How did they know everything? Mongolian intelligence on the eve of the invasion of Russia


Enlightened sovereigns and wise generals moved and won, accomplished feats, surpassing all others because they knew everything in advance.

Sun Tzu, The Art of War (no later than the XNUMXth century BC)


The Mongolian Empire


The phenomenon of this state is so unusual, grandiose and large-scale that it is difficult to comprehend by the philistine consciousness, and this in many cases gives rise to amateurs stories even doubts about the very fact of its existence. And in fact, how is it that suddenly a huge state, founded by wild and illiterate nomads, suddenly appears out of nowhere, does it exist for a short period of time and disappears without a trace, leaving nothing behind? This does not happen.

In fact, it’s not “out of nowhere”, and not “without a trace”, and not so wild and illiterate. But in order to understand this, you need to plunge deeply into the study of this issue, and not try, using "logic and common sense" without relying on any knowledge, to deny the indisputable, scientifically proven facts, replacing them with irresponsible fantasies of morally unscrupulous authors.

This article does not intend to put an end to the philistine skepticism regarding the existence of the Mongol Empire - a state stretching from the banana-lemon jungle of Southeast Asia to the Novgorod cranberry swamps, from the Pacific coast to the Carpathian mountains, a state in which a XNUMXth-century traveler. it could take a whole year to cross it from one end to the other. The purpose of the article is to dispel some skeptics' doubts about a single issue, namely the question of where the Mongols “knew everything” from.

Indeed, upon careful consideration of many aspects of the Mongolian military campaign conducted by them against the ancient Russian state, it seems that not stranger nomads from the distant Mongolian steppe came to Russia, but their own, local, well acquainted with the theater of operations, its natural conditions, geographical and climatic nuances, possessing information about the political situation, the military-economic potential of the enemy, as well as all other information necessary for successful planning and management tions of military operations in enemy territory. The answer to the question of how the Mongols really knew all this, we will try to get as part of this study.

Information sources


The main sources on which we will rely in the framework of this study will, of course, be the Old Russian annals and written documents left to us by contemporaries of the events described. First of all, this is “The Secret Legend of the Mongols”, recorded, according to modern studies, in 1240 in the Mongolian language, and the reports of the Catholic monks Giovanni Plano Carpini and Julian of Hungary.

Of course, when working on this study, the author also used the works of professional historians: V.V. Kargalova, E.L. Nazarova, A.P. Smirnova, R.P. Khrapachevsky, D.G. Khrustaleva, H.-D. Erenzhen and others.

XIII Century Intelligence


What was intelligence in the XNUMXth century? in general and intelligence of Genghis Khan's empire in particular?

All five ranks of spies work, and one cannot know their paths. This is called an incomprehensible secret. They are a treasure for the emperor ... Therefore, for the army there is nothing closer than spies; there are no big rewards than for spies; there are no more secret cases than spyware.

These words of Sun Tzu exhaustively determine the complexity that any author who is going to write about intelligence faces, regardless of what time he writes, if it is not about tactical intelligence during the conduct of hostilities, but about political or strategic intelligence. But in this case we are interested in it.

Of course, in the XIII century. not a single state (except, possibly, China) had political or strategic intelligence as such: with its staff, hierarchy of subordination, structure, personnel, etc. The collection of information about the enemy was not carried out by professional intelligence officers specially trained and trained for this purpose, but mostly by random people: merchants, religious missionaries, and, of course, diplomats and employees of embassy missions. All these were people standing quite high in the social hierarchy of society, because a scout (anyone), except for certain personal qualities, such as high intelligence, charm, sociability, ability and willingness to take risks, should have many qualities that are completely uncharacteristic of commoners. He must be a member of the circles that possess the information of interest to him, must have at his disposal certain (and often considerable) means to bribe or reward informants, and, not to mention elementary literacy, he must (preferably) speak the language of the country in which he works (or have a translator with you).

Perhaps, the circle of such persons in the Middle Ages was limited to nobles, merchants and representatives of the clergy. It was they, and only they, who had the opportunity to conduct intelligence activities.

In the Mongol Empire of Genghis Khan, it was strategic intelligence that always received special attention. History has preserved for us even several names of persons who carried out such activities. First of all, this is a certain Muslim merchant named Jafar-Khoja, one of the closest associates of Genghis Khan. The Yuan-shi Chronicle, the official story of the Chinese imperial Yuan Dynasty, which, as you know, was of Mongolian origin, tells us about other Muslim merchants who performed the diplomatic and reconnaissance missions of Genghis Khan: a certain Asan (probably Hassan), a native of Turkestan, Danishmed Hajib , Mahmoud al-Khwarizmi. The latter, by the way, was “recruited” by the ruler of Khorezm and supplied him with disinformation regarding the forces and intentions of Genghis Khan. In general, Muslim merchants, with whom Genghis Khan always tried to maintain the best relations based on mutual benefit, probably played a key role in the system of collecting information about opponents of the Mongol Empire. Often they were entrusted with missions of not only intelligence, but also diplomatic nature.

In order to coordinate efforts to collect information about the enemy and its systematization, Genghis Khan created a permanent analytical body in both wartime and peacetime - a prototype of what we now call the General Staff. There were simply no analogues of such a structure in other states of that time. Of course, the functions of this “General Staff” included collecting and analyzing information not only about neighboring states, but also about the state of affairs in its own empire, that is, it combined the functions of modern ministries of the interior and the ministry of defense, but taking into account the level of development of state institutions time in the world in general it was a huge step forward. The employees of this "general staff" had the rank of "yurtaji", and the agents who collected the information, that is, the scouts themselves, were called "angins". In fact, Genghis Khan came close to creating a personnel intelligence service.

In Europe, the creation of such an organization will not come very soon.

Introduction


The first clash of the Mongol Empire and Rus occurred in 1223, when the battle on the river. Kalka.

Actually, the campaign of the two Mongolian tumens under the leadership of Jebe and Subedai was itself a deep strategic intelligence with the aim of collecting information about the natural conditions of the steppes of the Northern Black Sea Coast, as well as about the people who inhabited this area, and indeed any information about new, previously unknown territories .

Before the battle, the command of the Mongol expeditionary force tried to resort to their favorite trick, with the help of which they repeatedly managed to split the coalitions of their opponents. Ambassadors were sent to the Russian princes, convincing them not to provide military assistance to the Polovtsy. The Russians simply killed the first group of such ambassadors, possibly due to the fact that the Mongols used local wanderers as ambassadors, who knew the Polovtsian language, which the Mongols were also familiar with, and who could convey to the Russians the meaning of the message that Jebe and Subeday. Brodniks, that is, tramps, robbers, the forerunner of the late Cossacks, were not considered by the Russian princes to be “handshakes,” so negotiations with them did not work. These same "brodniks" subsequently participated in the battle against the Russians on the side of the Mongols.

It would seem, what else reason after the execution of Russian "ambassadors" did the Mongols need to open military operations? However, they send another embassy to the Russians, probably more representative (according to some researchers, it could be Arab Muslim merchants detained by the Mongols), which they never did before or after. The reason for such perseverance of the Mongols may be precisely their desire to obtain intelligence information about the number and composition of the coalition of Russian princes, the quality of their weapons. Still, this was the first contact of two civilizations, previously completely unfamiliar with each other: in 1223, the borders of the Mongol Empire were still far east of Russia and the opponents knew literally nothing about each other. Having received from their second embassy information about the possible size and, most importantly, the composition of the Russian army, the Mongols realized that they would have to deal with heavy cavalry similar to the knight’s (they were familiar with such an opponent from the wars in Persia), and were able to obtained information to make a battle plan suitable for this particular case.

Having won the battle, the Mongols for a long time pursued the defeated retreating Russian rati, far invading the territory of Russia itself. It will be appropriate here to recall the notes of Plano Carpini, compiled by him more than twenty years after the events described.

“And also many other secrets of the aforementioned emperor, we learned through those who arrived with other leaders, through many Russians and Hungarians who knew both Latin and French, through Russian clergy and others who were with them, some staying thirty years during the war and during other acts of the Tatars, all their acts were known, since they knew the language and were inseparable with them for some twenty, some ten years, some more, some less; from them we could scout everything, and they themselves told us everything willingly, sometimes even without question, because they knew our desire. ”

It is quite possible that the “Russian clergy” mentioned by Karpini appeared in the capital of the Mongol Empire precisely after the raid of Jebe and Subedei, these could be Russians who were captured after the Battle of Kalka, and there is no doubt that there were many of them. If the term "clerics" is understood exclusively as individuals of the clergy, then such persons could be captured by the Mongols in the course of the prosecution of the defeated Russian military in the territory of Russia proper. Considering that the raid itself was conceived as “reconnaissance in battle,” as well as the Mongol’s special attentive and tolerant attitude towards religion, including the religion of conquered or planned to conquer peoples, this assumption does not seem improbable at all. It was from these prisoners captured by the Mongols in 1223 that the Great Khan could receive the first information about Russia and the Russians.

Mongols ... in Smolensk


After the defeat of the Russians on Kalka, the Mongols went towards the Middle Volga, where they were defeated by the troops of the Volga Bulgaria, after which they returned to the steppes and disappeared for some time, contact with them was lost.

The first appearance of the Mongols in the field of vision of Russian chroniclers after the battle on the river. Kalka is celebrated in 1229. This year, the Mongols came close to the borders of the Volga Bulgaria and began to disturb its borders with their raids. The main part of the forces of the Mongol Empire at that time was engaged in the conquest of southern China, in the west there were forces only of the Jochi ulus proper under the command of Khan Batu, and even those, in turn, were busy continuing the war with the Polovtsy (Kipchaks), who resisted stubbornly and steadfastly. During this period, only small military contingents could set up against Bulgaria, for which there were no serious tasks to conquer new territories, therefore, despite the fact that the Mongols managed to expand the territory of their influence on the interfluve of the Volga and Yaika rivers (the Urals) over the next three years ) in their lower reaches, the southern borders of the Volga Bulgaria remained insurmountable for them.

We in the context of this study will be interested in the following fact.

Not later than 1229 a tripartite trade agreement was concluded between Smolensk, Riga and Gotland, one of the lists of which contains an interesting article.

“And on which courtyards are the Germans or the guest of the Germans, do not put the prince in that courtyard of either the Tatar or any other ambassador.”

It is this list that most researchers date back to just 1229.

The following conclusions and assumptions can be drawn from this short article.

Shortly before the drafting of the treaty in 1229, the Tatar embassy was present in Smolensk (that is how the Russian chronicles called the Mongols) the embassy, ​​which the Smolensk prince (probably it was Mstislav Davydovich) placed on the German farmstead. What happened to this embassy, ​​which entailed the need to make an appropriate registry entry in the trade agreement, we can only speculate. Probably, it could be some kind of quarrel, or simply the Mongolian ambassadors with their presence something greatly constrained the Germans in Smolensk. It is impossible to talk about this with any certainty. However, the fact of the presence of the Mongolian embassy in Smolensk, as well as the fact that the arrival of similar embassies from the Mongol empire was completely allowed by both the Smolensk prince and Riga residents with the Scots, is not in doubt.

It should also be noted that not one of the Russian chronicles of the facts of the Mongolian embassies in Russia until 1237, literally on the eve of the invasion, fixes, from which we can conclude that such facts were not recorded by chronicles at all, and, therefore, the assumption that that there could be many such embassies has certain grounds.

What kind of embassy could this be?

Historians know the Mongolian, and not only the Mongolian custom of notifying all neighboring countries of the death of their ruler and the ascension to the throne of his successor. Genghis Khan died in 1227, and it would be at least strange if the new Khan Ugedei had not followed this custom and sent his embassies to all neighboring states. The version that the indicated embassy had one of its goals to notify the Russian princes of the death of Genghis Khan and the election of Ogedei the Great Khan is indirectly confirmed by the fact that it was 1229 that the death of Genghis Khan was marked by some Russian chronicles.

We do not know whether the path of this embassy ended in Smolensk and in general what its fate was. However, the very fact of its presence in Smolensk, on the extreme western borders of Russia, allows us to assume that before the Smolensk the Mongols could visit Vladimir or Suzdal with their mission (depending on where Grand Duke Yuri Vsevolodovich was at that time), if it followed the shortest path through the Volga Bulgaria, or, possibly, Chernigov and Kiev, if moving through the steppes. Such a route, however, is unlikely, since at that time there was a war with the Polovtsi in the steppe and the path through the steppe was very unsafe.

If the Mongolian embassy had not “inherited” in Smolensk, we would not have known anything about its fact, but now we can very likely assume that similar embassies (or the same, Smolensk) visited Vladimir and in Kiev, and in Novgorod, and in other cities - centers of Russian lands. And on our part, it would be completely strange to assume that these embassies had exclusively diplomatic tasks that did not include intelligence.

What information could such embassies collect? Passing through Russian lands, visiting Russian cities, staying in them or near them for the night, talking with local princes and boyars, even with smerds, you can collect almost any information about the country in which you are. To learn trade routes, to examine military fortifications, to get acquainted with the armament of a potential enemy, and having spent quite a long time in the country, you can also familiarize yourself with climatic conditions, with the way and the rhythm of life of the taxable population, which is also of great importance for planning and carrying out a subsequent invasion. If the Mongols did just that before, waging or preparing wars with China or Khorezm, they are unlikely to have changed their rules in relation to Russia. The same embassies, without a doubt, collected information about the political situation in the country, the genealogy of the rulers (to whom the Mongols always paid special attention) and other aspects no less important for planning a subsequent war.

All this information, of course, was collected and analyzed at the rate of both Batu Khan and Ugadei himself.

Mongolian diplomatic activity in Europe


We also have one direct evidence of the high diplomatic activity of the Mongols both in Russia and in Europe. In a letter intercepted by Prince Yuri Vsevolodovich sent by Khan Batu in 1237 to the Hungarian King Bela IV and transmitted by the Prince to the Hungarian monk Julian (we will dwell on this letter in more detail in the next article), we see this phrase:

I am Khan, the ambassador of the king of heaven, to whom he gave power over the earth to exalt the obeying me and suppress those who are opposing, I wonder at you, the king (exactly like that, with neglect. - Auth.) Hungarian: although I sent ambassadors to you for the thirtieth time you will not send one of them back to me, and you will not send me your ambassadors or letters.

For the present study, one fragment is significant from the contents of this letter: Khan Batu reproaches the Hungarian king for not answering his messages, although he already "Thirtieth time" sends an embassy to him. Even if we assume that the number “thirty” here has figurative significance, as we say “one hundred” (for example, “I have already told you a hundred times”), it nevertheless follows from this letter that at least several Batu embassies in Hungary already sent. And again, it is not entirely clear why in this case he should have been limited exclusively to communication with the Hungarian king, while forgetting about the king, for example, Polish, numerous Russian princes and other hierarchs of Central and Eastern Europe?

Considering that embassy activity always and always went hand in hand with intelligence, Batu, and probably Ugadei, was probably well informed about European affairs, while Europeans began to establish diplomatic relations with Mongolian empire, sending its emissaries only after the end of the Western campaign of the Mongols, the defeat of Russia, Poland and Hungary.

The following fact also gives an idea of ​​the level of preparation of the Mongols for the Western, or, as they called it, the “Kipchak” campaign, as well as the level of readiness of Russia and Europe to repel Mongol aggression.

We know that the Mongols did not have their own written language, therefore, for correspondence, including diplomatic, he used Uyghur writing, applying it to his own language. No one was able to translate the letter intercepted from the Mongolian ambassador at the court of Prince Yuri. Failed to do this and Julian, to whom the prince handed this letter for delivery to the addressee. Here is what Julian himself writes about this:

Therefore, he (meaning Khan Batu. - Auth.) Sent ambassadors to the King of Hungary. Passing through the land of Suzdal, they were captured by the Prince of Suzdal, and he took the letter sent to the King of Hungary; I even saw the ambassadors themselves with satellites, given to me by data.
The above letter, given to me by the Prince of Suzdal, I brought to the King of Hungary. The letter is written in pagan letters in the Tatar language. Therefore, the king found many who could read it, but did not find anyone who understood.

Apparently, Yuri Vsevolodovich had no illusions about the immediate prospects for relations with the Mongols - he expected an inevitable war. Therefore, when the Mongolian embassy tried to follow through his lands to the Hungarian king Belé IV, he ordered the embassy to be detained, and the letter of Khan Batu addressed to Belé IV opened and tried to read. However, here he faced one insurmountable difficulty - the letter was written in a language completely incomprehensible to him.

An interesting situation: war is about to break out, and neither in Russia, nor in Hungary can one find a person who can read a letter written in the language of the enemy. A stark contrast against this background is the story of the same Julian, recorded by him after returning from his first trip, which took place in 1235-1236.

In this country of Hungarians, the said brother found the Tatars and the ambassador of the Tatar leader, who knew Hungarian, Russian, Kuman (Polovtsian), Teutonic, Saracen and Tatar ...

That is, the "ambassador of the Tatar leader" knows the languages ​​of all potential opponents of the Mongol Empire in the foreseeable future already in 1236. It is unlikely that he was the only one and by chance he came across Julian "in the country of Hungarians". Most likely, among the Mongolian diplomatic corps, this state of affairs was the norm. It seems that this says a lot about the level of preparation of the parties (Europe and Asia) for the war.

To be continued ...
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka April 23 2020 04: 36 New
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    Michael my respect !!!
    The long-awaited work !!!! Thank you very much!!! Liked!!!
    Sincerely, Your Vlad!
    1. Bar1 April 23 2020 10: 56 New
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      consider another historical source that describes the origin and location of peoples during the time of the Mongols / Mongols. This source is the Scythian story of the historian 17v Andrei Lyzlov.
      Consider the publication of 1776. The origin of some peoples.

      -Who were these Scythians?
      The Scythians are the Mongal people, who later changed their name to Tartars.


      -Where did the tartars live?
      Tartars lived between the Volga and Yaik. the fact that the Mongols / Tatars lived in Mongolia and conquered China Lyzlov does not say.



      - Who were the Bulgarians who also lived on the Volga?
      Bulgarians are the Volgars and were tribesmen of the Vandal and Gotta peoples.



      - Who were the Polovtsy?
      The Polovtsians had a mixed language with Polish, Volozhsky and Russian.



      So Lyzlov does not know anything about Mongolia, about the capture of China, but he clearly says that the Scythians and Tartars / Tatars / Mongols are one people. Therefore, "studies" of modern historians claiming that the Scythians are Persians, and then Alans, and then Ossetians- it is a rupture of history and a deliberate misrepresentation of the people.
      1. awdrgy April 23 2020 14: 41 New
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        “Genetics came to the conclusion that the Tatars of the Crimea, Volga region and Siberia do not have a common“ ancestral component ”, which means there is no common gene pool. Ethnologists and historians from Tatarstan, who claim that genetics is not connected with ethnicity, have painfully taken it. one of the authors of the study, Oleg Balanovsky, told BUSINESS Online that he was studying not the "soul" of the people, but his genetic "body", and also complained that Tatarstan was not funding the announced project to study the gene pool of the nation with fanfare.

        ... Scientists did not find a common ancestor among the Volga, Siberian and Crimean Tatars, as well as their kinship with each other

        A group of scientists led by the head of the laboratory of human population genetics of the medical genetic research center, Professor Elena Balanovskaya, did not find a common ancestor among the Volga, Siberian and Crimean Tatars, as well as their kinship with each other - this is the main conclusion made by the authors of an article published in the journal “Moscow Herald” University. " The study was conducted from 2006 to 2014 based on the analysis of 50 SNP markers of the Y chromosome. A total of 955 DNA samples were taken among unrelated men, all the ancestors of which were at least three generations referred to as the "ethno-territorial group of Tatars" and were born in the area of ​​this group. “Genetic portraits of the Crimean, Volga and Siberian Tatars revealed a significant diversity of the Tatars gene pool in each region, the absence of any dominant Y-chromosome line and significant differences between all three genetic portraits,” the authors of the article write.

        So, among Crimean Tatars, genetics revealed a high proportion of southern and a small proportion of eastern ones in their origin and modern distribution of haplogroups of the Y chromosome. Another part falls on the pan-Eurasian haplogroup. Therefore, scientists conclude that "the genetic portrait of the Crimean Tatars is given by the predominant contribution of the Mediterranean and Near-Asian lines with a small proportion of the eastern haplogroups of the Y chromosome."

        In turn, the gene pool of the Volga Tatars, according to researchers, is less diverse on the Y chromosome. At the same time, two haplogroups were found in 49% of the DNAs studied: the first of them is characteristic of almost the entire western half of the Eurasian continent, but it is most often found in populations of Eastern Europe, and the second stretches from west to east and from north to south of the mainland. At the same time, the authors of the article note, the combination of these haplogroups is characteristic not only for the Tatars of the Volga region, but also for other populations of the Volga-East region and the East European plain. In addition, a much smaller portion - 23% - of the Volga Tatars is covered by the Mediterranean and Near Asian haplogroups - those that are characteristic of Crimean Tatars. And the proportion of eastern haplogroups of the Y chromosome is very small - less than 5%. “Thus, the genetic portrait of the Volga Tatars is determined by the high contribution of haplogroups, the most frequent in Eastern Europe and the Urals, a significantly smaller share of southern variants and a very weak East Eurasian trace,” geneticists emphasize in the article.


        Finally, the haplogroups are most pronounced in the gene pool of the Siberian Tatars, which allows us to state that “the main components of the gene pool of the Siberian Tatars are associated with Siberia and the northern strip of Eurasia. "The southwestern genetic trace is characteristic only of certain subethnoses of the Siberian Tatars - the Yalutor and Bukharas."



        In any case, the main conclusion of geneticists is that the Tatars of the Crimea, Volga region and Siberia do not have a common "ancestral component", which means that there is no "common origin from their once single" Tatar gene pool ". Moreover, the article notes that all three studied groups are genetically far from both the Central Asian cluster and the Mongols. “This result does not give rise to hypotheses about the origin of the gene pool of all Tatars from either the Mongols or the Central Asian populations as a whole,” the researchers assure, immediately emphasizing that the gene pool of the Volga Tatars is 55 times closer to the Bashkirs than to the Mongols. ”
        However, the material from the newspaper is widely discussed in scientific circles (it’s not a problem to find scientific articles on the net). Even more interesting is the study of Russians (where there are also “conditionally Mongolian” haplogroups within the margin of error. This actually confirms the almost irrefutable data of the remarkable Russian historian Andrei Lyzlov. In general then this can put an end to the question "On the Mongols in Russia"
        1. Diviz 13 June 2020 00: 30 New
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          Let's complement this information on the Tarim mummies. That we are all discussing the western part. Let's talk about Kalash. Although now if you find their photo or video then in my opinion they have been assimilated. But nobody wants to conduct genetic research about them. And why, but because the question of where the dog is buried should be rhetorical.
      2. Bar1 April 23 2020 16: 26 New
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        from the same source.



        something incomprehensible describes Lyzlov.
        During the battle of the Tatars with the Poles, the author says that a Tatar ran out with a banner with a great brady, which was teasing and that the stingy and stench smoke was sent to the Poles and they were defeated.
        Isn’t Lyzlov talking about guns? This is in the time of Batu 1237.
        1. awdrgy April 23 2020 16: 45 New
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          I think this is some kind of weapon of psychological impact of those times. People probably thought that they were trying to infect them with some kind of poison or disease. Who knows? And how was the question technically implemented in general? Not enough information
      3. Kote Pan Kokhanka April 23 2020 20: 51 New
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        Good evening Timur!
        -Who were these Scythians?
        The Scythians are the Mongal people, who later changed their name to Tartars.

        And why not the Slavs, Germany or Basurman?
        So the picture rises before my eyes! A line of Scythians with braziers, in front of a yurt, where the elections for the new name of the Tatra clan are held !!! Directly by direct secret ballot !!!!!!!! And at the exit sits the Amazon and rivets at the exit of the plague stamp in the passport "new tartars"!
        - Who were the Bulgarians who also lived on the Volga?
        Bulgarians are the Volgars and were tribesmen of the Vandal and Gotta peoples.

        And the black Bulgars whom Allah, St. Paul or the theory of probability settled on the Black Sea !!!? There were who! Witches, blisters or ......
        Trite, the Volga being quite a long river, on the banks of which many peoples lived! Nobody confused tverchan with bulgars!
        About Polovets, generally silent.
        - Who were the Polovtsy?
        The Polovtsians had a mixed language with Polish, Volozhsky and Russian.

        The question is, what kind of Volga language? If the whole ecumene is learning Bulgarian!
        Sincerely, but until tomorrow, your Kote!
      4. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 23: 11 New
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        Quote: Bar1
        So Lyzlov does not know anything about Mongolia

        It is rather his misfortune, not his fault. He had no sources at hand, no opportunity to study history as a science. Own experience and favorite source of any newcomer - "one grandmother said."
        If I'm wrong, answer me what Lyzlov was based on when writing the Scythian History, which served as his source.
        1. Bar1 April 24 2020 01: 12 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Own experience and favorite source of any newcomer - "one grandmother said."


          So you have already brought Zharnikova, Pyzhikov, now Lyzlov, to the Novokhronozholites. So what doesn’t fit into the concept of OI is obstructed. Everything is clear with you. And our regiment arrived.

          Quote: Trilobite Master
          If I'm wrong, answer me what Lyzlov was based on when writing the Scythian History, which served as his source.

          is it not fate to read a book?
          Sources from Lyzlov, Diador Siculus / Sicilian, Zhigimont Herberstein, Boter, Alexander Gvagnin, Matthew Striykovsky and some more.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka April 24 2020 04: 36 New
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            Quote: Bar1
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Own experience and favorite source of any newcomer - "one grandmother said."


            So you have already brought Zharnikova, Pyzhikov, now Lyzlov, to the Novokhronozholites. So what doesn’t fit into the concept of OI is obstructed. Everything is clear with you. And our regiment arrived.

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            If I'm wrong, answer me what Lyzlov was based on when writing the Scythian History, which served as his source.

            is it not fate to read a book?
            Sources from Lyzlov, Diador Siculus / Sicilian, Zhigimont Herberstein, Boter, Alexander Gvagnin, Matthew Striykovsky and some more.

            Timur, what if "for garlic"?
            In Lykhov, not links to the cited Authors, but copyright squeezes or their texts for the sake of their version!
            You made the same in the first comment, when, in search of the Tatars-Mongolian Fatherland of the 13th century, you quoted a quote from the 17th century!
            1. Bar1 April 24 2020 14: 14 New
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              Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Lykhov’s, not references to the cited Authors,


              I don't know anything about Lykhov, I'm sorry ...
      5. Modun April 24 2020 05: 24 New
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        Do you understand what you wrote?
      6. Sergey79 April 24 2020 08: 25 New
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        You can completely agree. He also read Lyzlov with great interest. I also recommend Tizengauzen on this topic (Arabic sources). Unfortunately, there are few such historians. Basically, they unreasonably turn the Tatars into Mongols ...
      7. Andrey Krasnoyarsky April 28 2020 10: 02 New
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        The work of Andrei Lyzlov cannot be considered a source on the history of ancient Russia. Lyzlov - amateur historian, his work "Scythian History" he created mainly on the basis of Polish, Lithuanian and even Italian authors. Being a professional translator (but not a historian!), He knew foreign languages ​​well. But the Russian annals used little. Foreign works were filled with frank fiction and nonsense regarding Russian history. Lyzlov simply compiled the translated books, giving the facts an arbitrary interpretation. Therefore, the book of Lyzlov remained only a monument of historical thought in the pre-scientific period, none of professional historians have been using its fables since the end of the 18th century.
  2. svp67 April 23 2020 05: 55 New
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    Thanks to the author, as the topic is very interesting and still poorly disclosed. Indeed, the awareness of the Tatar-Mongol, at the time of the attack on Russia in 1237, is simply amazing. They knew the number of detachments in the principalities, they knew about the political situation in Russia, the location of the fodder and other supplies, the ways of movement ... All this allowed them, with fairly small forces, quickly moving to defeat the troops of the Russian principalities to seize and subjugate territories. One thing I can say is that the author, paying attention to the actions of the embassies of the Mongols, missed the question of using merchants and travelers to collect intelligence. I also believe that the capture and study of China's experience in organizing such activities served as the cornerstone that allowed them to build their intelligence service.
    1. Caretaker April 23 2020 06: 23 New
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      Quote: svp67
      ... I also believe that the capture and study of China's experience in organizing such activities served as the cornerstone that allowed them to build their intelligence service ...

      Afanasy Nikitin’s "Walking Over Three Seas" can be considered as an example of where "unprepared" people can get to, how much information to collect and how many languages ​​to learn.
      1. svp67 April 23 2020 06: 27 New
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        Quote: Caretaker
        where can an "unprepared" person get, how much information can be collected and how many languages ​​can be learned.

        This is not enough, there must be a service that must collect, systematize and analyze all this information.
        1. Caretaker April 23 2020 06: 44 New
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          Quote: svp67
          Quote: Caretaker
          where can an "unprepared" person get, how much information can be collected and how many languages ​​can be learned.

          This is not enough, there must be a service that must collect, systematize and analyze all this information.

          "Service" was with all the rulers. The structure and composition depended on the duration of the dynasty and the size of the subject territory.
          1. svp67 April 23 2020 08: 36 New
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            Quote: Caretaker
            The structure and composition depended on the duration of the dynasty and the size of the subject territory.

            And what could Genghis Khan and Genghisides have without borrowing?
            1. Caretaker April 23 2020 13: 22 New
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              Quote: svp67
              And what could Genghis Khan and Genghisides have without borrowing?

              Perhaps borrowed from the Chinese and Central Asian states. The Mongols borrowed a lot of things, including guides from conquered peoples to advance on the territory of their opponents. However, all fairly large tribal or state associations did this.
              In any group of warriors, specialization takes place depending on the abilities and skills. The larger the "group", the more numerous and qualified specialists.
        2. knn54 April 23 2020 08: 35 New
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          According to one colleague (osnaz GRU) and a great connoisseur of the history of intelligence, according to merchants and peddlers / roving musicians.
          Well, bribery of a high-ranking official, especially offended by something, was practiced from ancient times.
          As for the analogies, the intelligence of the Venetian Republic was no less effective.
          whose achievements are sometimes credited with "papal".
          The Tatar-Mongols were greatly helped by the fragmentation of China, and the fragmentation of Russia. Yes, and among the Khorezmians there was "confusion and reeling."
          Thank you very much. We look forward to continuing.
        3. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 11: 32 New
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          Quote: svp67
          there should be a service that should collect, systematize and analyze all this information

          And the Mongols had it, and constantly acting, both in war and in peace. The article mentions this.
          1. Pane Kohanku April 23 2020 12: 41 New
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            The article mentions this.

            Hello hello hi
            I will try to expand my opinion about the article.
            1. A very good syllable. Beautiful, sophisticated, but easy to read and well remembered. No emotional excesses, personal opinion or extra humor - which is generally difficult to do with personal writing. what
            2. An interesting analysis based on facts. The work has been done and put together.
            In fact, it’s really good, exactly what historical articleprofessionally written. hi
            But in order to understand this, you need to plunge deeply into the study of this issue, and not try, using "logic and common sense" without relying on any knowledge, to deny the indisputable, scientifically proven facts, replacing them with irresponsible fantasies of morally unscrupulous authors.

            Colleagues, I do not want to offend any of you, and God forbid me to offend the site administration. But I want to note that this article is a cut above all the tales about pseudo-history and other superethnoses that are printed on our website. The author of the article not only deservedly bears the title of one of the best commentators on the site, but also writes very worthily. With respect, Nicholai. soldier
            PS
            Having received from their second embassy information about the possible size and, most importantly, the composition of the Russian army, the Mongols realized that they would have to deal with heavy cavalry similar to the knight’s (they were familiar with such an opponent from the wars in Persia)

            Consonant with the articles of V.O. Shpakovsky about "The Knights of Shahnameh."
            1. svp67 April 23 2020 16: 53 New
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              Quote: Pan Kohanku
              Consonant with the articles of V.O. Shpakovsky about "The Knights of Shahnameh."

              Quote: Pan Kohanku
              (they were familiar with such an opponent from the wars in Persia)

              And more recently, this expeditionary force defeated the armies of the Georgian principalities, where such cavalry was enough.
              1. Pane Kohanku April 23 2020 17: 07 New
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                And more recently, this expeditionary force defeated the armies of the Georgian principalities, where such cavalry was enough.

                Sergei, this did not know, although he remembered that they were marching to the Polovtsy through the Caucasus. Thank! hi
      2. Esoteric April 24 2020 08: 38 New
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        About Athanasius Nikitin. With him, the creators of the new chronology clearly established. He spoke and wrote in many languages, hence the conclusion that the population of Russia was bilingual. But they miss the mentality of the ancient inhabitant of Russia. The countries are correct, divine, pure, unclouded. And in Basurman countries, you can’t even write in God's language, otherwise you will become the same "filthy", "two-headed man."
        In such reasoning, I do not know if they are correct.
        But in ancient China, I do not believe, even kill smile And in the ancient Mongols the same. I believe that the conquerors came from near. From the great steppe, and they have nothing to do with the Mongols.
    2. bubalik April 23 2020 08: 26 New
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      missed the issue of using merchants and travelers to collect intelligence

      ,,, well, the one who the author pointed out this possibility.
      ,,, engaged in the collection of information about the enemy ,,,
      ,,, but mostly random people: merchants, religious missionaries, and, of course, diplomats, employees of embassy missions
    3. novel66 April 23 2020 08: 41 New
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      it smacks of delirium .... the great Mongol empire ... from which then not a rumor ... the nomads trained in European, now also the intelligence of the General Staff, is not worse ?? hey gentlemen, are we really talking about shepherds ?? and if we make the assumption that we are dealing with a civil strife, everything somehow somehow immediately falls into place ... give the Mongols peace already
      1. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 11: 37 New
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        Quote: novel xnumx
        .the great Mongol empire ... from which then neither hearing nor spirit

        In China, little is known about the empire of Charlemagne. And they can also say that about her "neither to the ears, nor to the spirit." Just need to be interested, read, study the subject - you will be "and hearing and spirit." And so - I don’t know anything and don’t want to know - also, of course, the position, but somehow unconvincing.
        1. Esoteric April 23 2020 13: 42 New
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          Not a supporter of Fomenko. I think his research in history is nonsense. But still. For example, China.
          The beginning of the XNUMXrd century AD: The Roman Empire ceases to exist in civil wars. The time has come for the "soldier emperors."
          In the same years in China ... in the internecine wars, the Han empire perishes, "illiterate, morally decomposed soldiers came to power."
          Roman Empire: in the middle of the XNUMXrd century AD power in Rome passes to a relative of the emperor of Caracalla, Julia Mesa, whose rule is called "bloody". In the end, they kill her.
          In those same years in China ... the wife of one of the emperors, "energetic and ferocious," came to power. Rules, spilling blood to the right and left. In the end, they kill her.
          The beginning of the XNUMXth century AD: The Roman Empire is divided into Eastern and Western. In those same years in China, the Jin empire was divided into two parts - Eastern and Western.
          The Roman Empire is fighting with the Huns. China in those years - with the Hunnu.
          V century AD: The Western Roman Empire was conquered by the Germans and the Huns.
          Chinese Western Liang ... conquered by the Huns. And in Rome, and in China on the throne at this time, "a very young emperor."
          Somewhere they lie. And there are suspicions that in China.
          1. sevryuk April 23 2020 22: 03 New
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            That is yes. It was also noted in the chronologization of the development of civilizations A. Toynbee.
          2. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 23: 19 New
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            Quote: Ezoterik
            Somewhere they lie. And there are suspicions that in China.

            Suppose there are some similarities. Where and in what they are not? If you wish, you can find similarities between, for example, the Scottish royal dynasty and the Japanese imperial. I have not tried it, but I'm sure it will work out. In this case, desire determines everything.
            Having found certain similarities, start looking for differences. You see - there are many more than similarities.
            1. Mihaylov April 24 2020 09: 49 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              If you wish, you can find similarities between, for example, the Scottish royal dynasty and the Japanese imperial. I have not tried it, but I'm sure it will work out.

              Will definitely work out. The teacher at the university said that she had given students the task of comparing the Constitution of Muravyov and Russian Truth (meaning Pestel, of course) and many quite successfully compared the Constitution of Muravyov with Russian Truth for 11 centuries. There are no barriers to an "inquiring mind."
          3. Lunic April 28 2020 16: 12 New
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            Yeah, the Chinese already did not disdain copying other people's techno .... History
        2. Esoteric April 24 2020 08: 51 New
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          Well, here again, Zheng He's fleet. Those ships that are presented in the illustrations are probably only suitable for coastal navigation. Having gone into the ocean, they simply go to the bottom. Well, these are not ocean ships, everything is different, from sailing weapons to the “length to width” ratio. Well, they can’t walk in the fresh wind.
          Viking Drakkar can, easily, be a magnificent ship, where everything is as it should. But these ..
    4. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 11: 31 New
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      Quote: svp67
      missed the issue of using merchants and travelers to collect intelligence

      In relation to Russia, there is no such data. In Yuan-shi, there is a lot of information about the use by the Mongols of merchants as scouts in preparing for the invasion of China, it is even noted that Genghis Khan always specially established relations with Muslim merchants. As for Russia, I did not find any mention of merchants as scouts. This, however, does not mean that they were not used. We also know about the Mongolian embassies only from indirect sources.
      1. Caretaker April 23 2020 12: 48 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        As for Russia, I did not find any mention of merchants as scouts. This, however, does not mean that they were not used. We also know about the Mongolian embassies only from indirect sources.

        Merchants, prisoners, dynastic marriages, hired warriors, etc.
        Unfortunately, the sources were not preserved, because after the concentration of documents in Moscow, there were several "disasters".
      2. awdrgy April 23 2020 14: 16 New
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        "Yuan-Shi is one of the 24 officially recognized official histories of China, telling about the Yuan dynasty. The haste to compile, then the need for new additional work and new editing of the Yuan Shi, led to the fact that there are frequent mistakes in the text , omissions and distortions, as well as duplication of entire sections. However, in the Yuan Shi messages, often with distorted transcriptions of foreign and barbarian names of places and places for the Chinese, with frequent rearrangements of events and a distorted chronology, they still look at ling documents of the era of Genghis Khan and his successors, which the hardworking compilers (!!! my edit) chronicles managed to get wherever possible - including during a risky expedition to hostile Mongolia. "(Wikipedia)"
        "Yuan Shi" is filled with errors, especially regarding the Genghis Khan era, and omissions - for example, twice in its text there is a biography of Subedai, and there are no biographies of Batu and Subedai's associate - Zhebe. Weak awareness of Yuan Shi about the period from Genghis Khan to Khubilai is noted by all specialists in Yuan: domestic - E.I. Kychanov [16, p.147], Chinese - Qian Daxin and Li Sichun. The latter, a specialist in the historiography of Yuan, wrote: “Yuan Shi” was not completely deducted due to the fact that the Chinese scholars who made it did not know the Mongolian language, and due to the fact that Messrs. Sun and Wang, who carried out a common edition her, deteriorated vision in her declining years. There are no such dynastic stories with errors and inaccuracies as “Yuan Shi, written in less than a year” [10, p. 28]. In view of the foregoing, we must consider the degree of reliability of the Yuan Shi news regarding the first Mongolian kaans, up to Khubilai .
        In "Yuan Shi" there is no direct date of Genghis Khan's birth, it is derived indirectly - through his age at the time of death. The data on this in her first juan “Taizu” (“The Great Ancestor”) is extremely lana: “In the fall of the 7th month [year], the 19th [day] fell ill ... before the death of [Genghis], turning to others said. .. Having finished his speech, he rested, life expectancy [was] - 66 [years] "[35, cz. 1 p.25]. Since the case took place in 1227, the Yuan Shi calculation gives birth to Genghis Khan in 1162 (66 years of life according to the Chinese account or 65 years from the date of birth). It is impossible to determine unequivocally where the life span of Genghis Khan came from, but it seems likely that they made a choice between different, contradictory dates that were at their disposal. So, in the essay "Zhogeng lu" by the Yuan historian Tao Zong-i (1320 - 1399), written in 1366, this figure appears, but in the encyclopedia "Sho-fu" (between 1350 and 1366). there is the text "Men-da bei-lu" ("Full description of the Mongol-Tatars") by Zhao Hun, giving a completely different dating - 73 or 72 years "On the dates of the life of Genghis Khan R Khrapachevsky
        It is also worth noting the following things-1) "In particular, at the beginning of the 2005th century, the Chinese historian Ke Shao-min supplemented and corrected a lot on the basis of additional sources in YSH, his" Xin Yuan Shi "(" A New History of the [Dynasty] Yuan ”) was even approved by a special decree of the President of the Republic of China as an official dynastic chronicle (by the way, this is generally the last case of an “official dynastic history” in China). Ke Shao-ming, as a rule, does not indicate their sources. Nevertheless, this work is of great importance as a reference tool when using the information of the school of law and has become a kind of application and addition to the actual "Yuan Shi." Genghis Khan military power. M. AST: LUX. 2 Khrapachevsky R.P. 3) The course taken by the Chinese leadership to position itself as a world power with a corresponding history 150) The relative "lateness" (4 years) of writing 2) "The significance of SUS is still important because it is through it to the late Mongolian and Tibetan historiography information about the first Mongol khans came to light.This circumstance leads to the fact that in many cases, especially in questions of chronology, it is necessary to carefully approach the news of the Mongolian and Tibetan sources of the XVII-XVIII centuries.That is, there is always a chance that their source m was SJ - the criterion may be a comparison with TIM, in which there are few dates and therefore their "refinement" on the basis of SJ can be dubious. Dates of SJ should be used provided that they are compared with more reliable (in terms of chronology) sources - for example, Rashid ad -Dinom There is also the problem of the inconsistency of a number of materials by SSC co-workers - they sometimes double 2005, the names of the same people, places, non-Chinese titles and posts are constantly written differently (by different characters) in different sections of SJ. On the one hand, this interferes with the perception of information, but on the other, it opens up opportunities for isolating and criticizing the primary sources of the youth school, and hence their reconstruction. "Military power of Genghis Khan. M. AST: LUX. XNUMX Khrapachevsky R. P. My opinion-Using this source in the question "On the Mongols in Russia" I consider controversial
        1. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 23: 27 New
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          Quote: awdrgy
          The use of this source in the question "On the Mongols in Russia" I consider controversial

          There are no consistent historical sources, and if there were, I would be the first (well, not the first, of course smile ) would cry out that this is most likely a fake, rewritten to order. Everything cannot be in color, it doesn’t, ask any professional investigator. Yuan-shi as a source is very good. It is not only necessary to blindly believe, it is necessary to verify, and if the verified information is confirmed, then there is more confidence in unique ones.
          Khrapachevsky, with all my unreasonable respect for him, seems to be too categorical.
      3. svp67 April 23 2020 16: 59 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        As for Russia, I did not find any mention of merchants as scouts.

        There is no doubt that they were. Even entering into an alliance with the "brodniks" can talk about this. There are many different versions of who this is and why they were named that way, but I am of the opinion that these were people who controlled the “fords and transports,” a sort of robber-voluntary artel of barge haulers, where there was no princely power. By the way, it’s a very convenient disposition and to take a tribute for transportation and rob in case of which provide the merchant with protection, and in accordance with the caravans of merchants
        1. Pane Kohanku April 23 2020 17: 12 New
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          By the way, it’s a very convenient disposition and to take a tribute for transportation and rob in case of which provide the merchant with protection, and in accordance with the caravans of merchants

          Just a business! "With a kind word and a gun you will achieve much more than just a kind word ..." (Al Capone). wink
          fords

          Well, in general, indeed, only such an analogy begs itself. Perhaps Michael and Edward will have a different opinion? hi
          1. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 23: 31 New
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            Quote: Pan Kohanku
            Perhaps Michael and Edward will have a different opinion?

            Perhaps I’m ready to agree. Free "artels" armed and ready for both defense and attack men. Where it is more profitable to rob - rob, where to earn - earn. Such could not have happened at that time.
    5. ccsr April 23 2020 12: 14 New
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      Quote: svp67
      All this allowed them, with fairly small forces, quickly moving to defeat the troops of the Russian principalities to seize and subjugate the territory.

      In my opinion, this was not so much connected with the created strategic intelligence of the Mongols, as the author is trying to convince us, but with developed tactical and operational intelligence, which, due to their great mobility, could carry out reconnaissance raids over long distances and therefore always had fresh and reliable information. about enemy troops. It is difficult to imagine at the scale of those territories that the Mongolian ambassadors could quickly convey to their supreme ruler all the changes of a domestic and interstate character, because by the time such information was received and following our borders, all this could have fundamentally changed due to the same civil strife.
      Quote: svp67
      I also believe that the capture and study of China's experience in organizing such activities served as the cornerstone that allowed them to build their intelligence service.

      It is quite possible, but there are no documentary traces of creating such a strategic structure, as I understand it, and the author indirectly reports this:
      . Almost Genghis Khan close approached the creation of a personnel intelligence service.

      I’m not a historian, and I can’t handle the details of that period, but in my opinion all the successes of the Mongolian troops were connected not so much with the conduct of some complex intelligence activities of a strategic level, but with the fact that they had good operational intelligence and quickly calculated enemy weakness in different areas. Given their high maneuverability, this gave them the necessary advantage in battles against any enemy, and in my opinion this was the main reason for their victories. Although this is just my personal opinion, based on the study of the Great Patriotic War, where it was precisely the successes of operational intelligence that allowed the Germans to find weak spots in our defense and quickly crush our troops even without significant numerical superiority.
      1. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 23: 38 New
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        I wrote about strategic intelligence. It all starts with her. Specific routes from point “A” to point “B”, the current location of enemy units, the number of garrisons in cities at the time the besiegers approach, etc. - the thing is completely different. Strategic intelligence - information about cities, their number, size and population, climate, political situation, dynastic ties, economic basis, climate, the ability to feed the invading army, the armed forces - their quantity, quality, etc.
        Specific operational and tactical tasks - of course, but this is already in the course of hostilities.
        1. ccsr April 24 2020 10: 27 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Strategic intelligence - information about cities, their number, size and population, climate, political situation, dynastic ties, economic basis, climate, the ability to feed the invading army, the armed forces - their quantity, quality, etc.

          I do not dispute the role of ambassadors and traders as scouts, informants and cartographers of past centuries, but I think their role in the victory of the Mongol forces over our ancestors is greatly exaggerated. In the First World War, we had a huge amount of strategic information about all our opponents, but the intelligence data that carried out Cossack patrols or plastunas turned out to be decisive for victory.
          But most importantly, military cavalry is the “eyes and ears” of army formations and associations. As the researchers noted the role of cavalry in the war: "Intelligence - ... is the main task of the cavalry, is ..." the daily bread of the cavalry. Intelligence is the eyes and ears of command; to have no intelligence means to go blindly. Berngardi before the last war (that is, 1914 - 18. - A.O.) put it this way: “The future war will begin with a clash of reconnaissance cavalry,” and Rauch says that: “To scout means to fight” [Batorsky M. Service cavalry. M., 1925. S. 92].

          https://topwar.ru/118666-poslednyaya-voyna-samogo-molodogo-kazachego-voyska-imperii-astrahanskoe-kazachestvo-na-frontah-pervoy-mirovoy-chast-1.html
          It is clear that the Mongolian horse mastered this art much better than our sedentary ancestors, and therefore they had advantages in all battles. The techniques that they used most likely formed the basis for the actions of our scouts many centuries later:
          The tactical form of solving many tasks (and above all intelligence) in the hands of Cossack commanders was the Cossack patrol (patrol) —that is, the sent out (“ejected”) in the right direction and with the corresponding tasks from the Cossack equestrian unit (group) of various numbers ( from several people to several dozen people).

          https://topwar.ru/118666-poslednyaya-voyna-samogo-molodogo-kazachego-voyska-imperii-astrahanskoe-kazachestvo-na-frontah-pervoy-mirovoy-chast-1.html
        2. E_V_N 1 May 2020 21: 31 New
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          How intelligence was conducted in the Slavic states is well described in Pushkin’s work in "The Tale of Tsar Saltan." The prince met the merchants and asked where they swam, what they sold, what they brought from there, how the people lived in distant lands. And the "general headquarters" was the boyar’s thought.
          And it makes no sense to invent "special spies" and "analytical departments" in Mongolia or China.
          And about the whole Mongolian theory, take a map, find northern China-Mongolia, and draw a path from there let's say to Smolensk for even 100 horse army with food supply points and feed for horses. And I think a bunch of questions you will immediately disappear.
    6. Esoteric April 24 2020 08: 29 New
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      But how could they crank it all up? All the same, this is a medieval society, where distrust of foreigners is simply enormous. Well, and to those who look completely different, I think twice. If the Europeans organized the collection of data and intelligence, this is one thing; they do not differ in appearance from the population of Russia. They have been known for a long time, they have been trading with them for a long time. But the nomads, not Polovtsy, have known the same for a long time, and they do not differ much in appearance either. But the Mongols? This is not clear to me.
  3. Catfish April 23 2020 06: 10 New
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    Michael, good morning! hi
    As a young man, I read (from Mother’s feed) Vasily Yan’s trilogy and thought that I knew almost everything about the Mongols. You completely broke up my self-confidence, for which thanks. smile I really could not have imagined that the "illiterate nomads" had such a powerful strategic intelligence. And here is the irony of fate that remains of a powerful state, beside the monument, monstrous in its absurdity, whose photo you placed at the beginning of the article.
    And yet this phrase amused me:
    Therefore, the king found many who could read it, but did not find anyone who understood.

    If I ever thought of doing writing work, I would certainly stick it with an epigraph somewhere.
    Thanks again. Health and success in everything. good
    1. tihonmarine April 23 2020 08: 39 New
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      Quote: Sea Cat
      As a young man, I read (from Mother’s feed) Vasily Yan’s trilogy and thought that I knew almost everything about the Mongols.

      We probably all read Vasily Yan as a child and also believed in everything that was written, and only later began to realize that it was just an affair that had nothing to do with history. But there were very few purely historical ones to understand the whole essence of the "Mongol-Tatar yoke." Thanks to the author.
    2. Esoteric April 23 2020 11: 16 New
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      Well, about Jan’s trilogy. There is an episode there about the death of Evpatiy Kolovrat. They stood on a hillock and beat them with stones from stone-throwing machines. Utter nonsense. Our ancestors were not idiots. The stone-thrower is not a machine gun, it is enough to move a dozen meters to the side, and you will have to redirect the bulky structure.
      Can you imagine professional wars standing on a hill, and voluntarily waiting for a hail of stones on yourself? Nonsense. And the stone-thrower transported by oxen, in winter, on impassability, is even more nonsense.
      1. Catfish April 23 2020 11: 38 New
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        And the stone-thrower transported by oxen, in winter, on impassability, is even more nonsense.

        Well, the Mongols also carried them on themselves, and did not build on the spot, and nothing, there were no complaints.

        Can you imagine professional wars standing on a hill, and voluntarily waiting for a hail of stones on yourself? Nonsense.

        For the Mongols I will not say, not a great special for that era. But in later times, there was this type of construction, the caret was called. So, the soldiers stood in this square under a hail of bullets and cores, and at the same time repelled the attacks of infantry and cavalry. Not always, the truth was able to do it.
        We drink for you, Fuzzy-Wozzie, for Sudan, where is your home home!
        You were a dark heathen, but a first-class fighter,
        Because you, Fuzzy-Woozzie, with your head like a stack in the yard,
        Black-minded tramp, broke through the British square.
        request
        1. Esoteric April 23 2020 11: 50 New
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          Well, then bullets and cores, and not stones flying rather slowly, visible from far away. Which incidentally leads to the idea of ​​shelling the army of Evpathy precisely with cores, through vices, or guns. If this of course was the case.
          As for the drawings of ancient offensive and defensive structures, my engineering education simply "cries out" Well, they shouldn't work, it's unrealistic. Not all of course. But sometimes such "pearls" come across that it’s easy to shrug. Good to you !!
          In no case do I want to offend anyone with my comments, I express my opinion. Maybe it is wrong.
          1. Catfish April 23 2020 11: 59 New
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            As for the drawings of ancient offensive and defensive structures, my engineering education simply "cries" Well, they should not work ...

            Yes, here you are right, sometimes it comes across ... But, unfortunately, there is nothing at hand from the “pearls” that would be worth laying out. And so, of course, it would be interesting to go over the models of some "inventors".
            And all the best to you! smile drinks
        2. Esoteric April 23 2020 11: 54 New
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          I love Kipling the same! Thank you for the verse quoted!
        3. Pane Kohanku April 23 2020 12: 57 New
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          Well, the Mongols also carried them on themselves

          I read somewhere that the Mongols from town to town were dragging still fat men. Which often played a role and traction force, and went on an attack in front of the Mongol.
          1. Korsar4 April 23 2020 13: 18 New
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            Even the special designation of prisoners who were driven to attack is “hashar”.
            About this, both Kalashnikov and Ian are mentioned.
            1. Pane Kohanku April 23 2020 13: 21 New
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              Even the special designation of prisoners who were driven to attack is “hashar”.

              I forgot exactly this designation word, Sergey. Thank you for reminding me. drinks unfortunately, the fate of civilians in war is always terrible. And here - "human shields."
        4. Severomor April 24 2020 00: 09 New
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          Quote: Sea Cat
          Well, the Mongols also carried them on themselves, and did not build on the spot, and nothing, there were no complaints.

          And stones, stones, too, were carried on themselves, or they were picked out from the frozen ground (well, yes, they burned fires, heated the ground)?
          And yes, the stones somehow need to be selected according to caliber)))
          1. Catfish April 24 2020 00: 18 New
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            Read all the comments carefully and don’t have to ask ... "children's" questions.
            Well, the Mongols also carried them on themselves
            I read somewhere that the Mongols from town to town were dragging still fat men. Which often played a role and traction, and went on the attack in front of the Mongol

            Even the special designation of prisoners who were driven to attack is “hashar”.
            About this, both Kalashnikov and Ian are mentioned.
            smile
      2. Mihaylov April 23 2020 12: 08 New
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        Quote: Ezoterik
        about the death of Evpatiy Kolovrat. They stood on a hillock and beat them with stones from stone-throwing machines. Utter nonsense.

        So the "Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu" - the 16th century, may be the 15th, so the degree of reliability of this source, especially regarding such details, is mildly unlikely to be high.
      3. Caretaker April 23 2020 12: 58 New
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        Quote: Ezoterik
        Well, about Jan’s trilogy. There is an episode there about the death of Evpatiy Kolovrat. They stood on a hillock and beat them with stones from stone-throwing machines. Utter nonsense. Our ancestors were not idiots. The stone-thrower is not a machine gun, it is enough to move a dozen meters to the side, and you will have to redirect the bulky structure.
        If we assume that the top of the "hillock" was protected by carts or a stockade, then it is quite possible to use "heavy" weapons. Yes, and a fairly dense structure of several hundred people covered with shields, will not run back and forth.
      4. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 23: 43 New
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        Quote: Ezoterik
        Well, about Jan’s trilogy.

        Ian is still a writer, not a scientist. The writer fantasizes, he can. Scientifically criticizing Yan, Balashov, Pikul is the same as trying to offend a child. And to believe them in everything is the same as being that very child. smile
    3. Esoteric April 23 2020 12: 06 New
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      For you! Favorite verse of this poet.
      1. Catfish April 23 2020 12: 13 New
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        Hello! Thank you Dmitry. smile
  4. Caretaker April 23 2020 06: 15 New
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    But in order to understand this, you need to plunge deeply into the study of this issue, and not try, using "logic and common sense" without relying on any knowledge, to deny the indisputable, scientifically proven facts, replacing them with irresponsible fantasies of morally unscrupulous authors.

    What facts listed in the article contradict logic and common sense?
    1. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 08: 30 New
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      Quote: Caretaker
      What facts listed in the article contradict logic and common sense?

      Links to outright fakes for example. It seems to be not very logical, but with common sense it didn’t lie nearby.
      1. rich April 23 2020 08: 37 New
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        After the defeat of the Russians on Kalka, the Mongols went towards the Middle Volga, where they were defeated by the troops of the Volga Bulgaria, and then returned to the steppe
        The first appearance of the Mongols in the field of vision of Russian chroniclers after the battle on the river. Kalka is celebrated in 1229. This year, the Mongols came close to the borders of the Volga Bulgaria and began to disturb its borders with their raids. Despite the fact that the Mongols over the next three years managed to expand their influence on the interfluve of the Volga and Yaik (Ural) rivers in their lower reaches, the southern borders Volga Bulgaria remained insurmountable for them.

        Here you have the commonly used expression - "Mongolotars"
        Then the Tatars piled heavily to the Mongols.
        1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 10: 37 New
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          God be with you, then where are the Tatars in the Middle Volga? There are Bulgars, and even then as part of this pack of tribes - and they had tribal division to the last - not all even Türks.

          There were no Tatars even in the Urals, neither in the Urals, nor in the Trans-Urals. Solid Ugric.

          The migration of the Tatars there and there is already the second half of the 13th century, not earlier.

          In Russia, the Mongol princes walked casually. But Bulgaria was destroyed with all love, seriously.

          The last to stay was Burtas, now - Zolotoryovskoe settlement. Gateway to Vladimirsko-Suzdaoskvy Rus.

          Google what is there and how. The defenders understood that there was no place to wait for help, and there would be no mercy. That's why they kept to the last, where Kozelsk was there. They stayed until the first cold weather, and shot down all the deadlines.

          As a result, Batu forbade even to plunder this unfortunate city, the deadlines were tight.

          So it lies underground, filled with fallen soldiers in full armor and with arms.

          I had to dig out most of the major cities of the Volga Bulgaria at that time, nowhere is this. The dead are robbed, and lie either in group graves, or indoors and in a Muslim corpse.

          And so, what kind of Russian city ceased to exist after the Mongols walked along it? Ryazan? So it was restored elsewhere.

          And at the Bulgars, even Bilyar was wiped off the face of the earth, and this is the largest city of its time. Several times larger than Kiev, which at that time was twice as large as Paris.

          The Bulgars have other millionaires (in our country, the “millionaire” is a city where the central fortified part - km per km, in total - a million square meters) - is spread to dust, and in the majority place there is a ban on settling under pain of death, especially in the south of the present Tatarstan The territory above them was mastered only in the 16th century, the Tatars from the Urals, after the capture of Kazan. For three hundred years - everything went under arable fields and water meadows, and so it remained (to our joy).

          And - not a single written document from that state. Not a single record. And actually the Mongolian sources are very scarce, and from the places of events there are almost none ...
          1. rich April 23 2020 10: 45 New
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            Gorgeous comment. good thanks for the info
          2. Mihaylov April 23 2020 11: 51 New
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            Quote: AllBiBek
            But Bulgaria was destroyed with all love, seriously.

            Well, what hatred did they have for the victims that they could not eat ..

            Quote: AllBiBek
            So it lies underground, filled with fallen soldiers in full armor and with arms.
            I had to dig out most of the major cities of the Volga Bulgaria at that time, nowhere is this

            I heard about the excavations in Bulgaria, but I never read anything about this. Do not recommend any literature, something published?
            1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 12: 09 New
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              Yes, there seems to be nothing complicated.

              After Kalki, the Thumens of Subudai and Dzhebe (and they at Chingiz - roughly like Ney and Murat) went back through the lands of the Volga Bulgaria. And - they got into an ambush, the Bulgars knew how to do it very well, thanks to the Nizhny Novgorod earmen, they taught. Both fogans were driven to the river, and here the river vessels with arrows arrived in time.

              As a result - well, usually they write about it in textbooks "they were ambushed, several thousand returned to Karakorum."

              Al-Din also mentions that 8000 prisoners were subsequently exchanged for rams.

              And this is a spit and a slap in the face. The almost complete tyumen of the best troops of the best commanders of Genghis Khan is not given for redemption in gold and at the rate, but is exchanged for rams at the rate of one to one. Like, we don’t need your money, it’s a penny for us, and we value your soldiers below sheep.

              Geopolitical trolling, very thin and tough.

              As a result, after a few years, Subudai and Jebe make another trip. Written, as mentioned, few, and from the Bulgars - not a single one at all, but - the name Jebe from the annals disappears. Forever. Without specifying the details of the death.

              It begs that he died in battle, this is about how Napoleon would have lost Murat.

              After 4 years, Subudai makes another campaign, and breaks the Bulgars, but does not go deep into their lands.

              Well, then - it seems to be known. The main forces of the Chingizid princes hit Bulgaria. Well hit so.

              On the ruins of Bilyar, for example (and he is in all directions to the horizon) and after a hundred years no more than five hundred people lived. This is a hundred families. The village is of medium size. Without protective structures around the perimeter, they were banned.

              The Bulgars repeated the mistake of the Khorezm Shah, locked themselves in the cities. It was not known what they were counting on, but - they had no place to wait for help at all. They did not have allies.

              Part escaped to Russia, artisans (especially on the skin) were accepted there with joy.

              Perhaps a part tried to go along the Volga to the Caspian Sea, but - but what awaited them there? In the best case, they would have reached Persia, but even there are no co-religionists, there are Shiites. And in the Caspian littoral Muslims among those Turks were practically gone.

              Somehow so briefly.
              1. Mihaylov April 23 2020 12: 13 New
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                Thank you, I had in mind the literature on excavations, I was interested in the burial in Burtas in armor, I did not hear about it. I understand that something like Visby?
                Can I look at them somewhere? just wondering
                1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 12: 23 New
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                  Oh, that? In order not to break the brains of Izmailovsky and Khudyakovsky / Khuzinsky monographs - just google the materials of such an annual student conference as UPASK. Ural-Volga Archaeological Student Conference. About a third of the materials of each - this will be.

                  There are students there, their knowledge of the topic is easier to read from scratch, and they do not refer to monstrous lists of sources.
              2. 3x3zsave April 23 2020 19: 01 New
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                artisans (especially skin) were welcomed there.
                Why exactly umars?
                1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 22: 29 New
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                  The basis of export of Bulgaria.
                  Leather boots.
                  The production of leathers of all kinds, and dressing, and dyeing, and sewing were also put on stream.

                  Shoemaker's slot - a very common find. Kochedyk - at times less.

                  In Russia - on the contrary.
          3. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 11: 51 New
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            Quote: AllBiBek
            whence the Tatars in the Middle Volga region

            Tatars - the name of the Mongol tribe. Without going into details of disputes about the relationship between the names "Mongols" and "Tatars" (there is no clarity on this issue in science), I will express some hypotheses. The first - the Mongols called the Tatars all the conquered steppe peoples. The second - the Mongols themselves called themselves Tatars, or rather, that part of them that did not belong to the genus of Genghis Khan itself. So to speak, the Mongols - moals - the elite of the empire, the highest nobility.
            Quote: AllBiBek
            Burtas last held

            As far as I understand, this is the only city that resisted the Mongols. The rest were not defending. Residents generally left the capital before the arrival of the Mongols.
            Quote: AllBiBek
            And so, this is what a Russian city ceased to exist after the Mongols walked on it

            There are a lot of such people. The simplest example is Izyaslavl and it is far from the only one. Many cities have turned into villages and are still so.
            Quote: AllBiBek
            And at the Bulgars, even Bilyar was wiped off the face of the earth, and this is the largest city of its time. Several times larger than Kiev,

            Do not exaggerate. Compare - yes, but no more, and even several times.
            1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 12: 19 New
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              1. Do not smack nonsense, it hurts.
              Tatars are tribal unions, google the Tokuz Tatars at least. And ogyz-Tatars. Yes, even the ta-tan from the Chinese annals. They were even before the separation of the entire Mongolian proper from the whole mass (by the self-name of the tribes)
              2. Remember incorrectly.
              There, in the layer of the Mongolian burning - in each lies the adult population in the estimated amount of the size of the city.
              This data is available for Bilyar, and for Bulgar, also for Kashan, Oshel, Dzhuketau, Kirmen, and for a pack of huge settlements, from which there is only an archaeological name. Type Staroromashkino.

              3. It is not a village, you have a poor idea of ​​what a city of that time is, what it looks like in that strip, and how much space it occupies. Well, how does a fortified settlement differ from a fortification, and how is a fortified settlement from a fortified settlement?

              4. Well, compare the cards at that time, archaeologists do not hide this. The plan of the Kiev fortification within the borders of the Mongol invasion, and the plan of Bilyarsky.

              Kiev at that time, in principle, could not be such a colossus as it was under Yaroslav the Wise. It was only half a century before the events that were ravaged and burned from ten to 14 times. Once every 4 years on average.

              Bilyar was never taken, the maximum outskirts were ravaged.
              1. Mihaylov April 23 2020 12: 31 New
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                Quote: AllBiBek
                Kiev at that time, in principle, could not be such a colossus as it was under Yaroslav the Wise.

                The question is for you in Kiev: I heard from the bottom of my ear that there seems to be a tendency to revise the size of Kiev by 1239 upwards up to 50 thousand. population, how reliable?
                1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 12: 46 New
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                  Well, you yourself, probably, imagine what is happening there with historical science, and who is driving it.

                  I don’t keep track of, but Vyatrovich’s nursery can easily calculate some upkeep according to a formula that also takes into account children under the age of 3, and the figure obtained — without indicating how it was received — to give out here for this under the slogan “Moskal history lied to us "

                  There are no normal monographs on the archeology of Kiev in recent history, in general, although it is dug regularly. And - even under Yusch, it began to come to us mainly on mov, and under Yanyka - exclusively on it, and I disdain to read this by definition. This is not for scientific work, this is a synthetic philological misunderstanding;

                  An alien region, even in its period of specialization, is a hard-to-read thing, and without it that's all.

                  It’s even easier for me to read scientific monographs in Tatar, where the language basis is still more urban, and at least the terminology is not distorted to please the peasant dialects.
              2. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 13: 33 New
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                Quote: AllBiBek
                Do not smack nonsense, it hurts.

                Only you can?
                I respect the Tatar people and consider it a full-fledged participant in the construction of the state in which I live, along with Russians, Scandinavians and numerous Finno-Ugric peoples and many others.
                And I know that now (now, probably already less, but ten years ago for sure) a lot of pseudoscientific literature appears, reaching the point that the Russian principalities were vassals of the Volga Bulgaria and other, similar to "nonsense".
                On archeology I will answer you in the evening, now there is no time to write long posts - the article came out unexpectedly and not at the right time for me.
                And about the "nonsense" - be careful. I can also use savory expressions, if you insist on such rhetoric - for me there is no problem. However, I would prefer a more constructive communication.
                1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 13: 50 New
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                  I repent and apologize, I was on emotions. It happens to me).

                  Regarding the archeology of Zolotarevsky - and judge for yourself, the Mongol troops approached the south of the Volga Bulgaria in May-June, and Zolotorevsky was taken to the first frosts. 5 months between these starting points.

                  What they did and how they did with the Bulgarian cities and villages - well, I can tell you without closing to the sources.

                  But Burtas - not even plundered according to the results of the capture, hurried on. There were not even two days left.

                  For comparison, the same Barsil - and he was first stormed - was robbed to the skin, there on the blinds - not a piece of iron, no earrings, no ringlet.

                  The same picture is in all the other cities I have listed. Except Bilyar, perhaps. For a couple of days it was not so thorough to clean it from valuable.

                  Something like that.
                  1. Trilobite Master April 24 2020 00: 23 New
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                    Please accept my apologies for the harshness.
                    Now I’ll try in essence, at least I’m tired and ... I'm sick of it. smile
                    I will not point by point, I will simply outline my point of view.
                    In my opinion, both the Bulgars and the Russians suffered from the invasion equally. I emphasize precisely from the invasion. Immediately after him, the fate of these two peoples diverged dramatically.
                    Bulgaria for seven years held back the Mongols on its borders. These were, of course, the limited forces of only the Juchi ulus with Batu at the head, and even then not completely, but nonetheless. Before the Mongols arrived, Bulgaria was in a state of permanent conflict with Suzdal and, mind you, the war went on with the advantage of the Russians, chopping off and the Bulgars piece by piece. I won’t give the chronology of this war, I just don’t remember the date of the campaigns. The Bulgarian state in territory and population was comparable to the Vladimir-Suzdal principality, but probably still inferior, since the advantage of the Russians in these conflicts is evident.
                    While limited forces of the Jochi ulus (not even an empire) acted against Bulgaria, she successfully resisted, but when in 1236 the whole empire fell upon her, resistance was no longer discussed. The picture exactly resembles Russia - down to the details. Lost field battle on the border and the imminent fall of cities - one after another. The capital was surrendered without a fight, in other cities there was a massacre (archeology testifies more precisely to the massacre, and not to the active defense of most cities), the resistance is episodic and unorganized. Everything ended within three months, Bulgaria ceased to exist.
                    Next came the turn of Russia. Some believe that the Mongols passed Bulgaria and, not stopping, piled on Russia. However, to me, the point of view of researchers who believe that the Mongols came to Russia a year after the defeat of Bulgaria, and not immediately, seems to be preferable. Russia also resisted in an disorganized and stupid manner, but its military potential was higher, hence the Mongols' heavy losses (Kulkan near Kolomna, the death of Genghis’s son is an exclusive case) and ... in fact, the critical situation Batu fell under Kozelsky. I even had to call for help from the steppe.
                    And hereafter, the paths of Bulgaria and Russia diverge. Russia calmly accepts vassal dependence on the Empire, and Bulgaria constantly revolts, year after year. Naturally, punitive operations, naturally, political and administrative measures to prevent further riots. As a result, the introduction of direct rule in Bulgaria and the "sprinkling of salt" on the charred ruins of its cities with a ban on settling there. By the way, a visual lesson of what led (and certainly would have led Russia) resistance to the Mongols "to the last." The territory of Bulgaria was devastated, the cities were purposefully and rigidly reset, the land was inhabited by aliens from the steppe. The autochthonous Finno-Ugric population remained only on the periphery - the Bashkirs, Chuvashs and others, I will not list all.
                    As for the size of cities in Bulgaria and Russia, listening to Tatar nationalists is no better than Ukrainian. I am ready to rely on the writings of Tolochko Sr. His method of calculating the population of Kiev brought, if I remember correctly, about 50000 people. And if the methodology itself can cause controversy (some quite sane researchers, not “Vyatrovichs,” justify the figure of up to 100000 people), then the initial data on the city’s area and building density will not go anywhere.
                    According to the data that I personally met in trustworthy literature, the cities of Bulgaria were comparable in area with Vladimir, but inferior to Novgorod and Kiev.
                    1. Mihaylov April 24 2020 10: 18 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      hence the great losses of the Mongols (Kulkan near Kolomna, the death of the son of Genghis himself is simply an exceptional case) and ... in fact, the critical situation Batu fell under Kozelsk. I even had to call for help from the steppe.

                      In reality, we don’t know anything about the losses of the Mongols and about the death of Kulkan too: how he died and why we don’t know. All the arguments that there was such an “evil slash” and about the breakthrough of the heavy Russian cavalry directly to the Genghisid’s headquarters are modern virtual fabrications. We know that just died, or maybe there was an accident, as for example the same Jan described in the novel, why not the version?
                      And with Kozelsky - yes, it didn’t work out right away, but the specific conditions there, and Batu himself — the “commander in chief” —did not take up his own business, and when “tactical experts” with the corresponding siege equipment came up in modern terms, then everything was very fast is over.
                      1. Trilobite Master April 24 2020 14: 00 New
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                        Quote: Mihaylov
                        All the arguments that there was such an “evil slash” and about the breakthrough of the heavy Russian cavalry directly to the Genghisid’s headquarters are modern virtual fabrications.

                        Mongolian military leaders did not climb into the front ranks of the fighting. If the khan died, then this meant only one thing - his unit was defeated and the personal guard was killed. Well, or an accident, of course, right up to the eagle flying over the khan and dropping the turtle. smile
                        According to Kozelsk.
                        Try to analyze the dates of the beginning of the siege and capture of Torzhok, the beginning of the siege of Kozelsk and its capture in the context of natural conditions and their changes. Well, the distance between Torzhok, Kozelsky and the border with the steppe must be taken into account.
                        It will become clear why Batu was stuck near Kozelsk.
                      2. Mihaylov April 24 2020 14: 45 New
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                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Mongolian military leaders did not climb into the front ranks of the fighting.

                        Totally agree.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        his unit was defeated and the bodyguard was killed.

                        But this is at least logical, but only an assumption, we do not know this.
                        And we don’t know how he died either.
                        Maybe he went over koumiss and decided to do a good dare, show his saber, maybe fell from a horse, maybe a random arrow flew in, maybe they cut their own to the noise and they all dumped on the Russians (no one canceled the power struggle), maybe a turtle flew in the head, etc. d. etc.
                        I only mean that more or less plausible versions can be thought up a lot in five minutes.
                        And with Kozelsk: in the beginning only one detachment came there, although with Batu himself. Then others came and took. The Mongols in general, the whole army did not go very long, then scattered into separate detachments and all combed like a comb. However, all this at Kargalov is disassembled in sufficient detail.
                      3. Trilobite Master April 24 2020 16: 29 New
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                        Quote: Mihaylov
                        And how he died, we don’t know either

                        According to Rashid al-Din, "he was wounded and he died." Given that, it is a description of the battle, the assumption of liquidation for political reasons, an accident, etc. seem completely far-fetched. Moreover, the times of carnage between Genghisides will not come soon.
                        Quote: Mihaylov
                        All this at Kargalov is disassembled in sufficient detail.

                        It is not applicable to Kozelsk.
                        Torzhok fell in early March. Approached Kozelsk in about three weeks, having covered about 400 km. - 20 km per day - shock pace, in a hurry. But did not have time. The rivers opened up and Batu got stuck.
                        Kargalov does not consider the siege of Kozelsk due to the inability to move on due to the mud, but, it seems to me, in vain. It was she who caused the Mongols to stop, and not their burning desire to plunder yet another small Russian town. I believe that Batu’s month of forced standing near Kozelsk was in the forest zone at a time when everything around was flooded with water and he remembered him for a long time. And the people in his detachment died more from starvation and disease than from Russian arrows and swords. It is not known what part of the horse train he managed to keep under such conditions, perhaps he just had to eat all or most of the horses in order to survive. Therefore, they did not take off on the road when it dried up, but waited for help.
                        When the roads dried up and became passable for the cavalry and the wagon train, help came from the steppe to Batu and Kozelsk was taken.
                        Something like that.
                        By the way, I have a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards Kargalov. On the one hand, I pay tribute to his scientific erudition, industriousness and ability to compare and analyze facts, but on the other hand, some of his constructions have long been considered obsolete, for example, the strength of the Batu Mongolian army. So his work should be treated with respect, but with some caution, checking if there are any other, more modern and reasonable points of view on a particular issue.
                      4. Mihaylov April 24 2020 16: 47 New
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                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        By the way, I have a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards Kargalov.

                        I agree with you, me too. In many ways, of course, work has already become outdated. But the campaign itself is generally well sorted out. Evidence is sufficiently convincing that there was no campaign against Novgorod.
                        By the number of the Mongolian troops - you yourself know what furious debates about this.
                        In Kozelsk - maybe so, I will not argue, probably you are right. Honestly, I have not been interested in this topic for a long time.

                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        According to Rashid al-Din, "he was wounded and he died"

                        Actually, I’m talking about this: all we know is that he died from a wound. Probably in connection with the battle, but how and under what circumstances - one can only guess.
        2. Caretaker April 23 2020 13: 47 New
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          Quote: AllBiBek
          Kiev at that time, in principle, could not be such a colossus as it was under Yaroslav the Wise. It was only half a century before the events that were ravaged and burned from ten to 14 times. Once every 4 years on average.

          Do not go in cycles in Kiev, at that time there were other cities in Russia.
          1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 13: 55 New
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            They asked about Kiev, and answered about him.

            By the way - well, I know a little about the situation in Old Ryazan (fortunately, the Starorchzanchka expedition - although legendary, but gives the materials regularly and in large quantities), and according to Vladimir.

            In the first case, the layer of fire is global, and thick. In the second, it differs from others only in the presence of Mongol arrows. Conclusion? He was quickly capitalized and burned just as quickly. There are signs of resistance, but not much.

            Such that corpses in basements or inside collapsed buildings - I do not recall right away.
        3. Caretaker April 23 2020 13: 52 New
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          Quote: AllBiBek
          Well, compare the cards at that time, archaeologists do not hide this. The plan of the Kiev fortification within the borders of the Mongol invasion, and the plan of Bilyarsky.

          I wonder what kind of fortifications Bilyar had in those days and what buildings there were? I have not met information on this issue.
          1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 14: 05 New
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            Rabat - the central part, km per km - outside the walls (tree), height - about five meters, two layers, between - earth and stones. Towers every 20 meters somewhere.

            Further - well, let there be quarters. Between them are internal ramparts and ditches.

            On the outer perimeter - they are, a number from 7 to 12. Not a solid line. A kind of frank ur. The moat in depth - from three to five, the shaft height - another two meters, on the shaft - a stockade, with a platform on the inside. Shooting towers through the same twenty meters.

            Google the monograph by Fayaz Sharipovich Khuzin "Cities of the Volga Bulgaria", there in detail.

            The network is definitely there, I uploaded pdf.
        4. 3x3zsave April 23 2020 19: 09 New
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          Do not smack nonsense, it hurts.
          But this is bad manners, at least. You need to argue with dignity.
      2. Korsar4 April 23 2020 13: 22 New
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        Upside comes to an example.
    2. Caretaker April 23 2020 13: 31 New
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      Quote: AllBiBek
      So it lies underground, filled with fallen soldiers in full armor and with arms.
      I read several notes about the current state. Modern looters rob mercilessly.
      1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 14: 07 New
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        Already not, about three years as they took seriously.

        Now every major monument in that region has an almost constant duty throughout the season, and volunteers, sympathizers, and local authorities regularly visit.
  • Hantengri April 23 2020 10: 48 New
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    Quote: Lannan Shi
    Links to outright fakes for example.

    Which for example?
    1. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 10: 50 New
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      Quote: HanTengri
      Which for example?

      Carpini for example.
      1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 11: 16 New
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        What about Carpini? He collected information in hot pursuit, and within one generation, that is, there is a phone that is not yet so damaged. And directly from the participants.

        This is how to collect memoirs about WWII during the time of Khrushchev. They do not stop being memoirs from this, but the people’s memory is still fresh.

        Hara-Dawan won generally at the end of the 19th century, and?
        1. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 11: 19 New
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          Quote: AllBiBek
          He collected information in hot pursuit, and within one generation,

          Did you read it? That's to be the whole. And not in quotes pulled by the Mongolophils?
          Quote: AllBiBek
          And directly from the participants.

          Smiled. Really smiled.
          1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 11: 28 New
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            Of course. The full version, translated into Russian of 1911, reprint seems 1959.

            And what made you smile there, and what do you want to discuss about?

            Ask, I'm not a Mongolophile, if I can explain in simple words - I will explain.

            But I hope you don’t think that historical science is stupid to read selectively on a topic, draw a conclusion based on your experience in another field, and pull an owl on a globe?
            1. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 11: 42 New
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              Quote: AllBiBek
              Of course. The full version, translated into Russian of 1911, reprint seems 1959.

              No offense, okay? But you have completely no criticality of perception. And if tomorrow the party and the government, well, or those who rule the official historians, make a decision - supposedly there was no Genghis and other Batyevs with the Neva and Dron, but there were a robber and a nightingale, you will begin to discuss the nightingale-nightingale yoke.
              Reopen the plateau of our Carpini. And put a globe next to the European part of Russia. Well, the second, Central Asia. Now read geography in Karpinski, and try to find this insanity in reality. I can tell you. in the territory of the former USSR, the places described by the "immature traveler" are absent as a phenomenon. However, as well as on the whole globe. Already this is enough to transfer karpini from historical sources to the category of entertaining fiction. Moreover, a very low damage, the level is much lower than the bottom, in translation to modern realities.
              Quote: AllBiBek
              And what made you smile there

              But the above and caused. What kind of a participant, what the hell are real ?: If a person is in such a deep senility that he is not able to describe the geography he travels to? Of course, they were kind to the holy fools, but nevertheless, they were not admitted to the rulers of the frankly sick on the whole head.
              1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 11: 54 New
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                Comrade, but it’s nothing that climatic zones walk, rivers change channels, streams dry up ...

                You would consider paleo-soil science, and google it for materials, which climate zone is for what century and within what boundaries - there are more and more works.

                Or, do you think that the same Minusinsk bronzes, for example, at the time when they were cast, were also in the wilds of the taiga? And the forest-steppe of the same East Zakamye did not reach a hundred kilometers to Ufa at all times?

                It should be a shame to not take such elementary things into account, I came to them in my school years.
                1. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 12: 15 New
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                  Quote: AllBiBek
                  Comrade, but it’s nothing that climatic zones walk, rivers change channels, streams dry up ...

                  About how ... Well, tell us in more detail about the Volga and the Urals changing the channel.
                  Quote: AllBiBek
                  It should be a shame to not take such elementary things into account, I came to them in my school years.

                  Which ones? To the mountains in the upper reaches of the Don? Periodically "drying out"?
                  Laponka. I am frankly too lazy to stop the hundredth time to explain that the geography of the travel of a carpini is sucked from a finger. And on a planet codenamed Earth, it is not observed in principle. In the foreseeable past. The era of dinosaurs is somehow not very interesting, when discussing the mythical Mongols. That a flood in the steppe, with hundreds of victims, described by karpini, is purely technically impossible. Without a tsunami that passed from Japan to the Urals, across Asia. That's stupid math against. That the hail fell in a layer in meters is a dirty lie. That the melting of this city, read the ice, in half a day, which the eyewitness gawns about, is possible only at temperatures well beyond 100, and if that were the reality, the carpines would be returned to the pope, in the form of a saucepan with a strong broth. That eating human shit, which Karpini speaks of as an eternal Mongolian custom - a) does not carry a meaning, b) leads to extinction in a couple of generations maximum. Fleming did not have time to give birth to antibiotics, but without them coprophages and suicide are synonyms.
                  Mlyn. Yes, the whole creation of carpini, in essence, is a collection of fakes. Designed for a medieval layman. for which the city is 200 km from his home, an unknown distance, which he will never visit.
                  1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 12: 32 New
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                    About the changing channel of the Volga? Well, slide to Astrakhan, ask local historians. Learn a lot. In the spring, drop by, ask for her stable card.

                    Regarding smaller rivers - well, we usually reconnoitre along the old channels. We find a lot of interesting things, you know, from the Mesolithic to the Late. After we make the channel change maps over the centuries, and also do not hide them from the public. In any region there.

                    2. You are too emotional, but - what kind of crap are they talking about? There are vomit, stuffed them back into the one who poured.

                    Therefore, it is indicated that choking on one's own emetics is an honorable death; he kept food in himself until the last.

                    Comrade, you grabbed the tops on the topic, caught the guru’s syndrome, which gives supercentral ideas for critical thinking, but with this project nonsense - like Saltychikha girls at the stable. Pointless and merciless. No offense.
                  2. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 12: 52 New
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                    Quote: AllBiBek
                    About the changing channel of the Volga? Well, slide to Astrakhan,

                    Why in Astrakhan? By karpini I need to go to Mariupol rather, or to Yalta, so that I can look for the mouth of the Volga.
                    Quote: AllBiBek
                    Regarding smaller rivers

                    Oh ... the Ural is a shallow river .... Yes, you make discovery after discovery.
                    Quote: AllBiBek
                    Comrade, you grabbed the tops on the topic,

                    Little honey ... Do you understand what you're talking about? Volga and Urals flowing into the Black Sea. Mountains on the Don and the Dnieper. What nafig tops? This alone is enough to send the opus to the scrap.
                2. AllBiBek April 23 2020 12: 35 New
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                  In Karpini’s time, didn’t they go further two hundred km from the house?

                  Rave. The peasants from those who followed the Hermit and the participants in the campaign of children will not let you lie.

                  You should at least google written ones from that period, from do-horseradish. How many pilgrims from which countries to neighboring countries bow to relics trampled regularly, and who are these pilgrims by social origin.

                  It is useless to discuss with you, it’s like a palm on the water. For sim stop on this topic, do not blame me. You won’t lose much for yourself.

                  Sincerely
                3. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 13: 46 New
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                  Quote: AllBiBek
                  It is useless to discuss with you, it’s like a palm on the water. For sim stop on this topic

                  Simply put, you studied the map, but did not find the Volga mouth near Mariupol or the mountains around Voronezh?
                  Quote: AllBiBek
                  You won’t lose much for yourself.

                  This is a fact. You have not spoken anything new. The evidence in style is a fool herself, and Karpini doesn’t lie at all, but only a little bit wrong, and in general he is an artist, he sees this, I hear not the first or even the fifth year.
                4. Caretaker April 23 2020 14: 26 New
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                  Quote: Lannan Shi
                  but neither the mouth of the Volga near Mariupol, nor the mountains around Voronezh were found?

                  "Volga near Mariupol" could call Manych-Gudilo.
                  Koporye fortress was on the seashore, and now 12 km.

                  "Mountains" were simply called hills, so they could be anywhere. Moreover, the translation, like a "spoiled phone," well, somewhat embellished, plus added from other people's words.
                  If not taken literally, then Carpini is quite an interesting source.
                5. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 14: 39 New
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                  Quote: Caretaker
                  If not taken literally, then Carpini is a rather interesting source

                  Then maybe we will not take it literally, believing that he was talking about the Mongols? Maybe he described the Ethiopians? Or may the Indians? And the story of horse racing and four rivers, is it an allegorical description of sailing across the Atlantic?
                  If the author allows himself lies, at the very beginning, in such constants as mountains, then to believe him otherwise .... What to check is impossible .. Sorry, in decent society, stories like this, Karpinevskaya, are simply called a lie. And defend her. without selfish interest ... There is either frank fanaticism, or no less frank disagreements with logic.
                  Dixi.
            2. Operator April 23 2020 21: 45 New
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              Lannan Shi - Comrade laughing
  • Hantengri April 23 2020 11: 31 New
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    Quote: Lannan Shi
    Carpini for example.

    On what basis do you consider Carpini a fake? Just because: "My left leg imagined yesterday." you have "logic and common sense" (c)? Or is something more material and sane based on your doubts?
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • Trilobite Master April 23 2020 11: 54 New
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    Quote: Lannan Shi
    Carpini for example.

    Does it prevent poor fellow Karpini from reigning in good faith? laughing And with it the other sources ... Well, yes, fakes are everything and fakes, as the great Fomenko said, because it’s not figs to write something that does not correspond to his fantasies. wassat laughing
    1. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 12: 56 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Well, yes, fakes are everything and fakes, as the great Fomenko said,

      Well, yes, it is better to live in the world of Mongolophilia. Where Orsha is a mountain resort. Volga dries up at times. And Mongolia is a coastal country. It is simpler than what at least occasionally think ..
      1. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 13: 08 New
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        Quote: Lannan Shi
        It is simpler than what at least occasionally think ..

        You know better.
        Quote: Lannan Shi
        Orsha is a mountain resort. Volga dries up at times. And Mongolia is a coastal country.

        Okay so ...
        But if you discuss what I really wrote, and not your crazy fantasies?
        But you don’t know anything about the Mongol Empire and, most interestingly, you don’t want to know. This, you see, contradicts the writings of the great historian Fomenko, as well as your common sense and logic. I emphasize - yours. Common sense and logic tell me that if you have any doubts or discrepancies with someone else’s opinion, you should first of all study the issue more deeply and figure it out, at least for yourself, and not try, based on the minimum of knowledge gathered from obscure sources, to make great conclusions.
        1. Lannan Shi April 23 2020 13: 38 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          But if you discuss what I really wrote, and not your crazy fantasies?

          IX. On Monday, after the first Sunday of the Pentecost, we hastily set off on his journey to him, and, riding as many horses as they could get in, as usual we had fresh horses three or four times every day, we rode from morning to night, and, moreover, very often at night, but could not reach it earlier than Holy Week Wednesday. We drove through the entire country of Comans, which is a continuous plain and has four large rivers: the first is the Dnieper (Neper), near which, from the side of Russia, Korenets wandered, and on the other hand, Mauzi wandered along the steppes there, which is higher Korenets; the second is Don, who roams a prince named Cartan, married to Batu’s sister; the third is the Volga, this river is very large, it passes from place to place of Batu, the fourth is called Jaec, she has two thousandths moving from place to place, one on one side of the river, the other on the other side. In winter, they all descend to the sea, and in summer along the banks of these very rivers rise to the mountains. This sea is the Great Sea, from which comes the sleeve of St. George, flowing to Constantinople. On the Dnieper, for many days we rode on the ice. These rivers are large and full of fish, and especially the Volga; these rivers flow into the sea of ​​Greece, called the Great Sea. On the shores of this sea, in very many places with great danger for many days we drove along the ice, because it freezes well for three levoks from the coast

          Laponka. This is not my fantasy. Some damn karpini, it speaks black to you in Italian. Korenets and mauntsi rise to the Dnieper mountains, the cartan to the Don, and the Batu to the Volga. Learn Mongolophilian Geography. Never forget that Orsha, Voronezh and Samara are located in the mountains. KARPINI himself told you this. Well, if you suddenly soap out on a cruise through the Mediterranean, go to Astrakhan. The liner will go to Istanbul from there, where else can he go if not from the main port of the Black Sea?
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          study the matter more deeply and figure it out,

          Where is deeper then? Karpini tells you plain text. I rode along the Black Sea. The Dnieper, Don, Volga and the Urals flow into the Black Sea. You either sign that the Volga and the Urals flow into the Black Sea, and that mountains are located between the Dnieper and the Volga, or you disagree. But then Karpini was an outspoken liar, who did not see the Volga or the Black Sea. Here either. Either you have serious problems with geography, or karpini fake bikes. And the third option, in principle, does not exist.
          Dixi.
        2. Esoteric April 23 2020 13: 47 New
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          A quote from the book of the great philologist, L. V. Uspensky, “A word about words.” “The Chinese language in its structure is a young language. And it develops according to the same rules as English, Russian, etc. And, therefore, it cannot be four thousand years old at all ”
    2. Edward Vashchenko April 23 2020 14: 48 New
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      for not figs to write something that does not correspond to his fantasies

      Bravo!
  • Caretaker April 23 2020 12: 37 New
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    Quote: Lannan Shi
    Links to outright fakes for example. It seems to be not very logical, but with common sense it didn’t lie nearby.

    More specifically, please. "Frank fakes" in the article did not notice.
  • andrewkor April 23 2020 06: 22 New
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    Having read the article of one Author, you have the opinion of this Author. Having read the materials of many Authors, you have YOUR opinion!
  • kalibr April 23 2020 06: 26 New
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    Well? Happened! And it turned out very good. For example, I always wanted to read complex work about it and now ... read it. Thank! I like it!
    1. Esoteric April 23 2020 11: 24 New
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      What are the Mongols tarovatye. No wonder they got out of the huts. And they conquered China, and created the Empire, but where, by the way, are the archives of this empire? And sailed to Japan, sorry not around the world. This is how nomadic pastoralists. And they have intelligence on the go, where the volume of the notorious British.
      Imagine a Mongol scout in Europe. And what, in appearance, is suitable, the truth is not trained in languages, and does not know the written language, but what is this. Khan ordered, however, if you want, you don’t want to, but turn around. The tale affects.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Esoteric April 23 2020 14: 02 New
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          I absolutely do not believe in four-thousand-year-old China. There is Japan at hand. Here they are honest people, they do not upset their history in the depths of time. And believe the Chinese annals, this is such a thing. To recall at least the sensational story about the "invention" by the Chinese of the table of logarithms, completely ripped off, insolent, from the works of Napier. Moreover, the evidence of plagiarism is reinforced concrete. And they all have this style. The same supposedly the invention of gunpowder.
          1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 14: 22 New
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            Yes, of course, bullshit does not yap their story, yeah. They have only Japanese ceramics - 40 years, and if you please, take a word, hold and research - we will not give. The sculpture, of course, is not crockery, but it is burnt clay.

            The Chinese, too, are not without sin, and also love the legendary kingdoms to take to the beginning of the Holocene, but the confirmed period of the existence of civilization with inscriptions - they have 4 thousand with several hundred.

            So-so, to be honest. There, just in the Middle East, they climbed into a cozy nest of Semitic peoples through the Caucasus, where for many centuries dolmens were built, the same Hittites, and Battle Axes in all their forms reigned supreme in Europe, but the Chinese are not stupid, they know that rice civilizations are not rye / wheat, everything is much more complicated there, and if so, they are not created so quickly and easily.
            1. Esoteric April 23 2020 14: 30 New
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              Well, about China, I generally have erithic thoughts. For example, a wall. It seems to me that it was built during the time of the unforgettable Mao, when he, if you please see it, began to restore it. Willingly I believe! And it would be very interesting to hear the names of the great Chinese physicists, mathematicians, chemists, engineers, inventors, well, at least one hundred years ago, we will not talk about the Middle Ages. Where are the Lomonosovs, Popovs, Maxwells, Newtons, Burs? How such an ancient civilization could not say anything in modern science?
              1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 14: 45 New
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                So you don’t even know that Korea was founded by Chinese workers who didn’t have time for the Construction of the Century, for which Qin Shi Huang chopped his head, and they turned to the side? What is there a bunch of written about?

                Do you consider the process of the accumulation of scientific knowledge and their use a linear process?

                Nosovsky, log in! History is not your favorite topology; there is no identity of objects by the number of holes, no matter how you deform them. Here the Sun and Orange are not the same thing, and Orange + Bagel is not Saturn at the exit. History is really a science, in it you must first know the materiel, in the second - to think, and only in the third - include fantasy. You, judging by the statements, are exactly the opposite.
                1. Esoteric April 23 2020 15: 02 New
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                  Well, that is a given. I have long noticed that history is in terrible contradiction with such a boring science as economics. For example, they tell us that in ancient Rome they organized battles on ships in circuses, for which they poured water into the arena. I wonder how? Wore buckets? It seems that there were no pumps. And how was water held within the arena? Millions of cubic meters then? And most importantly - how much is the money, and where did they get this whim?
                  Let’s say a certain king in the Middle Ages ordered to build a bridge across the English Channel. Well, that would be all like people, railings hewn, lanterns after twenty meters. Would he be able to do this? No way. He could rage, chop heads, hang up, but he wouldn’t get a bridge. For technology and economics. And historians are not familiar with it. The king commanded them, and with a wave of a magic wand they grow in the desert of the city, millions of armies are arming themselves. And where money is taken for all this magnificence, they are on the drum. The king commanded.
                  1. Mihaylov April 23 2020 16: 43 New
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                    Quote: Ezoterik
                    For example, they tell us that in ancient Rome they organized battles on ships in circuses, for which they poured water into the arena. I wonder how? Wore buckets? It seems that there were no pumps

                    The pump was already known in Roman times, and the aqueducts are still operating quite successfully.
                    1. 3x3zsave April 23 2020 19: 31 New
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                      And the "Archimedean screw", meanwhile.
                  2. Pissarro April 24 2020 10: 51 New
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                    Author, in Rome there was running water. He is now preserved. Filling something with water was not a problem. And there was also a sewage system to drain the water.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                  1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 18: 07 New
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                    Do you know so many Great Walls built in China during the Qin Shihuandi ???

                    Please share your secret knowledge, because historical science is like a matrix, it lies to everyone except the Overlooked Oneself, Studying Wikipedia and Watching YouTube.
                    1. Caretaker April 23 2020 18: 22 New
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                      Quote: AllBiBek
                      Please share your secret knowledge, because historical science is like a matrix, it lies to everyone except the Overlooked Oneself, Studying Wikipedia and Watching YouTube.

                      I don’t see the connection between historical science and you, judging by the manner of conducting the discussion.
              2. Bar1 April 23 2020 18: 06 New
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                Quote: Ezoterik
                Where are the Lomonosovs, Popovs, Maxwells, Newtons, Burs? How such an ancient civilization could not say anything in modern science?


                but where are the scientists from the "great Greeks" at the time of the emergence of Greek independence in the middle of the 19th century? They are not here.
                1. Pissarro April 24 2020 10: 59 New
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                  Today's Greece is not the most developed part of that Greece. The Greeks lived in Constantinople under the rule of the Turks, among tens and hundreds of thousands. And they created for the Turks, for example, a fleet that dominated the Mediterranean Sea for the entire 16th century. Yesterday's nomad would never have created it on his own. And so it is, archeology, economics, the army, religion. There is nothing Turkish, in Turkey there is not a single city founded by the Turks, everything is created there by the Greeks, Armenians, Slavs, Jews, Arabs, Tatars, and highlanders of the Caucasus. Among the Turks, the talent was only able to assimilate and force themselves to serve. Yes, and the word Turks in the empire meant only an uncouth shepherd, the elite called themselves Ottomans and there was only a sultan
                  1. Bar1 April 24 2020 14: 16 New
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                    Quote: Pissarro
                    The Greeks lived in Constantinople under the rule of the Turks, among tens and hundreds of thousands.

                    and how did it happen that the Greeks took abandoned Athens, Sparta, Fifa and their other cities and moved to Constantinople?
                    1. Pissarro April 24 2020 17: 16 New
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                      Why throw something? In the place of Constantinople stood the Greek city of Byzantium, and on the opposite bank in Asia Minor, dozens of Greek cities also stood and flourished simultaneously with Sparta and Athens, Smyrna, Trebizond, Nicaea, for example
            2. Undecim April 23 2020 20: 01 New
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              Yes, of course, bullshit does not yap their story, yeah. They have only Japanese ceramics - 40 years, and if you please, take a word, hold and research - we will not give. The sculpture, of course, is not crockery, but it is burnt clay.
              A link to sources, where the Japanese "bullshit" about ceramics aged 40000 years can provide? And then in the literature, including Japanese, the numbers are more than 14 BC. not found. Or maybe you "bullshit" you?
              1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 22: 40 New
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                Google Fukui-15 and Gongenyama. This is the name of the monuments, from where they climb like that. Polished stone figures, ceramic figures, and other anomalous period.

                I strongly doubt that it is in Runet, I definitely did not come across. In it, there is generally an ugly little in the Stone Age.
                1. Undecim April 23 2020 23: 17 New
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                  What side stone figures refer to ceramics? And what is this link - google? What anomaly? Or do you mean the discussion about when the Japanese Paleolithic started? So there is no anomaly.
                  Can you express your thoughts normally, and not drop phrases, like the world’s star at the height of glory?
    2. Esoteric April 23 2020 11: 28 New
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      Further, the copy-paste, as the guru of all historians, Saliger of the year calculated:
      “Square 7, multiplied by 9, gives 441, and square 9, multiplied by 7 is 567. The perfect number is 496, 6 and 29 are the smaller parts of the perfect number, the remaining number from the perfect number exceeds 8100, and they are too large to be used in the question of states. Square 12 is 144, and the cube is 1728. No empire in its existence has exceeded the value of the sum of these numbers, so large numbers must be rejected. Four spherical numbers included in the great number are 125, 216, 625, 1296. By means of these several numbers, the set of which contains not perfect, not squares, not cubes, as well as numbers made up of even and odd digits, but not of sevens and nines, which are relatively few in this endless sequence, we are allowed to study the wonderful changes in almost all states. Firstly, starting from Cuba 12, about which some of the academics say that this is a great and fatal number of Plato, we will find that the Assyrian monarchy from Tsar Ninus to Alexander the Great embodies this number exactly, according to Plato himself ... From the flood to the destruction of the temple and the Jewish state, Filon totals 1717 years, Joseph (Flavius ​​- AB) gives 200 years more, others - much less. I am inclined to think both from the truth of history, SO AND FROM THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE GREATEST NUMBER, that 11 years should be added to Filon's terms, since the result should be no more and no less than cube 12 .... Although there are great differences among writers regarding the time of the birth of Christ, Philo, who is considered the most accurate among the ancients, relates this to 3993. Lucidius subtracts three from this year, Joseph adds six for many reasons, which I fully approve of, so how does the number get 3999, the result of squares 7 and 9, most wonderfully suited to the changes in the most important matters that followed. ”
  • Caretaker April 23 2020 06: 35 New
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    Shortly before the drafting of the treaty in 1229, the Tatar embassy was present in Smolensk (that is how the Russian chronicles called the Mongols) the embassy which the Smolensk prince (probably it was Mstislav Davydovich) placed on the German farmstead.
    Is this an assumption or a fact?
    What happened to this embassy, ​​which entailed the need to make an appropriate registry entry in the trade agreement, we can only speculate. Probably, this could be some kind of quarrel, or simply the Mongolian ambassadors with their presence something greatly constrained the Germans in Smolensk.
    Perhaps they were afraid to pick up some infection?
    1. tihonmarine April 23 2020 08: 41 New
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      Quote: Caretaker
      Perhaps they were afraid to pick up some infection?

      Was Caron really at that time?
      1. bubalik April 23 2020 08: 57 New
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        Really and then she was evil

        Our volost Malaya Shalga once consisted of seven villages: Seredka, Bryukhovo, it was also written by Ignashevskaya, Kirilovo, Lashutino, Esino, Zalesye and Danilovskaya. Around the 16th century in the village of Danilovskaya some kind of epidemic broke out. By the decision of the gathering, it was forbidden for any of the inhabitants of the village of Danilovskaya to go outside the borders of their village. The village quarantine was strictly guarded in turn by sentinels from other villages. For violation of the quarantine, anyone was punished by the decision of the gathering to die on the spot, so no one dared to violate the border of the quarantine zone marked around the village of Danilovskaya by milestones. By spring, all the inhabitants of the village became extinct. A requiem was served by him, and the village was burned to the ground along with the corpses of people and animals. In place of the village of Danilovskaya, a cross was erected from a very thick pine. Now this history is forgotten, but the field on which this cross stood for more than two centuries is still called the Cross Field.
        This legend is told in his memoirs by old-timer A. Petukhov. The village Danilovskaya mentioned in it really existed, and was listed as part of the Lichkov Shalga volost (later Malaya Shalga) in Sotnaya Nikita Yakhontov 1561-1562 (1). In the documents and plans of the XVIII century. she is already gone. The memoirs in abbreviated form were published in the book of N. I. Tormosova “Kargopol: the history of the disappeared volosts” (Kargopol, 2011. P. 598-600). belay
        1. tihonmarine April 23 2020 13: 07 New
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          Quote: bubalik
          Around the 16th century, an epidemic broke out in the village of Danilovskaya.

          An interesting story, I could not even imagine that this could happen in the Arkhangelsk province, I understand that next to China, there are the “Manshurka” and “Mongol” from which all the infection and plague and cholera, and “Siberian” came. And such an epidemic that mowed down everyone. Thanks for the interesting post.
      2. AllBiBek April 23 2020 13: 27 New
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        No, but even then all the merchants tried to avoid the pale and coughing Asians.

        For at that point in time how many times epidemics came to Europe - almost always from the East, from the Silk Road.

        Locusts, incidentally, also regularly flew in from the same direction, so there was no reason to love something oriental other than spices and silk.
        1. tihonmarine April 23 2020 14: 09 New
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          Quote: AllBiBek
          Locusts, incidentally, also regularly flew from the same direction

          And the gray rat also came from there, along with the Mongol Tatars.
          1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 14: 13 New
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            Nope.

            The Arabs dragged in the holds when they made the Silk Road by sea.

            You don’t think that the Mongols used pasuk as a pet, but now it burst out and was wild?

            Ulus Jochi at that time was already cracking at the seams.

            But bed bugs in Central Asia - it was just the Russian troops who dragged it during the Kokand campaign. Until then, they had never heard of bugs there, but there were enough lice.
            1. tihonmarine April 23 2020 14: 30 New
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              Quote: AllBiBek
              Nope.

              In the old days of the monastery books were written about rats. And the most interesting is how they crossed the Volga and the Dnieper. Very smart creatures.
              1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 14: 39 New
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                So black rats, they are different. They occasionally come across bones in the mountains, and both of these, and before the Time of Troubles in Russia, there is no dull pasuk.

                Black rats in the plural is also an interesting story, at one time, when genetics was gaining momentum, it was found out that under one guise hid two species that were not distinguishable in appearance. The difference is in the chromosome set, 22 or 44. A rare case when the doubling of the chromosomes gave such a strange result (however, judging by the genetics of the same horseshoe crabs - from the time of the trilobites to the present day they have gone through this at least three times, and are still alive) .

                And now the black rat - well, the pest of course, but because of such a moment - the pest is calm and not so prolific. The options that the male and the female have the same number of chromosomes - well, how lucky, and due to frequent mating - a quiet little animal. Also herbivorous mainly.

                But a pasuk is a pasuk. It is larger, it is more aggressive, it is omnivorous. And he expanded the ecumenical very tightly. A black rat disappeared for half a century somewhere.

                Now she has remained only on individual islands.
    2. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 11: 57 New
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      Quote: Caretaker
      Is this an assumption or a fact?

      The presence of the embassy is certainly a fact. It can also be considered a fact that for some time this embassy was located in the German courtyard, which the Germans really did not like, to such an extent that even a ban on such accommodation was made in the trade agreement.
      1. Caretaker April 23 2020 13: 05 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        The presence of the embassy is certainly a fact. It can also be considered a fact that for some time this embassy was located in the German courtyard, which the Germans really did not like, to such an extent that even a ban on such accommodation was made in the trade agreement.

        Unfortunately, the article under discussion does not indicate where this event was recorded.
        A “ban” in a contract is just an excuse to suggest, not a proof.
        1. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 13: 16 New
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          The agreement was concluded no later than 1229. Once again, carefully read the article relating to the Tatars, and given that the treaty is "international", tripartite, try to imagine what the parties were guided by, including this article in such a serious agreement. Assumptions have to be made regarding the goals, routes and fate of this embassy. Regarding the fact that it was and was in Smolensk and somehow prevented the Germans from their trading yard, I think there can be no doubt.
          1. Caretaker April 23 2020 15: 10 New
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            Quote: Trilobite Master
            The agreement was concluded no later than 1229. Once again, carefully read the article relating to the Tatars, and, considering that the agreement is "international", tripartite, try to imagine what the parties were guided by, including this article in such a serious agreement. Assumptions have to be made regarding the goals, routes and fate of this embassy. Regarding the fact that it was and was in Smolensk and somehow prevented the Germans from their trading yard, I think there can be no doubt.
            I carefully read it again.
            “And on which courtyards are the Germans or the guest of the Germans, do not place the prince in that courtyard of either a Tatar or any other ambassador”

            The agreement prohibits neighborhood with any embassy, ​​and not just with the "Tatars".
            It is possible to name two reasons:
            - quite a healthy fear of becoming infected,
            - unwillingness is under one roof with the Gentiles, with any Gentiles.
            In 1229 - 1230gg. “That very summer, the pestilence is strong in Smolensz, having made four skudelnitsa and putting in two 16 thousand, and in the third 7000, and in the fourth 9000. Be quick for two summers.”

            And here https://topwar.ru/21872-chernaya-smert-v-rossii.html

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Regarding the fact that it was and was in Smolensk and somehow prevented the Germans from their trading yard, I think there can be no doubt.

            Any specialist should have doubts, always.
            You are trying to pass off an assumption as indisputable evidence.
  • 3x3zsave April 23 2020 06: 36 New
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    Bravo, Michael! good
    I believed, I was hoping!
  • depressant April 23 2020 07: 23 New
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    Yes, the article was impressive. It is written thoroughly! Thoroughly, thoughtfully, with an analysis of every little thing and valid conclusions based on it. This, in my opinion! It turns out that the opponents knew about each other. Personally, my school textbook had the idea that the Mongols fell like snow on their heads, and the loss is a consequence of the fact that Russia had no idea about their existence. They looked like a locust to her. A sudden natural disaster. It turns out they knew. They did not attach importance.
    To the author - my respect hi
    1. tihonmarine April 23 2020 09: 08 New
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      Quote: depressant
      Personally, my school textbook had the idea that the Mongols fell like snow on their heads, and the loss is a consequence of the fact that Russia had no idea about their existence.

      You are right in school textbooks about this period a lot was controversial. In the older textbooks of the Stalin era there was more truth, they were still based on pre-revolutionary textbooks. And everyone wrote that the invasion was a surprise, although in Russia they already knew that in 1220 two tumens from Iran fell on Azerbaijan, and then on the Georgian kingdom, and the Georgians fought back. After the capture of Derbent by fraud, these Tumen moved to the Alans and Kipchaks. The Alans were defeated, and the Kipchaks fled to Kievan Rus and, together with Russian troops, participated in the battle of Kalka. Then in 1235 Batu Khan conquered Transcaucasia, and in 1237 he sent troops from Kazakhstan to Russia. Russian princes knew about the capture of Transcaucasia, but did nothing to meet the enemy.
      1. Hantengri April 23 2020 12: 14 New
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        Quote: tihonmarine
        Russian princes knew about the capture of Transcaucasia, but did nothing to meet the enemy.

        And with what, in fact, they would go to "meet"? Against 2 battered tumens, the whole coalition scraped 7-8 thousand heavy cavalry to Kalka. Those. 7-8000 vs 14-16 The result is known.
        Suppose all the princes would unite, collect from all of Russia, for the “meeting”, 15 thousand heavy cavalry against 4 full-blooded Tumen. Those. 15 000 against 40 000 ... Do you think this time it would have worked better?
        1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 12: 54 New
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          Uh ... didn’t you read the description of the battle on Kalka even from the annals?

          What the fuck is 7-8 thousand heavy cavalry and nothing more against 14-16 thousand - well, yes, obviously heavy - for Subudai and Jebe?

          Did you forget about the Polovtsy? And the infantry, too?

          Cavalry, even heavy, is not a panacea at any time. The heavy horse of the time was felt armor, and a long broadsword, + a light peak. Dismounting in battle is the norm. These are not the knights of solid medieval knights, before similar in those steppes - these are already the times of Tamerlane, and even that is not much.

          There is a double superiority in forces, and they defeated them stupidly because everyone fought for themselves, and without a single command they crushed them in parts.

          The Bulgars, according to all estimates, also defeated by an equal or equal number, there, with superior forces, an ambush, and took it from the march.
          1. Hantengri April 23 2020 18: 53 New
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            Quote: AllBiBek
            Did you forget about the Polovtsy?

            I repent. And brodniks too. Although these are not clear in which camp should be recorded.
            Quote: AllBiBek
            And the infantry, too?

            On the infantry 2 questions torment me:
            Question No. 1 (tactical): What was she supposed to do there, on the battlefield? Discipline "Stand and die." (c) under a hail of Mongol arrows? What for? Why was she needed there at all (if, of course, she wasn’t a direct analogue of the Genoese arbalester, with bends, or English archers with a longbow)?

            Question No. 2 (logistic): From about. Khortitsa, until the battle site, the army walked for 8 or 9 days “in exile,“ driving out the horses. ”What infantry, too, all these 9 days, was rushing at a large trot, ahead of the cavalry, on their own two?
            Quote: AllBiBek
            The heavy horse of the time was felt armor, and a long broadsword, + a light peak.

            Who? Do the Mongol? May be...
            Quote: AllBiBek
            There is a double advantage in power

            Those. Kotyan Sutoevich, in your opinion, set approx. 24 thousand riders?
            The remnants of the Kotyana horde that migrated to Hungary totaled 40 thousand people.
            If we assume that the Mongols managed to exterminate as many as 0,5 of the whole horde (which is unrealistic a lot), then we get the original horde number of 80 thousand (including women of old people and children).
            => If Khan Khan put up 24 thousand on Kalka, then we get the mobilization ability of his horde = 30%.
            Isn't it dofiga?
            Quote: AllBiBek
            and defeated them stupidly because everyone fought for themselves, and without a single command they crushed them in parts.

            It is indisputable.
            1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 23: 03 New
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              1. Campaign, yes. She took the brunt of the attack, while her cavalry was looking for the moment to launch a counter attack.
              2. The military logistics of those times is a complicated thing, but the foot rats were sent earlier, stupidly because they are easier to assemble and equip. Relatively quickly gathered princely squads, but - this is a few hundred horses, not more. While the boyars and the children of the boyars are gathering, let the last button come up to the caftan of the last grid ...
              Somehow I reason.

              The rati on foot usually went to the Bulgarians, or ... Well, let's call ushkunikov "river infantry".

              4. Brodniks were there for themselves, apparently. According to the principle “it’s easier to beat the enemy together”, and the Mongols are definitely not friends, an unknown tribe. The Kipchaks and the Russians are more or less familiar, including trading partners as well.

              5. The standard approach is one warrior from the wagon, that is, every fifth adult (they grew up early then), but in the case of total mobilization - where did Kotyan go? - Everyone who could took up arms.

              How many years have passed, from Kalka to the exodus to Hungary? The kids grew up, got in line. At that time, 13-14 years old - can already fight.
        2. tihonmarine April 23 2020 13: 12 New
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          Quote: HanTengri
          Do you think it would be better this time?

          It is obvious that there was great disunity, there was no centralized state, and all the more so, and the Mongols already had centralization and the army. Although they wrote in the textbooks that they were wild nomads, they also had modern equipment at that time, not to mention a mobile army with strict discipline. You can only envy.
      2. Diviz 11 June 2020 23: 28 New
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        But you were thinking about what was happening in this territory of Iran (including territories from Troy to India) after Alexander the Great went to India. Think about it and maybe you are aware of what has happened since the 5th century BC. to 13 in our era. in your text about Kipchaks there is a flaw. By the way from 5 in BC and 13 in AD nor the fact that 1800 years. It should be less than 200 to 300 years or more.
    2. ANB
      ANB April 23 2020 14: 26 New
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      Most likely attached. And they were getting ready. But the Mongols prepared better.
  • DMB 75 April 23 2020 08: 47 New
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    Thanks for the work, I am intrigued by the sequel. I will look forward to it!
    1. tihonmarine April 23 2020 14: 08 New
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      Quote: DMB 75
      .I look forward to!

      Support.
  • Korsar4 April 23 2020 09: 06 New
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    Thank you, Michael. It is also a poetic language, not only the logical structure of the presentation.
    "From Banana-Lemon Singapore to Novgorod Cranberry Swamps."

    Sun Tzu and data on the Mongolian embassies are well combined. However, not so much information has been preserved. Something has to be assumed.
  • Undecim April 23 2020 10: 41 New
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    Of course, in the XIII century. not a single state (except, possibly, China) had political or strategic intelligence as such:
    Here I want to make some clarifications.
    Strategic intelligence refers to military intelligence, which receives information about the strategic potential and strategic intentions of the reconnaissance object, most often the state, and allows you to develop your own strategy for the highest political or military leadership.
    Political intelligence operates with information about the domestic and foreign policies of a foreign state.
    In one form or another, there have existed since the inception of the first states, and a detailed description of the tasks and goals of strategic and political intelligence has been left not only by the Chinese, but also by the Indians, Egyptians, Jews, Aztecs.
    For example, the ancient Indian political and economic treatise of Arthashastra (XNUMXth century BC according to classical theory) describes in detail the collection and analysis of intelligence information, various espionage methods as necessary means for maintaining and expanding the state.
    Therefore, if we accept the version that there was such a state as the Mongol Empire, then the presence of strategic intelligence in it cannot be denied.
    1. Trilobite Master April 23 2020 12: 12 New
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      Quote: Undecim
      Therefore, if we accept the version that there was such a state as the Mongol Empire, then the presence of strategic intelligence in it cannot be denied.

      Intelligence exists as much as war has existed since ancient times. This is clear. Those who are mainly involved in this intelligence are also written in the article - diplomats, merchants, missionaries. I see the innovation of Genghis Khan in the creation of a constantly operating, in wartime and in peacetime state body with ranks, positions and employees on state salaries, whose functions included the constant collection and analysis of intelligence information.
      To be honest, I don’t know if there were anywhere analogues of such a service before the Mongols, except perhaps in China, but you won’t recall it without a hint. Typically, such services revolved around its founder, a single person and ceased to exist with his death or departure from public affairs. The service of the yurtaja with its anginsins continued to exist after the death of Genghis Khan, in any case, it definitely functioned under Ugadei.
      1. Liam April 23 2020 12: 32 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        I honestly don’t know if there were anywhere analogues of such a service before the Mongols, except in China

        Have you ever heard, for example, about agentes in rebus in the Roman Empire?
      2. Undecim April 23 2020 12: 36 New
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        I honestly do not know if there were anywhere analogues of such a service before the Mongols
        For the Greeks, I will not answer offhand; in Rome, the Consilium Principis performed such functions unambiguously.
        1. Liam April 23 2020 12: 39 New
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          Yes, in any more or less stable state of the ancient era, such services were on an ongoing basis. From Persia to Cartagen and Rome
          1. Undecim April 23 2020 12: 45 New
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            I agree, it’s just that the Roman period has the most detailed historiography, though English-speaking.
            1. Liam April 23 2020 12: 51 New
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              The conquests of Cyrus, the campaigns of Macedon, Cartagen, which for several centuries kept on trade and espionage more than military force, all this could not happen without good professional intelligence
    2. Edward Vashchenko April 23 2020 12: 55 New
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      All the same, "strategic intelligence" is a very conditional term and extremely modernized.
      When we talk about these concepts, we should not forget that the view of the world, the distance and size of states, the power of countries was very, very different from the modern one.
      Modernization in history is not the right approach.
      The axioms of history, which today seem unshakable, were not at all among contemporaries, an example of this is darkness.
      For example, the capture of Constantinople in 1543 - today it seems certain that one city could not resist Ottoman power, but sources report that there was no unity in the Fatih camp, the majority tended to withdraw from the city, fearing a Western reaction, and we We say "strategic intelligence."
      It still works today, to put it more correctly, with a “finger to the sky”, and even in those days, the dominance of the “old Listen” (M. Blok), dragons, sorcerers, giants and witches, demons - strategic intelligence is an extremely dubious matter .
      But we must pay tribute to the Mongols: bribery, sabotage, ethnic contradictions, the creation of a 5-column - all this they created skillfully in the war.
      This is the classic tactics of nomads, but only with the involvement of a significantly, significantly larger resource than was previously used.
      1. Undecim April 23 2020 13: 09 New
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        view of the world, the distance and size of states, the power of countries was very, very different from modern
        Doubtfully different. But the principle - to evaluate the potential and intentions of the enemy to develop the most optimal version of their own actions - has remained unchanged. The scale is only different. And the essence of the strategy is the effective use of available resources to achieve the main goal - it is the same in the ancient world, in the modern one.
        1. Edward Vashchenko April 23 2020 14: 47 New
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          And the essence of the strategy is the effective use of available resources to achieve the main goal - it is the same in the ancient world, in the modern one.

          Absolutely.
          I’m a little about something else, there’s no us to them, and from here to here: there was also a huge evolution.
          In the sources this is clearly visible, but modern “modernizers” like to generalize, but in fact, a lot was “pointed”, gradually crystallized out.
          I myself often write about concentration of power,
          but this is only in the movies, one enemy prudently preparing for many years for an insidious attack, and the other, so peaceful, sits on the dutar playing. In realities, the war went on non-stop, for a long time there was simply no time to develop strategies.
          But in a nomadic war, everything happened with a swoop, yes, what's nomadic there, how much did Hitler prepare for an attack on the USSR? But in the Middle Ages and close this time was not.
          Everything is simpler, took the "language" or "languages", tried (this is necessary), learned tactical data, killed, galloped.
          Even today, “professional” military men occasionally fight, live with their families and war is a craft for them, and for a nomad, war is life, and that is a big difference. He begins to kill from the age of 6, training on old prisoners of war. In the saddle (on the "armored car") from birth, "tactics" has been studying since that time, hunting is the same war, all life: either or - in the here and now mode.
          It seems to me, in this connection, that Russia and its city-states (according to Soviet theory: feudal principalities) had no chance, from a word at all: Russia was not able to reach such a concentration that, by the way, Kalka clearly showed.
          Such are the thoughts.
          Yours faithfully,
          hi
          1. Mihaylov April 23 2020 14: 53 New
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            Quote: Edward Vashchenko
            It seems to me, in this connection, that Russia and its city-states (according to Soviet theory: feudal principalities) had no chance, from a word at all: Russia was not able to reach such a concentration that, by the way, Kalka clearly showed.

            Edward, welcome
            I suppose, even if, purely theoretically, to assume such a concentration, the Mongols would be extremely grateful: thanks for bringing everyone to one place, no need to run after you through the forests.
            1. Edward Vashchenko April 23 2020 15: 30 New
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              Sergey welcome
              that is so.
          2. Undecim April 23 2020 15: 13 New
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            how much did Hitler prepare for an attack on the USSR?
            Specifically, “Barbarossa” was preparing for a year. But not from scratch and not from scratch.
            As for me, you really simplify it by presenting the functioning of the states of that time as a nomadic horde, driven exclusively by hunger and fighting offensively.
            1. Edward Vashchenko April 23 2020 15: 47 New
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              Of course, it is difficult to accurately determine the level of development of the Mongols of this period, but by all indications, this is the late stage of the tribal system, on the eve of the early state, which became the Mongol empire.
              Somewhere the tribal nobility quickly took advantage of the higher system of government, as after the conquest of states in China, or in Central Asia, somewhere - no.
              There is no particular revelation, the Huns also enjoyed the “fruits” of more developed political systems (China, both parts of the Roman Empire), Avars - Byzantine, especially Proto-Bulgarians.
              That is, at this stage, with a serious military advantage, the capture of more developed countries is not a problem.
              And yes, this horde is constantly very, very hungry)
              Not for what Rubruks writes, they suffer hardships in order not to fill the belly to the dump at the expense of the vanquished.
              Something like that.
              Best regards
  • Hantengri April 23 2020 11: 34 New
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    Thank you, Michael. As always, everything is logical and thorough.
  • faterdom April 23 2020 12: 41 New
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    Yeah ... West-centric model of the world: backward, and therefore the evil hordes from the East constantly invade the limits of "civilization" and destroy everything there.
    In fact, everything is much more complicated, and just the outbreak of Mongolian expansion did not appear from scratch, crushing many superpowers of that time: Chinese, Khorezm, Persian, Arab, Russian.
    In many ways, of course, such success is based on the personality factor of Temuchin (of unknown national and genetic affiliation), but enough for great-grandchildren.
    At the very least, strategic intelligence combined with engineering support for the assault on cities (not such a simple matter), logistics of large horse armies, their controllability and coordination of actions (and this is the second part of staff support, except for intelligence - communications!) - this is not backwardness , and a clear superiority over any Western or Middle Eastern armies.
    1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 14: 57 New
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      So if she were the first of her kind ...
      There were still the Atilla’s Huns, there were still Seljuks like snow on their heads to all the multi-barrel Turks of the Caspian Sea, who hadn’t been troubled since the Khazar times, and here came the real Ashin with a bunch of wild, evil, and hungry Turks and Ugrians ... These came to Constantinople, and bit off such a good piece of objectively the best lands on the entire continent under their Empire.

      In fairness, there were corresponding movers in the opposite direction, the same Aryans to India, or the Mithannites to Iran, or the resettlement of peoples in the Middle Sarmatian period ...

      Alas, with written not a lot (.
      1. faterdom April 23 2020 15: 10 New
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        Nevertheless: the scale and impact on civilization as a whole. Only perhaps to put Alexander’s denia nearby: he won everything he reached, his life span was not enough, otherwise someone knows. Hellenization of the conquered lands, but with assimilation and their culture, the creation of a number of satrapies (uluses) with dynasties lasting several centuries.
        And the same Iasi of Genghis Khan, diplomatic immunity, a census (the first time in Russia was carried out under the Mongols - a planned economy, after all!) - this is progress, definitely, we must admit.
        And after all - the religious tolerance of the Mongols is not such a frequent visitor among the conquerors.
        Probably, the movement of the Aryans by the first harnessed horses was also victorious and fateful for humanity. Unfortunately, besides the fact that it took place and in which areas little is known.
        The Huns are a one-time fire in Europe, not constructive. The Türks are a great influence, but this is an impact of a thousand years, and not 10-20, like the Macedonian or Temuchin.
        1. AllBiBek April 23 2020 15: 28 New
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          Well, then a little I will open the reverse side of such a thing as the first census in Russia. So.

          Ceramics. Compared with domongol - high-quality local samples disappear, rough rural - begins to dominate in cities. Ornaments are simplified, part - disappears altogether, glazed - becomes a rarity. True, it appears, and - more and more from decade to decade - "Mongolian Teflon." Ie - glazed ceramics, glass as a non-stick coating.

          Drag.metals: a sharp drop in the amount of silver in everyday life and graves. Jewelry - mainly copper, quality - is deteriorating, some of the tricks are forgotten for two hundred years. The total amount of copper is also small.

          Iron. The biggest trouble is with him. Little of it, catastrophically small. The knives are ground to the size of a scalpel, just the same in Greenland, where it was not there at all.

          Glass Central Asian beads appear. Quality is rubbish, but big beads.

          Cattle: large - very small, both in size and quantity. Sheep - almost disappear, the number of goats and chickens is increasing. Keeping pigs is a sign of prosperity.

          The amount of rickets in burials is growing. Average growth is also decreasing. Signs of malnutrition.

          And all this in total - but there were non-stick pots and large beads, yes. "But we have a pizza hut!".

          So the change in living standards and welfare turned out honestly.
          1. faterdom April 23 2020 15: 54 New
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            Well, everything is in line with: the strongest influence. And not with a plus sign, of course, the robbed never received a plus, and from Alexander too. It is now in Tajikistan and Afghanistan they like to consider themselves "descendants of the Greco-Bactrian kingdom", and then many were simply killed and robbed on the ground. And then they forced to understand what they were ordered in Greek.
          2. Operator April 23 2020 22: 11 New
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            The most important Russian borrowing from the Mongols is the centralization of everything and everything.

            The centralized Grand Duchy of Moscow annexed the northeastern Russian principalities, got rid of the Mongol vassality, turned the Kazan and Astrakhan khanates into dust, adopted the title of Kingdom (Caesarism - Caesarism), etc.
  • Edward Vashchenko April 23 2020 12: 42 New
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    Michael,
    let me admire, excellent work and syllable.
    Thank you!
    Not entirely personally, I agree conceptually, it seems to me that in your reasoning there is a certain share of modernization of events.
    But overall, very good!
    1. Pane Kohanku April 23 2020 13: 07 New
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      Not entirely personally, I agree conceptually, it seems to me that in your reasoning there is a certain share of modernization of events.

      Edward, I think that both our authors and pleasant interlocutors are gradually being added to "our historical circle". Colleagues, it's expensive! hi
      1. Edward Vashchenko April 23 2020 14: 29 New
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        This is especially nice.
        Michael wonderful dot on the "e"!
        Super!
        1. Pane Kohanku April 23 2020 14: 51 New
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          Michael wonderful dot on the "e"!

          "Bravo, the French, bravo!" (Prince P. Bagration, Battle of Borodino, looking at Marshal Davout’s corps marching in the attack) good drinks
          1. Phil77 April 23 2020 16: 06 New
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            Hi Nikolay, did this phrase of Bagration remind you of anything from the earliest times? hiOh hell !!! Thanks to Michael for a wonderful article !!!!! hi
            1. Pane Kohanku April 23 2020 17: 15 New
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              From an early time?

              Sergey, honestly, no. hi What phrase should I recall? drinks
              1. Phil77 April 23 2020 17: 59 New
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                Yes, you know, it was somehow inspired by the year 1745. The battle of Fontenoy, the Scots are approaching the positions of the French guard and the response of the Commander of the Scots is followed by the answer of Count d'Otroch:
                - * After you gentlemen, the British! *. The desperate Frenchman did not know that the Scots were coming at him! bully
                There is a certain similarity, probably in the nobility of the parties.
                1. Phil77 April 23 2020 18: 15 New
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                  Oh, of course I missed * shoot *! My apologies! hi
                  1. Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 10: 31 New
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                    Oh, of course I missed * shoot *! My apologies!

                    Exactly how I forgot! An episode of mutual courtesy at Fontenoy!
                    1. Phil77 April 24 2020 10: 45 New
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                      Hi Nikolay! And I wrote to you in PM on this episode! A kind of nostalgia! hi laughing
                      1. Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 11: 19 New
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                        Hi Nikolay! And I wrote to you in PM on this episode! A kind of nostalgia!

                        some bastard goes through the profile, and sculpts the cons.
                        I should have a pee in the evening. A couple of articles are unfinished. Including, and about the "gallant age." drinks
    2. Trilobite Master April 24 2020 00: 52 New
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      Edward, thanks. hi
      You and Undecim’s colleague “oh (thanks for this dialogue, I read with pleasure) have revealed a little the essence of your“ disagreement. ”Yes, I’m ready to agree, some“ fundamentality ”or something like scientific coldness and impartiality is not enough for me. I'm still in a hurry to make discoveries , including in history. smile
      But, nevertheless, it is incredibly glad that such a company has gathered here today.
  • WayKheThuo April 23 2020 12: 42 New
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    Author! You're a big lad!
    Thank you!
    I look forward to continuing.
    1. rich April 23 2020 13: 43 New
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      I join Victor. Article is good good And comments are just lovely.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Operator April 23 2020 21: 33 New
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    Quote: AllBiBek
    Tatars are tribal unions

    Not only the Volga Tatars are mestizos based on the carriers of the Ugrophinsky N1c1 and Aryan R1a (Black Sea subclade), and the Mongols are purebred carriers of their titular haplogroup C2.

    Another thing is that the Türks (Huns and Mongols) assimilated the Tatars linguistically and culturally, as did the Bulgars - mainly carriers of the Erbinsk R1b.

    PS For Russians, for a long time, all Turkic-speaking tribes (including Azerbaijanis) were Tatars.
  • Pellikan April 24 2020 00: 13 New
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    Kak only saw about the empire of the Mongol-Tatars did not even read this nonsense. You see, he has the main question, "from where they all knew .." How much these paid-up historians will powder our brains, everyone already knows that there was no Mongol-Tatar yoke, and he again ... like the devil from a snuff-box. They would have taken it up, but at last they had written the true history of the Russian Land.
  • Trilobite Master April 24 2020 00: 56 New
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    Colleagues, thank you all for your comments, praise and criticism. hi
    I could not participate in the discussion today normally, I did not expect the article to appear today, I apologize.
    But, it seems to me that even without me it was interesting to you, which I am extremely happy.
    Thanks again to everyone. hi
    1. Smoke April 24 2020 04: 09 New
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      I read the article, and as if returned 7-8 years ago, when VO was a normal information resource on which a question could be clarified in a fairly short and short time.
  • Brigadier April 24 2020 05: 12 New
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    As I understand it, the author’s ancestor served with the “Mongolo-Tatars” in a serious position and left some papers to the grateful descendant, which he successfully deciphered and now appears to our eyes?

    Or is it just one of many versions?
  • zlobny tatarin April 24 2020 08: 27 New
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    The author contradicts himself. Either no one can read the letter to the Hungarian king, then it turns out that the Mongolian polyglot ambassador has long been sitting in Hungary. But the Hungarian king does not know about him, and the Mongol khan is also ignorant.
    1. Trilobite Master April 24 2020 13: 47 New
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      “In the country of Hungarians”, Julian means those “Hungarians” whom he found at the foot of the Ural Mountains and for the sake of discovering and converting to Christianity which, in fact, his expedition was organized. Now these "Hungarians" are identified with the Bashkirs.
      So the meeting with the "polyglot ambassador" did not take place in the Kingdom of Hungary, but between the Volga and the Ural Mountains.
  • iouris April 24 2020 14: 08 New
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    Intelligence is good. Counterintelligence inefficiency is bad. But the main thing is the meanings. What is the war for? What is her purpose? Why is the idea that formulates this goal becomes a material force, captures the masses?
  • swyatoslav April 24 2020 16: 47 New
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    Cool fantasy in the style of pseudo-documentary!
    The genre of "popadantsy" is resting .... the author has applied so much fiction to write an article - it is immediately clear that the dreamer is pretty!
  • Sochi April 27 2020 19: 35 New
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    RAVE!!! here logic does not smell, from the word at all !!! Well, a nomadic (scattered people) cannot create an empire ... Nonsense. Not possessing key technologies of that time (metal processing), not having their deposits to create an army capable of waging war in a vast space, and indeed the war as such, except for small (read bandit) raids ... and further throughout the history of that time, solid docking and pulling various delusions by the ears. All this is a huge hoax !!!
  • Smity 4 May 2020 14: 29 New
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    Was there a boy?
  • Diviz 11 June 2020 15: 00 New
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    And you think that we print the text, it can be said that our writing has reached perfection. And if we assume that our writing has degraded, the words lengthened and imaginative thinking was limited. How do you like this version? Due to the degradation of lifestyle.
    If you mention the names of Genghis Khan. Let's announce the whole list. Tamerlane Attila Kuchum Spitman Kir Xerxes Pope) some. Alexander the Great Taktamysh Hannibal. Even the Amazons of Masgetta, etc. of which you know. The territory of Russia occupies most of Eurasia. It is impossible to draw conclusions without taking into account the chronology of historical events in other countries belonging to this continent. Wikipedia to the rescue.
    For example, countries: Bactria Sogdiana, China, Kashimi, Greece. Okay, shorter wikipedia to help. One conclusion was made for me that after Alexander the Great walked to India, this territory fell into decay, of its developmental cultures. The cities of Babylon, Illion and other cities were, as they say, softer reinforced.