Military Review

Battle of the Ice: the great battle of Russia against the West

139
5 April 1242, the famous Ice Battle of the Lake Peipsi took place. Russian soldiers under the command of Prince Alexander Nevsky defeated the German knights, who were about to strike at Veliky Novgorod. This date for a long time did not have official recognition as a public holiday. Only 13 of March 1995 was adopted by the Federal Law No. 32-FZ "On the days of military glory (victorious days) of Russia." Then, on the eve of the 50 anniversary of the Victory in the Great Patriotic War, the Russian authorities again attended to the issue of reviving patriotism in the country. In accordance with this law, the day of the celebration of the victory over Lake Peipsi was appointed 18 April. Officially, the memorable date was called "Victory Day of the Russian soldiers of Prince Alexander Nevsky over the German knights on Lake Peipsi".


Interestingly, in the same 1990-ies, Russian political parties of a nationalistic nature, with the suggestion of notorious followers of the writer Eduard Limonov, began to celebrate April 5 on the Day of the Russian Nation, also dedicated to the victory on Lake Peipsi. The difference in dates was due to the fact that the “Limonovtsy” chose to mark the date of April 5 on the Julian calendar, and the official memorable date is considered according to the Gregorian calendar. But the most interesting thing is that, according to the Proleptic Gregorian calendar, which extends to the period before 1582, this date should be celebrated on April 12. But in any case, the very decision itself was to appoint a date to commemorate such a large-scale event in the national stories. Moreover, it was one of the first and most impressive episodes of the clash between the Russian world and the West. Subsequently, Russia will more than once fight with Western countries, but the memory of the soldiers of Alexander Nevsky, who defeated the German knights, is still alive.

Battle of the Ice: the great battle of Russia against the West


The events that will be discussed below unfolded against the background of the total weakening of the Russian principalities during the Mongol invasion. In 1237-1240 the Mongol hordes again invaded Russia. This time was prudently used by Pope Gregory IX for another expansion to the northeast. Then Holy Rome prepared, firstly, a crusade against Finland, at that time still inhabited mainly by pagans, and secondly - against Russia, which was considered by the pontiff as the main competitor of Catholics in the Baltic States.

The Teutonic Order was ideally suited for the role of expansionist intentions. The times, which will be discussed, were the heyday of the Order of heyday. Later, during the Livonian War of Ivan the Terrible, the order was in far from the best condition, and then, in the XIII century, the young military-religious formation was a very strong and aggressive opponent who controlled the imposing territories on the shores of the Baltic Sea. The Order was considered the main conduit for the influence of the Catholic Church in Northeastern Europe and sent its blows against the Baltic and Slavic peoples living in these parts. The main task of the order was the enslavement and conversion of local residents to Catholicism, and if they did not want to accept the Catholic faith, the "noble knights" mercilessly destroyed the "pagans". The Teutonic knights appeared in Poland, called upon the Polish prince to help in the struggle against the Prussian tribes. The conquest of the Prussian lands began, which took place quite actively and rapidly.

It should be noted that the official residence of the Teutonic Order during the described events was still in the Middle East - in the castle of Monfor in the territory of modern Israel (the historical land of Upper Galilee). The Grand Master of the Teutonic Order, the archive and the treasury were housed in Monfort. Thus, top management managed the order possessions in the Baltics remotely. In 1234, the Teutonic Order swallowed up the remnants of the Dobrin Order, created in 1222 or 1228 in Prussia to protect the Prussian episcopacy from attacks by Prussian tribes.



When, in 1237, the remnants of the Order of the Sword (Brotherhood of the Soldiers of Christ) joined the Teutonic Order, the Teutonic people gained control over the possessions of the Sword in Livonia. On the Livonian lands of the Swordsmen, the Livonian Landmaister of the Teutonic Order arose. Interestingly, the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, Frederick II, still in 1224, declared the lands of Prussia and Livonia to be directly subordinate to Holy Rome, and not to the local authorities. The Order became the chief vicar of the papal throne and the spokesman for the papal will in the Baltic lands. At the same time, the course continued for the further expansion of the order in Eastern Europe and the Baltic states.

Back in 1238, the Danish king Waldemar II and the Grand Master of the Order Hermann Balk agreed on the division of the land of Estonia. Novgorod the Great was the main obstacle for the German-Danish knights, and it was precisely against him that the main blow was directed. In alliance with the Teutonic Order and Denmark made Sweden. In July, 1240, the Swedish ships appeared on the Neva, but already 15 in July, 1240, on the banks of the Neva, Prince Alexander Yaroslavich inflicted a crushing defeat on the Swedish knights. For this he was nicknamed Alexander Nevsky.

The defeat of the Swedes did not greatly contribute to the failure of their allies from their aggressive plans. The Teutonic Order and Denmark were going to continue the campaign against North-Eastern Russia in order to implant Catholicism. Already at the end of August 1240, the bishop German Dorptsky set off on a campaign against Russia. He gathered an impressive army of the knights of the Teutonic Order, the Danish knights of the Revel fortress and the militia of Dorpat, and invaded the territory of the modern Pskov region.

Resistance Pskov did not give the proper result. Knights seized Izborsk, and then besieged Pskov. Although the first siege of Pskov did not bring the desired result and the knights retreated, they soon returned and were able to take the Pskov fortress, using the help of the former Pskov prince Yaroslav Vladimirovich and the boyars traitors headed by Tverdilo Ivankovich. Pskov was taken, it housed the knightly garrison. Thus, the Pskov land became a springboard for the actions of the German knights against Veliky Novgorod.

A difficult situation at this time evolved in Novgorod itself. Townsmen in winter 1240 / 1241 were driven out of Novgorod by Prince Alexander. Only when the enemy approached the city very close, they sent messengers to Pereslavl-Zalessky to call Alexander. In 1241, the prince marched on Koporye, captured it by storm, interrupting the knightly garrison there. Then, by March, 1242, Alexander, waiting for the help of Prince Andrew's troops from Vladimir, marched on Pskov and soon took the city, forcing the knights to retreat to the Dorpat bishopric. Then Alexander invaded the Order of the Order, but when the advanced forces were defeated by the knights, he decided to step back and prepare in the area of ​​Lake Peipsi for the main battle. The balance of forces of the parties, according to the sources, was approximately 15-17 of thousands of soldiers from Russia, and 10-12 of thousands of Livonian and Danish knights, as well as the militia of the Dorpat bishopric.



The Russian army was commanded by Prince Alexander Nevsky, and the knights by the landmaster of the Teutonic Order in Livonia, Andreas von Felfen. A native of Austrian Styria, Andreas von Felfen was commander (commandant) of Riga before taking the post of deputy governor of the Order in Livonia. The fact that it was for the commander, shows the fact that he decided not to personally participate in the battle on Lake Peipsi, but remained at a safe distance, transferring the command to the younger order commanders. Danish knights were commanded by the sons of King Valdemar II himself.

As is known, the Crusaders of the Teutonic Order usually used as a battle order the so-called “pig” or “boar's head” - a long column, at the head of which was a wedge from the ranks of the most powerful and experienced knights. Forces of squires followed the wedge, and in the center of the column - infantry from mercenaries - immigrants from the Baltic tribes. A heavily armed knightly cavalry followed along the sides of the column. The meaning of such a construction was that the knights wedged into the enemy, splitting it into two parts, then broke into smaller parts, and only then finished off with the participation of their infantry.

Prince Alexander Nevsky undertook a very interesting move - he had previously placed his forces on the flanks. In addition, Alexander and Andrei Yaroslavich’s cavalry brigade housed in ambush. The Novgorod militia fell in the center, and in front was a chain of archers. Behind, they set up chained wagons, which were supposed to deprive the knights of the ability to maneuver and evade attacks of the Russian army. 5 (12) April 1242, the Russians and knights entered combat contact. The archers first took the onslaught of the knights, and then the knights were able to break through the Russian system with the help of their famous wedge. But it was not there - the heavily armed knightly cavalry got stuck in the train, and then the shelves of the right and left hands moved from the flanks to it. Then the prince's squads entered the battle, who turned the knights to flight. The ice broke through, unable to bear the weight of the knights, and the Germans began to sink. The warriors of Alexander Nevsky chased the knights across the ice of Lake Peipsi seven miles away. The Teutonic Order and Denmark suffered a complete defeat in the Battle of Lake Peipsi. According to the Simeon Chronicle, the Germans 800 were killed and the Chudi "without a number", the 50 knights were captured. Loss of troops of Alexander Nevsky unknown.



The defeat of the Teutonic Order had an impressive effect on his leadership. The Teutonic Order abandoned all territorial claims against Novgorod the Great and returned all lands seized not only in Russia, but also in Latgale. Thus, the effect of the defeat inflicted on the German knights was colossal, primarily in the political sense. To the West, the Ice Battle showed that in Russia, glorious crusaders are waiting for a strong opponent, ready to fight to their homeland to the last. Later, Western historians tried in every way to downplay the significance of the battle on Lake Peipsi — they argued that in fact there were much smaller forces there, then they described the battle as the starting point for the formation of the “myth of Alexander Nevsky”.

The victories of Alexander Nevsky over the Swedes and over the Teutonic and Danish knights had a large-scale significance for further Russian history. Who knows how the history of the Russian land would have been, if the soldiers of Alexander had not won these battles then. After all, the main goal of the knights was the conversion of the Russian lands to Catholicism and the complete subordination to the sovereignty of the order, and through it to Rome. For Russia, therefore, the battle was of decisive importance in terms of preserving national and cultural identity. We can say that the Russian world was forged, including in the battle on Lake Peipsi.

Alexander Nevsky, who defeated the Swedes and Teutons, forever entered Russian history both as a church saint and as a brilliant military leader and defender of the Russian land. It is clear that no less was the contribution and countless warriors of Novgorod and princely warriors. Their history has not kept their names, but for us, who lived 776 years later, Alexander Nevsky - this is, in particular, those Russian people who fought on Lake Peipsi. He became the personification of the Russian military spirit, power. It was during his time that Russia showed the West that she was not going to obey him, that she was a special land with her own way of life, with her people, with her own cultural code. Then the Russian soldiers had to "give too much time" to the West more than once. But the starting point was the battle won by Alexander Nevsky.

Followers of political Eurasianism say that Alexander Nevsky predetermined the Eurasian choice of Russia. During his reign, Rus developed more peaceful relations with the Mongols than with the German knights. At least, the Mongols did not seek to destroy the identity of the Russian people, imposing their beliefs on them. In any case, the political wisdom of the prince was that in difficult times for the Russian land, he was able to relatively secure Novgorod Russia in the east, winning battles in the west. That was his military and diplomatic talents.

776 years have passed, but the memory of the feat of the Russian soldiers in the battle on Lake Peipsi is preserved. In 2000-s, a number of monuments to Alexander Nevsky were opened in Russia - in St. Petersburg, Veliky Novgorod, Petrozavodsk, Kursk, Volgograd, Aleksandrov, Kaliningrad and many other cities. Eternal memory to the prince and to all Russian soldiers who defended their land in that battle.
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  1. Hole puncher
    Hole puncher April 20 2018 05: 25
    +15
    The degradation of the resource, and yet Conda then published otherwise.
    https://topwar.ru/6730-mify-o-ledovom-poboische.h
    tml
    1. Spartanez300
      Spartanez300 April 20 2018 05: 58
      +9
      The new Alexander Nevsky, wise and tough in his affairs, would not hurt us now.
      1. Curious
        Curious April 20 2018 10: 32
        +7

        The author of these words is the Soviet writer Pyotr Andreevich Pavlenko (1899-1951), and they first appeared in his film script “Alexander Nevsky”.
        A similar expression was used as winged as early as Ancient Rome: "He who fights with the sword, dies from the sword" (Quigladioferit, gladio pent).
        1. dSK
          dSK April 21 2018 19: 44
          +1
          Quote: Curious
          The author of these words

          This is a modern translation, short and clear, accessible and understandable.
          “A full hungry one does not understand,” so they say? Moscow was burned four times, Ryazan was cut out, Kozelsk ... We can only "theoretically" imagine how the ancestors got it. "New historians are broadcasting that the Golden Horde is a myth. Soon they will prove to us that Russia is also a" misunderstanding. "
      2. svp67
        svp67 April 20 2018 12: 32
        +4
        Quote: Spartanez300
        The new Alexander Nevsky, wise and tough in his affairs, would not hurt us now.

        And ready to bow to the strong, betraying his brother .... - I don’t know, but I think that in the current situation we need a different Leader.
      3. 97110
        97110 April 21 2018 08: 43
        +1
        Quote: Spartanez300
        The new Alexander Nevsky, wise and tough in his affairs, would not hurt us now.

        What was A. Nevsky there - and different versions were published on VO. Up to the point that it is Genghis Khan disguised as Julius Caesar. So the Americans will write about the posthumous version about the Americans, the Chinese posthumous version, and who else will remain literate of the Syrians after Merkel’s rule ... Descendants will know how wise and tough he was ...
    2. kalibr
      kalibr April 20 2018 07: 58
      +15
      This is a manifestation, alas, of the frank ignorance of many authors and, I would say, their disrespect for the audience considered by them as "people who shun everything." There is such a historical discipline as historiography. It examines who, what, and when wrote about something, which historical schools were present, which sources ... That is, it is necessary to start from this. Further, in any article of such a plan, there should be links to the SOURCE BASE and this database is not a book by WINDS OF KULIKOV FIELD ... And most importantly, it was necessary to start with an article in the newspaper Pravda, for April 5 of 1942 of the year. Readers of VO know that in the series of articles "Poisoned Feather" I found a lot of mistakes and inconsistencies made by this newspaper at that time. But this article could be considered exemplary. And what is the result? Gone from Soviet historiography and ... could not eventually return even to the level of the SOVIET NEWSPAPER THE TRUTH. That is, the level of historical and propaganda publications TODAY has become lower than THEN !!! I'm not talking about the fact that the author should read this article himself ... This is beyond fiction ...
      1. Cat
        Cat April 21 2018 04: 57
        +3
        I will supplement Vyacheslavv Olegovich a little
        Only on March 13, 1995, Federal Law No. 32-ФЗ On the Days of Military Glory (Victory Days) of Russia was adopted.

        This normative legal act is an example of how a competent undertaking brings execution. Perhaps by the number of errors in dates and events, he surpassed everything that was before it was and will be after.
        Now for the article!
        Resonant loud name ........
        Ilya, good advice to you, maybe without fanfare, but in fact ....... I think we would have won the "consumers" from that!
        Yours!
        1. dSK
          dSK April 21 2018 17: 19
          +3
          Quote: Kotischa
          we are consumers
          In the last century there were "readers", "creators" and "creators". We are "systematically" degraded into a herd of "consumers", the main "lure", so that there are "qualified" consumers.
    3. Seal
      Seal April 28 2018 17: 35
      0
      In addition, there is a problem.
      There is one interesting document.
      In 1906, on the eve of the celebration of the 300th anniversary of the Romanov dynasty, the Approved Letter of 1613 on the election of Mikhail Fedorovich Romanov to the Moscow State was re-photographed and reprinted.
      How is it remarkable? And the fact that it was the most important state act, which was not lost (like all kinds of annals), was constantly under protection, was inaccessible for revisions. Still - who dares to edit something in the most important state document !!!
      And what made editing even more difficult was the fact that there were two copies of the Approved Certificate. And on both signatures are all members of the Council. Both copies were stored together, then disconnected, then together again. At the time of publication in 1906, one copy was stored in the Archive of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the other in the Armory.
      In the Approved Charter of 1613 there is an introduction telling about the origin and formation of the Russian State.
      “According to the great sovereign Vladimir Manamakh, I took the scepter of the Russian kingdom of kingdom, his son the great prince Yuri Vladimirovich Dolgoruky, and piety prosiya, and all the peasantry in peace and quiet.
      According to it, a congress at the Russian state in Volodimer, his son the prince the great Vsevolod Yuryevich, a champion of piety and a strong champion for the holy churches, and about the holy Orthodox peasant vrya.
      According to Vsevolod, the scepter of the Russian state contains the son of his prince the great Yaroslav Vsevolodich, he himself will observe God from Batu in Veliky Novograd and with his children and after capturing the godless Batu, the holy and immaculate peasant faith are distributed and renewed by the holy churches.
      According to him, the Great Russian State will take the scepter, his son, the brave prince the great Alexander Yaroslavich, over Germans showing glorious victory on the Neva"And on the peasant faith of the godless Berkay the king, the loyal anger in the horde of tame, and after death, the miracles of God are glorified."

      And what do we see?
      Our ancestors in 1613 recorded that Alexander Yaroslavich on the Neva won a glorious victory over the Germans (Germans) and not over the sveta (Swedes). Of which our ancestors in 1613 very clearly distinguished. But about the "more significant", as is now believed, the victory of Alexander Yaroslavich over the Germans on Lake Peipsi or near it, our ancestors did not mention. Didn't know about her ???
  2. svp67
    svp67 April 20 2018 05: 53
    +8
    Russian soldiers under the command of Prince Alexander Nevsky defeated the German knights who were about to strike at Veliky Novgorod.
    They, the knight dogs, were certainly going to capture Veliky Novgorod, but not this time, since they were VERY busy, they were waging a great war with Lithuania. And therefore, the most combat-ready units went there. What Prince Alexander didn’t fail to take advantage of, knocking out knights from the territories of the Pskov principality seized by him, and then decided to go on an attack on the lands of Livonia. Which is excellent and did capture a large full. But he didn’t take into account that “volunteers” from other Christian countries of Europe went to help the “cross brothers”. So the army of A. Nevsky had to fight with them at the moment of leaving the territory of the “foreign partner”. The battle was fierce and the Russian wars won in it, about which the Livonians even surprisingly wrote about it in their "Rhymed Chronicle" ... that is, they attached great importance to this clash
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 20 2018 07: 48
      +4
      Yes, they did, but only there the numbers are completely different ...
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 20 2018 12: 33
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        Yes, they did, but only there the numbers are completely different ...

        Yes, others ... especially the Russian wars involved. According to them, it turns out that every "divine brother" had to fight 60 Russians
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. Moskovit
      Moskovit April 20 2018 07: 52
      +12
      And who were the Novgorodians? Sumerians? Who spoke Russian, looked like Russians, were Orthodox like Russians, lived according to Russian customs. What a great disguise!
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir April 20 2018 09: 00
        +5
        Sumerians?
        new word on the internet.
        It was about five years ago that I took my wife (I’m originally from the Kaluga region, but has been living in Moscow since 20), to my homeland in the Kirov region. Well gathered for family. My older brother (13 years older) got drunk and started telling stories. So the whole evening he worked as a translator, translating from Russian-Vyatka to Russian-Moscow.
        So in those days, the language of the Novgorodians from the language of the Muscovites differed more than the current Ukrainian from Russian.
        1. Moskovit
          Moskovit April 20 2018 09: 18
          +4
          I have a father-in-law from the Kirov region, maybe I don’t understand a couple of local words, and so, everything is very clear, in any state)). About the language of Novgorod can reference.
          1. Gardamir
            Gardamir April 20 2018 09: 35
            +3
            About the language of Novgorod can reference
            Well, if only a time machine ride. By the way, the Novgorodians organized the Vyatka Veche Republic.
            And yet we must remember that until there was a single state, yesterday drevlyane, Krivichi, Vyatichi, all, Murom, spoke their own languages, what is now called dialects.
            1. Cat
              Cat April 21 2018 05: 16
              +2
              Quote: Gardamir
              About the language of Novgorod can reference
              And yet we must remember that until there was a single state, yesterday drevlyane, Krivichi, Vyatichi, all, Murom, spoke their own languages, what is now called dialects.

              The first question - where does Murom, All have to do with it? In the works of contemporaries, both tribes are related to the Finno-Ugric peoples. Moreover, the ones you mentioned are krivchi as a mystery tribe, in which the Baltic substance is guessed. However, like the Drevlyans - Gothic. No wonder Konstantin Bogryanorodny called them - Germans.
              Question two, where are all these tribes now? The answer is simple in the process of formation of the Old Russian state were assimilated. By whom? Russian! Moreover, the language of communication was Slavic. I think until the 13th century a Novgorodian could talk without a translator with a Pole from Mehovtsev.
          2. Gopnik
            Gopnik April 20 2018 11: 35
            +1
            Google lectures of Zalizniak about the Old Russian language.
        2. evgic
          evgic April 20 2018 09: 20
          +9
          Excuse me, and Muscovites in the 13th century, who is this? For those who in the tank, the term Muscovy appeared in the 15th century in the propaganda of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and then the Commonwealth. As a self-name in Russia has never been used. And we do not need to
          1. Gardamir
            Gardamir April 20 2018 09: 38
            0
            And we do not need to
            Well, here someone likes that. When did the name Russia appear? Or, for example, Sophia-Augusta-Frederica in memory of her ancestors established the Order of the Flowers of the Saxon flag. And now these ribbons are considered a symbol of patriotism.
            1. Gopnik
              Gopnik April 20 2018 11: 32
              +6
              The name Russia first appeared in the 10th century in Greek sources, in the South Slavic from the 14th century, in Russian from the 15th.
              The St. George ribbon - the colors of the Russian coat of arms (black eagle on a golden field), exactly the same colors were the Russian military cockade and officer scarf.
              1. Gardamir
                Gardamir April 20 2018 13: 53
                +3
                colors of the Russian coat of arms (black eagle on a golden field
                Actually, this is the emblem of the Holy Roman Empire.
                1. Gopnik
                  Gopnik April 20 2018 14: 09
                  +3
                  In fact, one does not interfere with the other.
                  But Saxony, by the way, to Sophia-Augusta-Frederick in general no side.
            2. Looking for
              Looking for 3 August 2018 19: 28
              -1
              Let banyat. But I’ll write, -AH YOU SCRAP RUSSIAN !!!
        3. Gopnik
          Gopnik April 20 2018 11: 28
          +3
          Quote: Gardamir
          My older brother (13 years older) got drunk and started telling stories. So the whole evening he worked as a translator, translating from Russian-Vyatka to Russian-Moscow.


          Rather, from Russian-drunk to Russian-sober
          1. NIKNN
            NIKNN April 20 2018 16: 57
            +2
            Quote: Gopnik
            Rather, from Russian-drunk to Russian-sober

            laughing I know one, she stutters a little, but after a glass you can’t understand a single word, and his wife takes it apart ... laughing One must ask in what area they were born ... laughing
    2. Gopnik
      Gopnik April 20 2018 11: 34
      +3
      Quote: K.A.S.
      Interestingly, but the Novgorodians knew that they were Russian?


      Of course. Why not?

      Quote: K.A.S.
      Actually, this is not an ethnos versus an ethnos, but one political institution wanted to expand the zone of influence at the expense of another!


      Duc, this is written. One political institution - the German Order against another - Rus.
  4. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 20 2018 07: 19
    +3
    Another controversial milestone in Russian history. No place found. No artifacts found. It is believed that the chronicler "as they say got it wrong" and attributed the battle of Rakor to Nevsky. Here in the battle of Rakor there really was ice and it was very likely that someone had definitely fallen into the water there. And the battle itself was an order of magnitude larger. So, again. Not everything is so simple. Like the figure of Nevsky himself.
    1. evgic
      evgic April 20 2018 09: 36
      +5
      The battle was. This is reported by more than one chronicle and Western sources. A smaller scale than described
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master April 20 2018 12: 09
      +4
      Quote: Varyag77
      There is an opinion that the chronicler, "as they say, messed up," and attributed the seaside battle to Nevsky.

      There was no ice in the seaside battle. The chronicler could “confuse” the ice slaughter with the battle on Omovzhe, there the Germans were driven out onto the ice and he, too, sort of broke through, many drowned. There is a certain similarity between these battles. By the way, Alxander could easily have been on Omovzhe along with his father, he was about 14 years old then.
      1. Varyag77
        Varyag77 April 21 2018 05: 41
        +2
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Quote: Varyag77
        There is an opinion that the chronicler, "as they say, messed up," and attributed the seaside battle to Nevsky.

        There was no ice in the seaside battle. The chronicler could “confuse” the ice slaughter with the battle on Omovzhe, there the Germans were driven out onto the ice and he, too, sort of broke through, many drowned. There is a certain similarity between these battles. By the way, Alxander could easily have been on Omovzhe along with his father, he was about 14 years old then.

        In the Battle of Rakor, the retreating Livonians were driven along the river. It is believed to be the Pada River. And by the way, they drove just 7 miles. If this is not a Novgorod tradition. Drive the enemy exactly 7 miles. That is a strange coincidence.
        1. Varyag77
          Varyag77 April 21 2018 06: 14
          +1
          Quote: Varyag77
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Quote: Varyag77
          There is an opinion that the chronicler, "as they say, messed up," and attributed the seaside battle to Nevsky.

          There was no ice in the seaside battle. The chronicler could “confuse” the ice slaughter with the battle on Omovzhe, there the Germans were driven out onto the ice and he, too, sort of broke through, many drowned. There is a certain similarity between these battles. By the way, Alxander could easily have been on Omovzhe along with his father, he was about 14 years old then.

          In the Battle of Rakor, the retreating Livonians were driven along the river. It is believed to be the Pada River. And by the way, they drove just 7 miles. If this is not a Novgorod tradition. Drive the enemy exactly 7 miles. That is a strange coincidence.

          In the Novgorod annals of the elder regiment, the Kegol River is mentioned
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 21 2018 22: 17
            +2
            An article entitled "The Battle of Rakovor. Forgotten Victory" was published at the HE. In my opinion, a good article, ready to subscribe to every word. repeat Check out, if not to work, then we discuss here.
  5. Prometey
    Prometey April 20 2018 07: 34
    +3
    What is great there - the usual medieval dismantling of neighbors.
  6. kalibr
    kalibr April 20 2018 07: 47
    +4
    "The balance of power of the parties, according to sources, was approximately 15-17 of thousands of soldiers from Russia, and 10-12 of thousands of Livonian and Danish knights, as well as the militia of the Derpt bishopric."
    I’d like to see such a “little thing” - see these very sources or a link to them. Such a "tiny" reference.
    1. evgic
      evgic April 20 2018 09: 29
      +5
      It is reliably known from the Livonian rhyming chronicle that about forty brothers of the knights participated in the battle, a certain number of pilgrims (i.e. crusaders) and mercenaries from the locals, whom no one considered because there was little sense from them. With the most optimistic estimates, no more than 1500 people, but rather less. The Novgorodians had more strength, but also not tens of thousands.
      1. Varyag77
        Varyag77 April 20 2018 09: 38
        +2
        Quote: evgic
        It is reliably known from the Livonian rhyming chronicle that about forty brothers of the knights participated in the battle, a certain number of pilgrims (i.e. crusaders) and mercenaries from the locals, whom no one considered because there was little sense from them. With the most optimistic estimates, no more than 1500 people, but rather less. The Novgorodians had more strength, but also not tens of thousands.

        The official historian Klim Zhukov, popular in YouTube, says that in general there are 200-300 people on each side. So a hassle and nothing more. It seems to be motivated by the fact that the Livonians had all the forces to suppress the uprising. There was no one to win.
        1. evgic
          evgic April 20 2018 09: 50
          0
          Well, if you count without Estonians, then no more than 500 soldiers on which you can rely in battle, rather less. Therefore, Alexander so boldly and pulled into enemy territory
        2. kalibr
          kalibr April 20 2018 13: 16
          +3
          Do not forget that in 1241 there was a battle at Legnica with the Mongols and the Teutonic knights participated in it and someone died, was wounded. Could not recover by April 1242 ... And there were order locks ... all 90. And every castle is a knight and castellan and ... that's all. And the loss at Legnica, someone was sick, someone did not go ...
      2. BAI
        BAI April 20 2018 10: 28
        +3
        Historians Igor Danilevsky and Klim Zhukov agree that several hundred people participated in the battle.

        So, from the Germans’s side it is 35–40 brothers-knights, about 160 bollards (on average four servants per one knight) and mercenaries-ests (“a miracle without number”), who could “expand” the squad by another 100–200 soldiers . At the same time, by the standards of the XIII century, such an army was considered quite a serious force (presumably, during its heyday, the maximum number of the former Order of the Sword-Bearers, in principle, did not exceed 100-120 knights). The author of the Livonian rhymed chronicle also complained that there were almost 60 times more Russians, which, according to Danilevsky, although an exaggeration, still gives reason to believe that Alexander’s army significantly exceeded the strength of the crusaders.

        So, the maximum number of the Novgorod city regiment, the princely squad of Alexander, the Suzdal detachment of his brother Andrei and the Pskovs who joined the campaign hardly exceeded 800 people.

        1. BAI
          BAI April 20 2018 12: 07
          +7
          Since everyone refers to the Livonian Chronicle, we give an excerpt from it, which is dedicated to the battle:
          2240 The Germans began a battle with them.
          Russians had a lot of shooters
          who courageously accepted the first rush,
          [in front of] the prince's retinue.
          It was visible as a detachment | 29 | knight brothers
          2245 defeated the shooters;
          there was the sound of swords
          and it was visible how helmets were cut.
          Slain on both sides
          fell on the grass.

          2250 Those who were in the army of the knight brothers,
          were surrounded.
          The Russians had such a army
          that every German attacked,
          perhaps sixty people
          . | 30 |
          2255 The Knight Brothers stubbornly resisted,
          but they were overpowered there.
          Part of the derpttsev out
          from the battle, it was their salvation,
          they were forced to retreat.
          2260 Twenty knight brothers were killed there,
          and six were captured.

          That was the course of the battle.
          Prince Alexander was glad
          that he won.


          29. The word banier can mean both “banner”, “banner”, and “squad”, fighting under this banner; here banier is used in its last meaning and denotes a wedge-shaped construction characteristic of order knights - the “pig” of Russian chronicles.

          30. The number sixty, apparently, serves as a symbol of superiority in number, since it is also found in the “Rhymed Chronicle” when describing another battle between Germans and Russians: ein dutscher muste geben strit || wol sechzic Ruen ... (v. 7634-7635).
          1. kalibr
            kalibr April 20 2018 13: 34
            +3
            Good text analysis. Here I fully support you!
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 20 2018 14: 32
            +3
            Quote: BAI
            The number sixty seems to be the symbol here.

            Like
            Quote: BAI
            the dead fell on the grass.

            As in the Russian chronicles when they write about the persecution on the "seven versts" it does not at all mean that the persecution was exactly seven versts.
            Livonian rhymed chronicle, do not forget about it, a poetic work intended to be chanted in the chimney hall in order to inspire novices to feats. Therefore, the author used the literary cliches adopted at that time — sixty per one, killed on grass, swords rang, etc.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr April 20 2018 18: 18
              +2
              Yes, but he could not think of the number of brothers killed for they remembered prayers, and praying not for the deceased was really a terrible sin. So a cliche is a cliche, but the number of knights killed is a fact. And what grass in April? That is dry, yes ... but otherwise snow and ice ...
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master April 20 2018 19: 21
                +3
                Quote: kalibr
                Yes, but he could not think of the number of brothers killed.

                Vyacheslav Olegovich, the number of killed knights cannot be exaggerated, but it can be underestimated, in any case, in such a work as LRH. And on their grass, the dead fall regardless of the season and the knight brothers fight in the ratio 1: 60 in all the battles that are described in LRH. For example, about the battle of Rakovor:
                The Lord helped to win this time:
                After all, every German had to fight
                Against sixty Russians, 7635
                It's true. I know for sure.

                And their swords are ringing, although the sounds of their blows that on the shield, that the helmet or armor resemble the sound of nothing more than the hiss of a flying arrow at the whistle attributed to it. Although the arrows are not so clear.
                The Russians in their annals are also consistent: that after the Battle of the Ice, that after Rakovorsky, the Germans were persecuted precisely “seven miles”.
                That is, that the Russians, that the Germans, had certain phrases that must be used when telling about some events, that's all.
    2. Prometey
      Prometey April 20 2018 10: 35
      +3
      Quote: kalibr
      "The balance of power of the parties, according to sources, was approximately 15-17 of thousands of soldiers from Russia, and 10-12 of thousands of Livonian and Danish knights, as well as the militia of the Derpt bishopric."

      Exorbitant army size for the Middle Ages. These are not states who fought, but a city and a knightly order. They did not know anything about mobilization then.
  7. kalibr
    kalibr April 20 2018 08: 47
    +4
    By the way, the picture with the battle plan was taken from the school textbook, which says that in the center of the "pig" ran infantry in armor armed with axes (!). Now this textbook is disavowed and withdrawn from school practice.
    1. evgic
      evgic April 20 2018 09: 33
      +4
      All pictures with the course of the battle are complete nonsense and fiction. To date, we do not know the place of the battle, nor the exact number of participants. Scientists believe that the battle anywhere just not on the ice of Lake Chudskoy, since at that time in the 13th century it was already warm, no one would dare ride a horse on ice.
      1. igordok
        igordok April 20 2018 14: 17
        +2
        Quote: evgic
        All pictures with the course of the battle are complete nonsense and fiction. To date, we do not know the place of the battle, nor the exact number of participants.

        I agree.
        Quote: evgic
        Scientists believe a battle anywhere just not on ice чlake, since at that time in the 13 century it was already warm, no one would dare ride a horse on ice.

        Year to year is not necessary. This year, a week ago, we went fishing in cars. True, already one car managed to fail. What the weather was then, is not known for certain.
        In my understanding, the battle was on the eastern shore of the Warm Lake, very swampy and also covered with ice. But the retreat of the knight dogs was on the ice of the swamps, and possibly on the ice of Peipsi (with a capital letter) of the lake.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master April 20 2018 14: 43
        +4
        Quote: evgic
        Scientists believe that the battle anywhere just not on the ice of the lake of Chuya, since at that time it was already warm in the 13 century, no one would risk riding a horse on the ice.

        "Scientists" can count anything. Calculate climate change, measure the thickness and strength of ice on different parts of the lake and with all the irrefutability to prove that access to the lake is impossible in April, but two troops could meet only if one of them crossed the lake on ice, because they were originally on different shores.
        Proceeding from the chronicles, during this campaign, Alexander and the army crossed the lake twice - there and back, and the Germans once - there. Not all returned back and apart.
  8. BAI
    BAI April 20 2018 10: 08
    +5
    The ice broke, unable to bear the weight of the knights, and the Germans began to sink. Warriors of Alexander Nevsky pursued the knights on the ice of Lake Peipsi for seven miles.

    This legend has already been discussed at VO. There was no battle on ice. It was on the shore and "the grass was visible from under the snow."
    Speaking of the severity of the knights.
    According to historians, if the difference in weight was, then it is extremely insignificant.

    Indeed, on both sides, exclusively heavily armed horsemen participated in the battle (it is believed that all assumptions about infantrymen are a transfer of the military realities of subsequent centuries to the realities of the XNUMXth century).


    And in general - a blow with a savvy hoof on the ice - will nullify all differences in weight.
    1. Prometey
      Prometey April 20 2018 10: 36
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      And in general - a blow with a savvy hoof on the ice - will nullify all differences in weight.

      Of course, it makes no difference to the ice under whose hoof it breaks.
  9. Opera
    Opera April 20 2018 10: 17
    +7
    Prince Alexander is great not only with his deeds of 1240 and 1242. These battles were nothing more than an attempt to European integration of our ancestors by force, as they would say now. In 1252, papal ambassadors Cardinals arrived to Alexander in Vladimir, who tried to persuade the prince to accept the Catholic faith by flattering promises and the promise of all possible benefits! The prince listened and politely asked to wait in response, citing the need to consult with his comrades! Our ancestors were also polite people. The prince consulted with the metropolitan and the boyars, who together decided to remember the events of 1240 and 1242. organized by the papal curia, didn’t break off then it doesn’t break off now! The answer was in the sense that we know in whom and what we believe about that; you are not a decree to us! Of course, this was a prelude to all subsequent attempts by integrators and peaceful, lying and bloody. Our answer was always in the spirit of the words of our Grand Duke Alexander Nevsky! Not stupid people were our ancestors — they knew what they were doing!
    1. Opera
      Opera April 20 2018 11: 42
      +5
      Well, as for the comments above that the famous words were not spoken by Alexander and there were few knights and a fairy tale about ice and ... All generations of Russian people hear something similar from you "well-wishers". The good news is that the farther the more your statements sound more naive and naive. Alexander Nevsky did not say literally a phrase about who will come to us with a sword ...? I am sure he said something like that! And more than once! And not two! I am sure he expressed himself even more succinctly and intelligibly in some acute moments that did not imply diplomacy and pathos! People who were literate were able to send so that all sorts of knights and comrades, papal ambassadors cardinals and other European integrators forgot the road for a long time! The essence of the matter is that it’s time for us to erect a monument to Prince Alexander Nevsky with a pointing hand with a sword towards the west, and write on the monument - remember, Orthodox, there is a threat lurking there! And especially for those who do not know - in 1547, at the church council, the prince was canonized! Really for the fact that with friends he marked a bunch of lost knights ?!
      1. Curious
        Curious April 20 2018 13: 32
        +8
        The essence of the matter is that it’s time for us to erect a monument to Prince Alexander Nevsky with a pointing hand with a sword towards the west, and write on the monument - remember, Orthodox, uriapatriots are the main threat to Russia. Fear them. I am sure he said something like that! And more than once! And not two! I am sure he expressed himself even more succinctly and intelligibly in some acute moments that did not imply diplomacy and pathos!
        1. Opera
          Opera April 20 2018 14: 04
          +2
          And in our country, Poroshenko is laughing at his statement, as the Kiev princes founded Moscow ... It is clear that everything is much more serious! Thank you for the comment!
        2. Cat
          Cat April 21 2018 05: 27
          +2
          I applaud with all my paws !!!
  10. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 20 2018 11: 30
    +4
    Quote: Prometey
    Exorbitant army size for the Middle Ages. These are not states who fought, but a city and a knightly order. They did not know anything about mobilization then.

    But why is it exorbitant? Historians they are such historians. But Svyatoslav 40-60 thousand. Is it reliable?
    And in the battle of Lipitsa where almost 10 thousand were only killed. It’s unlikely that they killed everyone straight. that is, the army was 15-20 thousand. ? and this is not the norm?
    And Macedonian 60 thousand does not cause doubt?
    Even historians selectively approach the number of troops. When profitably reduced. when not profitable increase. and both justify it. Fortune telling is all.
    Look at the Tatars so generally thrown from 300 thousand to 30. In 10-20 years they will probably say that 300 PEOPLE came with a godfather Batu to work. The Russians even refused to pay, well, here it started.
    1. Moskovit
      Moskovit April 20 2018 12: 36
      +9
      The size of the battle can be estimated by its consequences. The result is the rejection of expansion, the return of the occupied lands and the acquisition of new ones. Is it possible to get all this in a minor skirmish, where 20 people died?
      And songs about "no losses" began from even more ancient times. This is a favorite German-Ukrainian tradition. And 20 killed per German. And about 60 to 1. Hordes of Bolsheviks, Buryats, horse divers ..
  11. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 20 2018 11: 47
    +2
    Quote: Curious

    The author of these words is the Soviet writer Pyotr Andreevich Pavlenko (1899-1951), and they first appeared in his film script “Alexander Nevsky”.
    A similar expression was used as winged as early as Ancient Rome: "He who fights with the sword, dies from the sword" (Quigladioferit, gladio pent).

    Kourios, you beat me a little, but I am grateful to you: I did not know the fundamental principles of this expression
  12. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 20 2018 11: 56
    +3
    Quote: K.A.S.
    Interestingly, but the Novgorodians knew that they were Russian?
    I am shocked by the article! Ethen the Battle of Ice: the great battle of Russia against the West.
    Actually, this is not an ethnos versus an ethnos, but one political institution wanted to expand the zone of influence at the expense of another! The Russian princes had very good relations, for example, with Barbarossa and even at European houses they seemed to be not like strangers, for example, Anna Russian.
    probably the next article will be devoted to the robbery of the signtuna by the Novgorodians! And the attack of Russia to the west is called!

    When I started reading: “the great battle of Russia against the West“ I was sure that the next paragraph would be about the evil “matrix”, Samsonova recalls
  13. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master April 20 2018 11: 58
    +7
    I thought that I read Samsonov. I was surprised to read the name of the author. Did Samsonov hunt him down and bit him? Otherwise, to explain such a superficial article is difficult.
    According to the article.
    The topic is widely known and is highlighted in sources from all sides. If you write an article on this topic, you need to read a lot so as not to slip into banalities, the author used well if a couple of monographs of half a century ago. And the theme of the confrontation of Russia and
    West
    it's something with something ...
    Russia fought against Catholics from the time of Yaroslav the Wise, in Galicia and Volyn the clashes with the Poles and Hungarians did not stop as early as the 10th century. Even in the Baltics, they fought with the Germans from the beginning of the 13th century, lost their lower and middle areas, Yuriev, won the Omovzhe ... And after another quarter of a century they fought almost without interruptions.
    The question of the "betrayal" Tverdilya, and especially Prince Yaroslav (cousin Nevsky, by the way) should also be discussed.
    The controversy over the battlefield is not at all covered by the author.
    The number of armies is indicated by the sources "of the times of Ochakovsk and the conquest of the Crimea"
    There are plenty of comments.
    In general, the author needs to prepare better for the publication of such materials.
  14. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 20 2018 12: 01
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    By the way, the picture with the battle plan was taken from the school textbook, which says that in the center of the "pig" ran infantry in armor armed with axes (!). Now this textbook is disavowed and withdrawn from school practice.

    But the author has his own opinion on this subject
  15. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 20 2018 12: 15
    +3
    I went to school and remember how they told us about this battle, wrote a statement, I remember the movie, where this battle is colorfully shown. Already being an adult, 9 years ago, he acquired the “History of the Russian State” and what was my surprise when I did not find this about Karamzin. I was shocked: Karamzin did not "know" about this, and Soviet historians "knew" well
    1. Moskovit
      Moskovit April 20 2018 12: 27
      +1
      Karamzin did not know much. What a century it was.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 20 2018 13: 09
        +4
        And Kluchesky didn’t write ... and count how many lines there are in the annals of the Novgorod Great Exodus about the Battle of Neva and along the “Slaughter”. By the way, there is a very interesting scientific article on the web on the topic RUSSIAN CHRISTIAN SOURCES ABOUT THE VICTORY. The whole genesis of this event is traced there. How the number of dead and prisoners increased when drowned in ice appeared ... But the best material, in my opinion, is the article in True from April 5 to 1942 of the year. That's not all in the USSR was bad, not all!
  16. Opera
    Opera April 20 2018 15: 43
    +7
    Well, at the request of the population about the sources and about the alleged insignificance and "low writtenness" of the Battle of the Ice!)
    1st Novgorod Chronicle.
    1st Sofia Chronicle.
    Resurrection Chronicle.
    Simeonov Chronicle.
    Next are the annals of the Pskovs, who were known to be participants in the events: the Tihanov list of the 1st Pskov annals, the 2nd Pskov annals and the 3rd Pskov annals.
    Those who wish can easily get acquainted.) From these chronicles we learn that Alexander first liberated Pskov and then fought with the Germans on ice along which barefoot and led prisoners of war across the ice of the lake ...
    dalle - the Rostov annals tell us about Alexander’s victory over the Germans "In the summer of 6750 ... and fight with them on Lake Chudskoye ... and defeat and drive 7 versts across the ice, chop them off."
    Further - the Suzdal story about the Battle of the Ice from the Lavrentievsky Chronicle of 1377 - "... The Germans are victorious ... on the lake, and full of a lot of captivity ..."
    I can still list a lot ...)
    And finally, the Life of Alexander Nevsky compiled by a contemporary. Known in several editions. In particular, in the 2nd edition, as the Novgorod 1st annals of the younger edition (i.e. the first type) there is a rather detailed story about the Battle of the Ice. Everything there is about a grand victory. And about the many prisoners and about miracles that were not considered, and about the ice it was said which was not visible from the blood!
    Who, of course, is not a chronicle, and a chronicle is not a code! In general, to whom the mare’s bride is! Do we convince them ?!))) I’ll say more - you should not even do this! The apostle said that heretics should also be tried no more than three times to turn the true path. Next, you need to stop talking because the process itself becomes useless and harmful!
    1. alsoclean
      alsoclean April 20 2018 18: 56
      +3
      It certainly is. It is certainly true. But questions arise:
      1. Where are these without numbers killed? Where are the remains, fragments of bones, armor? At the bottom? In the ground? Excavations were? There were. Looking for searched? Searched. Peipsi lake in place? On the spot. Why didn’t anyone find anything ?? If the loss is up to 100 people on both sides - I understand. And if thousands (!!) how is it?
      2. The Russians drove the Germans on ice. The Germans were drowning, but the Russians were not. What is it like?
      3. It's April. Winter was cold, spring too. Brave to eat, on a horse ride on a Miracle ride ?? Just like that without shields, swords and chain mail. But then it was warmer
      4. Please go to the "studio" order garrison in Pskov. Quantitatively. What do the annals write there? Pskov and others.
      5. And again about the number. How many troops Alexander could have estimated. It is completely its own squad, brothers, Novgorodians, partly Pskovites and others. How much the order could have. Also quite solvable. Subject to other combat showdowns of the order in other places. As well as the conflict with the Riga Archbishop and the Danes
      Well, in the final. About the extremes. It’s not worth it. The history of the country will not benefit from this.
      Just talk should not be stopped. It's worth talking about history. And about heretics and a mare - it's a matter of taste, of course ...
      1. igordok
        igordok April 20 2018 20: 16
        +2
        Quote: alsoclean
        2. The Russians drove the Germans on ice. The Germans were drowning, but the Russians were not. What is it like?

        You can drive along the shore, not allowing the enemy to enter the firmament.
        Quote: alsoclean
        3. It's April. Winter was cold, spring too. Brave to eat, on a horse ride on a Miracle ride ?? Just like that without shields, swords and chain mail. But then it was warmer

        In addition to experts, meteorologists also gathered at the HE. laughing How does everyone know that it was warmer that year? Horses are not used today, for lack of. But the car for the fisherman, a sweet thing. Two weeks ago we were still driving, though one failed. If it were not for the edge along the coast, but not the admission of the Ministry of Emergencies, there were still enough fanatic fishermen on the lakes, even now.
        1. alsoclean
          alsoclean April 20 2018 22: 11
          +2
          Quote: igordok
          How does everyone know that it was warmer that year?

          There are historical sources about the "temperature optimum". One has only to want to find them.
          No horses are used now, for lack of

          Yes you what! The horses are all extinct! Like mammoths! And if I find it?
          And here’s the car for the fisherman, nice thing

          Well there were warriors - not fishermen
          though one failed.

          ABOUT! How! And in a horse's hoof, the specific pressure is an order of magnitude higher wink
          You can drive along the shore, not allowing the enemy to enter the firmament.

          Well, they drove it on the back. And then you were at the Miracle? If the Germans fled back and forth (along the path along which they came) then where should the Russians jump along the coast? They (the Russians) will not catch up with the Germans - they’ll speed up the other way laughing
    2. Curious
      Curious April 20 2018 19: 58
      0
      And where are the sources from the "other side"? After all, the historian must consider all sources impartially. Or do patriotic historians not bother with the consideration of "enemy writings"?
    3. Varyag77
      Varyag77 April 20 2018 20: 41
      0
      Quote: Oper
      and defeat and drive 7 miles across the ice, chopping them. "

      This is purely about the battle of fate. Absolutely. Coincidence? don't think wink
      I suspect that Alexander was simply attributed to Rokovor, calling the Battle of the Ice. and about rocovar, by the way, they’re not particularly mentioned anywhere. Is it because of fears that they will find out another battle?
      To the question of why this is needed. I will answer right away. mass options. But most likely, to magnify Nevsky. possible with canonization. decided that it looks a little liquid.
      Incidentally, the battle of Rokov doesn’t advertise in a strange way, just as with Molodi. Although both of them are very significant and can be said to be decisive in their period of time.
  17. kalibr
    kalibr April 20 2018 18: 23
    +1
    Quote: Oper
    on which barefoot and led prisoners on the ice of the lake ...

    So barefoot on the ice of the lake and led? I remember this place ... but on the ice of the lake? And a year ... 1377 ... after 100 years did you know better? But in a number of annals they even confuse a saint whose day the battle was .. It’s nothing, right? By the way, in the Ipatiev Chronicle of the battle there is nothing at all. They did not notice her in the south-west of Russia. So you also need to be able to work with sources. Going online alone is not enough. See the 166 and 167 pages of the Novgorod annals of the Elder. There are no about barefoot knights ...
    1. Nehist
      Nehist April 20 2018 20: 31
      0
      Well, the Ipatiev Chronicle of the Galicia-Volyn Principality. And Daniil Romanovich and Alexander Yaroslavovich were in contra! Daniel at that time fought with the Horde, unlike Alexander, who agreed with the Horde
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 20 2018 22: 05
        +2
        That's right, but ... why not notice? But do not write down the annals ... the written matter was charitable. The great sin was to sin by thinking with the evil one against the Lord. The sin of adoration is to know and not to say!
        1. Nehist
          Nehist April 20 2018 22: 17
          0
          Well, you don’t even need to know how the chroniclers of the Russian principalities described the same event, especially those in opposite camps. When winning, increase the number of defeated enemies and, when spawned, reduce their numbers. And sometimes episodes were generally hushed up. Most likely, against the background of the constant confrontation of the Galician principality of Horde, an episodic incident in the north-west was considered an ordinary skirmish that was constant in the Galician principality.
  18. ee2100
    ee2100 April 20 2018 19: 00
    +5
    Mr. I. Polonsky's article sucks! Suitable for propaganda reading, but not as for the "history" section. If he received (will receive) money for it - a flag in his hands! Most comments or criticisms are in the case. No doubt about it. The battle was. That which is not on the lake is 100%. Novgorodians won - yes. Whether Alexander Yaroslavovich stopped the Catholic "expansion" in Russia is a very big question. Most likely no one thought of the "expansion" of the Catholics. Who prevented them from converting the inhabitants of Pskov to Catholicism, which they “captured” and held for about 2 years? Of course, for official science, it is very inconvenient to bring together historians and all interested people and discuss from different perspectives all the "key" milestones in Russian history and make a generalized opinion (s) on them. Regarding the so-called “Ice battle” I have my own opinion based on documents and personal common sense.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 20 2018 19: 22
      +6
      The most detailed and detailed account of the Battle of the Ice is found in the Novgorod 1 th Anniversary of the elder.
      “In the summer of 6750. Go Prince Oleksandr from Novgorodtsi and with his brother Andrei and from Nizovtsi to Chyudskoye land on Nemtsi and all the way to Pskov. And drive out Prince Pskov, seized Nemtsi and Chyud, and, having fettered, sweat to Novgorod, and you will go to Chyud. And like being on the earth, let the regiment go into prosperity, and Domash Tverdislavich and Kerbet were in the runway, and I sat down Nemtsn and Chyud at the bridge, and that one. And you kill that Domash, the brother of the posadnik, the husband is honest, and you and I beat him, and you took the hands of him and you resorted to the prince to the prince. The prince, however, climbed up to the lake, while Nemtsi and Chyud went about them. Uzrev was Prince Oleksandr and Novgorodtsp, having set up a regiment on Lake Chyudskoye, on Uzmen, at Voronya Kameni. And we rode to the regiment Nemtsi and Chyud, and wounding a pig through the regiment. And fast that slash is great Germans and Miracles. God and St. Sophia and the holy martyr Boris and Gleb, for her sake, for the sake of Novgorod, shed his blood, those holy saints with great prayers, help God to Prince Alexander. But Nemtsi is that scum, and Chyuda gives a shoulder; and, hurriedly, beating them on 7 versts on the ice to the Subolichsky shore. And Pade Chyudy beschnsla, and the German 400, and 50 hands Yasha and Nrnvedosh in Novgorod. And with the month of April in 5, in memory of the holy martyr Claudius, for the praise of the Holy Virgin, and the Sabbath. ”(18)

      In the Synodal list, this story is written in the third semi-articulation of the 30 of the XIV century, however, it obviously goes back to one of the Novgorod annals of the middle of the XIII century, compiled during the churches of St. Jacob and St. Sophia. (19) This story has a specific Novgorodian coloring (it refers to the help of St. Sophia and the princes Boris and Gleb, in contrast to the Pskov annals, which says about the help of the Holy Trinity) and provides interesting details:

      1. in the liberation of Pskov participated, in addition to the Novgorodians with Prince Alexander, Suzdal and his brother Alexander Prince Andrew;

      2. Before expelling the Germans from Pskov, Prince Alexander occupied all the roads leading to the city;

      3. Having expelled the Germans from Pskov, Prince Alexander sent prisoners to Novgorod, and he himself transferred military operations to the Peipsi land;

      4. Domash Tverdislavich, brother of the posadnik, and Kerbet were sent to the "rogue", ie horse reconnaissance, (20) while the main forces were engaged in a military operation to collect food and forage from the population of the enemy side; (Xnumx)

      5. Russian intelligence met the Germans in the gati, “near the bridge” (maybe near the present Moost) and was defeated: Domash Tverdislavich was killed, and the rest were either taken prisoner or fled to Prince Alexander;

      6. Upon learning of the movement of German forces, Prince Alexander turned back onto the ice of Lake Peipsi;

      7. Germans and Chud began to pursue him;

      8. Prince Alexander put his troops on Uzmen, at Raven Stone;

      9. the Germans and the Chud broke the Russian army “pig”, but were defeated;

      10. Russians chased and fled running enemies throughout 7 versts to the Subolichsky coast;

      11. the losses of the Germans amounted to 400 people killed, 50 - prisoners, the loss of miracles was large - "best."

      12. date of the Battle of the Ice - 5 April 1242 g., Saturday, the day of memory of the "martyr" Claudius and praise to the Virgin;

      13. all prisoners were brought to Novgorod.
      1. Curious
        Curious April 20 2018 20: 05
        +2
        “This sober approach (to assessing the significance of the Battle of Ice) does not find proper recognition in Russia. On the contrary, there are symptoms that in the near future a combination of two heroic traditions - the“ Orthodox ”and the“ geopolitical ”will be popular. Meanwhile, from the fact that we’ll calmly talk about the Battle of the Ice and stop attributing to it “fateful significance” for Russian history, the heroism of Russian soldiers will not decrease, and the blood shed by them for the Fatherland will not become less hot and red. It’s not even a matter of establishing an “objective truth "(Yes, and who knows what it is?). This is about fixing certain values ​​in the public mind. And if we thoughtlessly repeat the characteristics of the Cold War and the tough opposition to the rest of the world, fixed in our minds by the school history of the USSR, instead of calmly understanding the essence of the matter, it is unlikely that our society will become more stable, and our relations with our closest neighbors - more friendly. "
        Igor Nikolaevich Danilevsky "Battle of the Ice: a change of image" - http://magazines.russ.ru/oz/2004/5/2004_5_2.html#
        t9
        This is if someone wants to read an article written by a historian, and not, sorry, Polonsky.
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik April 21 2018 00: 10
          +2
          Some verbiage, zero facts, but a lot of water. At least in this passage. And since everything is simple, if people of the Middle Ages attached "fateful significance" to them, then they are all the more visible, since we were talking about their fate.
          1. Curious
            Curious April 21 2018 00: 19
            +1
            And to go to the link that is given - is the task obviously overwhelming?
            1. Gopnik
              Gopnik April 21 2018 00: 34
              +3
              What for? I do not like Danilevsky, he is an empty trendball. Gorsky, I respect and pity, he writes something new and interesting, and does not pour water on the basis of hundreds of already chewed-chewed sources published as far back as the century before last.
              1. Curious
                Curious April 21 2018 01: 20
                +1
                Why write a comment then to remind yourself once again, or to reveal what you even read Gorsky? And what did he write on this issue?
                1. Gopnik
                  Gopnik April 21 2018 09: 57
                  +3
                  And why did you send an empty comment, in the style of the report of the party meeting - "it is necessary to deepen, an innovative approach, a sober look, blood for the Fatherland, value attitudes," etc., etc., water. It’s amusing and indicative that Danilevsky finally licked Fennel, saying that from the side we know better where we are, to the correct assessments of our own history, foreigners know better the cultural nation ..
                2. Gopnik
                  Gopnik April 21 2018 10: 06
                  +2
                  To show Danilevsky’s level, I’ll quote from one of his interviews, where, once again, he expels the horde essence of Moscow, the origins of Moscow despotism, and other nonsense:
                  "Some Moscow princes were mounds.
                  “What does that mean?”
                  “That means their wives were from the Genghis family.”
                  And this nonsense is written by a doctor of historical sciences. It is a pity that he was not asked to name at least two such princes, since he writes about them in the plural
                  1. Curious
                    Curious April 21 2018 13: 10
                    0
                    Your fiery speech is understandable, it allows you to judge that in spite of Gorsky’s recitation, whose works on the Battle of Ice you never brought, you, nevertheless, do not cover all the horizons of historical thought, and not only modern. Have you read Vernadsky? Can you refute?
                    1. Gopnik
                      Gopnik April 21 2018 19: 45
                      +1
                      Why should I give some work of Gorsky on the Battle of the Ice ???
                      What exactly does Vernadsky have?
                      1. Curious
                        Curious April 22 2018 00: 03
                        0
                        "Why should I give some work of Gorsky on the Battle of the Ice ??? "
                        We discussed a specific historical issue. You yourself wrote that Danilevsky is not a historian, but Gorsky, yes, a historian. Did you write this at all or in relation to the issue under discussion?
                        "What exactly does Vernadsky have?"
                        For example, "Two Feats of St. Alexander Nevsky."
      2. Operator
        Operator April 20 2018 21: 13
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        the Germans' losses amounted to 400 people killed, 50 - prisoners, the loss of miracles was great - "best

        If the losses of the Germans amounted to 450 people, then the loss of a miracle can be estimated in 4500. Then the total number of the enemy was at the level of 5000 people.

        And if so, then the Battle of Ice was a very significant battle for the conditions of North-East Europe in the first half of the 13 century.
        1. Nehist
          Nehist April 20 2018 22: 20
          +1
          Given that nothing like a war cost anything, it just ran away. And the miracles could not collect so many men. The population was even minuscule compared to the 15th century.
          1. Operator
            Operator April 20 2018 22: 32
            +1
            "Run away", "scanty population" - a link to a written document of the time in the studio.
            1. Nehist
              Nehist April 20 2018 22: 50
              +4
              The fact that they ran up here brought a bunch of annals. Well, according to the population ... They instilled in the example of Novgorod. It is true that more or less regularly census of the population there began only in the 15th century, the population was about 50 thousand. Accordingly, it is not difficult to estimate how it was at the beginning of the 13th century, about 15 thousand of all inhabitants. So make a conclusion how many of them can be collected for war without prejudice. Miraculously, in general, even a tribal, mendicant system of the tribes lived, Tribes rarely enriched more than 300-500 people.
              1. Operator
                Operator April 21 2018 10: 49
                +1
                "Here, vaccinated," - two times a shell doesn’t fall into one funnel, no? laughing

                The casket opens simply - the level of development of productive forces in agriculture in North-Eastern Europe has been changing from the beginning of the Iron Age to the 15 century. Therefore, the population of the region has been stable all this time. So the people of the chud had enough to collect 4000-5000 people to plunder Novgorod.

                Separately, it gives you confidence that 13-300 people lived in the territory of today's Estonia in the 500 century laughing
                1. Nehist
                  Nehist April 21 2018 12: 09
                  0
                  You apparently can't read? For you as a gifted person. Tribal communities nourished 300-500 people. And how many of these communities were in Estonia, history is silent. And yes, the successful expansion of the order is due precisely to the fragmentation of the communes of both the Livs and the Estonians.
  19. tiaman.76
    tiaman.76 April 20 2018 19: 36
    +1
    I advise about the type of ice battle to watch the program with Klim Zhukov .. https: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = nELIn91S
    T3Qsee ... informative!
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 April 20 2018 19: 48
      +1
      sucks
      1. tiaman.76
        tiaman.76 April 20 2018 22: 34
        +1
        you yourself sucks ... chukhonsky
    2. Gopnik
      Gopnik April 21 2018 00: 11
      +1
      Beetle clown
      1. alsoclean
        alsoclean April 22 2018 14: 29
        +2
        Your luck that you Klim Sanych did not say it in person. He’s a sharp man - he doesn’t favor a gopot
        1. tiaman.76
          tiaman.76 April 24 2018 13: 24
          0
          wink strongly agree
  20. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet April 20 2018 20: 45
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    Russian soldiers under the command of Prince Alexander Nevsky defeated the German knights who were about to strike at Veliky Novgorod.
    They, the knight dogs, were certainly going to capture Veliky Novgorod, but not this time, since they were VERY busy, they were waging a great war with Lithuania. And therefore, the most combat-ready units went there. What Prince Alexander didn’t fail to take advantage of, knocking out knights from the territories of the Pskov principality seized by him, and then decided to go on an attack on the lands of Livonia. Which is excellent and did capture a large full. But he didn’t take into account that “volunteers” from other Christian countries of Europe went to help the “cross brothers”. So the army of A. Nevsky had to fight with them at the moment of leaving the territory of the “foreign partner”. The battle was fierce and the Russian wars won in it, about which the Livonians even surprisingly wrote about it in their "Rhymed Chronicle" ... that is, they attached great importance to this clash

    There were no knight dogs. From the word at all. The term arose due to an error in the translator. There were just knights: Reuters in German .... bully
    1. dSK
      dSK April 21 2018 18: 14
      0
      Quote: Dzafdet
      There were just knights: Reuters in German

      Yes, yes, so white, "noble and fluffy.
      Military Review ● Opinion. April 20, 04:48.
      "The first American state lie was 120 years old."
  21. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet April 20 2018 20: 52
    0
    In 1241, an army under the command of Alexander went on a campaign, reached Koporye, took possession of the fortress “and spewed the hail from the foundation, and beat the German themselves, and let others go to Novgorod, and let others go, more mercifully than the measures, and the warriors and д Thyudes of followers (that is, traitors) izvesha (hanged). " Volskaya pyatina was cleansed of the Germans. The right flank and rear of the Novgorod troops were now safe.

    In March 1242, the Novgorodians again set out on a campaign and were sooner near Pskov. Alexander, believing that he did not have enough strength to attack a strong fortress, was expecting his brother Andrei Yaroslavich with the Suzdal ("lower") squads, which soon came up. The order did not manage to send reinforcements to its knights. Pskov was surrounded, and the knight's garrison was taken prisoner. Alexander sent the order of governors in fetters to Novgorod. In battle, 70 noble order brothers and many ordinary knights were killed.


    According to L. N. Gumilyov, the number of knights was small - only a few dozen; they were supported by foot temniks, armed with spears, and allies of the Order - by the Livs. (Gumilev L.N. From Russia to Russia. M., 1992. S. 125.)

    With long spears, the Germans attacked the center (“brow”) of the Russian order. "Here are the banners of the brothers entered the ranks of the shooters, one could hear the swords ringing, and one could see how the helmets were chopped off, the dead fell on both sides." The Russian chronicler writes about the breakthrough of the Novgorod regiments: "The Germans, too, and a miracle made their way as a pig through the regiments." However, having stumbled upon the steep shore of the lake, the sedentary, armored knights could not develop their success. On the contrary, the knightly cavalry was crowded, as the rear ranks of the knights pushed the front ranks, which had nowhere to turn around for battle.
    Warriors who had special spears with hooks pulled knights off their horses; warriors armed with knives incapacitated horses, after which the knights became easy prey. “And this cross-section of evil is great and great by the German and miracle, and without a copy of breaking, and the sound from a cross-section, like a frozen lake moving around and not seeing ice, covered in blood”. The ice began to crack under the weight of heavily armed knights. Some knights managed to break through the encirclement, and they tried to escape by flight, but many of them drowned.

    Novgorodians chased the remains of a knightly army that had fled in disarray on the ice of Lake Peipsi, down to the opposite bank, seven miles. The pursuit of the remains of a defeated enemy outside the battlefield was a new phenomenon in the development of Russian military art. Novgorodians did not celebrate the victory "on the bone", as was customary before.
  22. samarin1969
    samarin1969 April 20 2018 20: 58
    +1
    Thanks everyone! He suspected that the comments would be more interesting than the article, but so much so! good drinks
  23. kalibr
    kalibr April 20 2018 21: 20
    +5
    Quote: Dzafdet
    However, having stumbled upon the steep shore of the lake, the sedentary, armored knights could not develop their success

    What armor are in 1242? Another dreamer was found?
    "The ice began to crack under the weight of heavily armed knights."
    In what annals did he begin to crack? On which page and in which year?
  24. kalibr
    kalibr April 20 2018 21: 26
    +4
    Quote: ee2100
    Of course, for official science, it is very inconvenient to bring together historians and all interested people and discuss from different perspectives all the "key" milestones in Russian history and make a generalized opinion (s) on them.

    All this was !!! And more than once! There was an exhaustive article by Kirpichnikov in the magazine Tseyhnauz ... How much can you spend time on ignoramuses?
  25. kalibr
    kalibr April 20 2018 22: 07
    +2
    Quote: Varyag77
    Incidentally, the battle of Rokov doesn’t advertise in a strange way, just as with Molodi. Although both of them are very significant and can be said to be decisive in their period of time.
    Reply Quote Complaint Varyag77

    Strange, I did not find any problems with finding information on it!
    1. Varyag77
      Varyag77 April 24 2018 00: 16
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Varyag77
      Incidentally, the battle of Rokov doesn’t advertise in a strange way, just as with Molodi. Although both of them are very significant and can be said to be decisive in their period of time.
      Reply Quote Complaint Varyag77

      Strange, I did not find any problems with finding information on it!

      So I'm not saying that there is no information. I say that these battles are not particularly advertised, nor are they popularized. Although their significance is higher than that of the popular Kulikovskaya and Ice Battle. I’m talking about this.
  26. kalibr
    kalibr April 20 2018 22: 10
    +4
    Quote: Oper
    Everything there is about a grand victory.

    And about the divine shelf on the air ...
  27. 1970mk
    1970mk April 20 2018 23: 51
    +3
    "The balance of power between the parties, according to sources, was approximately 15-17 thousand soldiers from Russia, and 10-12 thousand Livonian and Danish knights, as well as the militia of the Derpt bishopric." - what sources do not announce? By the way - "from the side of Russia" ... Novgorod called itself Rus in Russia? Give the source of your claims. At the same time Enough pictures of enchanting battle to lay out - they, to put it mildly, do not correspond at all to that time.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 21 2018 07: 40
      +3
      This is all taken from Razin’s book on martial arts. During his lifetime, he was asked a question about the source ... and now how many years have passed and there is no answer!
      1. 1970mk
        1970mk April 21 2018 07: 56
        +2
        Razin’s book is an artistic fiction to the author’s dream - a fantasy based on
  28. ver_
    ver_ April 21 2018 03: 37
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    Do not forget that in 1241 there was a battle at Legnica with the Mongols and the Teutonic knights participated in it and someone died, was wounded. Could not recover by April 1242 ... And there were order locks ... all 90. And every castle is a knight and castellan and ... that's all. And the loss at Legnica, someone was sick, someone did not go ...

    ... and how did the Mongols from the 20th century end up in the 13th century? .. Time machines have not yet been invented ...
  29. Catfish
    Catfish April 21 2018 03: 52
    +2
    Quote: Varyag77
    Another controversial milestone in Russian history. No place found. No artifacts found. It is believed that the chronicler "as they say got it wrong" and attributed the battle of Rakor to Nevsky. Here in the battle of Rakor there really was ice and it was very likely that someone had definitely fallen into the water there. And the battle itself was an order of magnitude larger. So, again. Not everything is so simple. Like the figure of Nevsky himself.


    Back in Soviet times, there, at Raven Stone, for several years there were several expeditions with diving equipment and metal detectors. Those. with all the gear and equipment available at that time. The soil was literally "dug by the nose," but they found nothing except two engines from the Yu-88. And according to some sources, there should be a lot of metal. Iron is not sugar, and no matter how rusty, let something remain. I do not want to say anything, but there was nothing or nothing, and if it was, then in another place. hi
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 21 2018 04: 08
      +1
      Quote: Sea Cat
      The soil was literally "dug by the nose," but they found nothing except two engines from the Yu-88.

      Your information is not correct. Found it. Judging by the reports of the Soviet integrated expedition of the 50-60s, it was indicated that during an underwater survey of the place around the remains of the Raven Stone, the remains of a fortified border post were found, most likely Novgorod
      Quote: Sea Cat
      I do not want to say anything, but there was nothing or nothing, and if it was, then in another place.

      Also found places of mass graves, although a certain distance from this place, but found. Then they could not be accurately dated, but according to some points found in the graves, it was suggested that they were somewhere of that time.
      1. alsoclean
        alsoclean April 21 2018 09: 15
        +1
        A reference would, with all due respect.
        Quote: svp67
        Then they could not be accurately dated, but according to some points found in the graves, it was suggested that they were somewhere of that time.

        It’s very foggy:
        - what are the moments?
        - how much is mass burial (10-20-100-1000)?
        - where did all this go (I mean the remains)?
        - were there weapons, armor, horse bones?
        1. svp67
          svp67 April 21 2018 12: 23
          +1
          Quote: alsoclean
          It’s very foggy:

          There are several dozen pages dedicated to this, the expedition was complex and worked for several years. Here are some snippets ...
          Four round mounds from 1 to 1.5 m high stand on the river. Uzmenke (the left tributary of Saba) in the village destroyed in the last war. Luzhniki.

          A group of eight round mounds is located on the right bank of the Saba between the villages of Glyadino and Dubrovitsy. The tract is called Fate. Mounds partially destroyed.

          2 km above the village. Gusli, on the right bank of the Saba, has a large burial ground. Residents call it the Zasab Grave and believe that he remained from the war with the Swedes (Fig. 3). The mound group is divided into two parts by a road leading to the river. Downstream the Saba, there are over twenty swampland, round vegetation barren, devoid of vegetation, from 0.5 to 1 m high. The barrows are located very close to one another.

          On the other side of the road are two long mounds. They are lined with boulders around the edges. The third mound is similar to the first two, but it looks like unfinished, or destroyed on one side. Of the first two mounds, one is partly torn from the southeast side. When clearing the excavation, it was found that the burial was massive, in which the corpses were laid in rows and heads to the east. Bones, a broken skull and a fragment of circular ceramics with a linear ornament were removed.

          On the same right bank, 2 km from the described group, in the tract Koloda, there are eight rather large round mounds located in a pine forest and partially at the edge of the forest. Most of them are in good condition, with pronounced ditches.

          Even higher, south of the village. Dubrovitsy, above the mouth of Syaberka, are three large mounds of medium size.

          During the survey of the watershed, a number of burial grounds were discovered.

          A kilometer north of the village. Verdugi, behind the fork in the roads to the villages of Syabero and Sabitsa, there are three round mounds. They carry traces of excavations. The mopping-up operation revealed a burial with the burning of a corpse.

          300 m north-east of the post village. Verduga there is a place called Graves. Here, before the war, they dug a hole for storing potatoes and found about twenty skulls lying in a row, and many bones.

          200 m from the village council on the road to Zatrubichye there is a lonely large mound. The peasants began to dig it, but, having found a layer of coal, they stopped digging, deciding that coal was burned here.

          In the village Zatrubichye, at the tractor base, at a place called Graves, there is a round mound about 1 m high. It is badly damaged. Near it are over 50 large boulders. Some of them are stagnant. Currently, any order in the arrangement of stones is no longer noticeable. Only two rings of boulders are weakly traced. Obviously, there were several reapers here. On one of the stones, on the side facing the east, a pattern is executed carved with shallow (4-5 mm) lines 10-12 mm wide.

          To the north-east of Zatrubichye there are two round mounds located almost nearby. Their height is about 2 m., Diameter 15 m.

          Local residents reported that to the west of Zatrubichye there are two more burial grounds with a large number of stones. One at a height near the lake. Non-residential near the village. Empty Good. Obviously, these are groups of reapers.

          ... Two kilometers from the village. Flocks there is a tract Mostishche. Local old people say that this place got its name because Alexander Nevsky ordered the construction of an oak bridge here and transferred his troops over it. Oak in these places now does not grow, but in the trench of the main canal there are many peaks of bog oak in depths of 2-3 m. This suggests that in antiquity p. Verduga was shipping. A low bridge would interfere with shipping. High - for just one crossing, the troops could hardly have been able to quickly deliver, The fact of building a bridge on the navigable river was so unusual that it was remembered for seven centuries and the place where it stood was called Mostische. The name Mostishche does not speak about a large bridge, but only about the place where it was located, like a conflagration, not talking about a big fire, but only about its place.

          On this tract, 400 m from the right bank of Verdugi (the former channel), along the road leading from the Pack to Borki, there are two large round mounds (Fig. 5). One is 5 m high, the other is about 7 m. Both are somewhat damaged by excavations. The mopping-up operation revealed a burial with the burning of a corpse. In the dumps of one excavation, a fragment of ceramics with an ornament was found. Local residents from vil. Packs told what they dug here in 1928–29. and in the eastern mound they found a “long” sword (possibly a two-handed one) and a “helmet with an arrow” - possibly an old Russian helmet. These things were stored in the school, but during the Patriotic War, the Nazis burned the school and these things disappeared.

          5 km from the pack, for the village. Outside, to the left of the highway, against the cemetery, is a lone mound. The mound is called Bogatyr, and according to legend, some hero is buried in it. The mound is oblong, in the plan it resembles the figure 8. Height is 3 m, width is 14-16 m, and length is up to 20 m.

          At 1 km northeast of the Pack beyond Lake. The Bottomless, or Bottomless, stands the Bogatyrek barrow, in shape resembling the Bogatyr, but smaller than it.
          1. alsoclean
            alsoclean April 21 2018 15: 48
            +2
            Super. But .. Is this with you, in paper form? And in any way?
            And then, if about the death toll - who was buried: Russian? Germans? everybody?
            If there is only one warrior in the Bogatyr barrow, is it probably a commander? And in other mounds? There are a lot of questions - the answers are not very ....
            1. dSK
              dSK April 21 2018 18: 35
              +1
              Quote: alsoclean
              Super. But..
              More often see the US “fighters”, read the English experts, “free” historians and develop Darwin’s theory - it’s possible reverse evolution the tail has not grown yet?
              1. alsoclean
                alsoclean April 22 2018 01: 01
                +2
                What I'm watching is not your concern. Get on. I’m talking to a specialist and I want to know. In this tone, you can only conduct a conversation in the format "Yuyu-Sam Yuyuyu." This does not appeal to me. And further. Rudeness - to strangers - is not good.
            2. svp67
              svp67 April 22 2018 11: 32
              +1
              Quote: alsoclean
              But .. Is this with you, in paper form?

              Yeah. Publishing House "Science" Moscow Leningrad. 1966, "The Battle of the Ice 1242."
              1. alsoclean
                alsoclean April 22 2018 14: 32
                +1
                Thank you - I will look - I'm interested
            3. svp67
              svp67 April 22 2018 11: 45
              +1
              Quote: alsoclean
              If there is only one warrior in the Bogatyr barrow, is it probably a commander?

              Or a very noble and famous warrior. Domash may well ... By the way, the expedition established that it was precisely at that time that fortified towns, such as Cossack villages, were built along the banks of rivers and lakes in the border areas. So, at the time of the Battle of the Ice there was a rather densely populated area. And then it becomes clear why Alexander decided to give a fight there.
              At that point, the roads were divided, one went to Pskov, the second towards Novgorod, that is, in response to the raid, the “Crusaders” could strike back immediately where they were not expected and almost immediately. And the point fortified by us, near Voronny stone, not only did one of the flanks of Alexander’s troops cover, but in case of failure, it also gave a certain chance of salvation
              1. alsoclean
                alsoclean April 22 2018 14: 40
                +2
                Yes of course. It could have been so.
                By the way, according to Klim Zhukov: A widespread lack of iron in these parts forced the surrounding residents to simply rob mounds. Indeed, for a simple peasant some kind of sword is a dozen good nails. What is wealth in itself .....
          2. ee2100
            ee2100 April 21 2018 20: 29
            +2
            .If you are sure of the available data on mass graves, contact the appropriate historical and archaeological authorities and let them excavate and date the remains. If these are really the remains of the soldiers who died in 1242, Hurray! So the battlefield will be determined. And so there really are many questions about the place of battle.
  30. kalibr
    kalibr April 21 2018 07: 44
    +5
    Quote: Nehist
    an episode in the north-west was considered an ordinary skirmish which was a constant in the Principality of Galicia.

    I agree.
  31. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet April 21 2018 08: 59
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Dzafdet
    However, having stumbled upon the steep shore of the lake, the sedentary, armored knights could not develop their success

    What armor are in 1242? Another dreamer was found?
    "The ice began to crack under the weight of heavily armed knights."
    In what annals did he begin to crack? On which page and in which year?

    We look at the picture




    Plus the weight of a person. A total of 6 Germans - 100-120 kg, ours - 90-100 kg. Plus the mass of a horse ... Could easily crack ice under the weight of 20-25 thousand people and horses ..
    Put on yourself 25 kg of iron and wave your sword for about two hours, and I'll look at you ... laughing tongue wassat
    1. alsoclean
      alsoclean April 21 2018 15: 50
      +2
      Quote: Dzafdet
      crackle under the weight of 20-25 thousand people and horses ..

      My dear, are you serious? Where so much?
  32. Operator
    Operator April 21 2018 10: 40
    0
    Quote: Kotischa
    No wonder Konstantin Bogryanorodny called them - Germans

    Just so lush and called whom there "Germans" - purely specifically in Russian laughing

    Damn, if you speak Russian at the level of Opportunistic, then go write to your Israeli resource.
  33. Operator
    Operator April 21 2018 12: 31
    0
    Quote: Nehist
    how many of these communities were in Estonia history is silent

    Then tryndet fig about the overestimated number of Chukhons in the Battle of the Ice?
  34. Operator
    Operator April 21 2018 14: 06
    0
    Quote: Gopnik
    "Some Moscow princes were burial mounds ... their wives were from the Genghis family, "- Professor HSE Dr. I.N.Danilevsky (s)

    Most likely, the professor had in mind the "gungan" - intelligent amphibians from the planet Naboo laughing

  35. Honorary Communications Officer
    Honorary Communications Officer April 22 2018 09: 31
    +2
    The article is strong in describing the military-political situation, but frankly weak in describing military operations, the tactics of the parties (perhaps this was not the goal). It depresses the use of such already debunked myths about building a "pig", about 15-17 thousand .... the author does not dig deep ! So the article is not historical?
  36. Catfish
    Catfish April 23 2018 00: 29
    +2
    Quote: alsoclean
    Thank you - I will look - I'm interested


    Good night Alexey.
    If you are seriously interested in these issues, then I would take the liberty of advising you to be more careful about publications in our press, especially in the Soviet one. Soviet archeology is a rather closed world, with its secret currents and rivalry cleaner than at Mosfilm. I am not an archaeologist, but I had to work with several archaeological expeditions. Provided underwater component, so to speak. I wasn’t under the Raven Stone, I’ve done enough work on the Black Sea, and then, reading articles in our magazines signed with the names I know, I just wondered where it comes from.
    So be careful and don’t take everything for granted. Good luck hi
    1. alsoclean
      alsoclean April 24 2018 20: 30
      +1
      Thank you For advice and kind words. I will consider.
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 April 25 2018 17: 55
        +1
        I have a relative, in the 60-70 years of the last century, participated in several underwater expeditions, in the area of ​​Raven Stone. The result is zero. How many of these "spontaneous" expeditions - no one knows. In early April, the ice on the lake is not very durable, and it is not for nothing that this lake is called Teply. And given that the climate in the mid-13th century was milder, not a single person in their right mind would go to “fight” there. The annals say that after the "liberation" of Izborsk, Alexander led the squad in the direction of Tartu. And slightly “having received” from the knights his forward detachment leaves for the location of the main forces. According to the annals, in the area of ​​Raven Stone. If you take from Tartu, it is about 60 km in a straight line. None of the knights will chase a small Novgorod squad for at least two days. It was most real of all. Alexander sent an advanced detachment to the Tartu region, quite significant, so that the knights would have the impression that these are the main forces of the Russians. Approaching Tartu and surrounding the fortress, they created the appearance of a siege. The knights, received reinforcements from Viljandi (Fellina), turned the Russian troops into "flight". In pursuit, the knights fell into the trap arranged by Alexander. Most likely, this is somewhere near the outskirts of today's Tartu and most likely a trap was set up on the right bank of the Emajõgi. Which is very important, but no one pays attention - the defending side chooses the place of battle. The Russians seemed to be advancing, but in the end they determined the place of the battle. This is confirmed by chronicles on both sides. Actually, when the knights crossed (crossed) across the river, they were trapped. Most likely, Alexander also envisioned an “ambush regiment,” which blocked the possibility of a retreat, but part of the knight’s army fled, and you can only run to the rear — this is part of them that drowned. This battle is described in the 1st Novgorod annals after more than 100 years from the time when it happened. Then the climate has changed a lot and there are no witnesses left. And the image must be created. So they came up with a beautiful version about the battle on Lake Peipsi. So to speak - literary processing. If my version is real, then Alexander Yaroslavovich appears before us as a brave and skillful military commander, an excellent tactician and military strategist.
        1. alsoclean
          alsoclean April 25 2018 23: 22
          +1
          It may very well be. True, the fortress was called Dorpat or Dörpt, well, or in our opinion Derpt. But in general, we are talking about the number of fighters on both sides. So here are not thousands, but most likely hundreds. Which in general does not detract from the skill of Alexander and the courage of his soldiers.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 April 26 2018 08: 35
            0
            Dorpat - so Dorpat. The main place is one. Disagreement is caused both by the place of battle and by the numbers on both sides. And yet, not unimportant - did Alexander stop the expansion of the West to the east? Hence the significance of this clash for history. No one is considering the purpose of the company. Many, like official history, believe that Alexander liberated Pskov and Izborsk, and a campaign on the lands of the Teutonic Order is revenge for the capture of Pskov. My opinion is the reason for Alexander’s military-political campaign. The Russians, together, raided the lands of the Order. Novgorodians in this event acted as the main force. For this, according to the concepts, they should have gotten an “answer” The knights couldn’t reach Novgorod, Pskov interferes. Therefore, you first need to deal with Pskov, and then go to Novgorod. Usually, the case ended with the siege of Pskov and the enormous human losses of the Pskov people. Not always Novgorod fully rescued the allies. The Pskov rulers got tired of it, and so they concluded a treaty with the Teutonic Knights on neutrality. The Novgorodians themselves, without Pskov, did not dare to raid. there was a real threat, after the raid, to receive a siege of the city from the side of the order. The city authorities forbade the squad. It was with his “liberation” campaign that Alexander deprived Pskov of neutrality, and showed the Teutons who was the main force in the region. Personally, I believe that from the Russian side in the battle of 1242 there were no more than 300 fighters, and from the Teutonic side no more than 200
  37. Seal
    Seal April 28 2018 17: 33
    0
    Quote: Curious
    A similar expression was used as winged as early as Ancient Rome: "He who fights with the sword, dies from the sword" (Quigladioferit, gladio pent).

    Is this something real confirmed?