The navigator told about the moment of collision Su-34

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The press publishes materials with reference to the testimony of one of the pilots who was in the sky during the collision of Su-34 aircraft in the Far East. We are talking about the navigator, who survived after the collision of bombers over the Sea of ​​Japan.

The navigator told about the moment of collision Su-34




Recall that the collision led to the death of several servicemen of the Russian Aerospace Force of the Russian Federation (the bodies of two servicemen were found). Previously the cause of the death of the pilots after the ejection was previously called the fact that they are entangled in parachutes.

Information service TASS leads the statement of the pilot, referring to an unnamed interlocutor:
It was cloudy. For some time (navigator) watched the driven aircraft. Then he turned his attention to the instruments, and then he felt a blow. Their plane rushed forward, the car went into the cabling (lifted up its nose), then Su-34 began to collapse on the right wing.


At the moment, the navigator Su-34 is in the case of a collision of two planes as a witness. According to his testimony, after the strike and the beginning of the cabling of the combat vehicle, a bailout occurred. He saw the dome of the parachute commander.

Recall that the disaster occurred approximately in 35 km from the coast of the Sea of ​​Japan. Both of the aircraft that had collided were from the 277 regiment, based at the Khurba airfield in the Khabarovsk Territory.
136 comments
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  1. +1
    25 January 2019 07: 30
    Will the debris get out?
    1. +23
      25 January 2019 07: 46
      Until the end of the investigation, it is not correct to say so, but often there is a craving for recklessness, and this is in the blood, sometimes we Russians do not, plus some kind of historical belief in "maybe" breaks through at the most inopportune moment, through the strictest prohibitions, instructions and sometimes sanity ... Navigator health. Condolences to the families of the victims!
      1. +2
        25 January 2019 08: 35
        The navigator was lucky of course ... Can he just tell as a witness? It's two or three seconds and that’s it ..
        1. -18
          25 January 2019 08: 37
          The slave su-xnumx crashed into the lead. Lost two of the latest bomber. Then the pilots became entangled in parachutes.
          There was an article on the Khurba airfield. https://topwar.ru/83247-aerodrom-hurba.html
          And what is going on in civil aviation schools.
          1. 0
            25 January 2019 09: 45
            And what is going on in civil aviation schools

            And you, when you were a student, did not indulge? Nothing to remember? It doesn't matter whether it is a military or civilian university. In the military, it is even more necessary to "have fun", because and so restrictions in everything. Voltage must be relieved. I know only 2 ways: s.ex and alcohol .. I've found another option.
            1. +30
              25 January 2019 09: 56
              Something I do not remember this in a military school. The voltage is relieved by night alarm, a march of 6-10 km, morning exercises with a bare torso to -5. There is still time to think in outfits, patrols and guards. In the evening you fall into bed like a murdered man. Time during the day is scheduled per minute.
              1. +1
                25 January 2019 10: 40
                reset by night alarm, 6-10 km march, morning exercises with bare torso up to -5

                Sad and boring ... to be honest. It is in the first year you can "have fun", but in the older?
                1. +4
                  25 January 2019 13: 31
                  Quote: Maksim74
                  Sad and boring ... to be honest. It is in the first year you can "have fun", but in the older?

                  Do you think we drove less in senior courses? Not at all. The loads in the senior courses were only increased for us, and in addition, term papers and practices were added, we also managed to engage in scientific work in the departments (well, who wanted to and was capable of course). Well, to relax, well, if it turned out to break into the ridge, and there it grows together, does not grow together ... We were not bored, and even more so for our commanders.
                  1. 0
                    26 January 2019 17: 17
                    And you think we drove less in senior courses

                    I sincerely thought that senior courses are already studies in a specialty. Rather, its specificity. And OFP is already in second place. Let's look at the nephew in Mozhaik ..
                    1. 0
                      27 January 2019 15: 01
                      Quote: Maksim74
                      And you think we drove less in senior courses

                      I sincerely thought that senior courses are already studies in a specialty. Rather, its specificity. And OFP is already in second place. Let's look at the nephew in Mozhaik ..

                      RPP moved to second place immediately after MBP. For physical training - morning, 1 pair of AF every other day, cross or march after sampo (lofa, if only 5 km) on the day when there is no AF. But AF is not a burden. The load is night work, outfits, guards, tidy, PCBs. In lectures, diagrams of falling asleep were drawn instead of abstracts. Only in the 4th year a little slack was given, but there the habit was developed that the rolls were not relaxed.
                2. +4
                  25 January 2019 18: 53
                  In winter, thirties on skis on Saturday, only then on the hill ... And in summer, at 3 am at 25 am, a XNUMX km march to the training center. I never thought and would not believe until I myself experienced what a dream on the run is! The "box" is running, the outer ones are watching the order, but inside they are practically sleeping! After a while, they changed ...
                  1. +1
                    25 January 2019 22: 34
                    Quote: Yngvar
                    In winter, thirties on skis on Saturday, only then on the hill ... And in summer, at 3 am at 25 am, a XNUMX km march to the training center. I never thought and would not believe until I myself experienced what a dream on the run is! The "box" is running, the outer ones are watching the order, but inside they are practically sleeping! After a while, they changed ...

                    And I thought that only I could do that! True, on foot, but the same at 3 nights.
            2. +6
              25 January 2019 10: 21
              Quote: Maksim74
              I know only 2 ways: S.ex and alcohol .. here they found another option.

              And have not tried sports or "flying to the KTS" ...... or in the "school" everyone has already become "chkalov" and you can .. everything ??? belay
            3. +2
              25 January 2019 11: 02
              Sport still helps.
          2. +7
            25 January 2019 09: 55
            So what? We, too, were playing the fool as cadets. Normal pilots came out and fought honestly. But the training of pilots is now forced and is often poorly systematized, especially theoretical: "Read it there, look here, because I have no time, I have to write down all the nasty stuff that was thrown off from above, make a photo report, send and report ......"
          3. +2
            25 January 2019 11: 22
            Did I go to hell in Kachu?
            Here is Ulyanovsk - everything is different
            There would be a house, a car, a summer residence
            And I would drive "Watermelon"
            © Anisimov
            1. 0
              26 January 2019 00: 00
              Quote: Alexey RA
              I went to hell Kachu?
              Here is Ulyanovsk - everything is different
              There would be a house, a car, a summer residence
              And I would drive "Watermelon"
              © Anisimov

              mnu from the house to her was 1,5 km.
              in the early 80s, often decommissioned aircraft rolled out of the territory. to the joy of children and thrifty uncles. :-)
              the kid sawed magnesium, the uncles stocked up with sheathing sheets, refractory materials and other nishtyaks ...
          4. +5
            25 January 2019 12: 33
            [/ quote] [quote = Aristarkh Ludwigovich] Slave su-34 crashed into the lead. Lost two of the latest bomber. Then the pilots became entangled in parachutes.

            I don’t understand why they are minus, can they explain? What did Aristarchus write wrong? After all, everything is true. The truth is that the flight operation manual and the RPE are written in blood, and this case is a good example that, as always, will not teach anyone anything. The teachers told me that up to 500 hours of flight you will have no problems, but with gaining experience afterwards, you will get the feeling that you know everything and know how, it’s dangerous, and the second category is subject to such risk by experienced pilots. This was said by a teacher from the UTC.
            1. 0
              25 January 2019 12: 44
              Quote: Sirocco
              I don’t understand why they are minus, can they explain?

              Patriots really do not always like it. The forum also has its own subculture, which can also collectively extinguish the opinions of others.
              https://topwar.ru/147405-orden-torkvemady-na-voennom-obozrenii-smeh-skvoz-slezy.html
              1. +5
                25 January 2019 16: 08
                Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
                https://topwar.ru/147405-

                I don’t know how real this is, I propose to make the pros and cons visible, that is, they should see the nickname of the voter, both plus and minus, it will be possible to ask minusers questions, and I think this bad practice of spitting minuses will decrease, as anonymity will go away, and a possible response can make you sober up from impunity by these secret ballots. In general, the minuses were brought back in vain.
                1. +4
                  25 January 2019 17: 17
                  Quote: Sirocco
                  I propose to make the pros and cons visible, that is, they should see the nickname of the voter,

                  It used to be that way. Do you think it will prevent me from expressing my "minus" attitude to the comment I did not like? winked
                  1. +1
                    25 January 2019 20: 43
                    Quote: Monos
                    Quote: Sirocco
                    I propose to make the pros and cons visible, that is, they should see the nickname of the voter,

                    It used to be that way. Do you think it will prevent me from expressing my "minus" attitude to the comment I did not like? winked

                    I don’t remember what was visible.
                    1. -1
                      25 January 2019 21: 12
                      Quote: lis-ik
                      I don’t remember what was visible.

                      Well, my friend, you need to train your memory. Although ... Maybe I need such training. what smile Perhaps this was the case in another forum ...
                      Yes, in any case, it will not affect much.
                      1. +1
                        25 January 2019 22: 41
                        Quote: Monos
                        Quote: lis-ik
                        I don’t remember what was visible.

                        Well, my friend, you need to train your memory. Although ... Maybe I need such training. what smile Perhaps this was the case in another forum ...
                        Yes, in any case, it will not affect much.

                        No, you're right! It's just that the person is too young for the site. Or just did not use this feature! I remember that it was possible! And it was interesting!
                      2. +1
                        25 January 2019 22: 47
                        Quote: non-primary
                        No, you're right!

                        Well, glory to the Creator! And then I was already worried about my memory. smile drinks
              2. -1
                25 January 2019 20: 42
                Quote: Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
                Quote: Sirocco
                I don’t understand why they are minus, can they explain?

                Patriots really do not always like it. The forum also has its own subculture, which can also collectively extinguish the opinions of others.
                https://topwar.ru/147405-orden-torkvemady-na-voennom-obozrenii-smeh-skvoz-slezy.html

                It looks like another order has formed here now. Order of stubborn witnesses of a cunning plan.
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. +6
            25 January 2019 10: 28
            Quote from rudolf
            What were the conditions of visibility, how cloudy, how close the follower pressed against the leader, whether the commander was going to perform any maneuver at the heading, altitude, in connection with which he was distracted from observing the follower.

            Rudolph, greetings ... there is no need for anything .. "invent" soldier
            Everything is already .. "invented" ... before us soldier

            Chapter VI, Section - Group Flights, Articles - 397-412
            Mission statement for flights is carried out only in strict accordance with ... "the letter of the law."
            But that’s why the slave made a collision ... there can be a lot of reasons, up to the mistakes of the leader
        3. +6
          25 January 2019 10: 07
          Here the essence of unprofessional actions! Why didn’t the senior in the group dismiss the line, why didn’t they switch to flight mode one at a time about a minute away .... Why are there such commanders in the link, why were there three of them? Something does not add up? So they lie to us! Why? Why did the leadership group not monitor the air situation .... What was their honorable mission, what level of training did the pilots have, what conditions did the flights meet according to the plan and really ....? Why such stupid comments? It would be better if they were silent ....
          1. +7
            25 January 2019 10: 50
            Quote: okko077
            Why the eldest in the group didn’t dismiss

            The question is legitimate soldier
            Quote: okko077
            why didn’t they switch to flight mode one by one at a distance of about a minute ..

            Only at a time interval, not at a distance. soldier
            Quote: okko077
            Why are there such commanders in the link, why were there three of them?

            Because during takeoff there were 2 pairs (that is, one link), one had an engine, 3 cars left for the route ... the remaining one plane "imitated" a pair (after all, the LTU is still) ... although there should always be a reserve crew or aircraft standing at the preliminary start on the other side of the runway or in the "pocket" soldier
            Quote: okko077
            . What was their honorable mission, what level of training did the pilots have, what conditions did the flights meet according to the plan and really ....?

            Everything according to KBP-OTA-2014 soldier
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 11: 59
              I understand that our front-line aviation there temporarily ended? Two fell, one got debris, the fourth did not take off due to the engine ... Repair, regulation, lack of engines and spare parts ..... Did you calculate everything? .... How many pieces are left in the country? Who needs 300 Su -34 a lot? It is not enough for me? Are 1,5 divisions enough for the whole of Russia and business trips? Greetings to aviation tankers and other near-air insanity and Rogozin big and small and superjets, fuck no one needed and go out with narrow-headed without fiber and filler on MC-21 .... These are just flowers ....
      2. 0
        25 January 2019 21: 34
        I fully agree with you, this same AVOS, more than once saved lives in a real battle, but also no one canceled the Russian proverb - SAVING A CAREFUL GOD ....
      3. 0
        26 January 2019 12: 46
        sadness and more! in clear weather, beginners should be taught until they learn with their eyes closed, and only then ...
    2. 0
      25 January 2019 09: 29
      In that place of the strait where the planes fell, depths to several hundred meters, I think everything will be examined from the beginning and only then will they decide.
    3. +1
      25 January 2019 13: 37
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      Will the debris get out?

      With those currents and bottom soil in the strait, these fragments will be very difficult to find, but most likely they will not be found. There are planes that could not be found after the crash.
  2. +3
    25 January 2019 07: 32
    Yes, a tragedy ... Condolences for the dead.
  3. +12
    25 January 2019 07: 33
    ... "It was cloudy ..."
    4 ++ generation aircraft ...
    Earth down dead.
    1. 0
      25 January 2019 10: 00
      Quote: ochakow703
      ... "It was cloudy ..."
      4 ++ generation aircraft ...
      Earth down dead.

      Yes, at least 8 +++++++. In the clouds, in tight formation, the flight is purely visual.
      1. 0
        25 January 2019 10: 22
        It is not clear why in general aircraft of generation 4 ++ go in tight formation, and even in the clouds? Or are they doing WWII bombing in the lead?
        1. +3
          25 January 2019 12: 58
          I answer why go into service on our planes! If an aiming and navigation system doesn’t work for one, he can carry out the task by executing the commands of the leader .... They can even change places if the complex dies of the leader and the pilots are equivalent .... It’s just that the electronics don’t fail at the pyndos, the toggle switches wear out, the inscriptions are erased, the glass grows cloudier .... and their electronics do not fail, and their integration and duplication are multiple, it does not threaten us...
          1. +4
            25 January 2019 15: 54
            Quote: VO3A
            If the sighting and navigation system does not work for one, he can complete the task by executing the commands of the presenter.

            I agree completely drinks ... the BP APS method is called "work on the support". (or one with SVP 22-24, and the second is "not modified) soldier
            Quote: VO3A
            They can even change places if the complex dies in the lead and the pilots are equivalent ..

            Here at all ... good Especially when flying in formation on PMV (after all, at the heights of "criminally small), the means of the aircraft RTO practically do not work (except for ADNS) and" satellite navigation (this is now), and earlier ... "pocket Garmin" for happiness and .. what would the "guy from the next" red "entrance bully did not see ".
            So, if the PrNK or NK "failed" ... then regardless of the level of training of the follower ... the leader changes with the follower ... only then "stands" further away from him (just in case) soldier
      2. +6
        25 January 2019 10: 58
        I’m not a pilot ..
        But I don’t go into the fog while driving in "tight formation" ..
        1. +3
          25 January 2019 15: 56
          Quote: Roman070280
          But I don’t go into the fog while driving in a "tight formation".

          And no one flies into the fog in a "dense formation" ... for a maximum of 1 minute interval and in excess of 150-300 meters soldier
          1. +1
            28 January 2019 09: 43
            Well, in that case, they would not have collided ..
      3. +4
        25 January 2019 11: 29
        Quote: FORS
        In the clouds, in tight formation, the flight is purely visual.

        We do not fly in the clouds. The leader of the group was obliged to dissolve the system before entering the clouds ...
  4. +2
    25 January 2019 07: 34
    They went to heaven forever ...
  5. +3
    25 January 2019 07: 37
    [quoteSome time (navigator) was watching a slave plane. Then he turned his attention to the instruments, and then felt a blow.] [/ Quote] With all due respect to the dead pilots ... this is a CRIME !!! Themselves left, leaving children orphans, caused considerable damage to the Air Force and the country in which taxpayers primarily provide means of defense of the homeland. There are no words !!!
    1. -10
      25 January 2019 07: 43
      edelegor-Are you serious? ?? you blame the dead for their own death? ?? I have at the moment in your address a lot, a lot of words, but all obscene, so except minus, you will not ask for anything else from me! For the future, before people pour mud, think about whether it is worth it! !! fool
      1. +38
        25 January 2019 07: 48
        Sergey Vitalievich! Your right to put me cons. I did not pour slop on anyone, dear, read carefully. My opinion is my opinion, when led into a leader, this is the height of skill, this, dear, is not iron to blame. I gave the Air Force more than one year, so this is my opinion and only mine. And I knew about the cons.
        1. +1
          25 January 2019 10: 25
          Quote: edeligor
          it, dear, not iron is guilty. I gave the Air Force more than one year

          =========
          Well, if you, dear, have given the Air Force NOT ONE year, you should know that the final answer to the question: "WHO is to blame (the pilot or the hardware? AND WHAT happened? (Piloting error or technical malfunction)?" The Flight Accident Investigation Commission (and even then - NOT ALWAYS!). least find, raise and investigate flight recorders! And "sitting on the couch" - you can make ANY "CONCLUSIONS" - the price is bkdet - RELEVANT!!
          1. +4
            25 January 2019 11: 08
            I forgot .. that we have the "Commission" answered about the "Kursk" .. Man, or iron ??
            It seems that it’s not an ordinary case for itself .. that the whole country knew about (unlike these two planes) .. I re-read so many, but reviewed all kinds of films at the time about it ..
            But you’re a feat .. I still don’t know the answer ..
            Commission .. heh ..
            1. +2
              25 January 2019 11: 22
              Quote: Roman070280
              I forgot .. that our "Commission" answered about the "Kursk" ..

              Generally, the conclusions of the commissions are divided into information for the press and demanding couch Internet hamsters and information "in the part concerning". Nobody will give you full information. I have repeatedly compared what they told us about flight accidents with what was published in the media. And as for what the so-called "experts" publish, I generally keep quiet. hi
              1. +2
                25 January 2019 13: 40
                Well, here I am, besides .. that it’s not good for the previous author to shout about "let's wait for the Commission"
                The commission either will not say anything, or it will pour slop on the ears ..
          2. +5
            25 January 2019 11: 39
            Quote: venik
            Well, if you, dear, have given the Air Force NOT ONE year, you should know that the final answer to the question: "WHO is to blame (the pilot or the hardware? AND WHAT happened? (Piloting error or technical malfunction)?" Flight Accident Investigation Commission

            In the case when there is a collision in the air when flying in formation - 100% of the pilots' fault. Either the follower could not stay in place, or the leader did a sharp maneuver towards the follower. In this case, the blame lies with the leading group, which allowed entry into the clouds in a dense formation. There is nothing to sin on technology, no matter how sad it sounds ...
          3. The comment was deleted.
        2. +5
          25 January 2019 11: 32
          Quote: edeligor
          My opinion is my opinion, when led into a leader, this is the height of mastery,

          So in your commentary you reflect the guilt of the LEADER "..... the navigator, you see .. distracted from .." contemplation. " belay
          The catastrophe of Tkachenko and Melnik .. have forgotten: Or do you think the same ... that this is .. the same .. "the top of skill" ??? am
        3. +3
          25 January 2019 13: 06
          The scariest scourge our aviation is localism. Nothing changes, everything is as it was in 1988, or maybe worse ... It is time again to collect officers and restore officer meetings and our army ... The first attempt in 1988 failed due to 100% corrupt generals and the Union collapsed after the army ... What again to expect such a result?
          By the way, in 1991, officers of all units that appeared on the territory of Ukraine spoke in Vinnitsa at an officer meeting to maintain a unified Moscow submission !!! This was not noticed by any of the politicians, not to mention the hundreds of generals who were in this territory ... That's what we [b] [/ b] had in the generals' environment in the Union ...
          1. +2
            25 January 2019 13: 19
            Word SHIT flew out, and maybe another!
            1. The comment was deleted.
        4. 0
          26 January 2019 04: 41
          Quote: ANCIENT
          ......... I have at the moment in your address a lot, a lot of words, .......

          Looks like not only for you.
          Quote: edeligor
          I gave the Air Force more than one year,

          It is possible that as many as two. It does not matter. But just that they did not understand the specifics .. The authors of such correct speeches in the aviation regiment cease to be shaking hands. Good thing you're not in Khurb right now.
      2. +5
        25 January 2019 08: 16
        However, with a high degree of probability, it was a human factor.
      3. +2
        25 January 2019 09: 34
        About the dead or nothing, or the truth! In all incidents, the fault of the crew is primarily considered! And in parallel, all other possible causes, up to a UFO! And gradually the wine is concretized. In some cases, although the crew’s fault is obvious, the investigation is still ongoing. And the crew is to blame lately more and more! Especially in GA and BTA ........
      4. +3
        25 January 2019 11: 06
        Quote: ANCIENT
        Are you serious? ?? you blame the dead for their own death?

        I fully support! soldier
    2. +8
      25 January 2019 07: 47
      it is a crime
      Rather, it is the tragic mistake of the pilot of the slave Su-34. At 100 percent, this was not done intentionally. This is life, no one is immune from mistakes.
      1. +4
        25 January 2019 08: 39
        Quote: kjhg
        100 percent this was not done intentionally

        Sorry, but INTENTIVELY no one will do this
        1. +1
          25 January 2019 11: 39
          1972 AN2 pilot sent a car to his apartment in a 4-storey building, from recent German pilots sent a car to the mountains, there can be such a scandal, in 80 I don’t remember what year we had the Chernigov military school airfield near the rembase, the major turned off before the Air Force Day barrels, very low, and went near the tower to the ground, another same major, just before the holiday on L39, passed between my house and the Central District Hospital, was suspended from flying,
          Quote: widower
          Quote: kjhg
          100 percent this was not done intentionally

          Sorry, but INTENTIVELY no one will do this

    3. +6
      25 January 2019 08: 00
      You can’t call a person a criminal before a court decision and investigation, so let's not get excited!
    4. +6
      25 January 2019 08: 36
      Quote: edeligor
      Then he turned his attention to devices,

      Did the navigator control the car?
      it is a crime!!! -

      in what? that the navigator watched the devices ???
      Or did he also have to duplicate management?
    5. +7
      25 January 2019 11: 04
      Quote: edeligor
      With all due respect to the dead pilots ... this is a CRIME !!!

      Let me disagree with you, because only the Slave’s duties indicate that HE (slave) must constantly maintain his place in the ranks and .. CONTINUOUSLY monitor the leader.
      And the LEADER is obliged to LEAD and CONTROL the position of the leaders, as well as strictly maintain the established flight mode, not to make, without warning, changes in the parameters of the flight mode in formation and not to make evolutionary maneuvers, etc. etc.
      And in your opinion it turns out that even on the take-off the navigator must turn his head right and back and ... continuously and constantly monitor the leader? So excuse me ..... Nonsense soldier
      1. +1
        25 January 2019 11: 23
        Nice to read Professional. It’s to blame, but I notice for myself that at first I’ll plus, and then I read until I’ve made a mistake with the pluses in your account.
  6. -9
    25 January 2019 07: 47
    Information flows like a leaky bucket.
  7. 0
    25 January 2019 08: 13
    Most likely they were already tangled in slings in water, in a wave. Therefore, they died.
    1. +5
      25 January 2019 08: 41
      Quote: Aleks69
      Most likely they were already tangled in slings in water, in a wave.

      and if the water is no longer alive? because we don’t yet know the conclusions of the examination
  8. The comment was deleted.
    1. +4
      25 January 2019 08: 45
      Quote from rudolf
      The preconditions for the collision were originally laid in the design of the aircraft

      there it was directly laid that "the slave literally sits on the master's wing" ?????
      and if the follower moves away to a safe distance?
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +2
          25 January 2019 08: 58
          Quote from rudolf
          So, taking into account the design of the aircraft, the rules of flight in a group (pair, link) must be changed. The commander does not own the situation on the right side.

          The first planes went in 2006, in operation since 2013. There was no time for someone to think about this? Do we only have blood? hi
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +3
              25 January 2019 09: 20
              Quote from rudolf
              It's just that many at the top like to splurge.

              so it was, is and will be! And so in everything and so everywhere. In budget organizations the same thing. And that's bad.
              1. 0
                27 January 2019 18: 18
                But in non-budget offices - otherwise? Talk weird. Yes, any commerce for the sacred keeps pouting a potential buyer, consumer of its goods ...
                As the saying goes - "follow the ad" ... and with the hands of ... thimblers ...
            2. +4
              25 January 2019 11: 56
              Quote from rudolf
              but he twists aerobatics

              Difficult, Rudolph ... difficult aerobatics soldier
              And then in the combat regiments ... with restrictions.
              About "kicking the tail of a fighter" .... these are "our airmen from the media" wassat
              Quote from rudolf
              Corresponding should be the rules of flight as part of the group. This is not a Su-27/30/35.

              [b] Order ..... for all elements of the flight system :
              1. TAKEOFF IN A PAIR.
              2. LANDSCAPE AND SURVEILLANCE IN BATTLE ORDER.
              3. PILOTS IN COUPLES:
              - U-turns and turns in pairs.
              - DIPING IN COUPLES.
              - SLIDE IN COUPLES.
              - BATTLE TURNOVER IN COUPLES.
              - SPIRAL IN PAIR.
              4. FEATURES OF GROUP FLIGHTS AT SMALL AND EXTREMELY SMALL ALTITUDES.
              5. FLYING COUPLES IN CLOSED STRUCTURE.
              6. EXIT TO THE AERODROM AND DISSEMINATION OF THE LANDING.
              7. APPOINTING AND LANDING A PAIR.
              Well and in accordance with SAFETY MEASURES. soldier
          2. +2
            25 January 2019 10: 21
            People often say that safety rules are written in blood.
          3. +2
            25 January 2019 11: 43
            Quote: Silvestr
            There was no time for someone to think about this? Do we only have blood?

            They thought about "this" at the time of the "inception" of aviation soldier
            No need to reinvent the wheel soldier
        2. +4
          25 January 2019 09: 09
          Quote from rudolf
          So, taking into account the design of the aircraft, the rules of flight in the group must be changed

          do you have a group flight rules? for this aircraft?
          please quote
          and I’ll tell you one rule, SAFE distance
        3. +4
          25 January 2019 11: 42
          Quote from rudolf
          So, taking into account the design of the aircraft, the rules of flight in the group (pair, link) must be changed

          Rudolph .., we build flight rules for all ONE ... here are just the intervals and distances for different types of aircraft .. different soldier
          Quote from rudolf
          The commander does not own the situation on the right side.

          Only on the report of the navigator ... "that the wingman is standing normally" ... or "close" soldier
          On the Tu-22M it is exactly the same, but on the Tu-22, alas ... there only you sometimes twist your "head" ... therefore, the recommendation to the follower, what would stand with a "sight angle" of 20-30 degrees wink
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            1. +4
              25 January 2019 12: 25
              Quote from rudolf
              and the construction, when the slave is to the left of the leader, and not to the right, is it possible?

              At parades and "window dressing" ... in long aviation, too, when a detachment is flying.
              Although for all Aircraft in the BP - Klin, Rhombus, Peleng, Front, a "left extreme" slave is provided.
              But in the combat units there are mainly pairs or if the link is the right bearing (with a step to the right), and from them Columns will already be formed, which can then (when fulfilling certain knowledge bases) go to FRONT soldier
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                1. +3
                  25 January 2019 15: 28
                  Quote from rudolf
                  Will the leader's commander himself "graze" the wingman without looking back at the navigator?

                  If the follower is on the left, then the commander can only look at him for a moment, since his whole main task is to STRICTLY observe the flight mode in formation and at the same time leaving an "excess" in speed and altitude for the follower to maneuver ... well, and warn him about changes flight mode in advance and give commands for execution .... everything else is on the "conscience" and in the "hands" of the wingman .. therefore all "export" flights begin at large intervals and distances ... with their gradual decrease.
            2. +4
              25 January 2019 13: 10
              Rudolph hi in the formation, when the follower from the right-back, it makes sense that the follower commander sees the leader perfectly. It is his responsibility to maintain distance and interval. Judging by the description of the incident, the slave "caught up" with the leader. By analogy with motor transport, the rear is almost always guilty of an accident. But the incredible happens, so do not take my vision of the situation as an assessment. Just an opinion, IMHO.
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                1. +3
                  25 January 2019 14: 03
                  Then it’s not clear. It is better to break the distance, go through the clouds safely and get in the lead, than take the risk. In the end, they also have an airborne radar, isn’t it possible to see the leader there? Even if the navigator of the leader and observes the actions of the follower, this is not constant. He has direct duties on his board.
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                      1. +3
                        25 January 2019 14: 43
                        I agree with you.
                        Where not to throw, everywhere a wedge. So they choose the lesser of two evils.

                        That's what I wanted to ask, but they don’t have a passive surveillance radar or doesn’t exist at all?
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                      3. +3
                        25 January 2019 15: 04
                        I will do so. There is someone to turn to. I mean, by analogy with the GAS on the submarine and NK., But did not take into account that the environment is different. You just don’t listen to the hydrophone, and the search beam of the radar is detected. It seems that he didn’t mix anything up?
                      4. +3
                        25 January 2019 15: 18
                        Quote from rudolf
                        The slave sits on the wing of the leader, who sees him from the words of the navigators

                        That's right ..... nothing else ... the truth is the navigator must concretize his report "how and where" the follower is "standing.
                        And then in the article the navigator says, he looked at the wingman on the right ... and how on the right, at what angle (angle), at what degradation (if on the NE and BW flight), if on the WWW then with an excess, and at what distance.
                        And here on the right .. and here .. hit .... probably (again, the error is stable for "newbies" students flying in dense formation) immediately grab the control stick and try to turn it away, but do not understand that, according to the laws of aerodynamics, if one control stick " move ", then the plane on the contrary approaches the leader, and if it is also below, then .. the probability of" butting "is very high.
                        The first thing the follower should do is to reduce the speed and decrease the speed (i.e. increase the distance), i.e. the hand must always "lie" on the throttle soldier
                    2. +3
                      25 January 2019 15: 11
                      Quote from rudolf
                      But there is a possibility that when leaving the cloud, the follower will no longer find the leader.

                      If the follower is acting in strict accordance with the "Law" (that is, he reduced the speed by 30 km, turned to the right by 15 degrees (the follower is on the right), gained + 150m altitude at P = 760, passed 1 minute and took the previous course, then the leader will "walk" in front of the left, at a distance of 500-700 meters and 150 below soldier
                      I wrote about the "Vault-meeting" above, in addition to the onboard ANOs, there are also combat lights (but not on all types recourse ) although now they are trying all the machines still in factories when assembling or repairing to be completed.
                  2. +3
                    25 January 2019 15: 04
                    Quote: Leopold
                    In the end, they also have an airborne radar, isn’t it possible to see the leader there?

                    Only in the MMM review mode and in the mm range ... then and even then if they stand "tightly" then everyone will be "in the high-altitude five" (that is, in the dead zone).
                    Well, when on a 2-minute interval, then in the "ancient" PNA you can see the entire BP (a convoy of single aircraft), and if a convoy of pairs, then the distance and interval should be at least 150x100. But this is provided that everyone goes strictly in GPU mode. soldier
                    And so the attachment is only visually ... if at night, and even there is cloudiness and the MIS and the leader's front lights are not visible, then the RSBN is transferred to the "Vault-Meeting Mode" and the direction to the leading aircraft appears at the checkpoint. and the Range was him.
                    On the Tu-22M, the operator has a "Krypton" ... it can also be used to observe the attachment of the leader, but again ... up to the range ... bully
                    1. +2
                      25 January 2019 15: 11
                      Thanks, namesake hi I still didn’t understand the specifics, but I caught the essence. The included radar increases the likelihood of detection by the enemy and, as a result, the failure of the task. Like so? recourse
                      1. +3
                        25 January 2019 15: 23
                        Quote: Leopold
                        The included radar increases the likelihood of detection by the enemy and, as a result, the failure of the task.

                        This is when conducting a database with a "probable enemy" ... when with the "Papuans there ... on the drum."
                        And in peacetime, the slave can only use the "locator" at the "attachment" and then .. only on the Su-24 and 34, on the Tu-22, Tu-22M and Tu-16 ... not according to the TTD radar. ( I don’t know about Tu-160 and Tu-95MS .., but probably just the same) soldier
                      2. +2
                        25 January 2019 15: 27
                        So in the article we are talking about the Su-34. So you could use a locator?
                      3. +3
                        25 January 2019 15: 29
                        Quote: Leopold
                        So you could use a locator?

                        Namesake, I wrote to you .. only .. "on the attachment" ... already in the ranks ... no soldier
                      4. +3
                        25 January 2019 19: 18
                        "Keep build!" - no? Was it possible? Well, it wouldn't have happened what happened. Move back and then get in line.
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                      6. +3
                        25 January 2019 19: 22
                        The thing is that pilots will not work. I didn’t mention Wednesday for nothing. It works in water, but not in air. Turning on the locator - flare. They have a different way.
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                      8. +4
                        25 January 2019 19: 54
                        Well, this is EW if Khibiny. There is no such possibility as acoustics for pilots. Frequency interference can create. But this is not that acoustics. Even so - light up.
                        P.S. I have another question - I read Eduard Ovechkin's "Sharks from Steel" and our NikWik is also Eduard, who knows Lyra and Vodovoz not by hearsay. Maybe he is?
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                      10. +3
                        25 January 2019 20: 31
                        But you have much more chances to find out. Unless, of course, interesting.
                        It’s so off scale for me, but the probability tends to zero, which will answer.
    2. 0
      25 January 2019 08: 48
      The only sensible comment ..
    3. +3
      25 January 2019 11: 37
      Quote from rudolf
      Cloud cover. So the follower literally sits on the wing of the leader.

      If the cloud cover is continuous or with breaks, then ... the leader had to "open" the formation, if only the crew levels were allowed to fly in formation in the clouds and this was provided for by the PZ, but logically ... the leader had to increase the interval and distance himself to the presenter soldier
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        1. +3
          25 January 2019 11: 59
          Quote from rudolf
          But from the fact that I learned from conversations with your colleagues, in conditions of poor visibility, cloudiness, this rule is constantly violated. In order not to lose the leader, the follower literally sits on his wing.

          What is true, then true .... if intermittent and not dense, then ..... practically .. "wing to wing", but for a short time ..... just get tired (I'm talking about a follower)
  9. -1
    25 January 2019 09: 25
    Are any versions considered? For example, could planes be shot down? I understand it sounds like nonsense. But I somehow hardly believe in weather conditions. Also in the slings to get confused. One is superimposed on the other.
  10. 0
    25 January 2019 09: 34
    How old are they all interested in, what is the raid?
    1. 0
      25 January 2019 11: 58
      One QC - Major, Deputy .com
      Second QC - Major, Comasque
      In fact, the crew was experienced. At least one of them was expired. Flyers will understand.
  11. -2
    25 January 2019 09: 45
    Quote: Finches
    Until the end of the investigation, it is not correct to say so, but often there is a craving for recklessness, and this is in the blood, sometimes we Russians do not, plus some kind of historical belief in "maybe" breaks through at the most inopportune moment, through the strictest prohibitions, instructions and sometimes sanity ... Navigator health. Condolences to the families of the victims!



    Damn, and turn on your head? With a close movement of bodies in the air flow, they are attracted to each other, the Bernoulli effect is called. Here is one of the pilots and did not take into account ...
  12. 0
    25 January 2019 10: 02
    This is a VERY important article. Watched the slave, felt the blow. Everything is clear, the plane crashed because it was hit.

    Speaking about the parachute dome, the article doesn’t even say that the 4 th pilot was not found, who was clearly being searched for, in which crew did he enter? Maybe one just did not eject, and then there is nothing to look for, you need to lift the plane, or at least the deceased, well, orange ... a black box at the same time.
    1. +2
      25 January 2019 10: 37
      He simply could not help but leave the plane. Ejection occurs automatically if one of the pilots pulls a lever. First, the navigator takes off, and after half a second the commander’s chair is shot back.
      1. +2
        25 January 2019 16: 12
        Quote: kjhg
        He simply could not help but leave the plane.

        They have separate lights, so the preparation "system" seemed to work, but the "cover" did not go away and .... and you "screwed up" and could not reset manually ... everything ... you stay with the plane.
    2. +2
      25 January 2019 12: 00
      The fourth raft was found on the water, which means it was catapulted ...
    3. 0
      27 January 2019 18: 44
      Quote: EvilLion
      Maybe one just didn’t catapult, and then there’s nothing to look for him, you need to raise the plane, or at least the dead, well, orange ... the black box at the same time.

      According to the media, one empty life raft was found ... The rescued navigator and the two dead were on their rafts ...
  13. +1
    25 January 2019 10: 23
    During his service he survived four accidents. This is bad. All pilots are alive, that's good. But even better, there was no internet.
  14. 0
    25 January 2019 10: 28
    In Russia, forever everything is not like people:
    snow in winter, rain in summer, gas in houses, clouds in the sky ....
    Therefore, accidents on roads and heating mains, breakthroughs of dams and flooding of cities, explosions in houses, collisions in the sky ....
    I remembered the death of Russian knights in Vietnam ....
    1. -1
      25 January 2019 18: 48
      With Vietnam, it’s more clear, the host brought up the mountain, the reason is the failure to work out the route .... But what about the latest new Adler Tu-154. The catastrophe is significant, the entire ensemble of Alexander died and on New Year's Eve, it seems like a planned diversion .. but the reasons and conclusions have not yet been announced ...
    2. 0
      27 January 2019 18: 49
      Quote: prior
      In Russia, forever everything is not like people:
      snow in winter, rain in summer, gas in houses, clouds in the sky ....
      Therefore, accidents on roads and heating mains, breakthroughs of dams and flooding of cities, explosions in houses, collisions in the sky ....
      I remembered the death of Russian knights in Vietnam ....

      Oh, come on, there’s enough mess everywhere ...
      It's just that in Russia there is traditionally more of it (a mess) ... The country is big, there is no time to follow everything ... and there is nobody ...
  15. 0
    25 January 2019 10: 51
    Quote: Dzafdet
    Quote: Finches
    Until the end of the investigation, it is not correct to say so, but often there is a craving for recklessness, and this is in the blood, sometimes we Russians do not, plus some kind of historical belief in "maybe" breaks through at the most inopportune moment, through the strictest prohibitions, instructions and sometimes sanity ... Navigator health. Condolences to the families of the victims!



    Damn, and turn on your head? With a close movement of bodies in the air flow, they are attracted to each other, the Bernoulli effect is called. Here is one of the pilots and did not take into account ...


    Well, everything, the investigation can not be carried out. Professionals at HE and Bernoulli heard about the law, and applied it to two bodies moving in the air stream at the same speed. And they remembered the inherent Russian folly, and the design features of the aircraft were taken into account (although there are side-view mirrors on the lantern to the left and right) And the criminals, since they took the bosses guilty, which steals, And of course the pilots themselves are criminals:
    Quote: edeligor
    [quoteSome time (navigator) was watching a slave plane. Then he turned his attention to the appliances, and then felt a blow.]
    With all due respect to the dead pilots ... this is a CRIME !!! Themselves left, leaving children orphans, caused considerable damage to the Air Force and the country in which taxpayers primarily provide means of defense of the homeland. There are no words !!! [/ quote]

    Indeed, NO WORDS. And which are, all obscene.
  16. 0
    25 January 2019 12: 29
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.alt.kp.ru/daily/26932/3982317/
  17. +1
    25 January 2019 12: 56
    I am not an aviator, but I am very sorry for the dead pilots and of course it is clear that there are reasons that led to this disaster. I hope that an impartial investigation will be carried out and conclusions made to increase the level of flight training of crews and flight control in the Russian Aerospace Forces. Moreover, the Tu-22M3 catastrophe seems from the same series, why the flight manager did not send them to the second round, can someone explain to me?
    1. +2
      25 January 2019 13: 37
      Sent. The other person's decision was to plant. Self-confidence in aviation is a disastrous thing.
  18. 0
    26 January 2019 19: 38
    I do not want to pose as an expert, but I ask you to explain: if there is no visual contact between the sides going in formation (cloudiness), is it worth it:
    1. Enable the capabilities of the radar
    2. Maximize the distance?
    And as I understand it, cloud cover, the upper edge of which extends above the ceiling of the SU-34, is nonsense. That is, they flew into the clouds if not specially (maybe they worked out piloting with instruments), then it was not forced. We are waiting for the results of the investigation, but so far it turns out that minus two modern aircraft and three flyers out of the blue ... It's a shame.
  19. 0
    26 January 2019 22: 32
    Quote: VO3A
    If one does not work sighting and navigation system

    Oh, ma! Well, I'm not an expert in this ... but I can ask a question: is it impossible to check this complex in advance? Before departure? Before? And how much more might not work on a combat mission, for example?
    In life, of course, everything happens ... but in order to give a similar training manual to pilots like this ... you have to be a "hero" (at someone else's expense) .. or just an obdiot. IMHO
    I propose a new method of dealing with an engine stalled in flight:
    "A navigator of a functioning aircraft who is free from his duties ... gets out of the cockpit, throws a rope hook to a stalled comrade and pulls a faulty aircraft in tow. The exercise is worked out in pairs ... but you can take other aircraft in tow ... three or four ... "
    And glory to the heroes of the chiefs is provided!
    1. 0
      27 January 2019 19: 00
      Quote: kunstkammer
      Oh, ma! Well, I'm not an expert in this ... but I can ask a question: is it impossible to check this complex in advance? Before departure? Before? And how much more might not work on a combat mission, for example?


      It was about imitating the fulfillment of tasks in combat conditions ... in which some systems may fail ... including weapon control ... that, given the enemy’s use of air defense systems, firepower, is by no means something of a fantasy. .. there are plenty of examples on Afghanistan and Georgia ...
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    1. -1
      27 January 2019 19: 01
      Quote: Max20
      If only there was no war ...


      ... Svidomity pulled up ...?
  21. 0
    27 January 2019 04: 46
    We have a pathological dislike for instructions in our blood, we constantly forget that all instructions are written in "human blood" !!! Any emergency investigation begins - "in violation of instructions ......".
    1. 0
      27 January 2019 19: 05
      Quote: tolmachiev51
      We have a pathological dislike for instructions in our blood, we constantly forget that all instructions are written in "human blood" !!! Any emergency investigation begins - "in violation of instructions ......".


      So in this disaster, and in the next after it - with the Tu-22 - the same thing - nothing new ... violation of the NPP ... at least about equipment failures - not a word was said by anyone ...