Military Review

Where and how can one see hazing?

149
I agree with the opinion of those who say that often we very often criticize our army and its leadership. However, this case is from a completely different opera. Now criticism, if it begins, is somewhat different.




Alexei Roshchin, director of the Center for Sociology and Social Psychology at the Moscow Institute of Economics and Management in Industry, and a participant in a number of television programs, published an article in which I personally learned a lot of new and interesting things. And what I seek to share with you.

Officers look at the toilet: where in the Russian army hazing.

The following are quotes.

“The recent execution of a guard by a conscript soldier in the Chita Region revealed an untidy reality for a society that had taken aback: it suddenly turned out that hazing, which was considered to be successfully defeated and forever expelled from the renewed Russian army, did not actually go away. If it was “overcome” for some time, it was only for a short while, and now it “blooms and smells” again, and conscripts die again or become crippled in quite peaceful time.
This news many are perplexed. How so? Where did hazing come from again? And what is it, by the way, what is it? ”


Next is a series of photographs clearly from the nineties, judging by the uniform, and the reasoning of a man who has obviously slanted from the army, or does not understand at all what the essence of the problem is.

Most of the article is tears that are more suitable for the activist from the "committee of soldiers' mothers."

“To explain the nature of hazing is quite simple on an elementary question: who will wash the toilet?”


What a charm, isn't it? In the Soviet Union they fought with hazing and fraternity, in Russia there was also a problem, but here's the thing: they didn’t call anyone. He would explain, and he would find a solution to the problem instantly!

“Washing the toilets is hard, dirty, unpleasant, and even, perhaps, humiliating work for a young man. Why did all his peers, excuse me, crap - and he should clean up after them all? And not just once as an exception, but periodically, regularly, in each of his “outfits”? ”


Because the author, who clearly did not serve a single day, did not know that serving in a dress was another thing. That is, they go to the outfit in turn. Or as a disciplinary sanction, the outfit is out of turn, if someone messed up. But so - I agree, there is a reason for contacting The Hague. So to violate human rights ...

Well, right, you can’t do that ... Well, if you take up the discussion of the problem, at least find out what it looks like, wash the toilets in the army.

“The truth is that nobody wants to clean the toilets. There is no romance in this work, it has a very indirect relationship to the “defense of the homeland”, you can’t brag about it after serving either your beloved girlfriend or future grandchildren. ”


The truth is that the toilet is not an automaton, you need to be able to understand. There is no need to clean and lubricate the toilet, a slightly different principle of operation, especially in the army type "point". It looks like a Kalashnikov assault rifle with its simplicity and reliability. So - no need to clean, just wash.

And if an accident such as "clogged" occurs - well, yes, it does. But such delays are also eliminated by an experienced outfit in ten minutes.

Yes, the topic, of course, is the same, but for some reason the toilet and the cadet did not consider the toilet to be such dirty and shameful work. On the contrary, he left and did not shine. It seems like he is busy with business, and ... Yes, what am I, you yourself all know everything. Who (unlike Roshchin) served.

Apparently, times are changing, so are priorities with values. Alas.

But the soldier is not alone in the toilet. We look at the opus Roshchina further.

“And if only in the dresses for toilets was the case. In the army there is still a lot of heavy, dirty and very unpleasant work that nevertheless needs to be done - the need for constant washing of floors, kitchen outfits (where you need to wash dishes and all kitchen utensils for several hundred eaters already), all sorts of loading and unloading, construction work (after all, the barracks and utility rooms are old, they must be patched constantly), etc. ”


Lord Are we talking about the army, Alexey Valentinovich? About the army, not about the boarding house of noble maidens?

“But that is not all. After all, there are still such specific army requirements, such as combat training - physically extremely difficult, even exhausting exercises such as "pulling the toe" and "standing on one leg" for several hours a day. "


That's all, thanks, enough. Standing on one leg for several hours a day - everything is clear. "I did not serve, but I condemn it in advance." Personally, in the most terrible times of the bloody Soviet past, in preparation for the most massive action - the Parade on Red Square, I did not stand on one leg for hours. Like all the participants, I guess. What I hasten to notify Mr. Roshchin, but he is unlikely to believe me.

But Roshchin really did not serve! But condemns!

Information:

Roshchin Alexey Valentinovich, was born 21.06.1967. He graduated from Lomonosov Moscow State University with a degree in Social Psychology.
Thesis was devoted to the study of hazing in the army.
In the 90, he worked on projects for the development of Russian entrepreneurship and privatization, funded by USAID and the World Bank.
Since 1999, he has been working in the field of political consulting, industrial sociology. He was involved in elections at the level from municipal deputies to governors and deputies of the State Duma of the Russian Federation, and also participated in the organization of election campaigns in Ukraine, the Baltic states and Central Asia.
Also known as a journalist and blogger with the nickname sapojnik.
It was published on the websites of Kasparov.ru and Gazeta.ru, in the magazines Expert, Money and Power.


I understand everything, to be honest. Especially in terms of Kasparov.ru.

And such people are trying to broadcast something. Absolutely not understanding, not understanding.

But it is quite possible that we have problems in the state due to the fact that such Roshchins climb into power and try to steal / direct something there.

But continue.

“You ask: where do the officers look? The answer is simple: officers look at the toilet. After all, their task is to ensure that the toilets are clean. But nobody wants to clean them, and the officer cannot offer soldiers any positive motivation. ”


It reminds me of “The adventures of the brave soldier Schweik,” there was in one of the episodes a general who believed that the main thing for the army was an evening visit to the toilet. The rest will follow.

Roshchin, of course, was not in the army, neither in the one in which he was supposed to serve in theory, nor in the Russian. Therefore, how should he know what the head of an officer is full of? According to Roshchin, it’s clear - clean toilets.

The reality is very different from what Mr. Roshchin intended. And for sure: the officer’s toilet bowls are in last place. For them, in general, there is a foreman of a company, which is obliged to monitor how the outfit serves.

And then Roshchin said a few very warm and peculiar words about ... Serdyukov. It turns out that the former Minister of Defense very effectively fought hazing through ... outsourcing!

“What was the essence of Serdyukov’s reforms, which almost allowed him to take hazing under control? Serdyukov made a mini-revolution in the army by launching “outsourcing” into the army - that is, companies with civilian personnel that are for money! - they took over most of the army’s “dirty” work - cleaning, washing, working in the cafeteria, etc. This undermined the “economic” basis of bullying: if there are less unpleasant and heavy “unromantic” jobs, the need for coercion of some soldiers decreases by others. Less coercion - less violence, the dignity of the coercion suffers less, and there is less ground for murder and suicide. ”


Bows! Bows forgot! For noble maidens! Yes, Mr. Serdyukov has benefited hundreds and thousands of outsourcing firms. I just don’t know what about the exact statistics on murders and suicides, but don’t understand the money for what they’ve shaken from the army’s budget - mom, don’t worry.

Mom did not grieve while her child seemed to serve. How successful the program should be taken apart, but Roshchin is right in one thing: why pay the taxpayers crazy money for what you can get for free?

I understand that Roshchin did not read the charter, but everything is spelled out there about "the hardships and deprivations of military service." Do not crap past the toilet - is it a deprivation? Is it a burden to clean up after yourself / a comrade?

Possible.

In any case, it was not possible to lay the whole thing on the shoulders of the numerous nannies of their commercial structures. This is not even pulled our budget. Although some of this program has taken root (like salad bars). Useful, tasty, necessary.

“Perhaps you have already noticed that the reforms of the“ thief Serdyukov ”were partly unnatural: after all, in fact,“ plundered the army ”Serdyukov insisted that from now on the army should pay for what it always always received for free. You see, “always” the toilets in the barracks were brushed with toothbrushes by the soldiers themselves with their salaries of 2 thousands of rubles - and then suddenly the plunderer of the people's property forces some civil cleaners to pay for it, and not 2 at all, but a lot more ” .


Actually, I completely agree. That is how Serdyukov stole the army. It was precisely because some civilian cleaners began to tear up a lot of money for their services. What there Tankswhen the garbage collection is not paid? And the toilet cleaners ...

Yes, outsourcing took off not just a pretty penny, it cost huge piles of rubles. And the piles were spent precisely so that someone would make a pretty good money under the guise of removing a huge load from girls in camouflage.

Quiet hour is also a good thing.

“That is, everything is simple: if you leave the draft army alone and leave it to yourself, it immediately enters its natural state. With hazing. "


Apparently, the thesis of Roshchin sat well in the brain bios. Stitched to death, do not erase, nor fix.

I will not say anything about my personal acquaintances who served the urgent for the next five years, but refer to the three Smirnovs: Anatoly, Valentin and Leo. One has already served his own, two are still serving in the ranks. At present, who does not believe, write to Vadim Smirnov.

If there were a lot of places in places of service, and there were a lot of places, along with training, and even not the most "convenient", we would definitely focus on this. However, our leader systematically communicates with his guys, and ... nothing, everyone is happy!

Rocketeer, artillery scout, signalman - not a word about bullying.

But what, to the devil, can there be hazing, when only a year to serve? Six months for training / development, and six months to train a successor? Well, everything is just like a blank shot!

No, there will always be such a Roshchin who does not understand anything in the service, but does not agree with everything in advance and condemns it.

“The decisive conflict of Private Shamsutdinov in the closed Gorny Mountain Zabaykalsky Territory flared up with an officer precisely about the toilet. The officer demanded that the ordinary wash him again, Shamsutdinov did not want to. Then, according to one version, the officer grabbed a private soldier and several times dunked his head right there, "accustomed to cleanliness."
Shamsutdinov “did not remain in debt” and, starting his slaughter, killed this officer first. ”


It is clear, of course, that an unwashed toilet became a cause for hazing. Sure. But where is hazing if the conflict was between an officer and a private?

Generally survived. Okay, between the soldiers. Between a sergeant and a soldier. Although what kind of sergeant is this if his soldiers behave like that?

The officer demanded that the soldier fulfill his duties ... The soldier, apparently, was already so impudent that he sent the officer on a short but humiliating journey. Therefore, it was slightly choked with the help of the toilet. It’s familiar.

Yes, the hero’s dad declared his son “a real man” who “rebuffed the jackals.” I very much hope that the court will send this "hero" to life imprisonment. It would be nice to attract Shamsutdinov Sr. on the topic of how long since the jackets of the Russian army killed by his son became jackals.

Crazy, who, according to the subtleties of his soul, shot eight people, should be in prison. Although it is precisely for such crimes that it is necessary to unfreeze the death penalty and execute such "real men", since in reality they are all just cowards and murderers.

And the toilet has nothing to do with it. This Shamsutdinov would have arranged a massacre anyway, no matter the toilet, the floors, the outfit in the dining room. During my service I had seen enough of such warriors, it was the case.

Violations in part were. It is possible that there was a personal conflict. But the conflict between the officer and the private. And this is not an excuse for the killer of eight people. This is just an indicator that not everything in our army is smooth and perfect, since people with mental disabilities somehow get there.

But this is a topic of a completely different conversation.

Our conversation is that the fewer in the army and around it there will be such frank amateurs who talk about what needs to be changed so that everything becomes perfect, the better it will be for the army as a whole.

In our army there is no hazing, there are no grandfathers there long ago, as they switched to the annual system. It’s worth learning at least that.

But the fact that there is still a place in the army for Roshchin, who are fighting with the army itself under the guise of fighting against nonexistent bullying, - this is exactly the fact that there is a place to be.
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  1. Aerodrome
    Aerodrome 6 November 2019 06: 02 New
    14
    during the years of service, "terry" hazing did not see (1980), all that I learned, thanks to the "grandfathers"! who else to wisdom and subtleties
    teach? in the "turnip" once got it, but for the cause, and no complaints. (Zila almost boiled, forgot to open the blinds)! outfits are an ordinary thing, and I scrubbed the "takeoff", and washed the "Glasses", and rubbed the floor with mastic, and a bath of potatoes during the night with canvases from a hacksaw was cleaned by six of them. what is it? everyone did it in turn. perhaps the drill "froze out" - the most hated that happened!
    1. 210ox
      210ox 6 November 2019 06: 23 New
      12
      This Roshchin ibn Kasparov confuses the warm with the soft. Hazing really not. Barracks hooligan happens and unfortunately psychopaths come across. This applies to any army.
      1. GKS 2111
        GKS 2111 6 November 2019 08: 17 New
        +8
        Hazing was. This is when the senior fighter pushes you away and goes to work with the officers himself.
        1. Vadim Golubkov
          Vadim Golubkov 6 November 2019 10: 49 New
          +6
          I had a case, as a young soldier in a dressing out in the dining room, he quarreled with old-timers from another unit, so our grandfather came to my aid and resolved the conflict, thereby helping me.
      2. Invoce
        Invoce 6 November 2019 13: 45 New
        +8
        What ... hazing! When the army serves only 2 calls with a difference of six months! I agree 100%! There is no hazing, there are inadequate characters and citizens with a criminal-criminal history (who may not have been involved) and who got into the Armed Forces due to an oversight of military commissariats. But here, too, is not their (military commissars) fault. In the personal file, there’s no ins and outs, in Russia we don’t collect files on people from birth! In some areas of Siberia and the Far East, entire settlements are settled by former prisoners. And in families (and they have families and children), a cult of criminal romance, tolerance, AUE (Unified Prisoners ...) is inculcated and they are drafted from there ... There is only one law - it is obliged to serve, and no one has to deprive a citizen of an honorable duty rights! Hence all the problems in the Army ... from society
        1. Living7111972
          Living7111972 6 November 2019 15: 48 New
          +5
          The defense of the Motherland is not a duty, not an obligation, but an honorable right! You need to proceed from this. There’s nothing to do in the ranks. Weapons in the hands of only worthy ... That's all.
    2. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 6 November 2019 17: 31 New
      +4
      1. Military discipline is a strict and accurate COMPLIANCE by all military personnel with the order and rules established by federal constitutional laws, federal laws, military regulations of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (hereinafter referred to as military regulations), other regulatory legal acts of the Russian Federation and orders (orders) of commanders (commanders) )
      (Clause 1 as amended by Decree of the President of the Russian Federation of 25.03.2015 N 161)
      4. Military discipline is achieved:
      the education of military personnel of moral, psychological, combat qualities and conscious obedience to commanders (chiefs);
      the knowledge and observance by servicemen of the laws of the Russian Federation, other regulatory legal acts of the Russian Federation, the requirements of general military charters and the norms of international humanitarian law;
      the personal responsibility of each soldier for performing the duties of military service;
      maintenance in the military unit (division) of the internal order by all military personnel;
      clear organization of combat training and full coverage of its personnel;
      the daily demands of commanders (chiefs) to subordinates and control over their execution, respect for the personal dignity of military personnel and constant care for them, skillful combination and proper use of measures of persuasion, coercion and public influence of the team;
      the creation in the military unit (division) of the necessary conditions of military service, life and a system of measures to limit the dangerous factors of military service.


      (((Decree of the President of the Russian Federation of November 10.11.2007, 1495 N 21.02.2019 (as amended of February XNUMX, XNUMX) "On approval of general military regulations of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation" (together with the "Charter of the internal service of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation", "Disciplinary charter of the Armed Forces ...
      Chapter 1. General provisions ...)))
      Everything else is an improper relationship .... and ... Crime ..
  2. Yuri Guliy
    Yuri Guliy 6 November 2019 06: 02 New
    14
    Unfortunately, there is less and less faith in the MO reports, as such "details" emerge that ...
    1. YOUR
      YOUR 6 November 2019 08: 04 New
      14
      And still surprising explanations from MO - domestic incompatibility.
      But the worst thing is that all disciplinary punishments were taken from the command staff, only persuasions remained.
    2. Invoce
      Invoce 6 November 2019 13: 53 New
      -4
      They "float out" because the liberal media are serving them like that, with such a sauce .... The fact is that now no one is hiding anything. Everything in the Army is like in society. In terms of%, everything is the same. For it is not saints who serve in the Army, but ordinary citizens of Russia, although no, the most "smart" mow down the sick or hide from the call. They serve in the Army either out of conviction, or those who could not mow. In any case, not 100% ready-to-serve young guys. Maybe it's for the best that not all those who are afraid to serve did not end up in the army, the state of emergency would have been greater if all such were called, but why should those who did not serve dirt on the Army pour?
  3. The popuas
    The popuas 6 November 2019 06: 05 New
    +7
    We have the same people in our outfit, not in the QUEUE, just there are so stupid people that, apart from the point, they can not be trusted with anything.
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 6 November 2019 06: 48 New
      +3
      Quote: Popuas
      We have the same people in our outfit, not in the QUEUE, just there are so stupid people that, apart from the point, they can not be trusted with anything.

      and this is true too, and we had such a couple - "dumb and dumber" ... so "salabons" and went to demobilization.
      1. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV 6 November 2019 07: 21 New
        +1
        Such mamas came who never cleaned themselves, did not take care of themselves, "shniki" ... someone quickly learned it later, and someone stayed and by the end of the service when the young people came, they tried to sit around, but he was a schnick until the end of the service remained a schnick and did not make any transitions .. who knows he will understand
    2. BIABIA
      BIABIA 6 November 2019 10: 20 New
      -1
      It's like that. For the entire service (2 years, 94-96gg.) Once washed the take-off, the sergeant spat at his feet, took out the drill. I admit it was wrong, the case was in training. I did not go outfits anymore, I even avoided constructions. He served as a carrier, battalion commander and drove officers. Then, in my part, there was lawlessness, officers, many, rare drunk (I do not want to offend anyone, I write about those whom I drove during the service. Specifically!) How many of them rolled them at night, then slept, not before the buildings. But then, would you suggest that I return back to life now, I would return to the 96th, to my native garrison, the young one was fervent, and the second year of service was just a buzz))))) Do you believe it, do not)
    3. WIKI
      WIKI 6 November 2019 10: 41 New
      +4
      Quote: Popuas
      there are simply so stupid people that besides the point they cannot be trusted with anything.

      It all depends on the particular person, especially if contacts during the service are limited to two, three military personnel. I myself did not allow the old servant to run into something other than myself, and in the future I did not try to oppress the young one. I hope he appreciated this, and acted accordingly. To gobble up and make of a weak-character dumb, a lot of mind is not necessary.
  4. samarin1969
    samarin1969 6 November 2019 06: 22 New
    24
    The many-sided author convinced that someone Roshchin did not understand anything in the army service. Was this fact worth the article?
    Well, Mr. Skomorokhov does not like the term "hazing". But there is a problem of discipline. If the special forces are called in to "settle the national question" in the Far East, then there is a mess in the army, as well as in other "industries."

    The discipline in the army should be like in the military camps of Rome. Otherwise, they will not be soldiers, but again - "vocational schools with machine guns."
    If a soldier or officer does not follow the order, there are outfits, "lip", "zone". The level of legal culture, the adequacy of adolescent behavior is very low. Therefore, there must be strict round-the-clock officer control.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 6 November 2019 07: 03 New
      +5
      Precisely, drove tksk, a heavy tank in an enemy toilet. )) But better than nothing.
    2. rocket757
      rocket757 6 November 2019 07: 07 New
      +8
      Quote: samarin1969
      Discipline in the army should be like in the military camps of Rome. Otherwise it will not be warriors

      We do not have much to provide this .... we will not finally talk about the measure of punishment, then "onizhedeti" and even "proud eagles" are extremely priceless and so on .... problems of mentality and education.
      1. novel66
        novel66 6 November 2019 11: 42 New
        +6
        and to proud eagles they wound a rag on the machine and so they washed the floor, and making sure of inefficiency, they were friends with a mop
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 6 November 2019 12: 14 New
          +1
          Quote: novel xnumx
          and to proud eagles they wound a rag on the machine and so they washed the floor, and making sure of inefficiency, they were friends with a mop

          We had for washing floors in the barracks, was UNIT BMD ... "combat vehicle of the day-man", a product of soldier's ingenuity. Fast and efficient!
    3. Moore
      Moore 6 November 2019 07: 18 New
      12
      Quote: samarin1969
      The level of legal culture and the adequacy of adolescent behavior is very low. Therefore, there should be a tight round-the-clock officer control.

      The key word is teenagers. From year to year, the consequences of modern education, upbringing and lifestyle as such are making themselves felt more and more. The average modern conscript in the way of thinking and behavior is not much different from students in grades 5-6 years that way in the seventies. More than half of the conscripts cannot withstand either mental or physical stress. Serdyukov gave them a "quiet hour" in the afternoon, the officers were whispered to the point that it is easier to put a soldier on a chair in the barracks and fasten a seat belt - otherwise he can fall asleep, fall and damage himself.
      "Roman military camp" is therefore fraught with danger. I know several such "centurions" - they have received their Article 286 of the Criminal Code and are mastering citizenship - the law and political officers are always on the side of the "offended" soldier, and the wording of the sentence contains the concept of "a false concept of military duty and military discipline."
      In other words, the army does not have immunity from the problems of the whole society and the leaders in it are always hostages of the situation. Yes, you can take everything and forbid it - conscripts aren’t what to go on guard at all - to leave the barracks altogether. It will not save.
    4. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 6 November 2019 10: 48 New
      +6
      the settlement of the national question was when the guys from Dagestan decided that their rules from the villages can be set anywhere. going in a bunch they did what they wanted. I had to learn hard. some put up with it, but let's say our scouts in one day discouraged themselves from continuing to behave like this. they were not only when they served. after the demobilization, they remained there to live and continued to openly deal with racketeering further. and I will repeat one day and it all ended in the bud. without taking out the garbage from the unit. and no one spared this decision. regarding the execution of orders and punishment. when a foreign body appears in your collective that not only does not comply with the order, but your authority tries to destroy, it is necessary to respond. Of course, do not dunk your head in the toilet but extremely hard. otherwise the chain reaction will be much worse.
    5. Invoce
      Invoce 6 November 2019 14: 00 New
      +2
      Another hype!
      The level of legal culture, the adequacy of adolescent behavior is very low. Поэтому there should be a tight round-the-clock officer control.

      You are confusing the army and kindergarten, school and family! They do not educate in the army, but carry out combat, combat training tasks! The army is an institution of the state designed to protect the state and its citizens from external aggression. Nobody said anything about the upbringing of adolescents.
    6. The comment was deleted.
    7. Pushkar
      Pushkar 8 November 2019 20: 26 New
      +2
      Quote: samarin1969
      Therefore, there should be a tight round-the-clock officer control.
      It looks like you didn't serve in the army either. There were at one time "responsible for divisions" in addition to regular outfits. They were supposed to carry out round-the-clock control. There are five officers in the company, which means that every fifth day you live in the barracks, add outfits, guards, business trips, exercises, hospitals, alarms, etc. Don't have a family? Not resting at all? But it would be good for it! The company is in the dining room, you are with her, and in the barracks at this time the young people are mucking, went to bed, went to check the location, and in the toilet the young people are mucking. To go to the bathhouse with them? Should you control the washroom or the changing room? And so a quarter of a century? I served like that in the mid-80s. Perhaps it is simpler - the severity and inevitability of punishment? After the debates, many wondered.
      1. samarin1969
        samarin1969 8 November 2019 20: 34 New
        +1
        I served. 2 years conscript. And I - for your "cruelty and inevitability of punishment." But officer control should be around the clock. And in the "washing room and dressing room". For me, the solution is to double the staffing table and officers' salaries. ..And discipline will be like in a real army
        1. Pushkar
          Pushkar 8 November 2019 20: 41 New
          0
          Quote: samarin1969
          For me, the solution is to double the staffing and salaries of officers. ..And the discipline will be-as in a real army

          And where do you get these volunteers for twenty-five years of hard labor in the barracks? Half of the officers in the army are not tankers, not pilots, not sailors, but overseers? Not an army, but a maximum security prison. And who will fight?
          1. samarin1969
            samarin1969 8 November 2019 20: 56 New
            0
            They are officers! Obliged to demand 95% of the implementation of the charter. For orders to soldiers - they are paid by taxpayers of the Russian Federation. Discipline must be army smile
            1. Pushkar
              Pushkar 8 November 2019 21: 04 New
              +1
              Quote: samarin1969
              They are officers! Obliged to demand 95% of the implementation of the charter. For orders to soldiers - they are paid by taxpayers of the Russian Federation. Discipline must be army

              And I am for the same! Only now they have almost no rights under the charter. And there are more political commanders (psychologists) and "sociality" than necessary, and again the commanders are judged by the number of registered offenses. Hence, attempts to combat "non-regulation" by non-regulation methods.
          2. samarin1969
            samarin1969 8 November 2019 21: 20 New
            0
            Why prison? Just an army with discipline, not a parody of the army, as it is now. Officers must provide guidance and control to soldiers. This has been the case since the days of Rome and Frederick. Otherwise, the soldiers turn into rabble, gangs. ... Solution of the issue for the rest of sailors and pilots? ... Sergeant with a salary of 100 and statutory powers .... And "Peace in Bosnia" ...
            1. Pushkar
              Pushkar 9 November 2019 00: 24 New
              0
              Quote: samarin1969
              Just an army with discipline
              And in which army do half of the officers - guard, are engaged in positions rather than combat training? Do you have enough current taxes? Would you like more?
  5. Thrifty
    Thrifty 6 November 2019 06: 24 New
    0
    But the late Vysokiy said about such grove-like ones, "but if you are stupid as a tree, you will be born a baobab" !!! So they gave birth to Buratin ala Roshchin. ..here
  6. Valery Valery
    Valery Valery 6 November 2019 06: 36 New
    13
    I observe how very many (well, very many) rushed to the defense of the soldier Shamsutdinov, who shot his colleagues.
    Like a poor boy who suffered from bullying, avenged his offenders.
    The investigation will deal with the fact of hazing and how it manifested itself. Mocked the guy or simply, against his will, made him work, i.e. perform duties that he considered humiliating for himself.

    But think about it: he lost eight people, took the life of someone's children and fathers .... No one attempted on his life and even his health - and this is a fact. And he took away other people's lives. Think about it ....
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 6 November 2019 07: 06 New
      +5
      Some suffer humiliation ... but they cannot bear it. And while cleaning (washing) toilets, such people do NOT consider it a humiliation.
    2. Cruorvult
      Cruorvult 6 November 2019 07: 08 New
      +2
      Nobody has canceled sociology, people are good at feeling. Investigation, investigation, authorities hide. The Group posted a video from the tape where they allegedly dipped it in the toilet, although it turned out to be old and the news was quickly nailed. Hype on hype, and the author himself likes to push emotions.
    3. tesser
      tesser 6 November 2019 08: 02 New
      -6
      Quote: Valery Valery
      And he took away other people's lives. Think about it ....

      Sorry, I did not quite understand the argument. Are you worried about the fact that a soldier took away other people's lives with a weapon?
    4. Chit
      Chit 6 November 2019 10: 02 New
      -2
      I thought about it. And more than once.
      Above, for example, as in some mothers, sons do not return from the army. Cause?
      There are a lot of reasons. Their army command will always lead a whole bunch.
      Accident.
      Death from a disease.
      In the performance of military duty, etc.
      Everything is smooth on paper. Misunderstandings begin later, when the mother and father, before the funeral, discover by bruising on the body that their son was brutally beaten. This was the cause of death.
      Will the command publicize a similar fact? Never in my life!
      Never!
      Will hide it in every possible way. No one will ever make dirty linen in public. To all the requests of the relatives of the deceased, the command and the military prosecutor’s office would only refrain and put the conclusions of the SME into their hands. Does anyone have doubts about what will be written in the SME?
      And there are not even dozens of such cases in the army per year. There are hundreds of them.
      No hazing? Is a soldier serving a year? But nothing that the call goes twice a year? And for six months, some already feel like a grandfather in some way?
      But nothing that extremely hostile relations on the basis of national differences in the army reach monstrous proportions? Is the soldier being tritely beaten?
      Is it okay that the tyranny of some officers is off scale? And "every other day on the belt" turns into "every day on the belt"?
      That is why such Shamsutdinovs appear. Who reason like this: I’m better off someone than me.
      And they will appear.
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 6 November 2019 13: 58 New
        0
        The author blamed the soldier in advance on the soldier, but according to the law he is guilty, because he killed people, but we won’t know the whole truth about this case, namely, why he killed.
        More than a hundred years ago, Tsar Alexander II once said: “In the life of the state, as in personal life, there are times when we must forget everything and defend honor.”
        Maybe this soldier was bullied and in this way he defended his honor? In my life there were a couple of times such moments when I regretted that there was no machine gun in my hands, otherwise I would put all the bastards and then go to jail and would not regret it. But it would be disagreeable to others.
        1. lestad
          lestad 12 November 2019 21: 40 New
          0
          Well, not 8 people ??? ... This is some kind of maniac turns out and not a soldier ???
      2. sniperino
        sniperino 6 November 2019 16: 54 New
        -1
        Quote: Chit
        And for six months, some already feel like a grandfather in some way?
        There is no one to embarrass such a sympathetic? 1 year of service and hazing - some kind of nonsense.
    5. Vadim Golubkov
      Vadim Golubkov 6 November 2019 10: 54 New
      +3
      I also thought about it. All 8 people cannot humiliate one, but he shot them all. They say that he cold-bloodedly shot those lying in the head.
    6. d.olegov44
      d.olegov44 6 November 2019 19: 04 New
      -2
      I observe how very many (well, very many) rushed to the defense of the soldier Shamsutdinov, who shot his colleagues.

      He committed a de jure crime, and de facto defended his honor. Since this happened in our army, where a couple of years ago we had to classify losses in peacetime, where conscripts return home with amputated legs and genetics or "suicide" hanging themselves with their hands tied behind their backs and a bag on their heads, there are already a lot of questions already to our MO. There can be no questions only from the bull-goobydl, who, after this incident, got crazy because someone rebuffed him and went away from the fact that the next time he teaches someone the wisdom of reason in the barracks, he can catch the olive tree itself.
  7. Cruorvult
    Cruorvult 6 November 2019 07: 03 New
    0
    What is being done, Skomorokhov against whiners. It is necessary to understand, the problem of snowflakes exists, maybe his phone was taken away and he was offended. A friend received citizenship, demobilized that week, never complained about bullying, although from Ukraine.
    1. Chit
      Chit 6 November 2019 11: 01 New
      11
      The problem is not only in snowflakes. We apply the situation to any normal man.
      He dipped his head into the toilet.
      His actions? A normal man will immediately answer the offender. And if there are several offenders? Are bullying regular? What to do to the peasant? Complain to the commander? But he is a soldier, not. He perfectly understands that the officer will let things go on the brakes. It is not in his interests, I repeat, to make dirty linen in public. For irregular relationships, he can not only lose an asterisk on shoulder straps, but also shoulder straps themselves.
      This is how a situation may arise when a soldier is forced to grab onto a machine gun. Or again plunge into the toilet? The choice is not easy. I would not prefer the toilet.
      To complain? To whom? The commander is useless. Mom? Mom is far away. Can the World League for Sexual Reform. It’s a pity there won’t be any sense.
      It is worth analyzing the chain of recent actions of the army leadership.
      In 2001, the Russian Ministry of Defense classified all the information related to the deaths of military personnel.
      In 2008 even indirect data on this subject disappear from the MO site.
      In 2015, Putin classified data on the dead military in peacetime.
      Is it all from a good life? In the army?
      Clearly, data on losses in Syria, for example, need a secretary. Otherwise, those wishing to go there would be reduced.
      But after all, data with the number of victims from unregistered relationships also fall into classified losses. That's the problem.
      Outside now everything is clean. Smooth. And to dig?
      How many Shamsutdinovs and those who died in the soldiers' toilets and barracks are there?
      After all, only what journalists managed to sniff out is made public. The rest is under a strong castle.
  8. rocket757
    rocket757 6 November 2019 07: 03 New
    +2
    people with mental disabilities somehow get there.

    It was earlier, it will be in the future .....
    There is no unambiguously correct way to avoid this, although it is necessary to reduce, reduce to a minimum.
    1. Flatter
      Flatter 6 November 2019 10: 18 New
      -5
      Hazing also exists in civilian life, and this is a normal and useful phenomenon. Those who have worked at least a couple of years in production and not former schoolchildren who have undergone mortal shifts under pressure in a civilian life
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 6 November 2019 10: 56 New
        +4
        Quote: Flatter
        Hazing in civilian life exists and it’s normal

        Actually, this is called mentoring ... yes, in production, and a lot where necessary.
        The main thing is that this does not turn into ugly, criminal forms!
  9. Alex66
    Alex66 6 November 2019 07: 10 New
    +9
    The article simply leads away from answers to unpleasant questions:
    how the "psycho" got into the army, the commission is a linden, the work of the military commissar is at zero
    why the officers did not commission the "psycho", entrusted the weapon
    Where is the whole system that should not allow this.
    Why the mess (and the "nutcase" with weapons is a mess) happened in the unit where the commander was looking.
    The author does not want to answer this, he chose a convenient for beating Roshchina, who did not serve, liberal views.
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 6 November 2019 07: 24 New
      +3
      He was not a psycho ... he acted prudently ... but he was a coward, although he was athletic .. he also gave up when he did a dirty deed, the others fired ... and somehow they all forgot, even a hackneyed phrase, but the army was cut of our society ..
      1. Alex66
        Alex66 6 November 2019 15: 09 New
        +5
        "Crazy" note in quotes (the guy was preparing for the army, wanted to serve) a coward - it's debatable, as a rule, cowards shoot, they are afraid to answer, but he avenged himself on the offenders and surrendered, why should he kill someone else? He did not find another way out of the situation and, apparently, was not the first in this part, he was the first to fight back. But as always, it is profitable to hang all the dogs on it.
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 6 November 2019 10: 51 New
      +2
      he is not a psycho but a sociopath. you can only detect him at the commission if you specifically check him starting with his behavior from kindergarten. how do you imagine it?
  10. Den717
    Den717 6 November 2019 07: 18 New
    +4
    In our army there is no hazing, there are no grandfathers there long ago, as they switched to the annual system. It’s worth learning at least that.

    Actually, today the term "hazing" basically means the entire spectrum of hazing in the army collective. And then nothing new happened. Toilets, outfits, physical fitness are all not important. The main thing is that infantile and reactive, obedient domestic and deviant young men are gathered from under their mother's skirts into a close team that lives and functions in a limited space around the clock. In such conditions, a kind of hierarchical structure will always grow. Strong personalities will dominate weak ones in many aspects of life. The whole question is: how will this dominance manifest itself? In edifying moderate help or in attempts to assert itself at the expense of humiliating those nearby. At one time, many armies of the world went through this, they are going through today. In our country, these relations are being overcome with difficulty also because the assessment of a military unit is based on a checkered system. No conflicts is the good part, the management has a further successful career open. Has shown the presence of a problem - difficulties may arise in further service. The United States even passed a law prohibiting, on pain of "landing", even touching one soldier to another. And they monitored its observance quite tightly. They planted them quite briskly. In addition, it was possible to resign from the army with such an article that problems appeared in civilian life. They found a solution in contract service, where a call to order replaced financial leverage. Our problems are of the same order and they must be solved by approximately the same methods. And in order for an officer, a lieutenant, to look not into the toilet, but into the essence of relations in his unit, he must have effective levers of discipline control. And, if necessary, he should receive the full support of the law from the leadership of all degrees in establishing and maintaining order in his unit, and not reproaches for limited abilities. In this case, "dirty linen in public" must be taken out. The main thing is to be taken out to a specific correctional environment. As for the journalist Roshin, at all times we have had a mass of writing fraternity who consider themselves experts in all respects. Today Roshchin, in the 80s - early Polyakov with "100 days ...". The more they try to hide the problem, the more "openers" there will be. And the problem, in my opinion, is only developing. Other home infantile, unable to defend their opinion, boys only by their presence in the team already create the prerequisites for big problems. Add "non-traditional" here - you get an abyss of "specific" relationships.
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. Sarduor
    Sarduor 6 November 2019 07: 25 New
    0
    I didn’t have hazing, there were people who work and who work a lot less, because they go to exercises and training grounds all the time.
  14. Slon379
    Slon379 6 November 2019 07: 36 New
    11
    And I agree with Roshchin. He served as an urgent in Soviet times and saw how many normal guys disappeared in kitchens and in outfits, instead of getting a military specialty and physically developing. Take turns talking about wearing outfits? Suvorovites like you, flattering their ego, are breaking the service of conscripts. Our company commander liked to go into the washstand after charging (whoever served knows what was going on there) and put those who were there in the slurry with a flash, and whoever did not fall received his 5 outfits and walked them for three months, at the end of each he removed the guilty one for "remarks" ... I always believed that it is more important for the Motherland how much you will run 5 km and how many signs you will accept Morse code, and not how many dishes or toilets you washed in 2 years, therefore outsourcing was welcomed. And in general there is information that the soldier wanted to bang one officer.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 6 November 2019 10: 57 New
      -1
      and so what? this is a common thing. in this way the instinct is developed to be always ready. you do not understand the specifics, you think that cleaning or outfits is a punishment, but I will tell you this is the development of discipline and the ability to fulfill any order. the karate kid watched the film as the teacher forced the student to rub the machine every day instead of training?
      1. tesser
        tesser 6 November 2019 12: 03 New
        +3
        Quote: carstorm 11
        the karate kid watched the film as the teacher forced the student to rub the machine every day instead of training?

        1. In this film, a certain basic set of movements was fixed in this way.
        2. When the boy, after 4 days of such fixation, sent sansei to the very letters, he was clearly shown that the progress he achieved was not "always ready", but more applied things. He was not dipped into the toilet. It is believed that this is different from sansei.
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 6 November 2019 13: 38 New
          -2
          you are very mistaken) a basic principle is being developed that a person cannot receive before service. complete and absolute submission. from the moment you take the oath you must realize one thing that would not happen your commander knows how best and what. even if you think that this is not so, you should still do whatever they say. that there is no democracy now. that no one will do anything for you now. that hardships and hardships are not words but reality. a civilian needs to be hammered every day and that discipline is the foundation he only understands.
          1. tesser
            tesser 6 November 2019 13: 50 New
            +3
            Quote: carstorm 11
            even if you think that this is not so, you should still do whatever I say

            Some kind of a little BDSM fantasy, it seems to me. Although there are fathers-commanders implementing such ideas, I will not argue.
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 6 November 2019 17: 08 New
              0
              Well, understanding this is not necessary for you) it is enough to know the basic principles. it is an army and not an institution. the commander then, if anything, lead these boys into battle. and there excuse me but fantasies on the topic or not need an order to execute. and if a soldier does not understand that he is obliged to do whatever they say, it will end very badly. all that a civilian does not understand in the event of the outbreak of war will be driven through the blood.
    2. VeteranVSSSR
      VeteranVSSSR 6 November 2019 23: 49 New
      +2
      Elephant, what is outsourcing? Elephant, and what happens in the washbasin? He served, but I don’t know.
      I, too, could not understand why I had to brush my parade ground in Balashikha (BB lip) and wash my underwear.
      And the hazing that the grandfather / veteran of the armed forces of the SA could afford is to put a bowl of porridge on the head of the kitchen attendant (piece), because the dishes are poorly washed (does not creak), grandfather '' could turn to the commander military unit through the head of your boss / commander (s).
      A lot of things grandfathers could do, but !!! never on a serious / responsible task, never! `` spirit '' was not sent, ANYWHERE!
      `` Spirit '' - must learn everything, what?, But what - (6-8 times to pull up, 5-7 times we climb a coup, 5 times, force exit '' on two hands and ... most importantly that all the `` spirits '' must return to their mothers home safe and sound ...
      A push to wash is a matter of minutes, but to return home, the spirit may not be enough. Although, everyone has different ...
    3. Pushkar
      Pushkar 8 November 2019 20: 50 New
      0
      Quote: Slon379
      And in general there is information that the soldier wanted to bang one officer.

      Just? And the other seven with a control shot - by chance?
  15. Avior
    Avior 6 November 2019 07: 38 New
    +6
    Indeed, the causes and circumstances of the conflict are still unknown, but articles with its discussion in batches have already gone.
    Maybe in order to judge what happened, it's worth the wait until the details become known?
    1. tesser
      tesser 6 November 2019 08: 08 New
      +2
      Quote: Avior
      Maybe in order to judge what happened, it's worth the wait until the details become known?

      Actually, quite a lot of details are known, liberals do not sleep, and if you need details from Mr. Konashenkov, then they will never be. Shooting in the part is to shoot down the Tomahawks.

      If half of these details really had a place to be, then the unit commander is under the tribunal. But I will be extremely surprised if this really happens.
    2. Leshy1975
      Leshy1975 6 November 2019 12: 39 New
      +4
      Quote: Avior
      Indeed, the causes and circumstances of the conflict are still unknown, but articles with its discussion in batches have already gone.
      Maybe in order to judge what happened, it's worth the wait until the details become known?

      I completely agree with this approach. Without knowing the circumstances, one cannot judge the degree of guilt / not guilty. The article itself began sensibly, but when I read it to
      Therefore, it was slightly choked with the help of the toilet. It’s familiar.
      Then I realized that the author suffered. Because such an action is definitely an act of moral humiliation. Well, yes, it doesn’t occur to the author that for some, moral humiliation is worse than physical injuries. And I want to say that in the 18-20 centuries, the author himself with such attitudes would have long been called to a duel, and there God will judge.
      Punish, but DO NOT HUMILIATE, do not deprive a person of honor. Without honor and self-esteem, man is nothing but an animal.
      And already here
      This Shamsutdinov would have arranged a massacre anyway, no matter the toilet, the floors, the outfit in the dining room. During my service I had seen enough of such warriors, it was the case.

      The author altogether replaced all possible commissions and expert examinations and remotely (apparently taken from the photo) established a psychological portrait and the degree of guilt of Shamsutdinov. Bravo!
      And in this case, the author becomes better than the condemned by him Roshchin. Roshchin did not serve in the army, he has no right to judge what is happening. And the author also knows about the Shamsutdinov case by hearsay, but draws conclusions very willingly and unambiguously. And in the end we got "two Roshchins", both were not (not familiar with the circumstances), but both condemn. request

      PS I don’t know the circumstances, so I personally cannot condemn either Shamsutdinov or the victims. And I don’t trust the information in the media (at this stage). the interested party, in hot pursuit, will try to give the picture "prettier", but the truth will come out later. But few people care about her. hi
  16. nikvic46
    nikvic46 6 November 2019 08: 09 New
    +8
    I think hazing comes from the traditions in one unit or another. Where sergeants treat all subordinates the same, hazing simply cannot be. At us, at the outpost, if the "old man" refuses to peel potatoes with the "young" after service, then another of his peers will be offended by him, since breakfast for the dress will not be ready. A terrible case. I don’t remember. In theory, such a person should go to serve in a construction battalion, where there is no weapon. But the construction battalion has long been gone.
  17. nikolai.kolya
    nikolai.kolya 6 November 2019 08: 21 New
    +8
    I just don’t know what about the exact statistics on murders and suicides, but don’t understand the money for what they’ve shaken from the army’s budget - mom, don’t worry.

    This phrase crosses out everything written by the author.
    How can you evaluate without knowing the statistics?
    The officer demanded that the soldier fulfill his duties ... The soldier, apparently, was already so impudent that he sent the officer on a short but humiliating journey. Therefore, it was slightly choked with the help of the toilet. It’s familiar.

    This proposal completely discredits the author ... it's scary to think that if the procedure `` dipping into the toilet '' is acceptable and familiar for a person, then imagine his children (who serve without problems), of course they will not be soaked in the toilet, but they .. ..
    And in general, I thought that at the end there would be a recipe or a panacea for hazing ....
    Alas, no .... just a statement of the absence of a problem, and 8 corpses are so `` inadequate '' (although, even if so, where is the professional selection? And its effectiveness)
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 6 November 2019 10: 58 New
      +1
      you with your subordinates will send you three cheerful letters, you threaten with a finger?
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 6 November 2019 14: 12 New
        -1
        And you immediately offer a club on the head, then how do you differ from this Shamsutdinov?
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 6 November 2019 17: 12 New
          0
          I do not propose. I’ll just punish the whole unit for his shoals. it is much more effective. and as old as the world.
      2. nikolai.kolya
        nikolai.kolya 6 November 2019 15: 24 New
        +3
        If you send someone, and the sent one turns out to be stronger, does he have the right to bother you with your head in the toilet?
  18. tesser
    tesser 6 November 2019 08: 21 New
    0
    In this particular case, Mr. Skomorokhov is right in many respects. It’s really bad that a lot of people who understand any issue at the level of toilets call themselves experts. Among "TV program participants" this is more the rule than the exception.

    1. In this particular case, the perpetrator is known. This is, firstly, the unit commander, and secondly, the late platoon Mr. Pyankov. For the simple reason that the officer is always to blame for the conflict between a soldier and an officer who has gone beyond the statutory forms.

    2. The problem of toilets does occur, although not in the form described by a holy man, Mr. Roshchin, who knows the army, judging by its text, from publications in the Spark of the late 80s. In the reality (according to liberals, he didn’t check) the problem is that washing the bucket can be organized in one of two ways: peasants wash in a queue, or those offended wash constantly. The second way, of course, involves the presence of offended, which with some probability implies conflicts in the process of appointing those. In the army, it should be borne in mind that the offended are armed, so the conflict can take place quite aggressively, as in this particular case. There is nothing strange or wrong with this; it should be taken for granted. Someone is lucky, someone is not.
    1. 2 Level Advisor
      2 Level Advisor 6 November 2019 08: 38 New
      +3
      just for the sake of curiosity, how would you solve the problem of refusing to carry out an order as a soldier, being you an officer?
      1. Avior
        Avior 6 November 2019 08: 39 New
        +5
        According to the charter is not an option?
        1. 2 Level Advisor
          2 Level Advisor 6 November 2019 08: 41 New
          +3
          well, even according to the charter, but for what part of it? and then you have a very very wide offer .. and lips and outfits in the charter are no longer extraordinary ..
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. 2 Level Advisor
              2 Level Advisor 6 November 2019 10: 33 New
              +5
              I know this well, that's why I asked, did you know ... I'm talking about something other than a disciplinary arrest, which I didn’t hear much to be applied, since this is through a military court, with the involvement of the prosecutor’s office and then checks for the whole part and adventures in one officer’s place and all the higher commanders of the unit, with gloomy consequences for all of them, but not for the conscript ... and that’s all, so that they can give at least the conscript five days of arrest ... norms?
              There is nothing in the charter that the conscript would really be afraid of ... reprimand? planer? he’s very scared .. he’ll drive him home ahead of schedule, though I feel glad the conscript will only ..
              although by the way, perhaps this would be the way out ... to issue a wolf ticket if they were expelled from the army with a ban on holding civil service posts for 10 years ..
              1. Avior
                Avior 6 November 2019 12: 46 New
                +4
                something link to the charter removed.
                I agree that the opportunities there are not so hot, everything should rest on the authority of the commander in the first place, and not on the list of punishments from the charter.
                When I served, the company commander with us, too, happened, as he said, to explain with gestures, but there was never humiliation, everyone perceived it adequately, and he did not apply this to everyone, rather to "his own", and it was rather symbolic
      2. tesser
        tesser 6 November 2019 08: 58 New
        -2
        Quote: Level 2 Advisor
        How would you solve the problem of refusing to obey orders by a soldier as an officer?

        Of course the scoreboard! However, I don’t complain when people like me are shot. Life is life.
        1. 2 Level Advisor
          2 Level Advisor 6 November 2019 10: 28 New
          +6
          you have an interesting proposal ... but I didn’t offer it on the scoreboard at all .. and I don’t think I’m normal on the toilet head .. and as an officer I didn’t have to punish the task, except sometimes sports exercises, additional guys they obeyed completely .. I'm talking about the fact that for some reason they removed the normal instruments for raising conscripts from the charter (lip and additional orders) ... and it became much more difficult to educate them ..
          1. tesser
            tesser 6 November 2019 10: 58 New
            +3
            Quote: Level 2 Advisor
            . and I don’t think I’m normal in the toilet head .. and as an officer I didn’t have to come up with a punishment,

            The "sarcasm" tag is missing.

            The thing is who in this situation is an officer, as he understands himself. It’s one thing if you see YOURSELF among zk, another thing is the commander. Firstly, this is not given to everyone, and secondly, it is very difficult to tell someone how to.
            1. 2 Level Advisor
              2 Level Advisor 6 November 2019 11: 13 New
              0
              I agree, I did not understand sarcasm hi
      3. garrett
        garrett 6 November 2019 10: 45 New
        +6
        just for the sake of curiosity, how would you solve the problem of refusing to carry out an order as a soldier, being you an officer?

        in a word .... how else ??? if you are unable to explain / force / encourage a fighter, then you are worthless as an officer ... my fighters begged me to give them a jug and let them go out of the office. The WORD is stronger than fists ... and it’s more painful) I'm not talking about attracting national communities, it helps a lot especially with the guys from the TFR ... well, a competent politician is kitsch too, he can quite arrange for himself inveterate thugs .... also works, especially when the exit court closes for 10 days))
        1. 2 Level Advisor
          2 Level Advisor 6 November 2019 11: 17 New
          +1
          I agree with all of the above, Alex! except for kichi dispensation .. it’s really difficult, plus then you won’t be able to check .. nevertheless, the powers of the landing officers were removed in vain ..
          1. garrett
            garrett 6 November 2019 11: 53 New
            +4
            other than dispensing kichi ..

            if the regiment’s political officer is working, then there’s no problem ... and the judge and prosecutor will be happy to close the scumbag ... the rest of the fighters look at this matter and draw conclusions .... as a rule, it sobered up the most stubborn for six months, then the next landing from the next appeal, etc.)))
    2. kit88
      kit88 6 November 2019 14: 34 New
      +6
      Quote: tesser
      that washing the bucket can be organized in one of two ways: men wash in a queue, or offended people wash

      .... And thieves never wash, they do deeds by common are engaged. So this sentence should be continued.
      It is quite possible to assume that this "soldier" mistook the barracks with the barracks. And no one told him how to behave here. And the command of the unit did not see what they were receiving for the replenishment. And the officer was not aware of how it was acceptable to act and how not.
      After he got wet in the toilet, it is clear who this mountain son became in one second. That now, all his life, no one from his hand shakes hands with him and does not sit down at one table. But the officer apparently didn’t know this, and he still trusted him with weapons.
      The campaign manager does not catch mice. It is necessary to work with both soldiers and officers to explain in closed sessions how it is allowed to carry out "educational work" and how not.
      1. tesser
        tesser 6 November 2019 14: 44 New
        -1
        Quote: kit88
        So this sentence should be continued.

        Thanks for the clarification.
        Quote: kit88
        But the officer apparently didn’t know this, and he still trusted him with weapons.

        It is difficult for me to believe that in Transbaikalia there are adults who do not know such logic.
        If an officer knew how he behaved, and at the same time gave a weapon, then there are no questions, at least with regard to him personally.
  19. Destiny
    Destiny 6 November 2019 08: 32 New
    +6
    As I remember now,
    We do not have hazing. It is among the soldiers of all kinds of different outrages there who are ugly. We are sailors. We have one-year-olds. wink
  20. AAK
    AAK 6 November 2019 08: 38 New
    15
    Now the problem is not so-called. "hazing", it does not exist, but there is a very serious problem of "compatriots" and "proud sons" of different peoples there ... Now the commanders of the units grab their heads if they receive big calls from the North Caucasus, Buryatia, Tuva, which results in constant fights and stabbing between servicemen ... Immediately after the Chechen wars there was almost no draft from the Caucasus, so the local authorities and residents filled up the center with all kinds of petitions like wai, abydna yes ... As a result, we ourselves begin to prepare future Dudayev-Basayevs, and in some regions like Buryatia or Tyva, Russians, especially girls and women, are simply afraid to leave their homes in the evening ... Official authorities and the federal media are silent about this, but on the Internet you can see many "wonderful examples of friendship between peoples" ... Alas The Ermolovs are gone now ...
    1. Dmitry Gundorov
      Dmitry Gundorov 6 November 2019 09: 48 New
      0
      As for the Tuvintsev, it seems that a classmate got into the part where the Tuvans were running, as a result, they grabbed the knife, okay, the officer noticed and twisted
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 6 November 2019 11: 00 New
      -6
      This has not happened for a long time. 90 percent of all recruits serve in their regions.
  21. Professor
    Professor 6 November 2019 09: 01 New
    +6
    The truth is that the toilet is not an automaton, you need to be able to understand. There is no need to clean and lubricate the toilet, a slightly different principle of operation, especially in the army type "point". It looks like a Kalashnikov assault rifle with its simplicity and reliability. So - no need to clean, just wash.

    And if an accident such as "clogged" occurs - well, yes, it does. But such delays are also eliminated by an experienced outfit in ten minutes.

    The toilet is an interesting topic in general, and I don’t agree with Roman. The toilet is not only washed, but also cleaned. And sometimes with a toothbrush.

    Case One. Next to our military town was a sapper battalion. Once upon a time there were air defense personnel on its territory. From them there was a slide under the locator. 15-20 meters high slide. There was a toilet under the slide. The cesspool was emptied with buckets and poured into pits dug at the top of the hill. Oil painting: scooped up, trudged up the hill, poured and further on the cycle. Scooped up offenders or ... right young.
    Second case. Across the road was a school of cooks. At one not young fighter, a store from a machine gun fell into a point. Guess who scooped out the cesspool?

    “You ask: where do the officers look? The answer is simple: officers look at the toilet. After all, their task is to ensure that the toilets are clean. But nobody wants to clean them, and the officer cannot offer soldiers any positive motivation. ”

    Here, of course, he is wrong. Officers do not look at the toilet. Officers generally close their eyes. Hedging is beneficial for them:
    1. This is a good lever for subordinates.
    2. Open up hazing in your unit and get it in the brains from your superiors for your inability to work with the team: "What did you do with that?"

    Rocketeer, artillery scout, signalman - not a word about bullying.

    Maybe because this is an organic part of the army and the other they have not seen? Hazard is not only assault?

    But what, to the devil, can there be hazing, when only a year to serve? Six months for training / development, and six months to train a successor? Well, everything is just like a blank shot!

    After all, she is not born in the army, and therefore the service life does not solve much. Hazing with a citizen bring.

    In our army there is no hazing, there are no grandfathers there long ago, as they switched to the annual system. It’s worth learning at least that.

    I do not believe. I do not believe, Roma.
    Even in their call there are "strong" ones who humiliate (and further down the list) their "weak" colleagues. And even if they are not "grandfathers", but this is the purest "hazing relationship".
    1. tesser
      tesser 6 November 2019 09: 17 New
      0
      Quote: Professor
      And even if they are not "grandfathers", but this is the purest "hazing relationship".

      The author is right. Hazing is a private manifestation of instability. In this case, this is generally an unregulated relationship between an officer and a soldier, and what have grandfathers got to do with it. But people got used to this word from the time of the Twinkle and sculpt it anywhere.
      Quote: Professor
      Hazing with a citizen bring.

      Like a mat from kindergarten. But whether or not to treat this is a question for the officers who have risen from hell to ensigns and foremen.
      Quote: Professor
      Maybe because this is an organic part of the army and the other they have not seen?

      Do they often tell the baht about their problems? In this regard, each family has its own rules.
      Quote: Professor
      Officers generally close their eyes. Hedging is beneficial for them:

      Yes. Until it explodes. But this is a professional risk.
      Quote: Professor
      There was a toilet under the slide. The cesspool was emptied with buckets and poured into pits dug at the top of the hill.

      Do not understand. Why is this done?
      1. Professor
        Professor 6 November 2019 09: 39 New
        +3
        Quote: tesser
        Do not understand. Why is this done?

        The toilet had to be emptied and the fathers of the commanders decided to empty it into the pits on the top of the hill. Why? One can only guess.
    2. garrett
      garrett 6 November 2019 10: 48 New
      +1
      Here, of course, he is wrong. Officers do not look at the toilet. Officers generally close their eyes. Hedging is beneficial for them:

      you seem to have left the troops a very long time ago)))
  22. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 6 November 2019 09: 42 New
    11
    “The decisive conflict of Private Shamsutdinov in the closed Gorny Mountain Zabaykalsky Territory flared up with an officer precisely about the toilet. The officer demanded that the ordinary wash him again, Shamsutdinov did not want to. Then, according to one version, the officer grabbed a private soldier and several times dunked his head right there, "accustomed to cleanliness."
    Shamsutdinov “did not remain in debt” and, starting his slaughter, killed this officer first. ”

    I was a platoon commander and I know how such “tricks” are made before handing over the outfit (premises) to the new guard. Everything has just been removed, how is “someone especially vengeful”, who deliberately spoils along and across. Just because of their meanness, just for the sake of humiliating someone. The worst thing is that everyone knows who did this, but they force the “responsible” for cleaning the toilet to repeat the cleaning procedure. In a simple way - they poke this shit.
    Perhaps you remember the episode from the movie “The Fighter” when they “lowered” the beholder “Shit”. Remember what he said "Silently"? “The goblin’s kidneys were bathed down ... Nobody could break ... And then once they dropped into a bucket - and there’s no man ...”
    I just want to know why in the army there are just such cases of criminal lawlessness? What was to be done after such a procedure in a similar way to the “humiliated” soldier? Go and break open like a "Smut"? What? I would like to know what those whom he laid on the floor said?
    Mental disorder, emotional explosion completely exclude consistency and prudence. If the soldier’s brains had simply jammed completely, he would have just let out a store for the “offenders”, and in our case he would have put it on the floor and started methodically shooting ...
    I had to work as an investigator. I had to hear different stories from the prosecutor. Therefore, I will not draw final conclusions, nor will I justify Shamsutdinov ...
    PS During the service I had to do different jobs (in my time there were work orders). As a rule, we alternated “responsibility” by lot (if we didn’t agree in words). There were no grievances: today, you, and tomorrow, me. And, to blame the officer for some injustice - it never occurred to me. True, the officers in my time did not stoop to “dunk” a soldier with his head in the toilet.
    And one moment. I never put combat training and the ability to pull a sock or stand on one leg for hours at the head of the service. Somehow I liked Suvorov's science of winning. And today, the soldier needs to be taught this, and not focus on outhouses and latches ...
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 6 November 2019 12: 40 New
      +2
      And where did it come from that they kicked him in the ass? The first time I read this from the words of a certain "soldier's mother" ... no one knows what and how
  23. Good_Anonymous
    Good_Anonymous 6 November 2019 10: 34 New
    +5


    In the army there is still a lot of heavy, dirty and very unpleasant work, which nevertheless needs to be done - the need for constant washing of floors, outfits in the kitchen (where you need to wash dishes and all kitchen utensils for several hundred eaters already), all sorts of loading and unloading, construction work (after all, the barracks and utility rooms are old, they must be patched constantly), etc. ”


    Lord Are we talking about the army, Alexey Valentinovich?


    By the way, yes - is this exactly the army? More like some kind of utility work. Learn to fight in between at least?
    1. tesser
      tesser 6 November 2019 11: 15 New
      +1
      Quote: Good_Anonymous
      Learn to fight in between at least?

      This is an interesting question.
      If you hire highly paid people for dangerous work, which you must also train quite seriously, then you are not interested in having them cleaning, etc. at the time you paid. This explained to the public the reforms of Serdyukov with outsourcing.

      But the current army in its draft unit is definitely not about that.
  24. for
    for 6 November 2019 12: 33 New
    0
    I have not read the article and comments. ,, Hazing existed, exists and will exist throughout the world, at all times. everywhere (army school work, etc., etc.). And do not confuse it with beatings, humiliation, bullying.
  25. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 6 November 2019 12: 37 New
    -2
    And the author himself knows why the army is hazing? And why without hazing, which someone "defeated", an army ... for pubs ... is impossible, and simply not needed? It follows quite clearly from the article - the author is not in the know. And it is sad to horror. I have already written about this, but apparently it is necessary to repeat it.
    What is an army in general? The army is not only a lot of people in the same clothes. She, suddenly, is a tool for VICTORY WAR. Victory, namely it should be at the forefront of any action, especially the action of the training taking place in the army. And what is victory?
    Victory is when our army has surpassed the stranger by its strength and will. Do you understand? Our soldiers go forward under fire, seeing how their comrades are killed, getting wounds, but still go there. Where? They go to battle with enemy soldiers. To grapple with them, and overcome the will of the enemy with your will. This means defeating the enemy - meeting his will of his own and breaking the stranger.
    How can you do this? How to strengthen the psyche of a soldier so that he can withstand the most powerful external pressure and overcome it? There is a method, and it is the only one. You need to put pressure on the soldier during training. At the same time, making sure that the soldier on one side was under stress all the time, and on the other did not come too close to the limit. Do "grandfathers" threaten to beat you up? Do they beat you for doing bad service? What a horror, however! Enemy soldiers threaten to kill you, and if you don’t pull out well, they will kill you! And they will kill your comrades, who are not at all to blame for not having mastered the service properly!
    The tsarist army had an institute of "uncles" (hence the name "hazing"). An old man was appointed uncle, who was entrusted with the individual training of two or three young people, and their general training. The uncle beat his young people, taught them, and defended them, answering to the authorities for their readiness. Years passed ...
    Unfortunately, the simple truths that I am now speaking have been buried under mountains of despicable hypocrisy, “correct” words and stupid ideological attitudes. The army has simply forgotten what is being done and why! And hazing, an inevitable and most important stage of education, degenerated into an abomination and stupid torture! This is disgusting guys ...
    1. Good_Anonymous
      Good_Anonymous 6 November 2019 13: 21 New
      +7
      Quote: Mikhail3
      Do the "grandfathers" threaten to beat you up? Do they beat you for doing bad service? What a horror, however! Enemy soldiers threaten to kill you, and if you are not doing well, they will kill you!


      With this approach, one should not be surprised that soldiers kill grandfathers. They simply do not see the difference between the grandfathers and soldiers of the enemy.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 6 November 2019 15: 09 New
        -5
        The army must win. If you do not teach a soldier to withstand extreme psychological stresses, then the army will simply scatter. As soon as citizens become too effeminate to pull out service, the state comes to an end, and those who endure it tear to pieces. You can read in the history books the studies of a huge number of states that ended up that way.
        In this case, the grandfathers should have been aware of what they are doing and why, as well as the officers should have been aware. Apparently, neither of them understood the institution of hazing. But even with the right approach, it happens that a person breaks down. If everything was arranged as it should, the officer was obliged to note that the soldier was not fit for service. And if the officer did not notice, then certainly grandfathers should have understood what was happening.
        Unfortunately, decades of vile hypocrisy have led to the fact that, for example, a mechanism has not emerged for the removal of a person who is unable to cope with the proper psychological stress.
        Life is tough! Why on earth did people decide that something had changed? Why do more and more people think that they HAVE the RIGHT not to strain? The world no longer smells, it just stinks of gunpowder and death! Where do those who think so hope to escape ?! There are no longer safe places on the planet! Who needs fleeing wimps? Who will accept them? What for?
        1. Kronos
          Kronos 6 November 2019 20: 01 New
          +6
          With such concepts, you need to live in the zone or among the savages there is a strong right
        2. Good_Anonymous
          Good_Anonymous 6 November 2019 20: 53 New
          +3
          Quote: Mikhail3
          In this case, the grandfathers should have been aware of what they are doing and why, as well as the officers should have been aware. Apparently, neither of them understood the institution of hazing.


          Quote: Mikhail3
          if the officer did not notice, then grandfathers would certainly have to understand


          To listen to you, the "grandfathers" must be Makarenko and Korczak in one bottle. Do you yourself believe in this nonsense? "Hazing Institute", kapets.

          Quote: Mikhail3
          Life is tough!


          Quote: Mikhail3
          The world no longer smells, it just stinks of gunpowder and death!


          Quote: Mikhail3
          There are no longer safe places on the planet! Who needs fleeing wimps?


          How much pathos. Given that the world "stinks of gunpowder and death" no more than at any time in the last 30 years.
          1. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 7 November 2019 09: 10 New
            0
            You see, everything I've described already exists. True, in those armies that we consistently beat (this was before), the work of constant pressure on the young soldier is mainly given to special sergeants. So to speak "whipping sergeants." All this is just a necessary minimum so that a soldier, any soldier of any army, does not run away at the first sounds of shooting. And a regularly stuffed face, and bullying, and senseless tasks all the way and further, and injustice ...
            All this is NECESSARY, and all this is practiced with might and main. And we even refused this. Our army will do so in a serious conflict. Run away. The various kinds of special forces that are fighting now practice much more serious practices. But special forces do not win wars ...
            1. tesser
              tesser 7 November 2019 10: 18 New
              -1
              Quote: Mikhail3
              And a regularly stuffed face

              Sorry, very interesting. Whose realities are you describing, Israeli? Or American ones based on the movie "Full Metal Jacket"?
              1. Mikhail3
                Mikhail3 8 November 2019 09: 14 New
                0
                The materials are different, the essence is the same) If you are interested in open American "material", then get yourself together and read a book under the lyrical title "Worms". Everything is much, much better described there. This book was recommended to be studied back in the USSR, in order to understand how the training of the American army elite is organized. To better understand the enemy.
                Worldwide realities. An untrained psyche cannot cope. I repeat once again. Without this INITIAL, ELEMENTARY training of the army, there simply will not be. No. No one.
                1. tesser
                  tesser 8 November 2019 09: 45 New
                  -2
                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  read a book under the lyrical title "Worms". Everything is much, much better described there. This book was recommended to be studied back in the USSR, in order to understand how the training of the American army elite is organized.

                  Military Publishing in the 79th year will not publish garbage.
          2. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 8 November 2019 09: 19 New
            0
            And by the way. Great practical psychologists are ... pubs ... many brawlers and bandits. They train to break the psyche of the enemy. This is a brawl for buzz, bandits bring money precisely this - a perfectly felt face when it suffers breaking, and how broken it is, as well as instantly, on the fly, the chosen methods of pressure. There are many millions of practical psychologists and excellent psychologists in the world; they are in every court and in every military unit. They do not write theses, of course ...
            1. Good_Anonymous
              Good_Anonymous 8 November 2019 13: 16 New
              +1
              Quote: Mikhail3
              Great practical psychologists are ... pubs ... many brawlers and bandits.


              Why are you constantly talking nonsense? All the psychological skill of "fighters and bandits" lies in identifying (not always successful) easy victims.
              1. Mikhail3
                Mikhail3 11 November 2019 12: 49 New
                0
                Why are you such a greenhouse flower? The gangster's "job" is to force different people to pay. Mostly entrepreneurs, but also other thieves. What they do. From morning till night. This is the job.
                Brawlers beat not only (and not so much) the weak. Weak beat beaten. Didn’t pay attention to the news about the boxing, wrestling, karate, world champions beaten to death? Pay) They beat with particular pleasure those who are strong, but are not ready for a real fight. Physically strong, but morally strong-willed ...
                Welcome to the real world! It's interesting here! Although scary ...
                1. Good_Anonymous
                  Good_Anonymous 11 November 2019 13: 21 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  The gangster's "job" is to force different people to pay. Mostly entrepreneurs, but also other thieves.


                  And it’s always weaker.

                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  Brawlers beat not only (and not so much) the weak.


                  Why are you such a greenhouse flower?

                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  Didn’t pay attention to the news about the boxing, wrestling, karate, world champions beaten to death? Pay)


                  Drew. Usually beaten from behind, stealthily, by the crowd. A great example for the relationship between soldiers who, if anything, go to battle together.
                  1. Mikhail3
                    Mikhail3 11 November 2019 15: 10 New
                    0
                    Communication in the format of formal trolling interests me a little. Again. For a normal conversation. I affirm that in order to bring the psyche of a young, unprepared person into a state that will allow him to fight an enemy who seeks to kill him, it is necessary to exert pressure on this psyche that is close to the limit.
                    He described how this was done before. Explained how this (with fatal errors) is being done now, and who can do it. As an objection, I see trolling cooking fragmented to the limit. It's boring.
                    Anything to object to the case? Or just a young man having fun?
  26. for
    for 6 November 2019 12: 44 New
    +3
    Quote: Moore
    Serdyukov arranged a "quiet hour" for them after lunch

    In the Navy, he was before him.
  27. Nestorych
    Nestorych 6 November 2019 12: 47 New
    +6
    And this is the opinion of a retired real general who, when he was still a colonel and brigade commander in the USSR, defeated bullying in his part:

    FELL THEY, DAMN ...
    Seven soldiers serving in the part where the mass shooting took place were hospitalized with a nervous breakdown. One of them stopped talking, the second developed psoriasis, the condition of five others is still unknown. https://news.rambler.ru/army/43093987/?utm_content=rn ..

    That's when they mocked their colleague - neither psoriasis nor neurosis did not bother them at all. But as soon as their less fortunate comrades swallowed the pool, they won’t immediately snare ...

    The shot lieutenant was an inveterate bastard, which is very typical of such a small thing - he ordered the soldiers who went to the store to buy food for him as well. Not for his own, it is understood. This was written by an ordinary, who served under his command and demobilized on the eve. The educational methods of this official are also eloquent - constant insults, rudeness and threats against subordinates. , redneck and cattle in one bottle. Apparently a captan. shot with him, was an individual no better than his platoon.
    In general, eight blindfolds.

    Of course, I do not justify the failure of Private Shamsutdinov, who shot this whole scum, but on the other hand, it is necessary to take into account the fact that he could not influence the criminal actions of his bosses and colleagues by any other means. He, of course, will be sentenced, convicted and screwed for a long time. But you need to understand - no matter what sentence was issued, this is primarily a sentence to the unit commander, chief of staff, and other commanders.

    Well, a philosophical consideration - sadly, but only by this kind of executions. can fix the unhealthy situation in the Army. which. if my memory serves me, it has come up with a violent color from the second half of the 60s of the last century and continues to blossom to this day.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 6 November 2019 14: 39 New
      -5
      And I justify the soldier if he really killed the bastards.
      1. Nestorych
        Nestorych 6 November 2019 15: 03 New
        0
        It is your right, but murder remains murder, although there are less radical ways.)
        1. Kronos
          Kronos 6 November 2019 20: 03 New
          +1
          What if if they cover up the lawlessness of the power of any army, judicial, police and so on. Only if there are patrons like Galunov can be different
  28. qQQQ
    qQQQ 6 November 2019 14: 44 New
    +6
    From personal experience, hazing was dying when the real work on technology and exercises began. And in the barracks, especially when the households were walking. work, bloomed and smelled. Moreover, it was very well supported by the officers themselves. I came to the conclusion that behind this phenomenon it is very convenient to hide my stupidity and incompetence. And they won't support me, but Serdyukov tried to do the right thing, freeing the army from unnecessary households. tasks, it is certainly more expensive, but for combat training only a plus. Already if someone is not able to do something, you can't write off what you painted, cleaned, dug. They will say that the army is not an institution of noble maidens, but also not "dzhamshuts", soldiers must be able to fight, while it is not at all necessary for him to be able to wash toilets.
  29. Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 6 November 2019 15: 34 New
    +5
    The mess in the army began with the beginning of the admission of criminals to the army, and this, unfortunately, continues ... And it's not about the outfits, but the fact that all sorts of criminal elements get stuck in a flock and begin to terrorize the rest ... My classmate is the fault of such animals I immediately got from the training camp to the hospital ... The officer corps only aggravates the situation with their gouging and dodging the service (assigned night duty in part) instead of which the officers run away to their homes ...
  30. vladimirvn
    vladimirvn 6 November 2019 16: 17 New
    +7
    In the mid-80s, I was fortunate enough to serve me, a young officer, in one part. That school of education of soldiers, and indeed the entire military collective, I remembered for a lifetime. Firstly, it was a real military team, where not a single officer left work until the whole unit completed the task for the day. Each helped a friend and was one for all and all for one. And there were sergeants. I am specially writing with a capital letter. Each officer raised a sergeant, taught him as a child. And the sergeant was usually the best in all military disciplines and was an authority for subordinates. A good sergeant was worth two or three stupid lieutenants. And God forbid the officer will see that a passing soldier did not give a military greeting to the sergeant. The officers did what the officer was supposed to do, and the sergeants did what the sergeant was supposed to do. The authority of the sergeant was such that the soldiers were afraid and respected. If the sergeant gave slack and could not force the subordinate to fulfill the order given to them, he was removed from office under any pretext. The art was to pick up such people, to educate and give moral values. Leaving home in the dark, one could be calm that the barracks would be all according to the charter. Yes, I still correspond with those sergeants.
    And the children of the mountains and other "proud" peoples were cleverly assigned to units. Someone was broken, from some sergeants were obtained. Someone was sent to eternal chores, away from weapons. Someone did not crawl out to demobilization from the dirtiest jobs. The list of those was known to the entire division. And they watched this strictly. But they did not have any dismissals to the city, no vacations, no letters of gratitude to relatives in the aul.
    Well, the officer noticed a slack in the unit, went to the cross or march to the OZK, already with a pre-approved compendium, the first and fled with everyone. Those who did not fit naturally trained in their free time. Something like this. But in another way it will not work.
  31. AleBors
    AleBors 6 November 2019 16: 34 New
    +2
    I agree. Suddenly, every dull rabble began to give advice. At one time he served, 2 years. We had hazing, but without folly. Thanks to the old-timers, they taught a lot, without a fight and humiliation.
    And we had a similar one (like Shamsudinov). He also started to shoot in the guard. After harsh suggestions about the inadmissibility of sleep at the post .. Thank God he did not kill anyone and with a pure heart went to diesel .. Or maybe to a fool.
  32. Andrey Markovich
    Andrey Markovich 6 November 2019 16: 53 New
    -2
    I served, served 7 years, left the collapse of the USSR. I do not believe a single word that says Shamskhutdinov, his father and his defenders. He, a soldier, could always turn to the unit commander, write a complaint to the prosecutor’s office, and could eventually escape. But he preferred to kill, to assume the functions of both judge and executioner. I don’t give a damn what was there; if he is sane, then the sentence is unambiguous: PLC and let him rejoice or not, that there is no death penalty. I apologize for the cruelty.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 6 November 2019 17: 50 New
      -2
      So he answered with cruelty.
      And here is what I found on the network:
      "On Wednesday, Shamsutdinov's support group on the Vkontakte social network also reported that Ramil, in a conversation with his father, allegedly said that he was sorry for two of those who were shot." It was. It's a pity, it's a pity for those two guys, but I didn't see them, and the rest ... ",
      1. Andrey Markovich
        Andrey Markovich 6 November 2019 18: 10 New
        0
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        So he answered with cruelty.
        And here is what I found on the network:
        "On Wednesday, Shamsutdinov's support group on the Vkontakte social network also reported that Ramil, in a conversation with his father, allegedly said that he was sorry for two of those who were shot." It was. It's a pity, it's a pity for those two guys, but I didn't see them, and the rest ... ",

        This is the army, and its demands for mercy, the delirium that someone who wanted to there, did not even try, you are trying to rape, turn it into a booth. The army is then an army when the discipline in it is equal to the discipline of the Roman legion of the Republic. If someone is to blame, he must also be punished. But the killer in the first place.
    2. Kronos
      Kronos 6 November 2019 20: 05 New
      0
      And if the commanders are aware, but they do not care?
  33. Parahutist
    Parahutist 6 November 2019 19: 54 New
    0
    There is another option for the complete and absolute normalization of the general condition and order in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation - this is the transfer of the draft contingent to the actual military service in military units in the immediate vicinity of the places of residence of absolutely every conscript soldier.
  34. Ezekiel 25-17
    Ezekiel 25-17 6 November 2019 20: 40 New
    0
    Quote: Kronos
    And if the commanders are aware, but they do not care?

    Commanders are not suicides.
  35. Engineer
    Engineer 6 November 2019 20: 45 New
    12
    AS a person who has observed this problem personally and from the outside I can’t help but give a lengthy comment
    The entire article criticizes another person’s article.
    In our army there is no hazing, there are no grandfathers there long ago, as they switched to the annual system. It’s worth learning at least that.

    In a narrow sense, yes. If "hazing" is a collective term for hazing, then no
    In the Soviet Union they fought with hazing and fraternity, in Russia there was also a problem, but here's the thing: they didn’t call anyone. He would explain, and he would find a solution to the problem instantly!

    Nonsense from the first to the last word. Complex problems do not have simple solutions.
    In the USSR, there were problems with the same community and bullying. They just do not correspond to the myth about the "Golden Age" of the times of the USSR, which is persistently replicated here. The contingent from Central Asia was just as troublesome as the notorious Dagestan today. The contingent from Azerbaijan had no equal in terms of problems at all. I judge by the words of my father, stepfather, old fellow officers.
    All the blame and responsibility for hazing is entirely with the officers. This I say as a man wearing epaulets.
    My first acquaintance with the barracks looked like this. A soldier was sitting on the takeoff in the last third, closer to the office. His hand was chained to the support of the horizontal bar with real handcuffs. In response to my silent question, the division chief of staff shrugged his shoulders and dropped: "I ran off to Sochi and got drunk." Passing by, he awarded the guilty one with a kick in the head.
    From the first day I understood a simple truth familiar to everyone who served. 1. In the army, not order is important, but its visibility. 2. Everything that happens in the barracks should remain in the barracks. The officers will take care of this.
    In the case of the "oblique cutter" described above, he had to be sent to the guardhouse. This discipline is worse than any physical impact, because the term of stay there does not go into the term of service. But that would mean making the case public, which is very undesirable for the careers of "comrade officers." For this reason, any game can occur in the barracks or unit, and they will cover it.
    Soldiers from the dispatcher battalion were often "referred" to our division. Disbat is a separate topic contributing to the concealment of real crimes in the army. Reading the personal files and sentences of the garrison court from some "individuals" from there. my eyes were on my forehead. Beating, which led to an open fracture of the upper jaw, rupture of the spleen, leaving the guard post followed by a "gop-stop" in the center of Moscow, finding the PM under the mattress of one of the soldiers. All these people, after serving their term in the disbat, were sent to serve in regular units. As a result, they were sent home to serve in the worst case 1-2 months after the "point". But these people were criminals who have no place in the Armed Forces, just do!
    The result - three "diesel operators" more and more tightly tidied up the unit. The soldiers gave birth to three-digit sums. I will never forget how I ran from the formation in a bulletproof vest, noticing that the light in the dryer suddenly went out. Chuika did not disappoint. A demonstrative reprisal was being prepared. A skirmish began, albeit without direct blows, during which I knocked down one of the instigators. I was promised that this will not happen again. I didn’t insist because it had gone very far. Perhaps I am to blame for giving relief.
    Upon my suggestion, the officers began to do something already. They offered me to report specific cases of discipline violations. You can’t imagine a better way to turn your blind eye. Say that Sergeant Ivanov told me that Private Petrov was fed soap? It is possible, of course, but only Ivanov will become an informer for the soldiers with all the consequences for him, but they will cease to inform me at all. In fact, none of us officers did anything at all.
    Why is crap happening in the barracks? Because the responsible officer sleeps at night in the office. This is at best. And we have one officer thumped with this contingent. And the second, under the rzhach of the old-timers, indulged in a tapik and a vole, waking up sleeping young animals with an invigorating discharge.
    Compatriots. A separate topic. In the garrison, people with no specific nationality loitering in the streets were commonplace. One of the noble establishments was closed for visits by officers by a special order from the army for their own safety. Sometimes someone from the officer corps received a tambourine from this contingent at night. Always very tough. Jaw, ribs, shake. Increasingly, I met newly arrived Caucasians on official layoffs by agreement with the commanders. This is at a time when not the worst soldiers were denied not only leave, but ordinary leave. Do I need to say how this affected the atmosphere in the unit?

    But now we all have one year, it should come to naught, right? As far as I can judge wrong. The problem of fraternity, the problem of officers, the quality problem of draftees has not gone away. Everyone who served met with mentally and physically weak people who did not belong there at all. Alternative, any service, but not the army.
    But the main problem, it is that under no circumstances do we want to see the officers' true contribution to this mess. And especially in covering and hushing up all the game that is really going on here.
    1. perm23
      perm23 7 November 2019 06: 02 New
      0
      but this is where all this idiocy sits in everyone’s head. He informed you are an informer. From here everything goes and everywhere. there you steal silent. Why is this criminal stupidity so firmly settled in all.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 7 November 2019 11: 00 New
        +1
        From where it is just clear.
        From serials about colorful honest criminals. From the questions about "how to enter the hut?" From "checks" such as the one about chairs and picks that we learn about from school.
        The thieves' way of life is part of mass culture. This idiocy is ourselves. And since the 80s at least.
        1. tesser
          tesser 7 November 2019 11: 32 New
          0
          Quote: Engineer
          The thieves' way of life is part of mass culture.

          You are right, but not quite. The perception of the state as a godfather has some basis. In particular, specifically, I am very far from the AUE culture, but after an appropriate life experience I swore to communicate with my native organs, even as a victim.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 7 November 2019 11: 40 New
            +1
            It has a reason. The problem is that AUE is originally a deceitful and extremely vile subculture. This is the greater of two evils. You can stay equidistant from the state and way of life, but to support or at least lean toward AUE, this must be a lobotomized idiot.
            Specifically about the informers in the army
            As soon as a helpline from the prosecutor’s office appears near the bedside table with a promise of anonymity, the number of real offenses decreases. Put the cameras not only on take-off, but also in the wash basin, the caper and the dryer, and it will decrease further. The person on duty calling the GDB for any movement seen in the cameras is a good idea. And it’s very important, let’s already begin to plant officers.
            1. tesser
              tesser 7 November 2019 12: 16 New
              +1
              I think you are treating the cancer with plasters. More precisely, you explain the situation from the point of view of the company. This is correct, but, I think, it should be in the head and the big picture.

              As many commentators rightly point out here, non-regulation, and even with AUE, is a problem of society, not the army. It is treated in one and only way - the elimination of compulsory membership. If conscription was needed, as, for example, in Israel - service at the place of residence, spending the night at home except during periods of increased combat readiness, etc. But since in Russia the conscription has long been a fiction, it does not produce any trained reserve, except for the reserve of janitors - to cancel and see it. With contractors, there are also songs in the genre of "Russian chanson", but where people work for money, everything is much easier both with discipline and with the rejection of devils.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 7 November 2019 12: 42 New
                0
                There are two options.
                1. We kick the officers to begin to fulfill their duties. We send packs of frizzled soldiers to the guardhouse. Etc.
                This is a simple and understandable option that is quite feasible in the current environment. It really leads to a reduction in the amount of game that is going on. For him, there is no need for a change in consciousness, society, or legal field. No need to dream. Take it and do it right now. Is it a band-aid?
                2. We begin to think about the problem at a higher level. We ask ourselves whether the people who are serving at the checkpoint or standing at the nightstand protect the Motherland? We recall the "honorable duty" in a certain amusing little book. We begin to argue and it is worth letting people who have served six months and are absolutely indifferent to this complex technique such as "Tunguska" and the T-90 tank. Let's brainstorm about increasing motivation, multi-stage selection of candidates for service.
                Option two is undoubtedly more productive. But it is absolutely impossible in our conditions. For obvious reasons. Therefore, we will just be realistic.
                1. tesser
                  tesser 7 November 2019 12: 53 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  For him, there is no need for a change in consciousness, society, or legal field. No need to dream. Take it and do it right now. Is it a band-aid?

                  This requires a change in consciousness (and, alas, in a huge number of cases - the personnel) of the officers. Theoretically, this is possible with a very serious desire of MO / GSH, but there is clearly no desire.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Option two is undoubtedly more productive. But it is absolutely impossible in our conditions. For obvious reasons.

                  I agree. But I don’t see where the first one will come from. So here I am promoting fatalism.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 7 November 2019 13: 01 New
                    -1
                    I have an seditious thought: Abolish the Military Prosecutor’s Office and merge it with the Russian Prosecutor’s Office with staff rotation. And then they enthusiastically begin to dig any muck in the army. Maybe. No guarantee of course.
                    The second direction is to strengthen the role of the so-called. "soldiers' mothers". The "comrades-officers" already get hot from them. Means it is necessary to develop this question more systematically.
                    1. tesser
                      tesser 7 November 2019 13: 12 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Engineer
                      And then they enthusiastically begin to dig any muck in the army

                      I do not believe. On the citizen of these varieties as you like. They eat each other, but ordinary people little use. Of course, there are flies, like the famous story with Shakro Young, but they don’t do the weather.
                      Quote: Engineer
                      So you need to systematically develop this issue.

                      Who will develop? I do not see a force that wants and is able to change something in this area at the level of goal-setting. Everyone is happy with everything.
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 7 November 2019 13: 23 New
                        0
                        Well then, it means that we believe that everything that we have is the result of natural social evolution and for objective reasons cannot be different. For something to change, Russia needs to stop being Russia. We are looking for a tractor, is it so? Or do we dress up en masse as d'artagnans?
  36. Unknown
    Unknown 7 November 2019 07: 18 New
    +2
    The army is the mirror of the society in which we live. about this Transbaikal shooter, that he did not know where he was going to serve? he probably lived on another planet, and didn’t know about the army what? There were no friends who served and didn’t tell how it was? went on an emergency in 1982, and knew what awaited me there. the elder brother told me something, the guys in the village who served, they added, but the men at work also talked about it. But the point was the same, not you first, not you last, everyone went through it. how you put yourself first, and the service will go. and added hold on, your call, together the easier the first year. and about hazing, and other things, that’s what I’ll say. drive the peasants together in a closed society, among them they will look for those who are weaker, and they will dig. unfortunately this is the law of nature, and this is a fact that cannot be avoided. He studied at the school in 79-82, it was also in the hostel, they flattened the 1st course, and they took away the herd, everything happened. do not get away from this. even now he worked as a security guard at the institute, in the hostel, and there, something like hazing and it was with 1-course. I don’t know how to deal with this. maybe this is a feature of our mentality? and the shooter, that he now needs to otmazyvatsya, it is necessary to explain that clicked in the head, and began to beg his own. wait, such versions will come into play that you’ll be amazed / all the same, the deadline is not short. and there where the army will go to a sanatorium will seem.
    1. tesser
      tesser 7 November 2019 10: 28 New
      -1
      Quote: Unknown
      and there where the army will go to a sanatorium will seem.

      Where he gets, it is precisely this behavior that is considered the only true one. Will continue in the same spirit - will come to success.

      Quote: Unknown
      drive the peasants together in a closed society, among them they will look for those who are weaker, and they will dig. unfortunately this is the law of nature, and this is a fact that cannot be avoided.

      Yes, you are absolutely right. Such dynamics is the norm for all groups of forced membership, especially male, youth, and initially dysfunctional, such as the prison army, from which all the majors have squandered. To prevent this from happening, heroic efforts are required, and there will not be enough heroes for everyone. Therefore, I say that there is no problem with executions, it’s all a mess that the liberals brought.
      1. Unknown
        Unknown 7 November 2019 13: 15 New
        0
        Where he gets, it is precisely this behavior that is considered the only true one. It will continue in the same vein - it will come to success ................................. here I told you, do not study life on TV, it's different. and where did you get that his action is true, in camp conditions? just the opposite. Despite the apparent similarity of the army and the zone, these are two different things. The zone is much tougher. the shooter is a runner, and a chaos. I have a claim to you, deal with this person yourself, and without a trace, so that no one knows, but don’t take everyone in a row. This is lawlessness. among offended murderers is enough. and army officers seem good uncles, compared with the camp guards. remember chaos, they don’t like anywhere, and especially in the zone. and the shooter, sitting in the CPC, will change his mind about many things, more than once he will twist his life. I don’t know how now. there are changes in the punitive system, compared with the Soviet, but he will have to sit for a long time. it won’t get into general mode, the article is firing, it’s also going to the planer for the first time, it’s reinforced, just for it. and there everything is according to the first, and God forbid. So I will remember the army more than once. will be there, and money, and telephones, and parcels once a year. All will be. he could not serve a year, and there it’s been shining for 15 years. so you need to think with your head before you do something and not just one place.
  37. EvilLion
    EvilLion 7 November 2019 09: 47 New
    0
    Hazing in one form or another is always there, and not only in the army, in any hierarchical collective, but men's collectives are always hierarchical. The question is only in the forms of manifestation, it is normal when some nishtyaks are divided by seniority, or the younger one is sent for beer, it is abnormal when it goes to ur. yard hooliganism.
  38. Yuri Gulin
    Yuri Gulin 7 November 2019 10: 51 New
    +1
    I have repeatedly had occasion to speak out on the problems of "bullying" even in that Soviet army. And I have always been of the opinion that one should not confuse the participation of senior citizens in the training process of a young soldier - sometimes quite tough participation - with criminality, which flourished in the Soviet army, albeit not on a massive scale, but on a fairly substantial volume. I don't know the Russian army well, so I can't understand where the "grandfathers" come from? For a year of service you will not become a "grandfather", if not a groan, but you can become a preparation for a soldier. Apparently this is enough not to die out of stupidity in the first battle. Now about Shamsutdinov. A soldier who refuses to obey the orders of a superior in rank or position is a war criminal who must be punished in accordance with applicable laws. If the punishment goes beyond the law, then the commander who has already given the order for punishment becomes the criminal. To carry out lynching, especially using a service weapon, and then weave tales about the "omitted" is the lot of a coward. I don't believe in this tale for one reason. The commander who "lowered" the soldier and then entrusted him with military weapons is mentally ill by definition!
    1. tesser
      tesser 7 November 2019 11: 37 New
      -2
      Quote: Yuri Gulin
      The commander who "lowered" the soldier and then entrusted him with military weapons is mentally ill by definition!

      How interesting.

      Are you interested in the Budanov case? Not the story of the murdered woman, but his attitude towards his subordinates? Have you ever heard reviews of individual vacationers with large epaulettes in one former fraternal republic? The story of one of them being wounded?
  39. fif21
    fif21 7 November 2019 11: 59 New
    0
    Those who served urgently, whose sons served, neither Roshchin nor Skomorokhs give noodles to their ears. ......, do not chop wood. The problem of hazing was, is and will be, even in the contract army. What annoys the information read - some of the criminal "make" a victim, others defend the honor of the uniform. I do not undertake to judge anyone (God be their judge) I will only say one thing - from any situation, there are at least three ways out. hi
  40. Revival
    Revival 7 November 2019 16: 45 New
    +1
    "The officer demanded that the soldier fulfill his duties ... The soldier, apparently, had already become so insolent that he sent the officer on a short but humiliating journey. Therefore, he was slightly oholon with the help of a toilet bowl. It's familiar."
    I have a question for the author.
    Is the author familiar and ordinary with dipping your head into the toilet?
    Is this the norm? Is this permissible?
    Legally in the end?
    If for the author this is a familiar routine, then "there is an opinion" what kind of humiliation is a bullet.
  41. sir
    sir 10 November 2019 16: 16 New
    0
    , damn it, I read komenty and marvel at it. I don’t have any hazing in the union. Not in Russia. Yes, it was. And it depends on the officers what kind of outrage will be in part ... or order. And the soldier correctly shot these goats. just a pity that by and large it will not change anything
  42. Eug
    Eug 12 November 2019 09: 14 New
    0
    I served in the army 87-89 after the institute as a two-year student and in rather hothouse conditions - there were a little more than a hundred soldiers in our air regiment and more than half were called up "in the middle" of institutes and technical schools, so I can only talk about what I encountered myself. So, according to my observations, those who did not want to perform their duties in a quality manner (so that other soldiers and sergeants were not punished because of them) became the "victims of hazing" first of all. They were approached according to the principle - if you do not know how, we will teach, if you do not want - we will force them. Naturally, in order to learn how to wash floors, tidy up the smoking room, "sanitize" toilets and washstands - they must be washed, tidied up, "sanitized". So they had to do it more often than others - until they learned ... Particularly vulnerable mothers considered this to be manifestations of bullying and cried to the political worker, instead of knowing that the child would go to the army, to teach him basic everyday wisdom and the basics of life in a team. In my two years, there was one attempt at real bullying, but it was severely suppressed by demotion of the unit commander and sending three old-timers to the disciplinary battalion. So a lot depends on the unit commander and on whether the officers of the unit have a real carrot and stick ...
  43. georggy
    georggy 4 December 2019 09: 10 New
    0
    Who are you protecting the author?
    This is a criminal!
    He committed a felony.
    The author of whom you want to whitewash.
    you are the last.
    The whole family of this ka shamsutdinova should be held accountable for the deeds in front of the relatives of the people whom he killed.
  44. Dzungar
    Dzungar 16 January 2020 15: 21 New
    0
    I speak as a military man even though I am a pensioner, but who forced me to serve in the year - NO NOW IN THE HAZARDOUS ARMY. There are relationships in the men's team. And they will be such as long as men serve there, and not some ... Well, you understand