The death of the ship "Armenia". Black Sea War Crime


Motor ship "Armenia" Photo: ru.wikipedia.org


Marine evacuation


The outbreak of World War II forced the navy to put on medical service many ships of various classes, which then played a significant role in the evacuation of the wounded. So, in the Black Sea navy the ships brought to the rear 412 332 wounded and sick, 36 273 in the Baltic Fleet and 60 749 in the Northern Fleet. As you can see, the traffic volume was simply gigantic, and it was impossible to manage only hospital (sanitary-transport) ships. Therefore, temporarily allocated ships and military vessels were attracted, especially since on average there were no more than 12-13 specialized ships on each fleet. For example, in the Black Sea Fleet during the entire period of the war, 273 ships participated in the evacuation, of which only 13 were specialized hospitals. For military medical needs, the passenger liners Georgia, Ukraine, Crimea, Adjaria and Armenia were remade "(Then tragically perished).


Sanitary and transport "Lviv". Photo: pikabu.ru

A typical alteration to a floating hospital was the removal of first-class partitions, repainting (often into deforming disguise) and the organization of an operating room with dressing points on a ship. So, the Lviv motor ship, after such an adaptation, had 5 doctors, 12 nurses and 15 orderlies on staff - during the war years it evacuated almost 12,5 thousand wounded in 35 flights. It is easy to calculate that at one time the ship took about 340-360 people from the coast, which did not exceed the maximum capacity of 400 patients. The record-holder among sanitary transports is the motor ship "Abkhazia", ​​which managed to almost 1942 thousand people in just 31 voyages until mid-33. It is also reliably known that once during the voyage the ship was able to evacuate 2085 people at once - this was also a record.

Literary sources even cite data on the condition of those evacuated - in first-line medical transports, for every 5 people, only 1 was recumbent, the rest were walking. In ships of the second line, a similar ratio was already 50% to 50%. In most cases, evacuation on ships was subject to all patients without exception (even slightly injured), since it was necessary to quickly prepare the reserves of the hospital bed in hospitals. In the region of Odessa and Sevastopol, evacuees arrived at medical ships immediately from the front, bypassing field hospitals, which required the provision of first aid already on board. In operating rooms and dressings, bleeding was stopped, wounds were treated, shock was removed, tires and gypsum were applied, and saline and glucose were transfused. Special care was for patients with concussions and bruises of the brain, as well as penetrating wounds of the abdomen and skull. Those unfortunate with such wounds were hard to move, so they were placed in the central part of the vessel at a distance from the engine room. Due to the fact that first-line vessels often took 2-4 times more wounded from the shore (because of this, the ratio of lying and sitting was 1: 5), special ship medical groups were organized. The composition consisted of 2-4 doctors, 4-8 paramedics or sisters, 16-25 orderlies and 1 quartermaster.

Summarizing the above, it can be argued that the total amount of medical care on hospital ships was small - this was due to the short-term evacuation, as well as the congestion of the wounded parts of the ships. One of these was the ship "Armenia", which, with a nominal capacity of 400 wounded, on November 7, 1941 took about 5000-7000 people on board.

80 out of 7 thousand survivors


The “Armenia” motor ship left on November 6 from Sevastopol in Tuapse, after taking on board the wounded and sick, the fleet hospitals (about 250 people), as well as the heads of the medical service of the Black Sea Fleet and flotillas (60 people). Initially, loading in Sevastopol took place on November 3, 4 and 5 on the Tuapse and Joseph Stalin tankers, and then only on Armenia. But since the release date of the tankers was not clearly defined, everyone had to be transferred immediately to the ship. In total, the ship was staffed by five naval hospitals, one base sanatorium, sanitary-epidemiological laboratory, 5th medical rank and part of the sanitary department of the Black Sea Fleet. As the safety rules required, the ship went to sea on the evening of November 6, unexpectedly went to the outer raid of Balaklava to take on board the NKVD officers and the personnel of local hospitals. That same night, “Armenia” arrives in Yalta, where it picks up its last passengers - the total number of people on board at that time, according to various sources, varies from 5 to 7 thousand. Next, on November 7, it got dark to go to Tuapse destination. But the ship's captain Vladimir Plaushevsky suddenly goes to sea in the morning.

At 11 hours 45 minutes off the coast near Gurzuf, the ship is torpedoed by the German He-111 torpedo bomber. The ship goes to the bottom in just four minutes. At least two torpedoes were fired, one of which hit the bow of the ship. Among the options, the assumption is considered that two Heinkels attacked “Armenia” at once, dropping two torpedoes each. According to another version, eight "Junkers" destroyed the sanitary vessel with bombs, as evidenced by the Crimean Anastasia Popova, who survived in that hell. She heard several explosions during the attack, only by a miracle she did not suffer and managed to jump overboard. There is also evidence of observers who saw circling planes around the “Armenia” from the Crimean Mountains and even heard the cries of the unfortunate - the ship was so close to shore before it died. It is worth saying that the ship was not at sea alone - it was covered by two patrol vessels, which either retreated from the guarded “Armenia” or did not manage to do anything due to a lightning attack.

The death of the ship "Armenia". Black Sea War Crime
The Soviet ambulance "Abkhazia" sunk in the Sukharnoy beam of Sevastopol. The ship was sunk on 10.06.1942 as a result of a German air raid by a bomb falling into the stern. Photo: waralbum.ru

As a result, they were able to save only 80 people (according to other sources, 8). Of course, the ambulance ship had identification marks that uniquely alert the enemy about the state of passengers. But also on board was a pair of 45-mm anti-aircraft guns, guards from patrol ships and, according to some reports, even a couple of fighters covered “Armenia”. All this gave individual historians a reason to formally justify the war crime of the Luftwaffe, during which about 7 thousand people were killed. This, by the way, is much more than in the resonant disasters of the Titanic and Lusitania.

Of course, the most important mistake of the command was a reckless order to go to sea in the morning, when earlier there were precedents on the Black Sea for the barbaric attitude of Germans to ambulance transport: in the summer, the Chekhov and Kotovsky ships were attacked from the air, flying the Red Cross flags. The only question is, whose order was it? The ship’s commander himself, Captain-Lieutenant Vladimir Plaushevsky, would not have dared to go to sea in the early morning — he was an experienced navigator and had managed to transport about 10 thousand wounded on August 1941, 15 (the date the ship was handed over to the military).

One of the reasons for the early exit in Tuapse could be provocative rumors about the Germans attacking Yalta. But the Germans appeared in the city only on November 8. Questions also arise about the reasons for the ship unexpectedly entering the outer raid of Balaklava, where "Armenia" took the NKVD officers. According to one version, the Chekists took valuables from museums and archives of the Crimea with them.

In the 2000s, Ukrainians made an attempt to find “Armenia” on the seabed, allocated $ 2 million and attracted Robert Ballard, director of the Massachusetts Institute of Oceanography, for this. A huge section of the water area was examined with a bathyscaphe, but no medical vessel was found. Among the finds of search engines were 494 historical sites that had never been featured anywhere before: ancient Greek ships, submarines, planes and ships of two world wars, as well as the Soviet anti-submarine helicopter with crew inside ... One of the reasons for the futile search could be the difficult bottom topography in the Gurzuf area, abounding failures, in one of which the sinking “Armenia” could slip. According to another version, the ship's commander was ordered not to sail in Tuapse, but to return to Sevastopol. On November 7, 1941, at 2.00, Stalin signed the VGK Headquarters Directive No. 004433 to the Commander of the Crimea, the Black Sea Fleet on measures to strengthen the defense of the Crimea, in which the main task of the Black Sea Fleet was the active defense of Sevastopol and the Kerch Peninsula with all available forces. It was at least impractical to take out several thousand personnel of military hospitals in Tuapse in this case. It is possible that “Armenia” turned to Sevastopol and was sunk somewhere west of the previously proposed place - approximately on the beam of Cape Sarych. The Ukrainian mission in this area did not organize searches.


Military doctors of the besieged Sevastopol. Photo: pravoslavie.ru

The death of “Armenia” seriously bleached the medical service of the Black Sea Fleet: they lost both the senior staff and doctors, paramedics and nurses of Sevastopol and Yalta hospitals. In the future, this negatively affected the ability of the medical service to provide assistance to the wounded and sick. The echo of the sunken “Armenia” was felt for a long time on the fronts of World War II.
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  1. Russian jacket 8 February 2020 05: 19 New
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    Thank you for the article. Informative.
    PS And our liberals howl about the "criminal" Marinesco, forgetting the same "Armenia" and not even knowing about the British "Athenia" ....
    1. Astra wild 8 February 2020 07: 41 New
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      I haven’t heard anything about the Athenaeum
      1. Phil77 8 February 2020 08: 46 New
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        * Athenia * - passenger airliner, sunk by U-30,3 September 1939, XNUMX a few hours after the appearance of the war * government of the UK Germany. This ship was the first victim of German submariners of this war.
        1. bubalik 8 February 2020 09: 06 New
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          Phil77
          Today, 09: 46

          ,,, Germans hid this fact.
          ,,, interestingly, on May 9, 1941, the U 110 boat was captured in battle by the British, and Lemp (before that the U 30 commander), died under unclear circumstances.
          ,,, were encrypted codes for the "Enigma" entailed many failures of German boats.

          U 30
          1. Phil77 8 February 2020 09: 10 New
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            Hi Sergey !!! We haven’t talked for a long time! But to the topic ... And I guess it’s quiet, that one! They took revenge, in a word.
            1. bubalik 8 February 2020 09: 12 New
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              DD! hi everything can be. what
              1. Phil77 8 February 2020 09: 15 New
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                Here is * Enigma * - a useful and important thing! A cryptographer? Also a useful person. A corvette captain? Well, one more, one less?
                1. Catfish 8 February 2020 14: 39 New
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                  Seryozha, hi! drinks It depends on which Corvette captain. Otto Kretschmer, for example, became the first commander of the Bundesmarin, and no one could surpass him by tonnage until the end of the war, and he was captured as early as the 41st year, if I am not mistaken. .
                  1. Phil77 8 February 2020 15: 57 New
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                    Greetings to Konstantin! Well, I’m figuratively so. * How many Pedro are in Brazil? And I can’t count! * But if I seriously made a mistake about the rank, he reached only the lieutenant commander!
                    1. Pane Kohanku 8 February 2020 23: 48 New
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                      Colleagues, just submarines - it's real Sergey theme our Bubalik ... soldier I repeat once again: you know a person on the site, and suddenly he begins to write things that no one knows. Yes, this is Bubalik! good drinks
          2. Phil77 8 February 2020 09: 45 New
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            But this Lemp also torpedoed * And he received the Knight's Cross! But not immediately. And he sat behind House Athena * under house arrest.
          3. Catfish 8 February 2020 14: 34 New
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            Sergey, hello! hi I read that eyewitnesses told how Lemp jumped into the sea already from the side of the British ship and sailed to the boat, which was already submerging. Nobody saw how he died, at least the British say so. And his "happiness" that he died, our allies did not forgive the Germans for such "feats" and after the victory they simply put him to the wall.
            But there were few lempes, remember the incident with Laconia and Gartenstein. A very good film was even made, where the Americans were exposed as unscrupulous bastards for ordering to bomb boats with helpless people.
            1. Phil77 8 February 2020 15: 59 New
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              So these eagles shot him. By the way, on the cabin of his boats there was always an image of a fox terrier.
    2. Olgovich 8 February 2020 08: 02 New
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      Quote: Russian quilted jacket
      And our liberals howl about the "criminal" Marinesco

      Marinesco drowned several hundred Nazi submariners on the ship of the German Navy.
      There is nothing to complain about.

      "Armenia" was armed only after a series of already committed German aircraft offenses against medical transports:
      In July 1941, the Kotovsky ambulance was attacked and damaged. "Adjara" came under heavy bombing. As a result of the fire and continued shelling, the ship was destroyed. In August, the ship "Kuban" sank.

      Thereafter four 45 mm 21K guns were installed on “Armenia”


      The command was FORCED to defend ships in conditions where the Nazis did not comply nothing of the rules of warfare ...

      The grossest mistake was to force the ship to go into Yalta. Night was LOST due to loading operations, and on the morning of November 7 he found it in Yalta.

      Yalta didn’t have any air defense — to stay for a day meant to die 100% as a standing target in the port, and the Germans were on the approaches (they entered on November 8).

      At sea, there was at least some chance to maneuver ...

      It was impossible to risk so many people and make the ship go into Yalta ...
      1. Phil77 8 February 2020 09: 28 New
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        Good morning, Andrei! In general, the ship was covered, two * guard *, two fighters * Seagull *. And this attack? A tragic accident ... alas! And I repeat, but to sink a hospital ship?! This is beyond.
        1. bubalik 8 February 2020 09: 36 New
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          Sergey, the film ,, Twice Born ,, good
          1. Phil77 8 February 2020 09: 43 New
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            But I watched it, though for a long time already. Events are taking place on the White Sea, a guy survived there. Good movie! hi
          2. Okolotochny 8 February 2020 10: 16 New
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            This is when Messer shot down from a rifle with one cartridge?
        2. Xnumx vis 8 February 2020 09: 46 New
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          Quote: Phil77
          Good morning, Andrei! In general, the ship was covered, two * guard *, two fighters * Seagull *. And this attack? A tragic accident ... alas! And I repeat, but to sink a hospital ship?! This is beyond.

          there were no faces during the Second World War. Gas chambers, camps for taking blood from children ... One horror and death.
          1. Phil77 8 February 2020 09: 48 New
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            I will say this. This is one of many, many, many Nazi CRIMES during the war.
        3. Olgovich 8 February 2020 10: 41 New
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          Quote: Phil77
          Good morning, Andrey! In general, the ship was covered, two * guard *, two fighters * Seagull *

          Hello Sergey!

          He was so “covered up" that no one really can say who sank the dive vessel or torpedo bomber ....
          "gulls" - how much could they "hang" in the air?

          Such ships went mainly at night — she was the best defense, and this time was lost ...
          Quote: Phil77
          And I repeat, but to sink a hospital ship ?! This is beyond.

          The beast!
          1. Phil77 8 February 2020 11: 00 New
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            Andrey! Very 41 years old ... Imagine the situation as it was at that moment! Cover? Well, what they could provide, that was. To this we can add an element of surprise. Alas, this war.
        4. Sergey S. 8 February 2020 11: 16 New
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          Quote: Phil77
          In general, the ship was concealed, two * guard *, two fighters * Seagull *. And this attack? A tragic accident ... alas!

          I can’t judge how accurate the information is, but ...
          At this time, a group of partisans rose from Yalta to the Yailu, a flat, flat peak of mountains. German planes flew over their heads and bombed on "Armenia" within the line of sight of the partisans.
          I don’t understand how Armenia was not found ...
          Perhaps the main searches were aimed at something else.
          1. CT-55_11-9009 15 February 2020 03: 20 New
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            Quote: Sergey S.
            At this time, a group of partisans rose from Yalta to the Yailu, a flat, flat peak of mountains. German planes flew over their heads and bombed on "Armenia" within the line of sight of the partisans.

            Vergasov wrote about this. "Crimean notebooks".
            1. Sergey S. 15 February 2020 14: 42 New
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              Quote: CT-55_11-9009
              Vergasov wrote about this. "Crimean notebooks".

              I know ... but how accurate is the information?
              Vergasov was silent for a very long time.
              He published his “Notebooks” when practically no one was left of the leaders of the Crimean partisans.
              I respect this book very much, like many other similar eyewitness books, but life is such that even without any intention, there may be inaccuracies in such distant memories ... And the distance from the mountain road to "Armenia" was quite large.
      2. Constanty 8 February 2020 10: 45 New
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        During the war, Gustloff was a hospital court for several months 1939:


        but in 1945 he did not meet the requirements of such a ship, and the torpedo of the auxiliary court, which was in the column of warships, was fully consistent with military law, in particular the 1936 London Agreement regulating the principles of submarine warfare. During the preparation of the last voyage of the ship, a number of cardinal errors were made, the most important of which were the use of an armed auxiliary fleet ship to evacuate civilians, admission to its significant overload, and sending it on a cruise
        escorted by a warship.

        Marinesco was right
        1. Olgovich 8 February 2020 12: 03 New
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          Quote: Constanty
          During the preparation of the last voyage of the ship, a number of cardinal errors were made, the most important of which were the use of an armed auxiliary fleet ship to evacuate civilians, admission to its significant overload, and sending it on a cruise
          escorted by a warship.

          Marinesco was right

          Certainly: he had guns, transported the military and was part of the Navy — a legitimate target by all rules.

          And the Germans were in a better situation: they were able to save up to 1500 people, 8 were saved from Armenia (max 80).

          PS At VO there was a commentator whose grandfather died in Armenia ....
          1. Operator 8 February 2020 13: 28 New
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            In addition, the Gustloff was camouflaged in 1945, there were no red cross marks on the sides and the upper deck, and when navigating the sea, the identification lights were not turned on.
        2. Niko 11 February 2020 19: 35 New
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          The captain in difficult conditions drowning this or that ship, if it’s not right, at least can be justified, and people who, after 75 years, sitting on the couch justify the killing of thousands of civilians (both in Armenia and Guslov) are definitely ANIMALS. (On By the way, Armenia also had guns and military
          1. Constanty 11 February 2020 20: 00 New
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            And who justify the murder? Rather, they are trying to understand how this tragedy looked like from international law. This has nothing to do with justifying this fact.
            1. Niko 11 February 2020 20: 23 New
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              Ok, then the impression is (as usual) THEY and the animals, and WE are doing exactly the same thing, or even worse, well done
            2. Niko 11 February 2020 20: 25 New
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              And international law is unambiguous - if there are guns on the ship, it’s a legitimate aim (only from this, children, wounded, refugees, do not feel any relief)
    3. Petrograd 9 February 2020 19: 54 New
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      so it happens that they repent of themselves repent of and sprinkle ashes on their heads how can without it?
    4. karabas86 14 February 2020 11: 06 New
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      And they always have it - here I see here I do not see.
  2. Ross xnumx 8 February 2020 05: 38 New
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    Thanks to the author.
    The article is informative in that it shows the bestial cruelty of fascism. A memo to those who have never seen these atrocities, but stabs a swastika on their bodies and pulls out a little hand in greeting.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. DMB 75 8 February 2020 05: 58 New
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      Quote: ROSS 42
      shows the bestial cruelty of fascism.


      Especially since
      Earlier on the Black Sea there were precedents of the barbaric attitude of Germans towards ambulance transport: in the summer, the Chekhov and Kotovsky ships were attacked from the air, being under the flags of the Red Cross.

      Fascists in a word.
      1. Tatyana 8 February 2020 06: 53 New
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        Quote: ROSS 42
        The article is informative in that it shows the bestial cruelty of fascism. A memo to those who have never seen these atrocities, but stabs a swastika on their bodies and pulls out a little hand in greeting.

        With the current liberal upbringing of Russian youth, alas, some people, although they don’t stick a swastika on their bodies and don’t pull their hands in a Nazi salute, but they make heartbreaking reports in the German Bundestag about the “innocently killed” German invaders of the Second World War, as it was blatantly happened in November 2017 with gymnasium students from N. Urengoy and Berlin.

        1. Astra wild 8 February 2020 07: 53 New
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          Or in Urengoy continuous downs. Or Urengoy educators work out someone else’s order.
          1. Cowbra 8 February 2020 08: 37 New
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            Coldly. But they did not give a hat to these. It froze
          2. Romka47 13 February 2020 13: 41 New
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            they are all not only specifically from Urengoy, but also from one school, there is some kind of Western program at the school (like the Soros Foundation) sponsoring something, sending children somewhere, it’s clear that if a student from this school says “I’m your Hitler stamped on the family album "they won’t send it anywhere and they won’t show it on TV, but there probably are such ones, only these milk shredders cause a resonance. but nevertheless there are already 2 of them (only those that were lit up) but as for me there is so much of one!
      2. The comment was deleted.
  3. Ravil_Asnafovich 8 February 2020 07: 44 New
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    Thank you very much to the author for the article, maybe a little off topic, just the other day, I put a liberal in the place where my uncle served in Germany after the victory, who told this liberal that as before the arrival of the Red Army, nobody stole bicycles from the Germans, and they didn’t know what the door locks were, well, the answer was in a very, very sharp form.
    1. Phil77 8 February 2020 09: 04 New
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      Good morning, your acquaintance liberal is wrong. What? 1981, autumn, early morning. A column of new recruits arriving from the Union is led to the outskirts of Frankfurt / which is on the Oder /, along the road are ordinary German houses and at each house, there are metal * braids * with bottles of milk, already in the city there are vertical racks for bicycles, and bicycles are completely free in them, without chains, locks. This is just a picture from life that I saw with my own eyes.
      1. Mordvin 3 8 February 2020 13: 44 New
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        Quote: Phil77
        This is just a picture from life, what I saw with my own eyes.

        The theme of the bicycle is most likely based on that famous photo, where our fighter allegedly robbed the Germans of lapsed. Dismantled here. Production, with a great deal of probability.

        And as for “Armenia”, in the 90s everyone was blamed on the NKVD officers, saying that if it were not for their archives that they exported, they would not have sunk. May be.
        1. Alf
          Alf 8 February 2020 16: 44 New
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          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          Production, with a great deal of probability.

          FULL version of the picture.

          Highlighted all the nonsense.
          1. Mordvin 3 8 February 2020 16: 57 New
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            Quote: Alf
            FULL version of the picture.

            Yes, I stuck a bad shot. Especially at number 19 I like. Yes, and kid 13 is posing well.
            1. Alf
              Alf 8 February 2020 17: 54 New
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              Quote: mordvin xnumx
              Quote: Alf
              FULL version of the picture.

              Yes, I stuck a bad shot. Especially at number 19 I like. Yes, and kid 13 is posing well.

              On 3 and 14 pay attention. Even then, the Americans exposed us as barbarians.
              1. Romka47 13 February 2020 13: 46 New
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                Yes, and according to the fighter himself, there are only our boots in fact, the cap is not 100% Soviet, the likeness of the greatcoat is also past, the tunic seems to be in doubt, but it’s obviously very strong, it seems that they dressed up in a hurry. Yes, and two other points: 1) if we are really barbarians, then this German woman needs to be given an iron cross, nothing resistance for the bike (200000000000000000000 then raped, as she’s not afraid) 2) he would like to take it away he would not drag it back and forth in the middle of the street , this is done to a little girlfriend, the more fierce barbarians in a foreign land. Rave
      2. pilot69 10 February 2020 18: 15 New
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        I confirm! 1989, that Frankfurt / which is on the Oder /, our company every morning for a run on the lake, loved the company! Near the shops there is milk in the drawers, large with strollers near the porches and cars along the roads as one is not closed. No one needs it for nothing. Also personal observations
  4. BISMARCK94 8 February 2020 08: 15 New
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    Marinesco

    Armenia

    As for me, after the declaration of total war, it makes no sense to follow the rules of ordinary warfare.
    And the article is excellent.
    1. Phil77 8 February 2020 09: 07 New
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      Hospital ships cannot be drowned, this is beyond humanity. This is atrocity!
      1. Nehist 8 February 2020 18: 25 New
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        So reinforcements and ammunition cannot be transported to hospital ships than ours did on return flights. So the non-compliance of the convention by both parties led to such results. Let's put in the Baltic in the beginning of the war, the Germans missed the hospital court until they began to go as part of the convoy. Well, after that there was a total war where everyone used everything. The fact that in peacetime the most serious crime is ordinary in the war, which does not mean anything
        1. Romka47 13 February 2020 15: 02 New
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          Che they were missing there, the first doctors with the wounded were shot in the Brest Fortress (I can’t provide the Proofs)
  5. Lamata 8 February 2020 08: 16 New
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    Land in peace, all perishing (((
  6. Constanty 8 February 2020 10: 22 New
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    The question should be asked whether “Armenia” is a hospital ship in the meaning of international law and relevant conventions - for example, here is the “Convention of October 18, 1907 on the Adaptation to the War of the Principles of the Geneva Convention and its Ratification”.

    Convention This convention requires at a minimum the provision of a list of hospital courts for general information of the warring parties, before taking any action, without military capabilities, and the hull should be painted white with a horizontal green or red stripe one and a half meters high.
    Moreover, the convention states that “during or after the battle they will act at their own risk”

    Meanwhile, here we read about some sanitarytransport courts, we read that the transition to a hospital ship included, among other things, painting ships
    (often in deforming disguise).
    !!!,

    I don’t know if the belligerents were officially declared that “Armenia” is a hospital ship, I don’t know whether the hull was painted white or not with a horizontal green or red stripe one and a half meters high, and whether there was any execution not related to the hospital transport functions in violation of this convention.

    Without solving these problems, it is difficult to say that it was a hospital ship under international law.

    In turn, if he was in camouflage and sailed under the escort of ships in a convoy, then his status could be completely different.

    Which does not change the fact that his death with so many injured was a huge tragedy
    1. Sergey S. 8 February 2020 11: 29 New
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      I don’t know if the belligerents were officially declared that “Armenia” is a hospital ship, I don’t know whether the hull was painted white or not with a horizontal green or red stripe one and a half meters high, and whether there was any execution not related to the hospital transport functions in violation of this convention.

      How do you imagine it?
      The ideology of fascism in relation to strangers is intimidation.
      Peasants were burnt in barns. urban in gas chambers, millions in concentration camps for destruction ...
      ... and the agreement with Hitler so that “Armenia” would not be touched ???
      There are no negotiations with the fascists, but a prerequisite is a complete victory over the fascists, their allies and minions.
      By the way, the Nazis themselves understood this, and therefore sought to destroy ALL Communists.

      "Armenia" - a tragedy - in the most sad conditions. There was no proper air cover. And it is near the shore, and here the ship’s convoy has limited ability to repel plaque.
      1. Constanty 8 February 2020 12: 16 New
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        ... and the agreement with Hitler so that “Armenia” would not be touched ???
        No negotiations with fascists


        Not an agreement with Hitler, no negotiations a act in accordance with international law. ADVERTISEMENT (in the press, through the diplomatic services of a neutral state) that "X", "Y", "Z" are hospital courts, hospital coloring, not part of the convoy and that’s all.

        Then the death of “Armenia” is undoubtedly a war crime. Otherwise great tragedybut not a war crime.
        1. Sergey S. 8 February 2020 12: 52 New
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          Quote: Constanty
          Then the death of “Armenia” is undoubtedly a war crime. Otherwise, a huge tragedy, but not a war crime.

          We won, therefore the death of “Armenia” is a war crime, A.I. Marinesco is a hero.
          If it were the other way around, it would be the other way around.
          This axiom should be known to power and youth. And fight at the last drop of blood, until victory!
          Otherwise, trouble.
          1. Constanty 8 February 2020 13: 22 New
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            Sorry, but this is not an understanding of the law and truth. The force of law, not the law of power, should be appropriate.

            Whoever wins, tragedy is tragedy, crime is crime.

            The sinking of Gustloff is a tragedy (because of refugees of women and children on board), and not a crime under the law, unfortunately, probably also Armenia. A.I. Marinesco is a hero - a defiant and not a happy hero.
            1. Phil77 8 February 2020 14: 26 New
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              No, I'm sorry, but I don’t agree with you. The attack of Marinesco took place at night, and he saw only a big goal in front of him. And the pilot / pilots of the Nazi Germany Air Force clearly saw who they were bombing / torpedoing.
              1. Constanty 8 February 2020 14: 59 New
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                Marinesco's actions are true without a doubt

                "Armenia"? - If the ship was armed in a column of warships, then formally it was not a hospital ship. Moreover, I doubt that it was painted correctly (and there are doubts, because the article itself says that sometimes these ships were covered with camouflage).

                if he was in camouflage, armed (and answered with anti-aircraft gun fire - which is not excluded), then the attack of German aircraft would be understandable. They attacked a military transporter unfortunately, also used to transport the wounded.

                Placing anti-aircraft guns on board a hospital vessel is a major mistake leading to mines. such tragedies.
                1. Phil77 8 February 2020 17: 31 New
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                  In this whole story there are too many * white spots *. Why did the captain violate the order and go to sea in the morning? Was the hospital ship marked? How many planes were there? And finally, where is the ship’s place of death?
                  1. Constanty 8 February 2020 17: 39 New
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                    probably the ship’s place of death was found in 1998:
                    wikimapia.org/17522305/en/Possibility- places- deaths- flooding- motor ship- Armenia ”

                    There are too many * white spots * in this whole story


                    However, the veil of secrecy surrounding the sunken “Armenia” is still not dispelled.
                    Historians have established that case No. 19, concerning this tragedy, was withdrawn from TsVMA and ... destroyed back in 1949. By whom, why - questions to which there is still no answer.
                    1. Phil77 8 February 2020 17: 42 New
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                      What was on board ?!
                      1. Constanty 8 February 2020 17: 50 New
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                        I don’t know, but the situation with the documents looks strange.
                    2. Marine engineer 8 February 2020 18: 12 New
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                      If this is true, then I understand why the “hero of the Soviet Union” October was despised by front-line Sevastopol
                      1. Sergey S. 11 February 2020 22: 12 New
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                        Quote: Marine engineer
                        If this is true, then I understand why the “hero of the Soviet Union” October was despised by front-line Sevastopol

                        This is not true.
                        There were separate hot heads ... on the 20th anniversary of Victory expressed ... For the fact that he announced the evacuation, and recalled the commanders from the front ...
                        But this is the truth of those who were captured by Germany. They had a right.
                        But they also recognized that the October Revolution was not able to change the situation for the better.

                        Although in the main, I agree Commissioner Mikhailov, who did not board the last plane. giving his place to a woman with a child, a true Hero.

                        Now about Oktyabrsky. He is naval. Reached the commander of the Black Sea Fleet. Were there among the naval cowards? I don’t remember such ... And Oktyabrsky from this environment. How they didn’t figure it out. did not stop ... Then the selection was tough ...
                        I am sure that October was not a coward.
                        But the psychological position of the person who got into tsuzwang, and any action will be accompanied by a worsening of the situation, gives understanding. why Oktyabrsky rushed about ... Being among the subordinates for whom he bears personal responsibility, already almost doomed - this is unbearable for any normal. And an attempt to fly away and organize help .... at least some way out of the situation.
                        ... I am not a supporter of such acts, but because of this October decision no one died.
                        The same is about “Armenia”.

                        As for war crimes.
                        Something we became good-natured.
                        Every German, Austrian, ... Hungarian ... who crossed the USSR border with weapons in his hands, MILITARY CRIMINAL.
                        They came with the war ... They had to answer for this.
                      2. Marine engineer 11 February 2020 23: 54 New
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                        And those who stayed on the stones of Chersonesos, who did not return from captivity, who returned from captivity but did not live to see the twentieth anniversary of the victory, who were not invited to conferences so that the “hero” would not be nervous with questions, who worked as a watchman for the port for 70 rubles (other work I couldn’t - wounds, shell shock, illnesses, couldn’t afford the train to Sevastopol for the conference you mention. Did they have the right?
                        Oh, dear colleague Sergey S., keep silent and agree that Oktyabrsky is not to blame, that means betraying them again. I can not.
                        I hope I didn’t “hurt” you.
                        Two days ago in the Internet Ineta came across the research of Boris Nikolsky "The Great Patriotic War on the Black Sea Part 1 Part 2
                        Recommend.
                      3. Sergey S. 12 February 2020 00: 51 New
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                        Quote: Marine engineer
                        And those who remained on the stones of Chersonesos ...

                        Reception prohibited ... We argue about the measure of responsibility of the October, and you appeal on behalf of the fallen Heroes ...
                        No need to mention them in vain ...
                        Quote: Marine engineer
                        Two days ago in the Internet Ineta came across the research of Boris Nikolsky "The Great Patriotic War on the Black Sea Part 1 Part 2
                        Recommend.

                        I read almost everything written about Sevastopol. Even complete poison to Soviet power.
                        The best book of Manoshin.
                        It honestly told almost everything.

                        I don’t understand what the purpose of exposing the leaders of the Black Sea Fleet is.
                        Previously, land accused specifically - "supposedly sailors cherished ships."
                        But the Black Sea Fleet ended before the war ended ...

                        And why not remember the generals who sent two armies near Leningrad to death, sent regiments and battalions on the same road to the Nevsky Piglets, specifically G.V. Zhukov, who sent the division to be slaughtered on the Blue Wall, or the entire leadership of the General Staff who failed to prevent the gigantic losses of those killed and captured under Vyazma, Rzhev, Kiev, Kharkov ...

                        The attacks on the fleet leaders can continue in the Baltic - the Tallinn crossing, the loss of submarines at the anti-submarine borders, the lost landings in Petrodvorets and Merekyula ...
                        Are these generals and admirals also cowards and bastards? Or they acted in accordance with the logic of the situation, in conditions of a lack of technology, experience, and the presence of only Soviet people ready for the feat.

                        There was a case near Sevastopol, incidentally completely uncharacteristic of Sevastopol, the arriving reinforcements were immediately thrown into a counterattack. Miners of Donbas went on the attack with sapper blades ... They completed the task, restored their positions ... Eternal glory to them.
                        But many may consider the order to attack inhuman.
                        And I would have thought so if I hadn’t known that every soldier was taken care of in Sevastopol, and, as a rule, the new arrivals were first kept in the rear and taught, taught, taught ...
                        And all this was led, including by Petrov and Oktyabrsky ...
              2. Marine engineer 23 February 2020 12: 02 New
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                [quote = Phil77] There are too many * white spots * in the whole story. Why did the captain break the order and go to sea in the morning?

                I believe that the captain did not violate anything, and went to sea as he had been ordered - in the morning. An indirect confirmation of this is the air cover in the form of two Chaika fighters. The pilots themselves could not fly in and accompany the transport, therefore everything was agreed, including the time of the departure of "Armenia" from Yalta.
            2. Nehist 8 February 2020 18: 31 New
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              From the point of view of the convention, even Armenia, painted according to all the rules of the Red Cross, belittles the convention itself A) Following the composition of the military convoy and B) The presence of armaments.
              1. sidoroff 8 February 2020 19: 21 New
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                in the last campaign "Armenia"
                Delivered to Sevastopol replenishment. what a "hospital ship" cannot do.
                1. Alex Krymov 31 March 2020 20: 06 New
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                  According to the “Situation Journal of OD”, according to the schedule and the transition plan of November 03.11.41, XNUMX, T / P ARMENIA was to go to Yalta in the ballast. And as of 05.11.41 18: 00 "Tuapse - Yalta." For the wounded, hand over to the commander so that he leaves Yalta no later than 3-4 hours ". Further to the military minesweeper escorting ARMENIA, to 22:30 have a record "TR" ARMENIA "out of order and lay on a course to Yalta" And in another magazine, V.Ya. Plaushevsky go to Yalta. But for some reason, the convoy commander suppresses his repeated attempts and sends him to Sevastopol. That is, ARMENIA, according to all available documents, leaves Tuapse on November 04.11.41, 06 two times. The first time is until 06:2 (it is taken into custody on an external roadstead), and due to the failure of the 7nd car at 43:15 it falls on the return course in Tuapse. The second time at 10:XNUMX. Route Tuapse-Yalta, for the wounded. And it falls into Sevastopol because of the known only to the commander of the EM accompanying ARMENIA. So, the call of ARMENIA to Yalta, already from Sevastopol, is a direct fulfillment of V.Ya. Plaushevsky primary order.
      2. Sergey S. 9 February 2020 00: 25 New
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        Got the cons ...
        This is seemingly normal. There are different positions, knowledge, beliefs. even prejudice.
        But in this case, I would like to understand why.

        Is this for stating a 100 percent historical result, that the winner is writing history?
        Quote: Sergey S.
        We won, therefore the death of “Armenia” is a war crime, A.I. Marinesco is a hero.
        If it were the other way around, it would be the other way around.


        Or against the historical literacy of the authorities and youth?
        Quote: Sergey S.

        This axiom should be known to power and youth.


        And it’s very wild to think that someone does not agree to fight the enemy ...
        Quote: Sergey S.
        And fight at the last drop of blood, until victory!
        Otherwise, trouble.


        Maybe put the cons, explain their position?
        1. Phil77 9 February 2020 14: 54 New
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          Quote: Sergey S.
          Maybe put the cons, explain their position?

          And don’t hope. There are some anonymous minus signers, before he himself asked to clarify the position. And now ... well, them, funny ones! hi
      3. Dmitry V. 10 February 2020 15: 29 New
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        Quote: Sergey S.
        Quote: Constanty
        Then the death of “Armenia” is undoubtedly a war crime. Otherwise, a huge tragedy, but not a war crime.

        We won, therefore the death of “Armenia” is a war crime, A.I. Marinesco is a hero.
        If it were the other way around, it would be the other way around.
        This axiom should be known to power and youth. And fight at the last drop of blood, until victory!
        Otherwise, trouble.


        The trouble is that many have an electoral rating system: their spy, our scout, their transport as part of a convoy, our hospital ship as part of a convoy, they are criminals, Marinesco is a hero ...

        For me, these are all the tragedies of war.
  • Avior 8 February 2020 11: 45 New
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    That tragedy is certain.
    But from the actual side ....
    Armenia had a hospital color, but came with a convoy and had weapons, therefore, according to international conventions, it could not be considered a hospital vessel under the protection of the convention.
    In fact, hospital ships were used, among other things, as military transports, and they transported not only the wounded in the requirements of the convention - otherwise it was simply impossible, we did not have many transports, and the volume of shipments by sea was large - and had weapons.
    Armenia was not the only such case.
    Here, for example, how the battle of the hospital ship Moldova near the Tendra Spit in September 1941 against the Germans is described
    transport anchored at some distance from the coast. The day was cloudy, windy and the sea was lightly stormy. The wounded began to be transported from the shore in boats. At this time, several German dive bombers flew out from behind the clouds. "Moldova" fought them off with a single anti-aircraft gun and one machine gun. Dozens of bombs exploded in the sea near the ship, but from the last plane the bomb landed directly in the ship. A fire broke out, water poured into the hole and, banked, the ship ran aground.

    Therefore, on the formal side, there was no violation of the convention. But the tragedy is huge, of course ....
    1. Astra wild 9 February 2020 17: 20 New
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      Avior, and if there were no weapons in Moldova, what did the Junkers waved their wings and wished for a speedy recovery?
      1. Avior 9 February 2020 18: 24 New
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        Honestly, I don’t know
        The matter is not only in weapons, for the status of a hospital ship, a whole set of requirements is needed, including declaring the ship hospital, not violating the purpose, providing assistance to all parties and others
        I doubt that there were conditions to drive the ships one way empty, so they loaded, although they violated the convention
        You can, of course, write that you can expect anything from the Nazis, and this is true, but you can certainly say by considering specific cases
        The case of Armenia or Moldova is clearly not within the framework of the convention.
  • Lamata 8 February 2020 12: 59 New
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    and even hospital courts are prohibited from having weapons on board. And then there are 45 anti-aircraft heels. During the RJV, japas found fault with our hospital courts, saying that the set was a handgun (I say, I don’t remember exactly)
  • mr.ZinGer 8 February 2020 12: 19 New
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    Humanity by law, by convention
    Not used in this intervention.
    Neither this, nor even this side,
    She was not for a big war
    .
    Boris Slutsky
  • Operator 8 February 2020 13: 23 New
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    “Armenia” was not a sanitary vessel, as it was armed with 45-mm cannons and followed in the convoy of several watchdogs.

    In this regard, all the blame for the sinking of "Armenia" lies with the command of the Black Sea Fleet, which sent military vehicles in the daytime to the slaughter of German coastal aviation.
    1. Phil77 8 February 2020 14: 17 New
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      Well, I don’t know! Maybe this will sound cynical, but I’ll assume that the death of * Armenia * lies entirely with the pilot / pilots * Heinkel * / 8 * Junkers *. Well, he / they saw hospital crosses on board the vessel! We saw! And still bombed / otorpedali on it!
      1. karabass 16 February 2020 11: 06 New
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        Come on you in war as in war! During the counter-terrorist operation in Chechnya, our aircraft carried the Chechen hospitals with might and main - only feathers flew! And rightly did the war in white gloves do not lead. If the captain were alive, one could ask about the exit in the morning, why, whose order?
        89% sure that the cause of the tragedy is a criminal order of our command!
        A military pilot and MUST bomb
    2. Sergey S. 8 February 2020 15: 07 New
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      Quote: Operator
      all the blame for the sinking of "Armenia" lies with the command of the Black Sea Fleet, which sent military vehicles in the daytime to the slaughter of German coastal aviation

      All the killed soldiers and sailors on the conscience of the commanders who sent them into battle, without having previously killed all the enemies ...
      Then in November, all that could walk was at sea.
      Around the same time, they saved Sevastopol — the Primorsky Army delivered destroyers to Sevastopol ... Some of the ships provided fire support to the defense. Sevastopol was evacuated, as the situation allowed ...

      7 November
      On this day, the 3rd and 4th battalions of the 7th brigade were withdrawn from combat positions on the upper and lower roads from Alushta to Yalta and transferred to the Yalta port. At 3.00 in Yalta, the loading of troops of the 7th Marine Brigade (3rd and 4th Battalions) onto the destroyers Boyky and Impeccable was completed. The ships took on board about 1800 people, part of the military equipment and at 3 hours and 40 minutes. left Yalta. At dawn, they moored in Sevastopol. The general management of the loading of the brigade and at the crossing was carried out by the military commissar of the brigade, senior battalion commissar N.E. Ehlakov
      https://iknigi.net/avtor-aleksandr-nemenko/142089-pervyy-shturm-sevastopolya-noyabr-41-go-aleksandr-nemenko/read/page-12.html


      Calling to Yalta was a mistake. But if “Armenia” reached the Caucasus, we would be proud now - DO NOT THROW OURS!
      In a word: Himself perish, and help out comrades!
      This time they died. ETERNAL MEMORY OF HEROES!
      1. Phil77 9 February 2020 20: 49 New
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        Quote: Sergey S.
        Then in November, all that could walk was at sea.

        That's right! Everything must be judged from the point of view of the situation at that time and the capabilities of the Soviet command.
    3. Pastukhov Igor Borisovich 8 February 2020 15: 13 New
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      Responsibility for the death of “Armenia” lies entirely with the Black Sea Fleet command.
  • Catfish 8 February 2020 14: 58 New
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    Of course, the ambulance ship had identification marks that uniquely alert the enemy about the condition of passengers. But also on board was a pair of 45-mm anti-aircraft guns, guards from patrol ships and, according to some reports, even a couple of fighters covered “Armenia”.

    “Armenia” ceased to be a medical ship at the very moment that these worthless “forty-fives” were installed on it, and it was not the Germans who were to blame, but the one who thought of doing this. I'm not talking about the cover of warships and aircraft. And what is the exit at dawn in the daytime, and even close to the coastline. What happened is a tragedy, but the responsibility for it lies equally with ours and the Germans.
    1. Constanty 8 February 2020 15: 48 New
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      I have not seen a single photograph of "Armenia" with the signs of a medical ship. Interestingly, even in the paintings of the sinking “Armenia”, the author (Andrei Lubyanov) did not post such
    2. Nehist 8 February 2020 18: 36 New
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      I will tell you more !!! The use of sanitary vessels as military vehicles after unloading the wounded for delivery of reinforcements and ammunition (that is how they were used) automatically excludes them from the sub-convention
  • Pastukhov Igor Borisovich 8 February 2020 15: 29 New
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    Quote: Sergey S.
    Calling to Yalta was a mistake. But if “Armenia” reached the Caucasus, we would be proud now - DO NOT THROW OURS!
    In a word: Himself perish, and help out comrades!
    This time they died. ETERNAL MEMORY OF HEROES!
    The mistake was to take away (drape) the property and staff of hospitals leaving the defenders of Sevastopol without medical assistance to the deep rear.
  • Undecim 8 February 2020 16: 25 New
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    In the 2000s, Ukrainians attempted to find “Armenia” on the seabed, allocated $ 2 million and attracted Robert Ballard, director of the Massachusetts Institute of Oceanography, for this.
    There were three attempts. The first - in 2005, using the “Langoust” bathyscaphe at a depth of 150-300 meters. The maximum immersion depth of the bathyscaphe is 500 meters.
    The second - in 2006. The search was carried out by Robert Ballard using his ship Endever, which made it possible to search at a depth of up to 1200 meters. We found 40 ancient Greek ships and almost two hundred ships and submarines of the Great Patriotic War period, including the destroyer Dzerzhinsky. They also found the battleship Sinop.
    The third expedition was in 2008. Drawn American oceanographers and the ship "Passfinder".
    But “Armenia” was never found.
  • BAI
    BAI 8 February 2020 17: 07 New
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    Of course, the most important mistake of the command was a rash order to go to sea in the morning, when earlier on the Black Sea there were precedents for the barbaric attitude of Germans to ambulance transport

    It's not a mistake. It is a crime to send such vehicles without reliable cover. Oktyabrsky, in my opinion, commanded the fleet disgustingly.
    1. Nehist 8 February 2020 18: 39 New
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      This look is not only with you. Oktyabrsky pulled away from command, simply put inactive
    2. Marine engineer 8 February 2020 18: 40 New
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      November night was a reliable cover for “Armenia”; to understand this “academy”, it was not necessary to finish, but “cap wasn’t according to Senka” was for the command of the Black Sea fleet. Instead of going to the Caucasus after Balaclava, they sent transport to Yalta (in taxi mode), although it was possible to take the party asset with families by road to Sevastopol, the road was clear. But to "think" is about the Black Sea Fleet commander.
      1. Alex Krymov 31 March 2020 19: 30 New
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        From the report of the head of the air defense of the Black Sea Fleet
        "... Over time, the number of aircraft flying for the exploration of maritime communications (even appeared in Batumi) It should be noted that countering the reconnaissance fighters of our anti-aircraft artillery and fighter cover type I-153, I-15bis was extremely ineffective ... The bombardment and torpedoing of transports and warships was carried out in all cases of the passage of ships. Conducting intensive reconnaissance, often already with bombs, the Yu-88, XE-111 aircraft almost continuously illuminated our communications and therefore it was very difficult to pass unnoticed caravans. Only fog and obviously non-flying weather made this possible. Scouts, finding ships, called bombers or torpedo bombers. "
  • sidoroff 8 February 2020 17: 47 New
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    except for Gustloff, a submarine
    C13 under the command of Marinesco
    sank the hospital ship "General Steuben", which
    transporting the wounded and refugees.
    the death toll is about 3600.
    but on the "Steuben" he was also armed with anti-aircraft guns and marched with the convoy. and no one presented Marinesco
    claim. except for his own command, which Marinesco
    reported that the cruiser Emden was sunk.
  • Marine engineer 8 February 2020 17: 55 New
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    Of all the articles that I had to read about the death of "Armenia" including this, only two facts are reliably known, the ship was attacked on November 7, 1941 by German aircraft, almost everyone who was on board the transport died. And then questions begin for which for 79 years no answers have been found. Where did "Armenia" die? at what distance from the coast? how (on what) did the survivors get to the shore? their name, age, condition (wounded or not), testimony or evidence recorded immediately or after years? what kind of ships were guarded (numbers), name, title, ship commanders, what did they write about the death of “Armenia” during the proceedings of their actions to protect vehicles?
  • Marine engineer 8 February 2020 18: 04 New
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    Quote: Constanty
    However, the veil of secrecy surrounding the sunken “Armenia” is still not dispelled.
    Historians have established that the case number 19, concerning this tragedy, was withdrawn from TsVMA and ... destroyed in 1949. By whom, why - questions to which there is still no answer
  • Alexander Greene 8 February 2020 19: 31 New
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    The Germans immediately noted that they did not comply with the Convention, they bombed ambulances, steamboats, trains on land and at sea. Therefore, after the Kotovsky ambulance was attacked and damaged in July 1941, it fell under heavy bombing and the cargo-passenger ship Adzharia was destroyed, and in August the Kuban steamer was sunk, anti-aircraft guns were installed on Armenia.
    1. Marine engineer 8 February 2020 20: 34 New
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      If you (the fleet commander) make decisions, then you automatically take responsibility for the decision. In this case, the naval authorities would need to think about how vehicles with a speed of 14 knots (and when overloaded are much less) armed with anti-aircraft guns with a limited rate of fire and in a limited number are going to oppose enemy aircraft. But as it was already written above, “thinking” is not about the leadership of the 1941 Black Sea Fleet.
    2. Nehist 8 February 2020 20: 40 New
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      But these "hospital ships wouldn’t bring reinforcements and ammunition on return flights, it’s not a fact that they would be bombed. The reconnaissance of the Germans worked well and the ship carried the wounded one way and transport soldiers and ammunition on the way back in the eyes of any commander from a hospital ship turns into military transport
      1. Alexander Greene 8 February 2020 21: 01 New
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        Quote: Nehist
        But if these "hospital ships didn’t carry reinforcements and ammunition on return flights, it’s not a fact that they would be bombed.

        Do not entertain yourself with illusions. Field hospitals. sabbaths with red crosses bombarded a sweet soul. and they didn’t carry ammunition.
        1. Nehist 8 February 2020 21: 57 New
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          And you look at all this not from the point of view of humanity, but from the point of view of military necessity. Yes, yes, I know that sounds valuable. The war has only one rule, no rules
          1. Alexander Greene 9 February 2020 01: 06 New
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            Quote: Nehist
            The war has only one rule, no rules

            That's what I'm talking about. War is war, especially since Germany waged war against the USSR to destroy the Soviet people. Therefore, the military leadership of the USSR, realizing this at the very beginning of the war, began to arm all transports, including hospital ships, with anti-aircraft guns.
          2. Phil77 9 February 2020 20: 57 New
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            And the case with * Laconia * is not an example for you? Hartenstein, in violation of all the rules, began to help people from the torpedoed vessel. Much depends on the person in this or that situation. You can bomb / torpedo / defenseless the ship and shoot from surviving machine guns, but it’s possible to act like Hartenstein.
      2. Sergey S. 9 February 2020 13: 34 New
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        Quote: Nehist
        But these "hospital ships wouldn’t bring reinforcements and ammunition on return flights, it’s not a fact that they would be bombed. The reconnaissance of the Germans worked well and the ship carried the wounded one way and transport soldiers and ammunition on the way back in the eyes of any commander from a hospital ship turns into military transport

        Well, you can’t do that!
        For the Germans, intelligence worked well ... Yes, if so, then they would have sunk all our ships and ships in the Black Sea.
        Air superiority was complete. The assault corps trained and trained in the Mediterranean ...
        They didn’t even fly in squadrons, but continuously in turn ...
        You would be in place of October. Judging by the comments, not a single ship would be released into the sea. For even on warships, anti-aircraft weapons were clearly not enough.
        A speed of 14 knots is not a slow-moving thing. Atlantic convoys in general sometimes went 8 knots.
        14 knots is the normal speed for a squadron.
        For example, BTSC (high-speed minesweepers) had a full speed of 18 knots,

        "Armenia" for pilots was ambulance. - Above the deck there was an awning with a huge red cross.
        But this is a sign for German nonhumans that you can attack light-heartedly and irresponsibly.

        Forced to repeat, then. what is already on the site:
        If you are a fascist with a gun
        You do not want to give up forever
        The house where you lived, your wife and mother,
        All that we call home, -
        Know: no one will save her,
        If you do not save her;
        Know: no one will kill him,
        If you do not kill him.
        And while he did not kill him,
        You keep silent about your love,
        The land where you grew up, and the house where you lived,
        Do not call your homeland.

        In such circumstances, there was a war ...
        The Germans deliberately and unmistakably entered Armenia.
        Now the tears are squeezed under pressure ...

        In general, our conversation is not about “Armenia”.
        Getting ready for the hot phase of the third world.
        And when the threatening situation comes, what will it be like for the President to press the button on the launch of missiles ...
        Indeed, in this volley many "innocent" can die.
        We should not have such discussions.
        The enemy must know that he will be destroyed.
        And even the threat of death will not stop us in righteous anger.
        1. Nehist 9 February 2020 22: 18 New
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          Especially your statement about the complete superiority of the Luftwaffe added ... Go learn a story, look at the documents, especially since there is a lot of free access to the period.
  • Corrie sanders 8 February 2020 21: 22 New
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    he took revenge



    monument to Alexander Ivanovich in Odessa
  • ABM
    ABM 8 February 2020 23: 01 New
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    Unfortunately, there was no "war crime"!
    transport, hiding behind a red cross:

    - transported military personnel;
    - transported employees of the NKVD;
    - was armed with 4 45-mm semi-automatic 21K;
    - went as part of a convoy, guarding two patrol boats;
    - covered up from the air with 2 I-153 fighters.

    any, even one of the above violations, allowed to sink the ship. Let's move away from double standards - "William Gustlof" drowned correctly, because there were military personnel on it, and here is a “war crime”. If anyone committed it, then the evacuated troops loaded on board the ship
    1. Stas57 10 February 2020 18: 34 New
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      Quite right, Quite a legitimate goal like Gustlov
  • Marine engineer 9 February 2020 00: 29 New
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    I re-read the article and comments and realized what was annoying in them. The author tells us the story of the death of “Armenia” as the story of a war crime of the enemy, and yielding to emotions, most commentators share this point of view. For this and reckoning, for our anger towards a cruel and prudent enemy, all these years from the moment of the death of transport to the present day, the real culprit (s) of the death of thousands of Soviet people who could survive, raise children, enjoy their grandchildren took refuge. This article, as well as a dozen similar ones devoted to the death of “Armenia”, does not answer the questions of why this happened, because it was never the purpose of such articles. They must evoke emotions, hatred of the enemy, and for this 79-year period the real culprits of this tragedy have been hiding behind this "smoke screen". German pilots November 7, 1941 put an end to this tragedy but it was planned by completely different people. People who lived their age surrounded by their children and grandchildren were hung with orders and stars that they do not deserve, who until the end of their days told the pioneers how they bravely defended Sevastopol. I propose not to succumb to emotions and fair anger towards the enemy, but to think about the cowardice, incompetence, spinelessness of the Black Sea Fleet commander who condemned the death of thousands of people on November 7, 1941.
    1. Sergey S. 9 February 2020 14: 24 New
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      Quote: Marine engineer
      I propose not to succumb to emotions and fair anger towards the enemy, but to think about that cowardice, incompetence, spinelessness of the Black Sea Fleet commander who doomed thousands of people to die on November 7, 1941.

      Get fucked !!!
      I would suggest criminalizing such posts.
      Have cannibals led our homeland? Are you trying to promote it? In the best case for you, you are a German. A descendant of those who were regretted in 1945, and then your feelings are clear. But just like you do everything so that in the future the pity of the ball is neutralized by hatred.

      And my grandfather and great-grandfather from starvation in Leningrad died. What, instead of the cannibal Germans, should I swear on those. who had not taken them out before the war, who had not prepared bread in advance .... Do not wait.

      The Germans have to meet sometimes.
      Everything is fine, friendly.
      But every time I see a German, I remember mine who died in Leningrad.
      1. Marine engineer 9 February 2020 22: 00 New
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        I am Russian. My grandfather, a communist, a machine gunner, 2 battalion of the 4th marine brigade went missing on November 23, 1941 during the fighting in the Nevsky Piglet area (in the vicinity of the Garazh village) opposite the modern Ladoga plant) if you really are who you impersonate, you should know this place. Working with archival documents, the World Military Administration (Gatchina) restored the last days and hours of his grandfather’s life, he learned a lot of “interesting things”. When he told his father how his father was dying with his comrades (over 900 Red Navy men) on Nevsky ice, he cried.
        1. Sergey S. 10 February 2020 02: 36 New
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          Quote: Marine engineer
          I am Russian. My grandfather, a communist, a machine gunner, 2 battalion of the 4th marine brigade went missing on November 23, 1941 during the fighting in the Nevsky Piglet area (in the vicinity of the Garazh village) opposite the modern Ladoga plant) if you really are who you impersonate, you should know this place. Working with archival documents, the World Military Administration (Gatchina) restored the last days and hours of his grandfather’s life, he learned a lot of “interesting things”. When he told his father how his father was dying with his comrades (over 900 Red Navy men) on Nevsky ice, he cried.

          Condolences ...
          My father in law was lucky.
          When crossing the Nevsky Piglet, when entering the ice it was covered - a wound in the leg, a severe contusion. disability, non-working group.

          And only my maternal grandfather survived from my direct relatives, his most difficult soldier war - Finnish. In the Great Patriotic War he already served as a supplier. in the autobaht.

          My father-in-law was at the place of his platoon in the 1970s.
          He did not talk about the war.
          He only said that in the hospital the young were yelling ... the old people suffered ...

          This does not give us the right to blame indiscriminately.
          Although, in part, I agree with you. It was so hard in the war. that many could not stand it for a long time.

          It makes no sense to discuss the decision of Stalin, who entrusted the leadership of the land defense with the naval forces. But what does a naval man do when he is forced to answer off-profile ...

          The North Caucasian direction did not appear in Sevastopol at all.
          There was an order for evacuation.
          There was nothing to fulfill it ...
          By the way, by this order the headquarters of the Black Sea Fleet was transferred to the Caucasus.
          But to the adm. Eliseev no complaints. It was for the reasons stated above that he did everything possible, and the possibilities were meager.
          Whatever the reason, there was almost nothing left of the Black Sea Fleet by the end of the hostilities on the Black Sea. Sevastopol, Kerch, Novorossiysk - caused very large losses ...

          By the way, at one time Stalin entrusted the BSF adm. Vladimirsky, it’s better. And again, October became the commander.

          At the beginning of the war there was such a difficult situation that what commands do not give, the losses were very large.
      2. Marine engineer 10 February 2020 01: 57 New
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        Emotions again. I will try again. In 1941, the commander of the Black Sea Fleet was S.F. Oktyabrsky is a man who possessed peculiar “talents” not in any way fit into the image of a Red Navy sailor as they are usually portrayed in Soviet cinema. An intriguer, careerist, careful (to make a decision on his own, not only collegially) is vindictive, vindictive, not educated (from political instructors), writing a denunciation or defaming a person is not a problem, courage and courage showed when he needed to defend his powers or expand them, but while that would be the responsibility of the deputies.
        Well, now about what preceded the tragedy.
        On October 30, 1941, advanced German units reached the front lines of defense (the construction of which was not completed) of the Sevastopol base. There are no troops to fill the lines (the Primorye Army is not yet retreating from the Ishun positions) there are not enough heavy weapons to equip the strongholds at the defense lines (everything was previously sent to the dig and Ishun where it was rough) to think about earlier when the fleet depots were empty than we would to meet the enemy if the Ishun positions are breached is not an uplifting task for the former political instructor. The deputy of Oktyabrsky, Zhukov, from where possible from the coastal units, schools, junior schools, cadets, and throws them into battle for many, the first and last so that at unprepared lines for a day or two to delay the enemy until the approach of the Primorye Army.
        And what is busy with the navy naval commander at this time? He inspects the ports of the Caucasus for the location of fleet property that is to be evacuated from the Sevastopol Naval Base, that is, performs the duties of one of his deputies, and for a simple supply manager. The cry of the people's commissar Kuznetsov brings our cunning to life and he rushes to the Sevastopol destroyer where he stays on the night of November 1 to 2. On November 2, the headquarters convoy of the Primorsky Army enters Sevastopol along with General Petrov. Admiral Levchenko gathers a military council to which Oktyabrsky is not invited, they tell him that he would deal with the problems of evacuating naval property (do junk stuff for a flea market). Understanding that such a long and carefully built career can go to waste Sergey Filippovich, we must pay tribute to him, develop vigorous evacuation activities, need to show up, in the end, he has an iron position and he saves the fleet and the fleet’s property, then the main thing is to report to the top in a profitable for himself, and he knew how to report, if it concerned his well-being, he was going to violate his subordination, he reported through his head’s head.
        Well, then the story is known, loading the naval hospitals on “Armenia” with all the property tables, chairs, beds, racks for droppers, tubes and other, other, other ..... Then a stop at the Balaklava raid to pick up the NKVD documents (because if they can’t be taken out by paper. The war will be lost, after all) and the morning loading in Yalta and death.
        All these throwings of "Armenia" between Sevastopol and Yalta without the approval (permission) of the person responsible for the evacuation would not have been possible.
        And finally, in 1948 S.F. Oktyabrsky becomes deputy commander in chief of the Navy. Information was posted above that in 1949, case No. 19 concerning the death of “Armenia” was destroyed by the TsVMA. If this is true, then Oktyabrsky had plenty of opportunities in his new position.
        1. Alex_59 10 February 2020 08: 39 New
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          Quote: Marine engineer
          In 1941, the commander of the Black Sea Fleet was S.F. Oktyabrsky is a man who possessed peculiar “talents” not in any way fit into the image of a Red Navy sailor as they are usually portrayed in Soviet cinema. An intriguer, a careerist, careful (to make a decision on his own, not only collegially) is vindictive, vindictive, not educated (from political instructors), writing a denunciation or defaming a person is not a problem, courage and courage showed when he needed to defend his powers or expand them, but while that would be the responsibility of the deputies.

          I confirm. My grandfather, chief of intelligence of the 9th IAP, 11th Shad of the Black Sea Fleet, according to my father, when mentioning the name of Oktyabrsky, began to shake with anger, although he was an extremely balanced and calm person (they didn’t take others to aviation).
        2. Alex Krymov 31 March 2020 18: 29 New
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          Nobody destroyed any documents !!!! There is only one archival matter that still has the signature stamp “Own Secret.” “Correspondence with the Chief Prosecutor's Office of the Navy ...“ Where, out of 422 sheets, only 11 belong to T / R ARMENIA. ”That is, the matter is classified in general. The rest can be found out, If you wish, of course, besides one more thing - the Criminal Case located in the Central Archive of the FSB.
      3. talib 10 February 2020 02: 50 New
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        I somehow thought, how many times in the last century have the Germans come with WAR to my house, to my land.
        1st in 1914. My great-grandfather Nicephorus did not return from the WAR of the Imperialist. The Austrian bullet in Galicia got it. Another great-grandfather, Andrei Romanovich, returned with gases etched in Brest. And soldier George was a little comfort to him.
        2nd in the Civil War. Treading the Ukrainian land German boot. Skoropadsky and others. The yellow-black trash served the Germans. Germans came to rob and kill the interventionists.
        3rd WAR Patriotic .... When the survival of my Fatherland and all, all, all, was endangered. Fought off and drove to the west! The price paid is terrible. Maternal grandfather - Makar Dmitrievich, died near Kharkov in the 41st. His siblings laid their heads in the 44th Mikhail near Tiraspol and in the 45th Ivan 10 days before the Victory. Paternal grandfather - Dmitry Andreevich began with the 41st near Odessa and reached Prague ...
        4th Cold War. To the Germans, the most "honorable" role was assigned to it. It’s from their land that Pershing was supposed to fly to me. It was they who organized the partition of Germany and revolted in 1953. And only Grandfather who returned from the battlefields. I had to wear an officer belt again. My country was supposed to build tanks, not passenger cars. Military airfields, and not roads to remote villages, etc. Just because the Germans wanted revenge and they did not want to live quietly peacefully like the Finns with the Swedes.
        The 5th today's civil war in Ukraine. America is strong. But she is far away. And if the current Germans were just decent people, they would not have supported the heirs of those who licked their boots.
        And so, they decided to cheat on Russia by supporting the under-Nazis in Ukraine.
        And now ... Today I read someone's reasoning about the innocence of the Germans ?! About some kind of “rules” that we did not observe correctly enough ?! And this nonsense is written not by one person and not two. This is already an “opinion”! And THIS on VO, which is a kind of "patriotic" site. Kind people ! Are you out of your mind? Who broke into someone's house? Who came to whom to kill ??? Those who are trying to talk about the "guilt" of OUR admiral and the NKVDeshnikov and the "executor of duty" fascist pilot.
        Who are you anyway?
        Who are you for?
        What is your reasoning and cleverness about guns and two escort vessels better than the shame of "Koli Urengoysky" ....
    2. Astra wild 9 February 2020 17: 00 New
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      Colleague, marine engineer. Can you justify your accusations and who exactly is to blame?
      1. Marine engineer 9 February 2020 21: 18 New
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        Admiral S.F. is to blame October
      2. Marine engineer 10 February 2020 12: 32 New
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        F. S. Oktyabrsky (Ivanov)
        1. Astra wild 10 February 2020 13: 39 New
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          Yes, an unattractive image is obtained.
  • Astra wild 9 February 2020 16: 55 New
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    Quote: Phil77
    * Athenia * - passenger airliner, sunk by U-30,3 September 1939, XNUMX a few hours after the appearance of the war * government of the UK Germany. This ship was the first victim of German submariners of this war.

    thanks for the info
  • Petrol cutter 9 February 2020 17: 16 New
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    Warp masking is what I thought of, or ...
    I read not so long ago for this ship. There is a whole dark matter. What, yes how, yes why. And why did it happen ...
  • vaay 9 February 2020 20: 59 New
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    In Odessa, at the NWP was Captain Plaushevsky, I worked for a long time as a radio operator in a full-time crew on it. On it, however, I got an idea at the beginning. r-stn. At the end of 80, the captain's widow was still alive. The crew patronized, helped on trifles. There was a good crew, friendly. I still remember the guys warmly. By the way, from bookmark to delivery 5 months 10 days. Built in Kherson. Soundly done. It went on it ..! :) Two full circumnavigations, well and the rest on trifles.
  • Marine engineer 10 February 2020 14: 13 New
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    The decision of Stalin, who entrusted the leadership of the land defense with the naval forces, was not discussed because the topic of the article is completely different. There will be an article on defense on the site
    Sevastopol then talk. “What should a naval man do ...” - go about his own business, by the way, Kuznetsov suggested that F. S. Oktyabrsky give up leadership of the SoR on the eve of the third assault, transferring command to General Petrov, but he refused (it turned out that “steering” wasn’t according to “profile” when special threats are not visible very much nothing). Two weeks later, the situation changed and Admiral Drapanul.

    At the expense of ship losses, in war they are inevitable but you can try them with the help of office equipment. activities to reduce. By 1941, it became clear to all those studying and analyzing the struggle at sea that aviation was the main threat to ships, to combat it, it was necessary to install additional high-speed anti-aircraft artillery on ships. But the warship is not rubber, to accommodate something you need, you need to dismantle something unnecessary. At the SF, Admiral Golovko ordered to dismantle torpedo weapons on destroyers and use the released volumes for additional anti-aircraft installations and ammunition for them (this is a man). But the Black Sea Fleet did not dare to do so, and the Black Sea destroyers (those that did not die) dragged useless torpedo weapons dreaming of torpedo attacks on Italian battleships throughout the war.
  • Stas57 10 February 2020 18: 33 New
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    The death of the ship "Armenia". Black Sea War Crime
    No, like Gustlov this is not a war crime
  • Marine engineer 10 February 2020 22: 08 New
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    https://www.proza.ru/2014/02/15/1907
    The Great Patriotic War on the Black Sea part 1
    Read there is a chapter dedicated to the death of "Armenia".
  • ABM
    ABM 21 February 2020 13: 00 New
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    Quote: Phil77
    In this whole story there are too many * white spots *. Why did the captain violate the order and go to sea in the morning? Was the hospital ship marked? How many planes were there? And finally, where is the ship’s place of death?


    one torpedo bomber Heinkel from the shore, both covering I-153 were at a height for protection from diving, boats - ahead of course
  • Alex Krymov 31 March 2020 18: 19 New
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    If anyone is interested, I will give excerpts from archival documents.
    To start.
    1. T / R ARMENIA was not a hospital ship! It was an armed transport vessel that took an active part in the evacuation of warheads, weapons, ammunition, l / s, including wounded from Odessa, Sevastopol. And also in the supply of replenishment of military and military equipment to Sevastopol from the Caucasus.
    “Two 156-K type guns are installed on the boat deck in the area of ​​the 157-21 frame, flush mounted at a distance of 1.150 mm from the side. One gun is mounted on the drum on the lower bridge deck in the area of ​​124-125 frames in the diametrical plane. Reinforcements for“ Armenia ” are carried out according to drawing No. 3. The artillery shells are designed for 1.420 shells ... "
    Although, according to the order No. 00162 of 08.08.41, it is mobilized "as ambulance transports and to maintain state No. 25 / 41-" A ". The deployment is Odessa."
    2. T / R ARMENIA leaving Sevastopol / GB on November 6 at 20:10 arrived in Yalta on 07.11.41/2/15 at 07.11.41:10. According to weather reports, V / W T / R TEDDIES, on 22/XNUMX/XNUMX XNUMX:XNUMX "We left the main base. The weather is very strong wind 6-7 points, the excitement of 6 points". You will try in such weather, on an external roadstead, in the dark, with the provision of blackout, approach the side of a large vessel and ensure the transition from a small means of people. You won’t have time to croak! In addition, all these maneuvers take time. Which, according to the time of departure, arrival, taking into account the weather and load, ARMENIA did not have.
    3. Vladimir Yakovlevich Plaushevsky - captain of T / R ARMENIA, violated or made a rash decision about the time to leave Yalta. "The transport" Armenia "arrived in Yalta at 02:40, the captain reported that he had an order if the weather would be bad during the day ..." From the report of the senior authorized representative of the 2nd division of the 3rd division of the Black Sea Fleet "November 7, 1941 at 05 a.m. - 30 a.m. from Yalta ... a report was received ...: The enemy occupied the village of Kiziltash (Gurzuf district) is moving to Yalta". Further in the magazine of the Black Sea Fleet "... the enemy fired at Yalta with machine guns from the city of Chauffeur, who drove the wounded in cars and fled ... At this time, an order was received from OD Black Sea Fleet to leave Yalta". From the military log of the units of the Wehrmacht on 07.11.41/11/10 22:4 part 5 of the infantry division occupy the village of Nikita (this is XNUMX km from the port).
    Plaushevsky Vladimir Yakovlevich was posthumously awarded the Order of the RED Banner - for "... exemplary performance of the combat missions of the Command at the front of the struggle against the German invaders and the valor and courage shown at the same time"[/ i] (order on the Black Sea Fleet dated May 07, 1942 No. 28c). "
    4. From YALTA to TUAPS T / R ARMENIA escorted one SKA and later joined two (in another case 3) I-153 (ultimately made the pilots extreme). The SKA commander (in fact, these are pre-war Sea hunters, wooden 26 meter boats with a deck height from the waterline of 1,26 m, with two 45 mm 21-K guns and machine guns) reports upon arrival at BALAKLAVA 07.11.41 17:30 “m / v ARMENIA left Yalta at 08:00, the course was like that. At a distance of so many miles from Yalta at 11:25 one enemy torpedo bomber flew from the starboard side. Boat 0122 opened fire, the torpedo bomber came on the port side and fired two torpedoes at 11:25 am. One torpedo hit the bow of the m / v ARMENIA. The ship quickly sank in the water with its nose. It sank at 11:29. When the boats sank from the ship, 6 people were saved. There were up to 300 people on the water person"[I]
  • Icelord April 20 2020 18: 03 New
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    So, according to international laws, only ships in a special color, with strictly regulated identification marks, are considered hospital, it is forbidden to put on hospital ships, defensive weapons, and military carts. So the Germans were in their own right, by the way, like marinescu, he also sank lawfully