Federico Carlos Gravina and Napoli: High Society Admiral

49
Napoleon said about him that if Villeneuve possessed his qualities, the battle at Cape Finisterre would have been lost by the British. There are rumors about this man that are not quite clear that he was the bastard of King Carlos III, and at the time of the birth of our hero - the king of Naples and Sicily. Some people curse him, calling them complete mediocrity and insignificance, others glorify him, claiming that if he was responsible for the operations in which he participated, Napoleon’s landing in Britain could take place, and under Trafalgar, the allies would not lose at least. The name of this man is Federico Gravina, and it is about him that the story will go today.





A boy from a good family


From the very birth, Federico Gravina was a "star boy". His father was Juan Gravina and Moncada, the Duke of San Miguel, Spain’s grand 1 class, his mother was Dona Leonor Napoli and Monteaporto, daughter of Prince Resetena, another grand. Born in Palermo in 1756, he received his primary education in one of the most prestigious educational institutions in the world associated with the church - the Clementine Catholic Collegium in Rome. Little is known about his childhood and youth, all information about him begins to come from 1775, when he becomes a midshipman, and begins his long journey through the hierarchy of ranks of Armada.

Gravina was assigned to the fleet by his uncle, the Naples ambassador to Madrid, and the boy himself, apparently, did not particularly resist such a fate, especially since he was successful - he completed the special naval training with honors, and, apparently, did not due to its origin. Then not only the inclinations of a good naval officer, but also a diplomat appeared, since Federico always knew how to find a common language with completely different people, and became a fairly popular figure in the highest society of Spain.

He received his first assignment on the San Jose ship, but he was soon transferred to the Santa Clara frigate, promoted to midshipman of the frigate (alferez de fragata). There was a war with Portugal, and the "Santa Clara" was sent to sail to the coast of Brazil, where Gravina achieved success in his first independent task - the capture of the Assension fortress on the island of Santa Catalina. But on the way back, "Santa Clara" suffered a terrible catastrophe - the ship crashed on the rocks, almost the entire crew died. Here, for the first time, another talent of Gravina, which many people will notice in the future, and which will only dry out after the Battle of Trafalgar, has vividly recommended. Despite the critical situation, he was able to escape, and even get out of trouble without much damage to his health. In the future, more than once in such situations he was very lucky, and again and again he came out whole or with minimal losses from the most difficult scrapes where, it seemed, the losses could have been much greater.

In 1778, Gravina returned to Spain, where he joined the Coast Guard, responsible for protecting the Spanish coast from raids by Algerian pirates. Having received the rank of lieutenant of the frigate (teniente de fragata) and the post of commander of the Shebeba “San Luis”, he took part in the Great Siege of Gibraltar. And although it ended unsuccessfully, and Armada's light forces did not show their best, Gravina was marked by a promotion to the rank of lieutenant of the ship (teniente de navio), and was appointed commander of the marine station in Algeciras. But here he did not stay long, and at the end of the war with the British he managed to mark in the capture of Fort San Felipe in Menorca, where he was again lucky and attracted the attention of senior officials, thanks to which he received another promotion - to the captain.

In the mid-1780's, Gravina already commanded a small detachment of ships, which, together with the rest of the Armada forces, fought with Algerian pirates in the Mediterranean Sea, and in 1788, accompanied the Spanish ambassador to Constantinople, where he first engaged in a detailed study of astronomy, conducted long observations of stars and compiled several reports, which, however, did not contribute much to the development of science. Upon his return to Spain, he was promoted to the rank of brigadier, received the frigate "Paz" under his command, and undertook to fulfill a rather gloomy task - to notify the colony of the death of King Carlos III as soon as possible. And again, Gravina was lucky, filling the Paz sails with the wind, and driving away illnesses - without much loss, in just 3 months he completed the task, after which he returned home and took command of his first battleship Paula.

From this moment, he begins to constantly combine diplomatic work and military affairs, while not ceasing to behave like a typical native of the upper classes, attending balls and social gatherings, being personally acquainted with the favorite Manuel Godoy and King Carlos IV. For this, he gained a reputation as a “parquet sharkun” in Armada, and earned a rather dismissive attitude from many of his compatriots and allied English with the French, but such people were always in the minority - despite everything, Gravina remained a military officer, and although he did not cover himself fame as regularly as some, but still remained one of the most active and successful naval commanders in Spain.

His "Paula" participated in the evacuation of the Spanish army from Oran, and after another increase Gravina went to England, combining a diplomatic mission with reconnaissance goals. The inhabitants of Misty Albion met him with honor as an ally and experienced sailor. Having studied the peculiarities of modern naval tactics and strategy of Great Britain, he returned home and received under his command a squadron of four ships, raising his flag to the San Ermenehildo (112 guns, type Santa Ana). At the head of this detachment, he took an active part in the war with France in the Mediterranean Sea, where he again and again showed himself quite well, having noted himself in several combat episodes.

In 1796, Spain signed an agreement with France in San Ildefonso, and everything turned upside down again - now the British were the enemy again, and the French were allies and friends. After this, Gravina came under the command of Admiral Masarreda, and was marked by him as one of the best junior flagships. Again, quite a successful commander, Gravina showed himself during the blockade of Cadiz by the British in 1797-1802, when, returning to active operations with light forces fleet, managed to defend the city and cause serious problems to the fleet of Admiral Jervis, as a result of which the blockade ring was loose and military and merchant ships constantly broke into the city.

In 1801, Gravina even led an expedition to the West Indies, which, however, did not achieve great results. But in 1802, the signing of a peace treaty with the British followed, and hostilities ceased, and the need for military officers in the existing fleet disappeared. Gravina was offered to become a diplomat in Paris, which was a prestigious assignment in his own way, and he agreed to fulfill it, but with only one condition - in the event of a new war he would be returned to the fleet. As a diplomat, he was close enough to Napoleon, and was even present at his coronation by the emperor 18 on May 1804.

Cape Finisterre and Trafalgar


At the end of 1804, the war with Great Britain began again, and Gravina was returned to the fleet. Since he was very popular in France and was personally known to the emperor, and in Spain enjoyed the reputation of an experienced sailor, he was appointed fleet commander, despite the availability of more suitable candidates like the same Masarreda. However, all this selectivity in the eyes of Napoleon was nullified by the subordination of Gravina to the French admiral Villeneuve, a controversial man and in the eyes of the Spaniards who did not have any makings of a naval commander, if only because he had little experience of active military operations at sea. In addition, the French, as always, behaved rather arrogantly, did not listen to the opinions of the Spanish captains, who had much more naval practice, as a result of which the relations between the allies did not immediately go smoothly.

Gravina, having raised the flag at the 80-gun “Argonaut” in February 1805, acted as a kind of transmission link between the French and Spaniards, and tried to somehow smooth out the friction that arose, but he managed to do it with difficulty. In addition, he was responsible for mobilizing the fleet and the formation of a combat-ready squadron from that scum, which at that time was the Armada. Years of peace, systemic pumping of money from Spain by Napoleon and the abominable management of Godoy negatively affected the state of affairs. The Armada was earlier inferior in terms of the quality of general personnel training to the British, standing out only for its excellent officer corps and ships, but in the 1804 year the situation was on the verge of a catastrophe - the crews were disbanded, the ships were mothballed, there wasn’t even money already about normal combat training. It was necessary to form a fleet almost from scratch, and here Gravina showed remarkable patience and organizational abilities, having managed to find funding by the middle of the summer of 1805, to form a combat squadron capable of at least more or less keeping order, and almost completing the formation of several more detachments.

Soon, an exit to the sea led by Villeneuve followed, distracting maneuvers in the Caribbean and returning home when at Cape Finisterre the allied fleet of 6 Spanish and 14 French ships was intercepted by 15 English led by Admiral Calder. The battle took place in difficult weather conditions (the sea was covered with dense fog), in which it was difficult to figure out where and who is located. Villeneuve, deciding that the most important thing was to obey the order and go to Brest, decided to ignore the fact that part of his squadron was fighting the British, and in fact left her to the mercy of fate. This part of the squadron turned out to be six Spanish battleships of Gravina, supported by several French, who had to fight against the British in the minority.

In the fog, not knowing where their own, and where strangers, the forces of the Spanish admiral fought to the last, and inflicted a number of injuries to their British counterparts, but, in the end, the ships Firma and San Rafael (both Spanish) surrendered after the destruction of the mast and the deprivation of the course, and led away by the English in tow. The next day, as if recollecting himself, Villeneuve decided to pursue the British with all his might, but supposedly a weak wind prevented him from doing this. Finally, reaching Spain, he decided not to go to Brest, as required, but to the south, to Cadiz, by which the French admiral completely discounted his actions in battle, and foiled Napoleon’s plans to invade England, stating that in the last battle he also prevailed. The Spaniards, to put it mildly, were unhappy with the actions of their French allies, who actually threw them into battle, and only a few ships and captains deserved honor and respect. Gravina himself was suppressed, and Napoleon, having received news of the incident, spoke his famous speech, giving an assessment of what had happened:
“Gravina behaved brilliantly and decisively in battle. If Villeneuve possessed such qualities, the battle of Finisterre would have ended in complete victory. ”


However, this statement did not prevent Napoleon from leaving the French admiral in charge of national prestige, and the Spanish subordinate in the fleet, which began to assemble in Cadiz.


"Principe de Asturias" in the Battle of Trafalgar


Four months the Spanish-French fleet stood in Cadiz, and standing it caused great damage to the already not the highest combat readiness of the Armada. The salaries to officers and sailors were not paid for 4-8 months, because of which they "slightly" put on a shirt, and could not even buy a replaceable uniform. Of course, there wasn’t enough money to maintain ships in the normal form, which is why there is information here and there, it may be entirely invented, or it may be quite reliable that some ships were kept in a more or less acceptable form for account ... Fundraising from officers, or rather those who had income other than officers' salaries, and could contribute to the purchase of at least paint and yarn for darn leaky sails. On top of that, an epidemic swept across Andalusia, which took a huge number of people out of the teams, to which desertion was added - as a result of which, in October, when Villeneuve decided to go to sea, it was necessary to announce mobilization of the population throughout the province, forcibly dropping anyone on ships literally grabbing people right on the streets and market squares in order to at least make up for losses, and get the right number of working hands to service the ships.

At least the basics of naval art did not have time to prepare recruits, even though Gravina did everything possible to increase the combat effectiveness of her ships at least slightly more than catastrophic. I even had to remove part of the gun crews from the fortifications of Cadiz and put them on the guns on the decks of the ships. He himself transferred his flag to the Principe de Asturias, one of the strongest and most efficient ships that remained in service, although things were far from being the best on it. A conflict with the French arose on the basis of a future exit to the sea - the Spaniards did not want to go out with the ships so sky-ready, especially since the barometer predicted a quick storm, but Villeneuve became calm and decided to act against all odds. It is possible that the French admiral, foreseeing troubles due to his behavior and knowing that he would soon be replaced by Admiral of Rossilla and sent “on the carpet” to the emperor, decided for the last time to show that he had gunpowder in the flocks, and he wasn’t must be shot, guillotined or punished in any other way, fraught with fatal consequences for his health. The voice of reason from the Spaniards, and even his own officers, he no longer heard.

The result of all this turned out to be quite predictable. The English fleet hit the Spanish-French, and although it suffered heavy losses, including the great Admiral Nelson, it achieved victory, causing tremendous damage to the allies. "Principe de Asturias" during the battle suffered considerable losses - 50 people killed and 110 wounded, from a crew of more than a thousand people, but lost all the masts and suffered considerable damage to the hull.

There is English and French evidence that, during the battle, this ship, instead of supporting the Allies, closed its gun ports and simply drifted, receiving shells from time to time on its thick mahogany sides. The phenomenon is outrageous, shameful - but not at all surprising given the fact that at least a third of the crew were people who did not really receive even the basic skills necessary for the battle, who did not manage to absorb naval discipline, and who saw this sea and these ships in the grave, because they got here directly from the streets and squares of Cadiz against their will. However, there is a possibility that such evidence has no real basis, because the chaos of the battle was such that it was impossible to talk about something with full confidence, and “closed gun ports” meant only the very low fire efficiency developed by the battleship. Despite all this, the Principe de Asturias did not give up, and, having survived the shelling and having lost its mast, was towed to Cadiz by the French frigate Temis. Federico Gravina himself was wounded in the battle, but has not yet lost his luck and mind, remaining in a cold mind. A storm was approaching, somewhere there the British towed captured ships to Gibraltar, and a number of damaged Spanish ships threw themselves onto the coast of Andalusia or drifted, having lost sails, in the open sea.

Having gathered strength in Cadiz and hastily repaired the existing ships, Gravina soon brought them to the sea, and even managed to recapture the Santa Anu from the British. Alas, the admiral’s luck ended on this - the storm was raging in earnest, the ships had to be taken back to Cadiz, and most importantly, the wound received in the battle brought a lot of problems, and soon it became very bad. Federico Gravina died on 6 on March 1806, receiving shortly before this promotion to the rank of fleet captain general. His remains are buried in the Pantheon in San Fernando, a large trace in the national stories Alas, he did not leave Spain, except for the islands in Alaska, named in his honor.

Execution can not be pardoned?


What kind of assessment can Federico Gravina give after all the above? Was he an unrecognized genius, or vice versa - complete mediocrity and mediocrity? Alas, oh, but in the assessments of this person various subjective points of view clash. The British and French, raising their opposition to the absolute, disregarded the Spaniards, and now, alas, it is their historical point of view that prevails, and Federico Gravina suffers from it, like many others.

People who do not have much sympathy for the British and French, on the contrary glorify Gravina, sometimes attributing to him those traits that were not actually observed. The Spaniards themselves are quite restrained in their assessment of this admiral, which I agree with. Of course, he was not a brilliant naval commander - not a single sign of this can be traced throughout his career. However, he was a top-notch professional, a skilled and experienced sailor who spent more than a year at sea, and more than once sniffed gunpowder in real battles, even if it wasn’t the scale of Trafalgar.

Having studied the history of Gravina’s service, one can clearly state that this person was both successful, decisive, and courageous - which in many cases was quite enough for commanding a ship or small formations. Finally, he was a good organizer and diplomat, which was especially useful to him during operations with the French allies, and the formation of battle squadrons from practically nothing. Both under Finisterra and under Trafalgar he showed enough initiative, courage and ingenuity to not call him a mediocre commander. In terms of decisiveness and initiative, he proved himself to be much better than the rather passive Villeneuve, and, more importantly, he simply had much more practical experience in the high seas, having spent more time there corny. It is possible that, commanding the Allied fleet, he, and not the Frenchman, the events could have taken a completely different course - under Finisterra Calder would have at least suffered heavy losses, and might not have taken San Rafael and the Firm with him, and Trafalgar simply would not have happened because Gravine would never have thought of having the order to go to Brest, to go to Cadiz - anything, he knew how to execute orders.

Actually, it was in the role of the junior flagship that Gravina usually showed himself best - and the flagship was initiative, successful, skillful, but still devoid of any significant creative streak. But speaking of Trafalgar, the Spanish fleet was simply doomed because of the complex of the above problems, command them even Federico, even Villeneuve, even Rossigli, even some Spanish Horacio de Nelson, because the reason was not in ineffective command, and in the systemic crisis throughout Spain, inadequate funding, personnel problems and a series of adverse circumstances like the same epidemic. All the more unfair are the attempts of some francophiles to make everything look as if Gravina was a fool, the Spanish fleet was of no value, and in general, if it were not for these noble dons from the Pyrenees, they would have shown the British where the crayfish hibernate! .. However, here as in other cases, history does not know the subjunctive mood, and it was Villeneuve that led the Allied fleet to defeat. And Gravina, no matter how professional and brave a sailor he is, will remain one of those who lost the battle of Trafalgar, covering himself with fame, albeit tragic, and chronologically becoming his last victim. By the way, the British highly appreciated Gravina's professionalism, and therefore, soon after the Battle of Trafalgar, the Gibraltar Chronicles wrote the following lines that characterize this person in the best possible way:
“Spain, represented by Gravina, has lost its most distinguished naval officer; the one under whose command the fleets, even if they were defeated, always fought in such a way that they deserved deep respect from their victors. ”


To be continued ....
49 comments
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  1. +6
    21 August 2019 18: 07
    Feast! In the morning an article about * gentleman of fortune * Morgan, and in the evening about Senor Gravine! Thanks and respect to the authors !!!
    1. 0
      April 17 2022 03: 48
      A great article on Gravina, many thanks. Has a follow up been written? Are there any links to reference material - I would love to do some more reading on this character.
  2. +9
    21 August 2019 18: 36
    Something this time, the moderators and articles from the cycle did not list, and the author’s indication of toyvo, well, toyvo recourse
    1. +8
      21 August 2019 19: 32
      Artyom, I'm afraid to congratulate you! In the morning article Valery banned me for a mat. Therefore, a modest thank you!
      Regards, Vladislav!
      Below I apologize to the gentlemen and the mistress for the moderators if either of the above is an obscene language on the resource.
      The words! Artyom bravo, bravissimo, applaud with all paws, ears and tail! Thanks for the article Vladislav! I didn’t apply it in the commentary above, although this concerns it in full and exhaustive scope !!!
      1. +6
        21 August 2019 19: 36
        ,,, ventured to suggest recourse that your comment was deleted as the best good that others would not envy wink
        1. +5
          21 August 2019 19: 44
          And you know this comment was really the best! Beautiful, stylish, elegant. And on the case! Himself at a loss for what was deleted ???
          1. +5
            21 August 2019 19: 49
            I know hi in the morning, when I read the article, Vladislav’s comment was still the only one.

            P.S. ,,, now Anastasia, for the flood slap what crying
            1. +3
              21 August 2019 20: 05
              Flood, not flood. But the mistake is not in favor of Vladislav stopudovo, absolutely! I insist on it! As in sports: a clear referee mistake.
              1. +3
                21 August 2019 20: 11
                referee error
                ,, judge for "soap"?feel
                1. +2
                  21 August 2019 20: 15
                  Exactly! I insist on the rehabilitation of a decent forum member! Freedom to Yuri Detochkin !!!
      2. +7
        21 August 2019 19: 36
        Thank you hi Why are you, colleague, from the bottom of my heart congratulating you for being banned? laughing
        1. +6
          21 August 2019 19: 39
          Guys don't know! Artyom, I ventured to address you, where there are 4 bans, there are 5 under the tail!
          However, it’s still a little bit and it will be necessary to open a nick contest to your humble flea.
          hi
          1. +2
            21 August 2019 19: 45
            Vladislav! Do not despair! I am with you (also from cats good good!)
      3. +2
        21 August 2019 20: 24
        Below I apologize to the gentlemen and the mistress for the moderators if either of the above is an obscene language on the resource.

        Are you following the path of our doctor Ludoved Dushelyubovich? He added something like that in his casual post. Yes, I’ve disappeared for several days and even in PM does not respond.
        Good evening, Vlad! I would ask you to be ... careful, or something. Do not deprive our company of your presence because of ... well, you know what. drinks
        1. +1
          22 August 2019 07: 18
          Quote: Sea Cat
          I would ask you to be ... careful, or something. Do not deprive our company of your presence because of ... well, you know what

          Good morning, Konstantin! Very good. Even you are right about caution! You’ve sinned yourself, I love the ellipsis! But! Now we have to watch this! For ?? Who knows how to explain this? laughing
          1. +1
            22 August 2019 11: 36
            And good morning to you, Sergey! Figs, you can guess who is in the mood, especially Monday morning. laughing
    2. +5
      21 August 2019 19: 47
      Is something wrong? Houston, Houston! We have problems. fellow
      1. +7
        21 August 2019 19: 57
        Yes, it may have been overlooked simply. I loaded them so that last night four of my articles were in the queue for moderation and publication laughing Now, however, three.
  3. +4
    21 August 2019 20: 00
    Reading a series about Spanish naval commanders, I admire the British). Why did they always have such a strong fleet, recalling the books about pirates read in their youth, for damning it was considered to be a sailor on an English warship, where there was strict discipline, maybe the British could succeed in this?
    1. +5
      21 August 2019 20: 16
      There is a complex of reasons, some of them could have developed specifically among the British, and some had developed among them, but many could have. Among them:
      - geographical position. The British could allow themselves to invest mainly in the fleet, ignoring the army, which, with the exception of certain periods of time, was quite small;
      - training of ordinary personnel. This is both discipline and well-established schemes of how to make a friendly crowd of gopniks from yesterday’s rabble, who will tear anyone for the king / queen (and it doesn’t matter why), without asking how many enemies are there;
      - a well-developed and rigid system for rejecting senior officers. True, it really was already somewhere in the XVIII century, before that there were problems, but then - mediocrity simply could not get up, while outstanding personalities, contrary to everything, made a quick career and headed their squadrons and fleets;
      - mass. Whatever the losses, the king always had more ships and sailors. Perhaps the only exception is the 1779-1783 war of the year when the British squadrons were scattered all over the globe, as a result of which the metropolis experienced an acute shortage of ships, which had to be covered with blood and sweat.
      - Some features of their traditional opponents. It just so happened that in terms of numbers and in the aggregate of qualitative characteristics there have been practically no equal to the British since the 18th century. The French fleet, no matter how it was praised by some francophiles, gradually fell into decline, the Spanish had a number of chronic problems that no one could solve, and when appointing commanders in these countries, the politician solved more than pragmatism - no Villeneuve and other mediocrity among the British would fall into the positions of fleet commanders, and if they did, then they would hold out for a very short time. In the following articles there will be examples of outstanding naval commanders from Spain - but who, due to politota or other reasons, simply could not prove themselves, or did not receive independent command. Gravina, by the way, also himself almost never commanded anything.

      At the same time, it’s not worth idealizing the British - they didn’t have landing operations, for every successful one there are a dozen failures, and with a bang, the ships were quite average, there was a desertion problem, etc., but all these problems were overlapped by advantages. Such a system could not be created by any continental state, although France and Spain were closest to it, plus the Japanese can be stretched to these conditions. The only country that really surpassed the British in terms of the fleet is the United States, using essentially the same methods, but at a new technological level on an economic level.
  4. +3
    21 August 2019 20: 08
    ,,, respected author hi , could you tell me what kind of chic order on the admiral’s chest and why?
    Thanks in advance Yes
    1. +6
      21 August 2019 20: 26
      Apparently, this is the Grand Cross of the Order of Carlos III, awarded in 1802 year. In my opinion, in honor of the end of the war with Britain, but I'm not sure.
  5. +3
    21 August 2019 20: 15
    I hope this does not sound clinging, but still where does the information about the "excellent" officer corps of the Spanish fleet come from ?. I'm not talking about individual captains, but in general. The British and French in all seriousness wrote how sometimes the Spaniards of that time did not go to sea because the officers suffered from seasickness.
    1. +5
      21 August 2019 20: 37
      Quote: Engineer
      I hope this does not seem clinging, but still where does the information about the "excellent" officer corps of the Spanish fleet come from?

      Biographies of a large number of officers + some third-party opinions, which, however, do not fit with the "generally accepted information", which you are talking about below.
      Quote: Engineer
      The British and French wrote in all seriousness how sometimes the Spaniards of that time did not go to sea because officers suffered from motion sickness.

      Of course, how could it be otherwise - after all, the main confrontation at sea was between the French and the British. The French constantly complained about the Spaniards, that they prevented them from defeating the British, and the British complained about the Spaniards in that these ignoramuses with their ships and sailors only distract them from the main goal - the destruction of the French fleet, otherwise they would have defeated these French women long ago! It’s convenient to blame everything on the third side, especially when she is not able to answer (after the death of Carlos III) laughing It just turns out that among the officers of Armada a huge number of people in one way or another conducted scientific activities, had real many years of experience in the sea and long voyages, and during the wars they acted and not always competently, but quite actively and reasonably, unlike from the French, and became a serious problem for the British. In a subsequent article there will be an example from the 1779-1783 war of the year, how the Franco-Spanish fleet will operate under the command of the French admirals, and how - under the control of the Spanish. Two big differences, and I have bad news for francophiles. In addition, the Armada sent military and peaceful expeditions over the oceans every year in the XVIII century, and if you dig in detail on the activities of certain ships or captains - the ships very rarely stood at anchor in one place, constantly at sea and performing certain errands. Therefore, it is very doubtful that the described picture with officers suffering from seasickness and sitting on the shore had something in common with reality.

      But yes, such information is available. This is partly a manifestation of the "Black Legend" about Spain, partly the result of the fact that the confrontation between England and France in the 2th-XNUMXth centuries remained much more obvious in history, excluding the Spaniards, and partly because Spain simply could not make its contribution to the general information background of the planet, collapsing into a severe crisis and decline, from which it got out only in the XNUMXnd half of the XNUMXth century. Do you know the point of view that there was no great Ancient Greece, because modern Greeks do not demonstrate any greatness? This is somewhere from the same opera. Someone in those days, for some reason, wrote such tales, but they were not interrupted in any way - that is why these tales remained in the wide public consciousness as truth. But I am not inclined to believe in fairy tales, I need concrete evidence - and somehow concrete evidence of the slop of the Spanish officer corps of the Armada somehow was not delivered hi
      1. +2
        21 August 2019 20: 44
        Thank you for the detailed answer.
        Perhaps you will be able to destroy the common myth. But in his head, the infection, he settled down firmly. At least in mine. Spaniards-sailors ??? Hah, really? Well, if only the Basques ...[i] [/ i]
        Then what caused the growth? Indeed, in the 16,17 centuries, everything was very sad for the Spaniards in terms of seafaring. Or is it also part of the myth?)
        1. +3
          21 August 2019 20: 52
          Quote: Engineer
          Perhaps you will be able to destroy the common myth.

          Maybe in eleven years laughing Too much has to be shoveled. And okay Black Legend - it is mainly about the XVI-XVII centuries, but about the XVIII in Russian, the cat just cried, very little, and often - greatly reduced, or is based on the same fairy tales from the category "that's how they have it in Spain, and in Russia, meanwhile, they drink vodka with bears and play the balalaika for days. " wassat
          Quote: Engineer
          Indeed, in the 16,17 centuries, everything was very sad for the Spaniards in terms of seafaring. Or is it also part of the myth?)

          In my opinion, even supporters of the "Black Legend" admit that in the XNUMXth and early XNUMXth centuries the Spaniards on the seas were just very cool, although they are silent on a lot of facts. I don't know where you read that they were all bad there at that time request Look through Makhov's blog in ZhZhshechke on the tag "Spanish fleet", there is just about this period told a lot of things, very bad. But this is all from an almost unknown history. We then, for example, know that the British, due to the robbery of shipping and foreign colonies, robbed huge amounts of money from the king of Spain, and appropriated to themselves, but that the Spaniards did not lag far behind a similar robbery of the British in a civilized society of gentlemen do not remember laughing Everyone remembers the victories of Hawkins, Drake and others, and they do not remember how often they messed up - but at the same time, they do not know and do not want to know the victory of the Spaniards, while savoring their smallest defeats as the best wine.
          1. +2
            21 August 2019 20: 59
            But for the 16-17th century I will rest until the end. I was still 14 years old while reading about travelers I noticed how Spaniards looked pale on the sea. Columbus, Magellan - all foreigners. A shocking impression was made by their comparison with the Portuguese neighbors, who against their background looked like real sea people.
            The last thing I read on the topic was Cayman's book Spain The Way to the Empire. The author convincingly showed that all the work at sea at that time was done for them by the Basques, Portuguese and Flemings.
            1. +2
              21 August 2019 21: 09
              laughing Colleague, you are hot. At that time, the question of nationalities did not even arise, look at who was served - and there were more than enough Spanish kings and queens among the discoverers and conquistadors. Malaspina is also Italian, but no one fastens his expedition to the scientific achievements of Italy. Italians, Basques, Flemings, Portuguese for a short period of time - they were all served by the Spanish crown, and these achievements belong to her as well as to these nationalities to no lesser extent, and even more. Or do you want to say that if on the world map a small but proud Basque Country would have achieved the same successes at sea? It’s not Spain that looks pale, here you’re strangely judging request Then let's immediately throw overboard all the commanders, scientists, sailors and others who lived and worked in Russia, but by nationality were representatives of minorities (Ostsey nobles, for example) or even hired mercenaries. Then I have VERY bad news for you, because without Kruzenshtern, Bellingshausen, Essen, any Osten-Saken, on land - Barklaev de Tolia, Bagrationov, the picture will also look ... Pale.
              1. 0
                21 August 2019 21: 26
                Well, here we have a methodological difference. I evaluate achievements precisely from the point of view of the nation. And you from the point of view of the country or even the empire, as is the case with Spain. Then we are not talking about Spain, but about the state of the Habsburgs at that time. These are all his achievements, not Spanish.
                I'm just trying to highlight the national contribution. Why is another question. For me, the existence of nations in the 16th century is a fact. The phrase of Charles the Bold (said long before the 16th century) comes to mind: "we are other Portuguese." People were already aware of their national identity then.
                The Basques were sailors without Spain. We went to the Atlantic, caught herring, and beat whales. By the way, I’m sure that these fishermen, in pursuit of cod, would have discovered America without Columbus. Spain only gave some new application to their efforts. Moreover, the isolation of Basque society has survived to this day.
                1. +1
                  21 August 2019 21: 42
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Well, here we have a methodological difference. I evaluate achievements precisely from the point of view of the nation.

                  What do they usually do for all sorts of manipulations laughing No, I do not blame, just this technique is somewhat ... Original. Yes. it turns out that the title Castilians lit up a little in the Navy - well, the Basques and others were not in such a hurry to serve in thirds as the inhabitants of the central regions of the country. In multinational states, which, in fact, was and is Spain, such a methodology is doomed to manipulation and manipulative conclusions, because it absolutely does not take into account the structure of the entire state and society, but is only guided by only one selective parameter, which, moreover, at that time was not as relevant as it is now. Here, for example, she can try to also walk in the UK fleet - there was a very small number of Irish there. What can we say by this? What are the Irish slop sailors? But what about discriminatory laws that prevented Irish Catholics from holding high positions? And so on.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Then we are not talking about Spain, but about the state of the Habsburgs at that time.

                  We are talking about the Crown of Spain. This is a completely scientific and legal term, still EMNIP from the XIV century. The Habsburgs are only one of the ruling dynasties, its kings are only rulers and main defenders of the interests of this Crown, if we argue according to the laws of that time. America, by the way, was opened not by the Habsburgs, but by Trastamar.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  People already realized their national identity.

                  No further than at the level of the aristocracy, and that - not always. The national issue has not yet been discussed in the wider public consciousness, although I agree that in Spain these issues began to progress earlier than others.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  The Basques were sailors without Spain.

                  Yes, but would some prospective independent Basque country have as many resources as would provide the same number of conditional jobs as large Spain? Yes, many of the prominent sailors of Armada were Basques, but they proved to be so successful also because a large state could provide a large fleet, and therefore many opportunities for service. An independent Basque country could not have achieved this, and then the Basque mercenary mercenaries would have to engage in neighboring states .... And how then would it be different from the service of the Crown of Spain, in the context in which we look? No way.

                  And yes, the Basques would not have had so many prominent Armada officers - they themselves live by the sea, while the EMNIP from the 15th century almost 100% of the population are nobles laughing Of course, locals could score many posts, there are so many of them !. And what, by the way, to do with ordinary members of teams? Were they all foreigners too? If the captain is a Basque, then the team is also at the 100% - Basques? And how then to judge if, for example, the captain and a dozen sailors are Italians and fifty Castilians, in whose achievements we write such a voyage, Castilian or Italian? Or, perhaps, we still will not judge from the point of view of nationalities where it is not applicable (in multinational states, in a fairly international Europe)? smile
                  1. 0
                    21 August 2019 21: 59
                    My findings are as follows:
                    Actually, the Spaniards (Castilians, Asturians, Galician, Leon, Navarre, etc.) are so-so sailors. If you add the Basque, Flemish and Portuguese in commercial quantities, there will be some sense.
                    Basques are good sailors. Without Spain or with it independently. With Spain, they wore embroidered uniforms and drove ships with 100 guns without her torn pants and drove fragile fishing ships. Even under the rule of Spain, they lived for generations by the sea and for the most part spat on kings, unless forced recruitment took place. Then they spat doubly and cursed.
                    The English fleet is good with and without the Irish, Welsh and Scots.

                    What is manipulative? I am interested in highlighting the kind of potential of a nation to compare empires, post-empires, national states in different aspects. Without hasty generalizations. The same Spaniards are weak at sea, but for a long time gave heat on land. That's all.
                    1. +1
                      21 August 2019 22: 13
                      Quote: Engineer
                      I am interested in highlighting a certain nation potency

                      The potentials of a nation are a too vague concept and often divorced from the realities of the environment. In addition, an attempt to determine the potencies of nations may be the first step in assessing them as the best, worst, best, untimely.... However, I do not think that you will go that far. In any case, to judge individual nationalities in isolation from the general background of a single multinational state - IMHO, it is a mistake, as to compare the comparison of nations and the comparison of states. In the vast majority of discussions, including this, it is about the state and its subjects. Speaking of the Spaniards, I mean the Crown of Spain, and not specifically of the titular Castilians, speaking of Spain - I am talking about the multinational state that it was, is and will probably be in the future.
                      1. 0
                        21 August 2019 22: 22
                        Well, since in my writings there was no hint of Mine Kampf, then excellent))
                        In general, against the backdrop of this cycle, an article suggests itself about the personnel of the Spanish fleet of that time: officers, sailors. Recruitment, training, promotion. Well, with the analogies of the French or the British. What do you think?
                      2. 0
                        21 August 2019 22: 29
                        Briefly, I have already covered this issue in an EMNIP article two years ago. And so, in general, I planned to describe the state of the Spanish fleet in 1805 in detail, although not with rich analogies about the British)) But still with some comparisons, so that it was clear what the strengths and weaknesses of the Spaniards were, and why it was so bad everything worked out. Although about the latter I have already walked briefly in articles and discussions.
                      3. 0
                        21 August 2019 22: 32
                        Here it is rather necessary to compare with the French. Against the backdrop of the English of that time, everyone looks pale
                      4. 0
                        21 August 2019 22: 42
                        This is when compared superficially smile If we go deeper, look at individual articles, then everyone has strengths and weaknesses, as everyone will have an advantage over the others. Another thing is that the shoals of the English fleet more than overlapped with advantages, while the Spaniards and the French did not.
          2. +1
            21 August 2019 22: 32
            Quote: arturpraetor
            Everyone remembers the victories of Hawkins, Drake and others, and they do not remember how often they messed up - but at the same time, they do not know and do not want to know the victory of the Spaniards, while savoring their smallest defeats as the best wine.

            Artem, welcome. Thank you for the article. Although today's hero is inferior, in my opinion, to the previous one both in terms of accomplishments and in terms of the dramatic fate, the narrative itself did not become less exciting from this. hi
            Not so long ago, somewhere I read, or heard (probably from Klim Zhukov) about the so-called. "English Armada", defeated by the Spaniards a year after the defeat of the "Invincible Armada" by the British. It was Drake who commanded the "English Armada" and for some reason in our historiography this episode, in contrast to the defeat of the Spaniards, is given catastrophically little space. So little that, for example, although I have been interested in history in detail for quite a long time (although I am more interested in Russian history), I learned about this episode less than a year ago or so.
            I believe that in the Soviet period this episode was not particularly advertised because it did not fit very well with the general concept of historical development that was planted in the USSR (advanced bourgeois England defeated reactionary Spain, which had built up wealth by robbing the poor Indians), but why today, in the era of total Anglophobia, these topics are not discussed in the most active way I do not understand.
            1. +2
              21 August 2019 22: 38
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Not so long ago, somewhere I read, or heard (probably from Klim Zhukov) about the so-called. "English Armada", defeated by the Spaniards a year after the defeat of the "Invincible Armada" by the British. It was Drake who commanded the "English Armada" and for some reason in our historiography this episode, in contrast to the defeat of the Spaniards, is given catastrophically little space.

              Yeah, one of the moments that the British really do not like to remember)) And which is not often remembered with us, although more often than much more. Drake, by the way, was beaten by the Spaniards before, for company with Hawkins, when they decided to rob the Spanish colonies, and ran into a combat squadron. But this is also from the fact that it’s hard to find out, and to remember too - I know this episode, but I don’t remember the details now.
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              but why today, in the era of total Anglophobia, these topics are not discussed in the most active way I do not understand.

              So we have almost the entire history of the Western powers, with rare exceptions, roughly written by English historians smile The Spaniards simply got more than others, because few in Western Europe loved them. The stories of other states are also best studied from the writings of various historians, primarily domestic ones (in the sense of the Spaniards about Spain, etc.). And then, after all, other tales also go with us - for example, that Flanders and the Netherlands fed the Spanish Empire in terms of taxes, although in reality, when checking information by Spanish historians, a completely different picture emerges laughing But, by the way, the situation is now better than before - more and more is being written about Spain, although not as much as it could be.
  6. +1
    21 August 2019 20: 41
    Federico Gravina died on March 6, 1806
    "I am a dying man, but I die happy; I am going, I hope and trust, to join Nelson, the greatest hero that the world perhaps has produced."
    "I am dying, but I am dying happy and I hope to join Nelson, the greatest hero the world has ever created."
    1. +4
      21 August 2019 20: 45
      I did not see this information when I wrote the article. Thank you for the addition hi
      1. +5
        21 August 2019 20: 53
        There is one interesting point. In the English-language biography of Gravina, these are his words.
        However, in a Spanish biography, dying, he says to his pastor Pedro Bueno: ““ Yo estoy sumamente tranquilo y conforme con la voluntad de Dios en mi interior. No me es sensible dejar este mundo; deseo morir como buen cristiano: sólo temo la presencia del Divino Juez que me ha de sentenciar en muriendo. "
        Spanish is not my strong point and there is no translator nearby, but the Google translator allows you to roughly understand the meaning: "I am extremely calm and satisfied with the will of God. I want to die like a good Christian: and I am afraid only of the presence of a Divine Judge, who should sentence me to death."
        1. +4
          21 August 2019 20: 57
          I didn’t find it either recourse However, I did not dig too deeply, as it was indicated in the first post on Gastaneta - only the most general and publicly available information from the Spanish segment of the Internet, of which there is either negligible in Russian, or, in principle, not. By the way, about the same Gravin had to greatly reduce the number of references to combat episodes and participation in certain "big cases", otherwise the article would have come out too long - the man really had huge practical experience as a sailor and naval commander.
  7. 0
    21 August 2019 21: 59
    Thank you, Artyom. hi Beautifully written and easy to read. But here I can’t get rid of one stupid song that spins in my head all the time:
    "Whatever they do, things don't go ..." (C)
    No, the truth is, both the ships are good, and the officers are sensible, but there is no sense. No, I understand everything: financing, problems with teams, but ...
    There is English and French evidence that, during the battle, this ship, instead of supporting the Allies, closed its gun ports and simply drifted, receiving shells from time to time on its thick mahogany sides.

    But this is impossible to explain! Have you seen similar cases in other fleets? I am not very familiar with the time, maybe this is not an isolated case, but commanders are brought to justice for such behavior in battle, regardless of the reason for what happened.
    Regards M.Kot. hi
    1. 0
      21 August 2019 22: 26
      Quote: Sea Cat
      But this is impossible to explain!

      Colleague, staff the team somewhere by a third with forced recruits of people who before that did not pull the strap as serfs, but were personally free, and lead them to the battle a week later, without really explaining what was being done and how. A similar result will be quite predictable. Actually, the pre-battle position, in which there were not only the Spaniards, but also the French, I already described in the article:

      The salaries to officers and sailors were not paid for 4-8 months, because of which they "slightly" put on a shirt, and could not even buy a replaceable uniform. Of course, there wasn’t enough money to maintain ships in the normal form, which is why there is information here and there, it may be entirely invented, or it may be quite reliable that some ships were kept in a more or less acceptable form for account ... Fundraising from officers, or rather those who had income other than officers' salaries, and could contribute to the purchase of at least paint and yarn for darn leaky sails. On top of that, an epidemic swept across Andalusia, which took a huge number of people out of the teams, and desertion was added - as a result of which, in October, when Villeneuve decided to go to sea, he had to declare a population mobilization throughout the province, forcefully drive anyone off literally grabbing people right on the streets and market squares in order to at least make up for losses, and get the right number of working hands to service the ships.


      In such a situation, it is generally dangerous to go to sea. I am sure that if this happened in Great Britain or Russia, the fleet would simply be declared unfit for action and left in the port. But not in the conditions that developed within the framework of the Spanish-French alliance! Yes, if not for the backbone of the "old-timers" - there most of the Spanish and French ships would have thrown out the white flag at the beginning of the battle! And, on the other hand, the crew of the San Juan Nepomuseno, as far as I can tell, suffered little from the epidemic - and performed best in battle. Almost on an equal footing. By the way, there was another similar ship, and there is also a similar situation. So judging the entire fleet according to Trafalgar is so-so business, because Spain went to Trafalgar for 17 years, and before that everything was not so bad, I would say - even with varying success, which will be the next articles.
      1. 0
        21 August 2019 23: 17
        Those times are difficult to judge, people were a little different. In our SA, recruitment was also "voluntary-compulsory" and most of the recruits would prefer to stay at home with their girls. But in quarantine everyone was quickly "brought to life", he himself was like that in the first year in training, then, already a sergeant, he drove the young in quarantine. Truth without any fanaticism. I understand that it is ridiculous to compare the then Spanish fleet and the SA of the late sixties, but the policy of "carrot and stick" has existed since ancient times.
        Be that as it may, I am interested in reading you and learning what I would not have known without your articles. smile drinks
        1. +2
          21 August 2019 23: 25
          Quote: Sea Cat
          In our SA, recruitment was also "voluntary-compulsory" and most of the recruits would prefer to stay at home with their girls.

          In the Soviet Army, this did not happen during wartime. Those forcibly recruited were absolutely sure that they would be led to slaughter, if not tomorrow, then next week. And, which is typical, they were right. Plus, the episode with the "Principe de Asturias", although it is very likely, is not the fact that it took place in reality - as I indicated in the article, to see such details during the battle, when everything was covered in smoke, from another ship is somewhat problematic , especially since, in addition to the details of the gun porticoes, there were also such things that you couldn't see AT ALL from another ship (the servants closed the ports and moved to the other side so as not to be wounded by wood chips).
          Quote: Sea Cat
          but the policy of "carrot and stick" has existed since ancient times.

          Colleague, in a couple of weeks, you can only make cannon fodder from any rabble. The fact of the matter is that everything happened quickly - at the beginning of October Villeneuve decided to go to sea, the Spaniards took as much time as possible to recruit recruits and prepare them, but Trafalgar happened on the 21st. Despite the fact that recruits during this time had to be collected from almost all of Andalusia, delivered to Cadiz, distributed among the ships, the ships themselves had to be taken out of "hibernation" into which they plunged after 4 months of standing still ... Oh, yes, do not forget that the cat cried out for money, the "old men" were not paid the devil knows how much, and combat training, as a rule, requires some funds. So that after that something good happens - this does not happen.
          1. +2
            21 August 2019 23: 30
            I almost agree with everything, but this:
            take the ships themselves out of hibernation, into which they plunged after 4 months of standing still ... Oh yes, do not forget that the cat cried money, the "old men" are paid
            This is a systemic crisis in the country, which, in general, decided everything in advance and regardless of Trafalgar? It remains to regret those who could and wanted, but did not have the opportunity.
            1. +2
              21 August 2019 23: 39
              Quote: Sea Cat
              This is a systemic crisis in the country, which, in general, decided everything in advance and regardless of Trafalgar? It remains to regret those who could and wanted, but did not have the opportunity.

              Yes, this is a systemic crisis, both economic and political. Under Carlos III, things were not exemplary, but generally successful, but Carlos IV barely inherited the crown - when something obscene immediately began. The government was formed weak and mired in hellish corruption, in 1793-1795 the Spanish army, fighting with the French on Spanish soil, SUDDENLY turned out to be poorly dressed, practically without supplies, and small in number - there was not enough money to mobilize large forces. The fleet somehow acted, but the number of pennants in the ranks was constantly decreasing, and during the armistice of 1802-1804, Armada completely went to the 95 percent in reserve, from where it then had to be taken out with enormous difficulties - and all because a fairly wealthy Spain suddenly began to lack funds. There was money, but so far they will cut it on corruption schemes, until they pay money to Napoleon (he godlessly milked the union state, taking advantage of Godoy’s pliability), while they spend on all sorts of different excesses that even Carlos III did not allow himself, until now ... And the money does not reach the army with the fleet. It is possible to write down the scale of the problems for a long time, but if, briefly, due to a combination of circumstances, the state for some 20 years after the death of Carlos III turned from one of the leading powers of Europe into a puppet, and after 40 years in general turned into a godforsaken outskirts of Europe. For all this, you should thank Carlos IV and Fernando VII - at any other time they would have become just bad monarchs, but it was during that historical period that they turned out to be a bucket of nicotine, tearing the hamster into atoms.
              1. +2
                21 August 2019 23: 42
                What can you do, not only we are "lucky". request