Media: the modernized "Shell" will receive hypersonic missiles

The range of the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile and cannon complex can be increased to 60 km due to the use of hypersonic missiles, Interfax reported, citing a source in the military-industrial complex.

At the moment, work is underway to create hypersonic missiles for the Pantsir. It is planned to bring the range to 50-60 kilometers

- Said the source agency.

According to the stated data, at the moment the range of the non-modernized complex is about 20 km.

From 2018, an upgraded version of the complex, Pantsir-SM, will begin to arrive in the troops. Thanks to the new aiming locator, the missile detection and guidance range is 40 km.

The Pantsir-С1 ZRPK was developed by Shipunov Instrument Design Bureau of Tula (included in the holding of NPO High-Precision Complexes of the Rostec State Corporation). The complex is capable of striking all modern and prospective means of air attack at ranges up to 20 km at altitudes up to 15 km. Speed 57EX6 - 1300 meters per second anti-aircraft missile. The ZRPK can simultaneously work on four targets, be used to destroy not only air, but also land and sea targets, manpower, and is capable of firing in motion and from a place, as well as from short stops. approx.

Comments

[210ox]

This is all good. And it would be even better if there was also a means to combat the swarm of drones.

[siberalt]

For 50-60 km. before the hypersound near the earth does not accelerate. And nothing winged so far flies.

[figwam]

siberalt

Many modern anti-aircraft missiles are hypersonic.

[siberalt]

And who would argue? Calculate the initial mass of the projectile with the moment of acceleration, even to achieve a speed of 5 max and how much time it will take on a site of 50 km. Well, how many tons of heptyl is needed for an ordinary shell shell?

[shinobi]

Shell rockets are solid fuel.

[figwam]

Quote: siberalt

And who would argue? Calculate the initial mass of the projectile with the moment of acceleration, even to achieve a speed of 5 max and how much time it will take on a site of 50 km. Well, how many tons of heptyl is needed for an ordinary shell shell?

A modern tank sub-caliber projectile, when exiting the barrel, has hypersonic speed, which it receives in a fraction of a second.

[sabakina]

sibiralt, you are the developer of "Shell"?

[myrzilka]

Quote: sabakina

Are you a Shell developer?

He is his critic)))))

[askme]

An ordinary Shell shell rocket accelerates to maximum speed in 1,5 seconds. Before hypersound, the seconds will accelerate in 3-4. The main thing here is the shape of the Shell armor. An arrow has an ideal form for hypersound. Aerodynamic drag is minimal, aerobraking is very small.

[voyaka uh]

Only now the GOS on such a rocket is not. She only goes on the radar of her starting car. Cut off the radar interference - miss. And her engine is like that of a SAM. Fuel burned out - further by inertia. Missiles are cheap, fast, but very primitive in design and aiming.

[askme]

Than to fantasize, better study what the Shell is. For example, the fact that the Shell rocket is controlled via the IR channel and that by any interference you will not cut off the rocket from the launcher. The chopper did not grow. The same with the rest of your characteristics. You yourself are primitive to disgrace. GOS and this rocket is not needed. Moreover, in Syria even Grad missiles are intercepted by them, which is a very difficult target for this level of complexes. The strength of the entire complex lies in the overall power of the system and the cheapness of one shot, as well as in the speed of flight of the rocket. Very soon, at each such launcher there will be up to 48 new small-sized missiles for mass shooting at close range. The best complex in terms of price per shot / total power.

[voyaka uh]

"The strength of the whole complex in the overall power of the system and the cheapness of a single shot, as well as in the speed of the missile" ////

That is what I wrote: the rocket is fast and cheap.
Low cost is ensured by the simplicity of its design. Lack of GNS and
additional engine for terminal jerk.

[askme]

Yes, here people can read. Everyone read what nonsense you wrote.

[just exp]

in general, he is right, for the rocket has radio command guidance.
he has pros and cons.
and by the way, which is very important, the shell missiles are really much cheaper than ordinary ones.
Thor, by the way, has the same theme, and they get very accurately.
but at ranges greater than 20 km there are already problems, because due to the resolution of the radar, the minimum guidance parameter increases to a large size and accuracy decreases.

[Newton]

Why chase after every rocket? Enough to suppress the radar guidance. Our Sushka a couple of years ago blinded all the TVs of the latest destroyer destroyer on the Black Sea.

[askme]

Millimeter channel than you will push? And the IR channel, and the TV channel? These are all the normal operating modes of the Shell. The shell, in other words, is designed for such operating conditions, with a very complex jamming environment. Like the S-400.

[Newton]

With the suppressed radar, this wunderwafer turns into an ordinary anti-aircraft gun, and will look for targets in the boundless sky in the old fashioned way - visually. You can still shoot at a sound in conditions of poor visibility.

[just exp]

keyword "depressed."
with a suppressed radar and patriots with thads, they’re not even anti-aircraft guns at all, but just standing exhibits.

[SETTGF]

You are a little wrong! The GOS is always needed, otherwise you will never hit the target, especially the high-speed one and even when intercepting and destroying the target due to a direct hit ...

[Romario_Argo]

Missiles are cheap, fast, but very primitive in design and aiming.

only this did not prevent the interception of the Ukrainian Point Otkr at a speed of 1100 m / s.

[just exp]

An ordinary Shell shell rocket accelerates to maximum speed in 1,5 seconds. Before hypersound, the seconds will accelerate in 3-4.

this is not hypersonic, hypersonic is 5 max or 1650ms, and the shell rocket has a maximum speed of 1300ms, i.e. ~ 4max

[SETTGF]

Dear! Do not write nonsense! The 57E6 rocket has a speed of 1300 m / s or 4680 km / h - this is a bit short of 4M, and hypersound starts from 5M, so everything is achievable "without tons of heptyl" ...

[Monos]

Yes, it’s not at all clear why a hypersonic missile is needed for near-range complexes. And what do these 60 km give if their own locator detects a target within a radius of 40 km?

[dorz]

This is a development for the future. By 1925, NATO will have analogues of hypersonic Russian systems.

[Herculesic]

dorz - you with a date were not mistaken by chance? ??

[dorz]

Quote: Herkulesich

dorz - you with a date were not mistaken by chance? ??

https://iz.ru/717121/2018-03-07/v-minoborony-nazv
ali-sroki-sozdaniia-analoga-iskandera-drugimi-str
anami

For other complexes, you can also find information on creating analogues.

[Monos]

Quote: dorz

This is a development for the future. By 1925, NATO will have analogues of hypersonic Russian systems.

Probably. It’s just pointless to fight hypersonic missiles in the near approaches. 40 km rocket even on 5 Max will pass in 25 seconds. Shoot down is unrealistic. I think even in automatic mode. Although...

[Vadim237]

It would be better to develop radars capable of detecting targets with an EPR of 0,015 meters squared at maximum distance.

[sib.ataman]

So! And who said that they had not started yet ?!

[sabakina]

Quote: Monos

Yes, it’s not at all clear why a hypersonic missile is needed for near-range complexes. And what do these 60 km give if their own locator detects a target within a radius of 40 km?

Vitka, hell knows! Everyone knows Einstein's theory of relativity, But how to put it into practice ... Well, you understand.

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: sabakina

! Everyone knows Einstein's theory of relativity, But how to put it into practice ..

If this theory is on soft paper, and the toilet is over, then it will be used in practice to the fullest ...

[askme]

For example, they will be able to intercept any air-to-ground missiles, helicopters and carrier aircraft to the launch lines of such missiles. The speed of hitting helicopters at a jump near the ground should be the highest. Will be a universal fighter)

[volodimer]

Without a locator, it makes no sense, and if you finish the locator for this range, then why? This range is Bukov’s “area of ​​responsibility”: targets at a range of 3 km to 45 km and at an altitude of 15 m to 25 km. Unless it is possible to launch Shell on targets with target designation from other systems. But again, if there is no external guidance, carry hypersonic missiles with you, and shoot them like usual?

[Piramidon]

Quote: volodimer

This range is the "area of ​​responsibility" Bukov "

What is wrong with different types of air defense systems overlapping each other in altitude and radius of action? You won’t get enough of every tank column of the Bukov.

[common man]

Quote: volodimer

Unless it is possible to launch Shell on targets with target designation from other systems.

That's it. Given that the shells cover the S-400, and in the future the S-500, and they see their radars very well, there will be no problems with target designation. In the ship version is similar.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Monos

If your own locator detects a target within a radius of 40 km?

Do you think that will stop there? What prevents to establish a more "far-sighted" locator?

[Monos]

Quote: Piramidon

What prevents to establish a more "far-sighted" locator?

Nothing interferes. Only this will be a different weight category. Can the “Shell” then cover the near zone?

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: Piramidon

What prevents to establish a more "far-sighted" locator?

For example, to install a radar on an unmanned tethered helicopter (optoelectronic system imager or something else). Energy and fuel by wire and hose from the ground.
Working samples were about forty years ago.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Captain Pushkin

For example, to install a radar on an unmanned tethered helicopter (optoelectronic system imager or something else). Energy and fuel by wire and hose from the ground.
Working samples were about forty years ago.

I came across an Internet clip on the topic of protecting our base in Syria. They showed a small tethered balloon with all-round cameras mounted on it. The picture and power are transmitted via cable. It is much easier than a helicopter. After all, you can install a locator on it.

[Black Colonel]

To unmask a balloon position - that’s it!

[Piramidon]

Quote: Black Colonel

To unmask a balloon position - that’s it!

A helicopter on a leash, as suggested here, will be less unmasked?

Quote: Captain Pushkin

For example, to install a radar on an unmanned tethered helicopter ...

[Tusv]

Quote: Monos

Yes, it’s not at all clear why a hypersonic missile is needed for near-range complexes. And what do these 60 km give if their own locator detects a target within a radius of 40 km?

Now auto start is in fashion, therefore axes with vigorous stuffing will fall in the territory of the adversary

[sib.ataman]

And the fly didn’t fly!

[Romario_Argo]

Yes, it’s not at all clear why a hypersonic missile is needed for near-range complexes. And what do these 60 km give if their own locator detects a target within a radius of 40 km?

this is for a third-party missile system, and in terms of missile range, they also wanted to adapt the Hermes ATGM as a missile system with a range of 100 km., here it turns out 60 km is the threshold for fuel burnout and, moreover, up to 100 km already by inertia.

[Tiksi-3]

Quote: siberalt

and 50-60 km. before the hypersound near the earth does not accelerate. And nothing winged so far flies

60 km is a range, not a height!

[bouncyhunter]

Quote: 210ox

anti-drone tool

Dim Not all developments are said out loud.

[210ox]

Pash It’s clear that it’s not about everything ... There was a video like the “Shell” of a Chinese drone from cannons ..

Quote: bouncyhunter

Quote: 210ox

anti-drone tool

Dim Not all developments are said out loud.

[bouncyhunter]

Quote: 210ox

There was a video like the "Shell" of a Chinese drone from cannons ..

It was, I saw. But with a swarm of UAVs you get tormented with guns, another solution is needed.

[figwam]

bouncyhunter

In Syria, UAVs have already trained with a swarm, partly shot down, partly landed.

[bouncyhunter]

Quote: figvam

part shot down, part landed

Here I just hint at EW, speaking about "another decision".

[sabakina]

Quote: bouncyhunter

Quote: figvam

part shot down, part landed

Here I just hint at EW, speaking about "another decision".

Pash, are you sure our shamans will agree?

[bouncyhunter]

Quote: sabakina

are you sure our shamans will agree?

No, not sure, Glory. But it’s not for me to explain to you how to interpret the refusal.

[shinobi]

There is already. And even in the portable version.

[bouncyhunter]

Quote: shinobi

There is already. And even in the portable version.

I know :

Quote: bouncyhunter

I’m hinting at the electronic warfare, talking about a “different solution”

[pomegranate]

It seems to me or there are no cannon weapons in the photo?

[bouncyhunter]

The perspective is this: the guns are hiding behind the PU SAM.

[Monos]

Pasha, hello!
Alive after a double holiday?

[bouncyhunter]

Victor, salute!

Quote: Monos

Alive after a double holiday?

Not only alive, but fresh and alert !!!

[Piramidon]

Quote: bouncyhunter

Not all developments are said out loud

This is the right thought. For a swarm of drones, I think they have already come up with something. Well, at least an awesome drone.

[Sirocco]

Quote: 210ox

And it would be even better if there was also a means to combat the swarm of drones.

So there are already similar developments. Https: //topwar.ru/134362-pancir-poluch
it-byudzhetnuyu-raketu-dlya-borby-s-bespilotnikam
i.html

[Bort radist]

Shrapnel ......

[Maz]

So in Syria and Iran, these complexes will make a noise in the southern neighbor

[SK70]

And flares are now hypersonic.
And Kamaz with a nuclear installation.

[SETTGF]

Shell-C1 destroys drones initially ... and not only them!

[Artek]

already tired of this "maybe". VO turns into a screen on which it is increasingly written, "it will be soon, it will be laid, in that year it will appear" instead of saying "it appeared, deliveries began, it went into operation."
We have been told a lot of things before, that there will be a moment35, that there will be c350, that there will be AEK, that there will be a Lebedev pistol, it will, it will be, it will be. Well, where is all this. Putin’s cartoons aren’t completely-not proven. And about a ramjet engine, actually laughter.

[Vitaly Anisimov]

Well, we’re driving men, all sorts of flyers! The carapace used to carry out cool shelling, but now .. heh heh ..
I remember the Turk from this system heaped up in the coastal zone of Syria! And also US lionfish, some .. The soul is sung patriotically by men!
Did Israeli F-16 fail hehe? Tested clearly !!!

[Geisenberg]

Quote: MIKHAN

well, we’re driving men, all sorts of flyers!

Yes, it's time to start already ...

[Lex.]

What is the coolness of 1 Turkish plane shot down, the Israeli air force does not need to enter the air defense zone

[St Petrov]

as far as I understand, half of your country in the area of ​​our air defense

[210ox]

And which one now enters the air defense zone ?! By the way, your plane was slammed "outside" the air defense zone ..

Quote: Lex.

What is the coolness of 1 Turkish plane shot down, the Israeli air force does not need to enter the air defense zone

[sabakina]

Quote: Lex.

What is the coolness of 1 Turkish plane shot down, the Israeli air force does not need to enter the air defense zone

Until you enter the river, you will not know its temperature.

[Gray brother]

Quote: Lex.

What is the coolness of 1 Turkish plane shot down, the Israeli air force does not need to enter the air defense zone

Latynina in touch:

... Israel’s colossal nuisance happened because in Israel planes enjoy complete impunity in the Syrian sky: they bombed more than 100 targets on Syrian soil since 2011. And not a single Israeli plane was shot down from the 80th year. And on the way back they met a serious barrage fire. The pilots had already relaxed by this time. It was their fault, because the barrage was fired from the Buk installation and from the S-200 installations, which, in principle, could not bring down the F-16. But, since the pilot at that moment considered the raven, the rocket exploded near the plane. The pilot catapulted, the shooter catapulted with him. The pilot was injured when the rocket exploded: it exploded near the plane, but didn’t hit it, but it was designed that way. The shooter was injured after bailout. He just got hurt when he plopped to the ground. However, they both survived. The plane crashed in the territory of Galilee. "

[Okolotochny]

And the "shooter", who is with the pilot? Shooter of what? Here is a fool, God forgive me.

[Sirocco]

Quote: Lex.

What is the coolness of 1 Turkish plane shot down, the Israeli air force does not need to enter the air defense zone

For these purposes, there are long-range ones, starting with the old people, ending with 300-400, but the Carapace completes what they did not finish at the distant frontier.

[Tiksi-3]

Quote: MIKHAN

A F-16 Israeli failed heh heh

do not confuse the vitalka sour with fresh .... fu 16 not from the shell got it !!

Quote: MIKHAN

Tested clearly !!!

translate? !!

[Vitaly Anisimov]

Quote: Tiksi-3

Quote: MIKHAN

A F-16 Israeli failed heh heh

do not confuse the vitalka sour with fresh .... fu 16 not from the shell got it !!

Quote: MIKHAN

Tested clearly !!!

translate? !!

In Hebrew. .? I don’t ask to fly kudos in Russian .. Once again you’re poking around to bomb Syria, we’ll dunk the airfield! Clear ?

[karish]

Quote: MIKHAN

In Hebrew. .? I don’t ask to fly kudos in Russian .. Once again you’re going to bomb Syria, we’ll kill the airfield! Clear ?

No, you are cool Meehan, well, just like boiling water
Come on, urine.
This morning a message passed

Arabs report Israeli strike on Kuneitra
Syrian rebels report on social networks report an Israeli air strike in the province of Kuneitra.

A blow was struck at the barracks with Iranian soldiers at the base of the 119th brigade in al-Kiswa.

[Vitaly Anisimov]

Quote: karish

No, you are cool Meehan, well, just like boiling water
Come on, urine.

Thank you .. hehe

Quote: karish

This morning a message passed

Exactly at 4 in the morning ..?

[Genry]

As the author crumpled the detection range of the "Shell-SM". Even Wikipedia says about 75 km.
And the hypersound came as something new for air defense missiles. More important is hypersound in intercepted targets.

[KVU-NSVD]

Now the fashionable title of “hypersonic” will be sculpted on everything ... just to be in trend. Here is an example of a fashionable trend in these statements of the "source", although it is only about creating a new modification of missiles for the Shell with an increased range. As was more recently .. remember? the essence and quality of things do not care - the main label ...

[Dezinto]

By the way, yeah)) I assure you with my hyper keyboard that it’s time to check hyper hyperness already, because "there" everyone is impudent!

[jovanni]

Quote: KVU-NSVD

Now the fashionable title of “hypersonic” will be sculpted for everything ... just to be in trend

Right! So at one time it was not far from me that a "nano-car wash" appeared, although in fact the most ordinary one. Now I will wait for a "hypercar" ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Jovanni

Right! So at one time it was not far from me that a "nano-car wash" appeared, although in fact the most ordinary one. Now I will wait for a "hypercar" ...

No, well, you have at least smart additions - "nano", "hyper", but in our simple case - a European car wash. Try to ask how the European car wash differs from the car wash, no one will intelligently answer. But it does! - Euro! As they say - about times, about morals!

[DEDPIHTO]

We underwent renovations ... in almost every apartment Now here is the next stage of development ..

[DEDPIHTO]

It remains to wait for ammunition on a vigorous traction, for personal small arms. The light pen-swords will also not be superfluous, if necessary, and the piece of iron can be opened, the soldier jumps to the abrams and is walking along the barrel of the cannon.

[Sirocco]

Quote: KVU-NSVD

Now the fashionable title of "hypersonic" will be sculpted on everything ...

Do not say)))) well at least they do not add such news here.

Hypersonic 3D rocket created by nanotechnology

[Piramidon]

Quote: KVU-NSVD

Now the fashionable title of “hypersonic” will be sculpted for everything.

It is usually used in combination with the words "shock", "fucking", "horror" ... "not having analogs"

[figter]

Judging by the values ​​of the range for detecting and hitting air targets after upgrading, the Pantsir-SM wants to become an analogue of Osa-AKM and Tor-M1, M2, Buk and go into the category of small-scale missile defense and even medium range. And what's the point if this niche is already taken? Replacing a hypersonic rocket will bring an increase in the dimensions and mass of the rocket, a change in the antenna-trigger device in the direction of an increase in its dimensions and mass (otherwise fewer missiles will be placed), an increase in mass and load on the chassis, a change in the receiving-transmitting device - an increase in the range; powerful electronic equipment. And we will end up with the same "Thor" or "Buk", but with a new rocket. It would be better to focus on improving the artillery canal for the defeat of unmanned aerial vehicles. More good was.

[Abrash]

Please tell me, are you probably working in design bureaus, are you developing rockets?

[figter]

Dear Abrasha, I graduated with honors from the Orenburg Higher Anti-aircraft Missile Command School. This allows me to judge the anti-aircraft missile systems and understand the significance of one or another action carried out in this area. In your turn, apart from disjointed attempts to break into reasoning and impose some absurdity, nothing sensible has been proposed. Go to another branch, praise there, cheer or shout something like that ...

[Abrash]

Dear Figter, but I’m looking not just from the military who already use finished products, but from the designers and engineers ... If a new missile is actually being developed, it means there is a need (even if you just need to load the design bureau with work (which all the same, it is unlikely) and pay people a salary), but this need is not for me and not for you to determine! Well, the design bureau cannot just take and do something itself, all the work is consistent with many authorities, otherwise simply the "product" will not even reach the test and military acceptance.

[shuravi]

Quote: figter

Dear Abrasha, I graduated with honors from the Orenburg Higher Anti-aircraft Missile Command School. This allows me to judge the anti-aircraft missile systems and understand the significance of one or another action carried out in this area. In your turn, apart from disjointed attempts to break into reasoning and impose some absurdity, nothing sensible has been proposed. Go to another branch, praise there, cheer or shout something like that ...

There are two points:
1. Making such statements (I’ve finished) you need to be ready to give evidence that otherwise you will get a blah blah.
2. For the sake of curiosity, I looked at your publication.
https://topwar.ru/48266-voprosy-optimizacii-organ
izacionno-shtatnoy-struktury-obschevoyskovyh-podr
azdeleniy.html
I marveled. No, not to the fact that an air defense specialist suddenly took up the discourse on the staff structure of the ground forces. This is just normal, every graduate must have knowledge in this area.
The fact is that I will not even say that she is illiterate, she is none. Complete lack of understanding of the subject matter.

[Genry]

Quote: figter

"Shell-SM" wants to become an analogue of the "Osa-AKM" and "Tor-M1, M2", "Buk" and go into the category of short-range and even medium-range air defense systems. And what's the point if this niche is already taken?

Are you against the fact that, with its dimension of the rocket, the Shell-SM has the characteristics of heavier and more expensive systems? I am surprised!
After all, even any stupid trade manager, without the "highest Orenburg ..." it is clear that it is more profitable for the purchase and storage and transportation and the simplicity and quantity of installation of missiles on each launch vehicle.

[figter]

Who told you that the dimension of the rocket is preserved? That is, other design bureaus consist of idiots, design rockets with a greater mass, are more expensive and cannot guess, as in Tula, to give the Motherland "hypersonic" rockets? It’s just there they are really looking at the situation, and not PR. The question is not only one rocket rests. The rocket changes, and the equipment changes. And you can not "shove" in the "shell" C-400, no matter how much you want it.

[Genry]

Quote: figter

Who told you that the dimension of the rocket is preserved?

But is it not clear that if you change the size of the rocket, then the entire launcher and chassis will change. And it will cease to be a Shell.
The technical level is changing. How much did the first onboard computers weigh? How much did the first royal missiles (type R-1) weigh with which they demonstrated the ability to get America? And now, a small wick, which fits under the wing of an airplane, has such an opportunity.
At the current stage of technological development, more powerful chemical compounds for engines and more advanced and compact electronics have appeared. And it was just stuffed into the same iron.

[SETTGF]

Figter! Do not write nonsense! Missiles of the complex are selected from its tasks! The design bureaus employ specialists who know radar and can count, unlike you ...

[figter]

I do not mind the "shell" had brilliant characteristics. The point is that each air defense system should do its own thing. Just as in the infantry ranks, where each other is covered from the rear and flanks, so the air defense systems of each air defense system have their own mission and niche. If the “Shell” instead of destroying low-flying and near-sized small targets starts to engage in nonsense, then the entire air defense system will suffer from this. Tula KB did not bring to mind the “Tunguska”, trying to reorient the “Shell” to another range. and who will fight the NLC, helicopters, the KR, etc.? Take Syria, where this issue is relevant. UAVs roam with impunity, there is no effective means of struggle with them. But the Tula Design Bureau, which designs short-range complexes, should deal with this issue. Why do we need their hypersonic missiles, if they cannot cope with the artillery canal, to give normal caliber, accuracy of fire, accuracy of detection and guidance, in order to deliver a normal barrage. The "Tunguska" was and has a radar guidance system. Ask the people who served on it, how many times did they actually use it when shooting? Most of you will answer that never. Because he does not provide her with shooting. They shoot at optics, dropping to reconnaissance capabilities to the level of the ancient Shilka. And you want to say that the Tula Design Bureau is going the right way, is engaged in hypersound? What kind of hypersound are they if there is no normal, short-range complex with an artillery canal. And in the fight against unmanned vehicles, today, the setting of barrage fire by the receiver channels in the unit is the only possible and effective means.

[Genry]

Quote: figter

If the "Shell" instead of destroying low-flying and near-sized small targets begins to engage in nonsense, then the entire air defense system will suffer.

And where did you get that he will not do this? He will simply do this over a larger area (within line of sight).

Quote: figter

and who will fight with NLC, helicopters, KR, etc.?

Well, as it were, without the excess and expensive radar, on optics: Pine, Derivation ...

Quote: figter

Take Syria where this issue is relevant. Drones walk around with impunity, there are no effective means of struggle with them.

Just in Syria with drones sorted out "excellent." Here with mortar shelling - blundered.

Quote: figter

Why do we need their hypersonic missiles, if they can’t cope with the artillery channel, give a normal caliber, accuracy of fire, accuracy of detection and guidance to put a normal barrage.

Hypersonic missile and so in most of the air defense. If you want to shoot down an airplane flying at a speed of about 3000km / h, your rocket must have a much higher speed in order to keep up.

Quote: figter

The "Tunguska" had and has a radar guidance system. Ask the people on it how many times they actually used it when shooting? Most will answer you that never. Because, he does not provide her with shooting. They shoot in optics, dropping down the intelligence capabilities to the level of the ancient Shilka.

At short distances, the radar is redundant, the optics are enough with a margin. And for early detection, you can use the "Harmony" with a rising antenna and standing on the side, which will delay threats from anti-radar missiles.

Quote: figter

Why do we need their hypersonic missiles, if they can’t cope with the artillery channel, give a normal caliber, accuracy of fire, accuracy of detection and guidance to put a normal barrage.

Did you study somewhere exactly? The word "derivation" means nothing to you. You will never be able to accurately shoot unguided projectiles from a rifled barrel. There are already crammed and made the module "Air Defense Derivation", which shoots 57mm guided missiles.

Quote: figter

And in the fight against unmanned vehicles, today, the installation of obstructive fire with barrel channels as part of the unit is the only possible and effective means.

UAVs are different and their means of destruction are already different.
Stop whining!

[figter]

Well, as it were, without redundant and expensive radar, on optics: Pine, Derivation

Are they already in the army?

Hypersonic missile and so in most of the air defense. If you want to shoot down an airplane flying at a speed of about 3000km / h, your rocket must have a much higher speed in order to keep up.

Where did you see speed near 3000 km / h at extreme low and low altitudes?

And for early detection, you can use the "Harmony" with a rising antenna and standing in the side, which will delay the threat of anti-locator missiles.

Come on, expand your Harmony at the forefront with a rising antenna. How long is it there in seconds?

Did you study somewhere exactly? The word "derivation" means nothing to you. You will never be able to accurately shoot unguided projectiles from a rifled barrel. There are already crammed and made the module "Air Defense Derivation", which shoots 57mm guided missiles.

Do you understand exactly what is at stake? Distinguish the concept of "accurate shooting" from "barrage"
Do not say nonsense!

[Genry]

Quote: figter

Are they already in the army?

Do they need them right now?

Quote: figter

Where did you see speed near 3000 km / h at extreme low and low altitudes?

On approaching the target, the speed may be greater, since the problem is only in overheating, which does not occur immediately.

Quote: figter

Come on, expand your Harmony at the forefront with a rising antenna. How long is it there in seconds?

What kind of radar did you offer then?

Quote: figter

Do you understand exactly what is at stake? Distinguish the concept of "accurate shooting" from "barrage"

Barrage - this is for the "rich burratin". Lime a couple of tons of iron to knock down a plastic model or get into the "crowbar" of the head of one of the flocks of missiles. Oooh ...

[figter]

Barrage fire - this is for "rich burratin". Lime a few tons of iron to shoot down a plastic model or get into the "crowbar" of the head of one of the flock of rockets. Oooo ..

Barrier fire is the only thing today that can be used to fight drones. This plastic modelka, note, conducts reconnaissance and is part of the reconnaissance-strike complex, and when it appears you have 10-15 minutes to disappear. Otherwise, it will not find it. The cost of all this iron is much lower than the cost of any anti-aircraft missile, and in any case much cheaper than the lives of people and subordinates. By the way, this is quite a normal and used type of fire, there is nothing rich in it.

What kind of radar did you offer then?

Well, anything that does not unfold with the rise of the antenna at the front edge. Without any doubts. It is better then the sound collector with a mouthpiece left from the Second World War. There is currently no guaranteeing the discovery of UAV intelligence assets. Moreover, all the "innovations" you have listed either will not take root, or are currently in the military at the level of Krylov's fable.

[Genry]

Quote: figter

Barrage fire - this is the only thing today that you can fight with drones.

Nah!
Small drone, cannot be well protected (shielded). Therefore, it is easily "turned off" by ground-based electronic warfare. The big one is already a valuable target and it can be removed with a rocket if the electronic warfare does not help (you can fly closer to it).

Quote: figter

There are currently no warranties for the timely detection of UAV intelligence.

What? Even a simple "Harmony" will see any UAV by the presence of pieces of iron in it (motor, battery). All focus in wavelength ....

Quote: figter

... eat more, all the "innovations" you have listed will either not take root, or at the moment their presence in the troops at the level of Krylov's fable.

Fables are your comments. A highly automated technique (microprocessor part) has a very short life (5-10 years equal to 100 human). Look at your amerikosov, F-22s fly on ancient processors, they do not pull the extension of functionality and the entire screen graphics works with delays. Therefore, it makes sense to have a well-developed reserve with the possibility of quick staffing technology and smart munitions modern electronics, with the withdrawal from backup storage.
IMHO Armata, Su-57, ..... will not saturate in the troops until their real need. Otherwise, it will be too hard to bring them to the last level of modernization.

[figter]

What? Even a simple "Harmony" will see any UAV by the presence of pieces of iron in it (motor, battery). All focus in wavelength ....

Yeah ... The very naivety .. Nonsense is all that. Tell me honestly, did you see before making such statements?

[Genry]

Quote: figter

Yeah ... The very naivety .. Nonsense is all that. Tell me honestly, did you see before making such statements?

Not expected! You thought a normal person ... And you are a primitive troll, with questions from the standard list.
You will never get the answer to this question, regardless of the seen-not seen. Only .... you will definitely answer such questions. Do not understand this - this is your level (this is not even a naive age).

[figter]

And then the troll. You have optimistic views on the detection of UAVs. I tell you that you will not find. You start from some unknown TTX, written for promotional purposes to attract customers and increase sales. But keep in mind that these are ideal conditions. In a real situation, where in addition to interference from the enemy, asynchronous interference from their own neighbors and various radio stations nearby will also be affected, so-called white noise with reflections from the terrain. Plus, the psychological factor that is the worst. And all this under the fire of the enemy. To find an inconspicuous target, not even knowing about the initial direction of its flight, in such conditions is almost impossible. It is possible only if in advance the antenna-launcher is induced in the direction of flight and the UAV, in fact, enters the beam itself.
To shoot a rocket, you will need its auto-capture and tracking in three coordinates. Taking into account the specified conditions and a small EPR - the disruption of the tracking is ensured even in the case of auto-gripping. Therefore, the shooting will be no. Next, note that the radar operation will attract the attention of the enemy in a few minutes. You will either be overwhelmed with interference, or they will start up a gift in the form of an anti-radar missile, I’m not even talking about the simplest one - they’ll be arthropod. Therefore, we need a frequent change of position. What can be found in such conditions? Nothing. hence the conclusion - the best way to deal with the UAV at the front edge (or near it) is to conduct visual reconnaissance into an optical or thermal imager (TOV) without radiation, followed by artillery fire. Turn on the radar is not enough time, and the enemy will not give.

[Genry]

Quote: figter

It is almost impossible to find an unobtrusive target without even knowing about the initial direction of its flight under such conditions.

You obviously did not study in the specialty related to radio signals and mathematics. If you have a target in the spectrum of the field signal, you can find any one; for this you need to spend the necessary amount of calculations. The entire field is calculated (otherwise you will lose some of the information), and all signals there are equivalent. After processing, all interference and all targets will be clearly distinguished (part of the list can be nailed). It is only necessary to select the most interesting or dangerous and put them in charge of the route, according to it you specify the nature and parameters of the target ..... Then the data is transmitted to the dispatcher (maybe artificial intelligence), the alienness and destruction to launchers is confirmed. This is a primitive description. This is how almost all small-sized (mobile) air defense systems of near radius work (like robots destroying everything that flies).

Quote: figter

To fire a rocket, it will need its autocapture and tracking in three coordinates. Given these conditions and a small EPR - disruption of tracking is provided even in the case of auto-capture.

How it all starts ... Here the rockets are at the level of anti-tank systems. They are completely brainless. The laser or radio beam simply gives commands like right-to-left .... The escort station, on the launcher, simply reduces the target and missile marks.

Quote: figter

Turn on the radar is not enough time, and the enemy will not.

A small radius radar (Harmony) has a very weak signal, or it can even be from the outside (passive mode). This can be compared with how a person sees in a lighted environment.

Quote: figter

the best way to combat UAVs at or near the front edge is to conduct visual reconnaissance into an optical or thermal imaging sight (TOV) without radiation, followed by fire by an artichannel.

You don’t even know that this is called opto-electronic-station-detection. It is used in short-range air defense and on airplanes. "Pine", "Derivation of air defense" use it. All modern combat aircraft and aircraft with systems of the "President" family

[figter]

You and I have different understandings of this issue. I am telling you from a practical point of view, based on what is currently in the army and how it works. And you tell me some fables from the future and flaunt in different order the terms "Pine", "Derivation", etc. You are a theorist and that says it all. It does not make sense to talk further.
Conversation about nothing.

[Genry]

Quote: figter

You and I have different understandings of this issue. I am telling you from a practical point of view, based on what is currently in the army and how it works. And you tell me some fables from the future and flaunt in different order the terms "Pine", "Derivation", etc. You are a theorist and that says it all. It does not make sense to talk further.
Conversation about nothing.

Your reasoning at the level of the 70s.
Then you are lamenting that there is nothing to shoot down drones, but you were clearly told how they got rid of them at the Khmeinim base.
Then you say that it is impossible to detect UAVs. I clearly answered you about the Garmon radar station, which has already been put into the army, which, thanks to its short range (although this is not a plus), has a very short wavelength and sees small pieces of iron.
You began to rant about the fact that only visually it is necessary to look for small UAVs. I told you that this task has already been solved and there are systems that do this with minimal operator involvement.
You tryndeli that only barrage fire and in no way the exact defeat of the target is unacceptable.
Stay in your 70s. You are already hopeless ...

[Herculesic]

Maybe there will be a rocket capable of entering a low orbit? Why is a "shell" a hypersonic missile, with its range of work on targets? It is wasteful and inefficient! Such a missile is needed by a complex with a target range of 100 or more kilometers! But the "Shell", "Toru", "Buk" such missiles are unnecessary to use on these complexes.

[Abrash]

Here is another expert who knows which missiles are redundant!

[figter]

Quote: Abrasha

Here is another expert who knows which missiles are redundant!

Correct person writes. Save your urapatriotichesky bile.
"Shell" in the original sense of the complex short-range, covering objects at low and extremely low altitudes, where air targets fly at subsonic speeds. On what do "Pantsiru" need to shoot at them expensive supersonic rockets? His task is to replace the Tunguska, which has not been fully crafted, and to work on UAVs, cruise missiles and helicopters. Instead, the Tula KB is trying to wedge into a completely different class of air defense system. Now there are actually no normal means of dealing with unmanned aircraft. That's where you need to develop, and not try to tear off the flow of "bubble" from the CB "Antey".

[Kurare]

Quote: figter

The “shell” in the original sense is a short-range complex that covers objects at low and extremely low altitudes, where aerial targets fly at subsonic speeds. What kind of shell does the “Shell” need to shoot at them with expensive supersonic missiles?

The fact of the matter is that the missiles will be different, even possibly of different calibers, and each will have its own task.

Quote: figter

Its task is to replace the “Tunguska” that was never brought to mind and work on drones, cruise missiles and helicopters.

What he, at the moment, is doing quite effectively. By the way, information slipped that Pantsyr was developing a new type of significantly cheaper missiles, four in one standard container, which would fight drones. So, work is being done in this direction.

Quote: figter

Instead, the Tula Design Bureau is trying to break into a completely different class of air defense systems.

As for who, where and in what class, the issue is debatable. What used to be considered the average range has now become near. It’s just that in Tula they are “pushing” this near line slowly. At 60 km it’s hard for me to believe, but 30-40 is quite real.
Now imagine such a compact "combine" air defense on ships less than 1000 tons. Suddenly, such a "pleasure boat" becomes extremely toothy for air threats. Those. the same Buyans will become a very difficult target for anti-ship missiles and even aviation.

[figter]

By the way, information was slipping in that for Pantsyr to develop a new type of much cheaper rockets, four to one standard container that would fight drones. So, work is just underway in this direction.

UAVs have a low effective reflective surface, a low probability of their detection using radar and, accordingly, the chances of timely detection and launch of a rocket on them are small. In my personal practice, there was a case when a whole division with working detection radars could not detect a UAV at all. Despite the fact that the cars were quite competent specialists. Therefore, to combat drones requires more to develop a highly sensitive radar for this range than a new type of rocket.

[Kurare]

Quote: figter

Therefore, to combat drones, it is necessary to develop a highly sensitive radar for this range more than a new type of missile.

Of course, even the best missile without a detection and guidance system is nothing. At present, Shell C1 is capable of detecting a target with an EPR of 2 m² at a distance of about 30-35 km. That is, when new long-range missiles are developed, the current radar is no longer suitable. Also, indicators for the detection of targets with low ESR, tobin UAVs, should be improved.
What I want to say is that there is a comprehensive work on the Shell of SM and their purpose:
- an increase in the detection range (I think somewhere around 50 maybe 60 km)
- an increase in the range of destruction (in my opinion, about 40 km)
- performance enhancement to combat UAVs
- the development of thinner and cheaper missiles to combat UAVs

[figter]

Personally, in my opinion, the direction of work on improving the "Shell" should be in the direction of:
1. Increasing the caliber from 30 to 57 mm and increasing the accuracy, rate of fire and range of their shooting;
2. The development of increased cassette capacity with 57 mm. shells in BM.
3. The possibility of enhancing the security of the chassis from enemy fire (being in battle right on the front line, on the march, it moves as part of motorized rifle and tank company columns);
4. Equipment with thermal and improved optical channels;
5. The possibility of grouping fire fighting platoon at the level of "one touch" with the rapid transfer of fire to another target.
6. The possibility of exchanging information about the air target with other classes of air defense missile systems at the combat vehicle level.

[Kurare]

Point by point:
1. I do not agree. This will be a completely different machine, a different weight category.
2. See Clause 1
3. For example Tunguska 2? Again, another car, another class.
4. The thermal imager is worth it. And the improvement of its characteristics is by itself.
5. As far as I know, a group reflection of the threat in the Shell is present.
6. As in Clause 5, there is an exchange of information. Question: how deep and detailed it is. Network-centricity, one of the main functions in TK for the development of new systems.

[figter]

Also on points:
1. It will turn out exactly what is required in the battle, and not what the CB wants to increase the cost of the project;
2. That is what should be the weight category of the Shell;
3. Tunguska very raw car. In my understanding - shell its replacement. Otherwise, it is a development to nowhere.
4. With a thermal imager clear. With high probability that the radar in combat will not be included. Or it will be switched on for short periods after visual detection and combining the antenna-trigger device with the line of sight of the target.
5 and 6. Exchange of information, even if it is provided for, provided that the complexes are developed by different design bureaus, they will not be joined. This is our eternal disease. Or "there are automated management tools, but they are not even in the area of ​​guaranteed management and receiving control commands, even if they are operational." Immediately I recall the ancient ASPU, PU-12 and other trash. In order to use this miracle of technology in battle, it was necessary to have a lot of nerves.

[shuravi]

Quote: figter

3. Tunguska very raw car. In my understanding - shell its replacement. Otherwise, it is a development to nowhere.

Yah? This complex is in production. Can you tell me how many of them entered the ground forces?

[Kurare]

Quote: figter

5 and 6. Exchange of information, even if it is provided, provided that the complexes are developed by different design bureaus, they will not dock. This is our eternal disease.

When creating a single information field, it does not matter which design bureau created which system. Everything rests on the creation of a universal protocol for the exchange of information from various sources. You are right, before you did not pay much attention to this, but it was before! Now everything is changing for the better.

[SETTGF]

Do not write nonsense! Carapace-C1 was originally designed to destroy UAVs ... with an EPR target of 2 cm3,6, target detection will be at a distance of XNUMX km ... There is no exact data on the Internet - only the manufacturer of the radar complex knows this ...

[SETTGF]

Curare! Carapace-C1 radar is developed according to different criteria; including the range even greater than the range of the entire complex ... To increase the range by 2 times, it is necessary to raise the pulse power of the transmitter by 16 times, and this is an increase in power consumption, and an increase in the power of the supply device is an increase in size ... About the rest, I will not write like an antenna; radar receiver, range, EPR and more! Read it for yourself!

[SETTGF]

"Excellent student!" Do not write nonsense! The missile of the 57E6 complex is supersonic - a speed of 1300 m / s or 4680 km / h. Learn to count for a start! Hypersound starts at 5M.

[figter]

with the EPR of the target 2 sq. cm, the detection of the target will be at a distance of 3,6 km

Listen, wonder-man, you twisted straight inside out twice to draw attention to yourself ...
The phrase you said about the detection at a distance of 3,6 km with EPR 2 square. see means in combat, that you are no longer alive.. And if still alive, open the hatches and run on all four. This shed kilometers with 15 visible from the air, if not more.

[SETTGF]

Figter! Do not show your ignorance ... learn radar! I counted you from open data on the Internet - the range of action is 36 km with EPR = 2 square meters. meters per 2 sq. cm. only radar manufacturer knows the real data ... YOU ARE SIMPLY CAREFUL.

[SETTGF]

And this is only for drones! Read carefully and write her silly nonsense !!!

[SETTGF]

Figter! EPR = 2 sq. cm - this is a very tiny drone, smaller than a palm! A strike drone will be visible beyond 20 km ... Therefore, do not worry, there will be no threat to the complex! Learn materiel and do not write nonsense!

[figter]

The 57EX6 supersonic missile is 1300 speed m / sec or 4680 km / h. Learn to count to start! Hypersound starts with 5M

Is that all you wanted to convey to me? Do not disturb me with people to communicate

[SETTGF]

yes, by the time of a random law, your nonsynchronous interference goes away ... And about white noise, Shrike, Narm and other rockets, don’t write nonsense, as well as about everything else. You do not have knowledge in the field of radar!

[SETTGF]

Excuse me! Among other things, the use of AFAR and AFAR in anti-aircraft systems makes it possible to neutralize to a certain limit various kinds of interference from the directions of their formulation ... And with AFAR it is possible to interfere with a certain algorithm in the direction of enemy means, i.e. use EW as a means, while the radar continues to work in the main mode - target detection ... all this is used in new aircraft radars, for example, "Squirrel" ... All the best and more!

[SETTGF]

Figter! Do not write nonsense! And learn to start to count and learn the radar ... The missile complex 57E6 supersonic, speed about 4M !!!

[Stiletto_711]

Quote: Herkulesich

Why is the "shell" a hypersonic missile, with its range of work on targets

Then, to intercept targets with near hypersonic speeds. The fact that in the segment of goals for which the Pantsir air defense missile system works does not yet exist, does not mean that there is no need to prepare. And what does the range of defeat? Enough detection range to provide at the required level

[flicker]

At the moment, work is underway to create hypersonic missiles for the Pantsir. It is planned to bring the range to 50-60 kilometers

Good news for our overseas "partners" and their allies.

[Vadim237]

They have bombs and missiles flying hundreds and thousands of kilometers - planes do not need to enter the air defense zone.

[Genry]

Quote: Vadim237

They have bombs and missiles flying hundreds and thousands of kilometers - planes do not need to enter the air defense zone.

So what? Now we need their bombs to spread the red carpet?
Aircraft with toothless weapons will not fly and the carapace pulls these teeth out to them.

[tchoni]

It seems that the "hypersound" is contagious ... it has become a kind of "presidential trend" ... Like rockets in the days of Khrushchev. Togla was rocket and jet everything. From vacuum cleaners to tanks. From ships to radios ...
Maybe experts from the design bureau should think about how to teach the “Shell” a dozen or three small-sized targets to shoot down at a time and leave Caesar's caesar?

[Shahno]

I agree all the more that during a low-altitude breakthrough, it’s not the speed of the targets that matters, but their number and EPR, and of course the inexpensive unit cost ... of ammunition or UAV.

[tchoni]

Here I am about the same. As far as I understood, your engineers of any kind “hezballoids” helped to finish the concept of a short-distance, but terribly multi-channel system. And even then it’s not completely finished, because in a number of publications they complain about the iron dome, charging him the cost of ammunition ...

[Shahno]

Now they have seriously reduced the cost, by 2.5 times. These pieces of iron are not predictable .... When they fall en masse anyway, we don’t hit everyone. Recognize target class and danger. But sometimes this pipe can get into kindergarten. We cannot keep so many batteries in Ashkelon. If the trajectory is dangerous, the system, because the projectile does not carry warheads, can give a command to destroy another target.

[tchoni]

Quote: Shahno

If the trajectory is dangerous, the system, because the shell does not carry warheads, can give the command to destroy other targets.

This is the complexity of such systems. A lot of goals, a lot of interference, very little time to make decisions.
Therefore, it is easier for our specialists to rocket a missile with a greater range and report on the achievement of the next "unavailable analogue in the world" result ...

[Vadim237]

Only bursts of 30 mm guns. A breakthrough in hypersound will occur when it is adopted and launched into a series of rockets with a scramjet and low profile flight.

[Abrash]

Dear experts and couch analysts! At one time, you very much amused us with your "analyzes" of Almaty, when in any case it turned out that the money was wasted, regardless of the caliber of the gun, the presence of KAZ, etc. So here, according to "local analysts" - the development of a rocket capable of increasing the effectiveness of the "shell" is redundant and not needed, and when there is no such rocket, the "Shell" is not effective, it cannot "catch up" with the F-16 (in the Israeli sky ) etc. So I see how the design bureau with the whole staff turns off the work, quits and goes to work as "effective managers" ...

[groks]

Hello garage. This is not the S-300, 400, 500. Why does he need such a range? What will remain instead of him, in the near zone?
Yes - and has something changed with Armata? Did the whole world queue for her? Not? So the money is not only wasted in vain, but will continue to be wasted in vain.

[Genry]

Quote: groks

Hello garage. This is not the S-300, 400, 500. Why does he need such a range? What will remain instead of him, in the near zone?

Do you need a mare or gelding? (...)
Range determines the number of required complexes per unit of perimeter or area. Increasing the range by 2 times increases the area protected by the complex. 4 times ... Or are you not good at math? And we are talking about the same dimension of missiles and, accordingly, cost.
And air defense systems 300-400-500 in general for large and not numerous purposes. To repulse massive attacks (MLRS missiles, cruise bombs and missiles), complexes like Shell, Pine, ...

[groks]

in 4 times

And if in space, then at 8!
No need to write any nonsense. In this case, it is proposed to increase the speed of the missiles, from which it is not known why the range will increase and as a result the complex will crawl ahead of Buka. And on the drum, that it will not cover anything either in accompaniment or in the number of missiles. But hypersound!
I drank in the defense industry already takes some completely impudent forms.

[Genry]

Quote: groks

No need to write any nonsense. In this case, it is proposed to increase the speed of the missiles, from which it is not known why the range will increase and as a result the complex will crawl ahead of Buka.

By whom and where is it proposed?
How's it going Buka? He has his own modernization ...

Quote: groks

And on the drum, that it will not cover anything either in accompaniment or in the number of missiles. But hypersound!

This is what you wrote so that no one could answer you? Some kind of confusion ...

Quote: groks

I drank in the defense industry already takes some completely impudent forms.

Bulked - sawed? When will you think with your brains? And then, out of school habit, you trust stupid manuals.

[tchoni]

Did you see the “armature” in the troops ?!

[St Petrov]

I think not every tankit saw her in the army. but she still is like the order for her from the MO.

Stupid question

[tchoni]

That's when she really goes to the troops, when at least every fifth tanker sees her in the troops ... then it will be possible to say that we have "armata" ...
In the meantime, there is only a lot of b3, which they give out as a new armament ... and a little t-90 ... Something like this ...

[Mountain shooter]

This indicates a breakthrough, with new solid fuel in Russia. With increased energy. So the Iskanders will fly thousands of kilometers ...

[shinobi]

Most likely the new fuel for dviguns worked out. In principle, missiles of this type have not changed since the 60s. Materials, fuel and guidance method are changing. And so is the same feathered tube filled with gunpowder.

[Stiletto_711]

Anti-aircraft missile speed 57E6

57E6 is an export version of missiles. For the Red Army, 95Y6

[K-50]

The range of the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile and cannon system can increase to 60 km through the use of hypersonic missiles

Nah, I don't believe it.
In those mass dimensions that have Shell shells, it is very doubtful to make a hypersonic missile.
I'm certainly not special, but it is quite possible to compare missiles of various systems in size, mass and performance characteristics. It is also possible to extrapolate. So in the possibility of hypersound on the "Shell" I doubt very much.

[St Petrov]

we don’t have all the data here to judge. we don’t know about the technology at which speed is achieved. plasma, fuel or magic as an adjustment to the law of physics.

we can only read and take note. In a few years, everything will take shape and clarity.

In the corresponding department, I think everyone took into account the evidence that was written here in the comments

[Hurricane70]

Quote: MIKHAN

Well, we’re driving men, all sorts of flyers! The carapace used to carry out cool shelling, but now .. heh heh ..
I remember the Turk from this system heaped up in the coastal zone of Syria! And also US lionfish, some .. The soul is sung patriotically by men!
Did Israeli F-16 fail hehe? Tested clearly !!!

Are you always positive, Meehan? Admit, where the Polygonal Affairs Professor, why did not you see this character for a long time? Verb and hyperclave defeated him?

[Old26]

Quote: KVU-NSVD

Now the fashionable title of “hypersonic” will be sculpted on everything ... just to be in trend.
.

Yeah. Soon we will hear that our fighters will be armed with machine guns with "hypersound" firing speed
It is not clear why the “Shell” needs hypersonic missiles with a range of 60 km. The niche of the complex is to shoot through targets that have broken through the Esok, Bukov, and Torov zones. The missile destruction range will increase, which means that the minimum of the destruction range may also increase. And the trunks will remain the same.
In addition, for such a new missile, new radars (and there are three) will be needed. So the weight will float. New missiles will certainly be significantly heavier, because the range will triple (the current ones weigh under 100 kg). That is, the weight of the complex will still increase? Is it necessary ???

[Anchonsha]

Yes, it’s good that science does not stand still and weapons are being improved more and more. But first of all, we need an advanced economy in the country, and then the United States will go into oblivion and peace will come to our land.

[rocket757]

Axiom - Schaub didn’t arrive, it’s necessary to level the place where he can fly from!
More Caliber, Iskander !!! new, different and with different fillings !!!
And the fact that everything was found, how and where to fly from, let Vol. and armor finish off!

[Dormidont]

For our Western and Middle Eastern partners, no missiles are a pity

[san4es]

From 2018, the troops will begin to receive a modernized version of the complex, "Shell-SM."

Development work (ROC) on the promising anti-aircraft missile-cannon system "Shell-SM" will be completed in 2019, several prototypes have already been manufactured and tested. This was announced at the air show Dubai Airshow 2017 by the General Director of the holding "High-precision complexes" Alexander Denisov. “We are completing development work, if I am not mistaken, in 2019. Already several samples of the [Pantsir-SM complex] have been manufactured and are being tested, ”he said. Speaking about a new high-speed anti-aircraft guided missile for this complex, Denisov specified that it would be “good” and could be used even on previous models of the complex. “It is universal, so the tests are so lengthy. “Shell-SM” is a completely new complex that will surpass the C1 version by one and a half to two times, ”Denisov summed up. TASS
Source: http://bastion-opk.ru/pantsir-sm/

[Xscorpion]

Quote: siberalt

And who would argue? Calculate the initial mass of the projectile with the moment of acceleration, even to achieve a speed of 5 max and how much time it will take on a site of 50 km. Well, how many tons of heptyl is needed for an ordinary shell shell?

What is there to count? You first get acquainted with the characteristics. Shell shells and so on develop 5 speed max, even without this hypersonic modification. In general, this is news from last year.

[SETTGF]

Xccorpion! You are not right! The missile of the Pacir-S1 57E6 complex develops a speed of 1300 m / s or 4680 km / h, and hypersonic sound starts at 5 m or 6000 km / h ...

[kerosene]

57E6 - This is an EXPORT version of SAM.

[Xscorpion]

Quote: Monos

Yes, it’s not at all clear why a hypersonic missile is needed for near-range complexes. And what do these 60 km give if their own locator detects a target within a radius of 40 km?

75 km target detection range, your data is inaccurate.

[san4es]

"Carapace - C1". The complex was developed by a number of structures of the military-industrial complex of the USSR and Russia, headed by the Instrument Design Bureau. History of creation:

[Bort radist]

Quote: sabakina

Quote: Lex.

What is the coolness of 1 Turkish plane shot down, the Israeli air force does not need to enter the air defense zone

Until you enter the river, you will not know its temperature.

And you won’t enter twice))

[Xscorpion]

Quote: figter

Dear Abrasha, I graduated with honors from the Orenburg Higher Anti-aircraft Missile Command School. This allows me to judge the anti-aircraft missile systems and understand the significance of one or another action carried out in this area. In your turn, apart from disjointed attempts to break into reasoning and impose some absurdity, nothing sensible has been proposed. Go to another branch, praise there, cheer or shout something like that ...

I’m afraid that you were finishing it a very long time. Otherwise, you would know that the speed of intercepted targets depends on the speed of the missile. What is wrong with the speed of intercepted targets increasing by 1000 times, if not more? Everyone sees only the range. And about the time spent on the rocket’s flight to the target, the probability of hitting the target, speed and types of targets are forgotten. As for hyper sound. You do not need to change the dimensions of the rocket, just change the type of fuel. Now it uses solid fuel ordinary nitroglycerin gunpowder based on hexogen, which was developed even by horseradish knows when. Do you think chemists haven’t come up with anything new for decades? You don’t need to invent anything there, just increase the explosive share or replace it with a more powerful explosive. XNUMX m / s was considered sufficient. Now new tasks are set for intercepted goals.

[groks]

probability of hitting a target

With an increase in the speed of the rocket, this parameter will decrease.

Now they use solid fuel, ordinary RDX-based nitroglycerin gunpowder

This will be one of the options plastid. Horrroshoe fuel!

[figter]

Do you really think that in this development we can limit ourselves only to changes in the rocket? It is simply impossible. In order to hit a target at a great distance, it must be detected with the required accuracy, that is, to make changes to the antenna-waveguide part, which receives and transmits, which in turn will entail changes in the structural part of the machine itself. And they are plagued by vague doubts that the design of the rocket itself will remain the same. So, do not torment yourself with illusions.

[figter]

Quote: shuravi

I marveled. No, not to the fact that an air defense specialist suddenly took up the discourse on the staff structure of the ground forces. This is just normal, every graduate must have knowledge in this area.

It is surprising that the air defense is also part of the Ground Forces, that anti-aircraft missile and anti-aircraft missile and artillery units are part of and attached to motorized rifle units and formations. You will probably be surprised, but most of the time I served in precisely such units as part of motorized rifle formations. And you will probably also be surprised that in military schools of the air defense they teach general tactics, fire training along with special ones. Probably upset the moment that many air defense experts commanded the platoons and fire support batteries in the hot spots and know what the infantry is firsthand.

[shuravi]

Quote: figter

And it is surprising that air defense is also part of the Ground Forces, that anti-aircraft missile and anti-aircraft missile and artillery units are part of and attached to motorized rifle units and formations.

Why should I be surprised? I know it.

You will probably be surprised, but most of the time I served in such units as part of motorized rifle formations.

But this is just in doubt.

And you will probably also be surprised that in military schools air defense is taught general tactics, fire training along with special.

Yeah, surprising. For I did not study the general tactics, but the tactics of the armed forces, and not alongside them, but first of all, as well as not the special tactics, but the tactics of the Air Force and, in particular, the tactics of AA.

Probably upsetting the moment that many air defense experts commanded platoons and fire support batteries in hot spots and know what infantry is firsthand.

Why? I know that personally. Like the fact that both in the case of Afghanistan and Chechnya, the personnel of the military air defense forces, for obvious reasons, were engaged in non-6 direct duties.

[figter]

Quote: shuravi

There are two points:
1. Making such statements (I’ve finished) you need to be ready to give evidence that otherwise you will get a blah blah.
2. For the sake of curiosity, I looked at your publication.
https://topwar.ru/48266-voprosy-optimizacii-organ
izacionno-shtatnoy-struktury-obschevoyskovyh-podr
azdeleniy.html
I marveled. No, not to the fact that an air defense specialist suddenly took up the discourse on the staff structure of the ground forces. This is just normal, every graduate must have knowledge in this area.
The fact is that I will not even say that she is illiterate, she is none. Complete lack of understanding of the subject matter.

You see what habits you have ... Instead of a reasoned discussion, from which I don’t shy away at all, you climb into the "personal account", look through the "personal data". "track record", feeling from the inside, trying to wreak havoc with challenging statements ... Do not reveal yourself on trifles.
I did not look at your data, did not read it, because I’m just not interested in it, in fact, like your personal opinion.

[shuravi]

Quote: figter

You look what habits you have ... Instead of a reasoned discussion, from which I do not shy away from anything, you climb into your "personal account" and look through "personal data". "track record", you feel from the inside, trying to infuriate yourself with defiant statements ...

What do you want? When a character begins to yak unprovenly, how can you not see what he is. There is no preparation here.

Do not reveal yourself on trifles.

Yes, I’m just not hiding my person.

I did not look at your data, did not read it, because I’m just not interested in it, in fact, like your personal opinion.

That's what you think of me there, I'm really not interested. The important thing is that you are clearly not the one you are trying to impersonate.

[Voenoboz]

We are not against 50 and 60 km, but it would be good at 65.

[tinsue]

As for the questions - why shoot down at 60km if the locator is at 40? The problem is solved by connecting to a common radar. It is also naive to think that developments to increase detection are also not underway.

It would be nice to shoot down drones and drones.
Such functions have already been developed in the Shell (see 44 minutes for “nails”) -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcaFq2ZpYYI&i
ndex=6&t=0s&list=PL2zbO1Ks2ovzJeHlDnnXJhL
QraVeI_yx-

Why do you need to shoot down at 40 or 60 km? 20 there is enough - develop other protection systems ...
Not quite like that - some air-to-surface missiles for both airplanes and helicopters (!) Have a range of over 20 km (for example, Spike NLOS - 25 km, AGM-65 Maverick - more than 22 km, Nimrod - up to 36 km). This allows you to hit the Shell with cheaper means in a mass attack. For this, it is necessary to develop a range ... I also did not say anything about air bombs - for example, JDAM-ER, etc.

[kerosene]

The journalist confused everything. The detection range is 60 km, and the launch range is up to 40 km.

[bratchanin3]

It is not clear why a small rocket will accelerate to 8-10 max in a short period of time?

[tinsue]

It's true. Looks like a duck. Hypersonic surround is used for critical purposes. You can not put it into use, or the dashing American guys can spy such a rocket to develop their hypersonic weapons. Not long ago, the Military Reception program was released with the contours of their hypersonic missile. It was fun to watch - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k448KRqDat0

[SERVER]

And on October 26, 2017, combat launches of upgraded Polonaise missiles were successfully carried out in the Gomel region.

As the director of the Precision Electromechanics Plant, the general of the reserve, Anatoly Vankovich, who directed the firing, said at the time, this unique weapon allows you to hit targets at a distance of 300 km. The upgraded rocket flies along the route at an altitude of about 50 km, dives toward the target almost vertically, has a speed of about 5 Mach, and is resistant to interference. There are no air defense / missile defense systems capable of hitting it today.
And who will say ... is it possible to bring down a POLONEZ ??

[askme]

Of course it is possible, but not with Western complexes. The S-500 is specifically designed to intercept hypersonic targets maneuvering in the upper stratosphere. For this, special missiles are created in which for maneuvering in conditions of approx. 1 / 100-1 / 1000 of the atmospheric density at sea level (at altitudes of 30-50 or more km), gas-dynamic methods of controlling an interceptor missile are used. So far there are no such opponents.

[tinsue]

It is hard to say. Depends on the trajectory and to a slightly lesser extent on speed.

Theoretically, the Medium Extended Air Defense System with PAC-3 can bring down Polonaise. MEADS has a similar purpose with the S-400 including anti-ballistic. American air defense shoots up to 35km in height (RIM-174 Standard ERAM). The MGM-140 ATACMS has similar characteristics to the Polonaise and is currently developing a missile with a radius of up to 500 km. I don’t know what PAAC-4 will be, but probably new developments that pose a threat will be taken into account.

It is more difficult with Iskander - the trajectory is unpredictable.

[SETTGF]

Generally surprising! Especially the flight altitude of MLRS missiles ?! In view of the fact that there is no exact and necessary data on this system on the Internet, then this is not a MLRS system, but tactical ballistic missiles on a common launcher in containers and no more ... and these missiles are not hypersonic - judging by their dimensions on Photo! These targets are easily confused by the S-400 anti-aircraft missile system, which already includes a new long-range missile with an intercept height of 185 km according to the American general, although the S-500 anti-aircraft complex, which is already located in production ... Apparently he will have long-range missiles with even greater range and interceptors in space ...

[SETTGF]

I wanted to note! Since there are no data on Polonaise missiles, for now we will consider them hypersonic in the final section of the path! But then there is an opportunity to bring them down ?!

[Xscorpion]

Quote: groks

probability of hitting a target

With an increase in the speed of the rocket, this parameter will decrease.

Now they use solid fuel, ordinary RDX-based nitroglycerin gunpowder

This will be one of the options plastid. Horrroshoe fuel!

Do you think solid-fuel air defense missiles fly on coal? If you do not know the composition of rocket fuel, then why such stupid comments? And for reference, in PVV not phlegmatizers containing oxygen oxide, as in rocket fuel, but plasticizers, whose role in fact only give explosive plasticity.