BTA aircraft developer to replace An-12 will be determined at the end of the month

A decision will be made at the end of November on the choice of the concept of a medium military transport aircraft (SVTS) for the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. It is reported by "RIA News"citing a source in the aircraft industry.

The agency, citing a source, writes that the final decision on the choice of a design bureau that will develop a medium military transport aircraft designed to replace the An-12 will be made at the end of November, and not in September, as previously reported. The tactical and technical task for a promising medium military transport aircraft of the Ministry of Defense of Russia approved in November 2018, Ilyushin and Tupolev design bureaus participate in the competition.

The projects will be defended at the end of November, after which the Ministry of Industry and Trade and the Ministry of Defense will make a final decision on the choice of a design bureau that will create an average transporter

- the agency leads the words of the source.

The Tupolev Design Bureau previously stated that the company plans to create an average military transport aircraft, but did not explain whether this would be a “clean slate” development or whether the developments on the design of the Tu-330 ramp-type medium transport aircraft being developed in the 90’s would be used. years.

The Ilyushin Design Bureau is also ready to create a promising military aircraft and is already working on several concepts, including the Il-276. What other options are considered as a promising medium transporter, the corporation did not specify.

Comments

[Alexander Petrov1]

Somehow it’s strange that money is being spent here, then together with the Indians we spent a million dollars on IL-276, then we don’t need it anymore. Let's arrange a contest and connect Tupolev, and who will be responsible for the spent million dollars if Tupolev wins?

[maxim947]

Who will answer for millions is hard to say, this is a rhetorical question, but I think about the design bureau have been decided for a long time, now they simply imitate competition

[Lexus]

China is still building copies of the An-12 and improving them. The design was finalized and received its Y-9. A very reliable platform for many modifications.

And the Americans are in no hurry to give up Hercules.

[TermNachTer]

Very reasonable thought. Put modern motors, more powerful and economical. New avionics will be served by the elderly.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: TermNachTER

Very reasonable thought. Put modern motors, more powerful and economical.

What motors? It is clear that modern, but at least approximately, which are available in Russia. Avionics suggest that the import.

[TermNachTer]

In 2013, the Progress Design Bureau ordered a new engine for a transport aircraft, and Motor Sich was supposed to produce it. Even an advance was paid. It's time to ask - where is the result? There is a D - 27 engine.

[Avior]

Is D27 produced in Russia?

[Antares]

Quote: TermNachTER

In 2013, the Progress Design Bureau ordered a new engine for a transport aircraft, and Motor Sich was supposed to produce it. Even an advance was paid. It's time to ask - where is the result

The AI-222-25 turbofan engine is installed on the Yak-130, and its modification of the AI-322 turbofan engine with Ukrainian-made units on the L-15 AJT. Based on the AI-222-25 turbofan engine, an AI-322F turbofan engine, with a thrust of 4200 kgf in forced mode, was created for the L-15 LIFT supersonic aircraft, which is undergoing certification tests. Design work is underway to create an engine with increased power: AI-322-30 .. Using extensive experience in creating AI-222-25 and AI-322F engines, the AI-9500F turbofan is being developed with a 9,5 tf thrust designed for use in power plants of light combat aircraft .

[TermNachTer]

So is the AI ​​- 222 - 25 f, also with an afterburner. Russia, in 2012-13, paid an advance to the Progress Design Bureau for the development of engines for a transport aircraft and UBS. With this money, they made AI - 322, on the basis of AI - 222.

[Timx]

KB "Progress" - Zaporozhye, Ukraine)) What joint projects with them can be now, what are you talking about?

[TermNachTer]

The engines were working properly, but not directly, but through Belarus, Germany, the Baltic states. As they say - there would be a desire, but there are ways.

[Eug]

Chinese Y-8 compared to An-12: insert into the fuselage 2.7 meters long, supercritical wing to increase cruising speed, AI-20 MotorSichev engines with 90% power limit. As a result, it transports 70% of NATO’s standard transport nomenclature quite quickly and at low cost. A similar modernization was offered to the Indians for their An - 32, but they seemed to be limited to a more modest option. What ended - I do not know.

[Nycomed]

China and Tu-4 and Tu-16 still have "reliable platforms."

[Bongo]

Quote: Nycomed

China and Tu-4 and Tu-16 still have "reliable platforms."

The Tu-4 was decommissioned at the end of the 80's. Recent modifications of the H-6 are very different TTX from the Tu-16.

[Cryvedco]

And we would do that ... That's the bad thing about the An-12? What is planned in the new car so fundamentally new that it would not be possible on it? Don’t you wash the dough like that? I can not imagine the Russian military aviation without the An-12

[Pavel57]

An-12 was produced in Tashkent.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Creedco

That's the bad thing about the An-12?

Ukrainian design bureau, Ukrainian engines and the Tashkent plant.
And the fact that its release was discontinued 45 years ago.

[hydrox]

And what is unpleasant, the multidirectional purpose of the fuselage of an aircraft of the same class is not considered to perform oppositely different tasks when installing different engines on it to create aircraft of 20-30 different applications on the same platform - and the need is hundreds of aircraft :: from working a ramp horse for an unpaved airfield and to an anti-submarine with days in patrol and a fire-fighting vehicle with water intake from a reservoir.
And the platform is the same, while there is NO civilian cargo aircraft either !!

[Souchastnik]

I support, colleague. Already have problems with Ukraine because of the An-124-100. In any case, it is necessary to organize production from scratch: it is necessary to choose a site where it will be produced, to restore equipment. Since the development of the An-12, science and technology have advanced. The costs are the same, if not more than the development of a new one. Despite the merits and respect for the An-12, something new needs to be developed. Plus from me.

[Potter]

Quote: Creedco

That's the bad thing about the An-12?

At least the fact that he is one of the most emergency aircraft in the history of the USSR. His prototype brother, the passenger AN-10, was removed from Aeroflot scheduled flights due to high accident rates. The AN-12 itself claimed its entire history.

[not main]

Quote: Potter

Quote: Creedco

That's the bad thing about the An-12?

At least the fact that he is one of the most emergency aircraft in the history of the USSR. His prototype brother, the passenger AN-10, was removed from Aeroflot scheduled flights due to high accident rates. The AN-12 itself claimed its entire history.

This is from what ...? An-8, 10 yes, but An-12?

[Servisinzhener]

It will be necessary to get from the archives and digitize the production documentation for the aircraft. So that many details can be done at modern machining centers. Recreate the snap. To recreate many materials that are not produced today.
The developer and manufacturer of the engine ended up in a country not very friendly to us. In addition, the engine of the development of the late 50s. There is no point in restoring its production. Because an engine created taking into account the development of science and materials that appeared over the 50 years that have passed since the development of AI-20
will have the best options. So you need remotorization. Of the available engines, TV7-117ST is suitable for a vskidka. But he has less power per 1000 hp. It will take time and money to finalize.
It will also be necessary to re-develop or adapt existing components:
Control systems. On an airplane, a mechanical control system is heavier and takes up more space than an electro-remote control system.
Navigation and radio equipment made on the details of the 60s that will need to be replaced by developing new or existing ones to fit this aircraft.
A crew of 6-7 people which can be reduced to 2-3. On the vacant seat to expand the cargo compartment spending time on redesign.
The fuel system of soft tanks inside the wing caissons has long been abandoned. Wing redesign again
And each such change entails a change in the structural elements to which the new unit is attached.
And so little by little the result runs over: recreating the production of an old plane = designing a new one. Best case scenario.

[Piramidon]

Quote: lexus

China is still building copies of the An-12 and improving them. The design was finalized and received its Y-9. A very reliable platform for many modifications.

They even look at the An-600 in the AG12 Jiaolong.

[Alexander Petrov1]

Well, if everything was so simple, time and the Investigative Committee will show ...

[Sky strike fighter]

Quote: maxim947

Who will answer for millions is hard to say, this is a rhetorical question, but I think about the design bureau have been decided for a long time, now they simply imitate competition

Most likely this is the case, but why is it necessary to cast a shadow on the wattle fence and complicate everything?

The Russian Ministry of Defense approved the tactical and technical task for the promising medium military transport aircraft Il-276, RIA Novosti reports with reference to the press service of the S.V. Ilyushin.

IL-276 is a project of a turbojet medium military transport aircraft that provides transportation of goods weighing up to 20 tons at a speed of 800 kilometers per hour. It is planned that he will make the first flight in 2023, and serial deliveries to the troops will begin in 2026.

https://aviation21.ru/il-276-poluchil-utverzhdyonnoe-texzadanie/

[hydrox]

This aircraft alone does not even partially remove the problems of the BTA and is also of little use for the civil service.

[Alexander Petrov1]

Oh, this phrase of yours infuriates me so much, as well as all honest citizens of Russia - "Who will answer for millions - it's hard to say, this is a rhetorical question", so is it a question of criminal law and justice?

[Pavel57]

Justice is different for everyone.

[Alexander Petrov1]

Justice she alone as a fact, unwavering ...

[Pavel57]

Justice, as well as belief in it))))

[Alexander Petrov1]

Justice is an invariable constant, just like a fact, it is like honestly dividing 10 rubles equally into 10 people, the other is not given 1 ruble all.

[Pavel57]

And if you divide taking into account the contribution of each to the overall result?

[Alexander Petrov1]

I meant, on an equal footing, but even so it is also possible in fairness from contributions and profits, the main thing is to be honest.

[Pavel57]

As soon as the sharing is more complicated than just arithmetic, and justice arises, and it is among private owners of the divide, most often it turns out to be different.

[Alexander Petrov1]

Well, yes, they’re all equal, but there’s more even ..

[Pavel57]

Yeah, through KTU,

[Alexander Petrov1]

Well, yes, I worked on KTU, honestly divided between the brigade and no one was offended how much worked and received so much.

[Pavel57]

Now imagine KTU for 100 million.

[Alexander Petrov1]

The same approach.

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Nothing strange - we have such laws. Whatever corruption there is, all state purchases are carried out on a competitive basis. Even if you have invented a "perpetual motion machine", the state will not buy it from you until there is a competitor)))

[Alexander Petrov1]

Well, of course, if you give 5 years for theft and corruption, and not 25 years as in all developed countries of the United States and Europe, then at least catch them and put them in your face every day, then they will laugh in your face and then they will go out of prison after 3 years and will be spend stolen on yourself and drive past the Police in a jeep for 5 million rubles and smile at the cops who caught them ...

[Servisinzhener]

In the United States, this will not be called corruption, but lobbyism.

[Alexander Petrov1]

Lobbyism is when you are promoted to the Senate and you promote laws to help companies pay for the senator’s salary, and if you get not only the Senate salary, but also from the top and in the United States they put him for a long time ...

[Servisinzhener]

And if after the end of senatorial powers a person receives a well-paid position in the company whose interests he promoted?

[Alexander Petrov1]

Well, it’s after the senatorial powers - then it’s possible.

[Vlad.by]

That is the same Colin Power, they are now eating the balance, yeah.
Or the lobbyist of son Biden Sr. is torn in prez ...

[Alexander Petrov1]

So paid off for a million dollars ...

[Vlad.by]

Another question is, who paid off ...

[Alexander Petrov1]

Well, if you didn’t plant it, it’s paid off, isn’t it?

[Vlad.by]

Of course not! He’s not a corrupt man, he’s a lobbyist! this is the difference.
Corruptionist - this is when a policeman uses a flash drive obtained by a wise journalist and tries to put Biden Jr.
This is not enough for 25 years in Turm. He’ll be squeezed from the light!
Wow - Uses his official position! No, in order to eat donuts in the car, but to drink the base coffee with salary, so he with his police snout and in the senate row ...
And Biden will also be paid compensation.
And you paid off ...

[Alexander Petrov1]

And like I'm a lobbyist, do not touch me, and not a corrupt official?

[Vlad.by]

in comparison with "all developed countries" in our prisons it really takes five years, so everything is fair)

[Alexander Petrov1]

I don’t know, my friend was sitting, they say they’re fed better than in the hospital and there’s no need to work and they let the woman in the USA for 3 days, you can only dream about it ...

[Vlad.by]

Well, we have some hospitals in ten years)))

[Alexander Petrov1]

Yeah, I know ...

[Souchastnik]

The law allows purchases from a single supplier. But there antitrust monitors are sure to connect.

[Alexander Petrov1]

Have you ever seen anyone so that antitrust monitors seriously punished? They give a ridiculous fine, and not a large percentage of the turnover as in the whole world and do not force the price tag to be changed back to the previous price, and we ordinary consumers pay for this lawlessness.

[Shkworen]

Yes, I participated in the tender, where the company in which I worked was the only supplier, but because Because the law requires a mandatory tender, I had to come up with a couple of competitors for the tender :)

[IL-18]

Quote: Vitaly Tsymbal

until there is a competitor

Yeah, and to the heap (!): OR SIMILAR

[senima56]

"... who will be responsible for the spent million dollars?" - but no one will answer! We have a country of "innocent"! Who will be responsible for the failed SSJ? And there, not millions, billions of dollars were stolen! And there is a lot more to ask, and this is only in the aviation industry.

[alex aircraft]

For SSD is responsible specifically Poghosyan. His place on the bunk. But where is he? Rector of MAI.

[Prisoner]

What does "spent" mean? They are "mastered". And answer? So tea is not the time of Stalin's "repression". Tea we now have "democracy".

[Zeev Zeev]

But is it impossible to upgrade An-12, as the Americans did with C-130?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

But is it impossible to upgrade An-12, as the Americans did with C-130?

Modernizers at the development stage of the An-7 proved to be very unreliable guys.

[Zeev Zeev]

No drawings in Russia? Designers and technologists who can modernize and deploy production? Factories, workers? In China there is, they rivet their version of the An-12 and constantly modify it.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

No drawings in Russia?

I'm afraid that according to the drawings available in Russia, I will have to develop the aircraft again, and only then upgrade it.

[Cryvedco]

The original enemy Tu-4 was copied with a pencil in a fairly short time. Not really now with computers and a bunch of equipment that greatly simplifies the work, will it be more difficult to recreate your own plane?

[hydrox]

The first Tu-4 was released from the factory exactly one year after receiving the design assignment: of Soviet design there were only engines, avionics and guns: the military envoys were strictly following the scraping of the parts on whatman :: The set of drawings was completely ready in 3 months.
The fasteners were all inch, but made in the USSR (self-locking nuts were especially good, they were not used in Soviet aircraft construction (they have since been used!)).
And it was done in the Tupolev "sharaga"

[Pavel57]

If you work in the aviation industry, then answer is difficult.

[D16]

No drawings in Russia? Designers and technologists who can modernize and deploy production? Factories, workers? In China there is, they rivet their version of the An-12 and constantly modify it.

The fact of the matter is that they rivet it all the time, like the Americans do their S-130. You propose to us to organize the production of an outdated aircraft that has never been produced in Russia and at the same time to modernize and re-engine it .. I'm not talking about the howling of non-brothers on this occasion. They are very jealous of everything with the name "An". It is cheaper to develop a new aircraft to meet the modern requirements of the military.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

In China there is, they rivet their version of An-12 and modify it constantly.

That's exactly his own, but not a "clone".

[Lexus]

I believe you wanted to write about the An-70. And the devil is with them. An-12 was produced in Irkutsk, Voronezh and Tashkent. We have all the documentation. Take the "blank" as it is, and nothing prevents you from piling. But the interests are obviously different.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: lexus

An-12 in Irkutsk, Voronezh and Tashkent was produced. We have all the documentation.

1973 Documentation Under the allies of 1973. Under the technology of 1973. Under the materials of 1973. For the production of new An-12s was completed 45 years ago.
And now we are starting to bring all this into line with today's standards and the available materials, components and systems ...

[Lexus]

Alexey
Well, something needs to be done. Purposefully. And do not run away from project to project, from developer to developer.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: lexus

Well, something needs to be done. Purposefully.

For starters, it would be nice to issue competent TK on a new plane.
In which to take into account not only existing cargoes, but also promising ones, 50 years ahead. And that was already a precedent with Osprey: when it finally got to the customer, it turned out that the equipment that he was originally supposed to transport does not fit into it - either in size or in weight. For from the beginning of the 90s (when the Osprey was supposed to come to the troops) the equipment planned for transportation was either replaced with new models. or has undergone modifications that have increased its weight and / or dimensions.

[Lexus]

For starters, it would be nice to issue competent TK on a new plane.

Alexey
I agree with you at 100500. This is the root of the problem. MO says "we want" and what is unclear. You develop something there yourself, and we'll see. As a result, all this throwing and thoughtlessly spent funds. And factories without orders.

[Pavel57]

Lexus (Alexey),
what plants without orders - Ulyanovsk, Voronezh, Irkutsk, Komsomolsk, Lukhovitsy?

Although I agree, the customer often does not know what he wants.

[Sergey Valov]

You still forgot to say that we get an obsolete aircraft.

[Zeev Zeev]

To make a MiG-3 from scratch according to the drawings 80 years ago, but with new technologies and another engine, a private workshop with fifty people without a design bureau can. Can the An-12 not be the whole aircraft industry?

[hydrox]

And why not?
And because there is no external enemy, there is no threat from outside, the Brest peace has been concluded with internal liberoid enemies, THEREFORE there is no need for exertion of forces, and there is no need to win, therefore there is no will to win ...

[D16]

Can the An-12 not be the whole aircraft industry?

What is it for? A new generation of armored vehicles will not fit into its cargo compartment. Even the one that he will master by weight after remotorization.

[Servisinzhener]

At best, 73 years old. Because his first flight took place in 57, and began to design it a couple of years earlier.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Alexey RA

And now we are starting to bring all this into line with today's standards and the available materials, components and systems ...

And what comes of it.

[Sergey Valov]

In a modern airplane, a glider, a power plant and avionics, are approximately equally divided. That is, by two-thirds, it will be another plane. Shove it into the old glider is all very difficult and will have to be redone. Plus, for almost 60 years, the aircraft industry has advanced somewhat, and it’s more reasonable, say, to improve the airframe. In total, the output will be almost 100% a new aircraft that looks very similar to the old one with crazy headaches for designers and technologists. The question is - isn’t it easier to make a new plane from scratch?

[Servisinzhener]

In the USSR, the An-12 was mass-produced at three aircraft plants in:
Irkutsk, 1957-62, 155 copies;
Voronezh, 1960-65, 258 copies,
Tashkent, 1962-72, 830 copies.
I doubt that all the necessary documentation for the production was discontinued more than half a century ago.

[Corn]

Modern “Hercules” have completely new wings, a new cockpit, new engines, and the percentage of cosposites in the construction is almost like that of the f-35. It would be easier to make a new plane than to pump an outdated car like that.

[Zeev Zeev]

Well, this is how the design is recalculated in accordance with modern technologies and materials and a new aircraft is made at the old base. As the Americans did.

[D16]

Maybe first ask our military about their requirements for a new aircraft? The main customer is them, not Zeev Zeev from Israel .

[Zeev Zeev]

TK will be the same. Cargo X, dimensions Y, range and fuel consumption Z. Medium transport aircraft, that is, tanks do not need to be pulled, but BMD

[D16]

Will not be. Neither BMD-4M nor shell in An-12 climbs. I am not talking about Kurganets and Boomerang.

[Zeev Zeev]

"Kurganets" and "Boomerang" and should not climb. But if the BMD does not fit, this is a problem.

[D16]

"Kurganets" and "Boomerang" and should not climb.

Fortunately, this is only your personal opinion. An average transport aircraft should work on all types of troops and carry weighted equipment with a load capacity. There has already been an attempt to create such an aircraft. This is the An-70. IMHO, this road should go, given the tendency to increase the size of modern armored vehicles.

[Pavel57]

And the Americans with the S-130 and the Chinese Y-12, the line of modernization was not interrupted. Returning to the old drawings is essentially creating a new plane. A turbojet to buy from the Chinese?

[Zeev Zeev]

Do you have TVDs? The same helicopter?

[Alexander Petrov1]

In the United States, S-130s are still being produced, but we haven’t had them for a long time and their resource is coming to an end, if they were still being mass-produced, then it would be possible to upgrade a bad plane.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

But is it impossible to upgrade An-12, as the Americans did with C-130?

I already wrote that the car has been in the series since 1957. She has exhausted all the limits of modernization (see the AN-12 line). As the Romans said, "You can't build a new house on an old foundation."

[Zeev Zeev]

"Hercules" has been produced since 1956. And they continue to modernize it.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

"Hercules" has been produced since 1956. And they continue to modernize it.

It depends on what kind of modernization is laid down, but both of them are as old as the world. Forget the last century.

[Souchastnik]

It is possible to upgrade. If the glider is not worn, if there is potential. And in this case, it will be something like installing a photon engine on a cart.

[hydrox]

With so many gentry aplomb and arrogance, characteristic of the General Staff, it is impossible!
That’s why we cannot decide on the composition of the fleets for a quarter of a century after the fleets plundered, decommissioned and sold out ...

[Servisinzhener]

It’s easier to buy documents and rights to the An-70 from Antonov Design Bureau through a shell company. And ZMKB Progress on D27. After all, it was the An-70 that was to replace the An-12. And in my opinion, starting production of the An-70 will be much easier and more efficient than the An-12.

[Pavel57]

The main question is what serial plant is planned?
On the Tupolev side is the Tu-330 project. On the side of Ilyushin - IL-76, 112 - are already flying. Project IL-106.
Any argument can outweigh one way or another.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Pavel57

The main question is what serial plant is planned?

They didn’t choose a design bureau yet, but you immediately plant. Wait a bit. Look like with the replacement of AN-2, then one, then the other.

[hydrox]

One trepidation, and there was no corn-beaker, and there isn’t - this is because there is no master in the country!

[D16]

there was no cornbill

There are airplanes. Here is an example: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/СМ-92_Finist
Great plane. Meets all requirements of AP-23. Thirty sides serve in the Federal Border Guard Service of Russia. One trouble. The motor is imported. There is no motor for 500-600 mares - there is no aircraft.

[Genry]

Quote: D16

Here is an example: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/СМ-92_Finist

Compare the load capacity and realize that this is not at all ....

[hydrox]

So after all, both are needed, and there are none too ...

[Genry]

Yes you need!
But more for private transport and only over the steppe territory (the possibility of an emergency landing).

[D16]

Its carrying capacity is sufficient to carry nine people with luggage. An-2 was a single-engine overgrowth. I repeat, according to aviation rules, it should have two motors.

[Genry]

Quote: D16

Its carrying capacity is sufficient to carry nine people with luggage.

You confuse carrying capacity with passenger capacity. In total there are 7 pax plus a pilot.

[D16]

Sorry. I read about him for a long time. But not the point. I do not offer it in its current form, but this plane is similar to what, in my opinion, corresponds to the concept of a light GA aircraft.

[Genry]

Quote: D16

this plane is similar to what, in my opinion, corresponds to the concept of a light aircraft GA

I do not deny its usefulness. But in Russia, most of the commercial flights of small aircraft are where there are difficulties with land transport: mountains, forests, swamps ... Single-engine aircraft are fraught with .....

[D16]

In Alaska, there are a lot of such aircraft and nothing. You just don’t need to overload the plane and fly

[Genry]

It is strange that you did not say that bears at the helm should not be allowed either.

[Genry]

By the way, the MiG did the T-101 Rook, specifically for the replacement of the An-2.
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/craft/t101.html

[D16]

I don’t know where they looked at SibNIA when they stepped on the same rake.

[Marconi41]

Quote: D16

Thirty boards serve in the Federal Border Guard Service of Russia

In terms of postage? Federal Postal Service? I didn’t even know that there were so many of them.

[D16]

Border Service .

[tihonmarine]

Quote: D16

The motor is imported. There is no motor on the 500-600 mares - there is no aircraft.

"Kamovtsy" have already asked OAO Kuznetsov to create such an engine and they agreed. But they were simply not allowed to do this, allegedly there is no finance, the "Kuznetsovites" do not have foreign capital, who will give them.

[D16]

Thank God they didn’t. They cannot bring the engine, which they themselves developed and produced in the USSR. You do not know how much in recent years NK-32m2 scattered on the stand? And you propose to give back there the development of a new engine of a completely unusual dimension. Klimovtsy were engaged in such engines. This is their bread. And now they have such a motor in development.

[Genry]

Quote: tihonmarine

But they simply were not allowed to do this, supposedly there is no finance,

While postponed turboshaft (VK-800V вhelicopter) option. A turboprop (VK-800C сamulet) promise to certify next year - tests are now underway.

[Prisoner]

The country is big. One owner cannot handle it. We need a few and the SCH soul to heart lived, but they butted in the capitals. And the question is, who is overrunning whom? Either statist liberals, or vice versa.

[hydrox]

And this is already a passed stage: look at the US parliament and you will see that it is completely incomprehensible that prevents the Democrats from shooting republicans (and exactly the same, but vice versa). The owner of the country should ONLY ONE, in order to avoid the dual power, inevitable in a democratic form of government-a disgusting phenomenon observed today in Russia in all its stunning disgust.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: hydrox

Inevitable in a democratic form of government

And private property.

[hydrox]

This is not such a bad thing :: you probably know about Scandinavian socialism :: not of the degree of paternalism, of course, as in the Union, but it works for them (I’m not saying that we need the same, but the strategic sectors of the state wa and all energy should be nationalized).

[tihonmarine]

Quote: hydrox

This is not such a bad thing :: you probably know about Scandinavian socialism:

I live nearby and worked there, so I know. But no other people, they will not break the law, and they will not seize to chaos. I remember we went to visit a Swede, he has a house with a garden. He allowed us to collect the "carrion" and apologized that he could not give from the tree. According to their law, if apples hang, then they are taxed, which do not fall, they are not taxed. Here he will collect them, weigh them and pay the tax. Well, we told him "So shake it and you don't have to pay." He looked at us and said "The state cannot be deceived." This is their mentality.

[Pavel57]

An-2 is still a different song. And there are not so many factories - Ulyanovsk and Voronezh.
Theoretically, there could be Irkutsk, but hardly.

[D16]

An-2 does not comply with AP-23. It should have 2 motors. The Finist has a passenger compartment for 9 passengers.

[Genry]

Quote: D16

The Finist has a passenger compartment for 9 passengers.

At 6 and plus one next to the pilot.

[hydrox]

A smart guide should have SO:
There should be so many aircraft factories that each year the economy ends with a profit, and the pace of aircraft production does not lag behind the trend of the current need, taking into account the time required to prepare the production of a new aircraft.
As an unsuccessful example, I’ll give the Be-200 :: an airplane was created 20 years ago, but no one dared (oh!) That the airplane was not provided with engines and that’s what happened last year, it seemed :: blazed in California and the United States asked for an URGENT delivery of 15-20 aircraft of the Be-200 type - any money and bonuses, but NO engines!
The supply was disrupted, the losses were breathtaking and multibillion - and there was NO blame for the guilty, although the need has not disappeared for decades, the demand is steady and unsatisfied, although attempts are being made, but our patents are open to the POEA strangers, but no one will last so long knows.

[hydrox]

A mess in the country :: Ivan nods at Peter, and Peter at Ivan - without a State Plan, any country becomes lumpy! But the budget of Russia in the hands of ... it becomes an indulgence in theft - more than THREE trillions of UNCERTAINTY money !!!

[tihonmarine]

The agency, citing a source, writes that the final decision on the choice of a design bureau that will develop a medium-sized military transport aircraft designed to replace the An-12 will be made in late November, and not in September, as previously reported.

Well, here again about airplanes, again tyagomotina, again bravura marches "Higher and higher ..." and yet they just choose the design bureau, and when they build, and by the way, as a replacement for the AN-2, the development of aircraft engines all promises, reports, but nothing is done , or rather sabotaged. Nobody needs airplanes, especially good ones, because they will become competitors to Boeing and Airbas. But if foreign capital is invested in KB, then this KB will win.

[Zaurbek]

I would make two options with one fuselage .... 4xTVD ... and 2xTRD

[Rzzz]

Turbine engines are not needed for military-technical cooperation of "less than average" dimensions, like the An-12. Propellers only.

[Zaurbek]

An12 & C130 ..... hits!

[Rzzz]

Only Antoshka is also beautiful! And the C130 is just a faceless sausage.

[hydrox]

I agree with this unconditionally: as far as the awkward An-10 was, the An-12 turned out to be so elegant.

[hydrox]

And who prevents the fuselage to extend under the PS-90A (for example)?
And make it ramp-free, but a clean truck with automatic loading?

[D16]

And make it ramp free

And how will the warriors carry equipment on it without a ramp?

[hydrox]

Can you read?
After all, a Russian in white "CLEAN TRUCK" - what have the soldiers to do with it?
Or do you think there is no such demand?
In vain

[D16]

There is a "clean truck" Tu-204S. Russian Post bought a couple of them. One is operated by DHL. Nobody else was honored. I guess that means there is no demand.

[hydrox]

Yes, the unions are minuscule, but without words - apparently, there is nothing to say from a limited vocabulary or from the fact that the planes were only seen from afar on the airfield (or along the condensation trail high in the air).

[tihonmarine]

Quote: hydrox

Yes, the unions are minus, but without words - apparently, there is nothing to say from a limited vocabulary or because

This is one of those, as in the naval parable "Everyone who sits on the shore, I think that they are the most versed in naval affairs, and the fleet is just a burden for them." When we have half of the site suddenly became aircraft-ship designers, experts on engines. You read and wonder. But oh, how they don't like the truth, so they minus.

[hydrox]

Yes, the unions do not even imagine that a 20-ton aircraft can be loaded in half an hour - an hour in single containers - count, ouns, the cost of an airplane’s flight hour ...

[hydrox]

But the An-8 - An-12 line proved its worth with a single production base: 10 and 20 tons with a single technological documentation were obtained at an extremely low cost.

[hydrox]

It is more appropriate to say that the technological documentation for the production of both machines was written on the same tracing paper and was accompanied by the same team

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zaurbek

I would make two options with one fuselage .... 4xTVD ... and 2xTRD

What type of engines would you put? Of course, it's better to put two.

[Zaurbek]

Or 4x AI20 .... updated ... or 2xDouble ... no ready.

[hydrox]

Gluttonous junk ...

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zaurbek

Or 4x A20 .... updated.

Zaporizhzhya engine, works with 1957 of the year, not that. Yes, and there are a lot of Four, not economically, good yes, but where are they.

[hydrox]

Hit the sore spot :: the liberda that has occupied all the heights in the aviation industry is sabotaging the engine industry with all its might :: after all, the PD line was announced 5-7 years ago, but there is still not a single finished unit, and there should be at least them five, from 10 tf to 45, and I am silent about NK, PS, liquid-gas engine and the darkness of the theater of war for small fry and helicopters

[tihonmarine]

Quote: hydrox

Hit the sore spot :: the liberda that has occupied all the heights in the aviation industry is sabotaging the engine industry with all its might:

I also write about how much, but there are so many liberties on the site that I can write nonsense.

[Radical]

Quote: Alexey RA

Quote: lexus

An-12 in Irkutsk, Voronezh and Tashkent was produced. We have all the documentation.

1973 Documentation Under the allies of 1973. Under the technology of 1973. Under the materials of 1973. For the production of new An-12s was completed 45 years ago.
And now we are starting to bring all this into line with today's standards and the available materials, components and systems ...

For a long time to cut, sorry - are you going to "bring" ...?

[tihonmarine]

I realized that on our site it is dangerous to write the truth about the Russian aircraft industry and especially about aircraft engines, and I don't want to write "bullshit" for the needs of a day.

[D16]

Nothing to say, but really want to. .

[tihonmarine]

Quote: D16

Nothing to say, but really want to.

A lot of things can be said, but what I did not say, everything is actually being realized. He said that they would gash NK-93 and gash it, even Putin was deceived. I will not say anything further, tongue.

[D16]

In the sense of "gash"? There was no need to file it. The NK engines did everything themselves. There was no progress, funding was stopped. An engine without an airplane is not much needed. Although the idea was good, for the top plans BTA is just right. Putin has already been deceived many times. IMHO sometimes he himself is glad to be deceived. I especially liked how he was overwritten about An-148 or 140. When I looked, I whinnied loudly

[tihonmarine]

Quote: D16

An engine without an airplane is not much needed.

But tell this to Aleksandr Anisimov, Lead Designer of OAO Kuznetsov, and to the world famous test pilot, Major General Magomed Tolboyev.

[D16]

He knows it without me too. And Tolboev, with all his merits, unfortunately, it’s time for a long time to drink pills, and not get on the TV.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: D16

He knows it without me too. And Tolboev, with all his merits, unfortunately, it’s time for a long time to drink pills, and not get on the TV.

I do not argue, for children, this is normal behavior. You are everywhere the first "And the Shvets, and the reaper, and the igrets on the pipe", even prescribed tablets to Tolboyev.

[D16]

Dohtur prescribes tablets. I just hear the nonsense that he sometimes carries from the screen.

[D16]

That IL-276, that Tu-330 projects from the late 80s. We already know their price from IL-112. He will be doped with a file for a couple of years, changing duralumin to composites, and steel to titanium. The only question is the new price of the serial board and whether it will be affordable for warriors. Selyavy. Miser pays twice. IMHO, both offices discredited themselves utterly. It would be better not to dig in, but turned to the Yakovlevites. You see, it would have turned out to be an average transporter unified in terms of engine and wing with MS-21 with good export potential.

[Pavel57]

D16 (Ilya),
than "both offices have discredited themselves"? I work, taking into account all the problems, even with the result. The Il-476 was put into production, the Il-112 will be completed, and relatively soon.
Tu-204SM - did not become mass for external reasons. And the Tu-330 is just made with the unification of the wing with the Tu-204.

[D16]

IL-476 put into series

In general, by the end of the year there should be 39, but this is garbage. I do not understand the essence of this remotorization. What was the point of increasing the load capacity, leaving the old narrow and low cargo compartment. Did you plan to carry rental? You say what you ordered, then you received it. But it is not so. In the creation of those. assignments involved both sides.

IL-112 will be brought, and relatively soon.

I already wrote about this above. "It's all about the ticket price" (c). Do you think the Ilyushin people, after the grandiose nix, will change duralumin for carbon at their own expense, and steel for titanium and the old price will remain? The question of the expediency of purchasing this pepelats for me personally remains not that open, wide open . The trouble is not so much in the love of money, but in the lost time, which you cannot get from gas fields.

Tu-204SM - did not become mass for external reasons.

Nobody needs him. If the CSW and MS-21 are competitive machines and it makes sense to use an administrative resource to distribute them. then 204MS at the time of creation was an obsolete aircraft. To impose it on the airlines meant putting them all on the state. subsidies. Tight and forever.

Tu-330 is just made with the unification of the wing with the Tu-204.

Why unification with an aircraft that is not actually produced? It is necessary to unify with a promising one, which will be built in a series. Otherwise, buns from increasing the series can not be seen.

[Pavel57]

The Tu-204SM market was at least tens of Iran. But they ran into P&W patents.

[D16]

How many times Iran was "going to buy" our new aircraft, as many times arranged a bummer. One more time, one less. At least there is a beautiful excuse for the electorate. Anti-Russian sentiments are very strong in Iran. And the fact that UVZ somehow managed to agree with him is already a feat. In addition, there are well aware of the disasters involving TU-154.

[Pavel57]

The IL-476 had to be redone in a good way, in the manner of the Chinese Y-20, but, I think, they assessed the possibilities ... and decided to reduce the risks, only redone the wing. So the plane was digitized at the very least and put on the wing. The design bureau and the factory did what they could, the military agreed, otherwise the dates would have sailed even further. And here at least one position out of 4 in transport aviation was closed.
IL-112- will be technically completed. From the point of view of finances and terms, I don’t presume to judge this side.
Tu-204SM laid the party, but something did not work out.
Yakovlevites have enough work with the MS-21, and then a joint Chinese project looms, although there are many questions there, but all are not technical.

[D16]

redid only the wing.

It is very loudly said. Stopped milling the casing, returned to the chemical. milling, due to this increased the length of the panels. Mechanization has become composite. These are technological changes. Geometrics may exist, but they are not striking.

otherwise the dates would have gone even further. And here at least one position out of 4 in transport aviation was closed.

And where was the rush? What can the 476th do, what the Il-76 with D-30 engines cannot do? Moreover, the motor is still in production and is being modernized for the Chinese. Old gliders could be upgraded until a new heavy TA aircraft was created. It was urgent to develop the budget. I don’t see another answer.

Yakovlevites have enough work with the MS-21,

I do not argue, but they have now gathered the most sensible specialists from all design bureaus. While the Ilyushin residents grow a shift to people who have gone to Yak, cancer on the mountain will whistle.

[Genry]

Quote: D16

What was the point of increasing the load capacity, leaving the old narrow and low cargo compartment.

An-70 did more, and this oversize made it unnecessary.

Quote: D16

Nobody needs him.

The Tu-204 turned out to be "unnecessary" as the Medvedev clan began to lobby for Boeing's interests. Then a company began to ban flights of all Soviet-made paksovoy.

Quote: D16

Why unification with an aircraft that is not actually produced?

The Tu-204 is still being manufactured for critical tasks (there is production with equipment), because it is completely mine.
Transport workers are always produced in smaller series, which pay off worse than trucks and pax carriers, so unification could make the production of the Tu-330 real.

Quote: D16

It is necessary to unify with a promising one, which will be built in a series.

You can focus on the MS-21. But while they make this version of the transporter, a newer and more promising one will appear. Those. you will constantly and to no avail drool.

[D16]

The An-70s did more, and this oversize made it unnecessary.

An-70 was developed as a medium TA aircraft to replace the An-12. However, during the journey the dog was able to grow up and brazenly climbed into the niche of IL-76, which then was too early to change. Well, the eternal hemorrhoids with the non-brothers finished off in my opinion a magnificent plane.

Medvedev’s clan began lobbying for Boeing’s interests.

I do not like this conspiracy. Arbuzov flies a lot in our airlines. Where did the "Medvedev clan" look?

The Tu-204 is still being manufactured for critical tasks (there is production with equipment), because completely

And what, we have mass-produced some other, even if not quite our own aircraft of this class?

while they make this version of the transporter, a newer and more promising one will appear

Generations of passenger aircraft change after 30-40 years. Boeng 737 will not let lie . You are too bad opinions about the Yakovlevites.

[Pavel57]

D16 (Ilya),
- An-70 - not the dog has grown, but the demand of the military has grown.
- Medvedev has family ties with Aeroflot (but this is conspiracy theology)))),
- There’s not quite your own plane, if you take the Superjet, with a 80% import share,
- Boeing will not let you lie, but something he strongly clung to the B737, and ran into MAX.

The projects of Tupolev and Ilyushin are outdated, but what can you say about MS-21, which grew from Yak-242, is also a project of the late 80s.

Ilyushin did not work.)))

In general, any solution is a search for compromises between opportunities today, prospects tomorrow and various external and internal factors.
IL-476 moved production from Tashkent to Ulyanovsk, taking into account the collapse of the industry, with difficulty. And the release of a fundamentally new aircraft, most likely could not work out.
And yet, only a change in the technology of production of the wing, just))
PS-90 provides fuel economy and payload growth, which is already justified. And let the old planes fly from the D-30.
The Chinese with the Y-20 have a spacious fuselage, but the D-30KP-2 engines, not the Burlak modification.
I think that their wing is simply copied from the IL-76.

[D16]

The dog grew with the requirements
military from the 78th to the 86th year. And not a normal cargo compartment killed this project, but the fact that it began to duplicate the IL-76 and it became possible to abandon it under the pretext of resuming the production of IL.
Superjet regional plane. It is small for open sky, etc. But the president’s detachment is present, despite the allegedly 80 percent of imported components. Although this is not so.
Do you think Medvedev is doing an undeserved discount on tickets?
The 737th, despite a very respectable age, has exhausted its modernization potential, one might say yesterday.
Namely, that the MS-21 grew, and was not built according to the digitized drawings of the old project. There, only the sizes remained from the original, and then most likely not all.
A return to chemical milling is not your thing. The technology is very old, dirty and harmful primarily for the skin itself. You can say Back in USSR . At Tu 204 they abandoned it. Over the hill much earlier.
What is the reason for the increase in payload if the old cargo compartment does not allow it to be realized? I am afraid that all 76s for the entire time of service will not beat off the money saved in kerosene with the money they have in them. This is my humorous assumption, if that .
The wing for the Y20 was made in Antonov.

[Pavel57]

Several processes were going on simultaneously. Tashkent was unable to fulfill the Chinese order. TAPO was not included in the KLA, this led to the divorce and transfer of the production of IL-76 to Ulyanovsk. I do not exclude that the political risks for transport aviation became too strong, and the native Il-476 became politically better than the not-so-native An-70, especially since there were still Ukrainian engines besides the glider.
The B737 certainly exhausted itself, but the Boeing hoped to cut down on a problematic modernization, and exchanged potential risks for real losses.
MS-21 is not the reincarnation of the Yak-242, but also from the Tu-330, if he is the winner, most likely there will be one name.
IL-476 will not bring any profit, but the BTA has a real aircraft, and the A-100 platform.
Wing for Y20 did in Antonov, but it is very different from the wing of the IL-76, taking into account the common engines?

[D16]

B737 certainly exhausted itself

So yes, but half a hundred years have passed. That greed fraer ruined naturally. Sooner or later it was supposed to happen, but how late it happened! .

The wing for the Y20 was made in Antonov, but it is very different from the IL-76 wing, taking into account the common engines ?.

More like an An70 wing. At least the trailing edge is almost straight, in contrast to the broken Ilovskaya.
I will not say anything about the Tu-330. For me, this absolutely dark horse is a bit lighter than a black hole .

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Pavel57

I work, taking into account all the problems, even with the result. IL-476 is put into series, IL-112 will be brought, and relatively soon.

I understood from your comment that you are working as a Lead Designer of IL.

[L-39NG]

If there is a UAC, then everything is on the same rake, whoever is pointed out will develop. What is KB? They united everything, not any school for you, not any competition for you, not any spirit of healthy competition. The result will be. As Viktor Stepanovich Chernomyrdin said: "Whatever we do, we get the Communist Party of the Soviet Union or a Kalashnikov assault rifle." Or Suchoj Superjet 100. "Savings are called, however."

[L-39NG]

And, nevertheless, I would like to know on what basis the moderators allow cons? Is the voice of the people the voice of God? And, suddenly, this "people" bought by someone? So Christ was crucified. And Galileo was burned at the stake, believing only in their own truth.

[Prisoner]

An-12 is a good device in my opinion. A hard worker. If not right, let the aviators correct. Wouldn't it be cheaper to modernize this glider with new avionics? Although "Antonov" dies after the Ukrainian tricks, but can not Russia, the legitimate heir of the USSR, use the Soviet developments of the design bureau created by Moscow? Or is it only Soviet debts?

[Pavel57]

A wonderful car Moskvich -412, the car of the year, can it be modernized? Put a new engine, suspension., Electronics. Well, to expand the cabin, yet the standards have changed for environmental friendliness, safety.

[Prisoner]

And why is he so beautiful? Creepy interior, kapizny engine. Are you a pilot

[Pavel57]

This was an analogy with the Moskvich generation aircraft.

[Prisoner]

I have 9 jumps from this unit, and a lot of flights back and forth. And I like him. And the M-412 is not.

[AKS-U]

- "... will be determined at the end of the month."
Here they forgot to indicate the year. The logic here does not work.

[Marconi41]

Quote: D16

Border Service .

It seems to me that the border guards were once the FPS, but now this is definitely not the case.