020 20: 31 New
    +1
    The article is some kind of bold draft on the fan.
    1 SU-57 is being purchased. Purchased in standard series for recent years, 8-12 cars per year. You can dump a lot of money, upgrade the plant, recruit and train people, and do all 70 in a year. And then moan that thousands of workers have been laid off, and post photos of an empty factory.
    2. Armata in trials. The army is waiting for her, and the tank and infantry fighting vehicles. And yes, you can also start moaning in advance. After completing the tests, the battalion / brigade maximum set per year will be purchased. Again, the budget is not rubber. If the Moscow Region says that it wants N samples of equipment, this does not mean that it will be purchased tomorrow.
    3 Boomerang, 30+ tons. What kind of armored personnel carrier is? This is a wheeled infantry fighting vehicle. With care. In the communications company, it is the very replacement. And cshm too. And this is in return for the 16-ton BTR-82, and even poking at heart that his armor is thinner? They need to be replaced approximately 6 thousand. There are wonderful Kurgan and T-15, so they will go on the role of BMP. But the armored personnel carrier is needed inexpensive.
    4 MiG-35, but how many to buy them? Is this a revolutionary machine? Or is the MiG-35 two times cheaper than the Su-35?
    And what not to mention as about the BTR 82, that this is a glider and engine originally from the late sixties, and even a passive headlight does not have an instant in the series?
  • Tavrik
    Tavrik 6 May 2020 21: 42 New
    0
    Quote: demiurg
    In the communications company, it is the very replacement. And cshm too.

    It, of course, is correct, only KShM on the basis of this armored personnel carrier will be developed another 8-10 years.
  • Shavkat Kuvatov
    Shavkat Kuvatov 6 May 2020 22: 07 New
    0
    That's for sure. Buyers from Africa will not pay the costs.
  • iouris
    iouris 6 May 2020 22: 41 New
    -1
    Quote: "Why spend millions of rubles if the fruits of labor will be used anywhere but in Russia?" End of quote.
    Normal marketing approach: 3P concept (People-Place-Price). No money? Step aside.
  • Pacifist with AK
    Pacifist with AK 6 May 2020 22: 43 New
    +2
    Skororokhov, as often happens, is cunning, skillfully kneading his brew. It seems to be a lot of clever thoughts, but the output is something inedible. What is the conclusion of the article - do not spend money on research and development? To lose competence, to squander in electronics, materials science, etc.? Katz offers to give up?
    Question: Roman, what did you want to say ????
  • Givi_49
    Givi_49 7 May 2020 00: 50 New
    +3
    Or order not what is needed, or do not what is ordered? Or both this and that?
  • Voyager
    Voyager 7 May 2020 08: 47 New
    -3
    Even the headline is already yellow and deceitful, what to say about the whole article.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 7 May 2020 08: 59 New
    +2
    Quote: Aviator_
    Well, at the time of the production of HF, Comrade Salzman could well have gone to cut down the wood, or not to go further than the walls, so he counted the price so quickly.

    It’s just that rates and rates were cut and voila. Only who will make you 30 missiles? You really like that yourself ...
  • Oleg1
    Oleg1 7 May 2020 09: 53 New
    -2
    “It is bad to be a prophet in your own country. But alas, what has been said repeatedly before has happened.



    Rosoboronexport, through the words of CEO Alexander Mikheev, spoke about the “huge export potential” of the Boomerang platform. Yes, the very one that was so impressive in parades, which is the latest, not having, superior and so on in the text. ”

    So what? It is believed that this technique can be exported, and why is it bad? That the military-industrial complex will make money? Or does the author not like this? All military orders abroad should go to the United States?

    “Not so long ago we were discussing the layouts of the MiG-35, which was ordered simply by a deafening series of 6 (SIX !!!) machines. I don’t know if there were any more sensitive slap-blows in the history of MiG RSK, I think not. But the fact: the plane was not in demand at all and was not needed. Six copies are just for impressions to potential buyers. Well, the corresponding accompaniment in the form of a phonogram with a song about export potential. ”

    The machine is still brought raw, this is a completely normal process, but for some, the chef has disappeared for some reason to howl! Plaster is removed, the patient leaves. All this is disgusting ....

    Threat and it is a pity that IN struck another bottom ...
  • Sergey Ochkivsky
    Sergey Ochkivsky 7 May 2020 10: 34 New
    +1
    I do not agree with the CONCLUSIONS of the author. He worked as the head of the association, which included almost all the enterprises of the defense industrial complex of St. Petersburg, so I know many questions NOT BY HEARING, but from the lips of the directors. The fact that there are CLAIMS to power, so they WILL always be. Management decisions DO NOT HAVE ONLY POSITIVE, THIS IS A SET OF ADVANTAGES AND MINUSES. Efficiency of decisions - to decompose minuses where they are minimally negative, and pluses are maximally effective under the prevailing conditions. Therefore, ANY decision can be either raised or lowered below the plinth. Now to the essence of the material. In the 90s, defense enterprises survived ONLY THANKS TO EXPORT. I know an enterprise in which 80-90% of products are exported even now. Therefore, the LACK OF THE OPPORTUNITY OF OWN ACS to purchase new weapons, I emphasize TEMPORARY, does not mean STagnation. Let us recall the History of the creation of the T-90 starting in 1986. An experimental new model was ready in early 1989. After 2 years, in March 1991, the Ministry of Defense recommended it for mass production, but subsequent events in the country did not allow to translate the plan into reality. The first state to conclude a contract for the supply of Russian T-90s was India. It was thanks to this transaction that the plant resumed production in 2001, when funding for the armed forces was sharply reduced, and the supply of its own army was suspended. One more minus of the material - FAR REALLY NOT ALWAYS THE DEVELOPMENT OF NEW SAMPLES OF WEAPONS ARRANGED IN BUDGET MONEY, at least 50% of the developments are carried out by the enterprises themselves. In the field of armaments, Russia is ahead of the United States by a generation (from 10 to 20 years in various forms). And these are HUNDREDS OF TECHNOLOGIES THAT DO NOT HAVE ANALOGUES IN THE WORLD, which are applicable AND in civilian areas. Therefore, IT IS COMPLETELY REASONABLE FOR THE AUTHORITIES TO INVESTMENT NOT IN PURCHASE OF NEW WEAPONS, BUT COMMERCIALIZATION OF NEW TECHNOLOGIES THAT WILL ALLOW TO SOLVE AND THE Root Question of OUR ECONOMY IS THE EXIT TO A NEW LEVEL.
  • Alexfly
    Alexfly 7 May 2020 17: 44 New
    +1
    The ANSWER is one: there is no money and never will be! Defend your homeland? Do women give birth? Already do not give birth, time is not right ....
  • Herman 4223
    Herman 4223 7 May 2020 18: 41 New
    0
    Not only will we not have new tanks, we may not have a country soon. We need to worry about it now.
  • Ru_Na
    Ru_Na 7 May 2020 19: 32 New
    +2
    To be honest, sometimes it’s very difficult to understand our military, they order military-industrial complex equipment under certain conditions and parameters, engineers, designers do it, spend time, finances, so that then they turn the nose off the ordered equipment, they say it's expensive and not really necessary ?! We no longer live in the USSR where it was rolled and we had several types of equipment for one task, the world has changed, our military should understand that the military-industrial complex will not work at a loss, spending time and resources on equipment that the customer then refuses, in the end we are talking about the country's defense capability.
    1. Zementbomber
      Zementbomber 8 May 2020 05: 39 New
      +1
      The military-industrial complex will not work at a loss, spending time and resources on equipment that the customer then refuses, in the end we are talking about the country's defense.

      I rightly understand that the ShtA has more tanks than in the rest of the World taken together - is it still not enough for you ?? bully
  • Russian Central Asian
    Russian Central Asian 8 May 2020 00: 27 New
    +1
    In my opinion, everything is somewhat simpler. The owners of the Russian OJSC decided to close this very OJSC, either as an office that did not bring the expected profit, or the accompanying risks, according to their forecasts, began to exceed the profit received, Well, maybe someone else offered the owners good money for the territory belonging to the company, well or sheep farming in our particular case. But no matter how it was, the owner firmly decided to say goodbye to the farm. He takes out furniture, trinkets, family gold and silverware from the master's house. The sheep, so that they would not get in the way under their feet and with their stupid and helpless appearance, did not rattle the heart of the now former owner, were driven into the sheepfold, where they quietly bleat from hunger and demand to let them out to graze (sorry for them, of course, but honestly - not up them, things must be done). So that the sheep would not arbitrarily knock out the gate and run away in front of the gate, they planted the shepherd's dogs with the order to hold and not let go, perhaps even the shepherd dogs were presented with the new owner of the land, and he had already promised them that in any case he would not leave them without a piece of bread. the main thing is that the service is carried out correctly. Well, in general, everything is somehow so. Personally, in this situation, I am interested in three things 1 to whom we or the land on which we graze sold. 2 Does the new owner intend to keep us as a livestock, or is he going to replace us with sweeter and more profitable breeds of sheep, well, and we are accordingly under the knife - for meat and skin. Or maybe he is not going to engage in sheep breeding at all and plans to build some kind of chemical industry on our former pasture.3 How exactly are they going to hold the ceremony of transfer of power. Well, for example, let's say the day after tomorrow-May 9, our former owner will speak on TV and say "- I'm tired, I'm leaving, look at the rams - here's your new owner, some Mr. Lee Seung Park, love him, obey and he will treat you well and sometimes even feed. Or one fine day we wake up, and on TV already completely different faces are shown, quite possibly with a slanted cut of the eyes. In principle, we cannot influence events in any way, just curious
    1. saygon66
      saygon66 8 May 2020 21: 30 New
      0
      - Tipun to your language, dear!
      - Because, if you look at all the current absurdities from the point of view of a commodity expert, everything will converge ....
  • Vladimir SHajkin
    Vladimir SHajkin 8 May 2020 00: 29 New
    0
    New developments are needed, because this is the development of technologies, materials and engineering skills, and it is necessary that these developments undergo normal military tests and service, because only this gives a further understanding of the possibilities and necessity.