Military Review

The return of the Bison has been postponed. What about the engines issue?

41
The other day in the press there were statements that with the revival of the project 12322 "Bison" will have to wait. We are talking about small air-cushion landing ships, the construction of which 4-5 decided to abandon years ago.


Then the argument was as follows: it makes no sense to spend the defense budget funds on their MDRF Zubr (and these ships began to be commissioned by the Russian Navy back in 1988), if a contract was already signed for the delivery of two universal amphibious assault ships from the French Saint Nazaire ) type "Mistral". As is well known, the Mistrali of the Russian Navy was never received because the then French President Francois Hollande joined the country in anti-Russian sanctions, banning arms exports.

After the French demarche, which became a reflection of American politics, the question of the modern landing component on navy RF hung in the air. In the summer of 2017, it was announced that in Russia it was necessary to revive the construction of the MDKVP under project 12322 with its modernization. The plans scheduled for the start of the program for 2018. And when, by the end of 2018, a little more than two months remain, it became clear that a number of problems hindering the restoration of Zubrov production.

Here it is necessary to clarify that the main work on the construction of new versions of the Zubr was planned to be carried out in the period up to the 2021 year. The main production facilities that are ready to use for this purpose are: the More shipyard in Kerch and the Almaz shipyard in St. Petersburg. As a result, there are two main directions: for the Baltic and Black Sea fleets of the Russian Navy (at least at the initial stage).

Now, according to the publications with reference to the press service of the shipbuilding enterprises, the first modernized Zubr will be laid down no earlier than 2022 of the year. The main reason: the pace of creation of gas turbine engines for ships of this type. New engines should have greater power and greater efficiency in comparison with installations of type M35, which are installed on previously created MDKVP. At the same time, superiority indicators are actually small: the same efficiency in Russian-made engines is higher by 0,4-0,5%. But the main thing here is not so much the indicators of superiority, as the import substitution and independence from the Ukrainian partners. Although the indicators are also undoubtedly important.

The return of the Bison has been postponed. What about the engines issue?


The composition of each of the units already used М35 includes GTE Soviet development DP71 (in the Ukrainian classification - UGT6000) and the production of "Zorya-Mashproekt". DP71 engines are manufactured in Nikolaev from the end of the 70-x.

The replacement is offered by Saturn, which for about 4's has been working on the DKVP unit project. That work to create a new power plant for the "Bison" and dragged out, according to reports. At the same time, a version is being considered that they want to increase the efficiency of Russian engines through the use of the latest alloys. That is, you can hurry and get in fact the same Nikolaev variant, and you can go on the path of creating a truly new power plant, for which, for obvious reasons, you need more time.
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  1. pexotinec
    pexotinec 23 October 2018 10: 58
    +9
    What the hell is going on in our engine building. For so many years they can’t do anything worthwhile, starting with cars.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. lis-ik
      lis-ik 23 October 2018 19: 03
      +3
      Quote: pexotinec
      What the hell is going on in our engine building. For so many years they can’t do anything worthwhile, starting with cars.

      Such garbage is happening everywhere, just finally the Soviet backlog is over, and they were not able to grow new specialists, but the raw materials are sold well.
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 24 October 2018 16: 19
        0
        There are specialists, but the design bureaus are dispersed, the plants are put to needles.
    3. Uralean
      Uralean 23 October 2018 23: 10
      +3
      And you did not know what kind of garbage is going on in our engine building? Then you are so far from the topic that you don’t need to discuss Delitanian ... Firstly, the engine building for the Navy, it happened historically - was made in Ukraine. And there they broke ties .. And you have to create everything in a new way - and this is billions of funds .. And the point is not to create separate instances of engines .. They can be created relatively long .. But here are serial, in a huge number of engines to create .. Here it is required to build separate plants but not one. Experimental bases, pour in huge amounts, and the time factor plays here too .. And this, together with the rearmament of all the RF Armed Forces. The same applies to aircraft engines. Which were produced in MOTOR SICH Zaporizhia and Kharkov, Kiev. Now Russia is set to create new engines, aircraft, and factories for their production. And they need to be created to be made in kind, certified according to international standards .. Hundreds of factories to be built and lines to be launched. And if we can produce gliders, or Ships Hulls, then the engines are holding back .. But Russia will digest it too .. It is already working ahead of schedule on these issues ..
      1. freddyk
        freddyk 24 October 2018 10: 17
        0
        Uralets here you are described correctly here. But excuse me, couldn’t this have been foreseen by the leadership of Russia, easily allowing the junta into power in Ukraine. And also, what is the interest of the Russian foreign intelligence service?
    4. Russian
      Russian 24 October 2018 01: 29
      +1
      nothing is happening to him, he’s just gone
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. Non liberoid Russian
      Non liberoid Russian 23 October 2018 11: 03
      -6
      criticize people, knowing that you yourself in this business are probably zero comme il faut?
    2. Piramidon
      Piramidon 23 October 2018 11: 48
      -7
      Quote: 9PA
      There are no diesel engines, no gas turbines. "Glory to Russia" Rogozin (s)

      Everything is lost! I forgot to mention pensions.
      1. 9PA
        9PA 24 October 2018 06: 20
        0
        Oh yes, I forgot about pensions
  3. Galleon
    Galleon 23 October 2018 11: 04
    +16
    Yes, let there be SVPs, even on copies of previous turbines, but now. The engine can be changed over time. Everywhere the account goes to units of equipment and weapons, what is it? Forgot the big war figures? 36 thousand IL-2 were released during the war (for example), a little more than 3 thousand reached the victory. And we need to calm down that the first ship of this series for the landing will begin to build after 2022? Well, calm down. The Marines will find other vehicles. But how such an approach is far from the state approach by which we are so bored!
    1. Genry
      Genry 23 October 2018 14: 03
      -3
      Quote: Galleon
      And we need to calm down that the first ship of this series for the landing will begin to build after 2022?

      Where are you going to land? To Alaska? wassat
      In the coming years, the emergence of tasks to capture offshore coastal bridgeheads is unlikely.
      1. Korax71
        Korax71 23 October 2018 18: 49
        +1
        The landing is not necessarily carried out to capture the territory. History knows more than one example. For example, the landing in Nikolaev, when the combined detachment MP pulled the enemy’s forces in order to develop the success of the offensive of land units. landing ships are used not only as a means of landing, but also as transporters, and they can pick up cargo and l / s or civilians from the unequipped coast.
  4. uskrabut
    uskrabut 23 October 2018 11: 09
    +28
    Creating new equipment is much more difficult and more responsible than trading oil and gas. Defective managers will not help here, we need competent engineers and skilled workers, we need a modern production base, and this is not a single year issue.
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 23 October 2018 13: 35
      +8
      Quote: uskrabut
      we need competent engineers and skilled workers, we need a modern production base, and this is a matter of more than one year

      ..hydraulics - they were looking for a locksmith for half a year ... they found a penny in the neighboring area, the director drove to and from work to set up the equipment ... we lived. and our electrician-mechanic (the man is really brilliant, all the crusts, all the certifications, patents), I almost bought the area (the same scheme, they brought machine tools back and forth), family circumstances did not allow me (my wife was sick, and he drove home three times in a shift (Alzheimer) .. and the money offered was crazy 70t .... our salaries of 15 tons. personnel shortage. I think the same in the defense industry.
      1. APASUS
        APASUS 23 October 2018 19: 36
        +2
        Quote: Andrey Yurievich
        crazy 70t offered money .... at our salaries of 15t. personnel shortage. I think the same in the defense industry.

        We have the same hat! If it is necessary they can find a million, but the mechanic asked to add 5 thousand, they did not find it.
  5. Machito
    Machito 23 October 2018 11: 11
    +3
    The production of hovercraft should be considered as necessary within the framework of the outbreak of Cold War 2.0. The resources of the Russian Federation are much smaller than those of the USSR, so it is important to correctly prioritize and prioritize the development of the Navy. Landing ships are designed for external projection of force, and our priority is a defense strategy. On the other hand, the best defense is an attack that allows you to distance a military threat from our borders. In local conflicts at the approaches to our borders, such vessels are indispensable (for example, in the Mediterranean). The development of our own modern engines will not only ensure production independence from unreliable suppliers, but will also allow us to build longer-range hovercraft, which will significantly increase their scope.
    1. Sandor Clegane
      Sandor Clegane 23 October 2018 11: 18
      +13
      Quote: Bearded
      Landing craft are designed for external projection of force, and our priority is defense strategy

      belay you and your "weapons of aggression, defense strategy" have already gone beyond reason ...... name me at least one weapon-weapon that has only a DEFENSIVE option ...... there is no such, any weapon is an attack! have you washed your heads?
    2. kjhg
      kjhg 23 October 2018 11: 31
      +4
      Quote: Bearded
      Landing craft are designed for external projection of force, and our priority is defense strategy

      And how will you transfer forces to the Kuril Islands, the peninsula of Crimea, Kaliningrad, etc.? The air will not give, do not even hope.
    3. max702
      max702 23 October 2018 11: 49
      -10
      Why the hell do you need these troughs? Expensive and one-time .. If the Mistral would still be useful, but where are the bison? Really look at things in the sky enemy aircraft at sea the fleet has even greater superiority, and how? And if ordinary vehicles come in handy in peacetime and even in a threatened period, but with the Bison, what tasks should be performed? On the beaches of the days of the Navy to land?
      1. loki565
        loki565 23 October 2018 12: 08
        +4
        The main plus is speed and landing on an unprepared shore
      2. serezhasoldatow
        serezhasoldatow 23 October 2018 12: 24
        +7
        Trough = Mistral. Have you seen these Bison?
        1. Korax71
          Korax71 23 October 2018 18: 58
          -1
          I saw both bison and gazelles. Their participation in the battle for landing is extremely contraindicated. In this regard, means of horizontal landing should be developed, but not armored personnel carrier 80, but something like the St. Petersburg EFV. With good seaworthiness and speed. DKVP are good when you quickly need to remind the number of personnel and equipment on an already occupied bridgehead. Directly use the DKVP in the first echelon-suicide.
  6. Don
    Don 23 October 2018 11: 32
    +6
    Something does not cause surprise.
  7. Tektor
    Tektor 23 October 2018 11: 40
    -1
    New Bison should have a reservation of 30 mm shells, it seems to me. And one of the Grads would be made Solcepiek, and the other a Hurricane.
    1. Piramidon
      Piramidon 23 October 2018 11: 51
      +3
      Quote: Tektor
      New Bison must have a reservation of 30 mm shells

      Then the armor will "eat" a significant part of its carrying capacity.
      1. Tektor
        Tektor 23 October 2018 11: 52
        -1
        You just have to install more powerful engines.
        1. Dude
          Dude 23 October 2018 12: 48
          +2
          Quote: Tektor
          You just have to install more powerful engines.

          Yeah, let's stick there with a dozen RR Trent 1000s, reserve everything we can and cannot, and we’ll get an air cushion armadillo! wassat Yes, and in tow behind it - pr. 1852, as a fuel tank wink
        2. Genry
          Genry 23 October 2018 14: 24
          +1
          Quote: Tektor
          You just have to install more powerful engines.

          The law of Archimedes they will not cancel ...
    2. Dude
      Dude 23 October 2018 12: 37
      0
      one of the Grads would be made Solcepiek, and the other a Hurricane

      Why the sun there, with its meager range ?!
    3. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 23 October 2018 12: 52
      +4
      Quote: Tektor
      New Bison should have a reservation of 30 mm shells, it seems to me. And one of the Grads would be made Solcepiek, and the other a Hurricane.

      Why trifle, then! Armor, with a foot, thick, and poke rockets))) (sorry)
      This boat should be as light as possible! And his task: to quickly run and throw the landing, and if you are lucky (which is unlikely) to run away, faster. Clearing the shore is not his task
  8. askort154
    askort154 23 October 2018 11: 50
    -3
    Galleon .... Forgot the numbers of the big war? 36 thousand IL-2 was released during the war (for example), a little more than 3 thousand reached the victory ...


    Where does the wind come from? Li-2 (Douglas DC-3), first flight 17.12.1935/XNUMX/XNUMX
    Total released - 16079 piece. ! yes hi
    1. DenZ
      DenZ 23 October 2018 13: 38
      +6
      Quote: askort154
      Where does the wind come from? Li-2 (Douglas DC-3), the first flight 17.12.1935/16079/XNUMX. Total released - XNUMX pcs. !

      Do not understand. Do you read Hebrew from right to left? It's about IL-2 and not about Li-2
  9. atk44849
    atk44849 23 October 2018 11: 52
    +13
    Lost Country School of Engineers and Mechanics! and the gref said - that it is necessary to abolish mathematics and physics at universities. chemistry! a, YOU about the engine - diesel ,,,,
  10. Radikal
    Radikal 23 October 2018 11: 58
    +9
    The other day in the press there were statements that with the revival of the project 12322 "Bison" will have to wait. We are talking about small air-cushion landing ships, the construction of which 4-5 decided to abandon years ago.
    Yesterday we discussed the possible production of "Murena", the same question was - where to get the dviguns? However, some deputy prime ministers believe that the main thing is to crow, and then ... sad
  11. faiver
    faiver 23 October 2018 12: 13
    +1
    everything is as always ... and here you can not swear ...
  12. serezhasoldatow
    serezhasoldatow 23 October 2018 12: 28
    +10
    In the distant 1979, he shot on FED-5V. In those days, the technique was at the level: the one that I shot, and the one that I shot. True, quietly from the Specialist.

    1. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 23 October 2018 13: 59
      +1
      Quote: serezhasoldatow
      In the distant 1979, he shot on FED-5V. In those days, the technique was at the level: the one that I shot, and the one that I shot. True, quietly from the Specialist.


      In the first photo, 123121 Jeyran Ave. And there were also Skates and Squids, only those older and smaller ..
  13. ustas - Crimea
    ustas - Crimea 23 October 2018 12: 44
    +6
    Clarification The Sea plant is located in Feodosia, and not in Kerch.
  14. askort154
    askort154 23 October 2018 14: 07
    +5
    DenZ ...askort154 ... Where did the wind come from? Li-2 (Douglas DC-3), the first flight 17.12.1935/16079/XNUMX. Total released - XNUMX pcs.
    Do not understand. Do you read Hebrew from right to left? It's about IL-2 and not about Li-2

    I don’t know either Hebrew or Arabic. But ready to stand against the wall recourse Think something negative me? The data is accurate. And I understood the code, it was too late. crying hi
  15. earloop
    earloop 23 October 2018 20: 24
    0
    It is necessary to "lash out" and make an engine!
  16. Uralean
    Uralean 23 October 2018 23: 19
    +1
    Quote: Galleon
    Yes, let there be SVPs, even on copies of previous turbines, but now. The engine can be changed over time. Everywhere the account goes to units of equipment and weapons, what is it? Forgot the big war figures? 36 thousand IL-2 were released during the war (for example), a little more than 3 thousand reached the victory. And we need to calm down that the first ship of this series for the landing will begin to build after 2022? Well, calm down. The Marines will find other vehicles. But how such an approach is far from the state approach by which we are so bored!

    Nonsense .. Maybe you’ll become the riveting engines at the machine tool .. But what? Two times, they spat, and it’s done ... For four years, even the factories in Kerch and Feodosia were not completely re-equipped to manufacture and service new equipment, and you already demand, subject to an embargo (no equipment to be delivered to us by other countries) so that we could produce products in thousands of copies .. You need to figure it out .. A second comparison of production, for example, IL-2 during the war and the release of a modern e-electronic High-energy product, is not possible .. A thousand IL-2 in its technology is much less than one Su35 in terms of energy supply, metal consumption, saturation with electronics, electronic warfare. Thousands of different factories work for one such plane (ship, submarine) .. And for cables, metals, electronics, weapons, etc. ..