Military Review

"And there was a great battle and a sore evil ..."

186
"And there was a great battle and a sore evil ..."



Church writers of the XIII century called the Mongol-Tatar invasion the punishment of God for the internecine wars of the Russian princes.

At the same time, a number of historians believe that the Mongol yoke contributed to the consolidation of the Russian principalities. But the process of unification of the principalities was far from peaceful, bloody civil strife occurred during the Mongol-Tatar yoke. History rivalry between Moscow and Tver, especially Yuri Danilovich, Prince of Moscow and Mikhail Yaroslavich, Prince of Tver is a clear confirmation of this.

The struggle between them was fought for the fiefdoms of Pereslavl-Zalessky, Kostroma, Gorodets, Nizhny Novgorod, for influence in Novgorod. In the 1305 year, in the Horde, Mikhail Tverskoy managed to kill the price of Moscow Prince Yuri, who also participated in the auction for the sale of the label for a great reign, and received it.

Returning to Russia, he went with the army to Moscow, but failed to take it. In the second campaign in 1308, Mikhail “did a lot of evil,” but he also did not take the city.

After re-receiving a label from 1315 from the new Khan Uzbek, Mikhail went along with the Tatars to Novgorod, who decided to abandon Michael and invited Yuri Danilovich to reign. Together with the Tatars, Mikhail defeated the Novgorodians, "who have lost many good husbands, boyars and merchants, and suffered a complete defeat."

Yuri, the prince of Moscow at that time was in the Horde, here he intermarried with Khan, marrying his sister Konchaka, who was baptized. The shed, the Golden Horde capital, was the center of the Sarai diocese, there was already a half century of the episcopal chair, which at that time was headed by Bishop Varsonofy, probably he baptized Khan's sister with the name Agafya.

The ruler of the Horde, Uzbek, although it ascended the throne of the Horde with the help of pro-Islamic forces, Islam adopted seven years later. Therefore, in this matter he was also guided by the prescriptions of the indifferent Yasa of Genghis Khan. To strengthen his influence in Russia, he chose this method - he married his sister to the Prince of Moscow, and the prince handed him a label for reigning in Vladimir.

Upon his return from the Horde, Yuri Danilovich decided to restore the lost positions and immediately moved his army against Mikhail Yaroslavich. The prince of Tver was accompanied by the army of the Mongol temnik Kavgadiya, detachments of Khiva and Mordovians. Foreigners, as Kostomarov writes, "having entered the land of Tver ... indiscriminately burned every dwelling that fell in the way, and tortured people with different torments, which they seized in their hands."

Mikhail Tverskaya, learning about the approach of the enemy, spoke out against the combined forces of Muscovites and Tatars. 22 December 1317, the battle of Borteneva took place. The Tverchanians emerged victorious from it, the young wife of the Moscow Prince Konchak and his brother Boris were taken prisoner. Yuri Danilovich managed to slip away to Novgorod, and the next day Kavgadi himself surrendered.

The situation had to be explained to the khan, and Yuri together with the Novgorodians, the princes of Suzdal-Rostov land, the boyars from Russian cities left for Orda, where they brought a number of accusations against Mikhail Tverskoy, including the charge of killing the sister of Khan, who died in captivity. There is an assumption that Michael's opponents poisoned her.

Mikhail Yaroslavich was summoned to the Khan's bid for proceedings. The prince understood that a trip there amounted to death. But still I went, because he knew very well that the refusal would lead to the next raid of nomads and the ruin of the principality of Tver. After the unfair Khan's trial, Mikhail Tverskoy was slain. The prince was killed beyond the Terek, at the pass, later called Krestov, during the campaign of Uzbeks in Persia.

At the cost of his own life, Prince Mikhail saved the lives of thousands of Russian people, he died a worthy Christian death. Two centuries later, the Russian Church canonized Michael of Tver as a saint.

In the confrontation between Tver and Moscow, in the end, the latter won, but Yuri Danilovich’s methods of strengthening power and elevating Moscow cannot evoke either understanding or justification.
Author:
Originator:
http://rusplt.ru/wins/byila-bitva-velikaya-28942.html
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  1. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah 31 December 2017 06: 25
    15
    Since not in memorable times, we have been bearing the burden of lessons that have not been learned. We don’t even need the enemy, we will destroy ourselves. Until now.
    1. Vard
      Vard 31 December 2017 08: 06
      10
      We are trying to judge those cases of bygone days from modern positions ... Then there were other concepts of morality ... On the other hand, if you participated in office wars ... You will accept that since then the concepts of good and evil have changed little ...
      1. 97110
        97110 31 December 2017 13: 33
        +7
        Quote: Vard
        Then there were other concepts of morality
        Thank you, I saw the answer to the author’s pure cleverness:
        but the methods of Yuri Danilovich to strengthen power and the rise of Moscow can cause neither understanding nor justification.
        I thought how to answer this follower of the notorious Zhenya Ssaki and others like her, I almost broke my head. That is, even in today's times, no one is going to "repent and pay," but is going to beat off the horns of anyone who is trying to infringe on Russian interests in their own, Russophobic favor. Why did Danilych have to be holier than all his peers in status? The author did not give examples, whose methods from contemporaries of Yuri Danilovich, and other Moscow princes, were impeccable from his point of view of a resident of the 21st century? Is it because there are no examples? Or against the background of contemporaries Danilych looks excellent military and political? What is the bad Yuri Danilovich surpassed the meek (or bloody?) Nikolai Alexandovich? Didn’t the innocent raven kill from pure idleness?
      2. KaPToC
        KaPToC 2 January 2018 22: 02
        +2
        Quote: Vard
        Then there were other concepts about morality ....

        "True Christian" Michael killed the sister of the khan, and when he was called to answer, he asked in surprise:
        "And for what?"
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma 5 January 2018 06: 34
          +3
          Quote: KaPToC
          "And for what?"

          In 1305, in the Horde, Mikhail Tverskoy managed to outbid the price of Moscow Prince Yuri, who also participated in the auction selling the label for the great reign, and received it.
          Returning to Russia, he went with the army to Moscow, but failed to take it. In the second trip in 1308, Mikhail “did a lot of evil”, but he didn’t take the city either.

          In the confrontation between Tver and Moscow, in the end the latter won, but methods of Yuri Danilovich to strengthen power and the rise of Moscow cannot cause either understanding or excuse.

          By the "order" of whom the annals were written, he is right (((
          Many hundreds of years later, on the VO site
          “And there was a great battle and a bad battle ...” Author: Kirill Bragin
          concludes: "he is good because" -
          Two centuries later, the Russian Church will rank Mikhail of Tver as a saint.

          Yuri is accused of a "protatar" policy and rapprochement with the Tatars, but -
          In 1315, Khan according to the complaints of Mikhail Yaroslavich summoned Yuri Danilovich to the Horde. In 1316 he went to the khan and, having been in the Horde for 2 years, managed to enter the mercy of the khan.
          i.e. until the death of Michael in 1318 ...
          EPILOG belay
          Yuri Danilovich
          In 1325, with confession, he went to the Horde to the Khan's court. At the same time, the young Tver prince Dmitry Mikhailovich came to Horde with him, who was nicknamed the Terrible Ochi people for his steep temper (he was the son of the executed Mikhail of Tver). Without waiting for the trial, right at the entrance to the khan’s tent, Dmitry Mikhailovich killed Danilovich with his sword on November 21, 1325 as the direct culprit of the terrible martyrdom of his father.
          After some time, Dmitry "Terrible Eyes" was killed by order of the Khan.

          Conclusion: Country (principalities) under external controlput by the manager of the manager (puppets) they take their “cake” and want to bite off the neighbor’s - in such a “struggle” all means are good (judging by the moral of that time).
    2. ando_bor
      ando_bor 31 December 2017 10: 57
      +5
      Quote: Mar. Tira
      We don’t need the enemy either, we will destroy ourselves. Until now.

      But they didn’t destroy it, it means the system works fine, it’s efficient, on the contrary, ineffective ones are destroyed - it’s a law of nature, like it or not.
      1. figwam
        figwam 31 December 2017 12: 13
        +3
        Church writers of the XIII century called the Mongol-Tatar invasion the punishment of God for the internecine wars of the Russian princes.

        There was no Tatar-Mongol yoke; it was a civil war in the former Tartaria.
        1. Dzungar
          Dzungar 1 January 2018 17: 50
          +2
          In a civil war, great nations DO NOT BORN .... Nobody attacked Russia to believe in Russia. Exclusively cut among themselves
        2. KaPToC
          KaPToC 2 January 2018 22: 06
          0
          Quote: figvam
          There was no Tatar-Mongol yoke; it was a civil war in the former Tartaria.

          As the ancient united state was called, the issue is debatable, but the fact that, contrary to the nonsense of historians, states are not united, but fragmented, is a fact.
        3. Sasha333
          Sasha333 4 January 2018 09: 21
          +2
          I completely agree, but from here the article is about nothing. All fiction. How long will we study Miller and Schlötzer. By the way, Mavro Arbini does not know such a little book as "The Tale of Bygone Years" He was in Russia before his baptism and was surprised what kind people there are, they live much better than in Europe. The only thing that shocked him was the bathhouse.
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 4 January 2018 19: 27
            +1
            Quote: Sasha333
            By the way, Mavro Arbini does not know such a book as "The Tale of Bygone Years"

            Mavro Arbini had no idea about modern archeology, either about the radiocarbon method, and about quantum mechanics, and about general relativity ... He, even about Newton’s laws, couldn’t have the slightest idea (because he managed, for some reason, 28 years before the birth of Isaac, our ... laughing ) But you never know what he didn’t know! But his "Slavic kingdom" is the truth, in the last resort and tears the branch of TOREGs, like a Tuzik heating pad !!! Really Alexander? lol
            PS And the Neanderthals, stsuki, did not even know the bronze !!! => Iron doesn't exist? Checkmate, metallurgists ??? laughing
            PPS Stop smoking, Sanya! laughing
            1. Sasha333
              Sasha333 6 January 2018 08: 20
              0
              You’re probably talking some kind of nonsense. And I’m your son, not Sanya, I’m 52 g. I didn’t make a typo, not Mavro Orbini, but the monk Velizari visited Russia. But about the "Tale of Bygone Years" everything is correct. And here is quantum mechanics. I mean that many historians refer to this story, and it is fake.
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. Hantengri
            Hantengri 4 January 2018 21: 04
            +3
            Quote: Sasha333
            He was in Russia before baptism and wondered what kind people there are, how they live much better than in Europe. The only thing that shocked him was the bathhouse.

            Amazingly! Mavro Orbini - 1550-1614 A.D. !!! Baptism of Rus - 988 AD !!! You, Sasha, yourself, in your statement, aren't shocking anything, except for the bath, of course ?! lol
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 4 January 2018 23: 09
              0
              Quote: HanTengri
              Baptism of Rus - 988 AD !!!

              The usual lie of historians. In fact, we have no evidence that the baptism of Rus did exist at all and whether the Orthodox faith was the original, primary for the Russians.
              After all, the church split took place already in the seventeenth century, it was then that Christians divided into Orthodox - artodoxes - adherents of the old, traditional faith and others - new, separated - including Catholics - and, in simple terms, sectarians.
    3. Dzungar
      Dzungar 1 January 2018 17: 45
      +3
      Especially fables about the "great art empire of the ancient Rus" .....
      1. figwam
        figwam 2 January 2018 00: 43
        0
        Dzungar

        Listen to the person who has more information than you.
        1. Yarik
          Yarik 3 January 2018 13: 39
          +1
          Ramsey beguiled ..... Fomenko reads before going to bed? wassat
        2. Dzungar
          Dzungar 4 January 2018 00: 17
          +3
          I understand that you have problems comprehending what you read, but I tell you again IN THE CIVIL WAR, THE GREAT PEOPLES ARE NOT BORN ... Putin’s words that there were Russians on this and that side (Prince Ryazan, who never participated in battle) and the Tatars (small Tatars, from the side opposing the Mamai’s tempor in the internal Horde strife) - these DO NOT refute my words. It doesn’t matter which small units were part of what, but THAT the Battle of Kulikovo was not an episode of the Civil War, but the first major victorious battle between Slavic Orthodox Russia and the Turkic Muslim Horde ....
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 4 January 2018 03: 29
            +3
            You really want to think so. In reality, the place of the battle has not yet been found, the result of this victory is insignificant (which cannot be explained at all). The battle is more like a fake.
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 5 January 2018 16: 16
              0
              You confuse uncle ... You do not answer me. And to this Figwam who posted this video with the highest opinion. I just answered him
          2. Sasha333
            Sasha333 4 January 2018 09: 39
            +2
            For 7526 years, we fought with the Dzungars (modern China) and won. As I understand it, you are not a Slav, so why do you climb into our history, I do not climb into your people. There was no yoke. Sorry, but you were a poorly developed people. In order to forge the same sword, specialists are needed. Did you forge them in yurts? Artisans are cities. In the same Mongolia, and now not a lot.
            1. Dalailama
              Dalailama 4 January 2018 10: 05
              0
              The Sarmatians, like the Japanese, are completely in yurts, but in general, Russia was defeated by the Mongols by the Mongolian onions and Chinese siege equipment. Metal is not needed anywhere.
              1. Sasha333
                Sasha333 4 January 2018 13: 12
                0
                Yes, but where are the records of the Mongol, where is the giving. A good sword chopped a rider to a horse. If you didn’t know what metal they had, what was there with us. You saw the movie "Gladiator" what kind of technique is there, so we "barbarians" punished them for debauchery. They dig Rome, and there are Slavic runes, and in Siberia who built megaliths, ancient drogues that stretch for hundreds of kilometers. And it’s a swastika all over the world, we are the head of Rus. But this does not mean that we should oppress others. Our mission -
                keep balance on the ground.
                1. Dalailama
                  Dalailama 4 January 2018 18: 29
                  0
                  About what? A good bow and fast horses before a contact fight never brought Paul to Kulikov, then the steppe residents simply slaughtered the wounded and took everything they liked from them. Long before the attack on Russia, the Horde began to make weapons for the Horde from other nations, then the Russians.
                  After the Han was defeated 7500+ years ago, and they, according to the conditions of the world, built a wall with loopholes for themselves over 250 years, the climate changed and the whites were forced to leave Siberia.
                  1. Dzungar
                    Dzungar 5 January 2018 16: 07
                    0
                    On the Kulikovo field, the Mongols HAS NOT BEEN. There were Turks with whom the Russians fought and centuries before, who also converted to Islam ... A small part of the Mongols among them assimilated a hundred years before this battle
                    1. Dalailama
                      Dalailama 6 January 2018 00: 10
                      0
                      The Mongols did not assimilate with anyone. Mamai was not from the Mongols and, in general, after the campaign he was killed by non-Muslim Crimean netatars. The battle itself took place because Mamai went to abolish the subject administrative division of Russia and introduce direct rule. Prior to this, there was only fiscal supervision of the Baskaks for accounting for cash and payment of tribute from them.
                      1. Dzungar
                        Dzungar 6 January 2018 10: 41
                        0
                        You want to say that those few Mongols who came with Batu Khan and before the Battle of Kulikovo did not mix with anyone and remained purebred .... ??? And all the descendants of Batu Khan are pure Mongols ... ??? Everything has been clear about Mamaia for a long time - he was not a Mongol, much less a Genghiside
                    2. Dalailama
                      Dalailama 6 January 2018 17: 12
                      0
                      The descendants of Batu are not quoted. Those who did not assimilate were on their own or with Tokhtamysh.
                      1. Dzungar
                        Dzungar 6 January 2018 17: 40
                        0
                        The descendants of Batu are not quoted - is it like ...? In and of itself, it's like ...? We hung out with a small bunch, nobody touched them, they didn’t bother anyone, didn’t get married, didn’t get married ....?
                    3. Dalailama
                      Dalailama 6 January 2018 18: 10
                      0
                      Baty transvestite really was.
                2. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 4 January 2018 20: 03
                  0
                  Quote: Sasha333
                  Yes, but where are the records of the Mongol, where is the giving.

                  “The Secret Legend of the Mongols” - “Mongolyn Nuutz Tovchoo”. Written in Chinese characters, in Mongolian. Arranged?
                  1. Dalailama
                    Dalailama 4 January 2018 21: 39
                    +2
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    Written in Chinese characters, in Mongolian.

                    You can’t mock so much.
                  2. co-creator
                    co-creator 5 January 2018 03: 35
                    +2
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    “The Secret Legend of the Mongols” - “Mongolyn Nuutz Tovchoo”. Written in Chinese characters, in Mongolian. Arranged?

                    What age?
                    1. KaPToC
                      KaPToC 5 January 2018 07: 52
                      +1
                      Quotation: blooded man
                      What age?

                      Nineteenth of course, more ancient "originals" do not exist in nature.
                      1. Dalailama
                        Dalailama 6 January 2018 00: 12
                        0
                        Because it was verbal and secret, not for the ears of others.
                        The writing among the Mongols was see "Mongolian writing," "Uyghur writing." Chinese characters are partially borrowed only in Japan.
              2. Hantengri
                Hantengri 4 January 2018 19: 48
                +2
                Quote: DalaiLama
                Russia was defeated by the Mongols by the Mongolian onions and Chinese siege equipment. Metal is not needed anywhere.

                Well ... Armor, weapons, arrowheads and, most importantly, forged parts of siege weapons. But, all this, it was possible to first buy / trade, and then, having captured the masters and the production base, to produce.
                1. Dalailama
                  Dalailama 4 January 2018 19: 58
                  0
                  Leather armor, silicon or bone tips. Most of the siege weapons can be made without metal, they were made on the spot.
                  1. Hantengri
                    Hantengri 4 January 2018 20: 38
                    +2
                    Quote: DalaiLama
                    Leather armor

                    Rather (a poor archer) - tegilay. Those who are more successful "fit into the market",
                    could buy yourself something more decent. They didn’t live in a vacuum!
                    Quote: DalaiLama
                    silicon or bone tips

                    Against the Chinese, who knew both chain mail, and lamellar armor would not fail! And the Chinese are they ... And, yes - were the sabers also bone? laughing
                    Quote: DalaiLama
                    Most of the siege weapons can be made without metal, they were made on the spot.

                    Well yes! You can connect two logs and build a ram, right, on the spot .... For the rest, engineers and a coffer are needed. Than Genghis Khan, with the lads, in China and bought a meal.
                    1. Dalailama
                      Dalailama 4 January 2018 21: 36
                      0
                      "Decently" was heavier. The cavalry then lost mobility.
                      Everything bounced even in Lithuania with bows weaker, unless the armor was damask.
                      For all the rest, oxen veins and melted human fat were usually suitable.
                      1. Hantengri
                        Hantengri 4 January 2018 22: 51
                        0
                        Quote: DalaiLama
                        "Decently" was heavier. The cavalry then lost mobility.

                        Because of which? Because of + 7-10 kg of chain mail or 10 -15 kg of lamellar?
                        Quote: DalaiLama
                        Everything bounced even in Lithuania with bows weaker, unless the armor was damask.

                        Of bulat, armor, in general, was never made. For it is expensive and, according to its properties, stupid. Neither bone nor silicon tip is able to break through chain mail (not even red-hot) + quilted under-arm. What makes you think that Litvin, in the Middle Ages, lived in the Stone Age?
                        Quote: DalaiLama
                        For all the rest, oxen veins and melted human fat were usually suitable.

                        For what, for example? For trebuchet?

                        laughing
                    2. Dalailama
                      Dalailama 5 January 2018 00: 05
                      0
                      Yes, their horses were not tall anyway.
                      In Russia they did. Maybe if the arrow is heavy. Since it was with Lithuania.
                      Trebuchet appeared later.
                  2. KaPToC
                    KaPToC 4 January 2018 23: 13
                    +1
                    Quote: DalaiLama
                    Most of the siege weapons can be made without metal, they were made on the spot.

                    In more detail, please, what kind of siege weapons are these miracles?
                    1. Dalailama
                      Dalailama 5 January 2018 00: 07
                      0
                      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Осадные_орудия
                      1. KaPToC
                        KaPToC 5 January 2018 00: 22
                        +1
                        Quote: DalaiLama
                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Осадные_орудия

                        Most of them are simply invented by historians, all but cannons and rams.
                    2. Dalailama
                      Dalailama 5 January 2018 02: 12
                      0
                      You still forgot about digging.
              3. Dzungar
                Dzungar 5 January 2018 16: 11
                +2
                This boy draws his knowledge of history in Hollywood feature films. He most likely believes that it was the West that replaced history with him, and at the same time he watches a movie of the West and unconditionally believes and accepts it for historical truth. Let's pity him, and we won’t argue with the child
                1. Dalailama
                  Dalailama 6 January 2018 00: 14
                  0
                  In fact, he has everything except the yoke.
            2. Dzungar
              Dzungar 5 January 2018 16: 03
              0
              Your petty-chauvinistic attempts very well characterize you as something problematic for yourself and your people and unworthy of my attention. And the identification of the Dzungars with the Chinese generally puts an end to it, as a stupid statement, unworthy of at least a little bit self-respecting person. It would be foolish for me to communicate with someone who HAS NO KNOWLEDGE IN HISTORY and suffers from chauvinism ..... I do not need to answer. I will not read and answer too
          3. Serg koma
            Serg koma 5 January 2018 07: 14
            +1
            Quote: Dzungar
            and Turkic Muslim Horde ....

            Islam in the horde was introduced "from above" and not quite smoothly.
            The adoption of Islam as a state religion. Finally, at the beginning of the 1312th century, the Muslim community among the Tatar aristocracy grew so strong that it not only enthroned its protege - Khan Uzbek (1342-1312), but also decisively broke with the previous religious and political traditions. This event occurred in late 1313 - early XNUMX.

            Khan Uzbek in 1320 (1321) officially accepted Islam from the descendant of Bab Arslan Zangi-Ata and his successor Seyid-Ata. Bab Arslan was the mentor of Ahmed Yasavi, a major Sufi, an ideologist among the Turkic tribes.

            So in 1380, the horde, among its supporters present on the battlefield, can in no way be called "Muslim", as well as the opposite side of the "Orthodox".
            Do not hang high-flown ideological labels -
            Quote: Dzungar
            battle between the Slavic Orthodox Russia and the Turkic Muslim Horde....
            otherwise you will have to list (for objectivity) all faiths and pagan gods in addition laughing
            The struggle for spheres of influence - like everything else in this world to this day.
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 5 January 2018 16: 14
              +1
              Quote: Serg Koma
              Do not hang high-flown ideological labels -
              Quote: Dzungar
              the battle between Slavic Orthodox Russia and the Turkic Muslim Horde ....
              otherwise you will have to list (for objectivity) all faiths and pagan gods in addition

              Russia then could not be called Orthodox ... ???? And then what ..? Pagan ..? Catholic ...? You seem to be talking ....
              1. Serg koma
                Serg koma 5 January 2018 21: 17
                0
                Do not distort !!!
                Quote: Dzungar
                Quote: Dzungar
                battle between Slavic Orthodox Russia and the Turkic Muslim Horde ....

                It's about the Battle of Kulikovo.
                Quote: Serg Koma
                So in 1380 a horde, among those present on the battlefield its supporters, can not be called Muslimlike the opposite side "Orthodox" .

                Who was on the side of Mamaia? Who was on the side of Donskoy? ON CONFESSIONS! But only after that peremptorily, pompously declare!
                Repeat the story of the 5th grade for a start, and then be clever, otherwise you already have conspiracies ("speak up" laughing ) seem.
                1. Dzungar
                  Dzungar 6 January 2018 10: 45
                  0
                  Quote: Serg Koma
                  Who was on the side of Mamaia? Who was on the side of Donskoy? ON CONFESSIONS! But only after that peremptorily, pompously declare!

                  And who was on the side of the Don ...? And the predominant number of denominations ..? And who was on the side of Mamaia? And the prevailing number of denominations ...? ATTENTION TO ALL !!! Your Answer...
                  1. Serg koma
                    Serg koma 6 January 2018 12: 41
                    +1
                    Quote: Dzungar
                    ATTENTION TO ALL !!! Your Answer...

                    Sit in a lap, you can’t live without a clue? laughing
                    “With all the princes of Ordinsk and with all the power of the Tatarsky and Polovtsian. Most of all, we came to see many rats: the Bessermen and Armenians, the Fryag and Cherkasy and Burtasy, and the prince was great together with the great princes of Lithuania and Yagailo Olgerdovich with all the power of Lithuania and Lyatsk, and the same with them ... ".

                    Now the homework is according to CONFESSIONS, at least sort those listed !!!
                    PS By the way, if you look at the etymology of your nickname (do you know?), A lot will fall into place in the historical context of religious faiths according to national, territorial and clan affiliations.
                    1. Dzungar
                      Dzungar 6 January 2018 17: 30
                      0
                      Everyone knows that neither the Lithuanian princes in the battle, nor Oleg Ryazansky participated in the battle ... The mere mention of the Friars, Burtases, Armenians and Bessermens DOES NOT SPEAK ABOUT THEIR QUANTITY AND CONFESSIONAL ACCESSORIES ... There remains one more less understandable - TATAR AND POLOVETSK who they are by ethnicity and denomination, after several decades of adoption of Islam - is understandable. As it is clear that they were the main force ...... Sit down - 2 ....
                    2. Dzungar
                      Dzungar 6 January 2018 17: 35
                      0
                      Well, well. Well ...! Tell me about the etymology of my nickname ......? And then there was one very mentally limited one - clinging to the letters JJ tried to tell me that this is directly related to the Jews, drawing an analogy with Dzhugashvili, and that he is therefore supposedly a Jew .... You also want to tell me this ... ? And you are not that unhappy ...?
                    3. Dzungar
                      Dzungar 6 January 2018 17: 46
                      0
                      Quote: Serg Koma
                      Now the homework is according to CONFESSIONS, at least sort those listed !!!

                      It is you who claim that they were present there, and were different ... Therefore BE GOOD - BY YOURSELF UNDERSTAND WHO THEY WERE BY denominations. At the same time, tell me how much they were on the Kulikovo field
                      1. Serg koma
                        Serg koma 6 January 2018 18: 58
                        0
                        The text has flown .... crying
                        Summary:
                        1. DO NOT ANCERATE (I ask you once again.) And do not spin like in a frying pan
                        Quote: Serg Koma
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        the battle between Slavic Orthodox Russia and the Turkic Muslim Horde ....

                        So prove that only Muslims and Orthodox, Slavs and Turks fought.
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        That you claim that they were present there, and were different

                        This is not claimed by me, but by a chronicle. Unlike you, I don’t unsubscribe by statements like: "I said, then it was like that."
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        Everyone knows that neither the Lithuanian princes in the battle, nor Oleg Ryazansky participated in the battle ...

                        ALL ??? And in more detail, where did you divide them to where you sent?
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        The mere mention of the Friars, Burtases, Armenians and Bessermens DOES NOT TALK ABOUT THEIR QUANTITY AND CONFESSIONAL ACCESSORIES ... There remains one more less understandable - TATAR AND POLOVETSK,

                        Normally, you were discouraged, some were sent to the reserve, others do not consider people wassat Tatar, Polovtsian, but forgotten the "Mongol"? Or do you think only those who are beneficial to you?
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        Tell me about the etymology of my nickname ......?
                        You know - share your knowledge with society. After all, you probably studied before you “hang” on yourself, or is it a sonorous word?
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        You want to tell me this too ...? And you are not that unhappy ...?
                        If you assume something, then at least have common sense, but you don’t need to grind a lot of nonsense.
                    4. Dzungar
                      Dzungar 7 January 2018 20: 11
                      0
                      What have you done there that I can’t answer you exactly to this post of yours ...?
                      I click on “reply”, but for some reason I’m starting to write a new message .... You don’t want me to answer you ...? I’ll answer here ....
                      Quote: Serg Koma
                      Quote: Dzungar
                      Tell me about the etymology of my nickname ......?
                      You know - share your knowledge with society. After all, you probably studied before you “hang” on yourself, or is it a sonorous word?
                      You apparently are the very one who tried to classify the Dzhungars among the Jews .... You probably would like to repeat it again, but since you were warned in this, you stopped short and asked me to tell you about it ..... I’m from my mother’s blood and my father is a descendant of the Dzungar, and I do not need to study the etymology of this word - I know about this from childhood, with blood. I’m not going to share this with you - you’ll manage, your alleged words about the fact that I really don’t know about the etymology of the words Dzhungar I will skip past how the flood bark of the mongrel passes from behind the fence. Google to help you. He will help you in finding information about where Oleg Ryazansky and Olgerdovichi were at the time of the Kulikovo battle. Since I do not consider it necessary to prove that EVERYONE IS KNOWN, only for some reason it is not for you ... All the rest of your petty fuss in opposition I also leave unanswered as insignificant, distracting in vain and unworthy of my answer ....
                      1. Serg koma
                        Serg koma 7 January 2018 22: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        You apparently are the very one who tried to classify the Dzhungars among the Jews .... You probably would like to repeat it again, but since you were warned about this, you stopped short and asked me to tell you about it ....

                        Quote: Serg Koma
                        If you assume something, then at least have common sense, but you don’t need to grind a lot of nonsense.

                        Quote: Dzungar
                        and I no need to study etymology of the word
                        you and not only DO NOT WANT to study it.
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        how missed the barking mongrel mongrel from behind the fence.
                        When there is NO ARGUMENTS you can answer that way - it’s completely in your style.
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        I'm not going to share this with you

                        Blood? Or what did mom and dad tell you? We have one politician, well-known, because he’s generally “son of a lawyer” by nationality, so nothing, he says this from the rostrumlaughing
                        There is no evidence. Everything you piled from the cycle
                        Quote: Serg Koma
                        "I said, so it was."

                        For homework - deuce !!!
                        PS
                        Quote: Dzungar
                        What have you done there that I can’t answer you exactly to this post of yours ...?

                        This is not for me, this is for the moderators.
                        Quote: Serg Koma
                        The text has flown ....
  2. svp67
    svp67 31 December 2017 06: 56
    +7
    In the confrontation between Tver and Moscow, in the end, the latter won, but Yuri Danilovich’s methods of strengthening power and elevating Moscow cannot evoke either understanding or justification.
    And the methods of his vis-a-vi?
    in the Horde, Mikhail Tverskoy managed to outbid the price of Moscow Prince Yuri, who also participated in the auction for the sale of the label for the great reign, and received it.
    Returning to Russia, he went with the army to Moscow, but failed to take it. In the second campaign in 1308, Mikhail “did a lot of evil”, but he also did not take the city

    These two Russian princes "cost" each other ... but Yuri turned out to be more successful and enterprising.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 31 December 2017 07: 37
      +1
      And what is Yuri's luck? Mikhail strengthened his power over Novgorod because Yuri received Novgorod money for bribery in the horde, and methods, Mikhail was the rightful prince, Yuri was not right for a great table because his father died before his older brother and Yuri had a wonderful habit of executing prisoners of the Ryazansky princes and Mozhaysky.
      1. svp67
        svp67 31 December 2017 09: 26
        +6
        Quote: Cartalon
        And what is Yuri's luck?

        At least in the fact that he WINS, and it was his descendants who became the Great Princes and Tsars of Russia
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon 31 December 2017 10: 43
          0
          He had no descendants; he did not defeat anyone.
          1. svp67
            svp67 31 December 2017 11: 04
            +2
            Quote: Cartalon
            he did not defeat anyone.

            What are you saying ...
            In 1321 year Dmitry Tverskoy recognized the power of Yuri Danilovich and gave him the Horde tribute from the whole of the Tver Principality If this is not a victory, then what?
            Quote: Cartalon
            He had no descendants

            Yes, thanks to the ladder system of power transfer in Russia, power passed to his brother -
            Ivane Kalita ...
            1. Cartalon
              Cartalon 31 December 2017 12: 45
              0
              And then this same Dmitriy demolished his head and won a dubious victory.
      2. avt
        avt 31 December 2017 11: 19
        +9
        Quote: Cartalon
        Mikhail was the rightful prince, Yuri was not entitled to a great table because his father died before his older brother

        It was by such a method that Russia was brought to the “Ruin ​​of the Russian Land", and poto-oh-oh ... wrote to the "yoke"
        Quote: Cartalon
        Mikhail strengthened his power over Novgorod because Yuri received Novgorod money for bribes in the horde, and the methods

        “Methods,” unless of course attentively aaaaaaaaaaaa read even THIS article, were pretty much the same as Jura’s.
        In 1305, in the Horde, Mikhail Tverskoy managed to outbid the price of Moscow Prince Yuri, who also participated in the auction selling the label for the great reign, and received it.
        Nothing comes to the brain? Well, what is this future, saint, "interrupted the price of" Such a bad
        but the methods of Yuri Danilovich to strengthen power and the rise of Moscow can cause neither understanding nor justification.
        Type Misha from Tver did not bring with his right hand, like Jura, but with his left? Both are quite two boots of one pair of their time. And the one who survived is right and the principality has increased for posterity. To the author - urgently to a specialized specialist! And then so you have one boot, the "saint" will be, and the second ... bad, well, do not understand the ludy on the street.
        Quote: Cartalon
        Yuri had a wonderful habit of executing captive princes of Ryazan and Mozhaisk.

        Aya-ya-yay! Kakai ... the prince was bad. wassat You just had to gouge out your eyes - the prince all the same. But then what to do not just with the saint - Equal to the Apostles Vladimir! He did soak his brother completely and in Kiev a donkey took his place! Let me guess - but he wasn’t equal to the apostles then ... such an unholiness. bully
        Quote: Cartalon
        He had no descendants; he did not defeat anyone.

        From Tver or just ..... the weather is burdensome? bully Which of them survived then?
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon 31 December 2017 12: 48
          0
          From Yuri, no one was left, in fact, like the rest of the Moscow Rurikovich, the habit of killing relatives does not contribute to the preservation of the clan.
          1. avt
            avt 31 December 2017 14: 32
            +1
            Quote: Cartalon
            From Yuri, no one was left, in fact, like the rest of the Moscow Rurikovich, the habit of killing relatives does not contribute to the preservation of the clan.

            Well, probably Tver herds go. In general, about all this in relation to Equal-to-the-Apostles Vladimir, a brother who whipped, and in Kiev, think about his seat.
          2. Hantengri
            Hantengri 2 January 2018 12: 31
            +3
            Quote: Cartalon
            the habit of killing relatives does not contribute to the preservation of the clan.

            You judge from the perspective of a modern layman. Most often, for any relatives, any medieval ruler - the king, prince, khan, sultan, prince, etc., a close relative is the worst enemy. For he also wants power. And, if you don’t cut it today, on occasion, then tomorrow it will cut you.
            1. Svidetel 45
              Svidetel 45 3 January 2018 22: 48
              +3
              Quite right, this was the typical behavior of those in power in the early Middle Ages, for example, in France during the Merovingian rule, the king of the Francois Dagobert corroded all his relatives who could claim the throne, resorting to an unscrupulous trick - from time to time in public he began to cry that he had no one close to him, that he was lonely, like a stranger in his own country, but as soon as someone even from distant relatives made himself felt, the king quickly organized an “accident”, just in case happening. So judging the actions of Yuri or Mikhail from the point of view of the morality of our days is simply stupid, Christian morality in those days existed in the form of a thin
              lacquer coating, under which life went according to completely different rules and traditions - the one who is stronger is right.
              1. andrew42
                andrew42 28 February 2018 11: 18
                0
                Actually, this is about Clovis and his "search" for surviving relatives. Also, by the way, the baptist was, like our son Volodya Malkin. The baptists, they have such a path, to cleanse relatives from the glory of the Lord.
          3. badens1111
            badens1111 2 January 2018 13: 26
            +2
            Quote: Cartalon
            the habit of killing relatives does not contribute to the preservation of the clan.

            Tell this, for example, to the Turks, who have been established by a state act, the closest relatives of the new Sultan will suffocate without delay. Why, they already explained to you.
            1. andrew42
              andrew42 28 February 2018 11: 20
              0
              And what, the Turks were so good with the rulers? Sultans through one degenerate. Alp-Arslan would be alive, would be cut with shame for posterity.
  3. saigon
    saigon 31 December 2017 07: 15
    +6
    . The Tver prince was accompanied by the army of the Mongolian temnik Kavgadyi, detachments of Khiva and Mordovians. Foreigners, as Kostomarov writes, "having entered the Tver land ... indiscriminately burned any dwelling that got in their way, and tortured people with various torments, whom they seized into their own hands." The quote directly from the article is taken.
    What's this ! Well bloop so bloop!
    Tver army yes on Tver land and so. Well I say
    1. already a Muscovite
      already a Muscovite 31 December 2017 11: 37
      +2
      Kostomarov the same historian ...
    2. co-creator
      co-creator 31 December 2017 17: 05
      +2
      Fomenko writes better.
    3. Dzungar
      Dzungar 1 January 2018 17: 55
      +2
      Most likely it is necessary to read ".... The Prince of Moscow ..." A typo ...
    4. Serg koma
      Serg koma 5 January 2018 07: 24
      +1
      Quote: saigon
      indiscriminately burned any housing that came in the way,

      Personally, I understood this: on the drum there were mercenaries on whose land they are located, on Tver, or Moscow, I liked it - “take it”, don’t give it away - “kill it”, in short, looting in anticipation of a general battle
  4. Dimmih
    Dimmih 31 December 2017 07: 27
    +3
    The princes were biting, and the Mongol Tatars benefited from this. The people suffered. The canonization of princes and rulers in general is a controversial matter, of which the righteous may have been two — Boris and Gleb, their fate is sad.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 31 December 2017 17: 07
      +4
      What benefit did the Mongol Tatars derive? They seemed to saddle the most important trade route - the Volga. Until they were knocked out of there, they benefited.
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 31 December 2017 07: 30
    +3
    In 1319, Yuri Danilovich of Moscow became the Grand Duke, he collected tribute from the Tver Principality for the khan, but did not send to the Horde. Upon learning of this, Mikhail’s son, Dmitry, turned to the khan with a complaint against Yuri in disguising tribute for which he received a label for reign in 1322. And 3 years later he killed Yuri before the khan, for which he himself was executed in the Horde in 1326. ..
  6. igorra
    igorra 31 December 2017 07: 51
    +6
    It is not a matter of who is holier, but the fact that the country has been under oppression for more than half a century, and the princes are fighting for power. Why then did Saint Michael not come to Yuri and the other princes with a unifying word, making concessions, for the sake of his homeland, stepping on his princely ambition? The same can be said of any other prince. The Mongols did one good thing for Russia: they knocked down arrogance from princes and boyars, forcing them to bow, otherwise we would hardly have gone far from the Polish gentry.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 31 December 2017 17: 08
      +2
      Under what oppression can you explain? What bent something?
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC 2 January 2018 22: 10
        0
        Quotation: blooded man
        Under what oppression can you explain? What bent something?

        Well it...
        Church tithe, oh sorry, tribute was collected throughout Russia and brought to the patriarch, sorry, Khan.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 3 January 2018 12: 39
          +2
          Quote: KaPToC
          Church tithe, oh sorry, tribute was collected throughout Russia and brought to the patriarch, sorry, Khan.

          That is, before that they did not collect anything? Well, like the princes fed on the holy spirit.
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC 3 January 2018 17: 42
            0
            Quotation: blooded man
            That is, before that they did not collect anything? Well, like the princes fed on the holy spirit.

            And you do not confuse your coat and state. The princely tax did not abolish church tithe - a tribute.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 3 January 2018 18: 31
              +2
              Quote: KaPToC
              And you do not confuse your coat and state. The princely tax did not abolish church tithe - a tribute.

              In my memory, in the Russian Federation taxes have been raised and lowered many times, new taxes have been introduced and the old ones remained.
              Is it really us Mongols or Americans oppress us in this way?
              1. KaPToC
                KaPToC 3 January 2018 20: 59
                0
                Quotation: blooded man
                In my memory, in the Russian Federation taxes have been raised and lowered many times, new taxes have been introduced and the old ones remained.

                For the gifted, I repeat, since you did not understand the first time - do not confuse taxes with tribute. Taxes, unlike tribute, do not go abroad.
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 4 January 2018 03: 34
                  +2
                  Quote: KaPToC
                  For the gifted, I repeat, since you did not understand the first time - do not confuse taxes with tribute. Taxes, unlike tribute, do not go abroad.

                  For not very gifted. How did tribute pay oppress Russia? For example, Crimea was paid tribute right up to Peter I, and this did not depress anyone.
                  Apparently this tribute was so small that the Russian principalities under the Mughal "yoke" on the contrary got rich.
                  1. KaPToC
                    KaPToC 4 January 2018 11: 27
                    0
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    How did tribute pay oppress Russia?

                    We are not talking about oppression. Church tithe is evil, the Mongol-Tatar yoke is a positive moment in our history, like the Soviet period. Although I do not believe in the conquest of anything by the Mongols, but some events took place.
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 4 January 2018 19: 31
                      +2
                      Quote: KaPToC
                      We are not talking about oppression.

                      Clear
                      Quote: KaPToC
                      Church tithe is evil, the Mongol-Tatar yoke is a positive moment in our history, like the Soviet period.

                      Any tax is evil. but you cannot do without them.
                      The conquest of one race by another cannot be good, so there was no conquest.
                      Quote: KaPToC
                      Although I do not believe in the conquest of anything by the Mongols, but some events took place.

                      The usual feudal era also occurred in the relationship of the steppe and forest.
                      1. KaPToC
                        KaPToC 4 January 2018 23: 04
                        0
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        The conquest of one race by another cannot be good.

                        Incorrect statement, it depends on the moral qualities of the conquerors.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        The usual feudal era also occurred in the relationship of the steppe and forest.

                        Among the Slavic (Indo-European) peoples there were also nomadic tribes.
        2. Svidetel 45
          Svidetel 45 3 January 2018 22: 56
          +1
          But interestingly, the Golden Horde khans collected tithing, and our banks give loans at 15-20% per annum, it turns out they are abruptly khans in relation to the population of Russia, Dmitry Donskoy - AU!
    2. Hantengri
      Hantengri 2 January 2018 12: 05
      +2
      Quote: igorra
      Why then, St. Michael did not come to Yuri and the other princes with a unifying word, having made concessions, for the sake of homelandstepping on your princely ambition?

      For what "homeland"? You are trying to put your modern ideas about modern Russia into the head of a medieval feudal lord. Well, then, the princes did not think in terms of "one and indivisible." More precisely, each of them would not mind collecting all the land under his own hand, having previously done with all this, his impudent relatives, a bad thread ... But the key word here is "EVERYONE" !!! lol And this “each” has its own (“brigade” of scumbags) (crossed out) retinue of forged rati ...
    3. Luga
      Luga 2 January 2018 16: 24
      +1
      Quote: igorra
      Why then did St. Michael not come to Yuri and the other princes with a unifying word, making concessions, for the sake of his homeland, stepping on his princely ambition?

      Mikhail sent an ambassador to Yuri with a proposal for reconciliation, recognized himself as a "younger brother", refused the great reign, and asked only not to touch his principality. Yuri personally killed that ambassador.
  7. Korsar4
    Korsar4 31 December 2017 07: 52
    +3
    Mikhail Tverskoy - was a strong ruler. The princes should not be judged by the standards of our time. We overcame Danilovichi. And in the history of the country at that time still the main role was played by Ivan Kalita.
  8. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 31 December 2017 09: 04
    +3
    Strange yoke what

    Half Russia under the yoke, and the other half Russia - Smolensk, GREAT NOVGOROD, Polotsk, Turov did not even feel it wassat
    Veliky Novgorod, the richest city of the indicated times of the "Mongols" did not even see request They explain that they folded their paws and "paid tribute" voluntarily. Such, they say, then people were laughing
    1. ando_bor
      ando_bor 31 December 2017 11: 05
      +1
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Veliky Novgorod, the richest city of the indicated times of the "Mongols" did not even see

      It should be understood that before the Mongols came to Russia, Mongolia came there, and in Novgorod there was snow even at that time, snow - a white death for the Mongol nomads.
      1. Dalailama
        Dalailama 31 December 2017 12: 07
        +5
        Perhaps that is why they came precisely in the winter.
        1. ando_bor
          ando_bor 31 December 2017 16: 16
          0
          Quote: DalaiLama
          Perhaps that is why they came precisely in the winter.

          Yes, in winter along frozen rivers, the main thing is that there would be no snow. The horse is the basis of Mongolian logistics, and he must find his food, the borders of the conquests of the Mongols - where their horse found food for himself (in that climate, now it is somewhat different). And for the farmer, the lack of snow is starvation. - because of the strife, - even before the Mongols began to cut - to decline - to bring the population in line with deteriorating conditions, and at the same time choose the most effective system and personalities.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 31 December 2017 17: 10
            +2
            That is, in those days there was no snow in Russia, but there was ice. IT'S NOT FUNNY?
            So under the Mongols, on the contrary, the population increased, which then allowed to defeat all the steppes.
          2. andrew42
            andrew42 28 February 2018 11: 31
            0
            "The horse is the basis of Mongolian logistics." Avon how! Logistics WHAT exactly? Logistics is a lot of different. If we are talking about transport logistics, then the Horse is “short-shoulder” logistics, the village is
            fair. The priority mode of transport at all times was the merchant fleet. But as a military tool, yes, the Horse was out of competition.
      2. 97110
        97110 31 December 2017 14: 00
        +4
        Quote: ando_bor
        snow is a white death for the Mongol nomads.

        Yes? Something of a sidekick (originally from the Russian North) with horror remembered the urgent one near Blagoveshchensk (closer to Mongolia than Novgorod the great?) I, born in the south of the Arkhangelsk region, can’t imagine how this wind blows helicopters across the field at -30? The cattle, as far as I remember, is not afraid of snow, but the “jute” described by Russian-speaking writers when an ice crust appears in the snow and cattle cannot hoof snow and get food. Which is much more likely in the steppe than in the taiga.
        1. ando_bor
          ando_bor 31 December 2017 16: 33
          0
          Quote: 97110
          The cattle, as far as I remember, is not afraid of snow, but the “jute” described by Russian-speaking writers when an ice crust appears in the snow and cattle cannot hoof snow and get food.

          Now the climate is different, climate changes have led to the invasion of the Mongols, Mongolia came to Russia, agricultural Russia was in decline, without the Mongols declined - cut.
          And when everything became in place, they returned back to Mongolia - I was in Mongolia - there is no snow there, if it falls a little, it melts before dinner, and sometimes it gets under 30 in frost.
          In general, this is a big question, even the nomads themselves are different, everyone has their own set of cattle and different nomadic technologies, the same Kazakhs they leave the snow, for the Mongols, snow is a white death, - Tsagan Uhel
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 31 December 2017 17: 21
            +2
            Quote: ando_bor
            Now the climate is different, climate changes have led to the invasion of the Mongols,

            Can you justify it somehow?
            Quote: ando_bor
            Mongolia came to Russia, agricultural Russia was in decline, without the Mongols declined - cut.

            That is, the Mongols made up for depopulation correctly?
          2. 97110
            97110 31 December 2017 17: 59
            +1
            Quote: ando_bor
            before dinner, it does not melt, it evaporates in the cold sometimes -30.

            We in the North say: "Snow has frozen out." It happens when spring sunny weather during the day and clear frosty nights.
      3. Dzungar
        Dzungar 1 January 2018 18: 08
        +2
        Quote: ando_bor
        It should be understood that before the Mongols came to Russia, Mongolia came there, and in Novgorod there was snow even at that time, snow - a white death for the Mongol nomads.

        The enchantment of this phrase with a very definite connotation is CHURCHING .......
      4. Hantengri
        Hantengri 2 January 2018 11: 30
        +3
        Quote: ando_bor
        It should be understood that before the Mongols came to Russia, Mongolia came there

        Is that you about climate change? lol The medieval climatic optimum (warming) began in X, and ended in X ||| centuries From the beginning of the X | V century, generally begins a small ice age. So your “Mongolia” came to Russia about 100 years before baptism, and the horses,
        with gazelles, kulans and other cheetahs, for some reason, they did not run across Russian forests! laughing And by the arrival of the Mongol lads, it was already, as it were, completely chilled. Those. with "Mongolia" in Russia was, by then, not very good.
    2. Dalailama
      Dalailama 31 December 2017 12: 11
      +3
      Novgorod paid off, everything else that was not under the Horde became mainly part of Lithuania, and a little Sweden, the Order, Poland, and Hungary.
      History is not being taught at school now, at least some?
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 31 December 2017 12: 46
        +1
        Quote: DalaiLama
        Novgorod paid off

        Did today's academics tell you this? laughing
        Then you can believe in nonsense according to school books hi
        Quote: DalaiLama
        History is not being taught at school now, at least some?
        1. Dalailama
          Dalailama 31 December 2017 13: 37
          +2
          Buy off. Or maybe he headed the Russian "reconquista"? Ushkunikov's return raids do not count.
      2. co-creator
        co-creator 31 December 2017 17: 25
        +3
        Quote: DalaiLama
        Novgorod paid off

        In short, there were cowards. Nobody attacked them, but they already began to pay off. And were there the same cases with them? Well, for example, why wouldn’t they pay off the Livonians?
        Quote: DalaiLama
        it was not under the Horde that it became mainly part of Lithuania, and a little Sweden, the Order, Poland, and Hungary.

        ALL WESTERN PRINCIPLES Horde paid, all without exception.

        Quote: DalaiLama
        History is not being taught at school now, at least some?

        At school, nothing has changed, like fairy tales told and told.
        1. Dalailama
          Dalailama 4 January 2018 18: 22
          0
          Torzhok not belong to Novgorod?
          For the most part, their territories became part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, why pay tribute to him, they defeated the Horde long before Moscow.
  9. Monarchist
    Monarchist 31 December 2017 09: 14
    +1
    Quote: Vard
    We are trying to judge those cases of bygone days from modern positions ... Then there were other concepts of morality ... On the other hand, if you participated in office wars ... You will accept that since then the concepts of good and evil have changed little ...

    I agree with you: the then times and current concepts of good and evil are also comparable as hippos dancing "swan lake". Although even then there were some notions of morality and let's say directly: often the prince deliberately violated moral standards and did not repent
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 31 December 2017 11: 34
      +1
      Why do you think you did not repent? It’s just that everyone has their own cross — their princes, their monks’s.

      At one time lived Sergius of Radonezh, Metropolitan Alexy and Dmitry Donskoy. Everyone has a different path. And in the history of the country intertwined.
  10. moskowit
    moskowit 31 December 2017 09: 51
    +2
    Upon his return from the Horde, Yuri Danilovich decided to restore the lost positions and immediately moved his army against Mikhail Yaroslavich. The prince of Tver was accompanied by the army of the Mongol temnik Kavgadiya, detachments of Khiva and Mordovians. Foreigners, as Kostomarov writes, "having entered the land of Tver ... indiscriminately burned every dwelling that fell in the way, and tortured people with different torments, which they seized in their hands."

    Kavdygaev’s army was given to help Moscow Prince Yuri Danilovich .....
  11. Blue cop
    Blue cop 31 December 2017 10: 10
    18
    Yuri Danilovich elementarily framed Mikhail - a worthy person and leader
    I fully agree with the author
    And Tver was more than a worthy alternative to Moscow
    And Tver Russia would be no worse than Moscow
  12. Olgovich
    Olgovich 31 December 2017 10: 22
    +3
    but the methods of Yuri Danilovich to strengthen power and the rise of Moscow can cause neither understanding nor justification.

    The methods of Mikhail Tversky in two attempts to destroy Moscow, can neither cause understanding nor justification.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 31 December 2017 10: 41
      +1
      The specific prince refused to obey what the grand duke should do?
      1. avt
        avt 31 December 2017 11: 56
        +3
        Quote: Cartalon
        The specific prince refused to obey what the grand duke should do?

        Well, and in the end, "specific" and did, as a result, in practice, proving WHO who, at that time, was Great.
        1. Dalailama
          Dalailama 31 December 2017 12: 12
          0
          one who is more ruthless and mean. But this, of course, was caused by another revolutionary necessity.
          He did not become a saint like Mikhail Tverskoy.
          1. 97110
            97110 31 December 2017 14: 06
            +3
            Quote: DalaiLama
            one who is more ruthless and mean

            You personally do not lead people (did not lead)? Anyway, "do not judge, but you will not be judged."
            1. Dalailama
              Dalailama 31 December 2017 14: 24
              0
              Quote: 97110
              Anyway, "do not judge, but you will not be judged."

              Maybe it’s impossible to glorify Mikhail Tversky?
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 31 December 2017 14: 53
                +1
                The time will come - and in the host of saints are Mikhail Tverskoy, and Mikhail Chernigovsky, and Daniel of Moscow.

                But both Yuri Danilovich and Dmitry the Terrible Eyes are not there.

                And that's not the point. There will be righteous people - and the country will live. And vice versa.
          2. avt
            avt 31 December 2017 14: 35
            +2
            Quote: DalaiLama
            one who is more ruthless and mean. But this, of course, was caused by another revolutionary necessity.
            He did not become a saint like Mikhail Tverskoy.

            bully Well this is decidedly interesting bully This is already an offshoot of the sect of the Tsarebozhiks! Directly local sect of princes! bully
            Quote: DalaiLama
            Maybe it’s impossible to glorify Mikhail Tversky?

            Hallelujah bully
            1. Dalailama
              Dalailama 31 December 2017 14: 41
              0
              Did you not know that Prince Mikhail of Tverskoy is a saint? Campaign is really impossible. And then something else will swing?
    2. Deniska999
      Deniska999 31 December 2017 17: 56
      +1
      And I think we have no right to judge people who lived 700 years ago. They had other ideas about the world, politics and life.
  13. AKC
    AKC 31 December 2017 10: 57
    +1
    Mongol yoke contributed to the unity of Russian principalities I will say even more, the Tatars and rallied the principalities! After all, it was the Tatars who appointed the chief, handing him a label. and who of the princes doubted his authority then had serious problems! and before the Tatar yoke, every prince tried to be in charge! Why did the Tatars need to consolidate the princes by stopping the struggle for power between them?
    no one knows what was in those days! we can’t even figure out the recent past. I don’t understand how you can try on the basis of scarce data. which were censored and edited by the winners, how can any conclusions be drawn?
    when he was interested in the topic of TMI, he spat at everything, but concluded that MIT was not so harmful for Russia. It seems that the war of the Tatars with the princes is an internecine showdown, when one party prevailed over another!
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 31 December 2017 11: 06
      +2
      Quote: AKC
      It seems that the war of the Tatars with the princes is an internecine showdown, when one party prevailed over another!

      So, according to sound logic, this all points out !!!! fellow
      But some foreign invaders are stubbornly imposed request , for admitting the obvious means admitting that you are wrong, and academics will never agree to this. repeat
    2. Cartalon
      Cartalon 31 December 2017 11: 21
      0
      They rallied not so much, the Grand Duke Andrei Alexandrovich already had a predecessor Mikhail in power and did not have how much they reduced the number of princes with the rights of crushing for estates in some principalities stopped.
    3. ando_bor
      ando_bor 31 December 2017 16: 47
      0
      Quote: AKC
      no one knows what was in those days!

      Everything there is clear and understandable, you just need to know the laws of historical development, and based on the facts you can figure it out - propaganda and show-offs are immediately eliminated.
    4. KaPToC
      KaPToC 2 January 2018 22: 16
      +1
      Quote: AKC
      the Mongol yoke contributed to the unity of the Russian principalities even more say, the Tatars and rallied the principalities!

      Mongol-Tatars - an idiotic term coined by historians, why not the Zulu-Japanese or the Papuan-Germans?
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 3 January 2018 12: 41
        +2
        Quote: KaPToC
        Mongol-Tatars - an idiotic term coined by historians, why not the Zulu-Japanese or the Papuan-Germans?

        because not one Russian chronicle has the word MONGOLS, everywhere only MOGOLS. Although for you it does not matter the truth)
        1. KaPToC
          KaPToC 3 January 2018 17: 43
          0
          Quotation: blooded man
          Although for you it does not matter the truth)

          Why do you answer me then, are not sure of your own rightness, a lie?
  14. polpot
    polpot 31 December 2017 11: 49
    +5
    Gentlemen, read Balashov, the author was a good one, and Yuri and Ivan were people who created Russia in which we live, and this is a fact, it is not necessary to judge the actions of people of the 14th century by canons 21, we don’t understand them.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 31 December 2017 11: 53
      +1
      I agree. This series of books is simply a must-read. The first was the Great Table. About 25 years ago - it became a revelation.
    2. Cartalon
      Cartalon 31 December 2017 12: 42
      +1
      Balashov is certainly good, but still fiction.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 31 December 2017 12: 54
        +1
        Yes. And it occupies its niche.
    3. 97110
      97110 31 December 2017 14: 14
      +2
      Quote: polpot
      Lord read Balashov, a good author

      And not only Balashova. I climbed on tyrnet, came across a historical resource. He looked at the horror that was happening in Western Europe in the 7th century. We have at least weather breaks for the war every year for 6 months or more. They have - without interruptions! And before Napoleon, in fact, there are 180 states in late Germany! And these people do not allow us to poke our nose!
  15. Lexus
    Lexus 31 December 2017 12: 48
    +1
    RUSSIA - THE GREAT BOILER OF CIVILIZATIONS. They managed to fight with everyone already.
    On the stall there is an inscription: “BEER only for the participants of the Kulikovo battle”.
    Such an old man comes up and asks the muggy seller:
    -Son, pour some beer?
    - You don’t know how to read - BEER only to the participants of the Battle of Kulikovo!
    - So I'm a member ...
    Is there a help?
    - Son, what kind of reference, so many years have passed ...
    - I don’t know, I don’t know. Tatars bring ...
  16. co-creator
    co-creator 31 December 2017 17: 31
    +2
    Quote: DalaiLama
    one who is more ruthless and mean. But this, of course, was caused by another revolutionary necessity.
    He did not become a saint like Mikhail Tverskoy.

    Holiness is not an indicator. Nikolash destroyed the empire, because of him millions of Russians slaughtered each other and he is a saint.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 31 December 2017 18: 11
      0
      Everyone has their own path to holiness - who is the faithful, and who is the sufferer. The example of the martyrs of Sebastia is very good.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 3 January 2018 12: 45
        +1
        Quote: Korsar4
        Everyone has their own path to holiness - who is the faithful, and who is the sufferer. The example of the martyrs of Sebastia is very good.

        THIS SPEAKS ABOUT that holiness does not say anything.
  17. Dimmih
    Dimmih 1 January 2018 08: 17
    0
    Quotation: blooded man
    What benefit did the Mongol Tatars derive? They seemed to saddle the most important trade route - the Volga. Until they were knocked out of there, they benefited.

    They took tribute from both sides of the conflict.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 5 January 2018 15: 20
      +2
      Quote: Dimmih
      They took tribute from both sides of the conflict.

      Crimean Tatars paid tribute up to Peter I for example, so what?
  18. Captain Nemo
    Captain Nemo 1 January 2018 16: 20
    0
    We angrily condemn the Mongol occupants and their Tver minions !!!
  19. Dzungar
    Dzungar 1 January 2018 17: 44
    +1
    What will the Great Tartarians say ...?
    1. Dimmih
      Dimmih 5 January 2018 17: 12
      0
      The descendants of the gods will depart from the holidays and cast out age-old wisdom on us poor. Venia from Venland and others like him are mammoth riders, arias and other Vedos.
  20. skeptic31
    skeptic31 1 January 2018 23: 54
    +1
    The story begins with an outright horror, which was arranged by Michael and the Tatars, on whom he relied. And it ends with a completely unexpected conclusion that Yuri is to blame for everything, who tried to stop all this horror. Another thing is that Yuri himself was still that peacemaker. In any case, from the author’s point of view, the only bright spot in Mikhail’s activity is his trip to the Khan’s court. Question. Could he not go? Yes, in this case, he would have been dragged there by his own Tatars, who had to pay off the khan for everything that they had done. In any case, a dark story in which the most incomprehensible is the behavior of the clergy who made Michael holy. There is apparently some kind of political game, but not a word about this in the article.
    1. Luga
      Luga 2 January 2018 16: 38
      +1
      Quote: skeptic31
      In any case, from the author’s point of view, the only bright spot in Mikhail’s activity is his trip to the Khan’s court. Question. Could he not go?

      When the Tatars beaten the Tatars Alexander, son of Mikhail, ten years later, he did not go to the horde. As a result - the complete defeat of Tver and the final defeat in the fight against Moscow. Michael went and his death prevented the rout of the principality, giving his sons the opportunity to continue the struggle for power.
  21. gafarovsafar
    gafarovsafar 3 January 2018 12: 22
    0
    you must be attacked all the time, otherwise you will destroy each other, and this cannot be allowed in the name of world peace
    1. Dimmih
      Dimmih 5 January 2018 17: 16
      +2
      Would you like to attack us, for the sake of world peace? So to speak, stand up for the whole universe, stand in line to the Sirat bridge? Or kindly provide this opportunity to others, but will you yourself eat pilaf as usual and wipe your hands on your tummy?
  22. Moskovit
    Moskovit 3 January 2018 12: 24
    0
    It seems to me that this story should be perceived as a general tragedy, and not an occasion to make Tveriches and Muscovites holier than each other.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 3 January 2018 12: 43
      +2
      What's so tragic?
  23. Dimmih
    Dimmih 5 January 2018 17: 09
    0
    Quotation: blooded man
    Quote: Dimmih
    They took tribute from both sides of the conflict.

    Crimean Tatars paid tribute up to Peter I for example, so what?

    And the fact that see my comments, where it is said that the Russian princes were biting, and the Horde helped one side, then the other and took tribute. Is this really incomprehensible to you? Peter the First is here sideways? Under him and his predecessors, the Russian state was integral, and the time-feudal fragmentation described in the article. It seems to you that the meaning of what I wrote to you is incomprehensible.
    1. Dalailama
      Dalailama 6 January 2018 00: 20
      0
      Peter the 1st did what Mamai was going for.
  24. Dzungar
    Dzungar 7 January 2018 09: 24
    0
    Serg Koma,
    Quote: Serg Koma
    Quote: Dzungar
    Tell me about the etymology of my nickname ......?
    You know - share your knowledge with society. After all, you probably studied before you “hang” on yourself, or is it a sonorous word?
    Quote: Dzungar
    You want to tell me this too ...? And you are not that unhappy ...?
    If you assume something, then at least have common sense, but you don’t need to grind a lot of nonsense.

    Apparently you are the very one who tried to classify the Dzhungars as Jews .... You probably would like to repeat it again, but since you were warned about this, you stopped short and asked me to tell you about it ..... I’m from my mother’s blood and my father is a descendant of the Dzungar, and I do not need to study the etymology of this word - I know about this from childhood, with blood. I’m not going to share this with you - you’ll manage, your alleged words about the fact that I really don’t know about the etymology of the words Dzhungar, I will pass by as the flood bark of the mongrel passes from behind the fence. Google to help you. He will help you in finding information about where Oleg Ryazansky and Olgerdovichi were at the time of the Kulikovo battle. Since I do not consider it necessary to prove what everyone knows, only for some reason it is not for you ... All the rest of your petty fuss in opposition I also leave unanswered as insignificant, distracting in vain and unworthy of my answer
    1. Siban
      Siban 7 January 2018 09: 48
      0
      Quote: Dzungar
      I am a descendant of the blood from my mother and father, and I don’t need to study the etymology of this word - I know this from childhood, with blood.
      Zhongar is not tired of flood bully?! You’d better comment on the article: "Dzungarian pogrom: how the last nomad empire broke up"- https://topwar.ru/132051-dzhungarskiy-pogrom-kak-
      raspalas-poslednyaya-imperiya-kochevnikov.html
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar 7 January 2018 20: 00
        0
        It’s immediately clear what the Kazakh says ..... There was a pogrom, but your ancestors have no merit in this. As there is no merit for the one who works on grabbing and running errands for the strong .... It is generally written correctly - ZUNGAR ... Remember .... And now you live in full accordance with a very good correct expression - THE MOST STRONG SURVIVES IN THE WARS .. IN THE WARS THE MOST IMPROVED SURVIVORS
        1. Siban
          Siban 8 January 2018 10: 04
          0
          Quote: Dzungar
          It is generally written correctly - ZUNGAR ... Remember ....
          Oh great spelling teacherhi then why did he designate himself as Dzungarrequest, and not as “ideologically correct” - ZUNGARangry?! Ali with bad memorywassat?
          By the way, I somehow don’t complex when my name is Kazakh, and my country is called Kazakhstan, not Kazakhstan, Almaty - Alma-Ata, Kostanay-Kustanay .. Does anyone have any complexes ..
          Quote: Dzungar
          It’s immediately clear what Kazakh is saying .....
          I didn’t hidebully And by the way, a mentor, demanding from others - why don’t you write yourself correctly? Sweater
          Quote: Dzungar
          There was a pogrom, but your ancestors have no merit in this
          Bring me my quote where I wrote about the merit of my ancestors in the pogromrequest
          Quote: Dzungar
          As there is no merit for the one who works on grabbing and running errands for the strong ....
          Interesting, I’m just reading how someone is struggling. on the catch and on the errands at in Russian .. repeat
          Quote: Dzungar
          And now you live in full accordance with a very good correct expression - NOT THE MOST STRONG SURVIVES IN THE WARS .. THE MOST TENDERFUL SURVIVORS IN THE WAR
          Ok, it turns out according to your statement, if you are alive and your people are alive, then you get - CAMYdrinks?!
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 10 January 2018 07: 44
              0
              I won’t ask you where you saw Dzhungar "traders unfettered" or "clumsy plaster" .. For the simple reason that Dzhungarov NOW IS NOT SUCH SUCH, and if they were, it’s an honor to do such garbage as you said. it’s for you, if only because you’re doing just that now, sprinkling dirty legs in short smoke breaks here ...
          2. Dzungar
            Dzungar 10 January 2018 07: 23
            0
            What, shit .....? What was required to prove .... You are cunning asses, who have served aside in all Asian wars. And once you put a little pressure, how did you get SHUBYRANDY ... Thank you tell my ancestors - ONLY IN THE WAR WITH THE JUNGARS YOU HAVE A NECESSITY TO COMBINE AND CREATE SOMETHING SIMILAR TO THE STATE ... And so it would still be rummaged through the steps .. .. And no one knew about you when the last nomadic empire appeared - Dzungaria
            1. Siban
              Siban 10 January 2018 08: 01
              0
              Quote: Dzungar
              And so would still rummaged through the steppe for childbirth ...
              How would your ancestors not rummaged through the steppe for childbirth ...? Well, and what a shame in wandering around the Great Steppe? Well, now you are rummaging around in the white light, as they say, "not the homeland of the flag," but I’m not your people, I’m not calling your homeland Dzungaria fool
              Quote: Dzungar
              What was required to prove .... You are arthropods, who served aside in all Asian wars
              O great Bagadur Zungar, do you write with XUAR? You are preparing the liberation of your homeland from the Han repeat?! What when "Xinjiang OUR" soldier angry?
              Quote: Dzungar
              And once you put a little pressure, how did you get SHUBYRANDY ...
              Ok, and you’ve got the “Dzungar pogrom”
              Quote: Dzungar
              And no one knew about you when the last nomadic empire appeared - Dzungaria
              No problemlaughing Let now no one has a clue. I do not complex on this. By the way, you can show the great empire - Dzungaria on the modern world map wink?! And then, something I still can’t find it .. request
              Quote: Dzungar
              Thank you, tell my ancestors - ONLY IN THE WAR WITH THE JUNGS YOU HAVE A NECESSITY FOR UNITING AND CREATING SOMETHING LIKE OF THE STATE ..
              Rahmet: Oh burning cold, evil father, thank you. You taught us to make fire. .V. Levy
              Zhongar, but it turns out that YOU, even before the threat of destruction by the cuffs, did NOT APPEAR THE NEED TO UNITY and give an effective rebuff?
              PS. Q.E.D..
              1. Dzungar
                Dzungar 10 January 2018 08: 13
                0
                You appeared on the site apparently with one goal - to confront the hated Jungar, as once your "great ancestors" ...? And nowhere else did he write .... Well, at least it
              2. Dzungar
                Dzungar 10 January 2018 08: 16
                0
                You see how silly you are
                Quote: Siban
                Well, now you are rummaging around in the white light, as they say "not the homeland is not the flag,"

                I have my own land and my flag and homeland IS .... But you do not know and do not want to know. Because you are stupid
              3. Dzungar
                Dzungar 10 January 2018 08: 17
                0
                Quote: Siban
                Ok, and you’ve got the “Dzungar pogrom”

                Neither your ancestors, nor even more so you - DO NOT HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP
              4. Dzungar
                Dzungar 10 January 2018 08: 18
                0
                Quote: Siban
                By the way, can you show the great empire - Dzungaria on a modern world map ?! And then, something I still can’t find it ..

                YOU ARE ALSO CLOWN .....
              5. Dzungar
                Dzungar 10 January 2018 08: 26
                0
                Quote: Siban
                YOU even before the threat of destruction by the cuff did not APPEAR THE NEED TO UNITE and give an effective rebuff?

                Each time after the feudal power arises, then follows the feudal fragmentation, feuds, hostility and internecine wars for supreme power. This is almost the law of the development of societies. I understand that you Kazakhs do not know this, because at the hand of the White Tsar you did not have to go through it anymore - FROM THE GENERAL COMMUNITY STRUCTURE, YOU IMMEDIATELY DISAPPEARED THROUGH ONE STAGE of society. Therefore, you do not understand the reason for the death of Dzungaria. Plus, the Chinese have very well delivered subversive, to use modern language, work among the top of the Dzungaria. And then they did it only after a century of confrontation
          3. Dzungar
            Dzungar 10 January 2018 07: 52
            0
            Quote: Siban
            Interestingly, I’m just reading how someone is engaged in catching up and running errands with Russians ..

            I am much smarter than you, and I understand that we are now in a tight bond with the Russians - it is never denser. And their victory and defeat in this last war also means victory and defeat for me and my people. And yours, by the way, too, no matter how you dreamed about the bright future of Kazakhstan. AND THEREFORE ALL THAT I WRITE HERE - HAS ALREADY COME FROM A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE INEXPENABILITY OF THE DESTINY OF ME AND MY PEOPLE WITH RUSSIA. AND I WRITE ALL THIS HERE, on the basis of this - FOR MYSELF AND FOR ITS FUTURE .... Whether you understood it or not, I won’t ask, it’s only your problem
            1. Siban
              Siban 10 January 2018 08: 34
              0
              Quote: Dzungar
              I have my own Earth and my flag and Motherland IS ...
              Ok yes can you show Dumb Jungaria on the world map ?! Her Flag, Coat of Arms and Anthem.
              Quote: Dzungar
              Neither your ancestors, nor even more so you - DO NOT HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP
              Give me my quote, where did I say that ?!
              Quote: Dzungar
              YOU ARE ALSO CLOWN .....
              This clown at least lives in his own country .. Kazak Eli
              Quote: Dzungar
              I'm much smarter than you
              Well, if it’s easier for you, then consider yourself smarter .. Here on the site, although there are a minority, many of whom I think are much smarter than myself .. The truth is for you ... No. Sparta: "If Alexander considers himself a god, then let him consider himself a god."
              Quote: Dzungar
              we are now in a tight bond with the Russians - it is never denser.
              Well then, in your words, you are the one (quote) - who works on the catch and on the errands of the strong ...
              1. Dzungar
                Dzungar 10 January 2018 09: 17
                0
                Quote: Siban
                This clown at least lives in his own country .. Kazak Eli

                THIS IS EXCLUSIVELY NOT A KAZAKH'S merit ..... They brought it to you on a silver platter, so you didn’t know at first what to do with it
              2. Dzungar
                Dzungar 10 January 2018 09: 23
                0
                Quote: Siban
                Well then, in your words, you are the one (quote) - who works on the catch and on the errands of the strong ...

                Look at my profile picture ... Maybe you should understand something. Well, if you want to think like that - think, everyone is allowed to get worried ..... Although we are part of Russia, we have not run away from it and are not going to. But in order to survive from the expansion of China, you will have to crawl to Russia, humiliatingly asking yourself back .... Then you will be sure to run errands. Although the Russians will forgive you again and be accepted as a brother ... As we are with them now, with the majority. And not with these inhabitants of the madhouse and fans of the sect "the great Scythian Siberians"
                1. Siban
                  Siban 10 January 2018 12: 05
                  +1
                  Quote: Dzungar
                  They brought it to you on a silver platter, so at first you didn’t know what to do with it.
                  Why didn’t you bring it to the saucerlol?! Or didn’t they even deserve a platter?
                  Quote: Dzungar
                  But in order to survive from the expansion of China, you will have to crawl to Russia, humiliatingly asking back ...
                  It turns out according to your words to you - to survive the expansion of China - had crawl to Russia, humiliatingly askingsad?!
                  Quote: Dzungar
                  Look at my profile picture ... Although we are part of Russia, we have not run away from it and are not going to
                  I look at your profile picture and see the Dzungar inscription - something in the Russian Federation I do not see the Dzungar Republic, not the Dzungar Territory, or at least the Dzungar Autonomous Region ..
                  Quote: Dzungar
                  Note - I am not saying and I do not think that I am the smartest here, and especially not saying that "I am God."
                  I’ve written something that you here is the smartest and that "you are a god" fool laughing?!
                  Quote: Dzungar
                  JUNGARIA IS ALIVE - WHERE WE REMEMBER OF HER ..
                  Remember ..
                  Only now you attacked the Kazakhs, and meanwhile, using your terminology sit back while the Chinese tread on the land of your ancestors negative turns cunning here you are (your expression). You say look at your profile picture. Probably batyrs are shown there .. Then why then the great military Dzhungar does not go to free his Earth from the Han .. but only on the Internet he puts up labels: those de cunning asses, they sit aside .. Maybe you’ll show “silly” - the lessons of heroism .. request
                  1. Dzungar
                    Dzungar 10 January 2018 14: 21
                    0
                    Quote: Siban
                    It turns out according to your words to you - in order to survive from the expansion of China - you had to crawl to Russia, humiliatingly asking

                    Dzungaria did not crawl anywhere. She died .... And where I live now - no one suffered from the Chinese expansion. The Russians themselves came here .....
                    Quote: Siban
                    Only now you attacked the Kazakhs,

                    Nobody pounced on the Kazakhs here .... Until one far from the most intelligent of them registered on the site with one purpose - to fight with the hated Dzhungar, so that later grandchildren would poke printouts of these conversations and yell - "See! I am worthy of my ancestors, with the repeatedly superior forces of NOT conquering the Dzungars under either Anrakai or Ayagoz! ... "I also fought with him to death, showing miracles of wit ..." Gyyy .... Leave the site, you have more to fight with " "... I don’t consider it worthy of me to speak with some blah blah blah-shnik who is still complex in its history, and because of this, arranging srach here ....... They were sitting back under the wing of the White Tsar and who escaped the Chinese expansion then, and after that asking idiotic questions. You won’t get away from fate. Then they helped the Chinese. And now it's your turn .....
                    1. Siban
                      Siban 10 January 2018 16: 13
                      0
                      Quote: Dzungar
                      Dzungaria did not crawl anywhere. She died .... And where I live now - no one suffered from the Chinese expansion. The Russians themselves came here ...
                      I used your rhetoric in dialogue with you if I noticed .. recourse Speaking of Kazakhstan, I can also say that where I live now - no one suffered from the Chinese expansion. The Russians themselves came here ..
                      Quote: Dzungar
                      Here, nobody attacks the Kazakhs ....
                      It turns out your expression, I quote -the one who works at the catch and at the errands of the strong ones .., THE MOST Cunning .. who have sat out to the side ... still rummaged around the steppe for childbirth .., crawl to Russia, humiliatingly asking to go back..., - this is not a sketch, then why are you so indignant when they try on you and the Dzungaria request?!
                      Why, if the Dzungar is with Russia, then THIS COMES ALREADY FROM A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE INEINABILITY OF THE DESTINY OF ME AND MY PEOPLE WITH RUSSIA, if Kazakhs, then crawl to Russia, humiliatingly asking belay?! Why, if it concerns you, then we are now in a tight bond with the Russians - it’s never denserif Kazakhs, then abouttsidyatsya under the wing of the White king and escaped this even then the Chinese expansion smile?
                      Quote: Dzungar
                      asking stupid questions.
                      These "idiotic questions" paraphrase your quotes yes..
                      Quote: Dzungar
                      I don’t find it worthy to talk here
                      Do not consider worthy do not talk ..
                      Quote: Dzungar
                      So far, one far from the most intelligent of them has not registered on the site with one purpose - to fight with the hated Jungar
                      I’ve been on this site since 2012 of the year ...
                      Quote: Dzungar
                      still integrating in its history
                      What should I complexrequest I perceive her as she is, without embellishment ..
                      Quote: Dzungar
                      and because of this arranging srach here ...
                      Once again I write - bring me my quotes, where did I arrange srach?
                      Where I allowed myself to use: blah blah blah-shnik, CLOWN .., stupid .., You smart-asses here ... who have been left out on the side .. who work on the catch and run errands for the strong ones .. Staying under the wing ..
                      Quote: Dzungar
                      And now it's your turn ...
                      I got scared straight crying You can name the exact date repeat?! And then we have heard this song for a long timewassat Maybe you’ll finally name the exact date .. otherwise it’s an empty chatter and clickism .. negative I will be grateful..
              3. Dzungar
                Dzungar 10 January 2018 09: 27
                0
                Quote: Siban
                Well, if it’s easier for you, then consider yourself smarter .. Here on the site, although there are a minority, many of whom I think are much smarter than myself .. The truth is for you ...

                Note - I am not saying and I do not think that I am the smartest here, and especially not saying that "I am God." This is all - your pathetic little attempts to impress upon yourself what you yourself would like to see in me. And I only said that "I am smarter than you", if only because I write such silly posts like yours
              4. Dzungar
                Dzungar 10 January 2018 09: 30
                0
                Quote: Siban
                Ok, can you show the stupid on the world map Dzungaria ?! Her Flag, Coat of Arms and Anthem

                JUNGARIA IS ALIVE - WHERE WE REMEMBER OF HER ....
        2. Sasha333
          Sasha333 8 January 2018 21: 04
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          You something the puppy here on a site has unbelted. And the developers of the site do not make you comments. So businesslike. So, we Slavic assesants? Are you brave on the site, but on the street ...? It is unfortunate that our ancestors once long ago allowed foreigners into their territory.
          1. Dzungar
            Dzungar 10 January 2018 07: 16
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            Yes, we probably did wrong that we let you into our territory 400 years ago .... If I’m a puppy, then you are dirt on the coat of this puppy, or what remains after he raised his leg .....
          2. Dzungar
            Dzungar 10 January 2018 07: 29
            0
            Quote: Sasha333
            Are you brave on the site, but on the street ...?

            Throw the address in PM .....
          3. Dzungar
            Dzungar 10 January 2018 07: 34
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            Quote: Sasha333
            So, we Slavic assesants?

            As for your Slavs, I VERY MUCHLY Doubt .... Because ONLY THE ENEMIES OF RUSSIANS AND SLAVS can promote and support this nonsense about "great Scythian-Siberian Russians ... And Russians - Yes, Russians - Great. To survive for centuries in a constant struggle with an external enemy, WITH THE EXTERNAL, and not disappear - CAN ONLY THE GREAT ... BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE ATTITUDE TO THEM .....
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 10 January 2018 07: 38
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              I appeal to the readers of the site, and to those who participate in the discussions. NOW ALREADY IS UNDERSTANDING AND OBVIOUS PURPOSE OF PLACING THIS AND SIMILAR statues. THIS IS DESTRUCTION OF THE HISTORY OF RUSSIA AND RUSSIANS, BREAKING BETWEEN THE PEOPLES OF RUSSIA, KINDING BETWEEN THEM AND BATTLE BETWEEN THEM. WITH THIS SAME, THE PERSONALITY OF THOSE PARTICIPATING IN THE PROMOTION OF THESE ARTICLES AND THE PURPOSES OF THESE ARTICLES BECOMES UNDERSTANDING. TWO OPTIONS are possible here. The first is fools from the composition of the indigenous peoples of Russia, who have pronounced chauvinist and nationalist views, clinging to the opportunity to suddenly become incredibly great, above all, and wipe the ugly pages of the history of their people that are unworthy in their opinion for such a “completely unbelievable great people” from whom he is an. The second option - THIS IS COMPLETELY CLEAR THAT THEY ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVES OF THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES OF RUSSIA, AND THEIR ACTIONS SHOULD BE UNDERSTANDED AS AN UNDERGROUND WORK AMONG THE POPULATION OF RUSSIA FOR THE FOLLOWING STARTED. it is quite understandable and constantly observed by us in the modern political life of the country, when for some reason Russian nationalists are led by representatives of a completely different people who are not the indigenous people of Russia. You can say about another category of people involved in promoting these crazy ideas present in this and other similar articles. THESE THOSE THOSE THERE WORKS FOR A BOARD, FOR 30 SILVER, WHILE IS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OF RUSSIA, THIS IS A TRAITOR OF ITS PEOPLE, AND ITS ACTIONS ARE MUCH MORE VIRIDER THAN THOSE WHO ABOUT ABOVE What category do you consider yourself to be ......?
            2. Sasha333
              Sasha333 11 January 2018 14: 00
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              Who are you? Do you have a degree or are you a doctor of sciences. Why is your opinion this is the truth. Do you have authority? Why on the site everyone should listen only to you and your opinion. You have megalomania. But I don’t understand another thing: where did you get that I treat other nations badly. You just don't like the other opinion. I took my knowledge not from scratch. We still have ancient books that speak of a completely different story. It is simply not possible to come up with the lectures that I listened to, the material is very voluminous. And Russians are great for bringing light to people. But lately (1000 years) there have been a lot of attacks on us. Yes, such that at the time to survive ourselves. Below, you slander me. It is people like you who are dangerous. I wanted to stop writing anymore, but I saw ... Yes, and if you continue to insult the demolitionist, I’ll probably sue your website. What do you allow yourself?
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              1. Sasha333
                Sasha333 11 January 2018 14: 07
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                The comment was deleted below. Didn’t like it? I read it. You are the enemies.
                1. Dzungar
                  Dzungar 13 January 2018 21: 35
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                  The third time I say - throw your address here or in PM. You wanted to see me on the street ...
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  26. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 9 January 2018 14: 17
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    All the same, how much evil this civil war in Russia brought ..... perhaps Batu could not have conquered Russia