Repair of Soviet helicopter engines. Poland has to ask EU for permission

The Demblin branch of the Polish military aircraft factory WZL No. 1 received an order for the repair of Soviet-designed TV3-117 turboprop engines (Klimov Design Bureau). These engines are currently equipped with Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters, which continue to be in service with the Polish Air Force.

Poland does not hide the fact that the country has recently encountered problems with servicing military equipment that has been in service either from the Soviet era or acquired in the early post-Soviet period - before the country joined NATO.

With the repair of engines of Soviet models - the problems stood apart. The fact is that in recent years Poland has not sent military and dual-use equipment for repair to the countries of the post-Soviet space (to Russia or Ukraine) and at the same time is experiencing difficulties with licensing repair facilities. Moreover, the refusal to send for repairs, for example, to Ukraine is not so much a Polish whim as a matter of agreements within the European Union.

The Polish media write that today it is WZL No. 1 that is the only industrial enterprise in the country authorized to repair TV3-117 engines. According to the latest information, the order for the repair of turboshaft engines will be about 56 million zlotys (a little less than 1 billion rubles).

At the same time, it is noted that before Poland had to coordinate the repair of helicopter engines with EU structures. The reason is that Poland should always consult with the EU on military-technical procedures so as not to violate European antitrust laws in this area.

In addition, Poland had to ask permission from EU officials to repair its own Mi-8 helicopters. According to recent reports, the EU gave approval after consultations. Now the Mi-8 will be repaired at the factory in Lodz. Warsaw is also awaiting approval of plans for the modernization of Mi-24 helicopters.

Comments

[Ravil_Asnafovich]

No permission, give them a rake with a very strong handle .

[Civil]

They will give as no, this is one gang.

[Sky strike fighter]

The fact is that in recent years Poland has not sent military and dual-use equipment for repair to the countries of the former Soviet Union (Russia or Ukraine) and at the same time is experiencing difficulties with licensing repair facilities. At the same time, refusing to send it for repair, for example, to Ukraine, is not so much a Polish whim as a matter of agreements within the European Union.

They force the Poles to buy equipment in the EU. Business. And contacting Ukraine is more expensive.

WARSAW, April 30, 2020, 07:45 - REGNUM On the anniversary of the forced relocation of Ukrainians from Poland to Ukraine as part of Operation Wisla, the Union of Ukrainians in Poland (ZUwP) demanded the return of deported property. This was reported by the Polish portal Kresy.pl.

The Union insists on the adoption by the Sejm of Poland of a resolution defining Operation Wisla as "an unjustifiable crime of communism." Another requirement is “the return to the former landowners and their descendants of land holdings, if the return is not possible, then the provision of appropriate compensation”.

The Union believes that the Institute of National Memory of Poland is obliged to “counteract the campaign aimed at the historical, moral and legal justification of the deportation of the Ukrainian population in 1947 and beyond.” ZUwP insists on “creating an institute of Ukrainian culture in community places,” stating that at present, Polish Ukrainians do not have “a real legal opportunity to preserve their cultural and national identity.”

The Union of Ukrainians in Poland also requires "legal protection of burial places of Ukrainian victims of ethnic cleansing and soldiers of the Ukrainian armed underground." As Kresy recalls in this regard. pl, what is called the Ukrainian armed underground in ZUwP circles, these are the organizers of the Pole genocide, in particular the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (an organization whose activities are prohibited in the Russian Federation).



Details: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2933872.html
Any use of materials is allowed only if there is a hyperlink to REGNUM.

[Zementbomber]

Well, and what’s amazing-unusual? The usual completely EU practice. In Poland, such escapades of Ukrainians are more than calm. For - Kiev depends on Warsaw, and not Warsaw - on Kiev ...

[bouncyhunter]

Quote: Ravil_Asnafovich

give them a rake with a very strong handle

To the handle an ax ...

[Sovetikus]

Quote: bouncyhunter

Quote: Ravil_Asnafovich

give them a rake with a very strong handle

To the handle an ax ...

Let Ukraine repair ..)))) It will be just right!

[bouncyhunter]

Loss of combat units shakes no one?

[Sovetikus]

Quote: bouncyhunter

Loss of combat units shakes no one?

Taki yes Pasha!

[TermNachTer]

But sho, are the Psheks going to fight with someone? They can only yap at Russia, sitting behind the NATO fence.

[orionvitt]

Quote: Sovetikus

Let Ukraine repair ..)))) It will be just right

The fact of the matter is that if the "Motor" is repaired, it will be practically a new engine. They have not forgotten how to do it yet. no, let the Poles themselves. Moreover, the "first" repair (with the replacement of some units, gaskets, and other trifles), the "second" repair, (with partial disassembly), can still be done at the repair shop. But the "third", overhaul, with complete disassembly, can be produced only at the manufacturer. That is, "Motor Sich". Well, since they are forbidden, then so be it.

[igor67]

Quote: orionvitt

can still be produced at a rembase. But the "third", overhaul, with complete disassembly, can be produced only at the manufacturer. That is, "Motor Sich". Well, since they are forbidden, then so be it.

Overhaul is done by Konotop Aviakon, in Soviet times, military aircraft V / Ch21653 on this rembase in the USSR did the overhaul of MI6, MI10 (k) MI26 helicopters, and all modifications of MI24, it was at this rembase that the Mil helicopter repair technology was developed together with the Rostov Helicopter Plant , representatives of Rostov worked for us, Motor Sich can generally be said not to be lawful, plus Aviakon has a license for repair work from Mil. and believe the quality of repair is at a high level, in 40 years one car fell and that was the fault of the crew

[orionvitt]

Quote: igor67

it was at this rembase that the technology for repairing Mil helicopters was developed together with the Rostov Helicopter Plant,

The conversation is not about helicopters, but about engines. Capital engine repairs were carried out exclusively at the manufacturer's plant, which gave a certificate of validity. Until 2015, TV3-117 was produced only at Motor Sich.

[igor67]

Quote: orionvitt

Quote: igor67

it was at this rembase that the technology for repairing Mil helicopters was developed together with the Rostov Helicopter Plant,

The conversation is not about helicopters, but about engines. Capital engine repairs were carried out exclusively at the manufacturer's plant, which gave a certificate of validity. Until 2015, TV3-117 was produced only at Motor Sich.

I agree, in the late 90s they started putting motors on the turntables Sichevsky new engines with new pumps, I don’t remember exactly Ener, in short, in 2000 someone stole these two pumps with passports, we were not allowed to all of the SBU from the workshop for an interview, the pumps to the station were with mi8 Heydar Aliyev. The funny thing is that you could steal someone who knew about these pumps, which are very expensive to the stat, increased the power and efficiency of the engine,

[orionvitt]

All fuel equipment on "Motor" engines, Russian production. Motor Sich itself did not produce fuel units.

increased engine power and efficiency

For almost 50 years of production of helicopter engines, their manufacturing technology has been polished to perfection. So it's not just about the "pumps".

[Pete mitchell]

Headhunterand you are evil
It is a matter of time before the Poles switch from 8 to black hawk - they produce / assemble it. A wave of amers to them in joy only. On Thu 24ku change the question is open, but in Europe there is no alternative

[Zementbomber]

On Thu 24ku change the question is open, but in Europe there is no alternative

In fact, there is not even one "alternative". Plus - "Apache".

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: Zementbomber

in fact - and not even one "alternative". Plus - "Apache".

I still wildly apologize, but what in Europe can compare with the 24th? Apache doesn’t count, it’s not European

[Zementbomber]

"Tiger", "Mongoose", T129.

[Pete mitchell]

Not one of them can compare with the 24th in booking, and in versatility too. EC665 is not reliable; Two relatives can generally be more classified as light and vulnerable.

[Pete mitchell]

And one must remember about the cost, also an important factor ...
Transfer to one of the Americans, do not go to the grandmother.

[Zementbomber]

If you mean "universality" in the sense of the possibility of using it as a "flying infantry fighting vehicle" - then this is not stupidly provided in NATO. So it doesn't matter.
"Tiger" - armored no worse than "Crocodile". Well, there is another tactic of the AA GP - emphasis on speed and especially - energetic maneuver. From the point of view of this tactics, the large mass and relatively low thrust-to-weight ratio of the Mi-24 is still a decent disadvantage.

[Archon]

with a rubber handle, so as not to be broken!

[Sovetikus]

Quote: Archon

with a rubber handle, so as not to be broken!

And then it could be used for its intended purpose ..)))

[TermNachTer]

So Banderlyand is the best friend of the EU in general and Poland in particular. Why can't we give the engines to the factory that made them - Motor Sich?

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: Ravil_Asnafovich

give them a rake with a very strong handle

After appropriate consultations and EU approval, they are imported from fraternal Ukraine. There is such good in bulk!

[svp67]

In addition, Poland had to ask permission from EU officials to repair its own Mi-8 helicopters. According to recent reports, the EU gave approval after consultations. Now the Mi-8 will be repaired at the factory in Lodz. Warsaw is also awaiting approval of plans for the modernization of Mi-24 helicopters.

Now explain to me why our UAC is silent? Wouldn't it be time to declare that KB Mil and KB Klimova did not give the green light to such work ... and even if it doesn’t solve much, but if something happens, they will be prohibited from using the same peacekeeping missions under the auspices of the UN.

At the same time, refusal to send for repairs, for example, to Ukraine is not so much a Polish whim as a matter of agreements within the European Union.

Well, if you can't take the motors to the manufacturer, you can also bring the "zarabitchan" with the "motor-sich" ... that's the solution to the problem

[Tusv]

Quote: svp67

Now explain to me why our UAC is silent? Wouldn't it be time to declare that KB Mil and KB Klimova did not give the go-ahead for such work.

By the way, with what kind of fright did Motor Sich license not be revoked

[Zementbomber]

Impossible. Corresponding The resolution of the Council of Ministers of the USSR does not provide for this. Well, you cannot yet close even your own domestic market TV3-117 and VK-2500 with the help of Klimov. Therefore, you have to show off in words - but carefully order and pay the Old Man to God.

[svp67]

Quote: Zementbomber

Therefore, you have to hang around in words - but carefully order and pay the Old Man to God.

Yes, he is only glad of this, it is not in vain that he has opened a bunch of "gaskets" enterprises in Belarus. His "MS" is no longer up to "show-off"

Quote: Zementbomber

Decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR - this does not provide

But what about dEcommunization? Zrada

[Zementbomber]

And even in Bulgaria. And yes - Old Man to God - never ponted. He knows very well that "MC" at a commanding height - and without loud phrases - uses this, cutting evergreen cabbage with large harvests. Such is the "gentlemen's agreement": The old man to God and his people - do not pedal that they "have you" in all the "physiological holes", and you - carefully pay for this pleasure. Honest deal!

[svp67]

Quote: Zementbomber

The old man to God and his people - do not pedal that they "have you in all" physiological holes ", and you - carefully pay for this pleasure. Honest deal!

You are apparently a Ukrainian, with the appropriate logic ... Old man Boguslavsky no longer knows who and in what positions to slip his and his employees "holes" in order to somehow save the enterprise he had saved earlier, it seems that we have already agreed with the Chinese, so here the Americans entered and they destroyed everything, so that he fussed in vain under the client.
And no one forced him to go to such tricks from Russia, for the sale of engines for us, all by himself, all by himself ... So, who has whom and how, you in vain touched on the topic ...
Goodbye Panov

[Zementbomber]

You are apparently Ukrainian, with the appropriate logic

I have a different nationality. Therefore, the logic - I really have. Unlike...

The old man Boguslavsky no longer knows who and in what positions to slip his and his employees "holes" in order to somehow save the enterprise he had saved earlier

Boguslaev is his surname in fact. But you continue to wet fantasies further. "MC" will outlive all those in VO - who are now 40 and more - competition on the "non-domestic" market for its TV-D for turntables of Soviet design - not only is it not, but so far even in the most general terms is not expected.

And from Russia, no one forced him to go to such tricks, to sell us engines, all by himself, all by himself ...

Of course, "no one forced." Forcing - having a stronger position. Therefore, comrade God - I had to ask. Polite, respectful and not for nothing.

So, who has whom and how, in vain did you touch on the topic ...

Why? The answer is quite obvious! Has - Old Man to God. You.

Goodbye Panov

And all the best to you!

[Zementbomber]

But what about dEcommunization? Zrada

What? "de-communization" - these are bans on ideological and political activities, symbols, toponyms, etc. And so - in the corpus of normative acts of Ukraine there are still the JV of the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers of the USSR. Regulating the procedure for the allocation of mineral fertilizers KSP from the state reserve, for example.

[Tusv]

Quote: Zementbomber

Impossible. Acc. Decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR - this does not provide.

For the decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR to work, one must be part of the USSR. And so pay grandmas gentlemen Sumerians and do not shine

[Zementbomber]

So - what are the problems? Make me pay! You - "like" cool "!" Russia is in [different places] "and so on. Oh - can't you, weak? Well - then wipe yourself off quietly and don't leave ...

[Zementbomber]

"Cons" and "Pros" - aka a symbol of POWER and Greatness of the Russian Federation ...

[Sky strike fighter]

Quote: Zementbomber

Impossible. Corresponding The resolution of the Council of Ministers of the USSR does not provide for this. Well, you cannot yet close even your own domestic market TV3-117 and VK-2500 with the help of Klimov. Therefore, you have to show off in words - but carefully order and pay the Old Man to God.

Your information is not true. The military-industrial complex of Russia no longer has any dependence on Ukraine.

Russia has solved the problem of dependence on Ukrainian engines and other units for the needs of the fleet and the helicopter fleet. This was stated by Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov. According to him, now the production of these mechanisms is carried out by NPO Saturn and OJSC Klimov.

https://russian.rt.com/russia/article/554497-dvigateli-ukraina-zamena

[Zementbomber]

And now - just think a little about the content of the phrase

for the needs of the fleet and helicopter fleet

Well, add to the heap the funny circumstance that part of the Klimovsk "import substitution" is supplied in the form of machine kits for assembly "known by whom" and "known from where." And remember - where all turbine blades and disks for this "replacement" are coming.
More questions?

[Sky strike fighter]

Quote: Zementbomber

Impossible. Corresponding The resolution of the Council of Ministers of the USSR does not provide for this. Well, you cannot yet close even your own domestic market TV3-117 and VK-2500 with the help of Klimov. Therefore, you have to show off in words - but carefully order and pay the Old Man to God.

Gone from the dependence on Ukraine for helicopter engines.

traditions of creating powerful, reliable, beautiful engines in Klimovo are still preserved.


Currently, the production program of the enterprise is noticeably expanding, and in recent years - at a particularly rapid pace. Today, mass production allows the company to produce up to 500 engines per year.

“We completely abandoned our dependence on the Ukrainian Motor Sich enterprise. According to the entire range of Klimov’s development and the projects that the company previously worked together with Ukraine, we are absolutely independent, ”says Vatagin. It was Motor Sich in the Soviet Union and Europe that for many years was the flagship of engine building. He created most of all engines for military, transport and civil aviation. But since 2014 (when the well-known events took place in Kiev), the volume of Russian orders for the company has decreased tenfold.


“At the moment, we do not see the future of Motor Sich. Once it was the flagship among the motor-building enterprises, the plant with the best equipment, which housed the production of the most massive engines. But time is running out. It is merciless. Equipment and technology become obsolete. The limited market and the political events that have taken place clearly have a detrimental effect on Motor Sich. Today it is far from the flagship and is not comparable with the Russian motor industry, ”said Alexander Vatagin, Executive Director of UEC Klimov.

https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/4026992.html

[Zementbomber]

“At the moment, we do not see the future of Motor Sich.

- ... and we continue to carefully and accurately purchase its products. On which

We are completely gone

, Og.
And Natakha Pechorina (who is "Diana Mikhailova") is a cool girl. To a certain extent, I was even her teacher (when she was still a beginner "military observer of Ukrinform"). - was on the CD. least. True - it is not so rude to work out "jeans" - I did not manage to convince and teach her.

[Non liberoid Russian]

Seriously ? Well, if you believe your fables, good luck)))

[Avior]

Did he have any kind of license?

[Sovetikus]

Quote: svp67

Well, if you can't take the motors to the manufacturer, you can also bring the "zarabitchan" with the "motor-sich" ... that's the solution to the problem

Then definitely no one helicopter will take off ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: svp67

Now explain to me why our UAC is silent?

Because of Antonov’s planes

[svp67]

Quote: Spade

Because of Antonov’s planes

And they have already cut off our An-124 flights ... And where does Poland come to Antonov?

[Zementbomber]

And where does Poland come to Antonov?

Coordinated position of the EU and NATO. So they decided the commercial business of oversized and superheavy VD and 224th LO - "to zero to zero".

[askort154]

svp67 ...And they have already cut off our An-124 flights ... And where does Poland come to Antonov?

They failed to do anything with "cutting off" on the An-124 flights. Okhly tried to "arrest" 5 planes in foreign airports, promoted it to "the whole world", but got a bummer. Russia has already completed all the documentation for the production and maintenance of the An-124 in Ulyanovsk. Now Ukraine has nothing to do with the An-124.

[svp67]

Quote: askort154

They did not succeed in "cutting off" the An-124 flights.

Alas, it turned out ... if the BTA still occasionally flies, then the civil, modernized sky of Europe is closed

[askort154]

svp67 ....Alas, it turned out ... if the BTA still occasionally flies, then the civil, modernized sky of Europe is closed

An-124 (Ruslan), as part of the Russian Aerospace Forces - 24 pcs. On the "wing" 13 + 2. (566 regiment and 224 LO)
In a / c "Volga Dnepr" - 12 pcs. An-124., Fly around the world without restrictions, and their full service and production is certified by the Aviastar-SP plant (Ulyanovsk) jointly with the Amtes company, which is part of the Volgl-Dnepr group.
(data as of 10.03.2020 g)

[Tusv]

Quote: Spade

Because of Antonov’s planes

Scrolling through the wiki.

It was founded as a research and development bureau at the Novosibirsk Aircraft Plant under the leadership of Oleg Antonov

Ukraine since 1952 does not pay us money. Arbitrariness

[Zementbomber]

Well - there were some teachers!

[Zementbomber]

Now explain to me why our UAC is silent? Wouldn't it be time to declare that KB Mil and KB Klimova did not give the green light to such work ... and even if it doesn’t solve much, but if something happens, they will be prohibited from using the same peacekeeping missions under the auspices of the UN.

Nothing depends on such a statement. Well, absolutely. Even at the UN. They will report that they will "take note", smile and continue to work.

[svp67]

Quote: Zementbomber

They will report that they will "take note", smile and work further.

And here it’s not ... if, God forbid, something happens to this aircraft in the sky, then there will be such a scandal that it’s easier not to mess with it. So that you are not quite right

[Zementbomber]

if, God forbid, something happens to this aircraft in the sky, then there will be such a scandal that it’s easier not to mess with it.

This is only if the "device" (or its modernization / repair / maintenance) - will be legally considered "counterfeit". And he - not will be considered so. Therefore - "the detachment will not notice the loss of a soldier."

[Tusv]

The Polish media write that today it is WZL No. 1 that is the only industrial enterprise in the country authorized to repair TV3-117 engines.

E. This. Did Klimov Design Bureau give the Poles such a license? And since when has the Hero City of Leningrad become Ukrainian?
Urgently recover from WZL No. 1 a penalty for unauthorized repairs and for activities that could result in Klimov Design Bureau's reputation costs. The claim of lards to five greens is fully justified within the framework of the legal framework of NATO

[Zementbomber]

Not received Since she betrayed not "Klimov". And MAP even in the days of "it" - and without any formal limiting conditions. Therefore, the courts of the EU countries will send you by the forest. Well, do not forget that for such greyhounds - to the weaker side - an indicative, sickly response usually arrives.

[sabakina]

Everything seems to be clear and understandable in the article. But did not understand this:

In addition, Poland had to ask permission from EU officials to repair its own Mi-8 helicopters. According to recent reports, the European Union gave approval after consultations.

Is it possible to repair our helicopters in the EU? France? Belgium? Holland? Albania?

[bouncyhunter]

Glory, hello!

Quote: sabakina

In the EU, it is possible to repair our helicopters

Many farts loudly many ...

[sabakina]

Be healthy Pasha! Today I will be twice as healthy! I don’t understand what commissions with permissions can be if there is nowhere to repair stupidly?

[bouncyhunter]

Zapadentsy know how to chat the situation to the point of absurdity.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: sabakina

what commissions with permissions can be if there is nowhere to repair stupidly anymore?

Glory, everything is classics - but to give the case a legitimate look and sensehe asked in a slavish voice ....

[Boratsagdiev]

Taki, others are also not deprived of this skill.

[hydrox]

They there in this EU are afraid to fainting to make independent decisions, therefore collegial (commission) decisions are developed there, but this kind of decisions also does not guarantee that the case will go through bureaucratic authorities (remember Nord Stream-2, which the EU needs much more than we !)

[Lopatov]

Quote: sabakina

Is it possible to repair our helicopters in the EU?

In the EU there is an opportunity to produce new ones. And not only an opportunity, an urgent need.

[Zementbomber]

Is it possible to repair our helicopters in the EU?

The same Poland. Germany. Czech Republic. Romania.

[vkd.dvk]

But what, can't we revoke the license for servicing our engines and helicopters?

[Zementbomber]

Arbitrarily - you cannot. Only in the event of a "material breach of the terms of the contract." And if the license was "free", then under no circumstances can you.

[Kurare]

Quote: Zementbomber

And if the license was "free" - then under no circumstances can you.

With the rate at which Motor Sich is degrading, this "license" can soon be hung over a toilet in a garage with a Motor Sich sign. This is exactly what will remain of the once glorified Soviet enterprise.

Russia does not need it, the West - even less. Nothing personal, just business and peermog.

[Zementbomber]

With the rate at which Motor Sich is degrading, this "license" can soon be hung over a toilet in a garage with a Motor Sich sign.

After the family of "eights" completely leaves the world park - yes, yes. But so far - and yet it is not even known when the serial production of these very "eights" will stop. But you dream, dream ...

[Kurare]

Quote: Zementbomber

After the family of "eights" completely leaves the world park - yes, yes.

The tendency to repair / modernize the same "eight" in the complexity of work. Motor Sich can only offer engine service, which is the exception rather than the rule. And for many, this is no longer enough. If we are talking about the new Mi-8/17, then there is generally an MS in flight. The VK-2500 is being installed on the new cars.

So, dreams have remained in the haunted era and have become a reality. Alas, politics has become a funeral team for the Ukrainian engine industry.

[Zementbomber]

The tendency to repair / modernize the same "eight" in the complexity of work.

First, this is still far from always. Especially for the "eights" of the first and second generations.
Secondly, for "complex" works, "MS" has a very reputable major partner in Ukraine - the Konotop "Aviakon".

Motor Sich can offer only engine service

For ten years now - how "not only".

If we are talking about the new Mi-8/17, then there is generally an MS in flight. On new cars put VK-2500.

Except for those that are exported. On such - "MS" ovskie TVadov still the greater part. By the way - "MC" produces VK-2500 too. Under an irrevocable full-free license. Moreover, some of them go to "Klimov" with machine sets - and there they become "urYa-urYa-we all won-import-substitution."

[Kurare]

Quote: Zementbomber

First, this is still far from always. Especially for the "eights" of the first and second generations.

I do not argue, but how many are left? And if you look at the title of this thread, then even up to the Polish Mi-8 MS is not allowed.

Quote: Zementbomber

Secondly, for "complex" works, "MS" has a very reputable major partner in Ukraine - the Konotop "Aviakon".

Well, if Milevtsy just for no reason extend the guarantee after an unlicensed service ... (sarcasm)

Quote: Zementbomber

Already ten years - as "not only".

And again, back to the topic of this thread. But the Poles are not alone.

Quote: Zementbomber

On such - "MS" ovskie TVadov still the greater part.

Yes this is true. But whether Milevts will prolong the airworthiness of these cars? The answer, I think, is already clear.

Quote: Zementbomber

Moreover, some of them go to "Klimov"

And the MS is getting harder and harder to deliver these engine kits to Russia. I don’t know for sure, but in my opinion this brook has almost dried up.

Quote: Zementbomber

"urYa-urYa-we all won-import by substitution"

Do not clown around. It seems we are talking about normal and interesting topics. And yet, yes, import substitution is underway. Slowly, yes. Sure - yes too.

[Zementbomber]

I do not argue, but how many are left?

You will be surprised - but most of the world park of "eights" and their "derivatives" are still "from the TV2-117 era."

Well, if Milevtsy just for no reason extend the guarantee after an unlicensed service ... (sarcasm)

What "sarcasm" is inappropriate. ARZ, officially fulfilling acc. work on the Soviet AT until 02.01.1992/XNUMX/XNUMX - do not need further confirmation of their competencies by the AT developer. And independently entitled to give and extend guarantees.

Yes this is true. But whether Milevts will prolong the airworthiness of these cars? The answer, I think, is already clear.

Indeed, it is clear. There will be. Because under different conditions, the foreign customer simply will not buy new turntables from Russian Helicopters.

And the MS is getting harder and harder to deliver these engine kits to Russia.

The humor is that so far "Klimov" simply cannot afford to refuse them.

Do not clown around. It seems we are talking about normal and interesting topics. And yet, yes, import substitution is underway. Slowly, yes. Sure - yes too.

That was the irony. Although rough, yes. In fact, even in Ukraine, no one expected that everything would be so "confident" with import substitution ... When CAST asked me about ten years ago to study the issue and make a forecast - I myself adhered to a much more optimistic assessment for you.

[Kurare]

TV2-117 is the hypostasis of "MS". But, I want to repeat, there is NO comprehensive service here!

Quote: Zementbomber

... do not need further confirmation of their competencies by the AT developer. And independently entitled to give and extend guarantees.

Right is one thing. Opportunities and competencies are completely different. I agree that the Soviet Union left too many a "right" to such work. Commercial conditions were not respected then, and after the collapse, everyone and everyone took on this "right". But, one thing is the guarantee from the manufacturer, and another - from the "third".

Quote: Zementbomber

Really - clear. Will be.

Some third organization does the service, brings a document for extension of guarantees to Milevians? Do you really think that they will sign this document?

Quote: Zementbomber

The humor is that so far "Klimov" simply cannot afford to refuse them.

For whom is humor, and for whom is a tragedy. And the real tragedy is for the MC.

Quote: Zementbomber

In fact, even in Ukraine, no one expected that everything would be so "confident" with import substitution ...

"What does it cost us factory to build "- this is to paraphrase. That is, if they wanted in Ukraine, they would have carried out import substitution 100 times faster! Be so kind, don’t tell my ... slippers. Did you find a speck, but the log in your own eye does not press?

[Zementbomber]

Right is one thing. Opportunities and competencies are completely different.

The same "Aviacon" has more than opportunities and competencies. For decades it was one of the best military helicopter ARZ of the Union. And now it remains among those in the "post-Soviet".

One thing is a guarantee from a manufacturer, and another - from a "third".

You will probably be surprised - but after repair at the ARZ, the guarantee is given by the ARZ itself. Is always. Sometimes - it is also confirmed by the manufacturer and developer warranties - but this is not necessary. But the guarantees of the latter, not confirmed by the ARZ guarantee, lose their force after repair.

For whom is humor, and for whom is a tragedy. And the real tragedy is for the MC.

The thing is that in the financial and production indicators of "MS" - there is no trace of any "tragedy" yet.

Some third organization does the service, brings a document for extension of guarantees to Milevians? Do you really think that they will sign this document?

I remind you - this is about new machines completed by Zaporizhzhya TVaD at the request of the Customer. Therefore, "R-Helicopters" simply have no other choice but to order "MileKamov": "Sign FFSE - yes at a trot!" Otherwise, the contract will be stupidly lost.

"What should we build a plant" - if to paraphrase. That is, if they wanted to in Ukraine, import substitution was carried out 100 times faster! Be so kind as not to tell my ... slippers. Found a speck, but the log in your own eye does not press?

"a beam in the eye" - presses only when you do not notice it. The very difficult situation of the military-industrial complex of Ukraine is well known to me. Incl. and the strength of the old job responsibilities. But I also know that you have there - far from a "speck in the eye". A - in some areas along the CD. at least - quite itself and "the situation of a well-fed priests."

[Kurare]

Quote: Zementbomber

For decades it was one of the best military helicopter ARZ of the Union. And now it remains among those in the "post-Soviet".

I agree with the first. With the second - doubts torment me especially because Aviakor does not have access to the original / certified spare parts.

Quote: Zementbomber

You will probably be surprised - but after repair at the ARZ, the guarantee is given by the ARZ itself.

I'll draw you such a "guarantee" myself. The Poles, for some reason, refused the services of the best ARZ Aviakor, with all their "guarantees". I can repeat again: the ARZ guarantee, especially not related to the manufacturer, is not a guarantee from the manufacturer!

Quote: Zementbomber

... there is no trace of "tragedy" yet.

You correctly wrote it - "bye".

Quote: Zementbomber

Therefore, "R-Helicopters" simply have no other choice but to order "MileKamov": "Sign FFSE - yes at a trot!"

You probably have a bad idea of ​​the commercial relationship between the manufacturer and the sub-supplier. "The tail doesn't wave the dog." With all due respect - this is nonsense!

Quote: Zementbomber

But I also know that you have there - far from a "speck in the eye".

Of course, there are problems, but they are being solved. Unlike Russia, Ukraine is just a degradation.

[Zementbomber]

I agree with the first. With the second - doubts torment me especially because Aviakor does not have access to the original / certified spare parts.

"Aviacoнa "." Aviacoр"- this is in Samara. And why is there" no access "? The" gasket companies "created to bypass the mutual pseudo-sanctions of Kiev and Moscow - function quite well for themselves.

: laughing I'll draw you such a "guarantee" myself. The Poles, for some reason, refused the services of the best ARZ Aviakor, with all their "guarantees". I can repeat again: the ARZ guarantee, especially not related to the manufacturer, is not a guarantee from the manufacturer!

You will not draw. They now require certification of a level not lower than "Veritas" for example. And much more.
CHSH, our Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze No. 2 of the Ministry of People's Defense - perfectly repairs and modernizes the Mi-8/17 without any guarantees or other authorization from the "corporate subjects" of R Helicopters.

You correctly wrote it - "bye".

Listen, this is 02.01 this year. - 28 years old! And it is all "bye". You yourself there in Russia is not funny with such "forecasts" ??

You probably have a bad idea of ​​the commercial relationship between the manufacturer and the sub-supplier. "The tail doesn't wave the dog." With all due respect - this is nonsense!

It's not about that. It is about the relationship between the Supplier and the Customer of the final product. In the course of which these Customers - bluntly impose on the supplier-"general" manufacturer the choice of a specific partner-sub-supplier of a particular product. Nothing unusual about this, by the way. It happens quite often not only in relation to sub-suppliers from Ukraine. The appearance of the avionics of the Indian Su-30 (including those supplied in a completely finished form) was written to a large extent under the dictation of the IAF.

Of course, there are problems, but they are being solved. Unlike Russia, Ukraine is just a degradation.

And therefore - the export of weapons and military equipment, missiles and ammunition, AI&C, as well as military works and services carried out by production, design and scientific organizations of Ukraine - already significantly exceeds gigabax per year. And it continues to grow rapidly (last year - + ~ by 20% compared to 2018).
"degradation", Oga ...

[Avior]

The only producer of TV3-117 is Motor Sich.
And who gave the Poles a license?

[askort154]

The reason is that Poland should always consult with the EU on military-technical procedures so as not to violate European antitrust laws in this area.

Arrogant "Panov", you did not live in the "Warsaw Pact", decided to change it to the EU and NATO. God marks rogue. What is the EU - the structure of NATO.
Who runs NATO is the United States. Is it possible that the United States will allow some Poland to carry out licensed maintenance and repair of Soviet military equipment, which is still a lot in Eastern Europe. The United States has its own defense industry, eager to develop the international market for the sale of its weapons. The earlier the soviet
weapons will disappear from Eastern Europe, the better for the US military-industrial complex.
Therefore, they hung over you the sword of Damocles - "European antitrust law". And this is not "kisses with passion" with Leonid.

[Tusv]

Quote: askort154

Who runs NATO is the United States. Is it possible that the USA will allow some Poland to carry out licensed maintenance and repair of Soviet military equipment

Speaking of birds. It was not such a funny case. At the first NATO exercises, Poland used the Soviet communications satellite. What was the scandal ... Excuse, and whose connection is stable, the task is completed and there is no need to pay. So there they lucidly explained. There are free NATO satellites pay 2% of GDP and use your health

[Zementbomber]

There are free NATO satellites pay 2% of GDP and use your health

Brad ...

[Zementbomber]

What is the EU - the structure of NATO.

In Russian pornographic fantasies, yes ...

[Pashhenko Nikolay]

In general, it’s purple where and how they will solve their problems. And not only with engines.

[Maki maki]

In other words, the article says that not only Russia, but also some new members of the NATO bloc suffered from the breakdown in cooperation ties

[Zementbomber]

Well?? One might think: in the police department "a step to the right - a step to the left" was not considered an "escape" ...

[Pvi1206]

Poland will not miss her ...

[Avior]

The author cleverly circumvented the issue of the factory - the manufacturer of these engines

refusal to send for repairs, for example, to Ukraine is not so much a Polish whim as a matter of agreements within the European Union.

And what kind of agreement prohibits sending engines to the manufacturer?

[Oyo Sarkazmi]

The EU is becoming more moronic than the USSR. Repair of their helicopters in their own country on their own - should ask permission of the European Commission. What if some Algerian wants to make money in France?

[Ovsigovets]

B - Bureaucracy

[vkd.dvk]

Quote: Zementbomber

Impossible. Corresponding The resolution of the Council of Ministers of the USSR does not provide for this. Well, you cannot yet close even your own domestic market TV3-117 and VK-2500 with the help of Klimov. Therefore, you have to show off in words - but carefully order and pay the Old Man to God.

In order to speak on an equal footing, fundamental documents must be recognized on an equal footing. What I mean? The Ukrainian side needs recognition of these orders of the Council of Ministers of the USSR. And, on this basis, recognize their right.
If they canceled everything, then there should be no conversation.

[Avior]

And they canceled?
And why recognize them?

[Zementbomber]

In order to speak on an equal footing, fundamental documents must be recognized on an equal footing. What I mean? The Ukrainian side needs recognition of these orders of the Council of Ministers of the USSR. And, on this basis, recognize their right.
If they canceled everything, then there should be no conversation.

So "everything is in automatic order" - not canceled even in the Baltic countries and in Georgia. Well - the successor to the Council of Ministers of the USSR or the superior authority regarding such a successor - may make changes, additions, accept a replacement document, etc.
In the "zero" I came across existing on the territory of Ukraine documents with the "header" of the joint venture of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) and the SNK of the USSR Dated, EMNIS, 1920s (!!) years.