The triumph and tragedy of the "black baron"

27 August (15 August) 1878 of the year, one hundred and forty years ago, was born Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel - Baron, Lieutenant General, Hero of the Russian-Japanese and World War I, yet much better known to our fellow citizens by the events of the Civil War. “The White Army, the Black Baron” is all about him. A charismatic man in a black Circassian coat and a fur cap - so Baron Wrangel was remembered by all who saw his portraits from the time of the Civil War. Wrangel is one of the most interesting figures of that troubled time.

In the Soviet period, he was demonized, called the "black baron", monarchists and white immigrants extolled as one of the last true defenders of the White idea. But the Civil War was, though very important, but still an episode in the life of the Russian general. If it were not for the revolution, the name of Baron would hardly have been associated with politics - he was making a brilliant military career and, until 1917, he was not at all about to go into political squabbles.

Peter Wrangel came from a very distinguished German family name, the home of the Tolsburg-Ellistfer family of the Wrangel family. Many representatives of the Wrangel clan achieved fame in the Russian service. Thus, Lieutenant General Alexander Wrangel, who fought in the Caucasus, directly commanded the capture of Imam Shamil. In honor of the navigator Admiral Ferdinand Wrangel named the island of the same name in the Arctic Ocean. However, the father of Peter Wrangel, Nikolai Egorovich Wrangel, unlike the majority of the representatives of the clan, made a career not in the military, but in the civil field. He was an official, then went into business and was chairman of the board of the Russian gold mining company. In 1877, Wrangel married Maria Dmitrievna Dementieva-Maykova, who bore him three sons - Peter, Nikolai and Vsevolod. Nikolai Nikolaevich Wrangel, brother of the “black baron”, later became a famous Russian art critic. Peter was born in 1878, in Novoaleksandrovsk, Kovno Province (now it is the Lithuanian city of Zarasai).

Peter Wrangel's childhood passed in Rostov-on-Don. Here, where the family of his father, Nikolai Egorovich, lived until the 1895 year, their family mansion still remains - the famous "Wrangel House", which was built in the 1885 year. Peter Wrangel himself had every chance not to start a military career, but to follow in the footsteps of his father - a successful entrepreneur. In 1896, Peter graduated from the Rostov Real School, and in 1901, the Mining Institute in St. Petersburg, received an engineering education. However, family traditions still took their toll, and in 1901, Peter Wrangel entered as a volunteer in the Life Guards Mounted Regiment. In 1902, he passed the exam at the Nikolaevsky Cavalry School and received the rank of cornet guard with admission to the reserve.

Resigning from the guard, Peter Wrangel went to serve in the Irkutsk province - official of special assignments under the Irkutsk governor-general. It seemed that a civil career awaited Pyotr Nikolayevich, but the Russian-Japanese war began. Baron re-enrolled in the army - this time already forever determined the choice of life. He was enrolled in the 2 of the Verkhneudinsky regiment of the Trans-Baikal Cossack Army, where in December 1904 was promoted to the center. In 1906, the city of Wrangel was transferred to the 55 th Dragoon Finnish Regiment in the rank of headquarters captain, and in 1907 in the Life Guards Mounted Regiment in the rank of lieutenant. After graduating from the Nikolaev Military Academy in 1910, Peter Wrangel continued his service. By the beginning of the First World War, he commanded the rank of captain and commanded a squadron of the Life Guards of the Horse Regiment. Already 12 December 1914, the valiant officer received the rank of colonel.

Wrangell proved himself very well - as an enterprising, courageous commander. October 8 1915. He was appointed commander of the 1-th Nerchinsky regiment of the Trans-Baikal Cossack army, fought in Galicia against the Austro-Hungarian troops. In January, 1917, shortly before the revolution, Colonel Peter Wrangel was promoted to major general and appointed commander of the 2 Brigade of the Ussurian cavalry division, and in July 1917, after the revolution, commander of the 7 Cavalry Division, then Commander of the Consolidated Cavalry Corps.

The tumultuous political events of the fall of 1917, forced the general to move to a dacha in Yalta. There he was arrested by local Bolsheviks, who placed the baron under arrest. If they knew what role Peter Wrangel would play in the Civil War in the foreseeable future - they would never let him go alive. But then Peter Wrangel was only the general out of office of the old army. Therefore, he was released and soon the baron moved to Kiev, where he contacted representatives of the Hetman Pavel Skoropadsky.

But soon Wrangel rejected the idea of ​​cooperation with Skoropadsky, convinced of the weakness of the Kiev regime. Arriving in Yekaterinodar (Krasnodar), Peter Wrangel entered the Volunteer Army and was appointed commander of the 1-th cavalry division, then - commander of the 1-of the equestrian corps. Already in service in the Volunteer Army, Major General Peter Wrangel 28 November 1918, was promoted to lieutenant general. So Peter Wrangel became one of the leaders of the White movement, distinguished not only by great personal courage and demanding of subordinates, but also by an ardent hatred of the Bolsheviks. It was Wrangel who commanded the capture of Tsaritsyn 30 on June 1919 of the year.

In November 1919, the baron headed the Volunteer Army, which fought in the Moscow sector, but already 20 December 1919 due to disagreements with General Anton Denikin - Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Southern Russia, was dismissed from his position and 8 February 1920 was dismissed. Wrangel departed for Constantinople, but already on April 2 of 1920, General Denikin decided to leave the post of Commander-in-Chief of the All-Soviet Union. After this decision, the military council, chaired by General Dragomirov, elected Peter Wrangel as the new commander-in-chief. Already on April 4, the baron returned to Russia - the British battleship "The Emperor of India" brought him to Sevastopol. 28 April 1920, the year Wrangel renamed the army into the Russian Army, hoping, thereby, to raise the morale of the troops, who were by that time in a very difficult situation.

In 1919-1920 Peter Wrangel for the sake of joint action against the Bolsheviks was ready to unite with anyone. He even sent parliamentarians to the anarchist Nestor Makhno, but the rebels executed them. However, a number of less significant "green" atamans concluded an alliance with the Wrangel. Wrangel was ready to recognize Ukraine as an independent state, and the Ukrainian language as the second official language other than Russian after the creation of federal Russia. Wrangel recognized the independence of the mountain federation of the North Caucasus, on whose support he also counted.

Contrary to Soviet propaganda, Baron Wrangel was not a supporter of the return of peasant land to landowners. On the contrary, he acknowledged that the seizure of landlords by the peasants in 1917 was lawful, offering only to pay a certain contribution to the treasury of the state. Equally, Wrangel made concessions to the Cossacks, and even tried to win over the workers, taking steps to protect their rights. But all this did not help the baron. By this time, the Red Army was far superior to the armed units subordinate to Wrangel. Baron seriously discredited himself and continued cooperation with the British and French, whose intervention in Russia caused a negative attitude towards them, even by many former officers of the old Russian army.

By the beginning of autumn 1920, the situation of the Russian army of General Wrangel had deteriorated significantly. Wrangel could not prevent the Red Army from occupying bridgeheads in the Kakhovka area, and on the night of November 8 1920, the Southern Front of the Red Army under the command of Mikhail Frunze launched an offensive on the Crimea. The 1-i and 2-i cavalry armies, the 51-division of Vasily Blucher and the army group of Nestor Makhno under the command of Semen Karetnik participated in this operation. Despite the great losses, Red managed to take Perekop by storm and break through to the territory of the Crimean peninsula. The threat of an offensive by the Soviet troops, which no longer had the strength to resist the Wrangelians, led to a mass evacuation of the remnants of the Russian army from the Crimea. Around 100, thousands of people — soldiers and officers of Wrangel’s army — were evacuated to Constantinople in an organized manner. The Black Baron never returned to his homeland.

Once on the Turkish coast, Wrangell settled on the yacht "Lukull", which stood at the embankment of Constantinople. But, despite the fact that the “black baron” left Russia, the Soviet leadership continued to consider him a dangerous opponent of the Soviet government, which could organize a new anti-Bolshevik movement with the support of the Western powers. 15 October 1921, a year after the evacuation of the Wrangeers from the Crimea, an Italian ship “Adria” crashed into the yacht “Lucull” from the Soviet port of Batum. The yacht sank, but Wrangel and his family luckily escaped to escape - during the ram they were absent on the yacht. There is a version that the ram of the yacht was specially planned and organized by the Soviet special services. In any case, the Soviet leadership was right, fearing the hostile activities of Wrangel and his supporters.

In 1922, the “black baron” moved from Constantinople to Sremski Karlovtsi, in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Yugoslavia), and in 1924 he founded the Russian All-Military Union (EMRO), which many Russian officers who found themselves in emigration European countries and in Turkey. In an effort to give ROVS special legitimacy, Peter Wrangel conceded the supreme leadership of the organization to Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolayevich, who was the supreme commander-in-chief of the Russian Imperial Army during the First World War. The EMRO continued to engage in anti-Soviet activities, studying the situation in the Soviet Union and consolidating all anti-Bolshevik emigration.

Baron Wrangel himself in September 1927 of the year moved from Yugoslavia to Belgium, where he settled in Brussels, becoming an engineer in one of the local organizations. However, in April 1928, Peter Wrangell unexpectedly contracted tuberculosis. The disease developed very rapidly and 25 on April 1928, the 49 year-old Lieutenant-General Peter Wrangel died suddenly. The relatives of the commander decided that the Soviet special services had poisoned Baron, who continued to monitor the former leader of the White movement. Peter Wrangel was buried in Brussels, but the next year his ashes were transported to Yugoslavia and October 6. 1929 was solemnly reburied in the Russian Church of the Holy Trinity in Belgrade. Many associates of Wrangel continued to mourn the general for a long time, believing that if he were alive, he would certainly continue the struggle against Soviet power. Some were even convinced that in the 1941 year, Wrangel would inevitably be on the side of Nazi Germany, at least he would try to seize the moment and join the German forces to participate in the overthrow of the Bolsheviks.

The figure of General Baron Wrangel meets with conflicting opinions. Traditional for Soviet historical The science approach depicts the Baron as an ardent opponent of Soviet power, acting in the interests of restoring the old regime. The “White Patriots”, in turn, see Peter Wrangel as a heroic military leader who wished Russia only good. But, most likely, Peter Wrangel himself in 1920 could not answer the question of what he wanted Russia. In his hatred of the Bolsheviks, he was ready for an alliance "even with the devil." Hetman Skoropadsky with his "Sich Riflemen", Germans, British, French, Caucasian highlanders and Crimean Tatars, atamans of the "greens" - with whom the "black baron" was not ready to cooperate.

Meanwhile, the fighting in the Crimea in 1920, partly prevented the Red Army from delivering a fatal blow to the White Poles and take Warsaw. Most likely, for Peter Wrangel, by this time the war had already acquired the character of some kind of “action for action”. He very vaguely imagined the future of Russia in the event of victory over the Bolsheviks - some kind of federation with semi-independent formations of Ukrainians, Cossacks, Highlanders.

But Wrangel actively supported the West, realizing that the longer the Civil War is torn apart by Russia, the more massive the blow will be delivered to the Russian state, the more difficult it will be for the country to revive its former power.

Of course, all that has been said does not cancel the military qualities of Lieutenant General Peter Wrangel, the hero of the Russo-Japanese and World War I, who received awards not for staff work, but for the blood shed by him and his soldiers on the battlefields. Peter Wrangel was an interesting and tragic figure in the turbulent period of Russian history, which there is something to respect, but not worth idealizing.

Comments

[Korsar4]

The summary is universal. Suitable for many. But you can’t argue.

And first of all, the Bulgakov "Running" is remembered.

[Olgovich]

Meanwhile, the fighting in the Crimea in 1920 partly prevented the Red Army from delivering a fatal blow to the White Poles and taking Warsaw.

The author needs to know that in order to defeat the Russian Army in the Crimea, Poland and the Bolsheviks concluded a CEREMIA (there were two of them), showing touching unanimity, for both Poles and Bolsheviks, real Russia was the deadliest danger.
One thing you need to know about Pyotr Nikolaevich: a volunteer, a veteran of two wars, a gentleman of St. George. winner of the highest awards of Russia for courage.
And he fought for Russia to the end, consistently and firmly.
In the Crimea, reunited with the Motherland in 2016, a monument to the Russian patriot general was erected.

[Korsar4]

And then the time began for Crimea, described by Shmelev in The Sun of the Dead, a book in which every page is pierced with pain.

[Vladimir 5]

The author is reproached, because from time immemorial famous people of Russia are called by name and patronymic, and everywhere they should be: Pyotr Nikolaevich Wrangel ... Also, the author showed a clear adherence to the personality and activities of P.N. after all, the Bolsheviks are incomparable to the right and to the left, they traded and surrendered the territories and peoples of Russia to everyone, for the sake of maintaining power, how they treat them ... PN Wrangel, as the last commander of the white movement "for a united and indivisible Russia" deserves a deeper and a fair acquaintance with the historical fidelity of Russians, like other leaders, in order to cure them of the Bolshevik lies and slander, and of new liberal influences, which are no better than the Bolsheviks in their negativity ...

[bistrov.]

Quote: Olgovich

for the Bolsheviks, real Russia was the deadliest danger.

And which Russia is "real"? With the so-called "table of ranks"? Like there: .... what will you please, Mr. Privy Councilor ...?

In tsarist Russia, about half of the rural population was illiterate, from the word at all. After all, only in the so-called. In the "volost" villages there were "parish" schools, where they taught the law of God, reading, counting and writing. "Real schools", where they gave the then "secondary", 7-year education, were located in large cities and were paid. Could a peasant son from some remote farm go to the provincial center and study at a real school, and then receive and higher education? It was almost impossible, since he even had nothing to put on himself, except for self-woven bast shoes, not to mention paying tuition fees, somewhere to live and
to eat something ...
Was such a "real" Russia a mortal danger for the Bolsheviks? Oh, undoubtedly it was! For the then recruit, it was a problem to study even the Mosin rifle, even in the Second World War, many soldiers were unable to master Tokarev's somewhat advanced SVT, not to mention the fact that such a military specialty as a tank driver was extremely scarce and these people were strictly prohibited by special orders use not for "intended".

That is why, one of the first tasks, among the many that the Bolsheviks faced, was the task of organizing universal access to high-quality affordable education and they coped well with this task, as evidenced by the scientific achievements of this relatively short period, which lasted only 70 years.

And who was Tsar General Wrangel? He fought against the Bolsheviks, which means that he defended the privileges of a small handful of rich people, merchants, landowners, but by no means a simple peasant and worker, and he also poured water on the mill of foreign aggressive states that were sleeping and saw how to weaken Russia even more. these rifles, guns, uniforms, and their troops were sent to help ..., intervention, maybe they heard ...?

And it is very unfortunate that people like Wrangel, Denikin, Kolchak, the wise modern nouveau riche, who are in power in Russia today, erect monuments and it is very clear why.

To pervert and erase from the people's memory a beautiful country with a just social system, the USSR and justify the forcible restoration of capitalism, based on the robbery of the people by a bunch of unscrupulous capitalist oligarchs.

[Olgovich]

Quote: bistrov.

And what kind of Russia is "real"? With the so-called "table of ranks"?

Nope, real Russia is one in which there never was cannibalism, corpse eating and many millions of starvation deaths in the 20th century and there was no Russian cross. This is Russia a war veteran, the order bearer P.N. Wrangel.

Quote: bistrov.

Could a peasant son from some remote farm go to the provincial center and study at a real school, and then get a higher education?

Lavr Proskuryakov, peasant son, one of the best engineers in the world, whom Eifel admired, the creator of the most complex and longest bridges in the world, as a reminder to you. And he is not alone.

Quote: bistrov.

even in the Second World War, many soldiers could not afford the mastery of a somewhat advanced Tokarev SVT, not to mention the fact that such a military specialty as a tank driver,

But what about illiteracy "defeated" by the 1930s?

Quote: bistrov.

That is why, one of the first tasks, among the many that the Bolsheviks faced, was the task of organizing universal access to high-quality education and they coped well with this task,

Russia perfectly coped with this task before the VOR, having built about 40 thousand schools and filling them with teachers. The school in the availability of a maximum of 3 km was such implemented project in real Russia. Or did your foreign tourists bring schools and teachers from their Swiss? It was only possible to RESTORE the number of schools and students that existed before the Thief. 1927 Mr.
But also to the 40th anniversary of VOR-zilch: January 4 1957 year, a decree of the Central Committee of the CPSU "On the elimination of illiteracy among the population" appeared.
And again a bummer: resolution of the Bureau of the CPSU Central Committee for the RSFSR and the Council of Ministers of August 27 1962 year "On the completion of the elimination of illiteracy and semi-literacy in the RSFSR"

Quote: bistrov.

And who was Tsar General Wrangel? He fought against the Bolsheviks, which means that he defended the privileges of a small handful of rich people, merchants, landowners, but by no means a simple peasant and worker

RUSSIAN General Wrangel fought against those who seized power by force, contrary to the will of the people expressed in the elections, i.e. He fought for the power of the people.

Quote: bistrov.

intervention, maybe you heard ...?

A third of Russia given by the Bolsheviks FOREVER to the German occupiers on March 3, 1918, maybe they heard?

Quote: bistrov.

foreign aggressive states

It was the Entente in Compiegne (1918) and Versailles (1919) that returned to the country the lands donated by the Bolsheviks to the invaders, forcing them to get out of Russia — remember, finally!

Quote: bistrov.

And it is very unfortunate that such people as Wrangel, Denikin, Kolchak are the cunning modern nouveau riche who are in power in Russia today

Not nouveau riche, but time and truth have put everything in its place

[vladcub]

Olgovich, actually in 1902 there was a hunger riot in the southern provinces of Russia. To restore order, the Minister of the Interior von Plehve, by the way a man of great intelligence, used troops. As a villager, I can say: crop failure is possible under ANY power because: "man is the king of nature. But nature does not know this" (m / f "The Secret of the Third Planet")

[Korsar4]

Right.

“There is only the King.
This King is merciless.
Hunger is his name. ” (with).

[Olgovich]

Quote: vladcub

Olgovich, actually in 1902 there was a hunger riot in the southern provinces of Russia. To restore order, the Minister of the Interior von Plehve, by the way a man of great intelligence, used troops. As a villager, I can say: crop failure is possible under ANY power because: "man is the king of nature. But nature does not know this" (m / f "The Secret of the Third Planet")

There were hungry years, but there were no deaths from hunger in real Russia in the 20th century. As well as cannibalism, as under the next power in the middle of the 20th century. ANYWHERE in the world has there been such (more than 10 million hunger deaths) in any Africa. Only with the "people's" government.
The villager should know this more than anyone else.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Olgovich

There were hungry years, but deaths from hunger in real Russia were NOT in the 20th century.

There were no deaths? Olgovich, are you tired of lying insolently?

"The birth rate and mortality rate of the Orthodox population in the Russian Empire in 1889-1891. All-subject report of the Ober-Procurator of the Holy Synod for the Department of the Orthodox Confession for 1890 and 1891, as well as for 1892 and 1893)", Synodal Printing House. St. Petersburg, 1895

Year. Is dead.

1889/2

1890/3

1891/3

1892 / 3 564 352.

A common method of calculating supermortality is to subtract “normal” deaths from the numbers obtained during the fasting period. This direct calculation method is extremely low-indicative for a hunger researcher and, strictly speaking, cannot be applied. Nevertheless, in order to identify demographic losses and the dynamics of their increase during the "force majeure periods", this approach is quite suitable.

Obviously, one or even two “normal” years preceding a hunger strike are not indicative. The approximate natural mortality rate in the previous period must be calculated based on the arithmetic average of several years. So, of course, we make a well-known assumption, not taking into account the population growth over the years, and therefore a corresponding increase in mortality. But, nevertheless, within seven years, this fluctuation will not give a significant error.

An article by V. Pokrovsky “Population” in the Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary gives the following figures: In 50 provinces of European Russia in 1892 (after a crop failure of 1891) 3563398 people died (3,92% of the total population.), Whereas in the seven-year period 1884–90 only 2820363 people per year died (3,34%).

We take the figure 2820363 as a normal indicator.

Since 1890, we have seen a clear increase in mortality, the cause of which was the deterioration of the diet and the use of surrogate food. By 1891-92 the figure grows to frightening values. Since the main part of the Orthodox population lived in the European part of Russia, these figures are normally correlated with the data of the “All-Substantial Report”. Let's make simple calculations:

1891 - 3 045 828-2820363 = 225 465

1892 - 3563398-2820363 = 743 035

225 465 + 743 035 = 968 500

If we take into account that it is necessary to include in the general losses the non-Orthodox population, which was not included in the statistics of Pobedonostsev (in any case, not only the Orthodox died), the result will be somewhat different. According to the 1897 census, 125 people lived in Russia, non-Orthodox of them - 640% - 021 people. Exact data on the number of "foreigners" for 30.7-38. we do not have. Taking the background of Orthodox deaths as general, 571 will make up (rounded) 468%, which means that with "foreigners" 1891% = 1892.

That is, the supermortality of relatively prosperous years is 1.

And this figure is incomplete, because Church books counted ONLY baptized, which can be recognized as Orthodox. That is, unbaptized children were not included in the statistics of Pobedonostsev.

Quote: Olgovich

As well as cannibalism, as under the next power in the middle of the 20th century. ANYWHERE in the world has there been such (more than 10 million hunger deaths) in any Africa. Only with the "people's" government.

Calculation of supermortality for 1921-22, 1932-33 and 1947, can you bring me, Mr. yap?

[bistrov.]

Quote: Olgovich

Not nouveau riche, but time and truth have put everything in its place

I do not even consider it necessary to answer your upper "attacks" so as "not to pour from empty to empty."

As for the latter, does it mean you approve of all Khodorkovsky, Berezovsky, Abramovich and other today's "masters" of life, who fraudulently robbed the people of hundreds of enterprises that the people have been building throughout the country for more than one year? They simply cut many of them into scrap metal, placing there now all sorts of shopping centers, vegetable stores, or they are destroyed, shining with empty eye sockets of windows. Is that "true"?

[Olgovich]

Quote: bistrov.

I do not even consider it necessary to answer your upper "attacks" so as "not to pour from empty to empty."

You can not object to the obvious facts nothing. Except empty chatter.

Quote: bistrov.

Regarding the latter,so you approve all kinds of Khodorkovsky, Berezovsky, Abramovich and other today's "masters" of life, who fraudulently robbed the people of hundreds of enterprises that the people had been building throughout the country for more than one year?

What does this "mean" from?
Kpssniki arranged predatory privatization and transferred the plants to Khodorkovsky. They are to blame. And the Hodors just took advantage of the situation.

[Sweetheart]

Quote: Olgovich

You can not object to the obvious facts nothing. Except empty talk.

Here's an empty chatter, like an amnuel and its pack of NTS you do.

[Looking for]

RUSSOPHOBE!!!

[naidas]

Hmm, you didn’t flog the people in the Kolchakovo counterintelligence, they hung it from the lanterns at Yudenich, cooked the living at Krasnov, so your real Russia did not work out.
American General Graves: “In Eastern Siberia, for every person killed by the Bolsheviks, there were a hundred people killed by anti-Bolshevik elements.”
US officers Sayers and Kahn: "Hundreds of Russians who dared not submit to the new dictator (Kolchak) hung on trees and telegraph poles along the Siberian Railway."
"Russian Vedomosti" Prince Lvov: Bulak-Balakhovich - the memory of him was not good. Robberies and, most importantly, the gallows forever, must have destroyed the reputation of Balakhovich among the peasant world. Over 40-50 versts from Pskov, peasants with stern disapproval talk about his executions in Pskov squares and about his inhuman addiction to hanging.
In the opinion of General A. I. Denikin, the counterintelligence of the White armies was "the centers of provocation and organized robbery."

[Olgovich]

Quote: naidas

US officers Sayers and Kahn: “Hundreds of Russians who dared not submit to the new dictator (Kolchak) hung on trees and telegraph poles along the Siberian Railway”

From the movie "Ivan Vasilievich ...": "When you say it feels like you are raving (WITH):
- The "American officers" Sayers and Kahn in 1919 were ....7 (seven!) Years!
Two Jewish Marxist "writers" were born in..England in 1912, they moved to America in 1938, were NEVER in Siberia, and invented their own evil libel at the request of customers.
Such are all of you "witnesses" and "eyewitnesses"
.
What a shame ....

[naidas]

I apologize, but you weren’t there at the time, don’t disgrace yourself defending the sadists who sold Russia, I hope you are not one of those guys from the US Army Colonel Morrow, complaining that his poor soldiers ... "could not fall asleep without killing anyone that day. .. When our soldiers captured the Russians, they drove them to the Andriyanovka station, where the wagons were unloaded, the prisoners were brought to huge pits, where they were shot from machine guns. ” “The most memorable” for Colonel Morrow was the day “when 1600 people were shot.

A disgrace which did not live, did not know and does not want to know ...

[Sweetheart]

Quote: Olgovich

there was no Russian cross.

Olgovich mounted his beloved horse?
Well, here's a "Russian cross", exactly from the time the liberals came to power in Russia.
An almost twofold drop in the birth rate in 1988-1993, unlike the Khrushchev era, was not accompanied by an increase in the number of abortions. During the recession of the 1990s and the beginning of the 2000s, there was also an increase in mortality, which was associated with a sharp decline in the standard of living of the population, reduction of jobs and employment, increased crime and increased consumption of alcohol, drugs and their surrogates per capita ( especially among young people and the working-age population).
From 1925 to 2000, the total fertility rate in Russia decreased from 6,80 to 1,21 children per woman. Of these, 71% of the total decline falls on the years 1925−1955 [8]. Despite this decline and losses as a result of the war, the population of the RSFSR for 1925–1955 increased by 25 million. A sharp decline in the birth rate occurred in the early 1990s [9]; At the same time, mortality in Russia began to steadily exceed the birth rate. https: //ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_crisis_in_Russian Federation
This even Wikipedia knows ...
In 2007, by decree of the President of the Russian Federation, the “Concept of the demographic policy of the Russian Federation for the period until 2025” was approved. This document states that “since 1992, a steady decline in the population has begun due to the excess of the mortality rate over the birth rate. Over the past 15 years, more than 2 million people died in Russia annually, which is twice as many per 1000 people than in European countries and the USA, one and a half times more than the world average, and were born annually during this period 1,2-1,5 million people. " In this remarkable document, the main reason for the low life expectancy is presented: "high mortality of citizens of working age." Not an eyebrow, but an eye! Something from the series “- What happened to the submarine?” “She drowned.”

[vladcub]

Bistrov, I partly agree with you, but about the "light" I disagree with you: ALL the front-line soldiers with whom I spoke, they together scolded SVT. You say: "many soldiers were unable to master the somewhat advanced SVT", and the famous "dad" was more noticeable than the Mosin rifle? As you know, the PPSh has become the most massive SMP, and the fighters have remained the same. As for the driver mechanics, I recommend that you read Drabkin: "I fought in a tank," and also ask how many hours did the mechanics prepare in the USSR and Germany?

[Fedorov]

"many soldiers were unable to master the somewhat advanced SVT"

Yes, she was on the shoulder. Just sensitive to dirt, but how in a trench in the rain, for example, to clean it regularly, or at -20, when your fingers barely work? Therefore, they sometimes threw them, as they wedged and took Mosinka in their hands.

[vladcub]

"Wehrmacht soldiers were armed with rifles, and only commanders were using submachine guns," and the places were armed with SS regiments.
The point is not that they are bad or not, but in economic feasibility: 1) they had a large stock of rifles from: Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Poland and all rifles chambered for German. 2) The German economy was experiencing a severe "hunger" in many areas, otherwise why would they have ersatz? Speer wrote about this. 3) the rifle is cheaper to manufacture than the PP.

[bistrov.]

Quote: vladcub

all rifles under a German cartridge.

Well, not really. Then why, in your opinion, the Germans were the first to start creating more low-power, so-called. "intermediate", shortened cartridges and make small arms for them, this is the so-called. "assault" weapon, -Sturmgever-44? Yes, and everything in their infantry troops was sharpened around a rifle-caliber machine gun, such a machine gun they had in every infantry squad.

The point here is not the "high cost" of submachine guns, they had quite cheap, even completely primitive ones, for example, EMP, MP-28 or MP-35, and the MP-40 was much cheaper than its predecessor MP-38, I don't think so. that they were more expensive than 98K rifles. The fact is that the generals from the OKW were against the mass arming of soldiers with submachine guns and were completely right.

And so, yes, Germany, despite the occupation and subjugation of all industry in Europe to itself, was never able to fully provide its troops with small arms, like all others, and this was one of the reasons for its defeat in the war.

[Alf]

Quote: bistrov.

The Mosin rifle weighed 4 kg, had a barrel length of 74 cm and a powerful cartridge, while aiming lightly hit 600 meters, and with concentrated fire up to 2 km.

And a lot of rifles were fired at 2 meters at 600MB, am I already talking about 2 km and don't stutter?

[bistrov.]

Quote: Alf

a lot of 2MV rifles fired at 600 meters,

The point is not the technical parameters of the rifles, both Mosin and Mauser rifles, and not even the ability to shoot (to raise a good shooter, long and regular training is required, preferably from childhood, when every miss is awarded a weighty crack from the parent, with the corresponding comment, do not burn charges, they cost money, as you know, it is in childhood that we are most susceptible to all irritants, so many snipers have been hunters since childhood.), and the fact that the opposing sides tried to disengage the engineering structures olozhit within the actual sighting (lesion growth figures of the enemy by a single shot from a rifle without optics, even within just 300 meters is considered a good shot) reach just rifles and machine guns (600 meters), as the most effective small arms. (agree that submachine guns are completely useless here)

As for shooting at 2 km., The Mosin rifle was created during the reign on the battlefield, as a mobile force, cavalry, it was from two kilometers that concentrated volley fire began on the attacking enemy cavalry.
In 1944, the production of Mosin rifles, as such, was discontinued in the USSR, due to the low demand for shooting on the battlefield of the Second World War over 400 meters, they completely switched to the production of a carbine of the 1944 model with an integral bayonet (on carbines of an earlier release (1907 and 1938 years) the bayonet was absent.

Now the trends are changing again, shooting from small arms at the enemy’s manpower on the battlefield, especially aimed fire, at a distance of even more than a kilometer, is again in demand, so the designers again began to solve the problem of creating small arms for these purposes.

[Alf]

Quote: bistrov.

Now the trends are changing again, shooting from small arms at the enemy’s manpower on the battlefield, especially aimed fire, at a distance of even more than a kilometer, is again in demand, so the designers again began to solve the problem of creating small arms for these purposes.

And what class did the constructors create weapons? Snipers? Ordinary machine guns and assault rifles do so for 200-300 meters.

Quote: bistrov.

As for shooting at 2 km., The Mosin rifle was created during the reign on the battlefield, as a mobile force, cavalry, it was from two kilometers that concentrated volley fire began on the attacking enemy cavalry.

Yes, a mosquito for this was created, as well as Mauser and Lee-Anfield, but the war showed the fallacy of this theory.

[Alf]

Quote: vladcub

ALL the front-line soldiers with whom I spoke, they together abused the SVT.

And many of them knew how to install a gas regulator?
And the sailors, as technically more advanced, were highly respected, constantly flashing with them on the chronicle.

[Vladimir 5]

Alf-SVT had a number of drawbacks: according to this, they did not resume production by the end of the war, although everything was available .. (for an automatic rifle an unnecessarily long barrel, an open bolt, and a constant fear of misfire to wish for the best). The more successful Simonov’s rifle, created before the Second World War, which we now have as SKS, but already under the cartridge 7,62 / 39, did not go, because Stalin trusted Tokarev and did not allow the transition to Simonov’s carbine, although everyone understood the superiority of SKS ... A the sailors, with what they armed with, appeared with that, you can see with Thompson's assault rifles and others ...

[Alf]

Quote: Vladimir 5

(for automatic rifle

SVT-self-loading rifle, you should not confuse it with ABC-36, that’s where the really dead-end branch is.

Quote: Vladimir 5

on this and did not resume production

At cost, one LIGHT was equal to 6 mosquitoes. Expensive.

Quote: Vladimir 5

an unnecessarily long trunk

The barrel length of the CBT and Garanda is approximately the same. The length of the threaded portion of the barrel SVT-555 mm, for Garanda-610 mm. But to the Garand, the American infantrymen had no complaints, the higher technical level of the soldier affected.
And by the end of the war it became clear that the distance of opening fire from the infantry did not exceed 100-150 meters, and at that distance a simpler and cheaper submachine gun was about the same as a self-loading rifle, I don’t even mention fire density.

[Vladimir 5]

The first adopted version of the SVT was an automatic rifle, then it was truncated to self-loading, because the recoil is too large for aimed automatic firing .... Whatever you say, the Garand M1 is more successful and has been in service for a long time. Of course, 150 meters for a little, but up to 300 meters is enough for submachine guns of the Second World War, and the fire density is not comparable .. Therefore, the main advantage of PPSh, the rate of fire, which some perceive as minus, was the best at that time PP and PPSh deserved. and respect .....

[Mikhail Matyugin]

Quote: Alf

At cost, one LIGHT was equal to 6 mosquitoes. Expensive.

Expensively, this is when the Spanish Republicans delivered 400.000 pcs of mosquitoes, not counting the cartridges for them. Or is it everything for the West, but sorry for their own?

[bistrov.]

Quote: Olgovich

and for the Bolsheviks, real Russia was the deadliest danger.

I advise you to re-read Isakovsky's poem "The Duma of Lenin": In the Smolensk province, in a hut in a cold winter, a peasant woman gave birth to me ...

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: bistrov.

Isakovsky's poem "Duma of Lenin":

Here, in the second grade (I don't remember exactly), they studied "Lenin and the stove-maker". I remember: "I will ask, said the military man,
take your instrument with you ... "

[Koshnitsa]

“Lenin?” “Then the old man sat down.(WITH).

[Olgovich]

Quote: bistrov.

"Duma about Lenin"

Yes, yes, from this, i.e. "thoughts":

... Is he hungry at all, is he very well fed,
Я still grew and from ten years
I realized that one science is open to me -
How to weave bast shoes and graze cattle.
...
Isakovsky lied, rudely lied, it was already inconvenient for him: under the "accursed" tsarism in 1913 r graduated school in the village, then entered to the gymnasium , and his patriotic verses were even published in newspapers by royal satraps.

Poor, miserable boy ...

[bistrov.]

Quote: Olgovich

Tsarism in 1913 graduated from school in the village, then entered the gymnasium,

So, he had to leave the gymnasium because he was unable to pay for it — the family living in the village was in dire financial need ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: bistrov.

So, he had to leave the gymnasium because he couldn’t pay for it — the family living in the village was in dire financial need ..

So he weaved bast shoes (as he lied) or in the gymnasium, after all, he studied and PRINTED verses?

[Mikhail Matyugin]

Quote: Olgovich

In the Crimea, reunited with the Motherland in 2016, a monument to the Russian patriot general was erected.

Amazing, did not know this fact! Is this a private initiative or with the filing of official authorities?

[K-50]

Another Judas, who wanted to establish his dictatorship based on the bayonets of foreign soldiers.
Anyone, no matter how well-intentioned, operates, if he does not rely on the support of the people, but on foreign interventionists, there is a Judas and a usurper.

[Koshnitsa]

Lenin and his gop-company relied precisely on foreign mercenaries; foreigners did not fight at Wrangel.

[bistrov.]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Lenin and his gop-company relied precisely on foreign mercenaries; foreigners did not fight at Wrangel.

What kind of "foreign mercenaries" did Lenin have?

[Koshnitsa]

Germans, Austrians, Magyars, Chinese, Koreans, Latvians, Estonians and others. Up to half a million bayonets.
How is it in Ukraine? in the ATO zone, all sorts of Canadians, Americans, Swedes. They came to kill the Russians.

[Beringovsky]

Sorry, dear Kosnitsa, but this is nonsense. People were ready to fight, to give their lives for an idea, not for loot. And they fought not with the Russians but with the "bourgeois" - do not confuse them.
Well, what kind of "mercenaries", what could the young Soviet government offer them then?

[Koshnitsa]

Yakir writes that he paid his Chinese with royal coinage gold, Latvians were also paid with gold coin.
Well, the mercenaries were allowed to kill, rob, rape the Russian population. Such are the ideas.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Well, the mercenaries were allowed to kill, rob, rape the Russian population. Such are the ideas.

Where did you get such ideas? Weren't you confused with your grandfathers? The old men said: in front of the Cossack army advances, kills and rapes the civilian population, and after it the looting families in carts go and rob.

[Koshnitsa]

Your old men misinformed you. You retell Soviet propaganda leaflets of the 20s. But it seems to me that after the liberation by the militia of Yekaterinoslav, not everyone will survive being in the filtration camp as part of denazification. From natural causes, of course.
Anti-Russian and anti-Kazakh propaganda will be suppressed.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Your old men misinformed you. You retell Soviet propaganda flyers of the 20s.

Well, yes, why should old people lie? Vaughn and Sholokhov also writes about this in The Quiet Don.

[Koshnitsa]

Well, agitation and propaganda, then they lied all their lives. It is harsh, there Tolstoy also wrote how the Bolsheviks flew to Mars. But it turns out they did not fly.
How do you imagine a trip of Cossack relatives from the Kuban to the war in Gulyai-Pole? Take a map, measure the distance.
Yes, again, what could be taken from the farm laborers who even drank their share?
Their rags, empty glass containers, lice in the end? What is so valuable?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Well, agitation and propaganda, then they lied all their lives.

What does the agitation and propaganda have to do with it, if witnesses of that time told?

[Olgovich]

[quote = Beringovsky] People were ready to fight, give their lives for an idea, not for loot. [/ quot] What is the "idea" of the Chinese? They served for allowance and for a salary [quote = Beringovsky] And they fought not at all with the Russians, but with "bourgeois" - do not confuse. [/ quote]
Red Latvian arrows earning on a kill Russian returned to .... bourgeois in Latvia, they went to work and service [quote = Beringovsky] Well, what kind of "mercenaries", what could the young Soviet government offer them then? [/ quote]
Young power captured the richest country, which was Russia. Which she certainly made a beggar, but she did not save on mercenaries: after all, the entire protection of the Bolshevik bonzes did not consist of Russians, but of Latvian and Chinese foreign mercenaries. It is a fact.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

What is the "idea" of the Chinese? They served for allowance and for pay

Interestingly, did the Blolsheviks pay the Chinese and Latvians with "Kerenka" or "Katerinka"?

[Koshnitsa]

Little royal coins. Such coins.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Little royal coins. Such coins.

So Kolchak still got their hands on them, and then the Czechs and the French took him away.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

So their all Kolchak got his hands on it, and then Czechs with the french taken to their place.

To school, to school immediately!
How much can one expose one’s ignorance ?!

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

To school, to school immediately!
How much can one expose one’s ignorance ?!

Are you sure that in the so-called "gold reserve" of Russia there were no gold pieces?

[L cornelius sulla]

.

Quote: Koshnitsa

Germans, Austrians, Magyars, Chinese, Koreans, Latvians, Estonians and others. Up to half a million bayonets.
How is it in Ukraine? in the ATO zone, all sorts of Canadians, Americans, Swedes. They came to kill the Russians.

Absolutely true comparison. In the small Transnistrian region, the "Red Chinese" San Fu-yang and Zhang were active. And how many Chinese red gangs operated on the lands of the Don Army?

[Koshnitsa]

The Chinese have disappeared in Russia about half a million, this is one of the mysteries of demography.
Many died in the war, and then they also shot.
Walking did his job, walking should leave.

[Alexander Greene]

Baron Wrangel, a non-Russian, nobleman, tsarist general, one of the leaders of the counter-revolution and the White Guard, is a class enemy of the working people, therefore there is much to talk about him. In 1920, our grandfathers and great-grandfathers (workers and peasants of Russia) said everything about this, throwing Wrangel and his army out of the country.
PS About the photo with the monument to Wrangel in the territory of the church institution. This indicates only one thing, that the church has acted and continues to oppose socialism, against the power of the working people. It’s worth considering.

[Koshnitsa]

Wrangel is a relative of Pushkin, on the paternal side, and suddenly on you, someone declares him non-Russian.
And his distant ancestors in general were immigrants from Denmark, like the first Rus. And suddenly the Turkic-Ukrainians declare Wrangel non-Russian.

[Looking for]

It’s a foolish thing to name a person judging a person’s nationality by flag, the language doesn’t turn around. I also lived all my life in Ukraine, nevertheless a purebred Russian - Mr. Kulebaki of the Gorky Region. But what kind of blood are you. ?? But the essence of the matter was Wrangel the enemy. He remained.

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: Seeker

But on the merits of the matter-Wrangel-was the enemy. He remained.

For Waltsman’s subjects, yes. You have heroes there with Bandera and Mazepa.
For Givi, Motorola and Strelkov with Zakharchenko, he is a hero.
But I don’t want to talk to you, the fellow countrywoman Vlasova.

[Koshnitsa]

Here is a photo from Givi's office
"These are the portraits of wonderful people hanging in the office of our commander Mikhail Tolstoy (" Givi "). ============================= =================== It is wonderful when Russian soldiers of our time do not forget the heroes of the departed Russia from the past! "

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And his distant ancestors in general were immigrants from Denmark, like the first Rus, and suddenly the Turkic-Ukrainians declare Wrangel non-Russian.

Well, if the Baltic Germans with Lower Saxon roots are considered Russian, then ...
You understand ...

[Koshnitsa]

Do not ukro-Turks judge this

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Do not ukro-Turks judge this

As far as I remember, you are not Russian either.

[Beringovsky]

Well, yes, the Russians come from Denmark ... only in Denmark no one has ever heard of any Rus.
Apparently it was some deeply conspiratorial Rus
They came to us in a sealed train car ... pah, you, drakkar arrived, and yeah!

[Koshnitsa]

Rorik Jutland, no, not heard? Here the topic is not about the work of Zadornov

[Beringovsky]

Zadornov was a comedian, apparently you too?
Of course, I heard about Khrerik as a railway, an outstanding figure of the early Middle Ages, between the robbery of a Friesland village and asking him to give him this village in flax, which, according to the opinion of non-wishers, managed to hit a thousand kilometers and capture a huge country there. And do not tell anyone about this, continuing the epic with the village.
Here he was entot Khrerik Datsky

[Koshnitsa]

Zadornov was not only a comedian, but also an anti-Normanist. However, it always matches
Of course, the origin of the term Rus from the ethnonym Friezes is only a version.

[Beringovsky]

But the Normanists do not even know how to joke - they are figing severe and serious as their battle ax ... okay
I will not argue, the topic is not about that.

[Koshnitsa]

Not at all, any topic is ready to discuss in a calm key

[Opera]

Wrangel is a Russian officer whose ancestors served the Russian Empire and shed blood for it! Or do you think Green, the Russians were revolutionaries sailing on ships from America and traveling in cars from Germany ?! Maybe the idea that they made Russians happy was Russian? Maybe Marx and Engels were Tambov and Ryazan men ?! Enough of the people to laugh!

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Oper

Wrangel is a Russian officer whose ancestors served the Russian Empire and shed blood for it! Or do you think Green, the Russians were revolutionaries sailing on ships from America and traveling in cars from Germany ?!

And why then are you Latvians, countrymen Wrangel writing to non-Russians?

Quote: Oper

Maybe the idea that they made Russians happy was Russian? Maybe Marx and Engels were Tambov and Ryazan men ?! Enough of the people to laugh!

But the Marxist idea, just reflects the ideas of the rural community. Engels, for example, considered her a prototype of a future society.

[Koshnitsa]

And why are these Latvian fellow countrymen Wrangel if his father’s estate was in Poltava province?

Quote: Alexander Green

But the Marxist idea, just reflects the ideas of the rural community. Engels, for example, considered her a prototype of a future society.

You are raving.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Quote: Alexander Green
But the Marxist idea, just reflects the ideas of the rural community. Engels, for example, considered her a prototype of a future society.
You are raving.

Read the collected works of Marx and Engels; they have several articles about Russia there. Evolve.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And why are these Latvian fellow countrymen Wrangel if his father’s estate was in Poltava province?

And this is nothing that Wrangel was born in Novoaleksandrovsk of the Coven province (now it is the Lithuanian city of Zarasai)

[Trilobite Master]

Rubbish was a little man. An unprincipled careerist, a lying and rotten politician, a talentless commander. He created the EMRO in full accordance with the ideas of its creator, obsequiously licked the boots and bloody creature Mannerheim, and the unsurpassed Slavophobic Hitler, tearfully imploring these two sworn enemies of the Russian people to help them continue the destruction of this very people, which they failed to complete in 1920's for reasons beyond their control. Being wrung out and cursed by their Homeland, Wrangel, Krasnov and some others like them (not very numerous, I must say, to the credit of the Russian emigration), instead of calming down and thinking about the correctness of their own position, like many clever and honest people, real the patriots continued, with all their little bit of silence, to harm their people in favor of their own painful ambitions. Krasnov was eventually hanged, Wrangel, of course, would have waited for the same fate. Monument to Wrangel in Sevastopol could be put only by those who hung the memorial tablet of Mannerheim in St. Petersburg — either clinical deaf-witted, or direct provocateurs and traitors, or, most likely, both of them together.

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: Trilobite Master

approvingly licked the boots of both the bloody creature of Mannerheim and the unsurpassed Slavophobe Hitler

So he died in 1928, in more detail about "licking and sucking", these are your terms, so to speak, interesting, but facts are needed.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Koshnitsa

more about "licking and sucking"

Regarding "sucking" I don't know from what wet fantasies you got it. And about "licking":

Quote: Trilobite Master

The EMRO created by him in full accordance with the ideas of his creator, obsequiously licked the boots and bloody creature Mannerheim, and the unsurpassed Slavophobia Hitler

Read carefully, disassemble the sentence - where is the subject, where is the predicate ... If after careful reading there are questions left - ask, do not hesitate, although it seems to me that everything is clearly written there.

[Koshnitsa]

Wrangel killed the Trotskyists, quite successfully, and suddenly it turns out that he inflicted an irreparable mental wound on some individuals. Very incomprehensible.
And to hear from white-ticketers evaluative opinions about the hero of several wars is somehow strange.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Wrangell killed Trotskyists

Oh, and Trotskyism has already gone on ... Do you, too, like Boris 55, think that Trotskyism is something between a psychiatric diagnosis and a dirty curse? Let’s be so simple, for the sake of interest, we will define the terms - what is Trotskyism, who are Trotskyists and whether Vargel could kill them ...

Quote: Koshnitsa

emotional wounds of some individuals

rather caused my message to seem like.
Wrangell was a fierce opponent of the country in which my grandparents lived. While they were running barefoot through the streets, playing lapta or grandmother, he dreamed of coming to these streets with weapons in his hands, for which he was ready to kill, including their parents. His associates willingly shot at the Russian people both during the Great Patriotic War and during the Finnish War, many of whom were later executed as accomplices of the fascists.
So clearer?

[Koshnitsa]

Whom did Wrangel want to kill? Those who ran barefoot? Did they write this to you in the Pravda newspaper?
99% of collaborators during the war were Soviet people, with all the consequences.
Trotsky was the commander of the Red Army at that time, so his subordinates are the most typical Trotskyites. For this reason, anmass was put on the spray in the 30s. For what they fought, they ran into it!

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Trotsky was the commander of the Red Army at that time, so his subordinates are the most typical Trotskyists.

I have never heard of such a definition of the term "Trotskyist". Amused. Let's just say this is a short story in my freak show, thank you.
Apparently, you drank today. Or, perhaps, your son, grandson or young nephew has taken over the password from your account. In any case, I do not see a reason to reproach you, but there is no desire to develop further controversy.
Try tomorrow morning to justify in any clear way Wrangel’s relationship with the NPT, it will be very interesting. Those reasons that you gave today for smearing you on the wall, I will not use, because personally to you, at the current moment, I have no hostile relations.

[Koshnitsa]

It was sarcasm actually.
But again, the vast majority of active participants in the civil war, Stalin put into consumption or turned into camp dust. The most unfortunate mobilized - starved to death or made collective farm slaves Deny, I hope you will not?
Thus, he carried out the "work" of the same Wrangel, well, some people also became a victim of the Holocaust, but mostly inactive participants in the civil war suffered there.
The Russians of Donbass rebelled against national oppression, which has been going on there for almost a hundred years, and naturally leftists, communists and other shelupon could not organize an uprising, under the tears that they say it is Ukraine, Russians and Ukrainians, brothers and so on.
Therefore, the Russian spring is the work of the right, including the Cossacks.
And Wrangel, Denikin, Kolchak and a number of other white leaders and heroes, their spirit, St. George ribbons and this is the antithesis of Ukraine, Ukraine of any Grushevsky, Scherbitsky, Petrovsky, Skoropadsky, Yanukovich.
And the only moral force that can go all the way in the fight against Ukraine and Ukraine is the leaders of the White Cause.
Hence the subcreative state of the left movement in the young Russian republics.

[Koshnitsa]

Therefore, you will not find a portrait of Kovpak or Voroshilov at Givi, and the grandson of this Ukrainian partisan is fighting in the ATO, as are the children and grandchildren of the other Soviet Ukrainians, however, as well as anti-Soviet. The mug of Bolshevism on the Don as a whole in the GV was of a Khokhlyatsky character and the heroes of the White Cause therefore, they were resurrected from non-existence in this place and at this time, as a symbol of victory. Therefore, the Wrangel case won there, definitely.
You personally may not like it, but such are the realities.

[Trilobite Master]

Yesterday on NTV there was another issue of Prilepin's Russian Lessons No. 33, The Modest Charm of Occupation. I think you might be interested, there is both about state building and about internationalism ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz5TTbhG4hs

[Koshnitsa]

God forbid, I'm not a hunter for nonsense.
I don’t like the work of the Yeltsin cop-graphomaniac or his show-offs and sketches, or his appearance in the Donbass after the hostilities ended, and to listen to him about good Ukrainians is generally vomiting.

[Koshnitsa]

The simplest question is the village of Lugansk, in which, until 2014, there was one Ukrainian woman sent, the teacher is Mova, and the rest are Russian-speaking Don Cossacks, so why was this Russian village transferred to a foreign state in 1945?
This was done by the Communists. Moreover, the borders of the Ukrainian SSR and BSSR passed through the zone of German occupation of 1918.

[RUSS]

Prilepin who is it?

[Koshnitsa]

Order of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker
I and II degrees
The Order of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker is awarded to servicemen and soldiers of the people's militia of the Donetsk People's Republic:

for high personal performance in official activities, courage and courage shown in the performance of military duty;
for high combat readiness of troops and ensuring defense capability;
for exemplary performance of military duty by military personnel (soldiers) of subordinate units, units, formations, their faultless performance of official duties and achievement of high combat training.
This is the Wrangel Order. Therefore, the Wrangel case won.
The Order of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker of two degrees was originally awarded on behalf of the Russian All-Military Union - ROVS (whose members fought on the side of the DPR). As of January 2015, I. I. Strelkov and V. P. Kononov, Givi, Motorola, Zakharchenko were awarded the Order of the II degree.

[Alf]

And what is ROVS?

During the Second World War, the EMRO found themselves on opposite sides of the front. Some took neutrality, others formed Russian collaborationist units as part of the troops of the Third Reich. And, for example, the captain of the first rank G.E. Chaplin fought on the side of the allies, participated in battles in Norway, landed in Normandy, liberated Belgium, was the commandant of the prisoner of war camp, soon becoming a British lieutenant colonel (though he hoped to convince his command to start a war against THE USSR)
December 1939. In connection with the outbreak of hostilities of the USSR against Finland, the Head of the ROVS General Arkhangelsky turned to Field Marshal Mannerheim with a proposal for the participation of Russian volunteers in the armed struggle against the Red Army on the Soviet-Finnish front.
On May 21, 1941, the Head of the Association of Russian Military Unions, Major General A. A. von Lampe, addressed to the Commander-in-Chief of the German Army (OKH), Field Marshal Walter von Brauchitsch with a request, in case of hostilities against the USSR, to provide the ROVS officers with the opportunity to take part in the armed struggle with the communist government in Russia ..
June - August 1941. German military attack on the Soviet Union; first summer campaign. Individual ranks and small groups of ranks of the ROVS, on their own initiative, are sent to the Eastern Front, wanting to take part in any form in the fight against the Bolsheviks in their homeland.

Quote: Koshnitsa

Therefore, the Wrangel case won.

What are we proud of? Serving your enemies?

[Koshnitsa]

You need to go to the DPR and LPR, there they will quickly explain everything why there are portraits of Wrangel and his orders being worn around there. Go to the "Somalia" battalion immediately, they will explain everything. Some are friends, some enemies, in the young republics they do it quickly.
All questions to these new public entities.

[Alf]

Quote: Koshnitsa

All questions to these new public entities.

You famously kicked a topic.

Quote: Koshnitsa

Who are friends

And who the DNI and LC are friends, they themselves do not understand much.

Quote: Koshnitsa

why there around the portraits of Wrangel and the order wear it.

So in Russia, and from kolchak and krasnov from the skin of heroes manage to do.
And in the DNI and LC I have nothing to do. Firstly, it’s a very muddy state education, which themselves do not know what they want. And secondly, I have work here, I do what TU-95 and TU-22 fly on.

[Reptiloid]

Quote: Koshnitsa

You need to go to the DPR and LPR, there they will quickly explain everything why there are portraits of Wrangel and his orders being worn around there. Go to the "Somalia" battalion immediately, they will explain everything. Some are friends, some enemies, in the young republics they do it quickly.
All questions to these new public entities.

Well, have you gone, is it? More details pzhlst! How, when, where exactly were. Here is Elena Gromova, a journalist for the site, who has published many reports here and never about any Vlasovites. Red flags of the USSR. Take an interest, get acquainted with its materials pzhlst. Report.

[Reptiloid]

I re-read everything! Koshnitsa-Koshnitsa! Now we can say that you ------ either came here a second time, or, I’m embarrassed to say ---- you are two-faced, and there is a second nickname .... I will check, look for those old and old comments .... ..It's not fast this ...

[Koshnitsa]

Besides, Mannerheim himself was a member of the "Internal Line", that is, the counterintelligence service of the ROVS. Did he lick his own boots?

[Altona]

Quote: Olgovich

One thing you need to know about Pyotr Nikolaevich: a volunteer, a veteran of two wars, a gentleman of St. George. winner of the highest awards of Russia for courage.
And he fought for Russia to the end, consistently and firmly.

-------------------------
Collaborating with anyone, and especially with the British and French. Olgovich, when will you repel epaulettes from a T-shirt? Ugly, by golly.

[Koshnitsa]

It was necessary to cooperate with the Germans and the Japanese, like Lenin? Or with the Americans, like Trotsky?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Altona

Collaborating with anyone, and especially with the British and French.

The British and French liberated from the German occupiers the lands of Russia that were presented to them forever by the Bolsheviks (Compiegne 1918). When will you remember this already, finally?

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: Alf

And in the DNI and LC I have nothing to do. Firstly, it’s a very muddy state education,

So this is the position of the Ukrainian Nazis, they are the young Russian republics so called.
Your position is clear, you don't have to continue. You should go to the Azov dobrobat then, although no, it's better to go to Tornado, there are plenty of them!
And who is holding you with such Russophobic views on the enterprise? You don’t like Wrangel, you can commit a sabotage, reap a marriage, and there’s an accident.

[Alf]

Regarding incomprehensible formations.
And what do they want, DNR + LC?
They want to live in peace and freedom? Then, go ahead, for freedom and tranquility it is necessary to fight. Fight, who's stopping you?
You can not ? Not enough strength? Then contact a neighbor who can help. But the problem is immediately drawn — the neighbor is not the same as he was before '91, he is not going to lay his soldiers for thanks. You need to pay for help, if not with money, then, at least, by the adoption of his side. Ah, and you don’t want that? Do you want a neighbor to fight for you, and after that you yourself lived? No guys, either take the neighbor’s hand or on your own. As they say, either remove the cross or put on your underpants. In 2014, the people of Crimea clearly said, we want to go to Russia. The result is in Russia. And in the referendum in the DPR about joining there was not a word, we just want to live separately. And if it didn’t work, they immediately shouted Russia, save it.
And by the way, where you saw Russophobia, I personally do not understand.

Quote: Koshnitsa

you can commit a sabotage, reap marriage, and there is an accident.

Clearly, verbal diarrhea went.
Yes, I don’t like the wrangel, it’s the same destroyer of the country as the kolchak.
You have interesting analogies, since the Wrangel is not like, then, then, Russophobe.

[Koshnitsa]

I understand you Adolf, oh sorry, Alf, you are on the side of the Ukrainian Nazis, so you and the DNI do not like Wrangel either.
Because for us Russians it is very important. And you need to join the "Tornado" battalion. Yours there.

[Alf]

Quote: Koshnitsa

I understand you Adolf, oh sorry, Alf, you are on the side of the Ukrainian Nazis, so you and the DNI do not like Wrangel either.
Because for us Russians it is very important. And you need to join the "Tornado" battalion. Yours there.

Clearly, the conversation is dumb with the deaf. I’m not holding you back anymore.

[Koshnitsa]

Download, nebrat!

[Altona]

Quote: Olgovich

The British and French liberated from the German occupiers the lands of Russia that were presented to them forever by the Bolsheviks (Compiegne 1918). When will you remember this already, finally?

-------------------
Yes, yes, and banging along the autocracy and several autocrats you love before.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Altona

Yes yes and banging along the autocracy and several beloved wami autocrats before that.

What was it?!

[Opera]

The wording about Wrangel's readiness to conclude an alliance "even with the devil" causes sincere surprise, and then the Crimean Tatars, mountaineers, Germans, British, French are listed ... Well, first of all, let's recall Lenin's policy of reliance on national outskirts and say that Crimean Tatars were running around with red flags, like crazy people fighting with gusto against the Cossacks and the Russian population in general! Is not it so?! Until then, until the Bolsheviks began to point out to them that religion is opium for the people and in general to impose their own order on the ground! The British in the first place and the French behind them absolutely did not want the restoration of the Russian monarchy, so that they probably should have simply been kept silent! Otherwise, I really want to talk about Germany - the payment of part of the indemnity in gold and tsarist securities, the Brest Peace, the obligations of the Bolsheviks to the West in the person of the Anglo-Saxon capital and Jewish bankers overseas! What are the conflicting assessments of Baron Wrangel? The fact that the Russian officer did not accept the Bolshevik coup, as well as the February betrayal ?! This is exactly what the Russian officer had to do - nothing else!

[Opera]

And yet, what is surprising for the defenders of Bolshevism is that Russian officers, including naturally ancestors by blood, were Germans, Swedes, etc. including the Russians themselves, all are entirely enemies of the working people, although for centuries Russia has been glorified and defended! Russian Cossacks are quite often monsters and maniacs - "they raped, killed, burned ..." All class enemies are clearly defined in the decree on the Red Terror: this is the royal family, royal persons, civil servants, officers in general, cultural figures, clergymen .. Further, the peasants are kulaks, i.e. well-to-do, which turned out to be like a lot for the "impoverished Tsarist Russia" ... And who are the goodies here? Revolutionaries, Jews, Latvians, Estonians, Chinese, Hungarians ... Here they are, who are the heroes of Bolshevism! It turns out, who did not sleep at night all thought about Russia ... Hmm ... In short, the Russians are only interfering with them in the struggle for "Russian happiness"!

[L cornelius sulla]

Such articles (and comments to them) very clearly define: who is RUSSIAN with a thousand-year history; and who is just "Russian-speaking" (the poor term postsovka), for whom the story began in 1917.
By the way, at the expense of hunger:


In Soviet historiography, measures to combat the crisis were declared stupid and hopelessly late. Western estimates remained more restrained. For example, in the book of the American researcher Robinson Jr. “Famine in Russia, 1891–1892: The Imperial Government Responds to a Crisis”, the author concludes that the actions of the tsarist government in combating the crisis were no less effective than the actions of the British government aimed at to fight hunger in Ireland a few years later. Robinson writes:

The food operation was far from perfect, but it achieved the main goal facing any hunger strike campaign. Government support prevented the very real threat of mass deaths from starvation, kept mortality within acceptable limits, and saved the common economy in the regions affected by the disaster from collapse. The admiration for government efforts increases all the more when we recall that they were undertaken in the presence of significant institutional and political obstacles.

The Red Cross report did not record “not a single death directly from starvation, from the complete absence of any food, not to mention the cases of suicides or murders of children due to hunger, was not recorded once and nowhere”.

Yes, the St. Petersburg press did write about eating children by hungry parents. They wrote about Tatars selling their daughters into slavery (young men turned out to be slaveholders, and they called the payment for young slaves the obscure word "kalym"; the capital's journalists did not have time, however, to delve into the details). In the Volga region, peasants were distributed corn as food aid; in newspapers it was announced that peasants were given out cereals that even cattle did not want to eat (indeed, horses and cows, who had never seen corn before, did not immediately start eating it).

After 1891, having learned from bitter experience, the government decided to check newspaper articles with reports of starving. During the next crop failure of 1911, the local authorities, in response to the news appearing in newspapers, informed Petersburg:

Reports of starvation death in the village of Gruzinovo, the Saratov district, could not be verified, since there was no such village in the area.

Or this:

On December 28, 1911, in the Russkiye Vedomosti, the Volga-Kama Speech article from Spassky Uyezd was reprinted stating that in the village of Staro-Barinovsky 600 cattle, especially horses, fell from a nonsense. However, the village of Staro-Barinovsky was not in the county.

Or this:

The peasant Poreznov, who was reported to have hanged himself, was found alive and stated that he had learned from the newspapers about his attempted suicide.

And if there were no newspapers, he would have remained in ignorance.

It remains to add that under the influence of the ideas of Narodism in many magazines the main culprit of the famine was declared ... railways. Allegedly, the opportunity to export bread from the country doomed the peasants to starvation. How could bread be brought to starving villages quickly without railroads? The outraged public did not worry much about this straightforward question.

But they brought bread, and brought a lot of it.

The state in the barren provinces literally fed millions of people. Later, the Bolsheviks would be reluctant to allow American volunteers intending to feed the starving peasants in the Volga region; the tsarist government could not even think about abandoning the obligation to provide bread to the farmers in trouble. As one observer notes about a severe crop failure in the Samara province already in 1911:

The consequences of the crop failure would have affected the local population even more, the decline and ruin of the farms would have been complete if the government had not provided timely assistance with a loan for sowing, food and livestock feed. Without help, it would be impossible for the local peasant population to live as comparatively favorably as it turned out in practice: winter and spring are experienced without epidemiological diseases developing in places of hunger, without cattle mortality.

In 1906-07 the state spent 12 million rubles to help 128 barren provinces. In the same provinces for 12 months, alcohol worth 130 million rubles was drunk. The volume of deposits in savings accounts increased by 17 million. (For comparison, the new battleship cost 14,6 million). The magnitude of the famine is impressive.
In other words, the tales of the constant hunger of the peasantry and the complete indifference of the government to it are another example of the so-called lies. The Russian peasantry at the end of the XNUMXth century did not live well, and lean years led to a deterioration in the quality of food - this is true. Russia remained a backward country (compared to Western Europe), mass medicine was only in its infancy, and the peasants were defenseless against the waves of epidemics. But millions of starvation deaths for tsarist Russia were a nightmare that would become a reality even under the Bolsheviks.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Oper

In short, it turns out that the Russians only interfered with them in the struggle for "Russian happiness"!

Russia is a multinational state, and the Bolsheviks fought for the happiness of the entire working people of Russia, regardless of their nationality. The Bolsheviks fought a class war, not an interethnic one.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

alsheviks fought for the happiness of the entire working people of Russia, regardless of their nationality.

Taking from Russia and the Russians their hard-earned EARNINGS and giving this wealth to the unworking Ukrainians.
As a result, these wrestlers brought the Russians to millions of victims from the famine of 22,33,47 years to the Russian Cross and to the disaster of 91 g.

Remember, finally: no one ever fought for these wrestlers for their happiness - he did not charge!

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Remember, finally: no one ever fought for these wrestlers for their happiness - he did not charge!

But you all think that only the Bolsheviks fought for socialism, and you don’t want to admit that all the working masses of Russia, both Russians and non-Russians, seized the ideas of socialism. My grandfathers, Russians, they were not Bolsheviks, but they fought for socialism.
And the millions of victims of the hungry years on the conscience of your ancestors. He could not come to terms with the fact that they had been taken away the right to parasitize on the working people, and therefore they did harm and opposed the Soviet government in every way.

[RUSS]

Eternal glory to the hero of the Russian Land!

[Koshnitsa]

Alexander Green,
Relatives of the Cossacks traveled from Kuban right up to Yekaterinoslav? Rob lousy farm laborers?
A small lie gives rise to great distrust.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Relatives of the Cossacks traveled from Kuban right up to Yekaterinoslav? Rob lousy farm laborers?
A small lie gives rise to great distrust.

Did I write about Ekaterinovslav? You yourself came up with it. I wrote only one thing, that representatives of their families who looted rode in a train of Cossack formations.

[Koshnitsa]

Then you have to write where it was? Maybe it's near Berlin or at the Sinai during the Six Day War.
It is necessary to be exact, or in Ukraine anyhow to shave off?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

It is necessary to be exact, or in Ukraine anyhow to shave off?

Moreover, accuracy is here, everyone knows that the Cossacks, in their mass, were brought up by miners, simply: looters ...

[cost]

Koshnitsa: You have to be precise
Alexander Greene: Moreover, accuracy is here, everyone knows that the Cossacks, in their mass, were brought up by miners, simply: marauders ...

Where did such knowledge about the Cossack system come from? Hereditary? Ah, everyone knows that !? Well then, another thing!
"And here is the accuracy, everyone knows that" - here is your favorite argument
You know, how in the pages about such "experts" they say: - "sawdust"

[cost]

And the real 100% looters, Comrade Green, are your favorite revolutionary mercenaries-internationalists - Latvians, Estonians, Chinese, Hungarians. Yes, the soldiers of the 1st horse. That's who became famous for his robberies and pogroms. Makhno with Petlyura rest.
Here are two handsome men not hiding posing - one in an officer’s overcoat and a cap, the other dressed as a clown - in a Terek Sunzhen shirt, Abkhaz Circassian, on the head of a kuban. Not one place was robbed, at least four

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Rich

Here are two handsome men not hiding posing - one in an officer’s overcoat and a cap, the other dressed as a clown - in a Terek Sunzhen shirt, Abkhaz Circassian, on the head of a kuban. Not one place was robbed, at least four

What makes you think that this is a loot? There were many overcoats in the warehouses, and they donated the Circassian to Budyonny.
In the Red Army, they were shot for looting.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Rich

Where did such knowledge about the Cossack system come from? Hereditary? Ah, everyone knows that !?

Have you not read anything about the life of Zaporizhzhya or Don Cossacks? Read at least Sholokhov, how in the offensive for the White Cossacks their relatives rode and carts filled full of another's belongings.

[cost]

From the message of the military commissar of the 42nd division of the 13th army VN Cherny in December 1919: “There is not a single settlement visited by the Budenovites, where the continuous groan of residents would not be heard. Mass robberies, robbery and violence of the Budenovites The cavalrymen of the Concorpus units took away from the population (indiscriminately from the kulaks and the poor) clothes, felt boots, fodder (sometimes they did not leave even a pound of oats), food, without paying a penny. Breaking into chests, they took away women's linen, money, watches, tableware and so on. There were reports of rape and torture. " In January 1920, the First Cavalry Army occupied Rostov. RB Gul wrote: “The city suffocated in the murders and violence of the Budenovites who had grasped the joy of the soldiers' marauding.
The plenipotentiary representative of the Cheka in the North Caucasus Ya.H. Peters accused Budyonny of megalomania and of keeping women at the headquarters of the army "up to the street." The Cavalry Army was followed by a whole tail of wagons with looted property. There were about 120 such cars, according to I. N. Mironov, assistant to the chief of military communications of the front for political affairs. But the opinion of the commander of the army G. Ya. Sokolnikov: "... the partisan-Makhnovist formations of the Red Cavalry will present in the future an even greater military and political disadvantage than in the present, and will be, if not a direct instrument of political adventure, then at least a breeding ground for banditry and corruption. " And here is an excerpt from a letter from Voroshilov himself dated March 4, 1920: “For a number of reasons, banditry, throat-grabbing and even robbery continue to flourish in our country. We need workers and much more to get rid of these nightmarish phenomena. lately the army, of course, has been unsuitable for spiritual revival. "
Report of the head of the 8th Cavalry Division of the Chervonny Cossacks, V.M. Primakov, dated October 2, 1920: "I report that yesterday and today the 6th Division of the 1st Cavalry Army passed through the location of the division entrusted to me, which on the way makes massive robberies, murders Yesterday, over 30 people were killed in the Salnitsa borough, the chairman of the Revolutionary Committee and his family were killed, over 50 people were killed in the Lyubar borough. that the command staff is also taking part in the pogrom, the fight against the pogromists will obviously take the form of an armed clash between the Cossacks and the Budenovites. Yesterday I spoke with the division commander-6 (Apanasenko). The division commander told me that the commander of the division and several commanders were killed a few days ago his soldiers for shooting the bandits. The soldier masses do not listen to their commanders and, according to the divisional commander, no longer obey him. The 6th division goes to the rear with the slogans "beat the Jews, communists, commission ares and save Russia ", the name of Makhno is on the lips of the soldiers as the leader who gave this slogan." Budyonny appeared in the division only a week later. An Extraordinary Commission of Inquiry worked in the Cavalry. 387 people were arrested, 141 people, including 19 officers of the command staff, were sentenced to death. But these measures did not change the situation in the army. The opinion of P.Ya. Vitolin, an employee of the political inspectorate of the Southwestern Front, referring to December 1920: "The mood of the units, as one of the responsible party officials put it, is militant: beat the Jews and communists and save Russia. And, indeed, these two elements are intertwined.

Oral Report to the Chairman of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee. TO KALININ'S REPRESENTATIVE OF THE SPECIAL DEPARTMENT OF THE FIRST CAVIAR ARMY.15 October 1920g. m. Znamenka.

Now, after the disarmament of the 6 Cavalry Division, the dark element in the division still remains, and is campaigning for the bandits issued by the division to be released. We have very little strength, and if these remaining bandits want, they will be able to recapture those arrested.
It should also be noted that it is necessary to enable our departments to deal with bandits on the spot. We are just in the territory of Makhno. In the Ekaterinoslav lips. 2 prison I horse was unloaded. The bandits, knowing that their comrades were in prison, ran ahead and whispered in the army that the Budyonnovites were sitting in such a prison. Budyonnovtsy came and opened prisons ...
Alexander Green yet? Or is that enough?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Rich

Or is that enough?

Yes, a lot of de-r-ma smeared. Of course, bandits also fell, many Makhnovists and various "greens" poured into the Red Army, but I already wrote that they were shot for banditry. Write yourself

Quote: Rich

..141 people, including 19 representatives of the command staff were sentenced to death ....
Now, after the disarmament of the 6th cavalry division, the dark element in the division still remains, and is campaigning

So you need to correctly understand your information, because all this was not the rule, but the exception with which the Bolsheviks fought.

[Altona]

Quote: Olgovich

What was it?!

------------------------
Pavel just hit with a snuffbox? And Yusupov also fed Rasputin a cake of his own inspiration? Or do you insist on "overthrowing the tsar by the Bolsheviks," as the stupid propaganda wrote for the peasant mind?

[Koshnitsa]

And Stalin wrote in his "short course" that it was the Bolsheviks who made the February revolution. Lied chtoli?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And Stalin wrote in his "short course" that it was the Bolsheviks who made the February revolution. Lied chtoli?

Have you read the Short Course attentively? Cite a link where Stalin wrote that "the Bolsheviks made the February revolution"?

[Koshnitsa]

"Without three years of the greatest class battles and revolutionary energy
the Russian proletariat of 1905-1907 would not have been so fast, in
sense of completion of its initial stage, in a few days, the second
revolution, "Lenin pointed out (ibid., p. 13).
In the very first days of the revolution, Soviets appeared. Victorious revolution
relied on the Soviets of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies. Rebel workers and
soldiers created the Soviets of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies. 1905 revolution
showed that the Soviets are organs of armed insurrection and at the same time
it is time for the germ of a new, revolutionary power. The idea of ​​the Soviets lived in
the consciousness of the working masses, and they carried it out the very next day after
the overthrow of tsarism with the difference, however, that in 1905 were created
The councils of only workers' deputies, and in February 1917 on the initiative
Bolsheviks appeared Soviets of workers 'and soldiers' deputies.
While the Bolsheviks led the direct struggle of the masses on
the streets.
http://lib.ru/DIALEKTIKA/kr_vkpb.txt

[Koshnitsa]

And now there are the "communists" who are renouncing February. “The overthrow of the tsarist autocracy? The Bolsheviks have nothing to do with it! The tsar was forced to abdicate by the generals! ” “February revolution? What do you!? The Bolsheviks have nothing to do with it! Lenin at that time was abroad, Stalin was in exile. These are all liberals, the fifth column! ”

If they were in fact Communists, then they would answer such a charge as follows:

- Yes, the Bolsheviks really did more than anyone else to overthrow the tsarist autocracy - for the tsarist autocracy was completely reactionary and did not give the working class the opportunity to fight for their liberation!

Yes - the Bolsheviks really were the main driving force of the February revolution - for only through the bourgeois-democratic revolution could the proletariat come to the socialist revolution! Without February, there would be no October. February is the prologue of October!

We do not hide and are not ashamed of this, we are not going to make excuses for the revolution - neither for the February, nor for the October! We are proud that our predecessors - the Bolsheviks - led the fight against the bloodthirsty beast - Russian tsarism. The fact that they resolutely led the working people to fight him, that in February of the seventeenth year they were in the front ranks of those who “smashed the head of the vile monster!”

So the real communists would say in response to the malice of the enemies.

Instead, our "communists" behave like a confused from a film by Gaidai, who yells: "Innocent I!". They are humiliatingly making excuses to the average man. They tear the shirt on their chest, proving that they have nothing to do with the February Revolution, and the October Revolution was actually not a revolution - but a counter-revolution, the Bolsheviks - not revolutionaries - but counter-revolutionaries, who restored the country's imperial power.

Renouncing February, perverting its meaning, they also betray October. And they give a good trump card to the hands of the bourgeoisie, prompt the enemies of the working class - how to use the image of the October Revolution to fight the labor movement, for a new deception of the working people.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

If they were in fact Communists, then they would answer such a charge as follows:

There is a lot of pathos in your comment, but all your promises are wrong .. The Bolsheviks are just right in their assessment of the February revolution. The point is that revolutions are made not by parties or even classes, but by the people. And the Soviets were also created by the people. Besides, the Soviets appeared after the overthrow of the tsar, read carefully the Krat course: "The idea of ​​Soviets lived in the minds of the working masses, and they carried it out the very next day after the overthrow of tsarism."

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: Alexander Green

And people also created councils,

Not the people, but separate tiny groups of degenerates hostile to the bulk of the people.
So it will be right.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Not the people, but separate tiny groups of degenerates hostile to the bulk of the people.
That's right

This is yours, in the bourgeois style, because you do not consider working people for people.

[zena-iva]

there is nothing sadder and more shameful than the glorification of the White Guard bastard, who fought not with the Bolsheviks, but with the people, and therefore lost. touches the afftor’s remark that if the Wrangel had been alive by 1941 it would have fought on the side of the fascists, and yet the fascists fought not with the Bolsheviks, but with the people. I don’t see why to respect the traitors of my people.

[Catfish]

Quote: bistrov.

Quote: Koshnitsa

Lenin and his gop-company relied precisely on foreign mercenaries; foreigners did not fight at Wrangel.

What kind of "foreign mercenaries" did Lenin have?

Dear Comrade bistrov, Kosnitsa's colleague is not delusional. I won't say anything about the Chinese, I don't know, but everyone knew about the division of the notorious "Latvian Riflemen" in the Soviet Union. They even erected a monument to them in Riga. And one more thing: just before the October Revolution, a steamer with a battalion (800 men) of Finnish "volunteers" fully equipped and armed came to St. Petersburg from Helsingfors. And this is not "foreign mercenaries"? All of them, besides money, had their own "interest". Which, I hope, you understand yourself.

And the last: do not poke at strangers. Keep yourself within.

[Victor Milord]

Von Wrangeli - a baronial clan of Danish (according to other sources, Swedish) origin, who resettled in the XII century. to Estonia. Their motto was: “I will break - but I will not bend.”