The Nazis in the early days of the war realized that there would be no “blitzkrieg” in the USSR

1941 year, the very beginning of the war - the non-healing wound of the domestic stories. The question that historians have been discussing for many years is related to whether the Soviet Union could have done less in the first weeks of the war, could it be better prepared for the enemy invasion than was done?

In the early days and months of the war, the Red Army suffered crushing defeats - it would be strange to deny this today. But at the same time, Hitler’s “machine” for the first time since the beginning of World War II (and its beginning can be considered the invasion of German and Polish troops in Czechoslovakia) experienced tremendous opposition, the fortitude of the soldier of the enemy army. Indeed, before the start of the war against the USSR, the advancement of German divisions in Europe more closely resembled something similar to the parade march: individual states surrendered to Hitler for several days.

In one of the programs on the Day TV channel, the first stage of the Great Patriotic War is discussed. The problem was raised due to the fact that in our country the general public about the first months of the war is much less known than about periods of future victories (for that moment). But if the Soviet troops were defeated at the first stage of the Second World War, this does not at all reduce the public interest in the events that took place at that time on the fronts, this does not mean the absence of the feat of the Red Army soldiers of that period of warfare.

The air presents the opinion of the columnist of the journal "Historian", doctor of historical sciences Oleg Nazarov. The program also presents important quotes from German sources.

German General Edgar von Butlar:

As a result of the stubborn resistance of the Russians in the early days of the fighting, German troops suffered such losses in personnel and equipment that were significantly higher than the losses known from the experience of campaigns in Poland and the West.

The Nazis in the early days of the war realized that the promised “blitzkrieg” would not work - victorious march on paper was one thing, real battles with the Red Army were another.

Comments

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

In fact, the endurance of the Soviet troops and the problems of the German in the early days and months of the war are clearly visible from Halder's diary. The German commander very quickly realized that this would be a completely different war ...

[Proxima]

At the beginning of the war, the Red Army usturail the Wehrmacht in the main: The Red Army hopelessly lost to the Germans by the number of troops simultaneously entering the battle... That is, the German machine, fine-tuned in two years of war, primitively smashed the "raw" units of the Red Army in parts. Unfortunately, we were doomed to suffer defeat at the beginning of the war.

[iConst]

Quote: Proxima

The Red Army hopelessly lost to the Germans by the number of troops simultaneously entering the battle

This is called a "strategic initiative". The attacking side chooses where to strike. The enemy is forced to answer, i.e. always playing at least one tempo.
It is for this reason that the mechanized corps were lost, which were thrown either in one direction or in another. And a significant number of cars, mostly heavy, were simply lost due to damage to the chassis. The same newer HFs had problems in this part. This is well described in the materials regarding the battle of Brody, Exactly, although this was not a one-time operation, but a series of counterattacks.

Only a counterattack can seize the initiative. That’s why they threw not deployed, not finished units into counterattacks - there was no time. And it was precisely this that made it possible to complicate the implementation of the Wehrmacht plans as much as possible and to gain time for preparing the second echelon of troops.

The second significant factor is the practically zero radio frequency of units, primarily armored ones. In the attack, the tank unit was poorly controlled. Only the command vehicles had radios, some of the vehicles had only receivers, the rest before the attack, the commander said "do as I do." The German artillerymen quickly learned to identify command vehicles. It is not difficult to guess what happened to the operation when the commander died.

[AU Ivanov.]

Tank and mechanized corps were also lost due to an imperfect staff: a small number of vehicles, motorized infantry and repair and evacuation services. Plus the lack of air cover.

[Albert1988]

Quote: AS Ivanov.

Tank and mechanized corps were also lost due to an imperfect staff: a small number of vehicles, motorized infantry and repair and evacuation services. Plus the lack of air cover.

Plus, the almost complete absence of such vehicles as ARVs in the Red Army, and the hulls themselves were formed very recently, therefore, on the one hand, there was no time to debug the control of these hulls, on the other hand, all tanks were driven into the mechanized corps, depriving the tanks of infantry, which The result was greatly weakened.

[strannik1985]

This is called a "strategic initiative"

This is precisely what is called lead in deployment, when there are more troops on the battlefield than the enemy.
The initiative is the next item.
The radioification of parts ... I would not call it a serious drawback compared to the imperfection of the MK staff, the unpreparedness of military personnel, the lack of state-owned vehicles, weapons and other property.

[iConst]

Quote: strannik1985

This is precisely what is called lead in deployment, when there are more troops on the battlefield than the enemy.

A little bit wrong. The passive side, even turning around, cannot know where the blow will be struck. The troops were forced to be "smeared" along the front. The active side does not need to think about defense, because it can concentrate its forces in the chosen direction of the strike, even with a general parity of forces.
The Wehrmacht used the tactics of "ticks" - converging strikes, encirclement and destruction of troops, or mechanized groups went to the rear destroying warehouses, airfields, etc., and the infantry entered the breakthrough.

But this tactic also had weaknesses, which the Soviet commanders had already quite learned to use by the end of the 41st — a counterattack. Often - in another place, but nearby. And the Wehrmacht had a dilemma - to ignore the counterattack and lose there, but win here or abandon the operation and transfer forces to stop the threat.
It was possible to counterattack into the flank of the advancing, but for this, forces had to be "saved up" in advance, which at first were not particularly significant.

As for radio communications .... yes, a trifle, when, for example, a tank attack ended in the death of almost the entire unit, only because an undetected camouflaged anti-tank battery opened from the flank and snapped the cars one after the other, and the crews of the wrecked vehicles, at least and the living could not report the threat. And when they understood what was happening, then there was already no one to fight.

[strannik1985]

A little bit wrong

According to pre-war standards, the outfit of forces for an army defensive operation in the main direction assumed 12-15 SD, 1-2 TD, 4-5 AP RGK on the front 100-120 km. Due to the lead of the SD, it was 5-8, and they were not in the trenches, but were placed in the RPM with regiments and battalions to a depth of 40-60 (individual parts up to 100, for example 5 A KOVO) km. Given the superiority of the Germans in areas of breakthroughs (initiative) -without options.

As for the radio ....

Suppose this happened during the attack of the TK / MK / TA model 1943-1945. In addition to tanks (of which far from all are equipped with radios) in the building of 6 battalions of machine gunners and 1 motorcyclist, in the MSBr MinDn, LADn, in the building of the MinPolk, LAP, the division of the guards mortars (SAP do not count). During the battle, the commander of the brigade is required to attend the commander of the MinP / LAP (division) to organize artillery support and support the attack.

[maxcor1974]

An equally important factor is the lead in deployment. The fully mobilized German army attacked the peacetime army, which did not receive mobilization from the national economy: tractors, cars, people. And that is why the effectiveness of counterattacks of the mechanized corps was low — some tanks attacked, but people and artillery did not keep pace with them. Well, the connection ... I want to cry when you imagine how tank commanders climb out of the hatch during a battle and indicate the direction of attack with flag signals. Eternal memory to these heroes, who in such conditions delayed the Wehrmacht for minutes / hours / days / weeks, allowing them to complete the mobilization and evacuation.

[Leonid Anatolevich]

The armored forces of the Red Army were better radiated than the Germans, and indeed, the events near Brody - Exactly can still be attributed to surprise. What can you say about the battle of Senno in early July, more than two mechanized corps were perfectly prepared and equipped.

[ccsr]

Quote: Leonid Anatolievich

The armored forces of the Red Army were better radiated

I don’t know how much you are in the topic of the characteristics of German radio stations, and the training of signalmen in the Wehrmacht, but I only note that we did not reach the level of German signalmen until the end of the war, so your statement only indicates that you’re in communication with the spacecraft do not know.
By the way, a large number of captured German radio stations were installed on our aircraft because of their better quality and wider range of use, and I knew a person who developed adapters for their connection to the on-board network and was engaged in their installation in our aircraft.

[Essex62]

In the sense? What is the advantage of the radioification of our mechanized corps? The Germans on every penny-two, koi and tanks with a stretch can be called, the radio was in the infantry in each platoon. In the Red Army, only at the battalion level was equipped with walkie-talkies. Communication in battle is one of the keys to success.

[Fan-fan]

And I am surprised that there are still people who consider communication an insignificant element.

[Prometey]

Quote: iConst

Only a counterattack can seize the initiative. That’s why they threw not deployed, not finished units into counterattacks - there was no time.

To deliver a counterattack, it is necessary to concentrate forces, tightening reserves and exhausting the enemy in defensive battles. Only nobody really allowed to defend the Red Army - they threw forces in parts, striking with spread fingers.

[hohol95]

At the beginning of the war, the Red Army usturail the Wehrmacht in the main:

Utural or lost ???

[Proxima]

Quote: hohol95

At the beginning of the war, the Red Army usturail the Wehrmacht in the main:

Utural or lost ???

Don’t you jerk like that! Rarely do I have the opportunity to send a post from a PC, and there are such mistakes from an Android phone.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Proxima

That is, the German machine, fine-tuned in two years of war, primitively smashed the "raw" units of the Red Army in parts

The troops did not have time to occupy the border URs, because the malls were far away, and without it there was no time to concentrate

[Nikolai Korovin]

On 22.06.1941/5/7, the Red Army was generally significantly inferior to the Wehrmacht in number (about 8 million people versus XNUMX million people (I quote from memory, without specifying)) and in the east of the country it was necessary to keep more troops than Hitler could afford to leave in the west ... Plus Finland, Hungary, Romania (the Italian corps (later the XNUMXth Army) arrived at the front in July-August, i.e. the Italians did not participate in the June battles). The forces of Army Group Center were initially at least three times larger than those of the Western Front. Of course, in some places the command plugged holes randomly and threw everything that was at hand into battle on the move. But from the first days of the war, the Reserve Front was formed along the West. Dvina - Dnieper, on which, unfortunately, it was not possible to concentrate sufficiently large forces either. But he still played a certain role in slowing the Wehrmacht offensive (the battle of Smolensk). So it seems that Sergey's comment is somewhat inaccurate.

[hohol95]

Andrey be to you! Recently on the channel "Culture" there was a modern documentary film! And in the end it was stated - DO NOT consider the French as weaklings! During the entire war in 1940 with the Germans, they knocked out more tanks than on the "notorious Kursk Bulge"!
The Russians cannot be better than the French "at least in 1941"!
The size of the country just helped us ...
And the Ural Mountains ...
And the Mongol hordes ...

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: hohol95

And in the end it was stated - DO NOT consider the French as weaklings! During the entire war in 1940 with the Germans, they knocked out more tanks than on the "notorious Kursk Bulge"!

Quote: hohol95

The size of the country just helped us ...
And the Ural Mountains ...
And the Mongol hordes ...

And General Frost, and also this abnormal Hitler, who kept interfering with the fight of his generals all the time ...
Z.Y. I am sure - the armored legions of the steppe scuba divers-Buryas also played a role :))))

[hohol95]

I was not so funny - the channel is CULTURE!
And we are all amazed about the "French participation" in the VICTORY in WWII!

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: hohol95

I was not so funny - the channel is CULTURE!

Unfortunately, I do not see anything surprising here. The distortion of history has long been becoming the norm rather than the exception. And for the revival of historical justice, people who have no idea either about history or about justice are increasingly taking on ...

[hohol95]

... not about justice ...

Each nation has its own "justice" ...

[Proxima]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

And General Frost, and also this abnormal Hitler, who kept interfering with the fight of his generals all the time ..

Here is a classic of the genre, at first the Germans were disturbed by General Dust (a lot of complaints about the inability to tolerate this). Then they began to get General Slakot (maiden name - Rasputitsa). Hitler dreamed of the first frosts that would hold the ground for maneuver of Wehrmacht armored vehicles. And finally, General Frost came, again not what the doctor ordered ...

[Nikolai Korovin]

"The German people looked to the future, full of bright hopes: the war seemed over. No matter how bitter the losses were in German families, they should have been recognized as quite bearable, given the enormity of the success achieved. 27 people were killed, 074 were missing (of which only some died), 18 people were injured. " (K. Tippelskirch, Chief Quartermaster of the IV General Staff of the Ground Forces of the III Reich. "History of the Second World War." Published in Germany in 384, Published in the USSR in 111, under the editorship of Lieutenant General VF Vorobiev.
Exceptional accuracy! Tippelskirch does not provide data on the loss of tank troops.
As for the Kursk Bulge, which hohol95 calls "notorious", the venerable general generally avoids these words and does not mention the losses of the sides at all. And they are known. During the defensive phase of the Battle of Kursk (for the Red Army), the Wehrmacht suffered irrecoverable losses (i.e., killed, captured and seriously wounded, who could not return to service) 94-96 thousand people. The losses of the Red Army in this phase of the battle were comparable. Irrecoverable losses of the Wehrmacht during the Oryol operation of the Red Army - about 92 thousand people, the losses of the Red Army - about the same. During the Belgorod-Kharkov operation, the irrecoverable losses of the Wehrmacht are estimated at 109-114 thousand people, the losses of the Red Army are about the same.
So, during the battle at the "notorious" Kursk Bulge, the irrecoverable losses of the Wehrmacht amounted to about 300 people. For the entire "Battle for France", considering that the irrecoverable losses include about 000% of the wounded, they do not exceed 20 people. It is generally accepted that the losses of the Wehrmacht in armored vehicles during the entire battle amounted to about 70 units (irrecoverable about a quarter), the Red Army - about the same, but irrecoverable losses - up to half. It is interesting how, having inflicted 000 times less losses on the Wehrmacht for the entire "Battle for France" than the Red Army during the Battle of Kursk, the French managed to knock out more German tanks than the Red Army on the "notorious" Kursk Bulge, i.e. not less than 1600!
Tippelskirch did not disclose the number of German troops and tank forces at the time of the invasion of France. But according to Wikipedia (sorry, sir), and sometimes it can be generally trusted, the Wehrmacht forces on the Western Front (i.e., before the invasion of France) had 2488 tanks.
Thus, hohol95 believes that the Wehrmacht from June 5 to June 14 (the capture of Paris) lost at least 2/3 of the tanks. So why did he still enter Paris? The French were supposed to enter if not in Berlin (far away), then at least in Munich and Hanover!
So.
Keitel’s replica at the sight of the French delegation at the Nuremberg trials is quite understandable: - And did these also defeat us?

[hohol95]

As for the Kursk, which hohol95 calls "notorious", the venerable general generally avoids these words and does not mention the losses of the parties at all.

Dear Nicholas! It's good that you left quotes for the word - the notorious!
But this is exactly how the "lights of freedom and democracy" want to make us think!

As for the Kursk Bulge, which hohol95 calls "notorious", the venerable general generally avoids these words and does not mention the losses of the sides at all.
According to the journalist, in this battle, the Soviet army could not win, so the Victory Monument on Prokhorovsky Field, which was erected in memory of those killed in a tank battle near the village in July 1943, should be "immediately" demolished. “Recent research, based on undoubtedly real photographs, confirms that Prokhorovka had neither a Soviet victory, nor even a grandiose tank battle,” Kellerhoff wrote.

Thus, hohol95 believes that the Wehrmacht from June 5 to June 14 (the capture of Paris) lost at least 2/3 of the tanks. So why did he still enter Paris? The French were supposed to enter if not in Berlin (far away), then at least in Munich and Hanover!
So.

This started with this comment of mine -

Recently on the channel "Culture" there was a modern documentary film! And in the end it was stated - DO NOT consider the French as weaklings! During the entire war in 1940 with the Germans, they knocked out more tanks than on the "notorious Kursk Bulge"!

The film was shown on November 3rd or 4th! So, send all subsequent questions to the managers of the "Culture" channel!

[Cheerock]

DO NOT think of the French as weaklings! During the entire war in 1940 with the Germans, they knocked out more tanks than on the "notorious Kursk Bulge"!

Do not bullshit. Read Guderian. The French did not deliver any special problems to his tanks.

[novel66]

Zhukov and Tymoshenko are the true creators of 41 of the year

[Pavel57]

Creators of defeat defeats? Rather, their contribution to this was.

[strannik1985]

The creators of everything are victories and defeats. Stalin, Zhukov, Tymoshenko.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Quote: strannik1985

The creators of everything are victories and defeats. Stalin, Zhukov, Tymoshenko.

Ordinary people won this victory, under the leadership of Stalin, Zhukov, Tymoshenko.

[Pavel57]

In the war of the economies of the USSR, he won the first year: he managed to carry out the planned evacuation of industry. Without this, victory was impossible.

[Mcar]

Quote: Pavel57

In the war of the economies of the USSR, he won the first year: he managed to carry out the planned evacuation of industry. Without this, victory was impossible.

I also noticed that in such an important topic, a respected historian did not touch on this issue. Everyone was happy and surprised at the miscalculations of Russian emigrants, mathematicians and other German specialists. But what did not analyze such massive miscalculations and reality? Why such a mismatch?

The Nazis did not simply encounter a Russian soldier. Remaining Russian, it was already a Soviet soldier - therefore the emigrant miscalculated. And the fierce rebuff, meaningless from the German point of view, was not only because Moscow was behind. Behind was still the Soviet, popular power and socialist system. I don’t know how in WWI, but in WWII every soldier knew that if something happened to him, his family would be warmed by popular power and fed. Do not be lost in one word. And this is already a lot - to die with a light heart, knowing that nothing bad will happen to family and friends.

The topic is very correct, I approve. It is necessary to fill this gap. And most of them only know about the feat and fortitude of the Brest Fortress. And there are thousands of them, nameless heroes who, in fact, saved both the country and all of us living now. That's what movies and TV shows need to be made about, and not what they show on TV.

Here, only one thing was superfluous - there was no need to drag religion into this subject. None.

[meandr51]

Yu.I. Mukhin in the series of books "War and We" carried out an interesting comparative calculation of the bravery and firmness of the Russian troops in the 1st MV and in the 2nd. The ratio of killed, wounded and captured soldiers and officers of our army has been investigated. Conclusion: in the Second World War, the bravery and resilience of the commanders increased 10 times, and the soldiers 4 times. It seems to me that this is not far from the truth.

[Mcar]

Quote: meandr51

Yu.I. Mukhin, in the series of books "War and We", an interesting comparative calculation of the bravery and firmness of the Russian troops in the 1st MV and in the 2nd is carried out. The ratio of killed, wounded and captured soldiers and officers of our army has been investigated. Conclusion: in the Second World War, the bravery and resilience of commanders increased 10 times, and soldiers 4 times.

Yes, I read. Like the title "If it weren't for the generals."

According to other sources (without dividing into soldiers / officers), the ratio of killed / captured was as follows:
RI in PMV for 1 killed 1,6 prisoners
USSR in WWII for 1 killed 0,5 prisoners
Those. the army between the two world wars became three times stronger.

[shura7782]

Ndaaaaaa ,,,,,

Quote: meandr51

courage calculation

......... (((Absurdity!

Quote: meandr51

Researched

........... (((Not to the same extent.
Andrey., The author you are referring to, of course a patriot, but never a specialist in such topics. And the primitive method of calculating his "research" is puzzling.
Yu.I. Mukhin is not even a military historian, but a publicist who raises patriotic topics. "Calculations" is not his topic.

So what is courage measured in? And heroism in what units?

[Mcar]

Quote: shura7782

So what is courage measured in? And heroism in what units?

Well, and what are you clinging to?

Not courage, but stamina. Feel better?

Mukhin, yes, he is not an archival historian, and sometimes he goes too far in something. But he does it not from evil, and the excess is not in the wrong direction. I don’t like it, so what’s the problem - take it and spend five years in the archives and determine for yourself how many hundredths of a percent who made mistakes and where.

[shura7782]

McAr (Alexander)
Alexander, it is in vain that you think that, as the saying goes, "I decided to ruffle the Lord's beard." Moreover, in general I do not feel antipathy towards Yuri Ignatievich Mukhin. It doesn't matter what figures he came to based on what he personally had at the time of the calculations. His method of this "counting" does not stand up to criticism. But there will be followers of this "theory" with their initial data and will compare the courage of the Nazis, Finns, spirits, etc. with our soldiers. Comparative assessments will appear, disputes over who is more accurate. Are you offering me this? As a B / D participant, the very idea of ​​such "calculations" seems wild to me ..

[Mcar]

Quote: shura7782

As a B / D participant, the very idea of ​​such "calculations" seems wild to me ..

There is nothing wild here. There is no other way to determine the resilience of troops.

I have already cited data on how the army’s resilience increased from WWI to WWII. Our army. But look at other armies:

France killed / captured
- PMV ratio: 2,7: 1
- 1940 ratio: 1:18
As you can see, the resistance with a very high fell, and very much. Even in Poland, the ratio in 1939 was less: 1: 6,3

Of course, there are errors. Surely among those killed there were those who would gladly go over to the side of the enemy an opportunity, and among those who were captured, there were those who would never do it voluntarily (for example, they were unconscious). Nevertheless, this is the only way to understand the degree of army resilience, its readiness to stand to death at the frontiers.

[shura7782]

Alexander, in fact, there were many authors of such calculations. Figures for every taste. In my opinion, Sokolov was blasted for low performance, and for the highest score of another author, he was taken to heaven. This is me about the objectivity of information. Anyway! I looked at the book of memory of our region. The layout is approximately the following. Of all the 279397 people called up during the B / D period: 1/3 survived, 1/3 died, 1/3 went missing. How is courage, coefficient, ratio, durability, efficiency etc. calculate?

[Mcar]

Do you enjoy the banter?

Quote: shura7782

I looked at the book of memory of our region.

Area resistance? It is fresh.

Quote: shura7782

How is courage, coefficient, ratio, durability, efficiency etc. calculate?

Efficiency and courage? I do not know. The durability of the army is the ratio of the dead to the surrendered.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: McAr

and in the Second World War, every soldier knew that if something happened to him, his family would be warmed by popular power and fed

What did the soldier know from the order that the families of the surrender would be shot?

[Mcar]

Quote: Pilat2009

Quote: McAr

and in the Second World War, every soldier knew that if something happened to him, his family would be warmed by popular power and fed

What did the soldier know from the order that the families of the surrender would be shot?

You would have less savory yellow cranberries from the 90s. By the way, and how does this vomit taste?

From order No. 270, dated August 16, 1941:

I order:

1. Commanders and Political Workers, during the battle, tearing off the insignia and deserting to the rear or surrendering to the enemy, considered malicious deserters, families of which are subject to arrest as families of oath-destroying and betraying deserters.

To oblige all senior commanders and commissioners to shoot on the spot such deserters from the commanders.

Go ahead, the liberals haven’t told you that, right? And then there’s something! It turns out it was only about the families of commanders and political workers. And besides, not shooting - arrest.

All of you, who grew up in the current disastrous time, cannot even imagine that families of the kind, about whom it is in the order, would shoot their own "heroes" themselves, if only give them the opportunity. Then the whole country was like a single Taras Bulba, well, remember - "how I gave birth to you ..."

Be ashamed!

[Mestny]

You would have such rubbish in this situation - see how you will rejoice at the arrest of your own children and family. How would you be ashamed there.
What is arrest in those years - I am sure you know very well. What does this mean for man - too.
And after all this, such a copper-headed pathos. It is at least dirty.
Be ashamed.

[ezdiumno ru]

Why is this present time - foul ???

[Mcar]

Quote: ezdiumno ru

Why is this present time - foul ???

Everything for sale. Nothing sacred.

PS. Nothing changes from the number of punctuation marks ,,,,,,,,,,, right? So why ink wasted?

[ezdiumno ru]

And there is sacred. And not everything is for sale.

(I spend my ink as I want) :)

[Pilat2009]

Quote: McAr

Go ahead, the liberals haven’t told you that, right? And then there’s something! It turns out it was only about the families of commanders and political workers

Well, firstly, the commanders are people too, for example, Karbyshev was taken prisoner, so what? families of the Red Army soldiers who surrendered to captivity should be deprived of state [c.239] benefits and aid. "

By the way, if you apply this order to the son of Stalin, Yakov, then it follows that Stalin himself needs ....

[Pilat2009]

Quote: McAr

that families of the kind, about whom it is in the order, themselves would have shot their such "heroes", if only give them the opportunity

About 4,5 million were captured - 1.8 million turned back and let's shoot them

[victor50]

Quote: McAr

And there are thousands of them, nameless heroes who, in fact, saved both the country and all of us living now. That's what movies and TV shows need to be made about, and not what they show on TV.

There is a great movie on the "Squad" theme. You look and understand - they could not win! Under no circumstances!

[Albert1988]

Quote: Pavel57

In the war of the economies of the USSR, he won the first year: he managed to carry out the planned evacuation of industry. Without this, victory was impossible.

Actually, the Germans were unable to figure out this feat of evacuating industry and setting up its work in a new place, and they still are not able to understand what was accomplished during the war ...

[novel66]

no, their whole plan could not lead to anything else

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Quote: novel xnumx

Zhukov and Tymoshenko are the true creators of 41 of the year

The true creators were simple people who won with Heroism, under the leadership of Zhukov and Tymoshenko.

[novel66]

about victory - yes, but all the failures of 41 years on this couple

[sabakina]

Quote: novel xnumx

about victory - yes, but all the failures of 41 years on this couple

Roma, but didn’t Zhukov show at KShU where and how Hitler would advance? Didn’t he show how the situation will develop?

[novel66]

Glory and what ??? The western direction was covered by incomplete divisions, the defense of which was cut many times more than expected, and the tanks were withdrawn from them to replenish the mechanized corps

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: novel xnumx

about victory - yes, but all the failures of 41 years on this couple

And of course the Glavkoverh at nothing! He and comrade Beria are beyond jurisdiction!

[Fan-fan]

It seems that there are documents that Stalin intervened, for example, banned the withdrawal of troops from Kiev and we received hundreds of thousands of prisoners there. Who's guilty? Stalin. But fortunately, by the end of the war, he realized his mistakes and began to listen more to the generals.

[your1970]

Quote: Fan-Fan

Who's guilty? Stalin.

Only now the military was solving one military task, and Stalin had to solve the two military and economic. Holding Kiev allowed time to be spent - necessary for the evacuation of industry. It was the economic task that was accomplished, even at such a terrible price.

[strannik1985]

NCOs and NHSs do not make a political decision about the attack, cannot announce the start of mobilization. This is the competence of the political leadership of the country.

[antivirus]

You forget the author of the organization of mobilization and the system of life "rear and army are united" - VKPB

[Pavel57]

The NKVD was engaged in the organization of evacuation. And it was prepared before the start of the war.

It is to the Khrushchev interpretation of history that the war was sudden.

[Nick]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

Quote: novel xnumx

Zhukov and Tymoshenko are the true creators of 41 of the year

The true creators were simple people who won with Heroism, under the leadership of Zhukov and Tymoshenko.

The Supreme Commander was I.V. Stalin.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Of course he, under his leadership, everyone served and worked.

[ccsr]

Quote: novel xnumx

Zhukov and Tymoshenko are the true creators of 41 of the year

Well, the command of the border districts seems to be not responsible for the preparation of troops and raising them on alert - so what is your statement to understand?
It's easy to blame everything on Tymoshenko and Zhukov, although I do not justify their indecision at a meeting with Stalin, but then the question arises why Zakharov, the district chief of staff, did what the commanders Pavlov and Kirponos could not do already on June 22.
Maybe you should not so primitively evaluate the actions of the leadership of the Red Army on the eve of the war in order to understand why the 1941 tragedy happened?

[novel66]

Give links to literature?

[ccsr]

Quote: novel xnumx

Give links to literature?

Better give the answer yourself to understand how much you are in the subject. And I probably read the literature more than you, that's why I want to understand what you can offer me.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: ccsr

And I probably read more of you literature ...

Md

[novel66]

What mdya ...

[novel66]

as far as I know, do you know Kozinkin? in his books the answer is obvious. retell uninteresting

[ccsr]

Quote: novel xnumx

as far as I know, do you know Kozinkin?

Sign.

Quote: novel xnumx

in his books the answer is obvious.

Not everything can be agreed, what he writes about, but besides Kozinkin, have you read anything else?

Quote: novel xnumx

retell uninteresting

And do not - better in your own words show your understanding of the problems of the spacecraft on the eve of the war.

[novel66]

besides all the problems associated with multiple superiority in tanks and aircraft? Zhukov decided it is easy, do you need to talk about plans for a counter strike?

[ccsr]

Quote: novel xnumx

apart from all the problems associated with multiple superiority in tanks and aircraft

Yes, there was no multiple superiority in the western districts in equipment and weapons - where did the firewood come from?

Quote: novel xnumx

Do you need to talk about plans for a counter strike?

Tell us, especially with an indication of the documents, where this "counter strike" is indicated as an MANDATORY operation of the first days of the war.

[novel66]

where are the firewood from?

offhand - at least a three-volume "military history of the fatherland"

indicating documents

if there was such a document - not to demolish Zhukov’s head, but otherwise it’s difficult to explain the concentration of troops in the south-westerly direction, with the strike expected in the center, you just don’t need about the intelligence that overslept

[ccsr]

Quote: novel xnumx

offhand - at least a three-volume "military history of the fatherland"

This is not an answer - can you give a link to a text or a table?

Quote: novel xnumx

if there was such a document - not to demolish Zhukov’s head, but otherwise it’s difficult to explain the concentration of troops in the southwestern direction,

Did you know that the density of troops per kilometer of the border in the ZAPOVO and PribOVO was higher than in KOVO? What "concentration of troops" are you saying here, considering the total number of troops in KOVO on June 22 and the territory of the district?
Strange, but it seems you are not at all in the subject, and are trying to advise me to read something else from the literature. Here is how things were with the density of troops on June 22:

"Table 6. Formations planned to cover and defend the state border of the USSR for May June 1941 {97}"

http://militera.lib.ru/h/1941/02.html
From the table, the ratio of ZapOVO and KOVO divisions is 44 and 61, respectively, and this ratio is approximately 1: 1,4. With a border length ratio for these districts of 1: 1,8 (470 and 860 km, respectively), even a first-year cadet will realize that in KOVO the concentration of troops per kilometer of the front was lower than in ZAPOVO.
So in which "three volumes" did you see the "concentration" of troops in KOVO on June 22?

[novel66]

In your opinion, we just won the border battle, and the story went differently .... do not believe Oleg, read Martirosyan (not Garik)

[ccsr]

Quote: novel xnumx

In your opinion, we just won the border battle,

We lost the border battles primarily because the troops of the three districts did not take up positions on the cover plan at least an hour or two before the Wehrmacht attack. And there is a lot of evidence that many units woke up after an artillery bombardment or bombing, and this suggests that we could not even raise our troops on time. Why did Cherevichenko and Zakharov avoid such losses, did not think?

Quote: novel xnumx

read Martirosyan

Martirosyan did not serve in the army, so he hardly knows how everything is arranged in it, especially in the higher military bodies. It would be better if he wrote why the NKVD did not cope with the task of liquidating German agents in the pre-war period, but for some reason no one wants to investigate this painful issue. And because of the sabotage and espionage of German agents, we suffered so many losses in 1941 that we sometimes wonder if Beria really was a foreign spy, which he was accused of in 1953.

[your1970]

Quote: novel xnumx

if there was such a document - not to demolish Zhukov’s head, but

If there was such a document, it would have arrived at a unit of at least the district and army levels. And the Germans, having received it, would not have waved them to wave for propaganda purposes, saying that the USSR wanted to attack us.

[novel66]

And this too! thank you

[Deathmaker]

July 29, 1941 Stalin removes Zhukov from the post of Chief of the General Staff
You have a short 41st year.

[strannik1985]

In general, pre-war decisions somehow laid down the results of the company in 1941, the removal of Zhukov here does not fundamentally change anything.

[novel66]

Offsets, mind you, where were the Germans by this time?

[Deathmaker]

Can you handle it yourself? The biggest losses (suddenly) began after the removal of Zhukov.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu3p7dxrhl8

[novel66]

funny ... and the Bialystok ledge? and the July tank pogrom? don't pray for Zhukov - he’s not a damn icon

[ccsr]

Quote: Deathmaker

July 29, 1941 Stalin removes Zhukov from the post of Chief of the General Staff
You have a short 41st year.

Given the date of his appointment as chief of the General Staff, and the fact that he was the commander of the district for a little more than six months, many of the accusations against Zhukov generally look ridiculous, if only because he had no experience at all in the central office. Who pulled him to this post, of course, is an interesting question, and who told Stalin that he would manage, is also important. But I consider hanging all dogs on Zhukov for the failure of the Red Army in 1941 just mean-spirited, although he could have influenced the decisions made. Only who would listen to him with such experience as the leadership of the General Staff, and given the fact that he actually succeeded Shaposhnikov after six months from the moment he left, and that was authority for Stalin. Those who have experience in the service are well aware that such a career takeoff of Zhukov could not but affect the activities of the General Staff, and the decisions made in the People’s Commissariat of Defense, and this all subsequently affected our losses.

[maxcor1974]

novel66 (novel)
Zhukov and Tymoshenko are the true creators of 41 of the year

You are talking nonsense. Although Napoleon was in their place, a similar outcome would be. There are objective reasons about which I wrote above.

[novel66]

Rave? Fine, what was the western direction covered with?

[Serg65]

Hi Roma!

Quote: novel xnumx

What covered the western direction?

The question must be posed differently! Why was the western direction poorly covered? The answer to this question will solve all the mysteries of the defeats of the summer of the 41 year ..... I think so!

[novel66]

big ones! there is an answer, but Zhukov’s praisers strongly dislike him

[Serg65]

I like it, I don’t like it, then why be clever and try to whitewash what was washed clean during Khrushchev?
After all, it would seem, take a look at the 21 card of June and the 22 card of June! If there are any convolutions in the head, then a lot is clarified ...
Here is a map of the Bialystok ledge on June 21

Here is a map of the outbreak of hostilities ..

But the scheme of the notorious pre-war KSHU ..

Those. "traitor" Pavlov acted on the basis of a pre-war plan drawn up on the basis of the results of that very KSHU! Only the Germans did not want to fight according to the Zhukovsky plan, but embarked on an adventure, striking the main blow in the center, and not to the north and Kiev, as Zhukov, Timoshenko and Stalin convinced by them assumed!

[novel66]

Well, Pavlov’s betrayal is that he didn’t bring troops to the BG according to the directive of June 18, and the Germans, yes, treacherous ... concentrated the troops in the center and hit in the center .. suddenly, naturally

[Serg65]

Quote: novel xnumx

did not bring troops to the BG

Roma, Kuznetsov and Kirponos were not distinguished by this ... but for some reason they are not traitors. It’s all Pavlov’s fault that the main blow of the Wehrmacht fell precisely on its Western front!

[novel66]

Serena, there were many miracles in the west, and the planes were not refueled and with the weapons removed. and guns with shot sights .. it really smelled of betrayal

[Serg65]

Roma, in order to understand this, you need to pass through yourself, understand and experience two pre-war months, only then can you declare this betrayal with responsibility, or these are ordinary daily actions according to the plans of the General Staff and reinsurance! Removal of sights, all 122-mm howitzers, this is not just off the shelf, this requires permission at least from the GAU of the Red Army, and Yakovlev had to coordinate these actions at least with Zhukov! You yourself know that the main thing in the army is to have a piece of paper with the words "Order" on your hands!

[novel66]

have on hand a piece of paper with the words "Order"!

and do not rush to perform ..

[Serg65]

That's right ... two to one .... will be canceled for sure!

[Blacksmith 55]

The Germans thought that they would "walk" in the USSR as well as in Europe. After all, 2 years of war in Poland, Benelux, France and other countries were a walk, a vacation.

[Alien From]

The persistence and heroism of Soviet soldiers is still visible everywhere in our area. Eternal memory to the fallen heroes !!!!!

[knn54]

Aloizych and generals could win the war with the USSR only ONE case if this war lasted three months. For a longer period, the Nazis had no money. And the Germans held out until 1945 due to the ability to fight.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Nicholas a little bit wrong.

Aloizych and the generals could win the war with the USSR only ONE case if this war lasted three months

Why didn’t they gain her then? They even had four months in reserve. It was not for them to fight with the Westerners, where they surrendered without a fight, but here in the first blows, they already got the shot. And immediately all of their grandiose plans came to fruition.

For a longer period, the Nazis did not have the means.

They just had the money, but there was no ability to fight in large territories and with a huge number of people. Since the Westerners practically did not fight with them, but voluntarily surrendered (Except for the British).

And the Germans held out until 1945 due to the ability to fight.

They survived due to the fact that they were supported by other countries and provided with everything necessary.

[knn54]

Sergey Sergeevich. in the fourth month they already "stalled".
About a large number of people?
And the same French lost, first of all, because of the "fifth column" that penetrated the ministries and staffs. And you think from a good life, Hitler agreed to the Vishy republic. And the defense of the Caucasus was forced to lead by Beria with the formations attached to him from the former border guards and the NKVD officers.
By the way, back in 1942, the British considered Timoshenko the best commander, whose fault in the failure of the Kharkov-Barvenkov operation was minimal.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Nikolay, I explain.

in the fourth month they already "stalled".

So it was practically, they have already received pugs. From this they did not win. And no three months there would help them win the war.

And think about how many MILLION "well-wishers" from among the Russians, Ukrainians, Baltic states. Poles (including voluntarily surrendered) fought on their side, for example, the Lokot Republic.

I figured it out! With the help of these forces and reinforcements, they lasted until 1945.

And the same French lost, first of all, because of the "fifth column", which penetrated the ministries. Staffs.

Nobody fought there to lose or win, without a fight they surrendered their country (with the exception of the partisans), hiding behind the fact that they allegedly did not want to destroy their country.

By the way, back in 1942, the British considered Timoshenko the best commander, whose fault in the failure of the Kharkov-Barvenkov operation was minimal.

As a strategist and colonel, he was good, but ordinary soldiers always win victories and assaults.

[knn54]

We figured it out by 1944 and take it away. Only the Hungarians stood to the end.
And I don’t believe in the tales of General De Gaulle about the French poppies - there were several sabotage groups led by the British.
Partisan movement. As a real force, there were only in Yugoslavia and in Greece.
By the way, I recommend everyone to read: Georgy Ivanov-Shainovich - the Russian-Polish national hero of Greece.
The assaults are won by real soldiers, yes, but with an EXPLANATORY commander, little blood.
Take the assault on the most powerful land fortress of Keniksberg in the shortest possible time and (a unique case), when the losses of the attackers were much less than those of the defenders.
I think that very few website visitors could communicate with participants in the Second World War (and not only), for example, 20 years after the end of the war.
They (then boys). Having begun reading N. Shpanova, sincerely believed that we would be in Berlin two weeks after the start of the Second World War.
By the way, Moscow was thoroughly mined (just in case), which also says a lot.
And last, Tymoshenko was a marshal, not a colonel.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

So be it Nikolay and I’ll explain these words too.

Estimated, and by 1944 and take it away.

What to take away? If possible, in more detail.

And I don’t believe in the tales of General De Gaulle about the French poppies - there were several sabotage groups led by the British.

It is not clear what you wrote? If you had guerrillas introduced, then yes, the British sponsored them (with everything necessary), and the strike force consisted of the French. Whoever stands there and directs these movements, but their country, they surrendered without a fight and this is a fact. Their partisans, at least somehow tried to resist, than to sit idle at all.

Partisan movement. As a real force, there were only in Yugoslavia and in Greece.

Yes, of course, the Frenchman was very far away for them, well, at least they tried to resist it.

By the way, I recommend everyone to read: Georgy Ivanov-Shainovich - the Russian-Polish national hero of Greece.

After the 1917 revolution, there were a lot of such heroes who moved to live in other countries.

The assaults are won by real soldiers, yes, but with an EXPLANATORY commander, little blood.

Yes, this also exists, only those who, together with the soldiers, sat in the trenches and led the operation on the front line, and not from the headquarters in the rear.

I think that very few website visitors could communicate with participants in the Second World War (and not only), for example, 20 years after the end of the war.

What’s this all about? many still have grandparents who went through this war. Well, I understand that what you had to introduce, partly it is.

They (then boys). Having begun reading N. Shpanova, sincerely believed that we would be in Berlin two weeks after the start of the Second World War.

So it was, the morale of the soldier, always needs to be maintained. I hope you understand what I had to introduce.

By the way, Moscow was thoroughly mined (just in case), which also says a lot.

There was, but in time the Germans, got cuffs and fled immediately back.

And last, Tymoshenko was a marshal, not a colonel.
Reply

But the colonel wasn’t talking about, it was written that he was a commander, and not a colonel, these are completely different things.
PS

[iConst]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

and voluntarily surrendered (Except for the British).

Well, yes, the limes were simply screwed from Dunkirk on all available craft and gave it as the greatest help!
Rommel (not the most talented general) drove them across Africa as lousy in a bathhouse, until they cut off the supplies of ammunition to the German-Italian troops by sea and brought a cloud of armored vehicles to themselves.
In Southeast Asia, the Japanese inserted an enema after an enema of Brita, drove to Singapore, where they eventually heroically ... capitulated.

Cool warriors ...

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Quote: iConst

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

and voluntarily surrendered (Except for the British).

Well, yes, the limes were simply screwed from Dunkirk on all available craft and gave it as the greatest help!
Rommel (not the most talented general) drove them across Africa as lousy in a bathhouse, until they cut off the supplies of ammunition to the German-Italian troops by sea and brought a cloud of armored vehicles to themselves.
In Southeast Asia, the Japanese inserted an enema after an enema of Brita, drove to Singapore, where they eventually heroically ... capitulated.

Cool warriors ...

England, unlike other Western countries, was not surrendered by the German and introduced a struggle against them.

[iConst]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

England, unlike other Western countries, was not surrendered by the German and introduced a struggle against them.

They just got lucky - they stayed behind a puddle. If it were not for the English Channel, they would have repeated the fate of France. At the beginning of the war, the British did not even have a decent tank. But Hitler did not dare to transfer troops across the strait. Yes, and Goering pissed him off, promising to bring Britain to its knees by bombing. But the limes here fought fiercely, that's a fact.
Plus, radar was already in its infancy and they learned about the approach of the bombers in advance, which gave time to raise the planes to intercept. In this situation, they had an advantage. And Goering retreated.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

Why didn’t they gain her then? They even had four months left

Well, actually they stopped moving to Moscow and turned to Kiev. Hitler ordered.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Well, actually they stopped moving to Moscow and turned to Kiev. Hitler ordered.

Of course, they stepped back after they got RUSSIAN BOOTS IN THE MUDS.

[Ros 56]

They would have fought a lot if all of Europe, including neutral Sweden, hadn’t worked for them, and even here they kind of recalled that the striped type Ford also threw them, but they were led past Nuremberg. No army is capable of anything without rear support; these are not the Middle Ages.

[polar fox]

Quote: knn54

Aloizych and generals could win the war with the USSR only ONE case if this war lasted three months. For a longer period, the Nazis had no money. And the Germans held out until 1945 due to the ability to fight.

zaminusli you ... here, no matter how one Aloizych was. the entire Wehrmacht geyropa worked for a salary with bonuses and doppike. and Czechs and Romanians and French (well, except for Serbs and Albanians with Greeks) .so that the Germans had everything plenty.

[Deathmaker]

They would certainly have won it if there had been another France in the place of the USSR. The calculations of the German General Staff did not include the sacrifice of an entire nation.

[Nikolay Ivanov_5]

Intoxicated by victories and conquests in Europe, the nation of "supermen" imagines itself to be more exclusive and entitled to oppress, enslave, humiliate, rob and exterminate other peoples. When the USSR realized their true intentions, then our people began to gather with all their will for a fierce confrontation and began to smash these "supermen".

[Nick]

Quote: knn54

And the Germans held out until 1945 due to the ability to fight.

Rather, due to the industrial potential of the whole of Europe, which worked for Hitler, and the human resources that the Wehrmacht used. Hungarians, French, Italians, Romanians, even Poles, they all fought on the eastern front.

[jonht]

According to many recollections of veterans, in the first months of the war, the main problem was COMMUNICATION. Many units and subdivisions did not receive orders on time and acted separately. This is one of the main reasons for the many "cauldrons" of our troops.

[tatarin1972]

Not only communication, there are many reasons, the imperfection of the combat manuals at that time, planning errors, low mobility, and these are not all the reasons.

[anjey]

There was another nuance here, the Nazis were going to destroy us and not just win, it became clear from the first days of the war, the executioners from the SS very clearly demonstrated this.
The world of capital brought in an irreconcilable battle, the bloody regime of the Nazis, for which he indirectly advocated both himself and the World of the Communist International, expressed by the world's first socialist state-USSR.
So the fight was really not comparable to Hitler's military "Blitzkrieg" in Europe.

[Pavel57]

The International was just an excuse; the destruction was planned precisely for Russian civilization.

[anjey]

And the Jews, gypsies ??? Read about Hitler's plan "Ost" ..

[Fan-fan]

Yes, they considered us not to be people, along with gypsies and Jews.

[AU Ivanov.]

And here is socialism-communism? Russians were destroyed on a racial basis.

[anjey]

Nazism thus supported and brought to power German industrial capitalism, seeing them as defenders, primarily from the ideas of communism-socialism spreading around the world, so that the Second World War in the USSR was not only for resources and territories, but also for ideas, communists were shot first according to Hitler’s order, and his racial, hatred ideas, to destroy the peoples of the USSR, concerned not only Russians .....

[AU Ivanov.]

Let's start with the fact that Hitler was a national SOCIALIST. And the fight against Bolshevism was only a pretext. They wanted to destroy us, the peoples of Russia, as "Untermines". It is an old dream of the West - to destroy Russia, regardless of the form of its government.

[anjey]

I wrote everything to you, not only Russians, but also Ukrainians, Belarusians, Tatars and Kazakhs, and many other peoples of the USSR. The capitalists of the world were afraid of communist ideas, national socialism was closer to them, they turned a blind eye to the many cruelties of the Nazis, the clash of two systems it was inevitable, but the winning prize - the territory and resources of the USSR would be huge, it was not in vain that Hitler tried to agree with Britain on an alliance against the USSR. The British were safe and probably not in vain, believing that the two systems would weaken and destroy each other, leaving all their laurels to the Anglo-Saxons, otherwise the Red Banner would probably have been in London, on the parliament building .., Hitler scared away many with his treachery and manners of a tyrant ...

[AU Ivanov.]

What other communists? The amount of natural resources in our country does not depend on who we have in power: the emperor, the secretary general or the president. Moreover, the communist ideas in Germany were unpopular: the Germans had a higher standard of living and the social sphere was much better than in the USSR.

[anjey]

No la-la, about the standard of living of the Germans, after the First World War, communist ideas were even very popular in Germany, what is the November revolution of 1918, the creation of the Communist Party of Germany, the Soviet Bremen and Bavarian republics, so the Nazis successfully seized the moment and in the end defeated the Communist Party of Germany, with the support of the capitalists ..... Of course, excuse me, but you do not know history well, read more and do not say nonsense, "and the communists, socialists or Nazis" , and indeed provocative Rabinovism, something smelled ...

[AU Ivanov.]

Remember: wars, other than civil wars, are fought either for resources, or for territories, or for spheres of influence. Everything else (ideology, religion) is just an excuse. Bolshevism, a bloody dictator like Hussein, "fraternal peoples" are nothing more than an excuse. Further: at the end of the 30s, the standard of living in Germany far surpassed the Soviet one and the ideas of National Socialism were much closer to the Germans than the communist ones. And leave the tales about the capitalists-communists to the young pioneers.

[anjey]

My dear, spheres of influence and resources are first of all conquered by ideologies, yes, it is to some extent an instrument of expansion and to deny the power of Nazism or communism in those days, it’s stupid, just like not to notice these sprouts of Western revanism, to in the form of praise of German Nazism in conjunction with the township, in the Baltic states and in Ukraine.
In fact, the reactionary forces pulled out the executioner's old tool from dusty chests, and the fact that large global industrial and financial corporations are behind this, I have no doubt that essentially politicians are only talking heads, this main component of the current world order.

[anjey]

And the "fairy tales", as you put it, about communists, Nazis and capitalists, are written in blood by tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people on Earth. And the worst thing is that this "chronicle" continues and will continue ...

[anjey]

The fact that any ideology is the treatment of the masses to fulfill important goals, for the further development of nations, such as the seizure of territories, resources, etc., etc., no one argues with this, as the Western one for example, with freedom, democracy, individualism and motivation for wealth Although in many ways it does not correspond to what was stated, it finds a response among the masses, like the most fundamental - patriotism, love for the motherland, respect and loyalty to their historical traditions, glorification of their achievements, people always need some kind of idea for moving forward, developing for the future and will this ideology be moral or too immoral it all comes from the goals and methods of development of society ...

[Pilat2009]

Quote: anjey

otherwise the Red Banner would probably have been in London, on the parliament building.

How are you going to cross the English Channel?

[anjey]

Of course, I went too far in the alternative, but the Red Army would have solved this technical issue if the British had the political will and status of the British as real enemies at that time, especially if the British would get involved with Hitler in a land campaign, their armed forces would also remain in our fields ....

[Pilat2009]

Quote: anjey

but the Red Army would solve this technical issue

Yeah, count how many only warships are needed to destroy the British fleet. And how will you supply the landed troops? Hitler also wanted to cross somehow. And Napoleon. And then he bombed with missiles.
And, yes, I don’t think that America will calmly look at it.

[sevryuk]

Russians (Great Russians) ... Ukrainians ... Belarusians are actually one people.

[anjey]

Communism united many nations at that time, and this was its Strength, I’m not sure that our country in those difficult and terrible years, under the bourgeois government, would have survived ..... so that, moreover, socialism and communism, everything is connected in a tangle of our history .....

[Dymik]

He grew up in Sevastopol. All childhood passed on the fields of past battles. Everything there was in fragments, cartridges and unexploded mines and shells (shells were constantly discharged in search of gunpowder) and the tol was smelted (It is hard to imagine what was going on during the Great Patriotic War !! The mass heroism of our people delights !! Eternal memory to our soldiers !!!

[sabakina]

Nikolay, those who managed to grow up not as a consumer and seller of air are not at all hard to imagine. It is hard to imagine what will happen after us ...

[Ros 56]

Of course, they understood that, despite the whole mess in the army, which led to the loss of almost all aviation in the west and retreat, they could not even cross the border in the north, and they rushed to the ears of the Romanians in the south. One Brest fortress gave them reason to think, not counting the rather strong resistance of the border outposts. In the first two weeks of the offensive, the German generals were very puzzled.
Indeed, none of the historians really analyzed the battles of the first two months of the war with all heroic positives and we will not be hypocrites, negative manifestations of our soldiers and commanders. At my very place, three uncles went to the front, only one returned, the rest were missing.

[sabakina]

Jura, sadly, is a man, even the Soviet is weak. There were those who gave up believing the Wehrmacht propaganda,

but there were those who believed in Stalin to the last patron. In my city there is a street to them. Yu. Smirnova ...

[Ros 56]

By the way, I read something about him in childhood, but I don’t remember the details, but I immediately remembered the name and surname.

[ccsr]

A good and truthful film about the fate of Stalin's son - such works are useful for understanding our history.
Of course, the fate of Serov is not at all connected with the fact that he was looking for evidence of the death of Jacob, but in general the film is highly professional and gives an idea of ​​the people of the Stalin era.

[seacap]

The West is learning from its mistakes, they do not hide it, completing what they failed in 41 today, they took this into account and changed their methods and approaches for the "final solution of the Slavic question." As the late Pole said, this will be done by themselves and at their own expense. Therefore, they cooked, actively encouraging their greed and lack of principle, and then used the country's leadership, the intelligentsia, actively encouraging the conversion of power into loot. the system of providing educational services, stamping "advanced consumers" without honor and conscience, destroyed social and international relations of society and the very common community of people, created inherited estate relations, replaced historical and cultural-moral values, the issue was resolved, the state was destroyed. So the same people who killed the country and betrayed their ideals and oath, all of them are still in power, at the "trough" in the colonial administration, therefore, the plunder of the country continues, the demographic collapse, the territory is being cleaned up, so the seemingly obvious issues hostile to the existence of the state, there is no such goal to make a great country out of a neo-colony. This will be monitored and not allowed through such external management organizations as the Central Bank and the Higher School of Economics, for this Gref is "drowning" for digital total control of all, without exception, the activities of each person and country (it would seem, where is Sberbank and where IT-technologies, only Sber The Central Bank and further the chain across the ocean), however, the overseas "masters" in the metropolis, seemingly being the trendsetters of everything and everything in IT technologies, do not even stutter about this, this applies only to slaves, untermens.

[Shelest2000]

I am afraid to imagine what would have happened to the USSR if the leadership of the country had people like the current "leaders" ...

[lexa333]

Eternal Glory to the Heroes

[Doc d]

1. The overheating left middle skating rink of the KV tank has not yet been indicated
2. The dampers in the DOSA at the border were old-style
3. Candles on fighter engines had to be changed after the third flight
4. The number of nippers in the repair shops was 78%, that is, did not correspond to the regular
Only a part brought what is written today in books.
As a result, the "Barbarossa" plan was implemented in the first 17 days of the campaign (read the plan). The first strategic echelon of the Red Army and part of the Second were defeated. Was there no mobilization? Was mobilization in October 1941, has the war been going on for a long time? Two giant boilers (Vyazma, Bryansk). Was it mobilized in the summer of 1942? Wehrmacht on the Volga.

[nikvic46]

It is necessary to restore all the names of those who died in the first days of the war. And those who went missing. The feat of the border guards is known to everyone. When there was the Arab-Israeli conflict, our outpost commander built and warned. He must open the package. And then we must join the ranks of the Soviet Army. This was already a new vision. We still do not know where our fathers, uncles, grandfathers died. My uncle went missing in the first days of the war. Another uncle was awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union (posthumously). Uncle himself showed me the newspaper. "As you can see, I was alive. And I was awarded the Order of the Red Star." And he considered it the right decision.

[7,62x54]

I didn’t understand anything, but it’s very interesting.

[Old Horseradish]

The Red Army was preparing to attack. As Stalin said, "we will have the most attacking army of all in the world." The troops were not taught to defend. Even the armored regulations did not contain how to behave in defense.

[AU Ivanov.]

You confuse two concepts: aggression and active defense with the subsequent offensive and transfer of hostilities to enemy territory.

[5-9]

The Red Army and the Wehrmacht, the only ones had an understanding of how the future maneuver war would be waged. Defense is a counterattack in the first place. The Germans thrashed Franks and Angles with their defensive gaze into dust in 3 weeks without superiority in the quantity and quality of equipment. And all of these defensive orders in our 41st Germans stupidly traveled a couple of tens of kilometers and we got another boiler. When an adversary has 10 times more cars than you, you’re not defending yourself ...

[Ali Kokand]

There was an order from Hitler to Guderian to turn his tanks south. And if he had not been, it is quite possible the Germans would have taken Moscow. Hitler was flattered by resources. And this decided the fate of Kiev. Kirponos is sorry, a good general was. There was no order to retreat to the end.

[Polvic1957]

I read more than half the comments, was unpleasantly disappointed with many posts. Sofa warriors ... (not all, fortunately). And the fact that the united Europe in the 41st opposed the USSR, no one noticed. In addition to the Germans, there were German troops: Italians, Spaniards, Romanians, Slovaks, Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, Portuguese, as well as units and units from the Bulgarians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, French, etc. The aggregate industrial potential and human resources exceeded the Soviet ones by 8 and 3,5 times, respectively. And many write that in the failures of 1941. need to blame Stalin and his commanders. If not for the stamina of a Soviet soldier, there would be NO VICTORY

[7,62x54]

VICTORY was forged not only at the front, but also in the rear.

[7,62x54]

The Soviet people in the Second World War defended their lifestyle, political system, their ideals. The people, the army and the party were indeed united. God forbid there will be a Great War now, whether the people will defend a regime whose officials regret the lack of a license to shoot citizens, or dealers sitting on a gas-oil pipe, is a big question. If the people do not support the government, then the Almaty, Poseidon, Prometheus will not help.

[AU Ivanov.]

The people defended their homeland. Not everyone was happy with the formation, especially the peasants, but they fought and fought heroically.

[About 2]

Rather, they died heroically.

[Fan-fan]

They fought because they saw that Stalin's two sons were also on the front line, shoulder to shoulder with ordinary people, and the sons fought other leaders. In this matter, the country was united.
And now, sons of Sechin, Rogozin and others, will they sit in the same trench with us? Then what kind of unity are we talking about?

[sevryuk]

That is, before the Soviet Union, there were no reasons for wars? Nude ...

[29dest]

I think the Germans in the first months realized that they were not France and Poland. Guderian recalls mentioned in his memoirs about this situation in the first two weeks of the offensive (about the demoralization of troops and losses.)

[AKS-U]

- "... since the beginning of the Second World War (and its beginning can be considered the invasion of German and Polish troops into Czechoslovakia)"
Great Russian Encyclopedia:
1. "In the fall of 1938, Germany occupied part of Czechoslovakia, and in the spring of 1939 - the whole Czech Republic (Slovakia was declared an" independent state ").
2. "V. m. Century. Began on September 1.9.1939, XNUMX, with the German attack on Poland."
Something like this at the beginning of WWII. There are some disagreements here. 1.9.1939 the war between Germany and Poland. September 3.9.1939, XNUMX, the allies of Poland - France and England declare war on Germany. A group of states in a state of war, in fact this is the beginning.

[AKS-U]

- "The Nazis already in the first days of the war realized that the promised" blitzkrieg "would not work - a victorious march on paper is one thing, real battles with the Red Army are quite another thing.
- Many details of the battles of several dozen border outposts are still unknown, as well as the fate of many border defenders. Among the irretrievable losses of border guards in battles in June 1941, more than 90% were “missing”
Not a single outpost (NONE) has wavered, stepped back, or surrendered!
During the month of the war with France, Germany lost 90 thousand soldiers, and in the first day of the war with the USSR - 360 thousand.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: AKS-U

and on the first day of the war with the USSR - 360 thousand.

You yourself think that they wrote. 360 thousand, God forbid, they lost for a year. Take a look at the breakdown by years of chtoli

[Edvid]

Quote: Proxima

At the beginning of the war, the Red Army usturail the Wehrmacht in the main: The Red Army hopelessly lost to the Germans by the number of troops simultaneously entering the battle... That is, the German machine, fine-tuned in two years of war, primitively smashed the "raw" units of the Red Army in parts. Unfortunately, we were doomed to suffer defeat at the beginning of the war.

////////////////////////////////////////////////// /
Units of the Red Army, commanded by regular officers who miraculously survived the repressions, fought very effectively in the first weeks of the war. The mediocrity of the command is due not only to the consequences of repression, but also to the policy of the "genius" Stalin, who "corrected" his strategic mistakes by shooting ...

[5-9]

God, what other repressions, and without them there were fictional problems? The number of the Red Army since 1938 has grown explosively, there was a stupid lack of officers, plus the low level of basic education of the Soviet population of those years - there is not much to train from (I'm not talking about who to plant for tank-planes). The Americans "in a guerrilla way" (in the sense of stupidly, without frills and fancy, they took in bulk) in the 44th fought (and just a little - they poured in see the Ardennes), because there was a similar problem, there were more divisions in the 44th than battalions in the 40th m.
Well, the discipline of the red commanders in the late 30s-41s is something with something ... Looking at them in Finnish correctly, Stalin planned the evacuation ... I sensed what would happen.

[ezdiumno ru]

According to the mind, after so many signals about the possible start of the war in May-June 41, the spacecraft should have been fully armed in the trenches since spring, with a supply of weapons, ammunition, fuel, and ammunition. Tanks were supposed to be pulled into the border and near areas (we had 25 thousand of them, almost 20 thousand were operational), at least 10 thousand. Moreover, with a supply of fuel and ammunition for a lot of gas stations. The same with aviation, artillery, etc.
So that the troops could fight, and not throw tanks without fuel and shells ...

[5-9]

Well, they would have pulled even more ... and what (you might think they did not pull together or did not try)? The directions of the main blows were not really revealed, they simply would have surrounded even more at the very beginning and that's it. Plus, when it was necessary, the Germans knocked through any defenses head-on, that Maginot, that the Crimean Isthmus ... When the Germans only in France took more trucks than in the entire Soviet national economy, it would not have been possible to "maneuver" them. And bare tanks do not cant ... only due to them and their losses and their blows back and forth, the Germans could not completely destroy the Red Army in the Border Battle.
In the 41st there was no solution to avoid defeat .... for this, another country was needed (industry, population, army, etc.).

[ezdiumno ru]

Naked tanks do not channel. That is, without fuel and shells.
In the first month, the spacecraft lost more than the Germans destroyed.
In addition, I did not write that "focus on the border."
Essno, to concentrate both at the border and in the near and far border areas with fuel and shell reserves.
But then we had T-34 and Kv-1 and Kv-2 in total more than their T-4.
And the rest were not competitors to them.

I say, Errors of preparation for war by the country's leadership and the General Staff. By the way, determining the directions of the main blow is their responsibility.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: 5-9

that Maginot

Maginos bypassed. Хз but it was necessary to finish on the old border of the UR so that the troops leaned on them. After all, some individual bunkers were surrounded for 2 days, and the warehouses were delayed

[ccsr]

Quote: ezdiumno ru

According to the mind, after so many signals about the possible start of the war in May-June 41, the spacecraft should have been fully armed in the trenches since spring, with a supply of weapons, ammunition, fuel, and ammunition.

And thus, they would give German intelligence a complete picture of our positions and forces involved in the cover plan to repulse the attack. I'm not saying that when troops sit in the trenches for such a long time, this not only dampens, but also disrupts the entire educational process. The trouble is not that the troops did not take up positions in the spring, but that a few hours before the attack they did not appear where they should have been located according to the plan for covering the district. This was the biggest tragedy of the first hours of the war, with which the chain of tragic events of 1941 began.

[ezdiumno ru]

1. And the Germans did not know our position and strength.

2. Yes, and figs, let them know. But they did not miss the attack.

3. Well, they did not sit in the trenches on a warm June of 41 years. But after 22.06.41, I had to sit for 4 whole years. In any weather and precipitation ...
Yes, and tens of millions of lives paid off.

[ccsr]

Quote: ezdiumno ru

And the Germans did not know our position and strength.

They did not know of course, given the fact that cover plans were being processed in May.

Quote: ezdiumno ru

2. Yes, and figs, let them know. But they did not miss the attack.

Nobody has missed him - the Directive b / n best proves this. Another thing is how its execution went - it was a serious miscalculation.

Quote: ezdiumno ru

But after 22.06.41, I had to sit for 4 whole years. In any weather and precipitation ...

This is due to the fact that we were attacked by the most powerful army in the world. Other countries could do nothing with the Wehrmacht, even in Africa.

Quote: ezdiumno ru

Yes, and tens of millions of lives paid off.

And we could destroy a similar number of Germans in 1945 - so do not confuse military losses with the common ones. This is primarily about our unsuccessful military operations of the outbreak of war.

[Sevastiec]

Any 'would' is always possible in theory and impossible, since history, as you know, does not have a subjunctive mood.

[ezdiumno ru]

Well, conclusions must be made, including by studying all the possibilities, including the subjunctive mood.

[Bare]

No one has ever won and will not defeat the Russians. This heightened sense of justice, independence is stored in DNA and, of course, in the spiritual beginning of being.

[ezdiumno ru]

If it were not for the gross failures in preparation for the war of the country's leadership, there would have been no battles near Moscow, Stalingrad, the blockade of Leningrad, the Kursk Bulge and 27 million dead. The war would end in 41 in the frontline by the defeat of German troops.

[About 2]

Marshal Malinovsky’s recently declassified diary speaks well of the big losses in the first months of the war, saying that the Red Army commanders from the regiment commander to the front commander had no idea how to conduct combat operations, there was a mess around. In my opinion, this is one of the main causes of colossal losses at the beginning of the war.

[ezdiumno ru]

It was Malinovsky who wrote that if the Stalinist repressions had not squandered almost half of the spacecraft’s command, Hitler would not have risked an attack.
When commanders with combat experience sit in the gulags, and captains and majors try to command divisions - do not expect good things.

[Mcar]

Quote: ezdiumno ru

It was Malinovsky who wrote that if the Stalinist repressions had not squandered almost half of the spacecraft’s command, Hitler would not have risked an attack.
When commanders with combat experience sit in the gulags, and captains and majors try to command divisions - do not expect good things.

Of course, we do not know about the Tukhachevsky conspiracy. Not a lordly thing is to know. Well, think about it - he was preparing a coup. What a trifle! Should we liberals worry about such trifles, we will eat sweetly under any authority. So?

Decapitated the army, you say? Nude Nude.
If we compare the composition of the Red Army with other armies, it turns out that the Red Army was the richest military commander. In 1939, there were 1 privates on the 6st officer of the Red Army, 29 in the Wehrmacht, 15 in the English army, 22 in the French, 19 in the Japanese.

But if it weren’t for Stalin’s repressions, then we would have 6 officers per ordinary. And then Hitler would not dare to attack - an officer with a rifle is much worse than an ordinary. Valuable thought, strategic. You would secretly inform her current MO. And what - 6 generals per fighter and all - who lift the tail against Russia, pulling it and whining run away.

[ccsr]

Quote: McAr

If we compare the composition of the Red Army with other armies, it turns out that the Red Army was the richest military commander. In 1939, there were 1 privates on the 6st officer of the Red Army, 29 in the Wehrmacht, 15 in the English army, 22 in the French, 19 in the Japanese.

In my opinion, you simply do not take into account that we had a large number of formations and units of reduced composition, including in the border districts. The country could not afford to keep all the spacecraft deployed deployed in full time, even in peacetime — no money was pledged for this in the budget. Yes, and 1939 is not typical of the Red Army, if only because it was at that time that a sharp increase in the armed forces of the USSR began, and growth continued constantly until June 22.

[Mcar]

Quote: ccsr

In my opinion, you simply do not take into account that we had a large number of connections and parts of a reduced composition

Not without this, I do not take into account a little.

But I take into account Goebbels' diaries, in which at the end of the war he lamented and regretted that Hitler had not carried out the similar purge of the army from ballast that Stalin had done before the war. Now, if this purge were not yet unknown, the German blitzkrieg might have succeeded.

[About 2]

Let me find out where and when Malinovsky wrote what you are talking about here? The problem was not that Stalin allegedly beat all the competent commanding staff, but that this most competent commanding staff simply had no idea how to fight! And you are here with your half-truth about the repression of the command staff.

[dmmyak40]

Quote: Leonid Anatolyevich

The armored forces of the Red Army were better radiated than the Germans, and indeed, the events near Brody - Exactly can still be attributed to surprise. What can you say about the battle of Senno in early July, more than two mechanized corps were perfectly prepared and equipped.

I wonder who and for what put you a plus? For an alternative point of view? It is enough to read a couple of recollections of our tankers, how the tragedy of the armored forces of the spacecraft in the first period of the war comes to mind.
Read the memoirs of Commissioner Popel 8 of the Ryabyshev mechanized corps. Will the opinion change, or is everything paid in advance?

[arcgrz]

Few people know that, under the direct instructions of Stalin, the foundations of future workshops and factories, which should have been evacuated in the event of war, were already laid deep in the rear. And not just evacuated, but deployed and launched as soon as possible in order to uninterruptedly supply the front with ammunition, weapons, tanks, airplanes.
Over the 30 years, at the initiative and insistence of I.V. Stalin, the process of moving industry to the East was organized, the Northern Sea Route was mastered, a network of railways and highways was built, strategic channels were built, new air routes were developed, the Northern and Pacific Fleets and world's largest submarine fleet
it is possible to deny that Stalin was an authoritative person for millions, either by meekness or by malice.

[primers]

The headline is very much like a newspaper duck. In the "early days" the Nazis could not think of anything like that.

[Brigadier]

In the war, they went on the attack with the cry: "For the Motherland! For Stalin!"

I wonder who will go into the "For Putin!" Attack today?
For some reason I think that there are no such "patriots" today!
Today hardly anyone wants to die for this "figure" and his entourage.
The people remember well his good deeds in the form of pension robbery and other "joys".

[old friend]

1. The pogrom in the Red Army in 1937-1938 is the main cause of all the disasters of 1941-1942. When the units are led by people who have jumped through 3-4 steps, do not wait for good. Figures for retired personnel today, thank God, are in the public domain (a completely egregious picture has developed in aviation). True, no one has yet done an analysis of the level of commanders that took shape on June 22, 1941. Indirectly, one could evaluate by analyzing data on their official growth over the past 4-5 years.
2. This also includes the total absence / fear of initiative (including repressions) and flexibility at the regiment level and above. This problem remained relevant for almost the entire first half of the war (including 1942). Here we must add the actual dual power at the time of the outbreak of hostilities (July 1941 - October 1942)
All other problems, for example, the lack of normal, well-functioning interaction between the arms of the armed forces, primarily aviation, infantry, artillery, and armored forces, are again based on the first 2 points. Poor communication, lack of ability to maneuver troops (concentration and flank coverage), lack of a quick assessment of the current situation - all this would be resolved if there was a properly trained command staff.
At the first stage, of colossal importance was the lack of reliable air cover of troops from the actions of German aviation throughout the entire depth of the database.

For those creatures who will now start trying to talk about the blessing of the purges, the tragedy of the Red Army is well written in the well-known book of O.F. Suvenova "1937 The Tragedy of the Red Army"