What place does Russia occupy in the global machine tool industry


Speaking about the level of development of machine tool industry in the country, we are, in fact, talking not so much about a separate industry as a major indicator of the economic development of the state, which very clearly describes the level of its growth or, on the contrary, degradation.


Countries with a "killed" industry do not need any machines for nothing. If a country does not manufacture or at least does not import a certain range of equipment, its affairs are bad.

It should be noted that inviting someone to guess the state, which is the absolute world leader in the production of machine tools, is obviously a losing business. China, of course. Developing their own national economy, the comrades from the Middle Kingdom initially sought to achieve as little as possible dependence on other people's technologies, and they succeeded completely. Moreover, the country is increasingly shifting the center of gravity in the development of this industry to the production of sophisticated (smart) industrial machines - automated, with computerized control.

Together with China, Japan and Germany are among the three world leaders in the production and, consequently, export of machine tools. They account for at least half of the output of these products worldwide. The United States, South Korea, Italy, Taiwan, Switzerland follow them behind (at least twice). The share of other countries is estimated at a percentage and a half, or even less.

What is characteristic, the same China, the United States, Germany top the list of not only exporters, but also importers of machine tools. Nothing surprising here, however, is not present: modern industrial machines and mechanisms have already achieved so much narrow specialization that it is often even easier for a very developed country to purchase some very rare machine tool in small quantities abroad than to spend money on its own development and production.

And what about Russia? In truth, so far there are no special reasons for joy and pride.

In the Soviet Union, machine tool building was developed at a very high level, but then ... We all know what happened next: the total de-industrialization of the country and the collapse of everything that could be destroyed. The production of machine tools alone during the 90s was reduced by 15 times. The situation is even worse on the most advanced of the areas - the creation of the most advanced numerically controlled machines (CNC). In 1990, in the RSFSR alone, about 17 thousand of them were released. By the end of the “dashing 90s” the output was reduced by 167 times!

In fact, production growth in this industry has been outlined literally in recent years. Directly, it can be associated with the revival of the armed forces, a new impetus for the development that the military-industrial complex of Russia received. According to domestic manufacturers of modern industrial equipment, it is precisely enterprises of the military-industrial complex that account for at least 80% of the orders they receive. Russian machine tool building, though little by little, is being reborn. It is alarming that this is mainly due to the growth in the production of machine tools of low complexity, with which no breakthrough can be made either in the development of innovative technologies or in real import substitution. So, the production of all the same CNC machines in the period from 2016 to 2017 showed an increase of only 270 units (according to the association "Stankoinstrument"), which, of course, is not a sufficient indicator for a country like Russia.

Today, Russia's place in the global machine tool industry is, to put it mildly, modest. Last year, Russia was not in the top twenty. Ahead is not only the industrial giants of the world like China and the USA, but also such countries as Austria, Spain, Brazil. The Russian position in the general list usually fits into a percentage share with the designation "and other countries."

But worthy of development, in need of implementation, domestic experts in the field of machine tools are available. Nevertheless, one should not forget that this industry is impossible without attracting both a significant amount of material resources and highly qualified personnel. To ensure all this is real only at the state level. And this is absolutely necessary to do!

Striving for the development of the Russian economy, it must be understood that its growth will not happen without the powerful development of machine tool industry. This industry is "backbone", because we are talking about the production of means of production, the true foundation of the entire domestic industry. Without this, all the talk about "import substitution" and the deliverance of Russia from raw materials export dependence will remain talk.
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website of the XI St. Petersburg International Innovation Forum
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  1. Svarog 18 March 2020 08: 36 New
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    And what about Russia? In truth, so far there are no special reasons for joy and pride.

    Well, how can it be ... maybe Petrov, where are you? Tell me how Russia got up from its knees ..
    In the Soviet Union, machine tool building was developed at a very high level, but then ... We all know what happened next: the total de-industrialization of the country and the collapse of everything that could be destroyed. The production of machine tools alone during the 90s was reduced by 15 times.

    Already the 90s can not be remembered, 30 years have passed .. It’s the same as in the USSR, remembered at 75, the Second World War .. I don’t remember that under the USSR they would always look back at the 45th year ..
    1. Malyuta 18 March 2020 09: 08 New
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      In the modern Russian Federation, there is practically no machine tool industry, machine tool factories have been destroyed in 20 years, it was deliberately destroyed, just like the class of skilled workers was destroyed and, in turn, the vocational education system was destroyed.
      It must be noted that the production of means of production in the Russian Federation has been eliminated!
      At the moment, on the enterprises of the military-industrial complex, mainly imported CNC machines from Toshiba, Hitachi or Chinese are used.
      PS
      In Japan, a leading engineer at Panasonic, 70-year-old Pirate Hurava tried to commit suicide by tearing his stomach with a sword - that is, by making hara-kiri. In a suicide note, he wrote that the laws of honor do not allow him to continue developing on the basis of the Little Tricks publications in the Soviet journal Science and Life, as well as patents of Soviet engineers stolen or bought up for nothing.



      According to Japanese media, the police initially tried to hide the contents of the note, but it turned out that Pirato Hurava photographed it and sent it to friends. In his message, he wrote that he could not continue "to conduct work that is saturated from the bottom and top, built on theft and blessed with dishonor."

      “Everything that we have achieved, we have achieved, thanks to Soviet engineers. The whole modern so-called high-tech is based on their patents, some of which date back to the 1960s, when we could not even dream of something high-tech. Then we stole these patents, I saw spy microfilms transferred by bribed traitors from the USSR We bought their patents for nothing when their country collapsed and they had nothing to feed us. We are considered to be great inventors in the world, but in fact a great inventor is a Soviet engineer, who alone or I could do with two ordinary toilet plungers what very expensive manipulators do at our factories today.We are in bloom, and Russian engineers, hungry, powerless, deprived of everything and forgotten by everyone who today are only able to build a house for ducking at the premier’s cottage, and at one time they built a space house for Belka and Strelka.I can no longer work in the industry, which appeared by deception and is based on failure wisdom. My life has been devoted to this deception. “I covered my name with shame, so I want all my financial savings to be transferred to the Russian Academy of Sciences,” he wrote.
      1. Procyon lotor 18 March 2020 09: 51 New
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        Fake about a Japanese inventor who supposedly killed himself a long-gone topic

        https://factcheck.kg/ru/post/83
        1. Freeman 18 March 2020 12: 11 New
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          Quote: Procyon Lotor
          Fake about a Japanese inventor who supposedly killed himself a long-gone topic

          https://factcheck.kg/ru/post/83

          But many still believe that "the Internet cannot lie."
          And he doesn’t lie.
          Primary source website panorama.pub,

          who launched this "news" (https://panorama.pub/6759-vedushhij-inzhener-panasonic.html), honestly warns (in small print) -
          Satirical edition "Panorama". All texts on this web resource are grotesque parodies of reality and are not real news..
      2. Victor N 18 March 2020 09: 59 New
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        Before crying about machine tool building, you need to decide how many machines you need for production. Achievements in the USSR - in fact, a big failure: there were more machine tools in the country than working machine operators. As a result, the machines were not really used to the full extent, but their cost was debited to the products, increasing their cost. Information on the loading of metalworking equipment was regularly collected by statistics (reporting forms 1tp (mash), 1-tp (shift) and was available to everyone. But the Gosplan continued to increase the production of useless products. Very expensive unique machines were ugly - several hours a year (!) "There was special statistical reporting. Moreover, similar machines were available and were idle at neighboring enterprises. For example, in Kramatorsk, at NKMZ, SKMZ, KZTS, Energomashspetsstal. Depreciation was significantly lower than standard, the machines are still in use and will still serve. They will not need to be replaced soon. The hidden advantage of such machines is their zero book value.
        After 1991, many almost new machines were discarded as unnecessary.
        So do not rush to shout "KARAUL!"
        1. Malyuta 18 March 2020 10: 15 New
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          Quote: Victor N
          Achievements in the USSR - in fact, a big failure: there were more machine tools in the country than working machine operators.

          In fact, you are lying, either intentionally or in ignorance.
          In the late 80s and early 90s, a massive re-equipment of the industry began on new CNC machines, while vocational education was rebuilt to master the students of this technology. It was prestigious and profitable to work on the latest machines, even old men were retraining for new machines on special courses, organized either at the plants or on the basis of “millet”.
          All replaced machines did not melt into metal, but were carefully preserved in case of war.
          Quote: Victor N
          After 1991, many almost new machines were discarded as unnecessary.

          Complete lie !!! The machines worked while there were orders, they began to destroy them in connection with the new "market" conditions on orders from above, in order to destroy the production itself, and most likely the proletariat, as the grave digger of the bourgeoisie. Both of these goals have been achieved, especially trying to accelerate precisely in the 2000s!
          1. Mestny 18 March 2020 11: 08 New
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            I personally observed in the 80s how foreign equipment was wet in the rain - right in the factory packaging.
            At the same time, operating machines were almost exclusively foreign. The USSR lagged behind by 30-50 in this year, and half a century ago machines continued to work at most enterprises until its end.
            Everything that the USSR built there in terms of CNC was no good either in terms of reliability, accuracy, or element base.
            So there is no need here to sing songs a hundred years ago about the grave digger of the bourgeoisie.
            The USSR was not able in the conditions of the socialist system of the economy to catch up with capitalism in technical terms.
            1. DPN
              DPN 18 March 2020 11: 31 New
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              Chatterbox, specifically Indicate the YEAR!. Your hu "" "" "nya went during perestroika, that is, during the collapse of the country.
              1. Mestny 18 March 2020 11: 48 New
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                You yourself are a talker. Agitators-soulmates, damn it.
                Have a talker and ask for a year. Among mine.
            2. Pivot 18 March 2020 12: 57 New
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              What classes of machines were idle? The USSR was strong in middle and heavy class machines, and if you saw some foreign-made machines, this does not mean that everything was bad with us, of course we can say that we bought in Japan machines capable of processing parts for watches, but then do not be silent that Japan bought from the USSR turning machines of the plant named after Gray hair for the production of hydro turbines.
              1. Evgeny Suslin 20 March 2020 08: 48 New
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                There was such a designer of the Ivanovo machining centers Kabaidze, in these machines only hulls, beds and hydroelectric stations were Russian, the rest was Japanese, Italian, German.
            3. Freeman 18 March 2020 14: 05 New
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              Mestny (Sergey) Today, 11: 08
              I personally observed in the 80s how foreign equipment was wet in the rain - right in the factory packaging

              It was like that. The costs of the planned economy - the equipment was delivered, but they did not give time to readjust the production.
              The director needs to stop production for re-equipment - and he has a “shaft shaft plan”.

              The USSR lagged 30-50 this year


              Yes, at first. not very far behind.
              Here is a Soviet software-controlled machine (a prototype of the CNC) 1958 years.
              ENIMS copy-milling machine with software control (a) and a cabinet with software control equipment (b)

              / TSB Yearbook 1958. page 545. paste /

              The same machine at the 1958 World's Fair in Brussels


              All that the USSR built there in terms of CNC not suitable anywhere for reliabilityneither in accuracy nor in element base.


              If properly maintained, then the hassle did not deliver.
              At one time he worked on this.

              Every day, on the 2nd shift, two machines were put on preventive maintenance (less people worked on the 2nd shift and there were free machines).
              1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 14: 27 New
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                Quote: Freeman
                It was like that. The costs of the planned economy - the equipment was delivered, but they did not give time to readjust the production.

                And we had it. They just said that they are stupidly not allowing to be installed on top. As soon as they made a joint venture, they installed it in an instant, and then the Americans bought the whole plant.
            4. Yury Siritsky 18 March 2020 14: 10 New
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              No need to chat. I’ve worked at the machine for 46 years and I know more about them than you know about me.
              1. smart ass 20 March 2020 06: 10 New
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                And I sold more machines than you worked!))
            5. GTYCBJYTH2021 19 March 2020 05: 08 New
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              Yes, the office bought a lathe — beautiful and brilliant — its 1k62 turned out to be outdated, and that engineers were made to work on direct current, and for cutting pipe threads it was necessary to change gears in the guitar !!!!! .....
            6. bairat 19 March 2020 10: 24 New
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              Imported machines, "superfluous" that would not be an eyesore when commissioning a new workshop, were buried in the ground. We were there in the 8th class to help clean up the territory, our Trudovik ran around pulling boards from their control panels.
            7. antique 19 March 2020 14: 29 New
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              And here is a diagram of the production of machine tools in the new Putin's Russia. Everything is very revealing. The country's leadership does not need production.
              1. antique 19 March 2020 14: 32 New
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                And one more extremely important point. Everyone understands the strategic importance of bearing manufacturing. No wonder all the bearing factories were called GPPs. State Bearing Plant. Because without a bearing you cannot build a machine or a tank. Look at the chart. And the technological level of Russia will become clear. Bearings as well as gunpowder Russia imports. Almost all production has been destroyed. In Putin's time.
                1. KirovMK2 22 March 2020 18: 40 New
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                  https://www.wiki-prom.ru/51/podshipnikovye-zavody.html
                  Here are our GPPs, quite young ones. And when you write that Russia does not produce bearings, you are stupidly lying. Such as you, V.I. Lenin relates to people "a certain substance"
                  1. antique 23 March 2020 18: 28 New
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                    Quote: KirovMK2
                    Here are our GPPs, quite young ones. And when you write that Russia does not produce bearings, you are stupidly lying. Such as you, V.I. Lenin relates to people "a certain substance"

                    I have given a graph of the decline in bearing production. Show us, to all reasonable people, the number of bearings produced, in wonderful new factories. And tell us why these plants are only engaged in the assembly of bearings from ready-made imported kits. I understand who you are and what you are. No need to refer to Lenin. This is not your level.
                    And tell us why Russia, with the great helmsman, imports ready-made bearings.
                    Actually do not answer, I will not communicate with you. The topic is closed.
                    1. Golovan Jack 23 March 2020 18: 48 New
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                      Quote: Antique
                      Show us all reasonable people ...

                      good laughing good ... from the heart! ... laughing

                      Quote: Antique
                      these plants are only engaged in the assembly of bearings from ready-made imported kits

                      Screwdriver assembly of bearings? This is something new in the repertoire of local trolls ...
                    2. KirovMK2 25 March 2020 14: 35 New
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                      These factories themselves produce bearings, rather than assemble, secondly - if it is cheaper to buy bearings for consumer goods, then why not? Or has the production of bicycles, for example, become strategically important? By the way, remind me, the factories that used the bearings produced, in which countries were then and now?
                    3. KirovMK2 25 March 2020 14: 36 New
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                      It's just that your voluminous maniamir, in which everything in Russia is destroyed, is cracking, so you don’t want to answer laughing
                      Since when the production of all bearings, for the same bicycles, has become strategically important. Well, yes, Lenin is definitely your level, if you collect the bearings with a screwdriver laughing laughing
                      Production should cover needs, recall where since 1990 the remaining consumers of bearings that were under the USSR?
              2. Campanella 23 March 2020 18: 05 New
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                And why do they need production, Medvedev, even when he was president, used to say that if we don’t have anything, then we’ll buy it. Shuttle, not a government official.
                And Putin gave him a good mark for his work, which means that he is the same unfortunate ruler.
                Just curious how to end his nats. projects?
                The people are not particularly aware of these national projects, and this despite the fact that the president argued that without the participation of the people, projects cannot be implemented. Everything is sad, they seem to marry us, but we are not in the know)))
            8. Campanella 23 March 2020 17: 45 New
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              You are wrong, the machines bought for Gorbachev's tales were wet. And before him in the country was a normal evolutionary development. The enterprise where I worked launched the construction of an automatic plant, but perestroika and the ensuing victory of liberalism killed everything.
          2. Den717 18 March 2020 11: 36 New
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            Quote: Malyuta
            Complete lie !!! The machines worked while there were orders, they began to destroy them in connection with the new "market" conditions on orders from above, in order to destroy the production itself, and most likely the proletariat, as the grave digger of the bourgeoisie.

            Well, where are we without Marxist-Leninist theory ?! Only it would be necessary to read Jevons, Cairns and others, saying that no one needs machines that fulfill orders for products that are not in demand by the consumer. In short. That order was not needed, it was not needed at all. So the enterprises working at the "warehouse" died at a loss. The "grave digger of the bourgeoisie" works, but what he does is nobody buys. Here you have the proletariat, from the word "in flight". No bourgeois will kill the chicken that lays the golden eggs, but if the eggs are rotten initially, then the chicken will be served only in soup.
            1. Caretaker 18 March 2020 20: 25 New
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              Quote: Den717
              No bourgeois will kill the chicken that lays the golden eggs, but if the eggs are rotten initially, then the chicken will be served only in soup.

              This will not kill his chicken, but someone else’s easily.
              They bought through dummies and went bankrupt. Competition.
              1. Den717 18 March 2020 21: 57 New
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                Quote: Caretaker
                They bought through dummies and went bankrupt. Competition.

                Demonstrate with an example from the 2000s. Just do not shop shoe repair.
                Quote: Caretaker
                This will not kill his chicken, but someone else’s easily.

                If you, no matter through whom, bought the chicken, then it is already yours.
                1. Caretaker 18 March 2020 22: 27 New
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                  Quote: Den717
                  Demonstrate with an example from the 2000s.

                  In the 90s, Westerners bankrupt enterprises that were competitive.
                  Examples https://topwar.ru/30555-spisok-unichtozhennyh-naibolee-krupnyh-i-vysokotehnologichnyh-predpriyatiy.html
          3. 210ox 18 March 2020 11: 48 New
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            Yes, of course it is. The Magnets growing on mushrooms and all Auchans there do not need CNC machines.
        2. aybolyt678 19 March 2020 13: 02 New
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          I believe that this problem can be solved by providing every Russian with a 3D printer. The state must provide these printers with a variety of printheads and consumables. So we will solve the problem of consumer goods production and currency preservation laughing,
          In addition, these printers must be able to print other printers! Unemployment is over !! wassat
          1. TANKISTONE 21 March 2020 20: 37 New
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            The chain will become shorter if you immediately print the currency ...
            1. aybolyt678 21 March 2020 22: 37 New
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              Quote: TANKISTONE
              The chain will become shorter if you immediately print the currency ...

              I agree. provided that everything from the printer to the inks will be locally produced laughing
      3. Dmitry V. 18 March 2020 10: 06 New
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        Quote: Malyuta
        In Japan, a leading engineer at Panasonic, 70-year-old Pirate Hurava tried to commit suicide


        Feykomet :))
        https://factcheck.kg/ru/post/83
        A search for the content of the news in neither English nor Japanese yielded results. A scientist named Haruto Tagawa does not exist, but an engineer named Haruo Tagawa can be found. Moreover, in the social network linkedin position is designated as Chief Engineer. He recorded many patents in the video industry. But as mentioned above, not a single mention in the Japanese media that the Panasonic engineer was trying to commit suicide.
        1. Malyuta 18 March 2020 10: 32 New
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          Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
          Feykomet :))

          Quote: Procyon Lotor
          Fake about a Japanese inventor who supposedly killed himself a long-gone topic

          Even if we assume that this is a fake.
          But you will not deny that the development of Soviet scientists, engineers, designers, enthusiasts were exported abroad in tons for a penny. You cannot deny the fact that a mobile phone and a microwave oven were invented in the USSR! And certainly it will be impossible for you to challenge the fact that the invention of Zhores Alferov gave a huge impetus to current technologies.
          1. Golovan Jack 18 March 2020 10: 46 New
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            Quote: Malyuta
            ... a huge jolt ...

            Cool! good laughing good
            1. Nikolai Korovin 18 March 2020 19: 25 New
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              Something did not understand why Roman was mined here. If you do not know how to write the word "push", write "impet". It’s time for me to change the impet for a long time - it’s leaking, scoundrel, but somehow everything is not up to it. Well, that is not very strong.
              The inventions of Zhores Alferov, unfortunately, are not related to machine tools. More to the possibilities of diamond-like semiconductors that N.A. discovered Goryunova. It was known that germanium and silicon were semiconductors, and Western scientists did not know what electronic analogs with very diverse properties could be made, which could not be achieved on germanium and silicon. And by the way, due to the fact that the periodic table was simply called the "Periodic table", by and large if the score.
              And where did Goryunova’s works begin to be used? Not with us. And when they started there, it seemed like they started us, but for a long time they swayed very much. Behind quite a bit. Alferov, of course, honor and glory - returned priority in this area. But also little is used in our country. But what about a 50-year-old junk was a fact in a pilot plant in a serious kind of NGO in the workshop. I somehow had a little work at MELZ. The temperature was measured with a Karl Zeiss pyrometer exported as a result of reparations - this is in the early 80s! The device is simple and reliable, but its accuracy was completely insufficient to achieve its goals.
              So the picture was very motley. By the standard, everything seems to be fine, but in fact - a terrible striphead. In general, "along with numerous shortcomings, we have some achievements." IN AND. Lenin correctly wrote that "less is better, but better." No. Above everything was dominated by a plan for the shaft. And where this shaft will go further - it seems nobody is particularly interested. But this, of course, does not mean that it was necessary to do everything as it was done in the 90s. There are hens laying golden or rotten eggs, absolutely nothing to do with it. There were all kinds of hens. Then the global principle worked, "but I want a shob from a movo susida cow died." Just in the first place they began to cut hens that lay precisely golden eggs.
              Well. Krutanul below - about the same post. Yes, they used ... Perhaps they are using it now. Definitely not in the know. But there was also his own, ultramodern. But not enough. But I know the idealists who believe that what they were stopped at in the late 80s and early 90s is the very fad of fashion, and why are bureaucrats not letting them resume? Nothing new has been done on the topic! .... Yes, because. Deprecated New principles have appeared. It’s ridiculous to reanimate the technology of 1,05 microns, when 0,13 microns is already considered to be not enough. Everything is completely different.
          2. behappy 18 March 2020 10: 46 New
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            Quote: Malyuta
            But you will not deny ...

            that even today you can meet machines exported by the USSR from Germany after the Second World War. Like appliances. Like technology ..
            1. frei67 19 March 2020 09: 21 New
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              In 84, I myself repaired the milling cutter for 34 years. There is nothing German in those machines except the beds
          3. Mestny 18 March 2020 11: 11 New
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            Quote: Malyuta
            But you will not deny that the development of Soviet scientists, engineers, designers, enthusiasts were exported abroad in tons for a penny. You cannot deny the fact that a mobile phone and a microwave oven were invented in the USSR!

            But you will not argue that even if it is true - how did it happen that in the conditions of the most advanced economy of the world, this did not turn out to be necessary for anyone?
            How could it so happen that the inventors sold it all for a penny to foreigners?
            1. Nikolai Korovin 19 March 2020 04: 07 New
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              The remuneration for the introduction of the invention in the USSR is 5% of the economic effect (i.e., net profit) for the entire team of authors, but no more than 20 rubles. So even if the invention gave 000 net profit, the authors should not have 10 rubles (000%), but 000 rubles. At the same time, the invention remained the property of the state. Why valuable things turned out to be in the wild west, and the country did not have anything from this - the question is in the structure of the application for an invention. It was required to prove that the invention is superior to foreign analogues, otherwise the application did not pass, and indicate the optimal parameters, which in many cases made it possible to bypass the application. A good example is hydrofoil vessels. The optimal range of wing angle of attack was announced. Naturally, it was taken from the ceiling - go and install it precisely without great experience in practical use. Immediately adopted. With the angle of attack of the wing, slightly different from the declared limits. And who took it - probably the Pope.
            2. aybolyt678 19 March 2020 05: 01 New
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              Quote: Mestny
              How could it so happen that the inventors sold it all for a penny to foreigners?

              it was a crisis of governance ... in different ways went to the inventors and to the Party organs. Pike cancer swan so to speak
          4. Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg) 18 March 2020 23: 36 New
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            Even assuming


            Patriot does a favor to adequate people when he agrees that white is white and black is black. Awesome.
            1. Golovan Jack 18 March 2020 23: 45 New
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              Quote: Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg)
              Patriot does a favor to adequate people

              No need to stain a good, in general, the word "patriot" about a note "fighter with a redhead." Indiscriminately.
          5. AU Ivanov. 19 March 2020 08: 02 New
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            Invented in the USSR, but introduced, for some reason, in the West. Many microwave ovens sold in the Union? And mobile communications were available only to the elite.
      4. Engineer Schukin 18 March 2020 17: 10 New
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        Hospadi, this is a famous fake!

        But how symptomatic for VO is that like you typed a carriage with a trolley. The audience of the site is consistent.
        1. Dart 19 March 2020 10: 35 New
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          yes, "in" slipped into the market and there are no brooms ... out of thirty posts, only five are from people who are really in the subject ... the rest are patrons-gorlopans-arresters ...
          one thing is good, who’s tearing their throats here, they’ll never begin to work on the machine, so people will not even listen to them smarter, although the goal is clear, swing ...
      5. Artavazdych 18 March 2020 18: 09 New
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        Surprisingly, Russia is just as generous with talents and heroes, just as generous with scum and traitors. A riddle for all special services of the world
    2. Yarr_Arr 18 March 2020 09: 36 New
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      “Already the 90s can not be remembered, 30 years have passed”
      Almost true ....
      The 90s ended somewhere in 2008.
      I had a 1/2 year delay in salary in 2003, as far as I remember ....
    3. aybolyt678 18 March 2020 09: 42 New
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      Quote: Svarog
      I don’t remember what would have been under the USSR all the time for a 45-year look back ..

      well, why, in 1985, Vasyur (the punisher of Khatyn) was prosecuted so that they remembered ...
      The problem is also that the students of the same 90s are now a generation of 40 year olds. And then the level of requirements for knowledge that fell then does not allow anything to be expected from them. Could the Stalin path be repeated with the involvement of foreign engineers ... ??? but this problem is not voiced. Attract only foreign purchasing managers., Bu Anderson for example
    4. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 10: 01 New
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      That's right!
    5. evgic 18 March 2020 10: 06 New
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      Something bad with your math. 2020 is now if that, 20 years that is. This is purely by numbers. Back the country was blinded from nothing by the year 2006. That's when there was an economic upturn that ended 2008-09 (another crisis). So 10 years of the Russian Federation more or less normally developed.
      I don’t remember that under the USSR all the time for the 45th year we would look back
      You have a bad memory. And they remembered and looked back not only in 1975 but also in 1985. And in 65, in the cities of Belarus, Ukraine and the west of the RSFSR, entire streets lay in ruins.
      Just to spoil the air.
      1. 16329 18 March 2020 17: 41 New
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        The most important thing is that during the collapse of the USSR, and then in the conditions of the collapse of the 90s, markets that were filled with other manufacturers were taken away, now it is difficult to squeeze these manufacturers out of the markets, almost not possible, especially under the conditions of economic sanctions and, as a result unfair competition
        Therefore, if you want development, you need to fight for markets by all methods, including military, so the logic is simple, first made a few “machines”, “cut” “Zircons” onto them, then applied “Zircons” and again made already More “machines”, well, t d
        it is difficult and dangerous; in the process many difficulties must be overcome.

        There is a simpler way - to sell only what is allowed to you and to buy the same that you are allowed to, and use the money of strangers at the same time
        It is much easier, but then it’s difficult to get out of this dependence if the requests and prices suddenly change
    6. Aleksey Aleksandrovich 18 March 2020 11: 07 New
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      Destroying an industry is easy, but re-creating is difficult. And given the fact that technology has galloped far ahead, it is very difficult. Where were you in the 90s, when the Russian machine tool industry and not only it was quickly and purposefully destroyed in the bud? And now shine with wit? It’s not right for you, but it’s not right. And they themselves seem to be out of business, right? All Putin spread, personally.
      1. AnderS 19 March 2020 18: 05 New
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        All Putin spread, personally.

        Why personally? He has friends from the OCG Lake, various classmates like Rottenberg, and other scavengers, Abramovich and Deribaski, who did everything under the "wise" leadership of this gentleman ... And anyway, he’s a well-known unaccounted for, you won’t ask him not at work. It’s as if it’s not him “president”, but some sort of Vasya Pupkin.
        It’s not right for you, but it’s not right

        And to you, how can I judge, everywhere and everywhere?
        Where were you in the 90s

        Where have you been?
        1. Aleksey Aleksandrovich 21 March 2020 19: 40 New
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          Quote: AnderS
          He has friends from the organized crime group "Lake"


          Oh, everything is clear. You can immediately see a handshake with a good bright face. Come on uncle, take a walk.
      2. Evgeny Suslin 20 March 2020 16: 05 New
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        The road will be overcome by a walker Any way begins with the first step. But the step is not observed, unfortunately. Only despondency is a sin.
    7. Caretaker 18 March 2020 20: 21 New
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      Quote: Svarog
      Already the 90s can not be remembered, 30 years have passed .. It’s the same as in the USSR, remembered at 75, the Second World War .. I don’t remember that under the USSR they would always look back at the 45th year ..

      It is more correct to compare what they managed to do from 1945 to 1974 and what from 1991 to 2020.
    8. Rey_ka 19 March 2020 09: 28 New
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      As far as I remember then everything went in comparison with 1913
    9. smart ass 20 March 2020 06: 05 New
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      Here is the answer to you why the dollar exchange rate collapsed the ruble, we do not produce anything, the industry is dead
  2. Vasily Ponomarev 18 March 2020 08: 36 New
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    "In the Soviet Union, machine tool building was developed at a very high level, but then ..." - began to be proud of how cunningly stolen Japanese machine tools
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 10: 02 New
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      Maybe they stole it, maybe not, but the Japanese in the USSR fought ideas even from the "Youth Technique"
      1. behappy 18 March 2020 11: 11 New
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        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        Japanese in the USSR, ideas even fought from the "Technique of Youth"

        yes, they fought .. now it’s worth comparing only Fedor’s robot and Asimo android to understand who he was fighting with.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 11: 14 New
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          Thirty years have passed, which is now something to compare, the time of technological degradation compared to the USSR: a chicken by the grain.
      2. behappy 18 March 2020 11: 45 New
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        Copy (reverse engineering) in the USSR superworld, the Chinese are far away! And in fact, engineers were forced to do this to the detriment of their developments. But just because the industry (the technologies that were used) began to limp, the German (European) machines, the German technologies (communized after the 2nd World War) began to become obsolete, and practically nothing was done of their own. And on the old base there was one single solution - to somehow hold on to what is. Therefore, they began to copy computer equipment based on the element base of the USSR and another, which in general could no longer save the USSR from a deep peak in the technological abyss.
        I'm not talking about scientists who really did something theoretically. But industry was a stupor. Therefore, it didn’t go beyond the concept, and what was needed in the USSR was what makes people easier and easier. Except in defense.
        Maybe that's why our missiles are bigger, thicker and heavier missiles))

        Yes, here’s an interesting piece of work on the study “Estimating Russia's Place in the World by Specific Weight Among Patent Applications”
        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/otsenka-mesta-rossii-v-mire-po-udelnomu-vesu-v-chisle-zayavok-na-patenty/viewer
        Well, on the first 12 pages, charts and tables about patents in various fields. Where is Russia there? At least one position. Maybe I did not notice, correct.

        And the developments from the Technique of Youth at the level of the House of Pioneers or how to make a moonshine from a bucket - the Japanese really needed it, yes.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 11: 47 New
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          Therefore, it didn’t go beyond the concept, and what was needed in the USSR was what makes people easier and easier. Except in defense.

          This is extreme subjectivity.
          But now life is easier - nowhere else laughing
  3. Maks1995 18 March 2020 08: 38 New
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    Grusenko. But I would like more specific numbers. By year, by country, individual industries.
    And it’s just a little small.
    1. Andrey Mikhaylov 18 March 2020 08: 45 New
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      Go to Made with us, type machine tools, and there are a lot of info. The article is clearly, except for the slogans about nothing.
      1. Maks1995 18 March 2020 08: 48 New
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        I go sometimes.
        But there is the opposite situation. Some super-super-breakouts, and also often without specific numbers. Only with the value of the investment ....
        1. Andrey Mikhaylov 18 March 2020 08: 51 New
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          There are specific figures, who produced how much and where to ship.
          1. ultra 18 March 2020 09: 08 New
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            agitation on "done with us" let the adm.president look.
            1. Victor N 18 March 2020 10: 03 New
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              The topic of machine tools is very specific, not for the general public. There were always few understanding and some of them used awareness not to the benefit of the country's economy.
            2. Alf
              Alf 18 March 2020 20: 06 New
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              Quote: ultra
              agitation on "done with us" let the adm.president look.

              She does not watch them, she writes them.
          2. 210ox 18 March 2020 11: 58 New
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            Well, I work in production ... All German and Chinese equipment .. Of the domestic only the “red proletariat” is 1k620. “Made with us” is only on the TV screen. No, it can be a piece and have it, but it can’t do the weather at all . Yes, and screwdriver assembly is.
          3. The comment was deleted.
          4. Maks1995 18 March 2020 15: 51 New
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            Yes, but not everywhere.
        2. Ross xnumx 18 March 2020 09: 14 New
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          Quote: Max1995
          But there is the opposite situation. Some super-super-breakouts, and also often without specific numbers. Only with the value of the invested ....

          I was always struck by how it is, the Su-57, or which T-14 costs less than a similar product in the United States, and in terms of investment in the Sochi Olympics, four Olympiads could be held in Pyeongchang:
          To hold the Olympics, even the winter one, is not a cheap pleasure. Games in Korea were no exception. According to preliminary estimates, $ 12,9 billion was spent, which is two times higher than the 2011 bid amount. However, against the background of Sochi-2014 expenses ($ 46 billion), the figures fully correspond to the concept of the “economical” Olympics, which the organizers immediately voiced.

          And on bulletin boards in Kemerovo often found:
          I will buy a sewing machine "Podolsk" in good condition.
      2. ultra 18 March 2020 08: 58 New
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        we are in 21 place in machine tool industry and the Turks in 12.
        1. Andrey Mikhaylov 18 March 2020 09: 00 New
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          Only manufacturers, European and manufactures in Turkey.
          1. ultra 18 March 2020 09: 05 New
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            I did not go into details
          2. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 10: 03 New
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            Not true, Turkish companies even enter the Russian Federation with their production.
          3. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 10: 10 New
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            Quote: Andrey Mikhaylov
            Only manufacturers, European and manufactures in Turkey.

            From Europeans there, I suspect, one name. Take at least Chryundik. Belongs to the Turks.
            1. From Siberia we 18 March 2020 16: 20 New
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              And Russian aluminum - to the British
          4. Pushkar 18 March 2020 10: 19 New
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            Quote: Andrey Mikhaylov
            Only manufacturers, European and manufactures in Turkey.

            Well, we have the Lada brand owned by Citroen, which is now launching Lada-Vesta at the Zaporizhzhya Automobile Plant. In / in Ukraine.
      3. The comment was deleted.
        1. behappy 18 March 2020 11: 24 New
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          Quote: Genry
          "fucked up all the polymers"

          By the way, just the technology of 3D printing based on polymers is already 40 years in Japan. And there the concept and implementation of this technology was laid. But what about polymers and such technologies in the USSR?
          I remember that the constructor of the Rook told how they used the foam brought in from the KGB through the KGB channels (sponge material was needed so that fuel would not spill during shooting, something like that, I apologize if it’s slightly wrong, but the point is not changes). And if "there" it was freely available for sale to the population, then our industry simply could not master this production due to the lack of technology and normal machine tool construction.
          What are we talking about then, if we talk about something technologically advanced ?!
          So your quote about polymers is getting into the bullseye. And about @ rally in the USSR is not only polymers.
          1. Genry 18 March 2020 11: 57 New
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            Quote: behappy
            By the way, just the technology of 3D printing based on polymers is already 40 years in Japan.

            Even ancient people, on the basis of geopolymers (clay) made dishes without a potter's wheel. They just laid it out / fashioned it from the sausages of the geopolymer.
            Quote: behappy
            I remember the constructor of the Rook told how they used the foam brought from over the hill over the KGB channels.

            Do not compose. Foam rubber in the USSR was full. It made it difficult to find normal furniture on springs.
            And the fact that they brought for Rook was a one-time action - they immediately started releasing their filler, which indicates the level of technology in the USSR.
            1. behappy 18 March 2020 18: 02 New
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              That's not very beautiful when a person just scratches his tongue!
              Quote: Genry
              Do not compose. Foam rubber in the USSR was full.

              I wrote that I’m not quite sure. Yes, not just foam, but polyurethane foam, which is actually one and the same laughing
              But this does not change the essence - the same washcloth.
              Look, this is the chief designer tells. And show this "washcloth"
              https://youtu.be/Dm7XB83fCCo?t=456

              If someone doesn’t work on time, watch from 7:37
              It was somehow told in black and white that they had imported it through special channels, because in the USSR they could not even produce it.
              The plane is good. But yo-ma-yo, why couldn’t they master this washcloth in production? Because while it was not needed for military equipment, it was not needed by anyone, it turns out!
              1. Foul skeptic 18 March 2020 18: 38 New
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                Yes, not just foam, but polyurethane foam, which is actually one and the same laughing
                But this does not change the essence - the same washcloth.
                But yo-ma-yo, why couldn’t they master this washcloth in production?

                In the USSR in 1957, they learned how to get polyurethane foam in Vladimir at the Institute of Synthetic Resins and in 1959 launched industrial production in Roshal at a chemical plant. In addition to Roshal, PPU was produced in Novomoskovsk, Kiev, Syzran (according to the time frame until the appearance of SU-25). Although there were deliveries from outside, from the Porolon company, from where we got the "popular" name of the material.
                1. behappy 18 March 2020 18: 59 New
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                  Quote: A vile skeptic
                  in 1959 launched industrial production

                  What they launched and under what slogans, I do not know. I heard hl the designer of this plane. He himself says that he was taken from Holland, because he was not in the USSR.
                  So the chief designer is lying?
                  1. Foul skeptic 19 March 2020 09: 04 New
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                    So the chief designer is lying?

                    And you do not refer to the words of the chief designer of the Su-25. Babak was never such, during the development of this aircraft he did not work at the Sukhoi Design Bureau. In the video, the words of the chief designer are not there simply because he was no longer alive.
                    I can’t say that they didn’t buy Su-25 PPUs for tank protection in the West because domestic models could not provide the necessary properties. But there is no need to tell that in the USSR there were no PPU of civil purpose at all until the 80s. How old are you? What is a "penny" you know? Then remember her seat, and then the year of manufacture. Well, all sorts of PAZiki to the heap and other examples.
                  2. meandr51 19 March 2020 11: 40 New
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                    And why should he not lie if he was paid for it? How many of these "patriots" work on a Boeing? As for the foam rubber, it was lying in tons in all hardware stores in the late 60s and early 70s. I upholstered the door for them and made a home-made bed with it. 3 rubles sheet 70 X 200 X 5 cm. On each sheet there was a sticker with the address of the Soviet factory. The foam rubber in the bed withstood 10 years, and then the bed was thrown out in a completely working form. Not crumbled. But for 20 years I can’t vouch ...
                2. behappy 19 March 2020 01: 49 New
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                  it's a lie! he was imported, the company Porolon and so the name went.
                  And after the collapse of the Union, local companies began to produce, but as it turned out, the quality was so terrible (the density of the gauno, it simply wasn’t physically able to withstand the load. That’s why the filler in furniture of that time turned into dust in a few years.) So it went to the people opinion that foam is worse than polyurethane foam laughing
                  So in Rooks there was a “real” Western capitalist “decaying” polyurethane foam (foam).
                  You at least take an interest, read before writing and minus.
                  Although, I realized - nobody needs it here.
                  1. Foul skeptic 19 March 2020 09: 07 New
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                    All your information is scooped up on the first commercial sites with the corresponding approach to the quality of information.
            2. behappy 18 March 2020 18: 39 New
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              Quote: Genry
              Even ancient people, on the basis of geopolymers (clay) made dishes without a potter's wheel. They just laid it out / fashioned it from the sausages of the geopolymer.

              laughing wassat
              Dear. Well, not so long ago, and drove in carts. Well, it’s just some kind of game - compare 3D printing with earthenware. Although also a breakthrough technology at one time was! But
              After all, the question is completely different, but you are here about ancient people with clubs and clay.
              What a dodgy mind would not come up with, if only - saying stupidity - not to look and ... like not a smart person.
            3. behappy 18 March 2020 18: 56 New
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              Quote: Genry
              Do not compose. Foam rubber in the USSR was full

              Respected. I brought you a heap of incontrovertible facts that in the USSR at that time there was no password! Not only for people (in furniture and mattresses), but also for the military-industrial complex!
              Therefore, I apologize!
              1. Alf
                Alf 18 March 2020 20: 10 New
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                Quote: behappy
                Quote: Genry
                Do not compose. Foam rubber in the USSR was full

                Respected. I brought you a heap of incontrovertible facts that in the USSR at that time there was no password! Not only for people (in furniture and mattresses), but also for the military-industrial complex!
                Therefore, I apologize!

                Turns out I was sleeping on a mattress filled with air. And the chairs in my apartment were also "in the air."
                I apologize !
                1. behappy 19 March 2020 01: 25 New
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                  Quote: Alf
                  Turns out I was sleeping on a mattress filled with air.

                  In what year did you sleep on a foam mattress, dear? I slept on a cotton pad, on a mattress stuffed with horsehair (from a ship, a thing!), On a spring (something like a mattress) .. But the foam did not somehow remember the mattresses in those days.
              2. meandr51 19 March 2020 11: 47 New
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                First, learn the rules of the Russian language, and then climb from your Pentagon to the Russian Internet! The second letter is O, not A. We do not apologize to the spies. In the 70s, I started working with Soviet foam rubber at home. It was a decent substance.
          2. Caretaker 18 March 2020 20: 38 New
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            Quote: behappy
            then our industry simply could not master this production due to the lack of technology and normal machine tool construction.

            Tanks were protected during the war, on IL-2, for example.
            1. behappy 19 March 2020 01: 19 New
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              Quote: Caretaker
              Tanks Protected During the War

              Than polyurethane foam? belay Well, are you all overeaten here ?!
              No, I understand when they are being minus, because "pride" does not allow ..
              I understand that when they miss or pretend that they did not notice clearly laid out information from the video (not even an article), where the person who developed himself speaks out about the same polyurethane foam and openly says that it wasn’t imported, that Then they already started to produce it .. and there are a lot of minuses right around this message, but it was this information from the main designer that remained with zero and as if it was not there! And I spent a lot of time just to find her, so as not to be unfounded.
              Here's the strangest thing about all this, that’s exactly it. And just this means that people are not interested in what and how it was, people (these minuscule people) are only interested in upholding their position and only their opinions no matter what .. even the facts from the Source!
              Strange, this position is not clear to me. If you already understand and minus, then it is justified. but apparently, admitting one’s mistake is not for the “strong”.
              Although ... mistakes - the concept is purely subjective, so the result of the recognition of errors is the same - subjective laughing
              1. meandr51 19 March 2020 11: 54 New
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                About nothing. What do you, the Pentagon pay for the volume? All tanks on combat aircraft of the USSR have been designed since the war years. And what's the difference than: foam rubber, genuine leather, inert gas, fluoroplastic mesh, etc. In any case, the MIGIs burned no stronger than the Sabers and Phantoms ...
                1. Foul skeptic 19 March 2020 12: 04 New
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                  Here it is still worth considering that in order to be considered a protected tank it was enough to have an external armor jacket, and not everyone had protection at once when fuel was breached.
          3. Evgeny Suslin 20 March 2020 16: 14 New
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            You are deeply mistaken, fuel tanks with a triple structure were tested and entered the army in the second half of World War II.
      4. Yarr_Arr 18 March 2020 09: 38 New
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        Eeeee .... What kind of slogan are you talking about?
        My vision is setting, maybe I didn’t make out ....
  4. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 08: 41 New
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    So what place does it take?
    1. Svarog 18 March 2020 08: 43 New
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      Quote: mordvin xnumx
      So what place does it take?

      Indecent ..
      1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 08: 47 New
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        Quote: Svarog
        Indecent ..

        The author was shy to write. It’s a pity Vadik disappeared, otherwise he would have told about Stan. Well, nothing, now somebody, and he will send it to "Made with us."
        1. Lexus 18 March 2020 09: 57 New
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          The author was shy to write.

          This place is very accurately indicated in the film "Gentlemen of Fortune". Only, unlike the hero of Leonov, modern Russian "figures" with this "proposal" dutifully agreed. This is because our country was in it, and not they. They are fine.
      2. Ross xnumx 18 March 2020 09: 15 New
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        Quote: Svarog
        Indecent ..

        good
        In other words, shameful! laughing
    2. Gene84 18 March 2020 08: 48 New
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      in the first twenty we definitely do not enter.
  5. Naz
    Naz 18 March 2020 08: 45 New
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    Why the article? And so it is clear to everyone.
    1. guerrilla 18 March 2020 08: 58 New
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      About 6 years ago, when Russia was somewhere in the 37th machine tool industry, they ran into me and bombarded me, when I indicated this in terms of hurray-cap, we’ll throw a natu.
      It turns out that for almost 7 (!) Years they did not understand ...
      1. Rey_ka 19 March 2020 09: 38 New
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        Well, if we assume that we have capitalism and all production is private, then it’s purely psychologically fast to make money only on sale and not on production
  6. Sailor 18 March 2020 08: 46 New
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    I hope that the situation will change for the better, my son at the university has one of the profiles of future employment, maintenance of CNC machines.
    1. Cottodraton 18 March 2020 08: 50 New
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      Ours does not particularly smell yet, we study foreign systems (German) more.
      I also study at engineering support of VPO
    2. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 08: 58 New
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      Quote: Sailor
      one of the profiles of future employment, maintenance of CNC machines.

      Is there a matbase there?
      1. Sailor 18 March 2020 14: 55 New
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        The Volgograd Polytechnic is one of the best in the Russian Federation, it was during the USSR, and the base there is very good by the standards of Volgograd, I myself graduated from another university, so there is nothing to compare.
        1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 15: 02 New
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          Quote: Sailor
          and the base there by the standards of Volgograd is very good

          I mean, in the form of modern machines.
          1. Sailor 18 March 2020 15: 04 New
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            Such luxury unfortunately only in St. Petersburg.
    3. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 10: 12 New
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      The training system for working on CNCs is different, the mass of "primitive" (relatively of course) machines that perform mass operations: for example, they cut bolts, nuts.
      Another thing is a more complex technique. It is impossible to master this within the framework of the course.
      For example, a good turner in the USSR usually studied not at vocational schools, but at a technical school: he could read drawings at the engineer level. Then, about ten years of work, with passing, not an exam, or whatever, but real exams for the "bison" category from their own production and reaching the 6-7th category. But ... my teachers, 7th grade, split me, and they worked abroad, which, for example, in Italy, the processing classes are stricter and the qualifications are higher. And this is at a time when we had a huge "Hammer and Sickle" producing machines, including CNC.
      What would "if we can, repeat" now need a real action program, a plan, edge points, fact, responsibility, and so that "not a navigator and a carpenter" he could work at the shipyard ...
      1. Elturisto 18 March 2020 10: 29 New
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        Yes, the teachers de told ... it’s called the grandmother said in two. What does it mean to read the drawings at the engineer level? To change for the better, it is necessary to eliminate capitalism, and send the loafers-humanists to harvest in the fields ...
        1. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 10: 56 New
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          .This is called a grandmother in two said.
          Are you talking about your grandmother?
          Eliminate capitalism, who is your handicap ... or only in language?
    4. Alf
      Alf 18 March 2020 20: 13 New
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      Quote: Sailor
      I hope that the situation will change for the better, my son at the university has one of the profiles of future employment, maintenance of CNC machines.

      Ask your son to carefully examine these machines after class for the nameplates of the manufacturer. And it’s better to take a picture so that there is something to put here.
    5. Caretaker 18 March 2020 20: 40 New
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      I don’t want to offend anyone, but if I were in the specialty “Design and Production of CNC Machines”, then YES.
  7. Gene84 18 March 2020 08: 50 New
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    all the talk about "import substitution" and the deliverance of Russia from raw materials export dependence will remain talk.

    There is not any import substitution. This decision remained at the level of "talk, dream."
  8. apro 18 March 2020 08: 50 New
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    And why do we need machine tools in modern Russia? We’ll buy airplanes. We’ll buy the rest. The PRC will provide ... only financial flows need to be regulated .. and it’s economically inconvenient to build.
    1. aybolyt678 18 March 2020 09: 51 New
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      Quote: apro
      Why do modern Russia have machines?

      Hope this is sarcasm? you would at least put a smiley face.
      1. apro 18 March 2020 09: 58 New
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        And without sarcasm, you can’t look at modern Russia ... look very gloomy ...
      2. Alf
        Alf 18 March 2020 20: 16 New
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        Quote: aybolyt678
        Quote: apro
        Why do modern Russia have machines?

        Hope this is sarcasm? you would at least put a smiley face.

        What for ? The clever will understand, and at least put the ducks, at least not, they have one training manual.
  9. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 08: 52 New
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    In the Soviet Union, machine tool construction was developed at a very high level, but then ...


    I do not think that this is objective data. We have never developed a machine tool industry. Much has been produced and is being produced on imported equipment - purchased, trophy, etc. Like never before in the Soviet Union there was no beef cattle breeding. This industry was a byproduct of dairy farming, but not independent. Now we are developing and showing good growth rates.

    We need technological sovereignty in critical strategic industries. Where to buy, where to borrow. Lure specialists, etc.

    Still an unplowed front of work!
    1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 10: 15 New
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      Quote: ButchCassidy
      We have never developed a machine tool industry. Much has been produced and is being produced on imported equipment - purchased, trophy, etc.

      And identity too! For example, the punks from the Makarenko colony, while developing a drilling machine, scratched turnips, why it sparks, comparing with the American one.
      1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 10: 19 New
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        Quote: mordvin xnumx
        And identity too! For example, the punks from the Makarenko colony, while developing a drilling machine, scratched turnips, why it sparks, comparing with the American one.

        I do not understand the meaning of banter? We have never been at the German level in matters of machine tool construction. Is this classified information?
        1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 10: 29 New
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          Quote: ButchCassidy
          We have never been at the German level in matters of machine tool construction.

          Nevertheless, 30 years ago they exported CNC machines to Japan.
          1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 10: 39 New
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            Quote: mordvin xnumx
            Nevertheless, 30 years ago they exported CNC machines to Japan.

            Spruce-paly, I already wrote that the Japanese bought them in order to disassemble and use them as valuable raw materials!
            1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 10: 44 New
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              Quote: ButchCassidy
              that the Japanese bought them in order to disassemble and use them as valuable raw materials!

              Tell these tales to youngsters. All that the Japanese did with them was to change our electronics, the size of a closet, and put their box. That is why the press screamed: "Well, we in the USSR do not know how to do our electronics! Look how the Iponians can!"
              1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 10: 46 New
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                Quote: mordvin xnumx
                Tell these tales to youngsters. All that the Japanese did with them was to change our electronics, the size of a closet, and put their box. That is why the press screamed: "Well, we in the USSR do not know how to do our electronics! Look how the Iponians can!"

                And why shouldn't I trust sources from Vneshtorg?

                I don’t know what your press is in the Soviet Union and what it screamed. Is that the "voice of America" ​​you listened to?))
                1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 10: 50 New
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                  Quote: ButchCassidy
                  I don’t know what your press is in the Soviet Union and what it screamed.

                  Like the Komsomol truth, for example, in the late 80s.
                  Quote: ButchCassidy
                  And why shouldn't I trust sources from Vneshtorg?

                  Present the source.
                  Quote: ButchCassidy
                  "America's voice" did you listen to?

                  According to the voice of America, they said that Japan buys machine tools in the USSR? belay
                  1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 11: 21 New
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                    Quote: mordvin xnumx
                    Like the Komsomol truth, for example, in the late 80s.

                    Quote: mordvin xnumx
                    According to the voice of America, they said that Japan buys machine tools in the USSR?

                    It was about this.
                    Quote: mordvin xnumx
                    Present the source.

                    Conversations at the level of "Billy, where are the proofs?" I'm not interested. I talked with those who sold these machines.
                    1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 11: 23 New
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                      Quote: ButchCassidy
                      I talked with those who sold these machines.

                      From this series, I can also say that I also talked to a lot of people.
                      1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 15: 38 New
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                        Quote: mordvin xnumx
                        From this series, I can also say that I also talked to a lot of people.

                        No problem. But I did not hear something from the Japanese about the cessation of supplies of Soviet CNC metalworking machines. And you?
                      2. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 15: 45 New
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                        Quote: ButchCassidy
                        But I did not hear something from the Japanese about the cessation of supplies of Soviet CNC metalworking machines. And you?

                        Yes, what complaints. They also took part in the collapse of our industry. Example. My friend in the 94th, or in the 95th, I don’t remember exactly, bought a Vityaz TV. After a couple of weeks, he broke down, and not just him. It turned out that the Japanese put some defective parts there.
                      3. Titus 18 March 2020 23: 44 New
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                        I dare to suggest that it was not 1994, but 1984 ... we also bought a hero and I remember that there were a lot of complaints.
                      4. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 23: 48 New
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                        Quote: Titus
                        I dare to suggest that not 1994, but 1984.

                        It is the 90s, with a modern design at that time, a remote control and some kind of glass from the radiation of the picture tube. At this party, the store owner went broke. All absolutely TVs flew in a short time.
                    2. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 09: 18 New
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                      Conversation about nothing. I say that the exported Soviet CNC machines were used as raw materials. I did not hear anything about Denmark, but my colleagues confirmed that even those who bought Soviet machine tools threw all the electronics out of them. Question:

                      HOW HAVE THEY USED THE MAIN PART OF THE MACHINE IF NOT AS RAW MATERIALS FOR OWN PRODUCTION?

                      And how does this ... differ from what I told you all this time?
                    3. Mordvin 3 19 March 2020 09: 53 New
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                      Quote: ButchCassidy
                      Question:

                      HOW HAVE THEY USED THE MAIN PART OF THE MACHINE IF NOT AS RAW MATERIALS FOR OWN PRODUCTION?

                      And I already answered you that they changed the electronics, in particular, the Japanese. Ours, yes, was worse, however now there is none at all. Unless only for the military-industrial complex.
                    4. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 10: 15 New
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                      And when the electronics were changed, then the machines were not dismantled?

                      Maybe it makes sense to listen carefully to what they say to you? And there will be no need to prove anything with foam at the mouth.
                    5. Mordvin 3 19 March 2020 10: 22 New
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                      Quote: ButchCassidy
                      Maybe it makes sense to listen carefully to what they say to you?

                      Enough brains to powder. You started with the fact that they went for remelting, and you end with electronics. However, in the 80s I heard such tales, up to such insanity that the Japanese bought our televisions, threw everything out, and made furniture from wooden cases. Or how the giblets of Japanese tape recorders self-destructed when trying to open them. I don’t intend to argue more about this, I'm tired of it.
                    6. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 12: 40 New
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                      I did not say anything about remelting, I talked about disassembly and use as raw materials for further production.

                      Nobody used our CNC machines in Japan as CNC machines. Accordingly, it is stupid to be proud of exporting to Denmark and Japan and presenting this as an achievement of the Soviet machine tool industry. What was originally discussed on my part.
  • SARANCHA1976 18 March 2020 15: 27 New
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    why then do they not fly into space?
    1. Alf
      Alf 18 March 2020 20: 20 New
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      Quote: SARANCHA1976
      why then do they not fly into space?

      Who? Machine tools? laughing
      1. SARANCHA1976 25 May 2020 15: 07 New
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        Not machines of course .. CNC
  • gsev 18 March 2020 18: 24 New
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    Quote: ButchCassidy
    We have never been at the German level in machine tool issues.

    In the USSR, electroerosion machines were made before everyone else. When such a machine was put into a watch factory, it was able to replace about 10 Swiss copy milling machines. Oddly enough, Russia in the 1990s supplied diamond processing machines to Israel and Belgium. Now the patent has expired and Belgium has copied the machine for further production. The quality of the machine depends on the designer, and in machine tools since 1991 the smallest salaries. Therefore, the machine tool industry was badly damaged.
    1. Caretaker 18 March 2020 20: 46 New
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      Quote: gsev
      The quality of the machine depends on the designer, and in machine tools since 1991 the smallest salaries. Therefore, the machine tool industry was badly damaged.

      It's not about salary. First, production collapsed, and after it the production of the means of production.
    2. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 09: 36 New
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      Machine tool industry is a branch of mechanical engineering. And the production of a particular machine at a good or even better level does not mean that we are leaders in this INDUSTRY.

      YES, the problems you are talking about are there. And I am not at all happy with these problems. I just don’t understand what is the point of saying something that wasn’t? Yes, we had a lot of advanced and have. At one time, the Japanese bought hundreds of our candidate and doctoral dissertations, which the Higher Attestation Commission did not produce for some reason. And there were ready-made technologies. We have a problem in the transition from development to implementation. And Israel in its present form exists only because of the Soviet personnel donation, when a million Soviet engineers arrived there. This gave an explosive increase in technological level.

      Do you know that our PAZ introduced in the 1970s a nice bus in Nice that won the first prize as the best tourist bus? Have you seen this bus in the vastness of our vast Motherland? And I have not seen. And no one has seen. Because the management decided that such a bus was redundant to a Soviet citizen. And we have many such examples. When the designer fights our development and cannot implement it, he leaves for the West or somewhere else and they carry it on his hands. And then we buy its development at exorbitant prices, but already from behind a hill.
  • Caretaker 18 March 2020 20: 43 New
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    Quote: ButchCassidy
    We have never been at the German level in matters of machine tool construction.

    You are mistaken, were better, in some areas.
    1. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 09: 39 New
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      Quote: Caretaker
      You are mistaken, were better, in some areas.


      In some areas ...
      In some areas ...
      IN SOME AREAS!

      But what am I talking about?
      1. Caretaker 19 March 2020 20: 06 New
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        I clarify - in some areas of machine tools and the production of instrumental materials.
        1. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 20: 21 New
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          And I'm talking about its general level.
  • Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 10: 27 New
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    The USSR exported machine tools, and not only to fraternal countries.
    About livestock statistics speaks differently)
    The number of cattle in the USSR (1990) is 58 million heads, in 2019 in the Russian Federation - 11 million. The share of cows in 2019. at the level of 1941. Here they are - inefficient collective farms. good
    1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 15: 39 New
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      Quote: Edward Vashchenko
      The USSR exported machine tools, and not only to fraternal countries.
      About livestock statistics speaks differently)
      The number of cattle in the USSR (1990) is 58 million heads, in 2019 in the Russian Federation - 11 million. The share of cows in 2019. at the level of 1941. Here they are - inefficient collective farms. good

      And what's the point of comparing the performance of Russia and the USSR? It must be compared with the performance of the RSFSR.
      1. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 18: 30 New
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        What to compare with - since 1941?
      2. Foul skeptic 18 March 2020 18: 49 New
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        in 1992, cattle - 40,2 million heads (of which 13,7 million cows), pigs - 23,5 million heads, sheep and goats - 32,7 million heads.
        in 2018, cattle - 8,1 million heads (of which 3,3 million cows), pigs - 20,8 million heads, sheep and goats - 3,7 million heads.
        These are statistics from Rosstat.
        Therefore, by the way, it is interesting where from Edward cattle in 2019 - 11 million - for a year it is unrealistic to increase the population by 40%. Despite the fact that the slaughter was increased by 1,6%
  • Elturisto 18 March 2020 10: 31 New
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    Yeah, not a plowed front-cut, not cut. Who will achieve this will be technological sovereignty-rattles of the Linnik brothers?
  • pmkemcity 18 March 2020 10: 39 New
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    Quote: ButchCassidy
    Like never before in the Soviet Union there was no beef cattle breeding.

    In the Soviet Union there was no meat consumption, all meat was driven to a social camp. But there was meat farming.
    1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 15: 55 New
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      Quote: pmkemcity
      In the Soviet Union there was no meat consumption, all meat was driven to a social camp. But there was meat farming.


      I wrote simply and specifically: specialized meat farming, i.e. there were no meat breeds of cattle. It was a byproduct of dairy farming. Well, they did not grow massively meat gobies in the USSR. I do not know why. Apparently because of why they decided to grow corn in due time.

      And now the grain we sell is the underdevelopment of our livestock sector and processing sector. France sells its frozen croissants to us, and there the added value is much higher than that of grain, and Italy sells its pasta to us, which are also made largely from our grain.

      It was possible to buy on the market, but there the unfinished private trader was selling meat and it was twice as expensive, and not even any collective farms or state farms. The state farms had everything state-owned, which means it was a draw.

      I'm not talking about postscripts for which they received orders and prizes. There were a lot of things on paper. The same cotton business or fish.

      To its heyday, the Soviet Union did not catch up with the Russian Empire for the production of butter, the pace of laying railway tracks, etc. I am not a lover of French crust crunch mourning in the Republic of Ingushetia; for me, the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR are equally expensive. I don’t understand why it is necessary to carry some nonsense about how everything was perfect. The pros were there and there. But with meat in Soviet times it was not very.

      Here is a good article on this topic:
      https://www.rosbalt.ru/main/2012/04/17/970793.html
      1. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 18: 48 New
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        the pace of laying railway tracks, etc.

        it's not even funny, YOU are talking about? he doesn’t read nonsense, the whole network of railway roads was shifted to the USSR, and all the trains became more powerful. I repeat - all! Plus damage during the war: offensive here and there: rails here and there.
        the same is about butter: the USSR - 1 place in milk consumption per duma in 1990. Milk in 1990 produced 5 times more than in 1913, respectively, and oil, but the population did not grow 5 times, as you can trust to such conclusions.
        The consumption structure was different - there was nothing to compare with, the steaks were not eaten, and in the USA they did not overeat in those years. but he wrote about cattle here - our Russian Federation is 5 times smaller, five! Now I don’t remember vainly, but the RSFSR is three! What are you speaking about!
        I'm not talking about the quality of products, such milk as in the USSR - today at least 80 rubles per liter.
        All statistics for the USSR, the RSFSR excluding subsidiary plots, for the Russian Federation only with a coefficient. on auxiliary, there is no exact data.
        1. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 09: 45 New
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          Transsiberian, CER did not hear?)) And I'm talking about TEMP. Do you understand the meaning of the word? Not volumes. And the pace
          1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 10: 05 New
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            I have heard.
            Well, nonsense - about the pace, YOU want to say that in the Second World War the pace was slower than that of Kleimichel, as there: "but on the sides there are all Russian bones, how many are Vanya, do you know?" This is about the pace.
            By the way, I don’t want to advertise, but ... look at my articles here at VO, about the development of Russia as a civilization (only they are a speech). Go to my profile, there about the pace too.
            Just a few articles - all on a scientific basis (all numbers verified, cross-checked) + plus (mentally) my experience in real, large business for more than 20 years. Not a "couch" specialist in management, as they like to blame here, so I know what I'm writing about.
            Yours faithfully,
            Edward
            1. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 20: 23 New
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              And I'm not a couch specialist: I have been working in state administration for many years and in recent years I have traveled a lot in the factories of our vast country.
              1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 20: 56 New
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                State management is not a business, sorry - it is often a crooked mirror of the economy, sorry for being straightforward. Riding and working with your hands are two big differences. Yes, I am not a supporter of the formula that the state has no place in the economy, in any case, for understanding.
                No offense.
                Sorry for the perseverance, but please read these articles, of course the VO format does not imply scientific footnotes, but I assure you that they are in the main text.
                It may be useful
                hi
                1. Butchcassidy 20 March 2020 12: 55 New
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                  I can do a lot of things, including working with my hands: tire fitting, shoe repair, gardening, teaching, entrepreneurship. I didn’t work at the factory, I won’t lie.

                  But I can say - a very large resource in the development of our country is precisely in the effective management of enterprises. And, I think, without the help of the state it is not enough, especially in the steel industry.
                  1. Edward Vashchenko 20 March 2020 14: 11 New
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                    And, I think, without the help of the state it is not enough, especially in the steel industry.

                    I will not argue - I agree here, but not with the current management system.
      2. Alf
        Alf 18 March 2020 20: 23 New
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        Quote: ButchCassidy
        But with meat in Soviet times it was not very.

        I will tell you a terrible secret. In RI with meat, the peasants also had, to put it mildly, not so hot.
        1. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 09: 46 New
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          The keyword is "too." This is what we are talking about.
  • Alf
    Alf 18 March 2020 20: 18 New
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    Quote: ButchCassidy
    Like never before in the Soviet Union there was no beef cattle breeding.

    Somewhere I already heard it .. Ah, I remembered. Here is another quote from the same, more precisely, from its mouth.
    1. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 10: 07 New
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      Read a lecture on Russian to you? Tell that the meaning of the quote is distorted if it is taken out of context?

      What kind of kindergarten? Well, they produced part of the nomenclature of helicopter engines in Perm. What's next?

      Well, they produced in Russia part of the machines on a global or even higher level. What's next?

      Well, KAMAZ is now producing a base for Shells, then what? Does this cancel the fact that all the competencies of the special-wheel platforms of the Union were based in Minsk on the MZKT? And what Kamaz platforms are far below the level of Minsk? Well, what's the point of denying real problems? They need to be addressed. And they are solved. But not by denying the problems themselves.
  • ANB
    ANB 18 March 2020 20: 37 New
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    . Like never before in the Soviet Union there was no beef cattle breeding. This industry was a byproduct of dairy farming, but not independent.

    It was like that in beef. And chicken. They pressed on eggs more, but they were already starting to breed broilers. Unskillfully, really. But the pig farms have already been built. Little, because they did not know how to dispose of manure. And the breeds were greasy.
    Now they are engaged in meat according to their minds, but now you cannot buy normal fat.
    1. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 20: 24 New
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      I agree and support.
  • nikvic46 18 March 2020 08: 52 New
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    Although I worked a little in machine tool industry, I remembered the strict requirements for the production of machine tools. I have never seen such rigidity anywhere else. Lathes went to Denmark and other countries. Later, a machine of this brand came to our factory. I advised a friend to stand on it. He I was very grateful for this advice.
    1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 10: 20 New
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      Quote: nikvic46
      Although I worked a little in machine tool industry, I remembered the strict requirements for the production of machine tools. I have never seen such rigidity anywhere else. Lathes went to Denmark and other countries. Later, a machine of this brand came to our factory. I advised a friend to stand on it. He I was very grateful for this advice.

      We also sold machine tools in Japan. Only they bought them as finished high-quality raw materials, and did not use them for their intended purpose.
      1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 11: 34 New
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        Quote: ButchCassidy
        Only they bought them as finished high-quality raw materials.

        Do you think what you are writing? In your opinion, for example, they take the machine, dismantle it into thousands of parts, sort each rivet, press out each gear, sort it by steel grade, and then melt and write the Japanese steel markings, which were different from the Soviet ones? How do you imagine all this?
        1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 11: 55 New
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          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          Do you think what you are writing? In your opinion, for example, they take the machine, dismantle it into thousands of parts, sort each rivet, press out each gear, sort it by steel grade, and then melt and write the Japanese steel markings, which were different from the Soviet ones? How do you imagine all this?

          Of course I’m thinking. That’s how it all happened.

          Because in Japan there is a shortage of resources, and here you can inexpensively buy high-quality steel, other pure metals and use them for your needs. If you were at factories in the Soviet era, then children had fun in the Moscow region of Schelkovo to burn magnesium plates, which tens of kilograms just lay in landfills. Pure magnesium! I assure you, in Japan there was no such gouging. They very economically spent any resources, because they are stupidly not. Therefore, more than one could be made from our machine. But we still do not have a lean use of resources.
          1. Mordvin 3 18 March 2020 12: 18 New
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            Quote: ButchCassidy
            That’s how it all happened.



            This is from the reference book "Foreign Trade of the USSR 1987". And for what kind of devil did the Japanese need haemorrhoids with machine tools and KrAZs, if the USSR exported scrap metal and ore and ferroalloys and cast iron for export?
            1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 13: 29 New
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              Quote: mordvin xnumx
              This is from the reference book "Foreign Trade of the USSR 1987". And for what kind of devil did the Japanese need haemorrhoids with machine tools and KrAZs, if the USSR exported scrap metal and ore and ferroalloys and cast iron for export?

              The question is not for me. It was about a specific person involved in the export of machine tools to Japan from the USSR through the Vneshtorg system. For what I bought, for that I sell it.

              Personally, I have never heard that it was precisely the machine tool industry that was at the forefront of world positions. Actually, the US nightmare is a long-term alliance between Russia and Germany, where they would have technological donation.
          2. Alf
            Alf 18 March 2020 20: 25 New
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            Quote: ButchCassidy
            But we still do not have a lean use of resources.

            How is it that there has been no socialism for 30 years already, and capitalist is the most economical and prudent owner?
          3. karabas86 24 March 2020 17: 53 New
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            Yes, it’s clear why everything is so with us, if people like you manage, you cannot manage the seedy collective farm.
      2. nikvic46 18 March 2020 15: 29 New
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        Quote: ButchCassidy
        Quote: nikvic46
        Although I worked a little in machine tool industry, I remembered the strict requirements for the production of machine tools. I have never seen such rigidity anywhere else. Lathes went to Denmark and other countries. Later, a machine of this brand came to our factory. I advised a friend to stand on it. He I was very grateful for this advice.

        We also sold machine tools in Japan. Only they bought them as finished high-quality raw materials, and did not use them for their intended purpose.

        In Denmark, they bought ready-made machines. True, they changed electronics. Ivanovsky also sold centers.
        1. Butchcassidy 18 March 2020 15: 58 New
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          Quote: nikvic46
          In Denmark, they bought ready-made machines. True, they changed electronics. Ivanovsky also sold centers.

          And how is this fundamentally different from what I said? Doesn't a CNC metalworking machine involve the use of CNC? He was changed. They reworked something, i.e. used our products as raw materials.
          1. gsev 18 March 2020 18: 40 New
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            Quote: ButchCassidy
            Doesn't involve the use of CNC?

            When buying a machine, it is always determined which electronics will be on the machine, and the electrician too. For example, the Swedes were very surprised why Soviet customers did not require equipping Soviet machine tools with Soviet electric motors. That is, they sold to Germany and Europe with German CNC, to Asia and Japan with German.
            The chief in the USSR sometimes did not understand that there was an outstanding achievement. For example, in the production of an analogue of the Dekel machine tool in the USSR, a hypoid transmission was used, which, unlike the Germans, allowed milling during table rotation. The designers were very much asked not to tell anyone about their achievement how the big boss would be offended. He ordered to do everything as the Germans did. The foreign trade workers were immediately informed the Germans that Dekel’s machine was copied and invited the owner of Dekel’s to a private exhibition where the machines were shown. The German was even introduced to the designer of the Soviet machine tool. Moreover, the Germans were surprised that in the USSR they were able to make such a machine, having only a German machine and a set of repair documentation. He asked for a long time what drawings the Soviet intelligence had stolen.
            1. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 20: 27 New
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              Our gouging is usually clearly manifested at the level of technology implementation - developed, stolen or not - it doesn’t matter. And the fact that we, if desired, can supplant the gloomy Teutonic genius of German engineers, I have no doubt.
  • Ros 56 18 March 2020 08: 58 New
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    In itself, machine tool building is not necessary for anyone if there is no production capacity where these machines can be used. Only for export, so there the battle goes on without us. Getting there just so unrealistic.
    We even purchase consumer goods machines in China. Why the mind is incomprehensible. In the Palace of Pioneers need machines. My drugan has been working there for over thirty years and he has our own machines. No, they should not be older than 5 years old and buy Chinese junk at the price of a million scars apiece. What logic doesn’t reach me ..
    1. gsev 18 March 2020 18: 47 New
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      Quote: Ros 56
      Nobody needs machine tool itself

      For example, you decide to make a reusable shuttle like Buran. You do not have a domestic machine for the production of protective tiles and tools for processing tiles on the machine. When the USSR decided to repair Buran after the first flight, the Belgians offered to buy from them a new machine with a tool kit for one Buran. In the USSR they counted and decided not to buy a machine tool and no longer make Buranas. For example, in the USSR it was forbidden to supply CNCs with interpolation along 3 or 4 axes. Accordingly, Siemens and Fanuki did not do this and the Soviet CNC did it without problems.
    2. karabas86 24 March 2020 17: 55 New
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      Saw respected, saw - they are weights of gold.
  • basmach 18 March 2020 08: 59 New
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    The question is not in place. The question is completely different. A CNC machine is primarily a “brain”. But they are not domestic. I happened to encounter Ryazan-all electronics-Siemens (only our contactors). And the quality. On the next line there were German-the same operation, threading under the sleeve on the pipe. Ryazan a year later work through a stump deck. The mechanism breaks and the turner stands - catches the starting position (it needs repair, but this is not cheap). The Germans work without problems and performance is slightly higher. In general, machine tool building is like a locomotive, pulling a bunch of industries. There would be a sale for them.
    In general, the topic of import substitution is an interesting thing. Many people prefer western. Had to work face-customer-state office. In the automation project, a bunch of temperature and pressure sensors. All-import. Although there are our analogues. Import controllers. There are our analogues. Well, at least your cable. That’s all the substitution.
    1. rocket757 18 March 2020 09: 14 New
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      Quote: basmach
      In general, machine tool building is like a locomotive, pulling a bunch of industries.

      Machine tool industry is - To be or not to be, industry in the country, as such !!!
      A difficult topic ... I don’t want to talk, because I don’t know much, I was little interested.
    2. gsev 18 March 2020 19: 02 New
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      Quote: basmach
      Many people prefer western.

      Usually, daddy’s daughters fall into the bosses. I watched as a young engineer from the Kovrov plant came to the stand of the Yuhai company to watch a servo drive. They discussed with the Chinese the dependence of the moment on speed. The Chinese said that, unlike the Japanese, the Chinese can deliver servos with the same torque at both low and high speeds. Rather, obsolete drives with loss of torque at low speed have long ceased to be produced .. Kovrovets said that he only needs Japanese ones with loss of torque at low speed. The poor Chinese man was even taken aback and froze with bulging eyes .. Apparently in the PRC such ignoramuses are already expelled from school, and in Russia they are instructed to select foreign suppliers. Then I asked the representatives of Yuhai and the Beijing Institute whether they managed to organize the supply of products directly to consumers. They say no, the Russians ignore their messages and do not respond to the newsletter. Although in China, Chinese servos and CNCs are successfully used instead of Japanese and German.
  • Zoer 18 March 2020 09: 00 New
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    Well, "excellent" result for 20 years. And 15 of them in the budget flowed golden rivers ...
    1. Alf
      Alf 18 March 2020 20: 29 New
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      Quote: Zoer
      And 15 of them flowed into the budget golden rivers ..

      And directly flowed into the "Golden Hands."
  • Andrey Mikhaylov 18 March 2020 09: 03 New
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    Machine tool construction in modern Russia, the article was called here on the Military Review site, there are all who produce how many who produce. For you couch experts, Everything is gone, help guard.
    1. Caretaker 18 March 2020 20: 56 New
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      Quote: Andrey Mikhaylov
      Machine-tool construction in modern Russia

      I read it.
      Interested in the article "List of destroyed the largest and most high-tech enterprises."
      https://topwar.ru/30555-spisok-unichtozhennyh-naibolee-krupnyh-i-vysokotehnologichnyh-predpriyatiy.html
    2. ultra 18 March 2020 21: 47 New
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      Quote: Andrey Mikhaylov
      For you couch experts, Everything is gone, help guard.

      Such lovers of agitation are the most evil in modern Russia.
  • rocket757 18 March 2020 09: 10 New
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    Speaking about the level of development of machine tool industry in the country, we are, in fact, talking not so much about a separate industry as a major indicator of the economic development of the state, which very clearly describes the level of its growth or, on the contrary, degradation.

    This is really a DEFINITIVE indicator!
    Another situation with education, training of specialists is to add / consider, and you can with a high degree of certainty understand where we are going or going !!!
    1. cniza 18 March 2020 09: 55 New
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      We need to accept this at the level of the national project, otherwise everything will remain at the level of conversation ...
      Greetings! hi
      1. rocket757 18 March 2020 10: 51 New
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        Hi soldier
        Those interested in restoring the industrial power of the country should BE! But somehow it's all ... not ah, how noticeable.
        If the state intervenes, then it should be some kind of SUPER OFFICER, of the highest rank, whose goal of his activity should be concrete and for the COUNTRY!
        And now the question is - WHO CAN IT BE ???
        There is no answer, even approximately ....
        1. cniza 18 March 2020 11: 13 New
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          Quote: rocket757

          And now the question is - WHO CAN IT BE ???
          There is no answer, even approximately ....


          Appears, it is objective ...
          1. rocket757 18 March 2020 11: 15 New
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            Quote: cniza
            Appears, it is objective ...

            Boom, boom then rejoice all together.
            1. cniza 18 March 2020 11: 16 New
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              Joy is good, but you will have to plow and plow ...
              1. rocket757 18 March 2020 11: 18 New
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                I will teach, prepare a young replenishment of the ranks .... he himself, under the tired little kid.
                1. cniza 18 March 2020 13: 22 New
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                  And this is also not easy work and it is very in demand ...
                  1. rocket757 18 March 2020 13: 31 New
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                    Normal work, the main thing is not obligatory, but a voluntary hobby ... and with these small things how it turns out - They are to me, I - everything is adequate to them.
                    1. cniza 18 March 2020 13: 35 New
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                      That's for sure, they can also teach a lot ... yes
                      1. rocket757 18 March 2020 14: 02 New
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                        They have energy over the edge, covers and recharges constantly.
                        Good exchange, good for everything.
                      2. cniza 18 March 2020 14: 10 New
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                        Of course, and most importantly, they add optimism and hope ...
        2. Alf
          Alf 18 March 2020 20: 30 New
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          Quote: cniza
          Quote: rocket757

          And now the question is - WHO CAN IT BE ???
          There is no answer, even approximately ....


          Appears, it is objective ...

          If the country survives to this joyful moment.
          1. cniza 18 March 2020 21: 11 New
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            But we have no other choice, but Russia will survive, it has not yet chosen from such shit ...
            1. Alf
              Alf 18 March 2020 21: 17 New
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              Quote: cniza
              But we have no other choice, but Russia will survive, it has not yet chosen from such shit ...

              Yes, but only if the ruler changed to a statesman.
              1. cniza 18 March 2020 21: 18 New
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                This is so, but we have what we have and stand up to evil ...
            2. Butchcassidy 19 March 2020 10: 18 New
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              I totally agree.
  • Mihail55 18 March 2020 09: 27 New
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    Thanks for the article, Alexander! But why pour salt into the wounds ??? Yes, even at such a time ...
  • rudolff 18 March 2020 09: 30 New
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    And if we talk not just about machines, but about CNC machining centers, robot welders, assemblers, laser machines, printers ... Where will we be? It was like on an excursion at a car factory, the work of these manipulator arms is simply mesmerizing. A fantastic sight. The manipulator machines used in forestry made the same impression on me. I don’t know what they are called correctly. He grabs a tree, cuts it, cuts branches, shreds it to logs of a certain length, and neatly folds it.
    Machine tool industry is an indicator of the technological development of the state.
    1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 18 March 2020 12: 07 New
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      Quote: rudolff
      The manipulator machines used in forestry made the same impression on me. I don’t know what they are called correctly.

      Rudolph hi The harvester is called, can perform felling of trees, cutting branches and measuring the resulting wood. Awesome car, a masterpiece.
      1. rudolff 18 March 2020 12: 31 New
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        Thanks I'll know! The car is really amazing!
        good
        1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 18 March 2020 12: 37 New
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          It is much better to work comfortably in a warm, durable, closed cabin than to get wet with a chainsaw in the rain, snow, making yourself radiculitis fellow + The on-board computer, which keeps records of felled trees, provides information on the number and cubic capacity of sawn logs.
          1. rudolff 18 March 2020 12: 55 New
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            So this machine will replace the whole team of lumberjacks without straining! They know how to make high-quality equipment of the bourgeoisie ...
            I remember back in the 80s experienced a light shock. Some kind of construction site was in the suburbs and apparently important, the equipment was caught both ours and imported. Kato, Lokomo, some more. There is an excavator. Our. Huge, the bucket is not very large, all in oil, dirty, smokes, excavator aka homeless. Nearby is theirs. It’s half as much, the bucket is twice as large, the hydraulics do not flow anywhere, it’s clean, the cabin is super. The difference is just earth and sky. And then cranes happened to compare automobile. Ours is some kind of a boom with a reach of several meters, from a force of 10. And it’s kind of Japanese. I do not know how long this arrow was, but flew off somewhere into the sky. I still expected that he would roll over with such a boom! Nah ...
            1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 18 March 2020 13: 12 New
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              I remembered the old Soviet joke. A delegation of friendly Japanese arrived. Of particular interest to them were kindergartens and schools. Guests excitedly admired the Soviet kid. And at the last press conference they said that in the country of Soviets they really liked the children. “And our construction site, asphalt roads, quarters of new houses, cars, televisions,” repressed journalists. “Everything you do with your hands is terrible,” the head of the delegation could not stand. - But the children, the children you get are just wonderful.
              1. Alf
                Alf 18 March 2020 20: 32 New
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                Quote: Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
                Everything that you do with your hands is terrible, the head of the delegation could not stand. - But the children, the children you get are just wonderful.

                Another variant.
                But why children?
                Because you can’t do it with your hands.
    2. gsev 18 March 2020 19: 15 New
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      Quote: rudolff
      if we talk not just about machines, but about CNC machining centers,

      What is so unusual about CNC? Just making mechanics is an order of magnitude more complicated. 2 orders of magnitude more difficult to find and prepare, for example, a worker who knows how to properly scrape guides or balance the spindle. Moreover, knowing the attitude to working qualifications, not a single young person will go to study scribbling and balancing for 10 years. And not a single plant will give him a front of work for study.
      CNC is the ability to think logically, knowledge of mathematical algorithms. That is, in 6 months you can master the Chinese CNC and put it on your machine. For 3 years, you can study mathematics and make a CNC based on a computer. I saw how one person develops CNC, a step drive, an electric pulse generator, he collects and sells them. Moreover, the customer pays him looking at the cost of installation work, and the customer considers the complexity of development usually zero. Therefore, Yuhai products to such a specialist seem very expensive.
  • Mavrikiy 18 March 2020 09: 49 New
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    What place does Russia occupy in the global machine tool industry
    Definitely, the place of the USSR does not shine on her.
  • cniza 18 March 2020 09: 53 New
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    Nevertheless, one should not forget that this industry is impossible without attracting both a significant amount of material resources and highly qualified personnel. To ensure all this is real only at the state level. And this is absolutely necessary to do!


    It’s bitter to read everything, but you have to crawl out ...
  • Zoer 18 March 2020 09: 56 New
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    Quote: Malyuta
    In Japan, a leading engineer at Panasonic, 70-year-old Pirate Hurava tried to commit suicide by tearing his stomach with a sword - that is, by making hara-kiri. In a suicide note, he wrote that the laws of honor do not allow him to continue developing on the basis of the Little Tricks publications in the Soviet journal Science and Life, as well as patents of Soviet engineers stolen or bought up for nothing.

    I do not belittle the merits of Soviet engineers, and even vice versa. But about the Japanese, this is a fake.
  • Dmitry V. 18 March 2020 10: 01 New
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    In the Soviet Union, machine tool construction was developed at a very high level, but then ...


    It's a delusion.
    A simple example from the past - they bought a machine abroad. Submit to the design office - copy.
    Copy - the details are too many and expensive. Design Bureau reduces the number of parts - the accuracy of the machine falls by an order of magnitude ... In this form, it is launched into series.
    What can I say.

    For example, as an indicator of accuracy - Swiss machines, beds after casting are immersed at the bottom of the lake for 5-7 years for tempering castings (a stable temperature is maintained). Beds for highly precise machines - can be under water for decades. Before they are removed and processed.

    We always knew that our industry is not able to provide the necessary accuracy in our native machine tool park.
    Moreover, the machine park was worn out - runout, warpage, misalignment, floating parameters of inaccuracies - all the problems typical for the USSR machine tool fleet went into mechanical engineering.
    For precise work, machines abroad were purchased.
    A lot of machine tools were produced in the USSR, but their quality and assortment left much to be desired.

    The purchase of a submarine propeller blades processing machine at Wako Koeki bypassing sanctions is probably the most cited example (Toshiba-Kongsberg Case - Toshiba Machine Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk was discovered in 1987, and the sale and transfer of CNC metalworking machines itself NC-2000 - for example, a milling machine for the production of propellers MBP-110 worth $ 5 million dollars, in 1983 and 1984 only four 9-axis and four 5-axis machines).

    Wende A. Wrubel, The Toshiba-Kongsberg Incident: Shortcomings of COCOM, and Recommendations for Increased Effectiveness of Export Controls to the East Bloc, 1985
    1. NordUral 18 March 2020 10: 30 New
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      You write about single cases and unique machines and this is true. But the machine tool industry as a whole developed successfully, but everything was interrupted by perestroika. Indeed, the main problem is the course taken by the tops on copying, and not only in machine tool construction, which ultimately led to a lag. But the release of machine tools in the Union made it possible to close the basic needs of industry, although not to the full extent.
      And now the production of machine tools at the zero threshold, and the fact that only the brands are Russian, and we know where they are made.
      1. tihonmarine 18 March 2020 10: 49 New
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        Quote: NordUral
        You write about single cases and unique machines and this is true. But the machine tool industry as a whole developed successfully, but everything was interrupted by perestroika.

        And in 35 years, they could already have been ahead of China, which at that time had a simple turning and milling machine.
        1. NordUral 18 March 2020 11: 15 New
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          If only China, Vlad ...
        2. Dmitry V. 18 March 2020 14: 43 New
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          Quote: tihonmarine
          And in 35 years, they could already have been ahead of China, which at that time had a simple turning and milling machine.


          Could - but some woodpeckers shared oil and gas revenues and chuckled.

          And the Chinese invited the best manufacturers and gave them to build factories, produce components, then they began to copy it and have localized production and their own copied.
          Then they began to conduct their own development and to look for more modern machine tools - as a result, very good quality at an average price or not very good quality at a low price - they occupied two price niches in the machine market.

          I have been to machine-tool factories in China and Italy - they have Japanese and European machine parks and the level of production is comparable.

          Here is the machine tool production in Italy - a typical European assembly plant.
          They themselves make hydraulic spindles, beds and software, they buy the rest.

          In Russia, there is machine tool production, but in general there is no production of a modern element base, and making a bed is not the most valuable thing in a machine tool ...
          1. Golovan Jack 18 March 2020 15: 16 New
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            Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
            some woodpeckers

            The word is good, you need to remember laughing
      2. Dmitry V. 18 March 2020 14: 26 New
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        Quote: NordUral
        You write about single cases and unique machines and this is true. But the machine tool industry as a whole developed successfully, but everything was interrupted by perestroika


        What was the successful development of machine tool industry?
        I do not remember what would be created on the machine tool base of the USSR, valued higher.
        Take VAZ cars - the first series of kopecks collected from imported car kits imported from Italy were more valued in the market than assembled from parts made in the USSR.

        USSR machine tools are degraded versions of German, American machine tools.
        I had to communicate with some machine tool developers - I know how the process of “degrading” worked in the USSR.

        And the current "Russian machine-tool industry" is an article made of European engines, Japanese electronics with a different number of Chinese components - a domestic frame.
        There is no element base in Russia, which means NT and machine tool building.

        The Chinese themselves, like Italians, prefer to work at Japanese machining centers, mainly MAZAK.


        Even now I am engaged in tight machine tools (only from metalworking in the direction of the stone-struck).
        Here is the filling of a typical Chinese machine - a Japanese or European programmer (although there are Chinese ones), another element base or China or more expensive - Japan.
        The same made in the Russian Federation will cost more with a similar configuration.
        1. NordUral 18 March 2020 16: 32 New
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          Dmitry Vladimirovich! I wrote that, on the whole, it was successful, which, combined with supplies from the CMEA countries, made it possible to almost completely close the needs for machines. Problems were with submarine propeller machines and the like.
          1. Caretaker 18 March 2020 21: 04 New
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            Quote: NordUral
            Problems were with submarine propeller machines and the like.

            And these problems have been resolved.
    2. tihonmarine 18 March 2020 10: 45 New
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      Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
      A simple example from the past - they bought a machine abroad. Submit to the design office - copy.

      The whole world has been living like this for a long time, and there is nothing wrong with that. And this must be continued.
      1. Dmitry V. 18 March 2020 14: 47 New
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        Quote: tihonmarine
        The whole world has been living like this for a long time, and there is nothing wrong with that. And this must be continued.


        This is a fallacy - this is how China lives.
        Therefore, some series of new machines were not imported to China so that they would not be copied too quickly. Therefore, China does not produce the most modern designs.
        Nevertheless, intellectual property must be respected.
        1. gsev 18 March 2020 19: 22 New
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          Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
          Therefore, China does not produce the most modern designs.

          China will produce machines better than the Germans, when a specialist in the production of spindles and scrapers will earn accordingly. I suppose that soon at large Chinese state-owned enterprises, talented workers will be allowed to organize a type of small production with guaranteed payment for products at reasonable prices.
          1. Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 09: 04 New
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            Quote: gsev
            I suppose that soon at large Chinese state-owned enterprises, talented workers will be allowed to organize a type of small production with guaranteed payment for products at reasonable prices.


            Oh no - rather, such a specialist will be lured by another capitalist with money and make competitive production.
            In China, this is how clusters grow — competitors with smaller volumes and poorer quality are budged to a large plant — which I observed in machine building, in machine tools, in equipment or in spare parts.
            Very often I met that a technologist from a Chinese factory or designer, went to small competitors and offered similar products cheaper.
            Buying documentation from a Chinese factory is a common practice within the PRC.
  • ultra 18 March 2020 10: 07 New
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    Quote: ButchCassidy
    I do not think that this is objective data. We have never developed a machine tool industry. Much has been produced and is being produced on imported equipment - purchased,

    If you are not in the subject, then it’s better not to write.
  • NordUral 18 March 2020 10: 19 New
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    What is the joy of discussing what is not in Russia? We do not have machine tools, but what we have is tears. And these will never be.
    1. Altona 18 March 2020 11: 03 New
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      Quote: NordUral
      We do not have machine tools, but what we have is tears. And these will never be.

      ---------------------
      Zhenya, well, you have to think about it, look for specialists, design factories, then social and cultural life for them, then build development schedules, think for the future, develop science and education. In general, you need to strain your head. And then he promised the women broad money and children school breakfasts until the 4th grade, he didn’t even give them, and go enroll in the kings.
      1. NordUral 18 March 2020 11: 13 New
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        Zhenya, well, you have to think about it, look for specialists, design factories, then social and cultural life for them, then build development schedules, think for the future, develop science and education.

        The namesake is socialism. But these thoughts are not about the people, but about themselves loved ones. They don’t even know what else to assign to themselves, and the broad meaning of this word. National wealth, ranks, now noble titles. Typical plebeian desires.
      2. gsev 18 March 2020 19: 29 New
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        Quote: Altona
        And then he promised the women money

        V.V. Putin gave young women the opportunity to earn more than prostitution, as was the case under B.N. Edzine. In addition, he greatly saved them from sexual harassment at work. For the past 12 years I have not seen any inspectors in the market harassing saleswomen. Therefore, no one will vote for those who praise Yeltsin and the human rights activists who brought him to power.
        1. Altona 18 March 2020 20: 28 New
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          Quote: gsev
          V.V. Putin gave young women the opportunity to earn more than prostitution, as was the case under B.N. Edzine. In addition, he greatly saved them from sexual harassment at work.

          ---------------------------
          Well, how do you answer? As for prostitution, a new social group of the “kept woman” has appeared, where some girls aged 18-45 years tend to get. As for harassment at work, apparently about the rape of the investigator girl by her colleagues, in Bashkiria it seems you have not read the news.
          1. gsev 18 March 2020 22: 07 New
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            Quote: Altona
            apparently about the rape of the girl investigator with her

            This is an indicator generally in favor of a recent change in the situation for the better. Previously, it was easier for a policeman to coerce any Ukrainian woman chosen on the market or while checking registration on the market to cohabit. Moreover, the guides on the train, taxi drivers (there was a service — moving the Russian-Ukrainian border by taxi with preliminary robbery by customs officers or OVIR officers at the border), border guards, customs officers had power.
  • Altona 18 March 2020 10: 29 New
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    In order to present in detail what is at stake, I’ll talk a bit about what a modern CNC machine is like, since there are practically no engineers on this forum. The universal machine of 1960-1970 was a complex mechanism from a system of gears — called a “gearbox” or a “guitar” and an engine. In order to tune to the desired feed, it was necessary to configure the appropriate gears and belt drives. Naturally, with such a layout of the machine, part of the energy of the drive motor was expended on friction and losses in the mechanical transmission of the machine. For clarity, the drive motor had a power of 7,5 kW. Now what is a CNC machine like? It is the same drive motor, but controlled by a frequency converter, which will select the required number of revolutions with the appropriate commands from the operator’s computer and smooth out the starting currents, since there are no mechanical transmissions, then the required power of it 2 lower, and processing takes place at higher speeds thanks to the combined cutting tool. That is, we return to the elemental base, which we have from China. Our industry produces some machines, but they cost 2 times more expensive than Chinese. Rather, for clarity, the machine grew purely 3 million, with Chinese components 1,5 million, net Chinese-1 million (minus VAT, minus customs clearance). Draw your own conclusions.
    1. Dmitry V. 18 March 2020 14: 56 New
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      Quote: Altona
      That is, we return to the elemental base, which we have from China. Our industry produces some machines, but they cost 2 times more expensive than Chinese. Rather, for clarity, the machine grew purely 3 million, with Chinese components 1,5 million, net Chinese-1 million (minus VAT, minus customs clearance). Draw your own conclusions.


      +100500
      To the point.
      Itself how many times has been to Chinese machine-tool manufacturing - almost everything can be bought in China by element base.
      The difference in price will be if a good machine - then the chastotnik and the programmer will be imported - Japan or Europe, the rest is Chinese, if cheaper - only Chinese counterparts will stand.

      here is a good Chinese assembly production - the filling of the machine, the Mitsubishi programmer.
  • tihonmarine 18 March 2020 10: 42 New
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    Developing their own national economy, comrades from the Middle Kingdom initially sought to achieve as little as possible dependence on other people's technologies, and they succeeded completely.
    Nothing is new under the Moon, when it all started with the First Five-Year Plan. In the Middle Kingdom, this was remembered and also brought to life.
    1. Altona 18 March 2020 10: 59 New
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      Quote: tihonmarine
      Nothing is new under the Moon, when it all started with the First Five-Year Plan.

      -------------------------------------------------- ----
      At the moment, it is enough to revise the tax and financial policies with a view to reorienting them to stimulate domestic production, it is not even necessary to “build communism”. This alone will create employment and incomes plus infrastructure support. And with the existing commodity model, we only have the survival model (or compression) of the country and the oil and gas barons with zero at the head.
      1. NordUral 18 March 2020 11: 19 New
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        Eugene! Everything will be with grandfather Krylov with these and with this social system.
  • andj61 18 March 2020 11: 04 New
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    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    Maybe they stole it, maybe not, but the Japanese in the USSR fought ideas even from the "Youth Technique"

    And what does machine tool industry have to do with it? And in the 70s and 80s, we lagged behind the Germans, Japanese and Americans in the field of machine tools, as they said then, forever. And it is true. Poi West bought our machines from us! These were, basically, 16K20 various modifications, including CNC. They were many times cheaper than their Western counterparts. And if there is no difference, then why pay more? So they bought it. At the same time, we had good factories producing good machine tools - the Moscow Red Proletariat and them. S. Ordzhonikidze, Ivanovo Plant, Zalgiris Plant in Lithuania. But their products were significantly inferior in quality-accuracy-productivity, as well as manufacturability of machines manufactured in the West. At that time, we had advanced production
    presses of high power, but this is a single product. We were inferior to the mass, and greatly. The USSR then required a radical re-equipment of the machinery. The re-equipment ultimately happened - but by no means the products of the Russian machine-tool industry. This industry, of course, is worth developing. But it is desirable in cooperation with leading Western firms. German, Swiss and Japanese will certainly do. hi
    1. Altona 18 March 2020 11: 31 New
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      Quote: andj61
      These were, basically, 16K20 various modifications, including CNC. They were many times cheaper than their Western counterparts. And if there is no difference, then why pay more?

      ----------------------
      The Chinese are going the exact same way. If the machine is needed for the circulation of consumer goods, why pay more, especially since the masters are also not always much stronger in quality?
    2. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 11: 33 New
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      this is sarcasm, if not clear, about the Japanese, although I wouldn’t.
      Yes, we had lagging behind, but not dramatic, yes, the level of training was inferior to that of professional training, but we even caught up with Italy - the country then missed all the industrial revolutions, hello, to the kings-priests.
      Change was needed, who argues, were they possible? who is arguing? but what happened is the right path of development?
      I do not argue with you - these are rhetorical questions. I often visit the Ordzhonikidze machine-tool plant - there Auchan wink
      That's the whole upgrade.
      This industry, of course, is worth developing. But it is desirable in cooperation with leading Western firms. German, Swiss and Japanese will certainly do.

      These are obvious but rotten steps: why should they develop new competitors?
      1. andj61 18 March 2020 11: 56 New
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        No one will compete. But there is an alternative: to put the plant on a turn-key basis, or it will be bought from competitors. Plus the ability to organize assembly production with further deep localization of components. There are always options. Just now, machines are purchased exclusively for specific tasks. And no one deals with the development prospects of the industry, and this is the task of the relevant ministry.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 12: 07 New
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          Just now, machines are purchased exclusively for specific tasks. And no one deals with the development prospects of the industry, and this is the task of the relevant ministry.

          I AGREE, but today, to solve the problem, this is no longer the level of the ministry, but severely higher, however, now I can’t imagine the Minister of Machine Tool lol
          1. andj61 18 March 2020 12: 13 New
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            Now the relevant ministry is the ministry of industry, etc. and it’s simple to solve the problem - to pre-train workers, sites with the supply of energy resources - and to exempt from taxes for 10 years after the start of production. Or more. They will build everything themselves.
            1. Edward Vashchenko 18 March 2020 12: 56 New
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              It is naive - "nothing grows itself"
            2. Alf
              Alf 18 March 2020 20: 39 New
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              Quote: andj61
              Now the relevant ministry is the ministry of industry, etc. and it’s simple to solve the problem - to pre-train workers, sites with the supply of energy resources - and to exempt from taxes for 10 years after the start of production.

              And most importantly, provide them with orders, not the Chinese.
              1. Golovan Jack 18 March 2020 20: 47 New
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                Quote: Alf
                And most importantly, provide them with orders, not the Chinese

                This is really the most important thing. A small question for you: and how can this be done? If suddenly the Chinese (or someone else thread) will offer higher quality, but cheaper price? And they will do it, do not hesitate, even at a loss - to strangle a potential competitor ...

                (aside): that Gridasov - a program - is known. We’ll check it now, but Alf is also a program, or real? lol
    3. Dmitry V. 18 March 2020 14: 59 New
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      Quote: andj61
      And in the 70s and 80s, we lagged behind the Germans, Japanese and Americans in the field of machine tools, as they said then, forever. And it is true. Poi West bought our machines from us! These were, basically, 16K20 various modifications, including CNC.


      Only the majority here do not want to hear that the USSR was not in front of the entire planet in machine tool construction either ...
      Mythology of the USSR.
      1. Caretaker 18 March 2020 21: 14 New
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        Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
        Only the majority here do not want to hear that the USSR was not in front of the entire planet in machine tool construction either ...

        You are mistaken. The Germans and Japanese did not need some types of our unique machines.
        The instrument was also not in the last rows.
  • Mikhail3 18 March 2020 11: 38 New
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    We do not occupy any place in machine tools.
  • 16112014nk 18 March 2020 11: 53 New
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    Well, when compared to 1913 ...
    "... exactly 740 times more than in 1913 ....." © film "Operation" S "...
  • Operator 18 March 2020 12: 18 New
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    "Speaking about the level of development of machine tool industry in the country, we, in fact, are talking not so much about a separate industry, but about the most important indicator of the state’s economic development, which very clearly describes the level of its growth or, on the contrary, degradation ... Together with China, it’s among the three The leaders in the production and, consequently, export of machine tools include Japan and Germany, which account for at least half of the output of these products worldwide, with the United States, South Korea, Italy, Taiwan, and Switzerland following them behind (at least twice). . The share of other countries is estimated at a percentage and a half, or even less. " - it happened, the United States degraded laughing
    1. Korax71 18 March 2020 14: 30 New
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      Well, it depends on which side to look. On the production of machinery, yes, by demand, immediately in 2nd place after China. in terms of the amount of purchased machine equipment, we are still at a modest 8th place, which may not be so bad. request
  • iouris 18 March 2020 13: 21 New
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    Firstly, export-oriented machine tool building is needed. The great power has different priorities than other powers, and it is obliged to develop those technologies that ensure political independence. This will attract other high-tech industries. The whole range of machines is impossible and not necessary to produce.
    1. Altona 18 March 2020 13: 29 New
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      Quote: iouris
      Firstly, export-oriented machine tool building is needed.

      -------------------------
      It is necessary to restore the former economic space as before, the USSR + CMEA + the third world. A squeezing of its own market leads to industrial degradation. Russia is now more a subject of the engineering market than an actor. And we can return to many more niches of this market, but with the resources and political will. And “political will” dragged us to the WTO 9 years ago, and said yesterday that “exporting capital is good” and that “although it hurts, you have to pay your“ effective managers ”even higher than world standards, since foreign subordinates receive by world. " So forget it.
      1. Alf
        Alf 18 March 2020 20: 44 New
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        Quote: Altona
        but you have to pay your "effective managers" even above world standards,

        And then they will run away, but where to get others?
    2. gsev 18 March 2020 19: 40 New
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      Quote: iouris
      Firstly, export-oriented machine tool building is needed.

      Cheaper to open a resort cluster in Magadan than to organize the sale of machine tools abroad. China will make it cheaper and better. And the rest of the country, even if you don’t, will not buy, for fear of falling under sanctions. In addition, the Russian market is quite capacious, but to make a machine for Russia and sell it is also very difficult.
  • tolancop 18 March 2020 13: 44 New
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    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    ... For example, a good turner in the USSR usually studied not at vocational schools, but at a technical school: he could read drawings at the engineer level. Then, about ten years of work, with passing, not an exam, or whatever, but real exams for the “bison” category from their own production and reaching the 6-7th category. ...

    Artistic whistle ... TECHNIQUES were trained at technical schools, but not machine-tool workers ... Another thing is that workers often studied at techies on the job. Reading the drawings at the engineer level was fully trained in production, the main thing is that the production is appropriate - not a semi-artisanal barn, but more less modern ... And not a single technical school or university could give a level of practical training comparable to real production. I state my OWN experience ... And I began as a locksmith apprentice at a pilot plant in one of the research institutes. And nothing, taught to read the drawings quickly. When I later studied at the university I passed the heartache to the lungs.
    1. Altona 18 March 2020 13: 55 New
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      Quote: tolancop
      In technical schools they trained TECHNICIANS, not machine operators ...

      ---------------------------
      Here is the training - it is always necessary to look beyond the horizon and know what is being done and why. And in Soviet times, or rather, back in the years of the 1970s and beyond, all this bourgeoisie began to stick out and “get money”, and the working class itself degraded morally. Yes, I "earn", and "these engineers, the intelligentsia" and, accordingly, profiled the country. And now where is this "working class"? Correctly! hunched over for 25 pieces from the heroes of the Rotenberg Labor. So there you go.
    2. Alf
      Alf 18 March 2020 20: 47 New
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      Quote: tolancop
      And nothing, taught to read the drawings quickly.

      I handed over drafting in techie for 4, and we were torn so that redoing drawings 7-8 times was considered the norm. But, having got to the factory, I immediately received the fourth category of the CNC adjuster through SIX MONTHS.
      1. Altona 18 March 2020 21: 06 New
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        Quote: Alf
        But, having got to the factory, I immediately received the fourth category of the CNC adjuster through SIX MONTHS.

        -------------------------
        Vasily, 3 weeks ago from China we received 4 new CNC machines with a Siemens stand. The question was, whom to put? They put a guy who was a "organ grinder" on a universal milling machine of the 11th model. I twisted the dividing head by 2 turns and passed the gear teeth with a shaped cutter. And then they gave him 2 machines, invited the programmer to read a couple of lectures. So the guy immediately got carried away, he began to write simple programs. I downloaded and printed out the textbook from Sinumerik, brought the tool, invited the installer to work on setting up the machine. Now he has learned to snap a tool. The guy's eyes lit up, he transformed right. He began to respect himself. He uses the corrector, checks the details with a cork, another guy was assigned skills to receive him. In general, people are our wealth, our human capital.
        1. Alf
          Alf 18 March 2020 21: 12 New
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          Quote: Altona
          In general, people are our wealth, our human capital.

          Yes, there are those who do not want to become office plankton.
        2. tolancop 19 March 2020 12: 21 New
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          Altona, , at my factory it seemed ... The CNC-turner-shnik was gone. We invited a turner from a conventional machine. Turner was cool, but aged. They helped to figure out what's what. He liked it so much !!! After a couple of months, he wrote the programs for his CNC. True, 30 years passed, however.
  • qaz
    qaz 18 March 2020 15: 23 New
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    Belarus also supplies us with machines, but of course it is mainly foreign and servicing them is a very, very expensive pleasure.
    1. Uncle Izya 18 March 2020 20: 10 New
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      In Belarus, in Gomel, robots made machines for the whole union, like a mustachioed ditched everything
  • Shuttle 18 March 2020 16: 24 New
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    A plan is needed, otherwise the markets have already decided.
  • wzlrwth 18 March 2020 17: 48 New
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    Until the age of 91, the USSR occupied 3-4th place in the world in export and 4-5th place in import of machine tools. The country was a key player in the market of machine tools and presses. Our main competitors were Japan, Germany, USA, Switzerland. Today, our place in export is 27th, in import, let’s say so in the top ten. In the secondary market in Europe, many Soviet used machine tools are offered under the common brand of Stanko, which are considered inexpensive and reliable equipment, now they are mainly universal 16K20,16B16, 6T13, GF2171, 2611,2622, 2E450AF1 and others. Own and purchased, but not launched equipment in the 90s was exported worth 10 times more than weapons. The most sad thing for us is that at the turn of the 20th-21st centuries a machine-tool revolution took place, drives, actuators, control systems almost reached the limit, which, together with effective tool designs, allows us to solve any technological problem on the equipment of modern machine tool leaders. Without the production of such systems at our enterprises, talking about any technological breakthrough is a waste of time.
    1. Altona 18 March 2020 19: 45 New
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      Quote: wzlrwth
      The most sad thing for us is that at the turn of the 20th-21st centuries a machine-tool revolution took place, drives, actuators, control systems almost reached the limit, which, together with effective tool designs, allows us to solve any technological problem on the equipment of modern machine tool leaders.

      ---------------------------
      Vladimir, here we are again returning to digitalization, and not only production, but everything and everything, including car components and other equipment. The USSR, in the person of its decaying leadership, rejected the production of electronics and electronic components, and generally branded cybernetics as the "corrupt girl of imperialism." And the mathematical schools of the USSR and the scientific base in general made it possible to make a revolution both in software and in hard, but alas, they caught on late and began to make Western analogues using outdated Western equipment. And today, in general, we use digitalization to build digital handcuffs and the Big Tax Brother instead of (Golovan Jack-Roman, by the way, is engaged in such “construction”) in order to use it for peaceful and reasonable purposes ..
  • Artavazdych 18 March 2020 18: 06 New
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    Russia has good potential resources in the machine tool industry, especially as far as artificial intelligence is concerned. Russian traditionally disgustingly do what is put on the conveyor. However, the Russian skate in non-standard solutions. In particular, in the creation of robots, creating robots. There are backlogs.
  • Uncle Izya 18 March 2020 20: 08 New
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    In 1990, in the RSFSR alone, about 17 thousand of them were released. By the end of the “dashing 90s,” the output was reduced 167 times!
    So how many years have passed already how much can you write about the 90s and things are still there sns machines Russia buys mainly in Japan
  • Uncle Izya 18 March 2020 20: 09 New
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    Quote: Uncle Izya
    In 1990, in the RSFSR alone, about 17 thousand of them were released. By the end of the “dashing 90s,” the output was reduced 167 times!
    So how many years have passed already how much can you write about the 90s and things are still there cnc machines Russia buys mainly in Japan
  • Khoja Nasredin 19 March 2020 02: 27 New
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    but in 1914, Russia ... ... ......
  • Jager 19 March 2020 07: 29 New
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    It is interesting, and in which areas, except for raw materials and related, as well as "secrecy and spirituality" ™, the Russian Federation is doing well?
    1. EvilLion 19 March 2020 13: 39 New
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      Nuclear power, aircraft manufacturing. This is what catches the eye. Let’s not recall, let’s say, my tire factory exporting products to dozens of countries and anything else that people willingly buy in the world.
      1. Jager 19 March 2020 20: 16 New
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        aircraft industry? Is it possible in more detail?
  • ZaharoFF 19 March 2020 08: 55 New
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    Shameful place. And the gap is not visible. No matter how many noodles we put on our inflated ears. recourse
  • RusGr 19 March 2020 09: 37 New
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    In the city of Voronezh, there is a TMP Plant (more precisely, what remains of it) producing heavy, mechanical presses. There are several such plants in the world, but it is moderately destroyed, and in February 200 people were reduced. Due to "lack of demand." China, Japan purchased machine tools at the factory, but management is changing and everything is planting production. Territories for rent, etc. Really, our country does not require machines, heavy metallurgy? Where is the revival of our own production, import substitution?
    1. EvilLion 19 March 2020 13: 36 New
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      Most likely, metallurgists that they have already bought. In 10 years they’ll come again. And so it resembles the whining of Ukrainian shipbuilders, demanding that they order warships, but more. They also need a salary, and then what they will do with their products, they do not care.
  • wzlrwth 19 March 2020 10: 40 New
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    Quote: RusGr
    In the city of Voronezh, there is a TMP Plant (more precisely, what remains of it) producing heavy, mechanical presses. There are several such plants in the world, but it is moderately destroyed, and in February 200 people were reduced. Due to "lack of demand." China, Japan purchased machine tools at the factory, but management is changing and everything is planting production. Territories for rent, etc. Really, our country does not require machines, heavy metallurgy? Where is the revival of our own production, import substitution?

    I agree TMP and Kolomna were completely in the topic of the world division of machine tool labor. And if you also remember Enikmash where the first Soviet industrial robots were made, then there was something to be proud of. Billionaires from the feeder will not solve this problem, specialists will close it in twenty years and $ 20 billion. It is fast and not expensive.
    1. Jager 19 March 2020 20: 20 New
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      Kolomna ZTS destroyed. They turned in serviceable machine tools and equipment for metal ... How did the Kolomna diesel locomotive hold out - only God knows
  • Sars 19 March 2020 10: 55 New
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    A simple personal example. My company, shortly before bankruptcy, won a tender for the supply of two six hundred ton presses. So, our cost is only for the purchase of metal (without the work of subcontractors, without hydraulics, without electronics - electricians). It turned out to be higher than the cost of the finished press in China.
  • place 19 March 2020 11: 52 New
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    I OFFER THE HYPOTHESIS:
    The death of industry in the Russian Federation is an inevitable consequence of the rapid industrialization of the USSR. The fact is that tens of millions with the psychology of serf peasants of the 18th century turned out to be unusually quickly in newly built cities.

    THIS POWERFUL WAVE OF THE PEASANTIES ABSOLUTELY HAS NO DESIRE TO STUDY AND WORK IN INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE. In spirit, they are neither city residents nor now. This is still evident in the "features of national recreation and everyday life."

    But they had a desire to live "like in Europe." Those of them who became party functionaries and supported with both hands such ideas of Khrushchev and Co. as currency extraction by selling oil. And it started "reverse development" until it came to a logical ending.

    BOROZE MEN'S REACHED HIS "MEN'S PARADISE ON THE EARTH". What the hell is machine tool building, they have no idea about such things ........ Remember at least the face of the "popularly elected" EBN ....... and its level of culture, and yet he is a popular favorite early 90s !!!.
  • Dmitriyag 19 March 2020 12: 50 New
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    They don’t need a strong and smart country. They need natural resources and a cheap slave force. And they can let dust in their eyes, at all levels
  • EvilLion 19 March 2020 13: 33 New
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    Of course, I am wildly sorry, but the machines have 2 key properties:
    1) paucity. In extreme cases, turning into uniqueness, when the machine is some kind of press of thousands of tons, operating at only a few factories in the world.
    2) Very long service life.

    I work at a tire factory, the modernization process here is generally continuous, constantly something new is being installed somewhere, the more factories there are already 3 pieces behind one fence. On the one hand there are still Soviet machine tools. Yes, unproductive, modern assembly complexes are about 6 times more productive, but the products are cheap and they are willing to buy them. And if you buy new equipment, you will have to beat off its cost, which means the products will be more expensive. The number of even mass units for such production (assembly machines, vulcanizers) is calculated at one plant by several tens, maybe over a hundred. And each unit will work for at least 20 years, but rather longer. So consider how many tire factories are in Russia, and how many, say, they need vulcanizer-formatters per year, if every few years, the plant upgrades and installs 20 new formatters. Just the order of several tens of units is obtained.

    Of course, at such rates of renewal and volumes of demand, the market turns out to be almost closed to new suppliers who must invest and develop their equipment, organize their production and then somehow cram through competitors. Even aircraft building programs in this regard are easier to obtain. And whining about Putin, who supposedly ruined something there, will not help here. Nothing will help here at all, simply because if a hypothetical import substitution in this category requires investments of tens, if not hundreds of times higher than those that can be done, then the situation will not change fundamentally. It will be easier for factories to buy unique or small-scale equipment abroad, from some ZF, which has long been on the mechanics market.

    Well, the production of means of production in itself cannot be comparable in volume with the production of means of consumption (the truck here I also understand as a means of consumption, since it is the final product, even if it works at a construction site), just otherwise all meaning is lost. It is as if every programmer wrote code for each purpose, and did not take ready-made code from libraries. If Russia will produce all the necessary machine tools itself, then it will only produce machines.
    1. place 19 March 2020 16: 04 New
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      Quote: EvilLion
      If Russia will produce all the necessary machine tools itself, then it will only produce machines.

      ----------------

      Wow ....... deep. And if Russia will not produce any machines at all?
      Then even deeper.
      And China, Japan, Germany - produce machines, but for some reason not only one machine ......
      Well, what to take from them, they are probably so stupid of their kind.
      1. EvilLion 19 March 2020 17: 00 New
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        And what, they themselves produce 100% of the machines for themselves? There is hardly such a country in the world. Moreover, they have already occupied the market, and the plant conditionally makes 10 machines for itself, 90 for sale, with us it will only make 10 for itself, maybe another 5 for sale where-to-thread to Kazakhstan.

        And do not write nonsense, Russia produces what is beneficial to it, or needs to be produced, since it is impossible to buy. The joke is that trade is a double-edged sword and the prohibition of sale always hits the seller. Therefore, even with ukrai, bargaining is not completely broken until now.
  • nekromonger 19 March 2020 14: 09 New
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    an article by no man far from mechanical engineering, I’ll tell you a secret that the Soviet Union was also lagging behind in the production of MODERN CNC machine tools and in the defense industry, where since the late 80s I have been operating a significant part of the fleet of CNC machines from Germany, Japan, Switzerland and many of them work until so far, and ours were the simplest with 2P22 racks and the like, but now you yourself know in which part of the body we are.
    1. place 19 March 2020 16: 19 New
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      Quote: nekromonger
      I’ll tell you a secret that the Soviet Union was also far behind in the production of MODERN machine tools


      I will reveal another secret : and the Russian Empire was far behind. And even began to produce ball bearings only in 1916, and then together with Sweden ...... The fact is that we have 1000 years-the psychology of the Papuans. If we do not grow machines on trees, then you need to buy them where they grow. There is no other way for us.

      The fact is that a normal society should make efforts to develop its industry even in the event that she at the moment lagging behind. For example, Japan produced its first computer in 1964, and in the USSR in the 50s there was their production, not inferior to IBM.
      1. EvilLion 19 March 2020 17: 01 New
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        The Russian Empire with 85-90% of the peasant population sat at the bottom of the Mariana Trench, which was shown by the WWII.
  • pafegosoff 19 March 2020 17: 39 New
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    There was so much talk before Chubais about Kabaidze and his factory in Ivanovo!
    Further. Well, they teach us machine-tool engineers ... So what? Then someone goes where. In principle, if the state needed it, there would be help in finding a job and with housing, and so - there is no work in the specialty, there is nowhere to live and nothing ...
    Not needed! And Chubais are not crawling on construction sites in Yamal in a striped robe, but go to the Bilderberg Group ...
  • Levius RU 19 March 2020 21: 31 New
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    the author. What was that ? This is even the average temperature in the hospital. This is just a set of beeches for reporting the grant spent. Vaaosobiniochem
  • Dzafdet 20 March 2020 06: 57 New
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    Quote: Mestny
    Quote: Malyuta
    But you will not deny that the development of Soviet scientists, engineers, designers, enthusiasts were exported abroad in tons for a penny. You cannot deny the fact that a mobile phone and a microwave oven were invented in the USSR!

    But you will not argue that even if it is true - how did it happen that in the conditions of the most advanced economy of the world, this did not turn out to be necessary for anyone?
    How could it so happen that the inventors sold it all for a penny to foreigners?

    In the patent service sat people of known nationality who directly transferred everything to the Americans. Only closed patents did not have access to the Americans until the collapse of the USSR.