Military Review

The bell is not heard under water

123

The other day, TASS reported, citing its sources in the Ministry of Defense and the USC, that there, in the bowels of the departments, the issue of building another series of Varshavyanka class submarines is being considered.


For the Baltic ...

The question arises: is it zrad or overdrive?

It seems like a breakthrough.

Boats, especially submarines, as I have said more than once, are excellent. We can’t build aircraft carriers and cruisers, we need to rivet the submarines in such quantities that the whole world with a shudder looks at the ocean surface in case of something. For it is from there that HE, the Day of Judgment, the Apocalypse, or simply multi-megaton greetings to our enemies will come.

So for the Baltic fleet will build "Varshavyanka". Well, not the newest project, after all, the 70s of the last century, they began to build from the 90s ...

However, the boats of this project in different versions serve in several fleets (China, Algeria, Vietnam, Russia), and so far seem to meet modern requirements. Not at the highest level, but consistent.

In general, if you look at the payroll of the Twice Red Banner Baltic Fleet, it becomes uncomfortable.

How many submarines do we have in the Baltic?

That's right, one. While the "potential" 16 boats: six German, five Polish and five Swedish submarines. And do not say that the Swedes are neutral. Considering how they regularly find our boats in their waters, everything is in order with “neutrality”.

That is, if anything, they will drown.

And we have one diesel-electric submarine. Yes, and that - conditionally.

Conditionally, this is because the B-806 “Dmitrov” torpedo diesel-electric submarine (877EKM project “Halibut”) became part of the Soviet Navy 33 a year ago, in 1986. This is not a boat, it’s, sorry for the comparison, almost “Zaporozhye” in the Ukrainian fleet. But at least it’s swimming.

Today, Dmitrov is used exclusively for training anti-submarine calculations of surface ships. The boat is clearly unsuitable for any real military operations, moreover, it will definitely be decommissioned, like its unfortunate sisters, the Vyborg diesel-electric submarine (1983 year).


Last year, the B-227 Vyborg was withdrawn from the combat strength of the fleet and transferred as an exhibit to the branch of the Patriot park that was being created in Kronstadt.

In general, everyone understood how wonderful and readily everything is.

The bell is not heard under water

Understood even in the command of the fleet. And they decided to strengthen the Baltic submarine division (well, what can I say if it is one in the division?) With another boat, having transferred it from the Black Sea.

The idea is sound, if not for one "BUT".

This is another “Halibut”, DEPL B-871 “Alrosa”. For a long time, Alrosa was the only submarine in the Black Sea Fleet. So deserved ship, 1988 of the year of manufacture, that for the past 5 (FIVE) years it has been being repaired in the walls of the shipyard No. 13 in Sevastopol.


So, as soon as Alrosa goes out of repair (if it does, something is wrong with the engines), it will be transferred from the Black Sea to the Baltic Sea, to the 3 separate BF division in Kronstadt.

How valuable such an enhancement, I think, is not worth deciphering. Instead of one pimped will be two. This, of course, will raise something. Combat potential, perhaps. But in fact - everything is very bad here.

I would not want to praise the enemy. But the fact: German submarines belong to the latest 212A project and in fact, only they will be enough to complicate the situation. Indeed, in terms of secrecy of navigation, they are an order of magnitude better than the old "Halibut", since they are equipped with an air-independent power plant (VNEU) and therefore are able to not surface for almost a month.

Unlike “Halibut”, which are forced to appear on the surface at best every 3-4 of the day to recharge their batteries. At the risk of being detected not only by sonar, but also by enemy radar stations.

By the way, everything that is said in the direction of “Halibut” is also true for “Varshavyanka”. The problem of VNEU was not solved, so you really should not count on really outdated boats if something happens.

And, by the way, there’s another unpleasant moment. Until the appearance of the first Varshavyanka in Kronstadt, neither the B-806 Dmitrov nor the B-871 Alrosa will survive.

Admiralty Shipyards are now building boats (the same Varshavyanki boats) for the Pacific Fleet. And to do this, according to the contract, will be until 2023 year. That is, laying the first boat for the Baltic will not be earlier than the first of the Pacific boats leaves the plant, is it logical?

That is, not earlier than 2023 year. Annoying? Annoying.

“Admiralty Shipyards”, which have taken off overclocking so well and work in such a way that the pace is not Soviet, of course, but quite imagined, they will build boats for the Baltic. There is absolutely no doubt about that. The whole question is when?

Let's try to predict. The series will be the same as for the Black Sea Fleet and Pacific Fleet, or less. 4-6 boats. Less than four makes no sense at all, given the balance of power, I would have decided that after all six.

The first boat will be available in the 2026-2027 years, the entire series in the 2030 year. This is in the most successful scenario.

That is, two rarities, Alrosa and Dmitrov, will have to serve at least another 7 years. As much as possible? It is very doubtful that the boats will go to cut much earlier, it’s dangerous to sail on them now, not like going on military campaigns.

Yes, they’ll last a couple of years. Farther from the submarine division will remain the headquarters with coastal rats.

There are no boats in the Baltic - this is not only a breach in defense. Thank God, it seems as long as no war is foreseen. But there is one more nuance. An undetermined amount of time (5-8 years) will not be carried out training for the sub-melting. But this is worse, and worse pretty.

And the third minus. This is, in fact, the Varshavyanka itself. More precisely, the lack of the same VNEU. The boat itself is really good, the only problem is that it still belongs to the third generation, that is, it is being built, modernizing, from 1983 of the year.

Not a girl, as it were.


Over the past couple of decades, Varshavyanka has repeatedly tried to sentence. And stop releasing really outdated (albeit morally) boats.

Germany, Sweden, Japan, China, South Korea, Australia, Singapore have long said goodbye to the third generation and build and use more modern submarines.

But in Russia, everything is somehow not very in this regard. Money is poured in as before, but there is no result.

But nothing works out for us. Despite the mountains spent in various design bureaus of money. And here the question arises of the competence of the employees of TsKB Rubin, which consumes money with enviable regularity, spewing mountains of promises in response.

And VNEU is still there ... Despite many peppy statements for the press of Russian designers at the annual forum of promises “Army- ...” Tomorrow, the maximum, the day after tomorrow everything will be!

But time is passing, and there are no changes in terms of VNEU. And, apparently, it will not.

But admitting this is apparently unrealistic. Therefore, strange dances with shorts of the fourth generation of the 667 Lada project continue. “St. Petersburg” was launched in the 2009 year, and it continues to exist as a do not understand what with diesel engines.


In the 2005 year in St. Petersburg, the B-586 Kronstadt was laid at the shipyards, and in the 2006 year the B-587 Great Luke was laid.

In 2018 (!!!) Kronstadt was launched and even began to be tested. Again, with conventional diesels. In the 2020 year, apparently, the Great Luke is facing the same path.


How then will the Lada project differ from Varshavyanka? Find, as they say, three differences.

But ours went even further. “The fourth generation is garbage! We will build the fifth right away! ”

Well, with loud statements, we always had a complete order, they declared more than enough. There were many interviews and stories about how the fifth generation boat will tear competitors. They even came up with a name - Kalina.

But either the name didn’t really fit, or, by analogy with AvtoVAZ’s products, Kalina didn’t go very well. More precisely, did not go, unlike the car, at all.

According to the United Shipbuilding Corporation, the design of such a wonderful Kalina was assigned to 2015. Pledge it at the Admiralty Shipyards in 2018. But not laid so far.

And do not lay. VNEU ...

But in March of 2019 of the year there was information that "funding for a project to develop a promising non-volatile power plant with an oxygen-hydrogen type electrochemical generator to equip advanced ultra-low-noise non-nuclear submarines of the 677 Lada Ave. was frozen."

Apparently, the patience of someone at the top burst, and more “Ruby” containers with money do not shine.

As well as the Russian Navy does not shine the fourth (at least) generation submarines.

Accordingly, the only thing left is to build the Varshavyanka. Here are the promises, here’s the prospect.

And now, how is it logical to judge how good and beautiful it all is? The situation is so-so. In the Far East, according to some, Tanks they will be able to withstand the amphibious landing and will sink the ships, God forbid that at least “Varshavyanka” appear in the Baltic.

Yes, the boat is old, of Soviet design. It was once unique. Now - a strong middle peasant, nothing more. Yes, adapting to Caliber is not bad. This is very good.

Especially in the Baltic, where there are plenty of opponents and well-wishers, but we don’t have boats.

Well, everything is as always. But if it is not possible to build modern submarines, you need to somehow get out of the situation and build what is possible. Even if it’s an old Varshavyanka with Caliber.

This is better than the “nothing” that we have today in the Baltic.
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  1. loha
    loha 21 November 2019 06: 25 New
    +2
    VNEU is certainly good ...... But
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 21 November 2019 06: 36 New
      +8
      It's better than nothing
      And then, in perspective!
      1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
        Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 21 November 2019 09: 16 New
        +22
        Quote: Uncle Lee
        in perspective !

        The author writes that there is a prospect. New chevrons will be.
        Farther from the submarine division will remain the headquarters with coastal rats.

        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 21 November 2019 10: 44 New
          +15
          Quote: Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
          The author writes that there is a prospect. New chevrons will be.

          One boat, but the division is not on paper, but in kind. The commander of the boat is captain of 3 rank, and the commander of the division is captain of 1 rank, and how many staffs still feed at this division. In the photo there is a boat at the pier, and the pier is killed. And indeed the Baltic Twice Red Banner fleet is also killed. And I remember the time "when the whole of Kronstadt was packed with ships standing in two hulls. Baltiysk is no better. It's a shame for the fleet and for the state.
          1. Winnie76
            Winnie76 21 November 2019 12: 09 New
            +18
            Quote: tihonmarine
            And I remember the time “when the whole of Kronstadt was packed with ships standing in two hulls. Baltiysk is not better.

            Do you need to score them? In fact, the Baltic is a small puddle on which we have only two bases that are easily blocked. Everything is shot from all directions.
            IMHO division pl in the Baltic Sea is needed last. The same calibers are easier to launch from land-based launchers, and the sea can be controlled by Balls, Bastions and aircraft.
            1. kuz363
              kuz363 21 November 2019 18: 19 New
              +3
              And the depths of the Baltic are insufficient. to ensure the hidden movement of the boat
            2. Massimo
              Massimo 21 November 2019 19: 47 New
              +6
              Looks like the Germans are fools, fools - sixteen boats have in the Baltic ...
              1. Winnie76
                Winnie76 21 November 2019 20: 03 New
                +4
                Quote: Massimo
                Looks like the Germans are fools, fools - sixteen boats have in the Baltic ...

                Man, see the political map of the Baltic Sea. Unfortunately I can not download and upload. In short, we cannot block them, they are easy for us. Geography
              2. geniy
                geniy 21 November 2019 20: 36 New
                +4
                You apparently forgot that the Germans have access to the North Sea. And their boats can easily move from the North Sea to the Baltic. Therefore, you only formally consider German boats to be Baltic.
              3. Sergej1972
                Sergej1972 21 November 2019 23: 36 New
                +1
                Where did they get 16 boats?
    2. Civil
      Civil 21 November 2019 08: 22 New
      +3
      It's kind of sad about the famous "black hole", but we must confront the aggressive NATO bloc. Otherwise, all socialist gains will fall ... and what will fall there.
      1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
        Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 21 November 2019 09: 37 New
        +26
        Quote: Civil
        Otherwise, all socialist gains will fall ...

        Skomorokhov attached to the article a photo of a submarine of the 690 project (Mullet) - "SS-330". The submarine was laid in 1969 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur at the Lenin Komsomol plant. Launched the next year - 10 July 1970 year. In November of the 1970 of the year, it became part of the Pacific Fleet and was credited to the 4-th BrPL 6-th EscPL KTOF based on the Golden Horn Bay (Vladivostok). By 1984, it was transferred to the Black Sea and included in the Black Sea Fleet. In October 1999, Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Russian Federation V. Putin signed a decree (Decree of the Government of the Russian Federation No. 1687 of 19.10.1999) on donating SS-310 to Ukraine for the organization of a naval museum. Subsequently, the SS-330 safely drowned, plundered for scrap, at the berth of the Kherson shipyard
        1. Alex_59
          Alex_59 21 November 2019 09: 52 New
          +8
          Quote: Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
          "SS-330"

          CC-310. Not a combat boat. Target boat for full-scale torpedo fire, should imitate the target.
          1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Parabelum
          Parabelum 22 November 2019 13: 35 New
          +2
          I also didn’t like that the state of affairs in the Baltic Fleet is shown on the example of a Ukrainian submarine, here they talk about it
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyddIQfknak
      2. New Year day
        New Year day 21 November 2019 13: 41 New
        +8
        Quote: Civil
        Otherwise, all socialist gains will fall ...

        they have long fallen hi
        1. alexmach
          alexmach 22 November 2019 09: 23 New
          0
          Well, not quite. There is still medicine and education, which are not some but massively available.
    3. ser56
      ser56 21 November 2019 12: 52 New
      +4
      Quote: loha
      VNEU is certainly good ...... But

      not important for the Baltic - small ... request
      By the way, the author writes the controversial:
      "Indeed, in terms of stealth, they are much better than the old Halibut because they are equipped with an air-independent power plant (VNEU) and therefore are able to not surface for almost a month."
      Existing VNEU reduce stealth under water - because more noisy ... so, for the Baltic, their presence is debatable ...
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin 21 November 2019 19: 42 New
        0
        Do the Swedes just do the stirling?
        1. ser56
          ser56 22 November 2019 11: 22 New
          0
          Quote: garri-lin
          Do the Swedes just do the stirling?

          there are no other VNEUs yet ...
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 22 November 2019 20: 10 New
            0
            And the Germans have ECG? Noisiness to a minimum.
            1. ser56
              ser56 23 November 2019 15: 24 New
              0
              Quote: garri-lin
              Noisiness to a minimum.

              this is a qualitative answer ... comparable to Varshavyanka under electric motors - who will be noisier?
              1. garri-lin
                garri-lin 24 November 2019 00: 53 New
                0
                So there and there electric motors. A different way to get energy. Noisiness will depend on the quality of the engines and the quality of the noise reduction measures.
                1. ser56
                  ser56 25 November 2019 12: 17 New
                  0
                  Quote: garri-lin
                  Different way to get energy

                  namely, the batteries do not make noise, but the Stirging engine is by no means ... well, and liquid oxygen on board for the kit ... request
    4. Bratkov Oleg
      Bratkov Oleg 24 November 2019 21: 07 New
      0
      Quote: loha
      VNEU is certainly good ...... But

      It seems like in Germany all submarines with VNEU are under repair? Not combat ready? They are modern, the best, the pinnacle of engineering ... But everything is under repair.
  2. phair
    phair 21 November 2019 06: 28 New
    +12
    In Vladivostok there are 3 “Varshavyanka” and one training (who are interested in standing in Ullis, you can see it from the shore, from the bridge too). They go. If Alrosa did not burn, what should it be repaired for 5 years? They also steal from us, there is no insulator in B. Stone, but there is one in Nakhodka. We are waiting for landings ...
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 21 November 2019 07: 09 New
      +3
      Quote: phair
      We are waiting for landings ...

      To the bottom or bottom?
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 21 November 2019 10: 46 New
        +2
        Quote: Stroporez
        To the bottom or bottom?

        The White Swan.
        1. phair
          phair 22 November 2019 10: 04 New
          0
          There is a camp site, in place of the DR ...
          https://www.vl.ru/belyj-lebed-ooo-ozdorovitelnyj-centr-baza-otdyha?integration=farpost
    2. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
      Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 21 November 2019 09: 21 New
      +12
      Quote: phair
      They also steal from us,

      Of course, we live in one country. Take, for example, the B-380 Gorky Komsomolets, which, since 1991, has been listed as being repaired in the floating dock PD-16 in the South Bay near Sevastopol. In 2005, the submarine was transferred to 247 as a separate submarine division, and three years later unofficially called "Holy Prince George." 2009 million rubles were spent on its repair at 800, and now they have decided to dispose of it with the dock.
      http://deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/45-92/dts/641b/B-380/B-380.htm
      1. Civil
        Civil 21 November 2019 13: 09 New
        +2
        This is the number!
      2. New Year day
        New Year day 21 November 2019 13: 43 New
        +6
        Quote: Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
        decided to dispose of it with the dock.

        radical decision, nothing to say
    3. curio
      curio 21 November 2019 11: 56 New
      +1
      To be more precise, not 3 but 6 .... 19th bpl
  3. 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 21 November 2019 06: 29 New
    +11
    Roman, do you really think that we need to surpass all NATO in the number of weapons (PL) and that we can pull it, if even the USSR couldn’t? and if we are less then everything is gone? 12 boats in the Baltic are common for all European countries .. Moreover, the Baltic Fleet is very specific due to the lack of operational space, shallow depths, the proximity of bases in all countries and the fact that the Baltic states are no longer in the USSR ...
    1. kepmor
      kepmor 21 November 2019 08: 14 New
      +16
      Baltic submarines are even more necessary than for the Black Sea Fleet ...
      the Black Sea is deep-sea, with excellent hydrology, which a priori provides long detection ranges of not only GAS boats, but GAS of anti-submarine ships ... there are not many of them there, but enough to protect Sevastopol and Novorossiysk, because there’s nothing to deploy there ... and the fact that our Warsaw women through the Bosphorus to Middle-earth, as they run to their garden, is temporary ... the Turks just haven’t got everything from us ...
      in the Baltic, the situation is completely different ... in shallow water, under the conditions of a constant hydrological "Napoleon cake", the effectiveness of saber GAS ships inevitably tends to zero ... anti-submarine aircraft on the Baltic Fleet are absent "as unnecessary" ... so that the only ones and at least somehow effective anti-submarine defense forces remain diesel-electric submarines ... which simply do not exist ...
      there is a branch of the Patriot ... but there are no boats ... there are annual epic water shows ... but there are no boats ...
      Well, right, how can I not remember Lavrov ...
      R. S. in Soviet times, at the DCBF there was a squadron of submarines in Liepaja, brigades of submarines in Baltiysk and Kronstadt ...
      1. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 21 November 2019 09: 00 New
        +4
        Alexei, I didn’t say anywhere that they are not needed .. I mean that 3 boats, yes, it’s not much, but we are no longer the USSR .. we just have so many factories right now and that's exactly what the diesel-electric submarines are built on compared with the nuclear submarines quickly and without stopping, let Roman tell us - where to build them yet, now? Criticizing-offer!
        I think how to fill the Pacific Fleet, and get to the Baltic .. about VNEU another question, but maybe because of what you wrote, it is in the Baltic that it is not particularly needed-there and on batteries you can get almost everywhere.
        In addition, in the Baltic Sea, the gauges on diesel-electric submarines are not particularly needed - we get almost everything from the shore, maybe some other class of submarines is needed - smaller and quieter ..
        And in the end there, with potential enemies and by land bordering in essence, tanks will come to the Navy base — you won’t especially fight .. so, for the times of the USSR, everything was right, but now it’s a debatable issue ..
        1. Valdaev
          Valdaev 21 November 2019 12: 24 New
          -9
          neither boats nor calibers are needed in the Baltic. no one is going to attack from that side, no one gave it to hell. calm down already. chtol soldiers in childhood did not play enough?
          1. VIT101
            VIT101 21 November 2019 16: 31 New
            +6
            Quote: Valdaev
            neither boats nor calibers are needed in the Baltic. nobody from that side is going to attack


            Well, if they cut their boats and left one for parity. And so 6: 1 in their favor. And they’re kind of not going to cut theirs ...
            1. Valdaev
              Valdaev 22 November 2019 11: 46 New
              -7
              it is their business. I repeat - NATO will not attack Russia, they don’t need it. to consider them as opponents and to build the armed forces based on the hypothesis of war with them is stupid. Maybe, of course, Pu himself is going to attack, according to the principle "the war will write everything off" (and they turned so much that you need to hold power with your teeth), but that's another question
              1. VIT101
                VIT101 22 November 2019 22: 05 New
                +1
                Quote: Valdaev
                I repeat - NATO will not attack Russia, they don’t need it.


                Do you admit that Russia will attack NATO? Me not. But the escalation of military psychosis is for some reason coming from that direction. It seems that someone needs it there.
                1. Valdaev
                  Valdaev 25 November 2019 11: 17 New
                  0
                  In December 2013, the last Abrams at that time was taken from Europe. After the "Russian Spring" Abrams returned to Europe
              2. tracer
                tracer 24 November 2019 17: 37 New
                -5
                Be careful Valdeev. See that Putin doesn’t attack you from under the bed at night. He's so ... Be ready, always lay an oilcloth.
        2. Most kind
          Most kind 24 November 2019 18: 27 New
          0
          Previously they were planed in Komsomolsk on Amur, Khabarovsk, Nikolaevsk on Amur, there are some kind of dagg cities as part of Russia, so far, I just don’t know about Komsomolsk, I don’t know about Komsomolsk, they also cut Amul boats there, good boats by the way. So something like this
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 21 November 2019 10: 51 New
        +1
        Quote: kepmor
        in Soviet times, the DCBF had a submarine squadron in Liepaja, submarine brigades in Baltiysk and Kronstadt ...

        And the Samokhinsky Brigade in Paldiski.
      3. Winnie76
        Winnie76 21 November 2019 12: 28 New
        +3
        Quote: kepmor
        Baltic submarines are even more necessary than for the Black Sea Fleet ...
        the Black Sea is deep-sea, with excellent hydrology, which a priori provides long-range detection of not only GAS boats, but GAS of anti-submarine ships

        And how will these hypothetical subplots reach “excellent hydrology” and why? If the exits from the bases will be littered with mines, and the bases themselves will be attacked by missiles, aircraft and possibly artillery.
        Quote: kepmor
        anti-submarine aircraft on the BF is absent "as unnecessary."

        Why would Nato Plo in the Baltic in general, if the boats can be destroyed right at the base. Or destroy the base itself
        Quote: kepmor
        there is a branch of the Patriot ... but there are no boats ... there are annual epic water shows ... but there are no boats ...
        Well, right, how can I not remember Lavrov ...

        Do not distort. There are no boats in the Baltic because they are not particularly needed
        1. kepmor
          kepmor 21 November 2019 13: 09 New
          +4
          ... the exits from the bases will be littered with mines, and the bases themselves will be attacked by missiles, aircraft and possibly artillery ...
          based on your so stunning conclusion, you can draw a "conclusion" that you should not have a fleet in the Baltic Sea, and not only on it ... they’ll all be drowned at the berths under a hail of missiles, bombs and artillery shells ... well except for parades ...
          1. Winnie76
            Winnie76 21 November 2019 13: 53 New
            +2
            Quote: kepmor
            based on your so stunning conclusion, you can draw a "conclusion" that you shouldn’t have a fleet in the Baltic, and not only on it ... they’ll all be drowned at the berths under a hail of missiles, bombs and artillery shells

            Do not distort. Better look at the map. Russia owns 5 percent of the coast of the Baltic Sea. A large fleet will simply have nowhere to go with a serious cut
            1. Harry.km
              Harry.km 26 November 2019 22: 46 New
              -2
              Quote: Winnie76
              Do not distort. Better look at the map. Russia owns 5 percent of the coast of the Baltic Sea. A large fleet will simply have nowhere to go with a serious cut

              It is necessary to have so many fleets that 95% of the coast belong to Russia after a "serious slaughter". Then there will be no "hack" ...
          2. mmaxx
            mmaxx 22 November 2019 03: 42 New
            0
            Vopschem, yes.
      4. arhPavel
        arhPavel 23 November 2019 10: 39 New
        +1
        I'm certainly not a specialist like you. Even comparing the area and depth of these seas without analyzing the current effectiveness of anti-submarine assets in the region.
        The average depth is 1300m Black and 50m Baltic. The working depths of the submarines do not fit somewhat. It’s clear that the landscape is used for secretive movement, but just think that the “partners” are well aware of this.
        And missile supply can interrupt the supply of troops through the Baltic Sea much more effectively.
        Submarine is an expensive tool, tell me for what purposes of the Russian Federation, in addition to training anti-submarine defense, are they needed in the Baltic?
        And in the article I did not see this.
  4. Deck
    Deck 21 November 2019 06: 36 New
    +17
    Well, we were so proud of the Black Hole.
    https://topwar.ru/74862-chernaya-dyra-boevoy-korabl-proekta-877.html
    And here we were proud
    https://topwar.ru/128711-morskaya-chernaya-dyra-podlodka-varshavyanka-za-60-sekund.html
    They were very proud here
    https://topwar.ru/58374-chernomorskiy-flot-poluchil-odnu-iz-samyh-skrytnyh-podvodnyh-lodok.html
    Then the enemies were enthusiastic and scared
    https://topwar.ru/74303-national-interest-v-rossii-spuschena-na-vodu-samaya-maloshumnaya-podlodka-v-mire.html
    Here, in general, the American aircraft carrier was drowned
    https://topwar.ru/108556-kak-dizelnoy-rossiyskoy-podlodke-udalos-potopit-amerikanskiy-atomnyy-raketonosec.html

    And then read this
    1. Nestorych
      Nestorych 21 November 2019 09: 26 New
      +5
      And what remains? Promise, proud and build more Soviet submarines.)))
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 21 November 2019 10: 52 New
      +7
      Quote: Deck
      Well, we were so proud of the Black Hole.

      Once we were proud of the entire Navy of the USSR.
  5. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 21 November 2019 06: 47 New
    +4
    Thank you Roman! A sad impression ...
    VNEU on new submarines, models of promising destroyers, engines on new aircraft, the parade procession of the Coalition and T-14 ... You emphasized the termination of funding for "attempts to create", and I found the saying:
    According to Viktor Murakhovsky, in order to enter its own serial production of air-independent power plants and massively put them on submarines, it is necessary to form a gigantic scientific and technical reserve for creating fuel cells that will power the submarine fleet electric motors. As a cheaper and simpler alternative, he considers the development of promising lithium-polymer batteries operating on a single "recharge" much longer than the analogues available at the Navy today. “However, their production, apparently, will have to start from scratch, because in the West no one will sell us such technologies. And if he sells, then one day he may simply cut off supplies, ”the expert added.

    This is what the "modest charm of the Russian bourgeoisie" led us to. It turns out that we have the right to expect only a performance of the appearance, and the internal content, as it turned out, for the most part depends on the location of those who have mastered such technologies.
    What can you say?
    For lack of a stamp - they write in simple!

    hi
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 21 November 2019 10: 55 New
      +3
      Quote: ROSS 42
      It turns out that we have the right to expect only a performance of the appearance, and the internal content, as it turned out, for the most part depends on the location of those who have mastered such technologies.

      Foreign technology, this is not your weapon.
  6. letinant
    letinant 21 November 2019 06: 48 New
    +11
    I don’t understand what is in this article, does the author think about the Baltic Fleet or about an air-independent power plant? If about the fleet with its theater of operations, batteries for the eyes. If so, then another question. The task of diesel-electric submarines is completely different, they are not oceanic, no, they can undoubtedly go out into the ocean, plow its open spaces and even get lost in the background of noises and have a good night's smoke. But these are positional boats. Therefore, their use is different from nuclear submarines, but nuclear submarines, the ocean, is their environment. Germany builds projects 212 and 412 from the fact that it cannot have nuclear submarines, Japan is the same. Other countries who can have nuclear submarines, who cannot afford nuclear boats have diesel-electric submarines. By the way, I read an article about project 212, they have problems with tanks for liquid oxygen, they quickly oxidize and begin to flow (explosive), so they use 212 as ordinary diesel-electric submarines, the Germans write that they have enough underwater passage on batteries.
    1. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 21 November 2019 11: 43 New
      +3
      Quote: letinant
      This is what I did not understand in this article, the author thinks about

      You understood everything perfectly. And the author (very competent, decent and honest - from “I have the honor”) perfectly painted everything “under Khokhloma”:
      According to the United Shipbuilding Corporation, the design of such a wonderful Kalina was assigned to 2015. Pledge it at the Admiralty Shipyards in 2018. But not laid so far.
      And do not lay. VNEU ...

      But if it is not possible to build modern submarines, you need to somehow get out of the situation and build what is possible. Even if it’s an old Varshavyanka with Caliber.


      With these two quotes, he regrets that the corporation is looking for excuses and does not fulfill promises, citing the absence of one or the other, but it would be necessary to “at least” build what they can.
      But whether it will be the Husky nuclear submarines or what other Laiks with VNEU, or the diesel Varshavyanka, or diesel-battery, is another question.
      The idea of ​​the article is transparent, and it’s simply impossible to not see it from the eyes that are blocked by “cunning plans, breakthroughs and excuses”:
      STRENGTHEN THE POWER OF THE NAVY BY SHIPS, NOT BY UNDERWRITINGS AND LAYOUTS!
      1. letinant
        letinant 21 November 2019 12: 12 New
        +3
        You just stomp like little children with legs and yelling, I WANT I WANT I WANT !!! Look at the Baltic and ask yourself the question, why is there ANSU ?! To get involved? Everyone has and we have. A more promising option is batteries with a larger capacity. The Japanese made a couple of boats with VNSU and then launched a series with lithium-ion batteries. And by the way, you have not read the first line in my text. I asked a question: what does the author write about the state of the Baltic Fleet or about the Air Independent Power Plant? These are two different topics. If about VNSU, then the topic is undeniably interesting, but the article is considered superficially. By type they have and we do not, without details, without comparing PROs and CONS. If for the Baltic Fleet, then yes, this is a sore point in the composition of the ship. But in wartime there everything is so mined that from coast to coast it will be possible to go through mines and feet will remain dry. GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR, an example. It will not work to break through as in the Second World War, the mines are different.
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 21 November 2019 13: 03 New
          +3
          Quote: letinant
          You just stomp like little children with legs and yelling, I WANT I WANT I WANT !!!

          Are you trying to blame me now, is it (in your opinion) the idea to equip the BF with submarines? You somehow managed to skip past your eyes:
          The other day TASS reported citing its sources in the Ministry of Defense and USCthat there, in the bowels of the departments, the issue of building another series of Varshavyanka class submarines is being considered.
          For the Baltic ...
          The question arises: is it zrad or overdrive?
          It seems like a breakthrough.
          Boats, especially submarines, as I have said more than once, are excellent. We can’t build aircraft carriers and cruisers, we need to rivet the submarines in such quantities that the whole world with a shudder looks at the ocean surface in case of something. For it is from there that HE, the Day of Judgment, the Apocalypse, or simply multi-megaton greetings to our enemies will come.
          So, for the Baltic Fleet they will build Varshavyanka. Well, not the newest project, after all 70s of the last century, began to build from the 90s ...

          That is, the decision to build was not made by Roman Skomorokhov, and, moreover, not by me ... And the idea of ​​the article was chewed to you:
          STRENGTHEN THE POWER OF THE NAVY BY SHIPS, NOT BY UNDERWRITINGS AND LAYOUTS!
          but you are trying to make everything out of adult capricious boys ... stop
          It’s not better for yourself ...
          1. letinant
            letinant 21 November 2019 13: 09 New
            0
            You can’t read at all ?! I just asked what this article was about, about the quantitative composition of the Baltic Fleet or about the technology of the VNSU (air-independent power plant).
        2. kepmor
          kepmor 21 November 2019 13: 53 New
          +1
          ... in wartime, everything is so mined there that from coast to coast it will be possible to go through mines and feet will remain dry ...
          This is really a masterpiece !!!!
          Alexei, if you think that the delivery of mines from arsenals to carriers, the exit (take-off) of carriers to mine productions with modern methods and means of reconnaissance and surveillance can be carried out secretly, then you are a little mistaken ...
          let it be known to you that the installation of minefields (both in our territorial waters and in the economic zone) has long been a fact of aggression for our General Staff ... with all the ensuing consequences ...
          about VNSU ... to open the underwater situation with a probability of at least 0,7 even in the southern part of the Baltic, NATO will be very stressful ... it will require a huge outfit of forces and means ... and submarines without VNSU will simply be a "gift" for them ... the need for ventilation and recharging the batteries of the same Warsaw plus or minus 2 days ...
          figuratively ... the fleet is a Gorynych snake with 3 heads - NK, PL and aviation ... no other is given ...
          1. letinant
            letinant 21 November 2019 14: 44 New
            -3
            You don’t understand anything. It's a pity.
          2. mmaxx
            mmaxx 22 November 2019 03: 46 New
            0
            In the war, the Germans directly bombed Kronstadt from planes. And it turned out unexpectedly.
  7. parusnik
    parusnik 21 November 2019 07: 05 New
    +5
    So what? But we have the 5th economy in the world ... laughing The largest exporter of grain, as well as oil and gas, we are ahead of the rest, etc. .. We need to look for positive things, but you are talking about submarines ... We will overcome ... Most importantly, there are no interruptions in toilet paper ... laughing
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 21 November 2019 07: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: parusnik
      We will overcome ... The main thing is that there is no interruption in toilet paper.

      Yeah, if sho, then the Norwegians will get ... mats ....
  8. jonht
    jonht 21 November 2019 07: 12 New
    +8
    The controversial article turned out ....
    If about the composition of the Batflot, I completely agree, it is necessary to strengthen.
    If about VNEU, then here it is necessary to analyze and analyze all types of these VNEU. The Germans have problems with oxygen, the Swedes with hydrogen, and ours generally swung at the decomposition of salary into these components. The same Japanese abandoned the stringer engines and build the last boats on lithium-ion batteries.
    There is no topic on the analysis article, only sighs about VNEU. hi
    1. Serg4545
      Serg4545 21 November 2019 07: 30 New
      +4
      // If about VNEU, then here it is necessary to analyze and analyze all types of these VNEU. //

      I agree!
      The author writes as if VNEU works perfectly. But this is not so.
  9. novel66
    novel66 21 November 2019 07: 24 New
    +2
    and VNEU can not be stupidly somewhere to buy nito? well, or compromise? they stole a whole nuclear project in their own and then ...
    1. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 21 November 2019 09: 21 New
      +6
      Everything can be reduced. Moreover, 100% that has long been communized, only the technologies that the Swedes, Germans and Japanese have are not even yesterday.
      Obtaining oxygen and hydrogen on the stream, immediately before “pouring” them into the combustion chamber, is already an outdated idea. Although, with her another 20-30 years it will be possible to "live"
      The question is direct, silent and cheap electricity from chemical. reactions. An engine without burning and noise is the main goal.
      A miniature nuclear reactor seems to already exist, but it is not always applicable (the same Montreux restricts us with nuclear submarines in the Black Sea). The matter is the chemical converter of matter into electricity. And there may be some more, Krishna knows him ...
    2. garri-lin
      garri-lin 21 November 2019 20: 32 New
      0
      Under the name of VNEU, there is a huge assortment of a wide variety of technologies.
      1. Vlad.by
        Vlad.by 21 November 2019 23: 35 New
        0
        I know four. Are you bigger?
        1. garri-lin
          garri-lin 22 November 2019 09: 02 New
          0
          If we consider those that are recognized as not promising, as well as those technologies that are worked out only theoretically, there will be more of them.
    3. Private-K
      Private-K 25 November 2019 13: 46 New
      0
      the whole nuclear project was stolen in their

      Nobody penned him. The British themselves handed over to the USSR, using the linden case with the "Cambridge Five" (tm), some of their achievements (and the ones they spied on Amers) that saved the USSR time and resources.
  10. Amateur
    Amateur 21 November 2019 07: 32 New
    +3
    During the war, I.V. Travkin, the commander of the Baltic K-52, noted that it was necessary to use such large boats at depths of more than 40 meters, since even at a 40-meter depth, a 97-meter boat could simply hit his nose in the ground, while her feed towered above the water [

    Series "K"
    Surface displacement 1490 t
    Underwater displacement 2104 t
    The greatest length (on KVL) 97,7 m
    The width of the body naib. 7,4 m
    Average draft (on design waterline) 4,04 m

    877ECM Halibut
    Surface displacement 2300 t
    Underwater displacement 3040 t
    The greatest length (on design waterline) 72,6 (subsequently 73,8) m
    The width of the body naib. 9,9 m
    Average draft (on waterline) 6,8 m

    Is the Baltic "uglubili" compared with the times of the Second World War?
  11. rocket757
    rocket757 21 November 2019 07: 54 New
    +2
    Best the enemy of the good! But endlessly on this "goat" do not ride, it's time to change, i.e. take care of the future.
  12. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 21 November 2019 08: 06 New
    0
    Never a sailor, therefore, did not know that we had such a sadness with an underwater fleet. Thanks to the author.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 21 November 2019 08: 46 New
      -6
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      we have such a sadness with the submarine fleet

      Everything is fine with the submarine fleet - the author has glitches, but they had, are and will still have flaws - only the one who knocks the keys does not have them. Below is a picture of the launch of calibers from a submarine in the Mediterranean. NATO did not expect this.



      By the way. The Duma in the second reading is sawing the country's budget. Who is the thread in the know how much they allocated for defense? More or less than last year?
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 21 November 2019 08: 53 New
        +2
        Was it about the Baltic or the Mediterranean?
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 21 November 2019 09: 08 New
          -4
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          Was it about the Baltic or the Mediterranean?

          Where did it come from, where was it built?

          From an Internet vskidku:

          "In 2014, 2015 and 2016 years at the Northern Machine-Building Enterprise (Severodvinsk) four new submarines of the Borey-A type were laid. The ships with the names “Prince Oleg”, “Generalissimo Suvorov”, “Emperor Alexander III” and “Prince Pozharsky” are currently at different stages of construction, and it will take a lot of time to complete the necessary work. However, the planned delivery dates for these ships are just around the corner. "

          "In July 2017, the Admiralty Shipyards shipyard (St. Petersburg) laid the first two submarines of the new series. They received the names "Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky" and "Volkhov." The production of Varshavyanka has long been established, which will allow us to fulfill new orders in the very near future. Launching, testing and delivery of submarines to the customer will take place in 2019-20 years. By this time, the new 636.3 diesel-electric submarines, also intended for the Pacific Fleet, will be on the stocks. "

          "The next step in the field of nuclear submarine fleet will be the fifth-generation multipurpose submarine project, known as the Husky. This project is being developed at the Malachite St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau. At the moment, the promising project remains at the preliminary development stage, but already in the near future, the appearance of the future submarine should be completed. "

          More:
          https://army-news.ru/2018/03/novye-podlodki-dlya-vmf-rossii-na-stapelyax-i-v-planax/
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 21 November 2019 12: 46 New
            0
            Quote: Boris55
            “In 2014, 2015 and 2016, four new submarines of the Borey-A type were laid at the Northern Machine-Building Enterprise (Severodvinsk). Ships with the names“ Prince Oleg ”,“ Generalissimus Suvorov ”,“ Emperor Alexander III ”and“ Prince Pozharsky "is currently at different stages of construction, and it will take a lot of time to complete the necessary work. Nevertheless, the planned deadlines for the delivery of these ships are just around the corner."

            And why not call the new class of submarines "Behind the Vladimir Mountains", and start the successful laying and construction of non-tax ones around the world in 2025 in the cities of the Far Eastern province of Caner. sad
            1. New Year day
              New Year day 21 November 2019 13: 48 New
              +1
              Quote: Stroporez
              And why not name the new class of submarines "Beyond the Vladimir Mountains"

              better "Vladimir Central", and the crew begin to land immediately
  13. BAI
    BAI 21 November 2019 09: 00 New
    +12
    But why bother with submarines in the Baltic? As the war showed, the Baltic Fleet is elementarily locked in the Gulf of Finland and does not go anywhere. If something has changed now, it’s only for the worse.
    1. evgic
      evgic 21 November 2019 10: 00 New
      +1
      That's right, right. In this puddle with dumplings, you can at least somehow operate the forces of the fleet (any) only relying on the bases of Kaliningrad, Riga and Turku. In all other cases, the fleet will not go beyond the bases and the submarines too. One base in Kaliningrad will not do the weather, although of course it gives a lot of pleasant sensations to our partners, it is, in principle, quite easy to block. In the modern conditions, a fleet in the Baltic is generally needed to protect bases, since strikes both on the shore and on ships are much more effective from the air, and given the small size of the sea, even from their territorial waters
    2. New Year day
      New Year day 21 November 2019 13: 50 New
      +2
      Quote: BAI
      Baltic Fleet is elementarily locked in the Gulf of Finland and does not go anywhere.

      so they went out from Peter. Baltiysk is at sea
  14. Xnumx vis
    Xnumx vis 21 November 2019 09: 05 New
    -8
    After reading the first paragraph of the article, it became clear who the author is. It seems everything is correct, but it smells ...
    1. Nestorych
      Nestorych 21 November 2019 09: 29 New
      +7
      So really sonny smells, otherwise they are used to miasms of propaganda.))))
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 21 November 2019 11: 32 New
        +3
        Quote: Nestorych
        So really sonny smells, otherwise they are used to miasms of propaganda.))))

        It smells like demagoguery. For the reasoning about which submarines we need at the DKBF and how bad we have with them, the main thing is lost - why do all the submarines in the Baltic?
        The fate of the inland sea fleets is decided on land and in the air. The Second World War showed quite well what will happen to such a fleet. Now the situation in terms of basing is even worse - the DKBF is driven into the Gulf of Finland and the Kaliningrad exclave. From Kronstadt to the nearest NATO country - 150 km. From Baltiysk - generally less than 30 km. Between these two bases on one shore are NATO countries, on the other are sympathizers of NATO.
        How are we going to fight at sea in this situation? And what goals will the submarines have in such a war?
        1. Vlad.by
          Vlad.by 21 November 2019 13: 01 New
          +3
          absolutely agree!
          While there was no Ball, Bastion, Caliber and Onyx, coupled with the Su35 and Tu-22 - you could still think that underwater war in the Baltic is possible.
          But now what can a submarine do because a plane or a coastal complex cannot be in this “puddle”?
          - Anti-submarine defense? - it’s easier to spread a network of gyrophones and not one, for the same money as a series of three submarines.
          Moreover, during the exploration and construction of the joint venture and joint venture 2, it was possible to imperceptibly poke the entire bottom of the Baltic Sea with sensors. Although, perhaps they poked))
          - Fighting vehicles? So, over-the-horizon radars provide sufficient accuracy for surface targets for the control center of anti-ship missiles. And with the advent of Zircon in general, the mouse will not slip in the Baltic if something happens.
          - Attacks on ground targets? This is generally from the area of ​​"from a gun on sparrows." Why sneak up to Hamburg to strike with Caliber with the risk of being sunk at 99% if a couple of missile volleys solves the same problem?
      2. Xnumx vis
        Xnumx vis 21 November 2019 13: 34 New
        -4
        Quote: Nestorych
        So really sonny smells, otherwise they are used to miasms of propaganda.))))

        Special thanks for Sonka! laughing Rejuvenated by 40 years old! And the miasma of propaganda from this "scandalous article" is heard a mile away!
  15. Felix Chuykov
    Felix Chuykov 21 November 2019 09: 30 New
    +5
    A star named Sun

    What a pity that the truth is completely forgotten:
    Capitalism is a war for markets.
    Spin in the dark - to those who have lost their way
    While in power - private capital.

    Felix Chuykov

    November 21 2019 years
  16. AnderS
    AnderS 21 November 2019 09: 50 New
    +2
    But nothing works out for us. Despite the mountains spent in various design bureaus of money. And here the question arises of the competence of the employees of TsKB Rubin, which consumes money with enviable regularity, spewing mountains of promises in response.

    And VNEU is still there ... Despite many peppy statements for the press of Russian designers at the annual forum of promises “Army- ...” Tomorrow, the maximum, the day after tomorrow everything will be!
    Og ... And yet the authorities, the press and other figures will be excited to talk about the terrible Stalinist "sharashka" where innocently convicted designers and engineers forged weapons in "slave" conditions ... It's time to take a useful idea into service ... Ah , yes, as I forgot, we are "not 37 years old" ... Well then, do not be surprised that billions are pumped into the development of weapons, and there is no result. After all, the developers are not responsible for their words and it seems that there is no one to ask for any money from them. So we are waiting for the next projects of not having analogues in the world of boats / planes / tanks of the fifth or sixth seventh (underline necessary) generations and new billions for their “development”.
    1. MrFox
      MrFox 27 November 2019 12: 34 New
      0
      The developers look at the stolen billions and think - but do we all need it, with a salary of 30 ty?
  17. dgonni
    dgonni 21 November 2019 10: 05 New
    0
    The author is still right somewhere. Without Vneu, an ersatz is obtained. And given the tests together with the amers on the teachings of Deutsche submarines. So generally sadness is sadness.
  18. Berkut24
    Berkut24 21 November 2019 10: 49 New
    +5
    In general, the submarines for the Baltic - the question is much more complicated than it seems. If you look at the map, the field of activity for them is so-so. The depth is not great (average - 51m), a huge number of narrow passages, islands.
    In the event of a conflict with NATO, not only a submarine, but any other ship will not come out of the Leningrad Naval Base. Between the coasts of Finland and Estonia only 40 km. To slip through such a narrow throat unnoticed is unrealistic.
    Between the coast of Lithuania and the extreme point of Poland - 150 km. And this is without taking into account the territorial waters of NATO countries. Those. jump out inconspicuous from the Kaliningrad region will also not be allowed. Then there is another narrowing and “trifles” with islands that end with the Danish Straits, where you certainly can’t hide. Actually, Varshavyanka will reach Copenhagen in 4 days in XNUMX days.
    In this regard, the question arises - is it necessary to have submarines with VNEU in such a close pool where everything is audible along and across and there are almost no neutral waters? And how much do they need submarines in the background of the sad experience of the Second World War, when they pulled the nets and mined the exits from the bases during the day? But then we had bases throughout the Baltic. How many boats have we lost in minefields? And now there are only 2 bases that cannot support each other in any way.
    Maybe that's why the Navy command focuses on other classes of ships, considering the submarine a weak argument in this region?
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 21 November 2019 11: 38 New
      +2
      Quote: Berkut24
      In the event of a conflict with NATO, not only a submarine, but any other ship will not come out of the Leningrad Naval Base. Between the coasts of Finland and Estonia only 40 km. To slip through such a narrow throat unnoticed is unrealistic.

      Yeah ... that is, Kronstadt as a base for submarines is not suitable.
      Remains Baltiysk. From Braniewo to Baltiysk - 30 km. That is, the second Navy DKBF covered even with barrel artillery.
      Against this background, the wise discussions about submarines as part of the DCBF look a little ... strange.
    2. ABM
      ABM 21 November 2019 11: 52 New
      -1
      so who will mine now? Someone! no, well, theoretically, it’s possible to remake someone into mine-blockers in six months, but how will they put mines? in front of our fleet? frankly speaking, I don’t know about submarines, you can put a couple of mines - well, this is nonsense. From airplanes? and our air defense still need to crush! and fighter aircraft knock out
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 21 November 2019 12: 02 New
        0
        Quote: ABM
        in front of our fleet?

        300-350 km from Kronstadt - in the throat of the Gulf of Finland. You don’t even have to invent anything - everything has already been worked out in the Second World War.
        Quote: ABM
        no, well, theoretically, it’s possible to remake someone in a mine layer in six months

        The same Finns have special building minzags.
      2. Berkut24
        Berkut24 21 November 2019 12: 56 New
        0
        so who will mine now? Someone!

        German mining of the Baltic Sea began 4 days before the attack. Mined mainly from civilian courts. On June 22, 1941, the BF command discovered that all exits from the ports, as well as all the transitions from base to base, were mined. And a short transition from Tallinn to Kronshtadt cost the life of a third of the total payroll of the Baltic Fleet.
  19. karabass
    karabass 21 November 2019 11: 13 New
    0
    ehe-heh comrades, hehe, ehehehehehehehehe! You do not want to look at the root! YOU DO NOT WANT!!! Archives do not see the most important problem under your nose! Why is there a boat - so nonsense, a trifle. Think ... ugh! It is not just a problem that is being drawn here - TROUBLE! Well, there are boats, there are no boats, what is essentially the difference?
    You deserved, staff sailors, what to do, did not think ?! That's it! Part headquarters, rear headquarters, division headquarters! this is not a trifle navy for you - these are the best sailors! Then where? and? Think!
  20. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 21 November 2019 11: 27 New
    +1
    All is well, but again the duty question:

    Do you really need submarines in the Baltic?

    We open the card. "If something happens," the only entrance to the Gulf of Finland is shot by our probable friends almost with barrel artillery, that is, there will be no shipping there.

    So what is the task of boats? What will they do that, which the coastal anti-ship missiles and coastal aviation will not do?
    1. evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru
      evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru 24 November 2019 22: 28 New
      -1
      But in the “coastal batteries” and in the “coastal aviation”, things are better than the submarines of the Baltic Fleet? T.N. ,, capitalism ,, brought the country to Russia ,, to the handle ,,. A mess in the rocket industry (Eastern, Rogozin & Co. ..), stagnation in the aircraft industry - the planes of the 80s - the Tu-22M3 are reanimating, discussing the possibility of putting the 60-year-old Be-12s back on line. ..unite the Stalinist aviation design bureaus (and where is your notorious ,, competition ,,,), the Stalinist Tu-95 so far, the beauty and pride, of VKS strategists.
      In the USSR, the Armata project would be one of many prominent projects ... What to make noise about, what to be especially proud of? At the same time - T-64 and T - 80 ... Both that and another - r about r in in domestic (and world) tank building. Machines are serial and MASS, and not just for parades and polygons of the research institute. Almost annual advanced modifications ... So it was! This is how the state of affairs on the territory of the self-sufficient country of Russia should be.
      ,, Kuzya ,, the whole world has clearly demonstrated the state of affairs in the surface fleet of the Republic of Kazakhstan (,, Capitalist Russia ,,). The way ,, worn, menedzers with outdated and primitive ,, Varshavyanki ,, shows the state of affairs among submariners.
      How can not be a full-fledged submarine division in the Baltic? Do you need other boats, of a smaller displacement and with a technical characteristics for the first half of the XNUMXst century? Do it! ... Who's stopping the dancers? Money from ,, effective managers, ”is enough (tons of TFR are taken out by tons) ... ...
      Where are things good in the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan? Would anyone tell? The young man who shot dead 8 colleagues served in the unit, including carried out the protection of special items ...
      1. Sancho_SP
        Sancho_SP 25 November 2019 06: 31 New
        0
        Things are not good everywhere. But the relative cost of different solutions remains different in such conditions.

        And submarines, as carriers of weapons, are clearly much more expensive than coastal installations.
  21. begemot20091
    begemot20091 21 November 2019 11: 59 New
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    How are we going to fight at sea in this situation? And what goals will the submarines have in such a war?

    Did you really fight? Have you ever seen a war? Enough of the iron. At the bottom of the Baltic metal-the new Trans-Siberian can be built. Improve what is. For 200 years forward harvested. Will we survive?
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 21 November 2019 12: 04 New
      0
      Quote: begemot20091
      Did you really fight? Have you ever seen a war? Enough iron already

      The question of “fighting” related to the need to build new submarines for the DCBF. Why build for the fleet what it can only use as a one-time launcher for the Caliber?
  22. ABM
    ABM 21 November 2019 12: 04 New
    0
    [quote = Alexey RA] [quote = ABM] in front of our fleet? [/ quote]
    300-350 km from Kronstadt - in the throat of the Gulf of Finland. You don’t even have to invent anything - everything has already been worked out in the Second World War.
    [quote = ABM] no, well, theoretically, it’s possible to remake someone into mine loaders in six months [/ quote]
    The same Finns have minzags of special construction. [/ Qu

    Finland is a neutral country! and even one plane or rocket is enough for such a staging to end with a colossal explosion of the ammunition of mine-layers. Still on the radar screen
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 21 November 2019 13: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: ABM
      Finland is a neutral country!

      Ja, ja ... until someone offers more. smile
      Neutrality even during WWII was a meaningless status - the neutrality of a country was determined solely by operational considerations. If the territory of a neutral country is needed by one of the participants in the war, then it will either be occupied or they will buy a passage (as with the Swedes). The occupation of the same neutral Norway was planned by the Germans and the British - but Standartenfuhrer managed before. smile
      Quote: ABM
      and even one plane or rocket is enough for such a staging to end with a colossal explosion of the ammunition of mine-layers. Still on the radar screen

      Which of our radars are scanning the Gulf of Finland?
      On your radar screen, at best, is the point going from Porkkala to Tallinn. Judging by the magnitude of the impulse and the speed of movement - this is grabbing some kind of boat. Your actions?
  23. selivan1
    selivan1 21 November 2019 12: 13 New
    +4
    Admiralty shipyards are jammed, shipyards in Komsomolsk-on-Amur too ... but they forgot about Krasnoye Sormovo ?! The legendary Nizhny Novgorod plant, which was the first to build submarines in Russia !!! And he built them almost 300 pieces of all types, including 29 atomic ones, and Varshavyanka a myriad of them (China built the last in 1992m)! And now the plant is riveting only tankers and auxiliary vessels ... Incidentally, on Krasnoye Sormovo they still dream of reviving the production of submarines, and there is everything for this: personnel, school, desire. You can read how sormovichi can work in open sources: the plant was not allowed to die in the 90s, tankers rivets in batches without delay, and recently they handed over the first cruise ship in Russia's history that has already passed sea trials. Despite the fact that the Lotus plant in Astrakhan laid the same airliner earlier - back in 2016 (Sormovo in 2017), and still cannot build it. And for Nizhny Novgorod, this was actually a new challenge, a new project (before that the factory had never built cruise ships) - they mastered it and handed it over in two years - and you say they cannot build ships with us! Tell the Sormovich about it! Give an order, set a task - the Sormovichs will quickly remember the past - they will not get used to it, I’m sure that in two or three years six Varshavyanki will already plow the Baltic!
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 21 November 2019 13: 36 New
      +1
      Quote: selivan1
      Tell the Sormovich about it! Give an order, set a task - the Sormovichs will quickly remember the past - they will not get used to it, I’m sure that in two or three years six Varshavyanki will already plow the Baltic!

      How to withdraw submarines from the Volga? In the transport dock to the Sea of ​​Azov, further to the Black Sea and through the Straits?
      Directly to the Baltic Sea via inland waterways it will be extremely difficult to get out - compared to Soviet times, everything has become shallow.
      1. selivan1
        selivan1 30 November 2019 15: 35 New
        0
        They will take it out if necessary, and transport it by land if they want: now there are reactors for refineries of 1 thousand tons and 50 meters long by land transported by tractors. In any case, it will be more profitable, faster and cheaper than 15 years to wait for the Admiralty and Komsomol shipyards to free themselves and build the same submarines, but they don’t like to build quickly
  24. 78bor1973
    78bor1973 21 November 2019 13: 29 New
    +1
    Submarines in the Baltic are essentially not particularly in fire order and are needed, the Baltics are all visible from the plane and there is nowhere to hide, by the way, given the autonomy of these VNEU boats, they are not particularly needed, and submarines do not need to float to recharge, just raise the RPD.
  25. O. Bender
    O. Bender 21 November 2019 13: 41 New
    0
    Personally, he has never been a sailor, much less a submarine. But it seems to me that in the Baltic with its shallow waters you won’t be able to crawl a submarine at all. I remembered a story, specifically the Second World War, when I was locked at bases and ports, and single submarines were able to go to the bz, and then the probability of death is almost 100%. Of course, naval artillery bit the Germans great, but the submarines were successful mediocre, so to speak. The Baltic is small, small, there is no operational space, if modern means are available, the detection and destruction of the submarine the task is not an arduous one. The prospects of submarine warfare for submarine forces are sad. The same German Polish and so on will be discovered and be a bul .. And so one of our boat is harder to find than 16. laughing
  26. Eugene (Eugene)
    Eugene (Eugene) 21 November 2019 13: 51 New
    +1
    Roman, you have correctly stated the essence of the problem (submarine fleet - forces in the Baltic).
    With good logistics, the Baltic Fleet needs at least 15 submarines.

    Like it or not, the Baltic Fleet is in blockade, the price of betrayal of Yeltsin and Gorbachev, erroneous performance (personal revenge on Stalin, amnesty of “heroes”) of Khrushchev in 1956 at the XX Congress of the CPSU with a report, all this and other factors led to a difficult situation Let’s recall the Baltic, the war of Ivan the Terrible for the Baltic (Livonian war of 1558-1583 - a series of conflicts of the 1569th century, in which the Livonian Confederation, the Russian Empire, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (from XNUMX - the Commonwealth), the Swedish and Danish kingdoms The fighting was carried out mainly on the territory of modern Estonia, Latvia, Belarus and North-West Russia. etc.). Similarly, the "partners" acted with the Balkan Slavs, and the conclusion suggests itself - in the near future, a fight for the Baltic is inevitable .
    Tasks of partners - cutting Kaliningrad from Russia. Russia (MO) is strengthening its air defense group - this is the necessary cover for bases (Kaliningrad Oblast, approaches to Peter). Forced massive missile strike and boat, boats (which are not) are destroyed. Lack of modern minesweepers, partners, given this, will guess in advance to set mines on important sites.

    Roman, you sound the alarm correctly, “ring the bells”, but considering the speed with which ships are being built for our Navy (the past - the truth shows that again the fleet does not have time to replenish modern ships before the war, the government at least has time to put things in order on land, there are improvements - this is indisputable (in certain areas), and sailors (ship states) need to get used to the idea that it will be time to put on their visors, put white t-shirts in the locker, put on vests and who survived - forward to the land front, getting used to fighting in urban conditions, in a wooded area), then obviously we do not have time.

    The Chinese are already making ship visits there (in the Baltic), the Chinese group VOG-S (military, organized group-building) is on the territory of the "republic" Belarus, there are already hundreds, hundreds of thousands of them are building a "center" near Minsk, "and then they change clothes and walk on the square of Minsk." And to Kaliningrad a stone's throw. They include the Baltic in their area of ​​interest, too.

    I would like to believe that the construction of a gas pipe will set aside time in order to have time to prepare forces to eliminate (eliminate) internal and external threats.
    1. Eugene (Eugene)
      Eugene (Eugene) 21 November 2019 13: 58 New
      0
      If we have time.
  27. ABM
    ABM 21 November 2019 13: 55 New
    -1
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Which of our radars are scanning the Gulf of Finland?
    On your radar screen, at best, is the point going from Porkkala to Tallinn. Judging by the magnitude of the impulse and the speed of movement - this is grabbing some kind of boat. Your actions?


    a mine boat will not expose more than three pieces. Do you mean wartime or peacetime? In wartime, the noticeable nature, apparently. What to guess? Finland does not have Mannerheim line now! As there is no Mannerheim himself! Do you think they want to receive a pension in rubles? this is the worst threat after a nuclear bombing;)
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 21 November 2019 17: 58 New
      -1
      Quote: ABM
      a mine boat will not expose more than three pieces.

      So this is a mark on the screen as from a boat. But in fact, this inconspicuous mine layer puts mines. smile
      Quote: ABM
      Finland does not have Mannerheim line now! As there is no Mannerheim himself! Do you think they want to receive a pension in rubles?

      That is why they will join NATO - for there will be no border neutrals in the European war, and if the West does not come, the Russians will break in.
  28. Syroitel_nik
    Syroitel_nik 21 November 2019 18: 48 New
    0
    Quote: Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
    Of course, we live in one country. Take, for example, the B-380 Gorky Komsomolets, which, since 1991, has been listed as being repaired in the floating dock PD-16 in the South Bay near Sevastopol. In 2005, the submarine was transferred to 247 as a separate submarine division, and three years later unofficially called "Holy Prince George." 2009 million rubles were spent on its repair at 800, and now they have decided to dispose of it with the dock.

    In a state of blockade of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation by Ukraine, until 2014 it was not very possible to expect progress in those days. Crimea has been a part of Russia since 2014 and it is necessary to look from this position.
  29. Captain45
    Captain45 21 November 2019 19: 54 New
    +1
    “Having noticed the periscope in the port’s water area, tie it with a cable loop and tow the boat to the shore for the periscope. It would be impossible to chop the periscope with an ax mercilessly, for which there are axes in boats.” (C)
    From the order to combat Japanese submarines in the port of Vladivostok, 1904 year. S.Kolbasiev "Turning all of a sudden." Not far gone for a hundred-odd years.
  30. ABM
    ABM 21 November 2019 22: 16 New
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: ABM
    a mine boat will not expose more than three pieces.

    So this is a mark on the screen as from a boat. But in fact, this inconspicuous mine layer puts mines. smile
    Quote: ABM
    Finland does not have Mannerheim line now! As there is no Mannerheim himself! Do you think they want to receive a pension in rubles?

    That is why they will join NATO - for there will be no border neutrals in the European war, and if the West does not come, the Russians will break in.


    no no! they carefully analyzed the experience of Sweden, Switzerland and Liechtenstein especially! I think they will never step on the warpath! Even our tourists from St. Petersburg are able to capture Finland, if they are told that it is possible to take goods in their supermarkets for free! issue machines from the mobilization reserve
  31. ABM
    ABM 21 November 2019 22: 22 New
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: ABM
    a mine boat will not expose more than three pieces.

    So this is a mark on the screen as from a boat. But in fact, this inconspicuous mine layer puts mines. smile
    Quote: ABM
    Finland does not have Mannerheim line now! As there is no Mannerheim himself! Do you think they want to receive a pension in rubles?

    That is why they will join NATO - for there will be no border neutrals in the European war, and if the West does not come, the Russians will break in.


    in general, the idea that I’ll have to fight with the whole world around me, for anyone, seems a little destructive! well, they cannot all become suicides at once! We have the most tactical nuclear weapons in the world (I just don’t tell anyone in secret) - and so, this collective suicide almost doesn’t need anyone from the peoples of developed countries - we don’t care, "we didn’t live well, ... and start "- and then they’ll be upset for sure!
  32. mikle1999
    mikle1999 21 November 2019 23: 57 New
    0
    The author has a strange idea that you need to equalize in capabilities with the "potential" in conventional weapons. That for Russia with its scanty economy, ruined education (read the lack of engineering personnel in the foreseeable future) and technological lag is an absolutely impossible task. One can argue whether such a task was elevated for the USSR, or he died in the process of rising.
    So there is only one way out - to rely on the strategic forces of nuclear deterrence and not bring the matter to war, in which you have to check whether these forces are working or not. And trying to compete with a superior opponent is the path to unleashing the navel and repeating the (demon) glorious fate of the USSR.
  33. mmaxx
    mmaxx 22 November 2019 02: 56 New
    0
    Given the fact that we do not own the Baltic coast, no meaning is seen in the Baltic submarines.
  34. Chaldon48
    Chaldon48 22 November 2019 17: 33 New
    0
    Before pouring something somewhere, it would not be bad to properly inspect the container and those who have already sucked on it.
  35. Cyrus
    Cyrus 24 November 2019 19: 23 New
    0
    I read and goof, I have not seen such a number of vratny, stupid comments for a long time. One foolish person suggests that you use the rockets in Hamburg to be crazy, well, what can I say “kill against the wall” and the air in the country will become cleaner. The second one is laughing like a horse and I’m sure that nothing will happen, one relief is that when he begins to live on the battlefield for 5-10 minutes maximum.
    You are right, the author is even more than right now, we are absolutely not ready for either a big war or a small “ala 08.08.2008”, and there are plenty of customers in the Baltic. The lemmings sitting on the site are not aware that the purpose of a military operation may not be so much military as Political defeat, leading to severe economic and political consequences, these stupid people, because of their limitations and stupidity, are not able to understand that nuclear weapons are not a panacea, for them everything you won’t dismiss, especially when you have only 1500 warheads for everything, that far from the ocean, far from being fools, pragmatists who have a clear and understandable goal in front of them have only to choose the means and they will pick it up sooner or later ...
  36. ABM
    ABM 29 November 2019 11: 37 New
    0
    Quote: Cyrus
    I read and goof, I have not seen such a number of vratny, stupid comments for a long time. One foolish person suggests that you use the rockets in Hamburg to be crazy, well, what can I say “kill against the wall” and the air in the country will become cleaner. The second one is laughing like a horse and I’m sure that nothing will happen, one relief is that when he begins to live on the battlefield for 5-10 minutes maximum.
    You are right, the author is even more than right now, we are absolutely not ready for either a big war or a small “ala 08.08.2008”, and there are plenty of customers in the Baltic. The lemmings sitting on the site are not aware that the purpose of a military operation may not be so much military as Political defeat, leading to severe economic and political consequences, these stupid people, because of their limitations and stupidity, are not able to understand that nuclear weapons are not a panacea, for them everything you won’t dismiss, especially when you have only 1500 warheads for everything, that far from the ocean, far from being fools, pragmatists who have a clear and understandable goal in front of them have only to choose the means and they will pick it up sooner or later ...


    well, the warheads are much larger, and they have definitely forgotten about tactical nuclear weapons, and there are many more, from 3 to 6 thousand warheads