Military Review

“Tanks are not afraid of mud”: about one discussion

42

The dissemination of information via the Internet and the emergence of many sources of this very information, which, to put it mildly, are not very competent in these matters, leads to the most incredible disputes and discussions in pseudoscientific circles. It is with such a discussion that I encountered quite recently. The problem of road wheels of tracked combat vehicles was discussed.


Moreover, judging by the replicas of the "specialists", the track rollers were of interest to the authors in connection with the hypothetical opportunity to meet Russian and Western on a European theater tanks. Moreover, this meeting should take place in the harsh conditions of autumn or spring impassability. In the open field, as it was during the Second World War.

Agree, it sounds quite exotic. However, having studied the composition of those discussing by geolocation, it became clear that the “experts” of Russia and Ukraine were arguing. Just one of those couch warriors who will do everything not to get into the army or to serve in the "distant Soviet years."

Remember the inscription “Tanks are not afraid of mud” that is often found on passenger cars? This was the argument. 

Honestly, the argument about which rollers are better is initially stupidity. Simply because the very concept of a large or small roller is not known to most. The opinion that "the more the better" has long been refuted by practice. It's simple, if the roller radius is equal to or greater than the ground clearance, then it is large. 

If anything is worth talking about, then this is not about the elements of the chassis of the tank, but about the suspension designs of tanks in historical development. But this is a global topic. Including tanks of many countries of the world. Probably from the very first tanks to modern versions of independent suspension.

There isn’t such a tank in the world that can’t "drive into a puddle" of bad mechvod


In the West, the video of testing the Soviet T-72 by the Swedish military is very popular. It is on the cross. I specifically showed this video to our officers. I repeat, they all from the very first shots said that the guy behind the levers of this tank had no idea about the work of the driver.

In the dispute with which I began the conversation, I have one argument in favor of the T-72. I asked a lot of specialists about the possibility of "shoeing" the T-64 and T-72 with an unprepared mechanized drive. My question was prompted by a fairly large number of abandoned T-64s in the Donbass. Abandoned without obvious combat damage.

Theoretically, the possibility of losing tracks by both tanks is admitted by many. However, we have almost seen such a unit. The commanders of tank companies and battalions with T-72s in service are not aware of this problem. A car can take off shoes only if it is blown up or in other combat damage. But even in this condition, the machine is easy to tow on track rollers.

But the T-64 is a finicky car in terms of chassis. In a tank track or in those conditions that “Internet experts” argued about, wet arable land or swampy soil, in short, on heavy soils, even in first gear, when turning, the risk of losing a caterpillar is quite high. If we add to this a slightly weakened caterpillar and a higher speed ... We will see exactly those cars that are often found in videos from Donbass today. Remember the inverted fenders.

But it is almost impossible to pull the "flabby" T-64 out of the battlefield or just from the landfill with heavy soil. The track roller trays sink into the ground above the balancers! 

In no case do I pretend to be absolutely correct in my own opinion. Moreover, I am sure that experienced tankers will find some inconsistencies between my conclusions and their own experience in operating tanks. This is normal. The truth is always somewhere nearby.

And the last one. They often write to me that “yesterday it was necessary to create something like that ...”. The following is the name of the military vehicles or weapons that are available in some army of the world. Moreover, the arguments in this case are quite doubtful. To be like them ...

Dear guardians for the power and strength of the Russian army, but didn’t you think that in this way we will return to the past? Again we want to catch up with someone. To make it worse. But I don’t want it to be any worse.

Firstly, I need to restore my hometown, build factories and sanatoriums. It is necessary to raise the salary of all. Retire to raise. I have a lot to do already yesterday. A game of catch-up will lead to the fact that everything that I need will be built longer or will never be done at all. Once we already wanted to overtake everyone.

Secondly, I do not want to be second. I want to be the first. The leader. Let the very “they” try to create “something similar” to mine. Let them catch up. We have shown our capabilities. We showed what “potential partners” still need to think of. So let them undergo the restoration of their own cities and resorts ...

And disputes about what and who is better will be constantly conducted. Simply because the number of "specialists" will grow. And real experts have answered most of the debated questions long ago ...
Author:
42 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. knn54
    knn54 April 27 2020 09: 56 New
    12
    I agree with the Author. The desire to catch up with someone as someone else indicates the inability to formulate their own goals and objectives.
    1. Alex1949
      Alex1949 April 27 2020 10: 27 New
      12
      But in my opinion you are wrong. In our fighting vehicles for a very long time there was no combat control system. Only a radio station and periscope surveillance devices. In this matter, they are very behind. In battle, whoever saw the enemy first and made precise aiming and fired on time, he won. Automated battle control systems allow tankers on distant approaches to see the whole picture of enemy targets, even before the start of the battle, automatically select the most dangerous target and automatically aim. The gunner does not need to look for anything at all. The computer itself does everything, up to loading. It remains only to press the shot button.
      Another example. We have not had a very long time, and now, probably, there are no anti-tank missiles that destroy tanks from above, where the thinnest armor is located. And what's wrong with that, we have to catch up with the American Javelin in this matter?
      And this is only a small part of the problems I have listed, where we are not ashamed to catch up, ashamed to fall behind!
      1. Amateur
        Amateur April 27 2020 12: 47 New
        19
        The computer itself does everything, up to loading.

        Negro Computer-Driven African American - A New Word in Cybernetics.!
      2. Protos
        Protos April 27 2020 15: 26 New
        -2
        Quote: Alex1949
        And in my opinion you are wrong. Is American Javelin in this matter?
        And this is only a small part of the problems I have listed, where we are not ashamed to catch up, ashamed to fall behind!

        ATGM "Kornet" could always hit BT in the upper projection yes
        He aimed at the excess, and then lowered the point down and the rocket made a slide!
      3. Alekseev
        Alekseev April 27 2020 15: 52 New
        11
        Quote: Alex1949
        Automated battle control systems allow tankers on distant approaches to see the whole picture of enemy targets, even before the start of the battle, automatically select the most dangerous target and automatically aim. The gunner does not need to look for anything at all.

        Could you describe in more detail the operation of such "automated battle control systems"? What kind of tankers are observing the whole picture "in oil" even before the start of the battle: the commander of a tank or battalion, and how do they do it?
        It is only desirable to describe not the style of the unforgettable J. Verne.
      4. vindigo
        vindigo April 27 2020 18: 10 New
        0
        Are you talking about a network-centric combat control system? They have recently appeared in the west.
      5. Tavrik
        Tavrik April 27 2020 20: 50 New
        -3
        In our fighting vehicles for a very long time there was no combat control system.

        And why was it not? And now no.
      6. bk316
        bk316 April 30 2020 13: 33 New
        +7
        The gunner does not need to look for anything at all. The computer does everything by itself

        Well, you are a dreamer .... No one has such systems. There is not even a term for such a BMS; there is a BMS;
        But there is no SMS so far. And it won’t be until there is a full-fledged AI on the battlefield.
        Think a little and tell me how the computer will distinguish our grenade launcher from the enemy?
        How to decide which of the same enemy tanks should be hit first?
        How do you guess that this convenient passage cannot be used because it is most likely mined?
  2. businessv
    businessv April 27 2020 10: 02 New
    +5
    Just one of those couch warriors who will do everything not to get into the army or to serve in the "distant Soviet years."
    Alexander, the article is good and the conclusions are correct, I always read your articles with pleasure, thanks for them, but what I did not expect from you is that you will use such cheap arguments, especially about the “distant Soviet years” - because cars, which are in question, it was then that they were created and exploited. Plyusanul of course, but the sediment is unpleasant. request
  3. Alekseev
    Alekseev April 27 2020 10: 08 New
    0
    The meaning of the article is completely understandable.
    As for the facts about the differences between the chassis of the T-64 and T-72, then everything is true.
    I agree with the author that, they say, passable cars are needed, no worse than those of the "partners".
    There is no doubt that in many media outlets, incompetent citizens "are making quite dubious arguments."
    What to discuss something?
  4. Cheerock
    Cheerock April 27 2020 10: 12 New
    +6
    The essence of the dispute is not very clear. A wheel of a larger diameter has a contact spot and a support patency is greater than a wheel of a smaller diameter - this is a classic. You can drown in a swamp, in addition to a swamp rover on pneumatics - this is also a classic. what
    1. prodi
      prodi April 27 2020 12: 49 New
      +1
      on tracks, the contact spot is important only in terms of wear of the wheel brace: a larger diameter and narrower wheel, will wear less and will provide an opportunity to develop greater speed; plus, there will be something there, with additional side protection; on the other hand, stick smaller rollers in diameter on the same side length (along the axes), you can
      1. Cheerock
        Cheerock April 28 2020 20: 53 New
        +3
        I’m not talking about tracks, but about who it’s convenient to evacuate across the field. It’s convenient for someone who has a higher passability, for wheels with a larger diameter - it is higher. But, the essence of the issue, as it turned out, was generally about - who is easier to develop)))
        1. prodi
          prodi April 29 2020 07: 11 New
          +1
          and the discharge of the caterpillar probably depends on the stiffness of the track on twisting, on the number and location of the ridges, their strength and the strength of the rollers. More small rollers should work better. Although, if you somehow get a sag of the lower part, then nothing will save
  5. svp67
    svp67 April 27 2020 10: 13 New
    13
    In tank ruts or in those conditions that were discussed by "Internet experts", wet arable land or marshy soil, in short, on heavy soils, even in first gear, the risk of losing a track is quite high when turning.
    Bullshit, in the entire history of his communication with this machine (T-64), something like that only once and then on sandy-stony soil on one of the turns the lower branch went inside ... At low speeds, it’s almost impossible to lose the track, at least I do not know such examples

    . If we add to this a slightly weakened caterpillar and a higher speed ...
    This can happen with any tank (t-64, t-72, t-80, t-90) ... the wave arising on the weakened tape of the caterpillar demolishes the fenders at once ... by the way with the old caterpillar of the t-72

    such a probability was higher, much higher, it was less severe than the one that is being established now "a, la t-80"

    Yes, and I do not agree with the poor training of the Swedish mech-vods, they quickly mastered the skill of controlling the T-72, and where they got stuck, well, forgive me, very few of our "aces" would have left, each machine has its own limit

    Although the T-80 has a higher "limit", the engine is more powerful there, the transmission and chassis are different.

    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U April 27 2020 17: 17 New
      +1
      A gusl with a parallel RMSh and on large rinks flies:
      https://youtu.be/f_SvM0Lq8G4
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 27 2020 17: 32 New
        +7
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        A gusl with a parallel RMSh and on large rinks flies:

        With a bad head and not so much can be broken, and here the height of the skating rink is not so important as its width, although in the video you suggested (https://youtu.be/f_SvM0Lq8G4) the Japanese proved that there are no barriers to the "samurai spirit" especially when " bad head "
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U April 27 2020 18: 15 New
          0
          Great, I’m so this video, with this particular little music, and could not insert. )))
        2. raif
          raif April 27 2020 18: 22 New
          0
          Thank you, comrade, we were pleased - I laughed heartily, and the music is suitable.
          while he looked, he remembered everything - bloated tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, the mat of the participants and the addresses where the advisers of all ranks and titles, broken sledgehammers and bent crowbars were sent ...
        3. andrewkor
          andrewkor April 28 2020 07: 32 New
          +1
          Still a fairy to help them from a famous joke
  6. novel66
    novel66 April 27 2020 10: 14 New
    +2
    And the debate about who is better and who will be constantly

    only war will judge ... it is better to argue until hoarseness
    1. a.hamster55
      a.hamster55 April 27 2020 11: 41 New
      0
      I agree that everyone has his own limit and mission. And as in the march ....- A heavy tank will not creep - A steel bird will fly there ...
      1. novel66
        novel66 April 27 2020 11: 48 New
        +2
        no, not that !!
  7. Amateur
    Amateur April 27 2020 10: 15 New
    +6
    My question was caused by a sufficiently large number of abandoned T-64s in the Donbass. Abandoned without obvious combat damage.

    And how many "Abandoned without obvious combat damage" T-55, T-72 were left on the battlefields by "dashing Arab tankers"? Colleagues from Israel will probably be able to write how many% of the IDF consisted of captured tanks.
    So it’s not the running gear, but the people who are sitting in these tanks.
    During WWII, Soviet tankers could sit in a tank with a broken chassis for many hours and beat the Fritz. Often until the last bullet and the last living person. But, unfortunately, there were those who, at the slightest breakdown, abandoned equipment. And it did not depend on the type of tank.
    1. a.hamster55
      a.hamster55 April 27 2020 15: 35 New
      -2
      But a trained crew is more valuable than a broken piece of iron. They sat and beat, only they perished by the whole crew.
      1. Amateur
        Amateur April 27 2020 15: 41 New
        +2
        Schaub, I was so smart before, like my Sarah after

        Blue Dream Sofa Expert
    2. max702
      max702 April 28 2020 10: 17 New
      0
      During the Second World War, the tank was a much larger fortress than it is now .. Then they knocked down the tank and if it didn’t have a powerful weapon, it would remain intact until the APPLIED infantry came up to it and burned the tank .. And now? As soon as the tank got up all this TARGET! And who will destroy it is difficult to predict .. It could be (we’ll exclude tanks) and ATGMs and RPGs and a helicopter, and BMP .. There were no such threats during the Second World War .. It is therefore more dangerous to remain in an immobilized car today than during the Second World War .. Then fought for days in immobilized cars, and now? ATGM will arrive from 5-6 km and that’s all. Strength and courage is very important by itself, but it’s necessary to understand the conditions of the battle have changed .. Roughly speaking, the sword is now much stronger than the shield, unlike during the Second World War ..
  8. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins April 27 2020 10: 17 New
    21
    To begin with, I would like to clarify in which troops the author served.
    It is time.
    I, as a mechanical driver, having mastered both the T-72 and T-64, did not NEVER observe the two years of service and did not drop the caterpillar itself, although I rode according to the standards. Even under the USSR.
    It’s easy to bend over the caterpillar shelf - even a tire from a passenger car clings with its tsevoks, which were enough on the tank tracks and voila! That is exactly what happened to my friend.
    Landing the tank on the belly also failed. Neither that nor that.
    It’s easier to tow the T72. Although all this is usually done on solid ground, and not on sourdough.
    You can kill everything. It would be a desire.
  9. hagrid
    hagrid April 27 2020 10: 25 New
    0
    judging by the frames of the T-72 tank biathlon, the gifted
  10. Alex1949
    Alex1949 April 27 2020 10: 34 New
    12
    I’m just one of those tankers from the USSR. He served on the T-34, T-44, retrained on the T-55 and T-62. T-72 only seen from afar. Throughout the entire service, there was not a single incident in our tank battalion that the tank lost the goose in the mud, although it was necessary to pull out tanks stuck in the wing liners because of the stupidity of tank commanders.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins April 27 2020 10: 48 New
      +2
      If I am not mistaken, it was easy to take off the BMP -1/2. I observed it once, and the starley took off his shoes, deciding to show "how to ride." The instructors explained this by the front arrangement of the leading rollers.
  11. Fitter65
    Fitter65 April 27 2020 11: 50 New
    +1
    I asked so many experts about opportunities to "break up" T-64 and T-72 unprepared mechanical drive

    In the distant, distant 1983, even before the "urgent", I came as a young tractor driver to the TT-4 tractor, the so-called "Tooth". The work is simple to drag the brought and sawn logs into packages or to feed them to the sawmill conveyor, literally on the second run, from the package to the conveyor, my tractor "wore out". A tank is not a tractor ... hi
  12. dgonni
    dgonni April 27 2020 11: 53 New
    +5
    Conversations for the weak 64ki hodovka went from the first 64x on which the new technology of a plane-parallel joint was honed. In fact, 64ka in the 80s did not reset the goose. According to the LMS it was a cut above 72ki. On record firing kicked out 64ki. For a soft and smooth ride. the stabilizer is easier to work out. On clay and peat bogs, 64ka takes 72nd. On stony better mover 72ki.
    Eighty something is average. Feels sharpened for high speeds.
    P.S. The 64ki caterpillar has less rolling power loss. Therefore, no matter how tagil puffed up, but still had to learn plane-parallel and put already on the T-90 and the modernized T-72!
  13. tank-master
    tank-master April 27 2020 12: 27 New
    +4
    ... Comparison of running .. tanks that were produced in the 70s.
    The T-64 (T-64BV object 447A) was last released in 1987 ... and after that Kharkov switched to the T-80 chassis (T-80UD object 478B). By the way, after that, N. Tagil began to put a similar track on the T-90 tanks (T-72 with the Irtysh fire control system with the T-80U and T-80UD).
    So what's the catch ... the fact that Ukraine uses tanks with a bad suspension? ... so they cannot use them with a good one either ... but who can ... they are not helpers.
    In cases of war between Russia and Krajina .... tanks will not help the Ukrainians .. they will throw them and run ...
    I am writing from Kharkov ... and I know .. that when the time comes we will be able to say our word in Russian tank building.
    In 2019, it was just the centuries of the creation of the BTV and it was just created in Kharkov.
  14. Free wind
    Free wind April 27 2020 12: 51 New
    0
    Well answered and answered, and then what to say. Well, what can I say then, if not about weapons, well, I want to talk about it. And you do the same, I don't want you to write an article, why write? This is in childhood, chickens peck, walk, finds one imp, pecks, no one looks, he grabs this garbage, runs into the group, with a mad "pee-pee", then runs away, everyone looks, well, he paid attention, but someone rushed to catch up
  15. Rostislav
    Rostislav April 27 2020 14: 28 New
    +4
    And disputes about who and who is better will be conducted constantly. Just because the number of “specialists” will grow.

    It's like that. According to the 14th Murphy's law, "The amount of intelligence on the planet is constant," while the population is growing.
  16. a.hamster55
    a.hamster55 April 27 2020 18: 38 New
    +4
    There are two troubles in Russia ... I know what to do with one - more asphalt, gravel, sand, heavy equipment and a team of professionals. But what to do with roads?
    1. agond
      agond April 27 2020 22: 01 New
      0
      Asphalt is not the most suitable material for paving,
      As for the caterpillars, everything is made of steel, as always, when will they start to be made of something else, such as "carbon rubber"?
  17. EvilLion
    EvilLion April 28 2020 08: 58 New
    0
    In military affairs there are no goals other than achieving excellence, otherwise no economic achievements of a citizen will be needed.
  18. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 April 28 2020 09: 03 New
    +4
    A strange piece of some kind of anecdotal discussion, endlessly and without beginning. What is it all about? About the patency of tanks? And where is the argument, criticism, analysis? And then what will happen - another piece of unknown what? Nonsense.
    1. Kuz
      Kuz 5 May 2020 17: 57 New
      0
      People shared their experiences.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 6 May 2020 09: 18 New
        0
        Experience of WHAT? Internet doctors, in which the subject of discussion is lost, no one remembers where who started, everyone is chatting who is in the forest who for firewood? I assure you, we will do without describing such an "experience" Everyone can get it in kind at any time.