Varygs and Rus "Tale of Bygone Years"

177
X-XI centuries are a very interesting period in stories our country. Familiar names are constantly found in Western European and Byzantine sources of the time, and some Russian princes are heroes of the Scandinavian sagas. At that time, contacts between Kievan Rus and the Scandinavian countries were especially close.

It should be said that from the end of the 8th to the middle of the 11th centuries, the pagan and economically backward Scandinavia managed to exert a tremendous influence on the development and course of history in the countries of Western and Eastern Europe. Scandinavian warships, like ghosts, appeared on the coasts, but could pass along rivers and into the interior of the country - Paris, far from the sea, for example, was ransacked four times by the Danes. The Catholic cathedral in Metz 1 in May 888 decided to include in official prayers the words "that were not required to be written on parchment; wherever the Vikings came at least once, they were forever imprinted on the tables of people's hearts" (Gwin Jones): "God save me us from the fury of the Normans. "



Varygs and Rus "Tale of Bygone Years"


In Western Europe, militant newcomers were called Normans ("northern people"), in Russia - Varangians (perhaps from the Norse varing - "squad", or from varar - "oath"; or from West Slavic - varang - "sword"), in Byzantium - Verings (probably from the same root as the Vikings).


Sword found in a viking tomb (Norway)


Interestingly, the Swedish scientist A. Stringolm considered the words "Varangian" and "Guard" to be one-root:

"The name of the Vikings is the easiest and most natural to form from, in the old Swedish laws, the meeting word vaeria - to protect, defend, or from varda - to guard, to protect; from this varda, according to another pronunciation garda, the word Gardingi probably originates, meaning in ancient Westtigian laws of royal bodyguards, hence Garde - Guard. "


Regardless of the nationality of the Scandinavian warriors marching on a campaign, they were called the Vikings (most likely from the Old Norse vic - “bay”, but perhaps from vig - “war”).


Hrolve A pedestrian who became the Norman duke of Rollo, the most successful and famous Viking of Scandinavia - a monument in Alesund, Norway


The North-Western Russian lands, open from the Baltic Sea to the Scandinavian invasions, also experienced all the “charms” of their geographical position. Slovenia (of which Novgorod was the main city) and allied or vassal Finno-Ugric tribes to them more than once were subjected to raids by the Normans. Historians believe that the last time Novgorod was captured by the Normans at the end of the IX century. As a result of the uprising of the townspeople, they were expelled from the city, however, if you believe the information given in the "Tale of Bygone Years", the situation in the land was at that time extremely tense. Taking advantage of the weakening of Novgorod, the tribes, previously subject to him, refused to pay tribute, in the city itself the citizens who lost their property attacked the homes of wealthy merchants, they hired guards, and sometimes there were real battles. Tired of the strife, city residents decided to call on the ruler from the side who could, firstly, become a disinterested arbiter in their disputes and, secondly, lead the national militia in the event of a resumption of hostilities.

To which of the neighbors could contact Novgorod? The Tale of Bygone Years directly calls the Varangian tribe Rus. And this only evidence has become literally a curse of Russian history. “The Tale of Bygone Years” our “patriots” –the Antinormanists do not trust to the end, but they do not dare to declare it an unreliable source and deduce from historical circulation. It would seem that it has long been proved that the role of the prince in Novgorod of those times was reduced to military leadership and arbitration. So, whoever Rurik is of origin, it’s completely wrong to speak about his authoritarian rule and decisive influence on the formation of Russian statehood. Recognition of this fact should have long eased the urgency of the discussion. In fact, neither German origin of Catherine II, nor her complete absence of rights to the Russian throne, perturb us. However, the Norman problem has long gone beyond rationality and is a problem not so much historical as psychopathological.

By the way, in 2002, an interesting study was conducted. The fact is that the original Y chromosome is transmitted by hundreds and thousands of generations unchanged, and only through the male line. DNA analysis showed that people who are considered descendants of Rurik belong to two completely different branches of population markers, that is, they are descendants of two different ancestors along the male line. Vladimir Monomakh, for example, has a Scandinavian genetic marker N, and his uncle Sviatoslav has a Slavic R1a. This can serve as confirmation of the well-known assumption that the continuity of the dynasty of Rurikovich and the family ties known to us from textbooks, most likely, is a historical myth. But we digress.

When reading Scandinavian sources, an unexpected fact is striking: the sagas are not aware of the vocation of the Normans in Novgorod. They know about the Baptism of Russia even in distant Iceland, but they don’t even suspect about such a significant event, even in neighboring Sweden. You can still try to find candidates for the role of Rurik and Oleg (at the level of guesswork and assumptions), but later Igor and Svyatoslav who ruled later are completely unknown to the Scandinavians. The first Russian prince, who can be identified with full confidence in the sagas - Vladimir Svyatoslavich, and for the Scandinavians, he was not "his". And his name has no Scandinavian counterpart. If we assume that Vladimir is still a direct descendant of the first Norman king, called up to Novgorod, then it must be admitted that by this time the Scandinavians in Russia had finally assimilated and slandered. There is nothing surprising in this: in Normandy, the descendants of Hrolv and his warriors, too, were French, and after a generation, they even forgot their own language - in order to teach the grandson the "northern dialect" Khrolvu had to invite a teacher from Scandinavia. But during the reign of Yaroslav the Wise, Scandinavians again come to Russia in large numbers - now as “condottier”, offering their services to anyone who can pay for their willingness to fight and die. And some Russian princes even have second names - Scandinavian names. The son of Yaroslav the Wise, Vsevolod, is known in Scandinavia as Holti (this name was probably given to him by his mother, the Swedish princess Ingigerd). And the son of Vladimir Monomakh, Mstislav, the Scandinavians know how Harald (probably, the "anglianki" Gita named him in honor of her father - Harold Godwinson).


Son of Vladimir Monomakh Mstislav - Harald


It is noteworthy that the Scandinavians themselves did not know any Rus and no "Ros people": they called themselves Sveons, Danes, Normans (Norwegians: Norway - "Country Along the Northern Path"), and the Russian lands - with the word "Gardariki" ("Country of Cities" ). The Slavs also did not call themselves Russes at that time: there lived a glade in Kiev, Krivichi lived in Kiev, Smolensk, Polotsk and Pskov, Slovenia in Novgorod, etc. Only at the beginning of the XII century, the author of the Tale of Bygone Years identifies the fields with the Rus: “the clearing, even the invincible Russia.” At the same time, he reports that the Novgorodians, who were formerly Slavs, were “conjured up”:

"Novgorodians are the same people from the Varangian family, and before that were Slovenes."


So, most likely, there were no “vocations” of the Vikings from Scandinavia, but there are no doubts about the presence of people of Scandinavian origin on the territory of Ancient Russia, and even there are “Rus” somewhere there.

In the Berta annals, for example, it is reported that in 839 the embassy of the Byzantine emperor Theophilus arrived at the court of the Frankish emperor Louis the Pious, and with him the people "who said that their people were growing up (Rhos) and who, as they said, , their king, named Hakan (Scandinavian name Hakon? Turkic title Hagan?), sent to him (Theophilus) for the sake of friendship "(Prudentius). Acquainted with the ambassadors of the "people of the Ros" closer, the Franks came to the conclusion that they are sveonami.

In 860, according to Greek and Western European sources, the army of the “people of Ros” made a campaign against Constantinople.


Dew besieged Constantinople


Patriarch Photius in the "Circular Message" to eastern archbishops wrote that the Russians had left the "northern country", living far from the Greeks, behind many countries, navigable rivers, and the seas devoid of shelter. Religious tradition connects this campaign with the so-called miracle of immersion in the sea of ​​the cover of the Most Holy Theotokos - supposedly after this a storm arose, which sank the enemy fleet. However, the contemporaries of this miracle is not known - everyone is sure of the defeat of the Byzantines. Pope Nicholas I reproached Michael III for the fact that the newcomers left unforgiven, and Patriarch Photius, who was at the time of military operations in Constantinople, argued that "the city was not taken by their (Rossi) grace." He also spoke about Ross in his sermon: "The people of no name, not considered for anything, unknown, but received a name from the time of the campaign against us ... reached brilliant heights and incalculable wealth - oh, what a disaster sent to us from God" . ("Two Conversations of the Most Holy Patriarch of Constantinople Photius on the Occasion of the Ross Invasion"). Venetian Doge Chaplain John Deacon (XI century) claims that during the reign of Michael III, the Normans attacked Constantinople, who, coming on the 360 ships, "fought the neighborhood of the city, ruthlessly killed many people and returned home in triumph."


The Emperor Michael III, whom the Pope reproached for leaving the Russians unmoved


Chronicler of the tenth century Liutpraund Cremona is no less categorical: "The Greeks call the Russos the people whom we call Nordmannos according to their place of residence." "The people of Ros" he placed next to the Pechenegs and the Khazars.

In The Rhymed Chronicle of the Dukes of Norman, written around 1175 by the poet Benoit de Saint-More, it says:

Between the Danube, the ocean and the land of the Alans
there is an island called Scansi
and I believe that this is the land of Russia.
Like bee hives,
They take off in huge mighty swarms
from thousands and thousands of fierce fighters,
and rush into battle, drawing their swords,
inflamed with anger
as one for all and all for one.
This great nation
can attack big countries
and give fierce battles
and win glorious victories.


Bishop Adalbert calls the famous princess Olga, who ruled the land of the field, the queen not of the Slavs, but of the Rus. At the same time, Adalbert reports that the Ruses are a people whose western part perished in Norik (a Roman province on the right bank of the Upper Danube) and in Italy in the 5th century. By the way, on the territory of Ukraine (under the Covel), archaeologists discovered one of the most ancient Scandinavian runic inscriptions known to science - on the tip of a spear, it dates back to the 3rd-4th centuries AD.

A number of historians believe that the ethnonyms and the names of the Russians indicate their German-speaking. Proof of this, in their opinion, can serve as the fact that the names of the Dnieper rapids in the essay "On Government Management" of the Byzantine Emperor Constantine Bagryanonnogo (X century) are given "in Russian" (Essupy, Ulvoren, Gelandri, Eyfar, Varuforos, Leanty, Struvun) and "in Slavonic" (Ostrov ¬ niprah, Unclear, Wulniprah, Veruci, Naprezi).


Constantine Porphyrogenitus. In his work, the names of the Dnieper rapids are given "in Russian" and "in Slavonic"


Two thresholds, Gelandri and Varuforos, which MP In the XIX century, Pogodin called "two pillars that will always support Normans and withstand any kind of ax". His opponent N.A. Dobrolyubov responded to this statement with the ironic poem "Two Pillars":

Gelandri and Varuforos - these are my two pillars!
They put my theory on fate.
Thresholds this name so Leberg explained
From the language of Norman, that there is no force to argue.
Of course, the Greek author could have misinterpreted them,
But he could, against custom, and correctly write.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Gelandri and Varuforos are bulls, so to speak,
Oh koby you beat in vain fists.


In fact, at the present time we managed to translate the names of all the thresholds into the modern Russian language. But, in order to save time, I will give the translation of the names of only two thresholds, referred to in this poem: Gelandri (giallandi) - "Noise Poro"; Varuforos - baruforos ("strong wave") or varuforos ("high rock"). Another threshold (Eifors - "Eternally furious", "Ever rustling") is interesting because its name is present in the runic inscription on the Pilgard stone (Gotland).

Eastern sources also report the differences between the Slavs and the Rus: the Arabs called the Slavs the word "Sakaliba", while the Russians have always been Russians and stand apart, being dangerous opponents for the Khazars, Arabs, and Slavs. In the VII century. Bal'ami reports that in 643 the ruler of Derbent Shahriyar said during negotiations with the Arabs:

"I am between two enemies: one is the Khazars, the other is the Russians, who are enemies of the whole world, especially the Arabs, and no one knows how to fight with them except the people here."


Khazar king Joseph in the middle of the tenth century. He wrote to his Spanish correspondent Hasdai ibn Shafrut:

"I live at the entrance to the river and do not allow Russians arriving on ships to infiltrate them (the Ishmaelites) ... I am fighting a stubborn war. If I were alone, they would destroy the entire Ismaili country to Baghdad."



Viking ship. Illustration: from the 10th century manuscript


The tenth-century Persian scholar Ibn Ruste unequivocally points out the difference between Rus and Slavs: "The Rus make raids on the Slavs: approach them in boats, disembark them and take them captive, take them to Bulgaria and Khazaria and sell them there. They don’t have them, and they feed on the fact that they are brought from the land of the Slavs ... Their only business is trade in furs. They dress untidy, the men wear golden bracelets. Slaves are treated well. They have many cities and live in the open. They are tall, prominent and courageous, but they show that courage not horse - all their raids and campaigns they make on the ships. "



The information given in this passage characterizes the Rus as typical Vikings. Al-Marwazi, the author of the end of the 9th century, writes about the fact that the Ruses prefer to fight on ships:

"If they had horses, and they were riders, they would be a terrible scourge of humanity."


In 922, the envoy of the Baghdad Caliph Ibn-Fadlan visited Volga Bulgaria.



On the Volga, he met the Rus and described their constitution, clothing, weapons, customs, customs and religious rites in some detail. Moreover, "throughout the description of the Rus on the Volga, reported to us by Ibn-Fadlan ... we meet the Normans in the image of them by the French and the British of the same time ... the Arabs from the east seem to give a hand to these writers" (Frenn).


Semiradsky G. "The Funeral of the Noble Rus"

It is also indicated that there were differences between Russians and Slavs at the household level: the Ruses washed their heads in the general basin, shaved their heads, leaving a shred of hair on the crown, lived in military settlements and “fed” on military booty. The Slavs, on the other hand, washed themselves under running water, cut their hair in a circle, engaged in farming and cattle breeding. By the way, Olga's son - Prince Svyatoslav, judging by the Byzantine descriptions, was precisely the Rus:

"I had one shred of hair on my head, as a sign of his noble birth."



Svyatoslav had one shred of hair on his head as a sign of noble birth. Monument to Svyatoslav in the Belgorod region. Arch. Fangs


The author of the Arab source “Hudud al Alem” (“Limits of the World”), who reports that some residents of the first city in the east of the country of the Slavs are similar to the Rus, also knows that Russes and Slavs belong to different nations.

So, some people of Scandinavian origin, constantly lived in the neighborhood of the Slavic tribes. Since they are nowhere called Normans, or Swedes, or Danes, and they didn’t call themselves that, it can be assumed that they were settlers from different Scandinavian countries, united only by a common for all "northern" language, a uniform way of life and temporary common interests.


Scandinavian colonists


They could call themselves rodsmen (sailors, oarsmen), the Finns called them ruotsi (“people or warriors in boats” - in modern Finnish they call this word Sweden, and Russia - Venaja), Slavic tribes - Rus. That is, "Rus" in the "Tale of Bygone Years" is not the name of a tribe, but a clarification of the occupation of the Varangians. Probably, the prince's warriors were originally called the Rus (with whom the Byzantines, the Finns, the Slavs, and other nations were forced to “get to know” - regardless of their nationality. Norwegians, Swedes, Estonians, glades, Drevlyans, Krivichi, and even if they were Biarma - after joining the squad, they all became Rus. And from that moment on, the interests of the squad for them were above the interests of the tribe. And very many people wanted to enter the prestigious and highly paid princely military service. The story with the spoons of Prince Vladimir has already become boring for everyone, and has "filled the teeth with teeth". But this is what the author of the Rotten Skin manuscript tells about the orders at the court of his son Jaroslaw: a warrior brings Magnus (the future king of Norway) to the room where Yaroslav sleeps and throws him on the prince’s bed with the words: "Better keep your fools at another time" . And Yaroslav, instead of letting him in the neck, order to carve at the stable or at least fine him in the amount of a monthly salary, meekly replies: "Often you choose obscene words for him" (however, it was difficult to do without "obscene words" , in the next article I will talk about what happened, but Yaroslav doesn’t know about it yet. Readers who know what's the matter, I beg you not to comment, wait a few days to keep the intrigue). As we can see, the status of professional warriors in those years was so high that they would gladly agree to call and consider themselves even Huns, even Sarmatians, even Nibelungs. But, according to the old memory and traditions of the first princely warriors, they were called Russes. In the future, this name was transferred to the entire population of the country.

Where did the Varangians were come to Novgorod from? B. Bogoyavlensky and K. Mitrofanov in their work "The Normans in Russia before Vladimir the Saint" came to the conclusion that the "Ruses" referred to in The Tale of Bygone Years were people of Scandinavian origin who lived in the area of ​​Old Ladoga (Aldeygyuborg - Old city). The aforementioned authors suggest that Ladoga played the role of a hub for floating and traveling Scandinavians, an international trade center. According to Swedish sources, this city was founded in 753. Tradition connects its foundation with the god Odin, but, in fact, of course, the people from Uppsala built Aldeygyuborg. It lived in it, the Swedes kolbyagi (culling or kolfingi - "spearmen"), which were soon joined by the Norwegians and given, and in the surrounding villages - the Finns. The presence of Scandinavians in Ladoga is confirmed by numerous finds of runic records dating back to the beginning of the 9th century. We also add that, according to the latest archaeological research, on the White Lake and the Upper Volga, the Normans appeared a century before the Slavs.


Norman settlement, reconstruction


Both Slavs and Scandinavians went to Ladoga at the same time: first - as members of robber squads, then - as merchants, and finally, as administrators and organizers of collecting taxes from local tribes.



Normans and Slavs met off the shores of Lake Ladoga, but the Scandinavians came earlier, moreover, Ladoga’s geographical position was more advantageous. Therefore, in the dispute: Slovenian Novgorod against the international Aldeygüborg initially dominated the latter, his kings seized Novgorod more than once. But still, Novgorod won. According to some Scandinavian sources, the first Russian ruler, who subdued Ladoga, was Prophetic Oleg, who drove away the sea king Eirik who seized the city. But this submission, apparently, was an episode. Finally, Prince Vladimir joined Ladogu in the Russian possessions in 995 by committing an act opposite to the “vocation of the Varyags”. This led to the fact that Gardariki-Rus became much better known in the Scandinavian countries and began to play a role in the politics of these countries. When Olav Tryggvason (a friend and ally of Vladimir) came to power in Norway, his enemy Jarl Eirik attacked Ladoga in retaliation, took the city and ruined its surroundings. It was this raid that caused the center of commerce to shift even more from Ladoga to the less convenient, but more secure Novgorod.


Vasnetsov A.M. "Old Veliky Novgorod"


At the same time, the Ruses and the Varangians, although these words were at first, as synonyms, were not fully identified by the chroniclers: "Igor having copied many, Varyags and Russia and Polyany and Slovani ... (944)." That is, it turns out that the Ruses are the entire population of the Ladoga region, and the Varangians are members of organized squads, independent, or entering the service of any prince. Moreover, after the accession of Ladoga, the Vikings began to call it the newcomers from the Scandinavian countries. Russ also quickly dissolved in the Slavic Sea, leaving behind only a name.

In the modern commentary on the fundamental work of A. Stringingol "Viking campaigns", the Russian historian A. Khlevov writes:

In Russian history, the question of the participation of the Scandinavian warriors in the genesis of the Old Russian state acquired a painful and highly politicized, emotionally saturated form of the so-called Norman problem ... The end of the discussion was laid by acknowledging the facts that:

a) the resettlement of Slavs and Scandinavians among the autochthonous Finns and Balts took place almost simultaneously, counter-directionally and had basically the same character (pumping tribute from the local population with a predominance of Slavic colonization and settlement beginning);

b) the state matured quite naturally, not needing any cultural "first-hand impulses", and it arose initially as a mechanism for regulating the tribal-power equilibrium and as a means of streamlining transit trade along the Volga Route and the Path from the Varangians to the Greeks;

c) Scandinavians made an important contribution to the formation of Ancient Russia precisely as highly professional warriors, imparting originality and color to the emerging state and successfully harmonizing with the spiritual component that came from Byzantium "(academician DS Likhachev even suggested the term Skandovizantia).




The natural course of events led to the complete assimilation of the Rus by more numerous Slavs and the formation on this basis of a public education, which the 19th century Russian historians gave the conditional name of Kievan Rus.
177 comments
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  1. VLR
    +7
    30 July 2018 07: 04
    Afterword: the theme of the Norman presence in Russia "did not let go" after completing the work on the article "The War of the Children of St. Vladimir through the eyes of the authors of the Scandinavian sagas." It turned out that it was supposed to be the second article of the cycle, or - part of the one that became the third. And the first part of the cycle is the work offered to your attention now. I hope that you will learn something new from these articles. I tried to write in such a way that it was easy and interesting to read these works.
    1. +16
      30 July 2018 08: 40
      the Vikings and Varangians didn’t even have a single toponym except muddy paper census lists. The people are ready, who smashed everybody in Europe, too, almost did not leave any names. Like the Swedes should be Goths, but the Swedes did not want to be Goths. although Russophobia robbed them of their self-name remained for centuries to the present day. For tishniks always all the names and civilizational terms that distinguish civilization from primitive communities in the Russian language belong either to the Greeks or Latins, or to the Vikings, and the Russians themselves nd not created and all borrowed, but they themselves are preserved, and all these Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Normans perished and disappeared in the centuries but left a heap of any chronicles.
      It’s especially funny about the word “cattle,” until the Vikings said what cattle are called Russian idiots, Russian cattle did not.
      The name _Russian_ itself has quite confirmation on the ground, for example, the Memel River was previously called the lower reaches of the Rus and there is still a city there in the Rus delta, but there are no cities with the name Viking on the earth and it never has been. This suggests that All Norman stories are the invention of the Germans of the E2 period.



      But the local storytellers, Russophobia, are eager to try and chatting that the Russians were descended from the Varangians. Local talkers are not even able to master the proof made by the historians Fomenko and Nosovsky according to the Radzivilov annals. They found that the Radzivilov’s chronicle is the late falsification and falsification of the pages from the Normans. temporary reference to modern chronology.
      1. +5
        30 July 2018 08: 54
        When did labeling lead to something good?

        You confidently distinguish “Russophobes” from “Slavophiles”? What are the signs?
        1. +2
          30 July 2018 08: 57
          Quote from Korsar4
          When did labeling lead to something good?

          You confidently distinguish “Russophobes” from “Slavophiles”? What are the signs?


          what's so hard to figure out? Russophiles are those who deduced Russian civilization from the Russians, and Russophobes / Westerners / Normanists those who Ruski denied their own roots.
          If you do not understand phyla and phobes, then there is always a translator.
          1. 0
            30 July 2018 09: 08
            Are you sure that, for example, Khomyakov would agree with this criterion of division?
            1. +1
              30 July 2018 09: 12
              Quote from Korsar4
              Are you sure that, for example, Khomyakov would agree with this criterion of division?


              so you ask him ...
              1. +3
                30 July 2018 09: 16
                Traditionally polite, reasoned answers.

                You're right. It makes sense to re-read Khomyakov.
              2. 0
                30 July 2018 09: 19
                There is also such an opinion that inspires confidence in me (~ 3: 40):
      2. 0
        30 July 2018 11: 46
        Are you sure of that? But Scandinavian scientists believe otherwise. There are many left ...
        1. +3
          30 July 2018 14: 10
          Quote: kalibr
          But Scandinavian scientists believe otherwise.

          Have they already thawed? laughing
          1. -1
            30 July 2018 18: 29
            Are you trying to show a sense of humor here? You kind of dumb ... It’s clear that there are those who are studying this issue. There are Viking culture museums in Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm in Iceland, in York. There are their sites. Come there, read the work of their researchers posted there.
            1. +1
              30 July 2018 20: 18
              Quote: kalibr
              Are you trying to show a sense of humor here?

              When the glacier retreated, it was inhabited by tribes from the south. Frozen - do not come to life.
              Here's a map for you: http://fotohosting.su/images/2018/07/30/003-europ
              e-500-400.gif
              1. +2
                30 July 2018 20: 19
                And here's another: http://fotohosting.su/images/2018/07/30/006-europ
                e-300-0.gif

                The Slavs were long before the Scandinavians, and the fact that they have a museum, so you go to modern Ukraine - you will not even see it.
          2. -1
            30 July 2018 22: 22
            Pulled off, and already repeatedly.
          3. +2
            31 July 2018 10: 38
            Of particular interest is the red dashed line (glaciation of the Middle Pleistocene). On the maps of the XV-XVI centuries. it was this line that was depicted ... Riphean mountains, which scientists agreed to consider the Ural mountains simply because in European Russia there are no other mountains at all wink That is why in the play Lope de Vega through these mountains Marina Mnishek goes to Moscow to Demetrius laughing
            Nosovsky and Fomenko urgently need to prove that the ice age in real life ended only 1000 years ago!
      3. 0
        30 July 2018 21: 06
        Quote: Bar1
        from the Vikings and the Vikings, there was not even a single toponym other than the muddy paper rewritten lists.

        Timur, I will answer you briefly: you are mistaken. EVERY people delivered a bunch of place names for themselves. just not professionals do not know about it. There are toponyms and Gothic, and "Russian", etc.
        1. +1
          30 July 2018 22: 46
          Quote: Warrior2015
          Timur, I will answer you briefly: you are mistaken. EVERY people delivered a bunch of place names for themselves. just not professionals do not know about it. There are toponyms and Gothic, and "Russian", etc.


          Well, well, I wonder, I'll start, and you continue
          -Gotland ...
      4. -1
        4 August 2018 11: 32
        The ethnonym ros / rus was first called in the compilation work “Church History” by an unknown Syrian author (Pseudo-Zachariah), who used the Greek original of Zakharia Mitilensky's work that had not reached us. This work was written in Mesopotamia in the city of Amida and dated to 555 AD. The seventh chapter of the 12-th book is composed independently by the Syrian author. It contains information about the peoples living in the "northern countries", ie beyond the Caucasus mountains. The author received information about them from two residents of Amad who were sold by the Persians as slaves to the “Huns” after they captured this Byzantine city in 503. Beyond the Caspian Gate north of the Caucasus Mountains, the captives lived for over 30 years and married local women there. Pseudo-Zachariah lists 13 of the “Hunnic" peoples, and these data, as noted by all researchers, deserve full trust, as they are confirmed by many authors of that time. Representatives of the peoples who lived further to the north, the informants of the Syrian historian were very vague. Following the list of “Hunnic” peoples, Pseudo-Zachariah names Amazarats, dog people, and to the north and west of their Amazonids - Amazons. The closest neighbors of the latter were the people of Hros (Hrus) - “men with huge limbs who have no weapons and who cannot wear horses because of their limbs”
        In general, the Norman theory does not stand up to criticism, but they cling to it with all their might, well, Russians cannot be independent, they must be led by someone.
        Despite the seemingly fantastic information of the Pseudo-Zacharias, many historians believed that somewhere near the Tanais (Don) and the Meotian Lake (Sea of ​​Azov), where the Amazons are traditionally localized by ancient authors, the Hros / Hrus people lived (Marquart, 1903. C. 365 , 382, 385; Vernadsky, 1996. S. 155-156, 268). G.V. Vernadsky saw in the dew the Alanian tribe, A.P. Dyakonov (1939. S. 83-90) and N.V. Pigulevskaya (1952. S. 42 ^ 48; 2000. S. 361-369) considered this people as a Slavic-Ant tribe. According to the description of Pseudo-Zachariah, N.V. claimed Pigulevskaya, they were tall, strong, walking people - the Byzantine authors of the VI century, in particular Procopius of Caesarea and John of Ephesus, characterize these features of the Slavs and Antes. The researcher drew attention to the fact that in the stories about the Amazons, available in the works of many ancient authors, their neighbors always turn out to be the real peoples of the Northern Black Sea region of the corresponding time. In Herodotus these are Scythians, in Pseudo-Kallisfen - one of the Hun tribes (“people with blue eyes”, and not actually “ugly Huns”), in the case of the VI century Syrian author. - Russ / dew. Interestingly, the Spanish-Arab encyclopedist of the XI century. al-Bakri neighbors of the Amazons is also the people of ar-rus.
      5. 0
        24 February 2019 16: 27
        Quote: Bar1
        historians Fomenko and Nosovsky

    2. +2
      30 July 2018 10: 26
      I wonder what is it? Drawing on papyrus or paper, image on wood, can image on parchment? In general, it was written completely in Russian, despite the fact that most likely this is a Byzantine image.
      -Konstantin ostseo (ostenen) autocrator
      -Jesus Christ
      -Vasileus Roma and he
      the letter _P_ is written completely in Russian, and the letter _N_ was written in Russian chronicles and images as _N_

    3. +2
      30 July 2018 11: 54
      Very interesting and reasoned material, dear Valery. I enjoyed reading it a lot!
    4. +4
      30 July 2018 11: 59
      Author, please do not write more, for reading your graphomania is a real pain. You are so free to use the sources and so irresponsibly suck conclusions from your finger that your work cannot be considered not only scientific, but even journalistic. Once again I kindly ask you, do not engage in graphomania, do not write more. Even the works of Shpakovsky (caliber) on Japanese medieval weapons and armor (very weak, by the way), in comparison with your this article, seem exemplary.
      Seriously, don't take this gag anymore, please.
      1. VLR
        +7
        30 July 2018 16: 07
        Why don't you just read my work? Nobody forces you. Moreover, this is a good way to get rid of me - you and others do not read my articles, do not discuss them, the editors see that they are not interesting to readers and cease to publish them. Try it, I think you will like it. Why and why decide for others? Act for yourself! By the way, I’m happy to read your exemplary and flawless articles, and perhaps learn from their example. Any? Give me a link please.
        1. +2
          31 July 2018 10: 42
          Quote: VlR
          By the way, I am pleased to read your model and impeccable articles, and perhaps learn from their example.

          As good vinegar is obtained from bad wine, so a good critic is obtained from a bad writer (I. Kant). I myself sometimes reasonedly criticize separate moments in your articles - but in general I recognize them quite good quality, and Rakti-Kali chills them indiscriminately, without giving a single concrete example of inaccuracy! Write further and do not listen to anyone! drinks
          1. -1
            31 July 2018 12: 13
            Quote: Weyland
            As good vinegar is obtained from bad wine, so a good critic is obtained from a bad writer (I. Kant). I myself sometimes sometimes reasonably criticize certain points in your articles - but on the whole I admit their quite good quality, and Rakti-Kali hears them indiscriminately without giving any concrete example of inaccuracy!

            In order to give a reasoned answer to all the author’s assumptions, I would have to write an article the size of "wider" and with the base "lower", which I did not set myself the task, which is why I limited myself to such a brief and, perhaps, too emotional review.
            But, as they say, “according to Senka, there’s a hat,” the author is too loose on the data and interprets it too one-sidedly. There has not yet come to a consensus, “Rus”, “Varangians” are tribal or class-status designations, and the author has already determined everything by his willful decision - “Rus” is Scandinavians and not Slavs ... And why not Slavs, the same slavish? Why not the Baltics? Why not the Germans of the western Baltic region? Why not representatives of the Iranian-speaking peoples of the Black Sea? It’s interesting to read your posts, because you operate on facts and do not pass off your assumptions as facts.
            1. +1
              31 July 2018 15: 21
              Quote: Rakti-Kali
              It’s interesting to read your posts, because you operate on facts and do not pass off your assumptions as facts.

              Thank you, but not quite deservedly. For example, my post about the duel between Achilles and Memnon (in the article about the Tauri) is based purely on a comprehensive logical analysis of the historical situation - but I have no and cannot have factual material! wink
              1. 0
                31 July 2018 17: 17
                Quote: Weyland
                Thank you, but not quite deservedly. For example, my post about the duel between Achilles and Memnon (in the article about the Tauri) is based purely on a comprehensive logical analysis of the historical situation - but I have no and cannot have factual material!

                Sometimes the process itself gives pleasure. laughing
          2. 0
            7 February 2020 18: 09
            but I don’t agree with you, too free interpretation of historical events, far-fetched, where possible. Any assumptions become an axiom. One inaccuracy gives rise to another, and all this material is built on all this heap of shaky assumptions and assumptions.
      2. +2
        30 July 2018 17: 12
        Do not like do not read, they always say so.
      3. +1
        6 September 2018 07: 29
        Quote: Rakti-Kali
        You are so free to use sources and so irresponsibly suck conclusions from your finger that your work cannot be considered not only scientific, but even journalistic

        By your post it’s clear that you’re in the subject. So write your vision of this period of history. And so your post looks like criticism. And people will be interested to know another point of view.
  2. +2
    30 July 2018 07: 28
    Unfortunately, the history of Russia has too often been revised and it is now very difficult to understand where the true story is and where it is invented.
    Take at least Novgorod and its inhabitants
    An outstanding expert on the history of Novgorod, our contemporary academician Valentin Lavrentievich Yanin writes in one of his articles about it this way: “The features of the Novgorod dialect are most pronounced in the texts of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, and later they gradually disappear as a result of contacts with other East Slavic dialects . The search for analogues to the features of the Novgorod dialect led to the conclusion that the ancestors of medieval Novgorod moved from the territory of modern Poland and Northern Germany. ”

    It turns out the Novgorodians. descendants of the "Europeans" and what is surprising in the fact that they invited Rurik to riches?
    1. 0
      30 July 2018 09: 22
      Quote: svp67
      It turns out the Novgorodians. descendants of the "Europeans" and what is surprising in the fact that they invited Rurik to riches?


      in general, Russian and European are the concepts of antagonisms. If you take German place names, then all of Germany is riddled with Russian names, so do not confuse one with the other, even Yanin did not name the inhabitants of Germany as Europeans.
      as for the Novgorod and, accordingly, Western similar dialects, we need to figure out what sources Janin used to say this. Is it really from the Lusatian Srbs who still live in Saxony that something remains from the sources?

      1. +4
        30 July 2018 13: 54
        Quote: Bar1
        Germany is riddled with Russian names


        why everywhere are "Russian", and not Russian ...
        Is it a pose like this or like ... :)
        to write competently and modernly in Russian is no longer fashionable ...

        reading such authors - "it is difficult to believe in their Latin" (c)
        1. +1
          30 July 2018 15: 38
          Quote: Sedoy
          Quote: Bar1
          Germany is riddled with Russian names


          why everywhere are "Russian", and not Russian ...
          Is it a pose like this or like ... :)
          to write competently and modernly in Russian is no longer fashionable ...

          reading such authors - "it is difficult to believe in their Latin" (c)


          nnda buddy, from the new ones? name at least one rule by which to double consonants in this word?
          1. +2
            30 July 2018 16: 34
            As for the rules, the school was taught like this.

            Root: rus, suffix - sc.

            Although, I personally feel cool about the rules. But this does not eliminate the need for competent presentation.
            1. +1
              30 July 2018 17: 17
              Quote from Korsar4
              As for the rules, the school was taught like this.

              Root: rus, suffix - sc.

              Although, I personally feel cool about the rules. But this does not eliminate the need for competent presentation.


              in the word _Russian_ there is neither a root nor a suffix. As far as I know, no one has called Russian, Russian. The word _Russian_ itself is a proper name and is not divided into root and suffix.
              In the annals - Radzivilovskaya
              -Russian land.
              writers 19v Muravyov, Shishkov wrote _Russian_
              Well, the most important thing is the doubling of consonants is the GERMAN rule from which it is necessary to leave, as from not ours, the word _Russian_ is clearly the opposite translation from German.
              1. +1
                30 July 2018 17: 43
                And there is no root? This is a revolution in grammar.
                "May the older comrades correct me." (with).
                A smile without a cat is already for Lewis Carroll.
        2. +1
          30 July 2018 16: 24
          Probably because of the version that the doubling began from the time of Peter the Great.

          But this does not mean that someone canceled the modern rules.

          And writing in Church Slavonic would be uncomfortable. And not only because of the keyboard layout.
      2. +2
        30 July 2018 17: 46
        Quote: Bar1
        take German place names, then all of Germany is riddled with Russian names, so do not confuse one with the other, even Yanin did not name the inhabitants of Germany -Europeans.

        I’m not in the sense that I have more sarcasm, in the concept of "European."
        Personally, I am not surprised that at that time some Rurik was invited to reign in Novgorod. That world was different in terms of the distribution of peoples. It was precisely established that the eastern coast of the Baltic was Slavic and it is possible that some of these tribes lived on both its western and northern shores. And they were relatives who understood each other without an interpreter. Worshiped the only gods and led a similar lifestyle.
      3. +2
        31 July 2018 10: 53
        Quote: Bar1
        Is there really something left of the sources from, say, Lusatian Srbs who still live in Saxony?

        At least in toponymy - in any case, the Novgorod-Pskov "clatter" coincides with the Luzitsky and encouraging, and the bow "n", preserved in Polish and lost in Russian: Vyatichi from Arab authors - waнtit, i.e. Wends, Wends. The original forms were precisely with "n", compare: ind. Punch Taj. "panj", pers. "panj", polish. "pendz", Russian "five".
    2. +3
      31 July 2018 08: 25
      Quote: svp67
      It turns out the Novgorodians. descendants of the "Europeans" and what is surprising in the fact that they invited Rurik to riches?

      Yes, Novgorod was essentially a Western European city, not unlike other cities in the Hansa, and in general it was not only densely populated by foreigners from Europe who had their own churches, trading yards, etc., but was almost completely in it orbit (for example, money circulation was up to Western European accession to Moscow twice).

      Therefore, even the clashes of the same Alexander Nevsky with the knightly orders look like such a typical European feudal disassembly, without globality.
  3. +3
    30 July 2018 08: 11
    The most sensible article on this topic on the site from what I saw
    1. +6
      30 July 2018 12: 57
      The author of this "sensible article" is a direct liar. Such liars, science fiction propagandists (not even knowing the sources on whose "basis" they lie) Now they are doing in Ukraine or on grants from Soros, or the State Department. Example:
      Quote: Author: Ryzhov V.A.
      "The Tale of Bygone Years" directly calls the "Varangian tribe Rus." And this only evidence has literally become a curse of Russian history. Our “patriots” –antinormanists do not fully trust the “Tales of Bygone Years,” but they are not resolved to declare it an unreliable source and withdraw from historical circulation.

      In fact, in the "Tale of Bygone Years" it says:From the annals it follows that: the Varangians, the Swedes (Svei), Novevertsy (Urmane) and Russia are different ethnic groups. Those. Russia cannot be Varangians. And, obviously, both of these ethnic groups cannot be Normans (at least Norwegians and Swedes). In my opinion, this is another direct refutation of the "Norman theory." But the Normanists - stubborn workers - continue to pull the owl onto the globe. Do at least something to them in the eye - they will say, God's dew.
      1. VLR
        +4
        30 July 2018 14: 24
        Lord, the words "Vikings" and "Rusa" by the time of writing the chronicles were no longer synonymous. And therefore - participate in the listing. Varyags of that time are mercenaries from Scandinavian countries. Svei and Urman are residents of Sweden and Norway, respectively. A "Rus" - is an international community of people who speak the "northern language" and live, presumably in the Ladoga region - they went there before the Slavs. And on the bank of the Ladoga met with the Slavs. An example of such a community of people in a foreign territory is the Boers of South Africa, who no longer called themselves by nationality.
        1. +6
          30 July 2018 15: 18
          Quote: VlR
          The Varangians of that time are mercenaries from the Scandinavian countries .... And the “Rus” are an international community of people who speak the “northern language” and live, presumably, in the Ladoga region — they came there before the Slavs.

          But this is all pure water of fantasy. To reinforce one unproven theory, you put forward another, sewn with white thread, and so on to infinity.
          And to make fiction look more convincing, you pronounce them confidently.
          Do you consider all sources? Well then there are Mecklenburg genealogies, where the same Rurik is directly called the Prince of Wends and encouraged.
          There are sources where Rurik is called a native of the Vagra tribe and then there is absolutely no need to breed nonsense with the interpretation of the term Varangians.
          But you leave all such documents aside and build castles in the air.
          Where are the traces of this "northern language"? Where is Thor and Odin in treaties with Byzantium? There is nothing but sheer stretches and assumptions.
          1. VLR
            +4
            30 July 2018 16: 14
            Regarding the Mecklenburg genealogies and other things:
            I have long been a finished article about various versions of the origin of Rurik, based on a variety of sources. Collected once. But I will not publish it. Because:
            1. Here you’ll have to step into the swamp of guesses and assumptions.
            2. The first Russian prince who 100 is identified in Scandinavian sources as a percentage is Vladimir Svyatoslavich, so you shouldn’t leave history into historical fantasy.
            3. As I was convinced once again, the Norman problem in Russia is still beyond logic, beyond common sense, and does not have the slightest chance for a normal and calm discussion.
          2. VLR
            +1
            30 July 2018 17: 06
            There are traces of the northern language - I already answered about this. Where are Thor and One in treaties with Byzantium? Did you read the article? It also clearly states:
            “Igor and Svetoslav are completely unknown to the Scandinavians. The first Russian prince, who can be identified with full confidence in the sagas, is Vladimir Svyatoslavich, and for the Scandinavians he was not his own.” And if his name does not have a Scandinavian analogue. direct descendant of the first Norman king, called up to Novgorod, it should be recognized that by this time the Scandinavians in Russia had finally assimilated and slaved. " It is explicitly said - IF IT IS PRESENT (that Vladimir is a descendant of some Norman king). And, in this case, since the Scandinavians themselves do not know anything about their vocation to Russia (it is said in the article!), Some petty king could come, most likely a fugitive, only from Staraya Ladoga — where the Scandinavians came before the Slavs — a proven fact. The old Ladoga of the Scandinavians is about 100 years older than Novgorod.
            And the new Scandinavians, who came to Russia as mercenaries of Vladimir and Yaroslav, were "westerners": they fulfilled the contract and left. They are called in the annals of the Vikings. Trade guests, ambassadors, runaway Scandinavians are not Varangians, they are called by nationality. Varyags are members of mercenary squads. And this is no longer an assumption, but a fact recognized by all. You can argue about who the Rus were, but it's impossible to argue about who the Varangians were.
            1. +1
              30 July 2018 18: 13
              Quote: VlR
              Staraya Ladoga - where the Scandinavians came before the Slavs - a proven fact. The Old Ladoga of the Scandinavians is about 100 years older than the Slovenian Novgorod.

              Please remind the Scandinavian name of Old Ladoga.
              1. +2
                30 July 2018 21: 10
                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                Please remind the Scandinavian name of Old Ladoga.

                The Scandinavian name Ladoga - Aldeygya, Aldeygyuborg (dr. Scand. Aldeigja, Aldeigjuborg), the first written mention [3] of which in the original form dr.-scand. Aldeigjar is found in the poem "Bandadrapa" by Eiolv Dadaskald.
                1. 0
                  30 July 2018 22: 16
                  Quote: Warrior2015
                  The Scandinavian name Ladoga - Aldeygya, Aldeygyuborg (dr. Scand. Aldeigja, Aldeigjuborg), the first written mention [3] of which in the original form dr.-scand. Aldeigjar is found in the poem "Bandadrapa" by Eiolv Dadaskald.

                  Well, you know how to use Google! And now, please, explain its etymology.
                  1. +1
                    31 July 2018 08: 31
                    Quote: Rakti-Kali
                    Well, you know how to use Google! And now, please, explain its etymology.

                    It is sad if you cannot do this. Otherwise, why ask?

                    The name, according to one version, comes from the Finnish "Alode-joki", where "alode", "aloe" - "low terrain" and "jok (k) i" - "river". In general, since Finno-Ugric tribes originally lived on this place, the river is “lower downstream”. The name was borrowed from the Ladoga Finns by the visiting Scnadinavas (according to the latest data, the buildings of approx. 750 HCE have already been found, while the prevailing inventory is Scandinavian).
                    1. -1
                      31 July 2018 10: 00
                      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                      The name, according to one version, comes from the Finnish "Alode-joki", where "alode", "aloe" - "low terrain" and "jok (k) i" - "river". In general, since Finno-Ugric tribes originally lived on this place, the river is “lower downstream”. The name was borrowed from the Ladoga Finns by the visiting Scnadinavas (according to the latest data, the buildings of approx. 750 HCE have already been found, while the prevailing inventory is Scandinavian).

                      Google again ... But this time it’s wrong, because no one calls big lakes the name of a small river. Try again.
                      Okay, I’ll give a hint, the name appeared even before the settlement of this area by Turkic-speaking tribes.
                      1. 0
                        31 July 2018 14: 44
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        Okay, I’ll give a hint, the name appeared even before the settlement of this area by Turkic-speaking tribes.

                        Mdya, so you also confuse the Turkic-speaking tribes with the Finno-Ugric? Well what can I say ...

                        The most likely meaning is from Finnish - “water in the lowland”!
              2. VLR
                0
                30 July 2018 21: 55
                Aldeygyuborg
                1. 0
                  30 July 2018 22: 17
                  Quote: VlR
                  Aldeygyuborg

                  Well, you know how to use Google! And now, please, explain its etymology.
                  1. -1
                    30 July 2018 22: 32
                    Recently I read how the Scandinavian skalds in their sagas called the completely Russian names of the Rurikovich in the fifth or sixth generations - you can die with laughter (such names never existed in either Slavic or Scandinavian languages). In this and in many other cases, the effect of the “damaged telephone” worked: the skalds themselves did not hear Russian speech, but relied only on the sound transmission of witnesses - the Vikings, who did not bother with the genuine phonetics of the Russian language.

                    From here flows the pearl of Eiolv Dadaskald about Aldeiguborg instead of Ladoga.
            2. +1
              30 July 2018 18: 38
              Quote: VlR
              You can argue who the Rus were, but it is impossible to argue who the Varangians were.

              Yes? But uv. Shpakovsky believes that the Rus are Vikings and believes that arguing is useless, as experts have already decided everything.
              Those. the presence of the peoples of the Vagra and Varins does not bother you in any way, and you do not see the consonance in the names with the Varangians?
              Did you read the chronicle that the Novgorodians descended from the Varangian root?
              But the current data:
              In 1995, the anthropologist N.N. Goncharova with a special study proved the genetic connections of Novgorod Slovenes with the Balts and Baltic Slavs ...
              So maybe all the same there is reason to argue - who are the Varangians, or do you also have certain mythical experts who determined everything unambiguously?
              1. +3
                31 July 2018 08: 36
                Quote: Flavius
                But uv. Shpakovsky believes that the Rus are Vikings and believes that arguing is useless, as experts have already decided everything.

                You know, dear Alexander, I also support him, for according to ALL early medieval chronicles, the "Rus" and the "Slavs" are two completely different people.

                "Rus" in the 7-10 centuries. - typical Vikings, NOT TRIBAL, AND A PROFESSIONAL association of natives of Scandinavia (found in burials on the territory of Russia and the Baltic countries and Swedes, and Norwegians, Danes, and even Irish and Scots), living the slave trade, trade and military affairs in the Russian plain.

                "Slavs" are tribal, and not professional-class associations, of a different people, not of the Scandinavians, living in tillage, strongholds, etc.

                Actually, even the armament is different - the "Rus" - heavily armed rook infantry, in armor, with long swords and two-handed axes, very much appreciated as mercenaries in Byzantium; "Slavs" - footless armor with darts and hatchets, not valued as mercenary warriors in Byzantium.
                1. +4
                  31 July 2018 09: 11
                  Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                  for according to ALL early medieval Arabic chronicles, the "Rus" and the "Slavs" are two completely different peoples.

                  And I also support this statement to some extent, imagine smile
                  If you believe that I will not eat if only the Russians were Slavs, then this does not correspond to the truth. I do not like the substitution of concepts when they unprovenly and by default put an equal sign between Vikings, Varangians and Russians. No one has ever proved this identity and is unlikely to prove it.
                  Therefore, the Vikings should be put aside - let women and children admire them, do not drag them into every slot at all.
                  As for the Arab authors, some early medieval Persian authors directly call the Rus Slavs. And that also means something.
                  But this fact is usually silent, giving priority to the Arabs - this is wrong.
  4. +4
    30 July 2018 08: 19
    If this is so, then a reasonable question arises - why is there no borrowing from the Scandinavian languages ​​in Russian? Even in England, conquered around the time described, there are many French borrowings in the language.
    1. VLR
      +2
      30 July 2018 16: 48
      Wait, what about the camp - the "vault"?
      vaktare - watchman, watchman
      hjälm - helmet
      And the tiun? - in Russia in the XI-XVII centuries, `` the manager of the princely or boyar economy, a lower judge
      Gourd? This princely confidant with police or judicial functions
      Skerries
      Chest and Herring.
      Whip
      Even this can be assumed: the name Svein is a boar, in Russian it is a pig.
      This is the first thing that comes to mind.
      1. +2
        30 July 2018 17: 35
        laughing In a recent article about the Spanish Visigoths uv. Mikhail Matyugin confidently stated that a helmet, a sword and a whip are a direct borrowing from the Gothic.
        In the Slavic languages ​​there are a lot of borrowings from the Germanic, but I think that establishing a more accurate binding is extremely difficult. Here you need to analyze the specific "northern" vocabulary. But not a whip and a boar.
        1. +2
          30 July 2018 18: 42
          It is unclear why some authors persistently dig foreign roots in Russian words, the same helmet and sword, for some reason, it must be deduced from the Gothic. In Gothic there is the word sweins - pig. So maybe our ancestors also learned about pigs from the ready? They lived and lived, saw some dirty animals in the neighborhood, but they didn’t know what to call them, the Goths gave a roast pig well for the holiday and at the same time made it a new word. They say that our bread also comes from Gothic hlaifs ...
          1. +2
            30 July 2018 21: 14
            Quote: fuxila
            It is unclear why some authors persistently dig foreign roots in Russian words.

            I think that there were borrowings for at least two reasons:
            1. The Slavs for several decades entered the Ostrogothic state of Germanaric.
            2. The Slavs lagged behind their German neighbors in a number of areas of activity - agriculture, military affairs, etc. Not because the Germans are more capable, but the Slavs are less. Just the first lived closer to the then centers of civilization, i.e. Roman Empire. And they started earlier.
            When in the 6th century the Slavs began their wars against Byzantium, then they only began the process of decomposition of the tribal system. And the Germans at that time already had the first kingdoms.
            Hence the need for borrowing.
            1. +1
              30 July 2018 22: 46
              Which damn Slavs were part of the Ostrogothic “state”?

              At the time of being in the steppes of the Black Sea region, the Ost-Goth did not have any “state”; it was a wild nomadic tribe without any civilization raid. And then the Huns kicked out the Ost-Goths and forcibly included them in their tribal union. The few remnants of independent East Goths entrenched in the Crimean Mountains, where they really organized their state Theodoro, but it contacted exclusively with the local Byzantine colonies and Turkic-speaking peoples until the Turks liquidated them.

              The first contacts of the East Goths (as part of the Huns) with Byzantium and the Romans occurred after, and not before, their stay in the steppes of the Black Sea region.
              1. +2
                31 July 2018 07: 30
                I do not like the term "state", you can use the "proto-state" or "association of tribes", where the Goths played the leading role, and the Slavs were subordinate. This does not change the essence of the issue. This education has existed for more than a decade and undoubtedly left its mark on Slavic life.
                I did not claim that the Ostrogoths first came into contact with the Roman world, I said that the Germanic tribes as a whole did this before the Slavic, which contributed to their progress in a number of areas.
                If you see in the Slavs the navel of the earth that went from the Paleolithic ahead of the rest of the planet, then this is the same snowstorm as Russia from Sweden))
                1. +1
                  31 July 2018 18: 37
                  You spoke specifically about the Ost-Goths, who had direct contact with the Anta Slavs in the Black Sea steppes for several decades.

                  But at that time the Goths were not yet civilized by the Byzantines or, especially, the Romans. This happened in the part of the West-Goths, which went west and in this regard completely lost contact with the Eastern Slavs.
                  1. +1
                    31 July 2018 21: 23
                    The Mongols were also wild nomads who were inferior in civilization to Russia. However, as a result of their domination, a number of terms and concepts entered the Russian language.
                    Goths are no worse.
              2. 0
                31 July 2018 19: 30
                Quote: Operator
                At the time of being in the steppes of the Black Sea region, the Ost-Goth did not have any “state”; it was a wild nomadic tribe without any civilization raid.

                Andrei, read something about the state of Germanaric. There are written and archaeological data about him.

                And the second, about savagery, I’m ready - according to archeology, their ceramics stand out very qualitatively among the ceramics of the tribes in whose environment they moved and which they conquered + of course a very strong extension of metallurgy, including weapons.
                1. 0
                  31 July 2018 19: 39
                  You first decide for yourself what a “state” is (a territory with specific borders for each moment in time, a settled population, cities, a capital center, an office apparatus, tax collection) or a wild horde on wheels led by a tribal leader, ready to click rush all kagal in any direction, where more satisfying laughing
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2018 20: 22
                    Quote: Operator
                    what is a "state" (territory with specific borders at each point in time, settled population, cities, metropolitan center, bureaucracy, tax collection

                    Andrew, by God, is more careful. Everything is simple - in the state of Germanarich there was a capital, and the bureaucracy, and borders, and tax collection (mostly in kind, because it was a little tough with money circulation - well, in the era of Kievan Rus it was pretty much natural).

                    Then they lived in a normal state, not in a "horde on wheels."

                    All this collapsed with the Hunn invasion - and the Goths, unlike the Russians during the Mongol invasion, simply took off and went "under the wing" of Rome. Then only they became a horde on wheels, in fact refugees and internally displaced persons ...
                    1. 0
                      3 August 2018 20: 58
                      Call the capital ready in the Black Sea.
                      1. +1
                        3 August 2018 22: 47
                        Quote: Operator
                        What is the capital ready in the Black Sea

                        "Shelter on the Dnieper" - Dnaprstadt. Most likely - the first settlement on the site of ancient Kiev. This is a bit of a “forbidden topic” and therefore is largely hushed up in the era of the USSR, because, you know, the Goths are German, anyway, and it turns out that Kiev was not founded by the Slavs in general ...

                        Well, that’s why the partygenoss from the Third Reich claimed not only the Crimea, but also Ukraine as a whole.

                        Although of course the exact localization of this city is unknown, different archaeologists and historians defend different locations, more or less as a whole - this is the middle Dnieper region.

                        Well, as I already said, the number of Slavic names among the Gothic is very large, which means a long interethnic (and at the same time quite loyal to each other) contact (otherwise the conquerors do not take the names of the defeated or the conquered names of the invaders - there are a lot of examples).
        2. +2
          31 July 2018 08: 39
          Quote: Flavius
          In a recent article about the Spanish Visigoths uv. Mikhail Matyugin confidently stated that a helmet, a sword and a whip are a direct borrowing from the Gothic.

          Nothing strange, actually the Goths just come from Scandinavia, and their language is extremely similar to the language of the early medieval Normans, and they have been separated for only several centuries.
          1. +2
            31 July 2018 09: 19
            Many Germanic peoples come from Scandinavia, but this does not make them Normans, in the sense that they put into this term in the Middle Ages.
            And that does not make them Vikings or Rus.
            Here you need to separate the flies from cutlets and understand the terms:
            1. not all Germans are Normans, but Normans are Germans.
            2. Vikings now most often denote Danes, Swedes or Norwegians who went on Viking campaigns in the corresponding time period.
            3. And here comes Russia and the Varangians. And once again I write that no one really knows - who it is and where it comes from. And it’s thick to knead the third paragraph with the first two, because I really want to - wrong. Because there are a lot of arguments, both in one direction and in the other.
      2. +1
        30 July 2018 17: 51
        Shelom is an Old Slavonic word.
        The watchman is a German loan from the time of Peter I.
        Pig is an Old Slavonic word; Bulgarians, Serbs and other Poles with Slovaks also have it.
        Casket and herring are purely trade loans, originally found in Pomeranian dialects, in particular in the Arkhangelsk dialect means coffin.
        But in general, yes, there are some borrowings, but these are separate words, nevertheless, and not out of the ordinary. Yes, and it is difficult to judge this, since most of the words have Pra-Indo-European roots and are found among all peoples of the Indo-European language group. This whole thing is dark, there are no witnesses left, and the annals were often written based on the political situation. In those ancient times, people were less bothered by nationality and race.
      3. +1
        31 July 2018 11: 03
        the guard and skerries are clearly a loan from the Petrine era. But the helmet, tyun - from there! Add: fair (Jahr Mark), sword (Gothic. Meki), hut, bread (Gothic. Hlaf). It’s just that meki and hlaf are absent in modern German: few know that “lord” (ex. “Hlafort”) = keeper of bread ”, and“ lady ”(ex.“ Hlafdige ”) -“ kneading bread ”
  5. +5
    30 July 2018 08: 33
    So, most likely, there were no “vocations” of the Vikings from Scandinavia, but there are no doubts about the presence of people of Scandinavian origin on the territory of Ancient Russia, and even there are “Rus” somewhere there.

    Thanks to the author .... Though common sense finally came to this end.
    Bishop Adalbert calls the famous Princess Olga, who reigned in the land of the fields, the Tsarina not Slavs, but Rus

    He called her regina rugorum - the queen of rugs, not Russians, which seems to be quite different.
    Our “patriots” –antinormanists do not fully trust “Tales of Bygone Years,” but declare it an unreliable source

    Nothing really is written there. Some Russes, some Varangians. Who it is is absolutely not clear. And then modern insinuations begin with the interpretation of these terms.
    So, some people of Scandinavian origin, constantly lived next door to the Slavic tribes.

    Why exactly Scandinavian, and not wider - German, for example, or Celtic?
    1. +1
      31 July 2018 08: 40
      Quote: Flavius
      He called her regina Rugorum - the queen of rugs, not Rus, which seems to be quite different.

      This term was introduced solely because the bishop did not know where to stick the name of the new people, the poet and connected it with the ancient Germanic tribe from Northern Germany.
      1. +2
        31 July 2018 09: 31
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        that the bishop did not know where to stick the name of the new people, a poet and connected it with the ancient Germanic tribe from Northern Germany.

        This is just your local opinion, not confirmed by anything.
        Similarly, Yaroslav the Wise in the West European chronicle of the XI century was called rex Rugorum.
        Prince Edward writes about Yaroslav the Wise that he is "the king of the land of rugov, whom we call Russia."
        In the Tournament Charter of Henry I Ptitselov, Vinslaus princeps Rugiae is mentioned.
        Why are those sources that spoil the general line, declared to be the stupidity of the writer or are simply hushed up?
        1. +1
          31 July 2018 14: 46
          Quote: Flavius
          rex rugorum.

          In my opinion, just a combination of ethnonyms that are similar in sound. Well, there is no evidence that the "Rus" 8-10 centuries. - these are late antique "rugs" ... But in Scandinavia there are terms that coincide with this ...
          1. +3
            31 July 2018 15: 37
            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            Well, there is no evidence that the "Rus" 8-10 centuries. - these are late antique "rugs"

            There are no more than evidence that the Russians are from Scandinavia.
            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            But in Scandinavia there are terms that coincide with this ..

            They are all over Europe, but for some reason you clung to Scandinavia, but not to Ireland or the island of Rügen.
  6. +1
    30 July 2018 08: 43
    Viking in translation from ancient Swedish means a villain. “Our land is large and abundant, but there is no outfit in it” - from a tale of bygone years. Novgorodians could not defend themselves and had a hired squad. An outfit is an armed army capable of defending. The outfit was later called the first guns. Hence the word Shell.
    1. VLR
      +3
      30 July 2018 14: 30
      No, the Viking - either from the word vic - “the gulf” (favorite tactic is to hide in the skerries with a sudden attack on the enemy’s open sea), or from vig - “war”. How this root can be associated with the word "scoundrel" is absolutely incomprehensible. Another thing is that with the loss of drive, especially after the baptism of the Scandinavian countries, the attitude towards the Vikings began to change - and, indeed, the word "Viking" often began to be used in the sense of "robber."
  7. +2
    30 July 2018 08: 51
    I liked the version about the similarity between "Varangian" and "Guard". I did not think about it before.

    All in all, interesting.
  8. +3
    30 July 2018 09: 58
    Good article. The author has an excellent syllable, good knowledge of the material, and most importantly - the desire to write precisely within the framework of history, as a science, and not generate a variety of delirium, which has been filling the section lately.
    I propose that the author include in the creative plsna cycle about the Slavophiles and Westerners. The discussions of Chaadayev with Khomyakov and Kireevsky in the exposition of the author should be interesting.
    1. +4
      30 July 2018 14: 02
      Quote: Curious
      as part of history as a science


      already funny ...
      history has never been a science ...
      she cannot be her by definition ...
      even the events of Ukromaydan are interpreted as God will put the soul on the wall ...
      what kind of science can we talk about ... :)
  9. +4
    30 July 2018 11: 23
    The article is a blatant lie:
    - to date, in Russia, including Ladoga, not a single Scandinavian burial has been found from the beginning of our era until the 12 century inclusive, only 1 (one) burial of a woman of that period was found, the ratio of strontium isotopes in the bones of which corresponds to one of the regions of Scandinavia;
    - in the composition of the population of our country, the word does not contain at least some contribution of the Scandinavians, carriers of the Scandinavian subclades of the haplogroups R1a and I1 are absent as a class;
    - all the material carriers of culture of Western European and Scandinavian origin, found during excavations in our territory, could well have been acquired as a result of a trade exchange or military capture.

    It turns out a paradoxical thing - the East European trade routes, according to Russophobic authors, were teeming with Scandinavians, but they were absolutely immortal and deprived of at least some sec. Rationality in relation to the local population laughing

    In addition, the author for some reason cites only part of the written sources about the geography of sea raids of the Rus before the arrival of Rurik in Novgorod. For example, as many as three Arab authors of the 9th – 10th centuries - al-Ya'kub, Ibn Ha-ukal and al-Mas'udi, provide data on the raids of pagan Rus (al-majus ar-rus) on the Iberian Peninsula. In the 844 of the year, the Russians plundered the Moorish city of Seville under the leadership of As-kold al-Dira (as in the text), before which it unsuccessfully attacked the Frankish city of Lisbon. Alicante, Sidonia and Gadis were also attacked.

    In general, the name of the Rus tribe is found in written sources of that time from the 6 century A.D. when the Russ attacks on merchant ships in the North Sea were first noted. After that, Russ regularly appeared in German chronicles, Byzantine and Arabic records as sea robbers and destroyers of coastal settlements. For example, only Crimea (Byzantine colonies) alone robbed Rus many times, starting from the 8 century.

    On the other hand, the Scandinavian sagas (with the exception of one) are generally silent about the existence of such a tribe as Russia, not to mention the belonging of Russia to the Scandinavians, all the tribes of which are listed in detail in the sagas from the beginning of our era. The genre of sagas is purposefully focused on the biography of prominent Scandinavians (who ordered these works), in the text all their deeds are described to the smallest detail, including unsuccessful ones - for teaching offspring, so to speak. Moreover, if any saga was subsequently lost, links to the actions of her character can always be found in numerous surviving sagas, where the Scandinavians were necessarily compared among themselves to build a personal rating.

    But the trouble is - not a single Scandinavian saga even mentions a Scandinavian Rurik there with the brothers Sineus and Truvor, who established themselves in Novgorod, and their descendants created the largest state in Europe within one hundred years. And this despite the fact that the Rurikovich’s court at that time was literally infiltrated by Scandinavian mercenaries who were well aware of all the details of such an outstanding “Scandinavian” act.

    The Scandinavian skalds would literally write in boiling water, non-stop writing a saga after a saga in honor of wealthy compatriots who seized upon the bins of our homeland.

    Now, with regard to the numerous mentions of the Rus in the written documents of the second half of the first millennium AD.

    Russophobia historians, pulling an owl on the globe in an attempt to classify the Rus as Scandinavians, completely refuse the Western Slavs living at that time on the southern Baltic coast to participate in sea raids on the Atlantic, Mediterranean, Baltic and Black Sea coasts of Europe. This is from a hangover, sorry my French?

    Muzzle, Western Slavs, or something did not come out? That, then they did not have written language and, accordingly, sagas and annals, does not prove anything. But the presence in Novgorod Slovenia of numerous carriers of the West Slavic subclades R1a and I1 objectively indicates the inclusion of representatives of the Western Slavs in the north-eastern.

    The Russian tribe is part of the Western Slavs who lived on the territory of today's Kaliningrad region, which at that time was called Porus, that is, the area along the Rusa River, today's Neman. From the west, the territory of Russia bordered on the Baltic-Prussians, from the east - on the Baltic-future Lithuanians. Especially for Russophobes: the Balts, all of a sudden, are mestizos, half descendants of the Slavs and half Finno-Ugrians, and even speaking Sanskrit dialects (Prussians, Lithuanians and Latvians), and not what you thought (Golem Finno-Ugrians).

    Judging by the written sources, the Russians, due to the limited territory of their residence, differed from other Western Slavs in their militancy and focus on the predominantly raiding, so to speak, nature of farming (coinciding in this with the Scandinavians). In the raids, the Russians merely led the detachments of other Western Slavs, and were the organizational core of the invasion units. Therefore, the West Slavic units received the title "Rus", despite the presence in their ranks of the Slavs of a different tribal affiliation, including the eastern Slavs and Scandinavians who joined along the road.

    A similar transfer of the name of the nucleus of a tribal union to the entire union is known among the Huns (the Huns were no more than one hundredth of the Huns), the Khazars (Hazara Jews as part of Central Asian pagans), Eastern Slavs (Rus as part of the population of the Russian Land) and Mongols (hulk as part Tatar-Mongol).

    PS The only mention of Russ in the Scandinavian sagas is contained in the description of the Scandinavian raid on Polotsk in the middle of the 9 century (before the resettlement of the Rus in Ladoga) regarding the passage of Viking ships across the Neman past the territory of the Rus tribe
    1. VLR
      +4
      30 July 2018 12: 24
      The operator, perhaps you are a great specialist in some narrow field, I don’t know in which, Perhaps, related to genetic studies, the information about which you give out, most often, out of business and out of place, and even in large quantities but few people (forgive me for being frank) are interested in prehistoric times. In any case, your peremptory judgments on all other issues are somewhat surprising. In general, I am always amazed at the categorical judgments of some people. They really want to be right always and everywhere, but it does not work and it cannot turn out. Because there can be no monopoly on ultimate truth.
      To date, archaeologists have discovered five major “centers” of Scandinavian presence in Russia: Staraya Ladoga, Gorodishche (near Novgorod), Gnezdovo (near Smolensk), Timerev (Yaroslavl region) and Shestovitsky burial ground (near Chernihiv). In Gnezdovo there are Scandinavian burials, practically indistinguishable from the burials in Sweden of the same time. Cemeteries with single or group burials of Scandinavians are found in the South-Eastern Ladoga area, at the headwaters of the Volga, south of Lake Ilmen, near Yaroslavl, in the upper Volga, and not far from the Bulgar shopping center. Similar burial grounds were found near Chernigov near the Desna Dnieper tributary and in Kiev. In 2017, a Viking burial in a boat about 8 meters long was found in Karelia.
      At the Novgorod Settlement, which in the 19th century was called “Rurik,” found around 80 ornamented metal objects and 30 amulets, similar to the Scandinavian of that time. In Novgorod found 7 Scandinavian jewelry. Swords of the Scandinavian type with handles, ornamented in the "Scandinavian" tradition in the territory of the former USSR found 87.
      Scandinavian oval brooches found 187 - more than throughout Western Europe
      12 Arabic coins with runes carved on them and at least five other runic inscriptions were found on the territory of Russia and Ukraine. The one found in Staraya Ladoga is a poem, the other is carved on a rune stone on the small island of Berezan in the Black Sea near the mouth of the Dnieper.
      The article says that a genetic study was conducted in 2002, which established that Vladimir Monomakh has a Scandinavian genetic marker N.
      German chronicler Titmar, who, using the stories of Poles who visited 1177 in Russia, writes about Kiev: "In the big city, which was the capital of this state, there were more 400 churches, 8 of commercial areas and an extraordinary crowd of people, who, AS AND ALL THIS AREA consists of runaway slaves who have flown here from everywhere, and very nimble DANOV "(these are people who speak the" northern language "- in Western Europe, the words" given "and" Normans "were often used as synonyms). And this is only one evidence of the presence of Scandinavians in the territory of Ancient Russia. One of many.
      As for the people ar-rus, about which the Arabic sources speak - I did not write about this episode, because it is not related to the topic. This is the campaign of the Normans of Türgeis who settled in Ireland. And yes, this evidence speaks in favor of the version of the origin of the word Russ from Scandinavian rodsmen, so it is extremely unprofitable for you to give this example.
      You have your own point of view - fine: "Let all the flowers bloom." But why do you arrogate yourself the right to consider yourself the only oracle of truth? This position does not cause respect.
      1. +5
        30 July 2018 13: 03
        How much can you transfer from empty to empty:
        - you always, I emphasize, always cite subjective records of foreign authors and ignore records of domestic type PVL;
        - you always refer to the Scandinavian jewelry and weapons found in Russia (including Little Russia and Belarus) as the fact of the presence of the Scandinavians, ignoring the possibility of receiving them by trade exchange or as military trophies;
        - you always give outdated information about the alleged location of the graves of the Scandinavians on the territory of Russia, ignoring the fact that at present they are all without exception recognized as the graves of the Slavs.

        A statement about the dominance of the Scandinavians in the lands of the Eastern Slavs on the basis of finds of Scandinavian products is tantamount to a statement about the dominance of the Khazars in Scandinavia in the 10 century based on the finds of a large number of Khazar coins on the peninsula (received by local residents - mercenaries from Russian princes and Khazars in payment for military services).

        It has already been explained to you that, according to the results of a genetic examination of thousands of modern inhabitants of Russia, as well as bone remains of 5-9 centuries, not a single carrier of Scandinavian subclades R1a and I1 has yet been found, which directly indicates that he ordered the path to the lands of the Eastern Slavs , there was no participation of Scandinavians on the way from the Varangians to the Greeks until the 10 century, exclusively local Slavs and Balts, as well as Western Slavs involved in trade and raids on Byzantium, traveled along the rivers on this path.

        All relations of the Scandinavians with Byzantium at that time passed through the lands of the Germans and the Western Slavs - respect to the Russians from Porus, who established their foreign trade monopoly on a more eastern trade route. This is directly indicated by the numerous carriers of the West Slavic subclades R1a and I1 and still concentrating in the Ladoga area.

        So do not try to refute the objective data of genetics with subjective philological research.

        PS Among the modern descendants of the Rurikovich there are indeed both carriers of the Slavic (non-Scandinavian) subclade R1a and carriers of the Baltic (non-Finno-Finnish) subclade N1c1. But this (the presence in one genus of carriers of two haplogroups) only proves that some of the wives of the Rurikovich went to the left.
        For example, Ingergerda of Sweden, who was forcibly married to Yaroslav the Wise, who, on the advice of his wife, temporarily sheltered Ingirgerda Olaf of Norway's ex-fiancé, shortly after his departure Ingigerda gave birth to a son. All that is required is to conduct a standard test of kinship between the descendants of the Rurikovich - the carriers of N1c1, and the genetic material (nerve tissue of the teeth) taken from Olaf’s grave.
        1. VLR
          +1
          30 July 2018 13: 27
          I do not ignore PVL and other sources, but compare them with foreign ones.
          In the previous article - constantly. And in the next article, for example, the last campaign against Tsargrad of the Russian-Varangian squad will be considered using the chronicles (PVL and Sofia First), Scandinavian sources and Mikhail Psella’s Chronography. Information about the biography of the Norwegian kings who looked at Russia - also from several sources. At the same time, I do not make any categorical conclusions and do not hide that I am not presenting the Truth (with a capital letter), but one of the versions of events.
          As for the fact that ALL the graves of the Scandinavians in Russia are recognized as the graves of the Slavs - by whom ?! Who borrowed a time machine from us and now with 200% can say all this with confidence? Let it then provide the drawings of this machine and provide video materials, perhaps. With us every historian drives everything to suit his and his own views, and to trust every oracle with a scientific degree - not to respect yourself. Especially now, when almost every old grave found in Jerusalem is immediately declared the burial of the family of Christ, and several "Noah's arks" are already "found".
          As for the adultery princes - who held the candle? Perhaps Ingigerd went to the left (there is such a point of view), and the other princesses did too. And maybe - there was no continuous dynasty of Rurikovich, and information about family ties does not correspond to reality. And, maybe, in different cities ruled by different dynasties of princes?
          No one can say anything with 100% confidence.
      2. +3
        30 July 2018 15: 11
        "On the Novgorod Settlement, which was called" Rurikov "in the 80th century, about 30 ornamented metal objects and XNUMX amulets were found, similar to the Scandinavian ones of that time"
        There, on the Rurik Hillfort, the teeth of the monkey were also discovered, but something did not occur to anyone to connect our statehood with the Moorish monkeys.
        1. VLR
          +1
          30 July 2018 16: 51
          Yes, I have not heard such an argument ... I was surprised, honestly.
      3. +3
        30 July 2018 15: 43
        Write, Valery, write more. I am always happy to read your articles that do not claim to be the ultimate truth, unlike some not quite adequate comments. Their authors would like to remind that insult is an argument of the wrong
      4. +1
        4 August 2018 13: 12
        The article says that a genetic study was conducted in 2002, which established that Vladimir Monomakh has a Scandinavian genetic marker N.
        I apologize, could you give a link to the article, it is interesting to read this masterpiece. Although Klyosov proved that Rurik and therefore Rurikovich (And Vladimir Monomakh is Rurikovich) are genetically Slavs
        Rurikovich are either carriers of the haplogroup R1a, Slavs, or carriers of the south Baltic, Slavic branch of the haplogroup N1c1.
        .
    2. +6
      30 July 2018 12: 26
      Quote: Operator
      The article is a blatant lie:

      What is there to add? Gold words...
    3. +2
      30 July 2018 16: 36
      "- in the composition of the population of our country, the word doesn’t have at least some Scandinavian contribution, carriers of Scandinavian subclades of haplogroups R1a and I1[/ i] are absent as a class; "
      " And here availability as a part of Novgorod Slovens of numerous carriers of West Slavic subclades R1a and I1[I]
      objectively indicates the entry of representatives of the Western Slavs into the north-eastern. "
      Confused in the testimony! belay
      1. 0
        30 July 2018 21: 00
        Can you distinguish the adjective "Scandinavian" from the adjective "Western Slavic"? laughing
  10. 0
    30 July 2018 14: 03
    another argument about nothing
  11. +3
    30 July 2018 17: 08
    I wonder why you have anti-Normanists are patriots in quotation marks? It turns out that the real patriots, without quotes, are those who profess the dogma of Normanism, and they are the people who correctly understand the politics of the party and government. If at the very beginning of the article there is a labeling, then what does this have to do with science and in general an attempt to objectively illuminate the essence of the problem?
    As for DNA genealogy, there is research by a leading specialist in this field, Professor Klyosov, so he claims that the Rurikovichs are either carriers of the haplogroup R1a, Slavs, or carriers of the southern Baltic, Slavic branch of haplogroup N1c1.
    1. VLR
      +1
      30 July 2018 17: 18
      Alexey, because, from my point of view, patriots cannot be inadequate and frantic. Although Normanists, even anti-Normanists, without a difference. By the way, I said in the article a lot of things that should just infuriate the Normanists - read more carefully, they are visible to the naked eye. And the Normanists can hardly like the general conclusion. It seemed to me that I was as correct and as unprecedented as possible, record-breakingly objective. And he received a brilliant confirmation of his thesis that "the Norman problem has long gone beyond rationality and is a problem not so much historical as psychopathological." And he received it from anti-Normanists, who simply cannot and do not know how to lead a normal discussion.
      1. +2
        30 July 2018 17: 47
        And are people necessarily divided into "Normanists" and "anti-Normanists"?

        Can there still be "Belonging to the Emperor" and "those that remind flies from afar" (c)?
        1. +1
          30 July 2018 18: 24
          Yes, there are all sorts of people, even supporters of the theory of flat land. But the part of people who are interested in the history of the emergence of Russia, for some reason, is inevitably divided into those and others.
          1. +1
            30 July 2018 19: 05
            No.

            That’s even what the Equal-to-the-Apostles Princess Olga is reflected in as a legendary person.

            And by division:

            "Slavophiles and nihilists.
            Both those and others have unclean nails "(c).

            People do not clearly divide into two caskets.

            And where it is not shaky soil, but the foundation, it is unknown.
            Although there are people who want to dispel the darkness.
        2. VLR
          +3
          30 July 2018 18: 27
          Normal people (authors, researchers, historians, readers) should not be divided into normanists-anti-normanists, nor anything else. Normanists-Antinormanists - this is not at all important, a special case of a general trend. You can try to take into account all points of view and draw conclusions based on all the data. And you can hear "our beat" and, rolling up their sleeves, go wave their fists. At least for the Normanists, at least for the anti-Normanists, at least for Stalin, at least for Navalny, at least for Sobchak with the whole House-2 into the bargain.
  12. Ren
    +3
    30 July 2018 19: 16
    the author is burning! I did not hear and did not read a more drawn-out crib in the style of Potroshenko! wassat
    In the first part, Polyana = Rus = Kiev are opposed by Slovens = Novgorod = Normans, tribes antagonists! belay
    And in the end, all the scruff of the eversion !!! You have already decided on the party line! fellow
    1. +1
      31 July 2018 08: 44
      Quote: Ren
      In the first part, Polyana = Rus = Kiev are opposed by Slovens = Novgorod = Normans, tribes antagonists!

      I will answer for the author - he is almost right in everything! even the Arab chroniclers note the presence of at least three state-forming centers in the territory of the then-formed Ancient Russia. And yes, Novgorod has been an antagonist of Kiev from the very first times. And, by the way, it was he who conquered the southern center, having established his dynasty there.
  13. +3
    30 July 2018 20: 30
    Here you can argue until a scream! The fact remains - Radzivilovskaya fake annals! Inserted sheets, redraws and double page numbering ... I have not seen more than one worthy argument to the contrary! All this simply prefer not to notice! We need to understand one thing: Russia is indeed an absolutely self-sufficient civilization, and above all, culturally! Russia, Russia, Ros, Gardarika, Tartaria ... this is not Europe and not Asia from the word at all! And this is precisely the case when peering into the depths of centuries must be based on just that! From the present! From understanding the exclusivity of our civilization! Scandinavians would create Scandinavia! Scandinavian Scandinavian-Russian Russian! Russia was created by our great ancestors! We must relate to the legends of antiquity deep Russian in Russian! After all, if you look closely even the Etruscan, which the Europeans do not read at all, we even read ...))) So who were the teachers of the teachers ?!)
    1. -1
      31 July 2018 08: 52
      Quote: Oper
      Scandinavian Scandinavian-Russian Russian! Russia was created by our great ancestors!

      Which could well be both Vikings and Polovtsy or Tatars ... (with Slavic and Finno-Ugric genetics prevailing among Russians).

      Quote: Oper
      After all, if you look closely even the Etruscan, which the Europeans can not read at all, we even read ...)))

      Yes, it is partially readable, yes, the self-name of the Etruscans was "rasa" or "raseni", but again, nothing surprising, because This ancient nation, before coming to the west of Asia Minor and long before its sea migration to Italy, came not from somewhere, but from the territory of modern Moldova and Ukraine.

      In my opinion, this could be a passionary fragment of some proto-Russian association, which joined the achievements of the Mediterranean civilization, and then moved to Italy, giving, together with the Hellenes, its culture to Ancient Rome.

      But ... anthropologically Etruscans DO NOT have any resemblance to the Slavic-Russians in our modern sense.
    2. -1
      31 July 2018 09: 19
      Do not touch Tartaria only ..... The Russians were not there from the word AT ALL. The Caucasians were in the Middle Ages, but where and by whom did they say that they were Russians ..? ANYWHERE
  14. 0
    30 July 2018 20: 58
    Quote: VlR
    As for the fact that ALL the graves of the Scandinavians in Russia are recognized as the graves of the Slavs - by whom?

    The dead themselves (joke) - everything, i.e. Totally, all the bone remains from the graves of the "Scandinavians" that have undergone genetic testing belong to the carriers of the Slavic subclades of the R1a haplogroup.
    1. VLR
      -1
      31 July 2018 06: 59
      As usual - a reference to secret research, about which none of the serious experts, historians and archaeologists, even suspects. Specially checked and even requested.
    2. 0
      31 July 2018 10: 33
      Quote: Operator
      The dead themselves (joke) - everything, i.e. Totally, all the bone remains from the graves of the "Scandinavians" that have undergone genetic testing belong to the carriers of the Slavic subclades of the R1a haplogroup.

      This is not the first time I've heard from you about these studies. I could not find anything about them myself. Tell me where you take the information, if not difficult. hi If Klesov, then in order not to shovel over all his works, please indicate as precisely as possible, for surely he has links there directly to the researchers.
      1. +1
        31 July 2018 18: 59
        The website Pereformat.ru, a column of Klesov's articles, in which a respected biochemist many times cites the thesis about the complete absence in Russia of the finds of bone remains of the carriers of the Scandinavian subclades R1a and I1. Links to sources of information you can request from Klesova.

        But it's not just about genetic research in the last decade. Since the end of the 20 century, almost all of Europe (including Scandinavia) has been mapped for the presence of various strontium isotopes in the rocks, the ratio of which is unique for each area with the outcrop of rocks to the North Caucasus, Carpathians, Balkans, Alps, Pyrenees, Karelia and golimy Scandinavia.

        Strontium isotopes are deposited in human bones during their growth up to 18-20 years. Therefore, all and sundry, managed to "break through" a lot of bone remains on the subject of origin from a particular region of Europe with rock outcrops. The same thing was done in the USSR, and then in the Russian Federation.

        But domestic "historians" with "archaeologists" (shameful shameful !!!) have so far scolded the results of testing the bones of the first millennium A.D. on the ratio of strontium isotopes regarding the attribution of finds to people born in Scandinavia. The result was invariably negative, but who told us about this?

        Only two years ago, one domestic “historian” raised a squeal and howl, (drenched with zeal with snot and urine) at the Liberty radio station that a woman’s skeleton was found for the first time in our country, the ratio of strontium isotopes in which falls within the interval corresponding to Scandinavia. And this despite the fact that the found bone remains of that period on the territory of Russia are hundreds, and the isotope mapping of Europe is not yet complete - in particular, the Sudeten Mountains in the Czech Republic have yet to be explored.

        In any case, the unambiguous identification of bone remains can be achieved only by genetic testing methods with determination of haplotypes, subclades and DNA haplotypes, which is now being done.
        1. 0
          31 July 2018 20: 46
          Quote: Operator
          The website Pereformat.ru, a column of Klesov's articles, in which a respected biochemist many times cites the thesis about the complete absence in Russia of the finds of bone remains of the carriers of the Scandinavian subclades R1a and I1. Links to sources of information you can request from Klesova.

          Where I am where Klesov.
          "Dear biochemist," but in general, a respected and self-respecting scientist, citing a thesis should leave references to sources without reminders. The main scientific criteria lies in the fact that every (!) Researcher should be able to verify and double-check what he said and, in theory, should get the same result as the author.
          I don’t have the time to study a complete set of DNA genealogy literature, but it would be interesting to get acquainted with the results of genetic studies of burials. Who conducted them, when, what results, statistical calculations, etc. If this is not, I mean the links, then the thesis itself can be thrown into the garbage.
          I read the article "The last nail in the coffin of the Norman theory" from the site you recommended. In my opinion, this is profanation. If I copy the same article and change some numbers and words in it, the conclusions will be diametrically opposite, but how will you check who is right - Klesov or me?
          And in general, Klesov’s interpretation of the available data seems to me to be very shaky, and in some cases contrived. Roughly speaking, if the same haplotype is found in Russia and somewhere else, then it got there from Russia, and not vice versa because it is so, but it cannot be otherwise.
          And his "scientific patriotism" is generally a song ... The truth, the achievement of which is the goal of any science, is objective, patriotism is subjective in its nature. “Scientific patriotism” is the same oxymoron as “fried ice”, and a person positioning himself as a scientist should understand that by introducing such a term he tries to subjectivize truth, that is, he admits that there can be one truth for one subject, and the other is different. If Klesov is satisfied with such a truth, it means that what he does is not a science, which, by the way, I have always argued.
  15. +3
    30 July 2018 22: 03
    It is noteworthy that the Scandinavians themselves did not know any Rus and no "people of the Ros": they called themselves the Sveons, Danes, Normans

    Dear, Author! Thanks for the article, it reads easily and pleasantly, but ... not as a historical essay, but as a fantasy genre.
    Why is that? I don’t know if you are aware, but relatively recently information has surfaced that it appears that at the end of the XNUMXth century the Russian language was in the Swedish Empire! The Swedish language was not invented then, as it turns out! So in the light of this amazing fact, all the disputes between the "Normanists" and the "anti-Normanists" disappear by themselves, agree? All these sveons, Danes, Normans and others, are in fact just the later names of the Russian inhabitants of Scandinavia.
    1. +1
      31 July 2018 08: 50
      Quote: Terror
      I don’t know if you are aware, but relatively recently information has surfaced that it appears that at the end of the 17th century the Russian language was in the Swedish Empire! The Swedish language was not invented then, as it turns out!

      That's just anti-scientific nonsense, then we are missing. Elementary ignorance and the desire to pull everything by the ears is the cause of all evil.

      First: Russian was one of the languages ​​of the Swedish kingdom precisely in the 17th century. It's simple - as a result of the Time of Troubles, Sweden included significant territories with a Russian-speaking population (Ingermanland, part of Southern Finland, even a part of the Baltic), where, by the way, the Russian population lived better than in Moscow Russia (there was no serfdom, there were citizenship rights, etc. .P.). Few people know about this, but it is a fact.

      During the conquest of these lands by Peter I, the population was annexed in the Assyrian-Babylonian style, when many were captured by the government army and irregular (Cossacks. Bashkirs, Kalmyks, etc.) captured and sold to Central Asia and the Caucasus and Turkey, and the remaining were evicted to the north-eastern provinces of Central Russia.

      Second: Swedish is recorded at least from the Early Middle Ages only according to written sources. And yes, the Old Russian language had very large borrowings from the early Shevd language. There is nothing surprising in this - all the same, the neighbors are active trade relations and migration.
      1. +2
        31 July 2018 20: 59
        That's just anti-scientific nonsense, then we are missing. Elementary ignorance and the desire to pull everything by the ears is the cause of all evil.

        Dear, why is it so categorical !? The deplorable speech on the occasion of the death of King Charles XI in Russian is an authentic document of 1697. by which it is recognized by official modern historians and its authenticity is not disputed by anyone. For the first time this document was, most likely by accident and due to oversight, shown to the general public during the exhibition “Eagle and Leo. Russia and Sweden in the 2001th century ”, held in Moscow in XNUMX. This deplorable speech is constantly kept in the Uppsala University Library in Sweden.
        First: Russian was one of the languages ​​of the Swedish kingdom precisely in the XNUMXth century.

        If Russian were only one of the languages ​​of the Swedish kingdom in XVII, then the official memorial speech on the death of the king would then be made in other official languages, too, but this is not observed. At an official state event at the highest level, so to speak, only Russian is used. From this fact, we can only make an unambiguous conclusion that the Russian language was the only state language at that time, and Swedish was not yet invented in that era.
        And, interestingly, today we read this deplorable speech without difficulty. Estimate the connection of the times! We understand the “Swedes” from the XNUMXth century, but modern Swedes are no longer there! Their ancestors are closer to us, and not to their modern Swedish descendants!
    2. The comment was deleted.
  16. +3
    31 July 2018 09: 14
    I observe from the outside for all this .... It is clear that my ancestors - the Mongols, it seems, were left alone. But again they took up the Russians .. The meaning of this article, as I understand it in the following, Russ is one thing, Slavs is another. Moreover, those first Russes are some kind of rabble, an international shobla without clan and tribe, who settled somewhere in the vicinity of Novgorod ..... Therefore, modern Russians are a cross between the Slavs and this rabble .... But since everyone is so Russian, then, to a greater extent, the descendants of THIS rabble ... Kindless horseradish understand who .... Conclusion: there are modern Russians, descendants of the rabble, who have no right to anything here. And there are Slavs, right, root. Glade there, Drevlyans, Krivichi, Radimichi, Vyatichi. They urgently need to separate themselves from these Russians ... So what ...? The task is still the same - to oust everyone in Russia, but rather let them fight over .... And to death ...
    1. VLR
      +1
      31 July 2018 10: 10
      Strange you have a conclusion. And quite offensive. Because of the large "historical" nations, only the Japanese are, perhaps, genetically pure. All the others experienced the influence of numerous waves of the crossover. It turns out that you call all the peoples of the earth "rabble."
      1. +1
        31 July 2018 11: 20
        Quote: VlR
        Because of the large "historical" nations, only the Japanese are, perhaps, genetically pure.

        If ... about 50% are haplogroup O (South Chinese), about 35% are D (Tibetan!) And about 12% are C (Mongolian). The rest - on the little things. Malays are much cleaner on blood (75-80% - haplogroup "O"). In Europe - Spaniards, 65-70% R1b
      2. +3
        31 July 2018 14: 44
        "You have a strange conclusion. And quite offensive ........ It turns out that you call all the peoples of the Earth" rabble ""
        If the word rabble is considered as a special term - "collection of labor", then there is nothing offensive in this word, any modern people consists of several generic haplogroups. The question is different. In what other language, besides Russian, can I find an explanation about this? It is immediately clear that the Russians were engaged in genetics even before the Varangians arrived laughing
    2. +2
      31 July 2018 10: 29
      Quote: Dzungar
      Moreover, those first Russes are some kind of rabble, an international shobla without clan and tribe, who settled somewhere in the vicinity of Novgorod ..... Therefore, modern Russians are a cross between the Slavs and this rabble .... But since everyone is so Russian, then to a greater extent the descendants of THIS rabble ... Rodless horseradish understand who ....

      And the greatest civilizations (that of Athens, that of Rome) always created such a rabble - passionaries, s. In Rome, it was originally just 100 people who knew the name of their father - it was they who became patricians (ext. "having fathers"), and plebeians are all without exception bastards! That is why the "abduction of the Sabine women" happened - the Sobes did not want to marry their girls to such a rabble!
      Quote: Dzungar
      Conclusion: there are modern Russians, descendants of the rabble, who have no right to anything here. And there are Slavs, right, root. Glade there, Drevlyans, Krivichi, Radimichi, Vyatichi. They urgently need to separate themselves from these Russian ...

      Conclusion: there are modern Romans, descendants of the rabble, who have no right to anything here. And there are Italics, right, root. Oski there, samnites, sabins, umbrellas, lucans, gross, pizzas. They urgently need to separate themselves from these Romans! laughing
  17. +2
    31 July 2018 10: 26
    Two rapids, Gelandry and Varuforos, who are M.P. Pogodin in the XIX century called "two pillars that will always support Normanism and withstand any ax" (...) Gelandri (giallandi) - "The noise of the threshold"; Varuforos - baruforos ("Strong Wave") or varuforos ("High Rock"). Another threshold (Eifor - eifors - “Eternally furious”, “Eternally noisy”) is interesting because its name is present in the runic inscription on the Pilgard stone (Gotland) ..
    Only these same names can be interpreted well from ... Ossetian, which works on the version that Rus / Ros = Roxalans (Rohs / Ruhs - common Iran. "Bright"!
    Gelandry ... means "Threshold Noise." This, of course, is the Zvonetsky threshold ... The Scandinavian version suggests Gellandi - “noisy” or Gellandri (“g -” - masculine vocabulary). This is indeed an excellent etymology, exactly matching the semantics attested by Porphyrogenet. However, in the Ossetian qselsei / gaelses- "voice"; qser /; gser- "noise", "scream"; qsergaenag- "noisy"; zael- "sound", "ringing"; zsel-lang ksennyn- "ring"; zselyn- “sound”; etc. With this we have to compare kaelyn / * gaelyn - "pour", which in a certain way connects this nest with the movement of water. The second basis is Osset. dwar - “doors” (cf. balcony. dor- “stone”) - explicitly echoes the concept of “threshold”. Thus, Caucasian etymology is not inferior to Norman.
    The fourth threshold, according to Konstantin Bagryanorodny, is called Aifor in Russian, and, in Slavic, Owl. This is the Nenasets - the most formidable of the Dnieper rapids, which had nine lavas, and the most impassable. (...) Osset. Ajk - an “egg” (which, incidentally, has a common Indo-European character) - quite accurately records the presence of nesting, which is also emphasized by Porphyrogenet. The second basis is Osset. fars (* fors - “side”, “edge”, “threshold”, that is, together: “nesting threshold”).
    The fifth threshold has the “Russian” name Varuforos and the “Slavic” - Vulniprag (“Free threshold”). (...) O6shcheiran. varu means "wide"; Osset. fars * fors - "threshold". The interpretation is impeccable, exactly corresponding to the help of Porphyrogenet.
    (Braychevsky M.Yu. “Russian” names of rapids by Konstantin Bagryanorodny // Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR. Institute of Archeology of the Land of South Russia in the 1985th-XNUMXth Centuries (History and Archeology) Collection of scientific works. Kiev, Naukova Dumka. XNUMX
    1. +2
      31 July 2018 10: 54
      Quote: Weyland
      Only these same names can be interpreted well from ... Ossetian, which works on the version that Rus / Ros = Roxalans (Rohs / Ruhs - common Iran. "Bright"!

      You can even find explanations from Celtic languages. It all depends on the preferences of the researcher and to what extent he is ready to pull the desired into the real. laughing
    2. +1
      31 July 2018 16: 52
      The names of the thresholds of Bagryanorodny are the only confirmation of the existence of a certain Russian language, different from the Slavic.
      While in the PVL: "Russian and Slovenian are one."
      If you believe the author of the article, the Scandinavians quickly assimilated, even forgot their gods, but stubbornly kept the names of the thresholds in speech! And they informed Bagriornorodny about it.
      1. +1
        1 August 2018 13: 15
        Quote: Quintus Sertorius
        If you believe the author of the article, the Scandinavians quickly assimilated, even forgot their gods, but stubbornly kept the names of the thresholds in speech! And they informed Bagriornorodny about it.

        It was assimilated in Russia - and the Bagryanorodny info about the names of the thresholds is almost certainly the Russians that were part of the Varangian guard!
        1. 0
          2 August 2018 01: 39
          There was no Varangian guard in the days of Bagryanorodny!
      2. +1
        3 August 2018 20: 32
        Quote: Quintus Sertorius
        If you believe the author of the article, the Scandinavians quickly assimilated, even forgot their gods, but stubbornly kept the names of the thresholds in speech!

        Yes exactly. You apparently do not know that Orthodox Christianity was originally called, in the pagan period, in Russia - "Varangian faith"? Just because among the Scandinavians who lived on the Russian plain there were many who served as mercenaries in Varangaria (Tagma Varangians), and the basis for joining it was the adoption of Orthodoxy, and therefore, after the resignation, the "Varangians" remaining in the territory of Ancient Rus, remained Christians, "really forgetting their ancient gods."

        By the way, recently there was a celebration of the day of the Holy Martyr Varangian Fedoroa and his son John ...

        Well, the "Varangian Guard" had a place to be from 10 to 15 century ....
        1. 0
          5 August 2018 08: 59
          1. I do not know that Orthodoxy was called the "Varangian faith." Give a source?
          I think that, at least since the time of Oleg’s campaigns, our ancestors knew for sure that Orthodoxy is the faith of the Greeks.
          2. About the mass of VG retirees in Russia - do not think up. Or indicate the source.
          3. The Varangian tagma was formed for the first time from those whom Vladimir sent. 988. As I wrote above, there was no case of Bagryanorodny VG.
  18. 0
    31 July 2018 11: 09
    Article plus, thanks to the author.
    There are no special comments on the content of the article, except that it is possible to argue about the time of the arrival of the Slavs and Scandinavians in the eastern Baltic States - who was earlier. But by and large this is not so important, since it is quite obvious that by the middle of the 9th century. both Finns, Slavs, and Scandinavians coexisted in the vicinity of the Gulf of Finland for a long time and the creation of a state was ripe for them, which is called, “that’s just really.” smile
    For me, the origin of the term "Russia" has been resolved, I believe that this is a Finnish word for Scandinavians, which has become Slavic languages ​​with some distortions. Rurik’s origin, in spite of the fact that I don’t attach any importance to this issue - even if it’s an Armenian or a Jew, for me there’s no difference, I still consider it Scandinavian, simply because most of the indirect data point to this, and for the hundredth I don’t want to repeat the argument “for” and “against” at all. You read Evgeny Pchelov "Rurik" from the series "Life of wonderful people", everything is consistently and scrupulously stated there.
    The most important thing is that whoever built the ancient Russian state, and, as it were, did not call it, but it was the Slavic state that built it, not the Finnish or Scandinavian one. Everything else - the details of a certain interest, but not significant.
    Thanks again to the author.
    1. +1
      31 July 2018 11: 26
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      There are no special comments on the content of the article, except that one can argue about the time of the arrival of the Slavs and Scandinavians in the eastern Baltic states - who used to be

      Yes, not only to the Baltic states, take immediately further - Crimea. Apparently the Russ-Scandinavians-Vikings (they are, no doubt, Vikings) cut through the Black Sea immediately after the death of St. Stephen (787) laughing
      “At the death of the saint, a mine is few years old,” says the old Russian compiler of the Life, who reworked the Greek original, “the great Russian from Novagrad, Prince Bravlin, is strong and strong”

      It is officially believed that the Viking era began with a raid on Lindisfarne in 793. And it turns out that we are again ahead of the rest. There were also no Vikings, but we already had them.
      They went straight down from Novgorod and on the road.
      1. +1
        31 July 2018 12: 27
        Come on you fuss. Before the Viking Age there were also other epochs, Vendelskaya, for example, people lived in this era too, built ships and did many other things. Some scientists, especially Scandinavians, believe that the colonization of the eastern Baltic by the Scandinavians began almost in the 6th century, long before the appearance of the Slavs in these places. Archaeologically confirm this hypothesis has not yet succeeded, but hope remains smile so your sarcasms are not entirely appropriate.
        Other scientists, mostly ours, believe that the Slavs came to the Baltic States earlier, and the appearance of the Scandinavians in these places is associated with the Viking Age. I adhere to the second point of view, in any case, it is somehow confirmed archaeologically.
        And I don’t need to pour in about Bravinov, Prusov and other Luthorov and Blagomir with Beauties and Umilas. We will have our dear dolboslavy to listen to them, they will open their mouths, and then they will impale, fry and eat with great reverence as a holy envoy of Veles, so that the aforementioned Veles with his beloved servant will not be separated for a long time. smile
        1. +1
          31 July 2018 14: 52
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Before the Viking era, there were also other periods, the Wendel era, for example, people lived in this era, built ships and did a lot more.

          Not quite so, the ships of the Scandinavians in the Wendel era were more primitive, simpler, and no campaigns were recorded (people after the Great Migration of Peoples already became much smaller, and the climate was still better).
          1. 0
            31 July 2018 16: 40
            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            hikes not fixed

            There is no talk about trips, in the sense that they have gathered, armed, went, returned, told and recorded to everyone. However, even if they were, there was nobody to fix them. This is a creeping expansion, the colonization of the eastern lands. According to some researchers, the Swedes entered the territory of modern Russia long before the Slavs came there - they were interested in the trade routes "to the Persians" and "to the Greeks." For others, it was later, and precisely in connection with the settlement of these lands by the Slavs, since these lands did not represent any interest, for there were no trade routes as such. Rather, the second version is archaeologically confirmed, since the first finds of Arab dirhams in these places date back to the 8th century, i.e. it was at this time that trade routes along the Volga and the Dnieper began to form, however, Slavic settlements already existed by that time.
            In short, the Slavs came to these lands, plowed fields, built many sites of ancient settlements, and trade followed them, and the Scandinavians who wanted to control this trade followed the trade. There was no one to rob as in Europe - there were few people, they lived poorly. For control over the trade routes, it was necessary to equip fortified points with a constant presence, which, with a negative attitude on the part of the local population, even if it is not numerous, is very difficult to maintain. So we had to establish relations with the local - Slavs and Finno-Finns, and lived side by side - urban planners, farmers, hunters, fishermen and warriors-traders for about 100 years. The time has come - a state was born, in which at first every nation had its own function.
            This is so, simply, everything, of course, is more complicated in reality, but I see the general scheme as follows.
      2. +1
        31 July 2018 14: 54
        Quote: Flavius
        It is officially believed that the Viking era began with a raid on Lindisfarne 793 year. And it turns out that we are again ahead of the rest. There were also no Vikings, but we already had them.

        Nothing strange, just Lidisfarne is the extreme western point of the process, and the Bravlin raid is the extreme eastern point of the same process - early medieval sea migration from Scandinavia (from the chronicles, because there are already found 100 burials of% of Vikings, probably 8 -9 centuries, but ... on the territory of Mordovia and Bashkiria ... but we don’t know anything about campaigns in these lands).
        1. +1
          31 July 2018 15: 33
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
          Nothing strange, just Lidisfarne is the extreme western point of the process, and the Bravlin raid is the extreme eastern point of the same process - early medieval sea migration from Scandinavia

          Do you really believe that they came from Veliky Novgorod, whose founding date is at least 50 years later than the specified date? Crossed Europe and back?
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
          because there are already found burials of 100% of the Vikings, probably 8-9 centuries, but ... in the territory of Mordovia and Bashkiria

          I heard of similar burials in Mordovia dating from the end of 10, the beginning of 11. But whether the Vikings were there - this is again the same song.
          In general, we walk around one pillar - you strongly believe that the Rus are Vikings, take some evidence and ignore the contradictory evidence. Your position is clear, there’s nothing more to talk about.
          1. 0
            31 July 2018 19: 35
            Quote: Flavius
            Do you really believe that they came from Veliky Novgorod, whose founding date is at least 50 years later than the specified date? Crossed Europe and back?

            No, where did you get that? Not at all - just take Scandinavia as a kind of ethnic center - and from which two horns of invasion lead - one to Britain, the second to the Russian Plain.

            Quote: Flavius
            I heard of similar burials in Mordovia dating from the end of 10, the beginning of 11. But whether the Vikings were there - this is again the same song.

            Well, according to the inventory, typical Scandinavians, with Thor's hammers, etc. I do not know anthropologically, but the growth is significant.
      3. +2
        31 July 2018 15: 30
        "Straight from Novgorod went down and the road."
        Not so simple as it seems. It doesn’t matter how you went down to Ilmen, from Novgorod along Volkhov, or on a shorter route from the Gulf of Finland along the Luga River, then along Kiba, Mshaga and Sheloni. You will enter Ilmen, but you won’t be able to exit uncontrollably. Almost all the rivers flowing into Ilmen had defensive structures (towns, hillforts) that did not allow further unhindered movement. Excavations of 2005-2008 near the village of Gorodok on the Mayat River showed that "Gorodok on Mayat" is the oldest defensive structure in the entire North-West, with a perfectly preserved tree-earthen rampart. not peculiar to Primenmen. This was found during excavations of Slavic settlements in Poland and Germany. Dated to the fifth century. So without the Slavs, not a single Varangian or Viking could get to the South.
        1. +2
          31 July 2018 16: 12
          Quote: Yura Yakovlev
          So without the Slavs, not a single Varangian or Viking could get to the South.

          I agree with this and I believe that there was no established way for the Scandinavians to travel from Novgorod to the Black Sea and could not exist.
        2. VLR
          0
          31 July 2018 16: 23
          On the path of the Normans to the south: Correctly, only with the consent of the Slavs as merchants, and only with the Slavs - in the case of a military campaign.
          1. +2
            31 July 2018 21: 20
            Quote: VlR
            That's right, only with the consent of the Slavs as merchants, and only with the Slavs - in the case of a military campaign.

            And slaves, the sale of which in the Byzantine markets was the main source of income for the Rus, the Slavs were also converted with their consent.
            Or were those Slavs who did not give consent?
            1. VLR
              +1
              1 August 2018 05: 54
              Of course, with the consent. Don't you even know that? Drevlyane, Krivichy, Vyatichi and others - with the consent of the field, which people of other tribes and people did not really think, and received a percentage of this trade. Remember in the annals: "we are good, and neighbors - live in an animal way." What not to sell such? In Africa, in general, the negros themselves of other blacks were sold to Europeans - just sail and buy. And the percentage, conveniently set on the way to Tsargrad, was received. And Askold and Dir, who helped streamline the procedure for collecting these interest, were happy to accept. And, you see, prices raised. So Oleg had to eliminate this customs.
              1. +2
                1 August 2018 08: 23
                Quote: VlR
                Don't you even know that?

                How do I know such things if they are not mentioned in any sources?
                If you say - in what documents it is written that the Rus didn’t convert to slavery, but converted others, then I’ll be happy to get acquainted and raise the level.
                And why didn’t they take the glade, and took the others? After all, the glade controlled only part of the path (if it existed at all)?
                1. VLR
                  0
                  1 August 2018 09: 11
                  Slavs with pleasure took into slavery the Slavs belonging to other tribes. And at a later time - the same: the Chernigov prince will run into Polotsk (for example), and be sure to take all the people he takes with him. Whom - will sell, whom - as a servant he will write down, whom - he will plant in a new place. Well, while the glades simply had a very favorable geographical position: by no means could you get to Byzantium along the Dnieper. And Kiev is located just after the tributaries flowing into the Dnieper, along which other tribes lived. This is precisely its significance and significance for ancient Russia. Naturally, the customs business was organized at the highest level, and glades had to be considered and negotiated. All this was so profitable that even the ideological rationale for participation in the slave trade was attended to: Polyana is an enlightened and civilized people, around are savages who practice all sorts of abominations. It is not a shame to trade them and cooperate in the slave trade with the Vikings, but, on the contrary, very well.
                  1. +2
                    1 August 2018 10: 33
                    Well laid out smile
  19. VLR
    0
    31 July 2018 13: 51
    Quote: Rakti-Kali
    In order to give a reasoned answer to all the assumptions of the author would have to write an article the size of "larger" and with the base of "google", which I did not set myself into the task.

    And you put. Because I doubt your ability to write such an article. Prove the opposite. Write and publish here - read and express my thoughts. Do not write - sorry, I think badly.
    1. 0
      31 July 2018 17: 34
      Quote: VlR
      And you put. Because I doubt your ability to write such an article. Prove the converse. Write and publish here - I will read and express my thoughts.

      Well, thank you ... Although ... Transfer 100.000 rubles to the card and I will think about what to write.
      Quote: VlR
      Do not write - excuse me, I’ll think badly.

      Sorry, but your opinion is completely uninteresting to me, tea is not WAC moderation.
      1. VLR
        +2
        31 July 2018 17: 47
        Refuse to respond to the article on the article? I did not doubt it. Couch experts always refuse. In order to respond with a good article, courage is necessary (opponents will consider a discussion article under a microscope and attach to every little thing) and knowledge that is deeper than that of opponents - which will allow you to “fight back.” I personally participated in 2's professional journal discussions - and answered with articles, not comments.
  20. 0
    31 July 2018 17: 24
    Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
    Mdya, so you also confuse the Turkic-speaking tribes with the Finno-Ugric? Well what can I say ...
    The most likely meaning is from Finnish - “water in the lowland”!

    Guilty, the demon beguiled. It is a shame, of course, to confuse the Ural group with the Altai group. I’ll recover, before the arrival of native speakers of the Ural group.
    1. +1
      31 July 2018 19: 37
      It is clear that before the Finns arrived, the name is unknown, and so - "big water in the lowland" - a bad name for the lake? Or do you have your own options?
  21. +2
    31 July 2018 19: 31
    Quote: VlR
    the Japanese are probably genetically pure

    You wanted to say - homogeneous. But this does not apply to the Japanese from the word at all.

    In accordance with the testing of bone remains, the first people who settled in Japan were hunter-gatherers who are carriers of haplogroup D (typical representatives are the Ainu of Hokkaido). In the middle of the 1 millennium BC Chinese carriers, carriers of haplogroup O, began to migrate to the Japanese islands in droves, who brought with them skills in farming, metal processing and horse breeding, and also completely assimilated local hunters living in the Stone Age.

    As a result, modern Japanese are typical mestizos without any dominant haplogroup. Similar mestizos are, for example, the Balts (R1a / N1c1), Armenians (G1 / R1b), Czechs (R1a / R1b), Greeks (E1 / J2 / R1), Jews (J1 / R2 / J1 / R1 / / R2a / R1b).

    Genetically homogeneous peoples (80 and more percent) include, for example, Chinese (O1), Irish, British, French and Basques (R1b), Mongols (C2), Abkhazians (G1), Chechens and Ingush (J2) .

    Peoples with a dominant group at the level of 50 percent include, for example, Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Poles, Slovaks, Kyrgyz, Tajiks and Pashtuns (R1a) and Germans (R1b).
  22. 0
    31 July 2018 22: 10
    Quote: Flavius
    Goths are no worse [Mongol]

    Tochnik laughing
  23. +1
    31 July 2018 22: 12
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    me it seems

    I do not.
    1. 0
      31 July 2018 23: 55
      Quote: Operator
      I do not.

      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Klesov's interpretation of the available data seems to me quite shaky

      Well, let's say otherwise.
      Klesov's interpretation of the available data does not stand up to serious criticism, since it’s one-sided and anti-scientific. That's better?
      1. +1
        1 August 2018 02: 01
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        unscientific

        Are you a biochemist?
        1. -1
          1 August 2018 09: 36
          [
          Quote: Operator
          Are you a biochemist?

          Not only not a biochemist, but not a historian, like you and everyone else, writing in this section.
          And what, biochemists with us are now beyond criticism?
          1. +1
            1 August 2018 19: 50
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            not a biochemist

            Then why give an assessment of what you are not competent in?
            1. -1
              1 August 2018 19: 56
              Quote: Operator
              Then why give an assessment of what you are not competent in?

              And you and Klesov are probably historians, archeologists, genetics ...
              Personally, I find the position of Lev Klein closer and clearer. In any case, he behaves like a scientist in the controversy with Klesov, and not as a journalist. And he is an expert, recognized and respected in his field. Let Klesov is engaged in biochemistry and will not go into history, archeology, etc. and I will not have a reason to criticize him.
              1. +2
                1 August 2018 20: 05
                What is the relationship between the natural science discipline of DNA genealogy and the position of the humanist Klein (who is also a notorious Russophobe, famous for his naked compilations from other people's scientific works on history, a person with a non-traditional orientation, and currently insanity)?
                1. 0
                  1 August 2018 20: 49
                  Here you too, like your guru, immediately become personal. Klein is an authoritative specialist in the field of history and archeology. And in the controversy with Klesov, he behaves much more rationally, although it is hardly reasonable that he got involved in this controversy, I mean in what form it is being conducted now. By the way, I learned about Klein relatively recently, when I read his article on "genefond.ru".
                  And further. You and Klesov can call DNA genealogy as a science as much as you like, but in fact it is not, because it does not have an independent subject of research, and its methods have been repeatedly criticized and recognized by the scientific community as incorrect. And the paradox is that if these techniques are brought into line with the requirements of science, then DNA genealogy will turn into population genetics, or rather, into its cruelly castrated version.
                  So let Fomenko do math, Klesov - biochemistry, it would be better for everyone. Leave history to historians, and genetics to genetics.
                  1. +2
                    1 August 2018 23: 40
                    Is radiocarbon analysis likely to be left to physicists?

                    And then endlessly chew the texts of illiterate Arabs, uninformed Greeks and Romans - the "science" of history, a plaque fly, in all its glory.

                    Perhaps, on the Russophobe-compiler Klein, we will finish our communication.
                  2. +3
                    2 August 2018 01: 56
                    Gumilev believed that discoveries occur just at the intersection of disciplines. Do not put Klyosov on a par with Fomenko. Klyosov is not engaged in fiction. How scientific his theory will show time.
                    At one time, Boris the Terrible was ridiculed for the discovery of the Hittite state, time has passed - now its denial may cost the historian's name.
                    1. +1
                      3 August 2018 20: 45
                      Quote: Quintus Sertorius
                      At one time, Boris the Terrible was ridiculed for the discovery of the Hittite state, time has passed - now its denial may cost the historian's name.

                      Not quite so - at first they began to poison the Czech Bergich-Friedrich the Terrible for deciphering the ancient Hittite inscriptions using Slavic languages ​​(and German scholars could not do this), then he recognized his idea as successful, but attempts to decipher other languages ​​based on Slavic to him failed. However, he did not discover the Hittite civilization.
                      1. +1
                        3 August 2018 21: 00
                        I would use Bergich Sanskrit, I would decipher it more.
  24. The comment was deleted.
  25. VLR
    -1
    1 August 2018 10: 09
    I can not say with complete certainty whether such an opinion is justified, but as we managed to find out, "traditional" historians and archaeologists treat Klesov as a charlatan. And the figure of the level of Fomenko-Nosovsky. I will say it once again: I do not take the liberty to judge - how true and reasonable is such an attitude (since I treat genetics with respect, but not an expert, so that I can figure it out for myself). But, the fact that his works are not recognized by official science is a fact. And you still have to rely on recognized sources. If publications are published in serious publications with reference to Klesov, then everything is another matter.
    1. +1
      1 August 2018 19: 53
      To understand the basics of DNA genealogy, it is enough to have a high school diploma.

      What school did you graduate from - central vocational school? laughing
  26. +1
    4 August 2018 00: 35
    Mikhail Matyugin,

    The Scythian name of the Dnieper is Dan, the Greek is Borisfen, the Roman is Danastr, the Slavic is Slavutich / Dnieper. But the Goths called this river Nysacus, and the city in Gothic - baurgs.

    Why distribute the Nazi fake about Dnaprstadt to VO?
    1. +1
      4 August 2018 04: 07
      Andrei, well, you don’t need to juggle, you yourself asked about the Gothic name of the state capital Germanarich, I answered you, what is the problem? Now you are talking about the name of the Dnieper ... Do not like the opinion of German scientists? so I don’t insist on it either, I just told you an unknown fact and that’s all ...

      To understand the background: in 1850-1852, the Copenhagen Royal Society of Northern Antiquaries published, among other things, two volumes of Antiquites Russes ... These two volumes were published entirely and in fragments of Scandinavian and Icelandic sagas related to Russian history. Among the other monuments published in Antiquites Russes was the famous Hervarasaga. In this saga stands the son of King Heydrek, who reigned in Reidhgotaland, and the capital was Danpstadir (Dnieper City) ... Such a scientist as A. A. Kunik suggested that this "Dnieper city for some time was the capital of the Gothic kingdom." We go further - in the ancient song about Attila, the same word occurs - Danpar, where "... Dnieper places, the famous forest" ... Interpretation of the corrected verse "Hamdis-mal" leads to the fact that this song - one of Edda's oldest songs - is about the capital, I’m ready in some place over a large river in Eastern Europe, over the Danpar, which is naturally identified with the Dnieper ...

      Also, speaking of the ancient capital, it’s ready on the Dnieper, we can say the following: looking for a place on the banks of the Dnieper, which could be the arena of the heroes of “Hamdis-mal”, such a scientist as Wigfusson believed that Danparstadir - the ancient central city on the Dnieper - was certainly Kiev ... it is in Kiev that Wigfusson sees the central point of the Gothic Empire and the capital of Germanaric.

      So, once again, I emphasize your attention - “Russian Antiquities” - were published a century before the formation of the Nazi Reich, and Edda was generally recorded 700 years ago.

      Therefore, as you can see for yourself, Vasmer’s opinion can be one, and the opinion of many other researchers can be different. And a big request - let's not drag ideology into history, nothing good has ever happened from this.
      1. +2
        4 August 2018 13: 54
        You are clearly a writer, not a reader - the Goths didn’t have a word like "Stadt", they had the word "burg" - a settlement surrounded by fortifications (ramparts, palisade, ditch).

        Therefore, the dreams of the Germans of the 19 century about the presence of a "capital" and, accordingly, some Gothic state there in the Black Sea region on the basis of the "Stadt" sucked from a German finger are a vivid example of pulling an owl on a globe.

        To understand the ideological basis of German Nazism - the inventions of Hitler and other adepts about the Aryans - the Germans were built on archaeological excavations of the late 19 - beginning of the 20 century in eastern Austria in the region of the highest concentration of artifacts of the Hallstatt culture of the end of the second millennium BC.
        In addition to numerous finds of weapons and other metal products, ceramic objects were found in Hallstatt with a characteristic swastika sign extruded on them. A lot of burials with burning were also found.
        Without further ado, the Austrians and Germans declared these artifacts to belong to their ancestors, who came to Hallstatt from Scandinavia according to sagas and chronicles (though a thousand years later, but radiocarbon analysis did not exist then). And since the swastika was the most popular at that time in India and was directly registered in the Rigveda and Avesta, which also mentioned the self-name of the people who used the swastika for self-identification, namely “Arya”, the Austrians and Germans immediately ranked themselves to them, misinterpreting the name of the people is “Arien” (hence the “Aryans” in Russian).

        And only in the 21 century was it genetically proven that the arias (so right) of the second millennium BC all polls belonged to R1a carriers, while the Celts (one of the components of the German and Scandinavian population) belong to R1b, the Scandinavians (second component) belong to I1, R1b and R1a, but the northern subclade, which the Aryans do not have, and finally the Western Slavs (the third component) are carriers of R1a, but the eastern subclade, which is not in the unburnt corpses of the Aryans in Hallstatt.

        The sub-R1a of the Hallstattians is the Black Sea, coinciding with the Arians of India, Iran, Anatolia, Palestine, Arabia, Central Asia and Northern China.

        It was the technologically developed Hallstatt arias that came from the Black Sea that put the whole of Western Europe on the ears at the beginning of the first millennium BC. and reformatted all the Basque-speaking Erbins (with the exception of the Basques themselves) into Sanskrit-speaking Celts.

        In Scandinavia, their relatives, the Western European Arians, who migrated to the peninsula a thousand years before the invasion of the Black Sea Aryans, dealt with this earlier.
  27. +1
    29 August 2018 13: 01
    Oh, what a hodgepodge team in the article))) Well, at least what it is:
    the Scandinavians called the warriors Vikings (most likely from the Old Norse vic - "bay", but, possibly, from vig - "war").

    Viking - in the sagas it was called a campaign for prey. Those. Vikings - Scandinavians gathered on this this campaign. For the Scandinavians, the Viking is a profession to consider, for the whole of Europe and not only - this is the generalized name of all Scandinavians as one tribe.
    Kievan Rus as a state is only in ukhistorii. There was no such state, there was no such name, nowhere in the chronicles is there any mention of such a name either in our country or in foreign sources.
  28. 0
    1 October 2018 06: 25
    Where did the Rurikovich DNA come from? How reliable is this?
    1. +1
      4 October 2018 13: 25
      By the burial of descendants.
  29. +1
    4 October 2018 13: 48
    Interestingly written. But I am sure of the truth of the "Veles book" translation of Asov. Slavic "tribes", but rather a society with cities under the elected prince. They had names by place of residence tied to the names of rivers or lakes (many cities have retained or returned the name from the rivers with which they stand). Novgorodians have never been called Ilmen Slavs, no longer trust. Judging by your posts, I concluded that the southern people defeated the northern ones and sent them to where they are now (no matter how you twist the haplogroup), only the remnants of the Norman camp sites remained (maybe an attack camp?). Of course, there are few sources and not every source is true, though ancient, hence there are many fantasies in different directions.
  30. 0
    10 October 2018 21: 50
    I’m very interested in the peculiarity of the interpretation that if in a foreign language there is a word in pronunciation and meaning similar to Russian, then this is a borrowing from foreign languages. Maybe the opposite?
    Then, what does the name of the rivers mean:
    Psel, Sejm, Voronezh - only do not offer hybrids and ravens and hedgehogs.
    From the article it is clear that the Varangians are mercenaries without the Sort and Tribe, only a lot of letters.
    1. -3
      30 December 2018 23: 18
      Quote: Ua3qhp
      From the article it is clear that the Varangians are mercenaries without the Sort and Tribe, only a lot of letters.

      The trouble is not that the bukathmnog, but that the interpretation is not correct.

      On the net you can find Tyunyaev's article about the origin of the word Varangian. So I absolutely agree with him. The basis of VAR with all variations of VIR, VOR, VER, VIR is primordially Russian and the semantic meaning is "protection, defense, preservation". Despite the transparency of the origin of the word VARYAG, all researchers are composing some kind of nonsense. Well, who doesn't have mittens at home? Probably, only in the very south of Russia you will not find such. And what would a mitten be without a diminutive suffix? That's right - VAREGA. Is it so far from the Varyag? What do the varegs do? Protect hands (from cold). And what are the Vikings doing? They also protect, but already people (from the foe). Varangians are professional defenders and warriors. And precisely in Russian. Moreover, the basis of VAR and all derivatives confirm that this is so, and not otherwise. COOK - fresh berry will turn sour, but being cooked it will remain. VORozhei - puts protection, amulet. What does the VRatar do? Protects the GATE. VRag in Russia was called oVRag, a gorge. All the cities with the base of the VR were once border fortresses - VORonezh, Varshava, VARna, etc. Moreover, this very basis with the same meaning can be found in other Romance languages. For example, in the German Bundeswehr and Wehrmacht, this is wehr (ver) it is. In English, warrior means warrior - the same basis for VAR.
      1. -1
        31 December 2018 00: 00
        Quote: McAr
        What are the Waregs doing? Protect hands (from cold)

        And if in Russian - they warm their hands. And where does the Varangians seem to be here? wink

        Quote: McAr
        In English, warrior means warrior - the same basis for VAR

        Cool.

        I'll tell you a secret - all babies, in all languages, at first say "ya". Look for the mega-hidden meaning in this ... it definitely is, you just need to see it laughing

        By the way: in angelic war - this is a war, dragging that ... how is it for you? wink