"What happens if the Su-57 and F-35 meet in the sky of Syria" - the reasoning of the Chinese expert

In the Chinese media, they told their readers that Russia conducted another combat test of the 5th generation Su-57 fighters in Syria. Earlier these tests were reported by VO.

Chinese observer Zhang Diancheng decided to conduct a small comparative analysis of the situation in which the Su-57 Russian Air Force and F-35, for example the Israeli Air Force, could “meet” in Syrian airspace. “What happens if such a meeting takes place?” The Chinese expert asks. In this case, the issue is considered exclusively through the prism of air combat.

From the material:

As we all know, the huge advantage of a fifth-generation fighter is the implementation of the latest means of detecting enemy aircraft, attack and destruction tools using advanced weapons control systems, avionics. A huge role is played by long-range air-to-air missiles. F-35 and Su-57 fighters use radar with AFAR and infrared search and tracking systems. At the same time, according to some reports, the Su-57 radar is more powerful, and its detection range exceeds the detection range of the F-35.

Zhang Diancheng notes that the Su-57 would have an advantage in maneuverability and use of weapons when “meeting” the F-35 in case of real air combat. However, according to a Chinese expert, the Su-57 has “serious vulnerability” - the actual absence of “stealth” coverage - such as that of an American-made aircraft.

Therefore, the author concludes, the Su-57 has more chances to win in close air combat, and in the case of long-range combat, F-35 is preferred. It is emphasized that the comparison takes place only if we take into account the same training of pilots.

Zhang Diancheng:

Although the F-35 fighter can fly at an angle of attack of 50 degrees, it cannot carry out a combat turn. In turn, the Su-57 has excellent maneuverability, which guarantees him an advantage in close combat.

The Chinese expert notes that neither in the American nor in the Israeli media did not appear materials about the next stage of the Su-57 tests in Syria, which is an indicator of intelligence ignorance.

Comments

[Shuttle]

What will happen? Nothing will happen. They will disperse in different directions like ships in the sea.

[Alexander Suvorov]

That's it, that nothing will happen. Chinese iksperd need to have a bite, and you see, they’ll enjoy a lot of Chinese vodka in the morning and let's carry nonsense. No one except the developers and the Russian Defense Ministry knows the real parameters of the Su-57, but they are seriously discussing it. Well, I would take and compare my Chinese J-20 with the F-35. I can imagine what conclusions he would make there. As I understand it, a Chinese would have torn an American by his very appearance. Iksperd pancake.
I don’t understand why to put such nonsense on VO? Well, I understand that if they were real world experts in aviation, otherwise some lousy Zhang Diancheng, which most likely has nothing to do with aviation.

[YOUR]

Chinese columnist Zhang Diancheng ///// columnist of what?
Again they took Old with Sohu.

[Vasya I.]

Quote: Military Review

"What happens if the Su-57 and F-35 meet in the sky of Syria"

They simply fly by removing each other's signature while reflecting the signals of their own radar. Russia does not conduct military operations in Syria against states possessing F-35 fighter bombers.
I wrote about the scenario of hostilities for a long time about 2 years ago at the VO, giving the detection ranges of the N037 Belka and AN / APG-81 radars for the average values ​​of the image intensifier tubes of the Su-57 and F-35, and the possibility of using weapons, namely long-range missiles RVV-BD of the R-37M and AIM-120 types. The Su-57 is definitely stronger than the F-35 and will win, including at long distances. The F-35 will not be able to reach the line of use of its long-range AIM-120 missiles (range of 180 km) and will be destroyed by the R-37M missile (range of 300 km). However, only real air combat can solve everything ...

[Pavel57]

F-35 will not be able to reach the line of use of its long-range missiles AIM-120 (range 180 km) and will be destroyed by the R-37M rocket (range 300 km). However, only a real air battle can solve everything ...

All maximum launch ranges were obtained at maximum aircraft speeds - both for the target and at high altitudes. In reality, aircraft do not fly in such modes.

[Vasya I.]

Quote: Pavel57

All maximum launch ranges were obtained at maximum aircraft speeds - both for the target and at high altitudes. In reality, aircraft do not fly in such modes.

You can reduce the range of the R-37M missile by 70 km - the result of the defeat of the F-35 will not change ...

[Pavel57]

At what range will the Su-57 see the F-35?

[Vasya I.]

Quote: Pavel57 (Gf)

At what range will the Su-57 see the F-35?

In some sources, the parameters of the N036 "Belka" radar are the maximum range of D = 400 km for targets with an image intensifier = 1 m2. In this case, the F-35 will be detected at a distance of D = 296,033 km.
In other sources, the parameters of the N036 "Belka" radar are the maximum range of D = 400 km for targets with an image intensifier = 3 m2. At the same time, the F-35 will be detected at a distance of D = 224,937 km.

[Pavel57]

Where do these numbers come from - If F-35 is 0,01m2.,
400 km of "Squirrels" will turn into 95-125 km.

[TermNachTer]

At the moment of launching the rocket - "invisibility" becomes visible. The likelihood that drying can maneuver the mattress rocket is quite high. But the possibility of the "penguin" to get away from the Russian missile gives me strong doubts.

[Vasya I.]

Quote: Pavel57

Where do these numbers come from - If F-35 is 0,01m2.,
400 km of "Squirrels" will turn into 95-125 km.

Dear Pavel57 (Gf)! Average value Image intensifier F-22 (F-35) according to Russian experts is 0,3 - 0,4 m2. You bring amplitude minimum values ​​from some ideal direction at a certain wavelength of reflected electromagnetic waves, as well as Lockheed-Martin specialists for advertising purposes. For calculations, the average value for a certain direction is taken. You bring the value of the image intensifier = 0,01 m2 - this is 100 cm2, the value of the image intensifier of the blue dove. This is a 10x10 cm square. It is simply unrealistic for the average value of the image intensifier plane ...

[Pavel57]

The gray pigeon does not reflect anything at all)))) you can count 400 km, it will be about 220.

[Vasya I.]

Quote: Pavel57

The gray pigeon does not reflect anything at all)))) you can count 400 km, it will be about 220.

Pavel57 (Gf)! Read carefully the literature on radar and do not write your assumptions. Man also reflects. And also flocks of birds reflect electromagnetic radiation - I have repeatedly noticed on decimeter radars. And what does not suit you my recount above with six digits or more after the decimal point - doesn’t it happen more precisely? Count - discuss ...

[Passing]

Quote: Vasya I.

amplitude minimum value from some ideal direction

This is the ideal meaning not of any, but from a specific, frontal direction, from which most battles are conducted, and under which "dumb" mattress mats sharpen their stealth.

Quote: Vasya I.

Image intensifier = 0,01 m2 - this is 100 cm2 ... This is a square of 10X10 cm

The EPR and the geometric dimensions of the object do not have a direct relationship. An object may even be from planet Earth, but if it does not reflect radio waves in the direction of the radar, then its EPR will be zero.

[Vasya I.]

Quote: Passing by

Quote: Vasya I. (SET)

You are bring the amplitude minimum value from some ideal direction at a certain wavelength of reflected electromagnetic waves, as well as Lockheed-Martin specialists for advertising purposes.

This is the ideal value not of some kind, but with specific, frontal direction, from which the majority of battles are being fought, and under which "dull" mattress covers sharpen their stealth.

Passing! You're not right. When talking about the amplitude value - always means a pie chart instant Image intensifier tube at sounding at a certain frequency (wavelength), and the direction is indicated. If you are talking about average Image intensifier, it is not necessary to talk about a pie chart instant The image intensifier then matters in which hemisphere.

Quote: Passing by

Quote: Vasya I.

Image intensifier = 0,01 m2 is 100 cm2 ... This is a square of 10X10 cm.

The EPR and the geometric dimensions of the object are not directly related.

I agree with you in part, however, they have an indirect connection. I wanted to show the dimension of the image intensifier to my expressions, therefore, putting an equal sign, I am wrong... The image intensifier is an energy characteristic that determines the value of the power received by the antenna (reflected from the target signal) in relation to the power of the signal "incident" on the target, taking into account the antenna area and the range of the antenna (receiving). However, the image intensifier of a particular object depends on its shape, sizes, the material from which it is made, as well as from its orientation with respect to the receiver and transmitter.
An example is the image intensifier tubes of simple surfaces for calculating the image intensities of more complex surfaces, where they are directly related to size. These are also reference surfaces in which the image intensifier depends on the ratio of wavelength to size.

Quote: Passing by

An object may even be from planet Earth, but if it does not reflect radio waves in the direction of the radar, then its EPR will be zero.

Invisible flying vehicles do not exist in nature, but there are unobtrusive ones ... Can you give an example of completely "invisible" flying vehicles?

[Passing]

I do not quite understand about the average image intensifier tube, what is its physical and practical meaning?

Quote: Vasya I.

Can you give an example of completely "invisible" aircraft?

Strictly speaking, in a theoretical sense, they certainly do not exist, but in practice, a radar also has its own threshold of sensitivity, and devices invisible to this particular radar are possible. For example, medium-sized drones-TV cameras are generally invisible to the Carapace radar, although they have a bunch of screws, and in general they have never stealthed, there was such an experiment in the television program Military Acceptance.

[Herman 4223]

There was information that the range of 180 km was achieved when starting from f22 at a speed of 1500, and an altitude of 17 km. So f35 at such a range vryatli will launch.

[Herman 4223]

I found it more specifically.
launch of an AIM-120D AMRAAM missile (American all-weather air-to-air missile), the range of which is reported to be when launched from a typical fighter flying at high supersonic speed (> Mach 1.5) at an altitude well above 55000 feet (16,8, 96 km) is 177,79 nautical miles (XNUMX km).

[TermNachTer]

Mattresses are famous storytellers. Were the starts real or computer simulations? Or is it a flyer?

[Herman 4223]

Alas, in the article where I found this not a word about it.

[Herman 4223]

This is a translation of an American article.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-iran-could-actually-take-down-f-35-stealth-fighter-86271

[knn54]

Introductory for "analysts from the Middle Kingdom" - on "57" new engine + "Dagger".
VERY much depends on the qualifications of the pilots.
By the way, Su can dodge a rocket, but F-hardly.

[kenig1]

A dagger on the F-35, will not be a little expensive?

[Evil543]

Does the dagger work through the air?

[kenig1]

Read the comment to which I asked a question with irony.

[Evil543]

I do not understand the irony, call

[bessmertniy]

What is the use of empty Chinese fiction. If it is destined to meet, then the meeting and show HU is HU.

[svp67]

"What happens if the Su-57 and F-35 meet in the sky of Syria"

They will look at each other and disperse, having recorded this meeting on their computers ... but in general, I think that such meetings have already taken place there. Well, it's not for nothing that our "dry" flew there. And the F-35 in that region is not only at US bases.
And the Chinese described the battle is not fully registered, as it does not at all take into account the presence of an electronic warfare complex on our fighters, giving the American a long-range victory

[Boa kaa]

Quote: svp67

he completely does not take into account the presence of an electronic warfare complex on our fighters, giving the American a long-range victory

1. The Ams and Kitaisa naively believe that the "invisibility" of the aircraft provides only a cover that absorbs electromagnetic radiation, forgetting about plasma generators and other physical principles of object concealment.
2. The REB complex is good for covering an aircraft from RVV-DB attacks if it is in the machine and is included in a single avionics system. At 57 there are already AI elements, so (in theory) there should be no problems with this ..
So, let's hope that "the victory will be ours"!

[Russobel]

How do these Chinese experts like to compare everything.
Meet then and it will be seen.
Something these Chinese analysts have stirred recently, probably envy ...

[Chaldon48]

In fact, what happens if a combat knife and a dagger meet? Nothing special, the victory will go to the owner who owns it better.

[Aibolit]

This article is not worth it, even the time spent on it + this is not “our” egsperd: it is rather weak against ours.
Connoisseurs would say: the topic is not disclosed.
And if it’s serious: the garbage (about the article) that can spoil the holiday mood

[bessmertniy]

Doctor, you're right! The holiday is more important to us than empty reasoning.

[Aleks2048]

All these Chinese inventions of the expert are not worth the paper on which they are written. In the Russian Federation, su57 can be counted on the fingers and even pilots capable of fighting on them are also units. So that about any participation in hostilities where the plane and the pilot are in danger for the su57 is not expected.

[Amateur]

“What happens if such a meeting takes place?” The Chinese expert asks.

"A clever monkey sits at the top of a hill and watches two tigers fight in the valley." (Mao Zedong)

[Crimean partisan 1974]

Syria laughed --- in heaven, yes, they rub there side by side, there is no long distance from the word at all, the Xiaopinist is not friends with geography along the way

[Avior]

The battle between Su57 and f35, even if Israeli, even American, is not possible in Syria, but there is a clear miscalculation in the Chinese’s reasoning, he considers close combat with f35, which is generally accepted to be considered a battle within the limits of visual visibility, but in fact f35 is made so that Avoid battle and lead it beyond visual visibility

[bessmertniy]

He's just some kind of provocateur. It is urging us to push the United States with Russia once again.

[Avior]

I think China is full of everything for all occasions, the country is big, and what we chose from this for us is the choice of the editorial staff of the resource
There are never any links, or someone will check what is really written there, but this time even the resource from which the article was taken was not indicated
Serious source, go

[HAM]

Something the "expert" modestly kept silent, how would the Chinese J20 deal with both if I met ... now it is fashionable for the Chinese to glorify their clones ..

[KCA]

I wonder where the Chinese iksperd could see and touch the serial SU-57 for the presence of "steos" -coating? Or should all prototypes be coated, with all radar and electronic warfare systems, and fully armed? Each prototype could be designed to test only a narrow range of tasks.

[rocket757]

At the same time, according to some reports, the Su-57 radar is more powerful, and its detection range exceeds the detection range of the F-35.

This is "beautiful", straightforwardly encouraging.
In general, then everything is so approximately.
The planes, neither one nor the other, are not fully completed, in the process of t.s., so reasoning about it is like fortunetelling ... on giblets, for example.

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

What happens if the Su-57 and F-35 meet in the sky of Syria?

J-20 wins!

[cniza]

The professional who controls will win.

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

I believe our Chinese comrades especially that if they meet Su-57 and F-35 in Syria, the Chinese J-20 will win with a hundred percent advantage, because it is the best and most invisible (except for Indians) aircraft in the world !!!!

[Al_lexx]

Full crap, sorry. Kmk, at long distances, if you have already been discovered and launched, the first violin is played by the means of the reb, and not some kind of cover there. )))

[Pavel57]

Long distances do not provide guaranteed defeat for the enemy, since the enemy can banally turn away, and the rocket will not catch up with him. There is the concept of guaranteed range - when you turn it off, do not turn it off, the rocket will catch you. It for ordinary straight trajectories is approximately half the maximum range. A range of 300 km - most likely these are special trajectories that make sense only for hitting targets such as AWACS.

[Maks1995]

In fact, neither SU nor F should use their radar - otherwise Khan stealth.
Who is the first to see the light from a flying radar - that’s what’s important - and who’s better at stealth for avoiding missiles !!!

Or how else?

[Avior]

Or more like
Americans declare for their afar stealth mode of operation with a low probability of interception, disguised as interference
How it really works, no one knows, but there are statements about it

[Maks1995]

In principle, a logical idea

[Al_lexx]

Quote: Max1995

Who is the first to see the light from a flying radar - that’s what’s important - and who’s better at stealth for avoiding missiles !!!

Stealth, it’s even stealth, that would be closer to the enemy, remaining stealthy himself. A missile takes a target for auto tracking at a completely different distance (i.e., much closer) than its carrier radar. Before that, she just flies to a certain given square. At the same time, the enemy firing a rocket can safely turn off the radiation and also go into stealth mode. While the attacker does not see the missile until the missile starts homing, which may be too late for missile defense. And here is just a certain incident, which consists in the fact that in order to detect the enemy, capture the target and launch, you need to turn on the radar. The same thing in order to see the rocket attacking you. But the very inclusion of radiation negates any technology of stealth. Hence, a very logical summary.
The stealth technology justifies itself only when working on previously reconnoitered ground targets and allows you to reach the air-to-surface missile launch distance before the carrier is detected by ground-based air defense systems or AWACS aircraft and immediately after launch, turning off the radar radiation, safely exit the air defense work area . In aerial combat, a fighter-fighter, this technology is useless, for the reasons that I voiced above. Well, flew close and quietly so what? At medium distances, this penguin does not shine at all. And about small ones and there’s nothing to talk about.
Of course, I may be mistaken in the details, but the essence is approximately as follows. An inconspicuous fighter can come close blindly as much as necessary to the area of ​​the alleged location of the enemy fighter, but he will be blind until he turns on the radar or notices the radiation of the enemy’s radar while in passive reconnaissance mode. But as soon as he begins to prepare for an attack, he will immediately fall into the scope.
Therefore, all this talk about aerial combat between fighters, in the context of stealth technology preferences, is meaningless. Only electronic warfare means are important at long distances of such aerial combat. They can lead the missile away from the target. And it is necessary to speak here about the advantages and disadvantages of electronic equipment and the algorithms of its operation (which is a secret), and not about any kind of coverage or glider geometry there.

[Maks1995]

In principle, it is true, but the options are, when he himself sneaks up stealthily, while orienting the reflected signal from AWACS or other aircraft ??? Is rocket launch possible?

Since military ranks have already made declarations, that SU57 will be the eyes of the army from above, and armats - with the eyes from below))))

[Al_lexx]

Quote: Max1995

options when he stealthily sneaks up, and focusing on the reflected signal from AWACS or other aircraft ??? Is rocket launch possible?

No, not so.
Once again, by heart and with an expression:
- To lock the target and launch, you first need to turn on the radar in active mode. Otherwise, the missile will not receive target designation. And the fact that a long-range missile just flies in the indicated direction for some time does not cancel this rule. We have not yet learned how to receive target designation for a rocket from other sources of information. From the moment the radar is turned on, until the moment of launch, several seconds will pass, during which the attacker will be identified and the attacked will immediately take countermeasures. Will put active and passive interference, change course, etc. This is true for both sides involved in aerial combat. This is where our dryer has an advantage, as it has a more powerful radar and a more advanced passive observation mode. That is why the Su-57 is called "eyes from above". He simply sees farther than any other fighter. At the same time, to believe that he does not possess stealth technologies is somewhat erroneous, for a number of reasons. If only because. that we do not advertise this fighter in such a way, which does not mean that it loses much in stealth, provided that it has a much greater detection range of the enemy with its radar.
According to information from other sources, you can only direct the carrier itself (interceptor / fighter) to the target and nothing more. Ground radar or AWACS give only an indication of which square, which and with what parameters are some targets. According to the reflected r.signal, the rocket is not induced, it is not a laser pointer / backlight.
To understand this simple truth, you need to understand the basics of Doppler radio location. Only the radar that emits radiation can take the target for tracking, and only when the target is in motion, due to the difference between the outgoing and reflected signals. That is why helicopters are difficult targets, as they are capable of freezing. In such a situation, when the target does not move, the Doppler location is practically powerless and the means of destruction are induced in other ways.
In short, learn the materiel.

[Maks1995]

Thank. A little long, but about the main thing, I enlightened.

[Lesorub]

Su-57 is a “serious vulnerability” - the actual absence of “stealth” coverage - such as that of an American-made aircraft.

The Chinese can be fantasized as much as they like - without knowing the characteristics of any one or two aircraft - all just their wild imagination)))

[Gnefredov]

"What happens if the Su-57 and F-35 meet in the sky of Syria"
-
God forbid. Hot phase immediately. And from China, the wet spot will remain (so incidentally).

[vfwfr]

There: "Chinese xperd" "Here:" "your xperd" ".... nothing personal

[mikael]

stealth coating is graphite painting and that's it

[vanavatny]

X + Y- Z = H, I am an expert and a know-it-all with a tolerance above the average ...

[Umsan Umsanov]

whoever discovers first is the one who won.

[maiman61]

What will happen? Already happened, our plane flew, mocked the F-35, but he did not even notice it!

[voyaka uh]

A counter battle of two stealths - solid X's. Not only are the radars of both aircraft poorly seeing each other, the radars of their explosives missiles see stealths even worse.
Mutual misses of explosive missiles from both fighters are possible.

[Pavel57]

Most likely the battles will be fought as a result at medium ranges. And this will reduce the result to the efficiency of jamming stations.

[voyaka uh]

It seems like ...

[Lone gunman]

Again at Putin V.V. friends will appear in the "east" or Israel, as was the case with Turkey.

[Zampolit-m]

In turn, the Su-57 has excellent maneuverability, which guarantees him an advantage in close combat.

Actually, fighters of this class are not intended for close combat, but everything can be. I hope they just bully and fly apart.

[Technologist]

Already got these if yes!

[Ax Matt]

Where is the logic here? The radar is more powerful on the Su-57, it will see the enemy (even the F-35!) Earlier, but the "stealth" coverage, you know, will not let our Su-35 win a long-range battle ... Well, outright nonsense! If he saw a target, launched a launch, but the enemy does not see you, consider the ranged battle won. And then, all this is written on the water with a pitchfork. Everything will show a real clash, which, God forbid, should NEVER happen! Happy New Year, everyone!

[Looking for]

but nothing will happen on the first day the SU-57 will be shot down. ON THE SECOND-F-35F, and on the third, a couple of dozen or more F-35s will arrive AND “CUTTING” a few pathetic SU-57s into small cabbage. The same alignment will take place in the Russian-Chinese confrontation .. What do you think.the grief-analytics.what would the coalition Germany defeat.if it had an equal number of aircraft.tanks.artillery.and other.And you are releasing a pair of SU-57. (if you release it) per month. and there too !!!

[ppgt90]

Here is another "expert talker". The main thing is to wrinkle your tongue. Do you, my dear fellow, have complete information regarding the capabilities of the Russian Aerospace Forces? Do you also absolutely know everything about the state of affairs in the Russian air defense system? Do not flutter your tongue, there will be no blisters, and you do not need to expose your nonsense to the public.

[Looking for]

Your post testifies not to my "foolishness" but about your short-sighted "shapkozakidatelsve" By the way, I do not give a damn about the general review. I have OWN !!! OPINION: And what does the Russian air defense have to do with it? Remember, we must soberly assess the situation.

[ppgt90]

What experts from China can we talk about? The Chinese Air Force has not conducted a single real air battle. The Chinese army has no experience of military operations at all. NO ONE. Chinese equipment, both the Air Force and ground combat vehicles and ships of the Chinese Navy, have not been tested in real combat conditions. That is, all this "Chinese power" is a huge pig in a poke. The skills of the Chinese military are highly questionable. Training ranges are one thing, real clashes are another. In the history of China, something is not visible military victories. Little Japan has cornered huge China, Korea and several other countries in the Pacific region, taking France and Great Britain. That is, China does not have prominent military figures. And all of a sudden, the Chinese had "experts" doing some kind of comparative analysis and giving out incomprehensible maxims. Did they get high on fly agaric? How can one compare combat vehicles, practically not knowing the real characteristics of these vehicles? It is necessary to take into account the level of training of pilots and much more. Why publish this nonsense of some "Chinese expert"? He is the same expert as the prima ballerina from me. I do not know what "fouette" is, but I can easily use my tongue.

[KJIETyc]

These kosher EFs with Luneberg lenses all fly, according to the same VO, no matter what, God forbid, burn the real EPR. So they will spot him from 400 km And please dismiss, from the next nonsense about 0.01. These are not trains that travel on rails to meet each other.

[Pavel57]

Nobody will fight with lenses. Therefore, real EPR can be endlessly fantasized.

[Thrombus]

How do they know about the stealth coverage of the su-57? out of nowhere, then chatter and empty infa.

[Finn]

They are invisible, how can they meet?)))

[DMB-2020]

God forbid, of course, that the Su-57 "met" in a real battle with the F-35. "Sushka" now has nothing, except for the standard machine gun from the onboard armament at the moment. He can, of course, try to go to the clouds on supermachines and use the Stealth technology, but this is somehow not very good.

[Crystal of Truth]

They will not meet .. There was 1 57 and he fell ... Kina will not

[Rome]

I am not an expert, but purely logical: how should stealth each other in the distance beat? If they can’t turn on the radar! ... turning on the radar, he immediately burn off the enemy does not turn on his radar, just launches missiles from the AGS, focusing on the radar radiation and hello as I understand it, long-range stealth combat is a team game and very difficult, single stealth, in theory, can only fight in close combat because turning on the radar you are no longer stealth, but a target, isn’t it?