Was it possible to reform the Soviet industry?

364
I would like to speak about the "lost plants". From this point of view, look at the ex-USSR. After all, the USSR, after all, was above all an industrial superpower. Not commercial, not agricultural, but industrial. It is logical to look at the basis of his, so to speak, power, that is, on that very industry. And above all to the pride of the USSR - industrial giants. There were a lot of them, and each of them was a kind of “state within a state.” Many of them have disappeared in the flame of reform, but there are some that have survived.





And this is where serious questions arise (based on even a superficial analysis of their activities). They work today, but as far as profitability and profitability are concerned, then, as they say, everything is not so simple. More specifically, they constantly work in the negative. (I live in the Urals and am familiar with some of these giants.) That is, it is clear that in a few years it was difficult to restructure their work on market rails. And even ten years is not so easy.

But time passes, life does not stand still, the country is developing, and they ... everything is there. For some reason, these giants (but not only them) are characterized by low wages of workers and engineers, outdated equipment and permanent debts to suppliers. The enterprise is strategic, the enterprise performs an important social function, the enterprise is in dire need of state support ... Well, and how many times have we heard all this?

State support was provided, for some time it was possible to remove the problems, then they again crawled to the surface. And again beautiful words about the social role of the enterprise, about its rich history etc. And so on without end. By cycle. And then, you know, one most unpleasant question arises: what was the real effectiveness of the Soviet industrial system? In the sense of not "coal to the mountain" or "plan for the shaft / shaft according to the plan," but so to speak, what was the financial return from it? Stealing, say a lot? Well, compared to the 90-mi is not so much. Modestly stolen.

The role of the nesuns in the collapse of socialism is clearly exaggerated. Yes, and the authorities behaved quite modestly compared with the subsequent period. Then forgive where was everything going? . The question is not idle. Already in 80's (in 80, Karl!), Co-citizens faced a rather strange paradox: the country is de facto a superpower and controls almost half of the planet, there is no war for a long time, in every city and town working plants. But there is no happiness in life and goods on the shelves.

Goods, in the sense of the most elementary and primitive, no longer exist. In 80, everything was in short supply. And somehow this raises serious doubts about the effectiveness of the very Soviet industrial super-system. Of course, I am very sorry, but in the same US cheap Fords and household appliances (!) Parts of the middle class became available even before the First World War. Europe, the world’s two, was literally plowed up, but by the 60 years, and there, the car became quite accessible to almost everyone.

What did we have for 80 years? By car availability?

Here they love to curse thievish and stupid partocrats, I somehow do not quite agree with that. The quality of the Soviet government (taking into account the income of the managing class!) Was very good. But there was no happiness in life, but there were endless queues. By the end of 80's, the situation had already acquired a frankly idiotic character: the factories were still working "to the fullest" and overfulfilled, but in stores it was just a rolling ball.

Exactly so, and nothing else. Here workers begin to kick workers: allegedly they were the ones who plundered everything. Rather, they took it away at officially fixed prices. The “commercial” activity of trade was precisely the result, not the cause. Exactly. Everything is exactly the opposite. Here they begin to curse "international assistance." Yes, she had a place, helped. And mostly for free. However, the fact of the presence of the Soviet bloc had obvious advantages, including economic ones. Yes, and in the CMEA countries, too, the plants worked. It was, it was.

You know, it is precisely by looking at the modern “former Soviet flagships” who have remained afloat, a nasty suspicion about the true economic efficiency of the Soviet industrial system creeps in. That is, I am not talking about the “turnover” (it was just monstrous!) But about the financial return it gave, this is the industry. It seems to me that the tragedy of the Soviet leaders was precisely that they managed a very large, very complex system with a very small “surplus product”. And the quality of management was just good enough, and these “guys” not only pushed speeches from the stands, but also worked.

Just even today, after almost 30 anniversary of economic reforms, these same former giants are very poorly adapted to the market environment. No, you understand, they cannot adapt, they need all the help they need and they do not pay the bills. What, interestingly, did the “economy” look like, consisting of such “giants” (“middle peasants”)? What could she earn? An interesting "experiment" in this area was conducted after the collapse of the USSR, A.G. Lukashenko. He 25 years continued to invest in the Soviet giants. Return, he did not wait.

Comrades, twenty-five years more! I agree, the experiment is not quite "clean", but it had a place to be. What has grown, has grown. And, for example, “Gomselmash” or “Motovelo” are just “legends” of the Belarusian economy. "Amkador", "MAZ" ... He honestly tried to save them and even develop. Did not work out. Again, if someone does not know, then the 90's Chinese industrialization was quite specific: it was built NewIt is new factories in southeastern China. And many old enterprises built during the time of Comrade Mao turned out to be simply unnecessary (in particular, northeast China). In the new economy, they refused to fit.

That is, the market was sort of for them, and money ... but not destiny. No, someone fit in, and someone not so, although the CCP worked with all its might. That is, the true commercial value of all these "giants of the industry" is rather doubtful. It’s just that when creating them, the question wasn’t so posed and wasn’t considered at such an angle: the task was to produce maximum output as quickly as possible. As part of the planned economy, everything could be “profitable”, even “counter transport” of similar goods.

Just an illusion is taking place to be so obsessive: if a giant industrial flywheel rotates, then the return from it should be gigantic. Not a fact, not a fact. And it seems that in 70-e / 80-e years the best minds of the Soviet leadership fought over this “mystery of the sphinx”: everything works, but there are problems with money and there are no goods on the shelves. Once again: do not need about the theft and poverty of the Soviet system. Just the same theft was not so much and the system was quite a good one.

Profit, of course, can not be the only criterion in organizing the work of the enterprise, but without it, nowhere. For some reason, in recent decades, the word “profit” has become perceived as some kind of “low-labor” super-profits that are spent for cynical purposes. But after all, if we argue in a simple way, then the profit is something that we can take from the enterprise without disrupting its activities. That is, the profit is needed not to “over-enrich”, but simply by the fact of the economic activity of the society — someone has to earn money for it.

So, there are serious doubts that the Soviet industrial system “earned well”. The reason is simple: the constant shortage of everything and everything in peacetime within the framework of the USSR. That is, if it was still possible to employ everyone and give them pay, then for some reason it was unrealistic to fill these (very small!) Paychecks with real goods. That is, a logical version arises that the point was not so much in the partycrats and post-sales, as in the lowest profitability of the Soviet economy. That is, everyone worked, but the rich life did not work. Paradox.

For some reason, the giant industrial machine of the Soviet industry could not provide the population even with a basic set of the same manufactured goods (we silently keep silent about products, the topic is separate). But why? By the way, an ingenious “solution” to this problem was found just at large industrial enterprises: “enter” the household expenses of workers into the cost of products (since everything works and products are needed by the country!) - their houses of culture, rest houses, their own housing, their greenhouses and pig farms, their production of consumer goods.

Lord, all this nonsense ... The giant plant was turning into a small state. And in fact, the supply of real benefits to a person from the street and a large defense plant worker could be very different. And the apartment could be obtained quickly, and it was possible to stand in line all my life. But, let us ask ourselves, what was the cost of production of such an “enterprise”? Taking into account all the "social costs"? Very bad suspicions creep in ... And by the profitability / profitability of his work, too, which is typical.

That is, de facto in a poor, scarce economy, a large plant further worsened the situation for all as a whole, providing social benefits to its employees. Today we are well aware that a giant business (shopping even!) Can bring great losses. Today it is not a secret to anyone that turnover is one thing, but profit is another.

Having dived into the market, the giants' plants first of all threw off all the "social programs", loading and overloading local budgets, but they did not become profitable from this (for the most part!). And even the rent of "extra space" helped the case a little. No, if everyone were “hovering” at once, then there’s an end to this fairy tale, but quite a few large Soviet enterprises continued to work and continued to generate losses. At the same time, without already bearing the social burden in the form of various social and cultural facilities and paying workers a paltry salary. And generating endless debts.

In Belarus, they were actually allowed not to pay these debts. As a matter of fact, the Soviet giants turned out to be the “white elephants” that killed the Belarusian economy. Well, as argued, looking at them, the Belarusian leadership: well, there can not be such a large object not to bring profit! And for years, 25 was poured into them by state subsidies, created preferential conditions and allowed not to pay debts to merchants. "Constellation of black holes" happened. They sucked the Belarusian economy to the bottom, after which they quietly “huddled”.

It is difficult to believe this to an untrained person, but this can be quite possible: the huge system works, works as hard as possible, works ... in the negative. And to change something is impossible. Any attempts to “reform” first cause small fluctuations, and then the system returns to its original stable state. Indirectly, one can guess the “economic reserve of buoyancy” of the USSR by talking about “terrible expenses for the Olympics-1980”. Well ... as if the USSR was a superpower. And the Olympics were held and just very different very average states like Canada or Italy. Something somehow strange statement sounds.

Suspicions causes. Quite a "passing thing." From the same series, the Afghan war and the costs are already on it ... which allegedly formed an "overwhelming burden." Again, the war was not so very big and it was not going near Omsk. And the same Russian Empire waged similar wars all the time, without claiming the loud title of the "industrial superpower". The Afghan war is, of course, a big expense, but, again, looking for whom ...

The USSR is an industrial superpower with a population of millions of people in 280 ... And there was a place for the CMEA, and the Warsaw bloc. And if such a limited war right next to the border caused such great economic problems, serious doubts arise about the real money earned by the Soviet industry. How stable was the Soviet economy in general (what was its supply of "buoyancy")? Somehow against the background of all these "deficiencies" with relatively small paychecks, it is suspicious that the system worked "by itself". That is, the flywheels and gears, of course, were spinning, but it was not so easy to pick up and spend something from there.

And then they begin to "kick" the bloated military budget. It is, of course, so. Nevertheless, there were many large defense expenditures. In itself, this still does not mean anything. Yes, and the issue of defense nobody took off the agenda, that is, in a kind, good way, the army had to be reduced, as was the “defense industry”, but not military spending as a whole, they couldn’t be hard pressed (it would be better to finance smaller number). Such a paradox: a good modern army is expensive. One gets the impression that the “leaders of industrialization” of the Soviet leaders turned out to be exactly halfway: they managed to create a powerful, working industry, but they didn’t make it profitable. As a result, Soviet citizens of the late USSR (and even foreigners) had a “cognitive dissonance”: a super-powerful industrial economy and a rather modest, if not poor, life.

Good it could not end. The idea of ​​the article is, of course, not that the economy of a major power should be based solely on kiosks selling shavarma and flower kiosks, as well as travel agencies, but the largest and most interesting company with the most demanded products should “work in plus”. And, quite logically, the larger the enterprise, the more this plus should be. Otherwise, everything is sad (very sad). I understand that the idea that for a good, rich life it is necessary to earn money for it is more than trivial, but for some reason it is often completely ignored.

It is clear that there are spheres of human activity where money is only spent (science, culture, medicine, education, etc.) But production is the very area where money should not be wasted, but ... earn money, someone has to earn them in the end? This is the problem we still have. Like 30 years ago. How to work in the factories still turns out, but seriously earn - not very. And this is despite the fact that, as has already been said, they have thrown off all the “social programs” long ago.

They work either in zero or in minus, to understand it is quite simple: the old buildings that nobody repaired 40 for years, the old equipment, the filthy workers ... but still “hope and count” on them. In vain. Absolutely nothing. But recently, it was precisely of them that a large part of the then Soviet economy consisted. And many factories, in fact, were some kind of “magic pumpkin”, that is, it was possible to “invest” in them endlessly, but it was impossible to pick something up. Then it was all “hid” by the “common pot” of the planned economy, within which they could well “flourish”, but many of the “flagships” and “giants” left to themselves were cast ashore. Or erect a truly miserable existence.

Once again: small wages and a complete shortage of everything and everything is not a minor nuisance against the background of universal splendor, but a sign of the serious problems of building an economic system. Social benefits, speak? But just then they all had very various. Access to them. Just someone (the most cunning) inscribed the cost of them in the production cycle itself. Someone just didn’t do it very well (there was simply nowhere to write them!). In any case, these same “benefits” were not enough for everyone and not always. The cunning Soviet system of “distribution”, queuing for everything and coupons is explained by just this. After all, the needs of a Soviet person were quite primitive: just shoes, just clothes, just furniture, just cheese, just sausage. No frills. Having in the store one sort of sausage and one sort of cheese, a Soviet person would be happy. But did not grow together, not "fartanulo."

And it's not about the storekeepers and party organizers, the problem lay deeper. That is, roughly speaking, from the point of view of the author, the Soviet system would be just perfect ... if it would still make money. But just with this there were fundamental problems that could not be resolved. And always “pushing” in endless lines for a completely “final” sausage (Tanya, don't break through the sausage anymore!) Or for “imported shoes” was not as interesting as it might seem today.

That is, we must pay tribute to the Soviet leaders 70-x / 80-x: they are actively working on the problem. But they could not solve it. Doesn't it seem very suspicious for the industrial superpower that such a global interest in some kind of “petrodollars”? Well, there are / no them ... after the United States, the USSR at that time is the largest manufacturer of various industrial products. We are not Saudi Arabia, after all? And not the Arab Emirates.

But the paradox was precisely this: the oil turned out to be just the same “manna from heaven,” just like gas. Sell ​​raw materials and buy the cherished consumer goods. And the industrial giants are buzzing day and night ... the picture is truly surreal ... That is, on the whole, it can be said that not everything was so simple, so unequivocally with the very "lost" Soviet economy. And it seems that by the end of 80's it really “went under the water”, that is, the factories were still working, but any goods from the sale disappeared completely and irrevocably.

364 comments
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  1. +41
    30 October 2018 05: 38
    The author is a writer and not a reader.
    Comparing round with soft. Gives preference to sweet ....
    Discussion of the Soviet economy. Its tasks. Comes to capitalist conclusions ...
    1. +40
      30 October 2018 05: 54
      Quote: apro
      Discussion of the Soviet economy. Its tasks. Comes to capitalist conclusions.

      I never saw the conclusions. Water is poured into the sea. The article is endless and about nothing. I thought it was Edward Radzinsky writing. Many words, but no thoughts.
      1. -22
        30 October 2018 06: 16
        The idea is on the surface and it is obvious, the Union, with all the achievements, was doomed precisely for economic reasons. History has proved this, the USSR lived a bright but scanty life, died "in infancy." Why? It's just that enterprises in full state ownership are not competitive (maybe there are one or two exceptions in the world).
        1. +6
          30 October 2018 06: 43
          . Why? It is just that enterprises in full state ownership are noncompetitive (maybe there are one or two exceptions in the world).


          Not a fact.
          There is a mass of African / Asian / Latin American countries with private property as the backbone of the economy and with a dead economy.
          1. -5
            30 October 2018 06: 49
            Well, what do you distort, in Africa there are other reasons, anarchy rules there ...
            1. +12
              30 October 2018 07: 05
              Well, what do you distort, in Africa there are other reasons, anarchy rules there ...


              I am very sorry, but practically the whole Third World - from Thailand to Honduras ...

              There's a pancake continuous private traders and continuous "ATAS" in the economy (including Africa)
              that is, the market - it is never a panacea.
              1. +16
                30 October 2018 09: 21
                that is, the market - it is never a panacea.

                Yes, the invisible hand of the market is located in Washington !!! And the center-periphery system is working without failures for now, and whoever is stopping it will come to you to establish democracy! That's all the reasons! A colonial system was built in the world, the Soviet Union interfered with it, all the forces to destroy it were thrown, as a result, a donkey with a bag of gold took the USSR (exaggerated of course).
                1. 0
                  2 November 2018 20: 21
                  You are right, and representatives of this "Washington hand" Chubais and Gadars, as A. Chubais put it, - to sell and pay extra, to give a huge enterprise with thousands of workers to anyone - the main thing is to destroy the Soviet system. So they destroyed EVERYTHING in the country, but the Chubais and the company were not going to create anything ... And we have the consequences - the destroyed economy of the huge state ... The culprit, A. Chubais, continues to steal billions from the state budget, which means that systemic management from the United States continues ... As a conclusion, the Russian Federation is today a colony of diners in the 3rd Cold World War ...
              2. 0
                30 October 2018 10: 03
                Not a panacea, no.
                But he exists. And countries exist, albeit in different ways.
                But the USSR - no.
              3. -6
                30 October 2018 12: 44
                Quote: Olezhek
                I kaneshno greatly apologize, but almost the entire Third World - from Thailand to Honduras ..

                It seems to me worth comparing with the most successful countries. It is necessary to take the economies of the USA, Germany, France, Japan, etc., and compare with them. Is not it so?
                1. +4
                  30 October 2018 12: 56
                  It seems to me worth comparing with the most successful countries. It is necessary to take the economies of the USA, Germany, France, Japan


                  So successful or market ones?
                  Do you agree that this not synonyms?
                  1. -5
                    30 October 2018 13: 53
                    Quote: Olezhek
                    Do you agree that these are not synonyms?

                    There are some more synonyms. Take 5ku of countries by GDP and write which one is not market.
                    1. +6
                      30 October 2018 14: 28
                      Japan’s economy is definitely not a market one in terms of organization methods, and even in the US, the market economy doesn’t bother anyone yet. And so there 50 ml people. for sale soldering are already sitting.
                      1. -3
                        30 October 2018 15: 38
                        Quote: EvilLion
                        Japan's economy is definitely not a market economy in terms of organization methods

                        And what kind of economy is this ?? And what is the economy in the USA? Is it a planned economy? Is this Apple or SONY not a market company ?????
                    2. +4
                      31 October 2018 07: 36
                      Quote: Semen1972
                      Quote: Olezhek
                      Do you agree that these are not synonyms?

                      There are some more synonyms. Take 5ku of countries by GDP and write which one is not market.

                      All successful market, but not all market successful ...
        2. +12
          30 October 2018 06: 44
          Maybe not state-owned enterprises are uncompetitive, but the people who manage them are not ice? More precisely, the quality of management?
          1. -4
            30 October 2018 06: 54
            Quote: 210ox
            Maybe not state-owned enterprises are uncompetitive, but the people who manage them are not ice?

            Well, yes, the enterprise itself is iron, of course people. You can sit on state property evenly, knowing that the founder will solve all issues and will not leave without funds, you do not need to develop and compete.
            1. 0
              30 October 2018 14: 30
              In the same way, you can declare yourself to solve problems, for example, cities and your private office will be kept afloat, only so that the number of unemployed does not grow.

              What are you funny.
              1. -4
                31 October 2018 15: 26
                I read the article and realized: how great it is that we got rid of this rotten on the vine and bloodthirsty legacy scoop! Well, let's live!
            2. 0
              31 October 2018 18: 30
              no need to develop and compete.

              Compete - tired of the hypnosis of the word. What kind of competition within Russia can we talk about? With wild underproduction on the shelves, mainly import, with huge overt and covert unemployment. Due to privatization and de-industrialization, the country has lost economically. and watered. sovereignty. This dissimilation is a splitting of the economic space of Russia for its assimilation by the West. With the restoration of organicity - economic sovereignty - competition will be squeezed out. For the body, internal cooperation is natural, not competition. Competition and competition are needed, but these are not synonymous with competition.
              He worked as the head of the site in Soviet times without "competitors", but he was not allowed to "sit straight", he had to run and strain, sometimes at night.
        3. +17
          30 October 2018 06: 58
          Here in China, it is full of state-owned enterprises. There, the whole financial system, in essence, is state and semi-state. But for some reason, China does not go broke, is not doomed to extinction, and even now, in the context of a trade war with the United States, it is developing. Moreover, if the Chinese leadership does not make mistakes, if it solves the economic problems associated with the dollar and the trade war, then China will not only become the first economy de jure, but also de facto.
          For 10 pre-war years of the USSR, under the usurper, a ghoul, according to liberals, he created an economy that allowed him to win the Second World War, master the atomic and thermonuclear cycles, send a man into space, etc. But after the death of Stalin, a change in the leadership of the USSR took place: part of the elite came to power, destroying the economy of the USSR. As a result, after 30 years, the USSR disappeared, collapsed - a logical result of mediocre rule. Therefore, all the clicks and cries about the inefficiency of state property-it is the opinion of the liberals imposed on us ... that you need to listen to, or you can not listen, spit and spit it out, like a tired chewing gum.

          "People-State-Fatherland" - this is the slogan of every Russian patriot. A strong state, a united people, a prosperous Fatherland, which cannot be broken by internal and external enemies.
          1. +9
            30 October 2018 07: 17
            For 10 pre-war years of the USSR with the usurper, the ghoul, according to Libera. But after Stalin's death occurred



            The most paradoxical thing was that under Stalin there was no such void counters.
            Under Stalin!
            But comrade. Khrushchov as it immediately began to play communism (all to state - all work strictly on the state!)
            and cheap populizm-draw all the salaries ...

            And the era of the Soviet deficit began ... belay
            1. -20
              30 October 2018 07: 47
              Under Stalin, working people were destroyed and taught that the initiative is punishable. So they got a mediocre lazy crowd.
              1. +5
                30 October 2018 10: 11
                And, for example, Stakhanov know that he was destroyed? He only knew that his salary was cosmic, proportional to his productivity.
                1. -3
                  30 October 2018 11: 25
                  Right all who lived then were Stakhanovites.
                  1. +8
                    30 October 2018 18: 16
                    Quote: Severski
                    Right all who lived then were Stakhanovites.

                    By no means all were Stakhanovites, but at the same time all could work in "artels", be they logging, gold mining, fishing, construction or other. And besides this, any peasant farmer could sell his products on the market, yes, yes, I did not make a reservation, the peasants also had their own farms (in those small nooks between collective farms where there was little room for organizing another collective farm) and they often gathered in groups ("artels") for joint harvesting, transportation and sale at market prices in special markets. It was these artels that extinguished the "consumption peaks". But it was Khrushchev who banned ALL these artels and other forms of self-organization.
                2. +1
                  31 October 2018 07: 46
                  Quote: EvilLion
                  And, for example, Stakhanov know that he was destroyed? He only knew that his salary was cosmic, proportional to his productivity.

                  Do you know that for the work of Stakhanov they rebuilt the entire technological cycle of the mine? It turned out that exactly what was written in the article was exactly what Stakhanov gave coal most of all, but here the general issue of coal to the mountain through the mine fell at that time. It was of course a record, if you want a labor feat, but economically (market) it was not profitable.
                3. +2
                  1 November 2018 10: 22
                  Is this the one that recorded the work of several people on himself and declared himself such a fine fellow? Well done, cho.
                  By the way, because of people overfulfilling the plan, everyone else always has problems. because of such a "hero" they increase the plan, and the salary is left old.
                  1. 0
                    1 November 2018 11: 41
                    By the way, because of people overfulfilling the plan, everyone else always has problems. because of such a "hero" they increase the plan, and the salary is left old.


                    In many ways, for this the Stakhanovists did not like ...
                  2. 0
                    1 November 2018 11: 41
                    By the way, because of people overfulfilling the plan, everyone else always has problems. because of such a "hero" they increase the plan, and the salary is left old.


                    In many ways, for this the Stakhanovists did not like ...
              2. +2
                30 October 2018 10: 11
                On the contrary.
                Everything is exactly the opposite - as soon as Comrade Stalin is not at hand, everything quickly turns into a mediocre, lazy crowd.
                And only a skillful combination of carrots and sticks in iron hands is able to return this crowd to a constructive channel.
                The key drawback of the "Comrade Stalin" type of control system is its ultimate personification. This drawback has been successfully eliminated in more advanced control systems, for example, in the so-called. American democracy.
                Iron hands with a stick and a carrot did not disappear, only to name a specific surname will not work.
              3. +12
                30 October 2018 11: 24
                Quote: Severski
                Under Stalin, working people were destroyed and taught that the initiative is punishable.

                Under Stalin, in every possible way they supported entrepreneurial activity not related to exploitation; in every possible way, artels and single handicraftsmen were supported. And all this was destroyed by Khrushchev - a populist and a demagogue.
                1. -2
                  30 October 2018 18: 50
                  Quote: Rakti-Kali
                  Under Stalin, in every way they supported entrepreneurial activity not related to exploitation, in every possible way supported artels and single handicraftsmen

                  They did not support, but allowed their existence.
                  1. +3
                    31 October 2018 10: 48
                    Claymore. Maybe there were lone handicraftsmen, but there were so many that people didn't
                    there were problems with glass and other household utensils on the little things. By the way, our family is a carpenter
                    a pot-bellied chest of drawers banged for 300 rubles (Stalin's). What used to seem like a trifle now turns into a fuss.
                    1. -1
                      31 October 2018 16: 17
                      Once again, they were not disturbed, but they were not supported, they were only allowed to exist (which was written in Russian in white in article 9 of the 36th year’s constitution).
                      1. +2
                        31 October 2018 19: 56
                        firstly they were supported by local authorities, not federal
                        secondly, their main support was overpriced product prices and fixed prices for state services \ goods

                        The state, on the other hand, kept records of what, where, how much and at what price they sold, this information was used to organize larger industries. Often the organizers (ie, businessmen today) became managers at state-owned factories (the director of the plant was guaranteed more than the organizer of the "artel"). I came across two similar stories, one about gold mining in the Urals and one about fishing and processing fish in the east of the USSR
                      2. -1
                        31 October 2018 21: 38
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        firstly they were supported by local authorities, not federal
                        What facts confirm this?

                        secondly, their main support was overpriced product prices and fixed prices for state services \ goods
                        The state overstated the price of the production of artels, artisans and individual farmers? lol

                        The state kept records that where, how much, and at what price they sold, this information was used to organize larger enterprises
                        Nakoy state to organize the production of infa on contract prices in the segment of small commodity production? laughing

                        Often, organizers (i.e. businessmen today)
                        The organizer and businessman are heaven and earth.

                        became managers at state factories (the director of the plant was guaranteed more than the organizer of the "artel")
                        Do you have an example of such a director?

                        I came across two similar stories, one about the extraction of gold in the Urals and one about the extraction and processing of fish in the east of the USSR
                        There are many stories, but few facts confirming them.
              4. +9
                30 October 2018 17: 57
                Quote: Severski
                Under Stalin, working people were destroyed and taught that the initiative is punishable. So they got a mediocre lazy crowd.

                In fact, the exact opposite, for example, is under Stalin "computer development groups" were created and in these groups even a cleaning lady could receive a bonus for improving the computer (this is not a joke, by the way, but a real fact, only there was a cleaner, not a cleaner, but that cleaner suggested that the architecture of the computer be changed, which reduced pollution and improved heat dissipation in critical areas (so reliability increased and it became possible to increase performance)), but under Khrushchev in this industry, all these groups were deprived of "superprofits" for the implementation of the so-called "ratsuh" (rationalization proposals), these ratsuhi were replaced by "bonuses" paid only to managers and engineers. As a result of the abolition of "ratsuh" in this industry, only lazy ass-licking and fanatical fanatics remained to work, and even so the latter made progress in the development of computers. In the end, with the next chapter (I don't remember who exactly), all these groups were closed and converted into ministries, where the assholes became ministers, and the fanatics were deprived of resources for experiments (first of all, they were deprived of time and nerves (about nerves, this is just about punishable initiative)).
                And this is just one small piece of a small industry! (Small at that time!)

                But because of the abolition of the same ratsuhs, the Russian Federation today is losing billions of rubles, the most banal example is the accident at the Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric power station, where everything was according to the papers "within the framework of safety standards", but in fact they made a banal mistake, and all for the fact that neither the inspectors, nor the builders, nor the workers had an incentive to point out what is not included in these very "safety standards." But after the accident, all the outsiders were shocked "how is it a switch and generators in the zone of possible flooding?", "How is manual switching on?" , the electricity was cut off -> the valve was closed and no accident and mass casualties).

                As a postscript, I want to say this: all crises are always tied to a violation of the distribution of superprofits (within the company, within the industry, between industries, within the economy), simply these violations can either be solved or masked (an example of the USSR with a common boiler) or compensated (examples with USA, China and other countries where there is military, trade, geopolitical, etc. compensation).
                1. +2
                  30 October 2018 23: 56
                  Until the thunder strikes ... Whoever hears the voice of one crying? But in the form of an accident and other man-made disasters they notice right away. Here we sometimes express right thoughts. Does anyone hear us? All information flows are moderated by referents and assistants, but for the first persons it’s not the king’s business to delve into the dung, or maybe there isn’t such a goal. Here Stalin got into details in everything. Putin, as they say, also breaks in. But it is evident not in those and not so. A leader must be omnipresent at key points and correctly identify them.
                  Yes, I wrote Ratsukhi, however, when asked and even stand in the labor mark. They paid 10-15 rubles.
                  I add crises is not only the distribution, it is also the mistakes of people who make certain decisions.
                  I would like to note that if the most worthy specialists got into key posts, there would be substantially less problems.
                  1. +1
                    31 October 2018 00: 55
                    Quote: Campanella
                    I add crises is not only the distribution, it is also the mistakes of people who make certain decisions.

                    This statement of yours is erroneous, just the same as in the example of the SSHHPP and it is clear that the error is not in management (making a decision on access to work) because according to safety standards everything was fine there, those who saw, knew and understood this problem did not have an incentive to speak about her, and at the same time had an incentive not to talk about her (for example, an incentive to not talk in the form of a job loss)

                    If the owners of the hydroelectric power plant set aside 1% of the profit in the special fund from which the ratsuh would be paid, and the rationalizers would be paid a significant amount for the ratsuh (as a percentage of the economic benefits of the ratsuh + minimum salary), then the safety standards would be changed even before the accident, thereby saving would have a lot of resources. And the inspectors \ ministers \ owners \ etc would just be engaged in sorting checking and fine-tuning these ratsuhs to practical use. And it turns out that they got superprofits, but they didn’t do part of the work or didn’t do it at the wrong level (they couldn’t do it, they didn’t want to do it, etc, from the point of view of business, it’s not important)
                    1. +1
                      31 October 2018 11: 05
                      Sergey. You write everything correctly. Only the tasks of the owners of the HPP are different from yours.
                      Their main goal is to squeeze income out of this object. They are not shy about holding water,
                      which is the main reason for the lack of flow of the main rivers, and waterlogging of small
                      rivers. And so at all the old enterprises.
                      1. 0
                        31 October 2018 20: 03
                        Firstly, this is just in the interests of the owner, because because of the accident he lost much more money.
                        Secondly, waterlogging of rivers does not occur everywhere and this natural process of hydroelectric power plants simply displaces and changes it.
                        Thirdly, when choosing "hydroelectric power station or shipping + fish" in the Russian Federation, the hydroelectric power station will always be selected, since it provides more economic benefits.
                    2. 0
                      3 November 2018 16: 28
                      Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                      If the owners of the hydroelectric power plant put aside 1% of the profits to the special fund from which the racuhi would be paid, and the rationalizers would be paid a significant amount for the racuhi

                      You hit the patient, if that were the case, then the USSR would be fine, and we would fly to Mars.
                      Now this situation is even worse than in the late USSR. Now the connection between rationalizers and money is absent from the word "absolutely".
                      PS In some places, it’s still warming, like offices with advanced technologies and cool staff (IT, Telecom, Microelectronics)
                      1. 0
                        3 November 2018 17: 30
                        Quote: goose
                        Now this is even worse than in the late USSR.

                        the beginning of the construction of the SSHHPP in 1963, the commissioning of the SSHHPP 1978-1985 the error that led to the accident (specifically, the absence of a system for automatically closing the underwater tunnel in case of an accident) was made at the design stage, that is, far from in the "late" USSR, moreover, the problem may still be present , because instead of introducing an automatic closing system, diesel generators were installed at the top of the platinum, i.e. they just moved all the equipment to the top, information about this was in the media, but there was no information about altering the bolt group under emergency standards.
            2. +16
              30 October 2018 11: 21
              Quote: Olezhek
              But comrade Khrushchev immediately began to play communism

              Quite right! From 1956 to 1960, destroying almost 120 thousand artels, Nikita the corn-worker destroyed 6% of Soviet GDP, deprived more than 2 million people of jobs, destroyed the "outlet" for those wishing to do business, deprived the country of production of 40% of furniture, 70% of tableware, more than a third of all knitwear , almost half of jewelry, almost all the production of children's toys, a significant number of electrical goods and others.
              1. -2
                30 October 2018 18: 54
                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                Nikita maize destroyed 6% of Soviet GDP

                Where did the capitalist index come from in the socialist economic model?
                1. +2
                  30 October 2018 19: 39
                  Lenin on the multistructure of the Soviet economy. Khrushchev broke it, although it was in the names of collective and state farms until the end of the USSR.
                  1. 0
                    30 October 2018 20: 02
                    Quote: naidas
                    Lenin on the multistructure of the Soviet economy
                    What is "Lenin about multistructure"?

                    Spoke?
                    Wrote?
                    Did you dream?

                    Economic structure - type of economy based on a certain form of ownership on the means of production (i.e. this is a form of production relations)

                    How many forms of ownership were in the USSR, and how many are in the Russian Federation — where is multistructure?
                    1. +2
                      30 October 2018 20: 07
                      Lenin wrote, Stalin practiced, Khrushchev buried multistructure.
                      You guys wrote the well-known facts, google if you are not Olgovich.
                      In the textbooks on the Soviet (socialist) economy that were published after the death of I. Stalin, the picture of socialist society was presented exactly in this way: three main forms of ownership and two main economic structures (state and cooperative).
                      1. -1
                        30 October 2018 20: 37
                        Quote: naidas
                        Lenin wrote, Stalin practiced
                        Quote from Lenin, please.

                        Khrushchev buried layering
                        Again.

                        Economic structure is a type of production relations based on the form of ownership of the means of production.

                        In the USSR, there were 3 forms of ownership - state (= public), collective (artels) and small private (sole owners).

                        In the Russian Federation there are - state (federal, regional, municipal), private (small, large, joint-stock), public-private (partnership) and public ("candle factories", etc.).

                        So where is the multistructure economy - in the socialist USSR, or in the capitalist RF?
                      2. 0
                        30 October 2018 21: 04
                        You either made a mistake or wrote nonsense on Rakti-Kali Today, 11:21 am about the cooperatives that you placed in the capital index today, 18:54, and today, at 20:37, you placed the same property as in the USSR .

                        In March - April 1918 V.I. Lenin wrote the famous work "The Immediate Tasks of the Soviet Power" in which he indicated the presence of five different socio-economic types of economy:
                        1) patriarchal, i.e., largely subsistence peasant farming, not related to the market;
                        2) small-scale production (this included the majority of peasant farms associated with the market, and handicraft industry);
                        3) private economic capitalism (private industry and trade, kulak enterprises);
                        4) state capitalism (capitalist enterprises controlled by the state, bourgeois cooperation);
                        5) socialism (state enterprises, collective farms). At that time, small-scale production prevailed in the country's economy.
                        Stalin practiced - in view of clauses 2 and 5, there was cooperation (but I hope you won’t deny the p1 gardens and garden plots), because there was a conversation about it.
                      3. 0
                        31 October 2018 02: 32
                        Quote: naidas
                        You either made a mistake or wrote nonsense on Rakti-Kali Today, 11:21 am to you about the artels that you Today, 18:54 placed in the cap.index
                        About what, nafig, artels?

                        Rakti-Kali stated that (I quote) "maize destroyed 6% Soviet GDP"

                        Hence the question: where did the "Soviet GDP" come from if GDP is a capitalist index representing the total market value expressed in equilibrium price?

                        In March - April 1918 V.I. Lenin wrote the famous work
                        1.
                        I asked to give quote from Leninrather than a quote describing Lenin’s actions.

                        2.
                        In the above description of Lenin’s actions, after paragraph 5, a logical continuation follows:

                        "To build the economic foundation of socialism, it was necessary to eliminate this multistructure and to turn the socialist structure into the only one and undividedly dominating the country's economy. This task took a long time to complete. "

                        Diversity was eliminated by the 40s - only 3 socialist systems remained, which over time were to be reduced to one (which Stalin speaks about in "economic problems" in plain text).

                        Hence the question - in which place of the USSR did you manage to discern multistructure, if it is a hallmark of capitalist states?
                      4. +1
                        1 November 2018 18: 03
                        1.
                        Quote: Claymore
                        In the USSR, there were 3 forms of ownership - state (= public), collective (artels)

                        You have a split personality, one writes that the cooperatives -30 October 2018 20:37 is the social form of ownership, and on October 30, 2018 18:54 in response, the maize has destroyed artels-6% of the GDP of the USSR-artels cap.index.
                        2. The economy of the USSR was the second in the world in terms of GDP (in terms of purchasing power parity).
                        It is interesting if there was no GDP in the USSR, then how did they compare economic indicators with other countries?
                        3. If you need to read this work, “The Immediate Tasks of the Soviet Government,” the quotation I have given you is not enough, you add why you have limited yourself, let's quote further.
                        4. About the second time I repeat to you, the question is not fundamental and I agree with your opponents, the cooperative is a social form of ownership, as well as garden plots.
                        5. Well, if you consider the three forms of ownership in the USSR, your right to be unidirectional, others may have an opinion on how many 3 are not equal to 1.
                      5. -1
                        1 November 2018 23: 48
                        Quote: naidas
                        You have a split personality
                        And you, apparently, have dementia in half with dyslexia.

                        artels - October 30, 2018 20:37 p.m. - social form of ownership
                        So.

                        and on October 30, 2018, 18:54 in response, the maize destroyed artels-6% of the GDP of the USSR-artels cap.index
                        An artel is not an index, but an enterprise.

                        The index is the GDP - moreover, the capitalist index (which I wrote about, but the attack of dyslexia prevented you from understanding the meaning of what was written)

                        The USSR economy was the second in the world in terms of GDP (in purchasing power parity)
                        Bullshit - the GDP index in the USSR was not used and it is not possible to calculate it for the USSR.

                        It is interesting if there was no GDP in the USSR, then how did they compare economic indicators with other countries?
                        Valovym public product.

                        If you need to read this work, “The Next Tasks of the Soviet Government”
                        If you were preoccupied with reading this work of Lenin, then you would know that there are no 5 points stated by you in this work.

                        the quotation given by me to you is not enough for you to add yet, why were you limited, let's quote further
                        Do not wag your hips - in the text you are talking about the elimination of multistructure.

                        I repeat to you about multistructure for the second time — the question is not fundamental and I agree with your opponents, artels are a social form of ownership, just like garden plots
                        You cannot agree with my opponent on this issue, as my opponent did not write a word about the fact that artels and garden plots are a socialist form of ownership.

                        Well, if you consider the three forms of ownership under the USSR, your right to unanimity
                        Once again: 3 is not "a lot", and multi-structure is a distinctive feature of a capitalist economy, not a socialist one.

                        others may have an opinion on how much 3 is not equal to 1.
                        In this matter, others can only rave.
                      6. +1
                        2 November 2018 17: 45
                        Quote: Claymore
                        Bullshit - the GDP index in the USSR was not used and it is not possible to calculate it for the USSR.

                        Then it’s useless for such a smart person to have a discussion with us, it’s important for us on this site to understand the opponent, and not to drown him in definitions, I won’t be mistaken if the vast majority does not distinguish between GDP and GP (GNP). YES and the scientific community about replacing GP with GNP and then GDP didn’t rest as much as you.
                      7. -1
                        2 November 2018 19: 38
                        Quote: naidas
                        Then it’s useless for such a smart person to have a discussion with us, it’s important for us on this site to understand the opponent, and not to drown him in definitions
                        It is useless to have a discussion with you due to the fact that you do not care about anyone’s opinion - you undertake to discuss a subject that you not only do not own, but also do not try to master.

                        I will not be mistaken if the vast majority does not distinguish between GDP and GP (GNP)
                        That's right, and you are among this majority.

                        However, instead of increasing your literacy in this matter, you begin to argue primitively, citing modern mythology as arguments.

                        YES and the scientific community about replacing GPs with GNP and then with GDP did not rest as much as you do.
                        Which scientific community is bourgeois? laughing
                      8. 0
                        2 November 2018 20: 06
                        Well, if you want it, then I spit.
                        And what to do if the opponent has no views, he is not the only one hinting about it, they even give examples, for discussion, opinions and beliefs are needed, and not definitions and cosines.
                        And it is incomprehensible that you deny your opinion in one post, in another cite as an argument, otherwise there is a post, there is no opinion:
                        1. Lenin wrote or not? Then refute, then quote?
                        2. Stalin in every possible way supported entrepreneurial activity not related to exploitation, And all this destroyed Khrushchev, your opinion is also unclear, Article 9 admits. If the state admits it, then it protects and so on.
                        3. From 1956 to 1960, having destroyed almost 120 thousand artels, Nikita-kukuruznik destroyed 6% of Soviet GDP, lost more than 2 million people, - again, you have a story about GDP, do you agree with the post or not?
                        4. Since 1988, in parallel with this indicator, the Gross National Product has been determined — since 1988, bourgeois society in the USSR.
                        In short, I suggest that you express your opinion on the merits, and not rest on the correctness of the cosine.
                      9. -1
                        2 November 2018 22: 33
                        Quote: naidas
                        discussion requires opinion and belief, not definitions and cosines
                        Discussion requires knowledge of the subject of the conversation and the facts on which the point of view is based.

                        And it is incomprehensible that your opinion is denied in one post, in another as an argument
                        On what question do you not understand "my opinion"?

                        1. Lenin wrote or not? Then refute, then quote?
                        You should tell me this, because it was you who referred to the work “Immediate Tasks of the Soviet Power” - and it does not contain a word about the economic structures.

                        2. Stalin strongly supported entrepreneurial activity not related to exploitation,
                        1 The activities of cooperatives are labor activities, not entrepreneurial ones.

                        2 What indicates that it was supported?

                        And all this destroyed Khrushchev-your opinion is also unclear, Article 9 admits. If the state admits it, then it guards and so on
                        Open the dictionary and see the meanings of the words "allow" and "support".

                        From 1956 to 1960, having destroyed almost 120 thousand artels, Nikita-kukuruznik destroyed 6% of Soviet GDP, deprived more than 2 million people of his work, - again, you have a story about GDP, do you agree with the post or not?
                        From 1956 to 1960, almost 120 thousand artels were not destroyed, but were transformed into state enterprises.

                        Nikita-kukuruznik could not destroy 6% of Soviet GDP, because neither this indicator, nor market value, expressed in equilibrium price, existed in the USSR.

                        In the USSR, no one could lose his job more than two million people, because work in the USSR was guaranteed by law, and unemployment did not exist.

                        Accordingly, I do not agree with the statement about six percent of Soviet GDP - these statements are bullshit.

                        4. Since 1988, in parallel with this indicator, the Gross National Product has been determined; since 1988, it has been a bourgeois society in the USSR
                        It's right.

                        In short, I suggest that you express your opinion on the merits, and not rest on the correctness of the cosine
                        Offer it to your reflection in the mirror.


                        ZY
                        Do you write through a translator, or is it your way of expressing yourself?
                2. 0
                  30 October 2018 21: 31
                  Quote: Claymore
                  Where did the capitalist index come from in the socialist economic model?

                  I’ll probably surprise you, but don’t worry, this is normal for those who, like you, prefer to substitute ideology for economic issues, so GDP (GDP - in bourgeoisie) is a universal macroeconomic indicator that reflects purely economic aspects, regardless of ideology. This is not a cosine that can reach the value "3" in wartime. laughing
                  1. 0
                    31 October 2018 03: 48
                    Quote: Rakti-Kali
                    I’ll probably surprise you, but don’t be upset, this is normal for those who like you prefer to replace economic issues with ideology, and so GDP (GDP - in bourgeois) is a universal macroeconomic indicator that reflects purely economic aspects, regardless of ideology
                    Probably I will surprise you even more (and you should be upset about this), but ...

                    1.
                    Replacing economic issues with ideology is not possible, because the formation of ideology is a reaction to the conditions of existence, the form of which is determined just by the same economy.

                    And 2nd.
                    GDP is not a universal macroeconomic indicator, because reflects market value expressed in equilibrium price, which did not exist in the USSR.


                    Therefore, forget about the cosine for a moment, and answer the question - where in the socialist economic model (in which the main indicator has always been the gross public product) took the capitalist index? smile
                    1. +1
                      31 October 2018 11: 19
                      Quote: Claymore
                      Probably I will surprise you even more (and you should be upset about this), but ...

                      You have nothing to surprise me with, and it’s not customary for us to be upset by the words of incompetent and not very smart people.
                      Quote: Claymore
                      GDP is not a universal macroeconomic indicator, because reflects market value expressed in equilibrium price, which did not exist in the USSR.

                      Even CIA Factbook employees look at you with dumb amazement, not to mention Western economists who just nervously smoke from your words.
                      Quote: Claymore
                      Therefore, forget about the cosine for a moment, and answer the question: where did the capitalist index come from in the socialist economic model (in which the main indicator has always been the gross social product)?

                      I repeat once again - GDP is not a capitalist index, it is an index macroeconomic. Was there an economy in the USSR?
                      1. -1
                        31 October 2018 16: 07
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        it’s not customary for us to be upset by the words of incompetent and not very smart people
                        This is good - cheerful cheerleaders with a claim to competency are quite delivering))

                        Even CIA Factbook employees
                        Open a thread of economic literature and see what GDP is, what market value is, what market value is expressed in, and what is equilibrium price.

                        And after you complete the above, answer the questions:
                        a) where in the USSR (where the bulk of the output was sold at solid state prices) did the market value and the equilibrium price come from?
                        b) in what statistical documents of the USSR does the GDP appear?

                        I repeat once again - GDP is not a capitalist index
                        Reflects market cost consumed products and is not capitalistic? lol

                        I repeat - in what statistical documents of the USSR does the GDP appear?
              2. 0
                2 November 2018 09: 59
                Well, not completely destroyed. Most of them became enterprises in the system of the Minlegprom of the USSR and the republics and the Minstpromprom of the republics.
                1. 0
                  3 November 2018 16: 32
                  Minusator is a well-known fact.
              3. +1
                3 November 2018 16: 30
                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                almost all production of children's toys

                Until 1951, artels produced 100% of toys and up to 80% of furniture. A multistructure economy lived in conditions of healthy competition.
                The post-war principle of two KB in one direction is also very good.
          2. -5
            30 October 2018 07: 36
            Quote: The Truth
            Here in China, it is full of state-owned enterprises.

            I am not an oriental expert, but I read that China is actively moving away from state-owned enterprises ...
            Popovod Stalin, there the role was played by a tough form of government, I mean the creation of labor armies, the labor of prisoners, etc., what is justified in those years is unacceptable now. Plus, the enthusiasm of the youth, who believed that by giving their lives (through labor) to the country, they would open a window to a bright future for everyone, now there is no such powerful propaganda, and it is one of the pillars of the state. And yet, let's not say "we won the Second World War," but we WIN.
            Even in China, there is no miracle, there is a huge population that rotates a huge economy. The economy needs people.
            1. -1
              30 October 2018 10: 11
              "Labor of prisoners" - You don't have to read further. Wali teach at least the basics of economics.
              1. 0
                30 October 2018 10: 44
                No need to be rude. Did not use the labor of prisoners in the USSR? Used! Tell me there was no labor army? So my grandfather fled from there, worked in a coal mine, after escaping according to the documents of his dead brother, he was called to the fleet, where he served 5 years. But then it was justified, it could be done, now not.
                1. +2
                  30 October 2018 10: 57
                  You will not believe it, but prison labor is used all over the world. This is useful even for prisoners if they are taught something else, only this work only reduces the cost of maintaining prisoners, but does not bring profit. In the gulag, by the way, those who didn’t shirk were paid money and could be spent there.

                  There is no such thing as a labor army in the history of the USSR. There were mobilization, for example, in the Second World War, when they could mobilize 60 professors, together with women, if he had no better use, or shkolotu, to urgently dig up anti-tank ditches, and after that they demobilized immediately.

                  As for the work in the coal mine, I understand that you have never been in production and have a bad idea of ​​what it is. It’s still necessary to teach a person to work in any industry, and the mine is also extremely dangerous, so it’s problematic to get to such places, kill both yourself and the site. So usually for the bonded contingent they find something simpler and safer.

                  A very good example of such a hit in a mine is described by Willy Birkemeier in "Oasis of Humanity No. 71/80", when he, together with other German prisoners, did somehow get into the mine, but they did not work there for long, before the technologist popularly explained and to them, and, apparently, to the management, what is the price, and that they could simply be overwhelmed there.
                  1. -2
                    30 October 2018 11: 36
                    I repeat, you don’t need to be rude, we did not switch to YOU. About the benefits of labor, tell those who dug Belomorkanal.
                    About the labor army, my grandfather was taken at the age of 16 from home, without subpoenas, arrived and taken away. At the prey, he waved Kyle and dragged trolleys. Nobody taught anyone there, it was in 45-47 years. He died at the age of just over 60 from lung cancer, as a result of silicosis.
                    1. +1
                      30 October 2018 11: 57
                      And something other than the White Sea Canal, the work is done completely stupidly with shovels, and Suez even dug without shovels, dragging the African land with basins, can you remember? On the White Sea Canal, the total number of 80 thou. People sat, for such work even in modern Russia it is possible for prisoners to easily recruit the necessary number. It is logical, not to look for Komsomol members throughout the country, but simply to collect salaries, who still were and will be. Even in the Stalin era, 2 / 3 inmates were purely criminal. And let the Komsomol members build some Magnitogorsk, and then work on it.

                      I worked in the city s / c in 70-s. Half of the city and the industrial zone they built. Naturally, on trucks and under guard from soldiers of explosives.

                      I repeat once again about the labor armies, not the stars. Nobody could just pick up your grandfather. In order for someone to take it, the appropriate order must go out and go down the chain of command. For example, the order to mobilize schoolchildren to perform some work in wartime. In 1945 th such could not be.

                      Once again, you have no idea what production is, how it works and how much documentation it generates in the process.
                      1. -3
                        30 October 2018 12: 17
                        ALL large construction sites (hydroelectric power stations, state district power stations, railroads, etc.) went with the use of slave labor, well, they need a way there, look at the information on excavations of mass graves at these construction sites. And about the labor army, you in vain accuse me of lying, it was as I described. You can’t believe it, it’s your business.
                      2. +3
                        30 October 2018 14: 33
                        Once again, did you at least read the history textbook for the 5 class about changing social formations? Why slavery is replaced by feudalism, and then capitalism.

                        And I’m not in church, I’m declaring that “I believe / don’t believe” is not necessary. Give me a document confirming that in the USSR there was such a thing as a labor army.

                        And everyone had grandfathers, my grandmother had a 4 criminal record, and during the years of the Second World War he sat out in this zone of yours, and then he managed to straighten his spravochka that he was a front-line soldier. And he was hardly the champion of the USSR in decency.
                      3. 0
                        30 October 2018 17: 02
                        Quote: EvilLion
                        Give me a document confirming

                        https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%B8_1942%E2%80%941946_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2
                      4. 0
                        30 October 2018 21: 36
                        Quote: raw174
                        https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%B8_1942%E2%80%941946_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2

                        "The current version of the page has not yet been reviewed by experienced contributors and may differ significantly from the version reviewed on April 26, 2017; reviews require 15 revisions."
                        Scans. We need scans of documents from collections of laws of the USSR.
                      5. 0
                        30 October 2018 17: 06
                        Yes, it was called differently in the documents, but the essence does not change from this, we are not formalists.
                      6. +2
                        30 October 2018 20: 28
                        No, we are just the formalists and demand a clear definition of all terms, moreover at a particular point in time, because the values ​​tend to change over time.

                        I see nothing but the known mobilizations of the military period. Then, in fact, the whole country was mobilized and transferred almost to serf status. From the factory just at will it would not quit. Circumstances demanded.
                    2. 0
                      3 November 2018 16: 20
                      Quote: raw174
                      I repeat, you don’t need to be rude, we did not switch to YOU. About the benefits of labor, tell those who dug Belomorkanal.

                      You need to read historical documents about how prisoners and Belomorkanal are related. The Government did not plan to use the labor of prisoners for such facilities. It was an initiative of criminal authorities, and political practically did not get to the construction site. Guard motivated ZK was not necessary.
            2. +3
              30 October 2018 18: 28
              Quote: raw174
              To Stalin’s argument, a rigid form of government played a role there, I mean the creation of labor armies, the labor of prisoners, etc.,

              Google the number of prisoners under Stalin and under Putin in absolute quantitative and percentage (of the population). And then you will see that there are much more prisoners now. And yes now they are "working" the same.
              1. 0
                30 October 2018 18: 58
                Quantity doesn’t mean anything, I’m talking about their work and conditions of detention. Now they do not work, except for sewing and staling. Now z \ k in greenhouse conditions. Personally, I am for the use of labor of certain categories of salaries in harmful unskilled labor, but society today will not support this.
                1. 0
                  31 October 2018 00: 23
                  Quote: raw174
                  Quantity doesn’t mean anything, I’m talking about their work and conditions of detention.

                  It is precisely the conditions of detention that make prisoners' labor ineffective, all the supporters of slave labor do not take into account that prisoners need to be protected, which means spending money, and taking into account low labor productivity, the cost of work becomes many times higher compared to the worker + its incentive, and with the advent of systems labor automation, this difference has become many times greater.
                  Quote: raw174
                  Personally, I am for the use of labor of certain categories of salaries in harmful unskilled labor, but society today will not support this.

                  To begin with, name at least one such low-skilled job where it is more profitable to use prisoners instead of stimulating workers and / or developing automation systems.

                  In general, when I was personally interested in this topic (the most profitable labor of prisoners), I was able to find only one area where the work of prisoners is most justified. These are scientifically based experiments on a person, and specifically:
                  1) Experiments to create the technology of "nutritional mixtures", this is "food in tubes / tablets" in the form in which it is described in modern science fiction. Here we are talking about many years of testing such mixtures on prisoners who have committed crimes that are insignificant in relation to the community (state + residents + descendants + territories) where it is important to preserve the life and working capacity of the prisoner after the expiration of the term of imprisonment.
                  2) Experiments on the creation of the "neural interface" technology is the transfer of information between the brain and an external source directly, bypassing the senses, as well as technologies derived from this, for example, "neurocoms", "neural networks", "mind fusion", "virtual reality with full immersion "(if you do not understand what and why, read science fiction). Here we are talking about long-term research with a mild risk to life (there is a chance to stay alive and healthy, but small), in this version it is the most important technology for the community as a whole in the unlimited long term and at the same time a good incentive "not to think about committing a crime "and at the same time a good way of expelling criminals from the territory of the community (because of the fear of getting tested, they will flee to other countries)
                  At the same time, there is simply no option number "3" with experiments. (Either from a scientific point of view, there is more harm than good from prisoners, or the prisoner has no chance of surviving)
                  ps Personally, I could not find or think of any other options on the topic "low-skilled labor of prisoners is profitable in the long term." Therefore, I'm curious if you can find and / or come up with such a work.
                2. 0
                  1 November 2018 07: 25
                  About the conditions. Actually, in most cases the conditions of ordinary workers did not differ much from the conditions for prisoners.
                  Sometimes they were worse, because the hard worker also had to maintain his house after work and sometimes it was necessary to get food.
          3. 0
            30 October 2018 07: 55
            Quote: The Truth
            Here in China,

            Right! Only in China, as before, more than half of the Chinese are superfluous, that is, they are not needed at all! And so all is well.
            1. +1
              30 October 2018 10: 07
              And in the USA, how many are superfluous and unnecessary? Do they have all the work there?
              1. 0
                30 October 2018 10: 12
                Well, millions of 50 seem to have already received food aid.
                1. 0
                  3 November 2018 16: 43
                  Quote: EvilLion
                  Well, millions of 50 seem to have already received food aid.

                  It is not in vain that they receive food coupons and help. Their very existence does not allow those who have work to relax and are more modest about salary requests.
              2. -2
                30 October 2018 10: 44
                Quote: meandr51
                And in the USA, how many are superfluous and unnecessary? Do they have all the work there?

                I state a fact and do not do expert evaluations.
          4. 0
            30 October 2018 12: 48
            Here in China, it is full of state-owned enterprises.

            China got out not on state orders, but on private business, on the fact that they began to supply the whole world with small things + competent business support. Unlike the USSR, where there was no business support .. Yes, and now it is not.
            1. +6
              30 October 2018 15: 40
              In the USSR, the era of Comrade Stalin was state support for cooperatives - state prices for materials and equipment, state lending. All this stopped under Khrushchev, along with the destruction of cooperatives by a ban on personal plots and the production of marketable goods by a private person.
            2. +1
              31 October 2018 02: 31
              Donetsk.
              Markets have opened up to China, and half of its industry is owned by transnational corporations. Of them purposefully made the world consumer goods factory with cheap labor. China has seized its chance and is now reaping the benefits. By the way, you greatly underestimate government and party control in Chinese business.
          5. +2
            30 October 2018 15: 35
            China develops according to the patterns of the USSR, the covenants of Comrade Stalin.
            1. -1
              30 October 2018 15: 39
              Quote: bodzu
              And the covenants of Comrade Stalin.

              Exactly !!!! laughing drinks
              1. +4
                30 October 2018 19: 00
                Quote: Semen1972
                Quote: bodzu
                And the covenants of Comrade Stalin.

                Exactly !!!! laughing drinks

                Your Sarcasm is not appropriate, and the Chinese themselves repeated this many times, just not everyone understands these same Stalin's covenants, and all of them can be simplified to a couple of postulates
                1) To prevent "exploitation" is when someone is robbing someone else's profit without doing anything. Under Stalin, only the state had this right. There is only one exception, the state can allow to rob a certain part of someone else's profits, provided that it is beneficial to the state. For example artels, cooperatives, lotteries, etc. in the USSR or today's banks in China.
                2) To maximally stimulate rationalization proposals, regardless of who they were invented (the example given above is with a cleaner and a computer).
                3) Stimulate the investment of private funds in small and medium-sized businesses with a long return of funds while minimizing and freezing prices for state services \ goods. For example, higher prices for products in private markets (under Stalin) or lower bank interest, light credit, lower taxes and state taxes. payments, free provision of space and resources in China
                4) Crazy investment in infrastructure projects, primarily energy, transport, industrial and territorial (organization of platforms for accelerated development).
            2. 0
              1 November 2018 10: 20
              Quote: bodzu
              China develops according to the patterns of the USSR, the covenants of Comrade Stalin.
              -and where it was written in the covenants -that most of the large-scale production TNK should be in your own country?
        4. +5
          30 October 2018 10: 06
          The same story "proved" the opposite. On the example of China. Or "proved" that the USSR is stronger than all of Europe (in World War II). History proves nothing. There is simply a chain of random events. Which sometimes you manage to manage. Anything is possible in history at any moment. It can still change exactly the opposite. When a super-powerful socialist state emerges with an absolutely precise and rationally working State Planning Committee and incorruptible automatic State Control, which absolutely does not need the concept of "profit". It will simply become obsolete.
        5. +4
          30 October 2018 10: 07
          "raw174 (Ravil) Today 06:16 NEW"

          GAV! Just to bark ..
          Statistics on the development of the economy and the growth rate of the USSR indicate the opposite. There were no economic reasons for its collapse. The growth rate of the economy frightened the West
          iron lady aka TETCHER: "" "The Soviet Union is a country that posed a serious threat to the Western world. I am not talking about a military threat. In fact, there was none. Our countries are quite well armed, including with nuclear weapons.

          I mean the economic threat. Thanks to a planned policy and a peculiar combination of moral and material incentives, the Soviet Union managed to achieve high economic indicators. The percentage growth in gross national product was about two times higher than in our countries. If we take into account the enormous natural resources of the USSR, then with the rational management of the economy the Soviet Union had very real opportunities to oust us from world markets.

          Therefore, we have always taken actions aimed at weakening the economy of the Soviet Union and creating internal difficulties for it.
          The main thing was the imposition of an arms race ....... ""
          The great and mighty collapsed when goals coincided in its collapse:
          - inside the USSR (officials of the ruling party and the state After the collapse, according to Fursov, 70% of top officials and 80% of the middle and lower levels of government became "new Russians") Creeping counterrevolution to change the form of ownership and the form of state Stalin) and
          - outside (the United States and the West. who understood. that from outside the Union cannot be blamed by different SIOPs. The bet was made on Russian officials - corrosion inside))
          And today, all the same rabies of the USA and the West from there, they frighten the development of Russia (and not the imaginary military threats to Europe) .and its strengthening. and the methods are the same .. and the emphasis on the bureaucracy of Russia as in the center, with great attention to its regions.
          Change the power of Russia,. Change the President.-Create chaos in the country .and confusion their goal and dream. ..... go ahead comrades ....
          1. -1
            30 October 2018 10: 52
            And we in the 80s bought a five-year penny, bought the rubber on wheels, poured tires on our own engine, honestly stolen at the state farm ... I saw the first PC in the mid-90s, I bought a home in the 2000s. We look at the decayed, what do we see? They there on three heads lived better in everyday life. Here you have the advanced industry. Yes, they sewed their underpants, but dreamed and tried to get imported ones.
            1. +2
              30 October 2018 21: 57
              Quote: raw174
              And in the 80s, we’ve bought a five-year penny for the price of a new one

              They would buy the 412th, they would save money.
              Quote: raw174
              rubber welded onto the wheels themselves

              Like many car owners on the "decaying" one, there were the same problems with the "rubber", only we had "little", and they had "expensive".
              Quote: raw174
              an autol, honestly stolen at the state farm, was poured into the engine ...

              Vorie. It’s a pity they didn’t plant it.
              Quote: raw174
              The first PC I saw in the mid-90s

              Your personal problems. My first PC was bought in 1989, and the school was organized in a computer class in 1986.
              And in the "decaying" home PCs, everything was by no means cloudless, the same "Atari", "Commodore" and "486" of the mid-late 80s and the hemp of the first early 90s at a price of 2500-3000 dollars were by no means not an easily accessible commodity even for the middle class of the United States with its salaries of $ 1500 and mortgage payments for housing in the amount of 800-1000 dollars a month.
              Quote: raw174
              Yes, they sewed their underpants, but dreamed and tried to get imported ones.

              Lavrov gave such a diligent very accurate description.
          2. -4
            30 October 2018 12: 50
            Quote: To be or not to be
            Thanks to a planned policy and a peculiar combination of moral and material incentives, the Soviet Union managed to achieve high economic indicators.

            How does this relate to a shortage in stores? You can produce billions of tons of metal, but there was a queue for cars for 20 years ... Unlike today's Russia.
            1. +3
              30 October 2018 16: 02
              Just as in automation, the distortion of incoming information gives an error in the management team, so in economics the same result and, as a result, empty shelves. If mistakes are repeated in the belt, this leads to the so-called error which leads to a fatal result, the destruction of the mechanism.
              1. 0
                31 October 2018 02: 52
                Donetsk.
                We did not build passenger cars intentionally. Khrushchev said: "Soviet citizens must travel by public transport" - and so it was. When the Italians built a car factory for us in Tagliati, the Japanese offered to build several more to fully meet the needs. But already Brezhnev repeated Khrushchev's behest. This was the position of the authorities - to keep the people in a "black body", the authorities are preparing for privatization.
                1. -2
                  31 October 2018 02: 56
                  Donetsk.
                  When choosing what kind of car to build the plant for, we chose Fiat - the ugliest and most unprepossessing - for the people, you should not indulge. But our engineers chose Renault - beautiful, reliable, promising ...
                  1. +2
                    31 October 2018 10: 30
                    As far as I remember, the choice was not entirely straightforward and it was as if there were no queues of manufacturers to build a plant in the USSR. And Fiat was then a quite successful company and the base penny model is quite popular.
                    As for Renault, I don’t know what model the engineers chose, but the Romanian neighbors released a copy with their backside down called Dacia up to the 90s. Wow, the car was terrible and in quality as a Zaporozhets.
                  2. 0
                    1 November 2018 07: 43
                    It’s only necessary to understand that at the same time we saved approx. Several million dollars, as the Italians, having problems with finances, very lowered the price. At the same time, we will not forget that pipes have not yet been built to the west.
              2. -1
                31 October 2018 10: 21
                Quote: bodzu
                If mistakes repeat in time

                If errors are not noticed passing through all the institutions, then the system itself is erroneous.
          3. +3
            30 October 2018 15: 43
            The decline of the USSR did not happen on its own, but with the help of agents of influence from the West and the seizure of economic management.
        6. +5
          30 October 2018 10: 09
          The utilization of enterprises was 100%, there was a plan. Today, None of the enterprises operate in a warehouse, the warehouse is clogged, the plant is stopped. OWN product is not sold. even underpants are imported. Electricity is one of the most expensive. Salary is not small, maximum taxes, maximum loans, expensive raw materials, what kind of production are you talking about? For 25 years, the economy has not improved, the main income from the sale of gas and oil, the entire social burden, assistance to other countries, the whole state has taken off, and where is the money? Count?
          1. -2
            30 October 2018 10: 23
            Go to the store and ask how many percent of the goods are from a Russian manufacturer.
            Maybe there will be a hunt to shout slogans.
          2. +5
            30 October 2018 14: 41
            True? In general, do you know that, for example, a blast furnace cannot be physically stopped, then later, how will everything harden, just blow up? And what generally is the launch of prom. equipment. I don’t have blast furnaces here, but only tire vulcanizers, in order to turn it into operation, it is necessary to warm up for several hours, and for it to cool down after turning it off. Full stop only on the repair day, or on a holiday, which usually also means scheduled repairs. Start - this is an extremely difficult and lengthy event. And work at the warehouse is quite an occupation. Actually, it is only in this way that the plants work, no matter how they tried to inculcate the return game in the warehouse. This is even characteristic of internal production chains in order to maintain rhythm.

            And yes, I have here, because of the plan, the products are no longer warehouses, but all the empty seats in the workshop are clogged.

            You just keep quiet about oil and gas, if you don’t understand a damn question, then better keep quiet, you can’t be smart.
            1. 0
              30 October 2018 19: 20
              and any glass production is also
          3. +1
            3 November 2018 17: 17
            Quote: Forestol
            what kind of production are you talking about

            Our laws are written for trade, the redistribution of profit is all there. Manufacturers have a share of 5 to 30% of the total margin on the product. The credit system is such that production will be in bondage, while for trade it is quite acceptable, because margins are higher and short revs.
        7. +1
          30 October 2018 10: 49
          Quote: raw174
          The Union, with all the achievements, was doomed precisely for economic reasons.

          There were several reasons!
          1. The entire Soviet economy from the 30's to the beginning of the 50's was sharpened under tight administrative management and this economy worked pretty well. With the departure of Stalin's stage, the new actors decided to change everything, but they didn’t come up with the idea to sit in two chairs (the difference in incomes of the population and socialist relations within the same population with each other) until the end of 80's !!!
          2. Part of the industry and all agriculture were subsidized! In industry, subsidies were needed in order to preserve jobs, and in agriculture, so as not to frighten the Soviet people with the final prices of products!
          3. Well, at the end of the season, the prima of the Soviet theater, comrade Gorbachev established a cooperative movement. And 90% of cooperatives were like buy / sell. What came of it? But it turned out that the cooperatives began to buy manufactured goods, products, alcohol at state trading bases giving good bakshish to the pockets of the managers of these bases. So there was a total deficit of the end of 80's!
          1. -2
            30 October 2018 12: 54
            Quote: Serg65
            But it turned out that the cooperatives began to buy manufactured goods, products, alcohol at state trading bases giving good bakshish to the pockets of the managers of these bases. So there was a total deficit of the late 80's!

            What?? Seriously??? Stalls bought all the products ???? And where did they do it, crushed by tractors? ... I did not read any more nonsense. The markets just started supplying people with what they want, you could buy jeans, sneakers, a tape recorder. And in what department stores it was ????
            1. +7
              30 October 2018 12: 58
              The markets just started supplying people with what they want, you could buy jeans, sneakers, a tape recorder. And in what department stores it was ????


              Don't "supply" yourself ...
              They bought scarce goods and resold!
              The quantity of goods did not increase even once.
              1. -9
                30 October 2018 13: 25
                Quote: Olezhek
                They bought scarce goods and resold!
                The quantity of goods did not increase even once.

                Who to buy from and what exactly ??? What country did you live in? Do not remember such a term as "shuttle" ???? There were imported clothes, household appliances, food, alcohol, cars. In the Soviet Union, all this was nothing.
                1. +4
                  31 October 2018 06: 45
                  Quote: Semen1972
                  What country did you live in?

                  Sema, do not drive the wave! We are talking about the late USSR, and not about the early Russian Federation !!! Shuttles began to drive to Poland, Turkey, Pakistan and China after the collapse of the USSR !!!!
                2. +1
                  31 October 2018 10: 37
                  Shuttles appeared after the USSR. And the first cooperatives were created at enterprises and taking advantage of legislative exemptions, exported scarce goods and materials from them and had the opportunity to pay salaries that were not available to enterprises. A classmate told me much later that working in a cooperative was busy for no more than 1/2 day, and received a paycheck of 5 times more than who worked at the enterprise. Although they were practically in the same rooms.
                  Prohibition and cooperatives were the last nails in the coffin of the USSR.
            2. +3
              31 October 2018 06: 43
              Quote: Semen1972
              I did not read more nonsense

              laughing You are strange people!
              Quote: Semen1972
              The markets just started supplying people with what they want, you could buy jeans, sneakers, a tape recorder

              Did the markets themselves produce jeans, sneakers and tape recorders ???
              At least a little gray matter stir !!!!
              1. -2
                31 October 2018 10: 28
                Quote: Serg65
                Did the markets themselves produce jeans, sneakers and tape recorders ???

                What are you drowning for, I don’t understand? I lost a thread from your whirls of stupidity. You tell me directly who the Americans destroyed the USSR or the fifth column, which America paid .. And then people in the USSR were happy with everything and everything they had? What other fairy-tale stamps are there, immediately lay out everything, laugh and disperse.
                1. +2
                  1 November 2018 07: 07
                  Quote: Semen1972
                  I lost a thread from your whirls of stupidity

                  laughing Well, I already noticed this, you often lose a thread!
          2. +5
            30 October 2018 14: 41
            Industrial cooperation in the USSR existed before 1960 year, do not grind nonsense.
            1. -2
              30 October 2018 15: 43
              Quote: EvilLion
              Industrial cooperation in the USSR existed before 1960 year, do not grind nonsense.

              And then the 60s ???
              1. +1
                30 October 2018 20: 37
                Given that it was in 1960 that Khrushch canceled it. For example, the production of children's toys before this was provided by IP on 99%. In some types of food industry, PI also dominated. And EMNIP clothing. For many invalids of the Second World War, unable to work at the plant, the possibility of at least cutting wooden spoons if there are no legs, but not hands from the ass, was an important source of income.

                There are activities where individual ability decides. EMNIP earned a lot of scientists who could provide services on a contract basis.
                1. -1
                  31 October 2018 08: 13
                  IP at 99%. In some types of food industry, IP also dominated. AND EMNIP clothing. For many invalids of the Second World War who are not able to work at the factory


                  But it seems they interfered with the triumph of communism ...
                  And artels and invalids of the Second World War
                  1. 0
                    31 October 2018 11: 32
                    Quote: Olezhek
                    But it seems they interfered with the triumph of communism ...

                    They interfered with the Trotskyist demagogue and voluntarist Khrushchev, who set out to destroy the "cult of Stalin's personality" (and by the way, the personality there was worth a cult), only in order to replace it with the cult of Khrushchev's personality (naturally unsuccessful, because it is impossible to create a cult of such a pitiful personality). Mao was right when he spoke about Khrushchev: "Thus, it is clear that the" struggle against the personality cult "put forward by the leadership of the CPSU was inherited from Bakunin, Kautsky, Trotsky and Tito, who used it to attack the leaders of the proletariat and destroy the proletarian revolutionary movement . "
          3. 0
            30 October 2018 15: 45
            Validate your findings with concrete examples.
          4. 0
            30 October 2018 21: 29
            > There were several reasons!

            but not the ones you listed, but others
            1) There was no general theory of socialism, it was created, in fact, by Lenin, according to his own understanding, and was pushed back by Stalin. Socialism was a nonequilibrium system; it had three levels of isolation - the cash ruble, the cashless ruble, and the state currency monopoly. The theory of nonequilibrium systems appeared only after the death of Stalin.
            It is essentially impossible to build a new society without a theoretical plan - Western society was also built, at one time, according to the plan, the concept of man as an unchanging atom, of human competition. From these ideas, the political economy of capitalism already unambiguously follows.

            2) The idea of ​​man, embedded in Marxism was completely unrealistic, man was reduced, completely and completely, to consciousness. And the religion, which believed that man is sinful by nature, and has a soul, and psychology, from the beginning of the 20th century considered this view to be outdated and. primitive. It is impossible to build a new person, which was the main task of the USSR, with a completely unrealistic approach / model of the person himself, while ignoring the source of the problems that sits in the person himself and is in no way connected with social conditions.
            Because of this, the Soviet elite degraded from generation to generation, and in three generations the USSR collapsed.

            USSR v 2.0 is the concept of a nonequilibrium economy + religion, as the only realistic, historically tested tool for working with the unconscious
            1. +1
              31 October 2018 06: 53
              Quote: xtur
              but not the ones you listed

              But if Mr. Petrosyan we are already at YOU, then as a simple layman I can tell you .... a Soviet person almost always dreamed of imported clothes, that in 30's, that in 50's, that in 60's and 70- x, and in 80's there was generally a peak of desires! Well, the question of mere mortals .... why your communist philosophy could not ensure the happiness of the Soviet people ???
              1. 0
                31 October 2018 16: 24
                > Mr. Petrosyan

                Petrosyan is a respected person for us, if that. And yes, when you curse yourself, think about what and how you write - for example, according to the canons of the Russian language, the phrase quoted by me should be highlighted with commas when writing. As a result, you wanted to run into / express dissatisfaction in some way, but you expressed dissatisfaction, but it did not work out.

                > if we are already on YOU

                all these troubles - you, you, this is all for us from the devil, we express our respect for a person in a different way, this is not a way of insulting, and this is not what I draw attention to. I write how it will turn out at the moment, sometimes I write "you", but much more often, as usual, the way I wrote

                > as a common man I can notice you

                I was a simple Soviet man, but I never was a layman - this word was abusive in the USSR, the Soviet cultural space, and even more so, in the Soviet school.

                > Soviet people almost always dreamed of imported clothes

                neither me, nor my friends, in Armenia have ever dreamed of such things, although they were desired and received.

                > Well, the question of a mere mortal .... why your communist philosophy could not ensure the happiness of the Soviet people ???

                A person is not born for happiness at all - there is no such religion on earth that would say so. This is an affirmation statement. These are their postulates

                Even Soviet ideology and Marxism did not make such primitive declarations, since these are all serious philosophical questions that require serious reflection, analysis and all other methods of exerting intelligence

                Well, because you read diagonally what I wrote to you, please re-read point 2, there is just about the person and his model in Marxism
                1. +1
                  31 October 2018 16: 32
                  by the way, what would you know - the Soviet project is the oldest project of a well-built society in the history of Europe, considered and substantiated by one of the greatest intellectuals in European history, and probably one of the most authoritative - we are talking about the work of Plato's State, which proves the need to abandon private property.
                2. 0
                  1 November 2018 10: 34
                  Quote: xtur
                  > Soviet people almost always dreamed of imported clothes
                  neither me, nor my friends, in Armenia have ever dreamed of such things, although they were desired and received.
                  - it was possible not to dream, it was still not to get ...
                  Remember the formula "Armenian shabashnik"? It was a very popular formula in the USSR ....
                  when a team of builders arrived at the collective farm, was hired to work, quickly built an object, received a salary of 2-3 times the size of the brigade, and safely shared it with the chairman, rolled off ....
                  sometimes after them they had to demolish everything and rebuild (rarely), very often they managed to sell building materials and cement / gypsum,
                  these brigades "wished and received" all the joys of life, changed cars annually, threw money in taverns, etc.
                  1. 0
                    1 November 2018 14: 57
                    > - it was possible not to dream - it was still not possible to receive ...

                    Who are you anyway?
                    all my environment, the environment of my father, our relatives, these are scientists and engineers. And we had everything, they just all worked for 20-30 years at two jobs, that's all. Honestly earned their money and supported their families.

                    > The formula "Armenian shabashnik" remember? Sooooo, the running formula was in the USSR ....

                    covens were in those areas where there was no regular earnings. In exchange for the coven, people have not seen their families for most of the year - and the family in Armenia has always been in first place compared to money.
                    So you're all off topic.
                    1. 0
                      2 November 2018 12: 37
                      Quote: xtur
                      It is a scientist and an engineer. And we had everything, they just all worked for 20-30 years at two jobs, that's all.
                      - engineer on two work - is it a linden or production such that an engineer is needed there for reporting (like we are not worse than everyone!). A scientist can teach, I believe in it, an engineer - no
                      Quote: xtur
                      covens were in those areas where there was no regular earnings.
                      -were absolutely from all areas of the Armenian SSR
                      Quote: xtur
                      and the family in Armenia has always been in first place, compared to money.
                      - that's just the children there in Armenia and on the street were from the same Armenian popes ....
                      about money - a separate song ...
        8. +5
          30 October 2018 11: 13
          Quote: raw174
          It's just that enterprises in full state ownership are not competitive

          Yeah, yeah ... But the Soviet enterprises were quite competitive to themselves until May 1988. And then the Law "On Cooperation in the USSR" was adopted, which allowed cooperatives to engage in any types of activity not prohibited by law, including trade and the right to use hired labor. It was here that the "red directors" turned around -
          most of the cooperatives created on the basis of industrial enterprises engaged in frank speculation, the production of goods of dubious quality, or financial transactions for cashing out money, and all the products of the enterprises were sold through cooperatives at market prices, the cooperative made a profit, and the enterprise itself did not fulfill the supply plan products, so still remained without working capital, because the products were produced at the expense of the enterprise, and then often even below the cost of transfer avalas cooperative. So the permission to create cooperatives at enterprises was a fatal mistake of the USSR authorities, which ultimately undermined the Soviet economy in 1989-1991.
          1. +1
            30 October 2018 11: 43
            And where were their products? Okay cars for private use, and household appliances? When did you get a TV? Have you ever dreamed about import pants? The same thing! The author is right.
            1. +4
              30 October 2018 12: 27
              Google "distribution system". In the same Grozny, as in the capital of the autonomous republic, until 1991 there was everything, including imported consumer goods. There was "vashche uasho" in Baku. But as you come to the RSFSR, to Tver or Rostov-on-Don, so at least a ball rolling. I remember very well the "sausage" tours on the Rostov-Amvrosievka electric train for the products of the Taganrog sausage factory, which could not be found in Taganrog or Rostov itself.
            2. 0
              30 October 2018 22: 24
              Quote: raw174
              And where were their products?

              Google "distribution of goods in the USSR" again. In addition, in the 80s, a qualitative increase in the welfare of the population took place in the USSR, people began to earn a lot of money, and they also began to buy a lot of goods, the industry did not keep up with the growth of the purchasing power of the population. But instead of expanding industrial entrepreneurship, as under Stalin, which would allow to saturate the increased needs of the population at the expense of internal resources, Misha Judah began purchasing consumer goods "made in from there" for foreign currency and gold, and even legalized speculation by allowing the creation of cooperatives at existing enterprises , which led to the fact that the "red directors" openly sabotaged deliveries at state prices, detained goods in warehouses, creating an artificial shortage and reselling the goods produced for state funds at commercial prices in cooperative stores. I remember how in the late 80s "merchants" bought goods from state stores without even allowing him to get to them, the trucks were turned right in front of the gates of the city supermarket and redirected to co-shops and second-hand shops, and there would have been the same demi-season women's boots for 37,50 for a couple in a supermarket, but in a cooperative store they turned into boots for 78,80 rubles.
              1. 0
                31 October 2018 08: 15
                In addition, in the 80-ies in the USSR there was a qualitative increase in the welfare of the population, people began to earn a lot of money, and they began to buy a lot of goods, industry did not keep pace with the growth of the purchasing power of the population.


                Interesting is this "growth in welfare": money was printed, but goods were not delivered ...
                1. 0
                  31 October 2018 11: 35
                  Quote: Olezhek
                  Interesting is this "growth in welfare": money was printed, but goods were not delivered ...

                  As I understand it, the Chukchi are not a reader, right? I have already described why "the goods were not delivered", but apparently you are not interested in reading.
          2. +1
            3 November 2018 17: 25
            Quote: Rakti-Kali
            or financial operations to cash out money, and all products of enterprises have been sold through cooperatives at market prices

            It should be recalled that at that time non-cash rubles of fixed assets could not be mixed with trade and put into retail circulation, so investments could not be stolen anywhere. And cooperatives have found a way to cash this money, which gave a start to the capital of the majority of the modern elite.
            In fact, Perestroika grew into a new NEP, which this time got out of control after 3 years and destroyed the country. Gorbachev probably didn’t read for what reasons the Leninist NEP was curtailed.
        9. MrK
          +1
          30 October 2018 13: 00
          Quote: raw174
          It's just that enterprises in full state ownership are not competitive

          Colleague. At the end of the 90’s, when privatization was basically completed in the Russian Federation, one of the “fathers” of privatization in the Leningrad Region - Alfred KOH, said in a burst of candor at a press conference, THAT THE EFFICIENCY OF THE ENTERPRISE'S WORK DOES NOT REALLY DEPEND ON THE PROPERTY FORM, AND DEPENDS ONLY ON THE QUALITY OF MANAGEMENT WORK.
          At the end of the 90's, this sounded a revelation. However, he could have been more frank - the thing has already been done, now you can smile condescendingly, tell the fools how to put them on SHOES ...
          For example, Norway spends 95% of GDP at state-owned enterprises, France spends 80% of GDP in the public sector. And in other countries, state-owned enterprises are full. And only in the USA the number of state-owned enterprises does not exceed 1.3%. Mostly working in the defense industry. http://www.pickalov.narod.ru/RCSU.htm
          1. -4
            30 October 2018 13: 25
            Quote: mrark
            THAT THE EFFICIENCY OF THE ENTERPRISE'S WORK DOES NOT REALLY DEPEND ON THE PROPERTY FORM, AND DEPENDS ONLY ON THE QUALITY OF MANAGEMENT WORK.

            The manager in the civil service is not interested in the real development of the enterprise, he is only interested in a good report. The private trader is vitally interested in development.
            1. 0
              30 October 2018 22: 28
              Quote: raw174
              The private trader is vitally interested in development.

              Yes, that’s why private traders cut the latest machines for scrap and sold the area of ​​factories for shopping centers ...
          2. 0
            1 November 2018 10: 36
            Quote: mrark
            For example, Norway spends 95% of GDP in state-owned enterprises, France spends 80% of GDP in the public sector. And in other countries, state-owned enterprises are full. And only in the USA the number of state-owned enterprises does not exceed 1.3%. Mostly working in the defense industry.
            -And now tell me why almost all state-owned enterprises with us are unprofitable ???
        10. +4
          30 October 2018 17: 27
          Quote: raw174
          The Union, with all the achievements, was doomed precisely for economic reasons.

          History did not prove anything of the kind, and neither did the author. The article is based on the statement "in the USSR there was a total deficit of everything." The statement is completely false, so all the conclusions drawn from it are false.
          What is this statement based on? On the only fact - in the USSR, personal cars were not available for mass purchase. This is true. But they were not accessible, not because it was impossible to make them larger. The inaccessibility of mass motorization was laid down in the structure of Soviet cities, which we can now see. A person working in the enterprise does NOT NEED a private car. He WANTS him, but he does not need him!
          Everything else. There was nothing to wear in the USSR? Was there nothing to eat? Nowhere to live? Hehe ... Everything was, and was in abundance. T.N. "deficit" is what a person does not need for life, but what he really wants. The clothes are brighter and different every day. The food is as varied as possible and for every individual taste. Things that emphasize "status", that is, they may be completely useless, but they make you stand out. Etc.
          Old industrial giants have been sharpened to meet basic basic needs. Both countries and economies. The ideology of their application is not bad, it is just for a fundamentally different economic and social model. So they do not fit into the system, in which most of the manufactured product is useless, but bright tinsel. How it was supposed to work ... here a series of articles must be written. Why is it upset? Because they decided so above. Well, etc.
          1. +2
            31 October 2018 15: 50
            All rightly noted. I can only add that the author is trying to consider communist society from the standpoint of capitalism, while using the very meager tools of the latter (although what toolbox is just the empirical position of a person accustomed to comfort). And even if communism was not built in the USSR, it is still a utopia, but it was a guiding beacon, which, as you know, is not an end in itself, but indicates the way to the "bay" (this is also about how fundamental value utopias have) - t .e. to the creation of a society devoid of, there is no property, as most ordinary people might think, but above all the exploitation of one person by another. At the same time, the USSR still existed within the framework of the same economic paradigm as capitalism: the need to form intensive forms of production with high added value (read Wallerstein and his world-systems analysis, I know it is difficult, but useful). Only this surplus value, in contrast to the capitalist formation, was not an end in itself, but was a means of achieving social well-being. Therefore, the author has a dissonance regarding the Soviet factories of giants, seemingly not corresponding to their profits, which, however, easily allowed 1/3 of the globe to live, not to mention those parasites that own them today.
            1. 0
              31 October 2018 22: 22
              You have moved beyond the ordinary site visitor. But neither you nor Wallerstein understand either. The USSR created prosperity, back in the 70. Moreover, he created already by inertia, without the interest of the tops. Damn, here you have to talk and talk, for a very long time it will be ...
              1. -1
                1 November 2018 10: 40
                Quote: Mikhail3
                T.N. "deficit" is what a person does not need for life, but what he really wants. The clothes are brighter and different every day. The food is as varied as possible and for every individual taste. Things that emphasize "status", that is, they may be completely useless, but they make you stand out. Etc.

                - that is, the butter that I brought from Moscow is a status and useless thing? Blue hens in Moscow (who died by their death, unlike Hungarian ones !!!) - was that what was needed for life?
                1. +1
                  3 November 2018 17: 31
                  Quote: your1970
                  Blue hens in Moscow

                  Obscurantism. You go and buy chicken in an expensive organic food store for 1500 rubles / kg; it looks exactly like a blue chicken from the USSR. Because she was not fed with additives and she is stupidly not greasy !!!
                  1. +1
                    3 November 2018 22: 16
                    He’s just lying, don’t be depressed. Bread, sugar, butter were always sold anywhere, under all conditions and circumstances. I lived in the USSR, you too, but about this field marshal, obviously, not everything is so simple ...
                    1. -3
                      3 November 2018 23: 12
                      Quote: Mikhail3
                      Bread, sugar, butter were always sold anywhere

                      So I thought - how long would I have lived on such a diet with my, damn it, a bunch of sores)))

                      And, by the way, you forgot to mention the sausage for some reason (probably by accident). The best, according to GOST of the USSR ... she had one and only drawback - she was not enough.
                      1. +1
                        4 November 2018 09: 38
                        1)
                        Quote: goose
                        Quote: your1970
                        Blue hens in Moscow

                        Obscurantism. You go and buy chicken in an expensive organic food store for 1500 rubles / kg; it looks exactly like a blue chicken from the USSR. Because she was not fed with additives and she is stupidly not greasy !!!
                        - the chicken is self-sufficient. If it is simply not kept in cages - but in the yard, then it will feed itself in a day by processing roots / bugs / any crap that it finds, and if you pour grain to it once a day, it will be indecent. domestic chicken NEVER(!!!!) It will not be blue, but will be well-fed and oily (not like a duck naturally !!).
                        But blue chickens - of the "eco-friendly" type - are the overexposure of poultry farms that can no longer carry and are kept in very cramped cages for further processing ...
                        Believe me, I’ve already slaughtered 60 chickens and 15 ducks this year ....
                        2)
                        Quote: Mikhail3
                        He’s just lying, don’t be depressed. Bread, sugar, butter were always sold anywhere, under all conditions and circumstances. I lived in the USSR, you too, but about this field marshal, obviously, not everything is so simple ...
                        - bread and sugar - yes, but butter - in the presence of our own creamery in our village was not. Margarine was 2 kinds, but there was no butter
                        3)
                        Quote: Consultant
                        And, by the way, you forgot to mention the sausage for some reason (probably by accident). The best, according to GOST of the USSR ... she had one and only drawback - it was not enough.
                        We just had sausage - but, alas, local consumer cooperation and costing 6 (!!!) rubles / kg. Nobody took her because of this ... Why did she cost so much request
                        4)
                        Quote: Mikhail3
                        I lived in the USSR, you too, but as for this field marshal, obviously not everything is so simple
                        "How can you confirm? To say that the role of wrapping paper weighed 960 kg and was a terrible shortage in trade - where did it sell at the price of a weighed commodity? What washcloths did potato nets even in Moscow - I am silent about the periphery? That paper shopping bags could be inflated and slam someone behind? that carbide + a dichlorvos bottle with a hole is really fun? that the tar is chewing on itself, and the cherry resin? that I also liked Gusev?
                        fool fool
                      2. 0
                        6 November 2018 17: 59
                        No, I didn’t forget. You won’t believe it, I remember a lot, but somehow in every single post I don’t describe ALL life in the USSR from top to bottom. And from Adam and Eve I also consider the description to be superfluous. Strange, huh? Apparently should.
                        You see, I can’t be shoved into any cell. I am not a fan of the USSR, and not a hater of it. I always try to follow not a certain platform, but the truth as I understand it. Therefore, I am considering the issue that is available, and not all in a row.
                        There was a question about Soviet factories - I spoke out. There was a question about butter and chickens - spoke out too. They haven’t talked about sausage yet, and I said nothing about it. Ai-ai-ai to me, bad ...
          2. +2
            1 November 2018 10: 39
            Quote: Mikhail3
            T.N. "deficit" is what a person does not need for life, but what he really wants. The clothes are brighter and different every day. The food is as varied as possible and for every individual taste. Things that emphasize "status", that is, they may be completely useless, but they make you stand out. Etc.

            - that is, the butter that I brought from Moscow is a status and useless thing? Blue hens in Moscow (who died by their death, unlike Hungarian ones !!!) - was that what was needed for life?
          3. The comment was deleted.
      2. +8
        30 October 2018 07: 53
        Quote: BecmepH
        I never saw the conclusions. Water is poured into the sea. The article is endless and about nothing. I thought it was Edward Radzinsky writing. Many words, but no thoughts.

        Good article and honest. But not complete. The author was shy. But there is only one conclusion - having created an industrial power where everything really worked, turned and turned around in the USSR, all still continued to use a completely unviable ideology! Moreover, it prevailed over everything and over the economy as well! Not the profitability of enterprises? And how profitable they are if the plan! We need to release 1 TVs for example! This is the plan. And the plan must also be exceeded. Social obligations of the same 000 televisions! Then Komsomol member Petya gets up and says - give 1 television sets! Well, you naturally give everything ... And here comes Ivan Ivanovich, a scientist and inventor ... He came up with a TV better than Japanese ones. Must be implemented! Nuuuuuu nadooooooo ... But this is the purchase of new equipment, to retrain the team ... But what about the plan? And social obligations? And the Komsomol will be upset ... Laughing ?! So you can put a party card on the table! So tens of thousands gathered dust in the Soviet patent repositories and there are hundreds of progressive inventions and proposals ... Well, of course, private property! Those. her complete absence. The economic laws of ideology do not obey.
        1. +6
          30 October 2018 08: 15
          - I absolutely agree with you in all your arguments ...
          It was ideology that caused the collapse of the Union.
          And if instead of ideology we put an honestly earned ruble in addition to wages and sales (and hence the conclusion, QUALITY!), Then we would be China now ...
          Unfortunately, I can put you only one plus sign, but from the heart still +100500
          1. 0
            30 October 2018 08: 38
            Of course. It’s just that the whole communist ideology is built on the denial of private property! In China, only the sign remained from the Communists. And honestly, I don’t want to become China at all. Let us stay in Russia. We will just understand all this and learn not only from our own, but also from other people's mistakes! For a normal life in our country, everything is glory to God!
            1. +2
              30 October 2018 11: 31
              Quote: Detective
              It’s just that the whole communist ideology is built on the denial of private property!

              This error is carefully instilled by the enemies of the USSR and Socialism. Ideology was built on the denial of private property on means of production.
              1. -2
                1 November 2018 10: 44
                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                Quote: Detective
                It’s just that the whole communist ideology is built on the denial of private property!

                This error is carefully instilled by the enemies of the USSR and Socialism. Ideology was built on the denial of private property on means of production.
                Did they lie to us at school in the 80s? At the technical school they also lied on political economy - “That there is no private property in the USSR, but maybe only personal property?” Or were there enemies all around in the USSR?
                fool fool
                1. 0
                  1 November 2018 15: 04
                  > - that is, they lied to us at school in the 80s? at the technical school, they also lied to political economy

                  yes, because the political economy of socialism did not exist, what was taught was a slightly modified political economy of capitalism. While Stalin was alive, he did not allow the publication of this morality

                  But they could not create the political economy of socialism, because the scientific description of the nonequilibrium economy appeared only after the 50s, while the Soviet economy was always nonequilibrium
                2. -1
                  1 November 2018 19: 26
                  Quote: your1970
                  "That in the USSR there is no private property, but maybe only personal?"

                  You are now comparing warm with soft and ultimately choosing green.
                  Carefully re-read what I wrote and leave your stupid arrivals to yourself.
                  And if you start to analyze the concepts of "private" and "personal" property in the light of the realities of the USSR and on the mechanisms of their implementation from the point of view of law, then you, in general, can expect many interesting discoveries.
                  1. 0
                    2 November 2018 12: 39
                    Quote: Rakti-Kali
                    And if you start to analyze the concepts of "private" and "personal" property in the light of the realities of the USSR and on the mechanisms of their implementation from the point of view of law, then you, in general, can expect many interesting discoveries.
                    -You won’t believe I am in the know
                    Quote: Rakti-Kali
                    on mechanisms for their implementation in terms of law,
                    to me and now citizens go with those documents
              2. -1
                2 November 2018 10: 09
                In the USSR, personal, but not private property was recognized.
          2. 0
            30 October 2018 17: 07
            China and quality - you do not confuse anything ?!
        2. +3
          30 October 2018 10: 10
          Do not confuse ideology with intelligence. They gave the fool a glass ... device - he, naturally, broke it. In China, without the CCP and ideology, everything would have fallen apart long ago. It would be no better than a "free and democratic" India.
        3. +3
          30 October 2018 10: 15
          just, the plan gives a breakthrough to industrialization. And in the market, a plan, according to Case, the founder of Kenysianism in the United States, allowed the United States to become a superpower. By the way, I ask you to write, what factories of domestic TVs do you know today? What are the factories of domestic washing machines? Tomorrow, literally, they will turn off the SFIFT bank payment system, import manufacturers will be called back, WHAT will you produce and where? And you will be banned from selling imports.
          1. 0
            30 October 2018 10: 24
            I beg your pardon ...
            And in the United States there are American factories and brands of televisions, washing machines?
            About the auto industry I agree to 100.
            1. +1
              30 October 2018 10: 48
              And yes ....
              Why 70% AMERICAN goods written by maid in China?
              1. -1
                30 October 2018 15: 49
                Quote: Ace of Diamonds
                And yes ....
                Why is 70% of AMERICAN goods written in maid in Chin?

                Because high-tech products are more profitable to do than to work with your hands. Therefore, Boeings are doing in Seattle, and calculators in Chardzhou. USA is finance, Silicon Valley, weapons and space. This is a piece but expensive item.
                1. 0
                  30 October 2018 17: 16
                  Tokmo was not created by the hands of true, native Americans (Indians), and not even by those who now call themselves Native Americans ... (... phew ... generally some kind of nonsense ...), and not even by the brains of newly made Americans. ..
                  Indians, Chinese, Russians, those who could not find application for their ideas and knowledge in their own country work for the American technical system.
                  At least for this I am grateful to America that even there these nuggets have found their true value. And in their homeland, yacht holders did not need them, because the yacht holder should spoil the well-being and power of their homeland ...
                2. 0
                  1 November 2018 10: 52
                  Quote: Semen1972
                  Quote: Ace of Diamonds
                  And yes ....
                  Why is 70% of AMERICAN goods written in maid in Chin?

                  Because high-tech products are more profitable to do than to work with your hands. Therefore, Boeings are doing in Seattle, and calculators in Chardzhou. USA is finance, Silicon Valley, weapons and space. This is a piece but expensive item.
                  - and if tomorrow China ceases to supply its own NOT high-tech product? What will the United States do if there is no production?
                  Wear Boeings instead of pants?
      3. -1
        30 October 2018 19: 12
        we simply did not go through the stage of transforming the peasant mentality into a city-civil one.
        this can be seen in Peter and the Len region or the defense industry towns and nearby rural residents.
        ONLY K2025-30 DEPARTURE FROM AFFAIRS (PENSION OR DEATH) GENERATIONS WHICH BEFORE SEEN:
        PLANT WITH CUCUMBERS THAN GRAPES,
        Udder of cows with salami
        RUBBER BOOTS FOR WALKS ON RAW GRASS (NO ASPHALT - EVERYWHERE IN THE GRASS VILLAGE) - A DEPARTMENT STORE IN THE AREA OF THE CENTER
        AND ANOTHER 30 PP I CAN attribute.
        THEN IN THE SUBCONSCIOUSNESS WILL BE AT THE BIRTH OF ANY "BUSINESS-ENTERPRISE" --------- PROFIT, AND NOT ------- ANY PRICE WARM TOILET AND CENTER HEATING. The state did not have other goals. only this one. profit is the next stage.
        the author does not know this? and other commentators?
        the goals of all Eurasia from Alexander 2 (and its neighboring emperors, China, India, Persians, Porta, Thailand, Tibet, Croatia), we saw and have not passed this stage now.
        and the West will fail under us after 2050-70, their nations will degenerate. WILL BE WEAKER THAN YOUNG AND NOT HEATED.
        CYCLICITY.
      4. +2
        31 October 2018 01: 38
        Donetsk.
        The author is misleading everyone. He constantly repeats "industrial giants", and is angry about the lack of consumer goods and food. Industrial giants brewed steel, built machine tools and other INDUSTRIAL, non-consumer, product. A third of the world's aircraft fleet was Soviet-made, and if it were not for the assassination of the USSR in 1991, then by 2000 their share would have been 40%, because new aircraft models were very competitive ... By 2000-2002 ... the USSR would have had 10 aircraft carriers, and the total tonnage of surface ships would have been equal to the US Navy (this is bare statistics - the last 10-15 years before the death, we were on a par with the United States in the construction and commissioning of surface ships), despite the fact that the number of nuclear submarines, we surpassed them by one and a half times for 1988 - 1990 ...
        The military-industrial complex is a mirror of the economy, with a weak, imperfect and non-competitive economy, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have 22 - 25% of world GDP.
        But the author obstinately presses on "the stores were empty"! But who is to blame for this? Industrial giants? Manufacturing world-class products? AND ABOVE this level! Who was able to repeat Ruslan, Mriya, Mi-26?
        Consumer hunger was created by the Soviet Government itself, led by the Communist Party. It was it who made sure that the light industry produced dull guano. So that the country does not have enough household tape recorders (!!!), color televisions and furniture (!). From the height of the past years and life experience, we now look with amazement at this "managerial impotence", which was nothing more than bringing the people to despondency, feelings of "inferiority", backwardness, "inferiority" before the surrender of the country to its primordial enemies.
        Communist bosses wanted to become bourgeois. AND STEEL!
        The entire deficit was artificial.
        To produce everything that we lacked, it was necessary not even to "order", but to ALLOW! This is how Stalin's socialism was organized, under which (by the beginning of the 50s) an abundance of commodities was achieved with a sufficiently high quality. And consumer goods were produced not by "giants", but by cooperatives and private traders (furniture, ateliers, shoe workshops and factories, production of receivers and the first televisions), even such world-famous firms (KB) as KB Mil and KB Kamov began their activities as two cooperatives ...
        1. +1
          31 October 2018 02: 16
          Donetsk.
          ... under the single roof of a former furniture factory.
          Stalin created a multi-structured (!) Economy, in which the consumer market was largely given to cooperatives / private traders, because they feel consumer trends better, react to them faster and more diversely. 15-17% of the GDP of the Stalinist USSR accounted for cooperatives and private traders. The level of income of qualified specialists in the USSR in 1953 exceeded that of many developed European countries. We were really envied. Including British miners. A Donetsk miner, having received a salary and an annual bonus, could leave money for the family's monthly meals, go and buy a Pobeda car in the salon (! Skip the line!). Of course, not everyone bought - they spent on something else, they built houses ... it's a pity that it didn't last long. Khrushchev, with his reforms, brought down the welfare of Soviet citizens at times! Under Brezhnev, the standard of living did not grow ... but many social benefits became available. Salaries and tariff scales have not changed for decades, and the prices of goods (televisions, refrigerators, cars, furniture) were growing ... This was sabotage of the party elite. From 1955 to 1991 the country was being prepared for capitulation and redistribution of property in favor of the new bourgeoisie. It was a betrayal. Treason. Sabotage. The Soviet Union could ensure a high standard of living for Soviet citizens, but the authorities did not want this, keeping the people in a "black body". Stalin's killers thought only of their PRIVILEGES.
          Their activity was malicious towards the people and they achieved their goal. This does not apply to the entire Soviet elite, its Trotskyist core - a cohesive force affiliated with Western control centers.
          It is they who are now swinging the society into rebellion on the eve of the almost inevitable war, sabotaging the development and tyranny of the people with new taxes and pension reforms.
          Putin is now much harder than Stalin ...
        2. -2
          31 October 2018 08: 26
          He constantly repeats "industrial giants", and is angry about the lack of consumer goods and food. Industrial giants brewed steel, built machine tools and other


          They were required making money for the country
          But they were provided and worked "very well", but there was no money for the production / purchase of consumer goods. All the money went to "strategic factories."

          If enough money had been allocated, then there would have been no problems with the production of consumer goods

          But a poor country, in fact, was spending all the money on the mega-industry ...
          And the "giants" yes - they cooked steel until it finally got everyone sick ...
          Then they stopped cooking it.
          1. +1
            31 October 2018 11: 51
            Donetsk.
            You are apparently too young and not sufficiently educated. The Soviet Union possessed FULL SOVEREIGNTY. Including the issue of its own currency (which Russia, alas, does not have), therefore money - credit funds, have always been in sufficient quantity. In addition, there was a division into a non-cash ruble - lending to the economy, payments for products and industrial cooperation between enterprises, and a cash ruble that was paid salaries and settled in stores.
            The money was deliberately "underinvest" in the production of consumer goods, private and cooperative entrepreneurship was banned (since the time of Khrushchev), and for this "guilds" and speculators (parasitizing on the deficit) were tried. What is needed to make beautiful clothes, shoes, and other consumer goods appear? ALLOW IT TO BE PRODUCED! But they were punished for it. Do you really think that the country that launched rockets into space could not have sewn good boots?
            And steel was poured, as well as poured, competing on equal terms with the whole world.
      5. +2
        3 November 2018 16: 04
        Quote: BecmepH
        I never saw the conclusions

        The author is an amateur in economics and history. And the logic is lame. Draws incorrect conclusions from false assumptions.
        All data is available:
        1. Equalization and liquidation of a multistructure economy since the time of Khrushchev. The experience of Perestroika in returning to this model led to a new NEP.
        2. Material assistance to foreign countries, as a rule, is free of charge. She was really VERY big.
        4. Unequal exchange among CMEA members by price manipulation. - It was a hidden support for the economies of the Eastern Bloc countries due to the overpricing of their goods. The same practice was within the USSR, where the main beneficiaries were the Baltic republics and Georgia. This led to the collapse of domestic consumption, which led to a small demand for electronics and other consumer goods. There was no demand, except in industry.
        4. Duplication of technological and scientific work within the CMEA. In the West, de facto, there was a unification with 1-2 competitors. Excessive isolation of the scientific environment, which led to the inhibition of scientific work.
        5. Scientific isolation. The USSR was forced to drag science equal to the rest of the world (which was not under Stalin, by the way)
        6. Non-disproportionate relative to GDP supply of social benefits of national republics.
        7. Some numerical bias in terms of the size of the armed forces.
        8. In the late USSR, excessive bias in the field of development of Culture and Art. Comparable to the cost of all science. (In the US, the cost of science has always been many times higher than the cost of art).

        All other reasons look either insignificant or far-fetched.
        Note, the redundancy of pensions, benefits, medicine, education and social spending is not mentioned here, because there was a real return on them in terms of building a society.
    2. 0
      5 November 2018 21: 35
      Soviet giant plants are not profitable? It depends on what the author means. Gas, ZIL, AZLK? Let him tell the owners of Norilsk Nickel about the loss-making of their company.
  2. -1
    30 October 2018 06: 15
    Maybe it’s not the impossibility of saturating the market with consumer goods, but the flaw of the system itself, which denies (incompletely) private property and restricts people's normal desire to live as comfortably as possible.
    1. +2
      30 October 2018 06: 49
      Maybe it's not the impossibility of saturating the market with consumer goods and the inferiority of the system itself.

      belay belay

      Eco my friend you struck the philosophy ....
      1. +9
        30 October 2018 07: 09
        Well, here it’s not philosophy, but quite a healthy thought! Before Khrushchev, the artels successfully coped with the saturation of the market with consumer goods, supplying the domestic market with exactly what was considered a by-product of the giants' factories. In the late USSR, they tried to return to this through cooperatives, but alas, the concept itself was perverted ....
      2. +2
        30 October 2018 07: 20
        Autumn predisposes to the philosophical mentality)))) more A.S. Pushkin noticed.
    2. +5
      30 October 2018 11: 36
      Quote: Conductor
      the bitterness of the system itself, which denies (incompletely) private property and limits the normal desire of people to live as comfortably as possible

      And that socialism denied private property and people's desire to live as comfortably as possible! ?? And to prove this powerful statement, will you?
  3. +2
    30 October 2018 06: 21
    like an article in a kindergarten pot ...
    "I am a free artist, I see it this way" ...
  4. +5
    30 October 2018 07: 14
    It was possible to reform industry, but no one wanted to. Instead, they decided to kill her for the sake of liberal reforms. We produced ships and planes, exported everything, produced machine tools, and also exported them. And the equipment was released and also exported. To look at the situation as a whole, one does not have to pounce on giants, one has to look at everything in a complex. Maybe plans for deindustrialization were needed, China is doing this, destroying obsolete factories. So I personally looked at perestroika as a disaggregation of a number of enterprises and giving people the right to initiative, industrial first of all. And then they turned the evon, all for sale and offshore. Our economy was primarily a victim of geopolitics, and then everything else.
    1. +3
      30 October 2018 07: 53
      We produced ships and airplanes, exported it all, manufactured machines and also exported them. And the equipment was released and also exported. To look at the situation as a whole, it is not necessary to gang up on the giants,


      We produced a lot and exported a lot, but in the provincial shops of the RSFSR it was a rolling ball.

      And the flagships of the Soviet industry have always been in a special position and especially in financing
      and re-equipment of new equipment and provision of various housing and other social services there ...
      1. +1
        30 October 2018 08: 51
        Quote: Olezhek
        We produced a lot and exported a lot, but in the provincial shops of the RSFSR it was a rolling ball.

        -----------------------
        To do this, we had our own market in the form of CMEA, which produced everything. In the provincial stores was everything, but very outdated. The USSR did not consider the marketing profession to be necessary, so there were plenty of solid draped coats, but very heavy and monotonous. As well as shoes that are 5-7 years late. The deficit in many positions was artificially inflated. In addition, we spent a lot on geopolitics. Egypt for the tanks probably still owes us, because jeans and shirts are not commensurate with the cost of weapons. In addition, you do not consider the monetary system, it was closed. There are many factors. And now our government is dragging people’s money offshore, spending on image projects, spending on luxury. This is even worse than a giant with a workforce. The strangest thing is that the giants did not produce what they really needed, for example, polypropylene granules, only now they began to make them. Large diameter pipes are also much more. The inhibition of their own computerization also affected. Many factors, I repeat, you are not considering. In addition, funds swelled in long-term construction, hence the current love of large projects.
        1. 0
          30 October 2018 09: 21
          In the provincial stores were all, but very outdated

          belay

          You really shook me ...
          1. +1
            30 October 2018 10: 48
            Quote: Olezhek
            In the provincial stores were all, but very outdated

            belay

            You really shook me ...

            ---------------------
            Why? We had garments from the Gorky and local factories, and there were fabrics, albeit a very meager assortment. Shoes were also, but so-so, but they were. Naked did not go. Coats with beaver collars were suits gray and brown, too.
          2. 0
            30 October 2018 17: 22
            I will say more - now with great pleasure I would have bought the very "outdated" boots made of genuine leather, which were then gathering dust on the shelves of shoe stores - no one wanted to buy them. But now there are no such words at all.
            What we have - we do not store, having lost - weep. (with)
            1. +1
              1 November 2018 10: 58
              Quote: Polymer
              I will say more - now with great pleasure I would have bought the very "outdated" boots made of genuine leather, which were then gathering dust on the shelves of shoe stores - no one wanted to buy them. But now there are no such words at all.
              What we have - we do not store, having lost - weep. (with)
              - ready to sell the rest from father NEW boots (2 pairs) and sandals - all releases 1981 of the year...
              Only you can’t wear them - very thick rough skin, poor pad and poor tailoring
              1. -1
                1 November 2018 16: 27
                And what for? The size? what
                1. +1
                  2 November 2018 12: 40
                  44, sandals 43
                  1. 0
                    2 November 2018 15: 43
                    I will take sandals at a reasonable price. Shoes are too big.
        2. +7
          30 October 2018 10: 35
          We had Kazakhstan Semipalatinsk nearby (I am from Altai). We went there for groceries and fun. There really was in every product, even in a village store. You call in the RSFSR and in huge department stores empty shelves.
          1. The comment was deleted.
      2. 0
        30 October 2018 12: 13
        Quote: Olezhek
        We produced a lot and exported a lot, but in the provincial shops of the RSFSR it was a rolling ball.

        Something with this "rolling ball", we had no imports at home, except for tape cassettes.
    2. -4
      30 October 2018 08: 27
      Quote: Altona
      It was possible to reform industry, but no one wanted to.

      Sure! But the USSR had to repeat abandoning ideology! There is the truth of life, there is a master - did - brought to the market - sold - part put into action (improved something, did more, hired an assistant ...), part for life, etc. But there is an ideology that denies this scheme, etc. e. private property itself and naturally the market in its normal understanding ... And then what ?! Enthusiasm! Komsomol construction sites! Labor armies certainly help! Here you have the industrial giants (for foreign help, tactfully keep silent ...). But all this must work, be produced and sold! Well, the social camp to help - buy at a cheap price! And the competition? What about the progress? What about improving life? So then ... By the way, it was precisely on this USSR that all Poland should also have remained so that they had only recently paid! We drove energy resources to this socialist camp and also cheaply below market prices and built factories, railways, ports ... Almost for nothing! What is natural does not correspond to any economic laws and expediency. And they gave us all their consumer goods, cigarettes, pepper, cucumbers ... And then the energy prices collapsed, but there weren’t any cucumbers ... And the USSR stayed and fed all these parasites! This is how it is not so good when you subordinate the economy to ideology!
      1. 0
        30 October 2018 09: 15

        Detective (Igor)
        Quote: Altona
        It was possible to reform industry, but no one wanted to.

        Sure! But the USSR had to repeat abandoning ideology!

        China has not abandoned ideology.
        1. -3
          30 October 2018 10: 55
          Quote: populist
          China has not abandoned ideology.

          And that China I do not understand ?! Built communism or is building up?
          1. -1
            30 October 2018 12: 15
            Quote: Detective
            Built communism or is building up?

            Builds. According to their philosophy, their "golden age" will come in 20 years.
      2. -1
        30 October 2018 16: 14
        I confirm the USSR it was possible and necessary to modernize. To solve this problem, it was necessary to separate the apparatus from economic management, to leave the party to ideology. In order to manage, it is necessary to distinguish the cause from the effect, the differential from the integral and know the properties of positive and negative feedback.
      3. +1
        30 October 2018 21: 11
        So they refused and everything immediately collapsed.
      4. 0
        2 November 2018 17: 43
        Quote: Detective
        But the USSR had to repeat abandoning ideology!

        Strongly against it! it was necessary to develop an ideology. Refusal of ideology is fraught with the collapse of the country. ANY.
    3. +3
      30 October 2018 10: 19
      In China, the twin of our auto giant, ZIL, was built. This year, this Chinese giant gives 54 billion dollars in turnover. We have demolished ZIL, they will build a shopping center for the sale of Chinese consumer goods. And so on throughout the economy.
    4. The comment was deleted.
      1. 0
        30 October 2018 10: 57
        nothing was produced in Russia!


        belay
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. -1
          30 October 2018 11: 46
          Here's what I like because it is the statements of people who pay attention to external attributes, slogans and ideology for the masses! The masses are not everything! Constantly and on any occasion citing China as an example, as a "prosperous" communist power, commentators who are doing this for some reason slyly keep silent about the fact that China ranks first in the world in the number of dollar billionaires! Russia takes only the honorable 6th place! And at the same time, China is the country with the greatest inequality and social stratification in society. And those who praise China need to inquire about the poverty line there! The statistics in China, especially on this issue, remain generally closed, but the CCP has to talk about something. So this is the threshold of 1 US dollar! If a person has to live on less than $ 1 a day, then he is a poor man in China. More recently, this threshold was 55 cents. By comparison, in the world, extreme poverty, not poverty, is considered a life of $ 1,9 a day. And the pension in China, just in case, I will inform you, exclusively for employees of state institutions and then ... Is that what the communist conquests are ?!
          1. 0
            2 November 2018 17: 48
            Quote: Detective
            For comparison, in the world, extreme poverty, not poverty, is considered to be $ 1,9 a day.

            In that fact, the greatness of the USSR did not know hunger. clothes and housing were. There was very little luxury, yes. But it was possible to leave for any city, go to the factory, get a job and get a hostel and a queue for housing.
        3. -1
          30 October 2018 11: 59
          They now, sitting without pants in their own Independence, believe in it. laughing
      2. +6
        30 October 2018 11: 17
        Russia did not produce anything
        ?? fool
        Ulyanovsk Aircraft Plant, KNAAPO, Rostov Helicopter, Moscow Helicopter. Severodvinsk shipbuilding, 5 shipbuilding in St. Petersburg, Severodvinsk, Sormovo, Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Nakhodka, Rybinsk ... Shipyards - do not count ... Nizhny Tagil. The electronic belt of Russia - Rostov, Taganrog, Rybinsk Instrument-Making (there are still residential buildings in the city, presented to factory workers by astronauts). Yes, you never know there were these instrument-making!
        You are probably a young man, they said rashly. Take a look at the story. Did almost everything. and in sufficient quantities. in Russia
        1. The comment was deleted.
      3. +1
        30 October 2018 11: 44
        Quote: Imobile
        Ships and aircraft were manufactured in Ukraine, Equipment in Latvia,

        You probably do not know, so I will allow myself to tell you this shocking information, you see, before 1991 there was no Ukraine and Latvia, but there were Ukrainian Soviet Socialist and Latvian Soviet Socialist republics within the USSR. What is the USSR, google it yourself, I assure you are waiting for just amazing discoveries about "Belarus", "Tajikistan", "Lituv" and many more modern countries.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      4. +3
        30 October 2018 11: 46
        Are you crazy? VAZ, ZIL, KAMAZ, tractors (Vladimr, Lipetsk, Chelyabinsk, Kirovsky plant), radio electronics from Zelenograd, Berdsk, almost all defense companies that made equipment for the army in the RSFSR produced household radio equipment,), example 70- 80s Khabarovsk: "Daldizel", "Energomash", "Amurkabel", enamelware plant, oil refinery named after Ordzhonikidee, Amurstal and so on, I don’t remember everything now, garment factories ... SORRY CRAZY if you wrote something like that in Nothing was produced in Russia
        1. The comment was deleted.
      5. 0
        30 October 2018 12: 02
        All aircraft so-called. Ukraine’s products are from Antonov’s design bureau in Kiev, all the rest of the production (thousands of them) were, anywhere, but not in Ukraine, while the plants located outside the RSFSR like Tbilisi or Tashkent, which now makes door locks, and IL-76 only in Russia produces, gave products of extremely low quality. However, even in Tashkent the Russians worked in the factories, while the locals sat in the markets.
  5. -3
    30 October 2018 07: 14
    Here the role of the military-industrial complex is underestimated. All over the world, as it is now in the Russian Federation, it makes profit from selling products abroad, and we actually gave away weapons to popular democracies for bad loans in exchange for loyalty. And the military-industrial complex is almost 40% of Soviet industry. The Soviet economy was ineffective, the author wrote correctly. In a strong economy, people do not stand in line for sausages. In the 30s, when it was urgent to prepare for war, to create a heavy industry, this inefficiency was still bearable, and the material claims of people were more modest. And already in the 50s, the structure of the economy had to be changed, more private initiative given, encouraged the development of cooperatives, artels, private business loans to private owners. But of course, this did not fit into the communist ideology. So they got what they got.
    1. +3
      30 October 2018 07: 19
      In the 30s, when it was necessary to urgently prepare for war, to create a heavy industry, this inefficiency was still tolerable, and the material claims of people were more modest. And already in 50's


      They lived not very much under Stalin, but this outrage with the complete absence of goods on the shelves in peacetime was not there.
      1. +2
        30 October 2018 08: 40
        Well, it is logical, under Stalin, the plant, or a large state. The project started while they are building, it only consumes. When Khrushchev finished and debugged. Now the object of income brings. Thank you, Comrade. Khrushchev! The fact that the process would have been completed without it, and maybe with better indicators, for example, there is an analysis that if it were not for the collapse of the production of building materials, the moron Khrushchev with his hruscheby, the whole Union could be settled in separate apartments already in 70 .

        The peasant planted this bread and saw how it grows, and people realize very badly processes across the country that last for years. Actually it is precisely from this that many still consider Khrushch to be some benefactor, under which, more or less, have healed.
        1. +1
          30 October 2018 10: 50
          Quote: EvilLion
          that if it were not for the collapse of the production of building materials, the moron Khrushch with his khrushchebs

          Have you ever wondered when Khrushchev managed to build a DSK, develop house designs, etc.?
          Apparently, it all started not with the filing of Nikita Sergeevich!
          Yes, in those years, "Khrushchev" were GOOD!
          1. +1
            30 October 2018 12: 04
            Even by modern standards, mansions are just stalin lines.

            And what about Khrushch and in particular the construction https://www.nakanune.ru/articles/17756/
            1. -1
              2 November 2018 10: 20
              But how many of these stalins were built?
    2. +5
      30 October 2018 07: 22
      Under Stalin, consumer surgery was quite developed, but Khrushchev killed her.
      1. +2
        30 October 2018 07: 28
        Under Stalin, consumerism was quite developed, but Khrushchev killed her.


        The furnace owners provide ... what does it mean ... to break the furnace !!!
      2. 0
        2 November 2018 10: 20
        You confuse with promo-operation. Consumer cooperation developed under both Khrushchev and Brezhnev.
    3. 0
      2 November 2018 17: 55
      Quote: Rimlianin
      give more private initiative, encourage the development of cooperatives, artels, give private owners a commercial loan. But of course, this did not fit with the communist ideology. So they got what they got.

      I do not agree. There were enough more stores like Torgsin of the 30s and a planning system that honestly takes into account import demand. In addition, the comprehensive development of Ideology was necessary, and not its freezing.
  6. +2
    30 October 2018 07: 31
    But Stalin, yes, sometimes not enough ...

    Named the cause of flooding floating with "Admiral Kuznetsov" in Murmansk


    And Lazar Kaganovich too

    "Each accident has a name, surname and position"

    Recall that in the water area of ​​the Kola Bay near Murmansk, the floating dock PD-50 sank, in which the aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov was under repair. The aircraft carrier itself, according to preliminary data, is not damaged, but four people were injured during the incident.
    1. -1
      30 October 2018 16: 12
      Quote: Olezhek
      And Lazar Kaganovich too

      Kaganovich and now heaps. They have all the money.
  7. +1
    30 October 2018 07: 56
    Mdaaa ... how to understand the "compote" that the Author dumped on the VO page? And is it necessary? request It's one thing: a "meeting" of a small male company in the kitchen on a "weekend" .... here lengthy arguments "about everything and nothing" are appropriate ... only, first, you need to give everyone a good shot! Then the initiator of the company monotonously "philosophizes", and the members of the sabantuychik do not care: what is the radio, what is "philosophizing" ... if only the vodka does not end and does not fall asleep before this moment! Well, okay ... whoever wants, he will find in the "compote" the answer to the eternal Russian question: "who is to blame?" ... and where is the answer to another ....: "what to do?" ? Well, the Author said a bottle (and maybe a couple ...) of good cognac "about what was bad ..." And what's the point? "Don't talk about love! Everything has already been said about it! ..." Should I have "changed it in the 50s"? It is necessary .... would! But History has no subjunctive mood!
  8. +5
    30 October 2018 08: 28
    Here the question can be posed differently, was it possible to reform the whole system of endless whining and demands from the center of resources that developed after Stalin's death? Not at the level of individual factories, but at the level of entire republics. Modern yachts of oligarchs cost Russia much cheaper than pulling out of dung heaps of "brotherly peoples" who only hate Russians for this.

    There was a shortage in the RSFSR, for some reason everything was in the republics. Because they drove there, and from there, sorry.

    The problem of strategic enterprises and large industries in general is that if you close a loss-making plant for 10 people, then people will not go anywhere. They will have to eat something in the same way, and it is easier and cheaper to subsidize a unprofitable enterprise, so that people at least do not mess around, than to clean up the consequences. At my side here in the late 80s the Tatar nuclear power plant was abandoned. The Kama Polyany settlement has already appeared, but the construction has not been completed. The result is just a black hole on the map, like Shelezyak's planet, no work, nothing. Okay, Kamskie glades are negligible compared to neighboring Nizhnekamsk and Chistopol, and these cities are within reach of bus rides, so that the population had the opportunity to work in them, and what to do for those with a population of thousands. 50, and the next big ones, like in Vysotsky's song "forward 500, back 500"?

    To solve the problems, in the first place, it was necessary to remove the equalization introduced by Nikitka Gomosekovich Khrushch. So that people have a direct connection in the head with their level of life and productivity.
    1. 0
      2 November 2018 17: 59
      Quote: EvilLion
      So that people have in their head a direct connection between their standard of living and productivity.

      Now do you think there is such a connection? especially in power? People just do not understand the nature of money!
  9. +2
    30 October 2018 08: 46
    By the way, when there was a Crisis in the west, all these fannies and General Motors behaved the same way. And in the same way the American state behaved in relation to them. The offices were confident that they would be saved at any cost, in order to avoid more serious problems, and the government really saved them at any cost.

    As far as I know, the air carriers in the world are also permanently in a pre-bankrupt state, but they are not allowed to cover themselves, apparently, so that they could pull the aviation industry and transport them. But by themselves, air travel in the world, apparently unprofitable.
  10. +8
    30 October 2018 08: 49
    The author does not completely own the topic. An incredibly complex question trying to reduce to their personal feelings. And the publication of this article is a big minus for the editors of the Military Review.
    1. +3
      30 October 2018 10: 11
      An incredibly difficult question trying to reduce to your personal feelings


      At least the author tried to highlight this rather interesting question.
      The most difficult books sometimes need to be taken off the shelf
    2. +3
      30 October 2018 11: 19
      The author does not completely own the topic. An incredibly complex question trying to reduce to their personal feelings. And the publication of this article is a big minus for the editors of the Military Review.

      + 100500 !!!!
  11. +3
    30 October 2018 08: 55
    but in the same US cheap "Fords"


    Here it is appropriate to recall how Ford made an abnormally high salary at its factories, which began to pull salary up the country as a whole, to the indignation of colleagues in the dangerous business of exploiting workers, Ford replied: “You need someone to buy my cars ". Maybe, of course, a legend, but demonstrates thinking outside the boundaries of his factory.

    In fairness, the cars of those years are extremely primitive, a cart with a motor, and safety requirements, which, in principle, exclude cheapness, did not exist yet. Well, in the United States, the level of urbanization at the beginning of the 20th century was already higher than in the USSR after the War. Actually, in the 60-70s, the USSR exported "Muscovites" quite well, up to half of the output, its own market was not yet developed.

    And then he grew up, or rather people grew to the point that it would be nice to have a "Muscovite", but better to have a "Zhiguli".
    1. +3
      30 October 2018 09: 04
      In fairness, the cars of those years are extremely primitive, a cart with a motor


      Like this, but it was before the PRC - then the level of technology was completely different than today ...
      And we have all this postponed to much later times ...


      how Ford made abnormally high salary in its factories,


      Henry Ford is an interesting, albeit ambiguous man.

      but unambiguously - an effective manager - you can't argue here - "trail codifier", as they say.

      Tov. Ford
      Man and .... effective manager
    2. 0
      2 November 2018 18: 07
      they say a lot about Ford. And he gave tithes in the church, and painted dark corners and doors with white paint, but he also built Fordson - a massive tractor that replaced horses. And in my opinion is he the father of the conveyor?
  12. +2
    30 October 2018 08: 59
    Europe, the world’s two, was literally plowed up, but by the 60 years, and there, the car became quite accessible to almost everyone.


    And this, by the way, is just the result of the wars, they sharply pushed forward the construction of factories for the production of machines, and after the wars this all turned to a civilian. In the US, telephones in the 50s have become widespread, since during the years of WWII there was a lot of mass production. power for the production of electronics brought.
  13. +4
    30 October 2018 09: 11
    In the form of criticism. I have already written and will write again - Soviet industry did not set itself the goal of competing with the West. The production of goods and services needed by the country and society, the employment of the population, the reserve in the event of defense and mobilization - that's all. These are the current ones who perceive the country as a pimp for their goods (and praising it) - "take" us sooner !!!
    About the deficit. Yes, the USSR was defeated, first of all, by the rally of the trade mafia and a layer of bureaucrats - special services (such as the current Kremlin ones). It was they who created an artificial shortage, clogging up the bases and dumps with rotting goods, and organized a trade blockade of large cities (we remember people in civilian clothes with "crusts" at checkpoints, slowing down and deploying transport with food!). The most "revered" and pretentious holidays in the country were: the day of the Chekist and the day of the huckster. Neither MAY 9 (the late Soviet "day of old people"), nor MAY 1 (official officialdom expelling people from the long-awaited spring sadoogorodos) are incomparable in terms of the level of overbearing significance.
    Actually for the goods. Sausages, by the way, there were three varieties (of course, all have their own peculiarities) - "liverukha", boiled tea and cervelat (never tried it, probably was expensive). In the region, the assortment of goods was even greater. Well, as for the capital, you understand .... And only in the late 80s everything suddenly disappeared, why - I wrote above.
    Surprisingly, buying a car at the time in the village was not a problem at all. There was a problematic choice - constipation, a Muscovite or a cornfield (there, really, not everything is clear). It was probably such a desperate but clumsy attempt to slow down the scattering rural population.
  14. +3
    30 October 2018 09: 14
    Well, it was inspired by the spirit of perestroika .... but the author is right in fact ... they didn’t rebuild - that means they couldn’t ... or there was no point ... China modernized its economy with Western money, built on Soviet ..., the Chinese turned out to be smart guys. The author is trying to justify the Soviet and party leadership ..., here we can say for sure - guilty, a similar situation was with the US Auto Giants in 2008-10 all of their social programs were closed ... and they were, the state bought them .... they drowned out the social fire .... Unfortunately after the death of Stalin (well, what could have happened without him) the Soviet leadership and the beginnings of Soviet economic science simply degraded .... he was incredulous and cunning, left loopholes, even the NEP didn’t completely turn off) Khrushchev’s experiments, a return to the dogmas of orthodox Marxism ... made it impossible to save the industrial giants ... there was no one to save them ...
    1. 0
      2 November 2018 18: 22
      Quote: wooja
      the father of nations was incredulous and cunning

      the father of nations was not interested in individual labor. He was interested in observing and educating a Soviet, ordinary, literate person with a developed sense of the social significance of his actions. The percentage of private cooperatives would be higher, but there were not enough people at construction sites. They did not understand him. And now too.
  15. +3
    30 October 2018 09: 15
    How to work in the factories still turns out, but seriously earn - not very. And this is despite the fact that, as has already been said, they have thrown off all the “social programs” long ago.


    And I would not say, moreover, just the opposite. Where there is a large and rich enterprise, there and in the city everything is clean and well-maintained. I have a huge difference here between our factory polyclinic, where everything is new and there are no problems with medicines, and city hospitals with cracking walls. I had to go to 2016 for a fairly serious examination, but without any questions, they did not take a penny, neither for the examination, nor for the medicines. Park in the city organized? What is the expense? That's right, enterprises provide assistance. By itself, the municipal budget can not do anything. Especially since he still lives with taxes. And if there are no major local payers, then all that remains is to beg for regional, or even federal levels.
    1. +1
      30 October 2018 09: 23
      Where there is a large and rich enterprise, there and in the city everything is clean and comfortable.


      We have it for example UMMC ...
      But Uralvagon or Chelyabinsk Metallurgical Plant - the examples are slightly opposite.
      1. +1
        30 October 2018 10: 08
        The difference can be huge even within the same organization, which is naturally surrounded by a single fence, but has different productions. I actually have 3 tire factories behind one fence, one new one, that I don’t know exactly there, 2 is still Soviet (one shop is old Soviet machines that will not be changed for a long time, since they have long been repulsed by investing in them they can be sold cheaply, and through 50 meters a new robotic complex, which is productive, but now it is necessary to beat the investment in it X)), and as far as I know, cost-effectiveness analyzes show that 70% of profit comes from cargo tires. I may be wrong, but perhaps this arises simply because for freight carriers, rubber is a direct means of production and earnings, and they are less inclined to be greedy than motorists.

        Back in the beginning of 2000, I saw examples of workshops that work for export and which, for example, produce semi-finished products, which will go further. The difference is striking in the operator.

        Something tells me that the UVZ tank production, which the T-90 supplies for dollars, lives better than the carload production.
    2. 0
      3 November 2018 07: 27
      Quote: EvilLion
      Where there is a large and rich enterprise, everything is clean and comfortable in the city and there.

      heavy industry with minimal profitability gives a huge animated effect
  16. +4
    30 October 2018 09: 17
    You know, just looking at the modern "former Soviet flagships" that have remained afloat, an ugly suspicion about the true economic efficiency of the Soviet industrial system creeps in.
    This can be explained by only one thing: Industrial giants were tightly integrated into the planned economy, i.e. capacity utilization 100%, product sales 100%. With this mode of operation of the enterprise, respectively, even with a social burden, the cost of production fit into the calculated indicators. In a market economy, one can only dream of 100% sales at 100% load, and fixed costs remain constant and when distributed to a smaller volume of products, they lead to higher prices. Voila - the company becomes unprofitable. And if management is still not clean at hand, then the khan will quickly come to the company, withdrawal and embezzlement of funds is not good for the industrial enterprise.
    1. -1
      30 October 2018 09: 25
      Industrial giants were tightly integrated into the planned economy, i.e. capacity utilization 100%


      Sorry of course, but this is not the case in industry in principle.
  17. +5
    30 October 2018 09: 21
    With his article, the author tries to reinforce the conventional wisdom about the fallacy of the Soviet economic model due to its inefficiency. The system of evidence is primitive, but the goal justifies it - the majority of the audience perceives it lightly. "People hawala", in short. In fact, this is the same as comparing a plowman and an IT specialist. Who is more efficient? Now look globally. Of the existing world economic systems: who made a bet on the material sector of the economy, and who on the global control of virtual financial instruments with their numerous derivatives and cash flow management for their own benefit?
  18. +4
    30 October 2018 09: 27
    I would like to answer the author immediately to the question that sounded in the title of the article. Could Soviet industry be reformed?
    Clever - it was possible.
    Gorbachev is not allowed.
    He spoke once and I will say it again - the Presidium of the Academy of Sciences should govern the country, and not gnawers and rumors.
    1. +5
      30 October 2018 10: 23
      The only adequate comment. The socialist system is like a subtle and complex tool. Like a violin. If you give it to Paganini or Oistrakh, you will only have to enjoy. And if the rural bandura player Petro or the piper Johnny ...
    2. -1
      1 November 2018 11: 08
      Quote: Galleon
      He spoke once and I will say it again - the Presidium of the Academy of Sciences should govern the country, and not gnawers and rumors.
      -they are unable to manage their own Academy-scandals so much .... and you tell them the country ...
  19. -3
    30 October 2018 09: 29
    Something the first time I hear that people with crusts would deploy cars with food and goods at the entrance. Some kind of fire.
    1. 0
      1 November 2018 11: 09
      Quote: Conductor
      Something the first time I hear that people with crusts would deploy cars with food and goods at the entrance. Some kind of fire.
      is an old story with Nevzorov
  20. +2
    30 October 2018 09: 34
    It was possible to reform .... but the leadership considered it impractical ..., the people could not do anything ...., there was no legal base ....,
  21. +1
    30 October 2018 09: 36
    A very illiterate article! The author contradicts himself "... the tragedy of the Soviet leaders was precisely that they managed a very large, very complex system with a very small" surplus product. "And the quality of management was just quite good, and these" guys "were not only speeches from the stands pushed, but also worked. " One of the indicators of management quality is efficiency (!), If there was none, then what quality.))
    The example of Belarus is ridiculous, for a country with a 10 million population, Maz and other monsters will always be unprofitable if there is not sufficient export. The example of China with its closed factories is objective, Mao built factories for people to provide work, and Westerners where it is more profitable to operate.
    The efficiency of production of old technological structures is always reduced, to maintain it at an acceptable level, management decisions are needed to optimize what the USSR did not do, for objective and subjective reasons.
    For example, the Len Obukhov plant had its own unbalanced metallurgical complex, where the open-hearth capacity was twice that of the forging capacity. Naturally, this entails not a small cost, and so everywhere, up to the point that expensive imported equipment bought for currency rotted in the open air, and then it was written off without working for a day.
    But it was possible and necessary to reform the industry of the USSR, but it was far from simple.
    1. +1
      30 October 2018 09: 44
      a very large, very complex system with very little “surplus”. And the quality of management was just quite good, and these "guys" not only pushed speeches from the stands, but also worked. "One of the indicators of the quality of management is efficiency (!), If there was none, then what quality.))


      Imagine - you are a super driver, but you got a car of an openly "alternative" design. With a frankly dead engine ...

      Within the framework of that system, playing according to its rules, the guys worked very well, besides inexpensive (they did without yachts)
      1. +4
        30 October 2018 10: 01
        And I don’t need to imagine, I have repeatedly received a “car of an openly“ alternative ”design. With a frankly dead engine,” and remade it into an acceptable car, sometimes into a racing car, it all depends on authority and resources.
  22. -1
    30 October 2018 09: 39
    Here's another point. An efficient economy (and efficiency is understood as the ability to satisfy all the needs of society and the state) in the form that it was in the USSR could not be. Excessive centralization, bureaucracy, lack of material incentives for engineering and management personnel, pursuit of the plan and indicators, etc. etc. The enterprises received the latest machine tools, which had been unpacked for years, because for their introduction it was necessary to suspend production, and here there is an inevitable lag in numbers, and this is fraught with serious problems for any director. The steel mills in the 80s had German rolling mills from the 30s. years. And in order to overcome all this, it was necessary to decentralize management, introduce cost accounting at enterprises ... but how to do this with a centralized distribution of the same raw materials and products? In a market economy, this is the concept of overstocking, you can transfer workers to a shorter working day, diversify production. And most importantly, why essentially nothing was done to change the situation. Why did they refuse the reforms proposed by Kosygin. Because the emergence of private business, wealthy people (and this would be inevitable if even limited economic freedoms were granted to the population) would contribute to the fact that these new "Soviet" Russians began to possess their own political personality, would begin to demand for economic and political freedoms. And then there would already be a threat to the omnipotence of the CPSU. And this could not be allowed in any way. So they kept an archaic economy, because only with it they could be in power.
    1. 0
      30 October 2018 11: 51
      If it’s possible, thesis is, what is the essence of Kosygin’s reforms? Not, you can dig into nete then you can find it, but how do you see it?
    2. 0
      30 October 2018 20: 49
      You want to say that the capitalist system satisfies all the needs of society?
      As for Kosygin's reforms, here the conservative leadership of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union could not calculate all the risks, so it chose the "evolutionary" path.
      Gorbach decided that everything can and here is the result ...
  23. +1
    30 October 2018 10: 00
    The author, without any knowledge whatsoever, writes global conclusions ...
    The first one. The USSR had EVERYTHING. But the distribution system (not a market economy) has changed little since 1920, through special stores and distributors NOMENCLATURE could and did get EVERYTHING. The trouble is that those who lived well THEN collapsed the USSR, so that living TODAY is even better, and not in Russia. The CPSU, not paying attention to social injustice, led itself to death.
    As for factories and industry. The author, ALL industry of the USSR worked on FUNDS, which allocated a plan so that the load was close, or above 100%. Today there are NO funds, but no investments, since there is no capital invested in industry, since global capital is now CREDIT, i.e. FINANCIAL, usurious, and in it the profit is made not by the surplus value, but by the INTEREST of the loan, and if the profitability of the pseudo-market production is about 4/6%, with a loan of 12/16% , I have a question, WHAT IS BUSINESS? The social burden imposed by the state to a gangster group that once stolen (privatizing) the given factory, enterprise, factory. And the USSR was destroyed not by economic reasons, the State Reserve is designed for at least 10 years!
    1. -1
      30 October 2018 10: 12
      Write beautifully. You probably know the topic. But here is one problem - how did it happen that having, as you put it EVERYTHING, the Soviet state could not provide its citizens with a quality of life at least at the level of pro-Soviet Poland or Bulgaria? Where did ALL go then? Maybe the system itself was flawed? And not only economic, but also political, incapable of reforming the economy?
      1. +1
        30 October 2018 14: 49
        that’s the whole point, who should have been reforming, didn’t want to lose their ELECTIONS. For example, in 80, I was visiting the first secretary of the Republic, I remember the Sharp777 tape recorder, asked his son how to get this, his answer “you can’t do anything” describes the situation well. But the very same people, having destroyed the CPSU, the USSR, are now the masters of Russia. All good is destroyed, bad is elevated to absolute. In the neighboring republics, the same Poland, Bulgaria, you weren’t at that time, why are you lying?? For a minute, Ukraine lived richly in the USSR as it is now, so what?
      2. 0
        30 October 2018 16: 21
        To Poland and Bulgaria
      3. 0
        30 October 2018 20: 36
        There are no ideal systems! But you seem to be new to the capitalist system, but it still gets you.
  24. -5
    30 October 2018 10: 04
    Respect to the author. So it was! The giant enterprises were built with the aim of producing mainly weapons, while no one thought about the economic component. The same VAZ was built for one reason, a huge accumulation of the population that was not enough.
  25. +7
    30 October 2018 10: 17
    The author has a sore spot - the problem of happiness. This word in an economic article occurs at least 3 times. And each time it is equated with commodity security. Hungry, hearty? He can’t think of anything else, just about how to fill the stomach and cabinets in the apartment. The thought virus persists that there was no and could not be happiness in the USSR. (It is understood that this is now all right.) Young, perhaps, will believe in this nonsense. But the old people remember what was and see, what is now. Happiness has become ... less.
    "Children were playing in the yard. Everyone was using their phone."
    1. +1
      30 October 2018 10: 22
      “Man’s happiness lies in the modesty of his desires” (s) Epicurus. Today a man rides in a Landcruiser 200 for 5 million, and the radiator grill is pre-styled, and everyone sees that he is a sucker ....
      1. 0
        30 October 2018 20: 30
        The most important thing is not what, but where is he going!
  26. -4
    30 October 2018 10: 27
    An interesting paradox. Respect to the author.
    I will also say one more factor, in my opinion, that played an important role: formation thinkingthat impeded international cooperation. Than to try to do everything, bad, but socialist, it would be necessary, according to common sense, to do the main thing, using the products of other, somewhat more skilled countries. They made the filling of the car, and instruct the French to finish it (they know how). Fashionable things, too, imported from abroad. And to make a profit by expanding the markets for domestic high-tech goods (motors, cameras). But no: how is it, because we are the highest formation, we are about to come to communism, and then it turns out that rotten buuzhi can do something better than us? Well, I do not. Will do it all by himself. And in order to murmur less, we will strengthen the iron curtain.
    Having practically withdrawn the country from the world economy, they turned it into a corral. But it is clear that doing it yourself is sooooo uneconomical. Well, here is the factor of stagnation and degradation.
    1. +1
      30 October 2018 10: 44
      formation thinking that impeded international cooperation. Than to try to do everything, bad, but socialist, it would be necessary, according to common sense, to do the main thing, using the products of other, somewhat more skilled countries. They made the filling of the car, and instruct the French to finish it


      And we entrusted the "more skillful" Frenchmen with the Mistral ...
      somehow sadly ended ...

      By the way, they tried to cooperate with "more skillful countries" in the purchase of large-diameter pipes in Germany, for gas supplies to ... Germany - they then (60s) broke the contract.

      However, at the Chelyabinsk Tube-Rolling Plant, they managed to launch production of such pipes at the 1020 Mill, which was created very quickly, on the first product of which the workers wrote: “Pipe to you, Adenauer!”


      so everything is not so clear ....
    2. 0
      30 October 2018 20: 29
      Now everyone is so smart and they know what needs to be done in advance. And then we had no idea what kind of crap called the global economy we are climbing. All people thought brothers ...
  27. +1
    30 October 2018 10: 34
    Quote: Imobile
    this despite the fact that they are ready to bake 1000 times more, if bought

    Keyword...
    My wife and I are at home baking bread in the oven, and the one that 9 people rivet is fed to the cattle ...
  28. +2
    30 October 2018 10: 35
    What did we have for 80 years? By car availability?

    author -> author -> author apparently did not find stores 87 ... 89 years. with vehicles!
    In free sale (and on credit, under a very ridiculous, but now impossible percentage for us) were:
    "Zaporozhets" ZAZ-968M
    "Moskvich" AZLK-2140
    "Niva" VAZ-2121 (9 rubles !!!)
    These other VAZs were not on sale for free! And I did not see the GAZ-24, and the UAZ-469 ...
    And does he know for accessibility?
    And how to believe this?
    1. 0
      30 October 2018 20: 45
      UAZ-469 was supplied to law enforcement agencies, so, most likely, they were simply not enough for a citizen, and it really was not sold anywhere, even in theory. I don’t know in the USSR about the possibility of purchasing a truck individually, or at least a “loaf”, but most likely, all distribution organizations also figured it out, especially since before KAMAZ there were full seams with trucks.
  29. +5
    30 October 2018 11: 34
    > it was possible to create a powerful working industry, but to make it profitable just not

    a person has pure brain in the subject that he is discussing.

    The Soviet economy was created on the basis of political economy, and Stalin, during his lifetime, did not allow to publish a textbook on the political economy of socialism, since he perfectly understood that there was no adequate scientific political economy of socialism. After the death of Stalin, they slightly altered the political economy of capitalism and called it the political economy of socialism, and it turned out incredible nonsense

    The inability to create the political economy of socialism was an objective reality - if ordinary political economy is equivalent to equilibrium thermodynamics (entropy corresponds, for example, to market risk), then socialist political economy would have to be described by nonequilibrium thermodynamics - and this just began to develop only in the 50-60s

    By the way, such a specialist as S. Glazyev has said many times that the current market is also all unbalanced, like the Soviet economy long before.

    Stalin always said thatcategories of commodity production, including profit, are not applicable to the socialist economy. Let me remind you that the Soviet economy of the Stalin period sharply differed from the Khrushchev and Brezhnev periods, which became just a consistent approach to market methods.
    1. 0
      30 October 2018 20: 24
      Your profit is the measure of everything. For socialism, this is not the main indicator. The desire for profit growth will ruin the world. It has already been mystified so that microplastics have been discovered in a person.
      Life is beautiful in itself, but capitalists turn it into complete shit.
  30. +4
    30 October 2018 11: 34
    The article is, to put it mildly, so-so, where are the numbers, texture, why repeat twice, or even three times the same thoughts in a slightly different presentation? For the sake of "a plan for the shaft,"?
    in my opinion, such articles should be written as prepared as possible, stock up with numbers and facts, and it turns out blah blah blah wadded
    1. +1
      30 October 2018 12: 22
      in my opinion, such articles should be written as prepared as possible, stock up with numbers and facts, and it turns out blah blah blah wadded



      Criticizing - offer! Offering - do it! Having done, answer !! fellow
      1. 0
        30 October 2018 16: 33
        So I suggested that you introduce figures and facts! And don’t take the criticism so painfully, calm, calm
  31. +4
    30 October 2018 12: 11
    Quote: raw174
    The idea is on the surface and it is obvious, the Union, with all the achievements, was doomed precisely for economic reasons. History has proved this, the USSR lived a bright but scanty life, died "in infancy." Why? It's just that enterprises in full state ownership are not competitive (maybe there are one or two exceptions in the world).

    You should be awarded the Nobel Prize for this "discovery" for the "correct" political conclusion! There is really one, if I can put it that way, a nuance, or rather a question - how the USSR economy was able to withstand the most severe war, and then managed to recover, create nuclear weapons, first launch a satellite into space and then a man (only about the Gulag, we are not on this "chaff "you can't cheat), but in peacetime it suddenly" collapsed ", and the state followed? We know the answer, you too, and it is the same, but at the same time you seem to be performing a different task, therefore you are replacing the truth with primitive anti-Soviet agitation! One could discuss this topic, but I consider it counterproductive for a number of reasons. lol hi
    1. +3
      30 October 2018 14: 46
      You see, the economy of Stalin and the economy of Khrushchev / Brezhnev are two fundamentally different ekonomiki.I between the victory in the Second World War and the beginning of the restructuring of 40 years.
  32. 0
    30 October 2018 13: 52
    The article is very provocative. There are many retirees who do not know another life. And there are young people who compared how it was there, and how it can be. Find a common opinion .. in the comments will not work. it will turn out srach like "then everything was better than everyone else, no, there was a wild scoop."
    1. -1
      30 October 2018 16: 24
      While we can drop the float docks rockets
  33. 0
    30 October 2018 15: 27
    Quote: VIK1711
    UAZ-469

    It was forbidden to sell "jeeps" to the population.
    1. BAI
      0
      30 October 2018 16: 32

      Nait
      Online
      Nait (Ivan) Today, 15:27

      0
      Quote: VIK1711
      UAZ-469

      It was forbidden to sell "jeeps" to the population.

      A garage neighbor in the 80s bought a UAZ on a routine after he worked as a driver for a harvest in Tselin (Kazakhstan).
    2. 0
      30 October 2018 20: 46
      Most likely, they were stupidly lacking. "Niva", in principle, is also a jeep.
    3. 0
      2 November 2018 10: 33
      Nevertheless, they were owned.) It was forbidden to sell new UAZs.
  34. +3
    30 October 2018 15: 30
    Was it possible to reform the Soviet industry?

    The question is idiotic.
    Those who were destroying the USSR were not going to preserve the property of the country, they were going to appropriate it, in the most barbaric and swift way. And if in the process of appropriation half is lost, this is the price at which they were ready. Chubais will tell you more about this than I do ...
  35. 0
    30 October 2018 15: 55
    Bullshit is complete! With all due respect to the author, but the analysis did not work! What were better plants Ford, Toyota or Mercedes? Which themselves, often, adopted the Soviet experience! And about the theft of ideas and inventions, so this is generally a byword!
    The problem was the excessive regulation of the economy! Gentlemen, the planners also worked on the implementation-production of their plan, reacting poorly to market conditions! And this is a consequence of the reforms of the bald maize, who decided to surpass the IVS! How much this bastard buried Stalin's developments in consumer cooperation. He took from ordinary people the possibility of individual entrepreneurship. Communism decided to build by the year 80, concentrating all power in the hands of bureaucrat officials! And what this leads to, we can evaluate today! Actually, GDP makes the same mistake!
  36. 0
    30 October 2018 16: 10
    Non-giants are unprofitable. There are a lot of freeloaders on them ... A simple example: a trader "earns" on resale 10-30% of the turnover, and an enterprise at best - 10, and more often - around 1%. At the same time, outside organizations are trying to "hang" on the enterprise - as a rule, unprofitable ones.
    A simple example: at a cost of 0,1841 rubles / kWh (RUE Belenergo), the company pays 0,27-0,33. On gas - the same picture. And the consumption of such an enterprise is sometimes akin to a good city ...
  37. -2
    30 October 2018 16: 14
    So what's the point? The USSR did not take into account one thing: the private initiative of citizens. Instead of cultivating, protecting from bandits, and welcoming it in every possible way, the party bodies adopted decisions to reduce personal land allotments, tightly regulated the actions of district consumer cooperatives, private artels, thousands of copyright developments were put on the shelf in science, were not introduced into industry, etc. Instead of building individual housing, roads, infrastructure, on the 1 / 6 part of the land, they built a single-industry town with half-barracks housing for workers of some plant or factory. Could you rebuild the country while maintaining the state? Can. But for this it was necessary to remove from the management of the CPSU, headed by the Politburo with all the guts. Or the party had to transform with time. Who could do that? Probably, if another person was in power, it would become possible. But alas. That did not happen.
    And technological ways somehow replace each other and no country can get away from this.
    1. -1
      30 October 2018 20: 47
      Is it possible without agitation?
      1. 0
        31 October 2018 13: 10
        No, it’s impossible without agitation, without fiction and empty talk you can.
  38. +1
    30 October 2018 16: 21
    The article is of course very interesting and makes you think. But why does the author downplay the role of theft? According to my feelings, then they stole everything, little by little and regularly.
    But everything is tens of millions of people (if not hundreds) and, in theory, theft is obtained on an epic scale. Add to this disregard for the state. ownership of the population. Add regular emissions of tens of billions of dollars to help all sorts of defective Fidel and Nasser.
    As a result, we have a hole of catastrophic size, which sucks everything good, good and eternal.
    So maybe enterprises in the USSR were not so unprofitable?
  39. BAI
    0
    30 October 2018 16: 28
    By the end of the 80s, the situation had already acquired a frankly idiotic character: the factories were still working “to the fullest” and exceeded, but in stores it was just a rolling ball.

    Once, a very long time ago, I read this phrase: "If the state takes care of the number of pants for citizens and the number of buttons for pants, citizens will be left without pants and without buttons" (attributed to some classic of Marxism). This is obviously what happened.
    And the fact that large enterprises pulled social programs is the way it is now. In the same Gazprom, for example.
  40. 0
    30 October 2018 16: 35
    The author is well done. But the article seems to me unfinished.
  41. +2
    30 October 2018 16: 44
    Quote: uskrabut
    You know, just looking at the modern "former Soviet flagships" that have remained afloat, an ugly suspicion about the true economic efficiency of the Soviet industrial system creeps in.
    This can be explained by only one thing: Industrial giants were tightly integrated into the planned economy, i.e. capacity utilization 100%, product sales 100%. With this mode of operation of the enterprise, respectively, even with a social burden, the cost of production fit into the calculated indicators. In a market economy, one can only dream of 100% sales at 100% load, and fixed costs remain constant and when distributed to a smaller volume of products, they lead to higher prices. Voila - the company becomes unprofitable. And if management is still not clean at hand, then the khan will quickly come to the company, withdrawal and embezzlement of funds is not good for the industrial enterprise.

    All that many are proud of here, and some just use boiling water (S-400, Torah, Pantsiri, Caliber) are made on these "former Soviet flagships"! That is, in Soviet times, such, if you want to know, combat stability was laid in them, that 30 years of fucking economic reforms could not destroy them, although this period was not in vain for them - the equipment and personnel grew old, and with the renovation ..., what kind of update can there be, if at the helm, in all areas, and levels are such "commentators" like you! sad
    1. +1
      30 October 2018 20: 48
      For 30 years, both people and materiel were completely updated. From the USSR, there are already only theoretical developments, enough already to remember him.
  42. +5
    30 October 2018 17: 46
    In my opinion, the author does not see behind the trees of the forest. On the contrary, the fact that Soviet industrial giants are still working is proof of their unsinkability. After all, Soviet industry was destroyed deliberately. And the profitability of these enterprises should be asked from the Deripassa and other potanin.
    1. -1
      30 October 2018 20: 49
      Nobody deliberately destroyed it. She deliberately plundered, destroy, something that can grab meaningless. Only those who were really useless quickly died, and there were many of them.
      1. +1
        31 October 2018 06: 53
        Quote: EvilLion
        to destroy, that which can be seized is pointless.

        It is possible, but in reality everything was solved as follows: when the new "effective owner" managed to privatize the enterprise, he quickly bankrupted it and sold it for scrap. It is easier and faster than trying to develop production, i.e. work. And the broth turned out to be quite good, as an initial capital - quite. All this was encouraged by the new government, which gave the enterprise to "whoever should" for privatization.
        And there is no need to demand proofs and links from me - I just saw it all. And what do the "olezheks" and "sinister lions" know about this?
  43. +4
    30 October 2018 18: 20
    Everything is very simple: even under Stalin, consumer goods were largely provided by private traders and private artels. The NEPmen pulled the country out of the devastation of the Civil War, the artels helped in many ways to establish things after the Great Patriotic War. Including shoes, and even TVs were made. And then a certain debunker of the "cult" appeared and took away everything private, including the peasant household.
    Are cruisers, electric locomotives or rockets unprofitable or profitable? And this is how to apply them! But these things no small business simply can not create.
    1. -2
      30 October 2018 20: 50
      The amendment is not NEPmans-speculators but Chekists with Mauser, who dragged these NEPmen by the eggs, wherever necessary.
    2. +1
      2 November 2018 10: 36
      Artels of the 30-50s were not private, but cooperative. They were considered a kind of socialist collective-farm cooperative property.
  44. +1
    30 October 2018 18: 39
    And here, you know, one unpleasant question arises: what was the real effectiveness of the Soviet industrial system?
    There is an unpleasant answer to this question.

    Efficiency is correlation between achieved results and resources used - i.e. maximum compliance with the goal with a minimum amount of costs incurred in the process of achieving it (goal).

    Therefore, it is only worth remembering the goals of the Soviet enterprises of the military-industrial complex, and the article immediately turns into an utterly silly set of words.
    1. -1
      30 October 2018 21: 34
      > Efficiency is the ratio between the achieved result and the resources used

      that is, it is an engineering concept that has nothing to do with the form of ownership. In non-technical systems, it is not possible to consider either the result achieved or the resources used.
      1. -1
        31 October 2018 01: 27
        Quantitative-qualitative, not engineering.

        And you can consider it outside the technical systems - but only in the context of the process of achieving a specific goal.
        1. +1
          31 October 2018 16: 34
          > And it is possible to count outside technical systems - but only in the context of the process of achieving a specific goal.

          do you even imagine how it can be considered if it is impossible to introduce the concepts of measure / metric on a set?

          Because this is the lot of technical areas and engineers, and everyone else will only verbiage
          1. -1
            31 October 2018 17: 01
            Imagine.

            You have a goal, and also there are conditions for its achievement and the necessary resource, which you must meet.

            I met the conditions, did not allow the resource to be overspended - effective.

            Realized the goal ahead of time, saved the resource - super efficient.

            Not met / did not save - not effective.
            1. 0
              1 November 2018 15: 06
              >> do you even imagine how you can count if it is impossible to introduce the concept of measure / metric on the set?

              > You have a goal, as well as there are conditions for achieving it and the necessary resource that you must meet.

              instead of an answer, you offered me demagoguery, your answer doesn’t have a method for introducing a metric
              1. -1
                2 November 2018 00: 06
                And where did you get that metric should be?
                1. 0
                  2 November 2018 11: 28
                  > And where did you get the idea that the metric should be?

                  with the fact that it is impossible to count without a metric. Metric is the scientific name for distance. If it is not possible to enter a distance on a set, that is, if there is no distance between two points, how will you even count on such a set?
                  1. -1
                    2 November 2018 14: 48
                    with the fact that it is impossible to count without a metric

                    What can not be considered - the ratio of more / less in percentage? laughing
  45. 0
    30 October 2018 20: 16
    It was possible to safely preserve and modernize the Soviet economy, but only within the framework of socialism. But the people who gained power in the USSR wanted to destroy it .... And they did it. The economy for them was secondary.
    In the first place were power and money. Why Russia is now suffering, the greedy, conceited, cynical people who lacked the state core people turned out to be at the helm, in essence, money-grubbers.
  46. +1
    30 October 2018 20: 23
    Considering the Soviet economy, the author did not take into account that the USSR fed and kept half the world, it fed, at the expense of its citizens, and there was a big problem for food products, but there were also no preservatives, and therefore most of the products went to waste, otherwise what was delivered to the citizens was healthy and of high quality
  47. +1
    30 October 2018 20: 53
    Quote: EvilLion
    For 30 years, both people and materiel were completely updated. From the USSR, there are already only theoretical developments, enough already to remember him.

    On the example of which enterprise can you prove? lol
  48. -4
    31 October 2018 00: 43
    some cite Stalin's time as an example of plenty in stores.
    and these pictures are enough.
    only they somehow forget that at that time there was not one store system, but several state-owned stores were ordinary, in which they actually sold bread, salt, matches and cigarettes, and commercial, in which prices were in the tens, and sometimes hundreds times higher than normal.
    Why not be abundant?
    There was also a cooperative one, in which often the goods were sold on the lists to members of the consumer cooperatives — remember the beer that the Turkish-born Ostap Bender treated Shura Balaganov at the meeting?
    1. 0
      31 October 2018 00: 47
      Photographer Robert Capa from Life in 1947 traveled around the USSR with Steinbeck, described his journey in the book "Russian Diary"


      Grocery stores in Moscow are very large; like restaurants, they are divided into two types: those in which products can be purchased on cards, and commercial stores, also managed by the state, where you can buy almost any kind of food, but at very high prices. Canned food is stacked in the mountains, champagne and Georgian wine are pyramids. We saw products that could be American. There were banks with crabs on which were Japanese brands. Howled German products. And here the luxurious products of the Soviet Union lay - large cans of caviar, mountains of sausages from Ukraine, cheeses, fish, and even game - wild ducks, woodcocks, bustards, rabbits, hares, small birds and a white bird similar to a white partridge. And various smoked meats.
      1. 0
        31 October 2018 10: 53
        And what does this prove? During the war, taking advantage of the problems and declining control, many have accumulated a huge amount of "leftist" money. The state took them out of circulation by all means. And, just in 1947, he carried out a monetary reform that removed the main problems.
        You do not forget, 2 years, how the war ended and how much it cost the country.
        Just in 47g. our cards were canceled, and in England they were until the beginning of the 50s. But the USA did not help us, on the contrary, they pumped money out by an arms race.
        1. 0
          31 October 2018 14: 18
          It does not prove, but illustrates the presence of commercial stores with higher prices. there was abundance and there, only inaccessible to most
      2. 0
        31 October 2018 11: 42
        Quote: Avior
        in 1947 traveled around the USSR

        1947 year. There wasn’t even such a thing in Britain, EVERYTHING on the cards, hunger and an almost complete absence of consumer goods, and English women surrendering to American soldiers for a pair of wool socks or half a pound of meat.
        1. 0
          1 November 2018 01: 25
          such hunger, such hunger, even gasoline was given on cards, so that private cars could refuel.
          another thing of the USSR is no cards for gas for the population. Meaning?
    2. +1
      31 October 2018 10: 45
      Avior, about dozens of times - nonsense. Consumer cooperative stores existed until the end of the USSR and even later. The difference is by percent, and not even many times (not to mention dozens of times). Due to age, I remember everything well, I personally stood in the Khrushchev’s bread queues and even saw Khrushchev himself in early childhood alive. Although vaguely, it was delayed in memory.
      And to give Ostap Bender’s time as an example is incorrect. This is the end of the 20s, it was still just beginning, no five-year period, no collectivization, no industrialization. Even the further path of the country is not defined, not to mention some steps (especially results) of development.
      1. 0
        31 October 2018 14: 22
        do not confuse consumer cooperation from the time of Stalin with Brezhnevskaya.
        under Stalin, these were mainly shops selling their own members of consumer cooperatives. I handed over 10 bags of wheat there - get a suit at the state price on the card. in villages, this also persisted during Brezhnev, by the way. Motor shops were still in short supply for some categories.
        and another, the commercial stores under Stalin were state-owned, not cooperative. but with a different assortment and prices.
  49. -1
    31 October 2018 10: 30
    Quote: Rakti-Kali
    since 1925 nobody built communism in the USSR

    Even as they built !!!!
    1. 0
      31 October 2018 11: 43
      Quote: Semen1972
      Even as they built !!!!

      And how can you justify it, well, besides the number of exclamation points? laughing
      1. 0
        31 October 2018 13: 15
        I don’t know what year you were born.
        But from childhood I remembered the slogans on the walls of houses: "Let's build communism by 1980!" And the signature: N.S. Khrushchev. And I remember what we were taught at school, and then at the university. Nobody rejected the idea of ​​communism. Another thing is that it turned out (after Stalin) very bad.
        1. +1
          31 October 2018 14: 14
          Quote: boriz
          I don’t know what year you were born.
          But from childhood I remembered the slogans on the walls of houses: "Let's build communism by 1980!" And the signature: N.S. Khrushchev.

          I understand you are another non-reader ... sad
          Especially for you and for the Chukchi, I will repeat my thesis highlighting in bold a key idea that non-readers do not actually read. So:
          Quote: Rakti-Kali
          The official doctrine of the USSR after the XIV Congress of the CPSU (B.) Was the construction socialism in the USSR, so you can calm down, with 1925 years nobody built communism in the USSR. Well at least to Nikita the maize.

          Still stupid questions to me will be?
          Quote: boriz
          The most powerful blow to the development of the country was dealt by Khrushchev ... one of the unfinished high-ranking Trotskyists

          But I agree with this on all 146%. Although Misha-Judas no less tried his resolution of speculation for cooperatives.
          1. 0
            31 October 2018 17: 53
            And besides incontinence of epithets, how can you confirm your point of view? The fact that they were building socialism is obvious, but (I did not wonder about the time of birth in vain) this does not mean that they refused to build communism. Socialism is a transitional stage to communism. The name of the party all this time remained "communist". After all, besides the slogan, I also said that we were taught at school and university. Not in the 90s they taught. They taught that first it was necessary to create the material basis of communism (including industry), to educate a new person, and then to swing at communism.
            1. 0
              31 October 2018 18: 25
              Quote: boriz
              And besides the incontinence of epithets

              I don’t want to offend anyone, but I probably can’t avoid it ...
              I wrote a fairly simple thesis in a fairly simple language, and even cited the source of the origin of this thesis, so what other dances with a tambourine do I need to portray? Stalin personally, and with a large concentration of people exposed to power at the Fourteenth Congress of the CPSU (B.), In his report indicated a course towards building socialism in one country. His report was approved by 588 votes, voted against 65. From that moment on, the top leadership of the party and state DO NOT BUILD COMMUNISM. And communism continued to be disordered until the seizure of power through an armed coup d'etat by a certain citizen N. Khrushchev, a Trotskyist, populist and demagogue. Which declared the fight against the personality cult of Stalin (because he was an envious bastard who wanted the personality cult of Khrushchev) and the acceleration of the building of communism (because he was a Trotskyist, idiot and a voluntarist with inflated conceit). All. I can’t chew my point even more thoroughly.
              1. 0
                31 October 2018 18: 40
                At this congress, the VKP (b) abandoned the tactics of the world revolution, of which Trotsky was an apologist. After all the attempts of the Comintern to kindle revolutions in other countries, the unreality of the proletarian revolution on a world scale was recognized. As a result, this idea was abandoned and began to build socialism in one, separately taken country. And socialism is the first stage of building communism. Nobody disputes the fact that the All-Union Communist Party (Bolshevik) has taken a course towards building socialism in one country. And "COMMUNISM DID NOT BUILD" is your invention. I was not in vain interested in your age. In my school I was 5 in history, at the institute (MVTU) 5 in the history of the CPSU and 5 in scientific communism. I have been a member of the CPSU since 1983. Both the membership card and the registration card are still at home. And they always laughed at Khrushchev not because he was going to build communism. Apparently unrealistic dates were appointed, realizing that by this time he would no longer be in power, and he would hardly be alive. Like Khoja Nasreddin.
                1. -1
                  31 October 2018 21: 57
                  Quote: boriz
                  At this congress, the CPSU (b) abandoned the tactics of the world revolution, of which Trotsky was an apologist

                  They abandoned "Trotsky's tactics" (swoop tactics), not the world revolution.
  50. +1
    31 October 2018 10: 35
    The whole trouble of such ANALYTICS from economics and production is to evaluate the entire period of the USSR in droves. Plus, ignorance of the subject.
    And there were at least six such periods. And everyone is very different and everyone has influenced the outcome of development.
    The most powerful blow to the development of the country was dealt by Khrushchev (and not Gorbachev or Yeltsin, with all due respect to them). He is one of the uninhabited high-ranking Trotskyists, of whom there were many who caused the disastrous start of the war and gigantic losses. Stalin stubbornly tried to figure this out after the war (5 questions of General Pokrovsky) and was eventually killed. Traitors wanted to live. But Khrushchev began to ruin the country, and when he realized that the West would not regard him as an equal, it was too late.
    When I hear that the industry created by Stalin was not effective, I want to spit on the speaker’s face. Immediately the question: do you know what a PEP plan is? You took part in its compilation and implementation at a decent defense enterprise in the position of beg. workshop of the main production or one of the leading departments? The answer is always no. Inefficiency began above industry. And our weapons were several times cheaper than foreign ones with comparable efficiency. Not at interest, as it is now, but at times.
    To clearly speak on the subject, you need a text larger than the above post, but could not express an attitude.
  51. +1
    31 October 2018 11: 00
    Well, one more moment.
    The question is initially stupid. Let's look at China, remember its starting position (early 70s), when jokes were told about their standard of living. And let’s compare it to today.
    But the Communist Party is in power there. And Mao’s mausoleum is much cooler than Lenin’s.
    Here is the answer.
  52. +1
    31 October 2018 11: 53
    This is anti-Soviet propaganda. The USSR was changing, and the economy was changing: it is impossible to compare the USSR of the 1930s with the USSR of the 1970s-1980s. The political system was softening. The author has not read the conclusions of serious economists. It looks like an apologetics for betrayal.
  53. +1
    31 October 2018 12: 56
    Um... No, everything is correct, of course, but it’s a lot. The topic either leads to a whole series of books with a “narrow” examination of local reflections of the effectiveness of the Soviet economy, or to a small article with slogans. The topic is old and already from the field of alternative history. There were also methods tested for this very “modernization”. NEP, Stalinist artels. Not ersatz at all, but quite statistically proven methods. All “methods” were sequestered for the sake of the political moment. There was no niche for combining small-scale initiative production that coexists and has a raw material base in the “big” economy. Answering the question in the article, we can state that yes, it is possible. In conditions of total (and, if possible, moronic) deficit, this is even necessary. Moreover, the domestic market was simply “rubber” in relation to the consumer base for this modernization. 25% of “shrinkage and shaking,” including “global” defects in large industries, is a completely solvable issue through these methods, taking into account the emerging incentive to realize this and other negative “segments” of the economy in prosperity. Was it possible to do this without breaking the entire state machine, no doubt. That's all. We got to know the “market” closely and “warmly”, so there is no point in “harassing” about the fabulous “private initiative” as exactly the engine of development. Therefore, the conclusion is that everything is possible here.
  54. 0
    31 October 2018 15: 04
    The article is good. Many people talk about the “Soviet” economy (which was also the case in the North Vietnam countries) with superlatives, but let me tell you what happened in Bulgaria. The entire economy was geared towards trade in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, literally all of it. Huge factories, huge production (each country had profiling). And when SIV collapsed, all trade stopped in an instant. The Bulgarian economy collapsed within six months. And what were you left with? - old technologies, non-competitive products and we had to close everything and start over. Which is what they did.

    Already in 2010, we surpassed the best years of socialism (in our country) in terms of production, and now we produce three times more GDP than socialist Bulgaria. But we had to rebuild all the factories and factories anew and with the latest technology. And it wasn’t easy, but it worked out - now we don’t have the IMF, there is almost no public debt (in 3rd place, the lowest public debt in the EU), GDP growth in recent years is in the order of 3-4%, wage growth in 2017 is 9%, the budget is in surplus every year and exports too. So no one will do anything without hyper-duper technologies and competitive products. Also without small businesses that provide people with food and well-being. Small business must be developed and it is the basis of many powers.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      31 October 2018 17: 58
      Poor Bulgaria, which is glad that after 27 years it has reached (some not entirely clear what) indicators of the decline of socialism, this is of course the level...

      According to Eurostat data (January 2015), Bulgaria has the lowest minimum wage among EU countries - 184 euros. Low productivity and competitiveness in European and global markets, due to insufficient R&D funding and the absence of clearly defined development policies, remain significant obstacle to foreign investment and economic growth (http://www.sgi-network.org/2014/Bulgaria/Key_Challenges)

      If I hadn’t been there and didn’t see this total poverty, even then I would have had a hard time believing you, but it’s just funny... thank you for a good evening...
      1. 0
        1 November 2018 11: 11
        If I had not been there and seen this total poverty


        My friend, you were in Kiselev’s studio, not in Bulgaria. But if this makes you happy, please, it doesn’t make us warm or cold.

        Now according to the economy - the minimum wage is 280 euros, the average is 610 euros. Not a lot, but how much do you have? GDP per capita - we have 8300, you have 10 (with all your oil and gas, etc.). Well, it turns out that you are a great power with a GDP like Spain, and labor productivity like poor Bulgaria. We've arrived.
        1. +1
          1 November 2018 11: 51
          Not a lot, but how much do you have? GDP per capita - we have 8300, you have 10 (with all your oil and gas, etc.)



          Don't worry about nonsense - you can draw anything you want in these numbers
          In fact, Russia is fighting (and winning!) in Syria. and the economy did not die.
          At the same time, it withstands sanctions and supports the LDPR. And the economy didn't die.
          At the same time, it rearmed the army and created the Su-57 and Armata and various Vanguards there...
          And the economy did not collapse.

          Today Russia is able to pay its debts (unlike the USA or Japan) per capita per capita..
          This is propaganda garbage (in many ways)

          Think about it: poor and backward Russia can rearm its army today, but advanced and rich Germany cannot. Why?
          per capita...
          What's the point of numbers if they don't correlate with real life??
          1. 0
            1 November 2018 12: 38
            In fact, Russia is fighting (and winning!) in Syria. and the economy did not die.


            Oleg, where did I write that the Russian economy is dead? Or that Russia is poor and backward? For mercy sir, I didn’t write because I don’t understand the Russian economy, but I wrote about the Bulgarian economy because it seemed to me that maybe there are common indicators in the collapse of your and our economies.

            Think about it: poor and backward Russia can rearm its army today, but advanced and rich Germany cannot. Why?


            The reasons for arming Russia are clear. But why should Germany arm itself? Yes, there is not a single reason, and not only the Germans, but most other Europeans also see no reason to give tons of money to the military service. Can they? - Of course they can, but why... there are more important things to do.

            Don't worry about nonsense - you can draw anything you want in these numbers


            Well, I’m an economist, and when I answer someone who is in a blizzard, I try to justify it with numbers, which may not always be a solid indicator, but at least show a trend.
            1. 0
              1 November 2018 13: 09
              Or that Russia is poor and backward?

              Can they? - Of course they can, but why... there are more important things to do.


              Are these some more important things?
              Does Germany have a nuclear missile program?
              How does Russia build submarine missile carriers?
              Underwater cities?
              What is she even doing that is “more important”?
              Does it wash the rabies clean of dirt?

              not only the Germans, but most other Europeans also see no reason to give tons of money to the military.

              Can they? - Of course they can, but why... there are more important things to do.


              I can do a lot too... in words.
              And by the way, in Australia at one time, when Merkel frightened Putin that his missiles would not reach America
              I received an “armour-piercing answer”: They may not reach America... but they will definitely reach Germany.
              Do you really think that we have no complaints about Europe (especially Germany)?
              In vain.
              I'm trying to argue with numbers,


              It was in the USSR that propaganda statistics were simply developed in an exaggerated manner,
              so it doesn't stick.
            2. 0
              1 November 2018 13: 13
              Oleg, where did I write that the Russian economy is dead? Or that Russia is poor and backward?


              Consider this option: sectoral sanctions were introduced against Bulgaria, and the Bulgarian expeditionary force is fighting somewhere in the Middle East (or at least in Macedonia)
              What will happen to the Bulgarian economy? per capita?
              1. 0
                1 November 2018 13: 57
                Consider this option: sectoral sanctions were introduced against Bulgaria, and the Bulgarian expeditionary force is fighting somewhere in the Middle East (or at least in Macedonia)
                What will happen to the Bulgarian economy? per capita?


                Touché! I am amazed and give up - Oleg, will you truly equalize the economies of Bulgaria and Russia?! Right?

                If we had fought in Macedonia and if sectoral sanctions had been imposed on us and if my grandmother had, say... a mustache, then she would have been my grandfather and if we had taken Constantinople in 1912,
                (in which the Russians prevented us) and if we had made an Empire like you, then we could compare our economies.

                In the meantime, the minimum wage and working environment in Bulgaria are still higher than in Russia, although you are riveting huge boats and beautiful tanks. hi

                PS And they are higher not only in Bulgaria, but throughout Eastern Europe.
                1. 0
                  1 November 2018 15: 11
                  Touché! I am amazed and give up - Oleg, will you truly equalize the economies of Bulgaria and Russia?! Right?

                  If we had fought in Macedonia and if sectoral sanctions had been imposed on us and if my grandmother had, say


                  How do you compare the two economies?

                  According to some crooked number on paper? Or by external load?
                  Is modern Germany capable of carrying out an operation in Syria in one go? Why not?
                  Oh, they could theoretically? Hypothetically?

                  In the meantime, the minimum wage and working environment in Bulgaria are still higher than in Russia, although you are riveting huge boats and beautiful tanks.


                  Shashechki you or go?
                  Unlike Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Poland, Estonia, Ukraine, Moldova...
                  millions of Russian migrant workers do not storm or try to storm anyone...
                  BUT why Karl? Why?
                  1. 0
                    1 November 2018 16: 28
                    Unlike Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Poland, Estonia, Ukraine, Moldova...
                    millions of Russian migrant workers do not storm or try to storm anyone...
                    BUT why Karl? Why?


                    Ooooh - that's simple! Because the border is closed. If they open it, move to the EU in droves. bully
                    Secondly, the EU is one state, with a common market. All EU citizens, not guest workers. I myself work in Bulgaria and my clients are from the entire EU (I am a marketer). I work, fly everywhere (luckily a ticket to Berlin is 8 euros) - and pay taxes at home.
                    And lastly - more Russians live and work in Bulgaria than Bulgarians in Russia - BUT why Karl? Why? Why is everyone rushing to the Western world? laughing

                    Btw, we welcome Russians who are moving for permanent residence! Similar culture, religion, language - welcome! Plus we open Russian schools, and people don’t have Russophobia. Maybe not in terms of politics, but at least at the everyday level we are still brothers.
            3. 0
              1 November 2018 15: 14
              But why should Germany arm itself? Yes, there is not a single reason, and not only the Germans, but most other Europeans also see no reason to give tons of money to the military service. Can they? - Of course they can,


              I can beat Mayweather too. Certainly can. am
    3. 0
      31 October 2018 18: 34
      Quote: Keyser Soze
      Already in 2010, we surpassed the best years of socialism (in our country) in terms of production, and now we produce three times more GDP than socialist Bulgaria

      Neighing.
  55. +1
    31 October 2018 16: 34
    Only it was necessary to reform not the way Gorbachev tried to rebuild the USSR.
    1. -2
      31 October 2018 17: 38
      Quote: NF68
      Only it was necessary to reform not the way Gorbachev tried to rebuild the USSR.

      And who would give you something to change??? Everyone was sitting in warm places...why change anything?? Let the hard worker change it... he gives two plans near the stove!!!
      1. 0
        31 October 2018 21: 34
        Quote: Semen1972
        Quote: NF68
        Only it was necessary to reform not the way Gorbachev tried to rebuild the USSR.

        And who would give you something to change??? Everyone was sitting in warm places...why change anything?? Let the hard worker change it... he gives two plans near the stove!!!


        Agree. It was difficult for many people not only to actually carry out reforms, but also to simply tear their butts away from their homes. And in the end, we got what we really got.
  56. +1
    31 October 2018 17: 52
    And here, you know, one most unpleasant question arises: what was the real efficiency of the Soviet industrial system? We look at the initial data and results of the Second World War, we look at the achievement of parity in nuclear weapons, we look at the development of astronautics and aviation. And we compare with indicators in the USA. Could the efficiency be improved even further? Go ahead, author, try... and the secrets of organizing production will be revealed to you, about which we look forward to new articles...
    1. +1
      1 November 2018 06: 54
      We look at the initial data and results of the Second World War,


      But I wouldn’t strongly advise looking at the official data on WWII
      The USSR had been preparing for it since the late 20s, and then spent 10 years recovering from the ruins.
      Of the men of military age, only a percentage remained alive...


      Read less propaganda
      With WWII - everything is not so pretentious there
  57. 0
    31 October 2018 18: 06
    The experience of China just showed that it was possible to develop the economy without the shock of the 90s. And it feels like the author is slowly justifying the plunder of the country
    1. 0
      1 November 2018 07: 01
      The experience of China just showed that it was possible to develop the economy without the shock of the 90s.


      You should take a closer look at that very “Chinese experience”.
  58. 0
    31 October 2018 20: 11
    I’ve already forgotten, but it seems you never knew the basics of social economics.
  59. 0
    1 November 2018 18: 50
    the author needs to read modern criticism of the Lieberman-Kosygin reform. When a talking shop was introduced instead of the Internet.
  60. 0
    1 November 2018 21: 57
    The topic is understood to be important. The article is somewhat startling at first in its directness. I come from the USSR in the 80s, I have the right to speak out. We must understand that the Soviet Union is 4 different states. Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev. Brezhnev. Gorbachev means dismantling. The author speaks exclusively about Brezhnev, and this is a hint that not everything is good in the analysis. The fact is that the availability of certain goods depended on the era. Under Khrushchev everything was possible. It appeared with him and went with him. However, the general model of production and ownership has not changed. It is not the Brezhnev era that needs to be analyzed, but the Khrushchev era. Looking only at the late USSR, we are showing historical myopia and will not understand anything. In fact, everything is explained much more simply. If you want to create consumer goods for your country, there will be a way to do it, and mega factories won’t hurt. If not, nothing will help. The author analyzes the era when there was no desire. Why wasn't it? This is a separate topic. There are, for example, the protocols of the Elders of Zion, which supposedly do not exist, but they are being carried out. We are not America, our leader is a person. One person carried them out, the other sent them away. That's the difference. And their essence is that we are not supposed to have cars and good consumer goods. NOT ALLOWED. Just a common phrase from the late USSR.
    1. 0
      2 November 2018 17: 26
      Quote: Anton
      Under Khrushchev everything was possible.

      Under Khrushchev, it was precisely what two generations had been working towards that began to work. It worked a little incorrectly, there were many technological errors, but the pace set by Stalin pulled the country forward. Early Brezhnev is also remembered for the “Golden Five-Year Plan” when everything was all right! and money too. However, there was a lag in ideological science, which was turning into dogma before our eyes. Marxism turned into a religion, the party apparatus into a priesthood, and people were more literate than they are now, and were dissatisfied with this. A factory worker is practically a process engineer! and how many engineers there were! And they had a lot of work. It’s now because of unemployment that they have two “educations” and there is nowhere to fully apply them
  61. 0
    2 November 2018 12: 22
    the whole article is described in 4 words - large Soviet outdated bad
    and now about reality. Even Khrushchev moved away from modernization, replacing it with “intensification,” i.e. work harder, hamsters! We got even worse from Gorbachev - in fact, ALL renovation and modernization programs over the course of 10 years (huge amounts of money were allocated for them) were frozen, turned into long-term construction projects and destroyed, planned logistics chains were destroyed, and no alternatives were created. And now the author shows the result and says - this is a property of the USSR economy. but this is not so - this is a consequence of the party's philistine quiet coup, when amateurs began to run the economy, turning the country into a feudal kingdom from within.
    Have you seen many prosperous feudal industrial empires?
  62. 0
    3 November 2018 10: 04
    A lot can be reformed!
    It's just a question of will and price. Regarding “will”: the Bolshevik elite did not have it. This is understandable.
    In the conditions of intolerance and militant denial of a normal economy, elevated to the System, anyone who started talking about “perestroika” automatically became an “enemy of the people”, subject to destruction and losing power.
    Therefore, “perestroika,” the need for which was realized by part of the ruling elite already after the catastrophic results of the “great victory” (the Beria-Malenkov group), was successfully sabotaged until the 80s and was not so much “led” by Gorbachev as developed in a landslide version in his presence in the form of a future lightning rod culprit.
    As for the ordinary “builders of communism” and the “new community of people (according to Brezhnev)”, expecting them to understand what is happening and have a serious civic position is simply ridiculous: an inveterate prisoner of the country-Zone can only want better rations and more warmth in the barracks.
    Therefore, the “great and mighty” USSR collapsed “on its own”... there is no one to blame! And the Terminator-Gorbachev was appointed as such.
    As for the cost of “reforming”: if you have been intensively building something vicious for a century, then the cost of reforming it cannot be small.
    Moreover, initially any “perestroika” was categorically denied and not envisaged.
    And this price will have to be paid for a long time, and it will not be possible to evade it.
  63. 0
    3 November 2018 10: 09
    Quote: aybolyt678
    Under Khrushchev, it was precisely what two generations had been working towards that began to work. It worked a little incorrectly, there were many technological errors, but the pace set by Stalin pulled the country forward.

    Due to inertia, there are still some things that are still dragging me around. The same Rosatom - it comes from those times, and the attitude towards education, from primary to higher academic, is a merit of Stalin and his people's commissars!
    The main thing that Khrushchev changed was the criteria, economic indicators and motivations.
    If under the Stalinist economy everything was measured in absolute numbers: pieces, pairs, tons, Wh, kilometers, then under Khrushchev they introduced the principles of a cost economy, a certain GDP (which is still a murky thing, since a large share of the American GDP includes the services of lawyers, and all sorts of derivatives with futures), and such a strange indicator as “earned funds”. Which, naturally, should grow from year to year. Which in practice discouraged saving money, materials and working time. And it hiccupped with monstrously low labor productivity with universal employment.
  64. +1
    3 November 2018 11: 16
    The economically illiterate leadership of the USSR led the country to economic collapse. The economically competent leadership of the Russian Federation led the country to social collapse. Attempts by werewolves from the CPSU to cross capitalist economics with communist patriotism failed. hi
  65. 0
    3 November 2018 11: 20
    Answer: you can. Example: China. hi
  66. +1
    3 November 2018 17: 38
    From my point of view, this is nothing more than a cunning attempt to justify predatory privatization.
    If these enterprises included exorbitant costs in their production costs, they would become unprofitable. And they were profitable even on paper. Any economist who worked at a large plant and experienced social work knows that these costs amounted to pennies compared to total costs. As does the share of wages in the cost.
    Therefore, we categorically cannot agree with such an assessment; it is incorrect.
    Why are they cutting social services now? Because the market demands it? Nonsense. Because they transfer huge profits offshore. And social services are a good bonus to this.
    And by the way, so that we understand that the market generally requires slaves to do everything for free, but why do we need such a market?
  67. 0
    4 November 2018 14: 09
    We figured out what was going on a long time ago.
    In Kosygin's reforms, the salary fund was formed depending on profit. At light industry enterprises. And the profit from the cost price is fixed. So many percent. And the plan by piece is again fixed. To get a big profit-salary, you need to raise (yourself) the cost of the product. And the result is an increase in the complexity of each product - to increase the cost. The Soviet amplifier sometimes contained many times more parts than the same Western one...
  68. 0
    4 November 2018 17: 44
    Don’t read this trash, better read Alexei Safronov - that’s who is an expert on the Soviet economy. For now, due to lack of time, I limited myself to his lectures on YouTube - very interesting. You can also Shubin about industrialization and the first five-year plans and Damier about the class structure and exploitation of workers in the Soviet version of capitalism. This is the minimum to get a general idea.

    PS not trolling