In SKR named a new version of the cause of the fire in the mall "Winter Cherry"

There is a new version of the causes of fire in the shopping and entertainment complex "Winter Cherry" in Kemerovo. We will remind that earlier in the Ministry of Emergency Situations declared an arson in the "dry pool" as the main version of the cause of the tragedy. The Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation has other interim conclusions.

After a trip to Kemerovo by the head of the TFR, Alexander Bastrykin, a video was published on the official website of the department, which stated that the investigators had found high-voltage wires passing directly above the children's playroom.

As noted in the TFR, these wires, in violation of all electrical and fire safety standards, in transit went through the trampoline hall. Alexander Bastrykin was told that, presumably, a short circuit in this electrical circuit could lead to the appearance of sparks above the reservoir for the foam cubes of the “dry pool”. This, according to the investigation, led to a fire.

It is also added that the cause of death of the majority of the dead was carbon monoxide poisoning. The main number of victims of the tragedy was found at the very door of the cinema hall, which was closed so that the fire did not penetrate inside. In this case, the TFR noted that the other door of the cinema was not closed. Probably, people could no longer leave the hall through it, since by that moment a fire was raging in the corridor.

From the movie TFR:

According to one of the versions, adults and children who watched the cartoon in this cinema hall shut up all the gaps from the smoke and waited for them to be rescued. That is what all instructions are recommended to do. But it was the waiters of the rescuers that turned out to be death for them.

Recall that on the eve of the MASH Telegram channel, data from CCTV cameras was published, which showed that the first fire brigade arrived at the burning shopping mall 15 minutes after the first call to the rescue service, and evacuation of people from the roof of the building began only 1,5 hours later .

Video from the UK IC:

Comments

[Observer2014]

According to one of the versions, adults and children who watched the cartoon in this cinema hall shut up all the gaps from the smoke and waited for them to be rescued. That is what all instructions are recommended to do. But it was the waiters of the rescuers that turned out to be death for them.

I have no words.

investigators found high-voltage wires passing directly above the children's playroom.

It's like. Without isolation, how were the power lines.? It’s just for general development. Or there were cables in the insulating winding naturally there. I was without any sarcasm. If cables passed over the game room. By definition, they can only be in trays. And in general, the building was rebuilt. There could be any dismantled places anywhere wires, cables, pipes. Anything. But absolutely not the fact that they are connected.

[zivXP]

So when they laid these same wires and did not expect that there would be a game room. In general, they did not expect anything.

[Nicholas C.]

Quote: Observer2014

Just for general development. Or there were cables in the insulating winding, of course they were. I was without any sarcasm. If cables passed over the game room. By definition, they can only be in trays.

A joint venture from spring 2017 made fire-resistant GOST on cable for designers and installers mandatory. Those. in a building with a large stay of people, only strictly defined brands of cables can be laid. If the laying is carried out according to the PUE, then there is simply nothing to shorten in it. If the power engineer is professional, then the cable was purchased from the correct manufacturer, checked at acceptance and meets the declared characteristics, correctly installed (i.e. it will not serve the warranty period, but the prescribed 25-30 years (earlier the service life was longer)).
This activity was strictly regulated. But after the trends, they say, there is no need to torment the business with inspections, the need for professionals has disappeared. More precisely, it became a compromise between the conscience and greed of the owners. Now “power engineers” began to take pasties from Ukrainian farms without any education at all (although in Ukraine education is such that it’s the same as without). I would see if anyone had intent on a terrorist attack. Responsible for the fire and related weakness in the "winter cherry" - vocational school with a specialty cook. This is a constant game of Russian roulette - they waited and fired.

[your1970]

there it is incomprehensible at all "high-voltage" - cables or wires?

[Nicholas C.]

Investigators (or zhurnalyugi), apparently, on the subject know only the song "the old woman did not suffer for a long time in high-voltage wires."
Where are the results of the inspection of Rostekhnadzor? This is their competence.
In that place, there can be no high-voltage cables (voltage above 1000V). Higher voltage on the other side of the TP (RP).

[svd-xnumx]

In that place, there can be no high-voltage cables (voltage above 1000V). Higher voltage on the other side of the TP (RP).

If a 6kV cable went to the power supply through the former factory, then after the supposed short circuit that caused the fire, the protection should disconnect this feeder and the lights go out in the shopping center (even a priori short on the power cable would turn off the 6kV / 0.4kV transformer). in the fire video you can see that the voltage was even when the smoke was already tightened. I don’t think there were two mutually redundant power supplies, and even from different feeders.

[karish]

what the investigators found high voltage wirespassing directly above the children's playroom.

It sounds scary of course.
But an ordinary cable (3 phase) - with a voltage of 380V - this is it.
In any room (for the same lighting) are cables under this voltage.
Further, what is the definition of --WIRES - what is this?
bare?
litter on a photo ordinary cables brought to an external laying.

Quote: Observer2014

Then by definition they can only be in trays

and if not in the tray? Does this change much?
In general, according to the rules of fire supervision (EMNIP) - insulation quality check - annual inspection.

[_Sergei_]

karish (Alexander)
In general, according to the rules of fire supervision (EMNIP) - insulation quality check - annual inspection.

Depending on the class of the premises, from one to three years. When I worked, I spent annually, just not to forget.

[karish]

Quote: _Sergey_

Depending on the class of the premises, from one to three years.

Perhaps it was a long time ago (in the USSR)
It was held annually.
Where I work now - the same every year (but served by staff) - high-voltage substations.

[Dym71]

Quote: karish

But an ordinary cable (3 phase) - with a voltage of 380V - this is it.

With the exception of the option for the shopping center to have an integrated substation (which is unlikely)

Quote: karish

Further, what is the definition of --WIRES - what is this?

For example, self-supporting insulated wire (self-supporting insulated wire) is strictly forbidden for laying indoors.

Quote: karish

and if not in the tray? Does this change much?

when suspended, tensile stress is added from the dead weight of the cable

[Spook]

And in general, the building was rebuilt. Any wires, cables, pipes could have remained uninstalled anywhere. Anything. But absolutely not the fact that they are connected.

Connected cables behave differently in a fire; investigators easily detect this - a connected cable gives a short circuit in the course of a fire

[Shahno]

In the sense? Do you have electrical equipment on highways in contact with the external environment?

[Ragoz]

Judging by the video in the article in the investigative committee, everything is completely "GENIUS", and those who are not members of it are Fools

[zivXP]

It is not possible to be 100% safe from fire-closures, although you need to strive for this. But you can create conditions for safe evacuation. But after all, this requires so much money, time that they count on compliance with the PUE and other things. But there is a human factor, but it is not taken into account. If the building had been planned, like in the Soviet times, cinemas were developed, with the exit directly to the street after the show, then it would be possible to talk about security.

[antivirus]

approx in the mid-00s went into a series of cables with non-combustible insulation

[Shahno]

Well, why, it’s not possible, at 97 percent .. These are crowded areas, potentially dangerous objects .. Put the monitor and everything, as in the operating room ... Just kidding. You can simply design the scheme correctly and over areas with pov. danger and near, you never get to the short ... Regular monitoring of insulation resistance also helps

[Mountain shooter]

In short, it was necessary to save, and to save the children. But do not wait for what is unknown. Now everyone will be smart ... It smelled of smoke - scrub, capturing everyone along the way ... Rescuers may not have time ...

[Senior manager]

There is no reference to witnesses in the article; therefore, the SC has no such data either. The spark or arc effect on the foam should be long enough, and there were a lot of people and no one noticed. Either the author or the ICs say not all or do not accurately provide information, this borders on misleading and allows foes to compose horror films and sow doubts about the competence of the IC. Or an article is a provocation.

[mik0588]

We are still paying for the 90s and unfortunately we will still. I explain, this building was not designed and built for those needs for which it was used! This is the former productionbankrupt and sold out and then adapted for an "honest" withdrawal of money .............

[geniy]

But this is a hoax. The fact is that after the change of ownership, a new building was added to the old factory building. So - and cinema halls and rooms for games only in the new building, where the fire actually broke out. So everything there had to be done according to the new rules.

[Vard]

That is, a teenager of gypsy nationality is not at work ... and witnesses are lying ...

[Stas157]

Recall that on the eve of the MASH Telegram channel, data from CCTV cameras was published, which showed that the first fire brigade arrived at the burning shopping mall 15 minutes after the first call to the rescue service, and evacuation of people from the roof of the building began only 1,5 hours later .

And the children who barricaded themselves and were waiting in the same cinema were not evacuated at all. Although both children and adults called their relatives from there, a man called the Ministry of Emergencies. Then the people on the street begged the first firemen to bring the children out ... Having the order, the firemen could do this (try). Surely they had gas masks and special suits.
It seems to me that with the departure of Shoigu, changes in the Ministry of Emergencies did not happen in the best way.

[antivirus]

It seems to me, with the departure of Shoigu, changes in the Ministry of Emergencies did not happen in the best way
according to the logic of ordinary people ::: they thought that the time in the “bad” shopping center was to run out and check on everything. hoped for "the salvation of drowning-the work of the hands of the drowned"
they - turn out when reporting, and not save at any cost, in an abbreviated composition ..
sit on two motorcycles - not on two stools

[Cympak]

Most likely, the TFR is doing its best to confirm the words "main" that the wiring is to blame. And the "main" can’t be wrong ....
Can they even imagine a picture of their version? Fireworks sparks and smoke from the ceiling, but people below do not notice it? Witnesses say, like, about something else

[Shahno]

You just don’t have a very good idea of ​​how a short-circuit and a hotbed of flame develops as a result of this. When you notice it will be too late ... Believe me, no sabotage is needed anymore, if you see smoke, immediately call the guys ... And quickly run to the street., Sports skills will come in handy.

[Archivist Vasya]

A short circuit is certainly a more plausible version than an arson in front of everyone ... But everything has already happened and it remains only to check the rest of the shopping centers.

[kirgiz58]

Quote: Archivist Vasya

Short circuit is certainly a more plausible version than arson in front of everyone ...

The Perekrestok store in a shopping center (round-the-clock), ATMs at the check-out points, I come in the morning to transfer money - the ATM at Alfa Bank was burnt and hacked, no one from the security of the hacking process saw it. And you say arson in front of everyone is not possible. Everything is possible, but is there a desire for TFR to convey to us the truth about the fire.

[Archivist Vasya]

Well, a burned-out ATM and security that is not up to date is really strange, are they really in proportion with the arsonists ... The cameras there were interesting

[antivirus]

execute? can not? have mercy
and a bullshit with gasoline? - set fire to the Molotov Cocktail with a cord (???), threw it into cubes and left.
see how someone jumped - jumped
BUT BUT BUT -
-RECOGNIZE THE “GYPSIES ARE BURNED” -GET THE GENOCIDE OF DRUG DRUGS AND THE GYPSANS AND GO INTO HISTORY :::: "WITH IT, THE GYPSIES WAS EXCLUDED FROM RUSSIA AS JEWS FROM GERMANY IN 30 GG 20 CENTURY"
ordinary Gypsies will not regret and nobody will be able to save, and the Americans will gladly accept all Gypsies and become "the second Hindustan-the homeland of the Aryans"

[igorek]

And how many high-voltage wires? Maybe a big section? There was production, there was energy-intensive equipment. This is confirmation that even at least some project was not there, and if it was, it was not completed. otherwise, old trays or channels with cable would be removed. I am sure that the investigation will be carried out perfectly from a technical point of view. And not in order to "shoot", but in order to solve system problems in the system. The most important conclusion from this tragedy. IF YOU DO NOT SHOCK BUSINESS FOR SECURITY, then BUSINESS SHOULD ALL ALL OF US.

[Dezinto]

IF YOU DO NOT SHOCK BUSINESS FOR SECURITY, BUSINESS SHOULD ALL ALL OF US

Absolutely right! They should be all polls and tail and mane ...! and dried up!
It’s easy to cut loot - it’s easy to smear everyone with a hefty shopping center - it’s easy to count the proceeds - it’s also easy for them. But what about the safety of people !? Something somehow in the bastard of our entrepreneurs ...... a bunch of stickers, a couple of fire extinguishers, well, taam ... like emergency exits, somewhere out there ... behind bars in the basement ...
... and when a catastrophe occurs, they have testicles in their bodies, and the plane to India .....

[antivirus]

IF YOU DO NOT SHOCK BUSINESS FOR SECURITY, then BUSINESS SHOULD ALL ALL OF US.

then business is nightmare for us all .. security

[Heterocapsa]

I work in Kip. I serve the safety automation of gas facilities. I work in the emergency team, I’ve seen enough of all. Cables burn only in the way. Wiring itself is a very scary thing if it starts to burn, it burns out instantly. I immediately suggested that there were high-voltage wires in the winter cherry under the pool but there was a hope that they could not think of such insanity. All the same, the reason why this is so occurred? in my opinion, it’s not professional planning. The cable doesn’t light up like that. If a short circuit occurs, the protection or fuse (fuse) or protective device must trip. It means that there was no protection or the cables were stupidly heated from excessive current flow. Not right They calculated the maximum allowable current through the cable. As it happens, people initially lay the wiring in the apartment, taking into account only the washer and telly, but in reality they switch on the telly and the air conditioner and the microwave, as a result, the wiring warms up and then the insulation starts to burn. apparently, after laying the track with cables, they scored on this scheme and placed the amusement rides just to seal as much as possible on the floor and what they didn’t even bother under. Here, in this cherry, it’s all wrong. And the wiring, and all the fuel material. Only the facade is made of tiles, and the security is null and void, and the fire button is turned off, and the building permit is It was issued retroactively, and they didn’t comply, it’s just tough guys. Such cables if they start to burn ... especially under the floor you extinguish them, you put out a fire extinguisher there and don’t blow out the main switch, I doubt that there was emergency lighting which should turn on after turning off the main power center.

[karish]

Quote: Heterocapsa

.Wiring itself is a very scary thing if it starts to burn, it burns out instantly

well, not instantly \

Quote: Heterocapsa

I immediately suggested that in the winter cherry it was under the pool that there were high-voltage wires, but there was a hope that they could not think of such senility.

under the pool 7
What is it like ? As I understand it under the ceiling, but to the floor below.
What is the problem at all?

Quote: Heterocapsa

The cable doesn’t light up just like that.

not just like that, but it happens to light up - with a decrease in the quality of insulation.
But this inspection is usually performed by maintenance personnel 2 times a year. and fire supervision once a year.

[Heterocapsa]

so the decrease in isolation from that can become worthless if it does not get warm for a long time. Service checks were carried out by the staff. I am sure so ... hello ... is everything normal? yes .... well, sign ... bye.
I wrote the wiring instantly burns out. Of course I exaggerate a little. But once on the “loaf” we drove so I turned on the heating stove ... and in a minute it didn’t fill the car with thick smoke through which nothing could be seen. insulation burns quickly.
In fact, nothing changes. The cherry was crammed with combustible materials that ignited from the wiring. And in this direction they will dig further.

[cosmonaut]

karish
well not instantly
if it’s really high-voltage, then it can run instantly. cables explode like a cannon. it’s not clear from the article what high-voltage means. Actually, over 1050 volts are considered to be high voltage. At least that was when I worked

[Uncle lee]

And who personally saw the KZ in 380? This is an explosion and flash, such that after about five minutes you see nothing. And in the shopping center, what, no one heard or saw? Invalid version.

[Heterocapsa]

Yes, there is a noise in the shopping center. There, they also don’t shout machines and merry-go-rounds but a flash .... holes in the box. A box under the ceiling. Sound .. maybe there was someone who heard something like that. They probably still want to put Responsible for resolving the “improper” installation of electricians. As an option.

[igorek]

Quote: Heterocapsa

It's just a scattering of insanity.

I am amazed too. The rhetorical question, why has no one been struck before?

[igorek]

Quote: Heterocapsa

In fact, nothing changes. The cherry was crammed with combustible materials that ignited from the wiring. And in this direction they will dig further.

One “smart” on TV complained that there are no specialists in the Ministry of Emergencies (or there are few of them, I don’t remember exactly) who are versed in the combustibility of heat and sound insulating materials. The same must be omitted so ... I.e. higher education institutions of the Ministry of Emergencies is about nothing. Yes, these guys from 10 meters about the combustibility of any material will tell you everything. Personally met. And then he peeled off the walls and ceiling from allegedly "unsupported burning." Intelligent guys, they check in good faith, they advise, if they deserve it, they will strain it with a fine. I have not met with bribe takers. Because the fire worked. Now go to any store, shopping center, office, look at the ceiling and it’s immediately clear where which APS, alert and APS are. A red or orange cable is already reassuring, and even if the sensor “blinks” it’s very relaxed. No need to worry. And for the disabled alarm in such responsible organizations, you immediately run into "looking for work". I am an optimist and I hope that the system will fix system errors.

[cedar]

How not to twist, but it's time to end all this with the excessively protracted NEP.
President Putin has extraordinary powers!

[antivirus]

timeless and not tied to the topic
GDP COULD BE COMPLETED, AFTER 20 YEARS AFTER DEFAULT 98G, UNION OF SEMI-DILUTED RUSSIA.
TULEYEV LAST FROM A ROW OF MEANS-SHAIMIYEV-AYATSK-RAHIMOV.
INDEPENDENT REGIONAL "OWNERS OF LIFE" NO MORE. AND REGIONAL POLITICIANS - ALSO ENDED.
THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1. IVS AND A BIG TERROR AND 2. EBN-GDP WITHOUT TERROR - evolution instead of revolution, Chubais spoke about this about 15-18 years ago (he was already in RAO UES)

[Shahno]

I am still shocked by Russian electricians and power engineers. We have a high-voltage cable exactly higher than 1000, although in Russia everything is possible, but don’t twist the 3 phases at the end user, this is not a high voltage. There is no licensing specialty, tight control by the energy. no company, state there is no control over the observance of guests .. Maybe in Hevrat Hashmal an internship is necessary .. Everything related to lives, all specialties of this kind should be strictly licensed, controlled and fines should be substantial. No cash, only electronic control over the reporting and finances of licensed entrepreneurs.

[Shahno]

We also have enough problems ... And not with the aim of humiliating someone, I feel sorry for people. Waited for some time of the officers. versions. I read the article and comments ... I understood one thing, with this approach section ....., it is surprising that even so ...

[_Sergei_]

Everywhere so high voltage from 1000V. It’s just that over the past 10 years, they have done energy supervision checks every 5 years, such as to prevent business from being badly damaged. The audit takes place together with the prosecutor's office and the prosecutor’s office then checks the implementation of the comments. For two months, the company or owner receives a warning from the prosecutor. You can check complaints. Enough 5 complaints from an individual and or one collective with at least 5 signatures. Since the business knows that it is checked every 5 years, it does not test equipment every year. For energy supervision, this is sadness, the extra fat is gone. And now the prosecutor’s office also controls them.

[igorek]

Quote: Shahno

I am still shocked by Russian electricians and power engineers

Pavel, I say again, there is a system, there are norms, rules, restrictions, (fire safety, electrical safety, etc., but at least there is also a regime on the beach). The question is again and again why this seemingly viable, effective, academically verified system is neither hell nor where it works or is sabotaged or just ... Think it yourself. Therefore, always the field we figure out who is to blame and do something.

[mp-133]

I had a short circuit in the assembly of 0.4 kV from a spill of water. So the roar was such that I thought that the electric motor running nearby was 1500 kW (1.5 MW).

[Heterocapsa]

starting at 2:40 to watch.

[Shahno]

Short circuit current real 600-800 A.

[Shahno]

Actually, if we talk about the fire ... The circuit breakers do not burn from the fire. And from the maximum current of the order of 700 A. In a standard situation, of course, the switch does not allow 500A.

[_Sergei_]

Buildings built after 2001 or modernized must have an RCD. Only the leak will go, the RCD will already work. In the “winter cherry” it’s probably not at all that there was no customized protection, but there is no protection at all. In my house, for each outgoing line, in addition to automatic machines, there is an RCD.

[senima56]

How is SK afraid of the arson version! Well, by any means get away from her! And the same will have to look for arsonists! And here is a “short circuit” (“pilot error”, “equipment malfunction”, “domestic gas explosion”) and that’s all!

[Shahno]

And I will tell you why. Arson, prepared action. But today there are no fires around the perimeter. There is only local ... It is not reasonable, of course, if not ... id ..- this arsonist.
And then, for some reason, it seems to me that it is necessary to tie up with an imitation of terrorism ..

[Lynx33]

And what, the arson of the playground can not lead to a short circuit in the wires above it? This debate is akin to what came forward: a chicken or an egg. Try, prove to me that if you set fire to a high-voltage cable, it will not short-circuit and will not flare up already from a short circuit. What do you electricians demented think everyone else? To arrange a large-scale short circuit, a small source of fire at the cable is enough and the fire investigators will not find anything later, as usual, they will put everything on an electrician.

[cedar]

Quote: Shahno

And I will tell you why. Arson, prepared action. But today there are no fires around the perimeter. There is only local ... It is not reasonable, of course, if not ... id ..- this arsonist.
And then, for some reason, it seems to me that it is necessary to tie up with an imitation of terrorism ..

First of all, in the Middle East ...
And for this, President Putin has extraordinary powers!

[Shahno]

Well, there is also Netanyahu and Erdogan ... So in Russia you can have more powers. And here we have .. Teeth are not the same ... In any case, the dictate will not work. And no one here will take your president for the chief, even Prince Salman ... Want on an equal footing, welcome ...

[Nikolay Fedorov]

Quote: from article

From the movie TFR:
According to one of the versions, adults and children who watched the cartoon in this cinema hall shut up all the gaps from the smoke and waited for them to be rescued. That is what all instructions are recommended to do. But it was the waiters of the rescuers that turned out to be death for them.

... ... ... (9-story mat) I hope now these "instructions" from the fucking theorists will be replaced?

[sib.ataman]

Now you can call a bunch of versions and the guilty ones, the problem is not in them, but in the existing vicious system of irresponsibility and permissiveness of circles close to those in power and others like them! You will no longer help the dead by punishing one or another switchman! But to save the living from future Winter cherries, Lame horses, etc., you can only change the system. But on this issue, something is not heard that someone would work in the sweat of their faces!
And as far as I remember, it was against this that they tried to fight during perestroika time, in the 91st, 93rd! The EBN opposed this, for which he was supported at the beginning (Boris, fight! Remember?). But in the end, having collapsed the whole country, they did not get rid of the main infection! On the contrary: saved and increased!

[_Sergei_]

And here is the power. Specific people answer. Some control, while others serve.

[Stas1973]

This is some kind of sur.
The security guard, who stepped in for a day, testifies that the OPS did not work normally - but he is attracted to all the media and from Bastirkin that the security guard did not fulfill his duties.
Initially, it was clear from witnesses that the child had set fire with the help of a lighter. This was reported by the EVIDENTS of the event.
, it's a lie, yeah, power cables, short circuit and stuff - it’s already freezing. Again, nothing to do with it, let's find a switchman, in this case a guard?

[andrej-shironov]

Good version! And in one of his programs, Prokopenko finally considers the main version: inability to build shopping centers in modern Russia. Lord How much to write and suggest: everything proposed in the form of versions is just a pathetic attempt to whitewash the existing paradigm of Russia's economic development. That is, liberal capitalism in its most perverse form! Everything else is just a consequence!

[SEER]

Quote: andrej-shironov

Good version! And in one of his programs, Prokopenko finally considers the main version: inability to build shopping centers in modern Russia. Lord How much to write and suggest: everything proposed in the form of versions is just a pathetic attempt to whitewash the existing paradigm of Russia's economic development. That is, liberal capitalism in its most perverse form! Everything else is just a consequence!

again did not drink a pill, sick? you say everything with slogans.

[a housewife]

he has a training manual at hand

[Jerk]

The TFR published a video - it is there that KZ and sparks fly into this pool. Only the terminology must be observed - no power lines were there and could not be.
Most likely breakdown or melting from overheating, for example with a light bulb, ordinary wiring. What is also a violation of SNiP in itself, by the way

[Lynx33]

It was not necessary to shoot Tuleev, but Puchkova ruined Shoigu's well-established service. I have already seen the entertainment centers closed by inspection bodies, but I don’t see the most important thing - the EMERCOM exercises in each city to respond to such cases.